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I am thinking of picking up some IK for my collection, I really like the models but I am concerned about getting them as people may not be happy with me bringing them in games, how bad are they to play against? I am mostly just talking the book as a whole not an AL formation.

Generally speaking, i do not like giant, centerpiece units. They often take up too much of the games focus, their invincibility or sudden death often being the most decisive factor. I prefer fighting with and against armies with many moving parts. There's just more action going on all around the table.
But that's just generally speaking (and why I voted no). Knights are still very cool models and they are not as imbalanced as some people think (although some armies will really really struggle). In larger point games, a few mini-titans wandering around adds to the fun. In smaller point games, check with your opponent to see if they would like to face one. As long as you aren't springing four knights on an unsuspecting player, it shouldn't make you a local pariah

Get one, you'll love it. It is an awesome model, and a surprisingly balanced unit.

SJ

Well If I wanted to be a pariah I would run 3 knights and a warhound on someone who had no idea, not thinking I would get a lot of games after that, unless it was one specific guy then I might get a positive rep.

One Knight is fine. I really think they should just be a generally available Imperial Lord of War choice.

The Adamantine Lance is absurdly broken, and while not totally unbeatable, is practically so for many armies, and doesn't lead to much fun.

so stay away from the lance formation in fun games, got it.

I want to run some as an army mainly because they look so damn cool. I would love to get some forgeworld ones, but those are not cheap, could buy 2 normal ones for the price of one of those.

When I use my Knights, I found the general rule to keeping it fun is no adamantium lance and no more than 3 knights. When I play 4 or more knights or when I use the adamantium lance is when things become less enjoyable for my opponent; it keeps things fun for everyone to self-impose those restrictions. I don't get anything out of my opponent saying "that's it" and calling it quits because I'm playing pure knights. By self-imposing those restriction, I take allies and my opponent gets to use his whole army.

Stay away from the Lance at all. The game struggled for a minute there about how to kill Knights but now their weaknesses are well known. Yes, some lists just can not handle them no matter how many turns the game is, other lists handle them by ignoring them, other lists kill them, but they aren't the 'be all end all' anymore.

I still say they're not fun to play against. Not hard to kill, not hard to stop, also not hard to lose against, but just not fun. I won't complain if one is there, but meh. I'm a killy sort of player and I don't like having to focus on a single thing instead of feed the meat grinder... (I need to start playing Khorne now that I read that back to myself...)

I like to krump baby titans with my Warhounds so I say bring them on!

I have warhounds but they don't see much play anymore, people complain to much even if i offer to bring 1 warhound vs there 1400 points.

Are knights really that bad? Would you not play against leman russ spam? aren't they essentially the same thing

sangheili wrote:
Are knights really that bad? Would you not play against leman russ spam? aren't they essentially the same thing

A Leman Russ is just a gun platform. Knights not only have similar firepower point for point, but much greater resiliency (roughly the same against shooting if you consider their 4++ invul, but are in a totally different league in CC survivability) and have multiple Strength D close combat attacks and Stomps, and get to move 12" a turn. Knights are way more mobile and have multiple attack vectors, whereas Leman Russ tanks are relatively static and are only ever going to shoot you.

sangheili wrote:
Are knights really that bad? Would you not play against leman russ spam? aren't they essentially the same thing

They really aren't that bad. There are loads of other things that are worse. The main issue people have is that unless they've geared their army to fight Knights so much of their army just can't do anything. This why I generally advise against Knight players playing more than 3 Knights... If you take allies it generally allows the other player to use their whole army. Knights are an extreme unit and just like any extreme unit it starts to erode the fun when a player uses them in excess.

 aka_mythos wrote:

sangheili wrote:
Are knights really that bad? Would you not play against leman russ spam? aren't they essentially the same thing

They really aren't that bad. There are loads of other things that are worse. The main issue people have is that unless they've geared their army to fight Knights so much of their army just can't do anything. This why I generally advise against Knight players playing more than 3 Knights... If you take allies it generally allows the other player to use their whole army. Knights are an extreme unit and just like any extreme unit it starts to erode the fun when a player uses them in excess.

I see. The reason I ask is because I got two for Christmas from the gf, and I'm getting a third one soon (I'm painting them DA colors, one green, black and bone.) And I really don't want to be that guy when I play someone.

Knights are certainly strong. But they've got a lot of limitations.

1) They only have 3 melee attacks, plus Stomps. Stomps aren't much good against anything with 3+ or better armor. That means the Knight has 3 attacks, which still have to hit, to kill at most 3 models. And they're only WS4.

2) Their firepower is good against single targets, but its not particularly impressive. 2 Battle Cannon shots or 1 Str9 melta.

3) They can easily get outswarmed. With only 3-5 models on the table they can find objective missions difficult to compete in.

4) A 4+ invuln is nice, but its only in one direction. Fast melta can find it easy enough to flank them. Knights also can still find cover easily enough, so the 4++ is sometimes superfluous.


First tournament after knights dropped ever. I was dreading facing off against Knights with my GKs. I played 4 rounds, 1 had no Knights, 2 were against Adamantium Lances. 1 against just 1 Knight. I found that Knights really don't like Thunderhammers, and they can't kill Terminators fast enough to save themselves.

I really like bringing 1 knight as an ally - for it's cost it seems to be very balanced though it is def a strong choice. I like it because it's a unit that your enemy can't ignore. 5 knights though - I can see that being dang near impossible for most armies to beat - even for mega death star armies. Get charged by 2 knights and you are a gonner.

Also my friends bring a lot of big apoc titans and gargantuan MC and the knight jsut seems to shred them all without much issue - I think some other titan type units could use a points reduction.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really like bringing 1 knight as an ally - for it's cost it seems to be very balanced though it is def a strong choice. I like it because it's a unit that your enemy can't ignore. 5 knights though - I can see that being dang near impossible for most armies to beat - even for mega death star armies. Get charged by 2 knights and you are a gonner.

Also my friends bring a lot of big apoc titans and gargantuan MC and the knight jsut seems to shred them all without much issue - I think some other titan type units could use a points reduction.

5 knights are that hard to beat only if you play for tabling your opponent or killpoints only. With multiple objectives on the table, the fact that you only have 5 units start to hurt.

LordBlades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really like bringing 1 knight as an ally - for it's cost it seems to be very balanced though it is def a strong choice. I like it because it's a unit that your enemy can't ignore. 5 knights though - I can see that being dang near impossible for most armies to beat - even for mega death star armies. Get charged by 2 knights and you are a gonner.

Also my friends bring a lot of big apoc titans and gargantuan MC and the knight jsut seems to shred them all without much issue - I think some other titan type units could use a points reduction.

5 knights are that hard to beat only if you play for tabling your opponent or killpoints only. With multiple objectives on the table, the fact that you only have 5 units start to hurt.

I always play to table anyways. It's why I always take battle cannon knights - they can blow up cheap objective grabbers at 72" range - then charge their backlines and remove their objectives in their own deployment zone. I always place my objectives in my assualt path too so really - objective games are a lot easier when you have a knight or knights IMO. They are great for removing things from objectives. I've never played with 5 knights, but I've played with 2. Objectives seem easy with knights.

 Xenomancers wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really like bringing 1 knight as an ally - for it's cost it seems to be very balanced though it is def a strong choice. I like it because it's a unit that your enemy can't ignore. 5 knights though - I can see that being dang near impossible for most armies to beat - even for mega death star armies. Get charged by 2 knights and you are a gonner.

Also my friends bring a lot of big apoc titans and gargantuan MC and the knight jsut seems to shred them all without much issue - I think some other titan type units could use a points reduction.

5 knights are that hard to beat only if you play for tabling your opponent or killpoints only. With multiple objectives on the table, the fact that you only have 5 units start to hurt.

I always play to table anyways. It's why I always take battle cannon knights - they can blow up cheap objective grabbers at 72" range - then charge their backlines and remove their objectives in their own deployment zone. I always place my objectives in my assualt path too so really - objective games are a lot easier when you have a knight or knights IMO. They are great for removing things from objectives. I've never played with 5 knights, but I've played with 2. Objectives seem easy with knights.

It depends of course what kind of objective grabbers are we taking about and the table setup (cover and LOS blocking terrain), but removing objective grabbers exclusively by battle cannon shots is not always that easy. (jet)bikes, skimmers, outflanking or deep striking infantry that consists of more than a few models and finds some cover are all cases that will likely require several knights or rounds of shooting to remove.

Also, against most semi-competent armies, the 2 knights that are not part of AdLance aren't extremely difficult to remove.

Honestly, I feel there are a ton of other more useful support options for AdLance than 2 more knights.

sangheili wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

sangheili wrote:
Are knights really that bad? Would you not play against leman russ spam? aren't they essentially the same thing

They really aren't that bad. There are loads of other things that are worse. The main issue people have is that unless they've geared their army to fight Knights so much of their army just can't do anything. This why I generally advise against Knight players playing more than 3 Knights... If you take allies it generally allows the other player to use their whole army. Knights are an extreme unit and just like any extreme unit it starts to erode the fun when a player uses them in excess.

I see. The reason I ask is because I got two for Christmas from the gf, and I'm getting a third one soon (I'm painting them DA colors, one green, black and bone.) And I really don't want to be that guy when I play someone.

I am thinking of getting some to supliment my DA as well though I will probably go with a red/black/white/gold scheme to match my warhound. They seem very powerful but very killable for most armies I can understand where tyranids(cause they kind of suck at killing tanks) may struggle against a large number of knights.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

sangheili wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

sangheili wrote:
Are knights really that bad? Would you not play against leman russ spam? aren't they essentially the same thing

They really aren't that bad. There are loads of other things that are worse. The main issue people have is that unless they've geared their army to fight Knights so much of their army just can't do anything. This why I generally advise against Knight players playing more than 3 Knights... If you take allies it generally allows the other player to use their whole army. Knights are an extreme unit and just like any extreme unit it starts to erode the fun when a player uses them in excess.

I see. The reason I ask is because I got two for Christmas from the gf, and I'm getting a third one soon (I'm painting them DA colors, one green, black and bone.) And I really don't want to be that guy when I play someone.

I am thinking of getting some to supliment my DA as well though I will probably go with a red/black/white/gold scheme to match my warhound. They seem very powerful but very killable for most armies I can understand where tyranids(cause they kind of suck at killing tanks) may struggle against a large number of knights.

I don't play nids but at least on paper 2-3 flyrants with grubs should minve knights decently, especially since they can flank easily to bypass the shield.

3 could potentialy kill a single knight if they use all of their shooting on it but your talking almost double the points to possibly kill 1. If he uses the shield on the facing the hive tyrants are on they will each have a .444% chance to glance with 1 devourer and a slightly better chance to take off 1 hull point with the flamer.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
3 could potentialy kill a single knight if they use all of their shooting on it but your talking almost double the points to possibly kill 1. If he uses the shield on the facing the hive tyrants are on they will each have a .444% chance to glance with 1 devourer and a slightly better chance to take off 1 hull point with the flamer.

I'd expect several flyrants to attack from different directions to maximize their mobility advantage, so usually no more than one should face the shield.

Forgetting about the shield for the moment each devourer would strip ~0.889% hull points. so with 3 assuming all 3 flame throwers can reach and don't roll a 1 on the table and that the shield is facing away from all 3 hive tyrants and that the hive tyrants were all able to get into a side or rear firing arc and that there is nothing to give a cover save, you would take off on average 5.519 hull points. So while it may 1 round the knight you are spending a lot of firepower to try and not increadibly likely to kill.

I think like most big ridiculous things, one is just fine.

1 is hardly that big a deal

Its like trying to kill two wave snakes

Bring 3 and well it just gets dull as you nullfied all your opponents infantry weapons.

One big box is a Target.

Two big boxes are a Tactic.

Three (or more) big boxes are a Strategy, because with that many point tied up into large units, you need to have good planning.

SJ