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All hail heretics of this world! The time has come to march together against the Empire!
But before that... some list building.

For now, this is below the core of my army, running 1172 points. I'm seeking advise for what to add. I have already come to the conclusion that taking all this in an Unending host detachment with 6x15 units of Renegades (90 total) that come back on 2+ with outflank, each with militia training and three meltas (18 total), is one of the best list one can imagine. I played it and have never lose with it. The problem is that this army is about 210 models, so it's too long to play in most tournaments. I'm looking for alternatives.

Here is the core.

*****
1 Ordnance Tyrant with Nurgle covenant and his command squad (110), with Banner of hate for moral tests.
60 Zombies in 3-6 units (180), protecting my artillery.

4 Medusae artillery in 2 units (360) => 48’’ s10 ap1 Heavy 1, Armorbane, Blast (3'') at BS3
4 Quad launcher in 2-4 units (120) => 12’’-60’’ s5 ap5 Barrage 4, Pinning (-1Ld), Blast (3’’) at BS2
3 Wyverns (165) => 48’’ s6 ap4 Barrage '4', Shred, ignores cover, Blast (3’’) at BS2

9 Laser destroyers in 3 units (237) => 36’’ s9 ap2 Ordnance 1, twin-linked at BS3 (not bad anti-air)
*****

What to do with the 678 points left? Obviously, I need mobility and objective grabbers, so I'm thinking
12 spawns in 3 units (220) => would allied Nurglings be better (same price)?
So there are 458 points left.

I have thought of
A. Even more artillery
3 Eartshakers in 3 units => 36-240'' s9 ap3 Ordnance 1, Barrage (3'')
6 Gryffon in 2 units => 12-48'' s6 ap4 Ordnance 1, Barrage (5''), maybe Pinning
(Other possibilities : Executioner Leman Russ without Gets hot, Banewolf with Chem cannon, more Laser destroyers, etc.)

B. CSM allies
Warpsmith (-1 cover save to one terrain piece)
2 mutilators in 2 units, deep striking for grabbing objectives
2 Predator with plasma destroyer => 36'' s7 ap2 Heavy 3, Blast (3'')
(The torrent s4 ap3 relic could be interesting and also the Legacy of the ruin to re-roll seize initiative)

C. Daemon allies
3 Heralds of Tzeentch (9WC)
11 Horrors (2WC)
Aegis Defense line

D. Necron allies
1 Lord with solar staff (=invisible for one turn)
5 immortals (tesla or gauss)
2 Sentry Death Ray Pylons => 24'' (+3d6 line) s10 ap1 (4 hits per model under the line)

My personal favrotie is the last one, but I'm not sure it's the best one.
Whatever the choice, I am right to think a Skyshield would be good for the large 4++ area? Or a Void Shield Generator?

What do you think?

I'm slowly building a list similar to yours... Here are my main units of choice:

Firebase units:
Wyverns, quad launchers + RLDs you've alread got
Griffons - 35pts per chimera chassis is highly survivable, and the ordnance weapon is effective against vehicles with AV11 or lower sides + infantry
Earthshaker Platforms - again decent survivabilityand firepower for 55pts
A hydra or two for some dedicated anti-air

Advancing units
20-man infantry squads with militia training, a sigil and a melta bomb. Provide some cheap volume fire and tie up things in the mid table.
Spawn - I'd consider even more of these than you suggested!

And plague zombies as a tarpit screen for your guns. Have you considered running these in a CAD for obsec?

Out of your ally options I think the daemons add most to your list - summoning in whatever suits to match up against your opponent.

If it helps, here is my list I'm building towards currently:

Purge 576pts

• Command squad with ordnance tyrant + nurgle covenant 85pts
• Wyvern 55pts
• Wyvern 55pts
• Wyvern 55pts
• Earthshaker with 1 crew extra 58pts
• Earthshaker with 1 crew extra 58pts
• 2 Griffons 70pts
• 2 Griffons 70pts
• 2 Griffons 70pts
• Hydra with training 70pts
• Hydra with training 70pts

Purge 646pts

• Command squad with autocannon 55pts
• 3 spawn 55pts
• 3 spawn 55pts
• 3 spawn 55pts
• 3 spawn 55pts
• 3 spawn 55pts
• 3 Rapier laser destroyers with training + 3 extra crew 79pts
• 3 Rapier laser destroyers with training + 3 extra crew 79pts
• 3 Rapier laser destroyers with training + 3 extra crew 79pts
• 3 Rapier laser destroyers with training + 3 extra crew 79pts

CAD 655pts

• Command squad with autocannon 55pts
• 20 zombies 60pts
• 10 zombies 30pts
• 10 zombies 30pts
• 10 zombies 30pts
• Infantry platoon
20 men with lasguns, sigil + vox, militia training + melta bombs 90pts
20 men with lasguns, sigil + vox, militia training + melta bombs 90pts
20 men with lasguns, 2 autocannons, militia training, sigil, vox 100pts

If you want to take Daemons, you could go with a large group of Screamers and a Herald on a Disc with the Paradox. You will cast a WC 3 power at 100% chance with only 5 dice with that thing, so you don't need as many Warp Charges to summon with.

So it seems Daemon would be the best option. It's just that 11WC is not that much, but maybe I'm wrong. I've never played psykers myself.
I know it good be good though... but it's a costly ($) investment, since I need the unit I'll summon.

you could go with a large group of Screamers and a Herald on a Disc with the Paradox

Are you suggesting I should take only one Herald?

@DoomMouse
Thanks for sharing your list. Yes it's very similar to mine!
-- Gryffons are great and have the mobility advantage over the Quad launchers. I hear people love them. But from a pure firepower point of view, I think Quad launchers are better. Besides, I don't see them in your list though you said there were part of your firebase.
-- Have you used the Hydra with great effect? Ap4 is so lackluster. Now that Ordnance weapons can snapfire (new FAQ), the Rapiers are not bad for anti-air with twin-linked weapons. That way, you could drop one purge detachment and save points (two HQ instead of 3, which are a tax imo).
-- Do you think 60 zombies is enough to protect my artillery and hold some objectives? I'v never played my army without my 90 resurrecting renegades (plus my zombies), so I'm afraid it won't be enough. I see that your list includes 110 infantry models. Would you go below that number? (I play the zombies in a CAD, it's too good!)
-- What is your opinion about the medusa siege cannon? I even use Breacher shells to be sure to crack those Imperial Knight to DEATH and because last time 36'' wasn't enough; but maybe Earthshakers are better.
-- No Banner of Hate?
-- Can you talk more about the spawns? I've never used them yet, but I'm planning to buy Plague toads for spawn model, it will be cool!

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

you could go with a large group of Screamers and a Herald on a Disc with the Paradox

Are you suggesting I should take only one Herald?

Yes, If you take a level 3 Herald on a disc with 9 screamers and 17 horrors to fill out your allied detachment, you're only down 523 points. This nets you 6 Warp Charges (you still get 1d6 Warp Charges extra) and you can get off a summon power with 100% chance for only 5 Warp Charges. That means that every turn, you have 2-7 Warp Charges left. That's either another summoning spell (if you are lucky enough to get the right power) or some Flickering Fire.

In your set-up, you still have enough to add in another Herald or even add some extra artillery. Remember that the herald with his group can move 36" every turn (12" move and 24" turbo boost, even when he shot flickering fire) and drop summoned daemons whever he goes. If he drops Screamers, that's even better, because they can turbo boost over another unit in the turn they arrive and do their fly-over attack.

Vraks Spawns are doubleplusgood. It is never wrong to take as many as possible.

Nurgle deamons would be a good compliment. A Herald or two, Plaguebearers to advance and soak up enemy fire and the FA jetpack guys. But that would mean a lot of models, that you wanted to avoid.

Slaanesh deamons are fast and cheap. A Herald with Steed, some Daemonettes and an outflanking FA squad (with the Herald) and you can start claiming objectives. But a lot of models.

Tanks? Give the opponent AV14 to struggle with. Add some MC Spawns for threat overload.

In most cases I think it would be better to use your zombies to put pressure on the opponent than keeping them around your artillery.

Thank you Hansisaf, I will think about it!

In most cases I think it would be better to use your zombies to put pressure on the opponent than keeping them around your artillery.

What should I put to protect them?

I'm leaning more and more toward a pure Renegade force though. I'll post two new lists soon. The ultimate artillery and the ultimate infantry.

I think you're right that in terms of raw firepower, the quad mortars do win out slightly. I think it's a pretty close contest though, with certain targets being better for griffons and some being better for the quad mortars. I think they're so similar in terms of points and abilities, there's little to really recommend one over the other and I'd happily use either. The main reason I'm running griffons is as I already have quite a few of the things.

Quad mortar advantages: 5pts cheaper, better firepower against most targets, perhaps a little tougher to take out with shooting?

Griffon advantages: mobility for late game objectives, free heavy chem flamer for if enemy get too close, tougher to take out in CC, can be used to screen units from LOS, invulnerable to leadership issues, better against 4+ save infantry and AV12 side-armour vehicles

I've probably had more luck with my hydras than I really ought to have had over the years so I might be a little biased... I particularly like the way the FW hydras ignore jink saves, so can knock out darkshrouds and jinking FMCs more easily. If RLDs can snap fire then it'd make the choice a bit harder. Do you think they can? The GW FAQ for some reason specifically referred to ordnance weapons on vehicles (not mentioning artillery). I could see it being argued the other way RAW, unless either FW or GW FAQ the issue (which might never happen!) I imagine most people would play it as they could snap fire though.

I agree that the command squads are just a tax. If you took my list and swapped the griffons for quad mortars (taken as troops in the purge detachment) then it'd fit into two detachments. This would probably be better really, but I do have a lot of griffons already so I'll probably keep it as it is personally. I imagine you'd be able to fit yours into two though

I do like my hordes too. My guard list has around 180 guardsmen in it (mainly conscripts!). I'd say that on balance the amount our lists have is sufficient. The artillery should be able to rapidly destroy any large/ high-rate-of-fire units that'd be able to power through that many zombies/spawn/guardsmen. The spawn themselves are pretty tough little units as they go with 9 T5 wounds for 55pts.

It might just be personal preference again but I prefer the earthshakers to the medusa platforms. I'd rather use more templates to hull-point out vehicles. Ideally I'd have more earthshakers, but it's hard to choose which to invest in. Knights do worry me a bit to be fair though and your medusas would help address that. Not sure I'd bother with the breacher shells - the increased range is nice but you lose a lot of blast area for it. S10 ordnance should usually at least glance most AV14 (though it will lose a 1/6 chance of the explodes result). I'd not pay for it myself...

I can't say I'd considered the banner of hate actually. I can see it'd be pretty good for keeping your artillery core in place. I guess I'm using more vehicles than you, so it'd be more relevant in your list. My intention is to try and avoid LD tests where possible by just putting one guardsmen in front of my rapiers/earthshakers per turn so as not to trigger a LD check if and when they die. I kind of dislike making a 5 guardsman unit too point-heavy as well. Don't want to give enemies any more reason to try and target the ordnance tyrant warlord!

The spawn are shock troops and units I'll send round the flanks to capture far objectives. I'm going to be using fenrisian wolves to proxy them. Can't say I've used them in games much yet, but they look pretty good on paper. They're reasonably tough, fearless, and can make a mess of weaker units in CC. I wouldn't be adverse to throwing a couple of units into melee with an MC or walker to tie them up for a few turns if necessary.

Hope some of that helped. Your ideas have definitely made me rethink things a bit for my list. I find making R + H lists fun but tough as there's just so many decent units vying for the spots haha

Thanks for your comments! It's very helpful.

The GW FAQ for some reason specifically referred to ordnance weapons on vehicles (not mentioning artillery).

I think the FAQ mentions vehicles because it's the example used in the question submitted to them. I admit its says nothing about other unit types though. I'll write to them.
(https://www.facebook.com/1575682476085719/photos/a.1576243776029589.1073741828.1575682476085719/1610526809267952/?type=3&theater)

Don't want to give enemies any more reason to try and target the ordnance tyrant warlord!

Are you saying you let your Warlord in the command squad?! He has the Independent character rule. I deploy it with a unit of medusae as a bunker.

Not sure I'd bother with the breacher shells - the increased range is nice but you lose a lot of blast area for it.

Right now I'm also taking militia training on the medusae because the blast from breacher shells is smaller. If I'd stick to the 5'' Blast, do you think I need the training?

-- If I'd play the griffons, I think It would be in a unit of 5 for a cheap moving wall. It would also be from Imperial Armour 13 : in that book, their weapon is named differently and have the Pinning rule (not in Siege of Vraks). This means a CAD, not allowing me to take 5x1.

-- Other question : do you often have the occasion to use the ordnance tyrant ability to shoot in units locked in close combat?

***

So I' trying to compare lists with Master of the horde and Ordnance tyrant. Look at this two lists that clocks at 1847pts. I have underlined the units that are proper to each list for easier comparison. It amounts to a 500 pts of different units.

What is better?
1 extra Command squad with 6 'resurrecting-with-outflank' units of 15 obj. sec. models, a total of 90 men with 6 BS3 meltas and 9 chemical flamers that will benefit from a Promethium pipeline (which will also give good cover to my army)
OR
6 Quad launchers (24 small blasts) plus 5 Gryffons, plus 15 zombies, all protected by a Void Shield Generator, plus the ability to fire barrage in enemy units locked in close combat. (It could be other units. This list is more flexible.)
?

Before writing this, I thought the first option was the best, but now I'm not so sure.
I'll try and retry both, that's for sure!

Here are the complete lists.

List #1
Master of the Horde 1847
Unending host detachment from Siege of Vraks 385
Command squad with Nurgle Master of the Horde, Banner 100
10 zombies 30
10 zombies 30
10 zombies 30
10 zombies 30
3 wyverns 165

Purge detachment from Siege of Vraks 700
Command squad and 1 lascannon 65
3 spawns 55
3 spawns 55
3 spawns 55
1 earthshaker 55
1 earthshaker 55
2 medusae with breacher shells and training 180
2 medusae with breacher shells and training 180

Combined arm detachment 722
Command squad with 1 lascannon 65
15 men with lasguns, 2 chemical flamers and Sigil 60
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 80
15 men with lasguns, 2 meltas, training and Sigil 80
15 men with lasguns, 2 meltas, training and Sigil 80
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79

Fortification 40
Promethium pipes 40

List #2
Ordnance Tyrant 1847
Purge detachment from Siege of Vraks 1000
Command squad with Nurgle Ordnance Tyrant, Banner and 1 lascannon 130
1 quad launcher 30
1 quad launcher 30
1 quad launcher 30
1 quad launcher 30
1 quad launcher 30
1 quad launcher 30
5 gryffons (in 1-5 units) 165
1 wyvern 55
1 wyvern 55
1 wyvern 55
2 medusae with breacher shells and training 180
2 medusae with breacher shells and training 180

Purge detachment from Siege of Vraks 747
Command squad with Command net vox and 1 lascannon 70
3 spawns 55
3 spawns 55
3 spawns 55
20 zombies 60
20 zombies 60
15 zombies 45
1 earthshaker 55
1 earthshaker 55
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79

Fortification 100
Void Shield Generator 100

Any1 thought of getting kdk heralds and then putting them in your artillery to generate blood tithe?

Any1 thought of getting kdk heralds and then putting them in your artillery to generate blood tithe?

Yes I thought about it with an ADL. The units go to ground with a 2+ cover save, then the fearless characters join them to negate Go to Ground penalties.

I'm just not sure it pays off. At best I could summon a Bloodthirster at the beginning of turn 3 and 5. Is it that good an investment? They are worth 500 points, which is the cost of the KDK detachment. How do you think it will benefit my army?

Here's a sample list (without ADL though)

1849
Purge detachment from Siege of Vraks 1351
Command squad with Nurgle Ordnance Tyrant, Banner and lascannon 130
3 quad launchers 90
3 quad launchers 90
3 spawns 55
3 spawns 55
3 wyverns with heavy chemical flamers 165
2 medusae with training 170
2 medusae with training 170
2 earthshakers 110
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79
3 Rapier laser destroyers with training, one extra crew 79

Combined arm detachment from KDK 498
1 Chaos Lord 75
1 Chaos Lord 75
8 cultists 58
8 cultists 58
8 cultists 58
8 cultists 58
8 cultists 58
8 cultists 58

Furthermore, when comparing this list to the one using the Unending host, the question is :
Is the KDK detachment (498pts) better than this (for example)?

495pts
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
20 men with lasguns, 3 meltas, training and Sigil 105
20 men with lasguns, 3 meltas, training and Sigil 105
20 men with lasguns, 3 meltas, training and Sigil 105
all of which can 'resurrect' in Ongoing reserve with outflank. This is also potentially a free 500pts (=2 Bloodthirsters) if it all resurrect.
What do you think?

I dont believe you can have both Ordnance Tyrant and Master of The Horde in an army.

And where exactly does it say that the resurrecting infantry platoons gain obj sec in the Unending Host Detachment?

@RenegadeKorps, Are you sure that the 15 men Infantry platoon squads belonging to the CAD get the resurrecting power if they are not under the Unending Host Detachment? The Unending Host detachment clearly states that the models belonging under Unending Host gains the 3++ cover if being obscured by other models from the Unending Host not other models from ther detachment.

Also wouldnt only units under the purge specifically get the chemical flamers not the CAD?

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
I dont believe you can have both Ordnance Tyrant and Master of The Horde in an army.

And where exactly does it say that the resurrecting infantry platoons gain obj sec in the Unending Host Detachment?

@RenegadeKorps, Are you sure that the 15 men Infantry platoon squads belonging to the CAD get the resurrecting power if they are not under the Unending Host Detachment? The Unending Host detachment clearly states that the models belonging under Unending Host gains the 3++ cover if being obscured by other models from the Unending Host not other models from ther detachment.

Also wouldnt only units under the purge specifically get the chemical flamers not the CAD?

^^ listen to this man

Your lists are not legal, and you're mixing detachment benefits. The uneding host needs to include a minimum number of infantry platoons to be legal, and only those gain the benefits of the 2+ resurrection with Outflank. The ones in the cad don't. And only units inside of the purge detachment can take chemical flamers or rockets.

Furthermore, only troops in your CAD would have ObSec, the Purge and Unending Host do not have that benefit.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify myself!
Please be careful when a rule says 'detachment' and when it says 'army'. There's a difference. I play rules as written.

I dont believe you can have both Ordnance Tyrant and Master of The Horde in an army.

Oh I know, I'm just comparing the list with KDK with what I could get in an Unending host with the same artillery core I would use in the list with the Purge&Ordnance tyrant. Maybe I wasn't clear.

And where exactly does it say that the resurrecting infantry platoons gain obj sec in the Unending Host Detachment?

They have it from the CAD.

Are you sure that the 15 men Infantry platoon squads belonging to the CAD get the resurrecting power if they are not under the Unending Host Detachment?

Yes. The benefit of the Unending host is a bonus that concern the Master of the Horde rule of my Arch-demagogue (p. 271: "when rolling to see whether", etc. "as per the Master of the Horde Devotion's special rules", etc.). And the Master of the Horde rule says (p. 238) : "whenever a Infantry squad bought as part of the same ARMY" (this is the crux). You want to say : benefits from a detachment concerns only the units of said detachment. I would say that it's the case even according to my reading in this case, since the benefit concerns the rule of my Arch-demagogue, which is from that detachment. Then this rule concerns all Infantry squad in the army. But the bonus applies whenever I roll to see if a unit comes back, regardless of its origin. (Otherwise--this is not my argument, just an observation--some units would come back on a 5+ and others on a 2+, which is odd.)

As a side note : I would also say that this "principle" ("benefits from a detachment concerns only the units of said detachment") is to be applied by default when it's not stated which units are concerned -- but only then, since codices overrule the BRB. Take the Purge Detachment, for example. Some people say that we cannot take chemical flamers in units that are not from the Purge detachment (because of this "principle"). But the rule of the Purge detachment is pretty clear (p. 270) : "Any friendly unit in the ARMY". Some detachments have benefits that 'reach' units not taken in said detachment. It's just a fact. So same answer concerning as to which units gain Outflank : "ALL units of Renegade Infantry that re-enter play", etc.

The uneding host needs to include a minimum number of infantry platoons

This is just wrong. Go read the rule (Master of the Horde, p.238) in the book : "An ARMY whose Demagogue has this Devotion must contain at least two Renegade Infantry Platoons". They don't have to be part of the same detachment as my Demagogue or of the Unending host.

The Unending Host detachment clearly states that the models belonging under Unending Host gains the 3++ cover if being obscured by other models from the Unending Host not other models from ther detachment.

It's another issue, but you're wrong. It says (p. 271) : "When a Renegade unit from this Detachment gains a cover save du to the enemy firing through a FRIENDLY Infantry squad (it doesn't say ''from this detachment'), that cover will be 3+ rather than a 5+". It means that when I take 4 units of zombies in my Unending host, they will have a 3+ save if the enemy fires through the Infantry squads of my CAD.

I pulled out my Siege of Vraks book, and you are correct on all accounts of the wording. And this whole time I thought it was detachment only.

In any event, I am still not sure the Command Benefits will carry over from one detachment to another. Since you're playing "Rules as Written" -- If you go to the main rulebook (page 120) under "Command Benefits" it says

This lists any additional bonuses or special rules that apply to some, or all, of the units in this Detachment".

So even though Forgeworld chose poor wording by using "Army", the main rulebook says those Command Benefits only apply to the detachment. I would agree that the Master of the Horde could be in any detachment, and those Infantry Platoons could be in the CAD for your minimum, but I don't think the Unending Hosts benefits would affect the other detachments.

but I don't think the Unending Hosts benefits would affect the other detachments.

As for the 2+ instead of the 5+, it clearly benefits (=concerns/applies to) my Warlord rule. All units in my army benefit indirectly of it because that rule (Master of the Horde) concerns all my army. So my Arch-demagogue has to be part of this detachment, but not the other units subject to the Master of Horde rule.

I would not say this is a case of poor writing. It seems natural to me that all my Infantry squads come back ont the same roll, regardless of their detachment of origin. And they said it somewhere, but codices have precedence.

As for the chemical flamers, what would write FW if they want chemical flamers to be available everywhere in the army, representing the abondance and sharing of toxic weapons? Well, they would write what they wrote. There's no other wording possible ("any friendly units in the army") to mean that, and this wording cannot mean anything else.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
As for the chemical flamers, what would write FW if they want chemical flamers to be available everywhere in the army, representing the abondance and sharing of toxic weapons? Well, the would write what they wrote. There's no other wording possible ("any friendly units in the army") to mean that.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree then, since it goes directly against how Command Benefits are described in the rulebook.

In any event, I guess I should offer some actual advice to your lists instead of debating rules here in the tactics section. I think your Purge list with all the artillery looks very appealing, but it may suffer when someone closes the gap. It also has little ability to deal with FMC spam, and that could be an issue. Against a lot of lists it should do ok though.

But for that reason, I think the first list is better. It may also be a bit more fun since you have more guys running around, and your objective grabbing will be a bit stronger. I'm not sold on the Chemical Flamers + Pipeline combo though, I've seen it done with normal flamers and was fairly ineffective, but it's cheap and you may see some benefit. You have one unit of flamers listed as 80 points, is that supposed to be a melta unit like the others? Or is the points listed wrong? I think if it's 3 units of meltas it will be better.

You have one unit of flamers listed as 80 points, is that supposed to be a melta unit like the others? Or is the points listed wrong? I think if it's 3 units of meltas it will be better.

Yes there's a little mistake, thank you.
I think I prefer the first list one too.

I'm not sure about the promethium combo neither. But yeah, it's cheap. The pipelines are huge so it can gives cover to all my army. It can hurt me but there's just a 1/36 chance. Besides, if my Infantry squads get hurt, it's okay, let them die.

It would be with something like this:
20 men with lasguns, 4 chemical flamers 80
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
15 men with lasguns, 3 chemical flamers 60
25 men with lasguns, 4 meltas, training and Sigil 130
20 men with lasguns, 3 meltas, training and Sigil 105
20 men with lasguns, 3 meltas, training and Sigil 105

But what is in your opinion the best wargear and weapon choices for them in general? Should I stick with to minimum? Or meltas? Would it be better to take them from IA13 for the different Sigil of Chaos?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for dealing with FMC, what do you suggest? If rapier laser destroyers can snap fire, I think I'm fine. But otherwise I don't really know what to do. A Hydra delivers 4 s7 ap4 shots, but it's not very good against flyrants (for example). And 70 pts is a lot for such a unit (in Renegade standards).

I wouldn't worry about the Sigils, I mean the chances if getting good LD is decent with the vox, and it's to your benefit if you run off the board or get swept in combat in a lot of cases.

Not sure about FMC, I don't think you can do much. You have a gak load of lasgun which are likely to hurt a Flyrant and force a grounding test just through sheer weight of fire. Snap firing the rapier could work, I think I saw that in the FAQ that non-blast ordnance could snap fire?

Mmm you might be right for the sigils. But otherwise, meltas? flamer? nothing?

Oh I have an idea for FMC (I'm not saying I'll do it though).
The best we can do is a 20-men Infantry squad with 2 lascannons, 4 plasma guns (160pts) + a Demagogue from IA13 with covenant of Tzeentch so the unit snaps fire at BS2, all this near a Ammunition Dumb for re-rolling missed 1. But even then, it's not much. It would do 1-2 wound(s) to a jinking Flyrant at 24''.

I think I saw that in the FAQ that non-blast ordnance could snap fire?

Since the submitted question to GW was about vehicles, FAQ says that vehicles can snap fire non-blast/template. It's unclear whether we can apply this to other unit types.

I would use kdk for the heralds, put them in your strongest damage dealer and rack up the blood tithe. free BTs are amazing. if you have spare points invest in some hounds and spread them out to protect your artillery or have them as fast scoring. Then i would go for a heldrake that way you get some kind of anti air.

I would use kdk for the heralds, put them in your strongest damage dealer and rack up the blood tithe. free BTs are amazing.

But their leadership is only 8. They might not pass the required Ld test, no?
You're saying I should take the minimum KDK troops requirement? The artillery units being enough to generate the blood tithe?

Yes thats what im saying. The herald is fearless so no need for leadership tests. ANd some flesh hounds are good for your type of list.

The herald is fearless so no need for leadership tests.

Fearless models must still make leadership tests as normal. They just pass automatically Pinning, Morale and Regroup tests.
That's why it's not even guaranteed that with 8 blood points the Bloodthirster comes into play. These points will be wasted if the Herald fails his test.

UncleanOne wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
As for the chemical flamers, what would write FW if they want chemical flamers to be available everywhere in the army, representing the abondance and sharing of toxic weapons? Well, the would write what they wrote. There's no other wording possible ("any friendly units in the army") to mean that.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree then, since it goes directly against how Command Benefits are described in the rulebook.

In any event, I guess I should offer some actual advice to your lists instead of debating rules here in the tactics section. I think your Purge list with all the artillery looks very appealing, but it may suffer when someone closes the gap. It also has little ability to deal with FMC spam, and that could be an issue. Against a lot of lists it should do ok though.

@UncleanOne, Hi, I took the liberty to make a ymdc thread for this because I want to get to the bottom of this. If RenegadeKorps is correct then he just found a way to break RH and make it into a very powerful army by combining Unending Host and The Purge detachment benefits to a obj sec. CAD.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/697461.page#8794897

Then dont summon Blood thirsters, you can summon bloodletters, more fleshounds or blood crushers

Mmm. I'm not sure it's worth the investment then. What do the others think? Are KDK allies worth it?

I must admit Renegades&Heretics have the most powerful shooting units available to KDK characters to join them in other to generate blood tithe from afar, but still. Maybe I should aim at 1 herald, 1 chaos lord, plus two 58-point squads of cultists and see the Bloodthirster as a bonus. But it's still an investment which amounts to the price of said Bloodthirster, so...

It works great when you are allying R&H to a KDK army, but not the other way around. You'd be better of you taking some psykers and just summoning normally

Rapier laser destroyers cannot snap fire with ordnance weapons, it's confirmed! The Ordnance rule clearly talks about non-vehicle models. (There was an 'ambiguity' concerning vehicle models. Hence the recent FAQ.)

(I sent a FB message to GW and they answered me).

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
Rapier laser destroyers cannot snap fire with ordnance weapons, it's confirmed! The Ordnance rule clearly talks about non-vehicle models. (So there was an 'ambiguity' concerning vehicle models. Hence the recent FAQ.)

(I sent a FB message to GW and the answered me).

Good to know, thanks. I thought the FAQ answer was odd, but now it makes some sense at least.