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Post by: Manchu
For my 800th post, I present you with an argument:
The Ultramarines don’t receive a great deal of support around Dakka. Many claim that they are too generalized, too perfect, and ultimately too boring. This critique, although undoubtedly founded in the disproportionate amount of attention GW showers upon the boys in blue, is fair in some respects.
Since Third Edition, the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium has grown ever darker. The forces of the Imperium, which we could take for granted as the good guys back in Rogue Trader, subscribe to a code of morality that we in the real world would have a hard time identifying as socially acceptable much less praiseworthy. And yet 40k fans love it. I personally think it’s primarily because we have so many other sci-fi franchise ramming conventional contemporary morals (noble though they may be) down our throats. It can therefore be refreshing exercise in imagination to immerse oneself into a world where love, tolerance, and openness are sure-fire ways to doom the species. I also think that we recognize a lot of our own flawed proclivities in the grim darkness and can healthily deal with them as imaginary, not letting ourselves become bigots and hatemongers in real life. In any case, the gothic horror of ignorance and constant war fueled by religious hate is part of what makes 40k a lot of fun.
Ultramarines do not fit into that paradigm very neatly.
Even before Roboute Guilliman was found by the inhabitants of Macragge, that planet was not a particularly terrible place (unlike Fenris, Caliban, etc, etc) but actually an already civilized and quite peaceful planet. Guilliman, like the other Primarchs, quickly rose to power. Unlike the others, his only obstacle (or perhaps rather his path) to leadership was a single attempted coup by his adoptive father’s co-consul. Guilliman reversed the coup and took power himself so that when the Emperor arrived all was perfectly in order. Macragge was justly ruled and the populace was healthy, wealthy, and completely obedient. And that’s pretty much the way it’s been ever since, except now Macragge is the capital of a healthy, wealthy, and obedient sub-empire. In other words, the Ultramarines seem to be beyond criticism. They always do everything perfectly for all the right reasons. How terribly boring.
But maybe not. I have not given the Ultramarines a lot of credit in the past but now that I think of it, they are one of the only (if not the only) example of how the Imperium can actually work to Humanity’s benefit in more than just assuring the survival and dominance of the species. Maybe the world of 40k still needs an obvious good guy so that, as long as there are Ultramarines on our side, the rest of us Imperials can at least make the claim that we’re somehow better than Chaos raiders and Dark Eldar slavers.
tl;dr Ultramarines maintain the moral order of the 40k universe
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
I too like the Ultramarines. They my be generic and every screaming 12-year-old has an army of them, but I still like them for being about the only morally correct faction in 40k.
I mean, being a dick to the good guys by playing as Chaos or Necrons is all well and good, but there's also something appealing about being the goodytwoshoes heroic faction.
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Post by: Smashotron
Courage and Honour, Brothers!
Chivalry still exists in this dark millennium!
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Ultramarines = Superman.
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Post by: Manchu
I'm surprised at the positive reception this has gotten . . . so far.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Orkeosaurus wrote:Ultramarines = Superman.
THIS
Manchu wrote:I'm surprised at the positive reception this has gotten . . . so far.
I wouldn't call this positive.
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Post by: Manchu
Well, Orkeosaurus will have to elaborate. I took it as a positive comparison.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
The ultrasmurffs do have a nice crib. And they have decent enough fluff. But I will always thirst for something different. Too many people go for them, there is too much about them, too exploited and controlled for me to be attracted to them.
I will always go for some chapter with a little more mystery, a little less coverage. Pretty much ANY other race/chapter fits that description.
I will die or worse *shudder* collect Fantasy, before I am corrupted by the Ultrasmurfs.
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Post by: LunaHound
Ppl play what they can relate to.
Ppl that are grim goth and emo , will subconsciously pick armies which reflects that.
Im going to be burnt on a steak now arnt i >.>
Ppl dont like valiant heroes anymore , only emo ones like Batman , Prototype , etc etc
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Manchu wrote:Well, Orkeosaurus will have to elaborate. I took it as a positive comparison.
When I see some one compare something to Superman its generally a bad thing, that may just be me and the people I know though...
Emperors Faithful wrote:
I will die or worse *shudder* collect Fantasy, before I am corrupted by the Ultrasmurfs.
Hey Fantasy is pretty fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: LunaHound wrote:Ppl play what they can relate to.
Ppl are grim and emo , and will subconsciously pick armies which reflects that.
Im going to be burnt on a steak now arnt i >.>
Yes, yes you are, just not by me I really don't care
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Post by: Manchu
Lunahound! In my 40k Background threadz??? I'm honored. *bows*
So, Luna, what's your favorite Chapter?
@EF: I get what you're saying. So much of their stuff has been thoroughly laid out by GW. But I kind of like that. I prefer GW's fluff to fan made stuff when it comes to SM chapters.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
@LunaHound: well, yeah. Kind of. I collect IG, BA and Witch Hunters, but I would hardly say I'm goth OR religeous. Also, batman is cool. Don't dis him. (I'm kidding, take the piss out of him as much as you want. But not the future one, k?)
@BrotherStynier: You are lost to us. Back! Back from whence you came!
I honestly think Fantasy has LESS tactics than 40k. It just involves more counting.
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Post by: LunaHound
My favorite chapter..... if i must choose. Crimson Fist and Ultra Marines only because of their color scheme .
Oh , i like Batman especially Dark Knight ( but he is still emo o_o )
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Superman and the Ultramarines are hated for the same reasons.
Good at everything, always win, bright colors, very popular, but most importantly neither one has some sort of dark, edgy side. There's no brooding or moral ambiguity; they do what's right, and know it.
For a lot of people that kind of idealism is seen as simplistic or childish.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Its easier to loose based off your list I think, but it does require alot of tactics. Like knowing when to charge, when to flank, which abilities to use and when also when to fall back.
As for the Smurfs, I just don't like how over the top they make Calgar I mean catching and stopping the Wailing Doom in his power fist...
Also how every Companies Captain is already named by GW.
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Post by: Manchu
@Luna: So what does that say about you? What do you relate to, lol?
Well, I'm disappointed that it's not Spess Pupz but good choices. I like the Crimson Fists a lot, too. I wrote this because I've been thinking of playing a codex chapter for some time and am having trouble deciding between them and the Ultramarines.
@all: Stynier isn't lost. He's found . . . Chaos!
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
The only thing triky about fantasy is measuring the distance in your mind between units. That's it. If you got that down pat, then you're set.
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Post by: Manchu
Orkeosaurus wrote:Superman and the Ultramarines are hated for the same reasons.
Good at everything, always win, bright colors, very popular, but most importantly neither one has some sort of dark, edgy side. There's no brooding or moral ambiguity; they do what's right, and know it.
For a lot of people that kind of idealism is seen as simplistic or childish.
I thought so. I still call it a positive comparison. I wonder how young you have to be to call that sort of idealism childish, lol?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Manchu wrote:So what does that say about you? What do you relate to, lol?
Well, I'm disappointed that it's not Spess Pupz but good choices. I like the Crimson Fists a lot, too. I wrote this because I've been thinking of playing a codex chapter for some time and am having trouble deciding between them and the Ultramarines.
Stynier isn't lost. He's found . . . Chaos!
Rather unsurprisingly that is my Fantasy Army. It has very little shooting which is why I went for it, my 40k armies are all about shooting.
Emperors Faithful wrote:The only thing triky about fantasy is measuring the distance in your mind between units. That's it. If you got that down pat, then you're set.
It might just be the kind of people you played with? The couple times I have gotten to play the game was either won lost or ended in a draw because of strategy. The draw also because I forgot how charging works in fantasy so I failed to bring my Chaos Knights into play. Flanking helped save that game from being a loss.
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Post by: LunaHound
Manchu wrote:@Luna: So what does that say about you? What do you relate to, lol?
I hate space marines . The only reason i even look at them is from a hobby perspective , i like some of their miniatures.
Fluff wise, i hate every single one of them including the whole Emperium
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
@Brother Stynier: Okay, Okay! We have befouled this thread enough with your praise of fantasy.
There is no such thing as "perfection in character", the beauty is in those who try their damn hardest.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Brother Stynier: Okay, Okay! We have befouled this thread enough with your praise of fantasy.
Fine then we will speak of it no more.
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Post by: Manchu
LunaHound wrote:I hate space marines . The only reason i even look at them is from a hobby perspective , i like some of their miniatures.
Fluff wise, i hate every single one of them including the whole Emperium
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Post by: Sternguard_rock
All there battles are over exated eg.:
Battle for Marrage: Only 10 gaunts, 3 genestealers and 1 hive tryant.
Battle for Black Reach: 20 boyz and warboss
as you can tell I hate the Ultrasmufs and there fluff.
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Post by: Manchu
Sternguard_rock wrote:as you can tell I hate the Ultrasmufs and there fluff.
And have read all about them, lol.
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Post by: Canonness Rory
Rowboat Girlyman and his Codex Astartes came closer to destroying the imperium that Horus could have dreamed of. In a time when the imperium was the weakest he put forth the codex astartes and "suggested" that all the other legions conform to it. There was no debate period, there was no changing his "perfect" design, there we no suggestion box, it was conform or not. This divided the space marine legions in a time that required unity. Some chapters balked at the idea of giving up their sovereignty and weakening their legion, most chapters conformed because they feared the consequences for the imperium if they didn't, very few actually agreed with the codex astartes. Robot Beguileman, in his short-sighted foolishness disguised as foresight, almost became Horus 2.0.
In other news, GW needs to make his name less easy to make fun of and easier to spell.
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Post by: Manchu
I was wondering when the Codex question would come up.
To understand the the issue you have to frame it properly. Guilliman's insistence on the Codex was not simply based on his own ego. As everyone knows, the Codex was meant to split the Legions into Chapters, each of which would have a much harder time threatening the Imperium. The issue was about pride. Pride had caused the fall of each of the traitors and Guilliman wanted to make sure this would not happen again. Asking the loyalist Primarchs to put their own pride and ambition, made incarnate in their legions, aside so as to better protect the Imperium was a symbol of their loyalty. It is certainly a shame that the other Primarchs did not see things this way at first. If you ask me, the fact that it almost came to civil war illustrates how bad the situation was--how easily another heresy could have unfolded. But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus. I think this vindicates Guilliman and proves both his wisdom and his loyalty to the Emperor. The others may have been loyal at the time but they weren't as level headed. Who knows where such foolhardiness would have eventually carried them?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Manchu wrote:I was wondering when the Codex question would come up.
To understand the the issue you have to frame it properly. Guilliman's insistence on the Codex was not simply based on his own ego. As everyone knows, the Codex was meant to split the Legions into Chapters, each of which would have a much harder time threatening the Imperium. The issue was about pride. Pride had caused the fall of each of the traitors and Guilliman wanted to make sure this would not happen again. Asking the loyalist Primarchs to put their own pride and ambition, made incarnate in their legions, aside so as to better protect the Imperium was a symbol of their loyalty. It is certainly a shame that the other Primarchs did not see things this way at first. If you ask me, the fact that it almost came to civil war illustrates how bad the situation was--how easily another heresy could have unfolded. But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus. I think this vindicates Guilliman and proves both his wisdom and his loyalty to the Emperor. The others may have been loyal at the time but they weren't as level headed. Who knows where such foolhardiness would have eventually carried them?
And you're a Space Wolf?
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Post by: Canonness Rory
If Girlyman was at all intelligent, however, he would have realized how easily another Heresy could have happened, instead he almost started one! And as for whether or not it worked, we'll never know, those legions that chose to stay legions have yet to fall to chaos (A certain wolf-themed legion comes to mind) , while quite a few chapters have. It is a matter of opinion whether or not the Codex works, but it was introduced at the WORST time possible and Rowboat didn't give any other primarchs a say, I get the mental image of him slamming a gigantic book onto the ground, explaining that that is how space marines will work from now on, and walking off. Imperial forces actually fired on the Imperial Fists, a chapter that had proven it's loyalty time and time again, because they refused to adhere to the codex at first. Robot chose his own pride over the Imperium, and his own legion (which already adhered to the codex) over the other legions. Had he not been (for all intents and purposes) killed I believe there would have been a second heresy, with him at the helm.
Even if the codex was a good idea, it could have waited until the aftershocks of the Heresy quieted down, and he could have allowed the other chapters time to debate, add, or detract from it, rather than forcing it on them.
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Post by: Manchu
BrotherStynier wrote:And you're a Space Wolf?
Actually, the SW run a lot more like a Chapter than a Legion. Instead of merely having companies, we have GREAT COMPANIES but logical reflection (I'm thinking here of Gwar!'s brilliant post on the subject) leads to the conclusion that the over all strength is actually no greater than about 1000 SM at any given time. While it's true that the Wolves reject the codex overall it is also true that we have not contributed nearly as much to the survival and maintenance of SM overall, either. It seems clear that Russ gave into Guilliman at some level since there was no civil war. I would say that Russ had his priorities straight all through and after the Heresy. I'm not so sure about the Lion or even Rogal Dorn. Dorn seems to have been suffering from major post-traumatic stress. I think this weird side of him survives in the Black Templars.
@Rory: It's really not a matter of opinion whether the Codex works. Ten thousand years have proven that it does. Of course there has been give and take. The possible rigidity of Guilliman in that regard may have indeed been a flaw--but it did not in fact lead to heresy. I don't think that people understand the Horus Heresy very well. Let's put this into some numbers: say the Imperium is functioning at 100% efficiency and loyalty throughout the Great Crusade--that's when the Heresy erupts. Afterwards, the Imperium is bereft of its great leader and its greatest armies are in shambles. Let's say the Imperium is only at about 60% or less by then. Isn't it much more likely that a heresy would have arisen at that point? Especially, as you claim, given that Guilliman chose that point to introduce the Codex and demand adherence? And yet it dd not. Whether or not he was an ass about it (your imagination may be spot on, and is certainly vivid, but it hardly is canonical), Guilliman's idea worked and is still working.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Manchu wrote:BrotherStynier wrote:And you're a Space Wolf?
Actually, the SW run a lot more like a Chapter than a Legion. Instead of merely having companies, we have GREAT COMPANIES but logical reflection (I'm thinking here of Gwar!'s brilliant post on the subject) leads to the conclusion that the over all strength is actually no greater than about 1000 SM at any given time. While it's true that the Wolves reject the codex overall it is also true that we have not contributed nearly as much to the survival and maintenance of SM overall, either. It seems clear that Russ gave into Guilliman at some level since there was no civil war. I would say that Russ had his priorities straight all through and after the Heresy. I'm not so sure about the Lion or even Rogal Dorn. Dorn seems to have been suffering from major post-traumatic stress. I think this weird side of him survives in the Black Templars.
Despite what our friend Gwar may say GW has said that the Space Wolves are larger than your average chapter, far larger. At one point I believe it was said that Grimnar's Company had 3,000 Marines in it. Also Fenris is believed to be much larger than Earth with a population similar to modern Earth, albeit a much more nomadic population. So I would still have to believe that the Space Wolves are larger than the average Chapter and possibly the size of 4 other chapters but we won't know until October.
Russ avoided the Civil war by creating one Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers, that suffered from mutation and was ultimately disbanded.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Codex Astartes wasn't a bad idea.
Remember the Tyrant of Badab, that was ONE chapter (granted they allied with a few others) think of the problems if Huron managed to control a LEGION!
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Well if GW continues on the path its going the Red Corsairs will be legion sized.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
I thought there were only 100 or so left?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
They are regrowing, at least thats what I can assume since they stole all of a loyalist chapter's geneseed.
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Post by: Manchu
BrotherStynier wrote:Despite what our friend Gwar may say GW has said that the Space Wolves are larger than your average chapter, far larger. At one point I believe it was said that Grimnar's Company had 3,000 Marines in it. Also Fenris is believed to be much larger than Earth with a population similar to modern Earth, albeit a much more nomadic population. So I would still have to believe that the Space Wolves are larger than the average Chapter and possibly the size of 4 other chapters but we won't know until October.
I'm not sure of its sources, but Lexicanum has the numbers varying from 150 to 1000 SM per Great Company. I think there is plenty of room for Gwar!'s speculation given that--but you're right: no hard facts yet and probably none in the new codex, either. I'm not sure where your ideas about Fenris come from, however.
Anyway, this is supposed to be a thread about Ultramarines. The Wolves did what was good for them but it turns out that the Codex worked better for 99% of all Space Marines over the last ten thousand years. Go Guilliman!
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Post by: BOSS_PIMPALOTZ
The Red Corsairs absolutely looted one Chapter the Marines Errant of their ENTIRE Geneseed stock thus adding 100 + capable recruits to their numbers add that to the numerous raids they have launched across the board and we have a VERY big problem
Also add the fact that they proberly attract every rogue and brigand for several light years and and they have a lot of candidates ready and capable to take the geneseed they could be a very big problem in the forseeable future (sorry bad spelling im not functioning at 100% feel rough hmmmm corruption of papa Nurgle)
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Post by: Thor665
Greetings,
I would also note that, to a certain degree, dislike of the Ultrasmurfs comes from a outside of fluff reason. For many older fans the role of the rigid, uber loyal, and highly tactical Marines was, and always had been, the role of the Crimson Fists, and those very nice Ultramarines were a 3rd founding chapter and we suppose they did okay in whatever wars they were fighting. Oh, by the way, Rogal Dorn is the uber tactician, he defended the Emperor's palace don't'cha'know.
Then we got a new pile of fluff that shoved the mighty blue superman (1st founding, thank you very much) Marines of perfection at us and oh so kindly told us that Rogal was lucky to be allowed to follow in Guilliman's scented footsteps, after all, Guilliman didn't have even a single one of his Marines die during the siege of Terra, and that's why he gets to write Ye Olde Book of Spassh Marines, you'betcha.
At an intrinsic fluff level I have no issue with the Ultramarines - but for what they did to the glorious Fists (both of them) within the context of non-fluff situations I'll always have a bit of a sore spot at them.
They do have, by far, one of the most attractive and simplistically stylish color schemes though.
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Post by: Manchu
I can sympathize with the point about the Crimson Fists. As I said earlier, this thread was the product of my deliberating over which Chapter to start: U-Marines or C-Fists . . . I have yet to make up my mind but along the way I reformed my own dislike of Guilliman and his sons.
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Post by: Xav
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.
TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.
Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.
TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.
Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.
TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.
Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.
TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.
Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?
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Post by: Canonness Rory
In 10 thousand years all that has been proven about the codex is that it's an excuse for the inquisition to dislike certain space marine chapters. You can't say the Codex works because there is no control group, there are no non-codex legions to compare to. Wait, yes there are, and all of them are incredibly strong and more loyal to the emperor than 3 "chapters" combined. All Ghoulmon accomplished was the weakening of the space marines and the division of the Imperium, setting the stage for the next 9000 years of tyranny. The fact there wasn't a second heresy or civil war was because the other primarchs knew that it was conform or die. Even the SWs humored Ribbit (ok im running out of names) and made a successor chapter.
I love how GW claims the Smurfs are the best because they adhere to the codex best, when any of the legions could tear them apart.
@Xav:
Rowboat Girlyman
Robot Beguileman (cuz he's a robot in disguise)
Big Ray-Ray
Papa Smurf
Ribbit Gigglebutt
Rabbit
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Post by: Grim.Badger
Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)
I'm not sure I'd call the Blood Angels "Goodies", they are one of the more arrogant and distrustful chapters iirc and some of their successors are even worse! Many Imperial forces refuse to work with Blood Angel successors because they're almost as likely to be killed as the enemy  or so they think anyway...
BrotherStynier wrote:As for the Smurfs, I just don't like how over the top they make Calgar I mean catching and stopping the Wailing Doom in his power fist...
That's because they are Daemon weapons, Calgar just doesn't realise it.
But as said, I do respect the Ultramarines for giving hope in the 40k universe, but I chose to play the chapter that most reflects my playing style.
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Post by: deadratman
Emperors Faithful wrote:The ultrasmurffs do have a nice crib. And they have decent enough fluff. But I will always thirst for something different. Too many people go for them, there is too much about them, too exploited and controlled for me to be attracted to them.
I will always go for some chapter with a little more mystery, a little less coverage. Pretty much ANY other race/chapter fits that description.
I will die or worse *shudder* collect Fantasy, before I am corrupted by the Ultrasmurfs.
Not alot of people go for them. I started a poll and last time I checked only one person played ultrasmurfs. But everyone is right. Their crib's tight yo! 
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Post by: Manchu
@Canonness Rory
I think you're a bit off: there is no chapter that has not complied in some (at least minimal) way to the Codex. MOst are generally compliant. Few, other than the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, are strictly compliant. Of the very few that are least compliant, only Space Wolves are reliably concerned with the rest of the Imperium. Dark Angels are notoriously fickle and self-absorbed while the Black Templars are obsessive fanatics bent on their own agenda of "proving their loyalty." Despite these aberrations, the vast majority of Space Marines serve as proof that the Codex has worked.
Again, I have to stress that Dorn seemed to be on the edge of losing it after the Crusade. Even though Russ and Vulkan sided with Dorn, notice that only Dorn was fied upon. Also notice that it was Dorn's giving in that averted the civil war even when Russ only split his chapter in a token way. IMO, Dorn was only a few steps away from being the next Horus himself. I think that it's telling that it was the Codex issue that nearly pushed him over the edge. )It's also telling that the Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines in their devotion to the Codex Astartes.) Giving in and letting go was probably the only thing that saved him from sharing his traitor brothers' fates. And yet that crazed mindset survived him, personified by the Black Templars.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Grim.Badger wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)
I'm not sure I'd call the Blood Angels "Goodies", they are one of the more arrogant and distrustful chapters iirc and some of their successors are even worse! Many Imperial forces refuse to work with Blood Angel successors because they're almost as likely to be killed as the enemy or so they think anyway...
I think you're confusing DA with BA. Dark Angels are arrogant becuase they were the first legion to be founded. BA are purported to be the noblest (not arrogant noble) of all the chapters. Yet they harbour a deep dark secret. The Black Rage. And they constantly search for a cure or try to steel themselves against it.
One of thier sucessor chapters aren't so great. The Flesh Tearers. They seem to have embraced thier thirst for blood or something.
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Post by: Grim.Badger
Yeah I was thinking of the Flesh Tearers, they don't much care for anything other than the battle...
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Post by: aurelion
TBH i dont dislike the UM so much, more the fact that GW only uses the 2nd Company. I mean most (if not all) of the studios UM models for the last 10 years have been from the 2nd company.
Would be cool if some of the other 9 companies got their 15 min of fame 
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Post by: Octavius Widowmaker
I noticed that someone metioned that the Ultramarines lost no Marines on Terra.The reason for that is because Horus had them sent as far away as possible.Horus knew Gulliman was the only one of his Brothers who could match him.Also the Ultramarines were the LARGEST legion by far and were what held the Imperium together after the heresy.All the other Legions were decimated or severely understrength after the Heresy.The Imperial Army had been shattered and the Titan Legions were busy figuring out who followed what.So make fun of Gulliman and the boys in Blue all you want without them the Imperium would have been destroyed by Xenos,and civil war.
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Post by: trougedoor122
I like the ultramarines, in fact i..um..kinda play them, but i am planing on playing some other chapters (top of the list is the space wolfs). But i can say that not many newbies in my area play them, most newbies ive seen play either the Home Depot spray paint marines or the "lets just take a big brush full of paint and out it on" marines.
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Post by: Manchu
Octavius Widowmaker wrote:So make fun of Gulliman and the boys in Blue all you want without them the Imperium would have been destroyed by Xenos,and civil war.
QFT.
trougedoor122 wrote:I like the ultramarines, in fact i..um..kinda play them, but i am planing on playing some other chapters (top of the list is the space wolfs). But i can say that not many newbies in my area play them, most newbies ive seen play either the Home Depot spray paint marines or the "lets just take a big brush full of paint and out it on" marines.
A man after my own heart! I also have not seen a great many people playing them although it is often claimed that legions of people do. It seems like the problem might be that they are " GW's own Chapter" and some people dump on them because they have (maybe legitimate) issues with GW.
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Post by: Thor665
I know at my local store four of the seven people who play 'vanilla' marines do so with either the Ultramarines or a subsequent founding chapter based off of them.
I suspect you're probably correct that a lot of the Ultra-over saturation helps lead to issues with the chapter. As I've said, looking at their fluff I've yet to find any particular reasons to dislike them (I read into the whole re-org situation differently, but I still don't hate the Ultras for it). Thus far I really feel this thread is showing that pretty much all Ultra-hatred is based on outside of fluff considerations.
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Post by: Octavius Widowmaker
Hope I dont sound to stupid here but what is QFT?
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Move your cursor over the acronym.
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Post by: Manchu
Means "quoted for truth"--a lot of Dakka abbreviations are explained in a little caption that comes up when you hover over them with the mouse pointer.
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Post by: Octavius Widowmaker
OK I feel stupid now. thanks for the clarification.I thought it meant something similar but with Dakka I had to be sure.
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Post by: Manchu
No worries, man. It took me a while to notice that function, too, and you are certainly not the first person to ask for that kind of clarification.
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Post by: Canonness Rory
Dorn was so depressed over the death of the emperor, not because he was close to falling to chaos. Had the codex not been put forth the imperium would be stronger. The fact that there are so many chapters that adhere to it is not proof that it works, it is proof that it exists, and if you dont conform to it you dont get to become a chapter. Girlyman put forth the codex because of his own pride, not because of his concern for the imperium. He wanted his will to be enforced. He chose the time that he did for a reason, because he knew the other chapters would be afraid of another civil war and more likely to comply. Rowboat did not have the imperium's interest at heart, he had only his own pride at heart. Dorn should have been put in charge, not rowboat. Not only was Dorn wiser, he was also stronger and more devoted. Dorn was on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from chaos, where girlyman was on the fence, putting his own pride above the Imperium. Dorn, on the other hand, put the Imperium over his own pride and adopted the Codex. It is indeed telling that the Imperial Fists adhere to the codex, because Dorn knew if he didn't Rowboat would start another civil war.
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Post by: Manchu
Well, we won't be convincing each other. I'll let things stand as they are and see what other people think of our contrasting viewpoints.
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Post by: Octavius Widowmaker
You mean dorn the Arrogant?Dorn who almost destroyed his Legion because of his pride?Some may not know this but let me inform you who do not.Dorn in all his supposed wisdom allowed himself to be lured into a trap by his brother Perturbo of the Iron Warriors.Perturbo told Dorn he would never take his homeworld from him.Now Dorn could not let this go so he took what was left of his Legion to the Iron Warriors homeworld.If he was so smart why did he not see the trap laid for him?It almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists.Perturbo called it the Iron Cage for a reason.Dorn did not even know there were hardly any Iron Warriors there at all not even Perturbo.Now you say Gulliman was prideful and arrogant?I say look at Dorn and see what true arrogance can do.Gulliman did what was best for the Legions before they were destroyed in another civil war or the Imperium decided to destroy them just in case another heresy occured.
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Post by: Canonness Rory
Dorn made mistakes, and almost got his legion killed. Girlyman made mistakes, and almost got the Imperium killed. Guilliman did not do what was best for the legions, the codex's purpose was not to avoid a civil war, but it nearly created one.
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Post by: Grim.Badger
I thought Dorn knew it was a trap? I mean he'd have to be stupid not to really. But he considered the Iron Warriors to be too great a threat to the impeium to be left to fortify the Chaos positions post heresy. Although the IF took heavy loses, they tied up the Iron Warriors and caused significant casualties to the legion stopping them from creating a foothold in Imperial space. You've got to remember that the story is largely told from the Chaos point of view and so ignores the contribution to the Imperium that the seige brought.
After the Iron Cage, the IF were increadibly hard trained veterans and re-organised to fit the Codex; the contribution they and the CF and BT made to the young Imperium was and still is invaluable.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ultramarines were my first army. I think they're great.
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Post by: Manchu
H.B.M.C. wrote:Ultramarines were my first army. I think they're great.
Sarcasm? No offense intended. I'm glad to hear it if you're serious.
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Post by: HellsGuardian316
Ultramarines are for those that want to be the goody goody superhumans of 40K, now I don't see this as a bad thing as having the ability to be ultragood can be a good thing.
Other chapters like space wolves blood angels and custom made chapters can be used to be slightly more evil for those that want to and to enable players to show off an individual flare without having to go and be forced to be chaos.
Personally I like the varients that you can choose from GoodytooShoes to Renagades.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Octavius Widowmaker wrote:You mean dorn the Arrogant?Dorn who almost destroyed his Legion because of his pride?Some may not know this but let me inform you who do not.Dorn in all his supposed wisdom allowed himself to be lured into a trap by his brother Perturbo of the Iron Warriors.Perturbo told Dorn he would never take his homeworld from him.Now Dorn could not let this go so he took what was left of his Legion to the Iron Warriors homeworld.If he was so smart why did he not see the trap laid for him?It almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists.Perturbo called it the Iron Cage for a reason.Dorn did not even know there were hardly any Iron Warriors there at all not even Perturbo.Now you say Gulliman was prideful and arrogant?I say look at Dorn and see what true arrogance can do.Gulliman did what was best for the Legions before they were destroyed in another civil war or the Imperium decided to destroy them just in case another heresy occured.
IIRC he only took 500 or so Marines with him
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Post by: SonofTerra
Personally, i think the UM are only hated so much because of how much more marketed the are than anyon one else. If the poter boys for SM and 40k in general were the IF or wolves or DA or BA or...or... the would probably be hated jst as much and the UM would be loved by all
I just dont like them because they are the 40k version of the indianappolis colts
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Codex was a wise choice. That way, there could never be another Horus (on such a scale).
Does'nt mean I have to like Girlyman though. All he did was write a book. And he was a jerk to his little bro Alphurius.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Emperors Faithful wrote:Codex was a wise choice. That way, there could never be another Horus (on such a scale).
Unless you look at the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven brethren. The other Unforgiven still answer to the Dark Angels Inner Circle essentially meaning that they are the size of their Legion prior to the Heresy, if not slightly larger.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Weally?
meh, most are dead. (Space Rok, don`t help.)
DA can go *&%# themselves with an iron stick.
GOOD NIGHT! *little wave*
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Post by: Scott-S6
Another way of looking at it is to say that Rob managed to avoid the fighting at the assault on Terra. Then, with his legion being by far the strongest (especially since it was bigger to begin with) he was able to impose his vision on the Astartes. Not to mention that since then the majority of new chapters have used UM geneseed.
If his primary interest was in securing a grand legacy for himself then he certainly managed to do so.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
Gulliman was the most 'succesful' of the Primarchs, it was his success that had him too far from Terra to help deal with the onset of the chaos uprising.
If any of the primarchs had the 'resume' to say 'This is how it has to be' Gulliman was the one.
He actually gave up more power than anyother primarch in doing so as Ultramarines and thier 2nd foundings are believed to account for over half of all the space marines that remained loyal. This means he also saw the potential for another Heresy, by dividing the Legions into smaller units they would be more manageable.
My nilla SM's are Ultramarines of the 7th reserve Company. And for some diversity Im adding units from other UM 2nd foundings, Hawk Lords, Doom Eagles, Consuls and so forth. Fluff wise I see it as a sort of training exchange program. Im also thinking of painting my IG as an Ultramar PDF rather than the blah Cadians everyone is doing these days.
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Post by: SPARKEYG
I will chime in and say that my latest army is the UltraMarine 3rd company. I was drawn to the boys in blue because they are the good guys and I like the good guys. I'm not put off that they are the poster boy or that every mouth breather seems to have a few UM's. I don't care about the angst, secret motives, or dark secrets of other chapters.
As to whether Roboute Guilliman was nearly as bad as Horus for imposing his will upon the Astartes when it was at it's weakest? He did what he thought was needed to rebuild the empire safer than it was before. The loss of one chapter is easier to bear than the loss of a legion of marines. One charismatic leader can lead his group astray, and if his group is kept small, less the damage he can cause.
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Post by: 40kenthusiast
My space marines are also Ultramarines. I like them as the loyalist's loyalists. Go smurfs!
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Post by: cadak
Manchu wrote:Even before Roboute Guilliman was found by the inhabitants of Macragge, that planet was not a particularly terrible place (unlike Fenris, Caliban, etc, etc) but actually an already civilized and quite peaceful planet.
Macragge is also more of a spartan society which is regarded as utopian by Imperial standards.
tl;dr Ultramarines maintain the moral order of the 40k universe
hellsguardian316 wrote:Ultramarines are for those that want to be the goody goody superhumans of 40K, now I don't see this as a bad thing as having the ability to be ultragood can be a good thing.
They have nothing on the Salamanders.
Canonness Rory wrote:Had the codex not been put forth the imperium would be stronger. The fact that there are so many chapters that adhere to it is not proof that it works, it is proof that it exists, and if you dont conform to it you dont get to become a chapter.
While some of the Primarchs did oppose the decree that required them to split their legions, that's not the same as opposing the entirety of the Codex Astartes. There's much more to it than the Chapter organisation (such as the improved creation and training methods of the Astartes which made them less prone to corruption).
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Post by: Dark Lord Seanron
Hmm, time for me to have my two shillings.
I personally disliked the Ultramarines when I was younger, mainly for all the reasons stated here ("baaaw, their too good at everything, their brighter than bright and twice as shiny!") but now being older and wiser I can come to appreciate the old boys in blue for several reasons.
1: They aren't morally good all the time. Good is a state of mine. What we have to remember is the system they defend. They fight for the good of the Imperium., and would willingly commit genocide to defend it. I don't care what you say, anything willing to unleash death on the scale that all SM chapters are willing to do are quite morally dark.
2: They fought of the Tyranids! Their chief Librarian told the Hive Mind to take a jump (in person...well as close as in person you can possibly get to the Hive Mind)
3: If you're looking for really, and I mean REALLY de-humanised goody-goodies, then look no further than Dakka favourites The Grey Knights. I like 'em to, but the Ultra-boys are literal party animals compared to the Grey Ones!
So their about as 'good' as 'good' can be in the spectrum of the Imperium (like Paul Atreidies was 'good' in the spectrum of Dune). If you want genuine good guys, then the Tau are more likely the ones you're looking for. Stop moaning, the Ultramarines are cool 
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Post by: Shadowbrand
I think i try harder to win when i fight Ultra Marine's I guess it's for the sake of beating up the poster boy.
I have to be honest i think the Dark Angel's are my fav out of the loyal chapter's 
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Post by: Octavius Widowmaker
Dorn took alot more than 500 Marines with him.He was trying to take a world not go for a stroll in the park.Without the Codex the Legions would have been seen as a threat and had to go to war with the Imperium. He had to risk a second civil war by introducing the Codex Astartes.His brothers did not want to relinquish the power they held and Their arrogance and pride almost caused another split.If the Legions were not broken down the Imerium would fall apart.They needed Space Marines everwehere.Not a feew huge armys that could only deal with one conflict at a time.So I say again withoutthe Codex Astartes there would be no Imperium.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
As much as I love the Ultramarines, I have to make this point with the timeline...
Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Robute Guilliman, is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Half of all Space Marine chapters betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. Terra is sieged by the traitors, most Astartes legions suffer major losses, the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are forced to make a stand on Terra, while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld,the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed,and the Emperor is crippled. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
546.M32: 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor, into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros (Fire Hawks' world) thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completly destroyed by a warp storm, still existing today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated.
745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines homeworld Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids.
901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into an Ork Waaagh! while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels.
757998.M41 The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate, and soon Ghazghkull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
5999.M41 Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
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Post by: Canonness Rory
I love you cheese.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
There sure is a lot of "convenience" going on around here.
But to be fair, they are only one chapter (never mind the sucessors), so they WILL miss out on some action.
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Post by: LiberatedObject
I personally have no real problem with the Smurfs, but I personally like the Salamanders, just from the little fluff I can find. (If anybody has links to Salamanders fluff, please let me know.)
However, as for the Codex, I think that it can be viewed as both good and bad. You cut down the size of potential traitors since with Horus, it is proven anybody could succumb to Chaos. Also, it was probably good at the time. However, there could be a dark plan, considering SM have potentially long lives, thus making long term planning a plus IMO.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
There's nothing "convenient" about it. The Realm of Ultramar is on the opposite side of the galaxy from the EoT. You can't blame them for not being there.
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Post by: Alpharius
Bottom line is this: If the 40K Galaxy was real, and you were living in it, you'd want to be in Ultramar.
Well, aside from that Tyranid problem.
But other than that, there is NO better place for an 'ordinary' human to live!
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Post by: jack1995
The smurfs are all right apart from Marneus Calgar and the 1st and 2nd company. The other 8 companies get as much love as the other chapters. And the colour scheme is quite good.
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Post by: Cairnius
I don't get the comment, that always arises in Ultramarine discussions, that "everyone" plays Ultramarines or that it's "screaming 12-year-olds" who play Ultramarines.
Is this a British thing?
I am the only member of my club of 30+ 40K players who plays Ultramarines. I am 35. I only do so because BfM was my entrypoint into the hobby and once I had painted up three Ultramarines I didn't want to start over again with a different color scheme because I am lazy.
Once, ONCE, maybe three years ago I saw one other Ultramarines player pop into the local GW branch for a game. Never saw him again. He must have been in his early 20's.
At a huge doubles tourney a year and a half ago I saw one half of a doubles pairing, 1,250 points' worth, of Ultramarines being fielded by someone my age or older.
Could these stories of Ultramarine popularity and average player age just be tales at this point, perhaps based on some sort of historical truth in the distant past but now just legends?
I like the Ultramarines precisely because they are "the good guys." 40K fluff wears on me sometimes...yes, yes, the galaxy is horrible, yes, yes, humans are techno-savages who like to set each other on fire out of superstitious nonsense, yes, yes, we're all doomed, blah blah blah.
Seriously, just go read "The Road" and be done with it already...
The Ultramarines are the only real bastion of hope in the 40K universe, you know, the idea that not all humans might suck, that it might be possible for SOME people to live decent lives even in this murk of garbage that the galaxy has descended into.
I suppose if I have to spend time in a game universe that has been locked in a narrative coma for 20 years that I may as well be spending that time with an army who actually protects its citizens and considers the maintenance of their welfare part of their charge, not just something they attend to when they feel like it or when it's convenient for them...the stupidity of humanity in the 40K universe is something that constantly galls me and gets rather boring rather quickly.
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Post by: Octavius Widowmaker
The Ultrmarines beat the Nids on Maccrage.The whole 1st Company was wiped out.Oh and the White Scars were with the Damocles Crusade in greater numbers than the Ultramarines.Quit beating on them because they are GWs poster child for Marines.
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Post by: 40kenthusiast
Ultramarines are certainly a plurality (by which I mean the most common, but not more common than the other types combined, I'm suddenly seized with doubt as to whether that's what that word means) of Marine armies I see. I attend a fair amount of the tournaments in Atlanta, probably like 10+ events a year, plus Adepticon and the Big Waaagh, for what that's worth considering my sample size.
I'll do you one better on the cynicism. I'm tired of people being tired of GW's narrative direction. Congrats, you are smarter than the fictional inhabitants of a universe created to jusity a wargame. That officially establishes your credentials as a clever post-ironic net dweller. Now why are you on a message board dedicated to this hobby? We are enthusiasts here, we like 40k. Its a big internet. If you don't share our enthusiasm, there's better pasttimes than trolling us.
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Post by: Thor665
Cheese Elemental wrote:As much as I love the Ultramarines, I have to make this point with the timeline...
 Ouch, that hurt to read. I wish I could get away with that as a sig line.
Though, in all fairness to the Ultras, since they're a bit of a Johnny Come Lately 1st Founding they had, by then, already been somewhat excluded from most of the major engagements, and since GW barely advances the timeline they do end up spending a lot of time "on the other side of the galaxy".
Cairnius wrote:I don't get the comment, that always arises in Ultramarine discussions, that "everyone" plays Ultramarines or that it's "screaming 12-year-olds" who play Ultramarines....I am the only member of my club of 30+ 40K players who plays Ultramarines.
Just to note the prevalence of Ultramarines (though clearly your local club is an Ultra-less zone) go search through some battle reports on this site and others. If people play vanilla Marines then more then likely they're playing the boys in blue. This in no way is a message from me that the Ultrasmurfs are then somehow less worthy from a fluff level - I'm just pointing out that you happen to exist in a play area that is uncommonly free of them. To my mind this isn't surprising, their paint scheme is simple and looks very good, and if you have any GW material you're certainly looking at a lot of cool Marines done up in blue, white, and gold. I'm sure that helps lead a lot of players into painting their armies to be Ultras at that point.
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Post by: LiberatedObject
At my shop, other than other Codex Marine players, if people are playing 'nilla, there are two Salamanders (me and one other guy) and about 5 Smurfs. Then there's one Templar, one SW and one DA.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
At least 5 kids play it at our FLGS. All of them 12 or younger. It's not like they're FORCED to paint em blue and white. So why?
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Post by: LiberatedObject
Well, I talked with a friend who had previously worked for GW and he said Ultramarines are popular because the color scheme is simple and the most pleasing to the eye, being a nice warm blue.
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Post by: Cosmic
Perhaps this is going off topic, but I truly beleive that the Ultramarine's Companies were cooler when they had just normal colour Company markings - None of this pimped up metallic stuff.
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Post by: BlackDracoSLC
They even make nice banners for Chaos Titans.
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Post by: Cosmic
Heresy!
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Post by: Grim.Badger
Am I the only one who remembers that the Blood Angels used to be the ones on the fronts of the boxes?
Most of the kids at my flgs play orks, and the marine players tend to paint them some god-awful gaudy gold/silver combo  Marine players get picked on and eventually leave because the kids are convinced you can't win a battle with them.
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Post by: combat_hobo
i get a bit annoyed by the kids blue marines, but i dont rage.
the only thing that i hate about them is ventris and his stupid adventures if he died unkown uncared about in a hole somewhere i would be happy and not hate anything about the ultras anymore.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Grim.Badger wrote:Am I the only one who remembers that the Blood Angels used to be the ones on the fronts of the boxes?
I may be wrong but I could have sworn that when I was younger there was Salamanders on one of the boxes, I remember cause when I was a kid thats why I got the box, because the Green Guys looked cool.
Also this was way before I started to play, back then I wanted to play Guard and thought the concept of a Man with two hearts was slowed. (That was also before I started watching Doctor Who.)
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Post by: Alpharius
That might have been Dark Angels you're thinking of...
Maybe on the cover of one of the old Epic games?
Maybe?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Possibly, but I remember it being a Tac Squad, maybe the Sallies were on the back...
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
I think Salamanders were on the front of Armageddon or sumfink.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
The Salamanders are on the front covers of Epic: Armageddon and Titanicus, with Emperor Titans in the background.
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Post by: Xav
The Salamanders were the good guys in Armageddon, they defended civilians where other Chapters were too busy?
To this day the people of Armageddon will remeber the sallies for what they did.
Also it was like three years after Tu'shan became Chapter master, and he was openly praised by Dante in front of all of the Blood Angels.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
So, back to Ultras (go start your own Sallies thread :p)
What do you all think about Ultramar Defense Auxilia? i.e. the Ultramar version of Imperial Guard since they dont have to raise IG levies like other systems/Worlds do. In the deeper UM fluff they are mentioned often as having fought side by side during the Tyranid invasion and a few other smaller engagements.
My unpainted IG might look pretty good with Ultra insignia and unit markings in place of all IG types.
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Post by: Xav
Well i think people hate them cause of how many little kids play them, and not only play them but paint them badly. Worse then bad, i know they cant be Golden Demon straight away, but the GW i go to will show them how to paint, but they just slap paint on them and they look terrible.
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Post by: Canonness Rory
IMO that is proof positive of the Ultramarine's hypocrisy, they have a larger fleet than any other chapter, and what amounts to their own regiment of imperial guard, so that those few engagements they do participate in have even less actual marines.
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Post by: Manchu
Mistress of minis wrote:My unpainted IG might look pretty good with Ultra insignia and unit markings in place of all IG types.
I think that idea is very cool. If Ultramarines are overdone and Guard in general are overdone, then Ultramar Guards should be the ultimate ironic-twist paint scheme.
Rory, what are you referring to?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Mistress of minis wrote:
My unpainted IG might look pretty good with Ultra insignia and unit markings in place of all IG types.
For some reason I like the idea of having an Ultramar IG Regiment painted to look like they were UltraScouts. Just no Calgar for gods sake no Calgar.
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Post by: Paintin'Dave
Right this is my first post so forgive me if this seems a bit noobyish
Personally, I grew up thinking that the UM were ultimatly BORING! as has been said a number of times on this thread, too purfeck, too generic, too blue so in the end I converted to the good ol' BA's, (something about being half crazy blood drinkers maybe lol)
All of the amazing fluff aside, you need to look at this from the designers point of view, GW needed a stable platform to work off of, for a new army, which undoubtably the UM are, no gene traits, no nothing, just something as a simple starter army for those starting a life of paint, clippers and games...
THEN you build off of that, add a few "problems" some history for the other 8 or so chapters, yes BA-but they have a dark secret (black rage), DA's hunt for their "fallen" SW's have werewolves!...the list goes on
But i digress, to reiterate, the UM are stable, boring and plain, aimed for people to start the hobby with, but when all the dust has settled, they get the job done
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Post by: HellsGuardian316
Cheese Elemental wrote:As much as I love the Ultramarines, I have to make this point with the timeline...
Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Robute Guilliman, is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Part quote
I love that post Cheese, though IIRC and I'm by no means all that knowledgable on the HH, didn't Horus fool the Ultramarines into going to the otherside of the galaxy to get them out the way?
Paintin'Dave wrote:
All of the amazing fluff aside, you need to look at this from the designers point of view, GW needed a stable platform to work off of, for a new army, which undoubtably the UM are, no gene traits, no nothing, just something as a simple starter army for those starting a life of paint, clippers and games...
THEN you build off of that, add a few "problems" some history for the other 8 or so chapters, yes BA-but they have a dark secret (black rage), DA's hunt for their "fallen" SW's have werewolves!...the list goes on
But i digress, to reiterate, the UM are stable, boring and plain, aimed for people to start the hobby with, but when all the dust has settled, they get the job done
Part quote
QFT
Very accurate in my opinion and also welcome to dakka
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Post by: Fifty
Cairnius wrote:Seriously, just go read "The Road" and be done with it already...
Read it once. Think I'd have to top myself if I read it again...
As an RT-era oldbie, I love Crimson Fists, though I love how Pedro Cantor, "the man who would not listen" became Pedro Kantor, "saviour of Rynn's World" (Hurrh!)
As it is though, I play Lamenters (post penitent crusade) and Mentor Legion (using WD98 fluff, when they used to send single squads to fight alongside other armies, not like the solitary guys they are now).
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Post by: Redbeard
I paint all the dead marines on my orks and daemons as ultramarines, not because they're the best chapter, but because they're SparkeyG's chapter
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Post by: Shadowbrand
You know, Fulgrim MY PRIMARCH was a pretty cool guy before he called ferus, turned chaos and put Guilliman in a coma, or stasis cell, is there a diffrence?
Yes, getting to know the fluff more, Fulgrim landed on a poorer world called Chemo's and basically re-built it as a happier place and they began practicing art, and all that good stuff.
May i ask a quick question seeing as i'm posting about Chemo's i've read all the worlds where the traitor legions are from got destroyed. But i read somewhere Chemo's is occupied not destroyed....
is this true or false?
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Post by: Voronesh
Basically what unnerves me about Smurfs is the poster boy factor from GW. Sure they need a stable base to work from, but you get bombarded left and right by Smurf stuff, when you look at Space Marines.
Plus i really prefer to have mroe shades than "were the good guys" to the army i play. (ok kinda hard with Necrons but whatever).
So yeah Smurfs are all nice and everything, i just cant get myself to buy the new SM Codex, when every 1ßth page has Ultramarine or Girlyman praise in it.
There are 9 loyal legions, only SW do not really adhere to the Codex, BA and DA actually mostly do follow the Codex, and Iron Hands didnt even get they own Character model.....Its the feelingof 90% Space marine stuff is ultramarine stuff...
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Post by: Blightdrone
Orkeosaurus wrote:Ultramarines = Superman.
Sorry to have to bring this up again, but Ultramarines are clearly better than Superman.
Yes, they may wear blue suits. Yes, they may be super strong and Yes, they may be able to withstand lots of bullets.
BUT! You don't see Ultramarines crapping themselves when someone pulls out some cryptonite do you!?!
Cheers!
Jack.
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Post by: JD21290
for some unknown fething reason i actually read a whole thread rather than the 1st page.
and luna, your far from emo
jack, ultrasmurfs dont shoot eye lasers
i think the main reason people hate them would be due to advertising
they are shown pretty much everywhere on every box, people get fed up with having to look at the basic blue armour.
not only that, but the fluff is pretty gakky and plain.
due to being over advertised every small child decides to play them, leading to even more smurf players, which in turn pisses everyone else of with having to look at them
on a side note, im a legion of the damned and BA player
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Post by: Warboss Spleenstaba
Every facet of my 40k being is screaming death to the Ultramarines and this thread!
Tau: This thread is not for the Greater Good!
Death Skull Orks: No weez iz da real blue boyz and weez iz da best! 
Raven Guard: What a bunch of tactless panzies, For the Raven!
Grey Knights: Purge this thread and the Ultramarines!
Tyranids: Om nom nom tastes like vanilla! 
Daemons: BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD!
Imperial Guard: Kill the daisy picking blue boys with chem cannons!
Word Bearers: DEATH TO THE HATED COWARDLY WHORESON WHELPS OF GULLIEMAN, I USE THEIR SKIN AS TOILET TISSUE!!!!!!!!!
Sry I got a little carried away there, I just hate them b/c they're boring and have only ever met one Ulramarines player that I liked, but atleast their better than stupid Blood Ravens or Soul Drinkers lol.
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Post by: Manchu
Wait, what makes them better than Blood Ravens and Soul Drinkers? I think we're zeroing in on a good point there.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
Manchu wrote:Wait, what makes them better than Blood Ravens and Soul Drinkers? I think we're zeroing in on a good point there.
Umm because they arent DOW fanboy based fluff?
Its like when some lamer in an MMO names their character Aragorn, Legolas, Walker Boh, Garet Jax or any of the multitude of cool book characters that turned to fanboy fodder. If you have to name it after a cool character in a book, it at least shows you read- but its also a lack of creativity.
Now- counterpoint is obviously that UM lack creativity too- since they have fluff everywhere ya look. But, theyve been at the core of 40k, and theyre still here. Some hate em, some dont. I think the creativity can be exercised in the execution of the modeling and selection.
And besides- its fun to make fun of other UM armies that have their insignia done improperly O.o Point being- UM armies seem to have higher % of armies with insignia/squad marks, compasred to most other marine armies.
Im rambling. I blame the cold meds.
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Post by: Redbeard
I have to second that, Ultramarine players tend to actually know what they're doing with their markings.
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Post by: Manchu
I don't think that playing UM shows any lack of creativity. Also, I think that what passes for creativity among 40k players establishing their own chapter colors/fluff is often pretty absurd. Learning about the UM and trying to model them accurately or trying to put together a Soul Drinker army straight out of the books is more impressive to me than painting up a pack of hideous marines and then writing up some ridiculous background. There are a few good examples of homemade chapters, like Rory's Vigiliant (if she ever gets around to showing us more on them), but I don't think that even the good examples are any better than the established chapters. Personally, I prefer the chapters I can read about in in the Codices and BL's stuff--something that's bigger than my own personal imagination, something that many minds have worked on. And you don't get much more "established" than UM.
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Post by: Cosmic
Manchu wrote:...Personally, I prefer the chapters I can read about in in the Codices and BL's stuff--something that's bigger than my own personal imagination, something that many minds have worked on. And you don't get much more "established" than UM.
You're right there, of course. Personally creating a Chapter that's original and awesome is no easy option. That's why the backgrounds are there - People don't want to think too much/spend time thinking about something to paint, and they can feel totally safe in what they're doing. Also, it can become slightly mis-leading when going for the D.I.Y. approach. Something that you may think is great may well turn out to be, in other's eyes, wrong or hilarious. That's why GW always has the upper-hand. An employee could say, "Hey, does this seem alright?" and they'll get a serious, constructive response. Just any old friend/family member would say, "Yeah, that's fine." however, they don't have a clue what it is you're looking for. Someone who's actually in the hobby would be much better at this.
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Post by: Manchu
I don't think it's just about keeping people who are too lazy or not creative enough to create their own chapters happy. Like I said, it's about playing a part in something that's bigger than your own imagination. I am not the only SW player, for example. And I can enjoy some kind of camaraderie with other SW players. We all know what the Pups have done because the fluff is out there for all of us. Doesn't keep us from being creative, but allows us to be creative together. I think the UM have some great background and I still haven't heard any convincing reasons why they deserve so much scorn heaped upon them. Sounds more like a lot of people just getting into line with preconceived notions about what's cool and what's not.
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Post by: Thor665
Manchu wrote:I still haven't heard any convincing reasons why they deserve so much scorn heaped upon them. Sounds more like a lot of people just getting into line with preconceived notions about what's cool and what's not.
You didn't find any of the points I and others made about outside of fluff reasons convincing for why we dislike them? (not that I was really trying to convince anyone, rather just explain my own reasoning)
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Post by: Manchu
Wel,l aside from the "everyone plays them" angle--which I find utterly unconvincing--there seem to be two arguments:
(1) Codex Astartes was a symptom of Guilliman's egomania and
(2) GW allowed UM to usurp CF.
It seems to me that the Codex Astartes has prevented another Heresy, so the first argument has no traction. As to the second argument, while valid for the older gamers, it really can't comprehensively explain the prejudices. Plus, CF and UM are not so different. To my knowledge, CF aren't appreciably less adherent to the Codex than UM. The only difference is that the CF are homeless. They haven't totally be usurped. In fact, they are making a fluff recovery in 5th edition. They've got Pedro on the books now and are given a lot of spot light in Planetstrike.
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Post by: Thor665
But if you're just looking for people to express their reasons for disliking the UMs (and I'll presume no one would bother to lie about their reasons) clearly some of those above stated reasons (whether acceptable to you or not) are indeed reasons that people dislike them.
I'll also add that, since lots of other players seem to dislike them probably a fair number of players decide to continue to dislike them simply because it appears to be the "in" thing to do.
I know when I make fun of Tau (who I dislike, albeit mildly, for other reasons) I refer to the as fish'eads of fishies or somesuch - not because I think they look like fishes but simply because others have adopted that as a term for expressing displeasure towards them and I glommed onto it. It might be that Ultramarine hate is simply an outgrowth of "others hate them so I will too" as well as, perhaps, some generalized Space Marine dislike that is targeted at the poster boys (because they are, I feel quite obviously, that)
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Post by: Manchu
Well, I anticipated some of this in the original post. And the thread was intended to be more of an argument that UM representing a silver lining to the Grimdark, not about whether or not a lot of twelve year olds want to play them. Remember, the topic is not "Why do you hate Ultramarines"? Of course, replies along those lines are to be expected but they are actually off-topic. That's why I only mentioned the two arguments that I did: first, that the Codex is not actually a silver lining at all and second, that the CF are the disinherited poster boys.
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Post by: metallifan
I don't understand the actual Ultramarine hate myself, actually. I understand the jokes - Rowboat being called 'Girlyman' for hardly doing anything to help fight the Heresy (Though mostly due to it's timing), 'Vanilla Marines' because they're on every piece of artwork and box cover in the range, etc...
But I don't understand where the dislike of them comes from. This has puzzled me from day one. Like Thor said, it's probably just a bandwagon thing. Personally I think the Ultramarines have some decent (albeight boring at times) fluff. There's nothing in the fluff to really hate about them, except for perhaps Marneus' insufferable ego and Sicarius' ability to win, or nearly win, every battle he's in. Perhaps it's just the fact that they're kind of the mold for the ideal chapter. I'm not sure.
The only thing I don't like about UM's is that they're splattered all over everything. They're the poster boys as others have said. It's not worth -hating- them over. I'd just like to see more variety.
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Post by: Redbeard
metallifan wrote:
I don't understand the actual Ultramarine hate myself, actually...
But I don't understand where the dislike of them comes from. This has puzzled me from day one.
It's like hating the Yankees. Some people like the Yankees because they have a proud tradition of winning and excellence and all that. Some people hate them for the same reason.
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Post by: Tyras
Lore wise, I don't have much of a problem with the Ultramarines. I like the Roman and Spartan overtones of thier theme. The problem that I have is that they're the poster boys for Space Marines for anything GW puts out. There are so many other chapters with interesting lore, heraldry and styles but 90% of what is seen, outside of a new release for another chapter, is Ultramarines. I've had to explain why my Dark Angels aren't painted like Ultramarines to several people because when they think Space Marine they think of the boys in blue. We all get it. The Ultra Marines are the founders of the Codex Astartes. That fact alone shouldn't marginalize the other chapters in GW's marketing.
Note: I was really surprised and pleased with the DA and SW appearence inthe new Planetstrike book.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
Considering that per the fluff, that Guilliman was so successful in managing the UM that they accounted for over half of all Space Marines after the Horus Heresy (pg13 of codex SM). So, just going off of basic demographics like that- it makes sense that the majority of the SM content out there is UM based, simply as they are the most common 1st founding.
And for the boneheads that keep saying the UM/Guilliman didnt do anything during the Horus Heresy: "Knowing of Guillimans lethal efficiency at war, Horus had masterfully planned his rebellion to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting in the far galactic south"
So, if Horus had the sense to plan his attack like that- because Guilliman was an excellent general/leader, and because the UM was the largest legion- it tells me Horus had the sense to be afraid of/respect them to the point he organized his entire rebellion around them being far away.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Mistress of minis wrote:And for the boneheads that keep saying the UM/Guilliman didnt do anything during the Horus Heresy: "Knowing of Guillimans lethal efficiency at war, Horus had masterfully planned his rebellion to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting in the far galactic south"
So, if Horus had the sense to plan his attack like that- because Guilliman was an excellent general/leader, and because the UM was the largest legion- it tells me Horus had the sense to be afraid of/respect them to the point he organized his entire rebellion around them being far away.
I would say that may be another reason for the hate, Largest Legion, Guilliman being ridiculously brilliant at waging war, his picking on Alpharius.
Me I don't hate UM, mainly just the ridiculousness of Calgar, and the Chief Librarian. Oh and how Cassius is like 500 years old and claimed to be one of the Oldest Living Space Marines. Last I checked Commander Dante has been around for over 1200 years and Logan has been Great Wolf for 500, thats just how long his been the Big Wolf not how long he's been alive.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
BrotherStynier wrote:
Me I don't hate UM, mainly just the ridiculousness of Calgar, and the Chief Librarian. Oh and how Cassius is like 500 years old and claimed to be one of the Oldest Living Space Marines. Last I checked Commander Dante has been around for over 1200 years and Logan has been Great Wolf for 500, thats just how long his been the Big Wolf not how long he's been alive.
Well, they arent saying he IS the oldest....just one of the oldest. So it makes sense that some Chapter Masters are older. I mean, if 90% of space marines are 100 years old or less, being 500 years old would make him one of the oldest
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Post by: Jimsolo
Why do I hate the Ultramarines?
I dont hate them. I dislike them, however. I think that I dislike them for the same root reason that other players do. Gamers are used to marching to the beat of their own drum, or at least thinking that they do. Most gamers came into the hobby feeling slightly alienated (the vast majority of us are self-proclaimed 'geeks') and like many alienated people take pride in being different.
The positive side is that this makes many of us more self-reliant, more independent, and gives us a thicker skin. The downside is that it tends to make us dismissive of mainstream things, contemptuous of 'the sheeple' and all their mindless adherence to the current fads.
Following that, many gamers refuse to follow what they perceive as 'the norm'. They dislike what everyone else is doing simply because everyone else is doing it. This is what results in people hating Space Marines ("Everyone plays them!") and amongst Space Marine players, the Ultramarines.
You aren't going to like everything about any particular chapter. I play Salamanders, and I seriously wish that our Chapter symbol wasn't so hard to draw freehand, that Vulkan Hestan had a weapon that was smaller than a big ass polearm, etc. So the people who have already decided to dislike the Ultramarines pick the things that they dislike and label them as the reason they dont like the Ultramarines.
I dont think that they are making up their reasons, mind you. I think that most people's big problem with them is that they are perceived as the 'mainstream' choice.
And on a separate tangent, I think that the Codex absolutely prevented another Heresy. The Imperium is all about the idea that for mankind to survive, we must become a society of rigid xenophobia and ironclad, brutal discipline. This discipline and xenophobia must be enforced by the most disciplined and rigid group of all (the Ultramarines) so that their motives are above reproach. The Codex is a roadmap for other Chapters to 'go and do thou likewise'. It isn't the only option (the Space Wolves did just fine on their own) but since it works, it is a good foundation for other Chapters to operate under.
However, even though they are the most rigid, disciplined, and unreproachable Chapters of the Astartes, doesn't mean I want to play them. After all, everyone plays those guys!
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Post by: Manchu
Again, I'd say SW do fine without (more than less) the Codex because of the particular character of Russ. He's just not made of the stuff of traitors. I think the Codex most prominently prevented the fall of Rogal Dorn.
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Post by: Cor Angars
When I started with the ultramarines two years ago, everyone at another forum was like: Nooo, they are uverused! They sux! Blaaaaaaah gak!
And I say it here like I said on the other forum, it's not the ultramarines that are overused, it's the second company.
Really, ever seen a army of ultramarines with red/other company color shoulder pad ends and not gold? And a new codex?
Black reach: 2nd company with Sicarius.
Battle of macragge? Sure the story was about the 1st company, but the soldiers on the box was 2nd company with gold shoulder pads.
And the latest "The Spear of Sicarius"? 2nd company.
I hate that wannabe Sicarius Cato and his 2nd company.
I say it's they who gives the Ultramarines a bad name.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
Cor, Im with ya on the 2nd Company. Ive seen more than a few 1,3 and 4th.
Which is why I picked the 7th, well, that and the purple trim
I like that theyre a reserve company, and they're all trained as speeder pilots, and as I like Speeders, it also works out well since I run 6-9 of them
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Post by: Cor Angars
Mistress, I would marry you for being so intellectual in this matter!
But um... I wont...
BTW: I collect the third company myself.
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Post by: Mithrax
I saw a bumpersticker on the highway the other day that said "I drive this way just to piss you off".
Since reading that, I'm tempted to play Ultras
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
lol
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Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
There are 5 main reasons I dislike the Ultramarines.
1) The 'Ultra' part of their name. I'm sorry, how cheesy?
2)Marneus Calgar and Chaplain Cassius.
3)Being portrayed as the "Bestest best" by GW when all they've really done is marched around the parade grounds in their perfect little home system, and Being Gribbled by 'nids.
4) AOBR.
5)MARNEUS CALGAR AND CHAPLAIN CASSIUS!!!!! 
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Post by: DeathTyrant
Cpt. Obvious = me
Ultramarines are a little more bland compared to the other main chapters. They follow all the rules for their armies and as such don't have as many funky combinations to play with.
The name? Fine really. Marneus Calgar? I like him. Looks like an awesome boxer.
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Post by: unistoo
There's a pretty simple reason as to why they have a single chapter as the 'face' of Space Marines.
It's a shorthand way of identifying which models are 'universal' - if each box had a different chapter on the front, then there'd be all kinds of confusion. If it's consistent, you can walk up top the Wall o' Marines and know that you can use any of the boxes with the blue guys on them, and if you play BA for example, you know you can have the boxes in blue and red. It's a type of branding - that's why they're everywhere.
As for why choose U's? Well - they've spent a good deal of time telling people that they are the 'truest' chapter - so it would be daft to use anyone else for the visual identity of a 'basic' Space Marine because by their own definition, all other chapters are deviations.
Why do I play them? Because when I first started, I liked the colours. I still play them because it seems every other chapter is so dreadfully angst-ridden - they all seem to have a secret curse or a dreadful past or tragic founding, and each seems to be trying so hard to be the Grimdarkest of them all
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Post by: Spanklet
Not at the level of Ultramarines but I am getting some flak for playing a Blood Ravens theme.
They have the mysterious chaos link and lots of skeletons in the closet. I usually have a librarian leading the group as the benefits are endless (and it adheres to fluff ;p).
The people that mess with me are the hardcore grognards who give me the, "Oh, you're one of those computer gaming nerds".
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Post by: Cairnius
I dunno, been a while since I posted in this thread, but I still think that anyone hating the Ultramarines is kind of slowed.
1) "I hate them because they're GW poster boys!"
Basic rule of storytelling - your audience needs a sympathetic character to attach themselves to before they immerse themselves in your story. If they don't care about the characters, they don't care about your story. That's all you need to know as to why the Ultramarines are who they are, and rose to the PR prominence they rose to.
Where you see Ultramarines in advertising you see someplace that GW has made some sort of foothold. Be happy when you see the Ultramarines. It means you're home.
2) "I hate them because everyone plays them."
When I got into 40K, the first thing I bought after playing Dawn of War for months was the Battle for Macragge paint set. Three Marines, five pots of paint I think (maybe six), some transfers. No idea what I was doing beyond following directions as the only models I had ever assembled prior to that point were some Star Trek models when I was seven that were a disaster and thus led to disinterest for the rest of my childhood, and then some Gundam models a few years before I tried 40K.
Made three Ultramarines. Realized this was something I could do. Then I bought Battle for Macragge proper. Wanted the new Marines to match the existing Marines, so painted them in the same colors.
Why would I have chosen some other Space Marine Chapter so early? I didn't know one from the other, didn't know the fluff, was still learning the rules...I just wanted an army to play with, and as quickly as possible, and I'd already made inroads with a 2nd Company Ultramarine force.
Don't blame the Ultramarine players, blame GW for making the Ultramarines our starting point...and then give up hating GW for it because it's purile once you understand the "why" behind the marketing. See point #1.
3) "All Ultramarine players play 2nd Company."
For a while, probably. But then a lot of them "graduate." My new army is mostly 1st Company Terminators and Sternguard, with supporting elements from 2nd. It's just not worth painting over all the old shoulder-trim of my older Ultramarine models when there's work to be done on new stuff...though it is interesting that my Sternguard are all converted from my original Macragge Marines. There's a little less gold for people to have to look at. 
4) "Anyone who plays a popular Chapter are "sheeple."
Blood Ravens players get this one as well, which is a particularly slowed argument. Dawn of War is one of the best things to happen to 40K in a long, long time. Exposed a whole new audience to the hobby. Be grateful for every new 40K player who enters our world through the portal of a Blood Ravens Space Marine army.
I generally find that anyone who hates the "sheeple" in one aspect of life are, themselves, part of the "sheeple" somewhere else. No one's entirely unique, get over yourself. You fit into a group somewhere whether you want to or not, and it doesn't make you a worse person for it. Everyone, in their own way, is normative somehow.
Last point - it's important, if you want to be mature and reasonable about this, to differentiate between new and established Ultramarine players. Take the "new to the hobby" Ultramarine players and toss them out of your consciousness. They are not really "Ultramarine players." It's the established Ultramarine players like myself who count as "Ultramarine players."
In my experience, Ultramarine players are people who are attracted to the Ultras fluff for a reason. Most of the ones I know are good sportsmen in tournaments. We pay a lot of attention to detail in our painting work, in particular squad markings and organization. We know the rules or know how to settle rules debates quickly and politely. I don't know any of us in the Ultramarines community on B&C who are power-gamers.
Learn to make the distinction between " 40K noobs playing Ultras because that's all they know" and "Ultramarine players who are well-ensconced in the fluff, who may have multiple armies they play, but who have chosen to stick with the Ultramarines as well." These are entirely different animals.
In many ways, any thread complaining about the Ultramarines could remove the word "Ultramarines" from all the text and just be complaints about " 40K noobs." That's really what you're kvetching about, not the Boys in Blue.
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Post by: Shaman
Ultramarines suck for a bunch of reasons.. Their name, Their colour scheme, Rowboat, Superman sydrome. When I think of Ultras I think of this.  Automatically Appended Next Post: Blightdron wrote:Orkeosaurus wrote:Ultramarines = Superman.
Sorry to have to bring this up again, but Ultramarines are clearly better than Superman. Yes, they may wear blue suits. Yes, they may be super strong and Yes, they may be able to withstand lots of bullets. BUT! You don't see Ultramarines crapping themselves when someone pulls out some cryptonite do you!?! Cheers! Jack.
Their kryptonite is following the codex to the letter. EDIT Also cheese that was a great post.. haha
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Post by: Shaman
haha above image is nail in the coffin for thread.
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Post by: Barakia
1-I really get a chuckle out of "Gulliman is such a genius/master of strategy that Horus (and other people, later on) tricked him into having the Ultramarines where nothing was happening." Wow, way to go, genius.
2-A lot of 40K players dislike marines in general, for various reasons. Since the Ultramarines are pretty much the poster boys for Marines, all those players will automatically dislike the Ultras.
3-For Space Marine players, especially for those who don't get their own Codex, it can be frustrating to read all the Fluff about the Ultramarines while your own Chapter is mentioned twice. And even for those with their own Codex, they (obviously) don't get as much attention as the generic marine, so even that applies.
4-For me personally... Ultramar is the name of a MAJOR chain of gas stations in Quebec, where I'm from. And sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously Marines who are based out of a gas station.
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Post by: Dark
Barakia wrote:3-For Space Marine players, especially for those who don't get their own Codex, it can be frustrating to read all the Fluff about the Ultramarines while your own Chapter is mentioned twice. And even for those with their own Codex, they (obviously) don't get as much attention as the generic marine, so even that applies.
Well, to defend this point, I chose SW because I loved their viking fluff, and Ultras... well, I'm not that into the romanesque thing they have, of course, I have Codex SM and most of the "mentioned" chapters there are mere color schemes that one may play if they look cool, but nothing else.
4-For me personally... Ultramar is the name of a MAJOR chain of gas stations in Quebec, where I'm from. And sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously Marines who are based out of a gas station.
I find it a pretentious name, since it's the spanish medieval name for the Holy Land back in the crusades (being Outremer in french, since they started it all).
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Post by: Thor665
Barakia wrote:1-I really get a chuckle out of "Gulliman is such a genius/master of strategy that Horus (and other people, later on) tricked him into having the Ultramarines where nothing was happening." Wow, way to go, genius.
My other favorite was his eventual fall to the bad arse of all bad arsedness - Fulgrim the Prince of Pleasure.
Yeah, Rowboat was caught by surprise that, as a demon prince, Fulgrim was apparently a little bit tougher then just as a primarch and thus when he charged into hand to hand combat with the primarch cum demon prince he was not able to overpower it and was mortally wounded. Good situational awareness there, buddy.
At least most of the others just had the common decency to *all* go jump into the Eye of Terror for various reasons.
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Post by: Shelegelah
I don't particularly enjoy the background of Ultramarines, or their goody-two-shoes style. Their color scheme is just a bit too blue for me, and I really can't stand their self-important primarch.
BUT.
That doesn't meant that I'll ever give people crap for playing them. I see them as another perfectly viable and interesting army to play against, and I particularly enjoy slaughtering them by the dozens at any opportunity that comes my way. While I find them uninspiring and just a bit too righteous and pure, I never pass up the chance to kill the good guy of the story. So in all honesty, I appreciate the element they bring to the game, if only to provide a little point of light for all the grimdarkness to eat alive.
I hope that made sense. I'm terribly tired.
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Post by: Chaosgyro
I'm probably beating a dead horse here (not the best thing to do with my second post I'm sure) but I take exception to the idea that Rogal Dorn was about to turn traitor.
Out of all the primarchs, Dorn probably had the most genuine "love" for the Emperor. Horus may have been the favored one, but I don't think anyone else really saw the Emp as 'dad'. I mean, he was the only one to actively seek out the crusade fleets bearing a gift. What I'm getting at is that Dorn held a deep respect and love for the Imperium as he saw in its golden age. After finding his father's body he went out and chased Chaos with his legion for a while, when he came back and was presented with this Codex thing he was pretty much flabergasted. As stated in Index Astartes II he couldn't comprehend that people would no longer trust the primarchs/space marines. He wanted to continue the Emperor's legacy, not admit that everything had changed.
When the Navy fired on one of his ships, and he was sort of forced to see how Horus had tainted every single marine's honor and trustworthiness he went into the pain glove to figure out what to do. That's when he was given the vision of the Iron Cage. He didn't blunder into it blindly, he knew that he needed to 1)prove his legion's loyalty and 2)do something drastic since his marines didn't want to found new chapters anyway. Taking on Perturabo killed three birds with one stone really. It let the Fists vent themselves, kicked the Iron Warriors back to the EoT, and thinned the ranks a bit so that the zealots could go off as Black Templars and the newer recruits could be Crimson Fists.
As a final point, it's said that Dorn outlived most of his brothers and was greatly dismayed as he saw the imperium he cared for falling deeper into the past. Taking the opportunity to more or less single handedly stop a Black Crusade is one of the better ways to go really.
As far as hating the Ultramarines...I don't really. Sure I hate the Codex because the Legions were deep fried win with a side of awesome-sauce, but 10000 years is a little long to hold a grudge. The Ultramarines did'n't totally sit out the Heresy either. They spent their time kicking Word Bearer ass, and we all know they were the real bad guys anyway.
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Post by: Henners91
The Ultramarines are awesome in the fluff; but that doesn't stop them being the "default" faction; the most common one... the one I feel I am most likely to encounter on the tabletop: That diminishes their value significantly.
Throwback to old WoW arguement: Undead Rogues, some could find them an awesome class to play with and love their racial ability; it was a good config... But it became so typical that it really was the "default" state: And that made those that used them 'Noobs'...
And I will admit, despite being a huge noob myself; I'd probably look upon a UM player as more than likely a noob? Bah maybe that's an unfair statement as said noob would probably own my arse... But still, show some imagination; there are plenty of codex chapters out there... The one advantage to picking Ultramarines is the host of heroes you get access to and you don't have to convert them!
But can I talk? I picked the next most "typical" faction from my viewpoint: The Blood Ravens, the choice of all DoW-influenced newcomers heh...
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Post by: Inquisitor Lord Bane
Everywhere I go, all I hear is about the Ultramarines being the most common. I have only ever seen ONE Ultra army in my 6 years of 40k. Dark Angels and Black Templars seem more popular. And with the 5th edition codex blatently saying that you can take the characters and just rename them and use them as your own, theres no point in the Ultramarines other than as a "how-to" for building a codex chapter. They allow zero creativity, as the whole 2nd company is named down to individual squads, and they have exacting numbers on whats what, company and squad markings are premade, and the fact that they have the most powerful characters is overshadowed by the fact that if I met more then one person who played them, odds are the armies would be almost identical. Might as well play with Legos, boys and girls
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Post by: Manchu
Chaosgyro wrote:Out of all the primarchs, Dorn probably had the most genuine "love" for the Emperor. Horus may have been the favored one, but I don't think anyone else really saw the Emp as 'dad'. I mean, he was the only one to actively seek out the crusade fleets bearing a gift. What I'm getting at is that Dorn held a deep respect and love for the Imperium as he saw in its golden age. After finding his father's body he went out and chased Chaos with his legion for a while, when he came back and was presented with this Codex thing he was pretty much flabergasted. As stated in Index Astartes II he couldn't comprehend that people would no longer trust the primarchs/space marines. He wanted to continue the Emperor's legacy, not admit that everything had changed.
Denial ain't just a river, Chaosgyro. You're right about everything but your conclusion: Dorn probably did think of the Emperor as a father more than the other Primarchs. It was for that reason that the Emperor's being Golden Throne'd did such a number on him, driving him to vengeance-motivated recklessness. It stands to reason (from the "facts" of established fluff) that, if left to his own devices, he would have senselessly and counter-productively smashed his Legion to pieces against whatever traitors he might come across. The next step would be attacking fellow loyalists in a haze of holier-than-thou ("You never loved the Emperor like I did, Roboute!") paranoia. In other words, Dorn's psyche was gradually ripening for a classic descent into chaos. Roboute's stern insistence on the Codex pulled him back eventually. But Dorn's mania survives in the Black Templars. I think the Templars are a good contrast to the Ultramarines. While the Ultramarines are still pursuing the Emperor's original goal of establishing an Imperium dominated by a healthy, progressive humanity--i.e., ending the Grimdark or, more accurately, Old Night once and for all--the BT are trapped in a perpetual crusade that supposedly protects humanity but certainly doesn't advance it. To put a finer point on this, evn if the Imperium itself were to fall Ultramar would still stand and the wider Imperium could be rebuilt with fidelity to His Divine Majesty's vision from the gleaming redoubt of Roboute Gulliman.
The point of this thread was to cheer on the Ultramarines, who represent what is worth saving about humanity. But I have no doubt that this point will continue to be undermined especially now that a UM movie has been announced.
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Post by: Marshal2Crusaders
Dorn went crazy for a while after the Heresy. During the Scouring it was the Imperial Fists AND the Ultramarines who did all the work, the Space Wolves were the only other Chapter slightly intact.
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Post by: Owain
I agree; Ultramarines take a lot of flak because they're not as grimdark but Humanity has a lot to learn from them. This admittedly causes GW to give them a little too much attention.
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Post by: Quintinus
Manchu wrote:
Since Third Edition, the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium has grown ever darker. The forces of the Imperium, which we could take for granted as the good guys back in Rogue Trader, subscribe to a code of morality that we in the real world would have a hard time identifying as socially acceptable much less praiseworthy. And yet 40k fans love it. I personally think it’s primarily because we have so many other sci-fi franchise ramming conventional contemporary morals (noble though they may be) down our throats. It can therefore be refreshing exercise in imagination to immerse oneself into a world where love, tolerance, and openness are sure-fire ways to doom the species. I also think that we recognize a lot of our own flawed proclivities in the grim darkness and can healthily deal with them as imaginary, not letting ourselves become bigots and hatemongers in real life. In any case, the gothic horror of ignorance and constant war fueled by religious hate is part of what makes 40k a lot of fun.
I'd argue with you. The Imperium was actually -more- evil in RT. If Space Marines came into contact with Daemons, they were killed or mind wiped. Entire worlds were murdered if they were suspected of heretics. Space Marines open fire on innocents. Space Marines are serial killers, psychos with armor. They were probably actually the bad guys until Chaos reared its ugly head. Slaves to Darkness is still to date one of the darkest most fethed up pieces of background I have read.
If anything, since 3rd edition WH40k has become less grimdark. Space Marines are the good guys. Chaos is just "Space Marines gone bad".
The problem is, the Ultramarines really aren't interesting anymore. They used to be. To me, had their old background still be around, they would be a much loved chapter even if they were the most common. Why? Calgar was a pompous jerk. He thought that Space Marines were so powerful they could deflect any bombardment or attack. That's why the Tyranids got through so easily.
Now, the background on the battle for Macragge is "Tyranids attack, the Ultramarines win! Yay! And Marneus killed the Hive Queen! He is soooo cool! (x2)"
Had the Ultramarines had a dark side to them, they would be interesting. Nope. It's all gone, replaced by POWAH FISTS!!
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Post by: jmurph
Saying that UMs are "boring good guys" is a gross oversimplification. They had a primarch who organized one of the finest systems in the Imperium, bringing it up to a level unmatched almost anywhere through organizational efficiency and order. That's a tough struggle for any humans, even if it isn't very glamorous!
Roboute then meekly handed over his legion power in an attempt to save the space marines and persuade his brethren to restructure as the Imperium was very mistrustful towards them. Eventually, the loyalists all saw the wisdom in this, even if they didn't like it.
The ultramarines continue to be a chapter of honor and bravery, dedicated to protecting the people of the Imperium and the legacy of the Emperor. They don't have any dark secret, they don't wear dresses, and they aren't vikings. Just tireless defenders of humanity in a bleak future where war is everywhere and betrayal commonplace.
That may not mean much to everybody, but that is preference.
Personally, I respect the UMs self sacrificing nobility. They show a character and honor lacking in some chapters. Like the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Salamanders, they are resolute in protecting humanity and, along with the Sallies and Space Wolves, seem to actually be concerned with human well being. They are not concerned with being "special snowflakes".
They are god guys, plain and simple. And some people don't like that.
What is odd is how people moan about UMs (and SMs in general) instead of doing something constructive with their chosen army/faction. I guess that's easier. I have Slaanesh and Nurgle Chaos and Ultras and Space Wolves. I like aspects of all of them, but I can identify with the UMs.
Also:
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Post by: Manchu
@jmurph: Agree 100%, obviously.
Also, I'm tired of people arguing that the UM have a cheesy background. I just read over the character backgrounds for the BA termies in the new Space Hulk. Sergeant Lorenzo is 650 years old. He's fought valiantly for six centuries but is still looking for the opportunity to "redeem" himself after some (not even personal) defeat when he was fifty? That's cheesier than Kraft macaroni. The truth is that every chapter has something that's slightly ridiculous going on with their background. All SM are geared to be the "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!" so why pick on the UM particularly? My guess is too look cynical (or, these days, to fit in) and therefore to seem knowledgeable.
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Post by: Dragonlover
I used to dislike the Ultramarines due to the fact that they were the ultimate in generic Marines, the template for how to do it so to speak. Not to mention they were everywhere.
Then I read Apologist's plog over on Warseer, and while I'd never play an army of them, I'm pretty much neutral to them now. Plus I'm intrigued as to how the power struggle within the Chapter will go once Calgar snuffs it.
Dragonlover
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Post by: Manchu
@Dragonlover: please post a link to this Apologist's plog.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
The Alpha Legion is the true savior of humanity.
Gulliman would lead humanity into ruin with his pride and stubbornness.
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Post by: Eversor-Jon
Sorry, but I'm going to be getting busy elsewhere in a second so I'd drop the comment that Salamanders are also fairly morally correct, since they tend to fight for the people of the Imperium. One of the most obvious signs of this is when a minor SM Chapter fired Whirlwinds into a camp full of Orks and Imperium Citizens alike, the Captain was boasting about it until he turned around to face the Salamander's Chapter Master, and was promptly chewed the hell out.
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Post by: Manchu
@Orkeosaurus: The only thing more proud and stubborn than an Ultramarine is a UM hater, I'd say. (Also, love your sig multilasers.)
@Eversor-Jon: Riveting tale, chap (cool story, bro). Hadn't heard that one before. Do you have a source? I'd really like to know what chapter that captain was from.
Sallies and S-Pups are both compassionate in their ways. But do the populations of Nocturne or Fenris fare as well as those of Ultramar much less Macragge in particular?
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Post by: Dragonlover
Manchu wrote:@Dragonlover: please post a link to this Apologist's plog.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146205 is the link. Quick warning: it's 44 pages of awesome, and you may be filled with the uncontrollable urge to make a truescale Marine army.
Manchu wrote:Riveting tale, chap (cool story, bro). Hadn't heard that one before. Do you have a source? I'd really like to know what chapter that captain was from
Marines Malevolent during the 3rd War for Armageddon. Source is either the Codex: Armageddon or an Index Astartes article from the time.
Dragonlover
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Post by: beef
BrotherStynier wrote:Manchu wrote:BrotherStynier wrote:And you're a Space Wolf?
Despite what our friend Gwar may say GW has said that the Space Wolves are larger than your average chapter, far larger. At one point I believe it was said that Grimnar's Company had 3,000 Marines in it. Also Fenris is believed to be much larger than Earth with a population similar to modern Earth, albeit a much more nomadic population. So I would still have to believe that the Space Wolves are larger than the average Chapter and possibly the size of 4 other chapters but we won't know until October.
No where does its state anyof this, There are no no's for any of the great companies Lexi does not count as most of the stuff their is wishfull fan fiction.
Russ avoided the Civil war by creating one Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers, that suffered from mutation and was ultimately disbanded.
Atleast thats what he wanted the imperiam to think
Grim.Badger wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)
No where does it state guillaman was arrogant, another misconception without backing.
BrotherStynier wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:Codex was a wise choice. That way, there could never be another Horus (on such a scale).
Unless you look at the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven brethren. The other Unforgiven still answer to the Dark Angels Inner Circle essentially meaning that they are the size of their Legion prior to the Heresy, if not slightly larger.
Here we go again. Pre heresy the DA sent 50000 (or was it 5000) marines from caliban under luthor to the lion (hh series descent of angels (the second book) so i doubt the DA have that many succesors running around today
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn I dont know how to use the multi quote or the colours properly, I must have been away for to long
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Post by: Thor665
jmurph wrote:Saying that UMs are "boring good guys" is a gross oversimplification. They had a primarch who organized one of the finest systems in the Imperium, bringing it up to a level unmatched almost anywhere through organizational efficiency and order. That's a tough struggle for any humans, even if it isn't very glamorous!
....
They are god guys, plain and simple. And some people don't like that.
Manchu wrote:@jmurph: Agree 100%, obviously.
Also, I'm tired of people arguing that the UM have a cheesy background. ...The truth is that every chapter has something that's slightly ridiculous going on with their background. All SM are geared to be the "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!" so why pick on the UM particularly? My guess is too look cynical (or, these days, to fit in) and therefore to seem knowledgeable.
I would note that perhaps the "problem" here is that the other chapters are a bit more interesting in their "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!". For instance - say I wanted to bash on the Space Wolves. Well, their primarch is hot headed and overly boisterous. Corax? Too convinced of his own brilliance and cleverness. Dorn? Probably pompous and depending on which fluff you believe vis'a'vi the Iron Warrior battle - an idiot too. Sanguinus? Has the sin of anger bubbling beneath his perfect exterior. Every single primarch has some sort of flaw or bad habit, or lack of skill in some aspect of their job that makes them slightly flawed and thus also slightly more human.
Roboute has...
Well, yeah. That's a pretty good reason as tof why people pick on his particular brand of "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!" I suspect. Even Superman, of whom I am quite a fan over Batman for the record, has some flaws that he has to overcome. Yes, he overcomes them and yes he makes the right decisions constantly, but at least he has the flaws and/or the poor thoughts to begin with. Roboute and his Ultramarines have stopped showing even the slightest blemish to their record lately.
Vladsimpaler wrote:The problem is, the Ultramarines really aren't interesting anymore. They used to be. To me, had their old background still be around, they would be a much loved chapter even if they were the most common. Why? Calgar was a pompous jerk. He thought that Space Marines were so powerful they could deflect any bombardment or attack. That's why the Tyranids got through so easily.
Now, the background on the battle for Macragge is "Tyranids attack, the Ultramarines win! Yay! And Marneus killed the Hive Queen! He is soooo cool! (x2)"
Had the Ultramarines had a dark side to them, they would be interesting. Nope. It's all gone, replaced by POWAH FISTS!!
I quote this text in order to reaffirm the veracity of the thoughts stated within it.
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Post by: Manchu
Gulliman's flaw is his rigidity (some call it pride--but that's only half of the picture), which almost led to a civil war among the loyalists right after the Heresy. Everyone who hates him has pointed that out and I agree with them . . . to a point. The Codex is the embodiment of Gulliman's reliance on pre-established hierarchies and strategies, which is a generally sound but ultimately insufficient approach to war. The Ultramarines therefore easily deal with ninety percent of the problems they face but then run into something totally unexpected--like a Tyranid hive fleet bearing down on them--and for a while they are totally paralyzed, not with fear but with an inability to deal with novel situations.
The really interesting thing about the Ultramarines is that when they are forced into "thinking outside of the box" it's not merely a pragmatic but moreover a moral, quasi-theological issue. If we do what's going to work and win in this situation, they might say, are we turning away from the Codex? Given that they believe (quite correctly, in my estimation) that the Codex has preserved the stability of the Imperium since the Heresy, every little compromise is fraught with the danger of re-igniting past betrayals. (This is kind of discussed in Graham McNeill's "Chains of Command," albeit in less dramatic terms.) Ultramarines are like D&D-style paladins: unlike the fighters (IF), barbarians (SW), and rogues (Alpha Legion), they do not allow themselves the convenience of fighting in merely the most effective way. They have a Code to uphold and honor, which constitutes for them the principles that make humanity worthy of survival and dominance over all other forms of life.
And that staunch defense leads to the arrogance that others have accused them of showing in the face of threats that they are clearly unprepared to meet. UM walk a fine line, like all paladin archetypes, between honoring a set of worthy principles and honoring themselves as the manifestation of those principles. In other words, hubris is inherent to the UM in a manner that the other Chapters don't experience. Sallies are humble (as a result of having been thoroughly humbled), DA and BA are caught up in past and current shames respectively, Wolves are not self-conscious enough, Fists are too single-minded, Black Templars are insane, etc, etc, etc. The best example of this is that no other chapter has its own mini-Imperium and I'd argue (again) that no other Chapter homeworld is as nice to live on as Maccragge. Seriously, if you had to live in the 40k universe as a civilian, where would you rather be?
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Post by: Thor665
Manchu wrote:Gulliman's flaw is his rigidity (some call it pride--but that's only half of the picture), which almost led to a civil war among the loyalists right after the Heresy. Everyone who hates him has pointed that out and I agree with them . . . to a point.
I had thought that your contention was that a second civil war was coming based upon Dorn's actions and that the Codex and Guilliman stopped this. Do you separate that as a potential Heresy that the Codex stopped but that the Codex almost caused a civil war? For the record I do think the Codex is silly primarily in how Guilliman chose to implement it and I don't think Dorn was due a fall (but there's a couple widely divergent stories about this time and they are quite contradictory, so it does seem to come down to which you accept). But I had thought your contention was that the COdex was needed and that it stopped a second Heresy (which I translate as a second civil war) but I was curious where you drew the distinction.
The overt fluff purports the Codex as full of internets, dark elf boobies, and win.
As a civilian I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the 40k universe. I'd probably pick the Black Library if pressed - simply because the lure of truth would be too strong to resist methinks.
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Post by: Manchu
Thor, I'd bet reading the books in the BL makes you Lovecraft-style insane.
But good question, very good indeed. I think that the loyalists Primarchs were not themselves above falling to Chaos after the Heresy and that Dorn was the closest to that line out of the bunch. If he had continued, as I've detailed elsewhere in this thread, he would have been the next Horus and maybe even a worse one because he would claim to be for rather than against the Emperor (i.e., Inquisition's worst nightmare). Further, I think that Gulliman's imposition of the Codex prevented Dorn's fall (but that the seeds of it are still present in the BT) at the cost of almost provoking a non-heretical, purely political civil war. So, Heresy 2.0 on the one hand and near civil war on the other. Almost having the latter prevented the former.
I agree that it was silly to implement the Codex in such a fashion that you almost start a civil war right after (somewhat) averting the worst crisis in human history but that's what I mean by Gulliman's flaw being rigidity. "I'm right so feth all who disagree!" The most annoying part is that he was, in fact, right.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Well Manchu I'm glad you made this Thread. I was at the point were I wanted to make one myself. All of the "spess Marines suck" quips had become exasperating.
If you'll notice Ultramarine supporters have thoughtful multi-paragraph posts wereas the haters have "RowBoat Girlyman is a Smurf".
Anyways one thing that no one seems to bring up is that the Ultramarines are the only force whose name=their colour! That's awesome. Can you imagine if the Pinkos I mean Emperor's Children did that? (and no Black Legion doesn't count. To be equivilant they would simply be named "Black")
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
SInce this thread is already necroed, I'll chime in my appreciation for the defense of the Ultras. I dont play them, and dont model them (Though I do have an unpainted Sicarius that I plan to *one day* paint up all nice and wonderful) - but I do love 'em.
The points of discussion and conversation have been amny, and like Kami Canuck above me, I cant help but appreciate the disparity between Ultramarine haters - who, with some exceptions are more or less ranting- contrasting to the largely well reasoned and thought out defense of the Ultras. Such a thread, and such a defense is well warranted to be pushed to the top, IMO.
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Post by: Whatsit Tooya
I am not a big fan of the Ultra's. I must say that the only reason that I would start Space Marines is for the Black Templar  (I'm a medieval history junky) and Dark Angels  (go Unforgiven and Cypher).
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Post by: nobody
Manchu wrote:@Eversor-Jon: Riveting tale, chap (cool story, bro). Hadn't heard that one before. Do you have a source? I'd really like to know what chapter that captain was from.
Sallies and S-Pups are both compassionate in their ways. But do the populations of Nocturne or Fenris fare as well as those of Ultramar much less Macragge in particular?
IIRC, he didn't just chew out the commander, he knocked him out.
As far as how the population of Nocturne makes out, one of the recent short stories by Nick Kyne had one of the Salamanders companies assisting the nomads and other people from small villages migrate into a city that was hardened to deal with the regular volcanic upheavals that Nocturne goes through.
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Post by: 4M2A
I don't like them because they in my opinion they lack depth. They have never had to make a hard decision, for the ultramarines there is always a good way and they always take it.
They aren't even the nicest SM, that goes to the SW or the Salamanders. When innocent humans are going to be killed it's the SW who protest. In my eyes that leaves them as jus sucking up to the imperium.
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Post by: Melissia
Agreed on the nicest part. Space Wolves seem to treat human beings almost as equals, if not in fact as actual equals.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
well, except for that whole thing about using their home world as a giant blood fest filled with marauding barbarians committing every type of atrocity to one another to try to weed out the best after one or another binge of killing rape and plunder has reached its bloody climax...
The Space wolves are psychopaths in their own right; they show no mercy to some populations with little to no provocation, come in as protesting saviors for others, and above all, keep their home world as a horrific meat grinder for anyone not destined to become a space marine.
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Post by: Melissia
Kinda like... just about every other chapter?
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Well, except the Salamanders - they seem like perfectly nice fellows, who just happen to have to live on Planet Hell. Which is probably why they are so nice, having been subjected to all that, I suppose the best way to deal with it would be a certain sense of pleasantness and even optimism.
And of course, the Ultras, who seem to have the up most regard for the well being of citizens who inhabit their realm. If that stretches to the rest of the Imperium beyond looking to protect the Imperium itself, I cant say - though I'd imagine that their civic responsibility ends outside the boarders of Ultramar, and beyond that the obligation of the Ultramarines, and the only authority they have- is to fight for the Emperor.
Which is perhaps the ultimate trait of the Ultramarines - Duty- knowledge of what that is, and what that entails, from taking on the well fare of the inhabitents of the worlds that comprise Ultramar (and in doing so higlight tyhat faileure of the Imperium itself to fulfill its own duty in regards to its citizens) to knowing what the boundaries of their authority are outside of their own realm.
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Post by: 4M2A
I don't think SW are "good" as they still follow the imperiums belief that you must kill everything non human, but out of all the SM they care most about the average human.
From our point of veiw living on Fenris would be horrible, but the SW love it. They are proud to have been brought up there and don't want to change it. They may recruit from it but they don't use it as a training ground, it's just a deathworld. Like all other chapters they take the best from their planet. The human fenrisians don't do it to get chosen and to them SW are just a myth.
Towards humans SW are the most caring chapter. You can't really compare how SM treat xenos as they almost always kill them on sight.
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Post by: Melissia
Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.
Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.
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Post by: 4M2A
Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.
Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.
Sorry to go of topic here but what?
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Post by: nobody
4M2A wrote:Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.
Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.
Sorry to go of topic here but what?
I don't know either, but the mental image I get means I'll never look at a multi-laser the same way again.
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Post by: Melissia
There were hints at a... relationship... in one of his books, between a far seer and some Marine or other.
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Post by: 1hadhq
4M2A wrote:Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.
Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.
Sorry to go of topic here but what?
eldar farseer macha.
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Post by: 4M2A
My opinion of Goto's books just found a new low.
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Post by: aka_tizz
I think the next Goto book will feature the son of Macha growing up to be a fully-fledged Marseer, and the happy family life of the Angeloses. Something like the Osbournes, just in 40k
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Post by: Melissia
Personally I see the only canon for Blood Ravens are the DoW games and official Relic Entertainment fluff, seeing as they're Relic's personal chapter. So let's move on!
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:Kinda like... just about every other chapter?
Except the Ultramarines. Automatically Appended Next Post: 4M2A wrote:My opinion of Goto's books just found a new low.
Indeed. SMs are sterile.
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Post by: Melissia
IIRC, the Ultramarines still have blood arenas where they make children kill eachother in order to determine which one is most worthy of becoming Marines.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:IIRC, the Ultramarines still have blood arenas where they make children kill eachother in order to determine which one is most worthy of becoming Marines.
Probably, but where do you recall this from?
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Post by: Melissia
It was part of the Blood Ravens fluff... mind you, they aren't a perfectly codex chapter, but then they're about the only chapter that I've ended up following closely due to the games.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
The Dawn of War Books? Are those by Mr. Goto?
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Post by: Melissia
No, it was mentioned in-game in one of the various fluff blurbs, it's the fluff behind the arena section of the Typhon maps.
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Post by: metallifan
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Dawn of War Books? Are those by Mr. Goto?
This is the biggest picture I could find...
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Post by: Henners91
Ultramarines are just too.... nice... They dispel the illusion of grimdark with their insistence on moral options... And hugging the Tau...
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Post by: Manchu
This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.
If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?
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Post by: 1hadhq
Manchu wrote:This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.
If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?
Any record where the Ultramarines opposed the Inquisition?
Lord Macragge would maybe use his inbreed abilities and drown the Inquisition and the administratum in paperwork.
Several millenia later, war N°3 had a competent Imperial governor instead of this xenoslover.
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Post by: 4M2A
Lord Macrage would sit down for the next 10 years and write a book about the fair treatment of victims of daemonic incursions, then try and force it onto the inquisition.
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Post by: Manchu
I really don't know that Calgar would have opposed the destruction of the "tainted" population. (If he would have, it certainly wouldn't have been through nearly going to war with the rest of the Imperium. And anything less than that would have resulted in their deaths anyway.) My point is that surely this is a situation in which the Ultramarines would not be "too boring," etc. Some will no doubt respond that this is the sort of hard decision that GW never has the Ultramarines face BUT that's ridiculous: Guilliam faced a far tougher situation at the close of the Heresy when it looked like Dorn was going to be the next Horus. Thankfully, it didn't come to war but it is clear that the Ultramarines would have pushed it that far.
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Post by: Bloodfrenzy187
LunaHound wrote:Ppl play what they can relate to.
Ppl that are grim goth and emo , will subconsciously pick armies which reflects that.
Im going to be burnt on a steak now arnt i >.>
Ppl dont like valiant heroes anymore , only emo ones like Batman , Prototype , etc etc
Why would you say people don't like a valiant hero? I love to see a hero that is courageous and honorable and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I love the fact that there is a chapter that presents some semblance of normalcy in an Imperium that is all gloom and doom.
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Post by: Thor665
Carlovonsexron wrote:The Space wolves are psychopaths in their own right... above all, keep their home world as a horrific meat grinder for anyone not destined to become a space marine.
Two thoughts - you might as well blame Cadia or Catachan for being a horrible place as well as blame Fenris. The nature of the planet is unstable and unpleasant.
Second - you're projecting your own ideals for what makes a good place/society to live onto Fenris. For the occupants of that world living a life of honor, violence, raiding, and constant war is thought of as a good life. Why would the Space Wolves want to take that away from them?
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Manchu wrote:This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.
If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?
I'm not sure. I think he would have done pretty much the same thing. Be outraged, try to stop it but eventually back down.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Thor665 wrote:Carlovonsexron wrote:The Space wolves are psychopaths in their own right... above all, keep their home world as a horrific meat grinder for anyone not destined to become a space marine.
Two thoughts - you might as well blame Cadia or Catachan for being a horrible place as well as blame Fenris. The nature of the planet is unstable and unpleasant.
Second - you're projecting your own ideals for what makes a good place/society to live onto Fenris. For the occupants of that world living a life of honor, violence, raiding, and constant war is thought of as a good life. Why would the Space Wolves want to take that away from them?
1)The Imperium is a place where in the span of four months you can flatten an entire continent to make way for a victory parade (Ullanor Crusade) if you really wanted to - making ANY planet in the Imperium a nice place to live is doable, but it seems no one really has the interest of doing just that at heart - save the Ultramarines. Admittedly, we dont know, and there certainly isn't any evidence of them doing such for the sake of a planet's population - but you certainly cant see anyone other then the Ultramarines doing it, except for maybe the Salamanders.
2)Because the 'good' of that life is only 'good' for the winners - the losers of those fights have no other options open to them save death, slavery, starvation and dishonor. How well of a place a place just happens to be isnt measured by the winners, by those who do best and are happy - its measured by just how happy the down trodden are.
There is a TV show called 'Anthony Bourdains No Reservations' a good show (at least at one point - I havent heard the best about over the last few years) about a glone trotting ex-Chef from New York. In one, he goes to a remote podunk little village on the Amazon, lives that life a bit - a life that many civilized westerners look on as being a refreshing simplicity of life and life style, a return to primitive roots that might make us more happy.
Of course, the reality of the villagers was just the opposite - they'd take any chance to get out of there, to be free of basically living like half savages in what amounts to a -albeit pretty- version of hell. Kind words offered by the host about the beauty of life in the village were returned with a 'if you want it, you can have it- I dont.' to paraphrase.
I really dont think the people on Fenris are all that happy about their lot in life, save the victorious warlords and their tribes, and those who get to be Space marines,
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Post by: 4M2A
Bloodfrenzy187 Wrote:
Why would you say people don't like a valiant hero? I love to see a hero that is courageous and honorable and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I love the fact that there is a chapter that presents some semblance of normalcy in an Imperium that is all gloom and doom.
There are very few people in the world who are purely heroic. I hate to be pessimistic but negative emotions are much stronger and more common than positive ones, thats just human nature. It's a lot easier to relate to people if we can understand their position.
It also makes for an interesting story. The problem with UM isn't always that they are too good but that they also have it too easy. If Gw wants a SM chapter to win a battle you can be sure the Ultramarines were there. For a story to be worth reading there must be a strugle either the characters fighting their emotions or a good hero against impossible odds. Neither of these are in most ultramarine fluff. For example my custom chapter are very similar to UM in the way they think but to keep it interesting I had almost the entire chapter wipe out so they are hardly able to keep going.
Carlovonsexron Wrote
The Imperium is a place where in the span of four months you can flatten an entire continent to make way for a victory parade (Ullanor Crusade) if you really wanted to - making ANY planet in the Imperium a nice place to live is doable, but it seems no one really has the interest of doing just that at heart - save the Ultramarines. Admittedly, we dont know, and there certainly isn't any evidence of them doing such for the sake of a planet's population - but you certainly cant see anyone other then the Ultramarines doing it, except for maybe the Salamanders.
Thats incorrect you can't make Fenris a nice place. The reason it's like it is is the relation it has to it's sun. Without moving a planet there is no way to change this. Plus the ultramarines didn't make it a nice place, it's always been like that. Sure there has been ups and downs but it's one of the nicest places in the imperium and it was like that before Guilliman arrived.
As Thor said the SW have a completely different view of Fenris to you, they are proud to have lived there and they love it.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
4M2A wrote:
Thats incorrect you can't make Fenris a nice place. The reason it's like it is is the relation it has to it's sun. Without moving a planet there is no way to change this. Plus the ultramarines didn't make it a nice place, it's always been like that. Sure there has been ups and downs but it's one of the nicest places in the imperium and it was like that before Guilliman arrived.
As Thor said the SW have a completely different view of Fenris to you, they are proud to have lived there and they love it.
For starters, I'll say thats just much of Deus ex Machina as the fluff say 'Ultramarines are the ultimate perfection of the Spacemarine, and no others will ever come close to thier shiny Blue-Gold perfection'
I'll secondly say that, in my opinion at least, of course you make Fenris a nice place - or at least a nicer place. Clean up those asteroids that keep striking the planet for starters, that should help, and since there is in fact one solid piece of land that isnt submerged by oceans, the logical implication is that most of the 'land' on Fenris lays below the sea level present in the summer months - so pile up stone, and make it higher. And given that its the home planet of a Space marine chapter, I'm willing to bet that they may just have enough leeway to import food to feed any starving fenrisian mouths during the long winters. Now, you'll probably say 'that isnt it' or 'its not that simple' - but in areas where we worry about sinking land masses here on Earth, thats been exactly the answer - where we have to worry about starvation, in regions where you cant grow food, thats the only answer. - and these serve as a few examples of potential solutions to Fenris' problems.
And my concern isnt what the Space Wolves think of Fenris- its what every one who isnt a spacemarine who lives on Fenris thinks of Fenris - and I remain unconvinced that all those folks caught on the pointy end of their enemies swords, the ones who villages burned, family killed and made slaves and the destruction of everything they no and love around them takes place while rather uncaring wolf-lords look from beyond for reasons wholly unconcerned with how much suffering they might be going through really enjoys Fenris all that much.
The Imperium is a dark and cruel place because so often, it never seeks to answer problems with any solution other then blood. That's why it's 'Grimdark', and that reasoning isnt lost on me - if the Space wolves actually cared for the population on fenris beyond just wanting it to be a meat grinder to churn out spacewolf recruits (which is totally unnecessary, given the success of the Ultramarines recruiting from civilized worlds) then it wouldnt be grimdark, and it wouldnt be 40k as we know it.
But understand that its that reason, and no other why Fenris is 'unchangeable' and the Spacewolves, as a matter of fitting into all that, arnt nearly the stoic praetorians of good that the Ultramarines serve as.
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Post by: Manchu
Carlovonsexron wrote:I really dont think the people on Fenris are all that happy about their lot in life, save the victorious warlords and their tribes, and those who get to be Space marines,
That's like saying "the only people that are happy are the happy people." Ridiculous. I suggest you read some William King before trying to make any more points about the Space Wolves or Fenris.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Manchu, I think you are primarily right.
I also think that there is another point to why people dislike the Ultramarines.
Gamers, as a general guideline, tend to consider themselves separated from others. Many were picked on in school, and don't feel that they fit in. Much like other people who feel this way, many of them tend to respond by viewing popular or mainstream things as being bad or wrong. They will come up with reasons to justify their refusal to 'line up with all of the sheeple'. And, no, I don't exclude myself from this. I don't like the majority of popular movies, music, television, or books. Often, I find that upon examination, I simply dislike these things because they are popular.
I think that this applies to the Ultramarines.
As far as their fluff goes, I like them. The only reason I don't play them is that I like the Salamanders color scheme better.
But, thanks for bringing this up Manchu. Good conversation topic.
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Post by: IGLannister
I just don't like Rowboat. He's a jerkwad and a douchebag. The ultramarines can piss off too.
IG for life.
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Post by: Manchu
@JimSolo: I get the explanation. I just don't get how it applies to Ultramarines. The world of 40k is pretty far from the mainstream. I don't buy that Ultramarines stand in for Britney Spears and High School Musical. As I've said before, this is a matter of 12 year olds who love Ultramarines growing up to be 16 years olds who hate them. But 16 year olds usually get over themselves in a few years.
@IGLannister: Your post constitutes more evidence for KamikazeCanuck's observations two pages ago. And very likely my own above, as well.
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Post by: Lupe
To be honest, the fact that Roboute is a "jerkwad and a douchebag" makes the Ultramarines background far more interesting.
I'd actually like the fluff to play that tune more. Righteous, chivalrous, but annoying the rest of the Imperium by being just a bit too perfect.
As it stands now, they're righteous, chivalrous, and the rest of the Imperium would very much rather carve them statues.
Also, I do have some beef with the whole Codex: Space Marines = Codex: Ultramarines thing that's been going around. There are a lot of other interesting codex chapters out there, and I'll understand if the Ultramarines get some more air time than the others, with their old man writing the codex and all. But damn it... 6 out eleven special characters in the book are ultramarines... honestly... And neither of them actually seems to be a jerk... Isn't the whole chain of "highly-decorated-bastions-of-morality-capable-of-feats-an-Astartes-shouldn't-even-pull-off "getting just a bit repetitive for you guys?
I could actually like Calgar more if he was an arrogant bastard, for instance, simply because it would give his character some kind of depth...
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Post by: IGLannister
Rowboat gets all pissy about his Codex Astartes. He doesn't care that these other Primarchs were actually defending Terra from Horus while Big Blue and his Douchemarines were picking their asses.
ID be mad too if that scumbag told me to split my troops cause they're too powerful. The moron wasn't even there, but he thinks he can dictate how to operate chapters of marines that held chaos at bay?
Like I said. Douchebag/jerkwad.
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Post by: Manchu
@Lupe: People always complain that the Ultramarines "perfection" makes them boring. Take a look at the world of 40k and you'll realize that's actually what makes them unique.
@IGLanniseter: Actually, Horus sent the largest portion of the Word Bearers in a feint against the Ultramarines. Although Guilliman ultimately triumphed over Lorgar, he had been drawn quite far from Terra. Would you criticize Leman Russ or Jagahti Kahn for not being at Terra when Horus finally made it there? Do I even need to bring up the Lion on this score?
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Manchu wrote:Carlovonsexron wrote:I really dont think the people on Fenris are all that happy about their lot in life, save the victorious warlords and their tribes, and those who get to be Space marines,
That's like saying "the only people that are happy are the happy people." Ridiculous. I suggest you read some William King before trying to make any more points about the Space Wolves or Fenris.
Well perhaps it was badly worded, though I think it still has salience to it. It hard to interpret the Space Wolves as being all that humanitarian when the primary reason they stick up for people is because they were good killers; perhaps I'm totally wrong about Fenris' ability to be terraformed (I'll more then accept that I could be - and perhaps even am) but its not like that, even baring actual physical reconstruction of the planted life couldnt be made more manageable - and that if the reason the population of Fenris are proud of their warrior traditions because it makes them great warriors and space marines, all the needs to be done is to look upon chapter like the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists to see that some of the finest chapters need no such life to be turned into the Emperors great champions.
And what Fenris amounts to is alot of unneeded death and bloodshed - but thats my take on it, and I hope it reads as more reasonable then some of my other posts.
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Post by: IGLannister
Key word: feints. If myself and a bunch of my brothers died protecting Holy Terra from Horus, and Mr Big Shot comes along and says, "Hey, fellas, let's split everyone up so no one becomes too powerful. Yeah, I know you had this big war, and I was getting the run-around, my bad, but serious, we gotta split you all up.", yeah, ID be mad.
That's my issue with the smurfs. And the way im putting it, I def think ID have the support of a few primarchs behind me. Who is this fool that thinks all the sudden he gets to call the shots? While they were guarding the Capitol of the Imperium from wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else, Smurfette and his Goons are playing tag in deep space? Come on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
In the big picture Gulliman prevented himself from becoming Emperor himself; he had the power to do it if he had wanted to, and if the Primarchs had come to blows over the codex, no one was left in a position to stop Gulliman from stomping over the rest of the legions with his own - already larger then all the others before the heresy, and totally fresh from not fighting wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else
He did a noble act - he ensured that he would never be able to become Emperor himself, along with no one else being able to claim that title either.
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Post by: Lupe
The Codex Astartes WAS a good idea.
Not only did it forever prevent a further Heresy, and the full might of one (or more) Space Marine legions from being at the whim of a single leader, but it also made cooperation between the chapters easier, because the differences would not be as great as between individual legions. Each commander could, of course, choose the approach he felt more comfortable with, but in the end all other chapters would be aware of what to expect from their allies.
It also represented a great innovation, one that no other primarch had dared or cared to attempt. It was a a refined and distilled military treatise, but in the bigger picture, it was supposed to be just a crude method to adapt to changing times, just the first step down an evolutionary path stretching across millennia.
It wasn't even restricted to Guilliman's own tactical opinions. It incorporated some of Perturabo's methods of siege warfare; Magnus' mastery over the Warp; Corax's guerilla doctrines, and more...
But, in the end, the Imperium saw it - in no part due to his own aggressive marketing campaign - as Guilliman's move to establish the superiority of his own ways. And when it was finally and grudgingly accepted, the Adeptus Astartes took it as gospel, rather than guidelines. Instead of evolving with it, they dragged it into stagnation, clinging to it to justify every decision. And, when times changed once again, and the dying Imperium was stabilized, they began to respect it to the letter rather than in spirit, resulting in an Imperium that was about as inflexible as before, but without the capacity for further expansion...
What the Chapters turned the Codex Astartes into can not be blamed on Guilliman, regardless of how much you hate the man, or how much a jerk he comes across as...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:@Lupe: People always complain that the Ultramarines "perfection" makes them boring. Take a look at the world of 40k and you'll realize that's actually what makes them unique.
It does, it really does. I just wished that perfection would annoy their contemporaries a bit... You know, a bit of envy... Heroes without flaws ran out of style at the end of the middle ages, and while a good chivalric story is something I can appreciate, it seems like poor penmanship to try and fit them into a setting so dark that it's no longer about shades of gray but shades of black and all-consuming-light-sucking-void.
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Post by: Manchu
More than any other Primarch, Guilliman is the anti-Horus. He should have been made Warmaster, as he himself knew. What he did not know--what none of us know--is what the Emperor truly intended with regards to what would eventually become the Heresy. Some people believe the Emperor was blind to Horus's faults. That sounds like heresy if I ever heard it. The truth, therefore, is likely more complicated. The fact that Ultramar is most like what the Emperor claimed to want for the galaxy at large speaks for itself.
The Codex was never an attempt to keep up with changing times. It was meant to be and has proven to be an extremely effective means of keeping Space Marines from turning and, in the event of their treachery, of limiting the damage. For many reasons, Dorn failed to see this. Russ rejected it for his own reasons (at least partly to do with the unstable nature of the Canis Helix, I'd guess). The Blood Angels follow it as closely as they can, considering their own special problems. It seems no one bothered to tell the Dark Angels about it. Everyone else got on board. The fact that the Imperial Fists became the staunchest supporters of its tenants after the Ultramarines themselves tells you something about how important the Codex really is. (The fact that the Black Templars totally rejected it, meanwhile, tells you something about Dorn IMO.) Automatically Appended Next Post: @Lupe: We might see that sort of thing once there is more Deathwatch material out there. You would do well to keep an eye on FFG's upcoming roleplaying game in this regard. Automatically Appended Next Post: IGLannister wrote:As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?
Well, you're criticizing Guilliman alone for things that both of them could be criticized about.
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Post by: Lupe
I really did see Guilliman as quite the perfectionist.
Perhaps even more so than Fulgrim, whose approach to perfection consisted of "learn everything you can in every field". Guilliman observed and pondered, then found methods that worked and refined them through successive and successful use. Had he lived, I'm quite confident the Codex would undergo massive revisions every now and then, as some things were no longer relevant, and some things just became relevant.
Certainly the proper use of a Land Raider Crusader would have prompted him to write an update, for instance...
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Post by: 4M2A
@Carlovonsexron
Taking all the rocks and building a new continent would work for a couple of years but once Fenris reaches the stage of it's cycle when it is closest to the sun the continent would either be ripped apart by the pressure put on the planet or or just melted by the heat. Either way it ends up back in the sea.
Another huge factor is that the Fenrisians don't know about the imperium. By having contact with them you would effectively destroy their entire culture. They need to stay isolated to continue.
The only Death world humans whos opinions we know are Catachans and they are also happy to live on Catachan.
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Post by: Henners91
Manchu wrote:This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.
If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?
He would have sat everyone down at a table and served pure mineral water. He would have encouraged both parties to share their ideas and try to debate them in the hope that new and compelling points might be raised which could influence either party to augment or change their views. He would then try to probe for a consensus and, if one was found, hope that everyone gets along swimmingly.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Manchu wrote: Would you criticize Leman Russ or Jagahti Kahn for not being at Terra when Horus finally made it there? Do I even need to bring up the Lion on this score?
Why do you claim that Jagathai Khan wasn't there when he was?
Russ got distracted....
Lion had the right idea but didn't move...
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Post by: Manchu
The point stands.
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Post by: CajunMan550
This.... this right here is what makes me ok with the Ultra Marines this guy-
Lexicanum wrote:As one might expect from an embodiment of the Ultramarine's nobility, Calgar is immune to fear and is resolutely courageous under fire; where lesser men would dive for cover when being fired upon, Marneus Calgar takes quick stock of the situation, decides the best course of action, and only if he so decides to leap into cover, then he will do so.
28 volumes of records dedicated to the achievements and deeds of Calgar, surpassed only by Roboute Guilliman, are stored within a vault at the Macragge's Chapter Fortress. Amongst these achievements include: leading the breaching assault on the Tyranid Hive Ship Behemoth Primus, single-handedly holding the gate against an Ork Horde for a night and a day at the Siege of Zalathrax, defeating an bat, thus leading to the rout of Eldar forces at the Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, and recapturing the star fort Indomitable from the daemonic hordes of M'kar the Reborn.4 Eldar Avatar in single-handed com
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Manchu wrote:@JimSolo: I get the explanation. I just don't get how it applies to Ultramarines. The world of 40k is pretty far from the mainstream. I don't buy that Ultramarines stand in for Britney Spears and High School Musical. As I've said before, this is a matter of 12 year olds who love Ultramarines growing up to be 16 years olds who hate them. But 16 year olds usually get over themselves in a few years.
@IGLannister: Your post constitutes more evidence for KamikazeCanuck's observations two pages ago. And very likely my own above, as well.
I was just about to say that.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
4M2A wrote:@Carlovonsexron
Taking all the rocks and building a new continent would work for a couple of years but once Fenris reaches the stage of it's cycle when it is closest to the sun the continent would either be ripped apart by the pressure put on the planet or or just melted by the heat. Either way it ends up back in the sea.
It was just an example based on that fact that there is at least some stable landmass on Fenris, up by the poles, and the rational as to why here on Earth areas are more or less prone to flooding and shoreline rearrangement (because they are at or even below sea level - which really messes things up when ice ages start and end, like what happens on Fenris all the time, or so I've come to believe.) It was really just example of simple ways there might be an answer to the planets ailments - perhaps they might work, perhaps they wouldn't.
In any event the argument served me an ill purpose - it distracts from the topic at hand, and doesn't really help the point I wanted to make, which was that the Space Wolves cant exactly be viewed as the Imperiums great Humanitarians any more then the Ultramarines or Salamanders - who both actively do help out their human populations that they are the stewards of.
I get that the rational behind that is a strong and involved warrior ethos, and that the Space Wolves being such a tradition bound chapter are loath to change it; its just that I don't entirely buy into the view point that every one truly shares that ethos all the time, under any and all circumstances, and that it leads to alot of suffering that doesn't really need to be happening on Fenris at all - not when other chapters have track records just as (and for some debatably more glorious and manage their own recruiting worlds with out any eye towards having as sever a 'hands off policy' as the wolves seem to.
But I'm willing to admit that these are my thoughts - I havent read any of the Space Wolves books - and the one book that i've read that mentions them -Thousand Sons- portrays them as little better then Chaos itself, in many respects.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. But even if Fenris could be made safer The SWs would never allow it. They believe its what makes them strong.
That what you saying too?
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
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Post by: Manchu
@Carl: I think it's your moralizing that made it unclear to KC. The SW and the people of Fenris are more alike culturally than the SW and the Ultramarines. To SW and "mortal" Fenrisians, a life of constant struggle against nature and battle with fellow warriors is totally proper. These guys aren't looking for any paradise other than Valhalla. Ultramarines, on the other hand, are rooted in the traditions of Macragge. For them, the fight is a means rather than an end. The end is the glorious reign of perfected Humanity--and war, while neither loathsome nor dignified inherently, must be pursued efficiently and in an orderly manner so as to prevent its noble prosecutors from ever enjoying it as if it were actually worthwhile of itself. For SW and UM alike, war is a way of life. But the SW embrace it with a wild abandon whereas the UM practice it like a fine art. You might even say that whereas war was the nature of Russ it was the talent of Guilliman.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
I agree with you totally on that point - but it begs the question of which truly has the best interest of humanity at heart, which is where my own points came up - because while I'll never deny the Wolves their place as some of, and in many ways the total equals of the Ultras...
... that is largely limited to realm of warfare. The wolves may show respect to mortal humans, but its only, and exclusively on the wolves own terms. Terms which I'm not exactly convinced are really all that good, if ever taken out of the theater and context of war.
I think that this coincidences with your point about Guilliman being the anti-Horus, and the musings your post inspired about the Dune like vision of humanity - perhaps as lead by Guilliman, the only primarch to be able to leave a legacy of planets truly exposed to the glorious dawn that was the great crusade, crafted into beautiful, prosperous, peaceful worlds that never the less were stood protected by the stalwart might of both mortal and astarte armies without peer.
In this light, the wolves become a finely honed weapon - the sword of the Emperor - but a sword, by its nature, is not a tool of peace or humanitarianism. It can only know a peer when meeting another weapon, and that is in the field of combat.
And that sort of what I've been trying to point to - if the space wolves are ever 'champions' of the regular, mortal human, its not because the wolves have any greater care about the lives of mortals then any other marine chapter - they very likely value it either no more, or perhaps even less then other chapters. Which lay at the heart of their culture, and why they will never attempt to change it (The world and culture of Fenris) to make it easier.
But for acts of bravery and courage the wolves will bend over backwards - because it is the recognition of meeting another group that has the same function as the wolves - that of a honed weapon. But that recognition isnt something that should be confused with actually being compassion, care, or mercy.
The wolves are a weapon - no more, no less - this has both wonderful connotations, as well as bad ones.
The Ultramarines have a different purpose; perhaps the analogy of the Ultramarine is one of a hand that wields a weapon the same as a pen or a plow, or perhaps they are an ax, that can both cut enemies as well as harvest raw wood for use. Or perhaps they are supposed to be the mind that actually oversees it all, and Gulliman was all along supposed to be the lynch pin that would see the dawn of Mankinds Golden age as what is now the condition of the realm of Ultramar was supposed to be the condition of all humanity.
That might be too grand a vision for the Ultras; perhaps it isnt. But my point about the Space Wolves is about over. They are tools of war, heroes because they do what they were intended to do, and not because they really have compassion for the regular mortal human running around on any world you might happen to pass by, where as the Ultramarines actively take on the mantle of the good steward, at least to the worlds they are directly charged with providing those duties for.
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Post by: andain841
This may have been said before as I only skimmed the previous 8 pages. If I am repeating something that has already been said then I apologize. First of all I think it is rather silly to tar the Ultramarines as non-interesting because screaming 12 year olds trend towards Ultramarines. I would say that this is because it is inevitably the first army you are exposed to and is, generally, the way that new players assume space marines are "supposed to be painted". I, myself, have seen very few nice looking Ultramarine armies but the good ones that I have seen have been exceptional.
I also submit to you that the Ultramarines are awesome simply because they really are the ultimate "good guys" of the universe. Consider this, nearly every other faction of the Imperium takes the easy way out when confronted with a problem. They burn people at the stake, rule with an iron fist and generally act like medieval despots. I will agree that the Space Wolves are generally "good guys" but they don't control a miniature empire where people live in peace, harmony, and prosperity. The Ultramarines, through Ultramar, represent everything that is good in humanity. That they do this in a "grimdark" future where people are all too willing to kill, maim, or oppress their fellows speaks volumes about their character. It takes far more courage, and dare I say character, to do the right thing in a difficult situation than to do the easy thing in the same situation. With all of the power that the Ultramarines wield they don't use it to enrich themselves; they use it to improve the lives of people they fight to protect. That sort of selfless heroism in a universe that doesn't have any moral standards is not something to malign as "goody two shoes" it is something to admire (as much as we can admire fictional characters in a fictional universe). If the rest of the Imperium functioned half as well as Ultramar then it might not be coming apart at the seams.
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Post by: Rube
The only way I could look at the Ultramarines as anything other than the bland superman-clone chapter groomed by GW for the DBZ-watching 14 year old demographic, is if the stuff about the Ultramarines secretly being Alpha Legion turns out true. I mean, they'll never come out and say it, but all the stuff about Alpharius' alleged death coming from a dodgy Ultramarines report, and Omegon's naming similarities to the Ultramarine's Omega chapter symbol... I'd like more stuff like that please!
Yeah, I just don't like them as is because they're a good example of 'Telling, not Showing'. We're told they're tactical geniuses who contribute to the stability of the Imperium... but we're shown them getting easily fooled and out-maneuvered during the HH; freeing the Nightbringer thus allowing it to inflict untold destruction upon the Imperium; sending a single 'honour company' to major and important wars like the 13th Black Crusade; getting the crap kicked out of them during the Armageddon wars; and just generally never being shown them contributing in any meaningful way.
The only major battle we're shown them fighting and winning is the battle for Macragge, which was to save their own bacon anyway! Good going, Ultramarines!
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Post by: tallshortguy
IGLannister wrote:Key word: feints. If myself and a bunch of my brothers died protecting Holy Terra from Horus, and Mr Big Shot comes along and says, "Hey, fellas, let's split everyone up so no one becomes too powerful. Yeah, I know you had this big war, and I was getting the run-around, my bad, but serious, we gotta split you all up.", yeah, ID be mad.
That's my issue with the smurfs. And the way im putting it, I def think ID have the support of a few primarchs behind me. Who is this fool that thinks all the sudden he gets to call the shots? While they were guarding the Capitol of the Imperium from wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else, Smurfette and his Goons are playing tag in deep space? Come on.
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As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?
I'm sorry but that's dumb logic. You're making an argument as if they had a choice. They were racing back to Terra as fast as they could seeing that keeping them away was part of Horus' plan. That's like blaming a firefighter in another state for not putting out the fire in your house.
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Post by: nobody
tallshortguy wrote:IGLannister wrote:Key word: feints. If myself and a bunch of my brothers died protecting Holy Terra from Horus, and Mr Big Shot comes along and says, "Hey, fellas, let's split everyone up so no one becomes too powerful. Yeah, I know you had this big war, and I was getting the run-around, my bad, but serious, we gotta split you all up.", yeah, ID be mad.
That's my issue with the smurfs. And the way im putting it, I def think ID have the support of a few primarchs behind me. Who is this fool that thinks all the sudden he gets to call the shots? While they were guarding the Capitol of the Imperium from wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else, Smurfette and his Goons are playing tag in deep space? Come on.
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As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?
I'm sorry but that's dumb logic. You're making an argument as if they had a choice. They were racing back to Terra as fast as they could seeing that keeping them away was part of Horus' plan. That's like blaming a firefighter in another state for not putting out the fire in your house.
Your scenario is only half of what he described. In order to fully match it, the fireman in question has to come in after everybody else has finished putting out the fire and tell you that you have to split your family, or he'll beat you up.
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Post by: Manchu
@nobody: To really complete the metaphor, you'd have to mention that the family this fireman wanted to split up had a propensity to start fires and that the ones who died in that particular fire had actually started it. No matter how you look at it, Codex Astartes was a good idea.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Sorry, I only play doomed Chapters. The Ultramarines got off easy in the Heresy.
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Post by: Manchu
UMs are "good guys" by GrimDark standards, sure, but let's not go overboard. While Ultramar is a paradise materially-speaking, it's also a totalitarian military dictatorship. Anyone not drinking the proverbial blue koolaid would be utterly miserable and probably end up institutionalized (whether in a prison or asylum) or just plain euthanized. Fenris i
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Fenris is a cruel and savage world but it offers a kind of freedom. Carl is right to say that the SW don't carer about humanity at large. They only care about those who have shown courage and strength. They care, that is, about particular people. The UM don't--the UM care about Humanity not individual human "mortals." This is why I brought up First Armageddon.
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Post by: 4M2A
Manchu is right and has said something I have been trying to explain. UMs are good for the imperium but you still have no rights at all there. The only reason it's better place to live than the rest of the imperium is because it's not being attacked. The UMs are good soldiers but they don't really care anout the humans. You still end up dead if you disagree with anything the UM so they aren't nice.
The Ultramarines look so much at the bigger picture that they loose all the humanity that they still have. The SW and Salamanders still care about the average human.
The UMs care about Humanity but the SWs care about humans (yes there is a subtle difference). I don't think the SW only care about the brave humans, more that killing their own soldiers seemed like betraying your own people and the SW are a very loyal chapter.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
@Manchu - To a point, I'll agree; but the Ultramarines represent the concept of an 'Enlightened Despot' - to quote the wiki article on the subject:
In effect, the monarchs ruled with the intent of improving the lives of their subjects in order to strengthen or reinforce their authority. In the spirit of enlightened absolutism, Emperor Joseph II said, "Everything for the people, nothing by the people."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_absolutism
The Ultramarines rule is something of "∞" - Rule wisely and benevolently to safe guard humanity; safe guard humanity to rule wisely and benevolently.
Benevolence, in this case, being the standard state of human society on their worlds - the Ultramarines may be dictators, yes. But they arnt depicted as tyrants, and if their fluff is to be believed, the populations of their worlds genuinely love 'em.
@4M2A: I disagree
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Post by: Necroman
Just a comment on Ultramarines being impersonal and concerned with humanity as a whole rather than humans themselves: In Nightbringer, Uriel, an Ultramarines captain, balks at declaring Exterminatus on an inhabited planet, even if it helps the rest of humanity in the galaxy (So the Nightbringer escapes).
In Warriors of Ultramar, Uriel and the admiral of a Strike Cruiser, Tiberius, once again show extreme hatred of simply declaring exterminatus, even if it does help humanity in the long run. Uriel also gives a purity seal to one of the normal soldiers who saves him during the fight against the Tyranids, personally showing thanks.
Now, those are just two of the Ultramarines (One of whom would be shortly excommunicated for an unrelated lapse of rules), but it still definitely shows that some marines in the chapter are willing to defend individuals. Does that mean all Ultramarines are like that? No, but it does mean that the Chapter is not completely without a touch of respect for individuals in warfare.
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Post by: Lupe
I'll shift gear a bit, from discussing Ultramarines to the Space Wolves. Your point sees them as only caring about humans if they're proven worthy. I would rather disagree... For all their near-barbaric habits, and their quick tempers, the Wolves are probably most in touch with the rest of humanity... the countless billions who do not become Astartes.
It's because they go off to get drunk to celebrate their latest success, and because they hit on the barmaid, and they punch each other senseless every now and then. For them, life is not as different from that of a mortal.
They know full well what regular humans expect from life, and they understand how much harder a man will fight for it, rather than out of duty, because they're living it.
I'm only bringing this up because it provides an interesting contrast to the Ultramarines. Ultramarines genuinely don't mean their subjects any harm, and they will actually go out of their way to protect them and keep them comfortable. The difference is, the Ultramarines have other views on life compared to those they rule over. For them, every minute not spent fighting is another minute they devote to fulfilling their duty in other ways: as teachers, as governors, as scholars, whatever... In a way, the Ultramarines look down on their people... not in a demeaning or arrogant way, rather like a parent or a teacher. The Wolves... they're the big brother who uses his ID to buy beer or teaches you to throw a punch...
Neither of these is the right answer, simply cause there isn't any. What's important is they're actually the really good guys in a galaxy of bad and worse...
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Post by: nobody
Necroman wrote:Just a comment on Ultramarines being impersonal and concerned with humanity as a whole rather than humans themselves: In Nightbringer, Uriel, an Ultramarines captain, balks at declaring Exterminatus on an inhabited planet, even if it helps the rest of humanity in the galaxy (So the Nightbringer escapes).
In Warriors of Ultramar, Uriel and the admiral of a Strike Cruiser, Tiberius, once again show extreme hatred of simply declaring exterminatus, even if it does help humanity in the long run. Uriel also gives a purity seal to one of the normal soldiers who saves him during the fight against the Tyranids, personally showing thanks.
Now, those are just two of the Ultramarines (One of whom would be shortly excommunicated for an unrelated lapse of rules), but it still definitely shows that some marines in the chapter are willing to defend individuals. Does that mean all Ultramarines are like that? No, but it does mean that the Chapter is not completely without a touch of respect for individuals in warfare.
IIRC it's mentioned in one of the codices too, but in the Fire Warrior game and novel the Ultramarines are impressed with how the Tau fought Chaos and allow them to withdraw from the planet before declaring Exterminatus.
@Manchu Oh, I wasn't arguing that the Codex Astartes was bad, just pointing out the opposing viewpoint.
Though, I can think of a couple of major conflicts in the history of the Imperium where the turnout could have been interesting if, say Dante or Calgar, could have called upon the might of a full Legion of marines instead of a handful of chapters.
The battles for Macragge and Armageddon come to mind.
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Post by: Manchu
Well, a tyrant is someone who exercises authority illegitimately so I agree that the UM aren't tyrants. That doesn't mean, however, that they care about individuals. No, their perogative is the order of Ultramar--and ultimately of the Imperium at large. The SW don't have a sub-empire like the UM. This is not because they are incapable of carving one out but rather because they have no interest in being rulers. They are not the caretakers or protectors of Fenris. They are the sons of Fenris, wild and savage like their world. And they value the courage of "mortals" and acre for those who share their values of courage and honor. Humans who are cowardly or debased, however, must suffer the fate of all such cravens--5eath and damnation. For the UM, broadly speaking at least, it does not matter. Mortals are mortals: they all need to be ruled.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Lupe wrote:I'll shift gear a bit, from discussing Ultramarines to the Space Wolves. Your point sees them as only caring about humans if they're proven worthy. I would rather disagree... For all their near-barbaric habits, and their quick tempers, the Wolves are probably most in touch with the rest of humanity... the countless billions who do not become Astartes.
It's because they go off to get drunk to celebrate their latest success, and because they hit on the barmaid, and they punch each other senseless every now and then. For them, life is not as different from that of a mortal.
They know full well what regular humans expect from life, and they understand how much harder a man will fight for it, rather than out of duty, because they're living it.
I'm only bringing this up because it provides an interesting contrast to the Ultramarines. Ultramarines genuinely don't mean their subjects any harm, and they will actually go out of their way to protect them and keep them comfortable. The difference is, the Ultramarines have other views on life compared to those they rule over. For them, every minute not spent fighting is another minute they devote to fulfilling their duty in other ways: as teachers, as governors, as scholars, whatever... In a way, the Ultramarines look down on their people... not in a demeaning or arrogant way, rather like a parent or a teacher. The Wolves... they're the big brother who uses his ID to buy beer or teaches you to throw a punch...
Neither of these is the right answer, simply cause there isn't any. What's important is they're actually the really good guys in a galaxy of bad and worse...
Given the support the Ultras have amongst the worlds under their charge - and how much support they have from the Imperium at large- I think the goals of the Ultramarines and the common folk of the Imperium (continued and ever lasting supremacy of the Human race as a unified state, coupled with living conditions that allow you to actually enjoy life - particularly compared to what your average hive or forge world 'citizen' gets to live through) are largely the same. I mean, the Ultarmarines strive for perfection, mainly through the tenets of the codex astartes (and yet, have been shown to be able to change and adapt, as shown by the Tyranid wars) and its a perfection that's done to achieve what they were created to do: safe guard Humanity, by becoming the ultimate pinnacle of what is possible for a human to be - even if you have to 'enhance' a human via various surgeries and implants to do it. [As a note, I'm definitely one to view the Space Marines as still being fundamentally Human, in spite of everything that they've gone through to make them into Astartes.] I'd be willing to bet those PDF regiments on the Ultramarine governed planets probably would put any IG regiment from Cadia to Catachan, and from Mordia to Valhalla to shame.
I agree with the Ultramarines being something a parent or teacher - I mean, I think were the conversation has gone with pointing out that they are still essentially dictators (though rather enlightened and benevolent) so that is to be expected. Certainly it fits in with some of the character flaws Guilliman himself had of being a 'mini-emperor' in terms of a 'father knows best' attitude.
But I dont particularly view the wolves as being closer to humanity - in terms of gene seed they have the blessing/curse of being somewhat mutated; and certainly in the time of the heresy, they operated like a pack of wolves, ferocious and with out mercy - where the Ultramarines sought to make the best for humanity, the Luna Wolves sought to be the champions of humanity, the Thousand sons sought to make more out of humanity, The Blood Angels to embody what is good in humanity, The Iron Hands to 'build' a better version of humanity (in their own special way ), the Emperors Children to become the perfection of humanity (and the list can go out for all the Legions) the Space Wolves are the attack dogs of humanity. Which is incredibly noble - that is their purpose to be a noble embodiment of the wild and primitive nature of human, that part is isnt perhaps wholly human. And it's makes them some of the best Astartes.
But I'll personally take a pass on them if your trying to convince me they have my best interest at heart. I go to the bar, get drunk and hit on wenches too - but I'll pass on being the insular and xenophobic (and in this case, that term applies just as much to other groups of Humans and Astartes as it dose Aliens) tradition bound sons of Russ who know no mildness in their demeanor, existing in many ways with only an 'on' and 'off' switch. The Ultramarines may be dull and dour by comparison (though I'd be willing to bet just as many space bastards have been sired by the Ultras, and then some ) but I'd say they are significantly more likely to treat me like a worthwhile human being right off the bat, and should I prove myself worthy of higher honors they'd be more then willing to award them, and that a very good life can be earned under the stewardship of the Ultras - one that could indeed even have great ramifications beyond the Ultramarines realm.
The Spacewolves however arnt actively malicious, or anything close to that - its that they are insular, don't like change, don't particularly like strangers... and in other words are just as much wolf as man. The wolves function as being the ferocious attack dogs of the Human race is one that doesn't steer them purposefully to being 'closer' to Humanity; particularly compared to the Ultras, whom embody an ideal of Human society that -barring the whole no democracy; or at least no democratic bodies that have any authority over the Ultras- quite frankly, every one on the interwebz can identify with. (After all; you'll never have to worry about a corrupt government taking bribes of cash from corporations to do nasty things with the Ultras in charge. Bribery reeks of a good reason to break out the chain swords; and as all of Ultramar is geared first for providing for the Ultramarines, and making the realm of Ultramar self sufficient there arnt any particular ways I can think of bribing one.)
Space Wolves and Ultramarines arnt just different chapters, or approach things if different manners - they embody two different concepts; if the Ultramarines are view as the perfection of Space marine chapters, it cannot just be because of their record of martial prowess - because despite either being the equal or better of any other chapter, its the ideals the Ultramarines embody, and their connection to the rest of humanity as being the only real 'good [bolter and power sword armed] sheppards' that make them the greatest heroes of the Imperium.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu wrote:Well, a tyrant is someone who exercises authority illegitimately so I agree that the UM aren't tyrants. That doesn't mean, however, that they care about individuals. No, their perogative is the order of Ultramar--and ultimately of the Imperium at large. The SW don't have a sub-empire like the UM. This is not because they are incapable of carving one out but rather because they have no interest in being rulers. They are not the caretakers or protectors of Fenris. They are the sons of Fenris, wild and savage like their world. And they value the courage of "mortals" and acre for those who share their values of courage and honor. Humans who are cowardly or debased, however, must suffer the fate of all such cravens--5eath and damnation. For the UM, broadly speaking at least, it does not matter. Mortals are mortals: they all need to be ruled.
If the Guilliman and the Ultramarines truly had the ideal of 'Mortals are mortals: they all need to be ruled.' at heart, then I think 40k would largly be about rebel forces fighting to be free of the tyrannical Galactic Emperor Guilliman.
Rather, or at least its my argument that, the Ultramarines rule for the purpose of ensuring human supremacy - but a supremacy that dose not merely leave humanity as the sole dominant power in the galaxy, but allows us to enjoy the position of being on top to boot.
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Post by: 4M2A
I'm only bringing this up because it provides an interesting contrast to the Ultramarines. Ultramarines genuinely don't mean their subjects any harm, and they will actually go out of their way to protect them and keep them comfortable. The difference is, the Ultramarines have other views on life compared to those they rule over. For them, every minute not spent fighting is another minute they devote to fulfilling their duty in other ways: as teachers, as governors, as scholars, whatever... In a way, the Ultramarines look down on their people... not in a demeaning or arrogant way, rather like a parent or a teacher. The Wolves... they're the big brother who uses his ID to buy beer or teaches you to throw a punch...
Lol I like it's very accurate.
My personal belief is that UMs protect humans because they believe it's their duty while SWs do it because they genuinly care. They are easily the most human chapter and they think very similar to normal fenrisians. It's this ability to connect with humans that makes them so popular. They have fought hard to survive on fenris so they can apreciate what the average IG goes through and it's there individuality from the rest of the imperium that lets them see when the imperium is mistreating it's people.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
And yet beyond issuing formal complaints, curses and threats, they don't and cant do much of anything about it: at least the Ultramarines actually have crafted a small Empire where humanity can exist and live a life far better then a great deal of the rest of the world in the Imperium.
I just dont see any sustained evidence that the Wolves are what you say they are, beyond people wanting to believe that because they stuck up for a bunch of guys one time on Armageddon (which was indeed the right thing to do), and traditionally get drunk and brawl back on their Viking themed home world. I really dont see where the theme of the Space Wolves actually caring come from, unless those Humans already embody what the space wolves care about - which certainly isnt humanity as its own concept.
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Post by: Manchu
@Carl: You really need to read some BL books, my friend. You've really mischaracterized the Wolves--or maybe just bought into the Thousand Sons' viewpoint. Check out the SW story in Tales of Heresy and you will see how they really empathize with the mortals even when they can't be on the same side.
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Additionally, what could the UM have done at First Armageddon? We'll never know for sure. But at the very most, Calgar could not have accomplished more than the same furious but ultimately frustrated reaction as Grimnar. IMO, he might have even agreed with the Administratum. I wonder what happens to citizens of Ultramar unfortunate enough to stumble upon knowledge of Chaos . . .
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Will do - I have access to that book, and I'll make use of it!
If I stand correctled, I'll hardly moan about it
However, yes - I have pretty much sided with the Thousand Sons depiction of the Wolves because:
A) I largely see the deception (that to be, was implied ot have been ordered by Russ) to infiltrate the Thousand Sons trust with one of the wolves own psykers one of the main reasons that lead to the destruction of Imperial access to the web way, and the damnation of the Thousand Sons (how might the trial at Nikaea if Ohthere Wyrdmake had not condemned the Thousand Sons? Its possible the trial may have had the same conclusion, but certainly if it hadn't been for Russ and Mortarion instigating the trial, the issue wouldn't have come to that head - and if so, its not unreasonable to assume that the Imperium would have web way access, which we all know the benefits of. Even if Magnus would eventually have had to have been condemned for sorcery, Russ' and Mortarions' fear and distrust would cost everyone.)
B) However, a more concrete point I have that has dissuaded me from looking at the wolves with an eye other then appraising them strictly for what the're worth would be their actions against the sub-human Avenians on Heliosa in the Ark Reach cluster. Not content to merely commit genocide, the Wolves add insult to injury by destroying everything no one will know what potential information that would have been useful to the Imperium had lain in what was destroyed the Wolves - and no one will ever know just what precious technologies or insights the wolves have burned and crushed when unleashed against the enemies of Mankind. (or course, Lorgar is probably to blame for there being a war on Heliosa at all...)
Otherise, we'll never know of what the UM would have done on Armegeddon - but it is very realistic to say that the only two chapters that one could realistically expect to have made the same impact as the wolves would be either the Ultramarines, or the Blood Angels. (No matter how much I'd like to insert the Iron Snakes into that statement ) and if at least a few Ultramarines speak of anti-exterminatus sentiments perhaps its a common view among Ultramarines. or maybe even Astartes in general, since the Celestial lions got in trouble for that point of view, and I dont see the Salamanders as being Exterminatus friendly either. (Though I can see the Dark Angels bringing weenies and marshmallows to the roast)
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Post by: Manchu
What about my point regarding those citizens of Ultramar who stumble upon knowledge of Chaos? Let's not delude ourselves as to how that paradise is maintained. And regarding Heliosa, I think you may be bringing an IRL moral perspective into 40k--either that or you're a heretic, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, regarding Nikaea, a lot of people seem to assume that Russ or Mortarion or Horus or all or some of them tricked the Emperor concerning Magnus. Makes far more sense to me--although I admit that it's speculation--that the Emperor was convinced (and correctly, too) that Magnus was corrupt and directed the Wolves' actions at Nikaea through Russ. I've had a very heated exchange on these topics elsewhere. I'll provide the link later as I am currently on my cell.
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Post by: Retribution
I can't see the Smurfs as being a moral compass in 40k when they commit genocide as readily as any other force
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Post by: 4M2A
Carlovonsexron you should try to read the history part of the SW codex if you want more info on the way they treat others.
Another example of SW protecting individuals I found in the codex is Called the "Daemonbane war".
Space Wolf Codex Page 19
The radical Inquisitor Lord Querrian turns chaos against itself upon the daemon infested world of Yaogeddon. Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, themselves battling the daemonic hordes at Yaogeddon's molten core are astonished when the legions of Khorne and Slaanesh turn on each other to the exclusion of all else. The astonished Sven orders his men to hold off and when the dust settles Sven and Querrian join forces to mop up the reamainder of the daemonic horde with ease.
Days later the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus arive to execute Querrian for his heretical and unorthodox methods. Sven intervenes, bristling with indignation at what he percieves as a gorss injustice. The Ordo Malleus do not back down and war is declared under a full moon. Though the Space wolves eventually desist is is not until Sven's actions have bought Querrian enough time to escape.
If the UM had just been saved by Querrian I doubt they would try and save him. They are more likely to arrest him, hand him over then claim they captured the a dangerous chaos cultist.
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Post by: Klawz
4M2A wrote:Carlovonsexron you should try to read the history part of the SW codex if you want more info on the way they treat others.
Another example of SW protecting individuals I found in the codex is Called the "Daemonbane war".
Space Wolf Codex Page 19
The radical Inquisitor Lord Querrian turns chaos against itself upon the daemon infested world of Yaogeddon. Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, themselves battling the daemonic hordes at Yaogeddon's molten core are astonished when the legions of Khorne and Slaanesh turn on each other to the exclusion of all else. The astonished Sven orders his men to hold off and when the dust settles Sven and Querrian join forces to mop up the reamainder of the daemonic horde with ease.
Days later the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus arive to execute Querrian for his heretical and unorthodox methods. Sven intervenes, bristling with indignation at what he percieves as a gorss injustice. The Ordo Malleus do not back down and war is declared under a full moon. Though the Space wolves eventually desist is is not until Sven's actions have bought Querrian enough time to escape.
If the UM had just been saved by Querrian I doubt they would try and save him. They are more likely to arrest him, hand him over then claim they captured the a dangerous chaos cultist.
But why would you assume that? There is no proof. You are making your point with "I think they would..."
Well, you know what, I think that if the wolves were at the Battle for Macragge, the tyranids would have eaten them!
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Post by: Sageheart
i dont like the UM cuz there isn't that 3D to their character which the other chapters have. if they had that, even if it was slight i think i would like them a lot more. the good moral code they hold brings me to like them, but the lack of any 3D bothers me and turns me away from them.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Manchu wrote:What about my point regarding those citizens of Ultramar who stumble upon knowledge of Chaos? Let's not delude ourselves as to how that paradise is maintained. And regarding Heliosa, I think you may be bringing an IRL moral perspective into 40k--either that or you're a heretic, lol.
In so far as the Citizens of Ultramar who discover chaos, its hard to say - probably interrogation, and then either execution or solitary institutionalization; but considering that in the 40k universe... chaos really is unequivocally bad, do any other options even exist?
Also, regarding Nikaea, a lot of people seem to assume that Russ or Mortarion or Horus or all or some of them tricked the Emperor concerning Magnus. Makes far more sense to me--although I admit that it's speculation--that the Emperor was convinced (and correctly, too) that Magnus was corrupt and directed the Wolves' actions at Nikaea through Russ. I've had a very heated exchange on these topics elsewhere. I'll provide the link later as I am currently on my cell.
They way I read the book, it seemed like the Emperor wasn't so much tricked into anything regarding his decision at Niaea, rather he was forced to deal with an issue he had by and large been willing to either ignore or overlook due to his own relationship with the warp, and his relationship with Magnus. The Astartes were coming into contact with Chaos and Warp Powers at the far flung borders of the still expanding Imperium, and the Emperor was now forced to deal with how the Astartes were going to deal with it - since Mortarion and Russ obviously feared and mistrusted the warp. (though the latter was perfectly willing to use is if you just dressed it up as being 'traditional Fenrisian activity' which smacks of hypocrisy, or extreme xenophobia.)
The bigger question is, with both Mortarion and Russ condemning Magnus, what would have happened after Nikaea if the Emperor had ruled in favor of Magnus?
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Post by: Omegus
Manchu wrote:But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus.
Huron?
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Post by: metallifan
Omegus wrote:Manchu wrote:But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus.
Huron?
Leads a Renegade Chapter/Raider Warhost.
Not quite anything near half of the original Legions turning to Chaos.
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Post by: Manchu
Carlovonsexron wrote:In so far as the Citizens of Ultramar who discover chaos, its hard to say - probably interrogation, and then either execution or solitary institutionalization; but considering that in the 40k universe... chaos really is unequivocally bad, do any other options even exist?
That is indeed the question. And I think the implied answer of "no" adequately summarizes Calgar's hypothetical response to Grimnar's quandary at First Armageddon. Klawz points out above that there is no proof. That's true. But there is logic, which you have demonstrated admirably.
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Post by: 4M2A
Another interesting situation is when the SW are defending a world from a tyranid invasion. After the tyranid attack reaches it's peak the Imperial Command gives the order to avacuate and leave the civilians of Thessiax to die, and then attack the nids in space. The SW leading the attack disagrees but can't leave the battle so sends 2 squads of Grey Hunters to defend the Space port while everyone else leaves.
The grey hunters defend the port for a few days, and as the tyranids get closer train the humans to defend the port the best they can. The Sw and humans manage to hold of the attack until the humans have escaped, but most of the SWs die protecting the humans. when the last 6 SW escape they are punished by the imperial command and command orders them to be stripped of their honours. Instead the SW commander promotes them to his personal wolfguard.
Here the SWs disobeyed imperial command and gave up there own lives to save a small number of humans.
Although there is no proof from the parts of their character we see I doubt that UM would disobey imperial command and I am certain they wouldn't die for them.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Manchu wrote:Carlovonsexron wrote:In so far as the Citizens of Ultramar who discover chaos, its hard to say - probably interrogation, and then either execution or solitary institutionalization; but considering that in the 40k universe... chaos really is unequivocally bad, do any other options even exist?
That is indeed the question. And I think the implied answer of "no" adequately summarizes Calgar's hypothetical response to Grimnar's quandary at First Armageddon. Klawz points out above that there is no proof. That's true. But there is logic, which you have demonstrated admirably.
No so fast, I think- that same logic applies to the Space Wolves as well, in fact even more so, given their long standing distrust of sorcery, and longstanding hatred of Chaos. If the Space Wolves can manage to have surmounted these biases to stick up for potentially tainted soldiery, you certainly cant assume that the generally more level headed Ultramarines do not have the same chance.
But as someone mentioned earlier 'The Ultramarines will never have to face that type of moral dilemma' for simple virtue of fluff writing. And if they did, can you really see the fluff as being written in any other way then the Ultramarines again being the good guy saviors?
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Post by: Manchu
Actually, it's the Wolves who wouldn't have to face such a choice--given that they don't try and manage their own mini-Imperium. The UMs put themselves into just such a situation. That's why Grimnar could afford to be mad--while Marneus Calgar would most likely have gone right along with the Administratum. You can say it reflects poorly on the UM, I guess. But this thread is called "Defending the Ultramarines" and I say this kind of thing gives them character. They can and do make tough decisions. In fact, their Primarch made one of the toughest decisions in all of the fluff--imposing the Codex Astartes at the risk of civil war when the Imeprium was at its weakest. It was a gamble, sure, and people criticize Guilliman as arrogant for this reason. But, as I've always said, the Codex has kept the SM in check by and large. The SW might never go along with enslaving the brave souls who had the gumption to fight off the traitor and the daemon but they also could never pull together something like the Codex. For the same reason, really: they just don't have the UM discipline.
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Post by: Omegus
4M2A wrote:Here the SWs disobeyed imperial command and gave up there own lives to save a small number of humans.
Although there is no proof from the parts of their character we see I doubt that UM would disobey imperial command and I am certain they wouldn't die for them.
I would agree with this assessment. Not to inject D&D into the discussion, but SW would be chaotic good, while Ultras would be lawful good. Both have what's best for the hummies in mind, but the Ultras are more likely to be constrained by their rigid adherence to the rule of law and respect for chains of authority. I can very much picture the average Ultramarine as the uptight Paladin who arrests the roguish/Robin Hood-esque characters for criminal activity even though their actions are by and large benevolent.
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Post by: 4M2A
Omegus thats exactly my problem with UM . SW will always do what they see as the morally right thing regards less of the rules, whereas UM do what is lawfully right regardless of the morals.
In my opinion thats what makes them boring and predictable.
Being seen as the perfect marines even when they are more interested in the rules than doing the right thing just makes me more anoyed by them. This treatment makes them appear very arrogant when the disagree with other chapters for doing what has to be done in the circumstance. I would much prefer SW were the example of perfect marines as thats my opinion of them.
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Post by: Omegus
Space Wolves are mutants and heretics.
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Post by: 4M2A
What? no more than BA, and salamanders.
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Post by: Manchu
4M2A wrote:What? no more than BA, and salamanders.
Well, probably a bit more than Sallies. I'm right there with you on the BAs, however.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Manchu wrote:Actually, it's the Wolves who wouldn't have to face such a choice--given that they don't try and manage their own mini-Imperium. The UMs put themselves into just such a situation. That's why Grimnar could afford to be mad--while Marneus Calgar would most likely have gone right along with the Administratum. You can say it reflects poorly on the UM, I guess. But this thread is called "Defending the Ultramarines" and I say this kind of thing gives them character. They can and do make tough decisions. In fact, their Primarch made one of the toughest decisions in all of the fluff--imposing the Codex Astartes at the risk of civil war when the Imeprium was at its weakest. It was a gamble, sure, and people criticize Guilliman as arrogant for this reason. But, as I've always said, the Codex has kept the SM in check by and large. The SW might never go along with enslaving the brave souls who had the gumption to fight off the traitor and the daemon but they also could never pull together something like the Codex. For the same reason, really: they just don't have the UM discipline.
Perhaps - In this regard I will admit that your reasoning is quite good, but since the chapter tolerates amongst its members individual who disagree with exterminatus, you cannot take your argument as a solid conclusion by any means.
I suspect the Ultramarine book (I read around here on Dakka some where it is to be a trilogy) dealing with the Horus Heresy will shed some light for everyone on just what the true 'guiding light' of the Ultramarines is, and to what extent they follow that.
However, I'm still not totally convinced that in their reckless abandon, the Space Wolves can be considered 'good' - perhaps better then the average chapter (but not unique) in terms of how they might treat the average human - but I remain very unconvinced about the merits of how well the Wolves will treat an average human as compared to the Ultras.
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Post by: Manchu
Ha, I think you're more worred about how the SW treat a legion of arrogant, super-human psykers rather than the average human.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Not so much the treatment of the Thousand sons was worrying, in so much as the fact that they leave no knowledge in their wake. They destroy everything - which for an Imperium for whoms' basis of technology is from rediscovering STC tech, would be a cardinal sin of the greatest proportions - if chaos wasnt there to more clearly define the term
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Post by: Manchu
I doubt the Iron Priests would allow such sacrilege . . . except he would talk of it as a matter of weal and woe.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Then there was much sacrilege on the world Heliosa; much of the Thousand Sons book can be expected to paint the T-Son in a sympathetic light, and the Wolves in an unfavorable one... but library burning is library burning, and thats just what the Wolves did.
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Post by: Manchu
Helios nothing. If you want to talk about library burning, let's not skirt Prospero itself. But burning libraries can be (and often is) "good" in the Grimdark.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
I can actually 'accept' Prospero based on the fact that Horus changed the Emperors order to bring Magnus is into killing him outright - that kind of order, against a primarch and a legion- couldn't result in anything but the destruction of a world, as much of a shame as that is.
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Post by: 4M2A
I haven't read the Horus Heresy but if Russ believed that Magnus and the thousand sons had been corrupted to the extent the Emporer order for them to be destroyed then burning all their books would have been seen as removing the taint. Leaving libraries of chaos knowledge isn't smart.
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Post by: nobody
I just finished reading the "Legends of the Space Marines" compilation, and came across the story of Uriel's trial (the story even has a preface stating that it takes place before Dead Sky Black Sun).
Needless to say, it does not paint Sicarius or even Calgar in a favorable light.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
4M2A wrote:I haven't read the Horus Heresy but if Russ believed that Magnus and the thousand sons had been corrupted to the extent the Emporer order for them to be destroyed then burning all their books would have been seen as removing the taint. Leaving libraries of chaos knowledge isn't smart.
the Emperor DIDNT order the Thousands son to be destroyed; he ordered Russ to Bring Magnus in for the Emperor to deal with himself - it was Horus, who had been corrupted by Chaos at that point who changed the orders into getting Russ to kill Magnus (which would result in Magnus falling to Chaos)
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Post by: 4M2A
Yeah I know that I am saying from Russ' point of view the emperor said kill Magnus which means he did something pretty bad. Considering Russ already had the ideas that psyker = chaos it is very possible he thought he was destroying tainted materials.
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
That true; but again, my big issue isnt with the fall of Prospoero, its event before the fall that that showed the Wolves as not caring about what they destroyed, just the action of destroying.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
In the middle of Battle for the Abyss and it makes SWs look like jerks. These guys are just impossible to work with fro other Space Marines. They try to turn everything into a bar room brawl.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Whose perspective is the book written from Kami?
Would I be correct in thinking that that would affect the impression portrayed in the book?
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
A third person....a Narrator.
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Post by: Eldarranger
I am not overly fond of the boys in blue but i won't just add a comment that is the equivalent of "smurfs suck". I think the reason they get so much flack is that they receive so much attention when some of the other founding legions receive the table scraps from GW. you could rename the 5th edition codex for marines, "ultramarines and friends" and not have to change a thing. I know that they are GW's poster boys but its getting a bit ridiculous. Lets go through the list shall we?
Special characters:
the vast majority are smurfs. they have: One of the galaxies best psykers: Tigurius, who can use every single power in the book and still mind fight the hive mind itself.
Calgar: is disgusting fluff wise, he can kill the living embodiment of a war god who bleeds lava in one on one combat
Cato sicaruis:is all ready mentioned in previous posts so ill ignore him
Sergent Telion and Chronus: because the ultras were clearly in desperate need of more characters, how else would we know that the ultras were masters of stealth and tank warfare now? sure the iron hand are probably better at mech warfare and haven't gotten any attention or a single model besides a tac squad, or that the raven guard are probably more sneaky the the blues.
and if I recall correctly, vulkcan didn't even have a model when he came out.
so if you played sallies or iron hands or raven guard wouldn't you be a little honked off that every new model GW makes only makes the smurfs even more awesome and read page after page of the smurfs winning every single battle they fight?
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Post by: purplefood
Carlovonsexron wrote:Not so much the treatment of the Thousand sons was worrying, in so much as the fact that they leave no knowledge in their wake. They destroy everything - which for an Imperium for whoms' basis of technology is from rediscovering STC tech, would be a cardinal sin of the greatest proportions - if chaos wasnt there to more clearly define the term
Be fair the SW aren't stupid and they could probably recognise an STC if they found one
But if the knowledge is considered heretical it's better to be safe than sorry, the fact that the SW like to blow up/burn stuff does bias them slightly but if it's important knowledge there is probably an inquisitor around looking for it.
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Post by: Bjorn_Stormwolf02
Klawz wrote:4M2A wrote:Carlovonsexron you should try to read the history part of the SW codex if you want more info on the way they treat others.
Another example of SW protecting individuals I found in the codex is Called the "Daemonbane war".
Space Wolf Codex Page 19
The radical Inquisitor Lord Querrian turns chaos against itself upon the daemon infested world of Yaogeddon. Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, themselves battling the daemonic hordes at Yaogeddon's molten core are astonished when the legions of Khorne and Slaanesh turn on each other to the exclusion of all else. The astonished Sven orders his men to hold off and when the dust settles Sven and Querrian join forces to mop up the reamainder of the daemonic horde with ease.
Days later the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus arive to execute Querrian for his heretical and unorthodox methods. Sven intervenes, bristling with indignation at what he percieves as a gorss injustice. The Ordo Malleus do not back down and war is declared under a full moon. Though the Space wolves eventually desist is is not until Sven's actions have bought Querrian enough time to escape.
If the UM had just been saved by Querrian I doubt they would try and save him. They are more likely to arrest him, hand him over then claim they captured the a dangerous chaos cultist.
But why would you assume that? There is no proof. You are making your point with "I think they would..."
Well, you know what, I think that if the wolves were at the Battle for Macragge, the tyranids would have eaten them!
Because operating outside the rules and bounds of the codex is unthinkable to the ultramarines, regardless of how noble the act or cause. Thinking outside the box is difficult to the point of comical for the ultramarines. They would have handed Querrian over to the inquisition because:
a) its what the codex would suggest they do
b) by breaking from the static tradition and using radical methods to stop the demons, Querrian has now become a heretic in the eyes of the imperium and we all know the ultramarines have no compassion for heretics of any sort.
On the subject of the SW, I think the idea that they are little more than rabid wolves of humanity and they do not value human life is a rather ignorant and misinformed opinion and anyone who has read any background on the space wolves (and their codex in particular) would know this is not the case. The space wolves are the OPPOSITE of insular, they are much more personable and friendly to the rest of humanity and are beloved of the common people. The ultramarines on the other hand exemplify insular and aloof. They do not see humans as friends and equals, they see them as charges in need of direction and leadership.
As other have pointed out, the space wolves are the ones who stick up for the rights of humans. When the bravery of armageddons citizens were rewarded with slavery and death and all reccord of their struggle was purged, the SW were ready to attack imperial forces to avenge them. When the flesh tearers began an orgy of indescriminate killing and bloodshed on the citizens of Lucid Prime in order to 'purge all who have been tainted by chaos' the SW do not hesitate to attack the flesh tearers in order to defend them.
Would the ultramarines have done the same? I doubt it, their views on the matter would probably have been the same as the inquisition's: the citizens of armageddon and lucid prime both had been exposed to chaos and must be dealt with. The ultramarines would have stood by, no doubt believing that what was being done was for the good of humaity. They would never oppose the inquisition or the lords of terra. They are dogmatic and rigid to a fault. While the space wolves will do what they believe is right and fair in their hearts, the ultramarines will do whatever the codex would tell them in that situation. I summary, the Ultramarines are limited both tactically and morally by the codex astarates.
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Post by: Lupe
Being a SW fan, I still wouldn't go so far as to call the Ultramarines rigid and limited, but I would agree that their first instincts would turn towards the letter of the law.
However, I think they're just as prepared to turn a blind eye to Imperial laws being unfair. They're not going to overtly oppose the Imperium, though.
For instance, the Querrian affair. I'd rather think the Ultramarines would stall the Inquisition peacefully, in the purest bureaucratic style, rather than start a brawl.
Doing the right thing doesn't always require a dramatic gesture. The understated approach would fit the Ultramarines better, and I'm quite confident they'd be one of the few chapters who can and do sometimes disagree with the High Lords.
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Post by: Bjorn_Stormwolf02
During the war with hive behemoth on the ultramarines were shocked that their traditional codex astarates tactics were ineffective against the tyranids and calgar had to meditate for a week without food or drink to finally realize their problem...they needed to adapt and *gasp* develop new strategies not covered in the codex. This is something that should have been clear right away to any competent commander and to his credit calgar did admit their pride had blinded them and perhaps the codex did not include all the answers. Still, it took 10, 000 years a crushing defeat against the tyranids for the ultramarines to realize that in order for them to survive they would have to adapt and move outside the shackles of tradition they had placed themselves in. If that wasn't limiting themselves I don't know what is.
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Post by: Lupe
I'm just saying... defensive tactics against an outnumbering invader are probably found somewhere within the Codex.
The proper procedure to dealing with an Inquisitor who helped you out but the Inqusition thinks is a traitor probably doesn't get mentioned... Must of skipped Guilliman's mind...
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Hey Lupe just noticed your sig.
Surely SM's lightbulbs have a bayonet fitting?
Anyhoo swiftly back to the matter in hand.
Surely a codex can't legislate for everything?
Even if one ignores new problems arising over time, the complexities of battle in a vast and hostile universe makes for a rigid adherence to a prescribed code futile?
Or have I missed something as per?
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Post by: Karvick
If you want a chapter that gives it's all for Humanity then read Helsreach and dare to tell me that there is chapter that does it better than the Black Templars. They fight to save Human lives even when there is no hope of survival.
They where the Chapter that won the 3rd war of Armageddon. I've yet to find a war where the Ultrasmurfs have given as much. Even if you read the fluff in the 40K rule book time line. It's the BA or the DA or the Templars that are mentioned or some other chapter far far removed from the Ultras.
I don't hate them but I won't accept that they are the best just cause GW say so or because their fanboys shout the loudest. The Ultramarines are simiple just not that great.
I don't see Calgar threating an Emperor class Titans pilot that he will blow the Titan's head off while he's still in it!!! if the damn thing won't fight for him.
Grimaldus FTW!
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Post by: Bjorn_Stormwolf02
Lupe wrote:I'm just saying... defensive tactics against an outnumbering invader are probably found somewhere within the Codex.
The proper procedure to dealing with an Inquisitor who helped you out but the Inqusition thinks is a traitor probably doesn't get mentioned... Must of skipped Guilliman's mind...
perhaps not, but it probably does mention something about loyalty to the imperium and its leaders. Refusing to hand over a rouge inquisitor would probably be labeled as heresy or treason in the ultramarines chapter. As far as I know, the space wolves are the only chapter to make a habit of routinely defying the imperiums authority for various moral and ethical reasons. Other instances with other chapters may occur but they are probably few and far between. Defying imperial authority for moral qualms does not seem to be a trait of the ultramarines.
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Post by: baronspikey
Karvick wrote:If you want a chapter that gives it's all for Humanity then read Helsreach and dare to tell me that there is chapter that does it better than the Black Templars. They fight to save Human lives even when there is no hope of survival.
They where the Chapter that won the 3rd war of Armageddon. I've yet to find a war where the Ultrasmurfs have given as much. Even if you read the fluff in the 40K rule book time line. It's the BA or the DA or the Templars that are mentioned or some other chapter far far removed from the Ultras.
I don't hate them but I won't accept that they are the best just cause GW say so or because their fanboys shout the loudest. The Ultramarines are simiple just not that great.
I don't see Calgar threating an Emperor class Titans pilot that he will blow the Titan's head off while he's still in it!!! if the damn thing won't fight for him.
Grimaldus FTW!
The 3rd War for Armageddon hasn't been won, it's a grinding stalemate.
The Ultramarines alongside the Blood Angels and Salamanders were the only Chapters who fought in the 2nd War for Armageddon, and of the loyalist Legions in the Heresy and Scouring only 2 others gave more than the Ultramarines to save the Imperium, the Salamanders and Raven Guard, but even so all 3 Legions lost over 90% of their man power fighting against the rebellion.
Really Codex: Space Marines has simply gone back to it's 2nd Edition roots by making the archetypal Codex Chapter the main focus of the Codex, at least in 5th Edition it's called Codex: Space Marines rather than Codex: Ultramarines
Note: The Codex doesn't just contain the view points and teaching of Guilliman, he included the methods of scores of military commanders, even the Traitor Primarchs teachings were included (specifically Perturabo's views on siegecraft) and the only thing Guilliman enforced in regards to his Codex was the break up of the Legions- for which he was supported whole heartedly by Corax of the Raven Guard and Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Not sure how you can say only 2 legions gave more than the Ultramarines during the Heresy. Of all the legions Ultramarines probably had the least Causalties.
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Post by: baronspikey
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not sure how you can say only 2 legions gave more than the Ultramarines during the Heresy. Of all the legions Ultramarines probably had the least Causalties.
During the actual Heresy they did lose the least amount of men, percentage wise anyway, but during the Scouring (which lasted significantly longer than the Heresy) they lost roughly 90% of the Legion holding the Imperium together, whilst the Imperial Fists swanned around on their vengeance crusade completely abandoning humanity.
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Post by: Thor665
Where are you getting the info on the Great Scouring for Ultramarine losses? Most of the other chapters were torn up in the Heresy and/or the battles afterward (certainly between the Terra siege and their crusade to beat back the traitor legions the Fists took substantial casualties).
I'm not familiar with numbers of how badly torn up the Ultras became in the wake of the Heresy - any source book/link you can point me to?
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Post by: baronspikey
Thor665 wrote:Where are you getting the info on the Great Scouring for Ultramarine losses? Most of the other chapters were torn up in the Heresy and/or the battles afterward (certainly between the Terra siege and their crusade to beat back the traitor legions the Fists took substantial casualties).
I'm not familiar with numbers of how badly torn up the Ultras became in the wake of the Heresy - any source book/link you can point me to?
The Ultramarines Legion was 250,000 strong at it's peak (ref. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions) and whilst some authors have scaled down the Legion sizes others have stayed true to GW's original idea, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden being the first that come to mind, by the end of the Scouring the Ultramarines were down to ~24,000 Marines (re. Codex: Space Marines, the UM founded 23 second founding Chapters) now that's obviously a steep drop in numbers at aabout 90.4% of the Legion destroyed.
Of course some people believe the Ultramarines were at max only 100,000 strong, but even so by the end of the Scouring that would still have left the Ultramarines at only 24% of their original strength.
I can even give you the exact percentage of the Raven Guard Legion that was destroyed during the Drop Site Massacre- 99.625%, out of 80,000 RG Astartes only 300 escaped (ref. Raven's Flight), and by the end of the Scouring the Legion had managed to get back to ~5% of their pre-Heresy numbers (this was of course aftre Corax executed all the abominations he created, I have no idea how their numbers would have affected the percentage)
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Post by: Alpharius
I think that there were more than 300 RG left after the Massacre though, as weren't some 8K or so stationed around Deliverance?
Additionally, the HH Collected Visions is a rather... meh book to begin with, and somewhat lame in terms of background.
I prefer the much better written and researched INDEX ASTARTES articles myself, though they don't cover everything...
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Post by: baronspikey
Alpharius wrote:I think that there were more than 300 RG left after the Massacre though, as weren't some 8K or so stationed around Deliverance?
Additionally, the HH Collected Visions is a rather... meh book to begin with, and somewhat lame in terms of background.
I prefer the much better written and researched INDEX ASTARTES articles myself, though they don't cover everything...
Whilst I don't really agree on your opinion regarding Collected Visions I do with Index Astartes- superb source material, but none of it disputes the HH: CV stuff (and of course the HH: CV was partially written and overseen by one of the fathers of 40k- Alan Merret). In fact it's the IA stuff that provided me with the necessary info to conclude the Scouring could have lasted up to a century (so between the Siege of Terra and the breakup of the Legion a century might have passed).
Raven Guard- I'm not sure how many were left at Deliverance, even if 8,000 were left that would still place the RG at having lost 90% of the Legion rather than 99%.
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Post by: Thor665
baronspikey wrote:The Ultramarines Legion was 250,000 strong at it's peak (ref. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions) and whilst some authors have scaled down the Legion sizes others have stayed true to GW's original idea, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden being the first that come to mind, by the end of the Scouring the Ultramarines were down to ~24,000 Marines (re. Codex: Space Marines, the UM founded 23 second founding Chapters) now that's obviously a steep drop in numbers at aabout 90.4% of the Legion destroyed.
But wasn't it also specifically noted that they were the largest chapter at the time and that's why they were able to create so many second founding chapters? Do we know the size of other Pre-Heresy Legions as compared to Ultramarines? I only recall them being called the biggest after the Heresy, but not before or during which would tend to suggest that their casualties were less then other Legions.
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Post by: Lupe
We have the 250.000 figure explicitly stated in the Collected visions, true. But it seems that there are several indirect mentions that the Ultramarines were by far the largest legion, and only the Word Bearers came a distant second.
One example comes to mind: Horus Rising
Torgaddon is trying to resolve a dispute between Sigismund and Loken, and says something to this extent.
"The wolves of Fenris are the greatest legion, but they're all clinically insane. Of the sane legions, probably the Ultramarines, but there's so damn many of them"
That puts them at about 90% losses, like the rest of the Legions. Only that 90% means a lot more if the legion is by far the largest.
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Post by: Alpharius
Alan Merret is someone I remain very unimpressed with.
Some of his recent additions are downright silly.
And he royally screwed up the whole psyker/sorcerer thing via the 'revised' Council of Nikaea.
The old background basically had it as (from the old Index Astartes article on the Thousand Sons):
"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.
The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.
But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.
The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.
The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."
Compare this to the new version, which makes... no sense.
In fact, they ALMOST 'fixed' it in the recent "THOUSAND SONS" book, but then chickened out and went Merret with it.
I think the new background now has it that the Council of Nikaea banned entirely the use of Librarians/Psykers...?
Makes no sense at all, and I am VERY interested to see how they're going to find a way out of this mess.
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