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... shove them into your army list!

Primary Detachment - The Wolves Unleashed
HQ - Wolf Lord, Combi-Melta - 115
HQ - Rune Priest, Combi-Melta - 70
Troops - Grey Hunters, Rhino, Meltagun - 115
Troops - Grey Hunters, Rhino, Meltagun - 115

SoB - Allied Detachment
HQ - Canoness, Book of St Lucius - 70
Troops - Sisters, 2 Meltaguns, MM Immolator - 145

Inquisition Allied Detachment
HQ - Coteaz - 100
HQ - OM Inquisitor, Psyker(1), Force sword - 55
Elite - Inquisition Warband - 3 Psykers, 2 Acolytes w/ Plasma Guns, Rhino - 93

Craftworld Eldar CAD
HQ - Farseer Skyrunner - 115
HQ - Autarch Skyrunner - 85
Troops - Wind Riders, 3 Scatter Lasers - 81
Troops - Wind Riders, 3 Scatter Lasers - 81
Elite - Warp Spiders
Heavy Support - Vaul's Wrath Battery, D-Barrage - 55pts
Heavy Support - Vaul's Wrath Battery, D-Barrage - 55pts
Heavy Support - Vaul's Wrath Battery, D-Barrage - 55pts

List total: 1500pts

Not sure I'm happy with this to be honest, but it's a first draft and I have the models to proxy this reliably so I'm going to try it out and see how it goes. Any thoughts?

What's the strategy? What joins what?

 snykyninja wrote:
What's the strategy? What joins what?

Looks like the only strategy here is to be labeled as TFG.

To be honest I'm failing to see the deathstar part of this list that I expect as there are a lot of characters with little killing power and a lack of survivability along with a lack of mobility outside of rhinos. If your doing happy friends you need a few things first:

Large unit of ablative wounds (wolfs from the wolfkin formation are great for this.)

A model with hit and run (in most common cases Sammael) this also gives the extra bonus of taking Azrael as a LOW he gives his whole unit a 4+ invuln he also picks a warlord trait from dark angels codex (usually FNP when within 3 of an objective)

Some pysker support (this can be white scars biker libbies or a tigurius conclave for an almost guaranteed invis)

You then also need some beatstick HQs with high strength for dealing with knights and other large models. Wolf guard battle leaders or iron priests do well wolf guard can take storm shields whilst the iron priest can take cyberwolfs and his hammer can potentially 1 hit KO opponents

and then fill the rest of the points with the required tax like scouts etc and some more bonus characters to make your superfriends more powerful

 snykyninja wrote:
What's the strategy? What joins what?

In general the HQs are split down one to a squad, except Coteaz and the Inquisitor who both go in their Rhino. The list has options for reserves shenanigans so deployment can change, but I'm imagining the Sisters, Inquisitors, Batteries, and possibly the Bikes and Spiders deploy, then the Wolves arrive as needed. Strategy is a bit tricky to discern and the reason I'm not really sold on the list yet, but I'm thinking the army operates as two halves; Imperials mob vehicles and MCs, Eldar take objectives and blow up infantry. Batteries sit where they're deployed and plink away.

Sqauwky wrote:
To be honest I'm failing to see the deathstar

You're thinking of "Superfriends", bro. This is Happy Friends! Some of the Friends are happy because they get a small Eldar contingent which makes up for their failings. The others are happy because they get to drag my Sisters to glory.

Happy Friends Mk.II, "The Happy Funtime Friends Playgroup":

Sisters of Battle CAD - 355
HQ - Canoness - 65
Troops - Sisters Squad, MM Immolator, 2 Meltaguns - 140
Troops - Sisters Squad, MM Immolator, 2 Meltaguns, Vet Superior - 150

Eldar CAD - 557
HQ - Fly-seer - 115
Troops - 3 Bikes, 2 Scats - 71
Troops - 3 Bikes, 2 Scats - 71
Elites - Warp Spiders - 95
Elites - Warp Spiders - 95
Heavy Support - Waul's Wrath, D-Cannon - 55
Heavy Support - Waul's Wrath, D-Cannon - 55

Bluhd Rehvens Spess Mehrens CAD - 485
HQ - Librarian - 65
Troops - Tac Squad, Rhino, Grav Cannon & Amp - 140
Troops - Tac Squad, Rhino, Grav Cannon & Amp - 140
Troops - Tac Squad, Drop Pod, Grav Cannon & Amp - 140

Inquisition - 100
Coteaz - 100

Total: 1497

Not a list I'd take to the LGS for pick-up games, although I can see it sucking hard unless I learn how to play it well. Still, I like me some obnoxious cheese-spam and this has a little bit of everything, from Uberfast ObSec to grav-spam. All it lacks is a Monster or Superheavy, but you could probably squeeze an Imperial Knight in there somewhere easily enough.

Are these suppose to be "good" or just fun because they look pretty weak outside of the eldar portion.

 Tyrius wrote:
Are these suppose to be "good" or just fun because they look pretty weak outside of the eldar portion.

They're supposed to be "good", as in "can beat other min-maxed lists at Tactical Objectives". In what way do they look "weak"?

There's no over all strategy that actually makes this work 8f you go up against a true full eldar list all of your rhinos and immolators will probably die turn 1 leaving you with foot slogging Marines. If your Marines are foot slogging you just gave up on that cannon being of much use. Now you've just gone from 8 fast units to 4. And the things in your list that could deal with say an imperial Knight or a wraithknight are now walking to try and catch that thing. It's faster than you, and probably has enough ap 3 or better to wipe you out. This list is just disjointed and a lot of your psychic support can't be shared (not battle brothers)

danny1995 wrote:
8f you go up against a true full eldar list

What would you consider a true, full Eldar list? Most of the ones I see are en extension of my CAD, which means a lot of S6 shots in my deployment zone. That'll kill a couple of transports, I guess, but it's not going to pop them all. Same thing with Knights - they have lots of guns and are tough to take down, but their best anti-armour weaponry has a 36" range, meaning they have to walk into midfield to use it against me. That's Grav/ D-Cannon country.

Even supposing the transports do all die before I move and everyone has to disembark it'll mean half of my army is slogging, but unless they save enough shots to kill my infantry, and assuming I deploy properly, I've still got 20 3+ bodies with bolters and psychic powers holding a section of the board, with another 5 and a Grav Cannon arriving in a Pod. I also have an Eldar CAD whizzing around doing whatever. Footslogging only sucks if your whole army is doing it.

There's also the option to leave stuff in reserve if I'm expecting a big alpha strike. I generally dislike doing this, but with jetbikes and transports it's slightly less unappealing.

all of your rhinos and immolators will probably die turn 1 leaving you with foot slogging Marines. If your Marines are foot slogging you just gave up on that cannon being of much use.

Footslogging versus stationary, the Cannons lose 6" and two shots each. You could drop all the Rhinos and the cannons would still be able to support midfield - which is where Knights and Gargants need to go if they want to hassle me/ score objectives.

This list is just disjointed

I'm not seeing it. I think the two halves compliment each other nicely. It has weaknesses, and there are definitely better alternatives to some of the units, but you can't build a list to hard-counter everything, so you build one with a big toolbox and learn to play it well.

a lot of your psychic support can't be shared (not battle brothers)

I'm not worried about psychic support not being shared - it's the Warp Charge I'm after, not necessarily Fortune and Guide. 6+d6 dice seems like a lot at 1500pts.

Both my daemons and eldar would shred through this list, I get you think it is solid man but it's just trying to do too much. I would Lable this list as casual mess around, wouldn't make it past turn 3 vs any decent tourney list that's played right. Yes you technically have "answers" to everything. But no way to protect them as mentioned earlier is just to much, forcing marines to foot slog neuters you so hard.

And as for the eldar portion, it seems like your trying to bring what you think makes eldar broken. Sliders bikes and D weapons. But your not bringing enough of any to make a difference other than the d cannons(not a bad unit but not the best either for its point cost).

As an example my 1500 list runs 15 Scatterbikes and my buddies sm codex always kills about 9-12 of them along with most my other big targets using mass free points Gladius for massive obsec running around. So your two sqauds won't do crap. Not even survive until later turns for objectives.

My advice is your list looks like your trying to combine eldar, death star, and Gladius lists and again dude, it's just too much. Pick what you want and focus. Any 3 of those lists become hyper competitive when tuned, just not when mashed together like this. Especially the psyker phase, 6 dice just isn't a lot really, you need to be able to have a psyker presence to deny enemy spells not just for your own buffs. Further examples are my buddies sm has 10, my eldar have 8(only reason this few works is cause farseers are the best psykers in the game) my daemons have 19. I wouldn't let you have anything your diving for providing the dice roll on average.

I do apologize I'd you were looking for positive feedback, I just don't see this winning in any but the most casual environments.

Ecdain wrote:
Both my daemons and eldar would shred through this list

... that doesn't help me. What are the weaknesses you'd exploit to ensure you shred through it without being shredded in return? Do you not think this list is capable of inflicting any damage on your army? If so, what is it that makes you think that? Walk me through what you'd do if I deployed this across the table from you.

But no way to protect them

Four start the game in Rhinos. One starts the game in reserve. Two can Jink, two have 6++ saves. There's, like, 8 squads, plus vehicles, plus Batteries, all of which have 3+ saves, all of which can hurt infantry, vehicles and Monsters individually they're nothing to worry about, but I'm not going to be walking them around on their own and hoping to kick some ass. They'll all be supporting one another.

Is that not enough protection? What should I be doing different, do you think?

it seems like your trying to bring what you think makes eldar broken

I don't think the Eldar are "broken"; they're just built for the Edition, same way Space Wolves and Grey Knights were when I last played in 5th. They're powerful now largely because they're highly mobile without relying on vehicles, and can field a lot of S6 BS4 shooting. The IoM don't get that - but judging by the fact people think Space Marines are also "broken" they don't need it, which they probably don't, unless you're running this kind of list, in which case the Eldar give you the mobile shooting you lack. I'm not "relying" on them as such, but it's nice to have them.

not a bad unit but not the best either for its point cost

I dunno - 55pts for a strength D barrage with 4 T7 wounds? Seems like a bargain to me. Doesn't do anything else, but for that price I wouldn't ask it to.

my buddies sm has 10, my eldar have 8(only reason this few works is cause farseers are the best psykers in the game) my daemons have 19

...at 1500pts? Most of the lists I've seen at that points level have had 4 tops.

I want the dice primarily so I can mess with your psychic phase, not for casting necessarily. At worst, I can force you to use more dice than you might like to, because I'm going to throw all 6+d6 against anything I really don't want you to get. At best it'll actively deny you powers. I'm still not sure how important psykers are in this edition, but I figure being able to mess with my opponent's is a good idea.

I do apologize I'd you were looking for positive feedback

I'm not looking for people to tell me the list is great, particularly if it's not, because that doesn't help me. I want people to pick it apart so I can fix it before I start buying models, so I know if I can use the stuff I have or if I need to make an investment.

Everyone is telling you it's weaknesses and your ignoring them and saying were wrong. We tries. Good luck

danny1995 wrote:
Everyone is telling you it's weaknesses and your ignoring them and saying were wrong. We tries. Good luck

"Everyone"? You, specifically, listed some generic complaints, most of which aren't really valid, and suggested no fixes. Now you're flouncing because I didn't stroke your bum in gratitude. Nothing of value is lost.

I can't Tel you how to fix it because it lacks a concept. I can give you advice when you have a good starting point. Do you want specifics. Rhino Grav isn't going to do well, that pod will do good though, try running 3 pods of Grav. If those are full squads of Tacs consider dropping some (down to 5 on one or two squads) and adding combination grav to sergeants. Coteaz Doesn't do a lot for you, I'd rather have another Farseer on Bike. Drop the Sister superior and get you bikes up to 3 scats. This should help your list. I worry about horde clearing also. You can SHRED armour with melta and Grav, Elites with Grav and Warp Spiders, but versus large numbers o don't know if you have enough shots to deal with them. It may be worth considering turning your melta into flamers to eat through hordes in cover. Also having used D-Cannons, don't expect them to do much in terms of damage, their main role is actually much stronger at just shutting down one area of the board that no one wants to go into (24" range isn't so great if you can't move and shoot) but they are good still.

danny1995 wrote:
I can't Tel you how to fix it because it lacks a concept. I can give you advice when you have a good starting point. Do you want specifics. Rhino Grav isn't going to do well, that pod will do good though, try running 3 pods of Grav. If those are full squads of Tacs consider dropping some (down to 5 on one or two squads) and adding combination grav to sergeants. Coteaz Doesn't do a lot for you, I'd rather have another Farseer on Bike. Drop the Sister superior and get you bikes up to 3 scats. This should help your list. I worry about horde clearing also. You can SHRED armour with melta and Grav, Elites with Grav and Warp Spiders, but versus large numbers o don't know if you have enough shots to deal with them. It may be worth considering turning your melta into flamers to eat through hordes in cover. Also having used D-Cannons, don't expect them to do much in terms of damage, their main role is actually much stronger at just shutting down one area of the board that no one wants to go into (24" range isn't so great if you can't move and shoot) but they are good still.

This, it's hard to give advice when I'm not sure what your trying to focus on.

As for how my eldar would pick it apart, 60 s6 shots from the 15 bikes, 2 hornets pump out 4 s8 ap2 48" shots apiece would wreck your rhinos turn 1 forcing you to foot slog dudes in them, and 6++ is. 16% chance of survival.... The rest of the army gets picked apart by the already mentioned shots plus warp spiders and the wraithknight(i didn't mentioned psykers cause that's a lot of math to explain)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for my daemons, at 1500 pts I run a Tzeentch army that does runs the standard Screamerstar with exalted flamers with them Kairos, LoC, 3 Pink horrors squads with 11 dudes per. Two lvl 3 heralds added on equals 19 WC and some flying psykers you will have a hell of a time stopping due to the mass 2++ re Rollable invuls(grimoire) plus psyker buffs and guaranteed summonings every turn(paradox). All are invul.saves so your grav is useless, you don't have anything scary enough to tie up my Screamers for more than a turn if I choose not to slash attacks. Most of this army's damage comes from the psyker phase and requires a LOT of explanation on what powers I'd use against what at what times. It's a very reactive army that's near impossible to kill.

danny1995 wrote:
I can't Tel you how to fix it because it lacks a concept

A "concept"? You mean a gimmick? I haven't encountered this term in this context before.

that pod will do good though, try running 3 pods of Grav

... so footslogging Marines are bad if they're disembarking from wrecked Rhinos, but they're good if they're disembarking from a Drop Pod? I get it, kind of, but I don't like the idea of half my army sitting in reserve doing nothing for 2-3 turns while I need it on the table. Drop Pods are fine for dropping stuff on the opponent in the first turn - mine plops a Grav cannon and a piece of terrain down on turn one - but beyond that they seem a bit wasteful.

consider dropping some (down to 5 on one or two squads) and adding combination grav to sergeants

10pts is an extra Scatter Laser on the Bikes. I'm not seeing why the combi-grav is better. Either way I'd rather have Ld9 on that BSS than either the Scat or the combi..

Coteaz Doesn't do a lot for you, I'd rather have another Farseer on Bike.

I agree. He's going to be standing around waiting to board a transport at the start of the game too. I could swap him and a unit of Spiders for another Fly-seer and a Scatbike squad, I suppose, but there's probably something better I could get for Coteaz's points without having to give up a squad.

but versus large numbers o don't know if you have enough shots to deal with them.

Depends what you mean by "deal with". I generally "deal" with hordes by tarpitting them with my transports for as long as possible and feeding them a squad when that fails. Killing them is frustrating and a waste of time. Just corral them off somewhere and get on with the rest of the game.

Ecdain wrote:
This, it's hard to give advice when I'm not sure what your trying to focus on.

Winning games by scoring more Victory Points than my opponent. That's what we're all here for, innit?

As for how my eldar would pick it apart, 60 s6 shots from the 15 bikes, 2 hornets pump out 4 s8 ap2 48" shots apiece would wreck your rhinos turn 1.... (and so on)

So high volumes of long-range shooting. I know this is a weakness for this particular kind of army list. It always has been, even back in 5th Edition when vehicles were functionally immortal - but weaknesses like that are things you need to overcome in deployment and gameplay. You can't wring them out in the list-building stage unless you're tailoring, which is a bad idea for a number of reasons. Instead, what you do is build an army list that has the tools to deal with any opponent, no matter what they bring, then learn to play it effectively against all comers. To do that, you need to make sure your units and Formations are giving you the best bang for your buck.

That's what I'm asking for here, I suppose - advice on whether these units are the most points-efficient choices in their respective slots, or if there's something else I could bring which would perform better. I already have a good idea of how the army will play, and how I'm going to play it. I just need to know if I've got the units right.

Tzeentch

Explains the 19 dice. The army might be hard to kill, but how mobile is it?

Um, transports can't tarpit, they don't remain engaged. Like I said it's only coteaz and a few upgrades you'd have to pass on in order to get a bike Seer. They're just better than coteaz for what your doing. We're not looking for a gimmicks when we say concept. For instance my harlequin list, the concept is that my primary goal is to take down heavy vehicles quickly with Haywire in the first turn or two, then use my shooting to neuter their speed. From there I use my speed to avoid things I can't beat in a fight and pick off the targets that matter. That's the concept, the over all strategy you hope to achieve with your army. The advantage to the drop pods over rhinos is getting right in your opponents face, and you can put down 3 ObSec AV12 vehicles anywhere on the board. Breaking through a gun line army when you have to foot slog from 24" away isn't going to work, having to foot slog from 6" away, well that's not going to be an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also that SS only boosts your chances of passing a leadership test by about 10% , just compare that to a cannon before you make your decision

Screamers are jetbikes, so up to 36" with turbo boost. Exalted flamers travel with as jump infantry that can Splinter off if needed, constantly summoning mobile units such as more screamers, hounds, fiends, etc. Are always options if needed. Two FMC going around at 12-24" a turn. Only dudes who remain still are the horrors. Rest is completely mobile.

And clearly you won't listen to anyone, you asked how we would beat it so we told you, you said whatever don't care.

Now you're saying it doesn't matter what advice we give your basically not going to change anything. And just picking at very specific statements to try and argue for no reason. Please don't degenerate your own thread and let us help you. If your too stubborn to change anything why bother posting?

danny1995 wrote:
Um, transports can't tarpit, they don't remain engaged.

Slang mismatch, I think. What you call "tarpitting" (i.e. holding elite CC units in combat for multiple turns using cheap ineffective units) we call "clogging"; tarpitting refers to preventing stuff moving freely, which cheap transports are good at, especially against footslogging hordes, which either go around or go through - either way they lose a turn of movement, maybe more if they don't have Powerklaws or similar. Obviously this only works if the transports don't get powerwashed off the board early, so make sure that doesn't happen.

The advantage to the drop pods over rhinos is getting right in your opponents face

Yeah I get that - but what happens if your opponent drops 300 Orks or an Infernal Tetrad down across the table from you? I don't want to get right in their faces; I want to keep the hell away from them forever. Drop Pods allow you to deploy aggressively against armies that your shooting can hurt, but they also force you to deploy defensively, and possibly badly, if your opponent doesn't care about Gravbolters and will eat you if you go near him. Rhinos give you a choice. Sure, they can be easily shot out from under you early on, but you can mitigate the chances of that happening. They also don't require you to keep stuff in reserve; you **can** do that with Rhinos, and against certain lists it might even be a good idea, but you're not obliged to. You also lose the ability to throw boxes at people to block their movement/ shooting/ charges.

To my mind the Rhinos are just more flexible and give you more options. They're fragile, sure, but so are Pod Squads..

you can put down 3 ObSec AV12 vehicles anywhere on the board

I didn't know they were ObSec. Then again, if I want AV12 ObSec vehicles, why would the Drop Pod be better than 5 Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent? The latter is 40-odd points more, but it's not entirely points-inefficient considering the extra mobility you get and the fact you're not obliged to deploy the unit aggressively if that's not a good idea. Sure you can't just sit it on the point and dare people to get rid of it, but you can move it, shoot with it, then zoom it back.

I can see the advantages a Drop Pod has, but that lack of flexibility is a bit grim to my mind.

Also that SS only boosts your chances of passing a leadership test by about 10% , just compare that to a cannon before you make your decision

... and the chances are already pretty high. The Cannon is an extra 4 shots every turn until the Bike dies, which is way better, on reflection. I'll probably regret it the first time I get Pinned in the wreckage of the Immolator, but I'll kill a few more Spess Mehrens in the meantime so I suppose it all evens out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ecdain wrote:
Screamers are jetbikes, so up to 36" with turbo boost. Exalted flamers travel with as jump infantry that can Splinter off if needed, constantly summoning mobile units such as more screamers, hounds, fiends, etc. Are always options if needed. Two FMC going around at 12-24" a turn. Only dudes who remain still are the horrors. Rest is completely mobile.

Right - so it's hard to kill, mobile, and has more dice in the psychic phase than an Unbound army of Farseers. Sounds like quite the doozy. Wonder why it's not winning tournaments and stuff? Must be a reason. Maybe all the Tzeentch players get matched up against Grey Knights in the first round or something.

Why do so many Daemons players bring a Murderhorde if Tzeentch is so scary? A question for the ages.

Now you're saying it doesn't matter what advice we give your basically not going to change anything.

I have **literally** never said that. Read for comprehension, not just to reply.

And just picking at very specific statements to try and argue for no reason.

I'm arguing because my comprehension of the game differs from yours, and some of the things you say don't really make sense accordingly. Obviously the stuff I'm saying doesn't make sense according to your comprehension of the game, hence you're arguing back. Neither one of us is a 40k savant so I'm not sure why you think I have no right to argue against the advice you're giving me, but if you're going to be a snowflake feel free to clear off.

Dude I'm sorry if you are not getting it. Even your rebuttles are confusing cause all your doing is picking little snippets out of much bigger posts and only arguing a single out of context sentence.

The point is your army has too many things going on, this is not an opinion this is a fact(I've showed this list to 5 other people in my gaming group, all fairly competitive, and they all say the same thing). "more victory points" is not a Concept, that's the goal you use your concept(idea behind your army) to accomplish. What I'm asking is HOW do you force your opponent's to do anything? With a list like this I'd seriously just flutter outside your range and kill anything that got close and zoom up for obective Control.
Most armies in this meta operate under the hammer and anvil strategy where they have a pushing force or alpha strike(most of the time this is grav drops or deathstars marching forward) with a backline for either a second wave of hits or much longer backfield fire support(jetbikes, imperial knights, any assortment of tanks) so that they can Control 2/3 of the board and thus have objective superiority.

I ask what your concept is cause you have taken half the hammer and half the anvil from a couple different lists but not cohesively brought then together in something that runs like a single army concept. More just a bunch of guys you thought looked good individually and smashed them all together.

And as for your comment on murderhorde over Tzeentch, it's because it takes a more technical player to run Tzeentch properly, also to run a proper Tzeentch army you use cads, and most people want the corruption bonus of the incursion, which is a seperate concept as the cores are very taxing you are limited in the tools you can bring as a Tzeentch player. Where as the murderhorde or tallyband are relatively cheap for what they bring to the table and let people run flying circus shenanigans(most of the time tetrad). It take a lot of knowledge to know what psyker powers to dive for against who and when to use what spells that most people don't bother learning as they are lazy and prefer to shoot things or swing swords.


As a side note, I have a joke list that would crush this pretty hard that is a murderhorde with karanak backed up by 100 slaaneshi furies, wouldn't work against a lot of competitive lists. But would against yours for sure.

Again im not saying to stop playing what you want, because this is a gamr and you should play the way you want. I just don't want you to be dissilusioned and go around thinking this is a hardcore list. This is something to being to casual games just to have fun and roll dice. See what happens ya know?

this is a fun list and it'll work fine. don't listen to these haters.

 axisofentropy wrote:
this is a fun list and it'll work fine. don't listen to these haters.

That's what I said, this list is something to bring and have fun. Just not super competitive is my whole point.

Ecdain wrote:
Dude I'm sorry if you are not getting it. Even your rebuttles are confusing cause all your doing is picking little snippets out of much bigger posts and only arguing a single out of context sentence.

Yeah, but the points I'm picking out are the stuff I disagree with, and even in context most of the stuff I'm contending is either trivial or useless. I'm trying to build a list that will allow me to beat any army my opponent deploys provided I play well enough. In this context, the stuff about Coteaz, the VSS and Drop Pods vs Wave Serpents is useful discussion.

Telling me Rhinos die to shooting is not. I can figure that out by reading the Codex and the rules for shooting at vehicles. Likewise providing specific examples of armies you happen to own which would "shred" this list is unhelpful - unless you're going to tell me how you'd do it so I can figure out a counter, which **is** helpful, but much easier to learn by doing, and also not really relevant.

The closest thing I have to a "concept" is that I want my army to have a Sisters of Battle detachment. That's the army I'm working with at the moment, hence I'd rather add to that than just drop 400 quid on a whole new army. Given the tools Sisters have I think it's possible to do the above, but it's going to require tools from other Codexes because the Sisters just don't have the minerals to pull it off on their own for a number of reasons. It also means I can report it as a "Sisters" army, which could potentially ruin any analyses if I'm reporting the data for a reason, which would be amusing, though not massively important.

What I'm asking is HOW do you force your opponent's to do anything?

Deployment and movement, mostly, although it can be difficult to gauge which of my units the opponent is going to hit. I have no single unit in this army that presents a better target than any other unit, so it comes down to what each specific unit is doing at the time. Which is sort of the point, really.

How do you do it?

Most armies in this meta operate under the hammer and anvil strategy

Here's our problem. You're thinking and talking in terms of "metas".

I've never been convinced that the base game really has a "meta". Most tournament formats do, but that meta is a function of modifications TOs make to the base game so it's easier to assess performances and weed out bad sportsmanship. I'm not playing in tournaments, and if I was I would build a list to counter whatever meta prevailed within the structure of that competition - this list would be illegal in ITCs for example, because it has two CADs.

Even if I did that, I still wouldn't base it around a "strategy" because then my opponents would know exactly what I'm going to do with every unit as soon as he sees my list. Maybe 5th Edition Wolves spoiled me, but I much prefer armies that contain all the tools to adapt on the fly to opponents. If you have a gameplan I can tell exactly what each of your units is going to want to do before you even deploy it, and therefore how to mitigate its effect on the game using my resources. That's... not good. Facing an army where every unit has mobility and firepower but no unit has any especial value over and above any other, it becomes more difficult to out-deploy them and you're reduced to having to out-play them.

That's why the Eldar are doing so well right now. The top two Eldar lists from the LVO are good examples of this; there's no "plan" or "strategy" to speak of, just the tools required to cope with anything the opponent deploys. 5th Edition Wolves was exactly the same thing, hence so many GT wins for min-maxed Hunters-in-a-Box lists. 5th Edition Dark Eldar were similar, though to a much lesser extent. Hell, even your OWN Eldar list seems to exemplify this "concept"; you can choose to call some of it a "hammer" and some of it an "anvil" if you like, but there's probably nothing in there that can't do both roles, am I right? Nothing static, nothing that can't be deployed up the table? It sounds a lot like your Tzeentch army is built along similar lines, but I'm not too good with Daemons so if you want to tell me it's an army with a gameplan rather than a take-all-comers list I'll believe you.

For what it's worth, looking at these lists now I'm starting to agree that they're not as streamlined as they could be, and there may be better ways to build this overall. I might go back to the drawing board and have another go, but the end result is going to look much like the above, I think.

nobody's reading all those words.

 axisofentropy wrote:
nobody's reading all those words.

ok