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Hi all. A few friends and I who have been playing 40k for about 15 years have decided to pick up warmahorde armies. We've been playing for a few weeks and have to say we absolutely love the game. It's not that we're going to leave 40k forever, but it is a nice break and a different style. Having said that, there are a few rules we're having a hard time getting our heads wrapped around. We've tried to tease out the mechanics and use some house rules on how to handle some stuff, but it's time we ask the community at large how some of these rules go. Please excuse my ignorance.

1) Blast and AOE weapons: how does these work, exactly? What we're doing is placing the AOE so the direction is the direction of the attack, rolling RAT against DEF, and if it's a direct hit, fine... but if it's not a direct hit, what happens? We assume that you roll a D6 and the models under that direction of the template suffer halfPow damage. If it does deviate, how far does the deviation go? Is there a distance attributed to that? Is it half the range of the attack? And is it the same for all iterations of AOE attacks (aside from Magic AoE, which is focus/fury + 2d6 instead of RAT)?

2) Do Warjacks carry over Focus into ensuing turns if they are unused (and what does unused mean exactly - does the allocation of a focus imply that it has been used, or is it only used once you make use of it, such as running or charging)? Same with Warbeasts. Are they only lost if you leach them (and yes you threshhold check) but if you pass, do you keep the fury there? Or do you lose it and start anew?

3) If you are engaged in melee and are knocked down (such as the Menoth feat), are the enemy models you were engaged with allowed to charge and act freely as if you were not there, moving, running, casting, meleeing, or charging units in your backline? Also, are there any general rules applied to HWJacks or HWBeasts that state they cannot be knocked down?

4) Is command range of a trooper unit or WC/WL a constant thing? Or is it only checked at the beginning of your movement. For example, if you move your trooper-leader far enough so that a few units are left out of coherency, are they then unable to preform normal actions and must move directly to the commander, or since the whole unit is activated, they complete their actions as normal as long as they wind up in coherency with the commander?

5) Are spells considered combat actions, so that a WM army starts with Generating Focus, Allocating, Activating Units, and when the WC is activated, s/he can Move -> Cast -> Feat (if so desired) and that would end the turn?

Again, I apologize for the elementary nature of these questions. We've tried reading the book and QS guides, but I think we're carrying over habits from 40k that we need to get over. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Also, are there any great links or instructional videos that someone can reccomend? We've watched Miniwargamings, but need more!


Edit: Words are hard.

1)

Determine if the attack hits. To do this check if it's in range, and do the normal to hit-procedures.
If the attack hits, place the AoE Centered on the target model. That model is "directly hit" and takes a normal damage roll. Other models under the AOE are "hit" and take a blast damage roll with a POW equal to 1/2 the normal power of the attack.

If the attack misses, and was in range place the AoE template centered on the model with the the "1" aligned with the line directly between the attacking and model and the target. Roll 1d6, this is the direction the template goes. Roll 1d6, this is the number of inches the template goes, to a maximum of 1/2 the distance between the attacker and target.

If the attack misses because it was out of range, place the AoE at the end of weapons range, but otherwise follow the procedure for missing the target due a low attack roll.

2) Focus is not carried over. It is removed in the maintenance phase at the start of the turn, before checking for continuous effects. Fury remains on a beast until leached, unless that beast frenzies in which case it is removed automatically.

3) Engaging never stops from moving or charging. You simply take a free strike when you move out of melee, you moves must still be legal. Being knocked down does not allow other models to move through the knocked down model, they occupy space as normal. Warjacks/Warbeasts can be knocked down as any other model, unless they have a specific rule stating otherwise.

5) Warcasters/Warlocks casting spells are in their own category and don't count as actions. You can do them before moving, after moving, before or after taking your action or making an attack. You can't do it in the same turn you run.



I don't know the details on 4, but generally so long as you start/end your turn in command range you're fine. This probably has nuances I'm missing.

In general, things in WM/H do precisely what they say on the card and in the rulebook, nothing more nothing else. For example you can't move through knocked down models, because nothing says you can.



EDIT: All these statements should be qualified with "Unless a specific rule on a model or effect says otherwise..."

1. specified in the book: pick a model to target. check range. If in range roll to hit. If not in range place a marker pointing directly toward the target at the range of the weapon. Either way if you miss or not in range you roll 1d6 for scatter direction and 1d6 for scatter distance. The template center will move d6" in the rolled direction, with a limit that it can not scatter more than half the range (to the target, not the range of the weapon. So it's possible that a template will "auto hit" when you're close enough because it physically can't move far enough to scatter off the intended target).

At any rate, if you successfully match defense on the primary target then the target model is "directly hit" and any other models under the template are "hit". If it scatters then any models under the template are "hit". The model directly hit can also have other effects depending on what the AoE you are placing says. An example of a weird one would be Irusk's air burst spell, which says every model hit takes a POW (8 i think) blast damage roll. You just see where the template ends up, then everybody below it takes a damage roll of 2d6+8 (unless you boost it), unless the model is immune to blast damage.

2. No. unless the model specifically has a rule saying it doesn't, all the focus is cleared off the board at the start of your turn, then an amount equal to the warcaster's FOC stat is given to them, which they can allocate to their jacks.

Fury is a little more complicated. It stays on beasts between rounds and they can get angry if they fail a frenzy check. A warlock can however dump any amount of fury off themselves at the end of their activation and that fury just goes away.

3. no rules that prevent something from being knocked down unless it specifically says it can't be. Also knocked down models lose their melee range and can not engage or be engaged, so effectively no free strikes or target in melee penalty. That said, you still can't move right over their base.

4. I'm almost 100% certain that as long as the unit is all within command range at the end of its activation you're fine. I'm not sure about this though so someone else will have to take this one.

5. spells can be cast any time just like dropping a feat. Theoretically you could activate warcaster, cast a spell, pop your feat, declare a charge target, move towards the target as the charge rules indicate, cast another spell, resolve the charge attack, then (assuming it was a successful charge) cast another spell, then buy some attacks all in the same turn (of course this assumes you had enough focus to actually sustain all those spells/attacks).

Also warcasters don't need to spend focus to charge or run. Only warjacks or warbeasts do.

Hey, welcome to the game, here's a few answers to help you Where I use CAPS, I don't mean to yell, just using it to show defined game terms.

1) Blast weapons. Roll to hit normally - if it hits, the model targeted is DIRECTLY HIT and takes a full POW hit, any other models under the template take BLAST DAMAGE. Blast damage is half the POW of the shot, rounded up (so a POW 15 gun does POW 8 blast damage).

If you miss with a blast, you line up the template with the 1 pointing in the direction of travel, and roll a dice - it scatters in that direction, d6", up to a maximum of half the distance it was shot (so if you shoot it from 8" away, the shot can scatter a maximum of 4"). All models under the AOE at that point take BLAST DAMAGE only (no one takes full damage). You'll notice that means blast is generally quite low powered - that's correct, it's mostly for killing infantry, jacks usually laugh at most blast damage.

2) All focus is removed from models at the beginning of the turn, the maintenance phase. That's from Jacks, and your caster as well. This also means that your caster loses his/her focus before rolling for fire continuous effects - that's why fire can be very dangerous to them

Fury is different, fury is not lost. Warbeasts that have fury left on them take a FRENZY test, and if they pass, they keep the fury (but don't go crazy). If they do frenzy, you can remove any amount of fury from them after they do. Warlocks can also discard fury during their activation.

3) Yes, a knocked down model doesn't have a melee range, so you can freely walk around them without taking free strikes, and they can't engage or be engaged in melee, which means that there's no melee penalty for shooting near them, and Arc Nodes can channel while near them, *but they can still be attacked in melee of course*.

There are no rules preventing heavy jacks/beasts from being knocked down, but there are rules to stop Colossals/Gargantuans from being knocked down.

4) CMD for a unit is checked at the beginning of a turn (people out can only run/walk towards your leader), at the end of the turn (people out have to take a CMD check or flee) and during the turn (people outside CMD cannot attack, but if they started the units activation within CMD, they can move normally into CMD range, and then attack). So a leader can happily move up first and attack, then other models that started in CMD can happily move up and attack even if they were out of CMD after the leader moved (as long as they're within CMD when they attack, of course).

5) Spells do not have to be cast during your combat action. Spells can be cast before movement, after movement, before or after any attack or action, but not DURING movement (so you can't move 3", cast, and move back) or During an attack or action (so no waiting to see if you hit before casting a damage buff). Spells cannot, however, be cast in a turn that the caster runs (so no running after casting, charging is OK). Feats are the same - any time except during a movement or attack, and can't be used in the same turn you run.

Just remember, this is a much more fluid game than 40k - there is no getting locked in combat, or locked, you can simply walk past or around enemies (if you don't mind taking a free strike), or reposition yourself. It takes a bit of getting used to, but it's very liberating when it sinks in

Edit: Ha! Took so long answering, got ninja'd twice

Wow. Thank you all. That clears up a ton of stuff. I personally was under the assumption that a Feat automatically ends the activation of the warlock/warcaster when used, but glad to see that's not the case (not sure where I picked that up now that I think about it...). I also did not know that a knocked down unit prevented an enemy model from charging through - I thought that as long as the model had the movement distance, he could make the charge right over the knocked down units.

Thanks again. I'm sure I'll make another thread in a few weeks with some more questions, but this should set us straight for a while.

 Maddermax wrote:

4) CMD for a unit is checked at the beginning of a turn (people out can only run/walk towards your leader), at the end of the turn (people out have to take a CMD check or flee) and during the turn (people outside CMD cannot attack, but if they started the units activation within CMD, they can move normally into CMD range, and then attack). So a leader can happily move up first and attack, then other models that started in CMD can happily move up and attack even if they were out of CMD after the leader moved (as long as they're within CMD when they attack, of course).

Unit activation isn't handled like that.

First the whole unit moves, then when everyone has finished moving, the whole unit takes their action.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Maddermax wrote:

4) CMD for a unit is checked at the beginning of a turn (people out can only run/walk towards your leader), at the end of the turn (people out have to take a CMD check or flee) and during the turn (people outside CMD cannot attack, but if they started the units activation within CMD, they can move normally into CMD range, and then attack). So a leader can happily move up first and attack, then other models that started in CMD can happily move up and attack even if they were out of CMD after the leader moved (as long as they're within CMD when they attack, of course).

Unit activation isn't handled like that.

First the whole unit moves, then when everyone has finished moving, the whole unit takes their action.

Bah, and this is why I shouldn't answer questions at 2am after writing a paper all night Yes, whole unit moves together first, then goes through their activations.

Thanks for the clarification Phantom and Madder. If nothing else, it's a subtle reminder that the game flow is different from 40k in terms of movement, shooting phases, etc, and really does open a whole ton of tactical decisions that are otherwise absent.

One thing I would point out for the first question. Everyone so far as described 'standard' AOE attacks. Not all AOE attacks do blast damage or damage at all. Some AOE effects such as pStrikers earthquake spell doesn't do damage but everyone hit is knocked down.

Also not all AOEs deal blast damage, some AOEs specify that all models hit by it suffer a pow X damage roll. In that case it is not blast damage, isn't halved for targets not directly hit extra. Main example here I can think of is Gorman Di Wulfe's acid bomb, where all models hit suffer a pow X corrosion damage roll and the corrosion continuous effect. That damage is NOT considered blast damage. Minor point but some models are immune to blast damage.

There are also attacks that use the AOE templates that are not an AOE at all. They just use the template for their area. Things like Covering Fire and Ground Pounder are good examples.

Thanks for the additional AoE information. Quick question regarding that - one of my buddies is playing Scyrah has a Manticore, who wields a Cyclone Cannon, which has a Covering Fire *Action

Since the CCannon can shoot three times, we're taking that to mean he can either put down three 3" AoE templates or can elect to shoot three AoE template weapons directly at an opponent, following all the normal rules for AoE (and potentially three separate enemy models at that - considering there doesn't seem to be a rule about all your shooting attacks in the RoF sequence must hit the same target).

Is this the case? Or is this weapon regulated to placing three 3" circles per turn, and thus cannot target an enemy directly, considering it has the *Action attribute? If it IS able to fire like an AoE weapon, can it say, place two 3" templates and target an enemy with the final blast?

Sorry for the additional questions, but the general principles in this answer will answer a lot more for my gaming group (who have all had a chance to view this thread, so thank you all again so much!).


Edit: I can't seem to find this in the rulebook either, so if someone has a page number that would be very helpful. Going off Mord's previous response, it seems that it is only limited to the attributes on the card and thus cannot fire like a normal AoE attack by firing directly at an enemy. I would just like to see if this is correct.

It is a *action, not a *attack, so you have to do in instead of having a combat action (which means you cannot make additional attacks, as those can only be done in a combat action).

Basically, choices for your action go like this:
1) Choose *action OR have a combat action. If a special action, that's all, one and done.

2) If combat action, choose initial attacks (ranged or melee) OR a *attack.

3) after initial attacks or *attack, you can make additional attacks of the same type (melee or ranged) - these are normal attacks, cannot be *actions or *attacks.

(Note, special rules can change any point here)

So only one covering fire template can be put down by the Cyclone Cannon, and that's all.

Meanwhile, covering fire templates IIRC are just placed wherever you want, within range/LOS, they do no damage when placed, only to people entering/ending activation in the template. Don't know if this was what you were asking, exactly...

Hope that helps

Ooooh Ok. So you pick one to go with: the ranged stats on the front of the card for the CCannon itself, or the *Action, which you do instead of the multi-shot AoE combat attack. One or the other, never both.

Further, in a hypothetical situation where the gun had no offensive stats on the front of the card but had an *Action, the only option is the *Action.

Thanks Madder!

Note that if you do use the normal shot with the gun, you get one shot wtih it as an initial attack. Rate of Fire is the maximum attacks the weapon can make, not the base. You get one shot at it, and then can buy up to the ROF of the weapon (3 in the case of the Manticore), in the case with warjacks usually using focus.

And stuff.

Just a note on ROF as well, because it trips a lot of people up. You only get a single initial attack per weapon, regardless of the ROF. ROF just dictates the maximum number of shots you can make during the models activation - extra attacks after the first still have to be bought with focus (or special rules).

Edit: lol, ninja' with very nearly the same wording.

Anyway, I don't know of any guns that only have a *action, but there are a fair few that have *actions not linked to weapons, they just put them on the back of the card. There are also guns with POW - that have special rules about what they do, like pGrims net gun.

Fantastic. Thanks again for all the help. The RoF thing is news to me - we have been playing that wrong for sure (or, I know I have... Lylyth's Hellsinger is mighty fine).

citadel wrote:
Fantastic. Thanks again for all the help. The RoF thing is news to me - we have been playing that wrong for sure (or, I know I have... Lylyth's Hellsinger is mighty fine).

Oh god, what I wouldn't give to see somebody's reaction if somebody brought in eCaine with this little misunderstanding in place.

(eCaine or Captain Allister Caine - Cygnar Warcaster, has two guns each with RoF[Infinite])

 Chongara wrote:

citadel wrote:
Fantastic. Thanks again for all the help. The RoF thing is news to me - we have been playing that wrong for sure (or, I know I have... Lylyth's Hellsinger is mighty fine).

Oh god, what I wouldn't give to see somebody's reaction if somebody brought in eCaine with this little misunderstanding in place.

(eCaine or Captain Allister Caine - Cygnar Warcaster, has two guns each with RoF[Infinite])

The thought of that almost makes me wish I had learnt it that way and gotten to play at least one game like that.

That would indeed be very fun, although if you thought that all the attacks you got from ROF had to be directed at the same target (that was a question that was asked. Each attack can be targeted separately)... still "kill a number of models each turn equal to your focus stat + 2" would be pretty dang awesome.

citadel wrote:
Ooooh Ok. So you pick one to go with: the ranged stats on the front of the card for the CCannon itself, or the *Action, which you do instead of the multi-shot AoE combat attack. One or the other, never both.

Further, in a hypothetical situation where the gun had no offensive stats on the front of the card but had an *Action, the only option is the *Action.

Thanks Madder!

Really important: the covering fire template is /not/ an attack, it is an action.

This means that you can place it anywhere within range, you don't have to choose an enemy model for anything, etc etc. Furthermore, things that stopped attacks wouldn't stop it.

 dementedwombat wrote:
That would indeed be very fun, although if you thought that all the attacks you got from ROF had to be directed at the same target (that was a question that was asked. Each attack can be targeted separately)... still "kill a number of models each turn equal to your focus stat + 2" would be pretty dang awesome.

Base Focus + 4 attacks when you add in squire and reinholdt as well. so basically 10 shots in one turn.