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There's a certain battle going on one of the FB sale pages concerning Dice Scalping. If anyone doesn't know what scalping is here is a description

"Scalping is where a group or individual buys a limited product and then instantly sells it again at an inflated price for profit. This usually applies to sport and music tickets, of which the practice is illegal in many countries such as the UK."

Now within our own group we're a bit split. Some say it's capitalism and only fair for someone to be able to sell what they like, but then the comparison with sport and music tickets arises, obviously being illegal in many countries, with many video game publishers starting to limit the amount of limited edition products individuals can buy for a while now. I also brought up price inflation is heavily regulated in property, so you can only pay over the house value if you don't require any lending. I do however obviously support legitimate buyers who simply sell their product to cover/cut costs, or the selling of limited edition items at a later date where the true value of such items has stabilized and the buyer can be relatively assured of a resale price.

What are your guys thoughts?

I think it's a colossally jerk move and is very anti-community. Limited edition products are hard enough to come by without some dude buying them all and then reselling for a huge profit margin. Whenever I see someone doing this, I instantly right them off as being bad for the community.

Having said that, there is no legal issue. Feel free to jack up prices... just don't be surprised when some people don't like you as much afterwards.

By scalping theyre taking away hobby budget that could have been spent on other things. They indirectly rob the producers and stockists via less sales of other stuff, and outright rob end consumers.

This is something which is so prevalent (and not just where capitalism is supported) that you'll never combat it successfully. Since it's just hobby/toys, I don't see any reason to get up in arms over it. There are far worse abuses going on with regards to monopolies and scalping.

I have a dislike for it, but not much you can do about it.

There are two sides to this. From the Scalpers view, they are there to make ££££. They carry all the risk of buying something they then can't sell on. So yes, they are going to inflate the price, it's simple Supply and Demand, and all business's do this. GW does it. Inflates the price of their 'limited edition' stuff, knowing the demand will buy it. They produce items (see Spacehulk) in limited quantities to ensure people will quickly snap them up and therefore reduce the cost to GW of not having to a) Store or Stock them, b) People buy diect from them.

Now there is an easy way to stop scalpers. Both the little guy on Ebay selling 9 of the 10 limited edition minatures they've bought, to the big company manufacturing a limited amount. Simply don't buy them. The choice is yours. If you buy, then you must support the practise. If you don't buy, then the practice can't happen.

Other companies take an active look at preventing the Ebay scalpers. Kingdom Death for example, limit their first run resins to 1 or 2 per person. They can do this, knowing they'll sell out anyway. At the moment the 1.5 KDM Kickstarter is running. I'm sure due to the success of the game, many backers are buying duplicate copies of the items at a discounted price in the hope to sell them on when they arrive. I've no issue with people doing this, as if you wanted one, you are free to buy it yourself now, and the person buying the duplicate copy to sell, is carrying all the risk of not being able to sell when it arrives.

If you don't like 'Scalpers' then simply don't buy from them. Then there's no market for them.

The real issue is that the print run is too limited. There is obviously a market to sell at least some of these dice at 28 GBP. Games Workshop should take this as an indication that they aren't making enough of the product. Supply is too small. With a high demand and a low supply, the market will naturally want to increase the price. Scalpers perform this function.

Based on how many of their limited release products sell out in less than five minutes, it's probably fair to say that they are horrible at demand forecasting.

Ebay has many items that are no longer available, and which, because of that, attract a premium price. By definition, Limited Edition suggests short supply, which in turn increases demand.

I have in the loft two LE Space Hulks. One is in use, the other still sealed. It might get sold or it might get opened. I have a number of other sealed sets that I haven't got round to yet.

On the other hand, when AoS came out, I ordered 5 copies of the White Dwarf with the rules and free figure for my wargaming group. Was I forward thinking and planning, or was I depriving "the community" of some "rights"? In any case, when I collected them on the day of release, two other gamers offered on the spot to pay double to buy them.

I've also been quietly building a Dogs of War Army for the last 5 years or so. If ebay prices are to be believed, the army has (currently) doubled in value. If I need the cash, I'll sell it - but for what I can get for it, not what I paid for it. Is that scalping?

I guess my conclusion is that buying something IN ORDER TO sell it again immediately at a profit isn't very friendly, but is neither wrong nor illegal.. To stay on point with the LE dice - the RRP is a scalp in the first place, so it's hard to point the finger at secondary scalping.

 Kriswall wrote:
The real issue is that the print run is too limited. There is obviously a market to sell at least some of these dice at 28 GBP. Games Workshop should take this as an indication that they aren't making enough of the product. Supply is too small. With a high demand and a low supply, the market will naturally want to increase the price. Scalpers perform this function.

Based on how many of their limited release products sell out in less than five minutes, it's probably fair to say that they are horrible at demand forecasting.

GW are aware of it and are looking to expand some of their runs.... the Dice however are made externally and there are supply issues...... well that's their excuse anyway.


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stroller wrote:
Ebay has many items that are no longer available, and which, because of that, attract a premium price. By definition, Limited Edition suggests short supply, which in turn increases demand.

I have in the loft two LE Space Hulks. One is in use, the other still sealed. It might get sold or it might get opened. I have a number of other sealed sets that I haven't got round to yet.

On the other hand, when AoS came out, I ordered 5 copies of the White Dwarf with the rules and free figure for my wargaming group. Was I forward thinking and planning, or was I depriving "the community" of some "rights"? In any case, when I collected them on the day of release, two other gamers offered on the spot to pay double to buy them.

I've also been quietly building a Dogs of War Army for the last 5 years or so. If ebay prices are to be believed, the army has (currently) doubled in value. If I need the cash, I'll sell it - but for what I can get for it, not what I paid for it. Is that scalping?

I guess my conclusion is that buying something IN ORDER TO sell it again immediately at a profit isn't very friendly, but is neither wrong nor illegal.. To stay on point with the LE dice - the RRP is a scalp in the first place, so it's hard to point the finger at secondary scalping.

I think it's slightly different when you're buying discontinued models that have been unavailable for years. Plus the price stabilizes, you have some limited or old items that simply can't be sold at higher prices because they are not popular so people will not buy them.

It's not a single answer for all products, but simply buying 30 odd dice and selling them at a massively inflated price as soon as they sell out is most definitely wrong. I personally think a cap of around 5 would be perfectly fine for limited edition products and limited edition individual models.

They're dice.

Seriously. They're dice.

If they're a collector item, then the market will determine their selling price. If GW is selling them for X, and the market is willing to pay X+Y, then that's what they're really worth. It's not a case of,

"Whaann! People are bitches because my expensive randomization cubes are now more expensive, and that's BAD! Whaaan!"

It's a case of,

"Why on Earth would I spend that much cash on six sided randomization devices? Am I so shallow as to believe that by pimping my gaming aids will somehow make my enjoyment of this game greater? I should probably remove myself from the genetic lottery, instead."

This is honestly the most entitlement-based whining I've ever seen. You can get dirt-cheap dice anywhere, and spend the leftovers on your modeling supplies. Claiming that more expensive dice is somehow limiting your modeling purchases, when el-cheapo dice are available, is just such an entitlement-based thought process.

Its only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. They wanna hand money over and promote that inflated prices are worth it, then that's up to them. If the "community" refused it, then it wouldn't happen.

No problem with flipping, for those exact reasons.

 greatbigtree wrote:
They're dice.

Seriously. They're dice.

If they're a collector item, then the market will determine their selling price. If GW is selling them for X, and the market is willing to pay X+Y, then that's what they're really worth. It's not a case of,

"Whaann! People are bitches because my expensive randomization cubes are now more expensive, and that's BAD! Whaaan!"

It's a case of,

"Why on Earth would I spend that much cash on six sided randomization devices? Am I so shallow as to believe that by pimping my gaming aids will somehow make my enjoyment of this game greater? I should probably remove myself from the genetic lottery, instead."

This is honestly the most entitlement-based whining I've ever seen. You can get dirt-cheap dice anywhere, and spend the leftovers on your modeling supplies. Claiming that more expensive dice is somehow limiting your modeling purchases, when el-cheapo dice are available, is just such an entitlement-based thought process.

Wow... I'm assuming you recognize the irony of being so condescending and morally superior about how much people want 'special' dice when you're clearly involved in a hobby where you buy and play with toy soldiers. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean there isn't any there.

I don't think it's unreasonable to be frustrated when someone creates an artificial supply shortage in order to drive up prices and make a profit. Yes, they're totally allowed to do so, but no, we don't have to like it.

 greatbigtree wrote:


Am I so shallow as to believe that by pimping my gaming aids will somehow make my enjoyment of this game greater?

Pimping my gaming aids actually does make my enjoyment of the game greater, so "bah" to you!




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I don't think people have to like it, but it wouldn't exist if people didn't make those higher-than-rrp purchases and perpetuate it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has purchased something simply because I know I can sell it for more because of the demand, rather than artificially creating that demand by buying ALL of them. I did that because the market already existed, because there are people that I knew would 1) not be able to get one normally and 2) would be willing to pay whatever the market value ended up being once it was sold out everywhere.

My "position of moral superiority" comes from my NOT complaining about the luxury of enjoying an expensive hobby. I say that without irony, because I don't have my head jammed in my feces evacuation port.

You want to be frustrated because OUR luxury hobby has a luxury within it, that you feel is too expensive? That's an entitled position. The real-world truth is that these dice are something a person wants.

I want a gakker made of gold. For real. I want that. I'd love to drop a turd on a golden throne. But I can't afford it. Instead, I line my bowl with gold foil and pretend it's made of real gold.

The point?

I can't afford it, so I can't have it. I make "doo" with what I've got, and I don't complain about it. Because I'm not an entitled whiny-pants.

"I think it's slightly different when you're buying discontinued models that have been unavailable for years. Plus the price stabilizes, you have some limited or old items that simply can't be sold at higher prices because they are not popular so people will not buy them."

I mostly agree: there is a difference, but I think it sets instant reselling in a broader context.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My "position of moral superiority" comes from my NOT complaining about the luxury of enjoying an expensive hobby. I say that without irony, because I don't have my head jammed in my feces evacuation port.

You want to be frustrated because OUR luxury hobby has a luxury within it, that you feel is too expensive? That's an entitled position. The real-world truth is that these dice are something a person wants.

I want a gakker made of gold. For real. I want that. I'd love to drop a turd on a golden throne. But I can't afford it. Instead, I line my bowl with gold foil and pretend it's made of real gold.

The point?

I can't afford it, so I can't have it. I make "doo" with what I've got, and I don't complain about it. Because I'm not an entitled whiny-pants.

You may not be an entitled whiny-pants, but you're definitely not someone I'd want in my community if you're going to insult anyone who values something you don't see as valuable.

Guys, please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Please state your views without flinging the personal insults. Thanks!

Scalpers are literally, by definition, parasites. They take money out of the community without adding any value whatsoever.

You can just about successfully argue that people flogging event-limited items on ebay at a ridiculous markup are adding value by allowing those unable to attend the event to get one, and in that case I'd say the problem is GW/FW not resellers, but when you're talking about an item where the only restriction on availability is the number for sale? No, there's no justification for that. GW/FW are still culpable for making a lot of their stuff artificially scarce, but that scarcity wouldn't be as bad if scalping scumbags weren't buying up often multiple of the same items for the sole purpose of relisting them on ebay at a huge markup.

The only people in this situation I have a lower opinion of than scalpers are people who defend scalpers, and I can't fully express my views on the former without riling the mods, so yeah.

I think Yodhrin has the right analysis. Scalpers in many cases are just taking advantage of GW's own crap marketing/operations. I can understand GW wanting to conservatively estimate demand. The problem is when they do that in conjunction with explicit or implicit marketing patter around terms like "limited edition" or "sold out." Just keep in mind that Spulk '09 has been reprinted at least twice since its supposedly limited original run.

There is also another side you may disagree.

My friend got two space hulks. One for fun, one for after.
Sold that few months later but that's how they also top up the hobby budget to afford nicer stuff.

When budgets tight. Sometimes you need some creatively.

Sure but the only reason people get away with fleecing others like that is because GW sets the whole thing up in the first place.

 Kriswall wrote:

You may not be an entitled whiny-pants, but you're definitely not someone I'd want in my community if you're going to insult anyone who values something you don't see as valuable.

Words you've put in my mouth.

I don't believe that there's "no value" in the dice. I wouldn't pay the base price, much less the "market" price for fancy dice, but I've never said they're without value. I appreciate nice dice. I appreciate them to the point I've taken the time to craft a set of 10 from aluminum, for a school project. I really liked them. Heavy, I had to roll them on a separate table, but I liked them. I must also admit, in my carelessness I've lost them. I quit playing for a while and I also lost a handful of models... sigh. If a person is willing to shell out for those fancy dice, all the power to them. It's their money.

Again, I'm saying that complaining about the COST of a luxury within a luxury is pointless. It displays an attitude in which, "I want it, so I deserve it, and it's not fair to me that someone else is making these more expensive, because it's harder for me to get all the pretties that I deserve." I find that attitude insufferable. Regardless of whether or not a person possesses that attitude, it appears that way to myself, as an outside observer.

I have found a more useful attitude in life is to look at a luxury as something I want, but don't need or necessarily deserve simply by wanting it. In that case, I decide how to ration my disposable income, and then decide how to make the most of it. In this case, I would determine that I would rather buy cheap dice, and have more models, than have expensive dice and fewer models. Other people are free to choose otherwise, and I'm not lying when I say I've seen some really cool dice, that I would have paid slightly more for than regular dice. But I would never pay a "premium" for dice, because I don't value them that much. If someone else chooses to pay, then that's their business. But complaining about the cost... If you feel it's worth it, pay it. If it's not worth it, don't.

I'm saying that complaining about not being able to have one's cake and eat it too is something that will diminish my opinion of a person, or anyone else that I know. If a person pays for an item, and I think it's cool, I'll compliment them and wish them well. Only if they gripe about being "ripped off" over the cost of that luxury would I be... put off. So if access to the special community in which everyone loves everything, and nobody is different, and differences in how valuable dice are isn't allowed, I guess I'm going to live with that.

And not complain about it.


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 Manchu wrote:
Sure but the only reason people get away with fleecing others like that is because GW sets the whole thing up in the first place.

Would you rather that GW inflates their prices, so that scalping becomes a no-profit option? You can't scalp a $400 box set if people will only pay the up-front $400. That way GW would make more profit, and that's a good thing for the hobby, right? Scalping only works when an item can be resold at a higher price. It's the whole practice of wholesale to distributors to shops to end users.

 Manchu wrote:
I think Yodhrin has the right analysis. Scalpers in many cases are just taking advantage of GW's own crap marketing/operations. I can understand GW wanting to conservatively estimate demand. The problem is when they do that in conjunction with explicit or implicit marketing patter around terms like "limited edition" or "sold out." Just keep in mind that Spulk '09 has been reprinted at least twice since its supposedly limited original run.

A limited run doesn't necessarily mean things won't come back. It just means it's a limited run. Infinity had a "limited run" on the Cosplay Bolt model, yet the Cosplayer whose webstore is the only place to get it has gotten restocked several times.

And really, scalpers aren't just taking advantage of GW's "own crap marketing/operations". They also take advantage of the fact that gamers have little to no patience or willingness to actually look into things themselves, instead wanting to just complain.

Look at the Canoness model for an example of this. How many times did people repost the statements from the Warhammer Community team that after she sold out for preorders or in stores, she'd still be available via ordering from GW Direct?


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 Manchu wrote:
Sure but the only reason people get away with fleecing others like that is because GW sets the whole thing up in the first place.

I mean, let's be honest. What can they realistically do to prevent this from happening?

1 per customer on their webstore, checked against billing/shipping info?

I think it is actually a lot simpler than you are making it out to be. People respond to a basic sense of fairness. Scalping violates that very reasonable sensibility. It's even worse when a company can be seen as taking no action or even implicitly endorsing the practice.

GW could help curb scalping by curbing its own marketing patter around false scarcity. It's understandable that they want to give the impression of urgency but selling through stock fast has to be balanced against creating anger and disappointment in your customers.

Forge World somewhat limits the practice in a limited capacity by limiting event only models to one per buyer until some time in the afternoon, at which point they'll assume that attendees who wanted one got one and allow people to buy as many as they want. Not perfect, but at least it prevents certain donkey-caves from buying up large swaths of stock when the event has only just begun.

 Manchu wrote:
I think it is actually a lot simpler than you are making it out to be. People respond to a basic sense of fairness. Scalping violates that very reasonable sensibility. It's even worse when a company can be seen as taking no action or even implicitly endorsing the practice.

That's not really an answer. People respond to a sense of fairness...except when it's something they want, then screw it.
Dice sets from GW have been limited to 1 per order for quite some time, at least during the initial preorders. They've taken action on that.

They even set it up so that if you tried to order an individual dice set AND a bundle containing dice, it would flag it and make you remove one or the other.

GW could help curb scalping by curbing its own marketing patter around false scarcity. It's understandable that they want to give the impression of urgency but selling through stock fast has to be balanced against creating anger and disappointment in your customers.

Customers could also help curb scalping by not buying from them at exorbitant prices.
It's easy to pin all the blame on GW, but look at the people still buying the Canoness from eBay at even $10 over the price that GW is selling her for whenever they put her back up for order.

It just requires PATIENCE.

Edit note:
Sorry if this is coming across as "Don't blame GW!". I'm just getting tired of people complaining about companies(GW and Corvus Belli most notably) claiming things as "Limited edition!" or "Limited availability!" and then buying it anyways, or complaining that they couldn't get multiples of it.

Many customers don't buy scalped products. I don't, for example. But it's a lot harder to control what an unknown number of individual customers will or won't do than it is for a single actor at the front end of the process to change its behavior. That's why what GW can do - and can easily do - about this is more important to talk about. And GW can easily be more transparent/truthful about its intentions. But this would take good faith on GW's part, because there doesn't really seem to be sufficient hard blowback on this issue, and I just doubt it will happen, even in the age of a kinder, gentler GW. They want to sell everything they publish. If that means underestimating product demand and creating false information that ratchets up secondary market prices, GW will likely be okay with that.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm just getting tired of people complaining about companies(GW and Corvus Belli most notably) claiming things as "Limited edition!" or "Limited availability!" and then buying it anyways, or complaining that they couldn't get multiples of it.

Sure, when it is advertised that way up front. I don't recall the Skaven BB dice being advertised as limited edition, or the 1ksons dice either. I managed to get 1ksons dice because I F5'd until I could add them to my cart and check out. I only did that because apparently, from my experience missing out on the Skaven BB dice, that is now what is required - not because GW advertsied it at all. Again, back to fairness.

One thing to take into consideration, IMO, is how much of the false information is actually coming from GW proper and not from independents with trade accounts.


Occasionally we get a few posters here on Dakka from independents who claim that things are going to be limited run, when the case is that the availability to independents is limited.


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 Manchu wrote:

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 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm just getting tired of people complaining about companies(GW and Corvus Belli most notably) claiming things as "Limited edition!" or "Limited availability!" and then buying it anyways, or complaining that they couldn't get multiples of it.

Sure, when it is advertised that way up front. I don't recall the Skaven BB dice being advertised as limited edition, or the 1ksons dice either. I managed to get 1ksons dice because I F5'd until I could add them to my cart and check out. I only did that because apparently, from my experience missing out on the Skaven BB dice, that is now what is required - not because GW advertsied it at all. Again, back to fairness.

How is it exactly surprising that specialty dice, a long-standing limited run item, were a limited run?

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is it exactly surprising that specialty dice, a long-standing limited run item, were a limited run?

Pretty surprising in the BB case. The excellent boxed set comes with color-coded team dice. It made sense that the third available team would have its own dice, as well. Since the Skaven team did not seem to be limited, it followed that the dice would probably not be limited. Even now, I don't believe "limited" means anything more than "we will reprint if/when it suits us." After seeing the GC Cult dice fly off the website, I had a much stronger case for constructive notice regarding the 1k Sons dice. But if you look at ebay, those prices are closer to MSRP. I wonder if it is because there is confidence in among customers that 1k Sons dice will be back or if custom dice just have a stronger value for BB than 40k/AoS.

Free market luxury items have nothing to do with fairness, though.

Quite frankly, we are all in good shape if we can afford to play this game in the first place. It's not fair that someone wants to play, but can't afford it. It's not fair that pay to win can be a thing. But it is. If someone can buy anything and resell it at a profit, that's the way of the world. I could, hypothetically, buy a car directly from the factory, but they won't do that.

Why?

Because there's a distributor network in place. Salespeople that take a cut of the final price. Support networks that provide logistics, and parts to maintain those vehicles. The costs of keeping a roof over the head of the mechanics. People make money, but have costs.

Scalping is the entrepreneur's version of distribution markup. Simple as that. It's not like they're buying all the food in a grocery store and then jacking the price. They're buying toys, and then selling them to other people that are willing to pay a higher price for the toys. Fair doesn't enter the equation. Believing this is an issue of fairness assumes that the believer already has stake in the product. That they are entitled to access to that product, at the lowest cost. This is not true, and is the basis for my points.

Cost for an item can only be unfair if it is too high AND a necessity. A luxury item is not a necessity. GW, nor any luxury company, owes it's consumer access to their product. They have to pay for it.