Hey look, I just referred to myself in 3rd person. H.B.M.C. never does that!

Ok, yes, my review. I wrote this during my free time over the course of 3 days. I do actually have good things to say about the Codex, so I encourage everyone to read it through from start to finish no matter if they agree or disagree with me. As usual, I have a lot to say, and I refuse to sugar-coat anything. That's another way of saying that I'm very blunt. Anyway, here it is:

An Exercise in Futility
–OR–
H.B.M.C.’s review of Codex: Chaos Space Marines

Hello all,

That time is nearly upon us. Yes, it’s nearly time for a vibrant and colourful Codex to be reduced into a dull and lifeless husk of its former self thanks to the kind yet increasingly unimaginative souls at Games Workshop. That’s right children, the new Chaos Codex is only days away, and the clamouring hoards want to know one thing:

How badly did they fail?

I’ll answer that question over the course of this review, but I want everyone to know that I’m not just going to look at the rules itself, but everything from fluff, presentation, colour section, everything. Just like my Codex Guard review from a while back, this is a cover-to-cover review that do I as a service to the cynical and jaded members of DakkaDakka, and even those of us too blind to see just how much GW has screwed up (again!). I won’t be going through page by page, and will gloss over some sections, but I will highlight specific sections if they are deemed worthy (or too funny not to point out!). And yes, my often-rampant cynicism will colour this review, but I am positive about some points - not many, but some. And I can maintain an air of seriousness in some parts. I get pretty angry in the Daemon section - you have been warned.

So, as this is a cover-to-cover review what better place to start than with the cover!

The Cover:

I really like the cover of this edition of the Chaos Codex. The main object of the picture may not be Abaddon, but the picture is very similar to the old 2^nd Ed Codex. For those of you that remember, the old 2^nd Ed Codex saw fit to not only give us rules for different types of Daemons, but also gave us a list for Daemon World armies, meaning we didn’t have to wait 1-6 years to get rules to differentiate Bloodthirsters and Lords of Change.

Where was I? Oh yes. The cover.

I do like the cover. It’s a nice re-imagining for those of us who were around in the days of 2^nd Ed. Colourful, vibrant, full of life – it’s everything this Codex isn’t, and as such makes a lot of false promises. More importantly, the cover also states that this is a Chaos Space Marine Codex. This is, of course, a lie, as there are very few things I’d call ‘Chaotic’ in this book.

So, onto the book itself.


Page 1:

I mention page one separately as it contains a large picture of a Chaos Star and, yep, a few skulls as well, but also contains the author’s names in very small text right at the bottom of the page.

The authors of this train wreck are Gavin ‘They Still Let Me Write Rules!’ Thorpe, and Alessio ‘I Should Know Better Than This’ Cavatore. Interestingly my spellchecker knew the words ‘Alessio’ and ‘Cavatore’, but suggested ‘Failure’ as an alternative to ‘Gavin’ and ‘Thorpe’. Now I mention the authors because when I get to this end of the review I have a few things to mention on the full credits page, and because I found it funny that the author’s names were so small at the bottom, almost as if they were hoping someone wouldn’t see it was them who wrote it.

Page one has a scary, spooky boarder reminiscent of the old Realms of Chaos books. I assume this is their attempt to gain some credibility. Truthfully, they’ll need every shred they can get

Page 3:

Page three is your typical introduction page. I mentioned it only because a couple of the headings made me laugh:

1. Why Collect a Space Marine Army?
The immediate answer to that is ‘I want my loyalists to have more spikes’, as there’s nothing very Chaotic about this Codex.

2. How does this Codex Work?
I’m tempted to say it doesn’t. Heh.

Also has the obligatory link to GW online. Hopefully they’ll have some of their wonderful example lists up soon that usually contain things such as randomly selected units and Havoc Squads with 4 different heavy weapons…


Page 4:

Oooh! They are trying to do Realms of Chaos. Again with the spooky boarder surrounding some fluff about letting a galaxy be slightly singed or something similar.

This fluff piece is interesting as it really hits home what GW are attempting to do with this Codex. The Horus Heresy is not mentioned, and the formally abundant Traitor Legions have become the ‘Traitor Legions and Renegade Chapters’. They are obviously trying to abandon the Legions as what Chaos is represented by. There will be more on this later.


Page 5:

This is some new art that represents much of the art in the book. The last Codex had a very distinct theme – Chaos killing poor, hapless Cadians. This time it’s different – it’s Chaos killing Loyalists. And there are piles of dead Marines lying around. The Defiler art is nice, and I think the thing in the background it’s a Lord of Battle, for anyone who remembers that from Epic. I like it.


Page 6:

Much like page 4, this introductory fluff piece goes into detail that this is a Codex about fallen Loyalists, not the Traitor Legions. To me, at least, it is interesting, as despite my ire with this book over the dropping of the Traitor Legion rules, the concept of Renegade Chapters and fallen Loyalists has never really been explored. We got a little bit of the Red Corsairs back in 2^nd Ed, but haven’t had much more of that since then. As I said, I find it interesting and it’s just a pity that GW couldn’t find a balance between those of us who want to play the Traitor Legions, and those of us who want to play Naughty Ultramarines.


Pages 7-11:

This section details Chaos quite nicely. It talks about the creation of the Chaos Gods, the essence of Chaos, and the Champions of the Chaos Gods. We may make fun of Gav for a lot of things, and lot of them are justified as well, but one thing I’ve always liked is his writing style. I loved his Last Chancers books and, although not high literature or art, they were fun. The fluff in this Codex is also fun.

But I have to complain about something, otherwise I wouldn’t be who I am, so let’s pick on… Khorne.

‘Khorne embodies mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within reach, slaying both friend or foe alike.’ – Codex: When Loyalists Go Bad, Page 9.

I really do long for the days when Khorne not only embodied mindless slaughter, but martial pride and prowess – skill and ability within combat in all its forms. I want Khorne to go back to being the bloodthirsty God of War, where power could be gained both through hacking off someone’s head with an axe and through blasting them with a massive gun.

Some of us must remember the old Khornate Daemon Engines of Space Marine, specifically the Great Cannon of Khorne. Sure, it was possibly one of the more silly models GW has made, ranking up their with their first attempts at making Thunderhawk Gunships models, but it was a representation of Khorne as a master of combat, no matter the type of combat.

All fiction is based around conflict, and internal conflicts are often the most interesting types. The dichotomy of Khorne – one part bloodthirsty killer, the other part proud and honourable warrior – has, to me at least, made him the most interesting God, even more interesting than the relationship between Nurgle and Tzeentch. To see the Blood God distilled over time to a maniac who just wants to kill everything is quite saddening. Anyway, moving on.

This section goes into some more depth with Chaos Warbands, and, like before, makes only the most fleeting of references to the Horus Heresy. They also talk about Spawndom and Daemonhood, including a nice picture of a Daemon Prince toppling a Marine Dreadnought.


Pages 12-15:

Wow! A heading in big bold type – THE HORUS HERESY. We all knew they had to acknowledge it eventually. Let’s see how they do, hey?

It talks about the corruption of the Primarchs, Horus especially, and talks about the virus bombing of Istvaan III and the fighting that broke out between Loyalist and Traitor elements of the Death Guard, World Eaters and Emperor’s Children. They also talk about Captain Garro of the Death Guard and how he captured the Eisenstein and flew back to Terra to warn the Emperor.

This section is truly excellent and Gav goes into quite a bit of depth, from the arrival of Traitor AdMech units, the Drop Site Massacres including a little detail of the progression of the battle, starting with the assault on the Iron Hands main force before the Chaos forces moved onto wiping out most of the Raven Guard and Salamanders.

I must congratulate them on writing up new fluff rather than just copying and pasting old fluff from previous editions of the Chaos Codex. Yes, it’s all from the new Horus Heresy books, but it’s nice to see non-regurgitated text for a change.

The section also makes mention of ‘The Scouring’, the period immediately following the Horus Heresy where the Space Marine Legions and the Imperial Army reclaimed much of the galaxy. I heard a while back that this is to be covered in the novels as well, so that sounds like an interesting part of Imperial History not yet covered by the fluff in any great detail.


Pages 17-24:

This section goes back to Renegade Marines, and while it is interesting it’s the typical ‘vague’ GW fluff that gives you hints at events, but doesn’t go into detail as they’re designed to be plot-hooks for your own Renegade Army. Nevertheless, it is an interesting read, and presents a side of Chaos we don’t really know. The Traitor Legions aren’t completely forgotten, and their time in the Eye of Terror and their hatred for the Imperium is mentioned, so that’s good.

We do go into depth with one story about a Sergeant from the Sons of Guilleman’s 4^th Company. It has some nice detail, and, like with the other fluff, it’s fun, so quite a welcome addition.

 

We also get a bit about the fanaticism of the Word Bearers and the insidious nature of the Alpha Legion. There’s a pretty cool story about the Alpha Legion infiltrating the Emperor’s Swords Chapter over a period of 300 years, resulting in the theft of their geneseed and the complete destruction of all Loyalist elements of the Chapter.

 

This section contains a lot of colour photos of different Renegade Chaos Chapters. Sadly, all of the Traitor Legions are pigeon holed into this section, proving once again that all your wonderful Alpha Legion and Word Bearer armies are nothing more than a fancy paint job in this Codex.

But let’s have a little fun and pick apart some of these silly Chapter names:

Angels of Ecstasy – Almost as derivative as ‘Blood Ravens’, don’t’cha think?
Bleak Brotherhood – Do they cry themselves to sleep?
Brotherhood of Darkness – I take back my comments about the Angels, this Chapter is derivative.
Claws of Lorek – Cool colour scheme. It’s like tiger-stripe on black.
Company of Misery – These all sound like bad Emo band names. If the Legion of Bonham is in here, I’ll cry…
Death Shadows – Snore.
Disciples of Destruction – Gav has discovered alliteration!
Dragon Warriors – Aren’t they a Cursed Founding Chapter?
Iron Warriors – They look pink for some odd reason. I guess NMM’s don’t work on paper…
Knights of Blood – God…
Lords of Decay – Excellent. Why not call them the Guards of Death. Let’s have the Eaters of Worlds and the Warriors of Iron. How ‘bout the Bearers of Word?
Punishers – Who look like they’re dressed up for Halloween.
The Sanctifiers – Cool name for Traitors, I have to say.
The Reborn – Cooler name for Traitors.
Skull Takers – They look about as threatening as 1KSons in the last Codex.
Steel Brethren – Legion of Black! Legion Alpha! Children of the Emperor!
Unknown – HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!
Warriors of Mayhem – Fighters of Craziness. Troops of Insanity! Parabola of Mystery!

There’s a page about the Black Legion that is nice, including their Legion Banner that was held aloft over Castle Wernerstien. When I first read that I thought it said Castle Wolfenstein, then I had an image of Space Marines fighting Nazi’s. That would rule. The variant colour scheme for the Black Legion is also very cool.

There’s a bit about the Planet of Steel, currently occupied by the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors get a bit of fluff for themselves. No mention of Lord Petros Heinous and his legions of Heavy Support choices though.

And that brings the fluff to an end. Now we’re into the rules. It’s all downhill from here folks.


Pages 25-28:

We know the rules for Marks. They’re a gross simplification. No more Blood Rage, True Grit, or anything resembling interesting rules. They’re just +1A, +1I, +1T and some funky Invul rules for 1KSons.

We get stuff on Icons without any rules. Mentions of Havocs for some reason. There’s a whole paragraph on how Havocs love to use Rhinos. Umm… what? Stuff on Chosen and Chaos Bikers. Boring, boring, boring. Chosen can Infiltrate. Whatever. Terminators can always Deep Strike for some reason.


Page 29:

Possessed get their own special mention because of just how much they suck. How can you use a unit where you don’t know what they’re capable of until just before the battle? How can you plan to use them when you don’t know if they’ll be getting Scouts, Power Weapons or Fleet of Foot? Moreover, this is done after deployment, so you don’t even know how you’ll use them until after you’ve been forced to place them on the table. What if you placed them back and rolled Scouts? What if you placed them forward and scored Furious Charge?

This unit is hopeless. I love the new models, but they are unusable.


Pages 30-44:

Here we get the ‘Codex without the points’ part of the Codex, the bit where they give you all the rules, but none of the prices and none of the (extremely limited) options. And just like the Dark Angel ‘Codex’ and Codex: Falcon Grav Tanks, it’s as maddeningly useless as before. Chaos players had a complicated ‘Dex with the last edition, but now they have to flip back and forth to find out what a Bloodthirster… wait… sorry… Bloodthirsters don’t exist now. Let me start again. Now they have to flop back and forth to find out what rules their units have and then back to see what options they can get.

On the bright side, Chaos players that own Codex: Dark Angels can just keep the front section of that book open and the army list from the Chaos Codex. As Chaos and Loyalist are so utterly identical now, it should cut down time on flipping back and forth through the book.

Chaos Lords are WS6. Ok, doesn’t matter all that much. They have an inherent 5+(I) save. Sorcerers have Force Weapons, which I hate. I liked it when Force Weapons were something loyalists had. Wait! How could I be so stupid? This Codex is just When Loyalists Go Bad. By rights Razorbacks and Land Speeders should have been included in this book.

Daemon Prince. Wow. How the might have fallen hey? Yeah, ok, inherent WS7 and S6 is nice, as are the 4^th Wound & Attack. But talk about dull!

The Spawn is terrible. No armour save makes it virtually impossible to use. It doesn’t even have a 5+(I) daemonic aura save.

Raptors are just Assault Marines. They’re identical. There’s no ‘Chaos’ here.

Now Oblits are Techmarines. Ok, whatever. I really do not know why people think these are awesome units. They’re more expensive than they used to be, their stats have gotten worse and they’ve lost their Heavy Bolters and Autocannons.

Berzerkers, IMO, are actually under-costed. Sure, they lost their Chainaxes, but they removed that idiotic Blood Rage that made them so difficult to control, gave ‘em Frags and F-Charge as standard, and bumped their WS to 5, so they’re effectively hitting everyone on 3+. All for less points than your typical Berzerker from the last Codex (which came in at 24 w/Frags, F-Charge and Chainaxes).

With 1KSons it’s your typical GW pendulum swing, and they’ve swung it hard. What was once a 24-point Bolter Marine with 2 wounds has become an AP3 spitting Marine that shrugs off fully half the firepower you direct at them. They’re still slow.

Plague Marines may be tough, but damn are they expensive. These guys are good on paper, and probably good in game, but I think the ‘more men’ factor will eventually weigh against the Plague Marines, as you might be able to save points and buy more of the cheaper Noise Marines and leave dealing with enemy assault troops to Princes with the Lash.

The Sonic Blaster is still stupidly overpriced. 5 points each for a few more bolter shots isn’t all that special. Noise Marines are lucky as they’re probably one of the few units that can do a lot of things. It’s the I5 that does it, as their HTH abilities are increased significantly by their ability to swing before mostly everyone. They are also the only unit in the Codex that can be small with a heavy weapon. And speaking of the Heavy Weapons, Blastmasters are not worth 40 points. Not by anyone’s standards. True, even with the 40 point Blastmaster, it’s cheaper to buy 5 Noise Marines and a Blastmaster than it is 10 of useless CSMs and a single heavy weapon, but c’mon – 40 points for a blast Krak Launcher? How do GW honestly come up with these prices.

The Dreadnought rules ensure that no one will ever use one. The Fire Frenzy ensures that no one will ever give them decent guns if they do take one. Is it clear that these guys aren’t getting a new model? I’m sure if there was a new plastic Chaos Dread kit, it’d have totally roXx0r rules… but it’s the same metal one from 2^nd Ed with the now-illegal Thunder Hammer and Power Scourge, so no, no good rules for it, only rules to ensure that they won’t sell any more. Pity the Forge World dreads are so pretty…

Oh, and I’d like to mention that the Chaos Dreadnought has access to one – count ‘em – one vehicle upgrade. Extra Armour. For 15 points. As I said above, no one’s gonna be bringing Dreads after this book hits.

GW wants to emphasise the HTH nature of the Defiler. To do this they gave the Defiler the same weapon skill as a Guardsman. They also made it BS3, so it’s as good a shot as a Guardsman. Thankfully you can replace its guns with close combat weapons for free, so it’ll have 5 attacks. That’s 6 on the charge, meaning it’ll hit 3 Marines, and kill two. All that for 150 points! What a bargain. And by bargain I mean ‘complete waste of time’.

Next up is the Dark Angel Rhino, now with added spikes to make it ‘Chaos’. 15 point Extra Armour never looked so good!

Next up is the Dark Angel Predator, also with lots of spikes. And 60 point Lascannons that it can’t fire on the move. GW, you sure know how to make a crap rule set…

The Land Raider is… well... it’s a Land Raider.

Chaos Vindicator. I think armies with 3 of these things, Possessed, will make for a scary force. This is also supposed to appease us Iron Warrior players for taking away all our rules. Wonder what the Word Bearer players get? Fancy new Daemon rules? Well, as it happens…


Page 61-63:

I’m skipping ahead a little here, because it’s time to discuss the single greatest tragedy with the Chaos Codex. No folks, I’m not talking about the author, I’m talking about the section entitled ‘Summoned Daemons’.

We’ll start with a quote from the fluff in this section:

 

‘Some Daemons are weak, flittering things created from base emotions, but with little personality or direction’ – Codex: When Good Marines Go Bad, Page 61.

I must say, ne’er a truer word has been spoken in a GW rulebook.

The Daemons in this Codex, both ‘Greater’ and ‘Lesser’ (although I’d argue that a more accurate description for both types would be "Less Than" ) truly have ‘little personality’. And if we’re talking about the ‘base emotions’ that went into the design of these Daemons, I’d have to say that ‘boredom’ and ‘laziness’ would be my chief candidates.

Sitting in front of me now I have a very old Games Workshop rulebook. Most of you here will probably have only heard of it, and chances are the closest you’ll ever get to seeing it is in a small thumbnail picture in an eBay auction. I am of course talking about one of the Realms of Chaos books – ancient tomes from which so much current fluff has been pilfered over the years. In this case it is the Slaves to Darkness book, the one detailing Khornate and Slaaneshi forces. This book goes into great detail about different types of Daemons, the nature of Khorne and Slaanesh, and includes rules that have ludicrous amounts of detail – there is a D1000 table in here, I kid you not. This book contains the first ever rules for the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, a new weapon called the Psycannon, and the Grey Knights army list. It also contains army lists for Black Legion, World Eaters and Emperor’s Children.

The book is insane. Bloodthirsters used to carry big axes that contained within them another Bloodthirster, who could pop out during the game. They cost 900 or so points of course, so it made sense. There were Fiends, and Daemonettes, Flesh Hounds and Juggernauts. There were rules for Daemon Princes that make the last Codex look like a ‘colour by numbers’ children’s book. As I said, this book is insane.

Now let’s jump back to the new Chaos Codex. What have we got?

 

Greater Daemons.

Lesser Daemons.

That’s it.

Admittedly, Greater Daemons do have a nice statline, and at 100 points they are an absolute steal, but these rules are supposed to represent all Greater Daemons, from Bloodthirsters to Keepers of Secrets, from Great Unclean Ones to Lords of Change.

It’s just wrong.

Does it not sicken anyone here that Games Workshop has seen fit to publish three different sets of Terminator Teleportation rules for three different Codex Astartes-following Space Marine Chapters (Ultras, Imp Fists, Dark Angels), yet there isn’t enough difference in their minds between a Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change to warrant even a different statline!!!

And then there’s the Lesser Daemons. This section represents:

Nurglings
Plague Bearers
Bloodletters
Flesh Hounds
Horrors

Flamers
Screamers
Daemonettes
Daemonette Cavalry
Furies

And how are these wonderful, characterful, colourful and completely and utterly unique units represented in this new Chaos Codex?

A 13 point model with WS4 S4 T4 A2, Fearlessness and a 5+ Invulnerable save. They’re Fearless Space Marine Scouts with +1A, a lesser saving throw, and no weapons. I can imagine every Word Bearer player going mad right now, Emperor’s Children players wondering what they’re going to do with all their Daemonettes, and players with bases of Nurglings thinking what to do with their pint-sized Daemons that now have the same rules as their friend’s Screamers and Horrors.

This section, more than the heavily and needlessly simplified rules, more than the complete lack of variety or flavour in the rest of the list, and more than the nonsensical pricing structure of limited upgrades – more than anything really – epitomises exactly what is wrong with not only the Codex, but the mindset of the bumbling buffoons writing it.

After reading pages 61-63 of the new Chaos Codex, I am left with only two words to say to Mr. Thorpe, Mr. Cavatore and Mr. Johnson:


F#%k. You.


This section is an insult to Chaos players. It is a directed attack levelled at the people who have been playing Chaos for years and those of us with hordes of different types of Daemons – expensive, metal Daemon models, I might add. I don’t care that in 6 months to 3 years we’ll be getting a ‘Daemons Codex’. That doesn’t change anything. This Codex was bad to begin with, but it collapses under the weigh of its own blandness and stupidity with this section.

Ok, enough about these so-called Daemons, let’s get back to where we were.


Pages 46-59:

This is the special character section. I love this section, if only because we get a decent amount of fluff about our beloved cliché characters, and a nice expansion on Mr. Huron Blackheart, the star of this show.

Starting with Abaddon, and straight away we can see that someone at GW said to themselves ‘Y’know, for being the master of all Chaos, Abby kinds sucks’. And then they went and gave him a huge 275 point price tag, and rules to match! Abby is just nuts! I am so stealing every word of his rules for my Abaddon entry in our group’s 40K Revisited Project. Reading these rules made me actually think ‘Yes, I’d use Abby with these rules’ for the first time ever. Not even his 2^nd Ed Rules were this good.

So what are they?

Well, let’s start with the three things that stand out the most: WS7, S8, I6. Yes, you read that correctly. He’s swinging an S8 power weapon at I6, using a WS of 7. He has 4 base attacks, +D6 from the sword. He can re-roll failed To Wound rolls with it. That’s re-rolling S8!! He’s got a 4+ Invulnerable Save. He’s immune to Instant Death. He’s Fearless, and he has a Teleport Homer.

He really is the Master of Chaos, and damn is it about time!

I dislike these emphasis on Special Characters within the more recent Codices. I really dislike it. But at least they’re giving us some characters that are worth a damn. Abby is great! Apparently in Apocalypse you can field multiple special characters. I own two Abaddons… so good!


Oddly, in comparison, our good friend Kharn is a little subdued. He’s still dangerous, yes, but he lost his immunity to Instant Death. He lost his 2+ armour save. He gained a pip of strength, and with F-Charge his WS7 S6 I6 with lots of attacks but he’s just… dull. Sure he went down in points, but I really don’t know why you’d bring him.


For all the 1KSons players out there, I have some good news for you:

Ahriman found a power weapon!!!

It seems that after all these millennia of swinging his Black Staff ineffectually at anyone with an armour save greater than a Guardsman, Ahriman realised that there was an ‘On’ switch at the base of the staff. Now he has a Force Weapon! He’s forgotten how to cast powers automatically, and for that alone I think his price increase to 250 probably isn’t worth it, but at least he can finally kill stuff! Sadly his fluff mentions that he is searching for a way to get into the Black Library and makes no mention of the fact that he found a way into the Eldar Webway during the 13^th Black Crusade.


I was surprised to see that the Enhanced Marine rules of Fabius’ were still in the Codex. I thought that in a world of optionless squads and generic Daemons, something like the ability to enhance Marines would have been very quickly cut in favour of some stock-standard, optionless ‘enhanced retinue’ that only Fabius could get. But no, the rules remain. They’re still no good, and I doubt anyone has ever used them, but they’re there! Sadly, all is not well with the Chaos Primogenitor. His cost has gone up dramatically, he still hasn’t found the ‘On’ switch like Ahriman, so his weapon won’t be ignoring Gaunt or Ork armour anytime soon, his pistol still sucks, he lost his Invul save for a Feel No Pain save, and generally just became more of a confused fighter. I wouldn’t bother. But at least his Enhanced Marine rules are still there. They’re probably one of the more Chaotic things in this Codex.


Lucius the Eternally Useless remains so. He’s lost virtually all of his special rules. His WS and Initiative have increased, but he lost a pip of strength, his Lash of Torment is just a Tyranid Lash Whip. His cost went down, but not enough to justify ever taking him. Thank God he isn’t required to make Noise Marines into Troops…


Typhus went down a few points, and gained a Force Weapon. He’s actually pretty good. Not very exciting, but a decent character.


Finally the star of our show – Huron Blackheart, Master of the Red Corsairs, formerly Lufgt Huron, Chapter Master of the Astral Claws. Sadly, his actual rules are really uninspired. He’s a base-line Commander with a normal commander statline; he has a power fist, a power weapon and one psychic power. The only cool thing about him is that he has a heavy flamer. Really disappointing.

Thankfully we get quite a lot of fluff on the Badab War and other Huron related items. We get a two-page look at a raid Huron made on a Space Wolf Strike Cruiser. What the Space Wolves were doing all the way over in the lower Eastern Fringe, I do not know, but, again, the fluff is fun, so I like it.

So that’s the end of the rules section. Now we get the colour section.


Pages 64-80:

The colour section is very… colourful. Can’t really say much more than that except that I found it amusing the single picture of Iron Warriors has what would be 3 Heavy Support choices in the old Codex. Y’know, rather than 4. Heh.

Alpha Legion have changed colour schemes once again. They look really odd. A made-up ‘Renegade Chapter’ called The Cleaved gets more coverage than any of the Traitor Legions. There’s a conversion of Lysander, but with Lightning Claws. He’s part of a group called ‘The Purge’, and they get more coverage than any of the Traitor Legions.

The Red Corsair models look terrible. I’m sorry, but they’re half Red Space Marines, half Death Company. They don’t look good. The red is too bright.

Their Vindicator picture includes some riveting ‘detail’ shots including the hatch and the… air vent... umm… yeah. Really exciting stuff here. AIR VENTS!! WOOO!!!!!

There’s a 1500 point sample list that contains your usual mixed assortment of random weapon choices and mismatched units. It’s the typical, par-for-the-course crap that we’re used to from GW.

After that comes a jarring picture with lots of the stuff the Studio has just painted, giving us a Chaos Legion that must be from the Renegade ‘Colours of Benetton’ Chapter.

Yeah, and that’s the colour section.


Pages 81-88:

This is the section that Jervis decreed must be in all Codices so his son knows what’s what. Yes, it’s the wargear section, filled with lots of pretty pictures of Bolters with Spikes and huge canons with blade attachments. Thanks to this section we can all feel safe in the knowledge that Jervis’ 5 year old knows the difference between a Chainsword and a Reaper Autocannon.

Only thing of note is that Chaos Terminator Armour doesn’t give you +1 Attack, yet Space Marine Terminator Armour does. Go Loyalists! Oh, and anyone with wings can now Deep Strike. Page 87 does have a pretty nifty picture of a Chaos Dread.

Psychic Powers come at the end. Doom Bolt’s AP3 now. Warp Time is a lesser Veil of Time. Gift of Chaos is the same. Wind of Chaos is the same. Lash of Submission is the single most unfair thing in this Codex. Nurgle’s Rot sucks. Bolt of Change is AP1.


Pages 89-102:

And now we finally reach the army list. I’ve gone over most of what I feel about the units within the rules section that you can all flip back and forth between when you finally buy this train wreck of a Codex, but there are a few things here I’d like to point out, mostly to do with points and comparisons.

Daemon Princes, as everyone knows by now, have reverted back to the Daemon Princes from the really boring 1^st Edition Chaos Codex from the start of 3^rd Ed. They have only 3 options, Wings or no Wings, Mark or No Mark, and Lash of Submission or no Lash of Submission. That’s pretty much what it boils down to. Take two of ‘em.

All the Daemonic Gifts are gone in this Codex. Completely gone. Vanished. No show. The Chaos Lord still has loads of options, but they’re all weapon options, and they’re all extremely dull. Do I take one Lightning Claw or two? Terminator Armour or a Bike? Snore-fest or Nap-Time? The Marks are all ludicrously priced. 20 for +1T that doesn’t even help against Instant Death? 15 points to increase the Invul Save. Only Slaanesh is worthwhile, at 5 points for +1Init.

Sorcerer is up next. He’s got a Force Weapon, and has to take at least one power. Unlike Space Marine Librarians, Chaos Sorcerers have been working in the Eye of Terror for the Chaos Gods and therefore cannot get two ultra-cheap powers. Instead they have to pay 30 points for things like Wind of Chaos and Gift of Chaos. To get two powers, the Sorcerer needs to spend 30 points on the Mark of Tzeentch. Ouch…

This page also has the rules for Daemon Weapons. The normal one is bad. The Undivided one gives you +1A, the Khorne one makes it easier to kill yourself, the Nurgle One is useless except against Wraithlords and ‘Zilla lists, the Tzeentch one gives you a different way of killing yourself and the Slaanesh one is a super-force weapon without the need for a test. Overall the Slaaneshi one is the best. It causes more damage without increasing the chances of killing yourself. Still, for 40 points, what a waste… Daemon Princes cannot get Daemon Weapons. Go figure…

Chosen are still 18 points and still only have 1 attack each. They can get a single Champion, who appears to have no options of his own, so when it says up to 4 in the squad may take certain items, I’d have to assume he is one of those four. So, effectively, you pay +10 points for an extra attack. Otherwise everything else is already available to the squad, including 15 point power weapons and 25 point power fists. Rip off…

Chaos Termies are cheap at 30 points. Anyone can be a Champ. They adhere strictly to the Codex Astartes though, so only one heavy weapon for every full 5 Termies. It’s good to be Chaotic!

Possessed are 26 points each, and as mentioned earlier in this review, you cannot plan at all what they will do during the game, making them impossible to use. Thankfully they can get a Rhino…

The Dread, yeah, already mentioned. Avoid! Avoid! Avoid! Wait for a shiny plastic kit in 6-10 years, and then we’ll get good rules again.

Now we come to Chaos Marine Squads. I truly do not know why you’d take Chaos Marines. It’s 170 points for a squad with a Lascannon. The Icons are priced so that you won’t take them (50 for the Nurgle one for God’s sake, and you don’t even get FNP!). The Cult Troops are just so much better. Avoid these jokers. It seems that Chaos Marines have no place in a Chaos Marine army. This is a pity as I adore the CSM kit. It’s one the best GW has ever made, and now has new bits. Still, there’s no reason to have them. Take Cult Troops.

Also, when I see ‘Mark of Chaos Glory’, I see ‘Mark of Morning Glory’. I can’t take them seriously any more.

For 50 points you can have a Rhino with Extra Armour or for 55 points you can have a possessed Rhino. Unfortunately you can no longer ‘fake’ a Razorback with two combi-weapons and a Havoc Launcher. Now you get your Combi-Bolter and one other option. What does GW have against options?

Plague Marines are 23 points each, and whilst good I just see Noise Marines as the superior unit due to cost. The Champ’s Power Fist is also 25… such a rip off.

140 points gets you 5 Fearless Noise Marines with a Blastmaster. 40 points is still overpriced.

Berzerkers are cheap as chips at 21 points each. They’re nice.

1KSons I’ve been over. Sorc has a Force Weapon. All you 1KSons players out there better start removing those power fists from your Champions.

Chaos Bikers have gone down by one point, and lost an attack. I guess the lack of new model means they got ignored. They really suck now with base A1 rather than A2.

Chaos Raptors, as I’ve said, are now just Loyalist Assault Marines but with access to Plasma Guns and Meltaguns. They can have Icons, but they’re so overpriced you wouldn’t bother.

Spawn are 40 points each. With no armour save you wouldn’t bother.

Havocs, unlike their Loyalist counter-parts, cannot get Tank Hunters. They pay stupid prices for their guns as usual and… and this made me laugh… can buy an Icon of Khorne. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That’s hilarious.

I’ve been over Oblits.

Chaos Predator with 3 Lascannons costs 20 points more than the old version. It’s not a better shot, it’s no more mobile, and it’s no more durable. Nothing’s changed, much like GW’s writing abilities. Oh, you can get Possession and lose a point of Ballistic Skill if you like. Good one Gav.

Vindi is 125. Possession makes it 145. Bring on the trios of Vindis!

Defiler is 150. No more indirect. Bad statline, more CCWs. What a waste. Seriously, who honestly thought that giving the Defiler a few extra attacks and Fleet yet keeping the Defiler at WS3 would make it into a HTH monster? It misses MEQs half the damn time. How is that useful?

Land Raider is still 40 points too expensive. Possessing it might be a good idea, as you don’t lose to much – all the guns are twin-linked anyway.

And the less said about Generic Daemons the better.

Page 104:

This is the summary page. I only mention this as it contains the full credits at the bottom. It has a few interesting things.

 

Written By: Gav Thorpe
Additional Text: Alessio Cavatore

What’s that? Alessio did ‘additional text’. What does that mean? I guess he showed up at the office each day, and between his half an hour coffee break and 3 hour lunch he looked over Gav’s shoulder, shook his head and thought to himself ‘Maybe I’ll fix it before we go to print… or maybe I’ll just take a 4 hour lunch today’.

The other interesting thing about the credits is not something that’s written there, but something that’s not written there. What’s missing?


Jervis’ name.


He’s not even mentioned in the special thanks section. Actually, I assume the special thanks section is Gav saying thankyou to all those people for not firing him years ago after he wrote the 3^rd Ed Blood Angel Codex.

So yeah, Jervis is actually not mentioned at all in this book. Funny how things happen.


Conclusion:

I titled this review ‘An Exercise in Futility’ not so much because of the content of this particular Codex, but more as a commentary on GW at the moment. What we all have to realise is that despite the good rules in this Codex, and despite the ‘fun’ fluff that I enjoyed quite a bit, nothing we do or say will make GW change their current trend.

Options will vanish. Variety will go out the window. Entire armies will be invalidated or heavily nerfed, all despite the long-forgotten promises before 4^th Ed that ‘nothing would change’. And we can’t do squat about it… sorry… I mentioned Squats. Pun… let’s say that was intended.

Think of this part of 40K’s development history as the Ecclesiarchy’s Reign of Blood. Maybe Rick Priestly will come back to play out the role of Sebastian Thor to Jervis’ Lord Vandire. We can only hope!!!

So your three options are keep playing, stop playing, or do what our group has done and re-write 40K to make it into a game we have fun playing.

As for this Codex, well, as I said, it’s a train wreck. It’s so full of… blandness… that it makes me sad. The Legions are gone – in fact, they’re hardly mentioned. The Horus Heresy plays a supporting role in this Chaos Codex. The Daemons are an insult. The points costs don’t make sense. The list itself is dull.

We spent a lot of time making fun of Pete Haines, but the truth is I miss him. He might have demonstrated the subtlety of an Imperator Titan when he made his personal Iron Warrior army awesome and 1KSons suck, but he made a Codex that we all enjoyed. Yes, it could be abused. Yes, it was near impossible to balance. But damn it, it was fun. Having a page of tiny, 3-columned text for the Wargear section was fun. Having all those options and all those Legions was fun.

This new Codex isn’t fun, and truly fun is what 40K is about. If a Codex is no fun, it is a failure.

Lord Vandire – you have failed.

BYE

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I swear I remember the crew at GW saying at the time of the 3rd ed Chaos Codex Mk. 2, that they were totally going away from random effects on Chaos Troops....

Now If I, who have the memory of a gnat can remember that, what the hell happened to the Dev. Team? It failed in 3rd ed with the first Chaos Codex and now they think it's a good idea?

I really suspect that they'll be doing a full rework of Chaos like they did in 3rd ed.

Great review HBMC. Much thanks.

So here's a theory. Let's say this is not just the vanilla-ing of Chaos (and Dark Angels, Blood Angels etc.). What if Jervis heard the outcry of "cheesy MEqs" and this is the beginning of his attempt to tone down anything in power armor? I suppose we won't have that question answered until Orks come out and we get a feel for them, but since all of the Xenos armies so far are competitive, one wonders if this is not just the elimination of choices, but an actual attempt to de-emphasize Space Marines (without saying that, as it would just peeve off everyone)?

Exalt HBMC, great review.  These are all the things I've been arguing with my gaming group for the last couple months.  Some of them actually like the reduction in "complexity."  I can't remember where I read it, but someone put it best when they said that 40k was going from a DIY army to an army the studio wants you to play.  That is not what 40k was, nor what it should be!

BOOOOOO!!!

After reading the review all I can say is Waah waah waah waah. Oh ya get over it the chaos codexs is finally not the uber codex of doom I can't wait for the space marines to recieve the same then we can have a tournament system that doesn't need a comp section to reign in the people who always try to abuse the rules. Hell it might even be fun to go to the G.T again instead of the complete waste of $125.

Okay, imagine if they took all the Eldar Aspects and Guardian based troops and grouped them into "greater eldar" and "lesser eldar."  You'd have fits (if you played Eldar).  The demon thing is just disgusting.  Unacceptable.


And I never even really played Chaos.

Posted By vhwolf on 08/13/2007 6:35 PM
After reading the review all I can say is Waah waah waah waah. Oh ya get over it the chaos codexs is finally not the uber codex of doom

There's a problem with the above statement, becuase you said you read the review. This is clearly a lie as I did not complain at all about Chaos 'losing power'.. What I complained about was Chaos losing its Chaotic nature.

Furthermore, are you saying that you don't have a problem with people's entire armies being invalidated as the Legion rules don't exist, or that you're fine with my Screamers having the same rules as your Nurglings?

BYE

Posted By Mithrax on 08/13/2007 5:58 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I swear I remember the crew at GW saying at the time of the 3rd ed Chaos Codex Mk. 2, that they were totally going away from random effects on Chaos Troops....

Now If I, who have the memory of a gnat can remember that, what the hell happened to the Dev. Team? It failed in 3rd ed with the first Chaos Codex and now they think it's a good idea?

I really suspect that they'll be doing a full rework of Chaos like they did in 3rd ed.

The 3.5 Codex was written by Haines and Hoare.
The 3.0 Codex was written by Jervis, who just happens to now be head of 40k, so he just went back and undid those changes.

Jervis doesn't much care for the opinions of others, something he's admitted.

Nice review, HBMC. I guess I'll do what I was planning to do anyway, read the fluff in the store and leave the book on the shelf.

Claws of Lorek... brilliant.

I guess I'll just wait for Apocalypse. Good review, half brother.

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/13/2007 6:54 PM
Nice review, HBMC. I guess I'll do what I was planning to do anyway, read the fluff in the store and leave the book on the shelf.

Apparently I'll be doing the same thing.

It's a shame... a damn shame!

I have an idea for GW to consider:

Every time you a*$%&*)s release a Codex, also release a companion product, perhaps just a postcard sized thing with the cover art of the Codex on it, which I can purchase to represent the fact that I hate your slowed games designers, and want them to be shot in the face. What I'm getting at here is that not spending money on your lame excuses for rules is not enough. Boycotting is not enough. I would like to actually spend money to voice my loathing for you as rules authors and as human beings.

I mean, seriously. SERIOUSLY. Stop being so goddamn awful.

Really that makes no sense.

I think I'm just getting terribly confused by it all. I've put a lot of my time and energy into the GW hobby. I've given them tons of my money. Watching them fail so obviously, in a fashion that seems almost inentional... It's hard to stomach. I literally want to fight them.

Yeah, that's what it is! I would like GW to sell a companion product, which, if purchased, entitles me to fight Thorpe or Johnson. A real fistfight. They have to show up, they can give it their all, but it's not over until somebody is unconscious. And Jervis's kid has to watch. If he's confused, he can even have a black and white picture of my fist, so he can understand what the angry American is using to crush his father's eyesocket.

I'm serious GW. This is the money making secret you've been looking for. Nobody is going to continue paying for the work of these retardeds if it's in the form of rules. But I can promise you, lots of people will pay top dollar to stomp on Gavin Thorpe's crotch.

It's friggin genius.

Eldar got similar treatment when their codex was redone.

Craftworlds gone. Legions gone.
10 man squad to have a heavy weapon.

I would consider aspect more like cult troops, and at least in chaos they are troops, not elites/heavy/fast.

It's not like you have "greater chaos marines" and "lesser chaos marines" which is what would be more like what you were saying about aspect warriors/guardians.

good review, dude

don't forget, "they're not a rules company, they're a miniatures company"

I know.  You're right on a more macro level.  I was just trying to put up a quick example.  They should have gotten rid of all demons and promised a cross-over demon book within a year, like they did with fantasy.  Like HBMC said, screamers =/= nurglings.  Half-@$$ing it, like GW has taken up in the last few releases, is not a viable solution.

Thank you for the amusing read. (Mmm, vitriol!) But what is up with the text editor? There are several places where lines are superimposed on each other, with the result that none are readable.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up.  At least I can tell you went into the dex with an open mind and no bias .

Seriously though, the complaints I've seen boil down to two things; Vet options and HQ options.  10 men for a heavy, that's a balance issue regardless of fluff and the loyalists you compare to are getting theirs soon. 

Honestly however, I don't believe it has much to do about the "chaotic" nature of chaos and moreso the uber characters of doom (Barring Aba) and vets. 

As an example, you state when speaking about chaos in general the marks are dull as they've lost the interesting rules such as true grit, blood rage, etc.  Yet later, you state that Zerks are actually decent now as they've lost that "idiotic blood rage".  Well as a Zerk player, I can tell you without a doubt there was little interesting about blood rage and I would agree with your later statement of idiotic.  Yes, the first few games with them it was humurous as they went crazy and jumped out of rhinos.  After a few more games, it quickly loses its appeal and becomes rather annoying.

As another example, a great deal of people are knocking the new possessed.  Well, they are chaotic in nature since you don't know what you will get.

Regardless, I appreciate the review and agree with some of it.  I can swallow my bile regarding demons since confirmation of a demon dex.

Great review. I'm $21.00 richer now.

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 08/13/2007 8:08 PM

As another example, a great deal of people are knocking the new possessed.  Well, they are chaotic in nature since you don't know what you will get.

So dumb. I can't think of anything to say other than "what?"

I've tried for five minutes. I just can't.

Thanks H.B.M.C,

Top review. I'ld have been laughing if it wasn't so damn depressing.

I think this says 2 things about GW...firstly that they're aiming to dumb down 40K so far that it isn't funny, and secondly that they are getting some bad advice from somewhere.

The day Jervis bred might have been the beginning of the end for WH 40000...

Ah well, saved me $30.00.  

Posted By efarrer on 08/13/2007 8:22 PM

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 08/13/2007 8:08 PM

As another example, a great deal of people are knocking the new possessed.  Well, they are chaotic in nature since you don't know what you will get.

So dumb. I can't think of anything to say other than "what?"

I've tried for five minutes. I just can't.

Can't never did anything.  I know you can do it and I'll attempt to help.

Sarcasm:  Harsh or bitter derision or irony.

Chaotic:  A condition or place of disorder.

Some (Not directed soley at HB) state that chaos is no longer chaotic.  The same group will perhaps complain that possessed are useless since they receive random powers.  So it's harsh irony complaining about possessed...which are actually the very thing they bemoan the dex lacks.

As I stated in my post, a better complaint would be the dex lacks vet/HQ options.  The units do distinguish themselves from each other but with simplified stat changes as compared to previous rule changes. 

As a sidenote, perhaps a moment of curiosity, do rule changes really effect people this deeply or is this internet drama?  Hell the guys I play with...we change rules on a consistent basis as HBs group seems to do.  The only thing that really effects me when a new dex rolls out is how it will effect future/new models for me to paint.  Of course, I don't frequent tournaments monthly either so perhaps I'm out of the loop.  Even then, everything seems to be moving to the middle of the beach so I would suspect it will actually make tournament results more on par.  *Shrug*, I'm not that competitive though so I don't know.

People only want to be slightly Chaotic. 4 heavy support choices and Siren Princes are fluffy, but random possessed?... Whoa there, that's too Chaotic for me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

QFT!!


When we say chaotic, we mean antagonists who sow disorder. NOT random.

 

Good review by the way. It seemed as objective as you could be. The demon section, or lack there of, is reason enough to ignore this codex. Thanks for saving me my $$.

That had to be the most biased review I had ever seen.  In theory when someone does a review, they do it with an open mind and try to point out both good and bad.  This was nothing except specific negativity.  The first two paragraphs are nothing except insults.

The marks are called a gross 'oversimplification'.  Okay, everyone hated blood rage, because it made the khorne army play itself.  As for Nurgle marines losing true grit, they got BETTER.  THey have bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon, which is much better than true grit.  You'd rather have a stupid special rule that's worse than a simpler way of doing the exact same thing?  Because doing +1 initiative with warp scream was so much better? That makes no sense. 

Someone else pointed out that you wanted more "chaotic", well, possessed got more " chaotic".  Oh, I see, what you really meant to say was chaotic and overpowered.  Or you want consistency, which is hardly "chaotic" or random. 

I also like how you think the sonic blaster is overpriced.  It's not just a few more bolter shots.  It's the ability to move and shoot 24", or have 3 shots at 24" if you don't move, which is THREE times the number of shots of a bolter. 

<Rolls eyes> nevermind that the land raider is much cheaper. 

As for options...I called the old chaos codex a cesspool of crap.  There were so many stupid extra upgrades and special rules that you could make a broken list completely unintentionally.  On top of that taking thousand sons to a tournament was a nightmare because no one understood how the rules worked.  You need to know majority armor, majority toughness, multiple wounds, how to do scoring with units of different wounds, slow and purposeful, rubric vs. non rubric, psycher, and a billion other things that simply caused lots and lots of rules arguments.  The tiny, 3 columned text for the Wargear section was only fun for the power gamers.  I don't think you understand the first idea of game balance or game design if you believe that a billion options is good for a game.  It might be fun for YOU, but it isn't fun to the other person on the other side of the board. 

It's obvious you ran into this codex with bias, looking for every single thing you didn't like so you could complain loudly to the message board.  That review was nothing more than an opinionated rant...you say the legions are gone...but if you want to play emperor's children the noise marines are still in there. 

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/13/2007 8:45 PM
People only want to be slightly Chaotic. 4 heavy support choices and Siren Princes are fluffy, but random possessed?... Whoa there, that's too Chaotic for me.

Christ you people $#!t me.

This isn't about Siren Princes and IW Heavy Support slots you idiot. Get your head out of your donkey cannon for a few seconds and read what I actually wrote.

Did I spent 6 pages lamenting that I could no longer take 4 Defilers? Did I complain that my Siren Prince and Siren Keeper can no longer trash entire armies?

NO!

I talking about how GW's attempts to make the Defiler into a HTH monster failed because they gave it the same HTH prowess as a Guardsman. I talked about how the generic Daemons are an insult to Chaos players.

When will you Ozy, and people like you, take your fingers out of your God-Damned ears and realise that NO ONE has talking about lamenting the loss of Siren Princes and super-powerful abused lists other than YOURSELVES.

And it's called a STRAWMAN ATTACK. You're putting words into our mouths and then calling us on things we didn't even say. Cut it out.

Finally, Chaos =/= Random. Chaos = corruption. It's cutting your arm and mice coming out rather than blood. It's cheese and anvils falling from the sky. It's not a D6 table to find out if your 26 point Possessed are going to do anything this game.

BYE

I think what you really want to say and completely failed at doing so was that you want variety and balanced options in a codex.  Variety is the spice of life...without it, everything looks exactly the same. 

I certainly agree that the codex dropped the ball in a lot of places.  For instance, there's one section where you can take a plasma pistol for more than a meltagun.  Normally you'd say, hey, you get an extra attack with a close combat weapon with the pistol.  However, you keep bolt pistol and close combat weapon with the meltagun, so there is no reason to ever take the plasma pistol that costs more points and is crappier in every way.  (Except against the Eldar Avatar, of course).  Or if you don't move and want to shoot twice. 

I certainly agree with Demons being removed...either do it right or not at all. 

I certainly agree with the Defiler being overpriced and junky at over 150 points. 

However, the more options you have the more difficult it is to make every single option viable and balanced both within the codex and compared to other codecies.  If GW had taken out the must take demon gifts like demonic strength and demonic mutation and left in a bunch of essentially worthless upgrades, would you really be happy with that?  Somehow i don't think so...

Finally, Chaos =/= Random. Chaos = corruption. It's cutting your arm and mice coming out rather than blood. It's cheese and anvils falling from the sky.

Is that the line they gave when they were promoting WAR, or is
that a generic Chaos thing or from a rulebook somewhere?

I never said it wouldn't be. If it wasn't clear what my opinion of the Codex was after the first paragraph, then you're not paying attention. Furthermore, anyone here who knows me knows it was going to be biased.

And speaking of not paying attention...



It doesn't matter whether its better or worse than it was before, it's a matter of it becoming dull. Everything gets standardised and options dissapear. It doesn't matter if, overall, the unit is more powerful, it's a boring unit to use.



Random is not another word for Chaos.



It took you three paragraphs to hit me with a strawman. It's at this point your opinion becomes meaningless as you have made it clear that you are incapable of mounting a real argument without putting words into my mouth.

Do me a favour, read the review again, look at what I'm complaining about. I'm not talking at all about power. I even say that things have gotten more powerful. I even say I like a lot of what's in there (mostly the fluff). I'm not complaining about losing power. I'm complaining about losing interest.

Though, perhaps 'review' wasn't the best way of putting it. Maybe deconstruction would have been more accurate.

BYE

This is a codex i'll be skipping. I'll wait for the deamon one. Though no armor save for spawn means I a will not be buying that tide of mutation boxed set. See GW, your lousy rules just lost you over $100.

ender502

GW releases the trainwreck known as the chaos codex, PP announces two new expansions....heh.

You know, when I got done reading the new chaos codex I had it think about it for a while, and what I came up with was “Wow, the KILLED anything that came close to variety in that one” (I don’t play chaos myself but I always enjoyed watching my friend come up with crazy ideas, like a 16 juggernaut ridding unit) but after playing a few games against this new codex (I play orks if that matters) I have to say there’s still a lot you can do with it, sure nothing crazy and overpowered/useless but things like chaos assault terminators without having to spend 30 extra points a model is just great for chaos. (and seeing a chaos lord of khorne getting around 15ish attacks around is just awesome)

Anyways back the to whole killing variety, I really did hate what they did with deamons and takeing away the legions but after hearing about Codex: Deamons and finding out that soon CSM’s will be able to take LaTD ally’s it hit me “Its like chaos in fantasy” if you were to play a mortal army in fantasy you would have VERY little variety, but mix in deamons and beastmen and you have yourself a crazy army once more! Anyways I’m going to chill a while and see what they do with orks, apocalypse and codex: Deamons

Just my two cents

Posted By malfred on 08/13/2007 9:05 PM

Is that the line they gave when they were promoting WAR, or is
that a generic Chaos thing or from a rulebook somewhere?

It's me butchering the quote.

Mice for blood was the guy from Mythic's. Cheese and anvils is mine.

BYE

It's not a strawman. 

You yourself said the word "chaotic".  Chaotic is an adjective used to describe the state of disorder of something.  Chaos, in other words, is the exact opposite of order. 

In your own words, you said so yourself that the codex was not "chaotic" enough and was "bland." 

The possesed are a unit that ARE chaotic, randomness is in fact a form of disorder.  They are unusual and are not "bland".  You dismissed it because you considered them an unviable unit.

 

It's hardly a strawman.  If you say you want chaotic units, but you dismiss chaotic units that are unviable, what you really want are chaotic units that ARE viable.  In other words, special rules that are fluffy but are still powerful.  You claim power is not an issue, but it clearly is when you were talking about possessed. 

You said:  "It doesn't matter whether its better or worse than it was before, it's a matter of it becoming dull. Everything gets standardised and options dissapear. It doesn't matter if, overall, the unit is more powerful, it's a boring unit to use."

You missed the point of my argument.  Why is a special rule that does exactly the same thing as an extra close combat weapon more interesting?  Why is something like warp scream better and less bland than +1 initiative?  When you break it down, isn't it essentially the same thing written in a more concise and cleaner form?  Why are special rules that do nothing except confuse people superior to a simpler way of saying the exact same thing? 

Posted By scuddman on 08/13/2007 9:18 PM

If you say you want chaotic units, but you dismiss chaotic units that are unviable, what you really want are chaotic units that ARE viable.  In other words, special rules that are fluffy but are still powerful.  You claim power is not an issue, but it clearly is when you were talking about possessed. 

I dismiss Possessed because they suck.

As much as I want variety, I'm going to call a spade a spade, and Possessed are a broken, un-useable spade.

And, oddly enough, the one army in the last Codex that was more powerful the more fluffy you got was Iron Warriors. I know no one wants to hear that and wants to complain about 4 Heavy Support slots, but it really was one of the few armies in 40K that got more powerful as you got more fluffy.

If only every army could be like that...

BYE

This is almost another strawman. You are rebutting his counter-argument by defining chaos in the dictionary use, but we all know that, now follow me on this, we are talking about Warhammer's Chaos, which is not the same thing. It's like expecting a Tau Piranha to actually be a little grey alien sitting on a carnivorous fishy and that is just silly.

Posted By scuddman on 08/13/2007 9:18 PM

It's not a strawman. 

You yourself said the word "chaotic".  Chaotic is an adjective used to describe the state of disorder of something.  Chaos, in other words, is the exact opposite of order. 

In your own words, you said so yourself that the codex was not "chaotic" enough and was "bland." 

The possesed are a unit that ARE chaotic, randomness is in fact a form of disorder.  They are unusual and are not "bland".  You dismissed it because you considered them an unviable unit.

 

It's hardly a strawman.  If you say you want chaotic units, but you dismiss chaotic units that are unviable, what you really want are chaotic units that ARE viable.  In other words, special rules that are fluffy but are still powerful.  You claim power is not an issue, but it clearly is when you were talking about possessed. 

First off. Chaotic does not mean random in this chaos (although chaos never does mean random in any sense, utter confusion at best which is a reasonable term when applied to the logic used for this book). In GW's case chaos is part of  a battle between Order and Chaos, as in an eternal struggle. Chaos destroys while order builds. Nothing random in that.

Randomness is not disorder. Probability tells me what "random " should be over a system. Random is only random when you don't have the information required to understand it.

Chaotic units should be units which are capable of fulfilling thier purpose, not something that may or may not work. As HBMC pointed out if you rolled for it before you set up it would be okish. But you don't. That's not good, and it's why the unit wasn't taken during the second last codex.

Random = unpredictable
This game requires that for every point you spend youmust be capable of counting on it doing the task you have assigned. Random units don't  allow that sort of accounting, ever.

When we lament that loss of chaotic units what refer to are nuits which reflect the story background and character we have been playing with for 10+ years. Not d1000 charts fun as they may have been.

And it is a styarwman to accuse HBMC of  whining about loss of power. In particular if you want to use the possessed as an example.

Its funny that you say I made a strawman attack when nowhere in my post did I say you said anything (or mention you at all). So far, the only one making a strawman attack is you, putting words in my mouth.

If Chaos is corruption, then who cares if you need 10 marines to take a heavy, the two are unrelated to each other. I do think that Daemons could have been done better (hell, just adding marks would have worked for me), but overall, I still think that this is a better codex than the cheesefest that came before it.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Fun only lasts so long. It's balance that keeps people playing. The lack of balance killed off the game in our area. People just won't play because they don't perceive a level playing field. The fun is soon sucked away, and people drift away. A semblance of balance is needed.

In comparison, you should be comparing things to DA and BA, not the old and busted, soon to be changed Space Marine dex.

But I hold all real thoughts about the dex until it hits the field and people start playing. If it isn't a balanced dex in line with what they have recently done, then it doesn't matter what is in the dex. People still won't play.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/13/2007 9:50 PM
Its funny that you say I made a strawman attack when nowhere in my post did I say you said anything (or mention you at all). So far, the only one making a strawman attack is you, putting words in my mouth.

If Chaos is corruption, then who cares if you need 10 marines to take a heavy, the two are unrelated to each other. I do think that Daemons could have been done better (hell, just adding marks would have worked for me), but overall, I still think that this is a better codex than the cheesefest that came before it.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Let's go with "why the heck would veterans who are no longer bound to a stupid outdated dumb set of pointless rules (the index) continue to follow said rules?" in particular since those rules provide no tactical advantage and are insanity when applied to small rebel groups.  Chaos is about corrupting rules destroying them. Not following them. In particular not the dumb rules.  Your comments about daemons are spoken like someone who doesn't own 60 of them.

When it turns out that this book is far too powerful for your obviously spectacular tactical abilities what then will you do? Please note most chaos players aren't complaining about it's power...the complaints are about how it fits with everything that has come before.

Posted By scuddman on 08/13/2007 8:48 PM

That had to be the most biased review I had ever seen.  In theory when someone does a review, they do it with an open mind and try to point out both good and bad. 

Now that is a really dumb comment to make and really offends me. How dare you even suggest it - how the heck can you do a good amusing hatchet job if you approach something with an open mind. Blimey, next you will be suggesting that Warmachine miniatures suck (which by the way they do - why cannot anyone see that - I mean are you all blind - they suck salty balls - no, really - they suck - and they are over priced - no let go of me, stop it, that hurts, take that coat away, arrghh I cannot move my arms you mother.......)

Posted By Toreador on 08/13/2007 10:00 PM

But I hold all real thoughts about the dex until it hits the field and people start playing. If it isn't a balanced dex in line with what they have recently done, then it doesn't matter what is in the dex. People still won't play.

THe problem is without a global reset there can be no balance. Because there are so many armies and no planned total reset the game is stumbling along.  Creep is already returning so DA and BA armies will lose to Chaos. Chaos in turn will lose to Eldar and Tyranids. The others were never competive.

Though I do look forward to seeing how they eff up the Inquisition codex.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/13/2007 9:29 PM

Posted By scuddman on 08/13/2007 9:18 PM

If you say you want chaotic units, but you dismiss chaotic units that are unviable, what you really want are chaotic units that ARE viable.  In other words, special rules that are fluffy but are still powerful.  You claim power is not an issue, but it clearly is when you were talking about possessed. 

I dismiss Possessed because they suck.

As much as I want variety, I'm going to call a spade a spade, and Possessed are a broken, un-useable spade.

And, oddly enough, the one army in the last Codex that was more powerful the more fluffy you got was Iron Warriors. I know no one wants to hear that and wants to complain about 4 Heavy Support slots, but it really was one of the few armies in 40K that got more powerful as you got more fluffy.

If only every army could be like that...

BYE

I dismiss possessed because as pointed out the randomness doesn't make useless (sometimes a little bit of randomness is fun)-  it when the randomness that occurs that makes 26 point per model unit pointless.

Knowing what the unit does before you put it on the table makes you think and adapt your tactics. Having it change when it is on the table lumps you with it not adapt to it becuase all of a sudden it maybe in totally wrong place for several turns.

p.s I don't play chaos - never been my thing, but that possessed rule is strange.

Whether or not they are random is irrelevant to whether or not they are a chaotic unit.  What is true is that they are a chaotic unit according to his definition, but he disregards them because they are unviable.  He claimed power was not an issue.  Well, if it wasn't an issue, then possessed would be fine regardless if they were viable or not. 

 

Premise:  The Chaos Codex is bland and has no Chaotic units.

But possessed are a chaotic unit that is in the chaos codex. 

Therefore the premise is untrue. 

That's my point in the first place.  Power matters because balance matters.  My way of disproving his argument is clearly not a strawman. 

Okay, stupid talk about logic aside, let me talk about the variety of the codex.  Yes, there are a lot less options for sergeants and the like.  But take an army like Thousand sons, where their demons were unviable and all their basic troops were rubric.  THere are now a LOT more options in terms of viable units than there were before.  Tzeentch havocs, tzeentch raptors, tzeentch chosen with infiltrate, etc.  On top of that, if you just want to take rubric marines that is still viable too.  In my eyes, the legions of Tzeentch became a lot more viable, gained a lot more options, but had to trade a lot of their confusing special rules for them.  Is that bad?  I don't think so.  A more balanced army with a lot more variety in units but a lot less silly upgrades? 

On the flip side, the demons?  Goodness, they're certainly viable, but they are definitely bland there.  The flamers are exactly like the Daemonettes?  Yeah, that's pretty lame.  No doubt about that one. 

Posted By Toreador on 08/13/2007 10:00 PM
Fun only lasts so long. It's balance that keeps people playing. The lack of balance killed off the game in our area. People just won't play because they don't perceive a level playing field. The fun is soon sucked away, and people drift away. A semblance of balance is needed.

In comparison, you should be comparing things to DA and BA, not the old and busted, soon to be changed Space Marine dex.

But I hold all real thoughts about the dex until it hits the field and people start playing. If it isn't a balanced dex in line with what they have recently done, then it doesn't matter what is in the dex. People still won't play.

Usually I actually agree with what you say, but compare things to the new BA codex. Come on, man, that is the most boring narrow lack of choice piece of junk I have seen (ex 3rd edition BA - but no chaplin before people start frothing at the mouth and Salamander player). The DA and BA codex where the final straw that stopped me getting back into the game.

The DE is the last chance for me to consider starting again.

The change in the demons, well, hurt....a lot. I actually sold my Word Bearers months ago when I got a look at what was going on. Someone now has an army I put a lot of time and care into and truly enjoyed playing. However, change from GW comes as no surprise.

They've been doing this for nearly 20 years in WH40K. They are taking the same archetypes they've had and reinvent them with new models with every edition (sometimes two times in the same edition). Is it the end of the world, well, no. Will I quit 40K...no (although there have been times I wish I could get into painting Warmachine models).

The reality is for me is that I enjoy painting new models and getting a few games in a month with my buddies. For the fluff, I've been reading the HH novels which are fun reads (looking forward to reading Fulgrim BTW).

The Chaos Codex is a drastic change, as have been the last several codexes. It appears GW is actually looking for a semblance of game balance (shudder the thought). I think when played against other4th edition Codexes, sans the Space Marine Codex, there will be very good playability (with the exception of the horribly vague Lash of Submission).

Uninspiring... that remains to be seen. Some of the funnest most inspiring armies I've played against or have seen have not been because of the uber rules that they have. Rather, it was the fantastic army that has been laid out in front of me that fires up my imagination and creativity.

I've played since 1st edition and it looks like GW is finally starting to get a semblance of balance in their codexes.

Ironically, many will bemoan the new codex, but many more will most likely end up purchasing it....as well as the spiky Terminators.

HBMC: Your post is interesting and as always, befitting your history of posts: a total love/hate relationship with GW.

Posted By scuddman on 08/13/2007 10:15 PM

On the flip side, the demons?  Goodness, they're certainly viable, but they are definitely bland there.  

Do you play?

If so is the game warhammer 40K?

 

Personally, I am so very happy to see this new codex and I cannot wait until they get around to "blandizing" (tm) every single codex.

I don't feel that condensing deamons into a single troop type is an insult to me, especially since they will be getting a seperate codex in the future.

The insult to me was the last Chaos codex and the absolutely ridiculous armies that it allowed to be fielded. The insult to me was the fact that there were rules for every single legion when there ultimately doesn't need to me.

The real insult to me is the fact that there are (or will be) at least five separate codices for loyalist Space Marines, not the fact that Chaos doesn't get five separate books.

There needed to be at maximum two separate books on loyalist marines: codex marines & wacky marines. Unfortunately the die has long been cast on how many loyalist codices there would be, but suddenly giving Chaos equal treatment wouldn't make the game better, it would just flood the game with even more MEQ codices.

The simple truth is that less options in an army list means less chances for abuse. Anyone is free to disagree with that basic premise but I firmly believe it to be true.

When Jervis said they will be moving the codices towards more of a balanced tournament 1,500 point focus and leave more of the fun stuff to supplements (like Apocalypse) they clearly meant it, and I for one am very, very, very, very, very, very pleased.

So while some folks clearly feel the need to fetch their pitchforks and torches out to storm the GW castle. . .I for one have long been waiting for this day!

 

 

 

Actually I did read it and you did not directly say that it was losing power however losing its chaotic nature it is not. You did spend a lot of time comparing the chaos stuff to the space marine codex that is very recognized as too powered up. The legions can still be played just differently than in the last codex that is very different than saying they could not be played. People give their armies character not rules. For the record I love the daemons having a generic stat line now I can play my word bearers with a lot more daemons, and more variety of models. As a matter of fact since I built most of my Chaos legions using the 3.0 Codex  this one feels  it  is bringing back all the things liked and opening up even more options. The things it is doing is getting rid of all of the things that I hated about the 3.5 codex. And really saying that this is the worst thing written is a little harsh GW is trying to bring all of the codex lists into line for tournament play. Once again I say that I can't wait to see this done to the marine codex. It will mean that wherever I go I will have a much better chance of having a fun game against whoever I might play.  When I want to play games with tooled up lists and over the top combos  I can still play with my local group and  we can play whatever rules we want hell we will be playing a lot of apocalypse.

This is the most awesome thing I've ever read. I am optimistic and i generally like the new army books but seriously people, learn to laugh. =D

Here's something to ponder:

The current codices, call them bland, narrow, simple, or balanced, but in a few years are going to relatively balanced for tournament play. For a person starting 40k, or a person wanting a build an army from scratch, this new 'dex is ideal.

Here's my thing: the older books included tons of info that let a player build an army that not only looked a distinctive way, but played in a distinctive way. The old chaos codex allowed more options for building a unique force than anything else. Sure, IW needed a nerf. The current IG and SM codices are the same way: sharphooters or Cleanse and Purify alter how the list plays in terms of both power and fun.

That's the biggest loss of this book: not the power, because there's some sick stuff in it. Wordbearers can't daemonbomb. Alphas can't infiltrate. Iron Warriors are no shootier or less daemonic than the other legions. Emperor's children don't have hard hitting but incredibly fragile daemons. These are lists that are simply dead, like the squats.

Sure, with the removal of all comp restrictions you can build your own warband around whatever mix of units you like. The total diversity of units within an army will probobly go up. The overall diversity between armies will probobly go down.

My advice? If you really like your old list, than keep it! play it with friends, at the club. Build two daemon princes with wings for tournaements, but play what you enjoy with your friends.

Finally, is anybody actually surprised at the total upheaval of this codex? Has there been a book that would require the average player to buy more units than this one to maintain a legal/competitive list? As a tool to sell miniatures (which is all GW's rules are), this is a daring plan. Many players seem disgusted enough to shelve the army, but I wager that more will buckle and buy the new good units.

I guess that's the difference between you and I Yak. You're still having fun playing GW's version of 40K. Our group gave up long ago (4th Ed itself was the final straw, not any of the more recent Codices) and started playing our own rules.

Our interest in 4th Ed only remains for what good things we can steal for our own rules, as occasionally the Dev Team comes up with something we like (Cities of Death is a good example, we like playing that).

BYE

Posted By Razor Gator on 08/13/2007 6:53 PM

The 3.5 Codex was written by Haines and Hoare.
The 3.0 Codex was written by Jervis, who just happens to now be head of 40k, so he just went back and undid those changes.

Jervis doesn't much care for the opinions of others, something he's admitted.

Jervis doesn't much care for Chaos either, something he's admitted.  As for the 3.0 Chaos Codex he pretty much admitted to phoning it in.

Posted By Toreador on 08/13/2007 10:00 PM
In comparison, you should be comparing things to DA and BA, not the old and busted, soon to be changed Space Marine dex.

What is this pie-in-the-sky space marine dex you keep talking about?  The rumors of an imminent space marine redux have been debunked by studio members.  There is no SM dex coming "soon" - unless by "soon" you mean "in several years when they release 5th edition".

Posted By scuddman on 08/13/2007 10:15 PM
But take an army like Thousand sons, where their demons were unviable and all their basic troops were rubric.  THere are now a LOT more options in terms of viable units than there were before.  Tzeentch havocs, tzeentch raptors, tzeentch chosen with infiltrate, etc.

The only people who think that the space marine codex should be "very recognized as too powered up" (That's an absolutely marvelous trashing of the English language by the way), are people who aren't smart/competent enough to be playing the game in the first place.

I don't know why fanboys think that everyone wants to hear their opinion.  I know that I certainly don't.

As for my intelligence level I can not say (I have not had an IQ test in a long time) there are smarter people and people who don't understand things as easily as me. I will however stand on my record of the game for whether I am competent to play the game. I have played all kinds of lists and I tend to win about 80% of my games. I try not to play tooled up lists because they tend to not be fun for me or my opponent. I have taken tooled up lists to tournaments but never won overall with them I have won quite a few with my more balanced armies and have made good friends when I did it. And it has been stated by developers that when they get to re doing the space marine codex things like two heavy weapons (Assault Cannons) in terminator squads , Combat Squads  (no more 5 man las plas squads) and scouts as troops will be  addressed.

From what I'm reading it seems people are justifying the neutering of the flavor of 40k because of tournaments.  I've thought this for years, but tourney play is killing what makes 40k great.  Variety.  Style.  Character.  Armies should be built on theme and background, not what will get you the best place in the next tournament.  With all the new codecies we are losing that.  No more Craftworlds, strictly built DA and BA armies where you have to take a specific character to get anything other than a bog standard army, and now the loss of the legions and daemons.

And what? We have tourneys to blame?  How ridiculous and frivolous.  So they're killing the game so that groups of nerds can get together an compare codpiece sizes?  And here I though that the elimination of the GT circuit would be a good thing.  Guess not.  GW is only feeding into that need for hamfisted competition for what reason?  Anyone?  Bueller?

If that's the only reason you play the game, then I don't think we could ever agree on anything.  For me, 40k is already dead.  This is just a dead horse to beat on a little more.  No, it's digging up its dead corpse and hanging it, then cutting off its head and having a firing squad take their aim. 

<raises for="" pint="" a="">+++raises a pint for 40k+++

I used to think "maybe 5th edition."  Now I thinking more like 6th.</raises>

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 12:01 AM

And it has been stated by developers that when they get to re doing the space marine codex things like two heavy weapons (Assault Cannons) in terminator squads , Combat Squads  (no more 5 man las plas squads) and scouts as troops will be  addressed.

"...when they get to re doing the space marine codex..."

When, pray tell, do you imagine that will be?

HBMC, thank you for your excellent review, or as you referred to it, your "deconstruction." As someone who has never purchased a Chaos model, I laughed hysterically, particularly while reading such gems as, "Unlike Space Marine Librarians, Chaos Sorcerers have been working in the Eye of Terror for the Chaos Gods and therefore cannot get two ultra-cheap powers," and--you must forgive me for my weakness for vulgar jokes--"After reading pages 61-63 of the new Chaos Codex, I am left with only two words to say to Mr. Thorpe, Mr. Cavatore and Mr. Johnson: F#%k. You."

Splendid. Simply tremendous, old sport.

Having read that review, I feel better and better every time I think about WHFB.

That part of it no one can say except GW themselves.

Posted By yakface on 08/13/2007 11:15 PM
Unfortunately the die has long been cast on how many loyalist codices there would be, but suddenly giving Chaos equal treatment wouldn't make the game better, it would just flood the game with even more MEQ codices.

Not necessarily.  Instead of splitting Chaos into CSM and daemon codices, they could have split them into vanilla and cult.  The vanilla codex would cover all the undivided legions + their servants and followers (cultists, mutants, beastmen, etc).  The cult codex(es) would cover the 4 cult legions + their servants and followers.  None of these codices would have to be dedicated MEq codices.  Each would give you the option to make an all MEq army, an all GEq army, or a mix.

IMHO it makes a lot more sense to split the lists up by allegiance rather than armor save.  Afterall, where are Thousand Sons more likely to pop up?  At the head of a coven of Tzeentch-worshippers?  Or running around with Slaanesh-worshipping Black Legion Fzorgle Sorcerers?

The simple truth is that less options in an army list means less chances for abuse.

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 08/14/2007 12:04 AM
From what I'm reading it seems people are justifying the neutering of the flavor of 40k because of tournaments.  I've thought this for years, but tourney play is killing what makes 40k great.  Variety.  Style.  Character.  Armies should be built on theme and background, not what will get you the best place in the next tournament.  With all the new codecies we are losing that.  No more Craftworlds, strictly built DA and BA armies where you have to take a specific character to get anything other than a bog standard army, and now the loss of the legions and daemons.

And what? We have tourneys to blame?  How ridiculous and frivolous.  So they're killing the game so that groups of nerds can get together an compare codpiece sizes?  And here I though that the elimination of the GT circuit would be a good thing.  Guess not.  GW is only feeding into that need for hamfisted competition for what reason?  Anyone?  Bueller?

If that's the only reason you play the game, then I don't think we could ever agree on anything.  For me, 40k is already dead.  This is just a dead horse to beat on a little more.  No, it's digging up its dead corpse and hanging it, then cutting off its head and having a firing squad take their aim. 

<raises a="" for="" pint=""></raises>

I used to think "maybe 5th edition."  Now I thinking more like 6th.

The thing is, in individual gaming groups players can always easily create and modify rules to suit their tastes. You and your buddies want to make a detailed Legion army list (or use the old rules)? You will!

What is much, much harder is to get a balanced game in a tournament setting. Many players *female dog* about comp scores being used in tournaments but they've been the stop-gap method to try to get players to play an army more closely resembling what the fluff portrays.

This is because all the older codices were purposely left wider open to allow themed players to build forces they liked but also supposedly to cater to tournament players as well.

Trying to cater to every type of player in a single army list is never every going to properly work, especially when the pressure remains to cram something new and exciting into each new iteration of the game.

To me, having a base set of army lists for tournament play and then branching out more into the fun side of things in supplements is ultimately the best idea GW has had in a long time.

Sure the birthing pains of waiting the 5 years for every codex to become streamlined is going to be a little bit odd, but I believe the payoff will indeed be a situation where you can enter a tournament or play a pick-up game and the GAME itself will matter just as much as the army lists being used.

 

 

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 08/14/2007 12:04 AM
From what I'm reading it seems people are justifying the neutering of the flavor of 40k because of tournaments.  I've thought this for years, but tourney play is killing what makes 40k great.  Variety.  Style.  Character.  Armies should be built on theme and background, not what will get you the best place in the next tournament.  With all the new codecies we are losing that.  No more Craftworlds, strictly built DA and BA armies where you have to take a specific character to get anything other than a bog standard army, and now the loss of the legions and daemons.

And what? We have tourneys to blame?  How ridiculous and frivolous.  So they're killing the game so that groups of nerds can get together an compare codpiece sizes?  And here I though that the elimination of the GT circuit would be a good thing.  Guess not.  GW is only feeding into that need for hamfisted competition for what reason?  Anyone?  Bueller?

If that's the only reason you play the game, then I don't think we could ever agree on anything.  For me, 40k is already dead.  This is just a dead horse to beat on a little more.  No, it's digging up its dead corpse and hanging it, then cutting off its head and having a firing squad take their aim. 

<raises a="" pint="" for="">+++raises a pint for 40k+++

I used to think "maybe 5th edition."  Now I thinking more like 6th.</raises>

Actually even though GW is working on balancing the game for tournament play they are also doing more to support playing outside of that format. (Cities if Death, Apocalypse)
Craftworlds aren't  gone
Legions aren't gone
Daemons aren't gone
DA and BA are specific chapters of Marines with Specific rules and  they can still have very different builds.
None of these things have disappeared they just work differently.
GW has finally recognized that a lot of their business comes from people who play in tournaments and from new players, as long as they continue to do supplements for vets players them I am glad that they are balancing things for tournaments it will make them more fun for the general players.

Haven't played a game of 40k in 2 years crew checkin in'.

How's it going guys? I stopped playing immediately after the 'synapse only protects against exactly double toughness' ruling. Even though they rapidly changed it, I realized that at any moment GW would make similarly terrible rulings that would continue to destroy their product. This latest chaos codex is yet another vindication of my decision.

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 12:25 AM

Craftworlds aren't  gone
Legions aren't gone
Daemons aren't gone
 
None of these things have disappeared they just work differently.

You're right.  Your Beil-Tan always take 3 Falcons because they are piloted by Guardians who have not yet begun to walk the Path of the Warrior, while my Iyanden always take 3 Falcons because they are piloted by elder spirits in Waystones, who appear to have Guardian BS but actually don't shoot as well as their Wraithguard and Wraithlord brethren because they have to concentrate on piloting the tank while shooting.   I'm also happy that the two Demon Princes in your Deathguard army can take the Lash of Affliction, and the two Demon Princes in my 1K Sons army can take the Lash of Metamorphosis.  All four have higher intitative because they're all really fast--hey, they're demons!  And most importantly, I understand that your Nuglings have T4 because they are small and hard to hit, while my Flamers have T4 because they are larger and bulkier.

You're right.  Craftworlds, Legions, and Demons do still exist: they just play differently.  Hooray for the new Codex!

Craftworlds, legions and demons are now color schemes.  So what's the point?  I don't want my blue chaos marines to play the same as my friend's red ones.  Might as well just leave them grey so you can change what they are every game.
Maybe I've just been spoiled with a really awesome gaming group.  Yes, some have been in tourneys, but most of the time when we played it was with fluffy, interesting armies that did more than just capitalize on rulebook loopholes.  And it's not like there won't be rules loopholes now anyway!  This is GW we're talking about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that 3rd edition was perfect, but they're taking this game in the wrong direction.  Squeezing out all the in-game customization and leaving different colored marines and spikey marines is a horrible idea.  The richness of 40k fluff deserves to be recognized in-game.  And not just by what color your marines are.

And Lord Yak, I'm well acquainted with custom rules.  Under 3rd edition I wrote 2 versions of a codex for my DIY chapter, made complete Primarch rules, wrote a Rebel Grotz codex, played with converting 40k into a Mordheim style, and ran two Necromunda campaigns.  Plus I game with one of the guys who did a lot of work on the General's Compendium.  Needless to say, he came up with a few things too.  Thing is, it's a lot of work and I never really got to play them much inside my group, let alone outside of it.  I don't know.  Feeling like the professionals are doing a worse job than us amateurs is a disturbing thought.

The thing I'm working on now is a direct answer to my problems with 40k.  They'll be out soon enough.

Edit: Exalt BigChris!

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/14/2007 12:43 AM

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 12:25 AM

Craftworlds aren't  gone
Legions aren't gone
Daemons aren't gone
 
None of these things have disappeared they just work differently.

You're right.  Your Beil-Tan always take 3 Falcons because they are piloted by Guardians who have not yet begun to walk the Path of the Warrior, while my Iyanden always take 3 Falcons because they are piloted by elder spirits in Waystones, who appear to have Guardian BS but actually don't shoot as well as their Wraithguard and Wraithlord brethren because they have to concentrate on piloting the tank while shooting.   I'm also happy that the two Demon Princes in your Deathguard army can take the Lash of Afflication, and the two Demon Princes in my 1K Sons army can take the Lash of Metamorphosis.  All four have higher intitative because they're all really fast--hey, they're demons!  And most importantly, I understand that your Nuglings have T4 because they are small and hard to hit, while my Flamers have T4 because they are larger and bulkier.

You're right.  Craftworlds, Legions, and Demons do still exist: they just play differently.  Hooray for the new Codex!

Actually my Beil-Tan don't have falcon grave tanks and neither do my Iyanden my Uthwee does have Fire Prisms and My Sam -Haim uses mostly Vipers, The only Chaos army I have with a Daemon prince is my Word Bearers and he is the Belakor model. My Death Gaurd do have a Terminator lord that sometimes is Typhus, My 1000 sons Have a sorcerr that sometimes is Arihman. My World Eaters are led by a Lord on a Juggernaut or by A lord who looks like Karn and sometimes is Karn. What I am saying is that My Craftworlds, and Legions aren't defined by rules they are defined by the models I play with and the time I have put into collecting and painting them.  Oh  and my  White Scars  are all on bikes  with BP  CCW   played as Regular bike troops  with Three Land Speeders added to the mix (no matter what people might think I have only lost two games with them since the new codex came out and I completly changed my tactics)

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 1:02 AM

Actually my Beil-Tan don't have falcon grave tanks and neither do my Iyanden my Uthwee does have Fire Prisms and My Sam -Haim uses mostly Vipers...

But you're not playing Beil-Tan or Ulthwe as these army lists don't exist any more. You're playing Codex: Eldar. That's all you're playing. There are no Seer Councils, Courts of the Young King or Wild Rider Chieftans. There are Farseers, Avatars and Autarch's on Bikes.

There are no Death Guard Daemon Princes, Emperor's Children Sorcerers or Berzerker Bikers. There are Daemon Princes with the Mark of Nurgle, Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh and Bikes with the Mark of Khorne.

There are no Screamers, no Nurglings, no Bloodletters and no Daemonette Cavalry. There are generic Daemons with one staline to rule them all and a different paintjob/model.

Stop trying to say that Craftworlds, Legions and Daemons still exist in these new Codices. Stop trying to say you can still play Word Bearers or Iyanden. You can't. What you can do is play Codex: Eldar and paint them like an Iyanden army. You can also play Codex: Chaos and paint them like Word Bearers. But they're not those armies any more. They don't exist in the rules anymore. Please stop pretending they do.

BYE

I found this post over in the general forum, and I thought I'd share it with you:

I'm starting to think that my review/deconstruction might actually be bang on the money.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 1:39 AM
Stop trying to say that Craftworlds, Legions and Daemons still exist in these new Codices. Stop trying to say you can still play Word Bearers or Iyanden. You can't. What you can do is play Codex: Eldar and paint them like an Iyanden army. You can also play Codex: Chaos and paint them like Word Bearers. But they're not those armies any more. They don't exist in the rules anymore. Please stop pretending they do.

BYE

  I play Ultramarines.  We haven't had our own Codex since second edition, but we're still the Ultramarines. 

Frankly, I don't much care about the Legion special rules, but I (as an owner of both Realm of Chaos books) agree that they went too far with the daemons. 

Don't be obtuse. You know exactly what I meant by that.

And right now the Ultramarines have more special rules, units and characters than all the Word Beaers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Biel-Tan, Iyanden and Alaitoc rolled into one.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 1:39 AM

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 1:02 AM

Actually my Beil-Tan don't have falcon grave tanks and neither do my Iyanden my Uthwee does have Fire Prisms and My Sam -Haim uses mostly Vipers...

But you're not playing Beil-Tan or Ulthwe as these army lists don't exist any more. You're playing Codex: Eldar. That's all you're playing. There are no Seer Councils, Courts of the Young King or Wild Rider Chieftans. There are Farseers, Avatars and Autarch's on Bikes.

There are no Death Guard Daemon Princes, Emperor's Children Sorcerers or Berzerker Bikers. There are Daemon Princes with the Mark of Nurgle, Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh and Bikes with the Mark of Khorne.

There are no Screamers, no Nurglings, no Bloodletters and no Daemonette Cavalry. There are generic Daemons with one staline to rule them all and a different paintjob/model.

Stop trying to say that Craftworlds, Legions and Daemons still exist in these new Codices. Stop trying to say you can still play Word Bearers or Iyanden. You can't. What you can do is play Codex: Eldar and paint them like an Iyanden army. You can also play Codex: Chaos and paint them like Word Bearers. But they're not those armies any more. They don't exist in the rules anymore. Please stop pretending they do.

BYE

And there aren't and have never have been specialized rules for most of the variant army types mentioned in GW fluff over the years, but that doesn't mean the ideas don't exist, just that they don't have their own particular rules to represent them.

Any time you make a game you can decide what scale you want to focus on. I'm sure that if you are creating a historical wargame and you pick a country in the world and focus deeply enough you will find that the organization and customs of each individual town were different enough. You could then go and make a game with a thousand different Italian army lists (and I'm sure there are games out there that do it), but you don't have to. If your game covers many countries then you can just have a generic "Italian" army list.

Sure your game doesn't have the ability to play as each individual tribe but do you really need it to?

 

I will say again: The crime here is not that each individual legion doesn't have its own army list it's that they ever did and that the loyalist marine variants always will. For the core version of the game we really only should have a loyalist marine list and a Chaos list that are both generally malleable to represent most types of marine armies found on both sides.

Again, that's just my opinion of what would make 40K a better game playing experience (for me).

 

I think the review was spot on. Although I mainly collect GW miniatures for the enjoyment of modelling and painting, I do still play, and of course what I collect and paint mostly only has relevance if they follow the army rules they were intended to represent.

It is soul destroying to spend time and effort creating and army only to have the company that sold said army to you, to abandon you and crap over your efforts.

All that being said....GW is doing badly, we've seen the reports, we've seen the advertisments on their website ( Battle Brothers & Do you want to sell GW products )
this is not a company that can afford to ignore their customer base anymore......and yet, it seems they are still up to their old elitist tricks.

Vote with your wallet. Its the only way these companies understand their mistakes...when it hits them in the profit area!

Lets face it, GW fluff is generally ok, but the miniatures and the rules have been lacking for some time and can't keep up with the competition.

Its time to stop arguing amongst ourselves. There will be two types of future gamer, those who play WH40k and those that don't. I belive the group that doesn't play will soon be in the majority........

What we need to do now, is to spend our efforts finding and supporting an alternative system. Stop buying GW minis, rules, and stop giving them our time and attention.

Thankyou H.B.M.C. at last someone could be bothered to review the Codex for us.

Thats your defense of the new chaos book? One unit is chaotic therefore the book is ok?

Thats the dumbest arguement I've seen yet.

Sure, the old book had some broken units. And sure the new book is balanced.

But its SO boring to play it looks like, and has sucked all the life out of chaos. Its not worth my time to convert and build were I to play chaos. Its just not.

and no matter how balanced it is.....as someone said, without the global reset, its not worth playing with a handful of balanced books with 2-4 other armies are not.

Yakface has some very good points, and frankly, they echo the complaints from the end of 3rd ed. A number of the codicies were out of control, Chaos being the worst offender, and there were numerous complaints about Marines.

4th edition began to reemphasize the problem: the Black Tome was great, but you had at least two 'dexes that ignored most of the emphasis on leadership etc.

I'm not saying it's good for Chaos--in large measure they threw the baby out with the bathwater on this one. They could have made them, as was suggested above, mixed 'dexes of daemons, marines and cultists/renegades (sort of the ancillary to the Daemon/Witchhunter books), with crazy but balanced units. On the other hand, Jervis & Co. is clearly responding to the complaints that have come down the pike about over the top lists.

Oh, and while the SM: Redux has been dropped as a 'release' per se, I wouldn't be surprised if the next printing of Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars have a few 'modifications' in them, a la 3.5 Chaos Codex printings...

Posted By yakface on 08/13/2007 11:15 PM

 

Personally, I am so very happy to see this new codex and I cannot wait until they get around to "blandizing" (tm) every single codex.

I don't feel that condensing deamons into a single troop type is an insult to me, especially since they will be getting a seperate codex in the future.

The insult to me was the last Chaos codex and the absolutely ridiculous armies that it allowed to be fielded. The insult to me was the fact that there were rules for every single legion when there ultimately doesn't need to me.

The real insult to me is the fact that there are (or will be) at least five separate codices for loyalist Space Marines, not the fact that Chaos doesn't get five separate books.

There needed to be at maximum two separate books on loyalist marines: codex marines & wacky marines. Unfortunately the die has long been cast on how many loyalist codices there would be, but suddenly giving Chaos equal treatment wouldn't make the game better, it would just flood the game with even more MEQ codices.

The simple truth is that less options in an army list means less chances for abuse. Anyone is free to disagree with that basic premise but I firmly believe it to be true.

When Jervis said they will be moving the codices towards more of a balanced tournament 1,500 point focus and leave more of the fun stuff to supplements (like Apocalypse) they clearly meant it, and I for one am very, very, very, very, very, very pleased.

So while some folks clearly feel the need to fetch their pitchforks and torches out to storm the GW castle. . .I for one have long been waiting for this day!

 

 

 

 

Good post (And I'm not saying that because you're the new owner)

I never understood why people allow new rules to raise their blood pressure.  The only sense I can make out of it is that they are tournament players only? 

I just want to say the Half Brother of Marneus Calgar is my hero.

I don't agree with everything he said, I think the last Chaos book was too full of persnikity rules and poorly balanced but I like his style and darn it he has passion for his cause.

I gave up on GW a long time ago, it's so nice to see someone who does care and does want them to do better.

Excellent work HBMC. Your review was fun, informative and opinionated. I wouldn't paint the walls so dark however, as there's been plenty of turnarounds like this in army book design through the years and we're all still playing. Anyone remember the first C:CSM of the third edition? Talk about bland and uninspired.

Personally I'm very disappointed that the daemons turned out like this and GW may yet turn this daemon debacle into a complete disaster if the upcoming Daemon Codex doesn't include LaTD but is indeed simply some poor version of the Warhammer Fantasy Daemon Legions. I'm not sure this bothers everyone as much as it does me because a lot of people refused to use daemons even in their previous incarnations, and almost noone plays LaTD. I'm just sad to see so much squandered potential.

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 08/14/2007 6:01 AM

I never understood why people allow new rules to raise their blood pressure.  The only sense I can make out of it is that they are tournament players only? 

You really haven't been paying any attention, have you?  Tournament players love, I mean absolutey love this new codex, assuming they didn't already have a well painted and converted IW army.  Double DP, 9 oblit or 3 vindy armies bulked out with cheap termies, raptors, and enough marines to summon the cheap greater daemon will make for a powerful, flexible list.

It's the lose of rules to match background, the loss of legion specific lists, the complete and unneccesary change in daemons, and a host of other problems.

HBMC has been saying this for days, but people complain about armies for reason other than power!  We really do!  This codex has killed builds, like daemonbomb (which was a ton of fun to play with, btw.), like Alpha Legion, like a Night Lord biker horde, etc.

Don't feel bad for tournament players.  Feel bad for guys with expensively converted armies that now "count as" a generic unit. 

Thanks for the review HBMC, funny and right on in a lot of places, IMO.

I was gonna respond more directly to some of your comments, but this thread is already a monster approaching Warseer proportions

I agree on the fluff in the new book being the better part of it (HA), but I was struck by the art as well. I like the b&w sketches in the wargear section well enough, but the loss of all that wonderful Adrian Smith art is pretty emblematic of the loss of all the army options rules-wise. Sure, there are 2 full-page Smith panels from the last book, but that's like the small kernel of kaos that still lingers in the armylist. Just not enough.

When I told my brother the art of Abaddon's Chosen was still in there (p. 103), he got to musing about where the hell those guys are. The veterans of 10,000 wars, hardened marines forged in the heat of the heresy itself, bringing mayhem and carnage in the names of their weird and wonderful chaos deities. Wherever they are, it isn't here.

A galaxy slightly singed, indeed.

- Salvage

Posted By syr8766 on 08/13/2007 6:21 PM
Great review HBMC. Much thanks.

since all of the Xenos armies so far are competitive, one wonders if this is not just the elimination of choices, but an actual attempt to de-emphasize Space Marines (without saying that, as it would just peeve off everyone)?

Thanks for taking the time to post this review H.M.B.C

I recall before the new Da and BA codex's people were complaining about chaos and normal marine armies being unbalanced.  Demon bombs and AC heavy marine lists.  Now thats they have toned that  down people are complaing about that. 

IMO i am fine with them doing this.  Its makes no difference to me.   I will still play marines/chaos.  I just want them to do the same to the xenos codexs as Eldar,tau and nidzilla lists are to good at the moment.

As stated by Yakface

"The simple truth is that less options in an army list means less chances for abuse. Anyone is free to disagree with that basic premise but I firmly believe it to be trueI

 

I actually find myself in total agreement with Yak on this. My how things have changed.  Judgement day must be near or something.  Me actualy agreeing 100% on something with Yak.  Get my medication.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 6:10 AM

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 08/14/2007 6:01 AM

I never understood why people allow new rules to raise their blood pressure.  The only sense I can make out of it is that they are tournament players only? 

You really haven't been paying any attention, have you?  Tournament players love, I mean absolutey love this new codex, assuming they didn't already have a well painted and converted IW army.  Double DP, 9 oblit or 3 vindy armies bulked out with cheap termies, raptors, and enough marines to summon the cheap greater daemon will make for a powerful, flexible list.

It's the lose of rules to match background, the loss of legion specific lists, the complete and unneccesary change in daemons, and a host of other problems.

HBMC has been saying this for days, but people complain about armies for reason other than power!  We really do!  This codex has killed builds, like daemonbomb (which was a ton of fun to play with, btw.), like Alpha Legion, like a Night Lord biker horde, etc.

Don't feel bad for tournament players.  Feel bad for guys with expensively converted armies that now "count as" a generic unit. 

Then keep playing the old dex?  Or make up whatever you thinks fitting with the fluff?  As I stated before, the only reason I care about rules is how it will effect new model releases.  When I play a tournament, meh to how a power list plays...we all go mainly to see other painted armies and meet new players. 

I would state it's extremely early to decide how competitive this list will be in tournaments.  Very early ^^.

Thanks for this H. I have to disagree with you quite strongly on one thing (not "I'll send you my faeces through the mail" strong, but "you fool!" strength) I know that Gav gets a lot of abuse over his rules, but as a non-player I don't really give a toss about rules. What I do hate about Gav (even more than Graham McNiel, and almost as much C S Goto) is his amatuer, childlike scribblings that BL has the cheek to call literature. It sucks, so much suck. I'm surprised to have found someone (outside the BL forums) that likes it. ALso, there's some repeated spelling mistakes in your post, if that hasn't been mentioned yet. 8/10.

Options for character customization is fun, I don't see why they had to get rid of it. Don't claim it has anything to do with game balance when we've got monsters like Abaddon in the same list.
A Chaos Lord with +1S or +1W by comparison is hardly game-breaking.
Yes, the old system was abusable, but why does that mean we have to go from that to no options at all?

Or maybe all those options were taking up too much space, pages that needed to be devoted to printing troops statlines twice or the color scheme of the "Brothers of Emo" or some other regenade chapter no one will ever play.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 1:47 AM

I'm starting to think that my review/deconstruction might actually be bang on the money.

H,

I'm sure you thought that before you even posted it.  And even though your review, tainted as it was by your consistent and negative outlook on the company, probably was comprehensive and often correct, it still misses the point of the 4.5 (as it were).  GW is building a response to the powergamer "revolution" that Dakka itself championed just a while back, with pride I might add.

When the 2002 edition was released, we worked through a very different argument.  Why was there so much room for abuse?  My argument (over and over) was that the push towards tourney lists and the emphasis of the powergamer was going to be a deathknell to the "catch-all" randomness of the army lists.  I argued, from a fluff and fun perspective, that the huge variety within the Codex was a boon, *if* you could play for fun and not merely min-max lists.  In a perfect world, I agree, GW could perfectly balance such a huge variety of bits and bobs.  But there is no fiscal incentive for them to do so.  In the past, they pushed that burden onto their players, and over time the players became less and less willing to police themselves.  They merely derided GW for not doing so. 

And here we are.  GW is self-policing.  I even agree with you that it's depressing to see the sameness among the lists, but as JJ said at GD (whether you agree or not), the lists they saw at tourneys were the same things as well.  My problem is: why respond to the tourneys?  Because they were vocal, through sites just like this.

This would be a bigger deal for me without Apocalypse around the corner, which will hopefully loosen up the sphincters of Rules Only as Written gamers.  In short, I agree with your postulation, except with the caveat that the players are reaping what they have sown.

As for me, as long as the new art is good and the models are sharp (and they are), I'm happy.  I'm not married to the ROAW philosophy.  And I have the longer view that also realizes that some of those lists people are lamenting losing were also complained about just as vociferously 5 years ago, and didn't exist before them.  It's a dynamic environment.

Semper Gumby,

Chuck

Glad to see you joining in Chuck.

I must say however that I'm not blind to what GW is doing, and I know Jervis' opinions on tournaments and the styles of lists (he's been making comments about this for years, and for as long as I've been reading the stuff he writes, like a decade ago in White Dwarf, back when the magazine still had content). I know what and why they're doing what they're doing - I just hate it, and will say as much.

What Brother Kyoto said about me is correct - I actually do want GW to do well and make this into an excellent game. Removing options and bland-a-fying everything so everyone's on an equal footing in the tournament scene is not how I envisioned it though.

BYE

Oh, I just wanted to say I told you (the royal "you", not the actual YOU, HBMC) so!

I prefer the older lists and variety myself. I don't like the vanilla direction either, but I understand it, and why GW is leaning that way. My army of choice (the only one that consistently interests me) is the 13th Company, and you know they are GONE with the next SW Codex. But I'll simply find a way to keep playing them.

I've long thought that flavor is what made GW special...removing that for tourney purposes is a mistake, because there are better rulesets out there. Focus on the crazy madness and great models. Like I said, I hold out hope for Apocalypse. A little free-wheeling energy is what the game needs to work.

Reading comprehension for the win.  I was showing logical fallacies in his argument.  How did that become defense of the chaos book?  And I like how no one addressed my argument. 

HBMC said:

"There are no Death Guard Daemon Princes, Emperor's Children Sorcerers or Berzerker Bikers. There are Daemon Princes with the Mark of Nurgle, Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh and Bikes with the Mark of Khorne."

I don't see why that is a problem.  It's the same thing I said about warp scream just being +1 initiative.  Instead of a billion words about a death guard daemon prince, you give him the mark of nurgle.  It is essentially the same thing.  Ruleswise they are essentially equivalent.  Almost everyone I talk to agrees, for instance, that warp scream being +1 initiative is a cleaner way of doing warp scream.  Why does there have to be a big fat special section only on Nurgle?  Especially since said big fat section referred to chaos units in the main portion anyways.  

People are jumping up and down about how it's boring, and you can't do this and that.  Actually, you still can.  You guys would have a legitimate argument if death guard, emperor's children, etc. weren't in the codex.  But they are!  Plus, it sounds like to me no matter what GW did you guys would be complaining.  If they left special rules for iron warriors and what not in, you really think people wouldn't argue that GW was slowed and didn't fix the problems of the old codex? 

Are the possessed different and unique?  Yes.  Are they viable?  No.  So they get ignored in the full context of the codex. 

You guys want different and unique and a billion special rules for each legion.  Unfortunately, it would be impossible to balance.  If something is unviable, it gets ignored.  With extra armies, would making everything viable even be possible?

Have you guys even thought about why things like seer council, alaitoc, and sam haim went away?  Essentially they were separate rules that ignored the force org chart, and allowed abuse.  18 Vipers?  100 unkillable warlocks and a farseer?  You claim you want interesting and fluffy, but all anyone ever did with those lists was max out on what could be abused.  The posts here decrying the codex as bland seem to want to return to those days. 

But that is what everyone has been pushing. Like was stated earlier people wouldn't self police. You would constantly hear cries of "it is in the list, I am using it!". This was both in tournament and friendly play. GW stated over and over how they had made "fun" lists that have a wide variety of options, and they were loath to make pure tournament lists for this reason. The only way around it was to house rule things, but this would have to be agreed upon by everyone, and often they would not. So the screams and cries that GW should do something to remedy this did not go unheard. There is a change in the wind to balance things out more across the board. Everyone had to be able to see this coming, we pushed for it.

I agree with Yak on a lot of this, and only because of what has become of the game. In this area people only play with who they know. If they play at all. People aren't having "fun" playing. Will the new lists change this? I hope so.

I am not going to say much about BA, as I am still undecided about that dex, and it is a "test". But the DA codex in a vacuum, is a really damn good dex. Almost every option competes with every other option. The only musts havs are what you need to fulfill your criteria for the list like anti tank and assault troops, and there are various competing choices for this. I have seen more styles of DA army on the board than I have ever seen with past lists. I don't have the same opinion of the BA dex. There are some obviously good choices in the dex.

People make their own flavor in the game. It is as "bland" as you choose to make it. So I don't really see an issue with the new codex. It does hurt that certain army lists are now wiped away, but as usual we will change and adapt to it. It sucks, but life goes on.

The Chaos dex does represent what it is suppose to, corrupt marines. To say it is any less representative of this fact is kind of silly. Marks, oblits, cult marines, daemons, princes, possession... all of this represents Chaos. I don't see how it therefore cannot be representative of the chaos forces. It just isn't the "same" as before.

The proof is going to be whether Chaos and DA are somewhat evenly matched. Until games are played we aren't going to see how good or bad this list really is, and a lot of you are making presumptions before this army even hits the tabletop. In the past this has usually proven to be wrong. Only time will tell.

No one addressed this when I posted it.  It was about Nurgle "losing" true grit:

You missed the point of my argument.  Why is a special rule that does exactly the same thing as an extra close combat weapon more interesting?  Why is something like warp scream better and less bland than +1 initiative?  When you break it down, isn't it essentially the same thing written in a more concise and cleaner form?  Why are special rules that do nothing except confuse people superior to a simpler way of saying the exact same thing? 

Looks like my Chaos marines are going to end up in the same place as when Jervis last had a controlling hand in writing their rules, gathering dust waiting for a decent codex to be written. I have at hand a few hundred extra dollars that I was going to spend on getting new models for my chaos army if the codex was good. After reading that review and adding other things that I've heard into the mix, I think I'll just get into FOW, instead and let 40k die on the vine.

I am just happy I can use my horrors and my screamers again!

Posted By scuddman on 08/14/2007 7:38 AM

Why is something like warp scream better and less bland than +1 initiative?  When you break it down, isn't it essentially the same thing written in a more concise and cleaner form?

I'd take warp scream over +1 initiative in a heartbeat.  The ability to charge stealers with demonettes / noise marines and then furious charge my speed lord in there - and therefore go BEFORE the stealers - is obviously impossible without warp scream, and likewise in the new codex.  Warp scream affects the enemy and +1 initiative is just that, a boost to one models initiative characteristic.  Look to lash if you need to see how intense powers that affect the enemy are when taken to extremes.

Also, "warp scream" is waaaaaaaay more unique and cool sounding than "+1 initiative."  Hard to argue otherwise

- Salvage

True grit doesn't do the same thing as an additional close combat weapon (2 ccw gives more attacks on the charge and effectively lowers the range for shooting as most pistols have a 12" range) and Warp scream was different to +1 initiative (especially if you were fighting Orks and Necrons with Power fists).

BTW: Does this mean that Nurgle have regained their Havoc heavy weapon squads?

I personally feel that the pendulum has swung too far (again). Take Seer councils as an example, 100 strong seer councils were bent I agree, however would it not have been just as easy to reduce the maximum number of models as 10 man seer councils weren?t that bad (re-rollable invulnerable saves aside).

If Codex SM is used as the baseline for CSM then only the Iron warriors army list was broken all the other lists merely needed tweaking and much of CSM's problems could have been cured by upping the minimum necessary troops choices for army lists (Three @ 1,500 points +, for all Codices IMO).

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 08/14/2007 6:26 AM

Then keep playing the old dex?  Or make up whatever you thinks fitting with the fluff?  As I stated before, the only reason I care about rules is how it will effect new model releases.  When I play a tournament, meh to how a power list plays...we all go mainly to see other painted armies and meet new players. 

I would state it's extremely early to decide how competitive this list will be in tournaments.  Very early ^^.

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I honestly think this is going to be the first codex that will stay in use after the new one hits, at least in friendly play.  I, for one, would allow anybody that wanted to use it to keep using it. 

And my point about competetivness wasn't to prove that it's a strong codex, but that there's enough potential to be strong that people aren't worried solely about a loss of power.

I love the way you approach tournies, I do that sometimes, but don't forget that the new lists are designed for tournament play, and that a lot of folks play to play, and play to win. 

Chaos was one of the large deciding factors in a lot of people dumping 40k around here, so I don't see the old codex being used around here at all. Only if the people perceive that the new dex is better to play against will even the new one make a showing.

You really have two groups. The gamers that have a gentleman's agreement on what forces and units are played. This is usually tempered by what is generally perceived as power lists. Then the group that pushes the list to the extreme in a very competitive environment. Certain army lists don't even make a showing in this group.

So I don't think they are necessarily aimed only at competitive play. One of the stated desires of GW was that you could play the game anywhere without having agreements or house rules. Right now you can't exactly do that, because of the two very distinct camps. If two competitive or friendly gamers play, all is well, but if someone brings their A game, and someone else their B game, it becomes a sour point. Which is why I don't see a lot of people playing outside their group unless they know the environment.

After IW hit big and people started showing with that list all the time, they couldn't even find a game to play unless they went up against other IW players. People were tired of the power of the list, so you just as well not even bring IW or people would avoid playing you.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

Posted By Blackmoor on 08/14/2007 7:57 AM
I am just happy I can use my horrors and my screamers again!

I presume you mean by bundling them into a single compact mass and throwing that mass at your opponents head until they cease to be able to play the game and must withdraw, giving you the win. Because thier use sure ain't worth it on the table.

An Exercise in Futility
?OR?
H.B.M.C.?s review of Codex: Chaos Space Marines

Not to bust your chops half-bro, but this could mean that you think
the codex is not very good, or your review...

True grit was supposed to represent that you had a bolter in one hand and a close combat weapon in the other.  It essentially gave you the ability to use the bolter with the drawback that you didn't get a charge bonus. 

So much easier to represent that you could use both a bolter and two hand weapons by giving all 3 to a marine.  Less confusion, less learning about special rules, still essentially the same.  It's not EXACTLY the same...I didn't say it was exactly the same.  However, why have a special rule when you can represent it with the current rules? 

Ditto with warp scream vs. +1 initiative.  It's not exactly the same, but it's ESSENTIALLY the same.  The only time it's different is in a few cases...and helps to illustrate why I didn't like the warp scream special rule.  It's like a loophole to keep your powerfist from going last against orcs.  It's a side effect of a special rule that shafts orcs.  It's dumb. 

This is opinion here:  Iron warriors was the most obvious, but it was not the only broken list.  Very few people played a shooty nightlords list, but 3+ cover saves are slowed...and very powerful.

So speaks someone who doesn't own thousands of dollars' worth of daemons.

Now, where'd I leave my pitchfork....

Posted By Janthkin on 08/14/2007 9:04 AM

So while some folks clearly feel the need to fetch their pitchforks and torches out to storm the GW castle. . .I for one have long been waiting for this day!

So speaks someone who doesn't own thousands of dollars' worth of daemons.

Now, where'd I leave my pitchfork....

Know how you feel, and I only own hundreds of dollars of daemons.

which can still be used as either generic, or wait until the daemon codex comes out. If at that time it is still bad...well, I will get out my pitchfork Or maybe I will just bring a bag of zoats and fimir to throw.

I'm with you on this on H.B.M.C. I just recently bought (4 months ago) a chaos army off of Ebay, not having a clue about the new direction the Chaos codex was going in. I've got about 30 Deamonettes, 10 Plaguebearers, 10 Bloodletters, and a bloodthirster staring back at me now. I think I need to model them giving me the finger.... I've also got about 30 or 40 regular CSMs that I'd give to my daughter to play with if they weren't a choking hazard.

It simply isn't fun to play Chaos anymore. At least, not with this piece of crap codex.

GW Rules and Codex Design...Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory.

Posted By Therion- on 08/14/2007 6:02 AM
Personally I'm very disappointed that the daemons turned out like this and GW may yet turn this daemon debacle into a complete disaster if the upcoming Daemon Codex doesn't include LaTD but is indeed simply some poor version of the Warhammer Fantasy Daemon Legions. I'm not sure this bothers everyone as much as it does me because a lot of people refused to use daemons even in their previous incarnations, and almost noone plays LaTD. I'm just sad to see so much squandered potential.

I sure hope I'm wrong, but when you add up what scant rumors we have about the second codex, I think it points to it being daemon-only.  And that would be a huge wasted opportunity.  Heck, they wasted an opportunity by keeping this codex CSM-only.  Some mutants or cultists might have created more differentiation from loyalists, at least.

But as we know, daemons sell just because people think they're cool!  And GW hasn't recorded a single dollar of sales for LatD-specific products in years.  So the decision is "obvious"...  <sarcasm off>

I completely agree. I like how the trend is changing and it would now seem that Daemon Hunters just got a little mightier vs. chaos.

Posted By efarrer on 08/14/2007 8:39 AM

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

I think so.  The thread with the link got closed though.  I think blackshirted Warseer gangs are going to people's houses and searching for any who dare critique the new codex.

I don't hate the new book, but it's a slap in the face to veteran gamers, and we're certainly allowed a few weeks to kvetch about it.

Am I the only one who prefers Dakka's policy of keeping closed threads around, rather than deleting them?

Yes, lovely mixed units of daemonettes, Fiends of Slaanesh, and Daemonette cavalry. Maybe I'll toss some nurglings in there, and possibly the odd blue and pink horrors. All those mixed base sizes won't cause any issues at all, of course.....

No. Just, no.

They vape entire threads?

Unless it's a direct attack on them, that's just weird.

I think there's good and bad in the codex. Most of the bad stuff involves units with no clear purpose and cutesy random rolls. That has Gav's fingerprints all over it. The blandness is thanks to Jervis, who has always preferred stripped-down rules. It's funny how you can see the designer's personality and tastes come through so clearly.

It's too bad they laid some real stinkers in among the good stuff they did. I think the list wouldn't seem so bland if dreads, possessed, bikes, defilers, generic daemons etc. all seemed like more viable choices.

Posted By malfred on 08/14/2007 9:41 AM
They vape entire threads?

Unless it's a direct attack on them, that's just weird.

Well, in one of them I was defending HBMC's deconstruction, and Dakka as a whole.  I pointed out that while constant screaming cynicism gets old sometimes, Warseers howler monkey policy of screaming "cheese" or "hater" at anybody who either enjoys playing to win, or who has a complaint about GW.

It's a great board with plenty of activity, they just really drank the GW Kool Aid, and close down threads that get even slightly nasty.

Unlike Dakka, where the average thread feels like the Tupac/Biggie feud.

Posted By gorgon on 08/14/2007 9:41 AM
I think there's good and bad in the codex. Most of the bad stuff involves units with no clear purpose and cutesy random rolls. That has Gav's fingerprints all over it. The blandness is thanks to Jervis, who has always preferred stripped-down rules. It's funny how you can see the designer's personality and tastes come through so clearly.

It's too bad they laid some real stinkers in among the good stuff they did. I think the list wouldn't seem so bland if dreads, possessed, bikes, defilers, generic daemons etc. all seemed like more viable choices.

Actually I see Jervis fingerprints on the possessed table. It's the same garbage that I hated in the 3.0 codex.

Many of the things about the new list I hate are the things I hated about the 3.0 codex. No flavour encouraging mixed marking, almost no choice. It sounds like this book may have taken it a step further though making some choices so bad that it will be like the current High elf fantasy book (as well as Dark Angels and Blood Angels) where you have a multitude of choices and only one or two viable armies.

No thanks.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:39 AM

Posted By efarrer on 08/14/2007 8:39 AM

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

I think so.  The thread with the link got closed though.  I think blackshirted Warseer gangs are going to people's houses and searching for any who dare critique the new codex.

Am I the only one who prefers Dakka's policy of keeping closed threads around, rather than deleting them?

"Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference.  The Thought Police would get him just the same.  He had committed— would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper— the essential crime that contained all others in itself.  Thoughtcrime, they called it."

Every time something new comes out or gets redone weather it's 40K or dungeons & dragons or everquest, people complain. Now, I don't personally play Chaos but I did at one point. I ditched em long ago because to me those cool looking night lords I was painting were really just marines with flappy wings on their heads. I already had a marine army, why did I want another? Chaos marines were just marines then, and they're just marines now. stats, armor, whatever. I'd prefer something balanced than something that's not, so if that means turning everything into vanilla, then so be it. Don't forget Vanilla is still good if you put a lot of chocolate syrup on top.

I really think they're just trying to take the game in 2 directions. You have the "standard" game that slowly becomes balanced across the board and meant for faster games and/or tournament play. Then you have Apocalypse for all the people who wanna just do their own thing. I'll be investing in the later

Yeah, despite Gav being the author it's pretty much an updated Jervis 3.0 codex.
Some things that were changed in the 3.5 codex then changed back-

Seperate Lord/Daemon prince
Seperate Chosen/Terminators
Chosen only have infiltrate
Fire Frenzy table
Random Possessed abilities
No cult terminators/bikes, ect.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:48 AM
Well, in one of them I was defending HBMC's deconstruction, and Dakka as a whole.  I pointed out that while constant screaming cynicism gets old sometimes, Warseers howler monkey policy of screaming "cheese" or "hater" at anybody who either enjoys playing to win, or who has a complaint about GW.

It's a great board with plenty of activity, they just really drank the GW Kool Aid, and close down threads that get even slightly nasty.

Unlike Dakka, where the average thread feels like the Tupac/Biggie feud.

Nah. I don't think it's that polite here.

But seriously, dissent is not welcome there and I think it has to do with the sheer numbers. I miss the original portent (pre forums) but if warseer closed tomoorow I don't think I'd miss it. The noise to signal ration is way too high there, and legit concerns are shouted down hard. I think that it gets worse when something contraversial comes up, such as this book. Dakka is a more elitist board and is not always newbie (player)  friendly, but there are so many vet players here that I think most people who post here have gotten sick of the koolaid and want something more nurishing (or alcholic). Seen it before and it don't impress much. Warseer is filled with people who haven't seen two or more editions. The average here seems to be three.

~Sigh~

I guess I HAVE to start a "Claws of Lorek" army now.  Dammit.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/14/2007 9:54 AM

"Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference.  The Thought Police would get him just the same.  He had committed— would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper— the essential crime that contained all others in itself.  Thoughtcrime, they called it."

Somebody get that man a cigar!

Posted By Necros on 08/14/2007 9:57 AM
Every time something new comes out or gets redone weather it's 40K or dungeons & dragons or everquest, people complain. Now, I don't personally play Chaos but I did at one point. I ditched em long ago because to me those cool looking night lords I was painting were really just marines with flappy wings on their heads. I already had a marine army, why did I want another? Chaos marines were just marines then, and they're just marines now. stats, armor, whatever. I'd prefer something balanced than something that's not, so if that means turning everything into vanilla, then so be it. Don't forget Vanilla is still good if you put a lot of chocolate syrup on top.

I really think they're just trying to take the game in 2 directions. You have the "standard" game that slowly becomes balanced across the board and meant for faster games and/or tournament play. Then you have Apocalypse for all the people who wanna just do their own thing. I'll be investing in the later

But we aren't seeing balance. The Chaos Codex isn't balanced, some choices are clearly better than others. OK nothing is Siren bad, but still it's pretty lame.

Jervis doesn't much care about writing balanced rules anyway, he just goes with what he feels is right, like his no 3+/5+ rule.

We're losing tons of character for little gain in balance. If GW were to actually care about balance and get in people who knew what they were doing to write the rules, it might be more acceptable.

I'll add my name to the list of those thanking you for the review, H.B.M.C.  Very well written, and a few spots (such as the image of Space Marines attacking Castle Wolfenstein) had my wife, my son and I laughing out loud.

One of the things I find very interesting is that the Codex is coming out at a time when the BL Horus Heresy novels are in full swing.  5 books, so far, detailing the most pivotal time (so far) in the history of the Imperium, when half the original Space Marine Legions turned traitor, and rebelled against the Emperor.  When the true knowledge of Chaos, and it's corrupting (not random, sorry, nothing here about randomness) nature became known to all.  When a good portion of the storyline for the 40K universe was created.

And now, apparently, it's been shunted aside in the new Codex, to make way for Huron Blackeye and his Red Legion/formerly Astral Claws/formerly Tiger Claws (at least, I think it was Tiger Claws... anyone still have the original spread of the Badab War, from the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium.  Red Book?)

Speaking of which, I can't recall the name of the "new" renegades with the Black/tiger stripe colors, but those were the original colors of Huron's chapter, way back when.  How history repeats itself, albeit in a twisted fashion...

As for those talking about the greatness of the sameness that is Codex: Space Marines With Spikes, I'd like to add a few thoughts/comments:

For Age of Egos, who asked: "As a sidenote, perhaps a moment of curiousity, do rules really affect people this deeply, or is this internet drama?"

  Well, for me, they definitely did.  I play this game as a hobby... but I have other highly enjoyable hobbies as well.  And when something comes along that does its very best to suck the life out of my pleasure at playing, then I'll ignore it.  Like other people have said, if you don't like it, just play with your old Codex.  And I will.

As a sidenote, this just cost GW the $275.00 that is the new Chaos Marine Boxed Army, that I had been planning to buy in 11 days, when it was available in Canada.  It also cost them a $150.00 mail order my family was planning on making today for some bits, etc.  And my overall disgust with the blandness of the crap they're pushing out to make the game "playable" for Tourney folks when I've attended only one tourney, and most of the players I know are not that interested in Tournament play, has cost them another $350.00 I was planning on spending on a Warhammer Chaos Fantasy Army.  Instead, I'm going to be taking another look at Warmachine/Hordes, and I'm ordering the Warlord rules for something to look at.

To Ozymandias, who spake thus: "People only want to be slightly Chaotic.  4 Heavy support choices and Siren Prince are fluffy, but random possessed?... Whoa, there, that's too Chaotic for me."

Well, done, what an argument to support the new Codex.  Here's a grand idea, then, that I'm sure you'll like... From now on, when buying Devastator squads for Dark Angels (or any marines, heck, I'm not going to spoil the fun for them, too), you pay a specific points cost per "Heavy Marine," say, an extra 20 points, then roll on the following table to see what weapon you get:

1.) Autocannon  2.) Missile Launcher with Frag Missiles  3.) Heavy Bolter   4.) Missile Launcher with Krak Missiles  5.) Heavy Plasma Gun   6.) Lascannon

Oh, and remember, you can't roll to see what you get until you've set them up.  Fun, hey?   Like people are pointing out, ad nauseum, Chaos does not mean total randomness.  Have any of you read the fluff? the stories?  Chaos Marines are not "flip a coin to see what we do today" kind of people.  They plan, they plot, they are the rot that undermines the Imperium.  The only randomness I see attached to them is that the Imperium never really knows when they're going to strike next.  How does that equate to "roll d6 to see what kind of head you're wearing today?"

Final point on that, even if GW wanted to keep the randomness of the Possessed in the Codex, there are better ways to do it.  Why not make the table of mutations into stat changes? Demonic Strength: +1 Strength; Demonic Reflexes: +1 Initiative, etc.  Then you can place your Possessed with the knowledge that whatever they get may not put them too out of place for your plans... even if your plans are totally random!

To Scuddman, who really said far too many things I wanted to comment on, but will reply to these: "Oh, I see, what you really meant to say was Chaotic and overpowered.  Or you want consistency, which is hardly "chaotic" or random."

Sigh... ok, let's try this again, class, shall we?  Chaos, in the world of Games Workshop, is the corruption of mankind.  The gods of Chaos seek nothing else but that.  Mutations are an outward sign of that corruption.  The Chaos Marines plan carefully to destroy the Imperium; they don't wake up every day and roll dice or flip coins to see what they're going to do!  Please, try to remember this point; it could save your life someday! (or at least allow you an armor save) 

Scuddman: "The tiny, 3 columned text for the Wargear section was only fun for the power gamers. I don't think you understand the first idea of game balance or game design if you believe that a billion options is good for a game. It might be fun for YOU, but it isn't fun to the other person on the other side of the board. "

Yup, that's me, I admit it, I'm a power gamer who loved that text.  Never once played more than 3 oblits with my Iron Warriors (heck, I play a Raptor Squad with my IW force, just for kicks), never played a Siren Prince, in fact I stayed clear of the more abusive things in the Chaos Codex, but apparently I'm a power gamer because I used some of that text. 

In fact, looking through the Daemonic Gifts section of Chaos 3.5, I see now that there's only 2 I never tried: Daemon Armour and Daemonic Venom.  Everything else, I played with to see what it could do.  And kept trying it, because I wanted to.  My Daemon Prince for my Dark Lords (my Black Legion) had Daemonic Speed (Spider like lower torso, with 4 long taloned limbs)... might not be that effective, but I had fun modelling him.  So despite what you think, Scuddman, some of used the gifts, et. al., for fun and for modelling purposes.  Sorry to shoot down your world view like that, but Life happens at the funniest times...

One final Scuddman point: "Okay, stupid talk about logic aside, let me talk about the variety of the codex. Yes, there are a lot less options for sergeants and the like. But take an army like Thousand sons, where their demons were unviable and all their basic troops were rubric. THere are now a LOT more options in terms of viable units than there were before. Tzeentch havocs, tzeentch raptors, tzeentch chosen with infiltrate, etc. On top of that, if you just want to take rubric marines that is still viable too. In my eyes, the legions of Tzeentch became a lot more viable, gained a lot more options, but had to trade a lot of their confusing special rules for them. Is that bad? I don't think so. A more balanced army with a lot more variety in units but a lot less silly upgrades? "

While this may be nice for those that play a generic brand of Chaos, for a person playing a true Thousand Sons force, using the fluff as written for his background, his army is essentially gone.  I think that's the thing that irks many Chaos players.  I own an Emperor's Children army, as well as Death Guard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Dark Lords (Black Legion) and a LatD force... easily over 20,000 points of Chaos.  And I find I have no interest in going back and snapping limbs off, or doing yet another reorg (hmm... GW: the Dilberts of the TTG universe? Reorg! Reorg!) because GW chose to leave out the legion specific rules for my forces.  I will still play Chaos, but it will be old book, non abusive Chaos.  As for the "silly" upgrades... what? They're silly because you say so?  I happened to like a lot of them... apparently in my world, my opinion counts more than yours does, and if I wanted a more balanced army with a lot more unit variety, I'd stick to Black Legion, thank you very much...

Yakface: The simple truth is that less options in an army list means less chances for abuse. Anyone is free to disagree with that basic premise but I firmly believe it to be true.

When Jervis said they will be moving the codices towards more of a balanced tournament 1,500 point focus and leave more of the fun stuff to supplements (like Apocalypse) they clearly meant it, and I for one am very, very, very, very, very, very pleased.

To some extent, I agree with the less options = less abuse statement.  The thing that annoys me is that it's damming every player with the same brush (to totally brutalize a metaphor).  What they are now apparently saying is that Tourney players are the way we're going now, and screw you if you just happen to be a non-tourney player.  Why couldn't they just have the options in the Codex, in a section entitled, oh, I dunno, Daemonic Options, and then left them out of the Tournament Legal lists?  That way you still leave those of us that don't do the Tourney circuit a bone or two to chew, but keep the temptations away from the Tournament Builds.   And as an aside, if the players you're playing with at home are STILL using abusive lists, even in a fun environment, maybe it's time to have a little talk with them? Or just boycott them until they get their act together?

The fun stuff like Apocalypse... right.  I'm assuming Apocalypse is going to bring back my Death Guard rules to me?  They may have been slow, they may not have been incredibly effective, but dammit, they were mine!  And now... now, they're just the Elmo Legion with Nurgle marks.  woo hoo. I shall try to contain my excitement.

Another thing strikes me funny about the hype surrounding Apocalypse.  I've heard mention from a lot of people on different forums about how it's going to allow you to play with all your minis!  Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you already do that if you really want to?  Since when did GW have to officially sanction it?  And yes, I know that apparently there is more to Apocalypse than just that (like mega deals in an attempt to convice shareholders that the company is righting itself), but that thought struck me funny... "Huzzah! GW says we can use ALL our minis, now, Bubba!"  8)

And, finally, dienekes96: When the 2002 edition was released, we worked through a very different argument. Why was there so much room for abuse? My argument (over and over) was that the push towards tourney lists and the emphasis of the powergamer was going to be a deathknell to the "catch-all" randomness of the army lists. I argued, from a fluff and fun perspective, that the huge variety within the Codex was a boon, *if* you could play for fun and not merely min-max lists. In a perfect world, I agree, GW could perfectly balance such a huge variety of bits and bobs. But there is no fiscal incentive for them to do so. In the past, they pushed that burden onto their players, and over time the players became less and less willing to police themselves. They merely derided GW for not doing so.

And here we are. GW is self-policing. I even agree with you that it's depressing to see the sameness among the lists, but as JJ said at GD (whether you agree or not), the lists they saw at tourneys were the same things as well. My problem is: why respond to the tourneys? Because they were vocal, through sites just like this.

This would be a bigger deal for me without Apocalypse around the corner, which will hopefully loosen up the sphincters of Rules Only as Written gamers. In short, I agree with your postulation, except with the caveat that the players are reaping what they have sown.

I have to agree with most of this, sadly.  Except I still think it would have been easy enough for them to make some Non-Tourney options for the Codex that still would allow for some fun/weird/funny builds.  But that would have taken away from planning the new box set deals for Apocalypse, I guess... or taken away from the lunchtime games of 40K.  And if the players in your group are taking the game so seriously that they have to abuse the lists in even fun games (a la Toreador's group/gaming environment), maybe it's time to set everyone down for a hard talk about what's going to be acceptable/unacceptable.  And if they still insist on the "it's in the Codex" so I'm gonna use it argument, don't play them until they tone it down.  Or make them eat a Typhus model.  Or something... but don't let them continue to destroy the game for the rest of us.

Final note... Apocalypse is around the corner.  Actually, from reading GW's finances, reading posts here and elsewhere about the way their games are going, and the continuing work at creating Blandhammer 40K, I'd say the Apocalypse is already here. 

Thanks for listening,

Vilegrimm

Posted By Iorek on 08/14/2007 10:05 AM
~Sigh~

I guess I HAVE to start a "Claws of Lorek" army now.  Dammit.

You might want to use this for the rules...  

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 8:37 AM
Chaos was one of the large deciding factors in a lot of people dumping 40k around here, so I don't see the old codex being used around here at all.

I'm just curious... Where is "here" - GW HQ?

Posted By Delephont on 08/14/2007 2:32 AM

It is soul destroying to spend time and effort creating and army only to have the company that sold said army to you, to abandon you and crap over your efforts.

I wholeheartedly agree. That really was the final nail in the coffin for me a few years ago with WH Fantasy. I played mostly Chaos and Undead, although I had just about all the other armies as well. I read the Chaos rulebook then decided which models I was going to have in my army. This was the version that allowed you to have Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres, Warriors, Beastmen, etc., in your army before they came out with the Chaos rulebook that made you have a Character and his personal retinue. Anyway, I bought the figures for my army, converted and painted them, and this was the army that I played frequently with. Then they come out with the Retinue rulebook. My army was still viable, but I had to adjust some things a bit. Then they come out with yet another Chaos rulebook that seperated everything into mortal, beastmen, and demon armies. Okay, well, my army was made up of half mortals and half beastmen, so I either had to make up two new armies or sell one and go with the other. I ended up getting rid of the mortals and going with the Beastmen, which meant more painting and converting, then they turn around and come out with a new edition of Warhammer that (6th edition, I believe) that made all my rulebooks and armies incompatible with it. So I said screw it, and went with 40K.

I got into 40k when it was the 3rd edition. I chose Chaos to start with. I started with an undivided legion, but then when the next Chaos Codex came out (the one that just got replaced with this apparent piece of crap) I chose to start a Khornate army. I heavily converted this army. All my berserkers had axes instead of swords. I combined Berserker bodies with Bloodletter and Fleshhound parts to make a unit of Khorne possessed. I had characters in Khornate Terminator armor, riding Juggernauts, equipped with wings, etc. I converted the Demon Prince model to have a massive Glave. I spent at least $100 converting a Dreadnought to have all sorts of skulls, spikes, Khornate icons, a Bloodthirster's axe in one hand and its whip in another, etc. My Land Raider was converted in a similar fashion. This was my most extensive conversion and painting project to date. I did all this because the rules fit the fluff.

Under this new rulebook, I wouldn't even think about going to all that trouble. Why? Because the models would be World Eaters/Khorne Berserkers in name only. And that's what I think some people posting here don't truly understand. Sure, I could play 40k with some red painted models that are called Berserkers on the package, but they aren't really true berserkers like they were in the last codex. What's the point of going through the trouble of modeling all your models with axes to go along with the rules/fluff when now there is really no benefit of them having axes over a chainsword? Is there any mention of Berserkers having the Khornate axes in this new codex? And some will say that the Demon Prince with the Glave is still viable, it just has to treat the Glave as a normal weapon. But that's not the point. If I just wanted a normal weapon, I would have just left the Demon Prince with the sword it came with. I modeled the Glave on the model because I wanted it to have the Glave. Now, all that time converting my army to have weapon choices that were allowed by the rules is just wasted. 

Someone mentioned something about Tzeentch sorcerors having to remove their powerfists because they are no longer allowed to have them now. Now this is a real pain in the you know what for all those that require WYSIWYG. That means you have to either buy a new model(s) without a powerfist or break off the PF from the model and replace it with a new arm with a force weapon, thus requiring one to mess up the paint job on the old model and such. This is just nonsense.

Same thing with the Obliterators going from T5 (Oh, we made a mistake) to T4(5). I bought the Oblits because they were T5 originally. I wouldn't have bought them if they were T4(5) in the first printing of the codex because 70 pts wasn't worth spending on 1 model that could be killed with Str 8 and 9 wpns. Oblits were viable because there isn't that many S10 weapons floating around. Now the Oblits are no longer viable. And plus, now they have less weapons and cost more? Ridiculous. So again, money wasted on useless models because GW decides to change the rules. I don't know about everyone else, but I simply don't have the money to keep buying rulebook after rulebook and having to change my army each time a new one comes out. I didn't get into this game to play in tournaments, but that seems what the focus of GW is about now: making rulebooks that make better tournaments instead of a better game. I got into this game because it used to be fun, before GW starting getting greedy and pulling crap like this. It's just not the same game anymore.

H.B.M.C. thank you for writing a very good review and I do love the wit you inserted into the review itself is worth the long read. I agree with many of the points you said and the way I see this there are basically three types of people who a) love the codex for the de-cusomization or b) hate the codex for ripping out the character and c) furious that x amount of dollars in models are worthless or unviable.

I fall into catagory C with a Lost and the Damned army that is nolonger legal in tournament play and had +50 models that were specifically converted as Nurgle mutants along with my 10 Furies that have no place now. I know many others who have Lost and the Damned armies and for one of the gamers, that was his only army and now $500 dollars of models are now unviable.

What I dont get about the chaos codex is while Arhiman was looking for the black library and apparently I guess found the instruction manual for his staff, and I guess he sent the PDF to the other sorcerers but its also funny how the renegade marines seemingly ditched their assault cannons, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, landspeeders, thunderhammers, and whirlwinds and I guess dropped them in the trash bin for some orks to loot.

‘Traitor Legions and Renegade Chapters’

Sounds like a really bad 60s pop group.

I'll throw my two cents in as well...

First off - HBMC Nice review - i can see you put a lot of time and effort into it. I may disagree with you, but I respect your efforts.

I'm gonna place myself cleanly in the Scuddman and Yakface camp. While I still haven't read it myself - I like the sound of the new codex.

I don't think there need to be rules simply for rules' sake. I like nice clean rules sets - with as few "special cases" as possible myself. Because - as YMDC shows - the moment special cases get involved, things start to get weird.

***
To me - most of the complaints about the new chaos codex can be divided into 3 groups. (These comments are not aimed at anyone in particular).

One - I lost my distinct demons.
True, but here is another question. I heard COUNTLESS complaints that one demon was better than the others (bloodletters anyone?). All sorts of people wanted the demons to be internally balanced. Because why should one "warp spawned creation" be radically better than others?

Well - you get what you ask for.... The Lesser demons are now internally consistent. Congrats...

Two - I lost "unit x", "option y", or "spiffy special power z"
Yes. And you didn't think it was going to happen because???
No GW Codex *ever* has been identical to it's predecessor. Every codex attempts to correct apparent problem with it's predecessor. Chaos was long seen by virtually everyone as one of the "heavy hitters" with a monstrous number of options that could combine synergistically to create some 1) terribly powerful, 2) terribily unfun to play against, and 3) just plain terrible lists. You had to know the hammer was coming...

Change happens. Especially in GW games. Suck it up and move on.

Three - I lost my Legion special rules.
Yep, you did. Even though* that* specific set of game mechanics to represent your faction only came into existence in the 3.5 codex. Even though you can build armies, that are for the most part, similar to your previous ones (minus some of the special rules/special weapons/etc you had previously). But, have the Legions suddenly ceased to exist in the 40k verse (like the squats)? No - they are still there.

Game Mechanics do NOT equal the sum existance of an army. An army is the miniatures, the fluff, the legends of army built in to the 40k universe, their colors, their victories and defeats... Any army should be more than the handful of rules that represent it on the tabletop. The loss of a handful of funky game mechanics that differentiated your army slightly from the REST of your faction is not enough to destroy it.

Towards the end of the 3rd edition, the Devs seemed to believe that every little bit of background and fluff required that the army have a special rule to represent it. Did the Alpha Legion's Infiltrate rule REALLY represent the nature of the Legion?

Yes - the Alpha Legion may be master spies and infiltrators; but that was on the 'macro' 40k scale. At the battlefield level with battle gear, the Alpha Legion probably shouldn't be any sneakier than ANYONE in power armor (ie not very - I hate power armored loyalist SM getting infiltrate too). And for thhe other Legions, the free aspiring champions for sacred number sized squads was a game mechanic - nothing more.

My buddy's Death Guard is still Death Guard - still following Papa Nurgle. Just 'cause he lost some truly artifical limitations (heavy weapon havocs), the free aspiring champs, and a couple special rules doesn't mean that his army is suddenly gone. Change ? Yes. Gone? Nope - when those plague marines march up the board, shrugging off bolter fire and chanting "Nur-gle! Nur-gle!" with every stomp of their rusting decayed armor, they look like Death Guard to me...

To those people who feel that they have lost too much - I'm sorry. I don't agree with you though.

While I agree with the majority of your review, I'd like to add a  couple of additional points/observations.

First, one small accuracy correction.  The terminator lord shown in the color section with the Purge is not a conversion of Lysander.  He's from the new plastic terminator lord kit.  He does have a similar walking/leaning pose, however.

I agree with all of the points re: the blandness of the codex.  It's disigenous to make claims (as some have) that the codex couldn't include legion specific options and remained balanced.  It's no less a possibility than the concept of balancing codex vs codex, army vs army.  There's no reason they could not have included a few more options that differentiate the chaos powers and balance them. 

But this gets to my big gripe.  I really dislike how very little of the rules actually reflect the established fluff.  There is SCORES of fluff on chaos out there, and the new rules look like a pale imitation of that fluff.

Second, I have a real issue with the amount and focus of the fluff in this book.  For many gamers, this codex may be the first time they are exposed to the chaos powers.  It should have had more fluff overall.  For many legion players that were not in the big five (Emeperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, 1000 Sons, Black legion), it would have been nice to see a little more recognition and throw them a bone.  Even if they don't specific rules, a showcase would be nice.  A little half page with the color scheme and notable history.  At least regular space marines got that.  First founding legions/chapters deserve a little more love.  Some fluff, maybe a few special rules (such as the traits for regular marines.  Not great, but better than being completely ignored).  For a great comparison, look at the amount of fluff, as well as the look and feel found within the fantasy chaos army books.  It's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

That said, I really did like the additional fluff on renegade legions.  it was a long time coming and it was good treatment.  I just wanted it IN ADDITION to the traitor legions fluff, not in place of it.

I liked the review's reference to Realms of Chaos.  Talk about a change in approach.  You had two Realms of Chaos books, each around 300 pages long.  That's 600 pages of books oozing with artwork, stories, background fluff, rules, army lists, etc.  Back in the day, the rulebooks were also the fluff books.  They were one and the same.  Now you have to buy some Black library books to go along with your chaos codex to get your fix.  And that just doesn't seem right.  I'm not knocking Black Libary- I own more Fluff and art books than ANYONE I know.  I just think more of that great background material deserves to be in the army book/codex.  I also think that the rules for how units, models, army lists, and game mechanics work should reflect the fluff better.  (Heck, I'd like to see armies of 10 Grey knight terminators that could take on a million critters- it would be cool, and fluffy).

It's offensive that GW has spent so much time creating a detailed world and then ignores its basic tenets in the army lists.  Khorne Berzerkers should actually have Khornish chainaxes, that modify saves and kill people easier.  It's been that way in the fluff and the rules since 1991, at the least.  Night Lords should have access to more squads of Raptors than anyone else.  It's what they do; they aren't just dark blue marines with the same access to raptors as everyone else.  They just aren't.  Death Guard should have True Grit.  True Grit was originally invented for Death Guard, fo crying out loud! There are plenty of examples of this.  They could have shown a little love for the founding traitor legions and given them a trait to reflect their differences.  No need for TONS of special rules.  But they don't even get a fluff section describing them; that's lame.

It's crazy to remove all association with specific daemon types from space marine armies.  You could almost justify it for cultists- but not for the most elite and dedicated fighters that work for chaos.  Adjust their point costs, change summoning (which they did), adjust some of the abilities. But don't make them all the same.  It turns its back on 25 years of background material regarding daemons.

It's a shocking difference to look at the earlier fluff and the current codex.  Worlds apart.

You can throw my towel into Yak's corner too. There are also several vets ("Ohio Players" as Blackmoor called us) that are fine with this codex. Simplified and straightforward.

I fall on the opposite side of Yak, they should strive to make the other list competative by upping their choices and effectivness. Instead they do the opposite shackling a good list to match the special needs ones they have. It is the lazy way out, but then again look who we are talking about.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:48 AM

Posted By malfred on 08/14/2007 9:41 AM
They vape entire threads?

Unless it's a direct attack on them, that's just weird.

Well, in one of them I was defending HBMC's deconstruction, and Dakka as a whole.  I pointed out that while constant screaming cynicism gets old sometimes, Warseers howler monkey policy of screaming "cheese" or "hater" at anybody who either enjoys playing to win, or who has a complaint about GW.

It's a great board with plenty of activity, they just really drank the GW Kool Aid, and close down threads that get even slightly nasty.

Unlike Dakka, where the average thread feels like the Tupac/Biggie feud.

Good stuff here!

Too long to sig though...

 

"Howler Monkey Policy" indeed!

I just read the previous poster and wanted to make a response to a specific comment.

You just made the point (as have others) that change is to be expected from one codex to another.  And I agree that we shoudl expect some change.  My objection, however, is the lack of consitancy.  I'll give you an example.

If one plays Ultrmarines, or generic space marines, there have been changes from codex to codex.  But the underlying principles of the army construction don't actually change.  Fluff meets rules consistantly for the boys in blue.  You can reasonablly expect 5-10 man units, one assault weapon, one heavy weapon.  You can expect that tactical squads are your backbone.  You can expect scouts, terminators, land raiders, rhinos, etc.  All of these elements that make up a generic space marine army circa 1995 are true in 2000 and true in 2007.  They'll most likely always be similar.

But GW pulled the rug out from people with chaos.  There are complete army lists and builds that are impossible under the new dex.  I'm not saying that ALL of these builds were cool, or even inherantly fair/balanced. Thre's no reason these fluffy, weird lists couldn't have been balanced when intially presented to gamers years and years ago. I'm only saying that they were presented as legitimate and legal armies under previous editions and they no longer exist.   There's something that feels unfair about that, that Chaos players can't reasonably expect that their armies look and behave vaguely similar from codex to codex, much like Space Marine players, or Guard players can/have.

Previously, I once had an idea for a choas army that featured 18 claanesh chosen with daemonettes.  The chosen all had daemonic speed or flight, with rending claws or power weapons, in three fluffy squads of 6.  Each was going to be a woman with a long slaaneshy serpent tail.  Half of the squad would have the old slaanesh crab claws.  Half would have power weapons and pistols.  A third would have doom sirens.  The troops would be all daemonettes and daemonettes on steeds.  I would also include a Keeper of Secrets.  it would have been a beautifully converted and painted army, as well as insanely expensive.  Definately cheesy and harsh, but I respect anyone that would grow through the trouble of painting and building an army like that.  It would be a pelasure to get my ass handed to me because it would be so much fun to play.  While extreme, that army was COMPLETELY legal under the previous codex.  It was also extremely fluffy.  And it would be nearly a thousand dollars thrown down the drain, solely because Chaos can't reasonably expect any sort of consistency from edition to edtion; certainly not the same level that the other imperial armies have.

It's the breaking with their own fluff and internal consistancy that bugs me so much. 

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
What I dont get about the chaos codex is while Arhiman was looking for the black library and apparently I guess found the instruction manual for his staff, and I guess he sent the PDF to the other sorcerers but its also funny how the renegade marines seemingly ditched their assault cannons, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, landspeeders, thunderhammers, and whirlwinds and I guess dropped them in the trash bin for some orks to loot.

I find that interesting also. And what happened to all those Basilisks the IW used to have? Did the Imperial Guard reposses them because the IWs weren't making the lease payments?

Holy overblown responses!!!

Thoughtpolice?
Soul destroying, abandonment, and "crap over your efforts"??

Not to put too fine a point on it, but hyperbole like this is why no one takes internet comments seriously.  I know the "it" thing for folks my age and younger is to pretend the vastly generous and fairly easy lifestyle we have is really a huge burden and we are oppressed...but let's not get ridiculous (too late).

No one knows how it plays because no one has played it. GW has recommended, every Games Day ever held, that players treat this thing like a buffet...take what you like, leave the rest, homebrew rules. It's a business.

Business, business, business. This is why fanboys are the most laughed at species of nerd on the planet...they treat business decisions as personal insults.

As for complaining over Daemons...they are getting their own Codex next year (ostensibly). Cry me a river with your new plastic daemons and own ruleset (which will probably be bland like this one).

People whined about having too many options in 2002. Now they are whining about not enough. Welcome to the internet. Long may she reign.

+1 on what Chuck said

Well, clearly those bassies can be the basis for the new renegade army--using IG rules of course.

And those demons? Why, just pick up one of these GF9 trays (movement trays for figs with round bases) and now you can start that Fantasy Battle Chaos army you've always wanted. Brilliant!

See? All better now.

With such a tremendous outcry I'm sure GW will do something.. maybe they'll do a PDF for rules for some of the old legions? Or stick em in that demon book that no one should hold their breath waiting for?

First off, I'm honored that i've even been considered for a sig.

Secondly, the thing you have to remember about internet hyperbole is that all we have are words. No intonation, no facial expression, so gestures. Just the words that we right. So, while it's silly on the surface to write "this new codex destroyed my army and makes me feel like GW punched me in the stomach," it's more effective than writing, "man, this is annoying and I feel inconvenienced and mildly put out."

Couple that with the fact that the reason we're not playing with the new codex is because GW keeps them locked in boxes, slipping a few here and there for over a month before the average gamer can get his hands on it. The goal is to create buzz, but buzz is a double edged sword. Vets can't always see the good stuff, they hear the bad and can't spend a few hours with the book to dig out the good. In a few months, people will be happy again.

As for Warseer, I really enjoy posting there. While the noise ratio is high, there's simply more content than anywhere else, and when I have time, it's fun to wade hip deep into it to find a few cool nuggets.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 11:08 AM

No one knows how it plays because no one has played it.

W40K is a simple enough game that anybody with basic high school math skills can easily figure out how any army plays just by reading the codex.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 11:08 AM

Holy overblown responses!!!

Thoughtpolice?
Soul destroying, abandonment, and "crap over your efforts"??

Not to put too fine a point on it, but hyperbole like this is why no one takes internet comments seriously.  I know the "it" thing for folks my age and younger is to pretend the vastly generous and fairly easy lifestyle we have is really a huge burden and we are oppressed...but let's not get ridiculous (too late).

No one knows how it plays because no one has played it. GW has recommended, every Games Day ever held, that players treat this thing like a buffet...take what you like, leave the rest, homebrew rules. It's a business.

Business, business, business. This is why fanboys are the most laughed at species of nerd on the planet...they treat business decisions as personal insults.

As for complaining over Daemons...they are getting their own Codex next year (ostensibly). Cry me a river with your new plastic daemons and own ruleset (which will probably be bland like this one).

People whined about having too many options in 2002. Now they are whining about not enough. Welcome to the internet. Long may she reign.

To some degree this is true! But.....your statement forgets a few home truths! While fanboys may be laughable, no one likes wasting money buying figures only to find that your "investment" in your priviliged lifestyle equates to zip. If you take your time you could spend hours on 1 miniature!! Now, you've just completed a 2000pt army and 30% - 60% of your army ( depending on the choices you make ) is nolonger viable.....woe to all those who created a squat army back in the day!

I agree with you as far as people complaining for the sake of it, and moaning about change! But we're talking about GW...these boys certainly don't belive in a free lunch, you pay for your hobbying with GW in hard earn bucks!! Everytime they have a brain fart it hurts someone ( mostly every gamer ) in the second worst area...the wallet!!

Now your other point.....about doing your own thing....well, yeah, of course you can...but then as time passes and you keep doing your own thing, eventually you'll be doing something but it won't be WH40K. So it seems to me that you've turned your back on GW anyway for exactly the reason as everyone else....CAUSE YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT!!

That seems to be the attitude of GW. ?Hey, we know you bought 9 Obliterators and 3 Basilisks for your Iron Warriors army, and that cost you $300, but you can?t use most of that anymore. Suck it up and move on.? No wonder I haven?t felt the desire to buy any of their products in a long time. Do you have unlimited resources to buy stuff that you can?t use any longer? I don?t.



Rules, to me, are simply playable translations of the fluff. If, for example, Iron Warriors fluff describes them as being good at seige warfare, then the goal would be to translate that fluff into a playable set of rules. GW did that, first in the Index:Astartes series of articles, then in the previous Chaos Codex. Not much changed from the Astartes Article to the Codex. They still had access to Basilisks, 9 Obliterators, Tank Hunters skill, etc. However, none of that apparently exists anymore with the new codex. So, in the new Codex, there is no difference between a vanilla CSM army with 3 Vindicators and an ?Iron Warriors? army with 3 Vindicators. Changes done as ?fine tuning? is one thing but completely dropping rules for a particular army is another thing entirely. An army can have all the fluff it wants, but if that fluff is not translated into a playable set of rules then that army is no different from an army that has no fluff.

Again, I can paint my miniatures in whatever color scheme that matches the fluff, but with no rules to go along with that fluff, they are just different colored marines. The previous codex allowed players to play the established Traitor Legions as well as make up their own Renegade chapters. Want a Renegade chapter of Blood Angels? Use the Furious Charge Veteran Skill. A Renegade chapter of Space Wolves? Use the Counter Attack skill. Fenrisian wolves to go with your Renegade Space Wolves? Use chaos hound rules with wolf models. Can you make such diverse chapters of renegade Space Marines with the new Codex? Apparently not. All the "renegades" in the new Codex have apparently lost the traits and skills of their parent chapter and have instead become followers of the 4 Major Gods (although unable to summon demons specific to those gods) or they are Undivided and still have lost the traits/skills of their parent chapter, making them no different than any other renegade chapter except they are colored differently.

I feel for you guys whom have invested considerable time, effort, and money in your Chaos lists that feel hosed by this new codex. I understand your frustration.

That being said, I like the new codex (Full disclosure: I don't currently own any Chaos models) and I'm now interested in building an army. You have to figure GW believes (right or wrong) that there are more potential players (and purchasers) like me than those that will stop playing.

I just wish GW had the resources to successfully launch this codex, the daemon codex with traitors & mutants, and then Legion-specific codices (or compilations) such as those done with DA,BA,BT,SW,etc. If they could then this codex would be more successful representing generic CSM warbands. But I realize this is a pipe-dream... though it seems weird that GW wanted to nurture hope and leave it a possible pipe-dream with this codex and the rumored one coming out next year.

Mind you I've only played since 3rd edition so I"m not as jaded

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 11:08 AM

Holy overblown responses!!!

Thoughtpolice?
Soul destroying, abandonment, and "crap over your efforts"??

but let's not get ridiculous (too late).

Well, the thought police remark was actually a jab at Warseer, but allow me to remain on point.  Namely this: you want ridiculous?  Done.

H.B.M.C.

Outstanding review. I read through the 'free' codex and then read this and shook my head in agreement at the end of every one of your insightful paragraphs.

I would like to add that I bet Andy Chambers is laughing his ass off right now.... You know I used to loathe his rules writing and his attitude to veteran gamers and such but I'd take his rules over this new trend from GW.

Posted By ubermosher on 08/14/2007 12:26 PM
I just wish GW had the resources to successfully launch this codex, the daemon codex with traitors & mutants, and then Legion-specific codices (or compilations) such as those done with DA,BA,BT,SW,etc. If they could then this codex would be more successful representing generic CSM warbands. But I realize this is a pipe-dream... though it seems weird that GW wanted to nurture hope and leave it a possible pipe-dream with this codex and the rumored one coming out next year. 

On the old GW Games Development forum, I actually suggested a couple of times they make a codex like this. However, this isn't exactly what I had envisioned. IMHO, they should have made a codex for Renegads, kept the skills and gifts from the previous codex so that players could make unique Renegade chapters instead of just different colored chapters, used Marks of Chaos similar to those found in the Lost and the Damned list, and generic demons that can be modified similar to the Creature Feature article in WD. Chapters such as the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, etc, would have their own sections like in the previous codex.

In addition, they could have made a seperate book for each of the 4 powers, or a couple of books that focused on 2 of the armies of the Major Gods each codex, like the old Lost and the Damned books from years gone by. New demon engines could be introduced. Each army list could be tailored to suit the style of God it followed. Like Juggernauts could be a Heavy Support choice for Khorne, Chosen of Tzeentch would be Sorcerors, etc, sort of like what they did with the Index:Astartes articles in WD. Remember the Favored of Khorne unit? The reaction I got most from other posters was "There's enough Marine books as it is. We don't need seperate books, as the current codex works just fine."

I started my decline into being jaded back in 5th edition Fantasy.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 11:32 AM

Secondly, the thing you have to remember about internet hyperbole is that all we have are words. No intonation, no facial expression, so gestures. Just the words that we right. So, while it's silly on the surface to write "this new codex destroyed my army and makes me feel like GW punched me in the stomach," it's more effective than writing, "man, this is annoying and I feel inconvenienced and mildly put out."

Polonius,

I agree all we have are words, with the caveat that we also have MONEY, which talks a much better game than words (provided you are part of a majority, or at least a quorum).  But going back to words, it's specifically BECAUSE of the words that I decry the overly simplistic hyperbole.  Once you hit that level of whine on a luxury hobby, you clearly have lost all reason; any further discussion is limited to junior high level discourse, at best.  It's not only silly on the surface to write such exaggerations, it's even sillier to read them with any sort of perspective. 

A much more effective way to utilize those words would be in cogent arguments explaining the position, and why it's unacceptable.  Hyperbole is merely noise, unless backed up by real data.  I consider it less effective...it undermines the entire (somewhat legitimate) point.

I think people also know that GW doesn't listen to them, or when it does, it warps what they asked for into something else. People are whining because they're upset. Yes, it's just a game. Yes, it's not a big deal. It's also not a huge deal to ignore it.

Everybody adapts. We saw Eldar, we're watching DA, we saw Elysians when the new IG hit, heck, Ork players still put armies on the field. Just give it time. In the interim, just enjoy a good old fashioned *female dog* session. They're therapeutic, and since it's online, you're never trapped in one. In a month, when everybody is actually gaming with the new book, not just hearing about it, the whining will taper off.

as for hyperbole being ineffecitve without data, I think you're missing the point. There are no cogent arguemtns to be made for some of these guys? Annoyance and frustration and whatever don't make for good data, or a simple logical complaint. Just ride the hate man, just ride it.

Think of it this way: when your buddy comes home from work, and he had a really lousy day, and he just starts ranting and raving about how he hates his job, and want's to quit, and he's going to move to alaska and work in the oil fields, do you sit there and say, "well, you may have a valid complaint, but it's a good paying job that provides you with career opportunities and a comfortable lifestyle," or do you give him a beer and say, "that sucks, dude." Sure, it's important to keep the big picture in mind. But from time to time, allow people to simply vent. It's healthier.

I've played against it. I can't really form a strong basis of opinion just yet, because the list I used against it was not the type I'd normally bring, and I lost.

The Chaos Army still seems completely competitive from what I've seen, but it no longer really has the flavor that it once did. I agree whole heartedly with H.B.M.C. This game is not anything like it was 10 years ago, and I think it suffers because of that. GW would probably be better served to return to their older style of rules.

I think if they used this Codex as a jumping point from which to write new Legion Specific Codexes, it might be cool. I agree there are perhaps too many different codexes for "men in power armor", but using "Vanilla" chaos/SM for tourneys, and a hand full of special codex's that can be included at the discretion of the organizers might be a good way to go. I do think they should have put in a customization rule set similar to that in Codex:SM though.

I am rather on both sides of the fence. I agree with Yak that simplicity = balance, but I also think that more variety is more fun. I also loathe GW's tendancy to make units that are pointless. My personal gripe is with Sisters Repentia, but the possessed are obviously very troublesome as well. Both are really cool in theory, but are not priced for their rules (15 pt Repentia might be worth it, likewise I could see taking a mess of cheap possessed on the chance they might be really cool, or moderately worthless).
I think the previous Chaos Codex seemed like the book version of drunken kit-bash: way too many things crammed into too one small book, making it difficult to figure out what was going on. I think they would have done well to have a few codex's "Renegade Marines", "Lost and The Damned (traiter guard)" and then "Marines that are REALLY Serious About Chaos and the Demons that Love Them", the latter having the specialized lists for the 4 Ruinous Powers, as well as the demons. Then you could just ally them together and pick and choose etc. just like us Loyalists do. (With the wierd Sisters and Marines don't mix exception.)

All in all, I don't play traitors, I set them on fire, so I don't mind much on a personal level, but it makes me very nervous about what is going to happen with my beloved Orks...

I would imagine by making non MEQ armies more on par with MEQ armies, you will have more of a balance of armies played. Most aren't played now because they just aren't viable. Fun, not viable.

And yes, repentia being able to use faith points would make them at least worth taking. Simple tweaks through FAQs could fix a lot of little issues. But that also causes problems....

I own, literally and without hyperbole, thousands of dollars of chaos miniatures that have been reduced to "counts as" status.  Say what you will, but I choose not to treat every single "lesser" daemon as interchangeable.



I find GW's willingness to off-handedly and without explanation render useless my prior investments in their products somewhat distressing, and it will cause me to reconsider whenever I may be faced with the choice of investing in their products again. If they are unwilling to support players after the purchase, I am unwilling to support them by purchasing.

There, no hyperbole. Content?

dienekes96 wrote:

A much more effective way to utilize those words would be in cogent arguments explaining the position, and why it's unacceptable.  Hyperbole is merely noise, unless backed up by real data.  I consider it less effective...it undermines the entire (somewhat legitimate) point.

Y'know, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement and your statement about talking with your wallet... like I stated earlier, GW just lost $775 in sales in the next month, and I'm not buying anything for the forseeable future (maybe I'll see what the climate's like in '09). 

I think what absolutely annoys people though, and I count myself among them, is that fact that we have tried using arguments.  We've tried posting our feelings and thoughts about the state of our beloved forces.  We've postulated on why we feel they've screwed up big time on this blandness that is the Codex: Naughty, Spiky Space Marines Without Their Regular Equipment.  And then, after we've tried to explain how the changes invalidate a lot of our forces, we get this:

Ozymandias: "People only want to be slightly Chaotic.  4 Heavy Support choices and Siren Prince are fluffy, but random possessed?... Whoa, there, that's too Chaotic for me."

Scuddman: "Oh, I see, what you really meant to say was chaotic and overpowered.  Or you want consistency, which is hardly "chaotic" or random."

Well, gee, thanks for adding to the arguments in a coherent, well thought out reply.  I guess because we chose Chaos, we're automatically looking for overpowered and random.  Yup, that's me: I have a specially written table so I can roll for which units I'm going to use in a force when I play against others.  Really.  

So, after all is said and mocked, I think Polonius has it right.  People are upset right now.  Let them gripe amongst themselves for now, and get back to whatever they plan on doing with their forces.  In a month or two, some will be playing the Codex.  Others (like myself), will never buy it and never play with it.  I have no interest right now in tournaments, and if I did, I can still use my Eldar... and YES, I own exactly 1, count 'em, 1 Falcon, and run a strong number of guardian units.

And in the future, let's hope GW finally wises up and does the Space Marine Redux, and gets rid of all the splinter Codexes, so there's no more Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc... just Bland Marines of Differing Colors.  I promise when the complaining of the Loyalists reaches new heights, I won't come around to say "yeah, well you were just cheese mongers for wanting a force that was different than the other Marine forces, so I don't feel sorry for you at all! Nyaaaaah!"

-Vilegrimm

Until they have completed what arc they want to for Chaos, you can't say anything truly has been deleted or removed.

Here is what they have. Codex: Renegades
coming soon is Codexaemons
they have expressed intent (which means little at this point, but helps with seeing what they are trying to do)
with trying to put out a codex or codexes that cover the legions along with sprues and support for those armies.
and even then mutant hordes are being included in Apoc. There is a possibility in the end that the books will cover all bases. Who knows.

NOw that we have heard from the CON side of the arena, would the PRO side please stand up and offer their retort to this debate.

Thanks HBMC your review, although scathing at least put out your ideas and that is appropriate. Now I would like to hear from the other side.

Can anyone offer a counter or PRO side?

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 2:01 PM
Until they have completed what arc they want to for Chaos, you can't say anything truly has been deleted or removed.

Here is what they have. Codex: Renegades
coming soon is Codexaemons
they have expressed intent (which means little at this point, but helps with seeing what they are trying to do)
with trying to put out a codex or codexes that cover the legions along with sprues and support for those armies.
and even then mutant hordes are being included in Apoc. There is a possibility in the end that the books will cover all bases. Who knows.

If that's what they're going to do, then for the love of chinesus, tell us.  Not through muttered ramblings in dark rooms, but in print on the Chaos page.  They did that with the fantasy chaos books.  If they're going to include all the other chaos factions (legions, daemons, traitor guard), then they should get a new marketing team.

*Crickets chirping*

i lyk the new codpiece cuz my defliers attack veri more (x2)

They stated the want, to do that. But didn't know if they would be able to due to resources. So we have a bit of a wait.

It is confirmed that we have two codexes. What is in the second is up to speculation at this point. TLaTD is covered in apoc.

I don't think the Pro side is going to jump right in and write a review before it has been tested. If it tests well on the board, you will see some pros, if not, you get all the disgruntled reviews.

I could write a Pro review based off of just what H.B.M.C said, but would it be totally truthful or unbiased? No.

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 2:26 PM

I could write a Pro review based off of just what H.B.M.C said, but would it be totally truthful or unbiased? No.

I love the implied Parthian shot.

Posted By two heads talking on 08/14/2007 2:04 PM
NOw that we have heard from the CON side of the arena, would the PRO side please stand up and offer their retort to this debate.

Thanks HBMC your review, although scathing at least put out your ideas and that is appropriate. Now I would like to hear from the other side.

Can anyone offer a counter or PRO side?

New codex double plus plus good.

From what has been said I think it's safe to say if you have a huge multipower chaos army, you should be fine.

If you are just starting, you should be fine.

If you have invested enough to play a heavily themed (AKA expensive) sub army (Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, any of the cult armies) you will probably weep and gnash your teeth.

If you played any daemon heavy Chaos Space Marine Army, well you will feel a slight pain as Dr. GW asks you to turn your head and cough. Vague talk about the ability to use your daemons with your marine in large games indicates a decided lack of viability outside of Apocolypse. Nothing has ever been said that indicates even the remotest possibility that the two books will interact like the Inquistion books. EVER.

And for those of you who are hoping Apocolypse is the savior... I give the company one year to begin neglecting it. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

On a side note, I just don't get why people think apocalypse will be awesome to any extend? It's still 40k without any restrictions barring points.
Why should the game be balanced and tactical if you just have a bigger fight?

Thanks for the review! I agree that the whole codex seems like a blueprint being published.

Greets
Schepp himself

Posted By two heads talking on 08/14/2007 2:04 PM

Can anyone offer a counter or PRO side?

Outside of the usual doublespeak it boils down to this.

The Chaos Codex has too many options, to many list that are viable and deadly.  My codex sucks thusly the Chaos codex should be bought down to my Codex's level because I have whined on the intraweb for X number of years and  cried myself to sleep at the spankings I have gotten playing 40K. 

Posted By Schepp himself on 08/14/2007 2:39 PM
On a side note, I just don't get why people think apocalypse will be awesome to any extend? It's still 40k without any restrictions barring points.
Why should the game be balanced and tactical if you just have a bigger fight?

I second that notion!

I'm not so sure that Apocalypse will be much fun, aside from the rather cool new models it might bring about...

The Ork Stompa might just get me to field an Ork army, though I've resisted since '93 (when Orks had lots of character, and a weapon that would force marine players to not field terminators!)...

The imbalance is taken care of in other ways, with more emphasis on the big stuff. Also since it isn't tourney based I see a lot more house rules and beer and pretzels style gaming.

Apocalypse seems like a good time since, if nothing else, it combines a lot of of the extra books and rules into one source. Plus, I wouldn't mind fielding some of my less viable, but really neat and fluffy (*ahem*Repentia*ahem*) models if I didn't think they were taking a slot away from something that pulls it's weight better. As stated, it seems a lot more beer and pretzle than standard 40k, due to the "Bring what you have, and we will dole out things to make up the pts difference" business.

I agree though, for those wounded by the new Chaos Codex, it is a poor poultice. I would be very upset if I had a pile of now obsolete mini's floating around, even if there was the whispered promise of a new codex for them in the months ahead. I can only imagine how I would feel if suddenly Codex: Orkz came out and all orkz that weren't in power armor like the new ones counted as gretchin. Or more keenly, if a new Witch Hunters came out that made my Exorcists count as Razorbacks.

I would find the person that did that, hold them down, and pour the melted remains of those meticulously painted tanks on their chests, so that for the rest of their lives, everyone could see the time I spent on them, and the end result.

Oh, I don't know.  I think the Demons are costly for what they are, Marines with 2 attacks, no ranged and a 5+ inv in place of a 3+ normal.

However, it would be humurous to play a 1kSons, take two biker units w/ icons, min troops and the rest demons.  For 1300 pts you could have 100 demons to summon.  Figure first turn, turbo get a 2+ Inv on both sides, next turn on average you should pop 50 demons on their side of the board within assault range.  Next turn, another 50 show up. 

Would certainly be funny to do once

 

 

They stated the want, to do that. But didn't know if they would be able to due to resources. So we have a bit of a wait.

It is confirmed that we have two codexes. What is in the second is up to speculation at this point. TLaTD is covered in apoc.

Toreador: so what you are telling us is to be patient, and eventually GW might find the resources to reinstate the Traitor Legions?  Gosh, cool, I can hardly wait... but I won't be holding my breath.

And yes, it is confirmed we have two codexes.  Have we also had it confirmed that the two will interact? Nope, pure speculation there, as you've pointed out... so why then should we wait for the obvious plethora of daemons that will be in it.  So far all we seem to have is a name for the Codex, yet the PRO side (as someone called them) is telling us our daemons will be returned then, so don't sweat it.  Pure speculation on their part, isn't it?

And who's to say that there will be a plethora of daemons and choices in this 2nd Codex?  In case you haven't noticed, the trend right now is Less, not More.  So to say that Codex: Daemons Who Shoulda Bin In the Previous Codex will be a blessing for option-starved Chaos worshippers is premature, to say the least.

Second point: the LatD has been covered in Apocalypse? Really? Has this been confirmed?  And if so, how have they been covered?  With actual rules, or just a "Oh, yah, you can use your LatD models, too, just count 'em as Renegade Guard or sumpin'" rules summary?  Sarcasm aside, I really am curious as to this one, as it may be the only saving grace and reason I pick up Apocalypse...

-Vilegrimm

Ok, I just saw the stats for the Possessed, they really aren't that bad. They do have S5, 2A and LD 10 with a 5+ Inv save. Treat the roll as a bonus and you're set. I use Wyches and Reavers in my DE army and they have random abilities rolled every game and somehow I survive.

And yes VileGrimm, it has been confirmed by GW that LatD will have a datasheet in Apocalypse. You will have access to anything in Codex: IG but must also take 3 units of mutants. And its no problem to mix them with Chaos marines as in Apoc you can ally with just about anything (the example was a SM force with allied Harlequins cause the guy "must have liked the models").

According to Phil Kelly at GDLA, Apoc is a lot of fun to play but won't really appeal to the tournament players. This has come up in another thread but he mentioned playing a game with his Nid horde vs. Alessio's Eldar with all 6 Phoenix Lords. He said it was like fighting the X-Men. I'm greatly looking forward to this release and being able to use my entire 5th company Dark Angels force, soon to be backed up by a baneblade.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 3:56 PM

And yes VileGrimm, it has been confirmed by GW that LatD will have a datasheet in Apocalypse. You will have access to anything in Codex: IG but must also take 3 units of mutants.

Is that supposed to make us feel better?  That's even more insulting than "Codex: Very (x2) Spiky Marines":

"Congrats, LatD players!  Go out and buy Codex: Apocalypse for the rules for your three units of mutants.  And then go buy Codex: Imperial Guard!"

Hooray for "Codex: Imperial Guard with Three Units of Deformed Guardsmen"!

This review didn't really state much that the lashwhip hate threads haven't stated already. Hate, spite, vitriol, etc. Just like with every other codex release of the past 5 years. Prophecies of doom, insults to the designers, cries of over poweredness, and alot of self assured loathing. Despite this some people will look at the codex as a shiney new and better version of that bloated over powered confusing piece of crap chaos players have been using for years and will start a new army with it.

As someone that never played second edition (I hear it was rediculous and bad) and as someone who actually likes a balanced play environment where min maxing is hard i like the codex alot. If you want a traitor legion make one. All the chosen are base troops now and you have your marks. If you still need your broken rules to feel validated then find someone willing to play you using the old codex.

To those who say "If you're playing witha group of gamers, make up your own rules!" the problem is that you need some way on forming a consensus. I play in a club of 20 guys and gals. Some I'm very good friends with, others I'm on cordial relations with, one or two I don't see completely eye to eye with but enjoy gaming with anyway. Getting all 20 to agree that my idea for a revised ork codex is fair is impossible. Some think it's broken now, some think my ideas make it overpowered, some just don't like to deviate from the written books because it's confusing. So I'm stuck with my near decade old codex, playing the ole move remove game some call 40K. Well, not really, since I've pretty much quit. But my point is still there. I pay 30 quid for a box of plastic because I can use it in a fun game with my friends. If I have to make rules for those dudes to make it fun, I want a reduction in price.
Do you see where I'm coming from with this? You generally end up having to use the official stuff, or no one will really be that happy playing you even in a friendly club setting. And I'd like to be able to compete with my stuff at a tourney if I went, so there's another problem.
I do agree that this codex is a bit of "be careful what you wish for", but would it have been that hard to include different rules for the various daemons? Really? To me, the whole thing seems rushed.
Also, random does not equal chaos in the 40K sense. The con side were wrong when they implied it- what they should have said was "random abilities suck from a list building perspective!" but the pro side were also wrong when they used it as a rebuttal. Chaos and Chaotic refers to the Warp, the Daemons, the 4 Gods and all that malarky, not the butterfly effect.
Okay?

My Exhaustive Review of the new Chaos Codex:

Its dull, not very well balanced and most of the variety has gone.

I don't think it really merits further discussion.

There's is no comparison between wyches and possessed. Don't even try. Wyches don't need any particular result on the drugs roll to be good. Hell get rid of it and they'd still be a bargain. Can't say that about the possessed. Possessed don't have a succubus like model to do the damage and they sure as hell ain't a bargain without the roll.

Closest comparison one could make would be with 13th company wulfen and even then it's a poor comparison (too many differences in abilities).

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/14/2007 4:12 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 3:56 PM

And yes VileGrimm, it has been confirmed by GW that LatD will have a datasheet in Apocalypse. You will have access to anything in Codex: IG but must also take 3 units of mutants.

Is that supposed to make us feel better?  That's even more insulting than "Codex: Very (x2) Spiky Marines":

"Congrats, LatD players!  Go out and buy Codex: Apocalypse for the rules for your three units of mutants.  And then go buy Codex: Imperial Guard!"

Hooray for "Codex: Imperial Guard with Three Units of Deformed Guardsmen"!

Did I say it was supposed to make you feel better?!  He asked if it was confirmed and I was saying that it was.  Don't attack me for answering the guy's question.

I know it makes you feel better to rage against the world because of the new codex (despite the fact that many people including Yakface and Blackmoor are quite happy with the new dex) but don't immediately assume that everyone who doesn't hate the new Chaos codex with the fury of a thousand suns is out to piss you off.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Da Boss on 08/14/2007 4:13 PM
Also, random does not equal chaos in the 40K sense. The con side were wrong when they implied it- what they should have said was "random abilities suck from a list building perspective!" but the pro side were also wrong when they used it as a rebuttal. Chaos and Chaotic refers to the Warp, the Daemons, the 4 Gods and all that malarky, not the butterfly effect.
Okay?

Apparently no one remembers the old Chaos army lists that used to give random abilities as power-ups.  I remember playing 4th Ed with the Chaos gifts cards for the Chaos army book.  Back then, Chaos did have a random element to it.  Its not Chaos = Random, but it does have an element of randomness to it.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 4:52 PM

Did I say it was supposed to make you feel better?!  He asked if it was confirmed and I was saying that it was.  Don't attack me for answering the guy's question.

Doh.  My apologies.

Posted By scuddman on 08/14/2007 7:31 AM
Reading comprehension for the win.  I was showing logical fallacies in his argument.  How did that become defense of the chaos book?  And I like how no one addressed my argument. 

Yeah, except for:

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/13/2007 8:52 PM
Finally, Chaos =/= Random. Chaos = corruption. It's cutting your arm and mice coming out rather than blood. It's cheese and anvils falling from the sky. It's not a D6 table to find out if your 26 point Possessed are going to do anything this game.

And:

Posted By Ahtman on 08/13/2007 9:32 PM
This is almost another strawman. You are rebutting his counter-argument by defining chaos in the dictionary use, but we all know that, now follow me on this, we are talking about Warhammer's Chaos, which is not the same thing.

And:

Posted By efarrer on 08/13/2007 9:42 PM
First off. Chaotic does not mean random in this chaos (although chaos never does mean random in any sense, utter confusion at best which is a reasonable term when applied to the logic used for this book). In GW's case chaos is part of  a battle between Order and Chaos, as in an eternal struggle. Chaos destroys while order builds. Nothing random in that.

But other than that, no one has addressed your argument at all.  It is no doubt due to your towering intellect and finely honed rhetorical skills that no one is willing to even attempt to assail the flawless logic of your expertly crafted argument.  Except for the people I quoted above of course.

Reading comprehension for the win indeed.

Have you guys even thought about why things like seer council, alaitoc, and sam haim went away?

Sam Haim?  Is that like Corey Haim's brother?

Posted By Iorek on 08/14/2007 10:05 AM
~Sigh~

I guess I HAVE to start a "Claws of Lorek" army now.  Dammit.

You don't have to.  You get to.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 6:48 AM
This would be a bigger deal for me without Apocalypse around the corner, which will hopefully loosen up the sphincters of Rules Only as Written gamers.

Well, the new Chaos codex certainly loosens my sphincter quite a bit.  Maybe that's why I find this codex to be so much fun...

 

  

 

 

FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
I fall into catagory C with a Lost and the Damned army that is nolonger legal in tournament play and had +50 models that were specifically converted as Nurgle mutants along with my 10 Furies that have no place now. I know many others who have Lost and the Damned armies and for one of the gamers, that was his only army and now $500 dollars of models are now unviable.

I'm an LatD player as well, with an extensive army of unique models. Not a single one is the same as the last one. I've used plastic and metal parts from everything to Orks, to 2nd Ed Marines, Chaos Marauders, Tau, right through to ancient plastic Orlocks and Goliaths from Necromunda. The models are so different from one another, and have so much personality, that I've named about two-dozen of them (Many-Arms McCoy, Gruntz, Death's Head, Lord Grimlock, Screech, The Gimp).

I love my LatD army because it allows me to combine my two biggest armies (I have 20,000 points of Chaos and 20,000 points of Guard including multiple superheavies and several Armorued Companies) into one incredibly powerful and fluffy force. LatD is an army that gets more powerful the more fluffy you get. When I heard they were making plastic Spawn I couldn't wait to include them in my LatD force.

And now they're one page in Apocalypse?

F#%k that.

Over 100 unique and tirelessly converted models and we get a page?

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 4:59 PM

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
I fall into catagory C with a Lost and the Damned army that is nolonger legal in tournament play and had +50 models that were specifically converted as Nurgle mutants along with my 10 Furies that have no place now. I know many others who have Lost and the Damned armies and for one of the gamers, that was his only army and now $500 dollars of models are now unviable.

I'm an LatD player as well, with an extensive army of unique models. Not a single one is the same as the last one. I've used plastic and metal parts from everything to Orks, to 2nd Ed Marines, Chaos Marauders, Tau, right through to ancient plastic Orlocks and Goliaths from Necromunda. The models are so different from one another, and have so much personality, that I've named about two-dozen of them (Many-Arms McCoy, Gruntz, Death's Head, Lord Grimlock, Screech, The Gimp).

I love my LatD army because it allows me to combine my two biggest armies (I have 20,000 points of Chaos and 20,000 points of Guard including multiple superheavies and several Armorued Companies) into one incredibly powerful and fluffy force. LatD is an army that gets more powerful the more fluffy you get. When I heard they were making plastic Spawn I couldn't wait to include them in my LatD force.

And now they're one page in Apocalypse?

F#%k that.

Over 100 unique and tirelessly converted models and we get a page?

BYE

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?  Plus, for someone who makes their own rules for 40k, you are getting awfully worked up over this.  You don't use the rules anyway, make up your own rules for LatD!!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

LONG LIVE THE CLAWS OF LOREK!

Ozy: Yes, but Orks also got random power ups, as did Dark Eldar and various others. This does not, in fact, make them Chaos armies. Random powerups are just that, random. they have nothing much to do with worshipping Nurgle. I've always thought "Chaos Gods" was a misnomer, but that's a whole other thing.

That said, both sides of the argument were wrong in this regard.

I'm unhappy with the codex because I feel that diversity has been reduced, fluff has been thrown out the window, and that it was a very lazy rush job. I'm selling my plague marines. I'm gonna wait until january, but I think that based on these trends, I'll be selling my orks soon too. And that's pretty big for me, I've been a rabid ork fan for years. but I think it's time for me to wake up and smell the coffee- 40K is fundementally broken, and GW aren't really interested in fixing it.

I own the first chaos BOOKS. Lost and the Damned, and Slaves to Darkness.
I played second, third, and fourth edition.

This new book, sucks.
H.B.M.C. is right on target with the general conversational value of this book, and any and all sorts of splitting hairs with the opinion are all fine and good, but lets see some games played with this hunk of crap, and you will quite possibly go back and melt down your armies just out of boredom alone. Some of you are absolutely clueless as to why this new codex is such a terrible tragedy, and will never figure out that this damn game used to be fun. The Army was YOURS. You took pride in your creation, and it was fun with interesting rules, and a good build as well. Units were crazy, characters were flakes, and it was neat.This new codex garbage, and subsquent books are .50 cent novels,or cliffnotes version of an army book, and the effort put into thier creation is easily compaired to a silent fart.

The real question I have is what that Vortex Grenade Template is really going to do on crap armies such as the new pawn for the win, " CHAOS SPACE MARINES" if this is the best that Gav the Noob can come up with.

I really hate to say it, but I'm scared at what this Apocalypse crap is really going to do to this, if this is the trend of this game.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 5:05 PM

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?  Plus, for someone who makes their own rules for 40k, you are getting awfully worked up over this.  You don't use the rules anyway, make up your own rules for LatD!!

I think I'm going to start a charity for the terminally stupid. You can be our spokes person.

But thanks for missing my point completely, again, Ozy. You never fail to impress.

I want to use my LatD in games of 40K, not always in 20,000 point games of Apoc. 'Make up your own rules' is not an argument. 

BYE

Posted By keichi246 on 08/14/2007 10:37 AM
The loss of a handful of funky game mechanics that differentiated your army slightly from the REST of your faction is not enough to destroy it.

Slightly??  I think a squad of slow & purposeful terminator automatons led by a sorcerer champion is a little more than slightly different than, well... anything that exists in the new codex.  What, did they all get eaten by Tyranids?

Yeah I could have them "counts as" terminators with a Tzeentch icon.  But they wouldn't be slow & purposeful.  Or fearless.  And they wouldn't be led by a sorcerer.  So how do I rationalize having inferno bolts, slow & purposeful, fearless, and a sorcerer champion in every rubric unit except terminators?  Does Terminator armour somehow make rubrics faster and more cowardly?

Oh wait, I got it!  Some Thousand Sons sorcerers have a genetic defect that gives them ADHD.  This causes their psychic powers to manifest in such a way that they can speed up the rubrics to normal walking speed!  Unfortunately since they have ADHD (and are completely insane) sometimes during the middle of a close combat they will just wig out and head for the hills.  Now that's fluffy!

Posted By keichi246 on 08/14/2007 10:37 AM
Towards the end of the 3rd edition, the Devs seemed to believe that every little bit of background and fluff required that the army have a special rule to represent it.

And who says they don't still do that now?  Jervis?  He's the guy who wrote the "Deathwing Assault" rule ferchrissakes!

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
but its also funny how the renegade marines seemingly ditched their assault cannons, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, landspeeders, thunderhammers, and whirlwinds and I guess dropped them in the trash bin for some orks to loot.

That's a big wtf for me as well.  Why is it that when loyalists go bad they all revert to pre-Heresy tech?  Is this explained anywhere?  Where the hell are they getting all their reaper autocannons and havoc launchers?

Well, Ozy, thanks for confirming the LatD/Apocalypse item for me... and Big Chris, I'm glad you apologized... I did ask him, after all. 

With that being said, anyone have any inside information on how the LatD is going to play?  Are they allowing the Big Mutant Squads to be more than 10 strong, or are we still limited to only 10?  I know I can't wait to show off my uniquely created Big Mutants, which include bits from original Ogryns to the original Beast of Nurgle right up the the Horned Rat's Avatar himself!  Now I just need to know what kind of role they'll play in Apocalypse.

Oh, and my Chaos Hounds... I usually include a pack of them with my traitors as well... hopefully I can field a horde of them.

Any info on whether the mutant's firearms are still wackadoo explosive?  I kill as many of my mutant's as I do opposition with them, but dang, they're fun!

 

I did find this rebuttal/comment to H.B.M.C. funny, though...

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?

Umm, excuse me?  What's this?  Since WHEN did I or anyone else have to ask GW's Permission to play large forces?  Hell, we had an 18,000 pt. battle (per side, that is) to start off the new edition of 40K.  Oh, crap, do you think GW read this?  Do you think they're off to our homes right now to arrest us for not getting permission?

Sheesh!  They've already stated that Apocalyptstic isn't for the Tourney Crowd anyway, so why does everyone think that NOW they can finally play a larger than usual force, just because GW said it's ok to?  Sure, there will be some extra rules, but the power to play with whatever you want is already in your hands, people... and for less than the posted prices for Rules and Templates.

-Vilegrimm

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 5:25 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 5:05 PM

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?  Plus, for someone who makes their own rules for 40k, you are getting awfully worked up over this.  You don't use the rules anyway, make up your own rules for LatD!!

I think I'm going to start a charity for the terminally stupid. You can be our spokes person.

But thanks for missing my point completely, again, Ozy. You never fail to impress.

I want to use my LatD in games of 40K, not always in 20,000 point games of Apoc. 'Make up your own rules' is not an argument. 

BYE

I believe the make up your own rules was a suggestion not an argument.  I don't see the harm in it regardless unless you are planning to frequent the tournament scene.  It sounds like you play with some laid back gamers anyways so disliking the new dex is not really something to stroke over.

Anyways back to the thread!

http://cleeseargument.ytmnd.com/

Ah, so does this mean it's time to stop complaining about the Dark Angels Codex? If so, I am a happy, happy man!

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/14/2007 5:56 PM
Ah, so does this mean it's time to stop complaining about the Dark Angels Codex? If so, I am a happy, happy man!

Of course not! We've all got quotas to meet.

BYE

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/14/2007 5:56 PM
Ah, so does this mean it's time to stop complaining about the Dark Angels Codex? If so, I am a happy, happy man!

And double posts to make!

BYE

He's also the guy who seemed to think that that sole rule made up for the nerfing of the entire army.

I'm glad to see that at least a few people are finding positives with this Codex. If GW can't do right by me, at least they can do right by some of their customers.

For me what it comes down to is that they've telegraphed their intentions and then failed at them.

They vastly cut down on the options in hopes of controlling unseen uber combintations... And yet Iron Warriors were the most broken army in the old Dex. Nothing complicated about them, except lots of HS, lots of Oblits. There's no combo, there's just one broken rule that makes it all possible.

And what happens in this new, severely oversimplified version? Lash of Submission, probably the single most broken rule in the entire game.

Somehow they manage to simultaneously be vastly overcautious, and at the same time totally careless. It's the worst of all worlds.



No. I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself... I hate Codex DA and BA for reasons not worth repeating. But I love Codex Eldar. Virtually every unit in the list is interesting and worth taking. Tau Empire is a good expansion of the original, it adds a few options, fixes a few issues, has a bunch of worthwhile units, and is competitive without being broken.

You can't tell me I hate everything GW does, and therefore the new Chaos Dex is great. I don't hate everything they do. I love virtually all of their models and fluff. I think the core rules are decent, playable, loosely worded and poorly FAQed. I think some Codices are great, some are average and some suck. Particularly lately.

It's almost like I have an opinion that's more complicated than your sweeping dismissal. Almost.

What's especially sad about all this, is that as much as I hate the Codex, as much as I hate Lash of Submission, I absolutely love the WHFB Chaos Warrior models and want to make an army with them. I'm still liable to buy this assbag of a Codex and buy more product from GW.

As I said above, I'm glad at least yak is happy.

Perhaps my previous post about selling the right to fight Jervis is too much. Instead, I think every book GW publishes should come with a little card inserted, which contains ratings for the models, art and rules. Rate what you like, send it in. Then the revenue can get split up according to ratings. THEN, when Jervis is actually in debt to GW, he can quit and retire to the island of chubby self-deprecating humor and be their bacon butty munching god king.

Seriously, what the F is a "bacon butty?" Does it make you slowed?



I don't either. "Think our rules are getting too shallow? Here's a game that makes them EVEN MORE shallow, but requires you to paint five times as many models!"

I can't even fathom what the hell they're thinking.

Lookin at apocolypse, it really doesn't look to be something I could take part in with my current ork footsloggers and enjoy.
"What, you mean blasts and armour are even more prevalent? I'll get to remove even more models every turn? My movement phases will be even longer and even more ultimately pointless? If I want to be more effective/have more fun I'll have to invest massive chunks of money in a game that ultimately sucks at it's base? Wow, that sounds fantastic, sign me up."

HBMC, thanks for the laughs and the candor.

I really do appreciate candor, and humor....and ....monkeys....

Anyways, Its sad that this codex is yet another dull reminder of the current financial position that GW could get out of if it tried, but steadfastly refuses to because they have a guy that thinks he knows what he is doing, but really has been in the business for far too long.

Thanks Jervis. Just because you could never beat Andy Chambers in a BATREP, you have to take it out on everyone else? Browbeat the rest of the dev team into your clouded view of how fun is made?

Pathetic, just like this codex.

110% fail in the fun factor. Not even Apocalypse could make this codex look good.

Someone asked for pro comments. I haven't read the new codex so I cannot say for sure  but I have liked the Eldar, Dark Angels ,and Blood  Angels codex  (I have to re do  my entire army). From all of the rumors I am more excited about this codex than any of the 4th edition ones. With minor tweaking I will still be able to use all 9 of my chaos forces (10 if you count the fallen) and I might even put together one more based just on the renegades . In my regular group there has only been one person who dislikes the rumors  The Plague  Marine player can use Heavy Weapons,  The 1000 sons  player  might actually win a game or two, The former Iron warrior player who figured out that he was really playing black legion can now use deamons without repainting all of his minis.  The guy who plays his own legion just has to use the new rules. And the guy who is working on a 100% converted slanenesh army can do some really cool snake daemons. Most of the group only play for fun but a few of us go to tournaments.

i played my first game with the new codex last night and i loved it. It is far superior then the old codex which was fulls of errors and broken bits. I am just glad that the stupid members of the gaming community can no longer find a home in the chaos codex. go you silly chaos players who hate this codex go to the nids or the tau or the upcoming orks.
get your whiney asses out of this army.
I will gladly run up my 88 berzeker army up the middle of the field to get slaughtered.

killing for khorne since '92

Posted By skkipper on 08/14/2007 8:57 PM
get your whiney asses out of this army.

Y'know, you're right.

The people with the hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of Daemons, and those of us with now-invalid Death Guard, 1KSons, World Eater, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Night Lord, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion and LatD armies - we're just a bunch of whiney asses.

Just because we've spent time, money and effort on crafting complex armies simply does not give us the right to complain when GW gives us the privilege of using a new Codex.

BYE

Great review, HBMC, I really enjoyed it!

I totally agree that the new codex sounds like a pile of crap. But it occurred to me that the crap has a silver lining. I can actually play with my berzerkers again. I shelved them for pretty much the entire duration of the previous codex because in that incarnation they were unplayable. Deploy them and watch them run around in random directions for 6 turns leaping in and out of vehicles willy-nilly and roll some dice. But now I can actually decide what they do! What a novel thought. I might actually play 40K again. Maybe.

I also don't get the Apocalypse hype. If the core game has gotten crappy, how does using more models make it better?

Well, I did my part today for Lost and the Damned.

I explained to the head of GW in the US, and his boss from the UK, why putting out a LatD army list in white dwarf would make lots of people happy, and make them and me lots of money selling models.

Hopefully the small seed will grow to a mighty tree. And maybe the mighty tree will sprout mutants and plague zombies, and chaos infested tanks and... well , you get the idea.

Well done Mikhalia.

Crawling Chaos - I'm actually looking forward to Apocalypse for much the same reason I looked forward to (and enjoyed) Cities of Death. It's something a little different and, the best part, all the best bits we can pilfer for our own ruleset!!

BYE

I don't have a copy, but I think the two pro has to be for folks starting a new chaos army. The new codex encourages more of a buffet style to army comp, and less restricted by legion rules. Assuming that for every person that loved legion rules there is a person who always wanted to create their own warband, it's a wash. A new player I know is incredibly exicted, because the 1k sons, berzerkers, bikes, and raptors they bought can all be used together. Of course, it could before, but the emphasis seems to be encouraging that.

Beyond that, I'm guessing the big pro is that some of the toughest builds on the tournament circuit are gone. Iron Warriors in particular is not going to be mourned outside of it's boltgun and yellow home. Certain troublesome units, such as infiltrating speed lords and the popular glaive prince are also removed.

I think it really is Codex: Naughty Space Marines, but the focus is back on space marines, and less on the lords, daemons, etc.

Those that have played it seem to love it, and barring other evidence that has to count for something. I feel incredible sympathy for all players with extensively converted armies, because the loss of legion rules has hit you harder than any rule change since the release of 3rd edition. There has never been an invalidation of units, removal of options, elimination of wargear, or a loss of diversity on this magnitude since the BBB lists.

On the other hand, while I'm leery about this new book, I intend to read it and play it before I dismiss it. I understand and empathize with the haters, and I want to mail GW nude photos of Boris Yeltsin just to punish them for what they did to loyal vets, but I would strongly discourage any players from selling armies before really giving the new codex a try. In economics it's called a sunk cost: the army is paid for, and while you might not get the value out of it you planned, you will still get value for little or no future investment.

The best way to punish GW for this new codex is to play your old army, with those models, but never spend a dime on new models. This new codex had one goal: make money. Denying them that is the only victory left.

Posted By mikhaila on 08/14/2007 9:22 PM

Well, I did my part today for Lost and the Damned.

I explained to the head of GW in the US, and his boss from the UK, why putting out a LatD army list in white dwarf would make lots of people happy, and make them and me lots of money selling models.

Hopefully the small seed will grow to a mighty tree. And maybe the mighty tree will sprout mutants and plague zombies, and chaos infested tanks and... well , you get the idea.

I don't understand why GW would ever think of cancelling LATD.  It's a freaking money maker for GW.  They can sell bitz, sprues, and models from a dozen ranges (IG, CSM, SM, Nid, Ork, Necromunda, empire, VC, O&G, skaven, Chaos, beastmen, epic, and inquisitor), and I wager their bitz service has to be one of the most profitable arms for GW.  Every army is converted, every army is expensive, and every player is an enthusiastic ambassador for the game.

 

Plus the list is weak.....I will miss beating up on foolish people who think it is a good one to play.

I wouldn't say the list was weak. It had a lot of toys that grew folks away from the real power: mutants. Cheap, shambling hordes of plague zombies that are fearless? Good stuff. Traitors for fire support: yes please! Obiliterators for funsies! Daemons to taste!

No other list combined hard units with horde as effectively as LatD. Was it a tournament winner? Not really. But it was always fun to play against, and only time constraints prevented me from building one of my own. Now I'm waiting for a Daemon Legion.

Hmm,

The lack of detail and apparent dumbing down of the rules (hence the dullness) seems to be an underlying current of the newer revisions of codecies.

There are two factions apparently (with a few on the fence) that seem to be developing out there, one that thinks that an easy game that has reduced variables and streamlined concepts (more so than what we currently have) will expand the game to people that have not previously been able to play the game and also make it easier for people to pick up the game cold turkey and be able to have a chance at playing it.

I think all of us (well most) of us can agree that GW has taken this view. The whole concept that the wargear section has been made into (IE so a 5 year old can understand it, this has been commented on a few times prior) only emphasies the idea that the game designers are no longer aiming there rules and designs at people that enjoy the system, the style and 'fun' that goes along with well thought out and variable (NB: not random in this sense) entities that can be taken on the battefield that essentially are moderated by a scale system called 'points'.

The other warfaring faction (which HBMC has been the greatest advocate for) is the one where the rules, troops, fluff, art and game is about flavour and fun. It's not destroying the rules but more importantly the blood sweat and tears (and lets face it, thousands upo thousands of dollars) that the avid gamers (Us, well if your posting on dakka your an above average gamer generally) but it's trying to fis the rules and problems that will stem from any human made ruleset or codex.

This is the problem,
The second faction (those wanting a fun and varying game) have seen that aspect of the game which they held dearest to be spat on and beaten by those who seem to not understand the reason that people play this game and will go ahead and buy those stupidly expensive figures from GW in the first place.

The lack of variety in this codex is the most stark reality that underlies where GW I think is heading (and why I don't like the rules, precepts, units and direction that this project and company is heading)

DAEMONS:
Before a varied example of creatures with obvious different traits and alignments (well there were 4 gods and a few other one's thrown in). There was flavour, obvious differences and importantly different (well designed and expensive) models for each of these. This not only has been removed (I'm not suggesting that the previous daemons were perfect, but fun and not as dull as the current breed of big Vs small daemons)

As HBMC pointed out,
Bloodthirsters are now as powerful as a keeper of secrets in combat (and ironically from what I can see, as good at psychic powers - Please correct me if I'm wrong, oh please say it's not so!!!)

This is the outrage.
Why!?!?

Why make Chaos marines plus litererally (I mean not even as they don't have access to the nice stuff that makes marines - No donkey cannons and cyclones, no plasma and multi-meltas and most importantly no snpiers)

I mean,
This is turning into marines minus (with a few expensive things tacked on)


DAEMON PRINCES:
Does anyone like the idea of every daemon prince being Slaanesh (regardless of the army that is follwoing it) with a whip of some sort. I mean they went from having so many options (which I liked, but will acknowledge it annoyed others) to 3 options, 3!!!!

What the, you mean that I can now have
wings or not
mark or not
that stupid lash or not

How does anyone come up with this idea and think (Hmm, I like this game and it will make for interesting and fun armies and tournaments)

THEY DON'T, they are operating on a different paradigm.


This is the sad thing about this codex,
this is why we have written our own rules,
this is why HBMC dislikes this codex (Hopefully not too much of a strawman :-)
this is why I agree,

The rules don't have to be perfect (man, I know they wont be - If they were I would be utterly bemused at their genious) but they should be fun,

This is a game (this is a good game)
this codex doesn't seem to enhance that (with the exception of the superb additions to the fluff - Which I will like many other congratulate the GW staff - This is great)


But make the game fun,
don't dumb it down this much (I mean if we are painting and collecting we can handle a little if not a huge amount more choice in the list)

I mean,
1Ksons being AP3 everywhere (what the, talk about a pendulum swing)
Khorne being reduced to an insane vampire that likes getting his hands dirty.



Sad stuff,
I mean I see why people could like this,
but the direction this codex is showing is what is most disturbing,


And if we think it will all be fixed by a Daemon Codex (we are going to be really disappointed) it's just going to be the same thing (otherwise who would ever use this bland excuse of paper to make a list ever again)

Well,
unless they want a greater daemon of generic, 6 1Ksons units with Bolts and maybe an unarmoured spawn for some illogcal reason,

Again,
sad.

:-(

Wow that was an eloquent way of trashing people who have a different opinion of what makes a game fun, and whether rules not choices to use certain units or not create unique and fluff driven lists. Some people will like this codex others will not. I suspect that once some of the people on both groups play with the codex they will have a different opinion some for better some for worse.

Here's something else that occurred to me. Aren't the new daemon rules pretty much the same as the rules for daemon adversaries in the Daemonhunters codex? I don't have that here, so I can't check it, but it seems pretty much the same. What a cop out. As it is now, bloodletters are my favorite unit in the game. After next month, there's no way I'd use them. Granted maybe they were too good for a troop slot, but they could have made them elite or fast attack (because of summoning) to make up for that. I guess they thought that spikey marines needed scouts.

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 10:17 PM
Wow that was an eloquent way of trashing people who have a different opinion of what makes a game fun, and whether rules not choices to use certain units or not create unique and fluff driven lists. Some people will like this codex others will not. I suspect that once some of the people on both groups play with the codex they will have a different opinion some for better some for worse.

All I can say to that is...

fair enough

:-)

The old adversaries were 20 pts per, similar stat line but WS, S, T, and I were +/- 1 from the new daemons (roll a d3 per ability). They also had instability on LD8. They did have either Visage or Talons randomly. That's a unit that's totally dependent on the rolls. WS and I 5 with rending makes them awesome, but S3 without rending will be hardpressed to do much.

One feature that not enough people recognize about the new daemons is that they are fearless and T4, making them ideal for small (I'm thinking six bodies per squad) counter assault, tie up, or objective holding units.  They're cheap enough, at only 78pts per unit of six, and while they can't be counted on to do any damage, they can survive small amounts of shooting.

Polonious,

I agree entirely with your comments,
but that's what is so diappointing.

Out of the immortal hordes of deamons, they have been reduced to a mere second thought that may or may not be useful at holding an objective (due to summoning) but will be as good as a marine that ran out of bullets and took their power pants off while in combat.

Just seems wrong,
bloodletters getting minced in combat,
deamonette calvary being slow,
screamers being kept on the ground for no apparent reason,

Or the worst possiblity of it all,
these daemons no longer exist at all.


Yes, they are still tactically useful, but in terms of what we had compared to what has replaced it, I think the latter is the one that is lacking.

Well, I feel about the same way you do. The loss of variety (and effectiveness) is a blow. I had always wanted a daemonbomb, and I finally started building one when the first rumors were oozing out. Knowing that the list would probobly be invalidated, I built anyway, and I don't regret it. I figure I'll use the current codex when I'm allowed for fun, I'll build a new/different army with the new book (i'm liking the idea of a neo-rhino rush: tons of marines, bolters, ccws, fists, meltas, and 35pt rhinos), and I'll try to make my old list work as well as possible in the new reality.

I'm lucky in that I assumed the worst when the rumors were floating two months ago, and so I'm not surprised or shocked. In terms of the stages of grief, I've moved unto acceptance. At this point, I'm trying to figure out how to make bikes, lesser daemons, a unit of 1k sons, a unit of world eaters with bolters (old school models), some oblits and a scattered heavy weapons into an army.

I'm thinking about building 3 squads of 4 termies, all with combi meltas. This is 420pts, for 4 units of 2+/5++ deep striking goodness with meltas. shootier than IG drop vets, they're way more survivabale and not awful in assault.

The way to approach this new codex is to treat it like a new army, and any units you can recycle from your old army are a bonus. It sucks, but it's about the most positive spin I can put on it. I think there's some good stuff in there, and when we find it, things won't be so bad.

To all people believing that a forthcoming Codex: Daemons will save the day - you are messing irrational hopes with a sad present. There's no guarantee that it will change anything, nor even that it will change anything for the better.

Here is an analogy: Please send me some money and I may give you back a random amount of money in the future. Interested?

I disagree with Yak's statement on balance either. Balance is harder to achieve when complexity arise, but that's what game design skills are for. If your only mean of achieving balance is through simplification, you are simply grossly incompetent as a game designer. Moreover, the now-dull Chaos codex is not any better balanced than the previous one. Wait for all those twin-winged-daemon-princes-with-lash-of-submission HQ armies, it will make you sick.

I think we are very much on the same wavelength,

However,
instead of embracing the new rules and trying to strain some useful and fun things out of it, our group has taken the opinion that we could do a better job with the rules (well in general)

So when I and HBMC (same group) look at these rules and we say.
My goodness I'm glad we have made revisited, all of these good things (Rhino's dropping in price and minimum squads) if they prove to be good and fun and useful can find it into our rules (the advantage of control)

But,
we on the whole seem to all have had the same reaction (why would we even think about using this compared to what we have), almost an exercise in futility (but that is too harsh as there are definately some good points and good fluff)

Interesting too see if people play this varied (i really hope so) but I do seem to think that it is more likely to be a set army style that is just way better than the rest.

I hope I'm wrong,
I just don't see myself and so many people who wanted (and really hoped) they wouldn't go in this direction.

Kotrin:

the 2 lash princes and 6 1KSons with Bolts of change will be very widely used,
so much AP3 and AP1.

The balance is about the same and that is because they simplified the models (and not the points and battle system) doesn't really matter what they do there will be balance issues (people will always want to power play so certain things will never have an inherant value in all siutations)

but very good point about being annoyed with lack of balance,
it has only delayed that annoyance (because we are all lamenting the loss of the daemonic legions atm)

I'm really intrigued by the re-write you guys are doing. I'd flipped through the rules, and they seem pretty robust. One of the greatest advantages of amateur rules writing is the ability to shamelessly and completely filch great mechanics from other systems. I'm not saying you're not doing good work of your own, but a few of the influences seem pretty strong, and HBMC has commented on pillaging rules from supplements and the like.

In my area, I'm lucky to find players, let alone a group that has that kind of motivation, so I'm pretty content to truck along with whatever GW is swilling me.

Honestly, outside of tough guy tournament situations (which occur at what, maybe 2 dozen RTTs and GTs annually in the US?), the average gamer loves the new eldar codex, and the chaos book seems to mirror it. I think we'll see a lot of variety, both within and between armies. While the Legion rules were incredible, the ability to create a personalized warband for a great hero (even if they're all DPs of slaanesh...) is a neat narrative hook for creating an army. I'm sure casual gamers will fiddle with the douple DP/lash combo, and than like a lot of gimmic armies, move on to other fun stuff.  If the combo is as strong as we fear, it'll probobly be a staple of RTT armies, but the fact that the three strongest armies have anti-psyker abilities (SM, nids, and eldar) makes the lash more and more similar to Fear of Darkness: potentially devestating, but only against some armies.  The fact that it's the same handful of armies that they both bone (DE, non-mech tau, IG), I'm not thrilled, but there's no 3+ model that enough guardsmen won't eventually kill.

While I believe that the old codex could have been toned down and balanced without being gutted like a river trout, I fully intend to give the new book an honest chance to impress me.

Wow.  Thanks for the review, H.B.M.C.  I would say that it saves me $$$, but I will pick it up and see it for myself.

But, being a LatD player, I'm sorely disappointed.  I was thinking if the codex was any good, I would just (reluctantly) switch over to CSM.  But, now I'm not so sure that is what I want to do with my LatD models.  And no, I don't want to do a "Counts As Army."  That is not why I built my WHOLE army.

What kills me is the people that say that we need to "suck it up" and just play.  Hummmm...  What's the term:  "Bite me."  That is also directed at GeeW.  I like variety.  I loved the idea that if I'm going to play a CSM army, I would be surprised to see what was across from me.  Not knowing what I'm going to face is the challenge in making a "balanced" army.  But, from what I'm reading, cookie-cutter armies are the way of the future.

I guess my hope for 40K lays in the possibility of  a "good" DE codex.

I guess my chances are about as good as H.B.M.C. being "nice".     Oh, and by the way, H.B.M.C., you been sigged.

Posted By untitled on 08/14/2007 4:16 PM
My Exhaustive Review of the new Chaos Codex:

Its dull, not very well balanced and most of the variety has gone.

I don't think it really merits further discussion.

Untitled, you now have a title.


You will now be known as "Mentos, the Truth Maker".

Anything else is just two sides bickering back and forth.

Poster #1 "You're stupid!"
Poster #2  "No! You're stupid!"

Ad nausaeum until the mods decide to close the thread, which by my watch, wont be too long from now....

Posted By Yad on 08/14/2007 9:29 AM
I'm with you on this on H.B.M.C. I just recently bought (4 months ago) a chaos army off of Ebay, not having a clue about the new direction the Chaos codex was going in. I've got about 30 Deamonettes, 10 Plaguebearers, 10 Bloodletters, and a bloodthirster staring back at me now. I think I need to model them giving me the finger.... I've also got about 30 or 40 regular CSMs that I'd give to my daughter to play with if they weren't a choking hazard.

Ha! You bought my army from ebay? Sucker!!!

Just kidding.

Shut the thread down? C'mon! This is fun. It's a discussion, and I doubt I've ever seen one grow so fast on Dakka before. And I even achieved my original goal for this thread - I've been sigged!

Ok, that last part is a joke, I didn't really start the thread just to get sigged. I started it because generic Daemons make Baby Jesus cry.

BYE

Hmm,
well this makes two times your getting sigged

Oh, I dont mind it either myself, but when little kids want to play with sharp pointy sticks with the big boys, invariably mommy gets involved when she sees little timmy crying because his feelers got hurt.

Posted By Hellfury on 08/15/2007 1:09 AM
Oh, I dont mind it either myself, but when little kids want to play with sharp pointy sticks with the big boys, invariably mommy gets involved because little timmy is crying because his feelers got hurt.

Feelers?

Are we comparing the pro-Codex: When Good Marines Go Bad crowd to insects now?

BYE

Insects have feelers? I thought they had antennae. *shrug* Ya learn something new everyday, I suppose.

Well,

in all honesty some have both,
but I don't think that was the issue,

Um,
power weapons....

OK the issue of v3.5 vs v4 has been beaten into the ground.  So let's try a really hard question...

Is it better or worse than this book?

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 08/15/2007 1:47 AM

Is it better or worse than this book?

The same.

BYE

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:39 AM

Posted By efarrer on 08/14/2007 8:39 AM

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

I think so.  The thread with the link got closed though.  I think blackshirted Warseer gangs are going to people's houses and searching for any who dare critique the new codex.

I don't hate the new book, but it's a slap in the face to veteran gamers, and we're certainly allowed a few weeks to kvetch about it.

Am I the only one who prefers Dakka's policy of keeping closed threads around, rather than deleting them?

I like that as well. They can be some of the best threads to read

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/15/2007 3:30 AM

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 08/15/2007 1:47 AM

Is it better or worse than this book?

The same.

BYE

CHEATER!

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 9:12 PM

The people with the hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of Daemons, and those of us with now-invalid Death Guard, 1KSons, World Eater, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Night Lord, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion and LatD armies - we're just a bunch of whiney asses.

To say that all of these armies are invalid is a gross over simplification.

DG, 1Ksons, World Eater, and Emperor's Children lists can easily be played.  They play different, but so be it. 

If you want to play your old style alpha legion, you have the option of taking three chosen units for infiltration and lots of your "worthless" daemons.  You did lose cultists, so I can understand some complaints here.

If you want to play Word Bearers - take standard "mark of glory" and tons of daemons.  Your thousands of dollars worth of daemons are not wasted.  They can still be played and they can still be effective.  You have essentially lost nothing with this army.  Again, they will play different, but so be it.

As for IW, you need to make a choice now on havocs vs oblits or a combination of both.  I would say that besides LatD, that IW lost the most as far as making all of their models carry over and still be playable.  Not that it is a bad thing, but still it would suck.

LatD did suffer the most and this one I agree with you that GW needs to include them somewhere. 

I am thinking that since demons are all going to be "counts as", if I make that LatD army I was thinking of, I am just going to replace all the icons with PokeBalls , and try and get cheap Pokemon figs and put then on bases. Maybe draw some extra fangs on them...

I wonder if the old demon models are going to get suddenly cheaper, since they don't really function, or if they will just be used with WHFB and stay the same price.

Don't anyone dare shut this thread down. These are the threads that keep me coming back to DakkaDakka. Dakka is like an island of distilled hate in a sea of kool-aid drinking mouth breathers. It invigorates me to know that there is such discontent out there.

On a serious note, Apocalypse is very worrisome to me. It just screams of "We have no idea how to fix this horrible game we've made so we'll distract everyone with an expansion that ignores all the core problems of the game" YAY!!!!

You think it's fun playing a 1750 point game with Chaos? Wait until Apocalypse comes along and there are 27 Lash Princes sitting on the other side of the table from you with SUPER DUPER Strength D weapons that can kill Khorne and Tzeentch and Jesus and Buddha all in one shot!!!111one!!` Lets take 6 hours to set up our 9000 point armies and remove 6500 points of them after the first shooting phase!!

The models are cool, the sales on massive boxed sets are cool. The rules and the prospect of having to shell out more moneys for a rulebook is absolute crap. I'm done slamming the lame chaos codex, I've moved on to slamming the Apocalypse book. Criticising the Chaos Codex is so last Monday.

I'll absolutely agree that the LatD are getting screwed in general by GW. They always have been, even when they did get their (pretty cool) list. But I don't lay that at the feet of Codex: CSM...because that would be slowed. Codex: CSM hasn't been the host of the LatD list since, mostly ever. But I agree that LatD need real attention...much more so than a Daemon Codex.

As for comments of "make up rules" or "get over it"...you have no other choice unless you choose to man up and own up to your threats and leave the hobby. GW did not promise you DICK when you bought CSM 3.5 and/or 60 cultists. You made that decision, notably AFTER GW unceremoniously DUMPED the Squats, so you knew what you were getting into.

When I spent my metric butt-ton of money of 13th Company conversion bits and started to build, I knew I might get boned in the future. But I love my army, so I'll find a way to make it work. That's my conscious decision. If this new Codex destroyed your 2000 dollar army that you invested time into (which hopefully you enjoyed, since there was no guarantee it would always be viable), then sell it, cut your losses and leave the hobby. Or stay, keep the army, and you have earned your right to complain, even if it makes you look like a glutton for punishment. But don't drop in the "woe is me" argument, or at least be funny when you do it. Otherwise, it's pathetic.

Dakka, more and more, is a place where folks hold a candle and refuse to light it, because they'd rather curse the darkness. Rail on GW all you want...I don't care. They are a faceless company designed to make money. There is NO social bargain. But quit pretending it's personal.

It's not show friends...it's show BUSINESS.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 10:05 PM
I wouldn't say the list was weak. It had a lot of toys that grew folks away from the real power: mutants. Cheap, shambling hordes of plague zombies that are fearless? Good stuff. Traitors for fire support: yes please! Obiliterators for funsies! Daemons to taste!

No other list combined hard units with horde as effectively as LatD. Was it a tournament winner? Not really. But it was always fun to play against, and only time constraints prevented me from building one of my own. Now I'm waiting for a Daemon Legion.

That's what gets me about the LatD list.  It's very flexible and diverse, and can be tooled up to be decently competitive without ever being broken.  Considering the list allies with different codicies, etc., it's quite a feat for GW.  LatD is exactly the kind of list GW should be creating, and instead they can't wait to cancel it. 

Posted By mikhaila on 08/14/2007 9:22 PM

Well, I did my part today for Lost and the Damned.

I explained to the head of GW in the US, and his boss from the UK, why putting out a LatD army list in white dwarf would make lots of people happy, and make them and me lots of money selling models.

Thanks Mike!  GW may be hard of hearing, but they do listen when you yell loud enough.    I'm trying to do some yelling of my own on various forums.

I think a WD list would make a ton of sense.  It'd be like a new army release that doesn't require a bunch of new boxed sets or shelf space.  If that doesn't happen, I'm hoping for at least some coverage in the second Chaos book.  But I don't like the way the winds seem to be blowing there...

Posted By Inquisitor_Malice on 08/15/2007 5:14 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 9:12 PM

The people with the hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of Daemons, and those of us with now-invalid Death Guard, 1KSons, World Eater, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Night Lord, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion and LatD armies - we're just a bunch of whiney asses.

To say that all of these armies are invalid is a gross over simplification.

DG, 1Ksons, World Eater, and Emperor's Children lists can easily be played.  They play different, but so be it. 

If you want to play your old style alpha legion, you have the option of taking three chosen units for infiltration and lots of your "worthless" daemons.  You did lose cultists, so I can understand some complaints here.

If you want to play Word Bearers - take standard "mark of glory" and tons of daemons.  Your thousands of dollars worth of daemons are not wasted.  They can still be played and they can still be effective.  You have essentially lost nothing with this army.  Again, they will play different, but so be it.

As for IW, you need to make a choice now on havocs vs oblits or a combination of both.  I would say that besides LatD, that IW lost the most as far as making all of their models carry over and still be playable.  Not that it is a bad thing, but still it would suck.

LatD did suffer the most and this one I agree with you that GW needs to include them somewhere. 

HAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAH!!!  Daemons not wasted...priceless!!  Oh, you also forgot to mention that the Word Bearers lost a really great conversion with the Demagogue disappearing into the Warp...maybe he'll show up in 2008.

As far as Iron Warriors go, it's best not to dwell on that Legion.  IW was pretty much the only Chaos army that not only stayed true to the fluff, AND had great rules, and was a blast to play.  Now people who shelled out cash for the Basilisks and the Iron Warrior Warsmith (forgot about that one did ya? not that anyone really played it) are left praying that they can still use them when LaTD rolls around.

What GW should have done, to appease both the competitive tourney player and the player that loves the hobby/fluff/variety/etc is to create a Vanilla Chaos Codex (which is what we have now come September), and the real Codex (full of Daemons that actually do something, Legions, you know, what makes Chaos chaos).  At the tournaments, armies can then be restricted by codex.  Everyone who wants to play Chaos, must use the crappy vanilla chaos codex.  Everyone that wants to enjoy playing chaos uses the other Chaos codex, the one that doesn't suck and invalidate my entire army.

dienekes96, christ, people are unhappy! They're entitled to express a negative opinion on the damn product! I don't get these posts whining about whining. It's pointless!
I'm selling my chaos army, but i still want to be able to express my disappointment with the current direction GW are taking. It's a common human reaction!
I think what they are doing is BAD business, and I want to see them succeed, not least because I enjoy many of their other games!

I'm about 14 pages behind on this, but the comments that tournament play is forcing designers to take away options really ticked me off.

There is absolutely no reason why designers shouldn't be able to design a balanced codex that allows for a variety of different playable lists. The problem is the designers can't seem to see (after 'extensive playtesting') what is obvious to players after they have read the codex for the first time. Nids one of the easiest examples. They have a potentially huge variety of upgrades and abilities, that are all effectively moot thanks largely in part to the dakkafex. Even worse, its not like it was hard to spot, or to know how it should be designed. (or how blindingly obvious it is that most lists can't field enough firepower to cut through 7-8 monsterous creatures)

Eldar was worse. It was almost entirely removal of options. (much like the new chaos codex) And guess what, people still figured out the powerbuild for Eldar within 5 minutes of reading the Codex. (In fact, I think it was even more obvious than before what was and what was not good) Falcons and Harlequins were the new it. But this time, they removed many of the extra customizability options. Casual took a big hit, and any chance of a secondary tourney list (like Nid stealers) was thrown out the window in order to 'balance' what is now considered one of the top 3 tournament lists.

Chaos are more of the same. Removal of options and list diversity, with blindingly obvious choices for what is, and what isn't playable at a tournament setting.

Posted By Da Boss on 08/15/2007 6:36 AM
dienekes96, christ, people are unhappy! They're entitled to express a negative opinion on the damn product! I don't get these posts whining about whining. It's pointless!
I'm selling my chaos army, but i still want to be able to express my disappointment with the current direction GW are taking. It's a common human reaction!
I think what they are doing is BAD business, and I want to see them succeed, not least because I enjoy many of their other games!

It's not pointless.  Much as the whining posts makes those members feel happy, pointing out how moronic many of the hyperbolic comments are makes me feel happy.  So my "whine about whine" posts are exactly as useful as the countless "whine" posts themselves.

And by all means, folks should express their displeasure.  I even supported that.  But don't try and pretend they have been "conned" or that GW has wronged them.  That's where I call complete BS, and I'll continue to do so.

I agree it's bad business...just as I agree that a REAL LatD list would sell a bazillion models.