I think the ultramarines represent humanity at its best. What we should be. But at the same time they kill all aliens and mutants withought a question so i see it as a deluded sense of what is "good" They may be good be 41st millennium standards but if they were around today people would think of them as Nazis or racists (i guess that’s the same thing) That’s just my view.

GW said that it was Sisters that represent the best of humanity (the exact quote is "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"). But then, Ultramarines aren't human anyway, so the best they can do is represent the ideal Space Marine (which one can argue they do, though I don't necessarily agree-- personally if we're going with codex chapters I'd say Salamanders are preferable).

baronspikey wrote:

Thor665 wrote:Where are you getting the info on the Great Scouring for Ultramarine losses? Most of the other chapters were torn up in the Heresy and/or the battles afterward (certainly between the Terra siege and their crusade to beat back the traitor legions the Fists took substantial casualties).

I'm not familiar with numbers of how badly torn up the Ultras became in the wake of the Heresy - any source book/link you can point me to?

The Ultramarines Legion was 250,000 strong at it's peak (ref. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions) and whilst some authors have scaled down the Legion sizes others have stayed true to GW's original idea, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden being the first that come to mind, by the end of the Scouring the Ultramarines were down to ~24,000 Marines (re. Codex: Space Marines, the UM founded 23 second founding Chapters) now that's obviously a steep drop in numbers at aabout 90.4% of the Legion destroyed.

Of course some people believe the Ultramarines were at max only 100,000 strong, but even so by the end of the Scouring that would still have left the Ultramarines at only 24% of their original strength.

I can even give you the exact percentage of the Raven Guard Legion that was destroyed during the Drop Site Massacre- 99.625%, out of 80,000 RG Astartes only 300 escaped (ref. Raven's Flight), and by the end of the Scouring the Legion had managed to get back to ~5% of their pre-Heresy numbers (this was of course aftre Corax executed all the abominations he created, I have no idea how their numbers would have affected the percentage)

What's strange is that sometime after The Heresy there must have been a massive increase in Astartes numbers. Let's say The Ultramarines got reduced to 24,000 after The Scouring. But look at them now: There's about 600,000 Space Marines that can point to Guilliman as their Primarch. This just seems out of whack with The grim darkness of the 41st millinium where everything continually gets worse.

If there's one thing you CAN count on in the 40K galaxy it is that clerical errors and decimal points being moved all over the place are a certainty!

Alpharius wrote:If there's one thing you CAN count on in the 40K galaxy it is that clerical errors and decimal points being moved all over the place are a certainty!

Indeed, espicially regarding Astartes. They Usually don't file they administratum reports on time.

Personally, I believe that at the time of The Horus Heresy there was 600,000 Ultramarines (which was by far the largest). During the Heresy all the other Legions took horrendous losses, some going down to 3,000 or even less. So when Guilliman issued his Codex Astartes decree that a chapter can only be 1,000 strong all the other primarches hated but then found it hard to gripe to much when he lead by example and split his Legion into 600,000 chapters or so erroding his commmand by 99%.

No proof btw just my personal theory that there was about as many Loyalist Space Marines in the 31st millineum as the 41st.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

baronspikey wrote:

Thor665 wrote:Where are you getting the info on the Great Scouring for Ultramarine losses? Most of the other chapters were torn up in the Heresy and/or the battles afterward (certainly between the Terra siege and their crusade to beat back the traitor legions the Fists took substantial casualties).

I'm not familiar with numbers of how badly torn up the Ultras became in the wake of the Heresy - any source book/link you can point me to?

The Ultramarines Legion was 250,000 strong at it's peak (ref. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions) and whilst some authors have scaled down the Legion sizes others have stayed true to GW's original idea, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden being the first that come to mind, by the end of the Scouring the Ultramarines were down to ~24,000 Marines (re. Codex: Space Marines, the UM founded 23 second founding Chapters) now that's obviously a steep drop in numbers at aabout 90.4% of the Legion destroyed.

Of course some people believe the Ultramarines were at max only 100,000 strong, but even so by the end of the Scouring that would still have left the Ultramarines at only 24% of their original strength.

I can even give you the exact percentage of the Raven Guard Legion that was destroyed during the Drop Site Massacre- 99.625%, out of 80,000 RG Astartes only 300 escaped (ref. Raven's Flight), and by the end of the Scouring the Legion had managed to get back to ~5% of their pre-Heresy numbers (this was of course aftre Corax executed all the abominations he created, I have no idea how their numbers would have affected the percentage)

What's strange is that sometime after The Heresy there must have been a massive increase in Astartes numbers. Let's say The Ultramarines got reduced to 24,000 after The Scouring. But look at them now: There's about 600,000 Space Marines that can point to Guilliman as their Primarch. This just seems out of whack with The grim darkness of the 41st millinium where everything continually gets worse.

IMO, collected visions is a tome full of crap when it comes to reliable data.
250000 UM ?
Most Legions never had any company higher than 30-40 mentioned anywhere and even if we assume 1000 marines per company there is
no way to get to 100.000.
What we have is a chart to be found in every power-armored codex, without any changes over the last 3 editions, which points to
23-24.000 UM but also to 3.000 RG at second founding.
We also have the codex SM, where the UM had to reduce their recrutement rate.
Its possible to assume that SM won't decrease in numbers in 10 millenia, but increase.
Campaigns ( like this EoT codex) easily throw a 175 companys into a theathre of war ( 17.500 marines ).
GW's own charts and pics show more than 1000 marines when they show us the UM chapter.
So 600.000 'sons of roboute' aren't impossible.
-the UM had more marines, because they were better organized and thus could keep up a recrutement rate others only may dream of.
-the official source only mentiones the known successors. Maybe more than 23 exist?
-there isn't much about the maximum chapters that can be founded per year. Its just said to be rarely done.
To do VS beeing able to do. Terra still got the complete set of geneseeds. Without information how many chapters the AD biologis
could 'grow' at once, maybe its always enough to replace losses?

LunaHound wrote:
I hate space marines . The only reason i even look at them is from a hobby perspective , i like some of their miniatures.
Fluff wise, i hate every single one of them including the whole Emperium

<3

1hadhq wrote:
IMO, collected visions is a tome full of crap when it comes to reliable data.

It certainly is!

Fuegan wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I hate space marines . The only reason i even look at them is from a hobby perspective , i like some of their miniatures.
Fluff wise, i hate every single one of them including the whole Emperium

<3

Not sure what that means, Fuegan, but if it is something along the lines of "Ugh." or or "Great. Thanks for sharing. In a SPACE MARINE thread.", I'm in complete agreement.

Alpharius wrote:Not sure what that means, Fuegan, but if it is something along the lines of "Ugh." or or "Great. Thanks for sharing. In a SPACE MARINE thread.", I'm in complete agreement.

<3

Geeze, for how many damn books there are you'd think they'd be consistent about the number of Marines in the Heresy.


Because as we know, nobody should ever DARE say anything about the beloved Space Marines in a thread supposedly about defending Space Marines (edit: in the sense of "codex marines", IE those who follow the ultrasmurf doctrines as opposed to the divergent ones), aside from glowing reviews, nerdgasms, and love letters (see Matt Ward as an example).

Well it's hardly like Collected Visions is the only source that suggests large numbers Marines in each Legion, but then again most of the HH books have derived the majority of their info from Collected Visions- The First Heretic says that there are at least 100,000 Astartes in the Word Bearers Legion, the second biggest Legion after the Ultramarines.

Regarding UM successor Chapters- there were 23, of which only 19 are named.

Thinking about it the number of loyalist Marines has gone from roughly 500,000+ to 1 million...but that has taken 10,000 years, which is obviously a long time but seems even longer when you realise that those initial half a million Astartes were raised in 200 years.

A Legion that prides itself on organisation with 8 civilised planets providing recruits certainly helps to produce a vast amount of marines at a crazy rate, hell if the Chapter wanted it could probably double it's numbers quite easily within a century or less...

wow. Manchu has 5000 posts now...I loled.

Oh yeah, that's another thing. One of the main reasons for The Heresy was that the marines of yesteryear weren't actually very good in comparison with more "modern" ones. By that I mean they were of lower morale fibre and character on average. The reason for this was that Astartes creation turnaround time was supposed to be at its quickest ever Pre-Heresy. They simply didn't screen these guys very well for potential Emperor-Betraying traits; they let everyone and anyone in. Quantity over quality. Nowadays quality is much more stressed. So with Astartes creation time at an all time high post-heresy it just doesn't make sense for there to have been a sudden explosion in the Space Marine population. I guess that's another reason why I believe there must have been much more than a million loyal Astartes after The Battle of Terra (especially considering The Space Marines took even more collosal causalties in the so-called "Scouring')

Even with such stringent controls on Astartes selection it's still been 10,000 years for their numbers to increase once more- you believe all 1,000 chapters were created in the break up of the Legions, I see no evidence to suggest that what so ever.

baronspikey wrote:Even with such stringent controls on Astartes selection it's still been 10,000 years for their numbers to increase once more- you believe all 1,000 chapters were created in the break up of the Legions, I see no evidence to suggest that what so ever.

No, there is no evidence I'll admit. Just doesn't seem in line with the grim darkness of the future for there to have been a major increase in Astartes numbers. Usually things only get worse or stay stagnant.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

baronspikey wrote:Even with such stringent controls on Astartes selection it's still been 10,000 years for their numbers to increase once more- you believe all 1,000 chapters were created in the break up of the Legions, I see no evidence to suggest that what so ever.

No, there is no evidence I'll admit. Just doesn't seem in line with the grim darkness of the future for there to have been a major increase in Astartes numbers. Usually things only get worse or stay stagnant.

New vehicles
Some wargear was "invented" ( found again ) after heresy.
So why should a relatively fast breeding race like humans not reinforce their Angels of death over time ?

Because Marines are not human, and they're too dangerous to allow to become too numerous.

And therein lies the fatal flaw with humanity, now and in 40k, trying to keep something that could save us under control for fear of it instead of using it properly. I say let there be as many UM, SW and CF as possible, that'd end the nid/necron/tau/ork/eldar threats.

The Imperium wouldn't be able to equip them all. They'd have to work planets basicly into slavery because there'd be no way for them to afford it. Bolt rounds alone are very expensive, let alone power armor, special weapons, tanks, etc.

Then it would force advantages in technology to cope, necessity is the mother of invention they always say

DEATH89 wrote:And therein lies the fatal flaw with humanity, now and in 40k, trying to keep something that could save us under control for fear of it instead of using it properly. I say let there be as many UM, SW and CF as possible, that'd end the nid/necron/tau/ork/eldar threats.

As opposed to trying to use them and then having them destroy and dominate us because they triggered another Horus Heresy?

Actually you're demonstrating the true fatal flaw of humanity-- forgetting that history repeats itself. The Imperium is smart enough to know this, and doesn't want to have another Horus Heresy on its hands.

Melissia wrote:Because Marines are not human, and they're too dangerous to allow to become too numerous.

They endanger those who deserve to be gone.

Melissia wrote:

DEATH89 wrote:And therein lies the fatal flaw with humanity, now and in 40k, trying to keep something that could save us under control for fear of it instead of using it properly. I say let there be as many UM, SW and CF as possible, that'd end the nid/necron/tau/ork/eldar threats.

As opposed to trying to use them and then having them destroy and dominate us because they triggered another Horus Heresy?

Actually you're demonstrating the true fatal flaw of humanity-- forgetting that history repeats itself. The Imperium is smart enough to know this, and doesn't want to have another Horus Heresy on its hands.

History never repeats.

The Imperium had the issue of a heresy when 1 person had too much power.
The amount of Space marines, mechanicum units or Guard had nothing to do with it.

Power is now separated into so many hands, another heresy is unlikely.
More space marines would just allow to switch from most defensive strategies to the offensive again.

1hadhq wrote:History never repeats.

Then you've never read a history book.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:History never repeats.

Then you've never read a history book.

The opposite is true.
Those books are interesting as they don't repeat.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:History never repeats.

Then you've never read a history book.

If you'll recall the next great Heresy: The Age of Apostasty was caused by regular humans. The Sisters of Battle played a large role in it if I recall. The Astartes did their best to stop it. Space Marines are some of the few humans alive that actually know the History of the Imperium and therefore strive to stop it from reoccuring.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:History never repeats.

Then you've never read a history book.

If you'll recall the next great Heresy: The Age of Apostasty was caused by regular humans. The Sisters of Battle played a large role in it if I recall. The Astartes did their best to stop it. Space Marines are some of the few non-humans alive that actually know the History of the Imperium and therefore strive to stop it from reoccuring.

Yes, I do believe Sisters played a big part in it.

By stopping it.

Regardless, Imperial Scholars are hardly uneducated in the history of the Imperium, it is merely so vast that many things have been lost.

1hadhq wrote:
History never repeats.

We're kidding here, right?

Tell me we're kidding. Please.

metallifan wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
History never repeats.

We're kidding here, right?

Tell me we're kidding. Please.

It's not history that gets repeated. It's the damned cliches.

I like ultras for one thing MOUNTING THERE SCREAMING HEADS ON SPIKES !

blood reaper wrote:I like ultras for one thing MOUNTING THERE SCREAMING HEADS ON SPIKES !

i dont thinks thats possible
how they scream if they are dead?

Manchu wrote:

metallifan wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
History never repeats.

We're kidding here, right?

Tell me we're kidding. Please.

It's not history that gets repeated. It's the damned cliches.

No, I'm pretty sure its history.

I am not a huge fan of the Ultrasumrfs, but not because they lack character, its because they seem to be the Mary Sues of Space Marines. I mean, any other chapter that got their 1st company wiped out to a man by the 'nids would be the laughingstock of every chapter in the Imperium. But no, all other marines (except the spess pupz) still love them. All of this is still IMHO of course, and all they would need to fix that is some better fluff and to let the other chapters take the spotlight for awhile.

They're easy to hate because they're too perfrect IMO.

Samus_aran115 wrote:wow. Manchu has 5000 posts now...I loled.

???

This thread was my 800th post but that was over a year ago now.

TBH, I still don't think that anyone has posted a very convincing answer of why they don't like Ultramarines.

My conclusion is that a sizable portion of the set called "the kind of people that play 40k" have a deep-seated need to hate the "mainstream" wherever it occurs, even inside of 40k itself. Generally speaking, UM represent that hated mainstream. More specifically, you can find them hating whatever faction has the newest dex.

I still think my out of fluff reason presented around page 2 is quite valid and at the time I'm pretty sure you agreed. Within fluff I might agree with the above, but it since it's a generalization I tend to intrinsically distrust it.

I can see that some of the oldest 40k fans might see it from that perspective (hence, why I said I sympathized with your point BUT I have not myself been a fan of 40k since CF were first founding) but I'm not convinced that this explains the general dislike.

I think Manchu has certainly found a believable reason for most of the dislike - the whole 'anti-establishment/mainstream' angle.

Also, the latest SM Codex was, in my opinion, more than a little over the top with the "Everyone want to be an Ultramarine. Oh, and on top of that, a Tactical Squad Marine too" shtick.

That was misguided and, quite honestly, more than a little silly.

So, until C: SM 6th edition shows up...

The 5. edition Ultras are Marry Sues, even more than your average marine chapter. That is currently their one big fault.
They are the best at everything ( sniping, tank driving, leading, have the greatest psyker... ), Ultramar is a paradise, everyone wants to be like them.
Leaving some glory to the other codex adherent chapters would have improved the book by quite a bit.

Of course i am aware that the Ultramarines are depicted as the paragon of a codex adhering chapter. But one needs to keep in mind
that many of their second founding chapters, who are just as old and nearly as famous, would have really deserved some love.
One only needs to think of the poor Silverskulls, the Black/White Consuls and many others.

So yes, while some people dislike the Ultramarines because it is "stilish" many others simply do not like that they basically monopolize
the 5. edition spacemarine codex.

@Alpharius: I don't quite get where you're coming from. Wasn't the second from last SM dex just as Ultra-heavy?

I always thought that Mephiston was touted as a better psyker than Tigurius . . . also, there's a pretty good argument that all Ultramarine named characters are better for fluffy rather than competitive lists.

IMO, Chapters from the Third Founding on don't deserve any more Codex space than they have. Except Blood Ravens, who deserve less. I'd like to see more on the First Founding loyalists, sure, but the SM Codex is already pretty thick. It's nice to have named characters for Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars, and Salamanders. If you think about it, all that's missing is an Iron Hands guy and you can sub a Master of the Forge in for him nicely.

I don't really dislike Ultramarines.

I absolutely despise with every fibre of my being that an utter milksop fanwanker like Ward got to write the SM codex.

You've seen the pictures of his interview on the codex right? Through the whole damn thing he wouldn't shut up about how the Ultramarines are the best, he loved playing them, and everyone should.

You don't let the man who gushes about how amazing such and such is write an official rulebook on said such and such.

You wouldn't let a conspiracy theorist write a history textbook, you wouldn't let a Flat-Earther write a geology paper, and you shouldn't let Ward write a codex.

Manchu wrote:@Alpharius: I don't quite get where you're coming from. Wasn't the second from last SM dex just as Ultra-heavy?

Really?

While most of the Space Marine codices have been Ultramarine Recruitment Books, NOTHING comes close to the overall tone of the 5th edition version!

Wait till 6th edition, where they reveal that Custodes are the aspirants who were to become Ultramarines, but failed to join their blessed blue ranks.

Oh, and the Emperor will be retconned to have been the first Ultramarine too, and Chaos is evil because they are jealous of the musical stylings of Marneus Calgar.

Haddi wrote:Wait till 6th edition, where they reveal that Custodes are the aspirants who were to become Ultramarines, but failed to join their blessed blue ranks.

Oh, and the Emperor will be retconned to have been the first Ultramarine too, and Chaos is evil because they are jealous of the musical stylings of Marneus Calgar.

Heh heh!

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if that's where GW takes us next time around!

OK, it would, but still!

See immediately above for prime example of what I'm up against in this thread.

EDIT: And immediately below. :(

Alpharius wrote:

Haddi wrote:Wait till 6th edition, where they reveal that Custodes are the aspirants who were to become Ultramarines, but failed to join their blessed blue ranks.

Oh, and the Emperor will be retconned to have been the first Ultramarine too, and Chaos is evil because they are jealous of the musical stylings of Marneus Calgar.

Heh heh!

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if that's where GW takes us next time around!

OK, it would, but still!

6th Edition Space Marine Special Rule:

Is an Ultramarine

No matter what Chapter your marines say they belong to, they are in fact Ultramarines spreading the blue blessing by disguising their beautious armor with the drab colors of other chapters.

All Marines have WS 10 BS 10 S 10 T 10 W 10 I 10 A 10 LD 10 1+++ Save and Automatically Hit and Wound, ignore Armor and Invulnerable saves, and cost 1 point each. This represents all units in the game being awed by the sheer beauty and power of the proud Sons of Rouboute Guilleman.

Manchu wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wow. Manchu has 5000 posts now...I loled.

???

This thread was my 800th post but that was over a year ago now.

TBH, I still don't think that anyone has posted a very convincing answer of why they don't like Ultramarines.

My conclusion is that a sizable portion of the set called "the kind of people that play 40k" have a deep-seated need to hate the "mainstream" wherever it occurs, even inside of 40k itself. Generally speaking, UM represent that hated mainstream. More specifically, you can find them hating whatever faction has the newest dex.

Alpharius wrote:I think Manchu has certainly found a believable reason for most of the dislike - the whole 'anti-establishment/mainstream' angle.

The Phenomenom is called "Haters gonna hate!"

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Defending the Ultramarines @ 2010/08/11 19:48:18

Post by: Manchu

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Phenomenom is called "Haters gonna hate!"

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Defending the Ultramarines @ 2010/08/11 20:31:55

Post by: 1hadhq

Manchu wrote:See immediately above for prime example of what I'm up against in this thread.

EDIT: And immediately below. :(

Nice examples.

Your best bet would be to stop M.W. before he writes another SM dex....
Ultras would have it easier without his "bestest marines" nonsense.

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