Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys, I've just got the IG battleforce and with it my first HWTs. With my army planned to be mainly infantry platoons supported by these and veterans, I was wondering which was the best all round, or for a specific role.

Autocannons are always an easy pick, but if I was doing my HWT's again, I'd make sure not to glue them so I could swap out the weapons as needed. Just remember to specialise them, don't mix and match, they're either for anti tank, or anti infantry! That being said, I don't use them that much anymore!

I would use them in PIS as either lascannons or auto cannons.

Are mortars any good or are they completely useless?

At best, they extend the wound allocation range for an infantry squad you stick them in -- but only if you don't move the HWT, since mortars can't snap fire.

They're not completely useless, but they're pretty darn close. And they're certainly not cost effective.

 Banzaimash wrote:
Are mortars any good or are they completely useless?

Mortars are very, very, very good when you can hide a home objective, in your deployment zone, out of LOS. You now have at least 1 Victory Point from the start to the finish of the game(assuming you protect them or threaten your enemies points) locked down, the unit also does add a Multiple barrage firing at the enemy units for very few points per squad.

I would never field them on either PIS or Vet Squads.

Autocannons or las cannons are the competitive choices. After a lot of time with both, I'd go for the las cannon every time.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Autocannons or las cannons are the competitive choices. After a lot of time with both, I'd go for the las cannon every time.

until you face pretty much any enemy who will have more than 1 Str 6+, AP5- shots available to a single unit, which your 3, Scoring, T3, Save 5+, Ld 7 Models will be Prime targets for

I was thinking that, especially against my bro's Deathwing, which all have ACs.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Autocannons or las cannons are the competitive choices. After a lot of time with both, I'd go for the las cannon every time.

until you face pretty much any enemy who will have more than 1 Str 6+, AP5- shots available to a single unit, which your 3, Scoring, T3, Save 5+, Ld 7 Models will be Prime targets for

When they're stuck in the middle of a mass of infantry squads? Not that scary.

I was actually planning to have them separate, so my normal infantry could move forward without having to fire a HW and deal with losing a whole squad's shooting in an attempt to take out a vehicle.

 Talore wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Autocannons or las cannons are the competitive choices. After a lot of time with both, I'd go for the las cannon every time.

until you face pretty much any enemy who will have more than 1 Str 6+, AP5- shots available to a single unit, which your 3, Scoring, T3, Save 5+, Ld 7 Models will be Prime targets for

When they're stuck in the middle of a mass of infantry squads? Not that scary.

True, but OP was asking more about HWSs.

I personally use Gunline Platoons with no HWS support due to the huge amounts of Str 6+ AP5or< weapons out there. The only HWS I would field is Mortars(hidden out of LOS).

Do not use heavy weapon squads. Just stick a heavy weapon team in an infantry squad or a vet squad and that is honestly your best choice. I have play tested both ways and HWS's at the moment are garbage. 1 s6 shot kills a whole base which makes the squad role for leadership, and with LD7 they are guaranteed to fail half the time. I prefer infantry squads with heavy weapon teams as standard guardsmen can soak up shots.

As others have said, Autocannons and lascannons are the go to route.

A banner goes a long way to keep them fighting, but they die as easily as any guard.

As said, either autocannons or lascannons, just don't glue the gun to the tripod and make sure you place the sandbags on the left so that you can put the lascannon's charge pack without any trouble.

I use a 3 mortar team, it's the cheapest, can fire without exposing itself and can keep an objective controlled without having to 'loose' one of your more mobile infantry squads. Pinning is a nice plus, but being str4 AP6, most everything got an armour save before the Ld test. Still it got it's uses, since it is barrage, cover is rolled form the center of the blast, so you can manage to negate some cover values, not to mention take out specialized troops in a mob.

Anything that can't reliably handle monstrous creatures, TEq and, to a lesser extent, heavy armor, isn't all that worth taking anymore. This means that you have the choice of lascannons and a bunch of crappy weapons that handle rather narrow roles that generally compete with the free lasguns and heavy bolters guard armies field everywhere.

Lascannons are expensive, but you get what you pay for. Everything else is cheap, but you get what you pay for.

Death Korps can get good use out of heavy weapon teams, since they won't run away, and their lascannons are cheaper.

I am very hopeful for heavy weapon teams in the new book. March, is it?

What not to use, mortars. Completely useless.

I would not field in heavy weapon squads, but, if you do, make sure you have a Lord Commissar nearby to keep your HWT in place. I find it better to run heavy weapons in infantry squads, CCS, and Vets.

Autocannon: Cheap upgrade, 2 shots, great range, high strength are what make it good. AP4, well, that is the down side.

Lascannon: High Stregnth, Low AP, Long range. Cost more, one shot. Works best in CCS where it can recieve its own order "bring it down".

Heavy Bolter: 3 shots, decent stregnth, cheap. AP4 (i believe). It is a good anti horde.

Mortars: Cheap. that is it.

Missile launchers: Great all around, frag or krak. can take out hordes or tanks.

I go auto cannon most of the time, maybe missile launchers on a vet squad. Las cannon in CCS if I am not running 4 plasma.

 martin74 wrote:
Lascannon: High Stregnth, Low AP, Long range. Cost more, one shot. Works best in CCS where it can recieve its own order "bring it down".

Using BiD on a single CCS lascannon is a horrible waste, unless you have nothing else left alive to give it to. A CCS is already BS 4 so twin-linking it doesn't add as much firepower as it would on a BS 3 unit, and a combined squad or HWS with 3+ lascannons is a much better use of an order than a single lascannon.

Missile launchers: Great all around, frag or krak. can take out hordes or tanks.

Can in theory take out hordes or tanks, but isn't good at either. Single BS 3 krak missiles aren't very good against vehicles, and frag missiles aren't really much better than the lasguns they replace unless your opponent sucks at spacing and bunches up in perfect template formation. And the worst part is you pay almost as many points for a ML as you do for a LC, and the LC is a much better weapon.

 Peregrine wrote:

 martin74 wrote:
Lascannon: High Stregnth, Low AP, Long range. Cost more, one shot. Works best in CCS where it can recieve its own order "bring it down".

Using BiD on a single CCS lascannon is a horrible waste, unless you have nothing else left alive to give it to. A CCS is already BS 4 so twin-linking it doesn't add as much firepower as it would on a BS 3 unit, and a combined squad or HWS with 3+ lascannons is a much better use of an order than a single lascannon.

Unless you have a master of ordnance and an icarus lascannon for the commander. Orders on Ld7 HWSs is probably a waste.

Missile launchers: Great all around, frag or krak. can take out hordes or tanks.

I agree this is foolishness. Anyone advocating missile launchers for IG doesn't play IG and/or is a damned idiot.

Not saying missile launchers are great, just not near what one needs for the IG. Auto cannon or Lascannon is about the only way to go.

If I had to rank the options:

1/2. Lascannon/autocannon: these two are toss ups.
3. Heavy bolter
4. Missile Launcher
5. Mortars.

 Omegus wrote:

Missile launchers: Great all around, frag or krak. can take out hordes or tanks.

I agree this is foolishness. Anyone advocating missile launchers for IG doesn't play IG and/or is a damned idiot.

Oh, now, that's a bit harsh, don't you think?

It's not a weapon I'd build a list around, true, but if I've got five points and a heavy weapons team lying around, it's certainly something I'd consider for an upgrade. A little flexibility isn't a bad thing and the ability to ID tyranid warriors warms my bug-hunting heart so...

I've had lots of success with multiple mortar heavy weapon teams. Our gaming group plays with lots of terrain, and has a lot of armies heavy in ork boyz, cultists and similar lightly-armoured troops.

The big advantage of them is that you can shoot without being seen. Being able to shoot out of line of sight and ignore things like aegis defence line cover saves is very useful for picking on cheap troops hiding on objectives, or otherwise making a nuisance of yourself. Since guard armies tend to use up a lot of the board, having something that can make use of deployment areas that keep you boxed in and unable to see is handy.

Pinning's a nice little bonus for the mortar, too. Not always useful, but if you're playing a mixed group (rather than lots of marines), you may do well with mortars.

 martin74 wrote:
What not to use, mortars. Completely useless.

I would not field in heavy weapon squads, but, if you do, make sure you have a Lord Commissar nearby to keep your HWT in place. I find it better to run heavy weapons in infantry squads, CCS, and Vets.

Mortars are far from useless, they are the only weapon worth taking in a HWSthey are only ever "useless" when you are playing "the battle for parking lot C" or in a complete forest environment.

But you should have plenty of LOS blocking terrain and terrain that provides cover in a single direction; where the mortar excells in Teams(barrage/ multiple barrage).

Now I would never take a single mortar, and I am more likely to take other Heavy weapons in my 2-3 PIS Blobs(Heavy bolter, Lascannon, or AC); but that is just because the other heavies are better in those squads.

Mortars certainly do have some merit, essentially acting as easy-to-hide mini-artillery. The ability to deploy them out of LOS with no real drawback is a good counter to their weakness to First Blood, Ld issues and S6+. Yes, they'll still get hit by some stuff, but far far less than weapons that rely on LOS. They are also very cheap so no that much of a loss if you do lose them.

On the whole, though, I'd make sure any infantry squad that you don't intend to advance with has a HW in it before adding dedicated HWTs to the list. What you lose in firepower for the points by using them in Infantry Squads, you gain in durability, better Ld, more ablative wounds and greater versatility.

Omegus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 martin74 wrote:
Lascannon: High Stregnth, Low AP, Long range. Cost more, one shot. Works best in CCS where it can recieve its own order "bring it down".

Using BiD on a single CCS lascannon is a horrible waste, unless you have nothing else left alive to give it to. A CCS is already BS 4 so twin-linking it doesn't add as much firepower as it would on a BS 3 unit, and a combined squad or HWS with 3+ lascannons is a much better use of an order than a single lascannon.

Unless you have a master of ordnance and an icarus lascannon for the commander. Orders on Ld7 HWSs is probably a waste.

Missile launchers: Great all around, frag or krak. can take out hordes or tanks.

I agree this is foolishness. Anyone advocating missile launchers for IG doesn't play IG and/or is a damned idiot.

I'd be more inclined to call someone making such harsh, dogmatic, and sweeping generalizations a 'damned idiot.' There's no reason to insult people like that simply because they have a differing opinion on a single item in a tabletop wargame.

With respect to the HWTs I intend to use them in squads and give fire support to my PISs. My main opponents are DW (lots of AC) and Tau FW gunline. As such I'm wary of using a LC team, as it would have to expose itself to fire. I'm not closed to the idea, but I need a way of making them survivable beyond simply preventing them from running. Also with regard to mortar teams, how many do you reckon are needed in a force that as yet has no armour besides a Chimera, to be effective.

 Banzaimash wrote:
As such I'm wary of using a LC team, as it would have to expose itself to fire.

Why? What's the point in keeping a mortar team alive when it isn't contributing anything? You're better off getting one turn of shooting with a good weapon.

Also with regard to mortar teams, how many do you reckon are needed in a force that as yet has no armour besides a Chimera, to be effective.

Zero. The most effective use of mortars is not taking them at all.

Here is a vid from Mini War Gamer batrep showing the effect of massed mortar fire, used in way that nearly every poster has said was bad.
Note there are two parts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjMJhM5mrk
Pick the right targets (troops) and they are gresdt

I run HWSs, the number depending on the size of the game. I run Creed and a Lord Commissar and a ADL. I place the HWSs to be with in 6" for the Lord Commissar for his 'Aura of Discipline' because they are then Ld 10 for Morale, Pinning, and for Orders. You have to place your HWSs in cover (or out of LoS if mortars) because they need a cover save to stay alive. Creed allows me to give 4 units Orders (including a bunch of HWSs) to make them more effective. I find this makes my HWTs very effective and a lot more survivable (because they are difficult to break now).

As for weapon utility, I am another who says Las Cannons and Auto Cannons as the best two. But I honestly think out of the last 3, I think massed mortar fire is the 3rd best weapon. I also think the ML is dog food for the points your paying as the AC is cheaper and has 2 shots to fire on the same targets as the ML does (light vehicles and troops). And even when they give them flack in the new codex (because every ML has getting Flakk Missiles), they will /really/ be to expensive. ML would be #4 on my list with Heavy Bolters as last (just because every vehicle gets them standard).

Enjoy!

Also with regard to mortar teams, how many do you reckon are needed in a force that as yet has no armour besides a Chimera, to be effective.

It's quite difficult to answer that. As a general rule, as lots of people have said, autocannons and lascannons tend to be the optimal choices for killing things.

However, the effectiveness of your heavy weapon teams – and the choice of weapon – is highly dependent on the sort of armies you'll be facing, and what's in the rest of the army.

Personally, I regularly use two mortar teams in concert with a heavy bolter team. Note that we play in a very high infantry, low armour environment – lots of orks and eldar etc. 160pts for two mortar teams, which can both set up safely out of sight near a home objective and spend the whole game making a nuisance of themselves, are points well spent to me.

I find mortars especially good against Tau, as their LD is poor (increasing the chance of pinning) , and crucially, they can target suits that have popped behind cover; something that other heavy weapon teams can struggle against.

Mortar teams are unusual in that their main effectiveness is not so much from direct damage caused (like autocannons and lascannons), nor in the ability to close down firelanes (like the direct fire weapons), but in the fact your opponent cannot target them directly, and the unusual abilities they have – pinning and indirect fire.

I wouldn't build an army around them, but they synergise well with sanctioned psyker squads (for the LD reduction) and large numbers of direct fire tanks (which distract the enemy from targetting the squishy mortars and can be used to physically screen them).

However, if you play in an environment with:
a ) Little cover
b ) Many flyers
c ) low infantry numbers
d ) high T, good save infantry
e) high LD infantry

You might be better off with the more common weapons, or using a Griffon or two. These light tanks have all the same advantages but on a sturdier chassis and at a better S.