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Since a lot of Space Marine Chapters are said to be close-combat monsters, why don't they reflect that on the tabletop? AFAIK, only BA have their CC covered acurately, while Chapters like the Black Templars and Space Wolves kind of get short handed on the Close Combat. Wouldn't it make more sense if Chapters like the SW (who practically LIVE for CC) or the Black Templars (who spend an unusual amount of time in CC) to at least receive an extra WS point?

On top of this, I find that units like Veterans (who have been fighting for literally centuries) receive no justice for it, like an extra WS or BS point like they do in the fluff. I don't understand how GW is trying to find balance with Space Marines - why not accurately depict them and then up the point cost? They're meant to be the specialist ultra-mega-Special Forces of all time, and the TT makes them look like ordinary Delta Force.

Note: a super-duper special unit does not due a specialized Chapter justice. What, Wolves riding Wolves with Wolves following them is doing justice to somebody who has been fighting in absolute melee for centuries and still has the skill of a standard Tactical Marine? Oh, yeah, that makes so much sense.

 dusara217 wrote:
Since a lot of Space Marine Chapters are said to be close-combat monsters, why don't they reflect that on the tabletop? AFAIK, only BA have their CC covered acurately, while Chapters like the Black Templars and Space Wolves kind of get short handed on the Close Combat. Wouldn't it make more sense if Chapters like the SW (who practically LIVE for CC) or the Black Templars (who spend an unusual amount of time in CC) to at least receive an extra WS point?

Space Wolves have one of the best melee units in the game and some of the best generic CC chars...

 dusara217 wrote:
Since a lot of Space Marine Chapters are said to be close-combat monsters, why don't they reflect that on the tabletop? AFAIK, only BA have their CC covered acurately, while Chapters like the Black Templars and Space Wolves kind of get short handed on the Close Combat. Wouldn't it make more sense if Chapters like the SW (who practically LIVE for CC) or the Black Templars (who spend an unusual amount of time in CC) to at least receive an extra WS point?

I take it you haven't played against TWC yet?

Bah. My death company will take your TWC on any day of the bloody black week!

Black Templars really aren't that bad. They're certainly better than CSM, and LR dedicated transports make for an "Assault" army even if they never swing once in CC - their army loves to be up close and personal.

And seriously, they aren't that bad at it.

An all 5 statted common troop with 2 wounds and FNP would be fun, marines already struggle a bit with net wounds and net firepower. Making them better could really make it impossible for them to handle hordes or gun lines.

Marine baseline strikes again.


you're looking at tatical marines as the average. THEY'RE NOT. all Marines are absolutly amazing skill wise. the Imperial Guard recruits from the top percentile of a planet's population. this means the Imperial guard consists of very skilled warriors. proably on part with Delta force and all those other super elite units we hear about.

so basicly WS/BS 4 means they are indeed "that elite" it's just that the people they fight are often just as good

 Lobukia wrote:
An all 5 statted common troop with 2 wounds and FNP would be fun, marines already struggle a bit with net wounds and net firepower. Making them better could really make it impossible for them to handle hordes or gun lines.

Then give them a marine bolter, not a puny human bolter and it might work. Though I'm also against other humans having a stat over 3, unless they're a character.

BrianDavion wrote:
Marine baseline strikes again.
you're looking at tatical marines as the average. THEY'RE NOT. all Marines are absolutly amazing skill wise. the Imperial Guard recruits from the top percentile of a planet's population. this means the Imperial guard consists of very skilled warriors. proably on part with Delta force and all those other super elite units we hear about.

Except they don't. They take what they can, when they need it. Its absolutely pointless to have spec force manning a gun line or doing anything other than doing storm trooperey stuff.
There's draftee's, ex ganger's, criminals, some guy being in the wrong place at the wrong time can end up a guardsman.
But IG players like thinking all they're troops are special little snow forces.

There is no such thing as a "marine Bolter" or a "puny human Bolter". Stupid FFG, making stuff up because they realised their Deathwatch marines weren't broken enough...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There is no such thing as a "marine Bolter" or a "puny human Bolter". Stupid FFG, making stuff up because they realised their Deathwatch marines weren't broken enough...

They really weren't - when we played Deathwatch, we found that they were understatted and we gave them +5 to all stats and +7 base wounds to make them more adequate. And +2 AP to all Astartes armour, as well.


Also, I am still not going to buy that these weapons should have the same stats.

Unless your GM was very ruthless, I'm very surprised. you can kill dozens of cultists without even blinking in that game.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Unless your GM was very ruthless, I'm very surprised. you can kill dozens of cultists without even blinking in that game.

Not really. I am not sure if I remember the rules of multitargeting, but bolters have a RoF of S/2/4 so you're capped at 4 cultists per 5 sec at the absolute maximum.

Also, I was the GM, and yes I was ruthless. Rail rifles are dangerous even to adjusted Marines.

Seeing a squad of nine Deathwatch Space Marines was pretty cool, though. Our devastator equipped Metal Storm rounds on his HB and shot down something like 50 Fire Warriors in one round. (Horde rules ftw! Blast + Unrelenting Devastation + Mighty shot made each hit into five hits)

Well yeah, they are anti-tank weapons . I'm not saying that you kill everything instantly, just that it's very easy. Or at least that was my experience.

Edit: although 4 cultists/s is still pretty damn fast. And it was the power of the bolter more than anything else.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:


Edit: although 4 cultists/s is still pretty damn fast. And it was the power of the bolter more than anything else.

No, not 4 cultists per second, 4 cultists per 5 seconds.

That's 0,8 cultists per second!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There is no such thing as a "marine Bolter" or a "puny human Bolter". Stupid FFG, making stuff up because they realised their Deathwatch marines weren't broken enough...

They really weren't - when we played Deathwatch, we found that they were understatted and we gave them +5 to all stats and +7 base wounds to make them more adequate. And +2 AP to all Astartes armour, as well.


Also, I am still not going to buy that these weapons should have the same stats.

Spoiler:

Your kinda making the same point - those illustrations are FFG version of 40k - not better or worse just slightly different. Many people like the Codex version which says in general military Power Armour = military Power Armour, be that Astartes or Sororitas.

The Astartes have superior physical form, superior reflexes, superior intergration with the Black carapace, etc.

The Sororitas have exceptional traning by human stadards, and the direct blessing of the (or a) God-Emperor.

It really does not matter what it looks like - this is a universe where appearances are deceptive and if it looks cool for a 10,000 years then its made to look that way - Everything about the Astartes is bigger, its part of their shock and awe image - does nto mean that the Imperium can not and does not make equally (or far more effective) smaller versions where it has decided it will suit them.

Hell, the "skin tight" aspect of the Sororitas armour may even date back to Vandire who effectively first created the Sororitas as a Imeprial fighting force - and he likely wanted to it skin tight,cos thats what he liked and as effective ruler of a large part of the Imperium - he got (mostly) waht he wanted - damn the expense.

If you want to make Marines match the fluff you need to make them highe stats etc - AND then pay the points for them - thats why GW has not and likely will not do it.

Then give them a marine bolter, not a puny human bolter and it might work. Though I'm also against other humans having a stat over 3, unless they're a character.

Disagree - yeah amke the Stats better for "Fluffy" marines but highly trained humans should be able to go upto 4's are higher in terms of WS/BS - its a universe of plot/style driven stats

 Mr Morden wrote:
If you want to make Marines match the fluff you need to make them highe stats etc - AND then pay the points for them - thats why GW has not and likely will not do it.

Then give them a marine bolter, not a puny human bolter and it might work. Though I'm also against other humans having a stat over 3, unless they're a character.

I wouldn't be averse to this.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:


Edit: although 4 cultists/s is still pretty damn fast. And it was the power of the bolter more than anything else.

No, not 4 cultists per second, 4 cultists per 5 seconds.

That's 0,8 cultists per second!

My mistake. But still .

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
If you want to make Marines match the fluff you need to make them highe stats etc - AND then pay the points for them - thats why GW has not and likely will not do it.

Then give them a marine bolter, not a puny human bolter and it might work. Though I'm also against other humans having a stat over 3, unless they're a character.

I wouldn't be averse to this.

nor would I - but can;t see them making offical versions again as you would only sell a few of them.....

Space marines have an impressive statline, they are on a par with a lot of other armies elite troops in all but a few areas. namely attacks and their paltry close combat weapons.

Where marines fall down is that they are relatively expensive, and there has been, over multiple editions, an explosion in the firepower of various armies, and no requisite increase in durability of troops. a few point reductions in cost isn't really sufficient to offset the weapons marines face.

Where the game also fails is the emphasis towards equal points values on the battlefield, and this doesn't really favour the space marines tactical style.

What space marines would do, is drop behind enemy lines in force, massacre troops at critical locations, Supply dumps, Headquarter locations and so forth, and extract before a counter attack could be mounted. In such a situation, using surprise, probably numerical superiority or at the very least, parity. Space marines would walk all over whoever, or whatever they were facing. Given their small numbers, and the difficulty in replacing losses, it would be supremely stupid for space marines to fight in most of the battles that we fight on the tabletop. as far as the Imperium goes, that's what the Imperial guard is for!

The best (and very very fun) representation of marines is using the 'movie marine' rules (do a search). if you want Super Humans capable of destroying large numbers of enemies both at range, and in close combat, look no further. using those rules, your marines, though they will number but 6-7 at most will walk all over pretty much anything the enemy can muster and not break a sweat. If you are really unlucky, you may lose a couple of guys, but in keeping with movies, these will just be 'flesh wounds'

 Ashiraya wrote:
Also, I am still not going to buy that these weapons should have the same stats.

Spoiler:

Have you seen the “Size of the marine in boxes” GW promotion ?
Your scale is very off.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Also, I am still not going to buy that these weapons should have the same stats.

Spoiler:

Have you seen the “Size of the marine in boxes” GW promotion ?
Your scale is very off.

Outlier, illogical and easy to ignore. If you are going to ignore where SoB use space magic and behave more like D&D clerics than anything else, I am going to ignore GW not understanding the meaning of their own scale.

Space Marines are incredibly consistently described as being significantly larger than normal men. If they had been 7' in armour, including the helmet top and the massive bootsoles (especially the bootsoles), they wouldn't be.

They use they same bolts, thus they have the same power weapons. Other than on thing in deathwatch, there is nothing to suggest that their bolters are anything more than bigger.

Just off the top of my head:

Pg.320 Blood Angels Omnibus wrote:He saw Tycho’s combi-weapon lying on the floor and took a half-step toward it. The idea of taking it up himself died in this mind; the gun was so massive he would never have been able to lift it.

Pg.20 The First Heretic
wrote:The angel’s brethren emerged from the dark interior of their landing craft and descended to the plaza. All wore armour of the same blue. All of them carried great weapons too heavy for a mortal man to lift unaided.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
They use they same bolts, thus they have the same power weapons. Other than on thing in deathwatch, there is nothing to suggest that their bolters are anything more than bigger.

Yes, but why do you think they are bigger?

Do you really think SM weapons are just added metal filler?

Not even IOM weapons designers are that stupid.

Fwiw, Black Crusade has nerfed Astartes right to hell and back so that the choice between Astartes and cultist does not become a nobrainer, but even then their bolters do more damage.

If we are going to use outliers, of course, I have sources that say Marine weapons have fist-sized calibers, as well as the ever-popular Mach 180 Marines.

They are bigger because space marines are bigger. These are not power weapons. The size of the weapon has nothing to do with the power. The only thing that matters are the bolts, and they apear to use the same basic ones. It probably has great ammunition capacity, but that's about it.

Edit: also, what outliers? I haven't used a single example, thus not outlier.

Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Edit: also, what outliers? I haven't used a single example, thus not outlier.

Referred to Oxayotl.

That is... hilarious. That's almost as bad as the super shot marine.

Space Marines suffer from a constantly exaggerating background so they can continue to sounds super awesome and cool. They use to be around human height, then basketball player height ~7 feet, and sometimes I've seen them referenced around 8! Now GW has marked them as about 6 feet with this competition they're doing, so they're just all over the place.

Makes me wish GW had some lore specialists the way Blizzard does, then we wouldn't have need of these sorts of silly conversations.

Well if you want to make Space Marine more realistic here his the sad truth. You must do the same thing for all the other armies too. Your regular Eldar Aspect Warrior are more skilled than your regular Space Marine in their trade (so more WS and BS). You will have to raise their stats above that of your new and improve Space Marines (same thing for witches, incubis and others of the Dark Eldar). You will have to massively boost tyranid creatures. A hormagaunt is a vicious giant bug-like monster the size of a small horse or pony. Considering it's size, speed and origin. It should have enough strength to smash a truck in pieces (and yet they have the same strength stats then humen, tau and eldar). Just to give you an idea a teo feet tall juvenile chimp is far stronger than an adult male. Imagine now a silver-back gorilla (they are about 15 times stronger than a adult male). Tyranid warriors should be able to kill a Space Marine whithout much problem in close combat so can raveners, geenstealers, etc. Nobs and warbosses should have has much strength, endurence and skills than them if not more (and by warboss standards Space Marines are like flies). In fact even your most regular ork have a comparable toughness to a Space Marine. Space Marine armor and guns are identical to that of SoB they just have a different design and a few kinks in supplement like mag boots and more advance systems in their armor and bigger grips and stocks on their bolters (they even have the same brand, the Godwyn patern for Space Marines and the Godwyn-diaz for the SoB which is identical yet adpated for a humen grip). When it comes to raww skills I doubt that Space Marines are that much more trained than Sisters of Battles. Both of them are train from early infancy (the SoB by professionnal soldiers and Space Marine by their culture), both of them are selected from exceptionnal individuals and are further trained by heroes and champions, both of them can live for centuries (Space Marine due to their physiologie, SoB due to rejuvenat drugs and surgeries). So I think that it would be resonnable for them to have very similar WS and BS. Space Marine are very good, but so are their ennemies that's why their stats are comparable has for novels, it's like watching Die Hard and judge the combat skills of police officers compare to criminals and terrorist by observing the feats of John Maclain. Novel characters are special by their standards hell Gaunt killed a Khorn Berzerker with a chainsword no less.