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I was just watching Dave Rubin's interview of Jerry Coyne, and it struck me that anti-theists never really say WHY creationism is bad. I have heard plenty of arguments against religion as an institution (the vast majority of which make complete sense), but never any saying why it is just wrong for someone to believe that there is some kind of god or creator; only general assumptions that creationism is evil and needs to be stopped without any established reasoning for wanting to stop it, other than thinking that there isn't any evidence for it.
Thus my question is the same as the title: what is wrong with creationism? why should all theists become atheists?

It is not at all. It's just that in the USA the creationists have the power to suppress fact-based belief, and many of them wield that power when they can.

It's not creationism, it's the creationists.

^ That. If we discard my personal opinion, the above is a more objective explanation.

 JimOnMars wrote:
It is not at all. It's just that in the USA the creationists have the power to suppress fact-based belief, and many of them wield that power when they can.

It's not creationism, it's the creationists.

Exactly. If someone believes in creationism, so be it. No body really has any issues with that. But pushing religious beliefs to be taught is the big part. Religion is fine, it just shouldn't be taught in schools. Especially in science classes, as it has no scientific basis.

Creationism in the USA is used to further fringe religious beliefs, especially anti-science beliefs. Creationists want their brand of reality (humans walked with dinosaurs 6000 years ago) to be taught in schools on equal footing with actual reality.

Creationism is one of those things you might refer to as an "alternative fact".

Because fantasy has no place in fact-based education. Students go to school to learn about reality, and teaching things that don't adhere to reality is counterproductive.

As an aside, I do think it is worthwhile to cover religions as part of a child's education, from a historical and societal standpoint. My wife is a high school teacher and ignorance of the beliefs of others tends to result in a high degree of intolerance.

Cover the belief systems, just don't preach the teachings.

Yes. Teach that it exists, and the purposes that it has served throughout history. Teach why certain religious teachings exist. Do not preach in school.

Just for reference, you should specify which creationism you are talking about. Don’t forget the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:
what is wrong with creationism?

Because it's not falsifiable. On its own, that's fine, but since falsifiability is pretty much the cornerstone on science, teaching something that violates that principle as "fact" pretty much flies in the face of that. Almost nothing taught in creationism (or 'intelligent design,' which is re-branded creationism) can be proven false; we can't test supernatural claims about the world or life.

why should all theists become atheists?

This question has nothing to do with the first.

Because it isn't true.

/thread

It's not evil in itself, but it is a primitive bronze age myth and just not true. We know better now.

Part of the problem when talking about creationism is that it can take many different forms.

The most extreme, an the one I think most people assume when talking about creationism is "young earth creationism" which insists that the earth is literally only 6,000 years old and that Genesis is the true historical account of what actually happened when it was created in a few actual 24 hour days. There ain't nothing reconcilable between that belief and any kind of science.

On the other side of the spectrum is the very light "God started it" creationism that believes in science, evolution, the Big Bang, etc. The only area where creationism comes in is that someone like that just thinks "God set the whole thing in motion somehow, let's do more science to learn more about how the universe created by God works". This can be compared to "this all started by chance somehow, let's do more science to learn more about how the universe created by chance works". If someone is a creationist along those lines, then "creationism" only really becomes a problem if at some point they stop doing science and settle on "God did it, there is no reason to dig deeper".

Creationism is only bad when it takes the place of science, which young earth creationism (the one often pushed by anti-evolution "I want this taught in school" type folks) clearly does.

why should all theists become atheists?

Credibility. What would you think of a grown adult that still believes in the tooth fairy or father Christmas? To me, claiming a genuine belief in God has much the same feeling.

 Verviedi wrote:
Because fantasy has no place in fact-based education. Students go to school to learn about reality, and teaching things that don't adhere to reality is counterproductive.

With the new government, we just call creationism, alternative facts

Like most things Creationism isn't really the problem. The problem is people who want to force their religious beliefs on others. Creationism and Intelligent Design are not science, and do not belong in any class labeled such. They have a place in a class on religion, literature, or culture, but you're unlikely to find the first in K-12 education, and the later two are likely to include non-Christian perspectives when they appear in higher education (which the people who want Creationism taught in schools don't like).

The problem isn't the idea. It's certain people.

Crispy78 wrote:

why should all theists become atheists?

Credibility. What would you think of a grown adult that still believes in the tooth fairy or father Christmas? To me, claiming a genuine belief in God has much the same feeling.

I think that's a bit unfair on people who follow a religion. I'm all for people believing stuff if it makes their miserable existences feel more meaningful, and the basis of most religions (nutjobs aside) is "be excellent to each other". Writing it off as believing in a tooth fairy is disingenuous.

Of course, I'm not saying that it should be taught in schools as fact (and how the US has schools which teach creationism as science totally baffles me). But on a personal basis it should be nurtured and people should be encouraged to believe whatever they want if it makes them feel better.

Herzlos wrote:
I think that's a bit unfair on people who follow a religion. I'm all for people believing stuff if it makes their miserable existences feel more meaningful, and the basis of most religions (nutjobs aside) is "be excellent to each other". Writing it off as believing in a tooth fairy is disingenuous.

Especially when not every religion even depends on believing supernatural being that controls all. Of course one could ask is that even religion but at least officially they are classified as religion so I'm calling them religion even if they don't have god to believe in.

Herzlos wrote:
But on a personal basis it should be nurtured and people should be encouraged to believe whatever they want if it makes them feel better.

False beliefs should not be encouraged. Obviously we shouldn't persecute religious people or attempt to force them to stop believing, but we shouldn't pretend that there is anything true or worth nurturing about belief in a god.

I think the biggest problem, especially in America, is that some creationists get into positions of power and then attempt to put that belief into the education system.


But the biggest issue is that America does not have a state religion and the separation of state and church is written in the constitution, but is ignored by the people who want children to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old and has been through 2 mass extinctions in that period etc etc.

Teach both, but for different reasons.
Creationism would be taught as both religious theory and objective thought.
Evolution can be taught as science, with all of the evidence and background it has behind it. And in the same objective thinking lesson.

There is nothing objective about faith. The sooner everyone just accepts that and realizes that as human beings we do and think things for subjective reasons and that there's nothing wrong with that the better off we'll all be.

Faith is something you have, and you can't just give it to others like a formula to solve an equation. For that reason faith and belief have no place in classrooms about practical theory and mechanics. The sooner certain people stop trying to shoehorn God into science classrooms, the sooner we can all shake hands get over this nonsense and get some kickass world and comparative religion classes in our literature, history, and philosophy departments. So long as the debate remains focused on asinine attempts to equate religious belief with scientific theory, religion remains an adversarial conception and will be shut out.

As long as one kind of religion is not taught in any regard above the other religions (at least the major ones - you don't have to detail every itty bitty cult) then all is well. You can teach christianity if you want, as long as you also teach buddhism, hinduism, islam and so on.

And science.

Religious bias is where the problem is.

It's like teaching in school that yellow is the best colour. You can't do that, that's just an opinion (and a false one since objectively purple is the best colour).

 Skinnereal wrote:
Teach both, but for different reasons.
Creationism would be taught as both religious theory and objective thought.
Evolution can be taught as science, with all of the evidence and background it has behind it. And in the same objective thinking lesson.

This is related to public schools yes? In public schools religion, other than accommodations, should be kept separate. The should is due to the Constitution, and enlightened self interest. At the same time, rabid atheism should be kept out as well. Its not a topic needed to be addressed at all.

No celebrations of any faith (including atheism) over others. Here the French are correct as it protects everyone else from favoring one religion over another.

Besides the logical points made here already, as I noted in the last thread on the subject (the one where Bill Nye somehow didn't manage to flip his gak talking to that Aussie) - Pure Creationism - which defies any concept of Evolution, is kind of sort of against the Vatican's line.

The Vatican *accepted* the Theory of Evolution when it was first presented, just with the caveat that God had a hand in it. Creationism is a fringe belief outside of the regular Catholic church (which you can argue a lot of Christians are separate from the Vatican, but its a valid point regardless).

Just saying...

Crispy78 wrote:

why should all theists become atheists?

Credibility. What would you think of a grown adult that still believes in the tooth fairy or father Christmas? To me, claiming a genuine belief in God has much the same feeling.

It's this form of identity politics that largely contributes to the political quagmire we're in today with both sides re-inventing the truth to better support their narratives.

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:
I was just watching Dave Rubin's interview of Jerry Coyne, and it struck me that anti-theists never really say WHY creationism is bad. I have heard plenty of arguments against religion as an institution (the vast majority of which make complete sense), but never any saying why it is just wrong for someone to believe that there is some kind of god or creator; only general assumptions that creationism is evil and needs to be stopped without any established reasoning for wanting to stop it, other than thinking that there isn't any evidence for it.
Thus my question is the same as the title: what is wrong with creationism? why should all theists become atheists?

I think you have two ideas conflated. Creationism really only applies to the idea that the whole world was created at some point in the past by a powerful being, and this needs to be taught in schools as a scientific explanation of the origin of our world. Not just atheists, but any individual believing in science and scientific evidence regards this as wrong.

I think you may have that mixed up with the idea that there is some being, or group of beings out there more powerful than we are, which is theism. Theism does not require belief in Creationism. Theism is diametrically opposed to atheism, of course. But many theists are also opposed to creationists. I hope that helps clear it up- I tried to phrase this as neutrally as possible. These threads never tend to last too long.

Lots of beliefs and superstitions seem innocent enough. The problem happens when those beliefs are assumed to be true, and then start informing other decisions. When you make decisions based on false assumptions, it becomes much more likely that you will arrive at the wrong conclusion, and make a mistake. Some mistakes can really hurt people.

What creationists believe is demonstrably false, it can be demonstrated in about a hundred different ways that the story couldn't possibly be true, to the satisfaction of any reasonable and objective person. Unfortunately, creationists aren't able to be objective about it, because their religion is deeply held, and is probably an important part of their upbringing, their family life, and their community. It can be understandably difficult to hear someone tell you that everything you believe is wrong, and that your parents, whom you loved and respected, were also wrong. They don't want to believe it (who would?), but regardless of what they want, the facts speak for themselves.

To give you an analogy, we could consider the Father Christmas myth. An innocent story that we frequently tell to children, and it doesn't hurt anyone. But imagine if people really believed it... Imagine a world where we had adults lobbying the government for legislation that ensured all chimneys were wide enough for Santa, and we had to have reindeer docking facilities on our roofs. These laws would serve no function, as they are based on the false assumption that Santa exists. However, they would inconvenience real people, and cost real time and money, funds would be diverted away from "real" issues, building regulations might put further strain on affordable housing. Eventually, somewhere along the line, someone won't get the help they need, or the Christmas party will get voted in, and something important will be sidelined for this nonsense, and someone will end up suffering or dying because of it.

Creationism and other similar Christian extremism is already causing these problems: undermining education, lobbying for political power, interfering with important medical research, interfering with women's right to choose, and preaching hatred and discrimination against homosexuals. And all in the name of something which isn't even true.

That's what is wrong with Creationism.

 Peregrine wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
But on a personal basis it should be nurtured and people should be encouraged to believe whatever they want if it makes them feel better.

False beliefs should not be encouraged. Obviously we shouldn't persecute religious people or attempt to force them to stop believing, but we shouldn't pretend that there is anything true or worth nurturing about belief in a god.

You know, I used to be quite a hard atheist like you. But when you start listening to people like Dawkins and his followers, you realise just how preachy and mirror sounding they are to the hard-core religious types. Almost like it's turned into their own religion. I personally turned agnostic, because while I don't necessarily believe in the idea of a creator God, I don't dismiss the idea entirely. Simply because we don't have the ability to say one way or the other. But in terms of schools, let them teach RE classes, just not as hard fact. That's up to the child to decide if they want to follow a religion and in what way.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
But on a personal basis it should be nurtured and people should be encouraged to believe whatever they want if it makes them feel better.

False beliefs should not be encouraged. Obviously we shouldn't persecute religious people or attempt to force them to stop believing, but we shouldn't pretend that there is anything true or worth nurturing about belief in a god.

You know, I used to be quite a hard atheist like you. But when you start listening to people like Dawkins and his followers, you realise just how preachy and mirror sounding they are to the hard-core religious types. Almost like it's turned into their own religion. I personally turned agnostic, because while I don't necessarily believe in the idea of a creator God, I don't dismiss the idea entirely. Simply because we don't have the ability to say one way or the other. But in terms of schools, let them teach RE classes, just not as hard fact. That's up to the child to decide if they want to follow a religion and in what way.

Summed up my feelings entirely.

Hardcore atheists are just as bad as firebrand preachers.