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I dunno, since space marines are all getting codex's, each guard regiment should get its own codex too.
codex cadian
codex mordian
codex tallarn
etc.

BanjoJohn wrote:
I dunno, since space marines are all getting codex's, each guard regiment should get its own codex too.
codex cadian
codex mordian
codex tallarn
etc.

I'd rather have Marines consolidated and have larger Codecs with plenty of options for all factions.

Not enough distinction between them.

For Marines? Possibly hypocritical given my comment immediately before, but giving them lots of different flavours, even if some aren’t all that different, helps prevent the dominant army in the game becoming entirely boring and predictable.

Black Templars for instance have a sufficiently different playstyle to Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels.

I think they could push the distinction somewhat between some though.

But for Guard? It’s just not there. The whole Codex offers a variety of options, from massed armour to massed infantry to massed artillery and everything in between.

Though I wouldn’t say no to Regiment Specific Specialists. For instance, a Catachan Saboteur type unit.

To be fair, if guard had the decades of support and flanderization that marines have had, they would probably have the same level of distinct playstles/gear which would be used to justify not wrapping them up together in one big guard codex.

I’m honestly not sure on that one.

Guard have not hurt for expansion. They did really well in 2nd Ed receiving loads of tanks (Russ, Demolisher, Griffon, Basilisk, Chimera, Hellhound) and of course different regiments.

Since then, you’ve loads of Russ variants, a bunch of Superheavies, new field artillery, the Manticore, Wyvern, Deathstrike, Hydra, two more Hellhound variants, various plastic infantry (especially in the past few years), the Dorn, Valkyrie and Taurox.

Yes it’s mostly variations on a theme. But that’s the Imperial Guard for you. They’re not a highly specialist fighting force. They’re the generalists. Sure, a given regiment might have a background specialisation but even then they’re still largely issued with the same basics.

I would love it. Small codexs, can be an addition tot he main codex. Aimed at flavour. though of course, no model, no rules...

Compared to Space Marines, Guard should have more variation. The great 3.5 Guard book gave us a taste of that, with whole regiments being armed or armored differently (all CC weapons or all Carapace Armor), plus the capacity to bring abhuman troops like Ogryns and Ratlings, including, in earlier in RT days, beastmen troops.

But my ideal as always would be to keep it in one book and provide ways to customize your own armies, rather than splitting them out into separate books.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m honestly not sure on that one.

Guard have not hurt for expansion. They did really well in 2nd Ed receiving loads of tanks (Russ, Demolisher, Griffon, Basilisk, Chimera, Hellhound) and of course different regiments.

Since then, you’ve loads of Russ variants, a bunch of Superheavies, new field artillery, the Manticore, Wyvern, Deathstrike, Hydra, two more Hellhound variants, various plastic infantry (especially in the past few years), the Dorn, Valkyrie and Taurox.

Yes it’s mostly variations on a theme. But that’s the Imperial Guard for you. They’re not a highly specialist fighting force. They’re the generalists. Sure, a given regiment might have a background specialisation but even then they’re still largely issued with the same basics.

My point is that if the guard regiments had received bespoke codexes and more unique units over the years they would look a lot like marines today. And the idea of having specific codexes for each would not seem odd. Catachans would feel like Space Wolves vs. Cadians/Ultramarnies.

If the 3rd ed codex supplement had been followed by more, and updated over the editions instead of being abandoned.

Each guard regiment should be more varied than the space marine chapters, they should get their own codex, or at least an army list within the codex.

Each guard regiment can have: Unique or variant tanks (sentinels, leman russ, chimera variants, different kinds of artillery)

Different weapon options for infantry/heavy weapon units.

Different special types of units, see catachan snipers, rough riders, etc.

Different leader units with different kinds of orders/command things.

Different average equipment, mesh, flak, carapace armor. Maybe there's a guard regiment that uses bolters instead of lasguns, or has elite units that come with bolters as standard. Or whatever else you could come up with.

Different kinds of abhumans to join the regiment, maybe some don't have ogryn's, maybe some have differently equipped ogryns, some do or don't have ratlings, maybe some do or don't have imperial beastmen, or other abhumans taht you could think of as unique units.

You could use and apply different kinds of imperial agents or advisors based on the regiment's preferences. Maybe commissars work differently depending on the regiment, maybe the imperial psykers assigned to one regiment fit one role more often than another.
Maybe one regiment has access to advisors that provide different bonuses based on the regiment or give access to orbital bombardment, or long range artillery bombardment, or different kinds of support.

There's tons of ways to vary guard regiments, its just that they haven't spent the time to do it.

When you're saying regiment, do you mean "recruiting world" or "regiment type"?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Though I wouldn’t say no to Regiment Specific Specialists. For instance, a Catachan Saboteur type unit.

I'm of this mind as well.

Give each regiment a couple of bespoke units and add more detachments so that each has a unique one.

- Each gets a command squad, a basic infantry squad a support/heavy weapon squad.
- Each gets at least one specialist squad / unit, but preferably two, though their could be some thematic overlap (Catachans and Tanith could both use a specialist sniper team in their ranks.)
- Upgrade sprue for vehicles to make them fit in more thematically for the varied armies.

I think that's the easiest most bang for our buck way to get the varied expression from the different regiments, without GW making a million new kits, which we all know they'll only ever do for Space Marines.

BanjoJohn wrote:
I dunno, since space marines are all getting codex's, each guard regiment should get its own codex too.
codex cadian
codex mordian
codex tallarn
etc.

No.

 Dysartes wrote:
When you're saying regiment, do you mean "recruiting world" or "regiment type"?

I get what you are asking.

Do I mean "Armored company" vs "Infantry Company" vs "Mechanized Infantry Company"
Or do I mean "Talarn" vs "Mordia" vs "Cadia", etc.

To which I say, yes, both.
I feel like a Cadian Armored Company would be different than a Talarn Armored Company, and maybe some worlds might not prefer to form regiments of a certain type, like one world might not have a Mechanized Infantry Company, like Catachan.

Codex Catachan would show what units the Catachans have, and what kind of regimental armies they can form, infantry company, etc.
Codex Talarn would do the same, Codex Mordia, Codex Valhalla, Codex Armageddon, Codex Vostroya, Codex Tanith, etc.

To me it wouldn't matter if each codex had to be shorter, but each guard world deserves their own codex, and their old metal minis deserve to be brought back as plastics.

A single regiment is bigger than a whole Chapter, and will include companies with vastly different fighting styles.
A recruiting world will be that times ten.

For example Necromunda will raise, infantry, light infantry, mechanised, armoured, superheavy, penal, native cavalry, drop troop, etc. regiments before we even consider non-standard formations or unit types.

Guard don't get Bloat on the same level as Marines because Marines sell better. There is no other justification.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
A single regiment is bigger than a whole Chapter, and will include companies with vastly different fighting styles.
A recruiting world will be that times ten.

Guard don't get Bloat on the same level as Marines because Marines sell better. There is no other justification.

But do Marines sell better because they're inherently more likeable, or because they receive the most support?

I fully believe that, in the past when 40k was just starting, Marines ended up being the popular faction without receiving tons of extra support. But today, it's an ouroboros. Marines receive the most support, so they get the most players, which means they get the most support...

Ah, if only.

Forgeworld did it, they had something like 5 (loyal) Imperial Guard codex/army lists.

Armored Company
Death Korps Siege Regiment
Death Korps Assault Brigade
Elysians
Elysians D-99 Detachment

The two Elysians were fairly overlap-y, if memory serves, but all those armies otherwise played differently than the Codex IG of the time. New units were created, new rules, sort of like GW does with Space Marines, and that made for very distinct armies, both in look and play style, to say that Marines can distinct Codex and Guard can't is just ridiculous

 JNAProductions wrote:
But do Marines sell better because they're inherently more likeable, or because they receive the most support?

Ah... the age old question. I think the two biggest reasons for marine popularity are a) Inclusion in every launch box and b) easiest infantry to paint.

Ongoing support IS also a factor, as is rule of cool... But I think the two factors above are greater drivers of popularity. Marines are included in so many boxes that's it's almost impractical not to play them. They are my least favourite army, but I have SO many of them, I decided to play Deathwatch so that they weren't just collecting dust. And I can paint them in half the time with half the effort that it took to paint my Drukhari.

If you go back to RT and 2nd Ed? Marines were popular yes. But they didn’t get especially preferential treatment in 28mm or Epic Scale.

That was the era of establishment, when it was being built from the ground up.

2nd Ed was the real codifying, where the mad, glorious anarchy of RT was smoothed out and the setting became, well, set. And models wise the armies got pretty fair treatment.

Sure, Marines got three and a half Codexes (counting Angels of Darkness as 1.5). But the range was pretty much shared across them.

So I’m not entirely persuaded that at that point, Marines got preferential treatment which unevenly boosted their popularity.

What they were was affordable and easy enough to paint to reasonable standard in a short space of time.

Now that’s not to say “therefore it’s fair that in 3rd-I want to say 8th they got consistent update waves where other armies didn’t”. Just that the original popularity wasn’t down to initial preferential treatment, as there was no preferential treatment.

I mean, stuff comes and goes.

Codex Harlequins and Codex Tempestus Scions and such existed, and were merged back into books. Stuff like TSons, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children were just part of the CSM Dex and got spun out into their own books. Supplements like Iyanden or Farsight Enclaves or whatever were around, when GW wanted to push a few new models for those books.


I wouldn't sweat it too much. If GW does new ... dunno ... Tallarn minis, they might throw out a stand alone Codex or "supplement" to push these minis. 5 years later, they might be rolled back into a faction.

Separate / not-separate books/Codexes is ultimately just a marketing tool. I would hang my enjoyment of the game on having them or some abstract equilibrium of rule-books/pages/whatever along the divides of fictional in-universe fluff. Seems silly to look at it that way.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not enough distinction between them.

For Marines? Possibly hypocritical given my comment immediately before, but giving them lots of different flavours, even if some aren’t all that different, helps prevent the dominant army in the game becoming entirely boring and predictable.

Black Templars for instance have a sufficiently different playstyle to Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels.

I think they could push the distinction somewhat between some though.

But for Guard? It’s just not there. The whole Codex offers a variety of options, from massed armour to massed infantry to massed artillery and everything in between.

Though I wouldn’t say no to Regiment Specific Specialists. For instance, a Catachan Saboteur type unit.

Sorry but that is complete and utter rubbush.

Guard regiments have always been far more distinct than Marines - Guard have primitives clad in furs, 18th century looking regiments complete with laslocks who march in lockstep, cavalry regiments with various creatures as mounts, jet pack units, airbourne units, regiments with cybernetics, units with steam powered power armour and walkers, units with laser reflective armour, etc etc

Contrast that to the Marines - even the ultra flanserised ones who have become little more than recurring jokes centered around a single word - Wolf, Dark, blood etc.

As they desperately added "unique" units to the Marines - they steadily took away all the flavour of the guard to make them all Cadian lite

Saying that it is rip for a concerted fan push. The real model variety comes from other manufacturers. A process that doesn't give in to whims, overpowering or pointless chrome would generate distinct regiments from other common ranges.

Such fan efforts exist with army lists for games like epic and while its not an easy process it is there.

Oh, of course it would require the base game to be better as current 40k is just too different from a wargame to have a fair development system.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not enough distinction between them.

For Marines? Possibly hypocritical given my comment immediately before, but giving them lots of different flavours, even if some aren’t all that different, helps prevent the dominant army in the game becoming entirely boring and predictable.

Black Templars for instance have a sufficiently different playstyle to Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels.

I think they could push the distinction somewhat between some though.

But for Guard? It’s just not there. The whole Codex offers a variety of options, from massed armour to massed infantry to massed artillery and everything in between.

Though I wouldn’t say no to Regiment Specific Specialists. For instance, a Catachan Saboteur type unit.

Sorry but that is complete and utter rubbush.

Guard regiments have always been far more distinct than Marines - Guard have primitives clad in furs, 18th century looking regiments complete with laslocks who march in lockstep, cavalry regiments with various creatures as mounts, jet pack units, airbourne units, regiments with cybernetics, units with steam powered power armour and walkers, units with laser reflective armour, etc etc

Contrast that to the Marines - even the ultra flanserised ones who have become little more than recurring jokes centered around a single word - Wolf, Dark, blood etc.

As they desperately added "unique" units to the Marines - they steadily took away all the flavour of the guard to make them all Cadian lite

And which of those can’t you assemble as a themed force using the core Codex? The rest is stylistic stuff, which is the realm of converting and kitbashing. I’m not arguing Marines get more than their share, and it’s been diminishing returns since I’d say Heavy Intercessors (who are cool, it’s what followed I’m meaning).

But given just ridiculously popular Marines are? They get some milage out of Chapter Specific Codexes. Guard don’t need that in the same way.

The stylistic stuff argument 100% applies to Marines, too. There's a far bigger difference in terms of capacity between a Cadian Lasgunner and a Death Korps Lasgunner than there are between a Dark Angel Tac Marine and an Ultramarine one.

There's a ton of ways different regiments can be implemented in game using rules and whatnot that would make them distinctive.

Options to swap for laspistol/melee, access to carapace (Without going full Scion) or the reverse, a horde of really poorly trained men with a horde mechanic of sorts.

None of which necessarily requires multiple codexes.

Look at the old Lost and the Damned IA:13. One list, an absolute riot of options.

At least with some of the Marine Codexes there’s stuff a given Chapter won’t have.

I'm not sure why anyone would want this. The worst part of marines is some of the stuff being locked behind extra books. It's more exploitation than special treatment.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The stylistic stuff argument 100% applies to Marines, too. There's a far bigger difference in terms of capacity between a Cadian Lasgunner and a Death Korps Lasgunner than there are between a Dark Angel Tac Marine and an Ultramarine one.

There's a ton of ways different regiments can be implemented in game using rules and whatnot that would make them distinctive.

Options to swap for laspistol/melee, access to carapace (Without going full Scion) or the reverse, a horde of really poorly trained men with a horde mechanic of sorts.

I really only need at most 2 pages per Regiment (Cadian, Catachan, Tallarn, etc).
One page to give some blanket special rules, the second for some regiment specific strats/enhancements.

Well, Marines don't need different Codizes for each chapter. And as a Death Guard player I'll say you don't need Codizes for each Cult Legion, it can all fit nicely within one book with clever use of Chaos mark boni.

For Imperial Guard, just look at the HH pdf for imperial militia. All kinds of awesomeness within a couple lines. Ogre Kingdoms in Space ftw!

The Marines have a holy text in universe saying they should all be organised in the same way. The Guard has nothing like that really and is much more diverse.

As much as I love my guard I'm not really for one codex for each regiment. My prefered variant would be either one really big codex with like... 2 pages each for 6-8 different regiments and a "build your own regiment" mechanic with a bunch of options OR: one slim generic guard codex with all the vehicle and generic rules + another book that is just regiments... 5-10 pages each, with fluff, one or two regiment specific units, rules for a regiment specific hero, paint schemes, a couple of regiment specific rules and stratagems. That would be cool

 Pyroalchi wrote:
As much as I love my guard I'm not really for one codex for each regiment. My prefered variant would be either one really big codex with like... 2 pages each for 6-8 different regiments and a "build your own regiment" mechanic with a bunch of options OR: one slim generic guard codex with all the vehicle and generic rules + another book that is just regiments... 5-10 pages each, with fluff, one or two regiment specific units, rules for a regiment specific hero, paint schemes, a couple of regiment specific rules and stratagems. That would be cool

That's the direction I'd go, honestly. Different official regiments feel limiting, the way turning 'infantry squad' into 'Catachan/Cadian/Krieg squad' feels. If I got to design it, I'd make Guard detachments two separate picks from half a dozen or so options; one for your home world type, for your detachment rule and half your enhancements and stratagems, and then one for your regiment type, which would give the rest of your enhancements and stratagems, as well as tell you what your Battleline and Dedicated Transport picks are.

And also change the infantry squads to light/medium/heavy, to make it make a little more sense. I got halfway through sketching it out as an exercise before giving up

I don't think there's any argument for letting Marines have a bunch of books while excluding Guard - or, like, Orks or Nids or a bunch of others, for that matter - beyond 'I like the game to have a disproportionate focus on Marines and Marine-related matters'. If the Guard - or renegade Guard, or whoever - can be handled in a big book with lots of options, and I agree they can and should, then the far more specific, less varied faction can as well. If there's stuff Blood Angels or Black Templars or whoever wouldn't have, just say you can't take it if you're bringing them.