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To celebrate the coming of the lord of end times, a friend of mine at my FLGS has been asking me for weeks to play against his army with Karl Franz Ascendant. And after looking at the rumors of what Archaon Everchosen stats/rules will look like I've been preparing my list both on paper and in miniatures for when End Times V hits the shelves. However I'm not sure if what I'm building is my best option to tackle the beatstick that Karl Franz is.

So... has anyone dealt with Karl Franz before? Any suggestions? Don't think I can tarpit him with his instant D3+1 wounds and 10 attacks. What should I be taking?

Edit: Oh yea, I NEED to field Archaon is kinda the point of having this match, so no matter his stats/points he is in.

Archaon's ET rules have no changes to his normal rules, aside from being a level 4 and unbreakable, I believe. Not seen them outside of blurry pics.

He still stands no chance against KFA. He's not got enough attacks to kill Karl, and Karl will destroy him.

This entire list is reliant on the hellcannon to do anything to Karl.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Archaon's ET rules have no changes to his normal rules, aside from being a level 4 and unbreakable, I believe. Not seen them outside of blurry pics.

He still stands no chance against KFA. He's not got enough attacks to kill Karl, and Karl will destroy him.

This entire list is reliant on the hellcannon to do anything to Karl.

Not really, with the End Times changes to mounts that makes Archaon a lot more resistant with 7 wounds, and still Karl Franz needs to hit Archaon first, which is in 5+'s due to MoN, and then wound on 3+, some debuffs on Karl's WS should bring him down to hits on 6's. Also, Karl isn't Unbreakable or stubborn, a charge from any warrior unit on the side would probably make him run.

But yeah, the hellcannon is there hoping for that 1 hit on turn one before he charges, and that is where I'm not sure if I should bring the grinder and skullcannon instead of the chimeras.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did the math as soon as I saw the leaked pics and iirc Archaon statistically Archaon should let him pretty much dead once he goes down, however Karl can just get lucky and hill him with 2 wounds.

The safest scenario is debuffing -4 Karl Franz's WS

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Archaon's ET rules have no changes to his normal rules, aside from being a level 4 and unbreakable, I believe. Not seen them outside of blurry pics.

He still stands no chance against KFA. He's not got enough attacks to kill Karl, and Karl will destroy him.

This entire list is reliant on the hellcannon to do anything to Karl.

Not really, with the End Times changes to mounts that makes Archaon a lot more resistant, and still Karl Franz needs to hit Archaon first, which is in 5+'s due to MoN, some debuffs on Karl's WS should bring him down to hits on 6's. Also, Karl isn't Unbreakable or stubborn, a charge from any warrior unit on the side would probably make him run.

But yeah, the hellcannon is there hoping for that 1 hit on turn one before he charges, and that is where I'm not sure if I should bring the grinder and skullcannon instead of the chimeras.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did the math as soon as I saw the leaked pics and iirc Archaon statistically Archaon should let him pretty much dead once he goes down, however Karl can just get lucky and hill him with 2 wounds.

The safest scenario is debuffing -4 Karl Franz's WS

Not really. Archaon goes in the unit of Crushers and has to challenge. Archaon will, on average last one round before dying. Karl Franz Ascended ruins Archaon unless Archaon unleashes his sword, which then averages up to 4 wounds. If he doesn't unleash it, Archie does 2 wounds. Hitting on 5s, KFA does 3 wounds, post multiple wounds. You're best off with the HKB Thirster.

This is a pretty theoretic scenario buuut.

Karl got:

10 attacks *(2/6) Chance to hit *(4/6) Chance to wound *(2/6) Chance for Archaon to miss his ward *(1.5+1) D3+1 wound factor. That is 2.11 wounds per round, again on paper Archie should last 4 rounds before reaching the 7th wound

Archie:

13 attacks, maybe 14 due to frenzy?, dunno since it's the first time IIRC that any model is allowed to be past 10 attacks *(4/6) chance to hit *(3/6) chance to wound *(3/6) chance for Karl to fail his ward, that gives me 2.88 wounds, which would need 4 rounds to reach the 10 wounds that Karl has.

Since the daemon within the sword is released 13 attacks with a *(1/6) chance to hit Archaon, and *(3/6) chance to wound, *(2/6) chance to fail his ward that is 0.16 more wound each round. Still needs 4 rounds to reach 7, but at the 3rd round it is on a close 6.83 wounds to Archaon.

When taking this into multiple rounds both characters reach their wounds on the 4th. Again this is in paper, but since Karl got that D3+1 wounds rule he can slain Archaon easier I won't argue that, but on paper it is a close match.

Aaaaaaaaanyway, so regarding the list and since I can't take Archaon out you suggest I field the HKB BT instead of the DP?, don't field the khorne cannon at all?

Archaon's capped at 13 attacks.

And you are aware that KFA wounds automatically and ignores armour saves, right? He doesn't roll to wound.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Archaon's capped at 13 attacks.

And you are aware that KFA wounds automatically and ignores armour saves, right? He doesn't roll to wound.

You need to re-check how The Armour of Morkar works.

And yeah I guessed that 13 was an exception to the 10 attacks rule and therefore couldn't go beyond but who knows until the book arrives.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Archaon's capped at 13 attacks.

And you are aware that KFA wounds automatically and ignores armour saves, right? He doesn't roll to wound.

You need to re-check how The Armour of Morkar works.

And yeah I guessed that 13 was an exception to the 10 attacks rule and therefore couldn't go beyond but who knows until the book arrives.

Fair point on the armour.

As for the attacks. The rule specifically states that he fights with 13 attacks. Now. The sword doubles his attacks. Frenzy gives him +1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you're maths is off for Archaon. 13 attacks * 66.7% is 8.671 hits. He's S5, to KFA's T5 results in 4.335 wounds before the 4++. He deals 2.1675 wounds.

KFA 3.33 hits. And then 2.75 wounds. Post wards, this becomes 1.83 wounds. After Multiple wounds D3, he does on average 2+1.(Discounting the .8)

I assume you will be wanting to play the Legion of the Everchosen when it comes out in End Times V? If so, then it shouldn't come down to a Fight between Karl and Archaon. Why? Because now you have Skaven on your side. Take 2 Warp Lightning Cannons, maybe 4 due to Grand Army rules and they should help mightily. Also consider taking a Grey Seer or the Stormbanner, Howling Warpgale is cast easily and effects the entire board much like the Stormbanner. All enemy models are at -1 to hit but more importantly, all war machines auto miss if they can't roll a 4+ during Warp Gale, while under Storm Banner is is -2 and effects your own models. Considering it effects the entire board this only gets better in big games.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Also, you're maths is off for Archaon. 13 attacks * 66.7% is 8.671 hits. He's S5, to KFA's T5 results in 4.335 wounds before the 4++. He deals 2.1675 wounds.

KFA 3.33 hits. And then 2.75 wounds. Post wards, this becomes 1.83 wounds. After Multiple wounds D3, he does on average 2+1.(Discounting the .8)

Yah, Archaon does 2.16 wounds per turn, messed up on the calculator.

KFA however only does 2.22 wounds, 3.33 hits times (4/6) 3.33*(66.7%)= 2.22. Post ward is 0.74 wounds not 1.83. And the D3 multiplier is actually calculated as 1.5, not 2, for chances even thou it can't roll a 1.5 it represents the average wounds on a D3 so 0.74*(1.5+1) = 1.85 wounds, which is actually lower than what i calculated previously (0.74*1.5)+1

Still would take KFA 4 rounds to kill archaon, but Archaon needs 5, still it isn't as huge ad you might think, letting KFA leave with 2 wounds left.



The skaven allies might sound good sadly I don't own any skaven models, only a few unassembled chaos daemons and my warriors

I'd take Hellcannons or Skullcannons (the khorne Daemon ones.) Hit KFA with them and he'll die eventually, he isn't that tough.

The rest of the Army is going to be regular empire, unless he is running a heavy cav force, KFA is going to be on his own without any real support.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I'd take Hellcannons or Skullcannons (the khorne Daemon ones.) Hit KFA with them and he'll die eventually, he isn't that tough.

The rest of the Army is going to be regular empire, unless he is running a heavy cav force, KFA is going to be on his own without any real support.

We recently played a storm of magic 2v2, 3000 pts + 25% each player and KFA was on the table, so I kinda know what he'll bring. There were, a big block of swordsmen with a BSB, some 20 greatswords with a warrior priest, 2 hellvolley blasters, a lvl 4 wizard of heavens and 10 knights, with the extra 500 pts I'll probably see 1 or 2 more cannons and more numbers on the knights, maybe a 2nd lvl 4 wizard.

If you wonder how KFA did, he died on the 1st turn, debuffed him with slaanesh cataclysm spell to reduce the model ld to 2, and then used a terrorgheist from my vampire count pact to scream at him. Was left with 3 wounds, and was in combat with a unit of warriors he charged on the 1st turn, I got a 2nd unit to charge him on the flank so he lost combat by 1 or something like that, killed a champion in challenge +5 wounds, he had 6 on the combat resolution, I had 3 ranks, BSB, banner, musician, charge, flank charge, so he ran and got killed by the pursuing units.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I'd take Hellcannons or Skullcannons (the khorne Daemon ones.) Hit KFA with them and he'll die eventually, he isn't that tough.

The rest of the Army is going to be regular empire, unless he is running a heavy cav force, KFA is going to be on his own without any real support.

We recently played a storm of magic 2v2, 3000 pts + 25% each player and KFA was on the table, so I kinda know what he'll bring. There were, a big block of swordsmen with a BSB, some 20 greatswords with a warrior priest, 2 hellvolley blasters, a lvl 4 wizard of heavens and 10 knights, with the extra 500 pts I'll probably see 1 or 2 more cannons and more numbers on the knights, maybe a 2nd lvl 4 wizard.

If you wonder how KFA did, he died on the 1st turn, debuffed him with slaanesh cataclysm spell to reduce the model ld to 2, and then used a terrorgheist from my vampire count pact to scream at him. Was left with 3 wounds, and was in combat with a unit of warriors he charged on the 1st turn, I got a 2nd unit to charge him on the flank so he lost combat by 1 or something like that, killed a champion in challenge +5 wounds, he had 6 on the combat resolution, I had 3 ranks, BSB, banner, musician, charge, flank charge, so he ran and got killed by the pursuing units.

Wow, that sounds like a 40K game. All you need is the perfect psychic power and allies.