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Yes I hear the groan among the more sensible (or boring ) members of Dakka. Nagash probably shouldn't ever become a character with rules but hey if he ever did this is my interpretation. I have kept the level of power that i believe should be inherit to a character of his stature (semi god) but attempted to keep it as balanced as possible:
Nagash: The Undying king, the Great Necromancer
M-5
WS-7
BS-5
S-5 (6)
T-5 (6)
W-5
I-5
A-5
LD-10
Equipment: The Crown of sorcery, Mortis the great blade, the black armour, the ninth book of Nagash,
Special rules: Lv 4 wizard he knows all the spells in the law of vampires, undead, infinite hatred, terror, Nagash must be your general and counts as all of your lord and hero choices.
The crown of sorcery: Nagash generates 5 power dice and 3 dispel dice, additionally he may cast the same spell multiple times in the same magic phase
The Ninth book of Nagash: with each spell that creates new models Nagash adds D6 to the number created. Additionally all undead units lose 1 less model due to combat resolution.
The Black Armour: grants Nagash a 4+ amour save and a 4 + ward save and grants magic resistance 2.
Mortis: adds +1 to Nagash's strength and for every model Nagash kills on a 4+ a new skeleton or zombie is created and joins his unit.
If i remember my 5th.ed thats about the same numbers/rules or something like it. I think.he had a 3+ ward vs anything including that which.doesnt normally offer saves. Would you put him in vamps or.kings?
Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick
Cannon Bait. He shifts from OP (Crown of Sorcery) to ridiculously bad (Takes all of hero AND lord points, and only knowing Vampires). His stat's aren't really to to snuff, he should either be S/T 7 OR have the ability to join units. I am assuming he is a monster from the stat-line and likening to a GD as you haven't stated what type he is. Nagash should know all of the lore of Vampires in addition to rolling 4 dice on ore of death, should be able to cast invocation more then once but no other spell. I like the sword but I agree he needs a 3+ Ward against no magic weapons, much like Melakith.
Maybe you should aim to get him in as around 700pts, that way he is MASSIVE and can only be played in big matches. but you can justify very powerful rules.
I think you need to look at HE Teclis and Doc Khairos.
Teclis is probably the greatest mortal wizard in the WHFB. Khairos is the greatest immortal wizard, the right hand of the god of magic himself. Look at DE Maleketh, who has just about everything and had access to nearly all artifacts since the game world existed
I think it's fine to have Nagash in game. But he's simply not going to be that powerful. Or anywhere remotely close.
It wouldn't even be fun to play him.
One thing I think of using as a theme is, sacrificing wounds, as per shooting, of the model he is in, to generate 1pd and 1dd. Like D3 each attempt. That's a necromancy thing to do. And he was kind of a jerk.
Make him a native lvl 5 caster. Loremaster.
Make the book have some limited protection against miscasts. Again, add some flavor.
Nagash is at least on a par with Teclis and Karios for magic power since he is pretty much 100% magic other wise he would be just dust. immune to all but the most powerful magical weapons and corrupt beyond even most daemon levels fluff wise.
Teclis - powerful magic, weak in a fight must hide behind others (hence having a tough as nails bro) or would be stuffed in reality on his own
Karios - powerful magic, weak in a fight but cant really hide in battles so being typically tzeentch likes to use tricks to persuade others do the dirty work and sit back and watch
Nagash - powerful magic, cant say if he is supposed to be a beast in combat fluff has him getting smite-ed a lot. Like Karios he is a fan of sitting back and letting others fight for him except instead of tricks he just needs a corpse.
My take on a modern Nagash would be.
He is a monstrous creature like Karios but his presence on the battle field should be dictated by the battle itself. The more death around him there is the more powerful he is whilst in his ascendancy he is a true monster and totally OP but if the battle is not going so well or he is being over used magic wise he becomes drained. This could be done numerous ways, i like the thought of some sort of soul counter idea. I also like the idea of magical weapons being some sort of anathema to him meaning its important to keep him out of reach of other characters (His ratio of wins vs other characters is very poor) .l
thedarkavenger wrote: I think Nagash should have loremaster on LoVampires, LoNehekhara and have access to LoDeath as a level 4.
He shouldn't be a combat monster as he never fought on the forefront. He just smote stuff with magic. He should be able to hold his own.
Again, miscast protection! A character like this needs it.
Fluff-wise, he's a normal man with massive power. Make him infantry. But give him the ability to roll a die, and on a 6 he sacrifices another model,
He did in fact in two occasions fight on the battle field. Once inside Marak and the other time he led the assault when he fought a series of battles agains the invading Skaven. I feel he should still be dam good in combat. For gods sakes the guy was destroying Sigmar in a duel. Admittedly Sigmar one in the end but I can't help but feel it was luck. He was getting his ass handed to him. As for size he is described (I can't remember exactly) as monstrously tall on several occasions in God King. As in literally towering above the tallest man by a long way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kranki wrote: Nagash is at least on a par with Teclis and Karios for magic power since he is pretty much 100% magic other wise he would be just dust. immune to all but the most powerful magical weapons and corrupt beyond even most daemon levels fluff wise.
Teclis - powerful magic, weak in a fight must hide behind others (hence having a tough as nails bro) or would be stuffed in reality on his own
Karios - powerful magic, weak in a fight but cant really hide in battles so being typically tzeentch likes to use tricks to persuade others do the dirty work and sit back and watch
Nagash - powerful magic, cant say if he is supposed to be a beast in combat fluff has him getting smite-ed a lot. Like Karios he is a fan of sitting back and letting others fight for him except instead of tricks he just needs a corpse.
My take on a modern Nagash would be.
He is a monstrous creature like Karios but his presence on the battle field should be dictated by the battle itself. The more death around him there is the more powerful he is whilst in his ascendancy he is a true monster and totally OP but if the battle is not going so well or he is being over used magic wise he becomes drained. This could be done numerous ways, i like the thought of some sort of soul counter idea. I also like the idea of magical weapons being some sort of anathema to him meaning its important to keep him out of reach of other characters (His ratio of wins vs other characters is very poor) .l
Haha yeah. He lost to Sigmar and Alcadizzar, at least he beat the skaven warlord though
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/02 01:31:02
Having him count as all your lord and hero choices is ridiculous.
The crown of sorcery basically means you will have 12 power dice 9/10 times. Considering he is intended as a magic beast this is fine, but it has the potential to be utterly game wrecking on any turn in which the winds of magic roll two low numbers.
The Mortis blades ability to raise skeletons or zombies is cool in theory but in game either won't work or will work against him. The blade can't raise skeletons or zombies unless he is already in a unit of them, but there's literally no reason why you'd want him in a unit of either. It lowers his mobility, doesn't provide him any protection in the form of LOS (as I can only assume he is categorized as a monster) and will provide easy combat resolution against him if other units do reach him.
In a way I guess this is kinda fluffy, as his own power can be used against him and it acts as a kind of Achilles heel. But if I'm paying my entire character allocation for such a massive weakness then it's hard to justify, even in a casual setting.
He was a human. He's clearly not monstrous anything. Vampires aren't monstrous. If you made him some giant Khairos he wouldn't be able to read his old books or use his old equipment, they would be twigs. It would be really silly. His sword of coolness would be a toothpick.
He is extremely young compared to Teclis, who was taught magic by those who created all the races in existence. Including Nagash.
Khairos isn't really there game-wise, but it's really really difficult to imagine anyone being better at magic than him fluff-wise. However cool Nagash thinks he is, he merely wields the winds coming that Khairos is actually created from--that emanate from his home plane--that come directly from his master. Nagash being destroyed is a big deal. Khairos being destroyed isn't. Khairos can never be destroyed. Khairos knows...wait for it...everything that ever was and ever will be!!!! Not even the God of Magic knows that.
I'm reminded of the movie/comic book Watchmen. When Ozymandius "fights" Dr. Manhattan.
Exposure to warpstone turned him into a gargantuan skeleton. His old model is a huge skeleton. He has stats that suggest he is at very least monstrous in stature. I don't think these rules represent nagash as the necromancer that was driven from Khemri but rather the warpstone influenced monstrosity that created Nagashizzar.
Nagash isn't a vampire either.
There's a million ways you could justify a monstrous version of nagash having sufficiently sized items. It's a fantasy game, so a creative license is well and truly justifiable.
Then he wouldn't be able to join any units other than varghulfs and get a los. He wouldn't want to be monstrous in stature. Skaven eat warpstone and it doesn't make them monstrous in stature.
DukeRustfield wrote: Then he wouldn't be able to join any units other than varghulfs and get a los. He wouldn't want to be monstrous in stature.
Agreed, I touched on that in my initial post. But like I said these rules are designed to represent Nagash as the huge skeleton like thing he became as a result of warpstone influence in cripple peak where he established Nagashizzar.
DukeRustfield wrote: Skaven eat warpstone and it doesn't make them monstrous in stature.
Thats like comparing humans to fish and saying that fish live underwater and don't drown, therefore humans should do the same. Skaven are mutated by warpstone as well, but in the case of your typical shaven that mutation may take a very different form to that of a human. It may have very different effects on them than it does on humans due to their unique physiology or any other number of reasons. Besides I'm fairly sure warpstone has something to do with the creation of Rat Ogres…
If we are creating rules for an early Nagash in which he was a regular (albeit, very powerful) human sized necromancer then you are quite right, he shouldn't be monstrous. But I don't think thats what the OP is going for.
Just skeletal bones getting really big cuz of warpstone seems kinda goofy to me. He should have gigantic feet cuz they were closer to the warpstone. And a little head. So look like a pear.
Just skeletal bones getting really big cuz of warpstone seems kinda goofy to me. He should have gigantic feet cuz they were closer to the warpstone. And a little head. So look like a pear.
) members of Dakka. Nagash probably shouldn't ever become a character with rules but hey if he ever did this is my interpretation. I have kept the level of power that i believe should be inherit to a character of his stature (semi god) but attempted to keep it as balanced as possible:
exalt