Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With all the eldar and space marine armies that are circulating in the competitive scene, what are some off meta units that do well to counter space marines, eldar, and then both that you can think of? Thanks!

Green tide doesn't give a gak how many scatter lasers you brought.

Also, play Maelsrom missions.

Also, also, Summon 100 daemons. Summon them all!

I've had some luck with CSM with Huron (master of deception WT) 3 15-20 man tactical squads, and then the rest of the list being "standard" .

Kinda messes with your battle plan when 45-60 marines are just outside of rapid-fire range, blocking you off from moving to the other half of the board.

DONT play Maesltrom! Gladius is a thing, remember?

SGTPozy wrote:
DONT play Maesltrom! Gladius is a thing, remember?

Ah, yeah. Space Marine MSU with high mobility.

Could always just be an awful human and run minimal ground forces and bring in a crap ton of air units and bomb the whole board with D weaons, or S10 templates.

Necrons do pretty good. Decurion has tough MSU in the form of Canoptek Harvests and Destroyer cult.
You can run an 1850 Decurion with 2 Harvest and 1 cult. Should be pretty good at taking out all those Rhinos, not caring about Grav or Scatter spam, and I have personally taken out Wraithknights with Canoptek Wraiths.

Also Daemons do pretty good here. Whether you take Flesh hound spam, Tetrad, other FMC spam or some other variant of Daemons, they do fairly well against Eldar or Marines. The problem is that Daemons are a more experienced players army and dependent on random rolls. Some builds can actually be quite horrible vs Eldar. Their are too many variables to say 1 kind of list does best, but I can say from personal experience that Daemons do quite well vs Eldar (and I know both armies extensively as I have played both for over 7 years now)

 kronk wrote:
Green tide doesn't give a gak how many scatter lasers you brought.

Also, play Maelsrom missions.

Also, also, Summon 100 daemons. Summon them all!

Well I can't talk about Daemons but as far as Green tide goes? Green tide cares a good deal about how many scatter lasers you bring. bare minimum green tide is 101 models. 100 boyz and a warboss. But lets say you equip it with a bit of stuff that makes sense. So give it 5-10 Nobz with PK and give the Warboss a PK and eavy armor, then put in a 2nd warboss with DLS and a Painboy from another formation.


So 95 boyz, 5 nobz with PK, 2 Warbosses with PK 1 with DLS and a painboy comes to a grand total of just under 1030pts.

For 1030pts an Eldar player can take 38 Scatbikes. thats 38x4 = 152 shots. at BS4 meaning 100 shots will hit. Wounding on 2s = 83 wounds. Lets assume EVERY one of those 83 wounds gets a 4+ cover save. thats 41 FNPs which reduces that down to about 28 dead orks.

In other words those Eldar scat bikes delete 1/3rd to 1/4th of a green tide EVERY TURN. But your right, green tide doesn't care about scat bikes.

And if your going to come back with the nonsense that this never happens? well I played a game exactly like this. Except it was physically impossible for me to get 4+ cover with all my models so it was closer to 50 dead orks a turn.

 kronk wrote:
Green tide doesn't give a gak how many scatter lasers you brought.

Also, play Maelsrom missions.

Also, also, Summon 100 daemons. Summon them all!

Are you kidding? Scatterbikes laugh at Green Tide...

IA1v2 has some nice toys in it - the 145 pt 7" barrage lascannon on the Manticore battery has its place, as does the vintage 125 pt Vendetta.

Of course the Wyvern is always a joy to have and if you can swing LOS blocking terrain (i.e. bring your own in the form of fortifications) then a twin linked/ignores cover Emprah's wrath formation has a lot to offer.

anything blobby to deny space to droppods/movement to eldarrs.
also might bind an Imperial/Wraith-Knight for a round or three.

other than that, dunno, maybe that C'Tan in the opening pyramid, whats it called.

Against Eldar, you can use Sicarans, though they're not really off-meta. I've used Cypher and Chosen with power swords and loads of Cultists against GSFs with limited success. Cultists can prevent drop pods coming down in your DZ while Cypher et al hit and run them to death. Cultists are also good against grav, so GSFs geared up to fight IK may struggle. Cypher isn't ideal, but it's something I managed to even out the playing field a little, even if I didn't level it.

I do think Kharn and Cypher together may be an expensive counter against Libby Conclave, as Kharn always hits on 2+ anyway.

 kronk wrote:
Green tide doesn't give a gak how many scatter lasers you brought.

Also, play Maelsrom missions.

Also, also, Summon 100 daemons. Summon them all!

No, Maelstrom is what SMs and Eldar excel at.

 kronk wrote:
Green tide doesn't give a gak how many scatter lasers you brought.

Also, play Maelsrom missions.

Also, also, Summon 100 daemons. Summon them all!

He asked for something that can counter them.

Orks are just so bad dude...

At 1k points, how many scat bikes can be fielded? Rather curious how well one of my fluffy lists would do.

2x Tervigons
150x termagants.

1x Warlock Windrider
35x Scatbikes

Warlock hides.
35 bikes = 140 shots = 93.33 hits =
no cover/fnp = 77.78 dead gaunts
6+ cover = 64.81 dead gaunts
6+ cover + FNP = 43.21 dead gaunts
5+ cover or FNP = 51.85 dead gaunts
5+ cover + FNP = 34.57 dead gaunts

So yeah within 3 turns all your initial gaunts are dead...

At 1k, seeing as that's the standard we seem to be using:

2 Icarus Dunecrawlers
w/ Smoke launchers and Cognis autocannons.
[270 pts]

4 10-man Skitarii Vanguard squads
w/ 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex.
[620 pts]

1 5-man Skitarii Vanguard squad (Warlord)
w/ Omniscent Mask, Refractor field, Arc Pistol, Arc Maul.
[110 pts]

Anti-Wraithknight?
Check.
Anti-Air?
Oh aye.
Cover redux?
Absolutely.
Lots of bodies?
Yep.
Anti-Vehicle?
Sure thing.

Short ranges, sure, but typically you're on 2x2 boards at these points anyway.
Just bubblewrap the Dunecrawlers with the vanguard and trapse up the board.
Keeping as many vanguard within 6" of a crawler's base edge is, pretty much, giving you a fearless blob (LD 10).

 kronk wrote:
Green tide doesn't give a gak how many scatter lasers you brought.

Any form of a ork horde army including a green tiide actually cares a lot about massed High str crap ap shots. It makes them go poof. This is to sum up what went wrong in the 6th and 7th edition. Anti vehicle became suddenly horrible effective vs hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What might help is playing a tournament with kill points missions and spam flyers like the ground is hot lava.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
At 1k, seeing as that's the standard we seem to be using:

2 Icarus Dunecrawlers
w/ Smoke launchers and Cognis autocannons.
[270 pts]

4 10-man Skitarii Vanguard squads
w/ 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex.
[620 pts]

1 5-man Skitarii Vanguard squad (Warlord)
w/ Omniscent Mask, Refractor field, Arc Pistol, Arc Maul.
[110 pts]

Anti-Wraithknight?
Check.
Anti-Air?
Oh aye.
Cover redux?
Absolutely.
Lots of bodies?
Yep.
Anti-Vehicle?
Sure thing.

Short ranges, sure, but typically you're on 2x2 boards at these points anyway.
Just bubblewrap the Dunecrawlers with the vanguard and trapse up the board.
Keeping as many vanguard within 6" of a crawler's base edge is, pretty much, giving you a fearless blob (LD 10).

WAT?

2x2 boards? even a 500 points match is on a 4x4 board!

2x2 boards -> he is probably playing on 4 of those wobbly model inducing 2'x2' gw plates.

Khorne skull thrones are devestating against these armies imo.

1. Cheap at 125 points.
2. Decent at cc and cannot be hurt by a marine or bike rider.
3. Has an invuln, no rider, av 12, and a chariot makes it tough as nails.
4. FAST.
5. S8 ignore cover large blast is fuuuuun.

Against grav spam and scat bikes this thing wrecks face. (Cannot be immobilized and can catch bikes in assault.

 oldzoggy wrote:
2x2 boards -> he is probably playing on 4 of those wobbly model inducing 2'x2' gw plates.

Correct.


Keeping the discussion going: What's typically the Meta for anti-pansie and wood chipping?
(Ignoring the [obvious?] Eldar and SM themselves)

I'm seeing alot of Daemons being mentioned, as if they are actually the go-to, but they're not top-dollar in Tournaments, where, I'm thinking, it'd be productive of this thread to also produce counters to Tau and the other oft-picked armies.

Tau can hold their own against eldar and sm. So can orks with a cheezy FW stompa if it's allowed.

Lets split things up to clarify this discussion.

Scenario 1: your "competitive" meta isn't really that cutting edge competitive -> All sorts of unusual builds can be possible to beat the top armies. You just need to find a way to evade the effectiveness of your local meta's shooting power. Most forum users here might have some ideas on how to do this.

Scenario 2: Your "competitive" meta is the cutting edge meta of "no holdbacksies lists". In this case you are really asking the question: "How can I build a list that will win all big tournaments, in an original way ?" You are free to ask that question of course. Just don't expect a useful answer of your average gamer or forum user. This is the holy grail all tournament players are looking for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looking at the tournament results of major event will show you just how bunk most of the suggestions are for a truly cut-throat competitive environment. For example if green tides or wrongly priced stompas where really the meta breaking counter at the moment then you should see those list popping up regularly in the top 10 of major tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are better of checking these event results and trying to figure out what they fielded if you truly want to know what is currently beating SM and Eldar major events (just make sure to skipp the minor events). Spoiler it isn't hat original at all.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016-itc-event-results/

 koooaei wrote:
Tau can hold their own against eldar and sm. So can orks with a cheezy FW stompa if it's allowed.

Eldar can kill a Stompa in one shooting attack from a Wraithknight, or with wraithguard or with D artillery, or with haywire, or with Firedragons. Even though the FW stompa is cheap, it is still relatively weak in shooting.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Lets split things up to clarify this discussion.

Scenario 1: your "competitive" meta isn't really that cutting edge competitive -> All sorts of unusual builds can be possible to beat the top armies. You just need to find a way to evade the effectiveness of your local meta's shooting power. Most forum users here might have some ideas on how to do this.

Scenario 2: Your "competitive" meta is the cutting edge meta of "no holdbacksies lists". In this case you are really asking the question: "How can I build a list that will win all big tournaments, in an original way ?" You are free to ask that question of course. Just don't expect a useful answer of your average gamer or forum user. This is the holy grail all tournament players are looking for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looking at the tournament results of major event will show you just how bunk most of the suggestions are for a truly cut-throat competitive environment. For example if green tides or wrongly priced stompas where really the meta breaking counter at the moment then you should see those list popping up regularly in the top 10 of major tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are better of checking these event results and trying to figure out what they fielded if you truly want to know what is currently beating SM and Eldar major events (just make sure to skipp the minor events). Spoiler it isn't hat original at all.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016-itc-event-results/

+1

As a green tide player who switched to daemons so he could actually win events. This is the truth. I ran the green tide naked(only painboy and weirdboy) so I could fit in a screamer star and fateweaver into an 1850. I was almost always the highest placed ork player with that because I would use warpflame to buff their fnp and misfortune to kill anything that needed AP 2. The only way Green tide actually can resist that many shots when is to have a 3+ FNP. I beat a couple 30 scat bike lists.

But now I play Daemons, which is really the answer to this thread. It's not really "Meta breaking" at all though like oldzoggy hinted at. It's just the other best army. Space marine grav beats (often) eldar, eldar psychic dice and alpha strike beat daemon(often), and daemons lack of saves beats (often) space marine grav.

That's how I see the meta anyone. I haven't won any huge events but I reliably place in 40 person events and have beaten people on Team USA so I feel somewhat qualified to judge the current meta.

How did you pull the warpflameing of your own controlled "enemies" off ? As far as I know you aren't allowed to target them.

Beams don't target

SemperMortis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Tau can hold their own against eldar and sm. So can orks with a cheezy FW stompa if it's allowed.

Eldar can kill a Stompa in one shooting attack from a Wraithknight, or with wraithguard or with D artillery, or with haywire, or with Firedragons. Even though the FW stompa is cheap, it is still relatively weak in shooting.

Well, good luck to them. Sure, they CAN kill a stompa with a d-knight. But than it needs a 6. And when would it get it? Most likely by the 3-d turn. But you're allready in their face by that time. And he'd also need to down void shields first if you're playing a buzzgob stompa. Basically, if he only focuses on a stompa, your bikes and bully boyz and whatever will screw him up. What if you go first?

So, it's random. If he doesn't get a 6, you're fine, basically.

There is still haywire, dragons, guard, not to mention eldar regularly take more than one wk. Not to mention a melee wk can still one round it if it gets even slightly lucky, and eldar are possibly the best army in the game at removing the bubble of orbs surrounding a stompa.

The stompa isn't good because it has armor values. Same reason the Knights aren't considered op but merely good. The WK and tau MCs are amazing because of their mc typing, which provides a host of bonuses in surviving. The wk being crazy cheap is just icing on the cake.

Grav also knocks the stompa over quite easily

Edit
Not to mention the stompa costs more. You can't compare stompa plus other units versus just a wk...a wk is good but it won't take out 3x its points.

I have had mixed luck with Cyclopia Cabal and Daemon Engine pack, backed up with spamming cultists and plague marines depending on the points.

I mind control a WK, shoot the other WK, turbo boost out of LOS, rinse and repeat.eventually it boils down to which cards did I draw. in Eternal war, this won't work we well, but can make your opponent really upset. If you face knights, then your kinda screwed, but no more so than you would've been playing CSM in the first place.