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Greetings Designers,

Recently, when discussing Legion the topic of Proprietary Dice came up (along with a few other topics for later) that I figured would be better suited here. They are a common feature in many modern wargames such as X-wing, Legion, MCP, and others. They are also a common element in Role-Playing Game Design as well.

What is your take on them? How have you used the concept? What are the benefits? What are the drawbacks?

As an old timer, I am not a fan and see them as more of a barrier of entry to play but a great method to monetize your game components. A recent example of this, is I was about to buy the new Legends of the 5 Rings RPG book. However, the only way I could get the dice at my FLGS was by spending another large some on a starter set I did not really want. The dice themselves were OOO and had been on back order for months from the supplier. The result was.... no sale. This lack of the necessary components was a barrier of entry to me.

That said, in L5R (and related FFG systems) I have seen them create interesting results and mechanics. Therefore, I also know they can allow a player a different level of detail/depth to the gaming experience. I was seeking to try this out for myself based on the actual plays I had watched and listened too. So in that sense, the Prop Dice worked as a Hook for me in this case.

So, enough of me rambling. What is your thoughts?

As an aspiring tabletop game designer, even one that might -want- to monetize components with proprietary dice, I have to give proprietary dice a thumbs-down.

Not only are they a barrier to entry as you mentioned, but they also obfuscate the odds to a player. You may need to roll a HIT on that die, but not realize there's only two HIT's on what may be a d8 or larger. And if one takes the time to count out the number of faces of each type, the game may as well express things in terms of [number]+.

Also, this is coming from an RPG standpoint, but I typically find that if success at a task is determined by anything more elaborate than die+modifiers to beat DC or dice pool and count successes, they're very likely overdoing it.

As long as the starter provides a proper amount of them, I'm okay with them on the whole. That said, it is annoying that so many games these days basically require their own set of components to play. That said, they have their advantages. As much as I like pip dice, I think they're best in something like Warmachine where you're adding values together as opposed to filtering out X+ values from the pile. Counting paint is pretty intuitive and works well with custom dice much of the time. Probably the best reason to include pip dice is if you want your game to have modifiers that alter what faces succeed.

I mostly think it comes down to whether you use the dice to facilitate something that wouldn't work as well with standard dice. Legion, for example, uses the dice colors to create single dice pools with weapons of different odds. It creates some unique and interesting dice curves that would be clunky without them. Their armor dice on the other hand are..... really unnecessary.

Monsterpocalypse simlarly uses its custom dice for pools of varying odds and also tracks resources with them. Pretty fond of this setup on the whole. Warcaster and Riot Quest use the same dice for some of the same purpose, but I don't find either uses it quite as well.

MCP uses dice with a lot of unique symbols (D8 with 5 unique symbols, only one duplicated) and then uses those different symbols in consistent but novel and unique ways to provide a lot of character variety with a fairly small pool of dice. To me, it justifies the 10 custom dice a lot better than the 15 that came with Legion (that really demands you buy more).

Godtear is a game that does nothing with its custom dice. Not really a fan. Judgement however, uses them very well, creating quick and simple rolls with interesting decisions of how you apply the results. This is a great example of the kind of unique mechanics you can create with custom dice.

I generally prefer standard dice and I also generally see custom dice as companies trying to get more $ out of me.

However, custom dice are fine when they are:
-Supplied in the necessary numbers in the initial game, pack or starter set
-Are integral to core game mechanics that would be more difficult with standard dice.
-Speed up gameplay.

A few examples:

FFG(Now Amodee) seems to be a consistent example of the good and bad. All their games seem to have special dice. They do a very good job integrating them into the rules, often combining two results on a single roll, streamlining the game mechanics. However every core FFG game I've purchased includes the minimum number of dice to barely be functional, but few enough that most players end up spending more on a second pack to avoid having to reroll results. It's a cash grab you can see coming every time, but if you're willing to pay FFG prices for a game, you're probably ok shelling out another $15 for a second set of dice. Coincidentally, just this morning my buddy asked me if he needed to bring his own set of dice to our BattleLore game on Monday because he knows they don't include enough in the box.

Bolt Action/K47 is a good example of where the dice determine activation (by pull) and orders/status (by what side is placed upward). Sort of like FFG though, if you get more units that your starter box, you're going to have to buy another pack of dice.

Heroquest is a case where the dice are fairly key to play, they are provided in sufficient number and they do make play easier.

Generally, I don't like them. There are times when they're used well (Blood Bowl block dice for example), in a way that would be harder to do with standard numbered dice. I *really* don't like it when they're essentially masking "4+" type results like dice that have blanks and little "hit" icons. If it isn't doing something more than that, then just use regular dice.

I think it sounds like the general feeling (including my own) is that they suck if they are representing a 4+ type result, but they work if they are representing a "roll on this table and see what happens" kind of result. Prime example for me being Gaslands where you roll to see what happens if you skid or slide or what. It does work on a D6, and you can get used to it, but having the results on the dice rather than on a table works better.

Personal final view is I like it when they are optional, like gaslands - you can use a normal dice and the table in the book, or you can use a fancy dice you can buy as an optional extra. Those are the ones I like!

 some bloke wrote:
I think it sounds like the general feeling (including my own) is that they suck if they are representing a 4+ type result, but they work if they are representing a "roll on this table and see what happens" kind of result. Prime example for me being Gaslands where you roll to see what happens if you skid or slide or what. It does work on a D6, and you can get used to it, but having the results on the dice rather than on a table works better.

That's part of it for sure. Reaching for different colored dice rather than consulting a table is nearly always a good thing in my book.

However, I think the best custom dice combine multiple mechanics or effects into one roll. For example, your combat roll in Imperial Assault will tell you whether or not your shot was able to reach the enemy via numbers that must add up to the range, but it also tells you how many hits are scored via symbols and whether certain heroic abilities are available to use. Plus, since the dice are different and each attack has a certain set of dice, a given attacks unique potency, frequency, accuracy and the characters' likelihood for heroics are all baked into one roll.

That's the sort of where FFG games shine. Runewars and Battlelore had similar multi-mechanic dice. On the other hand FFG sometimes counteract that simplicity with too many cards...

I rarely if ever enjoy proprietary dice such as the FFG Star Wars RPG or Dungeon Crawl Classics. I don't mind when board games do it as much, but still prefer normal dice.

I don't mind them in boardgames, since those are contained experiences with their own sets of rules and included components.

However, I largelly started disliking propietary dice - as well as multiple cards, tokens and chits - in recent years, because it's just annoying to always carry them and think how many dice of what type you will need when starting another game. I thnk that Mortal Gods was a dealbreaker for me, since it quickly became exhausting to always carry multiple card, dice and token sets around, and in larger games the table is just drowning in randomly coloured objects and looks terrible. I try to avoid games I can't deal with by simply using a single deck of cards and common dice. Not worth the hassle.

depends how they are used, if as noted above by others is basically a lookup table of icon - result that could easily be number - result then its annoying

that said there are some advantages, e.g. a game I was working on was going to use percentile, so a pair of d10, instead I went with a paid of d12 - firstly d12 feel and I think roll nicer, but it also gave two extra sides - one got a tick, one got a cross

thus you have the percentile system, and can have +/- modifiers, but also can have a "success" and "fail" result - could do the same using a d8 in place of a d6 (yes I know the probabilities change, you build the game around it) 1-6 plus "success" and "failure", or a d10 so you have the following options:

- fail
- 0- (zero or less)
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- 7+ (seven or higher)
- pass

depends what you do with it however for me:

1. do something other than a lookup table (Warlord order dice idea is basically a look up but the single word works)

2. do something clever than a normal number range doesn't do

3. make it easy toi adapt blank dice with a marker pen, have all the dice described in the rule book

 SgtBANZAI wrote:
I don't mind them in boardgames, since those are contained experiences with their own sets of rules and included components.

However, I largelly started disliking propietary dice - as well as multiple cards, tokens and chits - in recent years, because it's just annoying to always carry them...

As mentioned above, I like some special dice, but I'm always in favor of less cards, tokens and chits. I like these bits less and less the more I game. I don't know why I liked Runewars so much (which had cards, cards, chits and tokens in addition to special dice) but generally I like to not need more tokens than Kings of War where there's almost no use for them until a unit gets shaken, and the two most popular free and cheap KOW army list programs will produce a printed sheet with information about the magic items (some folks use cards for these) and spells all on the sheet.

Sometimes though, special dice can make for less tokens. Consider Bolt Action/K47 where the dice take the place of activation and status markers, and when drawn from a bag establish activation order. There are still pin dials, but the dice do away with almost all other bits.

I think when you consider the "barrier to entry" for a game you've got to consider what your target market is first and foremost.


Dice are simple and cheap to purchase. In fact of all the accessories and parts for most games dice are perhaps some of the cheapest and the price for them is often easily rolled into a standard getting started or duel army or game pack etc...

So they are really only a barrier to entry if:
1) Your market and product is predominantly online and digital

2) Your product is aimed at the exceptionally low price market.



Correctly used they can be not only part of the theme and feel of the game, even if they are just masking the stats of a normal dice; but also a modest profit earner for you. By using your own dice symbols outside of the standard numerical it means you can help guarantee a portion of income per player being spent on dice (even if that's part of a getting started set or similar). It also means more chance to supply standard game dice and then unique faction or other feature dice for the game alongside.
People like custom dice and the like and by using your own designs it restricts the choices players have.



So I think there are sensible reasons, financially, to consider them as a potential game mechanic.
I think there's scope for them to be part of the fun of the game in a visual sense and as part of the theme/style of the game.
Finally they are pretty cheap and should easily be sold within starter packs, rule packs or similar and shouldn't pose a high barrier of entry. At least based on the general buy-in price of many tabletop games in the physical market.





Of course you can easily take things too far. Eg if you used custom dice and required players to have large collections of them, then you're possibly abusing the concept and going too far.
Going too far is always a potential risk with any venture that can easily outweigh the positive elements and take an overall positive or at least neutral element; into the negative.



Plus, as noted above as well, how much custom stuff you require in total has to be taken into account. If the game is already heavy on cards and tokens and such are you perhaps making an overly complex game reliant on too many custom elements and are those custom elements actually adding quality, depth and fun to the game or just bloating it.

So whilst you can consider them in isolation, you also have to consider them alongside the rest of the product. Which again also feeds back into who your target market is.

It is not the expense of the dice that is the issue, it is the availability of the dice that is an issue. If you have a game you can not play as you can not get the dice you need to play it; that is a barrier of entry.

True, but you can say that about any game component. If you can't get the rule book; if you can't get the models or the dice or the app or whatever.


Sure you can do things like make the rules free online to try and mitigate supply issues in one area. However if your company is simply unable to provide what many consider, a basic part of the gaming package - ergo dice - then it likely suggests that something is going wrong. Either you've not invested enough; or there are major supply/delivery issues going on (that might well stretch way beyond your own firm); or you are failing on some front in the company setup and need to address it etc..


If you can't deliver dice reliably then you either address the issues and resolve them; ride out the supply issues (eg short term sales spike causing supply shortfall); or change the product. Eg you make exclusive dice then fail to supply then you either remove dice in an update/version two; or mitigate by changing dice to regular D6 (ergo that 3rd parties can supply).

see also other items, especially bits meant to be "optional" but in practice are required (looking at you Battlefront with your "command cards" that really should be in the rulebooks)

Aside from supply issues proprietary dice can absolutely be a useful tool. In a game like 40k, where you're just using the dice as a pass/fail mechanic with a target number it would be a shameless cash grab and/or very poor design but there are plenty of cases where it's far more than a pass/fail mechanic. Look at games like the FFG Star Wars games where the dice have multiple possible results. X-Wing has success, failure, and a conditional success that you can spend resources to confirm. Armada has hit, crit, miss, "defender can't spend a token", double hit, hit and crit, with different colors of dice representing different weapon types by having different subsets of those results. Mid-range ion weapons have no misses but also no bonus hits, for a textbook high floor low ceiling option. Short-range ordnance has misses but the devastating hit + crit result on two (out of eight) faces, for a weapon with high average damage but also high variability (and one that benefits significantly from dice modification). Yeah, you could use normal D8s and a table of results but that's going to be a pain in the ass to keep referencing, especially when a ship can roll multiple colors of dice simultaneously. The game experience is significantly improved by having the custom dice, just as long as FFG can keep them in stock.

Yeah, availability of dice can be a real issue. If the core box includes 4, but you really need 6+ to play smoothly it's a problem for the gamer if they aren't readily available. My biggest beef is that it seems that the games that do this are the ones that are premium priced already.

"It's not enough to pay us more, you've also got to pay us more."

It really speaks to a larger industry trend of "Game as Product" rather than "Product is a Game".

That is an issue for another thread though.

I really have not seen anything prop dice do, that regular, polyhedron dice can not do just as well? I see the example of FFG bandied about a lot. So you have pass, fail, crit, double hit and different faces on dice of different colors; i.e. red dice have more crits, where black dice have more fails...etc.

You can do essentially the same thing with any dice and use different die types, or even use building dice pools to change probabilities.

Sure, I maybe some old-school grognard elitist but I do not see anything particularly innovative about FFG (and similar dice systems) dice systems that make them inherently easier or better. I have very different design requirements as an Indie than I would have as a Corporate designer.

You can, but there's a lot more visual distinction between blank/not blank and whether or not something has the correct number of pips. Similarly when different sides do different things not having a mapping table to what they do speeds up a lot of things.

Functionally, any 6 sided cubes with marked surfaces are going to act the same way and the standard pips CAN absolutely be used for any purpose by the nature of each side having unique markings. Most proprietary dice are about speed of play more than anything. I think the best examples of this are games where the results are a variety of player choices like in Judgement or Gaslands or even Blood Bowl. Symbols are more intuitive for these results over trying to remember that a 5 is a skid while a 3 is a shift or whatever. You absolutely can play with a mapping table, but the dice resolve the gameplay quicker and keep the game moving at a better pace.

as noted, the physical dice are usually nothing special, if the rulebook describes the dice, how many of what symbols you have to the point some blank dice and a marker pen is good enough there isn't really an issue - fancy dice then become nice to have

 Easy E wrote:
You can do essentially the same thing with any dice and use different die types, or even use building dice pools to change probabilities.

You can, but then you need a translation table to convert from numerical die results to what they mean in game terms. It's much easier to use custom dice that give you the result directly.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
You can do essentially the same thing with any dice and use different die types, or even use building dice pools to change probabilities.

You can, but then you need a translation table to convert from numerical die results to what they mean in game terms. It's much easier to use custom dice that give you the result directly.

Very true.
When a custom dice handles more then one mechanic at a time, when results are not linear or numerical and especially when there are more than one type of dice rolled at once, to reduce all that to standard dice and charts would be a nightmare.