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Hi everyone,

I’m having a really hard time fighting Tyranids with my CSM army. My opponent always has 4 or more flying monstrous creatures with T6 and a lot of wounds who are jinking if necessary. Sure, my Heldrakes can shoot at full BS, but with only 4 shots each this does not really lead to much wounds. Vector striking with the Demon Prince also seems more like using all I have and not like a real tool to deal with it. The problem is now if I ignore them I will get shot like hell (2 of them –don’t ask me for the names of that Tyranids – had 12 S6 shots each turn…) and if I shoot at them they just soak up that much fire that the rest will reach me in time to hack me into pieces.

What anti air options are there in fact? I tried proxying some Havocs with Flakk Missiles, but for so much points they get taken out way too fast. I could take more Heldrakes, but I feel like that Tyranid is getting way better (and more) flying MC for less points and will always outdo me in terms of flying firepower.
Thanks for any help, I feel a bit frustrated. Don’t ask for my army list, just discuss solutions I will buy anything necessary to have a fair match with a chance for me…

Best regards
Murenius

My best friend plays Tyranids. I play him regularly and he's the one to win most of our matches, even though he has only 1 FMC (he plays Nidzilla). It's the Flying Hive Tyrant with TL Brainleech Devourers, the one who gets 12 S6 shots.

You've got a Heldrake with Hades Autocannon and a Daemon Prince, that's always something. Havocs aren't cost efficient as anti-air. I strongly recommend taking an ADL with Quad-gun. It's worked wonders for me and frequently forces said Tyrant to sit behind a mountain for the first few turns instead of flying around and wrecking my vehicles. The Quad-gun [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself - thanks! Alpharius] things like Hive Crones, and even a Flying Hive Tyrant will often suffer a wound with a single round of shooting, which is enough for a grounding test.

While it's certainly something it is not enough to reliably win a game. I'll get an ADL for sure, but I really would love to hear how other CSM players solved this for them so far.

I have always had problems with my CSM engaging Tyranids MCs.

On that special note, lately I've noticed that Tyranids spamming MCs tend to die to Daemon Princes pretty well. Especially when they have the Black Mace. I know a lot of people don't want to throw a costly model like a Daemon Prince at something like a Tervigon just in case a lucky Smash Attack gets through, but it's a game of chance anyways. Dice will either seem like they love you, or the space shuttle will crash onto your Game Table and you'll lose out =/

With that being said, 5+D6 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s at AP2 usually means a dead bug. They'll be hitting you on 5s with everything aside a Swarmlord (IIRC) who has a good WS. Another suggestion I could make is taking something like Decimator Seige Engine from Forge World. Cheap, reliable, scary in melee. The things just eat through eat through everyone. But your best bet is to take Daemons Allies.

I used to run 2 FOC at 2k and spam Tri Las Predators. Thought was pumping out as many STR9 AP2 shots as possible, but that only really helps if you A) hit and B) aren't facing more than 3 Tervigons or equiv. The things just have too many wounds for a reliable Lascannon unit to chew through. If you have the models for it, try running a Daemon Prince of Nurgle from Codex : Chaos Daemons. Give him 2 greater Rewards, 1 being the chart you roll a D6 on, and the other default to taking a specialized weapon for your Daemon (Being the Balesword) It causes instant Death. If you manage to get into a Multi Assault with your said Daemon Prince, you pretty much kill everything around you.

Speaking of Daemon allies, slaanesh Lash Princes will tear up enemy fliers if they can get the right powers. Give them the lash weapon, roll up biomancy powers, and fly around doing d6 str8 ranged attacks + more str8 vector strikes.

Its always kind of depressing to see everybody's answers turn to allies. In this case allies probably are your best bet, but in most cases I'd rather answers came in codex.

In codex I'm thinking you could try sticking things in land raiders. Str 6 will never kill a land raider. You can fill them with mutilators/terminators and try to kill all the the tyranids ground forces.

I would try taking a mastery level 3 unmarked sorcerer with a spell familiar. Roll biomancy hope for iron arm, or warp speed. Stick him with terminators/mutilators stick em in land raiders and cruise forward unimpeded.

I've never faced harpies or crones though so if they counter this then I'm out of ideas.

Yeah, I also dislike the thought of allies, simply since I am an old school player and would play the other army if it works so well in that situation.

I've tried spamming Las-Predators and a Land Raider, but this didn't work out. Snap shots at 6 against flying MC which then also just Jink as needed is taking very expensive shots (pointwise) with no real result.

Let's say you got 3 Predators and 1 LR. That would be (if ideally positioned) 8 normal Las shots and 4 twin linked. If the target flying MC jinks this means of the 8 las shots only 1.11 will wound, so only 0.55 will remain after the jink save. For the 4 TL shots only 1.02 will wound, so only 0.51 will remain after the save.

So for hundreds of points you can only expect one measly wound less. And those Tyrands have plenty of them… that’s exactly what frustrated me so much during the last games.

I've never tried this, but would Vindicators work? Their problem is short range, which Tyranids also share. Obviously not on the FMCs, though.

For those, try bolters. Seriously. It's much more difficult to do so now, but if you can force them to ground, Harpies and Hive Crones will melt.

Oh, and don't forget that Skyfire templates work on FMCs (it is not forbidden in the rulebook, unlike for flyers*). You can use the Burning Brand and Baleflamer against them.

EDIT: * Unless this changed in 7th, but I don't think it did.

I play 'Nids and Chaos Marines and can tell you this is one of the shortcomings of the CSM codex. In codex, the only real option is a unit of Havoks, but as you said, they cost a ton of points and will go down easy; you could add MoN to them, but that's even more points for just a bit more survivability, however if the nids are your main opponent, those Flakk missiles are death to Flyrants - AP3 so they get no save and, barring Iron Arm you wound on 2s, and then comes the grounding test. If you really don't want to ally and you are looking for more of an all-comers solution, then the ADL/Quad-Gun is the best option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I've never tried this, but would Vindicators work? Their problem is short range, which Tyranids also share. Obviously not on the FMCs, though.

For those, try bolters. Seriously. It's mu inch more difficult to do so now, but if you can force them to ground, Harpies and Hive Crones will melt.

Oh, and don't forget that Skyfire templates work on FMCs (it is not forbidden in the rulebook, unlike for flyers*). You can use the Burning Brand and Baleflamer against them.

EDIT: * Unless this changed in 7th, but I don't think it did.

Just checked the 6th rulebook again, you could not fire any blast or template weapons at FMCs (p 49 brb under hard to hit and although I don't have access to the 7th book right now, I am 99% sure that hasn't changed), I was fairly certain that was the rule as I have never had a Flyrant hit with a baleflamer, Vindys won't work for the same reason.

Bolters are a really tough go now as you have to actually cause a wound to ground an FMC now. So, you have to hit on 6, wound on 6, and they have to fail the armor save and the grounding check, that's a LOT to go right.

 Battlesong wrote:

Bolters are a really tough go now as you have to actually cause a wound to ground an FMC now. So, you have to hit on 6, wound on 6, and they have to fail the armor save and the grounding check, that's a LOT to go right.

Exactly, if you consider the standard 10 man squad with bolters you can only expect 10 shots since the FMC won't be that close in most cases. And from 10 shots only 0.28 will wound, if I were the 'Nid player I'd not even take the Jink. So I don't think this is an option. Considering you can't even take a Flakk missile on the heavy weapons guys in the tactical squad... which is a shame.

Look to the Stronghold assault book. An Aegis with a quad gun is good, but there are several other even better fortifications for taking down FMC's. For instance, the Firestorm Redoubt or the Vengeance weapons battery. Make note of what you are shooting at. Flyrants (the ones with 12 shots) are T6 with a 3+. Crones and Harpies however are T5 with a 4+, so they are wounded on 2's with no armor saves by the quad gun. An Icarus Quad cannon does something similar to Flyrants.

And yes, as of right now RAW, a baleflamer can hit FMCs. Not Flying vehicle, only FMCs.

Originally I was thinking an army of just land raiders because I thought that flyrants would never be able to hurt them unless they landed, but now that I've looked into it a bit they have haywire template attacks. Not only that but crones have haywire missiles.

You could try to roll on the nurgle table and get weapon virus. Cast that on a flyrant and hope he kills himself. It's a bit of a long shot.

MS 1 Flying princes rolling on telepathy. Psychic shriek is really good. Even with leadership 10 3d6 can totally screw flyrants and crones. You might even get invisibility or shrouded if your lucky.

If you have the points you could try bel'lakor. He could fly around shooting psychic shrieks at all the air units while casting invisibility on your important stuff.

Here's an 1850 point list which I think should kill those FMC's.

2x Deamon prince, nurgle, wings, armor, mastery level 1

3x 5 man csm squads

3x helldrake

3x 5 man havocs with 4 flack missile launchers

1x aegis defense line with the quad gun.

 Battlesong wrote:

Just checked the 6th rulebook again, you could not fire any blast or template weapons at FMCs (p 49 brb under hard to hit and although I don't have access to the 7th book right now, I am 99% sure that hasn't changed), I was fairly certain that was the rule as I have never had a Flyrant hit with a baleflamer, Vindys won't work for the same reason.

Bolters are a really tough go now as you have to actually cause a wound to ground an FMC now. So, you have to hit on 6, wound on 6, and they have to fail the armor save and the grounding check, that's a LOT to go right.

You're right, which is weird. I've read a bunch of arguments on the subject, and it's strange that people have missed this when it's in their description. It only refers to Swooping, though, but still. Maybe the things I was reading were about 7th? I don't have the book yet, so I can't check.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

Just checked the 6th rulebook again, you could not fire any blast or template weapons at FMCs (p 49 brb under hard to hit and although I don't have access to the 7th book right now, I am 99% sure that hasn't changed), I was fairly certain that was the rule as I have never had a Flyrant hit with a baleflamer, Vindys won't work for the same reason.

Bolters are a really tough go now as you have to actually cause a wound to ground an FMC now. So, you have to hit on 6, wound on 6, and they have to fail the armor save and the grounding check, that's a LOT to go right.

You're right, which is weird. I've read a bunch of arguments on the subject, and it's strange that people have missed this when it's in their description. It only refers to Swooping, though, but still. Maybe the things I was reading were about 7th? I don't have the book yet, so I can't check.

Well, I was really only looking at Swooping because you won't have any issues hitting the Flyrants if they aren't swooping. Could be in the 7th book; I don't have a copy for myself yet, I was just going off how the people I know that have the book are playing it

I really don't know why I thought it was important to mention that! Anyway, I should be able to check this out tomorrow.

The new book does not include anything about blasts and templates not being able to target swooping FMCs the way it does for zooming fliers. You do have to have skyfire, though.

That being said, the best option is a heldrake with a baleflamer.

Also, a Slaanesh daemon prince can easily go telepathy and get psychic shriek for his powers. That can do a number on a hive tyrant, with a little luck.

Landraiders are also nice to protect key units. Mounting up in general, really, is a good idea. A S6 template can kill a lot of dudes - it can only do a single hull point to a rhino. The hive tyrant has enough shots to hull point down a rhino, but that's still better than forcing 9 saves on a squad of guys, and he can't make it explode. It also gives you an edge on mobility.

Also, if he LOVES jinking, try to make as many creatures jink as you can. When he jinks, they have to snapshot - that really puts a damper on the tyrant's accuracy, and the blast shooters like the harpy and crone will be unable to fire at all.

Heldrakes will do a number on them - try not to worry about shooting them. Vector strike! S7 AP2, you still get D3 hits on other fliers, wounds on a 3+ and ignores cover.

If he's NOT jinking, focus your firepower on one at a time to avoid having too many charge you at once. They can be nasty in cc.

Maulerfiends are a nice way to take them down once they land. Have one and run it over to wherever you're going to try to shoot and take one down. SInce they smash for ONLY one attack now, you've got good odds of doing serious damage and the non-tyrant FMCs are T5, meaning they'll die to a single wound from the maulerfiend.

 Battlesong wrote:
I play 'Nids and Chaos Marines and can tell you this is one of the shortcomings of the CSM codex. In codex, the only real option is a unit of Havoks, but as you said, they cost a ton of points and will go down easy; you could add MoN to them, but that's even more points for just a bit more survivability, however if the nids are your main opponent, those Flakk missiles are death to Flyrants - AP3 so they get no save and, barring Iron Arm you wound on 2s, and then comes the grounding test. If you really don't want to ally and you are looking for more of an all-comers solution, then the ADL/Quad-Gun is the best option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I've never tried this, but would Vindicators work? Their problem is short range, which Tyranids also share. Obviously not on the FMCs, though.

For those, try bolters. Seriously. It's mu inch more difficult to do so now, but if you can force them to ground, Harpies and Hive Crones will melt.

Oh, and don't forget that Skyfire templates work on FMCs (it is not forbidden in the rulebook, unlike for flyers*). You can use the Burning Brand and Baleflamer against them.

EDIT: * Unless this changed in 7th, but I don't think it did.

Just checked the 6th rulebook again, you could not fire any blast or template weapons at FMCs (p 49 brb under hard to hit and although I don't have access to the 7th book right now, I am 99% sure that hasn't changed), I was fairly certain that was the rule as I have never had a Flyrant hit with a baleflamer, Vindys won't work for the same reason.

Bolters are a really tough go now as you have to actually cause a wound to ground an FMC now. So, you have to hit on 6, wound on 6, and they have to fail the armor save and the grounding check, that's a LOT to go right.

Flakk missiles are s7 ap4 Heavy 1. And cost like...10 pts more?

The problem is that your only real options are hades drakes and fortifications. If you feel you don't have enough of theese - you got to play around FMC. Take a landraider with something decent in mellee. Be it termitanors or even ccw marines. Slaanesh ccw marines with FNP icon are actually quite potent. Or you could go for zerks + aobf lord or Kharn (and you can forget about the problem with witchfires and maledictions). Champ dies in a challenge but the rest of the guyz reliably kill any bug no matter how huge he is. Nids have issues with landraiders now.

 koooaei wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:
I play 'Nids and Chaos Marines and can tell you this is one of the shortcomings of the CSM codex. In codex, the only real option is a unit of Havoks, but as you said, they cost a ton of points and will go down easy; you could add MoN to them, but that's even more points for just a bit more survivability, however if the nids are your main opponent, those Flakk missiles are death to Flyrants - AP3 so they get no save and, barring Iron Arm you wound on 2s, and then comes the grounding test. If you really don't want to ally and you are looking for more of an all-comers solution, then the ADL/Quad-Gun is the best option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I've never tried this, but would Vindicators work? Their problem is short range, which Tyranids also share. Obviously not on the FMCs, though.

For those, try bolters. Seriously. It's mu inch more difficult to do so now, but if you can force them to ground, Harpies and Hive Crones will melt.

Oh, and don't forget that Skyfire templates work on FMCs (it is not forbidden in the rulebook, unlike for flyers*). You can use the Burning Brand and Baleflamer against them.

EDIT: * Unless this changed in 7th, but I don't think it did.

Just checked the 6th rulebook again, you could not fire any blast or template weapons at FMCs (p 49 brb under hard to hit and although I don't have access to the 7th book right now, I am 99% sure that hasn't changed), I was fairly certain that was the rule as I have never had a Flyrant hit with a baleflamer, Vindys won't work for the same reason.

Bolters are a really tough go now as you have to actually cause a wound to ground an FMC now. So, you have to hit on 6, wound on 6, and they have to fail the armor save and the grounding check, that's a LOT to go right.

Flakk missiles are s7 ap4 Heavy 1. And cost like...10 pts more?

The problem is that your only real options are hades drakes and fortifications. If you feel you don't have enough of theese - you got to play around FMC. Take a landraider with something decent in mellee. Be it termitanors or even ccw marines. Slaanesh ccw marines with FNP icon are actually quite potent. Or you could go for zerks + aobf lord or Kharn (and you can forget about the problem with witchfires and maledictions). Champ dies in a challenge but the rest of the guyz reliably kill any bug no matter how huge he is. Nids have issues with landraiders now.

Flak missiles are perfect for dealing with harpies and crones. They wound on 2's and pen their armor. two squads of havoc's should be able to take one down a turn. Take 3 squads and hopefully you have enough redundancy to deal with all the harpies and crones.

I'm skeptical of saying that tyranid have trouble with land raiders. Hive tyrants generally take a haywire gun, the crones come with haywire missiles. Hive guard also have haywire guns but the 18" range makes then much less threatening.

Could go with a Firestorm Redoubt. FMCs can't hurt with while flying, and it can hurt them or at least force them to Jink which means 31% Hit rate vs 75% which is a huge reduction in incoming fire.

I play against my friends tyranids pretty often and here are some of my strategies.

I like my pred tank as much as the next guy but Ive found that when playing nids, a havoc squad with x2 heavy bolters and x2 lascannons works much better.
For FMC the same squad equipped with x4 heavy bolters is alot better then most would think. I also like to run an unmarked sorcerer and take all biomancy and spell familiar. (making it so I get endurance almost every time) 4+ feel no pain, relentless and eternal warrior makes these havocs brutal and very difficult to kill for nids.
I usually have at least 3 havoc squads with two sorcerers.

Supporting these I usually have my deamon prince of khorne. axe of blind fury, power armor, wings, deamon of khorne = 255 points. That gets me anywhere from 8-14 strength 8 ap2 attacks at I8 on the charge. so once I drop one of those flying mcs with one of my havoc squads and if they are within assault of my DP they are pretty much just dead.

Last thing, I love my land raider especially when Im playing nids! Stuff that thing with x10 khorne zerkers with x9 chainaxes and a LC on the champ Nids, Slaying, Beatstick, Machine.

And I know that people will be thinking "oh statistics statistics, that would work because using math itll come out to like 2 hits on a FMC and no wounds".

To these people I say bs!! Role the dice and find out.

 jackflashultra wrote:

To these people I say bs!! Role the dice and find out.

That is statistics, just less credible. Ninety attacks from Hormagaunts on a squad of Plague Marines could potentially result in ninety unsaved wounds. It's just not very likely, and we know this because of statistics. Knowing that higher Ballistic Skill will cause more successful hits is statistics. Knowing that a combi-bolter is superior to a storm bolter at half range is statistics. I just rolled a die, and it landed on a 3. Does that mean it will always land on a 3? Of course it doesn't. Statistical analysis of this same die that I conducted last week says, however, that it will roll a 3 approximately 22% of the time, which is definitely above the expected average (16.66667%). Statistics are not nonsense, and your suggestion to "role the dice" is just a cruder form.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


That is statistics, just less credible. Ninety attacks from Hormagaunts on a squad of Plague Marines could potentially result in ninety unsaved wounds. It's just not very likely, and we know this because of statistics. Knowing that higher Ballistic Skill will cause more successful hits is statistics. Knowing that a combi-bolter is superior to a storm bolter at half range is statistics. I just rolled a die, and it landed on a 3. Does that mean it will always land on a 3? Of course it doesn't. Statistical analysis of this same die that I conducted last week says, however, that it will roll a 3 approximately 22% of the time, which is definitely above the expected average (16.66667%). Statistics are not nonsense, and your suggestion to "role the dice" is just a cruder form.

Well said. It's just a question of how often you roll and what the distribution function of your random number generator is. In this case a six sided die, so calculating the probabilities will tell you just fine how a situation will most likely turn out over a large number of games.

 Murenius wrote:

Well said. It's just a question of how often you roll and what the distribution function of your random number generator is. In this case a six sided die, so calculating the probabilities will tell you just fine how a situation will most likely turn out over a large number of games.

That's exactly it. Whether you base this on experience or mathematics really doesn't matter. For instance, if you have rolled To Hit with Space Marines 1000 times, your result should not be dissimilar to the projected probability of 1000 rolls. A 4+ is a 50% chance, and both player experience and statistics should reflect that. It's why masses of attacks (like charging Hormagaunts against Space Marines, or lasguns against Space Marines) usually come down to only a few successful wounds. The numbers are all the same.

I guess the whole randomness of the dice roll has absolutely nothing to do with the game then???? Because that's all I'm getting out of this thread.
If your trying to tell someone who is asking advice, not to play with anything that is not "statistically sound" your pretty sad of a player, I bet you get pissed of and throw a tantrum when you lose huh?

To the individual who started this thread. Refrain from listening to players such as this one. Yes I will admit statistics play a tiny part in this game but in majority this game is randomness. If you think things are going to go as planned every time your wrong. If you think a Pred tank has no way of surviving a drop pod with melta, sternguard inside you clearly don't know how to deploy. These "statistics" can and do get countered by skill and know how. Don't read to much into the statistics of the dice, it literally plays very little part in the game aside from what others want to rant.

I am making a big deal out of this because I don't want your potential limited just because some one tells you something wont work or sucks. I say make it work and make it boss!! The only one stopping you from figuring out a way to do so is you!! Its not the unit its how you use it!!! NO MATTER the "statistics"

Right, so you can expect a 10-man Tactical Squad to take on the entirety of the enemy force, because "the dice could go that way"?

Randomness is statistics. Nobody is saying that a Predator cannot survive a full volley of melta, just that it is unlikely. What you are saying is to ignore probability, and that those Tactical Marines are immune to Baleflamers because the To Wound could be 1. Every informed action you make in this game is based on probability. Why would you not try to kill Assault Terminators with Tactical Marines? Because their chances of success, statistically, are very slim. We know that a quad gun is more effective against Harpies than a Hades autocannon because of statistics.

You give your Daemon Prince the Axe of Blind Fury. Why? Because you know, even if you don't think of it that way, that the Axe of Blind Fury is statistically a good option. Why take Plague Marines? Because their higher Toughness and Feel No Pain makes them statistically less likely to die than normal Chaos Space Marines.

If the game was, as you assert, all down to randomness, then you would just bring whatever you want and then flip a coin with your opponent to determine the winner. Why would you expect Chaos Terminators with Power Swords to be able to easily defeat their number in Space Marines?

Nobody thinks things will always go as planned. If you have the option of something that has an 88% success rate and something that has a 13% success rate, you're saying that picking the 88% success rate is foolish because "statistics can be wrong". The thing is, 88% is 88% - it's a very good chance, but it still means it will fail 22% of the time. You're saying that a 2+ save is equal to no save, because statistics are evil or something.

EDIT:

 jackflashultra wrote:
I play against my friends tyranids pretty often and here are some of my strategies.

I like my pred tank as much as the next guy but Ive found that when playing nids, a havoc squad with x2 heavy bolters and x2 lascannons works much better.
For FMC the same squad equipped with x4 heavy bolters is alot better then most would think. I also like to run an unmarked sorcerer and take all biomancy and spell familiar. (making it so I get endurance almost every time) 4+ feel no pain, relentless and eternal warrior makes these havocs brutal and very difficult to kill for nids.
I usually have at least 3 havoc squads with two sorcerers.

If the game was totally random, you wouldn't have any strategies. Why do you do any of this? Why do you use Havocs with heavy bolters instead of Chaos Space Marines with bolters? Why do you take a Spell Familiar? Why do you cast Endurance on the Havocs? All of those things are because you are basing them on probability. The only thing that higher Strength or Toughness manipulates is your chances of success. If the game were completely random, none of it would matter. Strength, Toughness, armour saves, invulnerable saves, Twin-linked, and a lot more would be totally pointless.