I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.
It's been pointed out to me -- and correctly so -- that I opened this post with flamebait. Let me apologize for that. What I really mean is that a lot people started complaining for what seemed like the sake of complaining because they didn't manage to offer non-tautological reasons for their complaints ("I don't like it because it's bad."). And this wasn't the first time they had done so with regard to this particular author.
In my opinion, hating something without a coherent reason or, at least, stating publicly that you hate something without providing a coherent reason, are signs of immaturity. But I do acknowledge the sacred and inviolable right of others to disagree with that assessment and any other I might make.
But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.
To wit:
One of the main themes of the fluff in this latest book is that the GK fight daemons with sorcery. As one or another of them is quoted as saying, the GK don't have to suffer the criticism of anybody who thinks this is a contradiction. Now, is this a revision of previous fluff? Not at all! The closest we come is that GK refused to work with radical Inquisitors who included daemonhosts in their retinues. Fine. All this establishes is that GK don't trust anyone who is not a GK to do this kind of thing. And that's another one of their major themes. That one is heavily implied in the Daemonhunters book and now explicitly laid out in the new book: GK do things that other Imperial citizens are absolutely forbidden to do. Does any of this contradict previous fluff? Nope. That principle is at the very heart of the Inquisition fluff.
One of the purposes of this "fighting fire with fire" theme is to elicit horror. Accessing the power of the Warp is supposed to be really, really terrible. Nothing new here, either. And this reinforces the "GK are able to do what is forbidden to others" theme, given that wielding the Warp is actually a great burden and responsibility for them. It's so dangerous, in fact, that most Imperial citizens, even if they are utterly loyal, need to be executed or at least mindwiped if they become aware that the GK do this or even if they become aware of the very existence of the GK. More horror and nothing new. Indeed, the new book retells the infamous story of the purging of the victorious IG units after Angron was defeated at First Armageddon.
Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.
Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.
Just because it fits their original fluff doesn't make it good
40K is grimdark, yes, but there has to be a line, surely. Space Marines aren't mindless, and they're not so single-minded that nothing matters except their goals. If the eradication of Daemons was the GK sole purpose, and they're willing to sacrifice billions of human beings to do so, they are defeating themselves. If you slaughter your allies to preserve your secrecy or to further your mission to destroy Chaos, surely you are ignoring the point of your mission to start with: To save humanity. If they're willing to ignore what should be the primary purpose of their existence, then as an organisation their usefulness ceases to matter.
The murder of the Sisters on St. Mariel was to make sure that the GK were not corrupted, though I thought the point of them was that they were incorruptible. I don't know if that was an accidental contradiction or if I missed something there, but...
I have no problems with anything except draigo carving some turd's name on MORTARION'S chest. Burned the garden of nurgle? Eh, that's believable. All he needed to do was start a fire.
Samus_aran115 wrote:I have no problems with anything except draigo carving some turd's name on MORTARION'S chest. Burned the garden of nurgle? Eh, that's believable. All he needed to do was start a fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Mortarion the guy who sits in the Chaos Realm being all emo and that, and doesn't enter the Materium?
Scarey Nerd wrote:Just because it fits their original fluff doesn't make it good
40K is grimdark, yes, but there has to be a line, surely. Space Marines aren't mindless, and they're not so single-minded that nothing matters except their goals. If the eradication of Daemons was the GK sole purpose, and they're willing to sacrifice billions of human beings to do so, they are defeating themselves. If you slaughter your allies to preserve your secrecy or to further your mission to destroy Chaos, surely you are ignoring the point of your mission to start with: To save humanity. If they're willing to ignore what should be the primary purpose of their existence, then as an organisation their usefulness ceases to matter.
The murder of the Sisters on St. Mariel was to make sure that the GK were not corrupted, though I thought the point of them was that they were incorruptible. I don't know if that was an accidental contradiction or if I missed something there, but...
In my humble opinion.
Let's see if I get this right.
Daemons will kill 1,000,000 humans.
Grey Knights kill 100,000 humans to defeat the Daemons.
900,000 humans survive!
How is this not saving humanity?
I think people were expecting Grey Knights to be fluffy white knights in shining armor...
Samus_aran115 wrote:I have no problems with anything except draigo carving some turd's name on MORTARION'S chest. Burned the garden of nurgle? Eh, that's believable. All he needed to do was start a fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Mortarion the guy who sits in the Chaos Realm being all emo and that, and doesn't enter the Materium?
He's the Primarch of the death Guard, who was elevated to a daemon prince. He doesn't leave the warp because he doesn't have to, and he can't risk being killed. It's not unique that a daemon primarch doesn't want to leave the warp. Angron, magnus, lorgar and fulgrim barely ever leave the warp.
How could the death guard even let one terminator get that close to their beloved primarch? Not a single plague marine had a plasma gun, or a lascannon to take him down with? Did mortarion invite him to dinner or something?
Daemons will kill 1,000,000 humans. Grey Knights kill 100,000 humans to defeat the Daemons.
900,000 humans survive!
How is this not saving humanity?
I think people were expecting Grey Knights to be fluffy white knights in shining armor...
My point is that the numbers will climb and climb. IIRC, at one point the GK destroy all the daemons that were attacking a system, then kill everyone in the system, then kill a load of AM listening posts in case they realised, then killed a dozen IG troopships in the area. Statistically, they killed more people than the Daemons could have.
@Manchu: Bless you for trying, but once something becomes 'common knowledge' it is difficult to get anything other than 'lol WARD fluff iz bad' out of people.
I liked the GK codex and everything in it. I think that some of the Year / Incident page could have been fleshed out more, but that's the whole point of that page. It is little teasers and doesn't have the whole thing.
I also would like more detail on the Mort battle, but still... These guys are unholy badasses and have always been. Why be surprised when they do something badass?
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Scarey Nerd wrote:
My point is that the numbers will climb and climb. IIRC, at one point the GK destroy all the daemons that were attacking a system, then kill everyone in the system, then kill a load of AM listening posts in case they realised, then killed a dozen IG troopships in the area. Statistically, they killed more people than the Daemons could have.
Daemonic infestations don't stop at a planet or a system. They continue to spread until huge rents in the warp are formed. So did they kill more than they saved? We'll never know because we would never let it get that far.
I think this is because of most people exposure to Grey Knight is that they are the shinning beacon in the fight against Daemons, the Knight that saves the Imperium against the doom that is Daemons
apparently they are just grimdark as everyone else
@Manchu: Excellent! You did a fine job of putting it into perspective.
However, the Draigo bit is still far too over the top.
But, I do not think Matt Ward is a bad writer, he just gets overzealous about whatever army he's writing about and has them doing amazingly epic things. This is the number one reason I want him to write the next Chaos codex, to revive them.
Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.
Back to background? Missed you.
I disagree that it makes sense.
1) GK use sorcery to fend of sorcery sounds ok, until, this sorcery is meant to call upon someone and to call upon chaos is a fast path to be tainted. So GK are either untaintable and have not to fear the danger of using sorcery, but why should the bloodtide endanger them in this case? Or GK are not safe from taint, just have a high resilience against it and needed to pimp their levels of protection.
M:W's way to write it, implys the latter but contradicts itself as GK are shown as safe from corruption. So it reads like he had it both ways.
2) Some Sisters were tainted, and GK took the blood of Sisters, so is it possible the survivors are all free of taint? Maybe not?
3) If its just the blood, was it neccessary to take all of it? If it was about slaying the innocent, this would give the impression it was done to appease a chaos entity. GK seem to safeguard chaos artifacts, but not to use them ( actively ) .
4)The wholesale erase all evidence however, is failing sooner or later. It evolves like a snowball-system, they may have to kill the whole IoM to cover the events.
Surely this piece of fluff gets sometimes blown out of proportion on the interwebz.
But its also unneccessary. The erase all evidence point is made in other pieces just fine, the use of psyker abilities too.
The protection of the GK against taint, may be the only point to be made there and IMO this idea of "pimp yo aegis" with sacrificed blood and sacred oils screams like face painting and magic eyes to fend off the evil. Too much superstition for those in the know for me to believe in. Remember the GK safeguard artifacts. Do they smear blood all over those gates too?
1hadhq wrote: Or GK are not safe from taint, just have a high resilience against it and needed to pimp their levels of protection.
M:W's way to write it, implys the latter but contradicts itself as GK are shown as safe from corruption. So it reads like he had it both ways.
Not really. They're constantly training, praying and protected and steel themselves precisely so they won't fall. And when it looked like they might fall or fail in this situation they did whatever they had to do to defeat their opponents.
4)The wholesale erase all evidence however, is failing sooner or later.
Much like the Imperium itself then ? It might not be a great or long term method... but it's the only one they've got.
Surely this piece of fluff gets sometimes blown out of proportion on the interwebz.
Understatement of the week
But its also unneccessary. The erase all evidence point is made in other pieces just fine, the use of psyker abilities too.
The protection of the GK against taint, may be the only point to be made there and IMO this idea of "pimp yo aegis" with sacrificed blood and sacred oils screams like face painting and magic eyes to fend off the evil. Too much superstition for those in the know for me to believe in. Remember the GK safeguard artifacts. Do they smear blood all over those gates too?
Surely the point is that in the 40K setting that isn'tsuperstition. That might well or does indeed work. Or at the very least part of the actions when they do this works or helps. The entire Imperium is riven with superstition, I don't quite see how or why the Grey Knights, who know more about the daemonic than pretty much any other faction in the setting, wouldn't therefre be superstitious.
1) GK use sorcery to fend of sorcery sounds ok, until, this sorcery is meant to call upon someone and to call upon chaos is a fast path to be tainted. So GK are either untaintable and have not to fear the danger of using sorcery, but why should the bloodtide endanger them in this case? Or GK are not safe from taint, just have a high resilience against it and needed to pimp their levels of protection.
M:W's way to write it, implys the latter but contradicts itself as GK are shown as safe from corruption. So it reads like he had it both ways.
Pretty much this, I don't hate the fluff because the Grey Knights remove witnesses, I remember that being one of the reasons why Logan Grimnar began too personally disapprove of the Inquisition and their methods. I don't disapprove of the Grey Knights using Sorcery against Sorcery, though it seems rather Radical compared to how I personally recall them, though I could be wrong. The thing I do have an issue with about this particular piece of fluff is that the Grey Knights are already supposed to be untaintable by anything Chaos could through at them, so why do they need to use some Blood Magic ritual to make themselves more pure than pure in order to prevent themselves from being tainted. Something they are already supposed to be incapable of.
(1) This one also goes out to Sacrey Nerd, who brought it up first. GK are not all utterly incorruptible. As I understand it, they are highly resistant as a group. Among the whole, the Purifiers stand out as even more resistant -- in fact, nigh incorruptible. And then there's Crowe who is totally incorruptible -- or is he? (See, Ward even leaves the "invincibility" of his "invincible" characters in question. That's for all the kids who scream "Mary Sue" at Ward's stuff.) I don't think the Grey Knights at Van Horne were Purifiers (there are only like 40 of them anyhow) and I'm sure Crowe wasn't among them. So, yes, corruption was a possibility. In fact, the story establishes that it is an especially virulent form of corruption: the priests of the IoM are the first to fall victim to the Bloodtide. Now, this is in part because of their proximity to the disturbed stasis field. But it also signifies that this particular corruption is very, very powerful. And here we have another reinforced theme: the GK are super-powerful elite anti-daemon experts - BUT - there aren't tons of them, so they only respond to the worst of the worst problems. That includes, by the way, some problems that are possibly too great for even them to overcome. In these cases, they need to employ the dangerous, forbidden knowledge that only they are entrusted to employ. That's what they did in this case and in several others throughout the book.
This is just the most gruesome example. I tend to agree with Amaya and Retrias: this seems like an awfully bad thing for the good guys to do and that unsettles people. In any case, there is no contradiction present because GK are not all totally incorruptible. Don't confuse "none have ever fallen" with "none can ever fall."
(2) You're challenging a fact of the story. Some of the Sisters became corrupted, some did not. To say that some of those who did not actually did is not arguing about this story. Instead, you are talking about another story; one that you are making up. It's like saying "the Grey Knights arrived at the planet but maybe they weren't actually Grey Knights." The SoB that the GK killed were not tainted.
(3) That's a very good point that cuts right to the real contradiction of the GK -- i.e., the one that has been an intentional contradiction of the 40k fluff for a long time: what real difference is there between being a psyker and being a sorcerer. And, of course, we've had that debate before and it all comes down to personal interpretation. In this case, it totally fits the fluff, however: the GK are called upon to do especially terrible things (not just awesome things) in their fight against the Ruinous Powers.
Still, let's not be totally equivocal. There's a very important distinction:
- the daemons of Khorne conquer humanity with the psychic power of tainted blood
- the Grey Knights defeat the daemons of Khorne wit hthe pyschic power of pure and holy blood
(4) The idea that the entire IoM might have to be sacrificed can be answered in two ways: (a) the IoM represents a totally unimaginable amount of human beings so an organization as small as the GK involved with only a small set of the most major daemonic incursions will never really make a dent - AND - (b) yes, the whole IoM might need to be sacrificed and that could be what's best for humanity. As to this second answer, let's not forget about the mysterious Terminus Decree. We don't really know what it is, but it sounds like it could be something like answer (b) there.
Finally, your conclusion: Your concern seems to really be "are these GK just Chaos sorcerers or what?" That's the really horrifying part of their fluff. We usually think of there being some neat line between the good guys who are psykers and the bad guys who are chaos-worshiping witches and sorcerers. The GK make us realize that this distinction "exists only in the minds of men"--I think that's an exact quote from the dex, actually. (Don't have it in front of me). And what does that say about the Emperor? And the Imperium? It puts the Horus Heresy into perspective, doesn't it?
The heroic essence of the GK is that they are somehow able to stay on the right side of this shifting boundary between faith and madness, between purity and corruption, against all odds. Now: what is so right about their side? It's still pretty horrifying, after all.
BrotherStynier wrote:
Pretty much this, I don't hate the fluff because the Grey Knights remove witnesses, I remember that being one of the reasons why Logan Grimnar began too personally disapprove of the Inquisition and their methods. I don't disapprove of the Grey Knights using Sorcery against Sorcery, though it seems rather Radical compared to how I personally recall them, though I could be wrong. The thing I do have an issue with about this particular piece of fluff is that the Grey Knights are already supposed to be untaintable by anything Chaos could through at them, so why do they need to use some Blood Magic ritual to make themselves more pure than pure in order to prevent themselves from being tainted. Something they are already supposed to be incapable of.
There have always been degrees of purity/chaos resistance, just as there are degrees of morale. What protects you from standard daemonic influence and warp resistance is not going to protect you from prolonged exposure to the warp or to the direct influence of a greater daemon.
On those same lines, while the Aegis and mental fortitude are common amongst all GK, some are more pure than others and have greater mental fortitude (hence purifiers). But even for Purifiers (the purest of the pure) some are more pure than those (Crowe, for example). When faced with such a catastrophic exposure to daemonic influence that even the weaker sisters were corrupted (sisters being notoriously uncorruptible, with only 1 documented previous instance outside of Daemonifuge), the GKs weren't taking any chances.
With limited time left (hours before the Bloodtide consumed that world), they weren't going screwing around and I don't blame them.
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Manchu wrote:Finally, your conclusion: Your concern seems to really be "are these GK just Chaos sorcerers or what?" That's the really horrifying part of their fluff. We usually think of there being some neat line between the good guys who are psykers and the bad guys who are chaos-worshiping witches and sorcerers. The GK make us realize that this distinction "exists only in the minds of men"--I think that's an exact quote from the dex, actually. (Don't have it in front of me). And what does that say about the Emperor? And the Imperium? It puts the Horus Heresy into perspective, doesn't it?
Especially considering what happened to the 1k-sons. I always though Magnus' legion could have been the GKs if they had played their cards right.
Not having read the entirety of the new Codex Im not sure where you guys are getting that the Grey Knights are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos?
Is this said in the current fluff, because if it is I'll drop my argument as I don't have another fairly recent source of fluff regarding them. I atleast seem to recall the old book saying they are immune to the effects, no exceptions, though Like I have said I could be wrong.
That stance on fluff being said, I will still stand by older Night Lords and ADB Night Lords fluff in case things get drastically changed. On the Grey Knight matter they were never fully fleshed out, and as much as I may disagree with certain things that have been done to my first army. I suppose that even disappointing fluff can be better than little to no fluff.
90% of the fluff in the book is good. Draigo and the blood tide are bad. I even think the Necron working with BA is good, and if you have been following 40k for a while fluffy even, as necrons need things to "red harvest" and tyranids leave nothing.
My big gripe is the return to exterminus everything of 3rd edition. Back when the fluff was SM win the battle or bomb the planet, either way they always win. 4th edition codeci had to go out of thier way to explain how each race could avoid the auto win bombing. Chaos using big guns and daemon shields, and Nids burrowing underground. A lot of GK fluff is either we win, or we bomb you and win anyways. They are the only codex with not a single loss in the fluff, just a few draws.
The GK have a two-page spread in the Daemonhunters dex that I read last night in preparation for posting this. There is no mention of them being totally immune to Chaos.
I think what you're remembering is that not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. But, as I said to 1hadhq, don't confuse "none have fallen" with "none can fall."
*Let me just add that I didn't review Index Astartes II before writing this.
Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward. But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.
I guess I'm 16 at heart then. Here's an individual 'whine' for you to consider. (seriously, you're opening is pure flamebait mate...)
I found it puerile, immature and considered it poorly written, given that I'm currently rereading The Lost and The Damned and took the time to read the new GK codex during that, the difference is glaring and disappointing.
I have never given two gaks about being cool (because frankly I never will be...) but that changes nothing about the 'fluff' in this book or the BA codex, it's just poorly conceived, constructed and presented. It's a series of brazen and childish one-ups that tear at the well established background's previous dark themes with all the sophistry and wit of Ted Nugent parachuting into the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures with a quim shaped electric guitar.
Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.
That's a reasonable criticism. Note, however, that the GK also get bombed -- specifically, Huron Blackheart bombs the gak out of some GK, leaving only one GK alive. As to the win-or-bomb-and-win scenario, that's hard to avoid with GK: the stakes are so high that those are really their only options and they know that going into most fights. So you have some GK standing by to bomb in case winning on the ground becomes impossible.
I don't get, however, why you still think the Bloodtide story is bad.
That's a reasonable criticism. Note, however, that the GK also get bombed -- specifically, Huron Blackheart bombs the gak out of some GK, leaving only one GK alive. As to the win-or-bomb-and-win scenario, that's hard to avoid with GK: the stakes are so high that those are really their only options and they know that going into most fights. So you have some GK standing by to bomb in case winning on the ground becomes impossible.
I don't get, however, why you still think the Bloodtide story is bad.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a part in the book that describes some GK surviving an orbital bombardment that wipes out tonnes of Daemons and Tyranids because their armour is good.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.
Then it was dross when it was written in 2003, too. If you've always thought GK were gak, then I'm not sure what is surprising or disappointing about still thinking they're gak. I don't know that 40k has ever been much more than OTT one ups. That's the very concept of a Space Marine.
Also, MGS: I think you're cool!
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Scarey Nerd wrote:Again, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a part in the book that describes some GK surviving an orbital bombardment that wipes out tonnes of Daemons and Tyranids because their armour is good.
Yep. They're trapped deep inside of a building and the bombardment causes a partial collapse of that building. The guys with the better armor save make their saves.
@Manchu: IA 2 says things like 'The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonic creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers.'
Emphasis mine.
Also, IA 2 says that the Librarium Daemonica that every GK carries 'contains the essential tenets of lore culled from the Librarium Daemonica' which is listed as 'blasphemous knowledge' and 'damned collection of knowledge'.
So they have always liked their coffee a little black.
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Manchu wrote:
Scarey Nerd wrote:Again, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a part in the book that describes some GK surviving an orbital bombardment that wipes out tonnes of Daemons and Tyranids because their armour is good.
Yep. They're trapped deep inside of a building and the bombardment causes a partial collapse of that building. The guys with the better armor save make their saves.
Yeah, valid tactic that I would use in a battle. Hmm. I have AP3 bombardment weaponry and a ton of terminators. Do I care if it scatters onto my guys? Not really...
Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward. But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.
I guess I'm 16 at heart then. Here's an individual 'whine' for you to consider. (seriously, you're opening is pure flamebait mate...)
I found it puerile, immature and considered it poorly written, given that I'm currently rereading The Lost and The Damned and took the time to read the new GK codex during that, the difference is glaring and disappointing.
I have never given two gaks about being cool (because frankly I never will be...) but that changes nothing about the 'fluff' in this book or the BA codex, it's just poorly conceived, constructed and presented. It's a series of brazen and childish one-ups that tear at the well established background's previous dark themes with all the sophistry and wit of Ted Nugent parachuting into the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures with a quim shaped electric guitar.
Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.
It is mostly bad one upping, yes. But it's something, a bad something. But something is better than the very little we had, or Im just becoming very indeferent to the Codex fluff, hoping instead for better fluff in the BL's books that I can look to instead and only use the codexes for rules.
No one is saying Matt Ward is Shakespeare. And no one is saying that 40k is literature. But I actually like it. It's no surprise to me that people who think the quality of 40k fluff is poor overall don't like particular parts of it, either. What surprises me is that they come to a site about 40k and complain about it.
Huron came as close to victory as one could hope to come. That aside, I was tickled pink by the rofl stop fateweaver took, not Kugath so much as he actually gave the grey knights fits before one he ate cut it's way out of his belly. The hing about the sister sory that got to me s that the sisters were saved by their faith, when I don't think the GK are any less faithful than they are, they just hunt deamons instead of witches. It also implied that faith can be transmuted with blood, although I can kinda buy that. Question now is would the insane sisters of battle turn on the Grey knights for using sorcery. If aybody would stand up to the grey knights, it would be the crazed brides of the Emperor.
Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron, magnus, lorgar and fulgrim barely ever leave the warp.
Look up the Dominion of Fire and The First War for Armageddon. He kinda was out of the warp a ton. Then he got banished, but hey.
For how long versus the 10,000 years (realtime) he's been around and the countless ages he's lived in the warp?
Magnus spent some time messing with the Space Wolves too, but it was relatively short compared to overall time that he could have been messing with them.
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sexiest_hero wrote:Question now is would the insane sisters of battle turn on the Grey knights for using sorcery. If aybody would stand up to the grey knights, it would be the crazed brides of the Emperor.
Ecclesiarchy might, if you found a priest or somesuch crazy enough, but I'd think that the sisters, if they even knew about the GK, would probably find that what they are doing is necessary.
GK are pretty high up on the Emperor's good boy list and that probably counts for something with the sisters.
Also, the Brides are gone. They hate it when you call them that.
Manchu wrote:Getting ninja'd is good here, pretre. It bears repeating, since this is apparently a big cause of the confusion/frustration:
GK are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos.
Ehhhh.
We've been told time and time again, even in the Grey Knights book, that they are immune to the spiritual temptation of Chaos.
There's a quote in there about "The spirit is unbreakable, but the flesh is vulnerable".
We don't know what the exact effects of the Bloodtide were. There might very well have been a physical component, and that's what we were seeing them being 'vulnerable' to.
It's hard to say whether Sisters even know about GK. Could they recognize them as servants of the Emperor? Surely, one of their officers would recognize them as agents of the Inquisition. That's probably enough for Sisters to reconsider "purging" them.
What would happen if the GK crossed paths with the BT? That would be awkward.
Manchu wrote:Getting ninja'd is good here, pretre. It bears repeating, since this is apparently a big cause of the confusion/frustration:
GK are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos.
Ehhhh.
We've been told time and time again, even in the Grey Knights book, that they are immune to the spiritual temptation of Chaos.
There's a quote in there about "The spirit is unbreakable, but the flesh is vulnerable".
We don't know what the exact effects of the Bloodtide were. There might very well have been a physical component, and that's what we were seeing them being 'vulnerable' to.
The prosecution draws the defences attention once again to the use of an umbrella, an anorak, or perhaps a riot shield.
Kanluwen wrote:
We've been told time and time again, even in the Grey Knights book, that they are immune to the spiritual temptation of Chaos.
There's a quote in there about "The spirit is unbreakable, but the flesh is vulnerable".
We don't know what the exact effects of the Bloodtide were. There might very well have been a physical component, and that's what we were seeing them being 'vulnerable' to.
That's contradicted by IA2 and the new GK book with the fluff of the Purifiers and Crowe, where they are said to be 'resistant'. That being said, I think you are right that there is definitely a physical component involved.
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Scarey Nerd wrote:
The prosecution draws the defences attention once again to the use of an umbrella, an anorak, or perhaps a riot shield.
It wasn't really funny the first time. But keep trying...
@Kanluwen: I think you may have the GK's battle cries/litanies confused with their fluff . . . But yeah, there could have been a "physical" as opposed/in addition to spiritual component. It's very clear at this point that the GK are not immune to Chaos and there's been no division of that immunity between physical and spiritual domains that I can recall either in the new book or in C: DH.
@Kanluwen: 'purifiers recruit only from those amongst their Battle-Brothers whose souls are considered to be utterly incorruptible and resistant to the temptations of the Warp'
Don't take your water-resistant watch into the pool, but it is cool in the rain.
Don't take your purifier into the bloodtide, but it is cool in a normal daemonic infestation.
pretre wrote:It wasn't really funny the first time. But keep trying...
For once in my life, I'm not making a joke in particular. I cannot comprehend how the first idea they had to stop a tide of blood was to use other, nicer blood to repel Chaos. Why not evacuate the sisters, mindwipe them and exterminatus the planet? Why not use Stormravens with GK shooting out the sides? There were many alternatives to the murder of the Sisters.
It seems to me that a lot of people are upset because the Grey Knights fluff has changed, though evolved may be more appropriate, over the last couple of years. I cannot comment on Rogue Trader but as far back as 2nd edition the Grey Knights were demon fighting heroes and paragons of "good" (I understand this is a loaded term). Indeed, one could argue that they were the only real "good-guys" in the entire universe because Grey Knights really only fought demons (who are objectively evil). This Grey Knights = ultimate heroes continued into their Index Astartes article. It was only in the Demon Hunters codex that they really started to, pardon the pun, enter a more gray moral area.
I actually like the new direction that the fluff is going in. It makes a bit more sense given the grimdark theme that GW has been pushing recently. That said, I do understand why some people are upset about this. There are undoubtedly some people who liked the Grey Knights purely because they were the ultimate good guys. When the ultimate good guys start slaughtering nuns, even if it was done for a greater good, people are going to get upset. I think a decent way to look at it, though this may fail spectacularly, is to use Superman and Batman as examples. The Grey Knights were originally Superman, the ultimate good guy. Now they are moving aggressively into Batman territory and people who like the Superman ethos are not happy about it and I think they have a right to be a bit upset. The rage has been way over the top recently though.
What would happen if the GK crossed paths with the BT? That would be awkward.
IIRC, it states in the BT codex that they are OK with the Grey Knights.
BT Codex wrote wrote:ABHOR THE WITCH. Such is the sacred revulsion in which the Black Templars hold witches and warlocks that they will never fight alongside such abominations. No model with psychic powers may be fielded as an ally to the Black Templars and they will not fight as allies to any army that includes any models with psychic powers, with the exception of Grey Knights Space Marines
Scarey Nerd wrote:For once in my life, I'm not making a joke in particular. I cannot comprehend how the first idea they had to stop a tide of blood was to use other, nicer blood to repel Chaos. Why not evacuate the sisters, mindwipe them and exterminatus the planet? Why not use Stormravens with GK shooting out the sides? There were many alternatives to the murder of the Sisters.
Were there? Apparently there weren't, or I'm sure that they would have used them.
We don't know that the Bloodtide would have been contained. In fact, one would think that the exterminatus of the population might have actually enhanced it (that much death and killing could only enhance a Khornate problem). All we have to work on is that the page in question says there are hours before the Bloodtide consumes the world and that the last time the BT was released, it killed millions (5th Ed RB).
Hey Manchu, don't know if you caught my post on that other thread but basically I agree. People are just upset that the Grey Knights aren't (and I try not to use this term) super mary sues. That they have a dark side. Well they do and its pretty fikkin' dark. I like it actually.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.
Then it was dross when it was written in 2003, too. If you've always thought GK were gak, then I'm not sure what is surprising or disappointing about still thinking they're gak. I don't know that 40k has ever been much more than OTT one ups. That's the very concept of a Space Marine.
Why so serious...?
I've never said that GKs were gak nor do I really care about the previous fluff for good or ill, but this new codex, along with the BA one, just reads poorly. Not sure where you got me saying anything bad about previous fluff. Consider what stood out as 'orrible to me.
*Hopping into the warp to beat up a deamonically elevated primarch and carve someone's name into his heart then carrying on living in the warp and wandering around like some power armoured littlest hobbo. These are the kind of mythic tasks of a primarch, not 'that guy in my codex'.
*Casting a spell to send a planet through time. If you can pull a stunt like that, why aren't you going back and killing horus in the 'birth pod' or whatever, or moving planets out of the way of hive fleets or something, 'hey fulgrim, you know that sword, don't be playing with it or you'll go bad', 'Your emperorness, Lorgar has serious issues'.
*Murdering SOBs to create 'holy' protection blood paint for their armour. What would be holy about the spilled blood of valiant defenders murdered by these interlopers? What they just did fits the criteria for Khorne worship. The notion of fighting bad blood with pure blood is surely countered with 'how pure was it once the brave defenders were betrayed by their supposed liberators and murdered'.
Was any of this written in 2003? Along with the fast vindicator/deepstriking landraider driving BAs and their newfound necron friendship, it's just bad writing. It's certainly annoying when the '+1' crowd decide to make it a meme or whatever but, well, they have a point with these books. Neither one is particularly good imo.
You are very welcome and perfectly entitled to enjoy and approve these developments in the codices and I am as entitled to consider them far too over the top and silly.
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: I think you may have the GK's battle cries/litanies confused with their fluff . . . But yeah, there could have been a "physical" as opposed/in addition to spiritual component.
No, it's actually stated in there. "They are spiritually incorruptible, but the flesh is weak and can betray them before their work is done" or something to that effect.
But of course just saying that they are "resistant to Chaos" could mean anything. It could mean that they have an innate resistance to the temptations of Chaos, or that they have an innate resistance to sorcerous attacks from the Ruinous Powers, etc.
It's so very vague that you could argue for years about this and not gain any ground in one direction or the other. It's the same with the "Tau being dim within the Warp" crap that the Tau fanboys love to cite as a reason why they should be immune to Psyker attacks.
Just because you have a "resistance" or are "difficult to sense" within/to the Warp: it doesn't mean that you cannot be harmed by it. If that were the case, then Blanks wouldn't be able to be killed by psykers unleashing blasts that roast them alive.
It's very clear at this point that the GK are not immune to Chaos and there's been no division of that immunity between physical and spiritual domains that I can recall either in the new book or in C: DH.
So where are the traitor Grey Knights in the lore? We've not seen a single one. If they're "not immune to Chaos", then they would have at least one Grey Knight who has fallen by now.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I've never said that GKs were gak nor do I really care about the previous fluff for good or ill, but this new codex, along with the BA one, just reads poorly. Not sure where you got me saying anything bad about previous fluff. Consider what stood out as 'orrible to me.
Fair enough. You don't like how it reads.
That being said your responses below are part of the problem with the criticism that I see. I.e. it isn't accurate.
*Hopping into the warp to beat up a deamonically elevated primarch and carve someone's name into his heart then carrying on living in the warp and wandering around like some power armoured littlest hobbo. These are the kind of mythic tasks of a primarch, not 'that guy in my codex'.
Didn't happen like that. It was part of a battle where the previous SGM was killed, Draigo (along with the rest of the GK brotherhoods there) smashed his way to the heart of the Daemonic army and knocked Mortarion down. The second part is not because he wants to. He is trapped in the warp by the ruinous powers. I'm sure he'd love to get back to his boys, but except for a few short escapes, he can't.
*Casting a spell to send a planet through time. If you can pull a stunt like that, why aren't you going back and killing horus in the 'birth pod' or whatever, or moving planets out of the way of hive fleets or something, 'hey fulgrim, you know that sword, don't be playing with it or you'll go bad', 'Your emperorness, Lorgar has serious issues'.
Not what hapenned. They activated the moon sized gellar fields and went to the warp. And just like a lot of trips to the warp, things got messed up and they didn't come back until some time later. They did not go back in time. The only documented 'back in time' in a codex that I know of is the Ork codex where the Warboss offs himself so he can have two guns.
*Murdering SOBs to create 'holy' protection blood paint for their armour. What would be holy about the spilled blood of valiant defenders murdered by these interlopers? What they just did fits the criteria for Khorne worship. The notion of fighting bad blood with pure blood is surely countered with 'how pure was it once the brave defenders were betrayed by their supposed liberators and murdered'.
Who says the sisters were betrayed? The GKs can't betray the sisters. Their calling is higher and I'm sure if they had the time and explained it to them, the sisters would have been cool. But you know, planet's gonna blow up and daemons are going to get out pretty quick if we dawdle.
Was any of this written in 2003? Along with the fast vindicator/deepstriking landraider driving BAs and their newfound necron friendship, it's just bad writing. It's certainly annoying when the '+1' crowd decide to make it a meme or whatever but, well, they have a point with these books. Neither one is particularly good imo.
Overcharged engines have been around forever. Deepstriking landraiders are just an extension of Thunderhawk use so are putting rules to something that has been done in the fluff for a while. Necron friendship, IMHO, was to show some of Dante's ennui and hunger for peace.
You are very welcome and perfectly entitled to enjoy and approve these developments in the codices and I am as entitled to consider them far too over the top and silly.
Absolutely. I just protest when those decisions are made on incorrect facts.
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Kanluwen wrote:
It's very clear at this point that the GK are not immune to Chaos and there's been no division of that immunity between physical and spiritual domains that I can recall either in the new book or in C: DH.
So where are the traitor Grey Knights in the lore? We've not seen a single one. If they're "not immune to Chaos", then they would have at least one Grey Knight who has fallen by now.
IA2 wrote:'The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonic creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers.'
For the same reason that only 1 SOB is documented as falling and the GK are that much more pure than the SOB.
Also, if there was one who fell, do you think we would hear about it? Either the fall would be part of a massive loss (say a Brotherhood tries to stem a Daemonic Invasion and fails) and so no one would live to tell the tale or the =I= would have that covered up faster than anything.
Yep, they moved the planet into the warp and time accelerated in the warp and then they revealed themselves a few years later as a full chapter from the original 8 marines.
codex GK wrote:Before leaving Titan for the final time, Malcador
forged one last enchantment, greater than any that had
come before it. Titan vanished completely from its orbit,
hidden from Horus in the most unlikely of refuges - Malcador had anchored it amongst the tides of the Warp. Protected by Macro-Geller fields and sigilic rites of Malcador's own devising, Titan rode out the tumult of the Warp whilst the
rest of the galaxy endured through the last months of the
Horus Heresy and the tragedy of the Emperor's final battle
Titan finally returned to its orbit in the mortal realm amidst
the anarchy of the Second Founding. Time had flowed
differently in the Warp, and Titan had endured a measure of years far greater than that of the mortal world. So it was that a Chapter that had entered the Warp composed of a mere eight Space Marines and hundreds upon hundreds of untrained recruits, emerged with a full complement of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers.
And I'm still not getting why not just have the surviving loyalists from those chapters who fell come together and found the order with the fledgling inquisition in a more clandestine and less 'over 9000' sort of way.
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: I think you may have the GK's battle cries/litanies confused with their fluff . . . But yeah, there could have been a "physical" as opposed/in addition to spiritual component.
No, it's actually stated in there. "They are spiritually incorruptible, but the flesh is weak and can betray them before their work is done" or something to that effect.
But of course just saying that they are "resistant to Chaos" could mean anything. It could mean that they have an innate resistance to the temptations of Chaos, or that they have an innate resistance to sorcerous attacks from the Ruinous Powers, etc.
It's so very vague that you could argue for years about this and not gain any ground in one direction or the other. It's the same with the "Tau being dim within the Warp" crap that the Tau fanboys love to cite as a reason why they should be immune to Psyker attacks.
Just because you have a "resistance" or are "difficult to sense" within/to the Warp: it doesn't mean that you cannot be harmed by it. If that were the case, then Blanks wouldn't be able to be killed by psykers unleashing blasts that roast them alive.
It's very clear at this point that the GK are not immune to Chaos and there's been no division of that immunity between physical and spiritual domains that I can recall either in the new book or in C: DH.
So where are the traitor Grey Knights in the lore? We've not seen a single one. If they're "not immune to Chaos", then they would have at least one Grey Knight who has fallen by now.
I think in a way the Bloodtide incident proves their incorruptibilty of spirit. If you can do something like that and not be corrupted you're pretty incorruptible. However, there's two types of corruption. Character flaw corruption (which apparently Grey Knights are immune too) and direct warp energy exposure corruption which no one can really be 100% immune to. If you want some tomperory immunity to a form of that then apparently you need to bath in the blood of innocents...who knew?
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Yep, they moved the planet into the warp and time accelerated in the warp and then they revealed themselves a few years later as a full chapter from the original 8 marines.
You're misreading that.
Notice the part that I bolded. That's a known property of the warp.
codex GK wrote:Before leaving Titan for the final time, Malcador forged one last enchantment, greater than any that had come before it. Titan vanished completely from its orbit, hidden from Horus in the most unlikely of refuges - Malcador had anchored it amongst the tides of the Warp. Protected by Macro-Geller fields and sigilic rites of Malcador's own devising, Titan rode out the tumult of the Warp whilst the rest of the galaxy endured through the last months of the Horus Heresy and the tragedy of the Emperor's final battle Titan finally returned to its orbit in the mortal realm amidst the anarchy of the Second Founding. Time had flowed differently in the Warp, and Titan had endured a measure of years far greater than that of the mortal world. So it was that a Chapter that had entered the Warp composed of a mere eight Space Marines and hundreds upon hundreds of untrained recruits, emerged with a full complement of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers.
There are very few imperial institutions that wouldn't absolutely stab another institution in the back if they thought it would help. Probably the only exceptions are some of the more "honorable" Space Marine chapters.
Inquisitors (and by extention their agents) don't play small ball. A world is worth far more than some SoBs. Worlds are a finite resource. Sisters of Battle can be replaced.
Also, I'd like to speak to the whole concept that orbital bombardment = win. Again, that is another world lost to the imperium. It is now useless and pushes the Imperium one step closer to the brink. It's a scorched earth policy of a desperate race that's been put on the defensive for the better part of 10,000 years.
Manchu wrote:No one is saying Matt Ward is Shakespeare. And no one is saying that 40k is literature. But I actually like it. It's no surprise to me that people who think the quality of 40k fluff is poor overall don't like particular parts of it, either. What surprises me is that they come to a site about 40k and complain about it.
For the most part I only have issues with Matt Ward and Goto's additions to the fluff, not saying this because of what everyone else is saying either. I've actually read Goto's DoW series, and Matt Ward's changes to the Space Marines were one of the things that made me change my army to Chaos. I don't like many of the changes he makes to the fluff and sometimes the rules.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I think in a way the Bloodtide incident proves their incorruptibilty of spirit. If you can do something like that and not be corrupted you're pretty incorruptible. However, there's two types of corruption. Character flaw corruption (which apparently Grey Knights are immune too) and direct warp energy exposure corruption which no one can really be 100% immune to. If you want some tomperory immunity to a form of that then apparently you need to bath in the blood of innocents...who knew?
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
And I'm still not getting why not just have the surviving loyalists from those chapters who fell come together and found the order with the fledgling inquisition in a more clandestine and less 'over 9000' sort of way.
Mate, Titan is a moon
That's is still pretty crazy.
What was the original founding story for the Grey Knights?
andain841 wrote:Indeed, one could argue that they were the only real "good-guys" in the entire universe because Grey Knights really only fought demons (who are objectively evil).
Fighting evil exclusively doesn't necessarily make you good. I agree with you that people have an expectation that Grey Knight really means White Knight. I just don't think it's a realistic expectation to have of 40k or the basis for any reasonable critique of their current codex.
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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Murdering SOBs to create 'holy' protection blood paint for their armour. What would be holy about the spilled blood of valiant defenders murdered by these interlopers? What they just did fits the criteria for Khorne worship. The notion of fighting bad blood with pure blood is surely countered with 'how pure was it once the brave defenders were betrayed by their supposed liberators and murdered'.
Actually what they did does NOT fit the criteria for Khorne worship. The essence of Khorne worship isn't just spilling blood. It's spilling blood for the Blood God. You're right about my OP starting with flamebait, which was wrong of me, I should edit in an apology. I can see that it distracted you from the rest of the post, which outlined the explicit way that this example takes the daemonic weapon and turns it against the daemonic. It's not just as simple as taking your enemies' swords and cutting off their heads with them. The GK literally transform the weapon of the daemon, blood sacrifice to Khorne, and turn it into a weapon against the daemons, blood sacrifice more or less to/on behalf of the Emperor.
MGS wrote:Was any of this written in 2003?
The specific incidents you mentioned are the logical extensions of the background laid down in 2003, as my OP systematically explains. I'm not arguing that they're OTT. I am arguing that 40k is now and has always been OTT.
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:If you want some tomperory immunity to a form of that then apparently you need to bath in the blood of innocents...who knew?
YES! This sums up the gothic horror that we're supposed to love. Warp Magic is not good -- even when "good guys" do it.
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Kanluwen wrote:So where are the traitor Grey Knights in the lore? We've not seen a single one. If they're "not immune to Chaos", then they would have at least one Grey Knight who has fallen by now.
Third time posting this ITT: do not confuse "none have fallen" with "none can ever fall."
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Murdering SOBs to create 'holy' protection blood paint for their armour. What would be holy about the spilled blood of valiant defenders murdered by these interlopers? What they just did fits the criteria for Khorne worship. The notion of fighting bad blood with pure blood is surely countered with 'how pure was it once the brave defenders were betrayed by their supposed liberators and murdered'.
Actually what they did does NOT fit the criteria for Khorne worship. The essence of Khorne worship isn't just spilling blood. It's spilling blood for the Blood God. You're right about my OP starting with flamebait, which was wrong of me, I should edit in an apology. I can see that it distracted you from the rest of the post, which outlined the explicit way that this example takes the daemonic weapon and turns it against the daemonic. It's not just as simple as taking your enemies sword and cutting off his head with it. The GK literally transform the weapon of the daemon, blood sacrifice to Khorne, and turn it into a weapon against the daemons, blood sacrifice more or less to/on behalf of the Emperor.
MGS wrote:Was any of this written in 2003?
The specific incidents you mentioned are the logical extensions of the background laid down in 2003, as my OP systematically explains. I'm not arguing that they're OTT. I am arguing that 40k is now and has always been OTT.
Good of you to amend the opening of your post.
Where you and I are missing each other here is that you have sat down and construed meanings for the various actions in the books and what I'm saying is that I believe they were not written with those detailed and well thought out meanings behind them. Perhaps we can get you writing the fluff for Ward's books instead of Ward, or at least proof reading them and filling the spaces.
The return to mindwiping, guard massacring etc is part of the fluff of old and in keeping with the original RoCTL&TD fiction and gives them back their sinister and dark rep, which I like. The OTT has indeed always been a part of 40k, each codex going one-upping it's army (swarmlord beating on MCalgar for example) but the last two Ward books do seem to have 'gone up to 11' on the whole thing as though aimed at an even younger audience.
Part of why I love both Warhammer backgrounds is the mature and dark themes employed by background, I am not keen on seeing that swept away in an avalanche of hair rock guitar riffs as marine ulta-galva-mega heroes save the day and 'don't afraid of nothing' or however that saying goes.
Manchu wrote:Fighting evil exclusively doesn't necessarily make you good. I agree with you that people have an expectation that Grey Knight really means White Knight. I just don't think it's a realistic expectation to have of 40k or the basis for any reasonable critique of their current codex.
You're absolutely right. Just fighting evil does not necessarily make someone good, it helps though. The Grey Knights were always (historically may be a better word) presented as the holy, pure of heart, heroes that banished evil from the galaxy. I agree that the current grim/dark trajectory of 40k would make the inclusion of a "White Knight" a bit silly and out of place. Where I disagree is with your last point. I think that using the old fiction to critique the new codex is eminently reasonable. What else is the "White Knight" crowd supposed to use to compare it to? Or is your assertion that arguing based on fluff from before the Demon Hunter Codex is unreasonable? If that is the case then I can see your point but I'm not certain I agree with it.
edit:
@Manchu
It would seem that MeanGreenStompa's post just above shows that the Grey Knights were originally more sinister than they were portrayed through 2nd and 3rd ed. This would seem to lend weight to your argument that the expectation of a "White Knight" is not reasonable.
MGS wrote:the last two Ward books do seem to have 'gone up to 11'
Made my day. Nigel Tufnel would indeed love Matt Ward.
I really do think Ward had those meanings in mind when he penned the Bloodtide episode. The themes are perfectly consistent. He's just a better than it is fashionable (among we the unfashionable) to admit.
I distinctly recall some early fluff about the GK's think it was pre-2ed.
They definetly never were good, good guys. they're indiscriminate in how they work to purge the taint.
(the story itself, centered around an imperial planetary commander, who dealt with tzeentch and was lured, so his little helper had by some odd way of communicating gotten the word to the GKs who teleported in and the story ended with them, well. Killing everything.)
Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron, magnus, lorgar and fulgrim barely ever leave the warp.
Look up the Dominion of Fire and The First War for Armageddon. He kinda was out of the warp a ton. Then he got banished, but hey.
For how long versus the 10,000 years (realtime) he's been around and the countless ages he's lived in the warp?
Magnus spent some time messing with the Space Wolves too, but it was relatively short compared to overall time that he could have been messing with them.
Angron's fluff pretty much states that whenever he's capable of leaving(ie. He's recovered from his banishment, which could take 100 years Real Time or 1000, there's no set amount of time), he does. He's not the type to sit around lamenting, especially since becoming a Daemon.
Out of all the Primarchs, Angron gets a LOT of Real Space time.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:They seem like a pretty bitter lot.
Most of them were tricked into turning on the Emperor by Horus/Erebus or were turned on by the Emperor (like Magnus). They've got plenty to be bitter about.
Mordoskul wrote:I've got no problem with the Grey Knights Codex, my issue is with the whole Blood Angels-Necron team up. Please explain that.
OK:
Ah the infamous Blood Angels-Necron bro-fist incident. I believe that version of events was a little bit of revisionist history on the part of The Blood Angels and/or another Imperial scholar. A situation were Necrons and BA would stop shooting at each other for a second and shoot at Tyranids isn't that improbable actually. The stupid part is the last line were the BAs find turning on the Nercons to be in poor taste. Why? Because Space Marines pride themselves on their hatred. The more hate they have the better. If you've got hate in your heart let it out! Hatred is their weapon and faith their sheild etc etc.
Well looks like this time they ran out of hate or more likely were merely fatigued and could not fight anymore due to casualties and logistical shortages. Mostly, The Blood Angels could not persecute this war any longer (especially not without getting their buts kicked). So like most a lot of nations have done before, they declared victory and went home. Afterwards, they're all like "Keep fighting the Necrons? No....uh...that would have been poor from haha" but really it was a strategic withdrawl in the face of a superior force.
Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.
It's been pointed out to me -- and correctly so -- that I opened this post with flamebait. Let me apologize for that. What I really mean is that a lot people started complaining for what seemed like the sake of complaining because they didn't manage to offer non-tautological reasons for their complaints ("I don't like it because it's bad."). And this wasn't the first time they had done so with regard to this particular author.
In my opinion, hating something without a coherent reason or, at least, stating publicly that you hate something without providing a coherent reason, are signs of immaturity. But I do acknowledge the sacred and inviolable right of others to disagree with that assessment and any other I might make.
But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.
To wit:
One of the main themes of the fluff in this latest book is that the GK fight daemons with sorcery. As one or another of them is quoted as saying, the GK don't have to suffer the criticism of anybody who thinks this is a contradiction. Now, is this a revision of previous fluff? Not at all! The closest we come is that GK refused to work with radical Inquisitors who included daemonhosts in their retinues. Fine. All this establishes is that GK don't trust anyone who is not a GK to do this kind of thing. And that's another one of their major themes. That one is heavily implied in the Daemonhunters book and now explicitly laid out in the new book: GK do things that other Imperial citizens are absolutely forbidden to do. Does any of this contradict previous fluff? Nope. That principle is at the very heart of the Inquisition fluff.
One of the purposes of this "fighting fire with fire" theme is to elicit horror. Accessing the power of the Warp is supposed to be really, really terrible. Nothing new here, either. And this reinforces the "GK are able to do what is forbidden to others" theme, given that wielding the Warp is actually a great burden and responsibility for them. It's so dangerous, in fact, that most Imperial citizens, even if they are utterly loyal, need to be executed or at least mindwiped if they become aware that the GK do this or even if they become aware of the very existence of the GK. More horror and nothing new. Indeed, the new book retells the infamous story of the purging of the victorious IG units after Angron was defeated at First Armageddon.
Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.
Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.
I just take great offense to your first paragraph. You open up a discussion by calling those you disagree with whiney sixteen year olds. You then later respond by adding somewhat of an apology in red font, but you didn't take the time to get rid of the flamebait. This is even worse because it is coming from a MOD. Maybe dakka should choose it's MODs with a little more care in the future. If you can't moderate your own choice of words, what right have you to moderate anyone else's?
Was it really necessary to quote the whole post without talking about any of its substance? The reason I didn't delete the offending portion is because I didn't want to "cover it up." Then people might respond to this thread complaining about me trying to hide a mistake instead of, you know, talking about the actual topic. But I suppose I wasn't being sensitive to those who would want the flamebait deleted in addition the apology and clarification. Personally, and seriuosly, I'm offended by your post so I think we'll call it even. I would be happy to hear you on-topic comments, however.
I think that while the quality of the writing is fairly mediocre (but in fairness, that is true of all the GW background stuff I've read in the various codices - and in fact most games-related writing is average in terms of quality at best because it's generally written in some haste and by people who have other things to to in their jobs than merely write fiction), it's consistent in style with the bulk of GW background fiction (or 'fluff' as I understand we are to call it nowadays).
So it's perfectly acceptable to dislike the style that Ward uses, but really that needs applied to all GW writers -- he doesn't deserve singling out on that score.
As regards the actual content, I think the nub is that some people want to play the good guys, and that GW have implied in the past that the GK were, whereas in fact it turns out that they're about as morally ambiguous as every other army on the side of the Imperium (the other races being as bad or worse). But I think it unlikely Ward made that decision all on his lonesome -- and even if he did, it still would need the GW stamp of approval. So, again in fairness, if you don't like morally ambiguous GK, your ire should be directed at GW in general, or at least its senior decision makers, rather than Ward alone. He may be one of the decision makers but I suspect he's actually only following orders.
Personally I prefer the GK as a rather sinister force for 'good' (I think the clue is that they weren't called White Knights), but I do sympathise with those who wanted at least one army that behave 'decently' (though I do think 40K is the wrong universe for that).
1.Daemons (40K and Fantasy)
2.Vanilla SM 3.Blood Angels
4.Grey Knights
Perhaps if you're going to do Blood Angels next, you could start an 'Understanding the commonly misconstrued fluff of Matt Ward' thread or Article.
A labour of love.
Did he write Daemons in 40K? I thought they were written by someone with a name I can never pronounce, I want to say Torquemonda but I'm pretty sure that's wrong... I've heard tales that he did something bad to Daemons in Fantasy, but having never played it I can't comment.
Vanilla SM were fine, though I'm still annoyed at them being immune to the thing that cripples my beloved 'Crons the most. BA... a lot of people talk about bloodfists etc, and I've joked about it, but in all honesty I didn't have too many problems, apart from the fist-bumping 'Crons.
And then, of course, GK. After doing English Literature for 3 years and ruining books by looking deeper into the meanings, I'm of the opinion that generally an author isn't actually thinking about their meanings, they're just trying to tell a story, which is exactly what I think Ward is doing. His writing comes across as just a little bit immature, almost like he thinks that the 40K fluff universe is his own personal playground and that everything must be more and more awsums because it makes the others seem more desperate, or something like that. I mean, he writes Blood Angels, makes them epicz, then writes a bit into GK where the BA ask for help and allow themselves to be mindwiped. I don't really see how any Marine could unwind their pride enough to actually allow a mindwipe to occur.
I don't hate Matt Ward, I don't hate the fiction that is the 40k universe,
I do have to double take when, in a world of already inconsistent and poor writing, essential themes are poorly handled. Even in what is essentially a by-line piece.
The GK codex isn't bad, the fluff in it isn't terribad, and I do understand GW's need to jazz up their latest codex release for their current market.
But for me Bloodtide was a let down. So was Draigos tale of adventure (TM). But over the course of the codex there wasn't much else to hate.
I still don't understand BA and Crons VS the nids aftermath, a warriors code tale would be more suited to The Wolves (and has been explained quite well regarding Armageddon and the short story in tales of heresy?). But this was only a side bar piece so I can forgive it.
To my mind then:
Matt Ward and his staff, letting themselves down, occasionally.
augustus5 wrote:
I just take great offense to your first paragraph. You open up a discussion by calling those you disagree with whiney sixteen year olds. You then later respond by adding somewhat of an apology in red font, but you didn't take the time to get rid of the flamebait. This is even worse because it is coming from a MOD. Maybe dakka should choose it's MODs with a little more care in the future. If you can't moderate your own choice of words, what right have you to moderate anyone else's?
Gotta agree with this, even if the mod himself thinks its offensive (lolwat?).
There really was no need to highlight the radical side of the GKs. They were already 'grey' enough, what with their propensity to kill the witnesses and their inevitable study of warp artifacts.They could very well be 'puritan' and still be ruthless and grimdark enough for everyone.
The 'radical' SM chapter slot was already occupied by the Relictors, and the increased 'radicalisation' of the GKs only makes that interesting and promising chapter redundant.
Basically, without Ward's fluff, we could have a 'puritan' chapter (the GKs) and a 'radical' one (the Relictors), to go with the original Puritan/Radical split in the Inquisition. SM players would have two different flavours of 'the ends justify the means'. Now we only have the radical flavour.
Frankly, the Grey Knights are no longer grey, but pitch black. And this is boring.
The Bloodtide scene is crap, like something out of a Cradle of Filth song. Yeah, the GKs can be utterly ruthless, that's nothing new, now could you find a less rubbish way to convey this? No need for anything fancy, the regular Wh40k B-horror movie level will do just fine.
And Draigo writing his predecessor's name on Mortarion's heart is even worse. I can forgive this scene how it invalidates, or at least complicates, Typhus's fluff. But I can't forgive it how it shows a Space Marine humiliating a Primarch, and a Daemon Primarch at that. Aurelian and a hundred GK termies found their doom in banishing Angron. Yet Draigo is basically Nelson to Mortarion's Milhouse.
xcasex wrote:I distinctly recall some early fluff about the GK's think it was pre-2ed.
They definetly never were good, good guys. they're indiscriminate in how they work to purge the taint.
(the story itself, centered around an imperial planetary commander, who dealt with tzeentch and was lured, so his little helper had by some odd way of communicating gotten the word to the GKs who teleported in and the story ended with them, well. Killing everything.)
Wasn't that not Captain Stern.
From what I remebe Stern and his retinue teleported into the main chambers bolters blazing killing all but the governer, this was strange as he had take several shots himself. Then he started laughing and then transformed in the Lord of Change that is Stern's nemesis.
@ Visitor13
They were always called the Grey Knights implying they were not the Holier than Thou people they appear to be.
The complaint thta only one SM chapter can fill the grey slot is bogus, when you have 1,000 chapters more than one is going to fall into that category but GW has only highlighted the relictors because they will probaly turn in the CSM codex or SM codex.
@ Visitor13
They were always called the Grey Knights implying they were not the Holier than Thou people they appear to be.
Where did I say they were "Holier Than Thou"?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: The complaint thta only one SM chapter can fill the grey slot is bogus, when you have 1,000 chapters more than one is going to fall into that category but GW has only highlighted the relictors because they will probaly turn in the CSM codex or SM codex.
I meant to say there should be a balance between the 'puritan' and the 'radical' branch in terms of SM chapters. Now we have at least two (three with the Exorcists?) chapters in the 'radical' category and none (known) in the 'puritan' one. And both categories actually qualify as 'grey', since both puritans and radicals are essentially very nasty people. But the manner in which the radical aspect of the GKs is now stressed is so clumsy (we can be evil enough to BATHE IN THE BLOOD OF INNOCENT VIRGINS RARRR) that they come off as far more black than grey.
I'm not a fan of a lot of the more recent Imperial fluff. I don't think Matt Ward is particularly to blame, but there has been a definite trend towards casting the Imperium as mighty heroes. I've been an Imperial player since I was 15 and the main draw to me was the fact that they were set up to lose. To me, Space Marines were a crumbling network of psychotic warbands who, despite being genetically modified to be monstrous inhumans, still had a a tough time holding off the forces of an unbelievably cruel galaxy. Anyone who tells me that grimdark in 40K is a new thing will have a tough time of it convincing me.
Now, I've read the 5th ed. Space Marines codex, and I've read bits and pieces of the Grey Knights codex and I feel a distinct trend towards Marines being full of epic individuals and titanic heroes. It just doesn't feel like the 40K universe I grew up with. Draigo is a good example of this, for me. I'm not a huge fan of the blood-tide bit either, it feels off in a way that I can't quite vocalise.
Oh, and for the record. I'm new to Dakka Dakka, but I've popped around various forums for quite some time. I was geniunely shocked to see the MOD tag next to the OP's name after reading the first paragraph. It contained an amount of vitriol I have never seen expressed by a Mod on any forum. Saying you are offended by someone criticising your actions as representative of your Mod status is not a defence for violating the forum rules it is your position to uphold. I read the rules before I posted. Be polite.
I'm 27 by the way, and at heart I'm a crotchety old man. I agree that there is a lot of over-the-top reactionism towards some of Ward's more... enthusiatic writing, but I'm sticking with my absolutely subjective opinion that the current fluff is just not as good as it used to be.
htj wrote:I'm not a fan of a lot of the more recent Imperial fluff. I don't think Matt Ward is particularly to blame, but there has been a definite trend towards casting the Imperium as mighty heroes. I've been an Imperial player since I was 15 and the main draw to me was the fact that they were set up to lose. To me, Space Marines were a crumbling network of psychotic warbands who, despite being genetically modified to be monstrous inhumans, still had a a tough time holding off the forces of an unbelievably cruel galaxy. Anyone who tells me that grimdark in 40K is a new thing will have a tough time of it convincing me.
Now, I've read the 5th ed. Space Marines codex, and I've read bits and pieces of the Grey Knights codex and I feel a distinct trend towards Marines being full of epic individuals and titanic heroes. It just doesn't feel like the 40K universe I grew up with. Draigo is a good example of this, for me. I'm not a huge fan of the blood-tide bit either, it feels off in a way that I can't quite vocalise.
I hate to tell you but the Marines have pretty much , at least since their revision from just being "guys in armor" to the genetically engineered superhumans they are now, always had "epic individuals and titanic heroes".
The whole point of the Astartes is that they're the demigods of the Imperium. They're aloof and as far from human as any one of the demigods of myth were.
Oh, and for the record. I'm new to Dakka Dakka, but I've popped around various forums for quite some time. I was geniunely shocked to see the MOD tag next to the OP's name after reading the first paragraph. It contained an amount of vitriol I have never seen expressed by a Mod on any forum. Saying you are offended by someone criticising your actions as representative of your Mod status is not a defence for violating the forum rules it is your position to uphold. I read the rules before I posted. Be polite.
Quite frankly, Manchu's not gone really 'overboard' in any case. People whine far too much about Mat Ward's writing style.
He's not Shakespeare, but at the same time in cases like Draigo it's far less over the top if people would sit down at their FLGS, shut up for awhile and take the time to actually read the fluff rather than rely on second or third hand accounts.
I'm 27 by the way, and at heart I'm a crotchety old man. I agree that there is a lot of over-the-top reactionism towards some of Ward's more... enthusiatic writing, but I'm sticking with my absolutely subjective opinion that the current fluff is just not as good as it used to be.
At the same time, while the "current fluff is just not as good as it used to be"...it's becoming much deeper in places.
The Grey Knights used to have the equivalent of a kiddy pool describing how they were organized or how they operated or any number of things.
We've gone from a kiddy pool to a full-sized, in-ground swimming pool.
Of course, after you go from that it becomes a bit easier to notice the warm spots in the pool
Ah, yes. I think it's the fact they killed space nuns that has everyone in a tiz... had it been a chapter of space marines that the GK killed members of, nobody would have batted an eye. But space nuns in their FMB's and power-bondage corsets must be untouchable simply because they are somehow deemed 'innocent' (as Gene Hackman says in Unforgiven, 'Innocent of what?').
I agree that the story itself is kind of overblown tosh, but then so is almost all GW background material. As I say, I understand if it doesn't fit with what people would like, but I'm not really convinced myself that it's so terrible a thing in 40K universe terms.
Artemo wrote:Ah, yes. I think it's the fact they killed space nuns that has everyone in a tiz... .
I think it's more the whole 'bathing in blood' thing. It's ok for the GKs to be doing some pretty nasty stuff, but it really does not have to be same stuff the Word Bearers and the Emperor's Children do on a slow day.
Bathing in blood, being 'ritually anointed' with it, whatever, they got their blood onto their armour (probably while intoning some occult BS). Same kind of ridiculous, cheesy, EVUL thing.
Kanluwen wrote:I hate to tell you but the Marines have pretty much , at least since their revision from just being "guys in armor" to the genetically engineered superhumans they are now, always had "epic individuals and titanic heroes".
The whole point of the Astartes is that they're the demigods of the Imperium. They're aloof and as far from human as any one of the demigods of myth were.
Sure, they had powerful individuals, but it's the way they're written now that gets to me. It feels more like they're omigosh so awesome!, the fluff seems almost breathless in its praise for them. I'm not against over-the-top events, I wouldn't be interested in 40K if I were. It's over-the-top writing that I dislike. Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm finding it tricky to explain.
Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, Manchu's not gone really 'overboard' in any case. People whine far too much about Mat Ward's writing style.
He's not Shakespeare, but at the same time in cases like Draigo it's far less over the top if people would sit down at their FLGS, shut up for awhile and take the time to actually read the fluff rather than rely on second or third hand accounts.
It was the comment about whining from sixteen year olds and people with the hearts of sixteen year olds that I was shocked by. This is the kind of comment I would expect a Mod to come down on, not make. The rest of the post was well written and presented, a refreshing counterpoint to the blind Ward-hate that is prevalent on the forums, but it was marred by this hostile beginning. I'm not going to cast aspersions on Manchu's modding as a whole, I'm not familiar with it enough, but I feel justified in criticising his approach and reaction to criticism here. I don't know, maybe I take Modding too seriously, but I believe that in order to maintain authority against those who make hostile comments a Mod should refrain from doing so themselves. I respect Manchu's choice to leave the comment there, though, it seems an honourable thing to do.
Kanluwen wrote:
At the same time, while the "current fluff is just not as good as it used to be"...it's becoming much deeper in places.
The Grey Knights used to have the equivalent of a kiddy pool describing how they were organized or how they operated or any number of things.
We've gone from a kiddy pool to a full-sized, in-ground swimming pool.
Of course, after you go from that it becomes a bit easier to notice the warm spots in the pool
Oh, absolutely it's getting deeper. And the more you produce, the more likely there'll be more glaring examples of bad fluff. Personally, I prefered the universe when there was more mystery to it, but that's just me. Kiddy pool and olympic size? Perhaps. I prefer the comparison between haut cuisine and Hungry Horse.
I'm pretty surprised to see that people are so offended by the association of immaturity with a certain age. An age traditionally associated with immaturity. In all honesty, there's nothing defensible about maintaining that you absolutely hate a certain set of stories, that these stories are anathema to everything that 40k is "really about," that a single writer is completely incompetent and useless -- all without giving any coherent reasons for these things. And sometimes I even read people admitting to not having actually read the stuff they are so absolutely disgusted with. Amazing.
So it's not really the case that I'm dismissing the possibility that the Bloodtide story might not be good. Rather I'm dismissing the possibility that the hate has really been accounted for on the part of the haters. My contention is that a lot of posters are just going along with a general current in order to appear witty and insightful. My further contention is that, whether or not they are witty, they're certainly not insightful. Insight is expressed by analysis. Where I failed was in attempting to write about this in a pithy way rather than carefully and neutrally explaining just how dumb the Ward-hate appears.
Now, I've heard a lot of fluff arguments over my time at Dakka that begin with "To me, 40k is . . ." That's not a very good argument for why something is not good. Again, there is a difference between not liking something and something not being good. For example, I may not like Thomas Kincaid paintings but it's not because they are technically deficient. To the extent that one of his cottage landscapes is a "bad painting," it's bad because I don't like it. It doesn't fit with what I personally want to hang on my walls. And that's fine. But it doesn't mean a thing with regard to the actual quality of the painting on its own terms. It's supposed to be a sappy, comforting scene.
Similarly, 40k is and has always been completely OTT. Matt Ward is perfectly in tune with that. As I have demonstrated, his fluff writing is internally consistent as to itself and consistent with what has been written in the past. If you don't like it, fine. No one has the right to tell you that you should like it. And you are entirely free to hold opinions that have no basis in reason.
Now, on to some interesting points:
Visitor13 wrote:There really was no need to highlight the radical side of the GKs. They were already 'grey' enough, what with their propensity to kill the witnesses and their inevitable study of warp artifacts.They could very well be 'puritan' and still be ruthless and grimdark enough for everyone.
The GK were not depicted as Puritans in C: DH. At best, that is an inference drawn from not being able to use Daemonhosts in your Inquisitor retinues when you took GKs. But, as I've already explained, all this really means is that GKs either (or both) don't like daemonhosts or don't trust anyone other than GK to turn the enemies' weapons upon them. Now, are you arguing that the GK should have been portrayed as Puritans for the sake of some extremely minor SM chapter? I certainly understand your point. The Relictors already had a character with a daemon sword. But I just don't see why a major faction with its own dex should be bothered about not stepping on the toes of a minor SM chapter. To me, it's like saying the technical expertise of the Tau shouldn't be played up because that's the Jokaeros' shtick.
In any case, your point is actually really interesting to me. It highlights another theme of the GK -- namely that while they are explicitly a part of the Inquisition, they seem to transcend these kind of debates. GKs are above being declared Radical and need not strive to appear Puritanical. I think this is even mentioned with regard to the feud between Valeria and Darkhammer.
Visitor13 wrote:Bathing in blood, being 'ritually anointed' with it, whatever, they got their blood onto their armour (probably while intoning some occult BS). Same kind of ridiculous, cheesy, EVUL thing.
So you're saying that when you're baptized by a priest or given a dab of holy water when receiving a blessing it's a "ridiculous, cheesy, EVUL thing"?
Because that, in all honesty, is likely what happened.
Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.
And perhaps us 'whiners' are sick to the back teeth of the butt loving that the Matt Ward fans are giving his clearly bad Grey Knight fluff. Which, yeah, is cleary bad.
Manchu wrote:But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.
No, no it doesn't. The story makes sense agreed, but that is not what I disagree with. It's the act itself. Not once have I seen this mentioned before. In the previous Grey Knight Index Astartes articles, any background story, codex nor Black Library publication that I have read before. Now it might be out there somewhere, but I have not come across an instance of this. Oh, there is one instance that I can think of, that just happens to tie in nicely with the release of the new Codex, Sacrifice in the Victories anthology. Nice save there by the way Mr. Counter
Manchu wrote:Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.
I don't like the story and it is stupid. The story makes sense, but it is something that the Grey Knights wouldn't do, as they wouldn't need to sacrifice the Sisters. Matt Ward might have done a good job in your opinion in mine and many others he did not.
oh yeah and 'waaahh, you hate Ward so you hate GW' gimme a break. It's because I am a fan of GW that I even comment, I love the hobby and the background.
Kanluwen wrote:I hate to tell you but the Marines have pretty much , at least since their revision from just being "guys in armor" to the genetically engineered superhumans they are now, always had "epic individuals and titanic heroes".
The whole point of the Astartes is that they're the demigods of the Imperium. They're aloof and as far from human as any one of the demigods of myth were.
Sure, they had powerful individuals, but it's the way they're written now that gets to me. It feels more like they're omigosh so awesome!, the fluff seems almost breathless in its praise for them. I'm not against over-the-top events, I wouldn't be interested in 40K if I were. It's over-the-top writing that I dislike. Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm finding it tricky to explain.
No, I get you entirely. But the problem is always that when you punch down to it: there's just not a good way to stress how absurdly 'not human' that the Astartes and their ilk are without starting to stray into over-the-top writing.
Because you either have to make Astartes heroic examples, shining beacons of valor defending mankind--or heartless and callous bastards who only intervene on mankind's behalf because of the fact that it means they get to kill.
Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, Manchu's not gone really 'overboard' in any case. People whine far too much about Mat Ward's writing style.
He's not Shakespeare, but at the same time in cases like Draigo it's far less over the top if people would sit down at their FLGS, shut up for awhile and take the time to actually read the fluff rather than rely on second or third hand accounts.
It was the comment about whining from sixteen year olds and people with the hearts of sixteen year olds that I was shocked by.
He wasn't really saying that it was "whining from 16-year-olds", but rather that it was "whining like sixteen year olds".
They may sound similar, but when it comes down to it: teenagers complain. Alot. About pretty much anything and everything they possibly can.
This is the kind of comment I would expect a Mod to come down on, not make. The rest of the post was well written and presented, a refreshing counterpoint to the blind Ward-hate that is prevalent on the forums, but it was marred by this hostile beginning.
It really wasn't that 'hostile'. It was more condemning of the whole attitude than anything else. There's been an ungodly amount of threads relating to various parts of the Grey Knights Codex, and almost all of them deal with some variation "Well I heard from my buddy Joe that this and then this and then this happens. WTFGW!".
It's also important to remember that while they might have that 'mod' tag on their name--they're still just posters like you or I unless they post like this .
When the red text comes out: they're acting official. Otherwise, they're just Joe Schmoe.
Kanluwen wrote:
At the same time, while the "current fluff is just not as good as it used to be"...it's becoming much deeper in places.
The Grey Knights used to have the equivalent of a kiddy pool describing how they were organized or how they operated or any number of things.
We've gone from a kiddy pool to a full-sized, in-ground swimming pool.
Of course, after you go from that it becomes a bit easier to notice the warm spots in the pool
Oh, absolutely it's getting deeper. And the more you produce, the more likely there'll be more glaring examples of bad fluff. Personally, I prefered the universe when there was more mystery to it, but that's just me. Kiddy pool and olympic size? Perhaps. I prefer the comparison between haut cuisine and Hungry Horse.
The biggest problem with "more glaring examples of bad fluff" will also almost always be coming from when we do not actually have any fluff to go on to compare it to.
@Pilau Rice: The Bloodtide story is about a specific example of how the GK use the tools of the daemonic against the daemonic. Obviously, every story will not be about the same specific example.
@Visitor13: Oh and weren't the Soul Drinkers around before the Relictors?
The statement came across like a sweeping brush implying immaturity in anyone who doesn't like Matt Ward's fluff and it coloured the reading over the rest of the post. That's the only reason I balked at it, but I can't speak for others. I understand now that that wasn't your intention, and that it was intended as humourous. Perhaps this isn't the first time a statement intended as humour has been misinterpreted on the internet? Nah, doesn't seem likely.
I think that most people, when they approach something that they don't like, will call it bad. With something as subjective as the feeling you get from a background, if something feels jarringly out of place then, yeah, most people will consider it 'bad' in that it doesn't work in what they consider the setting to be. If we're talking pure technically ability, well, the man can clearly type and make himself understood. So I guess if that's the question then, sure, Ward's fluff is good fluff.
Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.
And perhaps us 'whiners' are sick to the back teeth of the butt loving that the Matt Ward fans are giving his clearly bad Grey Knight fluff. Which, yeah, is cleary bad.
Let's see you write better fluff.
Spoiler:
I don't think you can. You can't even spell 'clearly' right.
Manchu wrote:But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.
No, no it doesn't. The story makes sense agreed, but that is not what I disagree with. It's the act itself. Not once have I seen this mentioned before. In the previous Grey Knight Index Astartes articles, any background story, codex nor Black Library publication that I have read before. Now it might be out there somewhere, but I have not come across an instance of this. Oh, there is one instance that I can think of, that just happens to tie in nicely with the release of the new Codex, Sacrifice in the Victories anthology. Nice save there by the way Mr. Counter
The "previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article" was just that: the 'previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article'.
It was dealing with an organization that, at the time, had only three solid tenants that were laid down: they fought Daemons, they wore Aegis armor and used Nemesis weapons, and they were based on the moon Titan.
Manchu wrote:Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.
I don't like the story and it is stupid. The story makes sense, but it is something that the Grey Knights wouldn't do, as they wouldn't need to sacrifice the Sisters.
So what would the Grey Knights do? "Welp, we can't get to the Daemon--time for a beer break".
Matt Ward might have done a good job in your opinion in mine and many others he did not.
"The many others" whose opinions have been pushed about this topic have majorly admitted to never actually reading the story.
They don't even bloody read the thing when it's been posted as a straight scan by posters on here.
oh yeah and 'waaahh, you hate Ward so you hate GW' gimme a break. It's because I am a fan of GW that I even comment, I love the hobby and the background.
Considering most of the posts don't even come down to "I hate this story because it ruins my view of the Grey Knights" but rather "I hate this story because Games Workshop is stupid", his point is pretty valid.
And as a sidenote?
It's pretty ridiculous that people complain more about the price of the models than the story.
@htj: It's a bit more than that. He's clearly much more familiar with the 40k background than 99% of all Dakka posters and carefully identified and carried on the core themes of the GK fluff while, as Kanluwen points out, taking it from two pages to about twenty.
Manchu wrote:@Pilau Rice: The Bloodtide story is about a specific example of how the GK use the tools of the daemonic against the daemonic. Obviously, every story will not be about the same specific example.
My point is that it had never been necessary before when fighting the Daemonic in any other story. Perhaps that's because they hadn't come across it before. But according the their back ground thety already had enough to deal with any situation involving the daemon.
It's just an unneccesary story to make them seem more extreme and super bad ass than they were before.
Manchu wrote:@Pilau Rice: The Bloodtide story is about a specific example of how the GK use the tools of the daemonic against the daemonic. Obviously, every story will not be about the same specific example.
My point is that it had never been necessary before when fighting the Daemonic in any other story. Perhaps that's because they hadn't come across it before. But according the their back ground they already had enough to deal with any situation involving the daemon.
Eh?
In the background they'd also had 'sacred unguents' that they applied to their armor 'in arcane rituals' to prevent them from being affected by most forms of Daemonic influence, from the average Daemon they'd encounter.
A Daemon that was powerful enough to:
1) Materialize itself within real-space, with no summoning required
2) Corrupt an entire Hive City within moments of its awakening
3) Effectively open Warp Rifts within the confines of sanctified ground
is so far beyond 'the average Daemon they'd encounter' that it makes sense that they would effectively hit the 'Oh gak' button and go to drastic measures.
It's just an unnecessary story to make them seem more extreme and super bad ass than they were before.
It's also a 'story' that is all of three or four paragraphs and really a brief overview of a situation that enveloped an entire planet.
Pilau Rice wrote:My point is that it had never been necessary before when fighting the Daemonic in any other story. Perhaps that's because they hadn't come across it before. But according the their back ground thety already had enough to deal with any situation involving the daemon.
That argument would be valid if we had an exhaustive list of the ways with which GK deal with daemons. As it stood, we had two pages fro C: DH, a White Dwarf Article (that they shared with the Death Watch), and Ben Counter's novels about one particular group.
Wouldn't want to do GW writers job now for them would I, not without payment anyway
Kanluwen wrote:I don't think you can. You can't even spell 'clearly' right.
Oh no, I forgot an 'L' my posting on forum days are over ...
I think I could though, if I got someone to type it for me, do you want to be my typist Kan?
Kanluwen wrote:The "previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article" was just that: the 'previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article'.
It was dealing with an organization that, at the time, had only three solid tenants that were laid down: they fought Daemons, they wore Aegis armor and used Nemesis weapons, and they were based on the moon Titan.
And whats wrong with that, or the Black Library stories or other background stories there have been? Not all of the codex, but the certain ones that haev been commented on ARE
that bad and are unneccessary.
Kanluwen wrote:So what would the Grey Knights do? "Welp, we can't get to the Daemon--time for a beer break".
Err, I dunno Kan, maybe use some of that awesome psychic power to put up some sort of super dooper daemon stopping power faith barrier? Or even teleport off the planet, save the sisters and kill the Bad guys by Exterminatus? James Bond style. See, there is my amazing fluff skills showing.
Kanluwen wrote:"The many others" whose opinions have been pushed about this topic have majorly admitted to never actually reading the story.
They don't even bloody read the thing when it's been posted as a straight scan by posters on here.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering most of the posts don't even come down to "I hate this story because it ruins my view of the Grey Knights" but rather "I hate this story because Games Workshop is stupid", his point is pretty valid.
And they shouldn't just jump on the band wagon agreed
Manchu wrote:That argument would be valid if we had an exhaustive list of the ways with which GK deal with daemons. As it stood, we had two pages fro C: DH, a White Dwarf Article (that they shared with the Death Watch), and Ben Counter's novels about one particular group.
The argument is valid, thats a fair bit of background when you consider someone like the Iron Hands who have very little.
Hmm, First war of Armageddon also springs to mind, which was a major daemonic incursion
Anyway, i've said my piece, given the reasons why I don't like it and backed it up where I can. You can't change my opinon of it the same way I couldn't change yours, I'm hungry now and, although I'm sure this will continue, will be ducking out for a nice Steak and Chips. OOh, post 500
Matt Ward's fluff is not fine! He completely disregarded the Sisters of Battle's fluff when he mention some of the Sisters became corrupted from the Bloodtide.
"A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors." - Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition
If he ever writes Codex Sisters of Battle, he better redeem himself by inserting a story where Sisters torches an army of daemonically possessed Grey Knights!
Wouldn't want to do GW writers job now for them would I, not without payment anyway
Kanluwen wrote:I don't think you can. You can't even spell 'clearly' right.
Oh no, I forgot an 'L' my posting on forum days are over ...
I think I could though, if I got someone to type it for me, do you want to be my typist Kan?
Not unless I'm paid!
Kanluwen wrote:The "previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article" was just that: the 'previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article'.
It was dealing with an organization that, at the time, had only three solid tenants that were laid down: they fought Daemons, they wore Aegis armor and used Nemesis weapons, and they were based on the moon Titan.
And whats wrong with that, or the Black Library stories or other background stories there have been? Not all of the codex, but the certain ones that haev been commented on ARE
that bad and are unneccessary.
Because, at best, there was no real actual content within those sources.
We learned absolutely nothing actually useful about the Grey Knights from the "Grey Knights" novels by Ben Counter.
Kanluwen wrote:So what would the Grey Knights do? "Welp, we can't get to the Daemon--time for a beer break".
Err, I dunno Kan, maybe use some of that awesome psychic power to put up some sort of super dooper daemon stopping power faith barrier? Or even teleport off the planet, save the sisters and kill the Bad guys by Exterminatus? James Bond style. See, there is my amazing fluff skills showing.
Exterminatus on a Shrineworld? Yeah...that won't happen I'd suggest you read "Cadian Blood" by Aaron Dembski-Bowden to give you an idea as to the kinds of hand-tying that goes on when reclaiming Shrineworlds.
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything, since they were fighting a Bloodthirster and other Khornate Daemons. A very angry and ancient Bloodthirster that had spent quite a long time imprisoned in a stasis field, specifically so that he could not retreat to the Warp.
Kanluwen wrote:"The many others" whose opinions have been pushed about this topic have majorly admitted to never actually reading the story.
They don't even bloody read the thing when it's been posted as a straight scan by posters on here.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering most of the posts don't even come down to "I hate this story because it ruins my view of the Grey Knights" but rather "I hate this story because Games Workshop is stupid", his point is pretty valid.
And they shouldn't just jump on the band wagon agreed
And yet, it's the most popular thing to happen on forums. That's really what Manchu seems to be railing at.
Manchu wrote:That argument would be valid if we had an exhaustive list of the ways with which GK deal with daemons. As it stood, we had two pages fro C: DH, a White Dwarf Article (that they shared with the Death Watch), and Ben Counter's novels about one particular group.
The argument is valid, that's a fair bit of background when you consider someone like the Iron Hands who have very little.
The Iron Hands, while having 'very little' fluff--have fluff about the important parts. Their temperament, the way they're organized, how they fight, etc.
Hmm, First war of Armageddon also springs to mind, which was a major daemonic incursion
The First War of Armageddon was also against Angron and his 'warhost' gifted to him by Khorne, where the Grey Knights fought as part of a whole 'force' not by themselves.
The Grey Knights in the 'Bloodtide' anecdote were by themselves, exceeding a small amount of 'uncorrupted Sisters'.
When it comes down to it, it was a case of 'Needs must, when the Devil's behind the wheel' and Sisters and the population of a Shrineworld are replaceable.
Kanluwen wrote:
Because, at best, there was no real actual content within those sources.
We learned absolutely nothing actually useful about the Grey Knights from the "Grey Knights" novels by Ben Counter.
A whole series about Grey Knights not being useful ... well I be jiggered ..
Kanluwen wrote:
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything, since they were fighting a Bloodthirster and other Khornate Daemons. A very angry and ancient Bloodthirster that had spent quite a long time imprisoned in a stasis field, specifically so that he could not retreat to the Warp.
Where was Draigo when they needed him eh? Oh no i mentioned the other thing in the Codex that people really don't like Still doesn't make it good Kan, they knew what they were getting into. The Blood Tide has been mentioned before in other fluff, the Grey Knights know the Daemon and all things Daemonic. Maybe they will start carrying a load of Sisters around in cages just in case
Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands, while having 'very little' fluff--have fluff about the important parts. Their temperament, the way they're organized, how they fight, etc.
And the Index Astartes is just that, a summary of the Grey Knights. It basically says that they are the best thing against Daemons, live on Titan and that their harder than hard. The Iron Hands pretty much only have the IA article.
Kanluwen wrote:
The Grey Knights in the 'Bloodtide' anecdote were by themselves, exceeding a small amount of 'uncorrupted Sisters'.
When it comes down to it, it was a case of 'Needs must, when the Devil's behind the wheel' and Sisters and the population of a Shrineworld are replaceable.
Manchu wrote:@htj: It's a bit more than that. He's clearly much more familiar with the 40k background than 99% of all Dakka posters and carefully identified and carried on the core themes of the GK fluff while, as Kanluwen points out, taking it from two pages to about twenty.
I'm not sure that I'd agree that he identified and carried on the core themes, but that's a matter that could roll around in debate forever, and would I think. Otherwise, you make a fair point. I'm gonna dip out now, because this is getting hotter and hotter and I suspect you might need to break out the red ink soon. Best if I don't make too many enemies after I just got here.
htj wrote:I'm gonna dip out now, because this is getting hotter and hotter and I suspect you might need to break out the red ink soon. Best if I don't make too many enemies after I just got here.
No don't, stay! They'll bring out the cake of calming soon
Kanluwen wrote:
Because, at best, there was no real actual content within those sources.
We learned absolutely nothing actually useful about the Grey Knights from the "Grey Knights" novels by Ben Counter.
A whole series about Grey Knights not being useful ... well I be jiggered ..
For giving us the insight of Alaric's Grey Knight squad? It was useful.
For actually figuring out anything, whatsoever about the Grey Knights as a whole? It tells us nothing.
Just like how "Gaunt's Ghosts" doesn't give us insight into the Cadian Regiments.
Kanluwen wrote:
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything, since they were fighting a Bloodthirster and other Khornate Daemons. A very angry and ancient Bloodthirster that had spent quite a long time imprisoned in a stasis field, specifically so that he could not retreat to the Warp.
Where was Draigo when they needed him eh? Oh no i mentioned the other thing in the Codex that people really don't like Still doesn't make it good Kan, they knew what they were getting into. The Blood Tide has been mentioned before in other fluff, the Grey Knights know the Daemon and all things Daemonic. Maybe they will start carrying a load of Sisters around in cages just in case
The Bloodtide has been mentioned before in other fluff--but never in any depth.
It was the creation of Andy Hoare, featuring in "The Hunt for Voldorius" where Voldorius "attempted to awaken the Bloodtide".
The only other mention is a sentence long in the main rulebook.
As for Draigo: he's becoming like the Green Knight of Bretonnia. He shows up "when things are most dire".
Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands, while having 'very little' fluff--have fluff about the important parts. Their temperament, the way they're organized, how they fight, etc.
And the Index Astartes is just that, a summary of the Grey Knights. It basically says that they are the best thing against Daemons, live on Titan and that they're harder than hard. The Iron Hands pretty much only have the IA article.
The Iron Hands actually have more than just that. They've been given a fairly decent exposition, and much more specifics of them are given than we saw of the Grey Knights.
We knew that they were organized into Clans, we knew that they're heavily into bionics and self-mutilation to attach those, field many Dreadnoughts and Masters of the Forge, etc.
Some of that, however, comes out of the information about their Successor Chapters such as the 'Sons of Medusa'.
The Deathwatch and Grey Knights both had very very little actual 'solid' facts about them. That's being altered now, and things are going to hurt while the changes come.
Kanluwen wrote:
The Grey Knights in the 'Bloodtide' anecdote were by themselves, exceeding a small amount of 'uncorrupted Sisters'.
When it comes down to it, it was a case of 'Needs must, when the Devil's behind the wheel' and Sisters and the population of a Shrineworld are replaceable.
Yeah, still not convinced.
But you said as much that "you're not going to be convinced", no matter what gets put in front of you.
Putting it simply, people need to learn this fact:
The Grey Knights and the Inquisition will never be shining paragons of humanity and virtue, they will always be those who do what they must to prevent Mankind from falling into an orgy of destruction.
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything,
This trio of librarians didn't push back the bloodtide ? Seems the power of the GK does something, without the desecration of their heraldry....
The whole "blood of the innocent" is all about 100% protection, not taking risks. A bit different to neccessary evil. The psykers would have done their job even in danger as GK know they may die unremembered.
Kanluwen wrote:
The Iron Hands actually have more than just that. They've been given a fairly decent exposition, and much more specifics of them are given than we saw of the Grey Knights.
We knew that they were organized into Clans, we knew that they're heavily into bionics and self-mutilation to attach those, field many Dreadnoughts and Masters of the Forge, etc.
Some of that, however, comes out of the information about their Successor Chapters such as the 'Sons of Medusa'.
And the Grey Knights article gave you pretty much everything there was on them. There aren't that many of them and they are a secretive bunch so, you know, the article was much shorter
Kanluwen wrote:
Putting it simply, people need to learn this fact:
The Grey Knights and the Inquisition will never be shining paragons of humanity and virtue, they will always be those who do what they must to prevent Mankind from falling into an orgy of destruction.
This is true of the Inquisiton and I whole heartedly agree with you here.
But this was not entirely true of the older Grey Knights, the sterilisation, incarceration or murder of populations is a necessary evil to keep the taint of chaos at bay and prevent it from spreading. But other than this they were the embodiment of the ideals of the Emperor and purer than pure.
I don't like the New Grey Knights Kan, and I don't think I will. But your right now, and what you say is true. I'm not admittiing defeat at all in our disagreement, but the new fluff is fluff and that's the way it is. Like it or lump it.
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything,
This trio of librarians didn't push back the bloodtide ? Seems the power of the GK does something, without the desecration of their heraldry....
It might do something against the Bloodtide, but it likely wouldn't do anything against the Bloodthirster himself
The whole "blood of the innocent" is all about 100% protection, not taking risks. A bit different to necessary evil. The psykers would have done their job even in danger as GK know they may die unremembered.
I bolded the part that makes it a 'necessary evil'.
The psykers may have done their job even in danger, but the fact that they needed to survive the encounter means that them anointing their wargear with the blood of the pure innocent is a 'necessary evil'.
Pilau Rice wrote:This is true of the Inquisition and I whole heartedly agree with you here.
But this was not entirely true of the older Grey Knights, the sterilisation, incarceration or murder of populations is a necessary evil to keep the taint of chaos at bay and prevent it from spreading.
But the fact of the matter is that the Grey Knights are part of the Inquisition. When it comes down to it, the Ordo Malleus does not feth around when it comes to the daemonic.
But other than this they were the embodiment of the ideals of the Emperor and purer than pure.
And with the Emperor's ideals being further refined with the Horus Heresy novels, the Grey Knights have been more refined to match those ideals.
I don't like the New Grey Knights Kan, and I don't think I will. But your right now, and what you say is true. I'm not admittiing defeat at all in our disagreement, but the new fluff is fluff and that's the way it is. Like it or lump it.
It might do something against the Bloodtide, but it likely wouldn't do anything against the Bloodthirster himself
Theyre not alone.
1hadhq wrote:
The whole "blood of the innocent" is all about 100% protection, not taking risks. A bit different to necessary evil. The psykers would have done their job even in danger as GK know they may die unremembered.
Kanluwen wrote:
I bolded the part that makes it a 'necessary evil'.
The psykers may have done their job even in danger, but the fact that they needed to survive the encounter means that them anointing their wargear with the blood of the pure innocent is a 'necessary evil'.
Seems the GK brother fighting the Demon didn't survive. Smeared not enough blood on his war-plate?
Survival is not a primary goal. Mission accomplished IS.
The devil is in the details. For example the 1st Armaggeddon war genocide has been in the background for a while but people just overlooked it or didn't think it was that bad because it was two sentences. When Ward expanded this story it became even more horrific because we knew the details and process of this massacre. Thing is it was always horrible it just becomes more shocking the more we know and he only fleshed out that post-war a little.
Codex fluff (to me) are a collection of stories meant to jazz you up and make you feel you NEED to collect an army (I am certain power gamers probably have another viewpoint).
In the previous GK codex, GW achieved this through the following principles:
- The greatest heroes of the Imperium that will forever remain unsung and unremembered
- Exalted warriors that even a SM would find hard to match due to their torturous training and innate potential
- Consumate professionals (like Master Chief from Halo but on steriods), never complaining...
Remember the fluff (from WD) when Angron plunged his rune blade into the GK fighting him, "Your soul is mine to torment forever in the warp!" or words to that effect? The GK answered, "So be it." I still get goosebumps from that.
Mat Ward has essentially demeaned my memories of the GK by making them into:
- Comic book supermen (Draigo)
- SM who have their own ghosts, greviances, frustrations... etc (and how are they immune to the lure of chaos again?)
- Purifiers who are even more "PURE" than their brother marines
- Crowe who is the PUREST (TM) of them all...
- The SOB debacle
- SM who does not die (Thawn)
I am certain a writer of greater skill could probably pull the above off and still make the reader feel inspired and want to collect the army. After finishing the fluff, I had ZERO inclination to add to my existing GK 2k pts collection. In fact, I went from keen to total disinterest.
Having said that, some folks who are new to the GK might go:
"He did what?"
"Smashed the Blood God's avatar on his home turf!"
"Geez man, he's the hot sauce!"
"That's not all, he also took the bloodthirster's axe and reforged it into the titansword! Stength 10!!!!"
"Wow! Hardcore dude!"
"Yeah, he is sooo... awesome that he even found the time to carve his brother's name onto a daemon primarch's heart!"
<runs off to buy army>
Anyone with hindsight can eventually justify the fluff (except Draigo) but poorly written stories remain poor stories.
That's your opinion. I found the GKs to be insufferable Mary Sues before. I like them more now because they are greyer. If someone collects Dark Eldar because they look cool then picks up the codex and realizes "hey, these guys are jerks" - well that's just funny.
Manchu wrote:Getting ninja'd is good here, pretre. It bears repeating, since this is apparently a big cause of the confusion/frustration:
GK are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos.
The thing is though smearing blood on your weapons and armour, isn't going to really have any effect on your mental fortitude which is my main gripe with the story.
We don't know much about the nature of the Bloodtide from the 2 paragraphs given. But at least one reasonable reader -- i.e., Kanluwen -- has already pointed out that it could have been a kind of physical as well as spiritual compulsion. Out of everyone on Van Horne, only a fraction of the Sisters were able to resist it. We don't know what level of resistance they were able to muster or any other details about how it works. What we do know is that the Sisters themselves were not up to the task of ending the Bloodtide, despite their resistance. The Grey Knights, having performed the ritual, seem to have counteracted the power of the Bloodtide so that they could, with their superior capacity against this enemy, end the incursion. In other words, the blood sacrifice of the Sisters (which might have been, and probably was in light of their faith, given freely) was a necessary condition for the Grey Knights to defeat the Bloodtide. The issue is not entirely mental or entirely physical. This is the Warp we're talking about. It's a strange confluence of the real and the unreal. This is why things like chants, prayers, and even rituals have an effect in the 40k universe.
Ok my eyes burn now. I'm going to add a few thoughts without going rooting in boxes for specific wording from sources etc so this isn't 100%, just what I seem to remember and view on this whole thing.
The GK's are pretty much the elite of the space marines. The thing of flesh is weak means they can die before their job is done, but their souls etc wont fall to the lure of chaos. Their training and initiation sees to that, this chapter will happily kill an initiate if they fall below their standards which is above that of the other chapters by far.
They've been around since RT days, there's fluff in that era and 2nd ed to add to the DH codex and couple of WD pages mentioned.
They're used sparringly against the threats of chaos, not just daemons, they were space hulk options when going against chaos instead of stealers. That piece of fluff is why I wouldn't use an army of them except maybe in a specific scenario, and that one off game wouldn't justify the cost of an army.
I'm 100% certain the teleporting to the planetary governer story was in the dark millenium expansion for 2nd ed.
Now if anyone is seriously hey wait a minute and wishing to flame that bit when my kids are back at their mum's I'll go through a lot of boxes, however I expect paid for my time, I have better uses of it than to argue on the internet, the above is just what I remember from previous takes on them.
Now the whole point of the thread, Matt Ward. Not read the GK codex, or even the BA one. Me and 40k kinda drifted apart with codex creep. But from the example stated I'm finding it incredulous. If an actual alliance (Dante and a lord meeting up under a truce and agreeing to kill nids first) was what happened erm... go ahead rip into him. GK's killing a sister? Well if she was tainted sure, purge the taint, sacrifice to make an ointment? Erm... They're meant to be psykers, not sorcerers founded mysteriously, their origins so secret even most the imperiums elite don't have a clue where they came from.
As each one has a psychic ability it's this that makes them so suited to fighting the taint of chaos especially daemons, and they were always shown as being above even other marine chapters. I'm fairly certain the original fluff for the first war of armageddon (in a white dwarf when I was a teenager, I'm 33 now incidently) mentioned the other chapters getting mind wiped after the war simply because a space marine was too valuable a resource to just dispose of unlike regular guardsmen and the surviving population. This wasn't done to hide the nature of the GK's, their operating methods or whatever, simply to contain any lingering taint and destroy it. They were always said to be a militant arm associated with the inquisition.
Now it's interesting to see they've put some gaps filled in, ending the msytery, for example the story of them being founded. Expanding them a bit is sort of cool, but not something that will have me frothing at the mouth as a must have (as some poor GW salesman found out trying to hard sell me them in the shop I popped into when passing to look at their cabinets).
Last thing that does annoy me. A lot. Some dude carved up a daemonicly ascended primarchs heart. Was the primarch in a coma? Seriously, they have been bigged up as "untouchable", "costly to banish back to the warp in invasions" (see first armageddon war) and only the Emperor, Horus and the chaos powers themselves are really who can handle these guys solo. Lot of firepower, planet levelling, and costs to life just to destroy their physical body sure believable.
In short they're really aiming the fluff at the under 12 mindset now. Grimdark 5th ed background of humanity is basically ed was great, this stuff lets it down. Badly. Next up the lone eldar guardian spanking a keeper of secrets before having slaanesh pleasure him in ways too mind boggling to print before going back to the craftworld free of any taint with a daemonette girlfriend or three? An extreme example, it's scarily a short step away.
From everything I have read Ward's fluff really needs some thinking through by him before he writes it in my opinion, if that makes me a whiner, whinger or 16 year old, then for not liking my favourite meal that makes other people the same?
But anyways thats my reasons for disliking it and what i have read.
And yep I realise this thread was to get people to stop and think why do i dislike this, am i just trying to jump on the whinge of the week bandwagon? I like the reason behind it but perhaps some better wording than just an insult at the start would have been a little better
So, lets discuss awesomeness and get a better topic going, like I've only got up to a certain point in the horus heresy books due to lack of funds, who lives nearby so i can borrow the rest? Now thats a topic worth me posting, scuse me folks, make way!
Manchu wrote:We don't know much about the nature of the Bloodtide from the 2 paragraphs given. But at least one reasonable reader -- i.e., Kanluwen -- has already pointed out that it could have been a kind of physical as well as spiritual compulsion. Out of everyone on Van Horne, only a fraction of the Sisters were able to resist it. We don't know what level of resistance they were able to muster or any other details about how it works. What we do know is that the Sisters themselves were not up to the task of ending the Bloodtide, despite their resistance. The Grey Knights, having performed the ritual, seem to have counteracted the power of the Bloodtide so that they could, with their superior capacity against this enemy, end the incursion. In other words, the blood sacrifice of the Sisters (which might have been, and probably was in light of their faith, given freely) was a necessary condition for the Grey Knights to defeat the Bloodtide. The issue is not entirely mental or entirely physical. This is the Warp we're talking about. It's a strange confluence of the real and the unreal. This is why things like chants, prayers, and even rituals have an effect in the 40k universe.
But the only time we really see blood rituals in 40k is when it's chaos/dark-eldar related though why would it all of the sudden be used as a repellent against a warp-based disease it seems like a Deus Ex Machina. Also is
there anyway I can find more about the symptoms, effects and other info about Blood-tide?
Manchu wrote:We don't know much about the nature of the Bloodtide from the 2 paragraphs given. But at least one reasonable reader
So we're being unreasonable because we don't think that it fits in with what has already been established?
Manchu wrote:In other words, the blood sacrifice of the Sisters (which might have been, and probably was in light of their faith, given freely)
If something to this extent was what was written in the Codex, then it wouldn't be so bad. The way it is you can interpret it that the Grey Knights wimped out and turned their blades on the Sisters as a quick fix.
Why not
'Sisters, the Bloodtide is nearly upon us, but without your sacrifice we will not prevent the desecration of this world'.
I know there wasn't speech in the text in the codex, but you get the idea.
Then much stabbing and thrusting and daubing of blood on armour.
Kanluwen wrote:Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.
So basically were arguing about something when we don't even know what it does.
More or less.
The main whining has nothing to do with the Bloodtide proper, but rather the Grey Knights using the Sisters as a conduit for a ritual working.
But still the question remains why are blood rituals are now being represented as chaos repellent when there's countless examples of it being used for sorcery and demons, I'm going to have to agree that this is bad
Kanluwen wrote:Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.
So basically were arguing about something when we don't even know what it does.
More or less.
The main whining has nothing to do with the Bloodtide proper, but rather the Grey Knights using the Sisters as a conduit for a ritual working.
But still the question remains why are blood rituals are now being represented as chaos repellent when there's countless examples of it being used for sorcery and demons, I'm going to have to agree that this is bad
They're not?
The thing you're missing is that the 'blood of an innocent' is part of the ritual, not the only thing. It was mixed with oils and unguents as part of the ritual to create the end product, which was used as an 'anointing oil' for the wargear.
@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.
I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.
The thing I find the most deplorable is the hate of Matt Ward himself. I mean, sure, the fluff might be silly, but that hardly makes him bad...
Still, the older Daemonhunter Codex paints the Grey Knights as incorruptible super-marines for whom faith alone in the Emperor shielded them from the horrors of the Warp. Sure, while that isn't necessarily true of the new book, a lot of the ideas of the new book seem silly to me.
Purifier order? Really? I mean, I get it. They're 'pure-er' than everyone else, but then what's more pure than pure? And writing on Mortarion's heart, as well as burning Nurgle's Garden? That's just over the top, really. We get it, we already know Grey Knights are super-badass space men who are totally incorruptible and manly, my problem with his fluff is that it seems like he's trying so hard to make an impression that the Grey Knights are interesting that he overdoes it. The blood incident I suppose I can get over, but I really think that Ward should have noticed it'd cause a bit of grumbling, and I'm not sure what his idea was behind it.
All in all, Matt Ward isn't a bad writer or whatever, I just feel like he doesn't need to try so hard to make us think that Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Whatever are cool/super badass.
I have to admit that I jumped on the 'we all hate Matt Ward' bandwagon a little bit (more like running along side). I think I might stop and grab on to this one instead.
His fluff ideas are there, the actual execution and writing style lets it down. The GKs may have at one point been this 'White Knight' group of holy warriors who protect humanity. I always liked to think of them as the only shining beacon organisation that didn't sacrifice millions of the IoMs ordinary citizens to achieve some higher goal. Evidently they have never been quite like that. They may not have been on quite the same level as the Inquisition but they did what was necessary to keep their existence a secret.
The GK codex is mostly good. Certain things like the Castellan Crowe safeguarding a horribly powerful Daemon sword because he is the only one 'pure' enough to resist temptation is one of my favourite character descriptions in 40k. He should have a short story about him, or feature in a BL book in the future. It would be interesting to see more character development, maybe he's not completely immune to it's temptations, it constantly whispers to him, he's deeply affected by its presence, sometimes he nearly loses faith but his duty keeps him going. It would be nice to see a story that reveals that SMs and GKs are still human deep down, no amount of phsyco-surgeries and mental conditioning for a life of constant war can take out the human in them. I'm completely off track.
Anyway, that's just an example of fluff I think is very good. It's fairly obvious that there are two particular parts that stand out. Draigo is interesting because he has another dimension to the character. You can't have debate without personal opinion, and in my opinion Draigo has this ideal that he is this highly powerful, highly incorruptible, highly motivated hero, but is trapped in the Warp. He shouldn't be trapped in the Warp and still be gloriously powerful and unaffected by his experience. To have this ideal, he should be constantly battling for sheer survival. He should be half crazed but ultimately resolute in the knowledge that he is still a GK. The whole description of him just reeks of someone whose just carried away with writing. As a professional writer I'd have thought you'd try to reign yourself in and try to keep it in context and at least believable within the world your describing. Some of the stuff is just so OTT, I wont go into specifics because they've been retold enough.
The Blood Tide story is forgiveable. It's not OTT and with the current image of the GK its fits well. Facts have been misread quite a lot, for example, the codex says 'The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons.' Not once is it said that they 'bathe' in the blood of the SoB. IMHO there's a big difference between bathing and anointing.
There are things that have been left to speculation, which is something that's missing in recent codex updates and new fluff. I really don't want to find out what the Terminus Decree is just yet, or whatever it is that's locked up beneath Mount Anarch. I don't have any other examples of his work, but he appears quite regularly in some of the WD issues I have, and I don't get new ones that frequently. His snipets are well worded and insightful and he seems to genuinely enjoy being a part of the Hobby. From what I've heard, he usually writes better rules than some other design team members, if they are at some points a bit OTT and over powered, although I'll refrain from forming opinions right now.
Manchu, whilst you did maybe say something without thinking about how some people would take it, I hardly think that it's that offensive. People have seen something mildly out of order and immediately think its like a person insult and blow it out of proportion.
I'm having a great time collecting the new GKs. The models are fantastic, (bar the Dreadknight but it's not terribad) and are great fun to model and customize. It's great that you can get so much variety and unit choices from only a single box, although you have to shell out stupid amounts of money for only five miniatures, but that's another gripe for another thread.
Manchu wrote:@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.
I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.
I just can't see under any circumstance why holy oils would need to be with mixed blood in order to protect yourself for Blood Tide (unless it's a chaos ritual), couldn't they have used another liquid?
Manchu wrote:@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.
I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.
I just can't see under any circumstance why holy oils would need to be with mixed blood in order to protect yourself for Blood Tide (unless it's a chaos ritual), couldn't they have used another liquid?
Because if you were to look at any culture, at any point in human history:
Blood has had arcane properties of a sort.
Look at the myths of vampires that started up from Bram Stoker. They suck blood.
Why?
Because the blood extends their life through unnatural means.
Look at the sacrificial lambs that the Greeks used when communing with their gods.
What was the point of that?
The blood was a way to fuel the rite, the act was designed to please the higher deities and draw their attentions.
Hell, look at Christianity. The 'Blood'(wine now) and 'Body of Christ' is part of an elaborate ritual that signifies you've accepted to take a part of the redeeming savior into your body.
And you're still missing the key part, or you're intentionally trying to skew things so you can say that it's a giant Chaos ritual.
They didn't just use any old 'blood' as a 'liquid' for the mix.
The blood had to come from a 'pure' individual who retained 'innocence'.
This could mean anything from that it required a virgin to whatever else, but those two particular parts make for some very big differences from Chaos rituals which tend to involve massive quantities of death(not 'blood', death) to weaken the boundaries between real-space and the Warp enough for their ritual to work.
Manchu wrote:@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.
I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.
I just can't see under any circumstance why holy oils would need to be with mixed blood in order to protect yourself for Blood Tide (unless it's a chaos ritual), couldn't they have used another liquid?
Because if you were to look at any culture, at any point in human history:
Blood has had arcane properties of a sort.
Look at the myths of vampires that started up from Bram Stoker. They suck blood.
Why?
Because the blood extends their life through unnatural means.
Look at the sacrificial lambs that the Greeks used when communing with their gods.
What was the point of that?
The blood was a way to fuel the rite, the act was designed to please the higher deities and draw their attentions.
Hell, look at Christianity. The 'Blood'(wine now) and 'Body of Christ' is part of an elaborate ritual that signifies you've accepted to take a part of the redeeming savior into your body.
And you're still missing the key part, or you're intentionally trying to skew things so you can say that it's a giant Chaos ritual.
They didn't just use any old 'blood' as a 'liquid' for the mix.
The blood had to come from a 'pure' individual who retained 'innocence'.
This could mean anything from that it required a virgin to whatever else, but those two particular parts make for some very big differences from Chaos rituals which tend to involve massive quantities of death(not 'blood', death) to weaken the boundaries between real-space and the Warp enough for their ritual to work.
Unless SOB blood is more poisonous, acidic, etc in property I fail to see how it would be any different from any other human.
Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?
Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.
Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?
Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.
Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?
'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.
Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.
Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?
Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.
Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?
'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.
Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.
I don't know how much clearer I can make this.
Well most of the the "pure" magic in 40k is usually portrayed though artifacts, amour, weapons, oils, anointment, religious sites, buildings, seals, symbols, mental faith and certain psychic powers. I'm pretty sure this is
the first time I've heard of imperials trying to use blood rituals, to create "pure" magic when in past texts "holiness" was determined by the items of the individual or his/her loyalty to the emperor.
Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?
Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.
Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?
'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.
Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.
I don't know how much clearer I can make this.
Well all the "pure" magic in 40k is usually portrayed though artifacts, amour, weapons, oils, anointment, religious sites, buildings, seals, symbols, mental faith and certain psychic powers. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've heard of imperials trying to use blood rituals, to create "pure" magic when in past texts "holiness" was determined by the items of the individual or his/her loyalty to the emperor.
There's no such thing as "pure magic" in 40k. It's all related to psychic powers or acts of faith.
Once again, however, you're putting way too freaking much emphasis on the fact that blood is used.
Blood being involved doesn't mean it's evil. Blood is a component in the ritual, and it's a specific kind of blood('the blood of a pure-hearted innocent') used to augment and disperse the Bloodtide's effects.
However:
In the Eisenhorn novels, there's mention of wards to bind and subdue daemons 'being able to be daubed in blood, if time is a factor'. It doesn't mean that the daemon is appeased, in fact, it angers the daemon if the blood of an innocent or a pure-hearted individual is used.
Purity and innocence are emotional aspects that likely would have an impact in the Warp, which means that if they do--they would have a negative impact upon daemons formed from the stuff of the opposing emotions(hate, anger, greed, avarice, etc).
Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?
Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.
Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?
'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.
Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.
I don't know how much clearer I can make this.
Well all the "pure" magic in 40k is usually portrayed though artifacts, amour, weapons, oils, anointment, religious sites, buildings, seals, symbols, mental faith and certain psychic powers. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've heard of imperials trying to use blood rituals, to create "pure" magic when in past texts "holiness" was determined by the items of the individual or his/her loyalty to the emperor.
There's no such thing as "pure magic" in 40k. It's all related to psychic powers or acts of faith.
Once again, however, you're putting way too freaking much emphasis on the fact that blood is used.
3 points:
1) That's what I meant when I say "pure" magic sorry for the confusion, more just bad wording on my part.
2) That's my point I hate the fact that the Grey Knights are using blood to anoint their weapons, because whenever imperials perform rituals there's a distinct lack of blood being used and I don't see why grey knights would be the exception.
3) I think were too different on our view points to really come to common ground, although I did enjoy debating.
1) That's what I meant when I say "pure" magic sorry for the confusion, more just bad wording on my part.
And even then, the most "pure" psyker abilities still use the powers of the Warp. There's not some magical good Warp filled with fluffy unicorns powering all the Good Guy Psychics and a magical bad Warp filled with spiky bunnies farting fire that powers all the Mean Psychics Who Are Jerks And Kicked Your Dog.
The Warp is a place that reflects the mortal realm. It's an emotional amalgam of both good and bad, the only difference is that the 'bad' has effectively come to rule.
2) That's my point I hate the fact that the Grey Knights are using blood to anoint their weapons, because whenever imperials perform rituals there's a distinct lack of blood being used and I don't see why grey knights would be the exception.
Because, once again, they're not using just blood to anoint their weapons.
And actually, there's been mention of weapons being anointed using the blood of saints and other 'pious individuals'.
So no, there's been times "when Imperials perform rituals using blood".
3) I think were too different on our view points to really come to common ground, although I did enjoy debating.
Considering that your point of view is flawed to begin with and all you're really wanting to do is complain about the fact that the word 'blood' is used, there's been no real "debate" and "no ability to come to a common ground".
You're focusing on the word 'blood' and not the part about 'blood of an innocent' being mixed with 'sacred unguents and oils' and the end result being used to further augment their already inherent protections.
1) That's what I meant when I say "pure" magic sorry for the confusion, more just bad wording on my part.
And even then, the most "pure" psyker abilities still use the powers of the Warp. There's not some magical good Warp filled with fluffy unicorns powering all the Good Guy Psychics and a magical bad Warp filled with spiky bunnies farting fire that powers all the Mean Psychics Who Are Jerks And Kicked Your Dog.
The Warp is a place that reflects the mortal realm. It's an emotional amalgam of both good and bad, the only difference is that the 'bad' has effectively come to rule.
2) That's my point I hate the fact that the Grey Knights are using blood to anoint their weapons, because whenever imperials perform rituals there's a distinct lack of blood being used and I don't see why grey knights would be the exception.
Because, once again, they're not using just blood to anoint their weapons.
And actually, there's been mention of weapons being anointed using the blood of saints and other 'pious individuals'.
So no, there's been times "when Imperials perform rituals using blood".
3) I think were too different on our view points to really come to common ground, although I did enjoy debating.
Considering that your point of view is flawed to begin with and all you're really wanting to do is complain about the fact that the word 'blood' is used, there's been no real "debate" and "no ability to come to a common ground".
You're focusing on the word 'blood' and not the part about 'blood of an innocent' being mixed with 'sacred unguents and oils' and the end result being used to further augment their already inherent protections.
Wouldn't killing a blood of a innocent make your actions worse not better and just because you're mixing blood with oil and anointment doesn't stop it from being a blood ritual. Also I never said that Grey Knights and Daemons don't use the same power source when using rituals it just how they use/harness that energy has always been significantly different from one and other.
Cheesecat wrote:
Wouldn't killing a blood of a innocent make your actions worse not better
How do you 'kill a blood of a innocent'?
Or are you meaning 'Wouldn't killing an innocent make your actions worse, not better'?
In that case: Who knows.
In terms of most arcane rituals if you look back through old texts, however, the context matters.
If the blood is offered up, willingly, by the innocent: it's 'untainted' by the act of spilling the blood. It's a pure thing, a thing of untold power that grants the bearer a measure of protection and immortality.
If it's taken by force, it's tainted and corrupts the person who spills it or curses them or any number of Very Bad Things.
and just because you're mixing blood with oil and anointment doesn't stop it from being a blood ritual. Also I never said that Grey Knights and Daemons don't use the same power source when using rituals it just how they use/harness that energy has always been significantly different from one another.
That's the first half-sensible thing you've said in your entire history posting in this thread.
"How they use/harness that energy has always been significantly different from one another".
In every culture, the world over intent matters.
The Grey Knights didn't use the blood of the Sisters, taken violently and tainted by that act, so that they could use it in some ritual to grant themselves power.
They very likely had it granted to them by the Sisters themselves. That blood was then used as a component within a ritual to create a talisman of purity(actual Codex wording right there) that further warded the Grey Knights.
The blood was not given willingly. "Turning their blades upon the sisters" is the wording and it doesn't have a peaceful connotation. The entire point of that section of the codex is to illustrate who the GKs can be a plausible opponent for any faction - not just daemons.
All in all, I enjoyed most of the GK fluff. I will admit, I took a double-take on the Bloodtide incident, and still find it a bit inexplicable, even in the face of explanation and discussion, but I didn't feel that it ruined the book, warranted the firing of the writer, etc. It was just a bit of fluff that failed to dovetail with my own preconceived impressions of the 40k setting- and let's all remember, it's a fictional setting that we are each viewing through our own lens, defined by our personalities and expectations and even the order in which we've been introduced to the setting- I don't think there's a great deal of merit in arguing about what the 'real' GK would have done as there are no 'real' GK and, at the end of the day, Mat Ward decides what the GK do, and we must accept, adapt or ignore what GW publishes, as we see fit. So while it might not be what I'd expected to read, it is something that I can understand and integrate into my own view of the 40k world. As far as the killing of the Sisters goes, I imagine that the act of sacrificial slaughter was important in the preparation of the oils, the martyrdom of the Sisters a vital element in the protection of the GK. Unexpected, but I get it.
Really, with the exception of Draigo, I found the book to be an enjoyable read and thought it really touched on the 'grimdark' aspects of the universe nicely. I particularly enjoyed the (non-Draigo) special characters, as they were all flawed and tragic individuals doomed to fail but driven to fight to the last breath nonetheless.
+ Mordrak, driven to the brink of madness by the warp-ghost of his fallen brothers, who will never know peace until Huron Blackheart is made accountable for his betrayal.
+ Crowe, tasked with guarding a relic daemon sword but never using it, knowing that despite his paragon status within the Grey Knights, even he might not be able to resist the corruption of the activated sword. The fact that sooner or later, the sword is going to kill Crowe, or he's going to be killed by some daemon or chaos-worshipper who's after the sword, the same fate that has invariably befallen all the other bearers, really stands out to me as what the GK are all about: holding the forces of pure Chaos at bay, no matter the cost.
+ Stern, cursed with the attentions of a powerful and insidious chaos daemon, whose constant meddling has come to define Stern's life. Is Stern actually making a difference and getting closer to defeating his nemesis, or is he completely and utterly outclassed by a superior intellect, doomed to waste his life- and the lives of his men- chasing a foe he can never hope to truly defeat?
All that being said, I did find the entire section on Draigo to be a nothing short of Mary-Sueism at it's worst. He strikes up rivalries with Greater Daemons (sorry, Stern, you've been one-upped!), humiliates Daemon Prince Primarchs, serves as a one-man-army wish fulfillment vehicle, trashes the domains of Chaos Gods without any fear of retaliation, destroys legions of daemons and entire cities with his S5 AP- template psychic power, annihilates so many greater daemons that the next Chaos Daemons codex is going to have to register them on the endangered species list, is described as legendary/of legend multiple times in the same entry, is lost in the warp except when he's not, and, right from the entry for this last one, committed thousands and thousands of other such acts (though he hasn't killed any avatars... yet). I personally consider Draigo's entry to be one of the lowpoints of the codexes I've read (4e and 5e only), and largely reminiscent of the fanfic my college roommate used to write about his stupid D&D ranger. I've always viewed Chaos as all-powerful, ancient, unknowable, evil, and lovecraftian, and thus I have a lot of trouble rationalizing that what I read in that blurb exists in the same universe where even Primarchs were deceived, corrupted, or outright destroyed by Chaos and it's agents. Accept, adapt or ignore- I won't lose any sleep over it.
I found the rest of the book to be quite well done. I was never a big GK fan and this book didn't change that in the end, but I gained an appreciation for who they are and what they do. The tragic hero vibe might have been a bit hamfisted and overdone, but 40k is a galaxy where everything is a bit hamfisted and overdone, and I'd expected no less. Finally, I was pleased with the book's overall theme of the Gray Knights being valiant, but ultimately doomed, especially since I'd felt that the last few codexes released really moved away from the whole 'it's grimdark and we're all going to die' that helps define the 40k setting.
...If they needed the blood... Why murder for it? In what way would that make the situation better? If it was being mixed with oils and unguents anyway, surely asking the Sisters to cut their palms and give some of their blood would have been more peaceful, more sensible, more un-evil, and economical? I refuse to believe that murdering the Sisters was the only solution to the problem. This could be because Marines tend to be very single-minded in the pursuit of their goals, but I'd have thought that GK were a bit smarter than that, seeing as Sisters when they haven't been murdered would be a great asset to the GK, as their faith is obviously pretty darn strong if they were all exposed, some turned and some didn't.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:We don't know if that was the only solution to that situation we only know it's the one the GKs choose.
Then... I don't... How...
I'm not gonna question the book any more, it's got too many ridiculous things in for me. If others like it, that's their opinion and I understand that, and I can understand why this particular incident occured, but even in the grim darkness of the future, there has to be more sensible codexes
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sensible?! SENSIBLE?! 40k is not the universe for you then my friend.
Sensible within the realms of OTT science-fiction, then. When watching Aliens:
Spoiler:
They try and kill the Aliens on the ground, then try and nuke it. That was sensible. They didn't think "Maybe with more men we could take them", or "Maybe if we take out the Queen the rest will die", they just nuked it.
A realm made of emotion? OK, that's cool and I can get my head round it. The bad emotions make Daemons? OK, makes sense. A Primarch, one of the 22 most powerful human beings to have lived, turns to Chaos? Sure, why not. A chapter master new to command carves his name on one of these Daemon Primarchs' heart? ...No. Just no.
Kanluwen wrote:
In terms of most arcane rituals if you look back through old texts, however, the context matters.
If the blood is offered up, willingly, by the innocent: it's 'untainted' by the act of spilling the blood. It's a pure thing, a thing of untold power that grants the bearer a measure of protection and immortality.
If it's taken by force, it's tainted and corrupts the person who spills it or curses them or any number of Very Bad Things.
It was forced. But also pointless as their librarians were able to keep the bloodtide away.
Kanluwen wrote:that further warded the Grey Knights.
Didnt you WIN? ... maybe won insight into the shortcomings of a certain author when he has to get his point across to the fanbase.
Order of events:
- broken containment field > fine
- corrupt local priests > fine
- place sisters, to be sacrificed later, there > valid critics of the girls fate to be slain so often
- sent GK > fine
- perform ritual, but go for aztec style not greek > fail. So who was called upon to protect? Wasn't the Emperor.
- push back the tide with librarians > fine. Why did they need the blood again?
- kill the demon > fine. Lost 1 GK but kicked his ass thoroughly.
It would gain acceptance if it didn't read like a chaos ritual at a first glance. But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.
The "spiritual liege incident " cannot be forgiven. The flying Land Raiders were just ignorance to the full entry.
The Necron-bromance also missed the point of the rise of the necrons. Higher ups awaken and add more variety to decisions than "dumb" autodefenses.
What we all have to admit is that the Bloodtide is one of the only stories in the Codex that doesn't have a lot of specifics, and its the one that needs it them the most.
Firstly what were the actual effects of the Bloodtide? Were they physical or spiritual or both? It says 'corrupting everything and everyone it touches'. One fact we know is that corruption occurs on contact with the Tide. Some SoB are able to resist it in some form.
Secondly, were the remaining SoB mercilessly killed by the GKs or did they willingly give themselves up to be used in this ritual? the natures of both parties would point to either of the above mentioned possibilities.
Thirdly, why did the GK, who are already described as highly incorruptible, need another layer of protection against this particular form of Chaos?
I don't have a problem with the story but I can see where others might. In my opinion it's entirely in keeping with the GK's current image. They will sacrifice any number and any member of the IoM to complete their goal to defeat Daemonic incursions. They use 'sorcery' in a kind of fight fire with fire way, turning the weapon of the enemy against them. They are the only ones able to do it without falling to corruption.
A lot of points are being bounced back and forth here. Some good points, well made and some, well, they remind me of my days on Warseer. The main thrust of the defence for Ward's writing seems to me to be that it is in keeping with the nature and theme of the 40K universe. Now, theme is all down to interpretation. The key themes one might pick up from a piece of writing differ with the individual. Certain people will get one thing out of it, others will get another. The very definition of subjectivity. So if the majority of people find Ward's writing to be out of key with the themes of the universe as they understand it, wouldn't that imply that he was off the mark somehow?
Before anyone makes it, please don't go for the 'people are dumb' defence. It's too easy.
Also, I was promised calming cake. Where's the cake? What a rip off.
if the majority of people find Ward's writing to be out of key with the themes of the universe as they understand it, wouldn't that imply that he was off the mark somehow?
Well I suppose it depends on whether you think that fiction should be subject to some kind of democratic accountability. I'd say GW and their agents create the facts and those who care sufficiently must either reconcile old facts with new ones somehow, or accept that the canon is flawed (but that its creators are happy with that), or that some aspects of the canon are now outdated.
But substitute 'most' for 'a reasonable proportion', because we don't know which side is in the majority.
I don't think that actually the sister's episode is irreconcilable with what's gone before. What people are objecting to, it seems, is not even that the GK slaughter the lovely space nuns in their power-bondage corsets, but that:
1 - the blood is then used as part of a ritual
2 - some of the space nuns are described as having been corrupted when their codex says only one has fallen to chaos ever.
2 is easily answered because corruption need not be a mental failing (a giving way to temptation), instead the blood tide may welll have consumed their spirit and corrupted the remaining flesh, turning the mutated shells (still in those kinky corsets of course) into tools for its own purposes.
1 I think has been answered above. We have to accept that this isn't a 'blood for the blood god' mass sacrifice. It is a typical GK extermination, and then use of the sisters' blood for the ritual.
Okay, is the ritual sensible? No, but this is 40K. Does it contradict previous canon? Not really. It may be a one-off event, but lack of precedence does not actually mean canon has been violated.
That brings me back to thinking that it's just the fact that some people don't like it. Which is their perogative, but it doesn't make Ward wrong.
1 - the blood is then used as part of a ritual
2 - some of the space nuns are described as having been corrupted when their codex says only one has fallen to chaos ever.
1- It fits he image of the GK's 'fighting fire with fire'. Their ritual involves 'holy' blood, taken from pure and innocent servants of the Imperium.
2 - Only one SoB has willingly turned to Chaos. There may be countless SoB who have been forcibly corrupted, they are only relying on their fortitude of mind to protect them. A thoroughly human one at that.
I use the word 'most' mainly because of two reasons.
1) The majority of people on forums seem opposed to it.
2) Independantly of that, in the circle of friends I game with we found certain parts of Ward's writing to be jarring and OTT even for 40K. I should mention that we found the most part of his fluff fine, though. We're not knee-jerk Ward-haters, we just found some bits to bit out of keeping with the feel of the universe.
I do think that fiction should be subject to the criticism of its audience. Who else will criticise? I know this isn't exactly what you're saying, but to blithely accept anything that is written without registering any emotional reaction seems robotic, not to mention beside the point of the thing.
Canon-violation would more be that we've gone from 'only one sister has ever fallen' to a whole bunch of sisters falling at once. You can play the old progpaganda card, but I don't buy that. The way the fluff is written is presented as fact. That was the only problem I had with the blood-tide section, not the sacrifice. I didn't like seeing members of my chosen faction sacrificed by their ostensible allies, but hey, this is the Grey Knights. They do what they please. That bit never bugged me, canon-wise.
Also, why do people think that sisters' power armour is kinky? Sure, it emulates the female form, but no more that Marines' armour emulates the male, with their overemphasised broad shoulders, pectoral muscle plates, and prominent codpieces. I call projecting on that.
Kanluwen wrote:
In terms of most arcane rituals if you look back through old texts, however, the context matters.
If the blood is offered up, willingly, by the innocent: it's 'untainted' by the act of spilling the blood. It's a pure thing, a thing of untold power that grants the bearer a measure of protection and immortality.
If it's taken by force, it's tainted and corrupts the person who spills it or curses them or any number of Very Bad Things.
It was forced. But also pointless as their librarians were able to keep the bloodtide away.
Sorry, did you get the Codex: Grey Knights Extended Edition?
Because it says nothing about whether or not it was 'forced' or not.
Kanluwen wrote:that further warded the Grey Knights.
Didnt you WIN? ... maybe won insight into the shortcomings of a certain author when he has to get his point across to the fanbase.
Really? You underlined 'warded' and think you're clever?
You're aware that it's a term that means 'to defend', right?
Synonyms that could have been used are 'shielded', like the book used.
Order of events:
- broken containment field > fine
- corrupt local priests > fine
- place sisters, to be sacrificed later, there > valid critics of the girls fate to be slain so often
- sent GK > fine
- perform ritual, but go for aztec style not greek > fail. So who was called upon to protect? Wasn't the Emperor.
- push back the tide with librarians > fine. Why did they need the blood again?
- kill the demon > fine. Lost 1 GK but kicked his ass thoroughly.
It would gain acceptance if it didn't read like a chaos ritual at a first glance. But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.
'Details get lost' when they're not fully there to begin with. We do not have the remainder of the details, just a general overview for the events.
It says 'some sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide'. There's to me no implication there that they are spiritually tempted to chaos and join (which I think 'fallen' does imply), rather that they are physically overwhelmed, their bodies corrupted, their spirit vanquished. I think that's a reasonable reading. Reading it that way avoids the canon violation, so why not just go with that? If there are two or more ways of interpreting something and one of them breaks canon and the other(s) do not, I think it's sensible to go with the latter.
I don't actually think much of Ward's writing (it's okay in its way, I suppose) but it's not, for me, any more terrible than most GW fiction.
Now about the 'talisman of purity'. Many of the space nuns (who are very kinky, you just have to look at their 'holier than though' artwork to realise they must indulge in unspeakable vice behind closed doors...) were not corrupted, and so - perhaps - had resisted the physical corruption of the bloodtide. The GK presumably needed that. Hence the use of the blood. Very practical, given the nuns had to die anyway. I agree, the thing's a wee bit weak as an idea, but it does say 'so shielded the grey knights were able to stride through the goreflood uncorrupted'. So it was necessary.
That does leave a wee problem. How is it some of our nuns were uncorrupted by the tide and yet others succumbed?
Well supopose the bloodtide does actually attack one's 'spirit'. If one's spirit is overcome (not 'tempted', but vanquished), then one's body is corrupted as one's soul is lost (not given up freely but destroyed or captured). For some reason ('innocence'?) some nuns are able to resist this better than anyone else. Faith, perhaps, has something to do with it.
Saying "Marines are supposed to be demi-gods" is all well and good... but the idea of one CARVING A NAME onto a Daemon-Primarch is just unfathomable, that should be a one-sided fight if there ever was one.
Artemo wrote:It says 'some sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide'. There's to me no implication there that they are spiritually tempted to chaos and join (which I think 'fallen' does imply), rather that they are physically overwhelmed, their bodies corrupted, their spirit vanquished. I think that's a reasonable reading. Reading it that way avoids the canon violation, so why not just go with that? If there are two or more ways of interpreting something and one of them breaks canon and the other(s) do not, I think it's sensible to go with the latter.
You know what? That makes sense. I'm going to go with that, in a turned-into-Chaos-spawn kind of way. Still not a fan of the Draigo fluff or the robot babygrow though. And I never will be.
If Ward designed the Stormraven, then as far as I'm concerened, all his background writing sins are forgiven.
To be honest though, I don't really see his writing overall to be any better or worse than the mass of GW fiction. The Draigo stuff is especially egregious, but I think that's maybe more a consequence of lack of editorial control ('Matt, old boy, just tone that down a bit, would you? Thanks) on GW's part. Many writers tend to get carried away when not restrained by editors. GW obviously ddon't put a high premium on having quality writing in their background fiction and won't even proof-read the rules (way more important) thoroughly. So Ward cannot take sole blame really.
I actually didnt have a problem with the codex fluff or rules wise, I thought it was actually well written for Mr. Ward and im a huge critic of his work.
EXCEPT: the abomination that is Draigo fluff..... just that whole entry makes me gag. His rules arent that scary but the fact that he just frolics around HELL pwning everyone and doing whatever he wants and carving his name into primarchs is possibly the most immature piece of 40k fluff written next to SM riding wolves. Dumb beyond words and ill just pretend it was never written. None of the chaos gods dont just look at this guy and turn him into spawn or red apple sauce or something? What makes him immune to WARP GODS!? The emperor himself could even go crusading around the warp in his prime but this yahoo is just the end all to beat all imperial fanboy beatoff material!?.... grrrrr ok im done.
Laughing God wrote:I actually didnt have a problem with the codex fluff or rules wise, I thought it was actually well written for Mr. Ward and im a huge critic of his work.
EXCEPT: the abomination that is Draigo fluff..... just that whole entry makes me gag. His rules arent that scary but the fact that he just frolics around HELL pwning everyone and doing whatever he wants and carving his name into primarchs is possibly the most immature piece of 40k fluff written next to SM riding wolves. Dumb beyond words and ill just pretend it was never written. None of the chaos gods dont just look at this guy and turn him into spawn or red apple sauce or something? What makes him immune to WARP GODS!? The emperor himself could even go crusading around the warp in his prime but this yahoo is just the end all to beat all imperial fanboy beatoff material!?.... grrrrr ok im done.
Like I said good codex... except that... thing
And yet, for every 'victory' that Draigo has the Ruinous Powers have repaired the damage in the blink of an eye.
He's the embodiment of Sisyphus, pushing his stone up that hill only to have it roll back down as he reaches the top.
Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry, did you get the Codex: Grey Knights Extended Edition?
Because it says nothing about whether or not it was 'forced' or not.
To turn your blades on fellow Imperial servants isn't forcing but asking nicely?
BTW: Ours is automatically an extended edition.
Mine has at page 5 :
Spoiler:
"in der langen Geschichte des Ordens verfiel kein Grey Knight jemals den verlockungen des chaos und keiner wird es niemals tun." I doubt it is correctly translated but now it reads like "none will never do". At least a additional "n" was read into,
therefore extended edition.
Kanluwen wrote:
Really? You underlined 'warded' and think you're clever?
Shall I ?
To cite myself:
But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.
Kanluwen wrote:
'Details get lost' when they're not fully there to begin with. We do not have the remainder of the details, just a general overview for the events.
Still deserves the suggestion of improvement when lack of details is the issue of a piece of background.
From nearly hiding the Iron Hands in his first codex to missing details in his third is a start.
Maybe I didn't write this line quoted above as clear as possible. But somehow I also have a feeling you're trying to evade the point of a story
lacking details can lead to a bad first impression and those first ones stick.
Are 30% of a DIN A4 page in small font not enough to write things unambigious?
In English, "turn their blades on" does not necessarily imply that the SoB resisted the GK. No amount of reading into the story is going to get us to the point of certainty about whether the sacrifice was willing or not. It's just not in there.
On the one hand, the Sisters are totally prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice against the enemies of the Emperor. It's also likely they would obey someone with the authority of the Inquisition.
On the other hand, they're none too fond of warp rituals and may not even have known precisely who the GK were.
We just don't know.
But that's beside the point. Either way it's grimdark.
@htj: You're right about analyzing themes being a matter of subjective interpretation. But "subjective interpretation" does not mean that you can attribute anything to the material. For example, no one can say "a core theme of the GK is that they are Puritans." Nor can one say "a core theme of the GK is that they only use psychic powers when they absolutely have to."
These things may suit what a particular individual thinks of the GK but that particular individual's thoughts have nothing to do with the GK that GW publishes about. There is simply no GW-published material to support those notions. Now if a person says "to me, GK are puritans" that's fine -- but they're only actually talking about their own private fantasy world, not about the wider world of 40k. Thing is, no one really cares about their private vision of 40k in a discussion like this. Go to the texts that are available to everyone.
The texts do support certain themes, such as the ones that I've highlighted in my OP. You can usually tell when a person is talking about the actual GK rather than their private take on the GK because they produce supporting citations from the GW-published text instead of saying things like "well, I can't be bothered to look at the books, but the way I think of it is . . ." "Subjective" doesn't mean random, unprovable, unsupported, without evidence, etc.
Kanluwen wrote:
Really? You underlined 'warded' and think you're clever?
Shall I ?
To cite myself:
But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.
And you're missing my point. When I used the word "warded" I was not making some kind of stupid immature joke about Mat Ward having written the Codex, which is what you seem to have been thinking when underlining it.
"Warded" is a term that means "protected".
It has absolutely nothing to do with the author of the codex, and has everything to do with the impression I received from reading the story.
Kanluwen wrote:
'Details get lost' when they're not fully there to begin with. We do not have the remainder of the details, just a general overview for the events.
Still deserves the suggestion of improvement when lack of details is the issue of a piece of background.
From nearly hiding the Iron Hands in his first codex to missing details in his third is a start.
The Iron Hands have never been big players in the Space Marine codex.
Maybe I didn't write this line quoted above as clear as possible. But somehow I also have a feeling you're trying to evade the point of a story
lacking details can lead to a bad first impression and those first ones stick.
And maybe you're missing the point that it has nothing to do with the author and everything to do with the actions of the Grey Knights. They used the ritual to create themselves a talismanic ward, allowing them to proceed through the Bloodtide and the goreflood accompanying it.
Are 30% of a DIN A4 page in small font not enough to write things unambigious?
It wouldn't matter if it was bloody spelled out in black and white people would still cry about it because it doesn't fit their interpretation of the background and that specific army.
Look at the Tau threads recently as an example.
We've got stuff printed within the Deathwatch RPG talking about forced sterilizations, people being abducted in the middle of the night from their homes to be subjected to genetic experiments and fed to Kroot, we've got the Taros campaign talking about how Manta Destroyers had to be brought in to kill Warhound Titans--and people still have the gall to say that the Tau are a major military threat to the Imperium.
"turn their blades on" does not necessarily imply that the SoB resisted the GK.
True. But I'd say that's by far the most likely of the interpretations. Standard GK procedure is to exterminate witnesses, I believe. So they'd slaughter the nuns anyway. Given that's the case, why would they waste time asking for consent? Of course those that wish to believe the lovely nuns bared their breasts to the knives willingly (um, if that's the phrase I want...), are at liberty to do so as it's not specifically ruled out, as you rightly say. I do feel the implication's clear in the context though.
Kanluwen wrote:
The Iron Hands have never been big players in the Space Marine codex.
Their IA article wasn't smaller than anyone elses. They kept the contqual story, but cannot be bothered to show more than a single painted model in a codex? NO SC? Nearly invisible as a First founding Legion if the reader doesn't pay tons of attention?
And thats " never been a big player!" in your book?
Excuse moi, but thats ignorance not lack of background to put in.
Seems BL moves off the UM-centric sight on Space marines and thus the IH at least may get a chance.
Kanluwen wrote:
And maybe you're missing the point that it has nothing to do with the author and everything to do with the actions of the Grey Knights. They used the ritual to create themselves a talismanic ward, allowing them to proceed through the Bloodtide and the goreflood accompanying it.
So the author has nothing to do with his own written text? Responsibility is now blamed on the fictional GK?
Sorry, the theme is: uncorruptible and usage of sanctified artifacts, not: high resilience and sorcery.
There is exactly zero examples of sorcery or usage of tainted wargear without precautions by GK in this codex.
The bloodtide was driven back, by GK psykers. Without using anything of the collected blood. The story contributes only a
"take no risk to your own safety" approach, not a "mission objective is primary above all else" as it should.
Are 30% of a DIN A4 page in small font not enough to write things unambigious?
It wouldn't matter if it was bloody spelled out in black and white people would still cry about it because it doesn't fit their interpretation of the background and that specific army.
It would for those who prefer correct quotes like I. Easier to dispatch unwarranted whining.
Kanluwen wrote:
Look at the Tau threads recently as an example.
I am going unseen in these threads? or why do you assume I dont know where the endless debate in circles comes from?
Kanluwen wrote:
We've got stuff printed within the Deathwatch RPG talking about forced sterilizations, people being abducted in the middle of the night from their homes to be subjected to genetic experiments and fed to Kroot, we've got the Taros campaign talking about how Manta Destroyers had to be brought in to kill Warhound Titans--and people still have the gall to say that the Tau are a major military threat to the Imperium.
See, I was fine having YOU to deal with the wishful thinking in this Tau thread.
Call me lazy, but is nigh impossible to convince the ignorant of the failure in their assumptions.
(Had too much modelling at hand to waste time there.)
My sincerest apologies as I didn't support the side of enlightend understanding of the background in its eternal strife against fanboyism.
When I used the term "warded" it had exactly NOTHING to do with the author of the book. It is a term that has been in use for centuries to describe a defense, and mostly in terms of arcane defenses.
It says quite specifically that it allowed them to walk through the 'goreflood' unharmed. So it was in fact necessary.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should though add that, contrary to my earlier assumption that the bloodtide might destroy the spirit and corrupt the flesh, the start of the chapter clearly says that the corruption is one of turning the virtuous to chaos. Now if one equates that with 'falling', then Ward has contradicted the space nun codex that says only one has ever fallen (or so I read above, I don't have that codex). It could be argued though that corruption of that sort by the goretide is involuntary, unlike other forms of 'turning', so it might be arguable that Ward hasn't contradicted canon there. The alternative is that the space nun codex ibackground must now be considered out of date. It might be interesting to see what their new codex (if they get one) says.
Doesn't the codex somewhere specifically state Grey Knights are immune to corruption?
I can't remember where, I think it was about the Aegis and it said something like:
"A Grey Knight's psychic presence is is anathema to the creatures of the warp, utterly unpalatable to a daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption."
Thanks for making this thread Manchu - your original post sums up my thoughts perfectly.
When the original 'fire Mat Ward!' posters began making their examples I didn't understand what they were talking about. The examples they presented as outrageous seemed perfectly in line with Grey Knights, and if anything fit better into the 40K background. Having recently gotten myself a copy (I don't play them, but know thy enemy!) I'm nothing less than satisfied with it. Sure, Mat is no Phil Kelly, but I don't play Blood Angels either.
When I used the term "warded" it had exactly NOTHING to do with the author of the book. It is a term that has been in use for centuries to describe a defense, and mostly in terms of arcane defenses.
Why should the reasonable poster in this thread as per Manchu, create a freaking post?
Maybe calm down a bit? I didn't claim you used the word " warded" to disrespect Mr Ward.
Kanluwen wrote:And it further goes on to say that they're immune to corruption in the sense that they cannot be corrupted and turned to Chaos.
They're not, however, immune to 'corruption' in terms of Daemonic forces tearing up their physical form.
So attacks in the material realm now count as "corruption" ?
Fascinating attempt to circumvent the problem.
Can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind?
Maybe the GK defenses against corruption encompass the whole GK so you have to overcome them first to corrupt the 'flesh'... Maybe this goes for their machines too? Wouldn't make sense to field that dreaded knight if it turned against its pilot.
Second issue is where the protection comes from.
- the anathema to the demonic is the Emperor
- the GK abilities are gifts from the Emperor
- to bane demons and close warpgates you call upon the Emperor
Somehow, rituals with blood don't seem to fit into a request of protection to the Emperor.
So either you call upon a warp entitiy with this ritual, and hope to stay uncorrupted because you need protection against corruption but
as uncorruptible are not at risk, which begs the question why you request protection at all. Chaotic isn't it?
When I used the term "warded" it had exactly NOTHING to do with the author of the book. It is a term that has been in use for centuries to describe a defense, and mostly in terms of arcane defenses.
Why should the reasonable poster in this thread as per Manchu, create a freaking post?
Maybe calm down a bit? I didn't claim you used the word " warded" to disrespect Mr Ward.
Then what the hell was your point in underlining it, and then begin ranting about Ward's writing abilities?
And I love how it always goes to someone trying to tell someone else to "calm down".
Do you really think I would get worked up into a tizzy by your post? At best it made me question your grasp of the English language, and at worst it made me assume that you're one of those people who think that the Nemesis 'Ward' Staff was named for the author.
Kanluwen wrote:And it further goes on to say that they're immune to corruption in the sense that they cannot be corrupted and turned to Chaos.
They're not, however, immune to 'corruption' in terms of Daemonic forces tearing up their physical form.
So attacks in the material realm now count as "corruption" ?
So psykers attacking in the material realm with Nurgle gifted plagues are physical attacks that don't corrupt?
Fascinating attempt to circumvent the problem.
What "problem"? The story is intentionally vague. The whole point of it is to elevate the deeds of the Grey Knight to a mythical status and to show the lengths they'll go to in order to fulfill their tasks.
Can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind?
What does the mind have to do with anything in this case?
We're talking about the soul and body here. The mind is a third, non-involved, factor.
As for "can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind"...uh yes, you quite clearly can.
Does someone who suffers from diabetes go insane when his insulin levels are low?
Does someone who loses the use of their limbs through a spinal injury start seriously thinking he's a wizard and declaring a jihad of Elves against the medical community for failing to save his immortal soul?
Maybe the GK defenses against corruption encompass the whole GK so you have to overcome them first to corrupt the 'flesh'...
Maybe this goes for their machines too? Wouldn't make sense to field that dreaded knight if it turned against its pilot.
We've known for a long time that Imperial Machines have their own distinct 'personality'. Land Raiders have been known to detonate rather than be captured by the forces of traitor Astartes, etc.
The Dreadknight, carrying a Mind-Impulse Unit much like a Titan, would have its own distinct personality...that is blended and shaped by the pilot.
Second issue is where the protection comes from.
- the anathema to the demonic is the Emperor
Actually, no. It's pure faith. We saw that with Euphrati Keeler during the outset of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor wasn't a 'Divine Being' like he is now, and simply by making the sign of the aquila and demanding a daemon to begone--she banished one.
- the GK abilities are gifts from the Emperor
Says who? They're recruited from psykers to begin with. The only thing that is 'gifted from the Emperor' is done during the Soul-Binding ritual which ensures that they gain a measure of the Emperor's power.
- to bane demons and close warpgates you call upon the Emperor
To 'banish Daemons', you need their true name. The Emperor doesn't need to be mentioned.
Closing Warpgates requires lengthy rituals involving various materials and --surprise surprise-- a sacrifice of some kind.
Somehow, rituals with blood don't seem to fit into a request of protection to the Emperor.
Who says it was a request of protection to the Emperor? Or to anyone?
So either you call upon a warp entity with this ritual, and hope to stay uncorrupted because you need protection against corruption but
as uncorruptible are not at risk, which begs the question why you request protection at all.
Cite a source saying they 'called upon a warp entity'. Go on. I dare you to.
You won't be able to, because the only information relating to this particular event is purposely made as vague as possible so that players can draw their own reasonable conclusions.
Leaping to the conclusion of "The Grey Knights are Khorne worshipers!" isn't a 'reasonable' conclusion.
At best you've got "The Grey Knights employ questionable methods and are not above straying to radical rituals to beat Daemons at their own game".
Chaotic isn't it?
Only if you try to make it so. But your points make assumptions that aren't actually in any passage of text relating to the Grey Knights and are null and void.
Just a couple of things to add. Firstly, I think this topic is being given way more thought than the original codex writers ever gave it, in order to try and justify why or whatever happened. Reading this thread, makes me think of that Saturday Night Live sketch years ago with William Shatner, where he was attending a star trek convention. I am sure you know the one. You either enjoy reading the background, or you don't. There is no right or wrong opinion, and it's senseless trying to beat your head against a wall and force someone to like it or dislike it.
Personally, I found it overblown and OTT. However, in a way this is continuing the tradition of many modern codecies - each codex acts to massively support whichever army it is written about, it's not meant to be an over-arching narrative that portrays the 40k universe in a balanced way. Think of how Marneus Calgar is handled in both the Marine codex and the Tyranid Codex respectively, or after reading the Ork codex you get the impression that the Imperium has been pretty much brought to it's knees.
No doubt if the GK were to feature in the next chaos codex, we might well see a story of them where a huge bunch of them are reduced to a pathetic bunch of wimpering little mummy's boys, who's last act after they soil themselves is to get butchered by Magarothraxx the despoiler or whichever Draigo-esque character gets concocted for the next codex. After which, he uses their kidneys to make a massive picture of Khorne which is viewable from space.
I think it boils down to Matt Ward doesn't understand how to write the concept of 40k. He's shown bizarre needs for an inspirational hero who is as OTT as he is pure and holy ala Sanguinor and Draigo, which doesn't really fit in the universe as presented so far. He's mishandled motivations, ex: everyone desires to be ultra, necrons letting BA go, BA not slaughtering xeno, the SoB incident. The reason Phil Kelly is loved and Matt Ward is hated is because Kelly can write and design for the universe.
Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.
Is there not a long standing tradition in this sort of genre with regards to the power of virgin blood ?
Surtur wrote:The reason Phil Kelly is loved and Matt Ward is hated is because Kelly can write and design for the universe.
And yet, Kelly created the Thunderwolf Cavalry. He's been working for GW for at least two decades now.
People complain endlessly about it and it works for the universe.
There's nothing wrong, at all, with Ward's writing in terms of "for the universe". The only thing wrong is his writing ability. For someone who went from just being a rulesmonkey to effectively being 'in charge' of writing fluff and Codices both, he's doing fine working up towards being a good storyteller.
A second Howling Commandos team was introduced in the 2005 series, Nick Fury's Howling Commandos. Its members were:
* Clay Quartermain, the commanding officer of Area 13. He takes over in the first issue from Dum Dum Dugan. * Warwolf (real name Vince Marcus), the field leader. He is a werewolf who can transform voluntarily whenever Mars is in the night sky. * Nina Price, a half-vampire and half-werewolf. * N'Kantu, the Living Mummy a previously existing character. N'Kantu is an undead prince of Ancient Egypt. * Frankenstein, an intelligent clone of the original Frankenstein's Monster. How this process didn't produce different clones of the various individual body parts making up the original monster was briefly mentioned in issue #1. The response was, "Don't go there". * Gorilla-Man, a previously existing character. Kenneth Hale is a man trapped in a gorilla's body. He is now a member of the Agents of Atlas. * John Doe, a zombie depicted as having normal human-level intelligence, in contrast to other zombie characters in the Marvel universe.
And before you say it: Yes, it's ridiculous, and yes, it's AWESOME.
And I love how it always goes to someone trying to tell someone else to "calm down".
Do you really think I would get worked up into a tizzy by your post? At best it made me question your grasp of the English language, and at worst it made me assume that you're one of those people who think that the Nemesis 'Ward' Staff was named for the author.
Glad you love it. The Name/word "Ward" is only found at page 1 of my codex. Guess why?
Kanluwen wrote:
So psykers attacking in the material realm with Nurgle gifted plagues are physical attacks that don't corrupt?
Biological warfare combined with "warp-magic" counts as corruption now?
Or maybe, we keep it 'reasonable' and accept the corrupting part is the additive of the warp which Nurgle mixed into his creations?
Kanluwen wrote:
What "problem"? The story is intentionally vague. The whole point of it is to elevate the deeds of the Grey Knight to a mythical status and to show the lengths they'll go to in order to fulfill their tasks.
So missing details is a good thing now? Good to have our speaker of MrWard who knows his clients intend.
Kanluwen wrote:
We've known for a long time that Imperial Machines have their own distinct 'personality'. Land Raiders have been known to detonate rather than be captured by the forces of traitor Astartes, etc.
The Dreadknight, carrying a Mind-Impulse Unit much like a Titan, would have its own distinct personality...that is blended and shaped by the pilot.
GK vehicles are basically low level psykers, aren't they`? Rules say so. Personality + psi then.
Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, no. It's pure faith. We saw that with Euphrati Keeler during the outset of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor wasn't a 'Divine Being' like he is now, and simply by making the sign of the aquila and demanding a daemon to begone--she banished one.
Cool, the Demons must have been auto-banned in 12" at a 2+ then and the Grey Knights just killed the SoB so nobody knows the GK did nothing worth reporting home....because sisters have faith, maybe even more than remembrancers
Really, Keeler is an example why inner strenght and faith IN the fething god emporer is a tool to be wielded for your own protection.
Normally psykers are needed to get rid off Demons ( M-hotep for example ) and most species having psykers are able to banish Demons.
Thus, there are more than 1 way to sent them back into their realm.
But, if you try to use things "holy" "sanctified" etc, its safe to assume the method to make them "holy", sanctified" ,etc is to have faith
in a God( like ) beeing. The aquila may or may not be a valid tool , but the Emperor is since these Demons call him anathema to them and their masters.
Kanluwen wrote:Says who? They're recruited from psykers to begin with.
GW. Claims GK are the last gift he could give to mankind before he was unable to act directly for now.
Thanks BigE. Nice present.
Kanluwen wrote:
To 'banish Daemons', you need their true name.
Closing Warpgates requires lengthy rituals involving various materials and --surprise surprise-- a sacrifice of some kind.
And every psyker knows their true names and obviously all these psykers closing warp gates and / or banning demons waited until the lenghty process of revealing the true name of a demon has been finished before they act.
- So how about a source for the sacrifice made ?
- How about these psykers who did their duty without GK attending?
Kanluwen wrote:
Who says it was a request of protection to the Emperor? Or to anyone?
A sacrifice is always a request. A request has always a recipient.
Its not always answered, but still its intended to gain attention and maybe a wish is granted.
Nobody ever sacrificed anything to be unheard.
Kanluwen wrote:
Cite a source saying they 'called upon a warp entity'. Go on. I dare you to.
Try harder.
Could you please post the whole thing in this blue font ? Its perfectly near unreadable. You won't be able to, because the only information relating to this particular event is purposely made as vague as possible so that players can draw their own reasonable conclusions.
So
Kanluwen wrote:
Leaping to the conclusion of "The Grey Knights are Khorne worshipers!" isn't a 'reasonable' conclusion.
At best you've got "The Grey Knights employ questionable methods and are not above straying to radical rituals to beat Daemons at their own game".
Was I part of the GK=khornates thread? Did I ever claim GK=Khornates?
NO?
Maybe the conclusion of mine of this story isn't the same as yours.
Mine is Grey knights are GREY. Therefore not white, but also not black. Youre running with that crappy idea of radical GK. Let me tell you :
GK aren't split like the inquisition. One order. No fallen to hunt.
GK guard the dangerous stuff, but don't use it.
Spoiler:
Last time a "marine" went there, his legion was thrown to the wolves....
Kanluwen wrote: But your points make assumptions that aren't actually in any passage of text relating to the Grey Knights and are null and void.
Why did you reply again? Ah I see, because you wanted to enlighten me with so many quotes but hadn't yet the time to post them?
Right. I missed the part where I had to subscribe to FAW.
PS: whats wrong with He-man on battlecat? I mean, come on Kelly put a lot of effort into getting the T-wolves into the SW dex and is proud of it. Or hes a xenos lover and did it on purpose to ridicule the SM.....
What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?
I think it's sort of how orks blood is supposed to be green yet it's almost always painted red instead.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?
Simple answer?
Daemons bring the stuff of the Warp with them and alter the laws of reality as they come into becoming more and more stable.
They wouldn't 'vaporize' immediately when killed if they've got a firm alteration of the laws of reality and if the area where their incursion is has become more Warp than realspace.
Or the Grey Knights just killed the Daemons either/or
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ork blood is supposed to be red. GW has directly said so. Their blood is still iron based.
Yes, this. The green of their skin is meant to be from chlorophyll under the surface, rather than from the colour of their blood. 'Cos, you know, they're plants.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?
Simple answer?
Daemons bring the stuff of the Warp with them and alter the laws of reality as they come into becoming more and more stable.
They wouldn't 'vaporize' immediately when killed if they've got a firm alteration of the laws of reality and if the area where their incursion is has become more Warp than realspace.
Or the Grey Knights just killed the Daemons either/or
The reason why daemons have invul saves is to represent how they don't really have organs or anatomy. For example of you blow a hole clear through a plague bearer's chest it'll reknit immediately or if you take a bloodletters head of it'll keep fighting anyway. They are only "killed" when they dematerialize (and even then they are only really banished for a while). I think these mountains of daemon corpses are a fluff error.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?
Simple answer?
Daemons bring the stuff of the Warp with them and alter the laws of reality as they come into becoming more and more stable.
They wouldn't 'vaporize' immediately when killed if they've got a firm alteration of the laws of reality and if the area where their incursion is has become more Warp than realspace.
Or the Grey Knights just killed the Daemons either/or
The reason why daemons have invul saves is to represent how they don't really have organs or anatomy. For example of you blow a hole clear through a plague bearer's chest it'll reknit immediately or if you take a bloodletters head of it'll keep fighting anyway. They are only "killed" when they dematerialize (and even then they are only really banished for a while). I think these mountains of daemon corpses are a fluff error.
They're really not though. There's been mention of "daemon corpses" before.
Planetstrike specifically mentioned a force of Astartes that fought Nurgle Daemons and Plague Marines on a world that had recently reappeared from the Warp, and they had to burn the Daemon corpses afterwards.
The more twisted and corrupted a planet, the more tangible Daemons will be.
Well it seems people would have daemon skulls and other daemon paraphenlia. Perhaps they would have dematerialized eventually but it takes a while in a place that had a catastrophic warp rift.
The important thing to remember is that Grey Knights aren't going to be fighting where there's one or two Daemons showing up.
They're going to be there when things are so bad that the fabric of reality itself is torn asunder.
The GK's are mega when you think that the vast majority of units have force weapons. for 150 ish pts you can kill a unit of 3 carnifexes not too difficulty
Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands actually have more than just that. They've been given a fairly decent exposition, and much more specifics of them are given than we saw of the Grey Knights.
We knew that they were organized into Clans, we knew that they're heavily into bionics and self-mutilation to attach those, field many Dreadnoughts and Masters of the Forge, etc.
Some of that, however, comes out of the information about their Successor Chapters such as the 'Sons of Medusa'.
Do you mean the fluff where the Iron Hands are organized into Clans and led by a Clan Council and don't have a Chapter Master? Because I'm pretty sure that fluff is obsolete since one of the only mentions the Iron Hands get in the current Ultramarines Space Marine Codex is a quote by their Chapter Master, Kardan Stronos. Though I guess this shouldn't be so surprising considering that in the new fluff the Iron Hands' spiritual liege is himself a Chapter Master (i.e. Marneus Calgar).
So, yeah, considering who wrote the aforementioned codex, I wouldn't really bring up the Iron Hands in an argument defending Matt Ward's respectful treatment of the existing background.
Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands have never been big players in the Space Marine codex.
And now evidently their sole reason for existence is to show how awesome the Ultramarines are by comparison.
But I guess it could have been worse. Like, I heard from my friend that Matt Ward was gonna put a fluff piece in the codex where Marneus Calgar hunts down Fulgrim in the Eye of Terror and carves "ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN" into his daemonic buttcheeks, then retrieves Ferrus Manus' severed head, tattoos "MACRAGGE RULES MEDUSA DROOLS!" on its craggy brow and returns it to the Iron Hands along with a personally autographed copy of the Codex Astartes. In gratitude for this magnanimous act the Iron Hands have their lexmechanics draw up papers divorcing Ferrus Manus and adopting Roboute Guilliman as their official primarch and the Iron Hands Chapter Master legally changes his name to "Mini-Calgar" in honor of their spiritual liege. But it got cut due to space constraints.
I read the two stories, and they exemplify the worst of Matt Ward: Not caring about previous fluff and just writing what he thinks it should be.
Bloodtide story: Only one SOB has ever succumbed to chaos...until Matt ward came along. Let's just say for the sake of argument that "some" equals twenty. Twenty times as many in the entire history of the Imperium in one stroke. Nice going, Matt.
Next, the GKs "first act is to turn their blades on the remaining SOB". This is their first choice? Way to go right to the dark side DarthWard.
Then he talks about "the innocent blood thus spilled is mixed with blessed oil". I don't care how you try & justify it, spilling innocent blood is EVIL.
AFAIK, the GKs were fine with their oils & ungeants, but then here come Ward, now we need innocent blood to really protect us? Please.
Moving on to Battle of Kornovin, after smashing through a bodyguard, which I could see happening and have no problem with, but then "knocks the Daemon Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on his heart"
What the ? What is Montarion doing while this is going on? Drinking tea? Apparently, in Ward's view, He doesn't do ANYTHING but just let it happen. That is a load of you-know-what.
Irony: I can take my Archon, a Klaivex w/demiklaives & 4 other Incubi & chop that same guy into mincemeat.
reds8n wrote:
Is there not a long standing tradition in this sort of genre with regards to the power of virgin blood ?
If SoB were all virgins, perhaps, but remember that they do not, in fact, take a vow of chastity. It might have made more sense if, say, they had been mentioned to be nulls or something.
Scarey Nerd wrote:Just because it fits their original fluff doesn't make it good
40K is grimdark, yes, but there has to be a line, surely. Space Marines aren't mindless, and they're not so single-minded that nothing matters except their goals. If the eradication of Daemons was the GK sole purpose, and they're willing to sacrifice billions of human beings to do so, they are defeating themselves. If you slaughter your allies to preserve your secrecy or to further your mission to destroy Chaos, surely you are ignoring the point of your mission to start with: To save humanity. If they're willing to ignore what should be the primary purpose of their existence, then as an organisation their usefulness ceases to matter.
The murder of the Sisters on St. Mariel was to make sure that the GK were not corrupted, though I thought the point of them was that they were incorruptible. I don't know if that was an accidental contradiction or if I missed something there, but...
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, but if Sisters players refuse to see those as canon then I refuse to as well
Um, Kan, I hate to point it out to you, but I have a small sisters army, and I see it as canon, so, um, yeah... (and Daemonifuge it was enshrined as canon in Radicals Handbook, IIRC)
Further, Blood of Martyrs, which goes into serious (some might say needless) detail on SoB including such entertaining things as a ritual pulled right out of Harry Potter for SoB novitiates being assigned to their new orders also at no point mentions chastity.
Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?
Noisy_Marine wrote:Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?
Round and fething round we go.
We don't know what the Bloodtide is. All we know is that there's something associated with it called the "Goreflood".
With most Daemonic plagues that have been described in 40k lore, there's a physical and a spiritual component. You can be as pure of heart and protected by as many wards as you want--a Daemonic plague powered by a pissed off Greater Daemon is going to break right through conventional wards.
Noisy_Marine wrote:Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?
Round and fething round we go.
We don't know what the Bloodtide is. All we know is that there's something associated with it called the "Goreflood".
With most Daemonic plagues that have been described in 40k lore, there's a physical and a spiritual component. You can be as pure of heart and protected by as many wards as you want--a Daemonic plague powered by a pissed off Greater Daemon is going to break right through conventional wards.
Yes, but most of those, even ones that killed/corrupted every living thing on the planet at the command of Nurgle (who one would hope knows a bit more about contagion then Khorne does) and powered by a greater daemon large enough to require three orbiting strike cruisers to kill it with lance strikes, even regular space marines have proven resistant to (see Planetstrike). How much more so space Marines specifically geared up and trained for this exact thing?
Noisy_Marine wrote:Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?
Round and fething round we go.
We don't know what the Bloodtide is. All we know is that there's something associated with it called the "Goreflood".
With most Daemonic plagues that have been described in 40k lore, there's a physical and a spiritual component. You can be as pure of heart and protected by as many wards as you want--a Daemonic plague powered by a pissed off Greater Daemon is going to break right through conventional wards.
Yes, but most of those, even ones that killed/corrupted every living thing on the planet at the command of Nurgle (who one would hope knows a bit more about contagion then Khorne does) and powered by a greater daemon large enough to require three orbiting strike cruisers to kill it with lance strikes, even regular space marines have proven resistant to (see Planetstrike). How much more so space Marines specifically geared up and trained for this exact thing?
Remember in that particular story that several Marines were tainted though. To the point that "the Space Marines flung open the vault-door that their infected brethren might take the field one last time".
The infected brothers(or what's left of them) were free from the taint after the Greater Daemon was killed. If that's what was happening with the Goreflood and Bloodtide...
Then it makes even more sense for the Sisters to have willingly offered themselves up as sacrifices, if it cleansed an entire Shrineworld of taint with the Grey Knights killing the Daemon producing it.
Kanluwen wrote:
Remember in that particular story that several Marines were tainted though. To the point that "the Space Marines flung open the vault-door that their infected brethren might take the field one last time".
The infected brothers(or what's left of them) were free from the taint after the Greater Daemon was killed. If that's what was happening with the Goreflood and Bloodtide...
Then it makes even more sense for the Sisters to have willingly offered themselves up as sacrifices, if it cleansed an entire Shrineworld of taint with the Grey Knights killing the Daemon producing it.
Except they didn't offer themselves up, they were immediately 'put to the sword'.
'Put to the Sword: (idiom) If someone is put to the sword, he or she is killed or executed. (alt) to have sexual intercourse with."
I grant, I'll laugh my ass off if they meant the second one, but it would make just as much sense, Slaanesh being opposed to Khorne.
Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.
Eh... again, Josephus states that most of the people were not actually willing, and it was told to him by two women who had survived by hiding with their children in a cistern. Once the soldiers butchered all the remaining civilians, they drew lots and slew one another until only the last man actually killed himself.
Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.
Err, who exactly used that phrase to describe the events at Masada? A Google search for "Turned their blades upon" and "Masada" returns no results.
He's probably making reference to a translation of Josephus' The Jewish War. However, some idioms just don't quite translate... I remember once 'tickled pink' brought gasps of horror in China as it did not translate properly.
I still find Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico, though absurdly self aggrandizing, an interesting read. Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a little too preachy...
Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.
Err, who exactly used that phrase to describe the events at Masada? A Google search for "Turned their blades upon" and "Masada" returns no results.
He's probably making reference to a translation of Josephus' The Jewish War.
Yay! Edumcation!
Yeah... So, the answer would be...? I mean, Kan is (trying) to make a very textual argument, while at the same time making only the vaguest of references. So, who made used this exact phrase? Where did they make it?
I still find Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico, though absurdly self aggrandizing, an interesting read. Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a little too preachy...
"The Gallic War" is the first book I ever read in one sitting. I loved it.
Yeah... So, the answer would be...? I mean, Kan is (trying) to make a very textual argument, while at the same time making only the vaguest of references. So, who made used this exact phrase? Where did they make it?
He's probably working from Thackeray. It's the most common translation from the Greek.
EDIT: IIRC Thackeray used Benedikt Niese's edited version of the Greek original, however. So it's not the best source.
EDITX2: Caesar had a way with words. My first one the whole way through was Sun Tzu's Art of War.
I pretty much agree with Manchu. There is only one thing about the GK fluff I do not like. The Purifiers. They had they potential to be one of the most badass units fluff wise, and they ruined it with the "Even more incorruptible than the other incorruptible Grey Knights." part. I mean come on, this isn't a matter of what is in character for them, its just common sense. Your either incorruptible by chaos or you aren't. I doubt there are varying levels of incorruptibility.
Mike Noble wrote:I pretty much agree with Manchu. There is only one thing about the GK fluff I do not like. The Purifiers. They had they potential to be one of the most badass units fluff wise, and they ruined it with the "Even more incorruptible than the other incorruptible Grey Knights." part. I mean come on, this isn't a matter of what is in character for them, its just common sense. Your either incorruptible by chaos or you aren't. I doubt there are varying levels of incorruptibility.
And I doubt you're right about there not being "varying levels of incorruptibility" simply because we've got novels from Dan Abnett, who pretty much has 'written the book' on corruption from daemonic and Chaos taint, that say there are "varying levels of incorruptibility".
We've also got the Tau, who aren't incorruptible but simply harder to corrupt.
Corruption is a process that requires an expenditure of energy on the part of the Ruinous Powers. If it's too little return for too much energy, they'll find the next tasty treat.
Kanluwen wrote:
And I doubt you're right about there not being "varying levels of incorruptibility" simply because we've got novels from Dan Abnett, who pretty much has 'written the book' on corruption from daemonic and Chaos taint, that say there are "varying levels of incorruptibility".
We've also got the Tau, who aren't incorruptible but simply harder to corrupt.
Corruption is a process that requires an expenditure of energy on the part of the Ruinous Powers. If it's too little return for too much energy, they'll find the next tasty treat.
Blank would be impossible to corrupt, off the top of my head.
After actually reading through the background of the new GK codex, it was nowhere near as bad as I thoughtit would be.
True, a common trend in his books is that the Imperium will always revert to the harshest measures possible even when there is no real necessity (which is why I liked the IG codex fluff and Imperial Armour, more concerned with the vas resources the Imperium would throw at problems before any calls for exterminatus and other drastic measures). And yes, I did have to wonder aloud at the killing of sisters to protect themselves, given that we are actually talking about grey knights here it makes no real sense. But really, there's nothing overly offensive in the background. Certainly not warranting the anger that has sprung up on these forums.
Perhaps an issue is inconsistency, if the Grey Knights are willing to mind wipe the whole Blood Angels chapter, why not the same for an IG regiment?
BaronIveagh wrote:Blank would be impossible to corrupt, off the top of my head.
Depends, does falling to Nurgles Pestilence count?Or are we using some other method of corruption.
Regardless, their scarcity is enough reason to disregard blanks as the answer.
Also keep in mind that although only one Sister has fallen to chaos, physical corruption and mental corruption is different. 'Fall' is generally associated with mental corruption.
As well, remember that GK and Sisters have this purity claim to fame based on 'what is known'. There may have been thousands of corrupted individuals who were never known or recovered. For example, if the bloodtide had not been stopped by the GK there then all of the GK could have been corrupted when the world was consumed.
xcasex wrote:Sorry Manchu.
Since we're under parental advisory, i'll rephrase:
"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the <WET LEOPARD GROWL>, even if you win, you're still <WET LEOPARD GROWL>.
Better?
I have to wonder what you're doing in a thread where people are arguing about fluff if you think arguing about fluff is pointless. Just as a reminder since you're pretty new, trolling is against the rules here, too. (You might want to take another look through those rules via the link in my signature.)
xcasex wrote:Sorry Manchu. Since we're under parental advisory, i'll rephrase:
"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the <WET LEOPARD GROWL>, even if you win, you're still <WET LEOPARD GROWL>.
Better?
No. Considering this is a free place to discuss the background of a fantasy game, one random guy putting in a 'witty' comment about how people should get on with their lives, is not welcome. Please, remove yourself from DakkaDakka, or indeed any open forum, for fear that you may repeat this needless and indeed, hypocritical act.
On topic, I'm not entirely sure why people insist in using the same arguments, only for Kanwulen to have to repeat the same explanation. What is it that people don't understand? And thank you to the people who actually took the time to read the codex in its entirety, or just get a copy, and not skimming the two note worthy passages and thus form an opinion on the whole thing and Matt Ward in general.
oh carry on, i'm not trolling, just trying to you know.. get it back on track. since there was what i interpret as ad hominem rhethorics being used by kanluwen.
banhammering someone for trying to get a thread back on track is not my interpretation of constructive argumentation.
xcasex wrote:oh carry on, i'm not trolling, just trying to you know.. get it back on track. since there was what i interpret as ad hominem rhethorics being used by kanluwen.
I do not think those words mean what you think those mean.
Kanluwen has consistently provided a balanced perspective based on actual canon rather than 'ward whining'.
Manchu wrote:Alright, let's just continue on with alternatively attacking and defending Matt Ward rather than one another.
Amen to that.
And tbh, what i've read by Ward is fine, but the whole fluff has gone over to be more grim and gothic than say rogue trader and 2ed. less hope, more salve mea ex infernis.
When i first read a piece about the GK back when I was playing 2ed, they came across as brutally effective and shadowy, back then, in that specific story, they offed a planetary governor and recruited his helper. everyone in the city were purged i believe.
Draigo as someone noted is the proverbial lizard scaling the wall of a well. two steps up, four down.
the bloodtide story accurately reflects their modus operandi.
they're supposed to be the last line of defence against daemonic incursions and the earlier pre-5th ed fluff point to them doing whatever it takes to bludgeon the enemy back to whence it came.
i'll try to find that story as soon as i dig it out from wherever i found it.
xcasex wrote:And tbh, what i've read by Ward is fine, but the whole fluff has gone over to be more grim and gothic than say rogue trader and 2ed. less hope, more salve mea ex infernis.
It's true that a lot has changed between 2nd and 5th but the emphasis on GrimDark is not a contribution of either Matt Ward or 5th. Ward's stuff fits in with what 40k has been about for a long time now. The DH dex was not less GrimDark by any means -- there was just a lot less in it. I've thought a lot about Draigo and can't come up with much of a defense. Needless to say, this is 40k: OTT is the order of the day. But Ward does take it too far with Draigo, IMO. I can't rationalize his defeat of Mortarion without more details. The Bloodtide story, however, is totally fine. The book is better with it in than without it.
iproxtaco wrote:
On topic, I'm not entirely sure why people insist in using the same arguments, only for Kanwulen to have to repeat the same explanation. What is it that people don't understand? And thank you to the people who actually took the time to read the codex in its entirety, or just get a copy, and not skimming the two note worthy passages and thus form an opinion on the whole thing and Matt Ward in general.
Maybe people are dissatisfied with Kanwulen explanation and they might be repeating the same arguments because they feel they weren't effectively explained.
I read a thread earlier that speculated that Draigo isnt.. well.. draigo but rather one of the founders (garro etc) which could help explain the might of such a feat.
But like you, the whole carving on mortarions heart is a bit unspecific without more details.
Manchu wrote:No banhammers being pulled on you here, my friend.
Back on track is: the Bloodtide story in the GK dex is
(a) reasonable and ties in with previous fluff, evidencing Matt Ward's excellent grasp of 40k,
-OR-
(b) over the top nonsense, evidencing Matt Ward's defficient grasp of 40k.
My opinion remains that Ward's story is a good one that makes great sense and reminds us why the Grey Knights are not called the White Knights.
It's also possible, of course, that Mat Ward could understand 40k perfectly and hence why some of his stuff is ridiculously over the top.
I don't really understand all the hate either. I thought the blood tide story was really good. I think it comes down to people thinking the sisters were butchered, but I'd imagine they're pious enough that they'd all kneel down and allow their own throats to be slit. Or maybe they'd do it themselves?
OTT is the only logical progression for the fluff. It's how the backstory in ANY universe is handled. Challenges have to become progressively harder to keep an audience entertained. If it hadn't gone that far, people would have complained that the fluff was unremarkable as in the IG codex.
Who would want to keep reading about the same characters accomplishing the same things? If every book at them staying at Super Saiyan level 2, people would lose interest.
Manchu wrote:
(b) over the top nonsense, evidencing Matt Ward's defficient grasp of 40k.
Lets stop and think about this: The Primarchs, designed to be the Emperor's personal squad of ultimate badasses, break up and go their separate ways after clubbing each other for a while. Then some get even more super charged by the Ruinous powers, to the point they were able to eliminate many of their former brothers, including everyone's favorite spiritual liege. Every space marine in the universe, themselves ultimate badasses, thinks that their personal primarch was, next to the Emperor, THE ultimate badass, and has some fairly good evidence to back that up.
Now Draigo comes along BADDERASSED then a PRIMARCH and secretly has the information to raise the Emperor from the dead.
Possibilities:
A) Matt Ward inserted a Mary Sue
B) The Inquisition's sercret attempt to recreate the primarch project had at least one success, in addition to spawning all sorts of mutant space marines such as the Lamentors
C) It's an elaborate ruse by the Alpha Legion, in cahoots with Mortarion.
I doubt any of the actual codex characters are "founders" of the GK.
The 4 represent all some aspects of the GK.
1 as the psyker ability, 1 as the endurance against all odds, 1 as the martial prowess to best the foes, 1 as the control through discipline.
Draigo is something that belongs into a comic book, as is.
- Mortarion, the Primarch we all had to belive sits on his demon world and does nothing, because he got no fluff to draw any other conclusion from. Maybe if Draigo was one of the First Grandmasters and a chance would be there he is Nathaniel Garro, yes I could see a way to make a story of revenge come out believable. But no, he is the heir to a fallen Grandmaster and thus not that old.
- Draigo, the bestest GK as even the mightiest demons fear him, he who cannot tread his own path since a curse binds him, would be a fine
tragic hero if there wasn't this trend of strangling avatars, marking demon primarchs and other questionable ideas to aggrandize a character.
Sooner or later a certain author will run out of "worthy opponents" to prove a characters superawesomesauceness.
The mystification of the achievements of a "hero" character may become a piece of fluff. But amongst other pieces presented as "historical facts" ? ( yes, yes, no facts in 40k. Still some background has to hold a few ml of water...). Keeping it conform to one way to interpret how it is meant at a few pages of fluff cannot be to much to ask for.
Draigo falls into the category of:
Mr Ward isn't responsible to be clear.
Does a name capitalized across the 1st page not include a bit of responsibility?
Somehow, better editors seem preferrable over a new interpretation to "save" a badly transported meaning.
Definitely not D. The grand masters represent the original 8 founders. You wouldn't need a representative if the actual thing was standing next to you. Draigo's first battle was in 799.M41.
What would it matter if Draigo was Garro? That changes nothing. Mortarion is a Daemon Prince Primarch.
But let's reconsider what that could mean. Are all daemon princes equal? If so, we have a statline for Mortarion -- two actually, one in C:CSM and the other in C:CD, so take your pick. In either case, it's totally reasonable that a model with Draigo's statline could single-handedly defeat a model with a Daemon Prince statline.
If we're honest, this has nothing to do with a GK special character beating on a Daemon Prince. That's totally reasonable. If Unamed GK BadAss #298 had carved his mentor's name onto the heart of Unamed Daemon Prince #459, I doubt anyone would have raised the alarm in the first place.
The real issue is that the character in question was made up by an author who has been the butt of a lame internet fad. And that author had the utter gall to say that his character, who he just made up for this new dex, beat up a more established character.
Now I fully acknowledge that there is a real nuance here, a real problem and not just whining. It's well-established, as the good Baron points out, that the highest level of BadAssery possible in the GrimDark is represented by the Emperor and that the Primarchs rank a close second (super close, in regard to Horus). So it's not unreasonable to conclude that a Primarch Daemon Prince should be a lot tougher than Unnamed Daemon Prince #459.
That's the part I can't defend or even really explain. It actually does take real gall to write a story where your own character takes down a better established character, especially a character that was formerly known as one of the absolute most terrifying opponents in the franchise. I guess the thing to keep in mind is that Matt Ward isn't just some dude on /tg/ writing awful fanfiction; rather, it's actually the canon. But I have to agree that it would make more sense to read some of that stuff on /tg/ than in an actual codex . . .
Manchu wrote:The real issue is that the character in question was made up by an author who has been the butt of a lame internet fad. And that author had the utter gall to say that his character, who he just made up for this new dex, beat up a more established character.
@Manchu: Nicely put. That pretty much covers it.
@The rest: Not like the GKs don't have a history of taking down Daemon Primarchs. Draigo just gave him a present on the way out. (And again, read the book, Draigo wasn't alone against Mort.)
This is key (and indeed your whole post was nicely put).
What people have to swallow, somehow, is that actually Ward does know his stuff'. If he, in anyone's opinion, irreconcilably contradicts previous canon, then that canon must now be considered revised, no matter what the pain. Because Ward is the voice of GW. Rage against it or reconcile yourself to it, he isn't going to go away and what he writes is GW approved fact, unlike all our opinions, no matter how strongly held.
I guess one thing to keep in mind is that GW considers its own "canon" sources to be unreliable: i.e., the fluff text of any codex is supposed to be made up of myths, legends, rumors, propaganda, and some facts.
Good point. And that then allows the Draigo nonsense to be booted firmly into the realm of myth and for those who weep over the fate of the space nuns to say the facts in the case are merely distorted in the GK recoirds. Everyone is happy and we can all sleep easy in our beds...
I wonder if GW take the same approach to their rules-writing...
Yeah, this is pretty much how people view the Wolf of Fenris incident. I love SW and Red Corsairs, so sometimes I say the story is a pack of filthy lies and sometimes I say it's a glorious omen of imperial ruin.
The GK actively wipe all record of themselves off the official records, save for a few chapters they work with like the Silver Skulls. No legends of the grey knights are supposed to be out there in the first place, due to their policy of execution and enforced mindwipe.
So who are all these legends of great and not-so-late Draigo intended to be heard by, other than the Grey Knights themselves?
For a group of iron-willed, fluff-fearless (if not in game anymore) paladin-wannabes they seem to require some serious emotional support from these overblown 'legends'
I get your point . . . as a joke. Otherwise, the delivery of the fluff text is meant to draw in the reader -- to make you feel privy to the deep, dark secrets of the Imperium of Man. Of course, in the setting, the GK would have their own legends and, like every other faction in 40k, they're a bit foggy about their own past. That's the thing about a dark age: even the best-equipped are still backwards.
The important thing that seemingly always gets glossed over is that Draigo wasn't by himself when he 'beat up' Mortarion. Mortarion had already fought(and slain) the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Draigo was elevated on the battlefield, and Mortarion fled after this instance happened.
Page 15, upper right corner: 901.M41 'The Battle of Kornovin'
I believe it was myself who speculated that Draigo could be Garro, but it was very loose, and I don't stand by it as a theory. Essentially, Garro, could or could not have changed his name to Janus as is tradition with all Grey Knights. I believe they're different people, Janus likely being a psyker of some power. Garro then was the first Brotherhood Champion, due to his efficiency with his sword Libertas. Chances of surviving any great span of years is highly unlikely, and at some point Garro was listed as dead. However, I started to specualte that he and some of the other founders, may have had themselves secretly listed as dead, changed their identities and then been covertly put back into circulation. Since then, Garro, and possibly several other founders have survived due to their immense skill built up over 10,000 years of battling the Daemonic. Long term exposure to the Warp under the protection of their various wards and a potential gift from Malcador or The Emperor, either in geneseed or psychic form, and this latent ability has been amplified by training and long term exposure to the Warp. The founder have stayed long past their time to watch over their sons, making sure nothing, or no one goes astray, and to make sure The Emperor's holy duty is carried out for as long as necessary.Just speculation, would be a nice conversion opportunity to make Garro with Libertas.
It's not important, just thought I'd put it in this thread for anyone interested after there was chatter about it earlier on. That's two very good point people have put out. Grey Knights are likely even secretive amongst each other, Draigo's attack on Mortarion is in the realm of myth. Whether you agree or not, it's there and is now officially cannon, like it or not. I'm not denying people the rite to debate the story, but Matt Ward is the voice of GW, and has crafted, IMHO, a better image for the Grey Knights.
BaronIveagh wrote:B) CSMs, that it's fairly well known exist among the forces of the Imperium.
I've already contemplated this situation and, while it's true that the Sisters would not recognize the GK, they would not think they were CSM, either. CSM don't go around dressed in graven lauds to the God Emperor or emblazoned with symbols of Inquisitorial authority.
BaronIveagh wrote:B) CSMs, that it's fairly well known exist among the forces of the Imperium.
I've already contemplated this situation and, while it's true that the Sisters would not recognize the GK, they would not think they were CSM, either. CSM don't go around dressed in graven lauds to the God Emperor or emblazoned with symbols of Inquisitorial authority.
Yeah, but, consider: it's a deamonic holocaust. Are you going to believe what your eyes see, particularly after most of your sisters have already been consumed, or are you going to assume it's an (Alpha Legion style) trick?
Possibly, but then there would be a whole lot more betrayal and distrust in the Imperium if everyone thought any Inquisitor or Space Marine they had never seen before was a traitor in disguise.
iproxtaco wrote:Possibly, but then there would be a whole lot more betrayal and distrust in the Imperium if everyone thought any Inquisitor or Space Marine they had never seen before was a traitor in disguise.
Given the circumstances, the Imperium would be a whole lot more non-existent if they didn't assume that in the middle of, say, daemon incursions.
BaronIveagh wrote:Yeah, but, consider: it's a deamonic holocaust. Are you going to believe what your eyes see, particularly after most of your sisters have already been consumed, or are you going to assume it's an (Alpha Legion style) trick?
At this point, we're adding elements to the story rather than reading it for what it is. There are all manner of ways that we could make up that the GK could prove their identities to the SoB. But if I were to sit and think them out it'd just be fanfiction brought to you by Manchu. Any speculation as to whether the Sisters' willingly or unwillingly went to their martyrdom is fanfiction. All that we know for sure is that the GK killed them (i.e., they did not commit suicide).
We may not be able to state absolute fact, but we can debate which is the more likely. I think its more likely that the SoB saw an awesome force of holy warriors charged by The Emperor to whatever is necessary and then were willing to do anything, this time, sacrificing themselves to give a superior force a better chance of success.
But it's just as likely that they were simply cut down by all-business GK in a hurry to solve the more pressing problem of the Bloodtide. See, it's all fanfiction.
Manchu wrote:The real issue is that the character in question was made up by an author who has been the butt of a lame internet fad. And that author had the utter gall to say that his character, who he just made up for this new dex, beat up a more established character.
@Manchu: Nicely put. That pretty much covers it.
@The rest: Not like the GKs don't have a history of taking down Daemon Primarchs. Draigo just gave him a present on the way out. (And again, read the book, Draigo wasn't alone against Mort.)
To be fair p15 says "Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through the Motarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Greonitan's name on the Daemons vile heart."
There were other Grey Knights present at the battle but they are either slain or apparently not able to take part in the fight which it seems is Draigo vs Motarion AND his bodyguards.
I can sort of live with it - not keen though - as the codex does make clear that all of his subsequent victories essentially mean nothing and are at the very best transiant - perhaps just something new to amuse the Chaos Powers.
The Blood Tide incident - I would have been perfectly happy with them killing the Sisters who know too much but less happy with the kill them to carry out a blood ritual. I have never seen them as "White Knights" - no idea where that came from but the whole sorcery thing is not to my taste - ah well though.............I think I'll ignore these bits when it suits me.
Manchu wrote:But it's just as likely that they were simply cut down by all-business GK in a hurry to solve the more pressing problem of the Bloodtide. See, it's all fanfiction.
I'll concede the point, I guess it's mostly just opinion. Whilst I have no real problems with the Bloodtide story, a change to the first couple of sentences would make it better for everyone. Instead of saying 'the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' it would be better if it had said 'Knowing the Bloodtide to be particularly potent Daemonic force, the Grey Knights look for a means to protect themselves further from the corruption of the Goreflood. Recognising the Grey Knights to be the Emperors chosen, the Sisters offer themselves as willing sacrifices. The innocent blood thus......'. I'm certainly not going to start baying for Matt Wards blood over this story, as I have no problems with it, but I think a little bit more forethought should have gone into thinking about how certain parts of the community would take it.
Manchu wrote:But it's just as likely that they were simply cut down by all-business GK in a hurry to solve the more pressing problem of the Bloodtide. See, it's all fanfiction.
I'll concede the point, I guess it's mostly just opinion. Whilst I have no real problems with the Bloodtide story, a change to the first couple of sentences would make it better for everyone. Instead of saying 'the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' it would be better if it had said 'Knowing the Bloodtide to be particularly potent Daemonic force, the Grey Knights look for a means to protect themselves further from the corruption of the Goreflood. Recognising the Grey Knights to be the Emperors chosen, the Sisters offer themselves as willing sacrifices. The innocent blood thus......'. I'm certainly not going to start baying for Matt Wards blood over this story, as I have no problems with it, but I think a little bit more forethought should have gone into thinking about how certain parts of the community would take it.
Man, that particular paragraph resumes mostly why Ward's fluff is awful : the lack of forethought and polishing in many of his stories. Every one of the pieces discuted and hated by people COULD have been improved and made mostly good or acceptable. But it wasn't done. So, they are awful and lacks distinction and polishing.
iproxtaco wrote:Whilst I have no real problems with the Bloodtide story, a change to the first couple of sentences would make it better for everyone. Instead of saying 'the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' it would be better if it had said 'Knowing the Bloodtide to be particularly potent Daemonic force, the Grey Knights look for a means to protect themselves further from the corruption of the Goreflood. Recognising the Grey Knights to be the Emperors chosen, the Sisters offer themselves as willing sacrifices. The innocent blood thus......'. I'm certainly not going to start baying for Matt Wards blood over this story, as I have no problems with it, but I think a little bit more forethought should have gone into thinking about how certain parts of the community would take it.
Thanks for posting this, as it sums up my feelings exactly. I don't have a problem with the GKs using blood, I have a problem with HOW they did it.
And people can call me a nerdrager, but when I see poorly written fluff, I call it bad fluff.
And it's not as if Ward is alone in this. I think the quality of fluff in general has declined. Goto, Lightner and others have consistently published, in my opinion, very bad fluff.
Abnett, "Sandy Mitchell" and others, OTOH, have published very good fluff. So it's not all bad.
It's not as if there has'nt been bad fluff before. Eye of Terror may have been the worst 40k novel ever published. Although the ending with the fallen dark angel is pretty good, it does'nt save the rest of the book.
grmpf wrote:why Ward's fluff is awful : the lack of forethought and polishing in many of his stories. Every one of the pieces discuted and hated by people COULD have been improved and made mostly good or acceptable. But it wasn't done. So, they are awful and lacks distinction and polishing
Sandy Mitchell's stories are entertaining. Wait, I mean Sandy's one story that he pretty well stole from George MacDonald Fraser and Rowan Atkinson and that he's re-written six or seven times now is interesting.
There's a great difference between writing fluff in a rulebook and writing a novel. Think of Andy Hoare and his White Scars book, for example. Man's got some very interesting ideas but he has a long way to go before he's writing a good novel.
Moving along . . .
Does anyone know if the Bloodtide mentioned here is the same one or type unleashed by Voldorious (ha, speaking of White Scars!).
Well Manchu, I really do appreciate your arguments in the OP, and to an extent I am in agreement.
However, the suspension of disbelief only goes so far, yes, even in an o'er the top fantasy environment like 40k.
I draw the line at the Mortarion business. Sorry, dude's a demon prince and a primarch. Also, there's no reason why a Grey Knight GM, whose only duty is to destroy demons, wouldn't do it if he had one of the toughest ones in the galaxy at his mercy. It's also beyond the pale fluffwise for a primarch to be merked by a non-primarch who doesn't want to die *cough(Callidus)* (I'm willing to be corrected if there's a precedent somewhere)The SoB butchery and blood rituals etc, well, there's really no precedent for Loyalists behaving that way towards other loyalists, but I'm willing to be corrected here too.
Manchu wrote:Sandy Mitchell's stories are entertaining. Wait, I mean Sandy's one story that he pretty well stole from George MacDonald Fraser and Rowan Atkinson and that he's re-written six or seven times now is interesting.
Well he does also write the Dark Herersy tie in novels - which I enjoyed immensely, and whilst he himself notes he was inspired by both Flashman and Blackadder I think ithe series has its own life and I certainly prefer Cain as the lead player to Flashman........
His Warhammer trilogy is also very good - IMO of course.
and of course extracts from novels do appear in codexes so its not without prescendant..............
reds8n wrote:
Is there not a long standing tradition in this sort of genre with regards to the power of virgin blood ?
If SoB were all virgins, perhaps, but remember that they do not, in fact, take a vow of chastity. It might have made more sense if, say, they had been mentioned to be nulls or something.
I would suggest even if they don't take any such vow, the vast majority of them will indeed still be virgins however.
And the esential trope/stereotype : virgins/nuns blood, still stands in the example given.
That bit about the Sisters from the Cain novel always struck me as a poor joke.
I can't imagine Sisters having much to do with anyone outside of their order except in the line of duty. Playing poker and sleeping around -- when would they have time for it in a cloistered life of strict prayer and martial training?
I understood alot of religious orders actually seemed to have a surprising amount of sex and alcohol?
Having once entered the religious life, the virgin, the ascetic, and the monk felt a certain obligation to persevere. Marriage or return to the world would be such inconstancy as to merit the reproach of Christ, "No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62). Still we have no evidence to prove that there was a strict obligation, and there were no vows properly so called: even for virgins, the passages from Tertullian and St. Cyprian, on which some persons rely, are capable of another interpretation.
The Sister in the novels does seem to be unusual in many ways and Cain, quite a man of the world is caught off guard. She does come accross more as a world wise veteran - I don't recall if the novel states when and how old she joined the sisterhood. There might be, as in historical case, the opportunity for nobel women to "retire" later in life into the Sisterhood, or as a former soldier she could have felt a calling............
Had a long discussion about this on FFG forum with a person who was very knowledgable about the Sisters. There is indeed a good argument that the former "brides" of the Emperor after being abused by the High Lord whose name I forget may well be celebate but it might be such a part of their culture it was never actually enshrined in law. They were obviously not subject to rules of celabcy when the High Lord subverted the Daughters of the Emperor cult originally (or at the least had it changed?)
re the bloodtide - well it does say the return.
What might have been interesting if the Sisterhood were planted tX hundred / thousand years ago here to provide the required sacrifce to stop the tide?
The italicized text you posted seems to reflect on the late antique Church rather than the medieval Church that inspires 40k -- and the orders of the medieval Church most certainly had strict vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
About Vandire: what makes you think that the Sisters "were obviously not subject to rules of celibacy when the High Lord subverted them"? There's no evidence whatsoever that the "Brides" were not celibate. In fact, the only point about the Sisters at large to the contrary is that one low-brow joke by Sandy Mitchell.
About "retiring" into the Adepta: No, Sisters "take the cloth" at a young age, straight out of the Schola Progenium. This seems is the most current fluff, out of the DH book Blood of Martyrs. I'm sure Codex: Sisters of Battle will give a lot more detail, if not necessarily clarity. The SoB have not been blessed with a paucity of fluff contradictions.
I'll have a look back through the various codexes when I am back from work however I am fairly sure that Vandire used them as concubines as well as bodguards. You are right there is not a huge amount of info - I think the 2nd ed Sisters codex is best - I'll have a read when I get back..
This I recall being one of the very many reasons for their outrage and the revertion of their name back from Brides to Daughters.
There is equally no evidence they were celibate - its likely but not confirmed...........
Again I would have to look at the source material but is there anything that precludes someone taking the cloth at a later age? It would fit nicely with histroical precedance
I don't know enough about medieval churches to comment on the veracirty of the quote I grabbed from Google but a quick search did seem to suggest that the vow was about as well enforced as it was for male members of the clergy at the time. Didn't bishops etc have mistresses and concubines..........
Manchu wrote:The italicized text you posted seems to reflect on the late antique Church rather than the medieval Church that inspires 40k -- and the orders of the medieval Church most certainly had strict vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
Achem: you're confusing the Benedictine Rule with monasticism in general around this period. Most militant orders did not have vows of Chastity, indeed, many of them allowed married members and the ownership of property.
And, indeed, even if there were a vow of Chastity, if they were really based off religious orders of the period, then people not bothering to follow those vows would be a endemic problem even in the strictest orders.
Whether or not medieval monks and nuns all lived up to the vows they took really has little to do with the Adepta Sororitas. We know that the SoB are modeled after some combination of cloistered Christian nuns and the crusading martial orders. Taking vows -- particularly of chastity, poverty, and obedience -- was a fundamental part of that lifestyle.
As to the concubinage: It's hard to imagine Alicia Dominica as Goge Vandire's concubine.
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BaronIveagh wrote:Achem: you're confusing the Benedictine Rule with monasticism in general around this period. Most militant orders did not have vows of Chastity, indeed, many of them allowed married members and the ownership of property.
There is a big difference between a secular military order and a religious military order -- namely, the vows. THe religious military orders were monastic. Romantic liaisons have no licit place in any monastic lifestyle. That's my original point about the Sisters: let's say they don't take vows of chastity, like the crusading monks did -- it doesn't matter. They're still a religious order devoted to prayer and combat. There is no time in a Sister's day for screwing around, metaphorically or otherwise.
And, indeed, even if there were a vow of Chastity, if they were really based off religious orders of the period, then people not bothering to follow those vows would be a endemic problem even in the strictest orders.
Not really. That's like saying an Exorcist tank must be made out of brass since the organ pipes that inspired it were brass. The inspiration taken from (a modern view of) medieval culture by fluff authors in 40k is religious fanaticism and zealotry -- not the human failure to live up to those values. Once again, "realism" is not an important feature of 40k.
Alicia as a concubine: Given the usual imagery for SOB she was probably quite hot....and given Vandire's nature her submitting to him would likely appeal?
As Vandire was, in her mind, the direct emmisary of Emperor - she is hardly likely to hesitate to obey his commands in this if she did not quesiton anything else he did?
The Sisters of Battle Codex (1987) p11 states:
"The brides not only served as Vandire's bodyguard, but also as servants and companions..........they entertained him with singing, dancing and other, more exotic skills......"
and slightly less conclusively but I feel telling "Burning with shame and anger they renounced the name of Brides and once again became the Daughters of the Emperor" Repeated in Witchhunters Codex.
But surely you recognize a difference between sexually servicing the "direct emissary of the Emperor" and having no vows of chastity/engaging in physical romantic relationships?
Manchu wrote:But surely you recognize a difference between sexually servicing the "direct emissary of the Emperor" and having no vows of chastity/engaging in physical romantic relationships?
yep of course I was really answering your querry about Alicia and Vandire. I think the evidence clearly suggests that she and the other Brides served as concubines?
As I said its likely that given the Daughters originally "Worshipped the Emperor through Inner purity...........used a taxing learning process to clear their minds of all wordly considerations." they were celebate - but not automatic. Sex and romance are not the same - they may have seen sex as a biological function - not good or bad but something that was merely a distraction on the path to union with the Emperors light (or some such). They were a small Cult as this point and could have had all sorts of origins and inspirations. I agree that its likely that they discourage or even outlaw sex but I don't think in any "official" material other than Last Stand is the subject broached - and as you say earlier in the thread - anything else is fan fiction?
then again I have not yet got the new DH book so it might have changed....
I still don't find anything that stops someone entering the Sisterhood later in life (Unless it specifically says in the above book?)
As regards the possible sexual antics of the lovely space nuns, while I freely confess that my own suspicion is that the SoB are a hotbed of depravity behind closed doors (much like in that terrible Oliver Reed film about the nuns, the name of which escapes me), I'm inclined to say the body of evidence, such as there is and as I recollect it, does indeedat least imply a 'currently' celibate order.
Mr Morden wrote: I think the evidence clearly suggests that she and the other Brides served as concubines?
Yes, the implication of "more exotic skills" is pretty much conclusory. Personally, I'd like to see that retconned in the new book as it's not really necessary to the story in my opinion and is pure titillation (un-GrimDark).
Blood of Martyrs doesn't address romantic relationships of SoB. I don't think it's fan fiction to conclude, as a roleplayer or just as a fluff junky, that all the established facets of life in the Adepta Sororitas don't leave any logical place for romantic much less sexual involvement. The information we have from Last Stand is that they don't take vows of chastity. Even so, Sandy Mitchell's depiction of a Sister who's "just one of the boys" so to speak is ridiculous. That's a great example of an author not getting 40k as opposed to being over the top, like Mr. Ward. Mr. Mitchell also constantly refers to TechPriests being dressed in white robes, by the way. I don't think we can say that TechPriests wear white robes just because Mr. Mitchell is under the mistaken impression that they do.
Any way, what is clearly established about the Sisters of Battle doesn't contradict Ward's Bloodtide story.
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Mr Morden wrote:I still don't find anything that stops someone entering the Sisterhood later in life (Unless it specifically says in the above book?)
Luthor of the Dark Angels was made a Space Marine late in life. Now, that's a clear exception. I'm sure there are exceptions regarding Sororitas but we know for certain that Sisters come directly from the Schola Progenium as young women. I'm not sure how anyone could possibly retire into an order that requires a lifetime of combat expertise. I suppose that it'd be a simpler thing to retire into one of the minor orders, like Dialogous. Even then, I've never heard of it and I believe Blood of Martyrs is silent on the issue but I will definitely check it again.
Mr Morden wrote: I think the evidence clearly suggests that she and the other Brides served as concubines?
Yes, the implication of "more exotic skills" is pretty much conclusory. Personally, I'd like to see that retconned in the new book as it's not really necessary to the story in my opinion and is pure titillation (un-GrimDark).
I would have thought the opposite - isn't it extemely unpleasant / Grim-Dark to inflict himself upon them in this fashion =- entirely in fitting with both the Medieval inspiration and making sense given his character. This peversion(Alicias words) of her sacred order is IMO VERY Grim-Dark.
I didn't expect Blood of Martyrs to go into sexual / romantic - it was more the retiring into the Sisterhood thing that I was interested in.
re titillation not being Grimdark - er given the depcition of any and all females in 40K - are you kidding ?? (and long may it continue)
re the story in the present GK codex - I have no problem with the Sisters as depcited, no problem with the GK killing them - I personally am not comfortable with the annoiting in blood aspect for reasons others have outlined before.
I am less bothered by much of Driagos exploits - but the assualt on the Primarch and his bodyguard "Alone and unaided (according to the codex) is a little much for me.
gimme a break. It's because I am a fan of 
ed was great, this stuff lets it down. Badly. Next up the lone eldar guardian spanking a keeper of secrets before having slaanesh pleasure him in ways too mind boggling to print before going back to the craftworld free of any taint with a daemonette girlfriend or three? An extreme example, it's scarily a short step away.
or why do you assume I dont know where the endless debate in circles comes from? 
