I know the SoB have been presented as fetishized and I don't have any problem with that per se but Vandire sleeping with them is just kind of . . . trite. It would be like having a CSM army defeating an SoB army and then raping them. Talk about something that you'd expect from fan fiction but not in a codex. Yeah, both examples are horrible and "horrible" is generally an ingredient of GrimDarkness. Even so . . . I guess what strikes me as particularly off in this case is that Goge Vandire was the most powerful man in the galaxy. Is sex really a priority with someone like that? Surely, he gets his kicks by sacrificing planetary populations to his ego. By comparison, humping some reluctant nun would be a total snoozefest. Again, the best way I can describe it is as trite, uncreative, boring.

Let me ask you to clarify what makes you uncomfortable with the blood annointing (and also what you mean by uncomfortable).

re: Sisters and chastity. I know some folks don't hold to Daemonifuge, but there is a Sister there who dallies with someone from the Navis Nobilite, iirc.

Yes but isn't it illicit anyway (I mean, even in Daemonifuge)?

I think the reason Vandire got off on it is because he totally fooled the Daughters into thinking he was invested with the power of the Emperor and now he had these ridiculously pure women who were totally devoted to him.

Who wouldn't want to get down in that case?

I see what you are saying but again I don't think what he was doing was all about sex - again its an exercise of power in itself. Also lots of power hungry madmen did / do the same........and he was, unusually as far as I can tell just a man - no demonic influence or Xenos wiles - just a madman with too much power showing how dark humanity on its own can go.

I don't like the sorcery element - I was quite happy with ruthless psychic warriors rather than ruthless sorcerers. I would have been happier with The Sisters appeared un-corrupted but the Knights knew better than to take any chances and put them to the sword.

I guess if you are happy with the GKs being Sorcerers than it works but I do find it smacks to me of the very thing they fight. Its a taste thing I guess...........

Manchu wrote:Yes but isn't it illicit anyway (I mean, even in Daemonifuge)?

Very much so. In fact, her affair with the Navis allows Slannesh to corrupt her.

pretre wrote:Who wouldn't want to get down in that case?

Well, I've never had billions at my disposal. So I'd be more than happy to have my own retinue of warrior women concubines.


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Mr Morden wrote:I guess if you are happy with the GKs being Sorcerers than it works but I do find it smacks to me of the very thing they fight. Its a taste thing I guess...........

Yeah, I do like it. The contradiction was already present just in terms of psykers themselves. Ward sharpens the problematic nature of this by making the all out-and-out radicals. To me, this fits right into the whole Nikaea problem and adds another shade of ironic ambiguity to humanity's plight as backward, superstitious fanatics in M41 -- even the ones who know all the deep, dark secrets about everything.

Manchu wrote:
There is a big difference between a secular military order and a religious military order -- namely, the vows. THe religious military orders were monastic. Romantic liaisons have no licit place in any monastic lifestyle. That's my original point about the Sisters: let's say they don't take vows of chastity, like the crusading monks did -- it doesn't matter. They're still a religious order devoted to prayer and combat. There is no time in a Sister's day for screwing around, metaphorically or otherwise.

I was talking about religious military orders. Many of the had their own Rule, as opposed to the Benedictine Rule followed by non-militant orders. Not all of these included a vow of chastity.

Manchu wrote:Yes, the implication of "more exotic skills" is pretty much conclusory. Personally, I'd like to see that retconned in the new book as it's not really necessary to the story in my opinion and is pure titillation (un-GrimDark).

Blood of Martyrs doesn't address romantic relationships of SoB. I don't think it's fan fiction to conclude, as a roleplayer or just as a fluff junky, that all the established facets of life in the Adepta Sororitas don't leave any logical place for romantic much less sexual involvement. The information we have from Last Stand is that they don't take vows of chastity. Even so, Sandy Mitchell's depiction of a Sister who's "just one of the boys" so to speak is ridiculous. That's a great example of an author not getting 40k as opposed to being over the top, like Mr. Ward.

Actually, there's plenty of opportunity. Your assumption is that none of them are ever outside the convent.

Yes, how dare he have them act like real people do. And how dare existing fluff not match your ideas of GRIMDERP. It must be retconned at once!

Manchu wrote: Mr. Mitchell also constantly refers to TechPriests being dressed in white robes, by the way. I don't think we can say that TechPriests wear white robes just because Mr. Mitchell is under the mistaken impression that they do.

Um, Manchu, then Rick Preistly got that one wrong too. Since he wrote the two colors that a tech priests robes might be were white or rust red in Codex Imperalis and his article on the Titan Legions in WD, IIRC.

The white robes just aren't shown much in art.


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Manchu wrote:Yes but isn't it illicit anyway (I mean, even in Daemonifuge)?

In daemonifuge it may have been illicit because he was, you know, a mutant?

BaronIveagh wrote:Actually, there's plenty of opportunity. Your assumption is that none of them are ever outside the convent.

Yes, how dare he have them act like real people do. And how dare existing fluff not match your ideas of GRIMDERP. It must be retconned at once!

I really don't understand your point here. Wherever they go, Battle Sisters work in military units under discipline. They're a religious order. They don't take leave or go on vacation. In fact, they're not "real people." Aside from being fictional, they aren't in any way supposed to be like people in the real world. And in any case, why do you assume that all "real people" desire sexual or even romantic relationships? Why would this even be pertinent to talking about 40k? Next you'll be insisting that Space Marines have girlfriends. Because that's how real people act, or something.

BaronIveagh wrote:Um, Manchu, then Rick Preistly got that one wrong too. Since he wrote the two colors that a tech priests robes might be were white or rust red in Codex Imperalis and his article on the Titan Legions in WD, IIRC.

Mr. Priestly didn't get it wrong when he, you know, made it up. But the fluff has moved on since 1993. One among many things that hasn't survived that period is white-robed TechPriests. Except in Mr. Mitchell's stories. We also don't have half-Eldar Space Marines, not that Mr. Priestly got that one wrong, either.

Manchu wrote:I really don't understand your point here. Wherever they go, Battle Sisters work in military units under discipline. They're a religious order. They don't take leave or go on vacation. In fact, they're not "real people." Aside from being fictional, they aren't in any way supposed to be like people in the real world. And in any case, why do you assume that all "real people" desire sexual or even romantic relationships? Why would this even be pertinent to talking about 40k? Next you'll be insisting that Space Marines have girlfriends. Because that's how real people act, or something.

Actually, they go out alone all the time, if, you know, fluff, is to be believed. Blood of Martyrs lists all sorts of occasions that Sisters are detached, and move between orders, and even do leave the order.

And, when writing a novel, it actually is important to write things that people connect with, otherwise they get bored and put the novel down. And, while not all 'real people' do desire said, it's a fairly common desire for some degree of romance or lust (or both). While I'm sure there are plenty of the 'psychotic sisterhood' that hate everything that lives other then the Emperor and gleefully slaughter to a degree that does Khorne proud, real people have interests beyond 'Religion' and 'Violance'. And most of the ones that don't seem to actually join the Red Redemption.

Manchu wrote:Mr. Priestly didn't get it wrong when he, you know, made it up. But the fluff has moved on since 1993. One among many things that hasn't survived that period is white-robed TechPriests. Except in Mr. Mitchell's stories. We also don't have half-Eldar Space Marines, not that Mr. Priestly got that one wrong, either.

Sorry, it's never been retconned, and was refereed to as recently as 4th edition outside Sandy's books, it's just commonly overlooked, rather then wrong. Like Female IG or that space marine strike cruisers can have lances instead of bombardment cannons.

BaronIveagh wrote:Blood of Martyrs lists all sorts of occasions that Sisters are detached, and move between orders, and even do leave the order.

I'll have to re-read it but I'm pretty sure going off to play cards with the gang and then a little bump and grind is not mentioned.

BaronIveagh wrote: While I'm sure there are plenty of the 'psychotic sisterhood' that hate everything that lives other then the Emperor and gleefully slaughter to a degree that does Khorne proud, real people have interests beyond 'Religion' and 'Violance'.

'Romantic interest' is not the only possible option outside of 'Religion' and 'Violence.' There are plenty of ways to flesh out a female character other than relationships and sex.

Additionally, explicit retconning just isn't necessary. Ian Watson's Inquisition War (aside from the Squats) is a good example. Or how SoB used to be the ones who kept SM in line.

Manchu wrote:I'll have to re-read it but I'm pretty sure going off to play cards with the gang and then a little bump and grind is not mentioned.

No, bump and grind are not directly mentioned in BoM, though one must wonder where they might have learned their 'more exotic skills', card playing, however, seems to be a common passtime among inquisitorial acolytes. What is mentioned is extended solo deployment or frequent deployment in very small groups, both for extended periods.


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Manchu wrote:'Romantic interest' is not the only possible option outside of 'Religion' and 'Violence.' There are plenty of ways to flesh out a female character other than relationships and sex.

Additionally, explicit retconning just isn't necessary. Ian Watson's Inquisition War (aside from the Squats) is a good example. Or how SoB used to be the ones who kept SM in line.

Bad examples, as both have been explicitly retconned.

And, yes, there are. I've even used them on occasion. However, at some point you need to have some interaction between characters, and where there is interaction, people will tend to like or dislike one another. Having all of the characters totally neutral toward one another is highly unrealistic and makes a very boring novel.

I'll throw you for a real loop, it's quite possible that a chaste romance between an SoB and a fellow acolyte turns into something else in an inquisitor's retinue.

After all, what happens in the Inquisition STAYS in the Inquisition.

BaronIveagh wrote:though one must wonder where they might have learned their 'more exotic skills'

Lol, so in addition to chanting litanies and polishing boltguns, the Orders pass on some kind of courtesan skillset? We may both be able to imagine it but it's just wishful thinking.

Manchu wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:though one must wonder where they might have learned their 'more exotic skills'

Lol, so in addition to chanting litanies and polishing boltguns, the Orders pass on some kind of courtesan skillset? We may both be able to imagine it but it's just wishful thinking.

IIRC The Order Famulous does, on occasion, serve as Courtesans. Since sisters can freely move between orders...

BaronIveagh wrote:I'll throw you for a real loop, it's quite possible that a chaste romance between an SoB and a fellow acolyte turns into something else in an inquisitor's retinue.

I have nothing against this at all -- the reason being that it's an exception, an unforeseen development that is interesting precisely because it's extraordinary. But I am contrasting that to the idea that Sisters in general don't lead celibate lives as part of their monastic careers. In fact, even within the convent walls, I have no doubt that romantic attachments would form and be the source of a great deal of consternation for everyone involved. But, again, we're delving into fan fiction instead of talking about the character of the faction as established by the sources.

Look, it's stated that the Sisters can freely move between orders, both militant and non-militant. The Famulous deal with political intrigue and extensive people breeding programs as advisers, chamberlains, and courtesans to manipulate political events.

It's also stated they were 'serving' Vandire. Though one must wonder, as it strikes me as power armor would chafe.

Manchu wrote:Mr. Priestly didn't get it wrong when he, you know, made it up. But the fluff has moved on since 1993. One among many things that hasn't survived that period is white-robed TechPriests. Except in Mr. Mitchell's stories. We also don't have half-Eldar Space Marines, not that Mr. Priestly got that one wrong, either.

Wasn't the tech-priest from Inquisitor dressed in white? Delphan Gruss IIRC?

Just checked. Yep.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat490043a&prodId=prod1110220

Wait, so what?

As for this free movement, it's not really possible in the sort of flagrant sense you're suggesting. Each order is associated with a very particular skill set. I could see a Sister moving between orders maybe once in her life, no more. I have no recollection of Sisters Famulous acting as courtesans, either. Is this something you read in Blood of Martyrs?


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zerodemon wrote:Wasn't the tech-priest from Inquisitor dressed in white? Delphan Gruss IIRC?

Good find but that's even older than the seven-year-old reference the Baron already offered.

power armor would chafe

Quite. Though I suspect their power-bondage corsets and FMBs are anointed with an anti-chafing unguent. Not that I've given the matter much thought. Oh no.

Seriously though, your view (which I don't say is wrong) has them more like Bene Gesserit in a way whilst Manchu's rather prissy holy virgins do seem to me to be rather more 40K where sex isn't really the done thing.

Well, in all fairness, the Baron's view, as far as the Orders Famulous manipulating noble births and so forth, is totally accurate. And you're absolutely right about it's source, by th way (similar to navigators between Dune and 40k, among other things).

BoM just mentions how often they are exposed to the perverted side of the nobility and how they will not discuss their work. It does mention them working as maidservants and chatelaines.

They also get the 'Decadent' advance.

It's not clear how often inter order movement takes place. It's suggested that members of one order move to another if for some reason, thy are not able to carry out their duties for one they move to another for the duration of their infirmity.

IIRC the 'red and white' robes are mentioned again in Dark Heresy. So, yeah, sorry, current.

BaronIveagh wrote:IIRC the 'red and white' robes are mentioned again in Dark Heresy. So, yeah, sorry, current.

Again, I don't recall this and I played a TechPriest in Dark Heresy. Will check it out, however.

Well in a way it comes back to the point you made about the codices being somewhat vague and innacurate. It allows the SoB to be all thing to all men (as it were). Holy whores or (and other background material?) Vestal Virgins or points inbetween and everyone can be happy. It being some years since I read much SoVB background though, I'm fascinated by the exchanges thus far.

At the end of the day, it's hard to talk in absolute terms about any part of 40k. There's a lot of galaxy out there. The Sisters have tons and tons of orders and suborders. To say no SoB has ever been anyone's lover is impossible. To say that it doesn't fit with the established character of the militant orders, however, is another thing.

Manchu wrote:Again, I don't recall this and I played a TechPriest in Dark Heresy. Will check it out, however.

Ascension, page 74, the Magos has it thrown back over the red robes, page 104, we have the red robe over the white like a long coat. Magos Vathek, on page 201 is wearing a soiled version of the white robes. The most common seems to be a red cloak or coat over a white robe, or red on red with white trim on the outer cloak.

At first I was begrudgingly ok with The Draigo-Mortarion bullcrap because I mistakenly thought that he was not alone in that fight. However, as another dakkanaught pointed out the true story is earlier in the codex. Not only was Draigo alone but Mortarion was not. He had his retinue with him which was most likely Daemon princes. He bowls over the bodyguards and bitch slaps a daemon primarch to the ground and carves his predeccessor's name in Mortarion's heart. I'm sorry, this is poor writing. Far, far worse than the Sisters thing. Mortarion deserves better than this. Some people try to insult Ward by saying that sounds like bad fanfic but the truth is a fan wouldn't even write something like that because its just so over the top they know their character would be called a Sue because of it.

The pupose of this is to show how super badass Draigo is but it has the opposite effect. It's just dumb. In fact I find Asdrubael Vect to be more of a badass because of his well written story where he rises up from being a slave to the de facto ruler of Commoragh. He's such a badass that he used The Imperium's Space Marines to obliterate all of his foes at once and made them think it was their idea. I wish Ward would take some cues from Kelly and realize that a well thought out back story where a character struggles to overcome many conflicts actually makes him more cool than "My guy became Chapter master in only 100 years and then totally pwned a Daemon-Primarch".

Manchu wrote:At the end of the day, it's hard to talk in absolute terms about any part of 40k. There's a lot of galaxy out there. The Sisters have tons and tons of orders and suborders. To say no SoB has ever been anyone's lover is impossible. To say that it doesn't fit with the established character of the militant orders, however, is another thing.

I don't think anyone's seriosuly suggested that 'Bump and Grind' is par for the course at a Sister Convent.

It doesn't really detract from the possibility of Sandy Mitchell's account, where the Sister was quite detached from any convent, but I did have to roll my eyes at the flirtations between the Commissar cadets and Sister initiates.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
It doesn't really detract from the possibility of Sandy Mitchell's account, where the Sister was quite detached from any convent, but I did have to roll my eyes at the flirtations between the Commissar cadets and Sister initiates.

Why? Kids act that way (since it's implied that they are fairly far off the beaten path, only a half dozen novitiates are even considered competent with training power armor, IIRC). And, as Cain himself notes, it's unlikely to go further then that.

It doesn't really detract from the possibility of Sandy Mitchell's account, where the Sister was quite detached from any convent, but I did have to roll my eyes at the flirtations between the Commissar cadets and Sister initiates.

Most of the 40K fluff posits adulthood at 16 standard years of age, so initiates and Commissars-in-training are not yet adults by even the Imperium's standards. They're younger teens... flirtatious behavior is to be expected.

Also, while the SoB image as "nuns with guns" is ubiquitous to the setting, the Imperium doesn't have a Catholic Church to base its foundation on. This imagery is a direct reference to real-life elements, as a benefit to players. While it's possible that some orders and convents of the Sisters take vows of chastity, this does not mean they all do. The galaxy is a really big place.

People think about what you are arguing about I mean really
we have got a universe were orks fight with futuristic knights,
inquisition, aliens, super high tech aliens and deamons in space if you think about it it is ridiculous. It is cool but a bit silly the guys at GW have fun with it.

It's written in the Codex that Sisters of Battle rarely have any contact with anyone from outside the order, and generally only the highest ranking of the order with have any dealings with people from outside their order.

No vow of chastity necessary. Oh, and before it starts, yes homosexuality would still be possible within the order, and did occur within real-life monastic orders that had a similar structure. This wouldn't preclude them from being virgins in a biological sense I hope I don't have to explain.

Not sure if I follow... what .. you are saying there, htj


I think really it is open to interpretation, you could make an argument for either side, and feel comfortable with the interpretation. I don't think it's as clear-cut as the issue with Marine relationships however, they are engineered to be something post-human. Otherwise, I think when considering a normal humans biology, even the strictest monastic orders might have had issue with relationships forming, whether they were tolerated or not.

biohazardcake wrote:People think about what you are arguing about I mean really
we have got a universe were orks fight with futuristic knights,
inquisition, aliens, super high tech aliens and deamons in space if you think about it it is ridiculous. It is cool but a bit silly the guys at GW have fun with it.

What does that even mean? What on Earth are you saying? Please improve your grammar so that we can understand.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!

Just sayin. . . .

iproxtaco wrote:

biohazardcake wrote:People think about what you are arguing about I mean really
we have got a universe were orks fight with futuristic knights,
inquisition, aliens, super high tech aliens and deamons in space if you think about it it is ridiculous. It is cool but a bit silly the guys at GW have fun with it.

What does that even mean? What on Earth are you saying? Please improve your grammar so that we can understand.

I am saying that warhammer 40k is fairly silly ,cool and all but silly and I love 40k for it.

No. No no no no no. These things are important. 40k, while ridiculous at times, is still a fictional universe, with established rules and norms. If a particular fluff piece seems incongruous with established fluff, we will debate it. In case you didn't notice, this is the 40k background forum. It is here specifically to debate this kind of stuff. If you don't like this kind of discussion, then don't read it.
/rant

Back on topic, I have to agree with some of the earlier posters. While it may not explicitly say that the sisters are chaste, we can pretty much assume as much. Besides, where would they find the time to have a relationship? I doubt that space nun convents have a great dating scene.

Guildsman wrote:
Back on topic, I have to agree with some of the earlier posters. While it may not explicitly say that the sisters are chaste, we can pretty much assume as much. Besides, where would they find the time to have a relationship? I doubt that space nun convents have a great dating scene.

Well, one, it's not clear how much time they actually spend in the convents. IIRC in Faith and Fire and Blood of Martyrs, it's implied that the sisters actually spend much of their lives 'on deployment', and, in most of the BL books that sisters appear in, contact between the main headquarters and the orders minoris is.... irregular at best. In all honesty, I think that, considering that movement between orders is not uncommon, that viewing them though the lens of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood that were freely copied ...errr...based off of (see the illo of one in Blood of Martyrs and then Watch Lynch's version of Dune) with a dash of female medieval militant order thrown in for extra grimderp would make a lot of sense.

Faith and Fire did tend to focus on Celestians though. The majority of Sisters may be based at a central location.

Though the problems in communication between orders and convents is entirely expected, given that we are talking about the Imperium here.

I'd just like to point out that we're probably not going to see too many novels published about the Battle Sisters not, er, battling. So of course we see them in deployment most of the time we see them. I can't imagine a group of DH players getting together for the "never leave the convent" campaign, either.

Manchu wrote:I'd just like to point out that we're probably not going to see too many novels published about the Battle Sisters not, er, battling. So of course we see them in deployment most of the time we see them. I can't imagine a group of DH players getting together for the "never leave the convent" campaign, either.

The point was, however, that they talk about how rare it is they get back to the convent, not that we never see them at it.

It was really boring. Granted, they finally raped the last sister and then torched the place, but...

(To say they eagerly look forward to Black Crusade is an understatement)

Again, my dear Baron, I feel like we must have different copies of BoM.

Manchu wrote:Again, my dear Baron, I feel like we must have different copies of BoM.

It might be noted they were not playing AS the sisters, they were playing WITH the sisters...

Though Martyrs were, arguably, made.

It's quite saddening to read the threads posted these days, nearly all of them devolve into talking about Grey Knights or Ward in general. The thing that really gets me it that many haterz have never read a Matt Ward codex, never collected said armies and have never played against them, so are therefore riding the Bandwagon.

The main arguments against Matt Ward are -
His rules are broken and unbalanced
His rules are over-powered
He has a poor grasp of writing techniques
He writes over the top characters
He has a poor understanding of the 40k universe

Would anyone like to try and argue these points?

iproxtaco wrote:It's quite saddening to read the threads posted these days, nearly all of them devolve into talking about Grey Knights or Ward in general. The thing that really gets me it that many haterz have never read a Matt Ward codex, never collected said armies and have never played against them, so are therefore riding the Bandwagon.

The main arguments against Matt Ward are -
His rules are broken and unbalanced
His rules are over-powered
He has a poor grasp of writing techniques
He writes over the top characters
He has a poor understanding of the 40k universe

Would anyone like to try and argue these points?

1) Dreadknights type becoming jump infantry. Flying librarian dreadnoughts.
2) Teleporting Land Raiders with no terrain on the table.
3) Not really gonna carve into his technique per se, but he doesn't seem able to make the sort of compelling characters that most people would find interesting.
4) The sheer number of Draigo = Chuck Norris jokes alone should say all that needs to be said.
5) Arguably, no one understands the 40k universe. There is no canon. All that exists is a sort of consensus. Since what Ward has written seems to be diametrically opposed to the majority interpretation, then, yes, his understanding of it is weak.



Edit: Oh my dear god. I just read what I pray is only a rumor that Ward will next defile my beloved Black Templars.



Where is a hero when you need one?

Thank you for the response, I'd like this thread to get back on course.

1) I fully understand that he has written rules that many people disagree with, and those two are good examples. The point I was trying to make is that he doesn't write broken SETS of rules. Each of his codex's have been powerful, and quite internally balanced. Each has the capability to take on any list with multiple builds.
2) I guess this point could be combined with the first. Like I said, each codex is powerful, but balanced often more powerful than previous codices written by other authors. When their is a particularly powerful rule in an already powerful codex, said rule becomes over-powered. This is not a defence of the rule, I agree that little thought went into this particular example.
3) He seems to use a lot of very descriptive words and words like 'thus'. None of his stories are convuluted, but I have to admit that a few can get a bit over the top, The Purging of Jollona being the only example in the Grey Knights codex I could find. His technique does make the text appealing to me, and their is hopefully no, or very few grammatical mistakes in a published product.
4) Draigo I will exempt, general cunsensis is that he is a ridiculous character and that little thought went into how the community would react. The other characters I think are some of the best produced by GW in recent years (just my opinion on that part). Crowe for example has another side to him apart from the all-powerful leader of the purifiers. The Daemon sword that he safeguards is another duty on top of his duty as a Grey Knight. It constantly whispers to him, tries to tempt him into using the swords true power and fall to Chaos. He's been put in a very difficult position. He doubtless sometimes nearly loses his faith, almost falls to its temptation. Mordrak is the second character. He's haunted by why happened to his brothers. His psychic might imprinted their memories into him, and now they appear to protect him when he is in danger. He is deeply disturbed by their presence, and is driven to put them to rest by killing Huron Blackheart.
5) Not too much of the fluff contradicts previous fluff directly. It's either expansion, or brand new. You've alwasy got ot remember that fluff changes over time, but I think it should be an evolution, rather than a direct contradiction. I agree that few, if any, people have a good grasp of the 40k universe as a whole, but Ward seems to have worked well within his context. The Grey Knights have kept their image and place in the universe whilst evolving to better fit their role in the Imperium.

The main point I want to make is that much of the hate for Matt Ward is in the majority, unfounded, over-exaggerated, or coming from people hopping the the Bandwagon. I gladly accept valid points from people who actually read the codices and then form their opinions.

Can someone give me an example of a direct contradiction in fluff?

The closest I can come is that GK will now work with daemonhosts.

That would be the one very obvious example. I know Grey Knights are supposed to be radical, using the Warp against Daemons. But actively working with the Daemonic is a tad too far.

Manchu wrote:Can someone give me an example of a direct contradiction in fluff?

The closest I can come is that GK will now work with daemonhosts.

IIRC Coteaz was a puritan, now he has radical leanings. Previously Titan still orbited Saturn. Previously it was the Inquisition that was implied to secretly know how to resurrect the Emperor, not the Grey Knights. Previously the entire reason that the Imperum's starships had a minimum size around a kilometer was that it took that much space for the hardware, even in the past, to give the ship a Geller field strong enough to protect inside. Now it fits in a dreadnaught, but starships still have the same minimum size, because recent fluff still insists that they have to be a km long or so to produce a Geller field. I don't mind fluff inconsistencies between current and past editions but both these contradicting statements were in two books published less then a month apart.

You're stating contradictions, that's fine, but go into more detail and give us the sources of these contradictions.

I thought Titan still does orbit Saturn.
It's not implied that the Grey Knights know how to resurrect the Emperor. They have the last resort, if this were resurrecting the Emperor, they would do it.

There are many ships smaller than a km that traverse the warp. The rest aren't inconsistancies just story developement. You'll have to be more specific with Cortez.


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I guess going from 3000 GKs to 1000 is a contradiction. It's a retcon but all retcons are contradictions.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There are many ships smaller than a km that traverse the warp. The rest aren't inconsistancies just story developement. You'll have to be more specific with Cortez.


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I guess going from 3000 GKs to 1000 is a contradiction. It's a retcon but all retcons are contradictions.

Not anymore. The official smallest warp capable ship (in a rule book) is the Viper class scout sloop, at 0.95km long. So, I suppose you are correct, as it's 50m under a km, and is approximately the same dimensions as the Wandering Star from Eye of Terror. There are a few examples of unique craft that are smaller in BL novels, however, it might be pointed out that all of them suffer from the phrase 'unique and none understand how it works' because the author wants to emulate the Millennium Falcon dynamic while acknowledging that it totally breaks fluff for starships.

There's many civilian craft that are not ginormous. You're not going to find cruise liners and private yachts in the rule books.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's many civilian craft that are not ginormous. You're not going to find cruise liners and private yachts in the rule books.

Point of fact, most of those are either not warp capable, or can be in excess of 16 km long(!). (Thank you, FFG for providing stats for all sorts of interesting civilian vessels)

Remember that warp travel is extremely rare, with the only 'legal' ships belonging to either the battlefleet, chartist captains, Rogue Traders, the Inquisition, or some other 'offical' body. Not that many 'illegal' operations don't also operate, but even those made outside of the Imperium and forged of archeotech and heresy (Hello Shrike Class!) are still above the 1km limit.

The number one, easiest to build and maintain ship ever devised by humans, the Iconoclast, (A ship so easy to fix it has a special rule for it in RT, making it the Rhino of Rogue Trader) is still 1.3km long.

What does any of this have to with dreadnaughts?