Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history) are worth less individually than guardsman, when you ignore the fact that their equipment is better than that of stormtroopers. Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

Obviously the game can't/won't represent almost any units correctly, but I felt this was a fairly obvious hole.

/rant

TL;DR Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

I think the main factor is Age.

Tau have a typical lifespan of 40 terran years. Humans can live to be around 80-90 without Juvnat treatments, and be functional fighters for most of that time.

Guardsmen, especially veterans who have been fighting for 20+ years, will have the potential to see more combat and have more practice then a Fire Warrior who won't see nearly as much.

Warp travel, with its superior speed, can allow an individual guardsmen to see a multitude of combat arenas with various terrain types and a plethera of foes to hone his skills against. the Tau method of travel is slightly slower and combined with their short lives means that a Fire Warrior will, compared to a human, only begin to have skill comperable to an experienced human at around the time he will be a retiring Shas'el or Shas'o.


a Stormtrooper on the other hand, will have spent a greater amount of time fighting overall against more foes. You could fit an average Tau lifespan quite easily within the time a Stormtrooper is on active combat duty.


the Inititive thing is, quite simply, a physical definition. Humans are stronger and tougher then a Tau is and have faster reflexes. the strength and toughness isn't enough for a stat difference in the game, but the inititive is.

One reason GW gives is by saying that Tau eyes don't change focus as fast as a humans do. they have comperable vision, with only a slight difficulty at long distances compared to humans, but their refocusing time is much slower. as a result, a Tau could have trouble quickly adjusting to a fast approaching enemy. an individual who is trying to engage a far off foe suddenly finds himself in close combat. his eyes simply can't refocus fast enough for him to react.

the Tau way of warfare also focuses on ranged combat, while their culture says it is an uncivilized way of fighting. This is natural, seeing as Tau are evolved from plains dwelling herbivores and not any sort of Carnivore or Omnivore. I am not sure if the Tau are an omnovirous species, I would guess that they are but it is possable for them to be Herbivores. this might be why they find the Kroot practice of eating the dead so utterly revolting and not simply a little gross.

Tau fire warriors were hunters back before the Ethereals, so they were mostly carnivorous.

And physically, an average male Tau of the fire caste is physically similar to a human female in stature, though broader of shoulder.

And their eyesight at a distance is actually superior to that of humans, as they see a wider spectrum, though I concede that they do have slower pupil dilation.

And their training would actually be of comparable length to that of a storm trooper, since they sleep about 3 hours a day and would be of an age to start training earlier, around 3 years of age whereas stormtroopers (and just about everyone in the schola progenium) start at six. and the firewarriors would be of an age to begin combat at around 8-10 years (and their marksmanship would undoubtably exceed that of stormtroopers since their training would be marksmanship heavy compared to the melee and marksmanship the stormtroopers would go through.

That puts the military career of a tau FW at around thrity years, 21h a day (10-40, though I believe their lifespan is closer to 50 years, making it up to 40 years of war)

Compared to The twenty to thirty years a stormtrooper would be combat-capable (18-40/ 18-50 [but that's a stretch]) for around 16h a day.

Tau have (usually) longer military careers, and so should have better statlines than they currently do.

im2randomghgh wrote:Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history) are worth less individually than guardsman, when you ignore the fact that their equipment is better than that of stormtroopers. Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

Obviously the game can't/won't represent almost any units correctly, but I felt this was a fairly obvious hole.

/rant

TL;DR Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

Tau have naturally poor depth-perception, actually their eyesight kind of sucks in general if I remember right.

BS3 is is harder for a Tau to work to than a human, if I am remembering my fluff right.

It is only their pupil dilation that is inferior, they actually have superior vision in all other regards.

They can see ultra-violet/infra-red

But not the broad side of the earth caste storage unit.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And their training would actually be of comparable length to that of a storm trooper, since they sleep about 3 hours a day and would be of an age to start training earlier, around 3 years of age whereas stormtroopers (and just about everyone in the schola progenium) start at six. and the firewarriors would be of an age to begin combat at around 8-10 years (and their marksmanship would undoubtably exceed that of stormtroopers since their training would be marksmanship heavy compared to the melee and marksmanship the stormtroopers would go through.

This I agree with. Tau should have better BS then a guardsmen.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That puts the military career of a tau FW at around thrity years, 21h a day (10-40, though I believe their lifespan is closer to 50 years, making it up to 40 years of war)

Compared to The twenty to thirty years a stormtrooper would be combat-capable (18-40/ 18-50 [but that's a stretch]) for around 16h a day.

Tau have (usually) longer military careers, and so should have better statlines than they currently do.

IIRC, the Tau codex says 40 years is the average lifespan, but since my Nephew started Tau and I gave him all my Tau stuff I no longer can check this.

right now, a Human in fit condition is perfectly combat condition well into their 50s. assume induction at 16-18 years, that is at least the same amount of time a human and Tau would be combat capable. Stormtroopers could easily have access to at least mid level Juvnat treatment(Stormtroopers would be valuable soldiers and prolonging their life would probably be a good investment for the Imperium. it would be cheaper to keep an existing stormtrooper living and fighting longer then it would be to train a new one)


I would say that stormtroopers could easily do battle well into their 60s and 70s with juvnats. that is some conjecture on my part, but its logical.

Tau having such a low BS when they have no close combat capability and Fire Warriors (elite warriors trained from birth in the art of combat) having the same BS as Imperial Guardsman is one of the atrocities of the Tau Codex and hopefully be rectified when a new one comes out. It makes basically no sense from a fluff point of view and from a game point of view is one of the primary reasons Tau are so hard to play.

Tau may be better at ranged attacks then they are in CC, but does that really put them on par with Space Marines?

im2randomghgh wrote:Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history) are worth less individually than guardsman, when you ignore the fact that their equipment is better than that of stormtroopers. Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

Obviously the game can't/won't represent almost any units correctly, but I felt this was a fairly obvious hole.

/rant

TL;DR Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

Well, firstly Spartans aren't the most elite fighting force in the history of mankind. They were impressive, to be sure, but don't let 300 cloud things.

And as to the disparities between Fire Warriors and Imperial Guardsmen in Assault: No, the Tau do not cover basic agility training as part of their Fire Caste induction. The Tau view combat at close quarters as barbaric and utterly unnecessary. The Fire Caste view on it is that if a Tau Warrior has become engaged in hand to hand combat, he has done something wrong. It's a very narrow and inflexible mind-set, part and parcel of their way of war. They likely could be decent at it if they trained for it (Farsight Enclave), but the simple fact is that they don't. They make it a POINT to not prepare for it. That's why they have Kroot. Best not to waste their time.

Also, 'being raised from childhood' to do something does not necessarily mean you are super awesome at things. The quality of the training is what matters. Yes, Tau Fire Warriors are raised 'from birth' training to fight. Training to fight in the Tau way of war. Which pretty much means firing his Pulse Rifle at neat little targets on the firing range, riding around in his grav tank, and learning small-unit tactics. Storm Troopers are raised from a very young age as well, however, their training is more akin to Navy SEAL training, the entire duration of it. Endurance, thinking under stress, reaction times, 'combat' marksmanship (as opposed target range marksmanship), all of these things at nigh-insane levels, to the point where more than a few don't even survive the training. I think that this more than justifies the stat differences between Tau and Storm Troopers.

Fire Warriors are just fine.

It is their technology that sets them apart, not their training or any 'alien' level of biological coolness.

It's their points cost that is idiotic.

Next book they'll be BS3 but 8 pts.

I'm calling it now.

Even then they will only be taken because they are scoring and the points drop will be used to get more suits.

Fire Warriors basically only bring a Marker Light to the field. their pulse weapons are basically a distracting piece of shiny stuff.

Well there are few differences....
I think I can safely compare them with Cadians ( since they share similar in some manners ).

-They are both raised as kids to be solders ( difference is that Tau Fire Cast have different physiology then other Tau while Cadian is same as any other human ).
-They both have farely good equipment ( no matter what people think - Lasgun is not that weak riffle. While FW has a better equipment [ infrared, night-vision, comm unit...] but his rifle is not that better [ their plasma rifles are actually weaker than Imperial ones but more stable ] ).
-They are both fanatical warriors ( Tau fight for the Grater Good and Etherials without any doubt, Cadian fight for Mankind survival and the Emperor [ but giving Human nature and what are they fighting they are issued a moral officer ] ).
-They both use good strategies in various combat situations ( Tau FW follows 2 fighting styles one implements speed and other patience, Cadians follow Human tactics that are millennium and older and that are still working ).

Now differences:

-Combat experience ( let us face it, any Cadian would have grater combat experience then Tau FW ).
-Enemies ( while Tau main enemy thus far was Impeirum, few Ork raids, one small Tyranids fleet... Cadians faced gak and feth for over 10.000 years [ pretty much everything galaxy can throw on Mankind ] ).
-Population ( main reason why Tau FW have better equipment is because they are small in numbers and easy to equip with better things, Cadians on the other hand have millions of solder all across the galaxy and millions at home... ).


I don't think those statistics are mistake, in Fluff FW is as fragile as Guardsman. They should only have a 1 better BS - but nothing more. And keep in mind the verity of Guardsman in the galaxy, some are weak as Grots and some are strong as Space Marines ( Tanith for example ). Whiel FW are almost all the same in fighting style and equipment.

im2randomghgh wrote:Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood

like orks, nids, etc..
oh wait. Those start sooner. Maybe we should raise their abilities too?

im2randomghgh wrote:
(like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

im2randomghgh wrote:are worth less individually than guardsmen..

You forgot the guardswomen...

im2randomghgh wrote:Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

10 years of training vs years of combat experience. Guard doesn't sit around...
Train all you want in imaginary battles. Can't make up for real fights, where no security level prevents harm and opponents may fight dirty.
Initiative is low, obviously when indoctrinated with dogmas like greater good and a warfare style of evading close combat it does not bode well for those willing to adapt, like farsight has done. Tau will be stuck in their own ways.
Thus, allied kroot, more able bodied to react fast in hth, may stay the approach of Tau to this.

im2randomghgh wrote:They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

*Looks at the amount of stormtroopers on the tables nowadays. *
Ok, make them rare. And expensive.

im2randomghgh wrote: Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

Or overrated, depending on the POV.

Basic troops shouldn't be compared to elites.

Looking forward to BS 5-6 space marines, BS 7 eldar rangers , etc...not to forget the tyranids, who could improve their BS just because they adapt and rapidly evolve so give them BS 10+

Instead of throwing such "bait the imagined haterz" thread into the background forum, maybe open the debate for a change of the d6 system to d10 or higher, something which may represent the scale of BS far better than the actual system does.

They have been avoiding making teenaged SM players cry by limiting the aliens

Eldar even though they paid 50pts for the 3 shot star cannons that could easily kill marines, got the price and shots reduced because Teeny Mariney's cried.

Tau Plasma rifles already started at 16pts and 1 S lower than Human Plasma, but also did not overheat,,,but Tau plasma could do nothing against AV13. Still, GW listened to the cries of Teeny Marineys and bumped the Tau Plasma to a full 20pts making it worth the price of 2 Marine plasma rifles with no change to the Tau weapon at all.

Improve the Tau stat lines and they will scream again at GW to make them more expensive or gimp something else so the less experienced teeny marineys can have an easy time getting that victory.

Codex creep has made SW/GK/BA all too simple a choice as they out fight Vanilla marines as it is unless the scenario and the vanilla player is a good tactician and his dice roll nice.

But there are too many things that make it almost impossible to stop like a charge of Thunder wolves for example. For the 10pts a FW is I say that they are over costed, they dropped a IG down to basically 5pts a man, and they can easily drop Tau FW's down a few points as the kit is so easily negated at times as to be laughable.

1) They have carapace, A) so do others and those armies also have a lot of AP4, negating that carapace.

2) The Pulse rifle has the best range. A) with so many speedy units out there, it is easy to make that null and void, or tool up stuff to 2+ or 3+ making it hard to take down.

3) Tau are so shooty, A) True, but with IG stat, they hit 50% most times, and then in CC they get eaten up pretty fast, unless one has good luck with the die rolls or the enemy whiffs with power weapons.

Firewarriors have 2 choice for starting the game, footslogging, or a devilfish. Stormies have Grav chutes, valkyries, and chimeras as well as infiltration and outflanking. PLUS they have that BS4 even if fresh out of the schola progenium.

and they come with Krak and frag as part of their kit along with a shorter ranged gun but it is AP3 afterall.
I would say 7pts would be more apt for FW teams.

I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
(like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

im2randomghgh wrote:are worth less individually than guardsmen..

You forgot the guardswomen...

This is to much even for me

And if Spartans are "the most elite fighting force in human history" what is then French Foreign Legion, British SAS, US SEAL's.... the uber-elite fighting force in human history?

And woman can serve the army to....

Exactly not like the Persian Immortals weren't highly-trained well-to-do sons of persian families.

Or the Samurai with their quite similar rigourous training and peaceful meditation.

How about the well-armed French Musketeers with state-of-the-art weaponry, armour, and great amounts of training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To name just a few "Elite" fighting forces

Brother Coa wrote:
And if Spartans are "the most elite fighting force in human history" what is then French Foreign Legion, British SAS, US SEAL's.... the uber-elite fighting force in human history?

If we leave technology out of the picture, the Spartens could actually be considered an equal, if not superior, elite force compared to those formations.

Warrior cultures breed excellent warriors. the Spartens were under complete militarization. France, England, and the US are most certaintly not(especially the FFL, which largely isn't even made up of frenchmen)

Spartens are trained from Birth, in those modern units you don't begin training until you are 18-20. if you were even slightly weak, you got left outside the walls to die. Boys would be regularly beaten to toughen them up. At least you weren't sent into battle untill you had at least 1 child.

AchillesFTW wrote:Exactly not like the Persian Immortals weren't highly-trained well-to-do sons of persian families.

Or the Samurai with their quite similar rigourous training and peaceful meditation.

How about the well-armed French Musketeers with state-of-the-art weaponry, armour, and great amounts of training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To name just a few "Elite" fighting forces

I think he refers to the society revolving around these individuals and the extremely harsh training they received from a very young age. Much of the Spartan way of life and quality of the troops has been mythologized, but few cadres of fighting men come down to us from history with as much cachet.

Arguably, the Theban Sacred Band was another group of dedicated warriors in the same school as the Spartans. They even beat a vastly superior Spartan force at the battle of Leuctra. They died to a man rather than surrender to Alexander sometime later. They haven't come down to us in history as well as the Spartans largely in part to the nature of the interpersonal relationships in the unit.

I somewhat disagree with the statement, however, but I wouldn't class them with the Immortals, Apple-bearers or the French Musketeers. (One could even include English Longbowmen in that group as well.) I can see the possibility of the Samurai, but even though they were highly trained and motivated they fought more as individuals than a cohesive fighting force imho. The Spartans fought as a highly cohesive unit, almost literally a war machine on the battlefield.

The Space Marines are supposed to reflect this imagery. In one of the HH books this particular fact if discussed. One such Marine observing the combat of the Custodes during a battle sees them as fighting alone and recognizes it as a flaw. The Marine sees their real strength as fighting as a unit. Trained from a very young age to operate as a team where self sacrifice for the greater good (sorry...lol) is paramount.

Yes, FWs should have BS4. Nothing new.

No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid. Shas'Ui (I think) and above should have BS4, improving BS with markerlights across the army.

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I didn't quite mean what I said. The Firewarrior is the basic line trooper of the Tau. They aren't the elite of the Tau military, and they're largely not experienced soldiers, so why should they have BS4 when they have no advantages over a Guardsmen bar a fancy rifle and a helmet that perhaps has some sort of imaging lens? Notice however, that all of those armies are made up of elite units with better psychical and technological advantages than a guardsmen. Balistic Skill is just that, something's skill with a ranged weapon. There's nothing to suggest why a Firewarrior should have more skill than a more experienced guardsmen. They aren't anywhere close to the skill of a Space Marine, so they shouldn't have the same stats as one. Works for external balance, as reasoned in the previous sentence, and it works for internal balance as below.
Firewarrior - BS3
Shas'Ui - BS4
Shas'O and above - BS5
Markerlights improve BS by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

No, they shouldn't, for reasons I've alluded to better above.

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

BS4 Strength 5 on basic troops is stupid though. Fire Warriors advantage is their tech, they are not super soldiers on par with Space Marines.

iproxtaco wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I didn't quite mean what I said. The Firewarrior is the basic line trooper of the Tau. They aren't the elite of the Tau military, and they're largely not experienced soldiers, so why should they have BS4 when they have no advantages over a Guardsmen bar a fancy rifle and a helmet that perhaps has some sort of imaging lens? Notice however, that all of those armies are made up of elite units with better psychical and technological advantages than a guardsmen. Balistic Skill is just that, something's skill with a ranged weapon. There's nothing to suggest why a Firewarrior should have more skill than a more experienced guardsmen. They aren't anywhere close to the skill of a Space Marine, so they shouldn't have the same stats as one. Works for external balance, as reasoned in the previous sentence, and it works for internal balance as below.
Firewarrior - BS3
Shas'Ui - BS4
Shas'O and above - BS5
Markerlights improve BS by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

No, they shouldn't, for reasons I've alluded to better above.

So you really think your average Guardsmen is just as proficient in marksmanship as a Tau Fire Warrior? I'm not saying these guys are Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, or even Stromtroopers, but I do think given the fluff they should be more well trained then your average Guardsmen which is frequently thrown into battle after only a few months or weeks instruction. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians. And it's not just a fluffy matter, since the Tau have no CC they need to be better in other areas for them to be playable.

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Really? That's your argument?

PAGK are 20 points per model(40 for a Terminator) rather than the 10 points per Fire Warrior(who has the same save as Guard with carapace).
Tactical Space Marines(from C: SM) are 16/model rather than 10. The closest unit to what you want(Scouts) is 13 points rather than 10.
Tactical Marines in C: Dark Angels are 15/model, and Grey Hunters in the SW book are as well.
Sisters of Battle are 11 pts/model in C: WH(I don't have the new codex to figure out from).
Dark Eldar are a point less than Tau Fire Warriors, with a point less armor save and are commonly used in a 'glass cannon' army list.

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I didn't quite mean what I said. The Firewarrior is the basic line trooper of the Tau. They aren't the elite of the Tau military, and they're largely not experienced soldiers, so why should they have BS4 when they have no advantages over a Guardsmen bar a fancy rifle and a helmet that perhaps has some sort of imaging lens? Notice however, that all of those armies are made up of elite units with better psychical and technological advantages than a guardsmen. Balistic Skill is just that, something's skill with a ranged weapon. There's nothing to suggest why a Firewarrior should have more skill than a more experienced guardsmen. They aren't anywhere close to the skill of a Space Marine, so they shouldn't have the same stats as one. Works for external balance, as reasoned in the previous sentence, and it works for internal balance as below.
Firewarrior - BS3
Shas'Ui - BS4
Shas'O and above - BS5
Markerlights improve BS by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

No, they shouldn't, for reasons I've alluded to better above.

So you really think your average Guardsmen is just as proficient in marksmanship as a Tau Fire Warrior? I'm not saying these guys are Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, or even Stromtroopers, but I do think given the fluff they should be more well trained then your average Guardsmen which is frequently thrown into battle after only a few months or weeks instruction. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians. And it's not just a fluffy matter, since the Tau have no CC they need to be better in other areas for them to be playable.

Yes, I do. A Guardsmen, as has already been mentioned racks up more years in battle experience than a Tau Firewarrior will likely ever even live, let alone fight in.
There are plenty of other ways to improve them. Avoiding CC rather than being more proficient at it, using wargear and other upgrades to allow individual squads to up their BS to 4. There's not really much more to be said.

Average BS:

Tau: 3.08
Ork: 2.04
IG: 3.3
SM: 4
Eldar: 4.2

Just some quick and dirty number I got from the back of the little black rule book. I too the BS of every unit and averaged it all out.

Sounds about right, although the Tau BS should be a bit higher. Make the BS increase with rank, starting at base 3 for the lowest, going up to 5-6 for the highest.

iproxtaco wrote:Sounds about right, although the Tau BS should be a bit higher. Make the BS increase with rank, starting at base 3 for the lowest, going up to 5-6 for the highest.

What stick out at me was that the tau are chronically low bs The only ones with more then 3 are the spotter (from the sniper team he has a pistol) elite battlesuits (not broadsides) and the hammer head. Also only the battle sutis and actually higher BS. The others where all target lock bonuses. They also have two BS 2 drones.

The IG has a lot of BS 4 troops. veterans, storm troopers different Sargent and only one BS 2 troop the conscript.

SMs. They are all BS 4. Except one that was 5 and one that was 3. I didn't add any of the off shoot SMs, but I notice a lot of blood angels at 5.

Eldar where mostly4 and 5 with one stand out at 7.

Orks all twos except some grechen at 3. Bo little guys.

It's a game balance factor. The base Tau weapon being S5 makes them effectively BS4 when shooting at anything except vehicles.

And table rules are totally different then official fluff ( 1 Marine on table is not that much worth, 1 marine in fluff is = 300 Guardsman ).

shasolenzabi wrote:They have been avoiding making teenaged SM players cry by limiting the aliens

Eldar even though they paid 50pts for the 3 shot star cannons that could easily kill marines, got the price and shots reduced because Teeny Mariney's cried.

Tau Plasma rifles already started at 16pts and 1 S lower than Human Plasma, but also did not overheat,,,but Tau plasma could do nothing against AV13. Still, GW listened to the cries of Teeny Marineys and bumped the Tau Plasma to a full 20pts making it worth the price of 2 Marine plasma rifles with no change to the Tau weapon at all.

Improve the Tau stat lines and they will scream again at GW to make them more expensive or gimp something else so the less experienced teeny marineys can have an easy time getting that victory.

Codex creep has made SW/GK/BA all too simple a choice as they out fight Vanilla marines as it is unless the scenario and the vanilla player is a good tactician and his dice roll nice.

But there are too many things that make it almost impossible to stop like a charge of Thunder wolves for example. For the 10pts a FW is I say that they are over costed, they dropped a IG down to basically 5pts a man, and they can easily drop Tau FW's down a few points as the kit is so easily negated at times as to be laughable.

1) They have carapace, A) so do others and those armies also have a lot of AP4, negating that carapace.

2) The Pulse rifle has the best range. A) with so many speedy units out there, it is easy to make that null and void, or tool up stuff to 2+ or 3+ making it hard to take down.

3) Tau are so shooty, A) True, but with IG stat, they hit 50% most times, and then in CC they get eaten up pretty fast, unless one has good luck with the die rolls or the enemy whiffs with power weapons.

Firewarriors have 2 choice for starting the game, footslogging, or a devilfish. Stormies have Grav chutes, valkyries, and chimeras as well as infiltration and outflanking. PLUS they have that BS4 even if fresh out of the schola progenium.

and they come with Krak and frag as part of their kit along with a shorter ranged gun but it is AP3 afterall.
I would say 7pts would be more apt for FW teams.

Let's not forget Tau is a third edition codex amongst a sea of fifth. Things WILL be overcosted compared to other armies. If you blast back to the past and cry about Tau being UP during the Fish of Fury era you would be welcomed with screams of heresy.

You can say it's all about Power Armor, a well played Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Guard army still can EASILY steamroll marines. Xenos are powerful too, they just aren't updated as often. I've seen Dark Eldar eat up all flavors of marines at my FLGS

Brother Coa wrote:

And if Spartans are "the most elite fighting force in human history" what is then French Foreign Legion, British SAS, US SEAL's.... the uber-elite fighting force in human history?

Seals train for a few years, and learn survival, tactics and combat. Spartans are trained from age six and denied citizenship unless they meet the standards. The small, weak babies are killed shortly after birth. They spend their youths learn to kill, rather than socializing and watching T.V. like seals.

Even the SAS, head and shoulders...and chest and waist above the other modern fighting forces never have to endure anything even vaguely similar to what spartans go through for the right to be citizens.

They even had the females performing rigourous athletics so as to pass on superior traits to their children.

Spartans, in their teenage years, are set loose to terrorize entire populations of helots, and expected to steal and kill to survive.

I haven't, and don't intend to watch the movie, and you can search any of this up if you'd like.

And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

And to whoever said the Tanith are superior to astartes, please check your fanboidom at the door.

They're very much comparable. A guardsmen makes up for his training in experience, like I said, gaining more years in battle than a Tau will spend alive. Firewarrior's advantages are in technology and not in training.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

Eldar where mostly4 and 5 with one stand out at 7

Only 2 eldar models have bs 5- the exarchs and the farseer-The latter a HQ and the former an eldar who has centuries of experience in warfare.Only the phoenix lords have bs 7 and they all come in at around 200 pts and have been around for thousands of years. And our bs 4 unit have all trained for more years than most battlesuit commanders. Also most of our unit are infact bs 3.

Gaurdsmen are real men, your paying for a man on the field and not a blue skin thingy.

iproxtaco wrote:They're very much comparable. A guardsmen makes up for his training in experience, like I said, gaining more years in battle than a Tau will spend alive. Firewarrior's advantages are in technology and not in training.

He does not spend more years in battle than Tau do alive. How many line infantry Guardsmen have you seen who are grandfathers? Because you seem to think an average guardsman will keep fighting till he's sixty, even though about 50% of Guardsmen die in their first battle. And unlike humans who would be beginning to have stiff joints and arthritis (all diseases commonly associated with middle age actually), experienced FW basically get Something on par with terminator armour. Tau are hardly laid back, sitting on their haunches, ignorant of war. They have considerable populations of greenskins in their cluster, as well as having encountered one of the most dangerous tyranid fleets ever encounterd-it was small because it spent it's biomass making better Gaunts who could adapt to weapons with a few hours of combat. Hyperlethal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

Any Guardsman who fights like a Hive ganger rather than using the combat skills taught to them is almost definitely being put up against a wall by a commissar.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They're very much comparable. A guardsmen makes up for his training in experience, like I said, gaining more years in battle than a Tau will spend alive. Firewarrior's advantages are in technology and not in training.

He does not spend more years in battle than Tau do alive. How many line infantry Guardsmen have you seen who are grandfathers? Because you seem to think an average guardsman will keep fighting till he's sixty, even though about 50% of Guardsmen die in their first battle. And unlike humans who would be beginning to have stiff joints and arthritis (all diseases commonly associated with middle age actually), experienced FW basically get Something on par with terminator armour. Tau are hardly laid back, sitting on their haunches, ignorant of war. They have considerable populations of greenskins in their cluster, as well as having encountered one of the most dangerous tyranid fleets ever encountered-it was small because it spent it's biomass making better Gaunts who could adapt to weapons with a few hours of combat. Hyperlethal.

You're aware that your 'average' humans will be living to 80 or 90, yes?
And that the Imperium has such a thing as "juvenat treatments" which extend the lifespans and fighting capabilities of those 'average' humans to around 200 years, yeah?

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

Any Guardsman who fights like a Hive ganger rather than using the combat skills taught to them is almost definitely being put up against a wall by a commissar.

You mean the combat skills that are taught to them which commonly are those exact same skills that the Hive Gangers already possessed?

The smart commissars don't put people up against the wall for being effective in combat, especially in a warzone.
The only times you'd see that crap done is when the Commissar is trying to set an 'example' and the regiment is withdrawn from the theater.

@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never. And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Off topic but, I would just like to say that I hope one day, in the far future, the US and/or the countries of Western Europe get a kick-ass movie and graphic novel series like Sparta has to make us appear to be the greatest things since sliced bread to whatever it is that countries are calling themselves in the year 2211.

The... degree of creative revisionism that has gone into making the Spartans into a commodity good safe for public consumption is absolutely fascinating.


On topic: Since the stats of the table-top game are trapped in a scale of 1-10, each successive rank is exponentially better than the one before it. While Tau may be better shots than the average Guardsman, it's not ten times better, which is what a BS4 stat shows in comparison to a BS3 stat. Thus, even if the Tau is twice as good as the Guardsman, it still gets BS3.

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

SM who reach 300 are captains because they're 300.

And Tau are ready for service at around 8-10, and don't leave the service till they're dead or nearly so, since the older Tau are wearing battlesuits and physical fitness has no effect on that.

SO that's about thirty years of service, compared to the one battle of service most guardsmen put in. Plus it's 21h a day.

And they'd be full battle brothers by 30. Their time in the scouts is effectively them waiting for the implants to reshape their bodies.

Rocky1 wrote:

Eldar where mostly4 and 5 with one stand out at 7

Only 2 eldar models have bs 5- the exarchs and the farseer-The latter a HQ and the former an eldar who has centuries of experience in warfare.Only the phoenix lords have bs 7 and they all come in at around 200 pts and have been around for thousands of years. And our bs 4 unit have all trained for more years than most battlesuit commanders. Also most of our unit are infact bs 3.

I wasn't weighing anything by points or anything. Just looking at what the average BS was. Only 5 are listed with 3 BS. Everything else if 4 and up. There are three at 5 One at 6 and one at 7.

Not saying it's unbalanced or that eldar don't deserve high BS. They are just up to be compared to. As what seems to be the highest BS army, they are a good compare point.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

SM who reach 300 are captains because they're 300.

And because they've been waging war for centuries, earned countless battle honors, demonstrated tactical prowess, etc etc etc.

And Tau are ready for service at around 8-10, and don't leave the service till they're dead or nearly so, since the older Tau are wearing battlesuits and physical fitness has no effect on that.

Cite a source. Nowhere have we seen that they're "ready for service at around 8-10", with most conservative estimates being 15.
By contrast, we have actually seen that Cadians are actually serving on the frontlines in the Whiteshields by age 13 and becoming full Guardsmen by 18.

And by the by, while physical fitness 'has no effect on that'--Tau who pilot Crisis Suits are said to be 'twitchy' when outside of their suits. They suffer a mental decline, and they have to be pulled by around 35. Those are the Fire Caste who tend to serve on advisory councils to Ethereals.

SO that's about thirty years of service, compared to the one battle of service most guardsmen put in.

What? Most Guardsmen have far, far, far more than "one battle of service" under their belt.

Plus it's 21h a day.

What does 21 hours a day have to do with anything? Are you trying to cite the book "Fifteen Hours" as an example here?

Because that "Fifteen Hours" lifespan was for 'reinforcements' being dropped onto an Ork held planet that the Imperium still believed under their control.

And they'd be full battle brothers by 30. Their time in the scouts is effectively them waiting for the implants to reshape their bodies.

Actually, no. It's not.

Their "time in the Scouts", depending on the Chapter, is them waiting for them to be deemed 'worthy' of entering the ranks of the Battle-Brothers. In some cases, you'll have Veteran Sergeants who've been through the entire thing, ascended to being a full Battle-Brother and choose to go back to being a Scout. Naaman of the Dark Angels and Telion of the Ultramarines are two notable examples of this.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And to whoever said the Tanith are superior to astartes, please check your fanboidom at the door.

Didn't Gaunt beat the crap of Khorne Beserker?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never. And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

300.

Justus wrote:
Let's not forget Tau is a third edition codex amongst a sea of fifth. Things WILL be overcosted compared to other armies. If you blast back to the past and cry about Tau being UP during the Fish of Fury era you would be welcomed with screams of heresy.

You can say it's all about Power Armor, a well played Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Guard army still can EASILY steamroll marines. Xenos are powerful too, they just aren't updated as often. I've seen Dark Eldar eat up all flavors of marines at my FLGS

Tau Empire is a 4th/5th ed codex as it had rules that made it to the 5th ed as they were experimenting with it. Codex: Tau was 3rd ed. The cost of the FW's stayed the same when they made the 4th/5th jump, but the human armies have seen many reductions as did the orks when they finally got their codex updated.

I know, I played FoF Tau during the times of 3rd/4th ed. I ran rampant over my opponents with the new style of fluid armor combat. The Eldar could do it even better with their speedy wave-serpents and falcons. True, new codex creep gave the DE a massive boost, while many Nid players are upset with the nerf bat of Cruddace making first the IG and then the Nids 'dex so that they could accuse him of fixing it for the IG over nids.

If you look in signature, I happen to play both human and xenos armies. Now that Xenos armies are looking cooler maybe there will be more sales of those armies and we shall see less over-abundance of Marines

Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

He made it up.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

Rogal Dorn: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

You are right, they worth even more...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:
He made it up.

Ha ha ha....very funny

But to be serious, isn't the comon knowledge that 1 Space Marine = 300 Huamns? That's the first thing I heard about them...

I must have missed the fluff piece that said the average imperial guardsmen is a 200 year old version of rambo; ah, the things you learn on the internet

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

Rogal Dorn: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

You are right, they worth even more...

Your math is really, really, really, really off.

"A hundred Space Marines" equaling "a thousand other troops" means a ratio of 1 Space Marine for every 10 of those "other troops".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Retribution wrote:I must have missed the fluff piece that said the average imperial guardsmen is a 200 year old version of rambo; ah, the things you learn on the internet

You need to read better before commenting.

Your "average Imperial Guardsman" is going to be 35 years of age, having served since they were 16 in a 'Conscript' unit and then becoming a full Guardsman after at least two campaigns and a minimum age of 18.

The "200 year olds" are usually going to be the commanders, or in some potential cases Commissars.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

SM who reach 300 are captains because they're 300.

And because they've been waging war for centuries, earned countless battle honors, demonstrated tactical prowess, etc etc etc.

And Tau are ready for service at around 8-10, and don't leave the service till they're dead or nearly so, since the older Tau are wearing battlesuits and physical fitness has no effect on that.

Cite a source. Nowhere have we seen that they're "ready for service at around 8-10", with most conservative estimates being 15.
By contrast, we have actually seen that Cadians are actually serving on the frontlines in the Whiteshields by age 13 and becoming full Guardsmen by 18.

And by the by, while physical fitness 'has no effect on that'--Tau who pilot Crisis Suits are said to be 'twitchy' when outside of their suits. They suffer a mental decline, and they have to be pulled by around 35. Those are the Fire Caste who tend to serve on advisory councils to Ethereals.

SO that's about thirty years of service, compared to the one battle of service most guardsmen put in.

What? Most Guardsmen have far, far, far more than "one battle of service" under their belt.

Plus it's 21h a day.

What does 21 hours a day have to do with anything? Are you trying to cite the book "Fifteen Hours" as an example here?

Because that "Fifteen Hours" lifespan was for 'reinforcements' being dropped onto an Ork held planet that the Imperium still believed under their control.

And they'd be full battle brothers by 30. Their time in the scouts is effectively them waiting for the implants to reshape their bodies.

Actually, no. It's not.

Their "time in the Scouts", depending on the Chapter, is them waiting for them to be deemed 'worthy' of entering the ranks of the Battle-Brothers. In some cases, you'll have Veteran Sergeants who've been through the entire thing, ascended to being a full Battle-Brother and choose to go back to being a Scout. Naaman of the Dark Angels and Telion of the Ultramarines are two notable examples of this.

1. If they've survived 300 years of war, chances are they have battle honours and tactical acumen.

2. I think (don't quote me on this, might be wrong) that it was mentioned in xenology. Also, the twitchiness outside of their suits is only to be expected. The pilots of knights/ princeps of titans undergo the same thing, but they are NEVER "pulled" from their positions, they either choose to serve on the frontlines till they die (the usual option) or they are given the opportunity to retire once they become Shas'O. Linking your mind to a body many times more powerful than yours will always be a shock and will always affect the pilot, but going back to your normal body? Only space marines seem unaffected by this.

3. No. They are almost always pushed into the meatgrinder, and even battles that go well for them almost always have casualties either 5 or 6 figures. Their solutions to superior enemies (all enemies) is to drown it in human blood.

4. 21h as in 40 years of life for a tau has as many waking hours as fifty years for a human, at least.

5. I wasn't talking about veteran sergeants -_-


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The average guardsman would not be thrity five. Look at it this way: 1 million troops from Brimlock were brought into the Ellinor crusade. About 900,000 died in the first campaign. 90,000 in the next, and 9,000 in the next, or so the book describes. The middle aged guardsmen who made up the 1,000 men of hte Brimlock 11th were all that remained of the million(s) of troops who left brimlock. 1 in every 1,000 guardsmen made it to middle age, and they seem to be a fairly typical regiment.

Also, the most commonly used space marine to guardsmen ratio (and the one that makes the most sense) is 100:1

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

A Soldier taken from the day he/she is born being trained to use one weapon day/night without let-up is impressive. Then you factor in the Soldier is a fast learner who sleeps less then a human and obeys orders like a clone... what you have is a well oiled killer. These Soldiers are so dedicated to their efficiency and cause they take a machete and cut a wound across their chests to remind them they get back into the fight on pure willpower.

These Soldiers serve a lifetime, dedicated to the state and nothing, not even a personal life gets in the way of service to the state.

Armed with advanced armor and rifles and trained in a variety of complex hunting doctrines, they live a life of warfare until they die in service to their cause or retire into politics.

There is a group of Imperials who match this type of training and share a cultural mentality of service to the state, they are called Cadians. Essentially, the Tau Fire Warriors are all Cadian level Soldiers in comparison.

So I guess the only thing that is confusing, is why are these guys shooting like a Valhallan piece of cannon fodder?

^that

Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.


a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.


a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

And a veteran guardsmen has BS4.

Fire Warriors are probably a better shot then the standard Guardsman, but not on the level that they get upgraded to BS4. It's a problem with the stat scale.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.


a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

For shooting I'd put them up against Veteran Cadians.

I'd put a stock IG shooter against a Kroot or Vespid.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.


a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

For shooting I'd put them up against Veteran Cadians.

I'd put a stock IG shooter against a Kroot or Vespid.

A kroot is probably a good comparison.

Vespid might be somewhat better shots though, considering they have multi-faceted eyes that would make depth perception and eyeing didstances quite easy for them

im2randomghgh wrote:
Seals train for a few years, and learn survival, tactics and combat. Spartans are trained from age six and denied citizenship unless they meet the standards. The small, weak babies are killed shortly after birth. They spend their youths learn to kill, rather than socializing and watching T.V. like seals.

Even the SAS, head and shoulders...and chest and waist above the other modern fighting forces never have to endure anything even vaguely similar to what spartans go through for the right to be citizens.

They even had the females performing rigourous athletics so as to pass on superior traits to their children.

Spartans, in their teenage years, are set loose to terrorize entire populations of helots, and expected to steal and kill to survive.

I haven't, and don't intend to watch the movie, and you can search any of this up if you'd like.

And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

See, that's the thing. You are correct, the training that Spartans endured is likely just as bad if not worse than what SEALs have to go through, and they did it for much longer.

The Tau DO NOT experience that sort of training. Tau fire warrior training is nowhere near that rigorous. They are NOT Spartans. They are raised 'from birth' for combat. For Tau, as stated, 'combat' from the eyes of a fire warrior is basically firing your Pulse Rifle at things, flying around in a tank, drilling, and learning small unit combat tactics. Simply because they have better guns does not mean that they are any better at shooting them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And to whoever said the Tanith are superior to astartes, please check your fanboidom at the door.

*bites lower lip in an effort to not laugh*

^@ last line, 2-3 tac squads could, in fluff, destroy the regiment.

In fairness to the Tanith, they're better at stealth than seven foot tall armour clad warriors.

The problem with the Tau getting a BS upgrade would be that it would make them as good as Space Marines, warriors that actually do get Spartan training and have auto senses to aid their shooting as well.

im2randomghgh wrote:^@ last line, 2-3 tac squads could, in fluff, destroy the regiment.

Not what I meant. The Tainth Army's super power (back when it had rules) was that it got to ingore the Ranger Disruption Table from the old Altioc Ranger list. Outside of that, meh.

I was more commenting on how you were jumping on people for flaunting their 'fanboyness'... in a thread you started about how the basic troopers of your favorite army aren't nearly as awesome rules-wise as you perceive them to be in the fluff. Pot calling the kettle black, etc.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

A Soldier taken from the day he/she is born being trained to use one weapon day/night without let-up is impressive. Then you factor in the Soldier is a fast learner who sleeps less then a human and obeys orders like a clone... what you have is a well oiled killer. These Soldiers are so dedicated to their efficiency and cause they take a machete and cut a wound across their chests to remind them they get back into the fight on pure willpower.

These Soldiers serve a lifetime, dedicated to the state and nothing, not even a personal life gets in the way of service to the state.

Armed with advanced armor and rifles and trained in a variety of complex hunting doctrines, they live a life of warfare until they die in service to their cause or retire into politics.

There is a group of Imperials who match this type of training and share a cultural mentality of service to the state, they are called Cadians. Essentially, the Tau Fire Warriors are all Cadian level Soldiers in comparison.

So I guess the only thing that is confusing, is why are these guys shooting like a Valhallan piece of cannon fodder?

We've been through this debate before, and I'm sure you're quite well aware of it.

Nothing at all suggests that the Tau "serve a lifetime and that they train to use one weapon day/night without let-up". And I wouldn't call the bonding knife a "machete", by any stretch of the imagination. We have practically no information about the Fire Caste's way of life, but what we do know is that they are trained with "simulated" combat against drones.

And? Live fire training against drones is good. To IG troopers get to practice with live fire against other guard? no? +1 for FW.

And yes, it is canon that Fire Warriors spend their lives training. There is nothing but war/training in a fire warrior's life, it is what they are bred for.

im2randomghgh wrote:And? Live fire training against drones is good. To IG troopers get to practice with live fire against other guard? no? +1 for FW.

Actually, yes--they do.

There's even a description for it. It's a "Cadian exercise".

And yes, it is canon that Fire Warriors spend their lives training. There is nothing but war/training in a fire warrior's life, it is what they are bred for.

Cite.A.Source.

We have exactly nothing stating that Fire Warriors "spend their lives training". We know that at some point, they do begin training and that the Fire Caste are in fact a genetic branch that specifically became the Fire Caste.

On thing people seem to be overlooking is that Tau are aliens. Maybe they get more out of their training than humans do. Maybe they have better xenos granted affinity with ranged weapons than human do. There is alot that can easily (even if its a cop out) dismissed because of the alien factor.

There is no reason why the firewarrior couldn't be BS 4 for other reasons beyond just training. Also your guardsman apparently knows how to use a combat knife. Some HTH training has to have taken place thus taking up time the Firewarrior uses on his gun. Since its obvious that a firewarrior without his gun is worthless.

My biggest reason for allowing the upgrade to BS4 is the SOB Sister. Nothing says sisters are augmented or trained more than a Firewarrior. Sisters used to be BS3, but they sucked so when Witch Hunters codex came out the entire sisters army got upgraded to BS4 for no fluff reason, but simply because the army needed it to perform. Tau Firewarriors need an upgrade to perform to make up for the total lack of ability in all other aspects of the game.

Make the unit playable first, then write whatever the hell you want to justify it. Its not like its the first time GW has done this, and it sure wont be the last.

It seems like people are making a lot of assumptions.

What we know-
Fire Warriors are raised from thousands of years of fighters.
They are raised with only one purpose- Fighting.
They value range and train in marksmanship.
Sure, they don't like CC, but they don't completely disregard it as unnecessary, or kroot wouldn't be seen on the line.
What we don't know- (provide some proof and I'll edit this)
Lifespan
Training techniques (Including experience)
Other stuff I noticed but forgot.

Don't make stuff up to make a point.

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

A Soldier taken from the day he/she is born being trained to use one weapon day/night without let-up is impressive. Then you factor in the Soldier is a fast learner who sleeps less then a human and obeys orders like a clone... what you have is a well oiled killer. These Soldiers are so dedicated to their efficiency and cause they take a machete and cut a wound across their chests to remind them they get back into the fight on pure willpower.

These Soldiers serve a lifetime, dedicated to the state and nothing, not even a personal life gets in the way of service to the state.

Armed with advanced armor and rifles and trained in a variety of complex hunting doctrines, they live a life of warfare until they die in service to their cause or retire into politics.

There is a group of Imperials who match this type of training and share a cultural mentality of service to the state, they are called Cadians. Essentially, the Tau Fire Warriors are all Cadian level Soldiers in comparison.

So I guess the only thing that is confusing, is why are these guys shooting like a Valhallan piece of cannon fodder?

We've been through this debate before, and I'm sure you're quite well aware of it.

Nothing at all suggests that the Tau "serve a lifetime and that they train to use one weapon day/night without let-up". And I wouldn't call the bonding knife a "machete", by any stretch of the imagination. We have practically no information about the Fire Caste's way of life, but what we do know is that they are trained with "simulated" combat against drones.

It is in their codex that they serve a lifetime to the state, will kill themselves on command and take a nice hefty blade to their chests to display their devotion. Their training is nothing but shooting and they train via live fire from an early age as Shas'la infantry.

Extended fluff paints the picture further, these Soldiers aren't an equal to standard IG. They are superior to them, in a number of instances we see how Astartes are required to break their lines. Just as we see time and again how all battles with IG v Tau that Tau outclass them constantly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And? Live fire training against drones is good. To IG troopers get to practice with live fire against other guard? no? +1 for FW.

Actually, yes--they do.

There's even a description for it. It's a "Cadian exercise".

And yes, it is canon that Fire Warriors spend their lives training. There is nothing but war/training in a fire warrior's life, it is what they are bred for.

Cite.A.Source.

We have exactly nothing stating that Fire Warriors "spend their lives training". We know that at some point, they do begin training and that the Fire Caste are in fact a genetic branch that specifically became the Fire Caste.

It's implied Kan.

They spend their lives as Infantry in the 41st and have a mind that is controlled by Ethereals. They live in a dedicated Caste system and have massive training domes on a number of worlds, some of which are renowned for the quality of their soldiers. You're definition of these guys seems to be "Well they fight, but then they take the next 5 years off and relax." Even though they have a constant progressive system of advancement, all steps of which involve combat or ritualistic training until they die or retire.

BS4 man...

^ Super Exalt

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It is in their codex that they serve a lifetime to the state, will kill themselves on command and take a nice hefty blade to their chests to display their devotion. Their training is nothing but shooting and they train via live fire from an early age as Shas'la infantry.

Extended fluff paints the picture further, these Soldiers aren't an equal to standard IG. They are superior to them, in a number of instances we see how Astartes are required to break their lines. Just as we see time and again how all battles with IG v Tau that Tau outclass them constantly.

And that says a lot about how fanatical and devoted to their cause they are. It says nothing about their ability to line sights up and put shots reliably on target at long range in the hell of the battlefield. Guard train during live fire as well, from a fairly early age as well. Death Korps of Krieg, Mordian Iron Warriors, Cadian Shock Troopers, and Catachan Jungle Fighters are all examples of regiments whose recruits train just as much if not more and earlier than the Tau do... all of whom are saddled with BS 3.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It's implied Kan.

They spend their lives as Infantry in the 41st and have a mind that is controlled by Ethereals. They live in a dedicated Caste system and have massive training domes on a number of worlds, some of which are renowned for the quality of their soldiers. You're definition of these guys seems to be "Well they fight, but then they take the next 5 years off and relax." Even though they have a constant progressive system of advancement, all steps of which involve combat or ritualistic training until they die or retire.

BS4 man...

And, so do Guardsmen. Their minds are controlled by the dogmatic Imperial Creed. Many Regiments are renowned for the quality of their soldiers (MANY more than the Tau, simply becuase of the respective size of the empires in question).

I'll grant that the battlesuit vets likely have a decent claim to BS 4. However, the basic Tau trooper? No. Fire Warriors are humans, slightly shorter, blue, one less finger, with a shorter life-span. Nothing about them or their training justifies giving their basic grunts BS 4.

Most of you people are mistaking training for skill. What is true for Ancient Sparta is true for the Roman Legion, which is true for the medieval knight, and is still true for your modern soldier. Training offers you a crash course in conditioning, and teaching you how to use the instruments of war. Skill can be taken out of training. You learn how to use a sword, but you must develop your own style of fighting, lest you face an opponent who knows how you were taught and uses that against you. You learn how to fight on a horse, and they teach you how to balance yourself on the horse with your 80pound armor and ten pound lance, but you're going to have to learn for yourself how strong your upper body is and what your limits are when riding on horseback.
In the military today, they teach you how to use a rifle, and how to shoot with it, but with all the different weapons we have as well as many different styles of warfare, they're not going to tell you how many ways you can die. That's for you the soldier to find out, and hopefully NOT end up that way while your at it. Training is training, but it can't make up for the experience gained in that trade.

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

I heard you never heard of most other armies in the game, that all have standard troops with BS 4.

Fire warriors train solely for ranged combat. From a young age, very young compared to human standards. This means they have something like 10 years of training under their belts normally.

Fire warrior equipment compensates for their eyesight deficiencies and also assists in targeting enemies.

In game terms, tau have absolutely no melee capability, were as guardsmen have the ability to do decent have have armor ignoring attacks in melee. Saying tau should only have bs 3 after all this is just saying I want to win against tau.

I feel the need to point out that the tau do improve there CC as they get experience. A commander has 4 WS and 4A. The idea that the tau only train in range is exaggerated. Heck the cover of the codex has a fire warrior holding a staff weapon. (You can tell he is fire caste by the circle symbol.)

Panzerboy26 wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It is in their codex that they serve a lifetime to the state, will kill themselves on command and take a nice hefty blade to their chests to display their devotion. Their training is nothing but shooting and they train via live fire from an early age as Shas'la infantry.

Extended fluff paints the picture further, these Soldiers aren't an equal to standard IG. They are superior to them, in a number of instances we see how Astartes are required to break their lines. Just as we see time and again how all battles with IG v Tau that Tau outclass them constantly.

And that says a lot about how fanatical and devoted to their cause they are. It says nothing about their ability to line sights up and put shots reliably on target at long range in the hell of the battlefield. Guard train during live fire as well, from a fairly early age as well. Death Korps of Krieg, Mordian Iron Warriors, Cadian Shock Troopers, and Catachan Jungle Fighters are all examples of regiments whose recruits train just as much if not more and earlier than the Tau do... all of whom are saddled with BS 3.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It's implied Kan.

They spend their lives as Infantry in the 41st and have a mind that is controlled by Ethereals. They live in a dedicated Caste system and have massive training domes on a number of worlds, some of which are renowned for the quality of their soldiers. You're definition of these guys seems to be "Well they fight, but then they take the next 5 years off and relax." Even though they have a constant progressive system of advancement, all steps of which involve combat or ritualistic training until they die or retire.

BS4 man...

And, so do Guardsmen. Their minds are controlled by the dogmatic Imperial Creed. Many Regiments are renowned for the quality of their soldiers (MANY more than the Tau, simply becuase of the respective size of the empires in question).

I'll grant that the battlesuit vets likely have a decent claim to BS 4. However, the basic Tau trooper? No. Fire Warriors are humans, slightly shorter, blue, one less finger, with a shorter life-span. Nothing about them or their training justifies giving their basic grunts BS 4.

1. The fact they use longer ranged weapons and train only with said weapons their entire life is proof enough these guys aren't the same as IG. Comparing the physical traits is pointless, a small man can outshoot a big muscled man with ease, why on earth would the size or strength of someone play into shooting. Muscle memory and time on a range are what make a grunt shoot like a champ, not being 10 feet tall and bench pressing 1000 lbs.

2. Their isn't an earlier age to train then the Tau start at, because from the moment they are born, the state owns them. When they can comprehend and obey, they are in the system for life. While Ethereal leadership is present there is no defection, no heretics, no anything except the greater good. Their isn't an equal in the Imperium to that kind of loyalty as the most powerful warmaster defecting proved. The only way it goes awry is when the Ethereal is killed off and no others are present to replace him/her.

And that says a lot about how fanatical and devoted to their cause they are. It says nothing about their ability to line sights up and put shots reliably on target at long range in the hell of the battlefield. Guard train during live fire as well, from a fairly early age as well. Death Korps of Krieg, Mordian Iron Warriors, Cadian Shock Troopers, and Catachan Jungle Fighters are all examples of regiments whose recruits train just as much if not more and earlier than the Tau do... all of whom are saddled with BS 3.

are you trolling? Tau have much shorter childhoods, they be training before most guardsmen-to-be were over 4' tall, midgets and ratlings notwithstanding.

And while the Death Korps and Cadians do induct fairly early, most IG are workers who are tithed out.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

I heard you never heard of most other armies in the game, that all have standard troops with BS 4.

Fire warriors train solely for ranged combat. From a young age, very young compared to human standards. This means they have something like 10 years of training under their belts normally.

Fire warrior equipment compensates for their eyesight deficiencies and also assists in targeting enemies.

In game terms, tau have absolutely no melee capability, were as guardsmen have the ability to do decent have have armor ignoring attacks in melee. Saying tau should only have bs 3 after all this is just saying I want to win against tau.

Agreed, except they have superior eyesight. Their pupils don't dilate, but they see a considerably larger spectrum, meaning they have slight infra-red ultra-violet sight.

A Note on Tau pupil dilation:
The pupil dilates in response to an emotional stimuli/focus on an important object. This focus occurs relatively quickly in humans.

The slow dilation would mean that the Tau would actually have difficulty focusing in on a target that had entered their field of vision with the same speed as a guardsman.

The dilation speed also means that, when exposed to different light saturations, the tau have a more difficult time adjusting (i.e. going from low-saturation light to high-saturation light and vice versa).

Both of these can occur often in combat. Focusing on a fast moving target/target in a new line of vision is terribly important. Even a few centi-seconds delay can result in a significant lack of efficiency. The same with light saturation, as a single burst from a shell near a fire warrior squad would render it unable to adjust from the light for a short period, also hampering combat effectiveness.

So biologically, it would make sense for Tau to have less BS then guardsmen simply due to their slow pupil dilation

Hashbeth wrote:A Note on Tau pupil dilation:
The pupil dilates in response to an emotional stimuli/focus on an important object. This focus occurs relatively quickly in humans.

The slow dilation would mean that the Tau would actually have difficulty focusing in on a target that had entered their field of vision with the same speed as a guardsman.

The dilation speed also means that, when exposed to different light saturations, the tau have a more difficult time adjusting (i.e. going from low-saturation light to high-saturation light and vice versa).

Both of these can occur often in combat. Focusing on a fast moving target/target in a new line of vision is terribly important. Even a few centi-seconds delay can result in a significant lack of efficiency. The same with light saturation, as a single burst from a shell near a fire warrior squad would render it unable to adjust from the light for a short period, also hampering combat effectiveness.

So biologically, it would make sense for Tau to have less BS then guardsmen simply due to their slow pupil dilation

That would mean they take slower shots, not less accurate shots. Given how Pusle Rifles fire that makes a world of sense. Tau don't zing off machine gun rounds unless they use Pulse Carbines, which they do infact use at a much closer range.

Hashbeth wrote:A Note on Tau pupil dilation:
The pupil dilates in response to an emotional stimuli/focus on an important object. This focus occurs relatively quickly in humans.

The slow dilation would mean that the Tau would actually have difficulty focusing in on a target that had entered their field of vision with the same speed as a guardsman.

The dilation speed also means that, when exposed to different light saturations, the tau have a more difficult time adjusting (i.e. going from low-saturation light to high-saturation light and vice versa).

Both of these can occur often in combat. Focusing on a fast moving target/target in a new line of vision is terribly important. Even a few centi-seconds delay can result in a significant lack of efficiency. The same with light saturation, as a single burst from a shell near a fire warrior squad would render it unable to adjust from the light for a short period, also hampering combat effectiveness.

So biologically, it would make sense for Tau to have less BS then guardsmen simply due to their slow pupil dilation

That effect is negated by their helmet.

As someone ignorant of this effect, how is this done? Do they have a direct occular implant? Even if their helmet displays it via spectrum, as far as I know, aside from direct occular implant or an artificial pupil, there is no way to deal with this effect in a similar manner.

Also, on the 21h of training thing. Consistent? the race can survive at 3hours of rest cycle? Normal functioing nero-centers need more than that. Perhaps they are bad shots because they haven't had proper rest. Either that, or you are grossly oversimplifying the 21hours active training/combat in a lifespan.

Hashbeth wrote:As someone ignorant of this effect, how is this done? Do they have a direct occular implant? Even if their helmet displays it via spectrum, as far as I know, aside from direct occular implant or an artificial pupil, there is no way to deal with this effect in a similar manner.

Also, on the 21h of training thing. Consistent? the race can survive at 3hours of rest cycle? Normal functioing nero-centers need more than that. Perhaps they are bad shots because they haven't had proper rest. Either that, or you are grossly oversimplifying the 21hours active training/combat in a lifespan.

It says in the Tau codex that they sleep up to 3 hours a day.

And through a combination of lense polarisation, target tracking and neural interface the effects are negated. Eyes can focus much more easily upon a glowing dot written upon their retina then a distant smudge upon the horizon

Training, while important, doesn't necessarily capture the essence of the Tau to me. What I like about them is how un-40K they are. They are a young, optimistic race with this fantastic explosion of growth and technological development, and they're hopeful and expanding and they don't have much of a dark side (yet). I don't necessarily want my Tau being super trained warriors that can kill 20 men where they stand with a sharp rock. I'm okay with them being physiologically and martially inferior, but to me the fair compensation for that would be a better stat line on Pulse Rifles / Carbines.

While technology props up the IoM (and a number of other races for that matter), I think it does moreso for the Tau. That's why I like them.

Hashbeth wrote:As someone ignorant of this effect, how is this done? Do they have a direct occular implant? Even if their helmet displays it via spectrum, as far as I know, aside from direct occular implant or an artificial pupil, there is no way to deal with this effect in a similar manner.

Also, on the 21h of training thing. Consistent? the race can survive at 3hours of rest cycle? Normal functioing nero-centers need more than that. Perhaps they are bad shots because they haven't had proper rest. Either that, or you are grossly oversimplifying the 21hours active training/combat in a lifespan.

So we should give pillows and teddy bears to the tau.

You need to also consider that an increased spectrum of visability doesn't mean you have better vision.


Birds are able to see infrared light. dispite this, many birds have little to no night vision capabilities.


a broader spectrum of visability might actually mean you are less sensitive to light levels and need a broader visable spectrum to compensate.

Grey Templar wrote:You need to also consider that an increased spectrum of visability doesn't mean you have better vision.


Birds are able to see infrared light. dispite this, many birds have little to no night vision capabilities.


a broader spectrum of visability might actually mean you are less sensitive to light levels and need a broader visable spectrum to compensate.

'

^no.

Tetrachromacy is not a handicap.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You need to also consider that an increased spectrum of visability doesn't mean you have better vision.


Birds are able to see infrared light. dispite this, many birds have little to no night vision capabilities.


a broader spectrum of visability might actually mean you are less sensitive to light levels and need a broader visable spectrum to compensate.

'

^no.

Tetrachromacy is not a handicap.

Is it good though? Like what would you use it for?

But it's not necessarily a benefit. Especially given that hawks I believe, with incredible eyesight, but don't have full spectrum sight (i believe they only see in black and white?). However their main advantage is that they have incredible depth perception, and magnifying sight lenses (effecting pupils).

I think the main issue is overcoming pupil dilation, and the fact that consistent 21 hours of training for 30 some years is highly improbable.

You would be able to see colour and detail that humans wouldn't even register. Imagine-colours that are physically impossible for unaugmented humans to see.

Ok. now turn that acid trip into a + 1 to BS.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is if this increases combat effectiveness. Yes, you may see another color spectrum, but for combat, focus and the timing therein are greater factors in determining combat efficiency.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
1. The fact they use longer ranged weapons and train only with said weapons their entire life is proof enough these guys aren't the same as IG. Comparing the physical traits is pointless, a small man can outshoot a big muscled man with ease, why on earth would the size or strength of someone play into shooting. Muscle memory and time on a range are what make a grunt shoot like a champ, not being 10 feet tall and bench pressing 1000 lbs.

2. Their isn't an earlier age to train then the Tau start at, because from the moment they are born, the state owns them. When they can comprehend and obey, they are in the system for life. While Ethereal leadership is present there is no defection, no heretics, no anything except the greater good. Their isn't an equal in the Imperium to that kind of loyalty as the most powerful warmaster defecting proved. The only way it goes awry is when the Ethereal is killed off and no others are present to replace him/her.

1. I was merely pointing out the distinct lack of differences between Tau and Guardsmen, showing that there is no really discernible physical explanation for why the Tau would innately have better hand-eye coordination, or any other physical explanation to explain why they should have a higher BS than they currently do.

2. That's plenty true for a large number of Imperial Guard Regiments as well. There are plenty of Imperial Worlds where men are born into the service of the military, trained for it effectively from birth. Also, no traitors? No defection? What about Commander Farsight? He (hinted very strongly) effectively killed the Ethereals sent along with his force and basically went rogue, being written off as a traitor by the Empire.

And, with those points addressed, none of what you mentioned really point to the Tau being better trained or innate shots than their Imperial counterparts. Being part of an mind controlling, communist society does not make someone a better shot on the battlefield. Having a weapon with a longer range does not make someone a better shot on the battlefield. Training and experience does these things. As had been stated by several people in this thread, the Tau have a continuously progressing system of advancement for their military. The lowest tier of this progression, the normal fire warrior, has training, but generally not a veteran level of combat experience. I have seen nothing that suggests otherwise.

im2randomghgh wrote:

are you trolling? Tau have much shorter childhoods, they be training before most guardsmen-to-be were over 4' tall, midgets and ratlings notwithstanding.

And while the Death Korps and Cadians do induct fairly early, most IG are workers who are tithed out.

I am not trolling.

And that has what to do with what? Sure, scale things appropriately to account for the aging difference. A Tau fire warrior begins his training perhaps 4-5 years earlier than a human does... mostly because at the age of four or five most humans are still getting a handle on basic motor functions and verbal communication. There are plenty of Imperial Guard Regiments that start training their recruits by the time that they are between 8 and 10 years old, the equivalent age for a Tau to begin his training. The final product, the trained soldier on the battlefield, isn't much different in skill and ability, the calendar date is all that's really different.

Read my earlier post please. You people misunderstand training for its purposes. You think boot camp prepares you for combat. No, it prepares you so you can actually DO combat. Just because you've been taught ten different ways to approach an entrenched position more than your enemy, does not mean you can do it successfully. It simply means you know ten ways your enemy hadn't been taught during his training. What if your enemy has been fighting battles for the last twenty or so and has learned over the years how the eldar like to sneak up on you, and coincidentally, your doing the exact same thing that has been done to him twenty times already?

And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

Does nobody take into account that the guard armies GW intends people to use are the exceptionally good ones? You never see a box of guardsmen from random planet x its cadians, catachans or some other famous regiment that has lots of training and experience therefore it would make sense to have simillar skill to a tau whom has had lots of target practice. Also game balance, strength 5 makes up for low bs by making it easy to wound most models that arent crazy high toughness.

Those are pretty much standard guard units. That IS the Imperial Guard.


You're thinking of PDF if you want to think of really bad human infantry. Don't let moronic internet memes poison your view of the lore

I know but the ones were are intended to use are literally the best of the best. They would outdo any random planets guardsmen anytime.

Altzer wrote:I know but the ones were are intended to use are literally the best of the best. They would outdo any random planets guardsmen anytime.

Once inducted into the Guard, all of them are trained to roughly the same (rather high) standards, albeit with different tactics. You wouldn't ask Tallarn to do the same things you'd ask Cadians to do-- nor the other way around. Each planet's guardsmen have a different specialty. Some are heavy assault troops with extra flak armor, others are recon troops with lighter flak cloaks, and still others are siege troops or urban warfare grunts.

None of them are unskilled fodder unless they're conscripts, which are usually not really proper guard to begin with.

But I still would not expect some world that nobody has ever heard of to outdo tallarns or cadians GW writers would never have it

im2randomghgh wrote: (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

You fail here.

Altzer wrote:But I still would not expect some world that nobody has ever heard of to outdo tallarns or cadians GW writers would never have it

That would be situational.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FuryTheBerserker wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

You fail here.

Agreed

Im all for D10. Far better in my opinion.

juraigamer wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

I heard you never heard of most other armies in the game, that all have standard troops with BS 4.

Fire warriors train solely for ranged combat. From a young age, very young compared to human standards. This means they have something like 10 years of training under their belts normally.

Fire warrior equipment compensates for their eyesight deficiencies and also assists in targeting enemies.

In game terms, tau have absolutely no melee capability, were as guardsmen have the ability to do decent have have armor ignoring attacks in melee. Saying tau should only have bs 3 after all this is just saying I want to win against tau.

I think someone's missed the little conversation that came after that statement. I'm not going to repeat myself. Go back and read what I've posted, it explains what I meant a lot clearer.

Honestly I think this forum overestimates the professionalism/training of the Guard. The fluff GW presents clearly makes it out to be an army that uses weight of numbers and takes incredibly high casualties on a regular basis. Not everyone are Cadians/Catachans and they represent a small minority of Guardsmen.

Though I guess it depends on the Regiment more then anything. Cadians are going to be some of the best you have if not the best whereas worlds with 3/4 the population conscripted (or some BS number like that) will be utter gak.

Hashbeth wrote:But that doesn't matter. What matters is if this increases combat effectiveness. Yes, you may see another color spectrum, but for combat, focus and the timing therein are greater factors in determining combat efficiency.

As previously stated, they do not need this speed. They have powerful, slow firing guns (somewhere in the area of recoil-less rifle, but just slightly less), they line up their shots, and they use volley firing. It the enemy is close enough for speed to be a factor, then they are close enough that missing would be unlikely

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:But that doesn't matter. What matters is if this increases combat effectiveness. Yes, you may see another color spectrum, but for combat, focus and the timing therein are greater factors in determining combat efficiency.

As previously stated, they do not need this speed. They have powerful, slow firing guns (somewhere in the area of recoil-less rifle, but just slightly less), they line up their shots, and they use volley firing. It the enemy is close enough for speed to be a factor, then they are close enough that missing would be unlikely

Stop trying to piece together flimsy excuses. They need to be able to concentrate on individual fast moving targets just as much as the guard, and the Tau are obviously at a disadvantage.

Not even slightly.

And once again, you fail to realize this is MORE than compensated for by the targeting wetware in their helmets. SM would be much worse shots if they didn't have their targetting stuff.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not even slightly.

And once again, you fail to realize this is MORE than compensated for by the targeting wetware in their helmets. SM would be much worse shots if they didn't have their targetting stuff.

Source for this auto-reactive helmet they seemingly have. It'll have to be physically connected to them like Power Armour to be effective. Since its stupidly unlikely that this is the case, the Tau are at a disadvantage during any combat situation that isn't firing at slow moving waves of enemies.

IA III wrote:It is thought that the distinctive domed Tau combat helmet includes many different tactical systems. Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information and access to the command communications network for his unit. It is believed that the helmet also includes some form of digital visual relay uplink so that Tau commanders can see what each of their warriors is experiencing, but this remains uncomfirmed

Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Harriticus wrote:The fluff GW presents clearly makes it out to be an army that uses weight of numbers and takes incredibly high casualties on a regular basis. ....
whereas worlds with 3/4 the population conscripted (or some BS number like that) will be utter gak.

Cruddace made it possible to have billions of guard regiments. Thats where the questionable take on Guard stems from.
The common fluff isn't IG = chenkov.
Flaws of 5th ed fluff....

im2randomghgh wrote:

And once again, you fail to realize this is MORE than compensated for by the targeting wetware in their helmets.

So you admit you fail to realize this is 40k background, not 40k wishlisting?
Nothing in Tau codices explains their helmets hard,wet or whatever ware. May we see your claims backed up or do we have to watch another thread of missing published GW material filled in with " I believe" ?

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Ok well first of all. If all tau are violent, then fire warriors are violent. I was right and you agree with me.

Also reading the darkest age story again. It was an alliance of air and fire tau attacking a peaceful earth city who wanted peace.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Ok well first of all. If all tau are violent, then fire warriors are violent. I was right and you agree with me.

You were right in a kind of/sort of way.

Also reading the darkest age story again. It was an alliance of air and fire tau attacking a peaceful earth city who wanted peace.

Wars require two sides to be fighting.
The Earth Caste had been waging war against the Fire Caste prior to the siege, it's just that the Fire and Air Caste had numbers and tactics on their side.

Whether they are violent or not does not imply marksmanship, anyway. It merely controls whether they are hesitant to kill or not.

The main issue, as always, is that tau are biologically inferior at reacting to fast moving targets and stimuli. Unless they have a built-in enhancement to their occular processing center, coupled with some sort of replacement lens to deal with pupil dilation, they will always have this handicap.

That being said, it may very well be that in a controlled situation, a tau outshoots the average human. If shooting at a stationary target over distance (or a target that is moving in controlled, predictable patterns, with a long time-frame), tau may outdo humans. In fact, they probably do.

But 40k tries to simulate combat. And those that react faster often have a better chance at defeating an enemy who outclasses them in marksmanship ability. Thus the IG has better combat BS.

I recommend looking at the previous post on 'average BS'. As you see, the guardsmen BS is still only .3 better than the tau. Which may hint that tau are better shots in a clinical environment.

Still, it is the atmosphere of war that is most important, and thus they take a minor penalty, putting humans above them

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Ok well first of all. If all tau are violent, then fire warriors are violent. I was right and you agree with me.

Also reading the darkest age story again. It was an alliance of air and fire tau attacking a peaceful earth city who wanted peace.

However Tau are quite docile unless ordered by an Etherial.

Fire Caste certaintly have a vicious side, but this is curbed by Etherial supervision. and even then, the Fire Caste prefers ranged combat.

Hashbeth wrote:Whether they are violent or not does not imply marksmanship, anyway. It merely controls whether they are hesitant to kill or not.

The main issue, as always, is that tau are biologically inferior at reacting to fast moving targets and stimuli. Unless they have a built-in enhancement to their occular processing center, coupled with some sort of replacement lens to deal with pupil dilation, they will always have this handicap.

That being said, it may very well be that in a controlled situation, a tau outshoots the average human. If shooting at a stationary target over distance (or a target that is moving in controlled, predictable patterns, with a long time-frame), tau may outdo humans. In fact, they probably do.

But 40k tries to simulate combat. And those that react faster often have a better chance at defeating an enemy who outclasses them in marksmanship ability. Thus the IG has better combat BS.

I recommend looking at the previous post on 'average BS'. As you see, the guardsmen BS is still only .3 better than the tau. Which may hint that tau are better shots in a clinical environment.

Still, it is the atmosphere of war that is most important, and thus they take a minor penalty, putting humans above them

You missed my follow up. The tau are chronically low BS. In the IG, squad leaders, snipers, veterans all have BS 4. The tau don't see an increase in BS except in there HQ slot (4 or 5). Tau snipers squad leaders and veterans are all 3 BS.

Ah. Mea culpa, then

I agree that Battlesuits need an upgrade. BS3 isn't proper for them.


and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. generic Chapter Master level HQs seem to be getting BS6 standard.

I predict in the new Tau codex we see the following.

Fire Warrior: BS3
Crisis Suit Shas'ui: BS4
Shas'vre and Shas'el: BS5
Shas'o: BS6

Firewarriors will see a drop in points cost to be more in line with everyone else. probably to 8 points each.

I would rather see FW buffed. If only so I don't need to buy more models.

As long as specialists (pathfinders, snipers) and suit-veterans come with BS4 by default, i don't think it's a terrible crime for Firewarriors of the line to be bs3; elite / veteran units having completely mediocre shooting skills is rather insulting at this point. The average troops can have their performance increased dramatically through markerlights, anyway

nomotog wrote:I would rather see FW buffed. If only so I don't need to buy more models.

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if my space marines all became BS5 standard. after all, soldiers that spend their entire life, which is often hundreds of years, fighting nearly every foe imaginable and have heavy genetic modification(including occular improvement), shouldn't miss 1/3 of every shot they fire.

Grey Templar wrote:

nomotog wrote:I would rather see FW buffed. If only so I don't need to buy more models.

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if my space marines all became BS5 standard. after all, soldiers that spend their entire life, which is often hundreds of years, fighting nearly every foe imaginable and have heavy genetic modification(including occular improvement), shouldn't miss 1/3 of every shot they fire.

Don't they fight at close range though? Not always hand to hand, but always close to there opponent.

they don't always fight close. Space Marines can do long range sniping with their bolters too(the rocket in the round keeps a spin on the round to keep it stable in flight)

They fight at all ranges, due to their varied jobs in the chapter. Remember, marines spend ample time training as scouts, tac squads, etc. as they move up the ranks. And marksmanship is a valued skill.

And the occular implants should make them better BS, anyway.

I would rather see like 7 points a fire warrior and 5 points a Kroot than Increased FW BS.

Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.


What I think is more likely is BS4 on Suits, BS5 of shas'el/o, BS6 On new Fire Caste Leader, Shadowsun's Experimental Stealthsuit exploded.

And before anyone boos about Crisis Suits having higher BS than Space Marines, Space Marines aren't inside giant robots.

I wouldn't mind a Shas'el/o with BS5. a Space Marine captain has 5 too.

The whole problem here is the abysmal lack of/quality of fluff regarding Tau. GW started the poor eyesight thing and then completely retconned it because it's not mentioned in the current codex, at all.

So that leaves the question. If they don't have a physical limitation that causes poor shooting, why then are they BS3. As far as fluff goes, there's no real reason. Game mechanics, they have marklights which would make it too easy to make every unit BS5 and have plenty of MLs to do other nasty stuff if they were a baseline BS4.

I read through the thread and there's a big mishmash of fluff and game mechanics going on so I suppose you would really need to separate the two before considering the issue objectively.

I'm primarily a gamer so I let the fluff lovers argue out that end of things. I pretty much agree with what Grey Templar said with the addendum of Pathfinders to the baseline BS4 but I'll throw the caveat in that it all depends on what GW decides to do with markerlights in a new codex. It's a bit silly to make the shooting effectiveness of core troops depend on MLs if you have to roll a 4+ to put one on an enemy unit that's within range. The cost to ML ratio is out of wack and hurts the synergy that a Tau army is dependant upon to be successful on the battlefield.

As was kicked around earlier, the S5 30" range weapon is a non-factor because noone plays gunline Tau which means you're either shooting within 12" trying to finish off an enemy unit or still in your Devilfish hoping you don't get unhorsed. On top of this is the current trend to focus entirely on close combat for turns 2 onwards, I assume as a mechanism to speed-up games; this really hurts an army that is geared entirely for close combat and has extemely poor WS and leadership and no access to power fists/weapons. At least IG blobs have access to these. If a FW wants to hit anything with WS5, they have to roll a 5+ to even hit them so inevitably they just get steamrollered by everything that has a claw, knife or looks scary.

As I said, I don't know a great deal of fluff and to be honest I really don't care to because GW writers have proven themselves to be a) terrible and b) able to make it up and change it as they see fit. They really painted themselves into a corner with the whole static snapshot of a look in time because it means to make anything new, they have to pretend all of the things leading up to that item didn't exist. "Did we say Tau have bad eyesight? What we meant to say is that they see perfectly normal but really just abhore close combat." The next codex will be "Did we say that Tau really think close combat is uncivilized? What we meant is that they love and drink the blood of blood angels for breakfast every morning."

Any of this could be said for every army, "We didn't say anything about this guy before because he was busy in the warp, carving his name into the chests of daemons. hur hur."

Just my thoughts.

They will proably just make Kroot slightly better in CC and with more varity and options. maybe able to purchase an armor save that isn't a 6+(5+ thick hide?) maybe access to powerfists/PF equivilant and power weapons.

that will give them at least some sort of CC unit that is at least semi-survivable and won't go down to a guardsmen's slap.

Grey Templar wrote:They will proably just make Kroot slightly better in CC and with more varity and options. maybe able to purchase an armor save that isn't a 6+(5+ thick hide?) maybe access to powerfists/PF equivilant and power weapons.

that will give them at least some sort of CC unit that is at least semi-survivable and won't go down to a guardsmen's slap.

That'd be the easiest fix; the old Chapter Approved Kroot Mercenary list gave options for things like that and the fluff is already there that they're well traveled and interact with a variety of species.

From some things people were saying a couple of months ago though, the Demiurg are supposed to be making an appearance so who knows what they'll do.

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't mind a Shas'el/o with BS5. a Space Marine captain has 5 too.

Shas'o WS 4 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 3 I 3 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 3+

captan WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A3 Ld 10 Sv 3+

Take a look at that. That is the stats in the little rule book. It's kind of odd how alike they are. It almost looks like the tau could beat them in melee, but they would be slowed by having no melee weapons.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't mind a Shas'el/o with BS5. a Space Marine captain has 5 too.

Shas'o WS 4 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 3 I 3 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 3+

captan WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A3 Ld 10 Sv 3+

Take a look at that. That is the stats in the little rule book. It's kind of odd how alike they are. It almost looks like the tau could beat them in melee, but they would be slowed by having no melee weapons.

That and the Tau having to pay for his 4+ invulnerable.

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

So speculative is ok when it comes to the "hur hur, Tau sterilize populations of worlds" (DoW video game reference) but not ok for equipment loadouts?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would rather see like 7 points a fire warrior and 5 points a Kroot than Increased FW BS.

Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.


What I think is more likely is BS4 on Suits, BS5 of shas'el/o, BS6 On new Fire Caste Leader, Shadowsun's Experimental Stealthsuit exploded.

And before anyone boos about Crisis Suits having higher BS than Space Marines, Space Marines aren't inside giant robots.

Agreed. Shadowsun with BS7 would make her a respectable options, and a fair vehicle killer. Normally she only is good for 1-2 kills.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

Guardsmen have these things too(imperial munitorum manuel)

all Guardsmen have squad level vox equipment and Magnoculars(with night vision capabilities and auto-focusing at any distance) Targeters are also avaliable for requisition as needed and can be fitted to almost any weapon.

space marine power armor has all these things built in.


don't think that the Tau are unique in equiping their troops with such things.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

So speculative is ok when it comes to the "hur hur, Tau sterilize populations of worlds" (DoW video game reference) but not ok for equipment loadouts?

No, it's not. You're confusing me with Brother Coa--and I suggest you stop doing that if you wish to have meaningful discussion with me.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

Need I remind you that almost all Tau fluff is by speculative Imperials? The pherormone thing, the sterilization thing etc.

Even The Farsight thing, which is a HUGE part of Tau fluff, is surrounded by much speculation.

The only reason it is speculative is because the Mechanicus has been forbidden to do Empirical research


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

Guardsmen have these things too(imperial munitorum manuel)

all Guardsmen have squad level vox equipment and Magnoculars(with night vision capabilities and auto-focusing at any distance) Targeters are also avaliable for requisition as needed and can be fitted to almost any weapon.

space marine power armor has all these things built in.


don't think that the Tau are unique in equiping their troops with such things.

Astartes, yes. Magnoculars, yes (though it is not the same thing as targeting equipment) and as for IG having targeters is almost exclusively stormtroopers and artillery companies.

I'm kind of new to the war hammer 40k universe but i would think the way they use marker lights would kind of mean they wouldn't need as much BS skill kind of like an army unit today oh why get good at using a rifle when we can just call in an airstrike... figuratively speaking of course

elektrik wrote:I'm kind of new to the war hammer 40k universe but i would think the way they use marker lights would kind of mean they wouldn't need as much BS skill kind of like an army unit today oh why get good at using a rifle when we can just call in an airstrike... figuratively speaking of course

Punctuation please

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's not. You're confusing me with Brother Coa--and I suggest you stop doing that if you wish to have meaningful discussion with me.

You did say this:

The anthology "Fear the Xenos"(specifically the story 'Unity') makes a mention of it from a Raven Guard Marine who'd served on Nimbosa, so...

I'd say that the Tau sterilizing humans who don't actually willingly join(which is what it always has been. The non-'grateful' members of their new Glorious Society!) has pretty much become canon now.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344670.page#2411058

But in all fairness, further down the thread you did mention there was only one ending of the game that's canon (not the sterilization one).

Sorry if I misquoted your source. Anyway, though I quoted you I wasn't intending to target you in any way just the concept that we shape our own reality (or in this case choose for ourselves what is canon). In your quote above you state that something written from the perspective of an enemy combatant is canon which means that the same should hold true for other sources such as IA:3.

Completely useless bit of info to add, the only natural BS4 in the Tau book is 'o and 'els. HH and 'Spotter' only have BS4 due to Targetting Arrays.

What I would add is that FW should remain BS3, however BS4 has become far to common for my taste in the present game system.

As some else mentioned earlier, I hope that GW might take the opportunity to move to a different scaling in the next edition and move to D10 for Shooting/CC. {But I also bought a lottery ticket last night, so which one do I have more chance of succeeding with?}

Cheers

Andrew

PS, Just think of all the money GW could make selling us handfuls of D10!!!!

the main problem with that is that it would require every codex to be redone before it would become usable. It would also make alot of people very mad that their massive Dice collections can't be used any more.

Oh I agree, it's just wishlisting, I know that.

However, it may not require reprints of everything, just a simple conversion guide;

Old school BS4 become new ed BS7
Old school BS3 = BS5 (got to keep the 50/50)

and so on.

Not to mention the GW has a habit of making their customers very mad, finecast, embargo, IP bullying, no GW keeps their customer happy

Cheers

Andrew

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.

Torias Telion, one of the best shots in any Space Marines chapter and in the whole Imperium, has a BS of 6.

Torias Telion has been fighting on the field for like what? 700 years?

Why should Shadowsun be better?

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's not. You're confusing me with Brother Coa--and I suggest you stop doing that if you wish to have meaningful discussion with me.

You did say this:

The anthology "Fear the Xenos"(specifically the story 'Unity') makes a mention of it from a Raven Guard Marine who'd served on Nimbosa, so...

I'd say that the Tau sterilizing humans who don't actually willingly join(which is what it always has been. The non-'grateful' members of their new Glorious Society!) has pretty much become canon now.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344670.page#2411058

But in all fairness, further down the thread you did mention there was only one ending of the game that's canon (not the sterilization one).

Sorry if I misquoted your source. Anyway, though I quoted you I wasn't intending to target you in any way just the concept that we shape our own reality (or in this case choose for ourselves what is canon). In your quote above you state that something written from the perspective of an enemy combatant is canon which means that the same should hold true for other sources such as IA:3.

Important distinction.

"Sterilizing humans who don't actually willingly join" is not "sterilizing populations of worlds". Minutiae, but it's important to me.

Eumerin also clarified a bit more, in that "Deathwatch"(which is written/worked on by GW studio members and has access to the Design Studio) supplements--the same thing is slowly being written in.
The Tau are becoming more and more jaded.

If one can ignore all the nerdrage, pseudoscience, Spartans, and misquoted/unsourced fluff text, it boils down to a matter of the granularity (or rather lack therof) in Warhammer 40,000's system and its 1 - 10 (or in practice 1 - 6) point scale.

Ultimately, one has to ask whether it would be the better representation (or lesser misrepresentation) of the game's background for a Fire Warrior to have the same BS as an Imperial Guardsman, despite the Tau's supposedly superior training and equipment, than it would be for said Fire Warrior to have the same BS as a Space Marine, a superhuman trained for decades and equipped to a similarly high standard.

Kanluwen wrote:Important distinction.

"Sterilizing humans who don't actually willingly join" is not "sterilizing populations of worlds". Minutiae, but it's important to me.

Fair enough. This all goes back to a basic gripe that I have with GW about inconsistent fluff and how worthless anything they write becomes because they'll just change it later (see more on this below). What is canon and what isn't canon; it's much simpler to either just take it all (with a grain of salt and in consideration of the source of what is written, enemy perspective and so on) or none of it's worth the paper it's written on because they'll just change it later and you're left with an army that you originally like the back story to and now they're just plastic army men you push around the table.

Kanluwen wrote:Eumerin also clarified a bit more, in that "Deathwatch"(which is written/worked on by GW studio members and has access to the Design Studio) supplements--the same thing is slowly being written in.
The Tau are becoming more and more jaded.

What is canon and what isn't canon? It's much simpler to either just take it all (with a grain of salt and in consideration of the source of what is written, enemy perspective and so on) or none of it's worth the paper it's written on because they'll just change it later and you're left with an army that you originally like the back story to and now they're just plastic army men you push around a table. For me, I liked how Tau weren't all grimdark with their own equivalents of skulls on skulls and blood gods and so on. They represented, to me anyway, a sort of beacon of hope in a universe where every other race is trying to do each other in. If GW change that into a codex full of "crisis skull missile attacks" and "skull rifle skull shots" then it would disappoint me and take away some of the enjoyment I derived from painting them and playing the game with them.

I frequently say that I'm more a gamer than a fluff enthusiast but each faction has a feel and a play style based upon what the fluff says about them....and well it won't be the same if the Tau get all grimdarkified.

As to the topic at hand. BS3 firewarriors, BS4 Battle/Crisis Suits (they're elite for cripe's sake) and BS4 pathfinders would make those costly markerlights at least a little more useful in the one turn of shooting they get to use them in before they get blood clawed, doom fisted and furious charged to death on turn 2.

English Assassin wrote:If one can ignore all the nerdrage, pseudoscience, Spartans, and misquoted/unsourced fluff text, it boils down to a matter of the granularity (or rather lack therof) in Warhammer 40,000's system and its 1 - 10 (or in practice 1 - 6) point scale.

Ultimately, one has to ask whether it would be the better representation (or lesser misrepresentation) of the game's background for a Fire Warrior to have the same BS as an Imperial Guardsman, despite the Tau's supposedly superior training and equipment, than it would be for said Fire Warrior to have the same BS as a Space Marine, a superhuman trained for decades and equipped to a similarly high standard.

Pretty much this, frankly I think the stat values are fairly wide categories.

For instance, Ork Boys, despite in the fluff being physically quite a bit greater than Guardsmen, have S3, like Guardsmen do.

BS3 is fine for the Tau, BS4 is the domain of Aspect Warriors, Astartes, Necrons, and Sisters of Battle (Who IIRC get similar training to Storm Troopers), all of whom are superior to a Fire Warrior.

Maybe Tau are better marksmen than guardsmen in the fluff, maybe not, but fact of the matter is to suggest them the equals of the above named is absurd IMO.

Tau are specifically physically and martially inferior to Humans in 40k. Their BS of 3 on Fire Warriors represents the significant training and technology they utilize. An untrained Tau is far worse.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.

Torias Telion, one of the best shots in any Space Marines chapter and in the whole Imperium, has a BS of 6.

Torias Telion has been fighting on the field for like what? 700 years?

Why should Shadowsun be better?

Because her only weapons have 12" range, and because it is the only thing that can possibly make her worth her points. Plus I doubt Telion has been around for 700 years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:Tau are specifically physically and martially inferior to Humans in 40k. Their BS of 3 on Fire Warriors represents the significant training and technology they utilize. An untrained Tau is far worse.

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:

English Assassin wrote:If one can ignore all the nerdrage, pseudoscience, Spartans, and misquoted/unsourced fluff text, it boils down to a matter of the granularity (or rather lack therof) in Warhammer 40,000's system and its 1 - 10 (or in practice 1 - 6) point scale.

Ultimately, one has to ask whether it would be the better representation (or lesser misrepresentation) of the game's background for a Fire Warrior to have the same BS as an Imperial Guardsman, despite the Tau's supposedly superior training and equipment, than it would be for said Fire Warrior to have the same BS as a Space Marine, a superhuman trained for decades and equipped to a similarly high standard.

Pretty much this, frankly I think the stat values are fairly wide categories.

For instance, Ork Boys, despite in the fluff being physically quite a bit greater than Guardsmen, have S3, like Guardsmen do.

BS3 is fine for the Tau, BS4 is the domain of Aspect Warriors, Astartes, Necrons, and Sisters of Battle (Who IIRC get similar training to Storm Troopers JUST LIKE FW), all of whom are superior to a Fire Warrior.

Maybe Tau are better marksmen than guardsmen in the fluff, maybe not, but fact of the matter is to suggest them the equals of the above named is absurd IMO.

Do you have anything that states the contrary? Everything I've read says exactly that, Tau are smaller and weaker.

iproxtaco wrote:Do you have anything that states the contrary? Everything I've read says exactly that, Tau are smaller and weaker.

I am not arguing that they are physically weaker than men (on par with women), I am arguing the point that they are martially inferior.

As to the point about Shadowsun`s marksmanship, she is the single greatest warrior of an entire species (barring perhaps Farsight and R`alai).

She has been armed with super-potent weapons and armour that makes PA look medieval.

I would say her skill would be at LEAST on par with an imperial assassin.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren`t assassins BS7

Except a Vindicaire. They are indesputably the masters of marksmanship.

First, all the debates about Tau not being able to "shoot" like a Space Marine - All and I mean every single argument dreamt up can fly a kite. Tau Fire Warriors are BS4 - Bodyguards for Ethereals for example, sport a BS4 and are normal warriors +2 pts.

So why aren't suited FWs BS4?

Why aren't FW Shas'Ui BS4 in normal squads? Why aren't FWs in a shooty codex/race/fluff not BS4? Pretty much because some really fail mathhammer portrayed markerlights as a viable way of giving amazing accuracy. The problem is that the implementation was really poor and very very terrible in the current edition.

As a race, the Tau don't have an equal in terms of shooting. Every piece of fluff depicts them outshooting their enemies with weapons of terrible might and power. Hell, even the markerlight is just a laser guider that lights a target up. Since I can't find any fluff to say otherwise, for all intents and purposes, a Fire Warrior can shoot at BS10 if there are enough markerlights on a target, which is just him aiming at a target with enough lights on it. The fact that their ability to shoot when they are firing the longest range standard infantry rifles in the game is silly.

Most of the haterade on Tau is senseless.. its just people wanting their really, really, really, really, bad crappy die by the millions and nobody cares garbage IG to seem cool! Sorry guys, but IG aren't Tau by a longshot, they are trash infantry that only serve a purpose that is dying for pro-core Astartes. Chenkov killing 10,000,000 men in a single charge or a boatload of Cadians dying so Yarrick can fly away, or a metric ton dying to friendly fire as Flesh Tearers broke a stalemate. How about on the world of Tyran? As the Tyranids needed to pound a race into the ground for a grand entrance as they killed a world of IG! Maybe Taros? When the Tau needed to own someone and the IG came running! They exist to make other races feel sweet. Their only strength is their overwhelming numbers in infantry, armor, and arty. Other then that they are bads, so please for the love of plastic toy god stop comparing them to Tau!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Because her only weapons have 12" range, and because it is the only thing that can possibly make her worth her points. Plus I doubt Telion has been around for 700 years.

So she can't hit gak at only 12"?
Didn't you just prove the points of Tau not as awesomesauce but having bad eyesight if that is the case?
In 5th, and probably 6th, characters have more than one role. Points may be ok with a new dex someday.



Void__Dragon / English Assassin +1



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

pointless dribble... also called trolling

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Because her only weapons have 12" range, and because it is the only thing that can possibly make her worth her points. Plus I doubt Telion has been around for 700 years.

So she can't hit gak at only 12"?
Didn't you just prove the points of Tau not as awesomesauce but having bad eyesight if that is the case?
In 5th, and probably 6th, characters have more than one role. Points may be ok with a new dex someday.



Void__Dragon / English Assassin +1

12" range guns are the reason I've never taken her. That's just asking to get splatted.
The eyesight thing was retconned by the current codex.

I completely forgot about the ehteral bodyguard being 2 points more than a firewarrior and shooting a BS4.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:First, all the debates about Tau not being able to "shoot" like a Space Marine - All and I mean every single argument dreamt up can fly a kite. Tau Fire Warriors are BS4 - Bodyguards for Ethereals for example, sport a BS4 and are normal warriors +2 pts.

So why aren't suited FWs BS4?

Why aren't FW Shas'Ui BS4 in normal squads? Why aren't FWs in a shooty codex/race/fluff not BS4? Pretty much because some really fail mathhammer portrayed markerlights as a viable way of giving amazing accuracy. The problem is that the implementation was really poor and very very terrible in the current edition.

As a race, the Tau don't have an equal in terms of shooting. Every piece of fluff depicts them outshooting their enemies with weapons of terrible might and power. Hell, even the markerlight is just a laser guider that lights a target up. Since I can't find any fluff to say otherwise, for all intents and purposes, a Fire Warrior can shoot at BS10 if there are enough markerlights on a target, which is just him aiming at a target with enough lights on it. The fact that their ability to shoot when they are firing the longest range standard infantry rifles in the game is silly.

Most of the haterade on Tau is senseless.. its just people wanting their really, really, really, really, bad crappy die by the millions and nobody cares garbage IG to seem cool! Sorry guys, but IG aren't Tau by a longshot, they are trash infantry that only serve a purpose that is dying for pro-core Astartes. Chenkov killing 10,000,000 men in a single charge or a boatload of Cadians dying so Yarrick can fly away, or a metric ton dying to friendly fire as Flesh Tearers broke a stalemate. How about on the world of Tyran? As the Tyranids needed to pound a race into the ground for a grand entrance as they killed a world of IG! Maybe Taros? When the Tau needed to own someone and the IG came running! They exist to make other races feel sweet. Their only strength is their overwhelming numbers in infantry, armor, and arty. Other then that they are bads, so please for the love of plastic toy god stop comparing them to Tau!

This post takes it way too far but I do agree Fire Warriors should be seen as more well-trained and capable soldiers then Guard 1 on 1, except perhaps with guys like Cadians/Catachans (who are a small minority of Guardsmen). People really seem to be drastically overestimating the capability of the Guard from a fluff perspective. The latest codex clearly makes them an army based around expendable manpower and as an army that takes horrendous casualties on a regular basis. It's pretty much pounded into the heads of someone who reads Guard codex's over and over. I dunno why so many are hesitant to admit it. I find the Guard a more interesting and better army fluff-wise then Tau and even I admit it.

You can say that "well the Guard has more experience" and while this is true for elite units like Stormtroopers most Guardsmen won't live a very long life. True, not every commander is a Chenkov. However even superb leaders who care about their men such as Yarrick still oversaw massive casualties. It's unavoidable given the nature of the Guard and the enemies they face. Even in BL books the Guard routinely takes horrendous casualties except for elites like Gaunts Ghosts. Books that very much humanize the Guard like 15 Hours or the Hammer of the Emperor Series still show this to be true. Storm of Iron and the Dark Apostle novels has them being fodderized to the extreme. Books like the Imperial Armour series, which show the Guard in a more professional light then most fluff, still has them taking heavy losses every time.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you have anything that states the contrary? Everything I've read says exactly that, Tau are smaller and weaker.

I am not arguing that they are physically weaker than men (on par with women), I am arguing the point that they are martially inferior.

The background material doesn't support your position.

im2randomghgh wrote:Because her only weapons have 12" range, and because it is the only thing that can possibly make her worth her points. Plus I doubt Telion has been around for 700 years.

Telion could have been on the fields for 50 years and he would still have been fighting for longer than Shadowsun has been alive. Torias Telion is old, even by the standards of a Space Marine, having served under three different chapter masters and having personally instructed four of the Ultramarines chapter's captains. He is renowned as the best marksman in the Ultramarines, perhaps even the Space Marines. He is the only person in the Space Marines codex who is BS6.

Also, Assassins in the GK codex are BS8, which is completely exceptional. Seriously, a friggin' Phoenix Lord is "only" BS7, to suggest any Tau is that good a shot is frankly absurd, IMHO.

im2randomghgh wrote:No.

Tau are not represented as particularly "skilled," their main advantages are technology and their adaptability.

Void__Dragon wrote:[(Who IIRC get similar training to Storm Troopers JUST LIKE FW), all of whom are superior to a Fire Warrior

No. Fire Warriors are not as skilled as Storm Troopers. Stop this.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:As a race, the Tau don't have an equal in terms of shooting. Every piece of fluff depicts them outshooting their enemies with weapons of terrible might and power. Hell, even the markerlight is just a laser guider that lights a target up. Since I can't find any fluff to say otherwise, for all intents and purposes, a Fire Warrior can shoot at BS10 if there are enough markerlights on a target, which is just him aiming at a target with enough lights on it. The fact that their ability to shoot when they are firing the longest range standard infantry rifles in the game is silly.

Most of the haterade on Tau is senseless.. its just people wanting their really, really, really, really, bad crappy die by the millions and nobody cares garbage IG to seem cool! Sorry guys, but IG aren't Tau by a longshot, they are trash infantry that only serve a purpose that is dying for pro-core Astartes. Chenkov killing 10,000,000 men in a single charge or a boatload of Cadians dying so Yarrick can fly away, or a metric ton dying to friendly fire as Flesh Tearers broke a stalemate. How about on the world of Tyran? As the Tyranids needed to pound a race into the ground for a grand entrance as they killed a world of IG! Maybe Taros? When the Tau needed to own someone and the IG came running! They exist to make other races feel sweet. Their only strength is their overwhelming numbers in infantry, armor, and arty. Other then that they are bads, so please for the love of plastic toy god stop comparing them to Tau!

The Necrons could pretty handily outshoot them, but that's partly because, in the fluff, a Gauss Flayer makes a Pulse Rifle look like crap. And the only time they have come across one another, rather than "outshooting their enemies with weapons of terrible might and power," they mostly just died like ostriches, harvested by the Necrons. But regardless, it is not the skill with their weapons that make Tau shooting so great, it's their weaponry.

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Void__Dragon wrote:A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

What kind of face is that??

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Not all, but the vast majority would be lowly cannon fodder, not unlike conscripts; "elite" Guard, such as Cadians, or any named unit, would undoubtedly be the exception, rather than the rule.

Retribution wrote:

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Not all, but the vast majority would be lowly cannon fodder, not unlike conscripts; "elite" Guard, such as Cadians, or any named unit, would undoubtedly be the exception, rather than the rule.

All regiments are named...

Retribution wrote:

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Not all, but the vast majority would be lowly cannon fodder, not unlike conscripts; "elite" Guard, such as Cadians, or any named unit, would undoubtedly be the exception, rather than the rule.

any Guardsmen regiment that has undergone its first campaign will be well deserving of its BS3.

they may begin the campaign at BS2, but soon they gain the experience that mandates BS3.


Conscripts, which are BS2 in the IG codex, represent completely green troops that havn't seen combat yet OR citizens pressed into service, given a lasgun, a flak vest, and pointed at the enemy.

a regular Guardsmen in the IG codex represents a dude who has seen combat. he isn't a veteran by any means, but he has earned his BS3 on the battlefield where it counts.


the Tau Fire Warriors also gain their BS3 on the battlefield and through their training.

purplefood wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Not all, but the vast majority would be lowly cannon fodder, not unlike conscripts; "elite" Guard, such as Cadians, or any named unit, would undoubtedly be the exception, rather than the rule.

All regiments are named...

We have regimental units covering every imperial soldier?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Not all, but the vast majority would be lowly cannon fodder, not unlike conscripts; "elite" Guard, such as Cadians, or any named unit, would undoubtedly be the exception, rather than the rule.

any Guardsmen regiment that has undergone its first campaign will be well deserving of its BS3.

they may begin the campaign at BS2, but soon they gain the experience that mandates BS3.


Conscripts, which are BS2 in the IG codex, represent completely green troops that havn't seen combat yet OR citizens pressed into service, given a lasgun, a flak vest, and pointed at the enemy.

a regular Guardsmen in the IG codex represents a dude who has seen combat. he isn't a veteran by any means, but he has earned his BS3 on the battlefield where it counts.


the Tau Fire Warriors also gain their BS3 on the battlefield and through their training.

My post had nothing to do with table-top, it was simply addressing his point about viewing the guard as conscripts; isn't the official life-expectancy of a guard recruit about 15 hours anyway?

Retribution wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Ah yes, the assumption that all guardsmen are conscripts. How cute. A Fire Warrior is better than your generic guard, but it is only due to superior equipment. That's all.

Not all, but the vast majority would be lowly cannon fodder, not unlike conscripts; "elite" Guard, such as Cadians, or any named unit, would undoubtedly be the exception, rather than the rule.

All regiments are named...

We have regimental units covering every imperial soldier?

Oh right...
Different use of named.

Retribution wrote:isn't the official life-expectancy of a guard recruit about 15 hours anyway?

In one book. In one warzone that Guard shouldn't have even been sent to (it was basically a admistrative error). It was not remotely representative.

The majority of the Imperial Guard are likely to be well-trained. The main problem stems from the foes they face - the ones with Codexes (or Codecii or whatever) typically have a higher level of technology, greater numbers or some other advantage.

At the end of the day, BS3 represents the average professional soldier, whereas anything higher represents focused elite training. The coarse granularity of the 40K characteristic system doesn't allow for finer gradation of skill within BS3. A freshly trained IG regiment might be barely BS3, whereas a veteran IG regiment might be at the upper end of BS3.

I'm not saying "do this for mah Fire Warriorz NAO!" but you could do twinlinked BS3 to show upper BS3.

Call it BS3 +. It won't do anything game play wise, but it's pulse so it's better

BeefCakeSoup wrote:ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

I accept your concession.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:[(Who IIRC get similar training to Storm Troopers JUST LIKE FW), all of whom are superior to a Fire Warrior

No. Fire Warriors are not as skilled as Storm Troopers. Stop this.

~60 weeks to turn a civilian into a SEAL.

vs.

training from birth to become a FW

im2randomghgh wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:[(Who IIRC get similar training to Storm Troopers JUST LIKE FW), all of whom are superior to a Fire Warrior

No. Fire Warriors are not as skilled as Storm Troopers. Stop this.

~60 weeks to turn a civilian into a SEAL.

vs.

training from birth to become a FW

Not everyone can become a SEAL. They reject a lot of people. (not to mention the people who apply to be SEALs are already experienced.) Every fire warrior becomes a fire warrior.

^ They are genetically bred for war. They all fit the criteria by virtue of breeding.

im2randomghgh wrote:~60 weeks to turn a civilian into a SEAL.

vs.

training from birth to become a FW

Are you talking about Storm Troopers?

Because if you are, try to actually know about the factions you argue against.

Because Storm Troopers are also trained and tutored to be Storm Troopers for their entire lives. Storm Troopers also get more "individual" tutoring than Fire Warriors, rather than the general training all Fire Warriors get.

Fire Warriors are probably more skilled than the average guardsmen. But not enough to warrant BS4.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:~60 weeks to turn a civilian into a SEAL.

vs.

training from birth to become a FW

Are you talking about Storm Troopers?

Because if you are, try to actually know about the factions you argue against.

Because Storm Troopers are also trained and tutored to be Storm Troopers for their entire lives. Storm Troopers also get more "individual" tutoring than Fire Warriors, rather than the general training all Fire Warriors get.

Fire Warriors are probably more skilled than the average guardsmen. But not enough to warrant BS4.

SEALs, the second most elite fighting force in the world, receives a FRACTION of the Training FW's do. And while I acknowledge ST being superior to SEALs, there ARE limits to what the human body can achieve.

But the issue is, as some have pointed out, scale.

Are Fire warriors as skilled as Space marines in their ballistic skill? Hell no. They aren't nearly as trained or experienced, and the marines have both technological and biological enhancements. That gives them a BS 4. Fire warriors should never equal the skill of a space marine, on average.

As to "there ARE limits to what the human body can achieve" the same can be said of Tau. And fire warriors, with their slow dilation, have that same problem. Also, how do we know that the fire warrior training is as efficient as imperial training? I assume it is, but what source provides that info?

im2randomghgh wrote:SEALs, the second most elite fighting force in the world, receives a FRACTION of the Training FW's do. And while I acknowledge ST being superior to SEALs, there ARE limits to what the human body can achieve.

Why are you talking about SEALs?

Can you give me the BS score for Navy SEALs please?

P.S. They don't have one. =\

Your argument borders on the insane, don't try to make some asinine real life comparison because you're nerdraging over Fire Warriors not having BS4.

Yes, there are limits to what the human body can achieve. And yet, Tau are physically inferior to humans. So not sure why you're saying that, it arguably hurts your case.

im2randomghgh wrote: And while I acknowledge ST being superior to SEALs, there ARE limits to what the human body can achieve.

Same can be said about any organism, be it Human, Tau, Ork, Eldar, Kroot, and anything else not classified as a Tyranid. Only difference is we have no idea what those limits are for the non-nids (barring Humans, but even then we can only base it off of real world humans, not IoM Hive Dwellers)

hashbeth wrote:Are Fire warriors as skilled as Space marines in their ballistic skill? Hell no. They aren't nearly as trained or experienced, and the marines have both technological and biological enhancements. That gives them a BS 4. Fire warriors should never equal the skill of a space marine, on average.

Ethereal Bodyguards are BS4. Stormtroopers are BS4. Sisters are BS4. You don't have to be a space Elf or Captain America in Space to have bs4.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:SEALs, the second most elite fighting force in the world, receives a FRACTION of the Training FW's do. And while I acknowledge ST being superior to SEALs, there ARE limits to what the human body can achieve.

Why are you talking about SEALs?

Can you give me the BS score for Navy SEALs please?

P.S. They don't have one. =\

Your argument borders on the insane, don't try to make some asinine real life comparison because you're nerdraging over Fire Warriors not having BS4.

Yes, there are limits to what the human body can achieve. And yet, Tau are physically inferior to humans. So not sure why you're saying that, it arguably hurts your case.

Being weaker and physically inferior are different. A male FW is equivalent to a female human in power. Are you saying that there isn't a women on the planet who could kill you in single combat?

im2randomghgh wrote:Being weaker and physically inferior are different. A male FW is equivalent to a female human in power. Are you saying that there isn't a women on the planet who could kill you in single combat?

There isn't a being in existence who poses anything resembling a threat to me in physical combat.

Nice strawman though, I didn't say that. For instance, I would say that Farsight could best most humans even without his Crisis Suit in physical combat. Probably Shadowsun too.

And actually, aren't the physical differences between Tau men and women virtually nonexistant?

And what makes you think they are equivelant to a female human?

That's not the issue though.

The issue is, what does BS3 represent. It represents a competent soldier's ballistic skill (BS 2 equalling an untrained firer, BS 4 better than competent and most likely enhanced). FW are competent soldiers. They aren't space marines. Hence BS 3.

This isn't about women or men. it's about what BS 3 means vs. BS 4.

Hashbeth wrote:That's not the issue though.

The issue is, what does BS3 represent. It represents a competent soldier's ballistic skill (BS 2 equalling an untrained firer, BS 4 better than competent and most likely enhanced). FW are competent soldiers. They aren't space marines. Hence BS 3.

It also represents an untrained Eldar. Remember, Guardians are their equivalent of conscripts.

im2randomghgh wrote:SEALs, the second most elite fighting force in the world, receives a FRACTION of the Training FW's do. And while I acknowledge ST being superior to SEALs, there ARE limits to what the human body can achieve.

the SEALs also kick out people who don't make it to a certain quality of soldier. this basically means that anyone who is a SEAL would have had prior training, be born for combat, has been on the field of battle already or something along those lines, it's not really a comparison to say that any Fire Warrior, who may be born for battle but they are by no means a perfect sub-species built for one purpose, they're just a 2000 year old race of hunters.

Just glad this thread has actually become quite civil.

Tau are Rubbish! Only good part is rail-gun! Go GreyKnights

That's more like it!

im2randomghgh wrote:
~60 weeks to turn a civilian into a SEAL.

vs.

training from birth to become a FW

vs.

training from birth to become a Cadian

and

training for 150 years to became Battle Brother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
SEALs, the second most elite fighting force in the world, receives a FRACTION of the Training FW's do.

So you are saying that your Tau FW that sit on the shelf is in every way superior to US Navy SEAL's?
I think you should take a break...

And on a side note, SEAL's are not 2'nd - they are 3'rd most elite fighting force on Earth.
2'nd is SAS and 1'st is probably some unit nobody in public know's about.

I think it takes about 20 years to become a full battle brother. Think about that: 20 years most of which is real combat time. It's rare for a FW to get that much combat time in their career but the ones that do also have BS 4.

The actual time to become a Battle Brother is entirely dependent on vacant spaces on the chapter roster. according to Lexicanum, most Marines become Battle Brothers between the ages of 16-18 years old.

the actual process starts at the age of 10-14 years. the process is complete between 16 and 18 years.

the time spent as a scout, with all implants except the Black Carapace, is dependent on vacancies. if the Chapter doesn't have any depleted squads(a rarity) then the Scout could remain as such for quite a while.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine


So, most space marines begin their career as full on Astartes around the ages of 16-18 and can live for hundreds of years. and this is after serving in the scout squads(scouts are BS3) for a little while so they have a taste of real combat, often preforming vital missions.

How long dose it take a SM to bump up to BS 5?

probably 150 years or so.

Its always bugged me that Terminators and Veteran squads arn't BS and WS5. they are supposed to be exaulted veterans with hundreds of years of combat experience, yet they have the same stats as a basic marine.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:First, all the debates about Tau not being able to "shoot" like a Space Marine - All and I mean every single argument dreamt up can fly a kite. Tau Fire Warriors are BS4 - Bodyguards for Ethereals for example, sport a BS4 and are normal warriors +2 pts.

So why aren't suited FWs BS4?

For the same reason Space Marine veterans aren't (any longer) WS5/BS5? Or do you really think it appropriate to the fluff that a significant number of Fire Warriors should be equal in skill to centuries-old supermen.

Also, could you please avoid trying to reduce any opinion on game mechanics which doesn't favour the Tau to emanating from inveterate hatred; ad hominem attacks are seldom the mark of a sound argument.

Grey Templar wrote:probably 150 years or so.

Its always bugged me that Terminators and Veteran squads arn't BS and WS5. they are supposed to be exaulted veterans with hundreds of years of combat experience, yet they have the same stats as a basic marine.

I guess no one is happy with their BS.

Just saying that the Tau have no more reason to whine then anyone else. If you want BS4 FWs, Space Marines are getting jacked up to 5.

Kanluwen wrote:A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

And humans are even more violent in 40k.

But the depictions of the Tau in 40k lore (as opposed to Tau's not-so-ancient ancient history) don't actually depict them as very aggressive, physically speaking. They despise close combat, they prefer to run away and shoot, they prefer peaceful resolution to conflicts instead of war, etc.

Meanwhile humans tend to be uneasy at peaceful resolutions, instead preferring to decide things with war and battle. Even human nobles do this, enjoying duels and assassination as perfectly legal techniques (so long as one doesn't get caught).

Violent for a Tau is probably flicking over to full auto and shooting everything in sight.

even the book describes the effect an Etherial's death has on a Tau force as not them rushing into combat, but relentlessly advancing pouring fire into their enemy untill they or the enemy is dead.

While aggressive for a human is get in your face and pluck out your eyes while choking the life from you with their bare hands. I'd say that's a liiiiiittle bit more violent, which was my point

That is coming from a human perspective of course. we know that its harder to hit someone with a projectile then it is with a thick club or a knife. sure, it might not be as safe, unless they also have a gun, but it is alot more effective.

the Tau most certaintly have the opposite view. they think close combat is simply stupid and too much of a personal risk. doesn't mean they are better at shooting then the human who is just as happy to either blow you apart with a lasgun or rip out your spleen through your belly button.

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau most certaintly have the opposite view. they think close combat is simply stupid and too much of a personal risk.

No, they think it's backwards and they look down on it as primitive. But this still means they lack the aggression necessary to really get their hands dirty in close combat.

Which makes the Etherals being equipped with close combat weapons even more odd.

agnosto wrote:Which makes the Etherals being equipped with close combat weapons even more odd.

Sure they don't plan to have an advantage if the FW rebel....












See..you don't want to train CC...now come closer so I can beat you with mah pointy stick.

No they are old guys with walking sticks DDUUUUUUUUUH!

agnosto wrote:Which makes the Etherals being equipped with close combat weapons even more odd.

It really doesn't when you remember that they're described as "symbols of office".

Ethereals aren't military strategists or fighters by and large. They're inspirational figures.

Basically they're like IG priests, but less competent instead relying on pheremonal control.

Melissia wrote:Basically they're like IG priests, but less competent instead relying on pheremonal control.

I've got a few that never see the light of day, I may have to mod one to have a force halberd or an eviscerator (I think that's what the sisters repentia have, right?)

Repentia have an oversized chainsword with a low quality power field generator attached to it (that's basiclaly what an eviscerator is).

This argument pretty much mirrors any other argument in any thread, ever. Many of you are arguing about game balance/imbalance issues without actually looking at how the game is balanced...and it's not. Balanced. Even remotely. GW is, like any other business, a money making institution. Why should they care about potential imbalance in one army if they know that because the models look cool, customers will buy them anyway? The truth hurts. They don't care. But you know what? I don't care that GW doesn't care! And neither should any of you!

If this were in any way a serious discussion about restoring some kind of balance to FW BS, then it wouldn't be in the 40K Background forum. And yet hear many of you sit, arguing about things that don't exist instead of constructively getting together to create your own, non-broken set of house rules.

And to think I read this entire thread...
<OT text redacted; stay on topic, folks, or you'll lose yet another Tau thread --Janthkin>

And there goes the thread...^ ^

Hashbeth wrote:And there goes the thread...^ ^

<thread purge complete; containment lifted. Stay on topic!>

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

And humans are even more violent in 40k.

But the depictions of the Tau in 40k lore (as opposed to Tau's not-so-ancient ancient history) don't actually depict them as very aggressive, physically speaking. They despise close combat, they prefer to run away and shoot, they prefer peaceful resolution to conflicts instead of war, etc.

Meanwhile humans tend to be uneasy at peaceful resolutions, instead preferring to decide things with war and battle. Even human nobles do this, enjoying duels and assassination as perfectly legal techniques (so long as one doesn't get caught).

As a species, they are more violent. As individuals, less so. There are many a guardsman who have thrown down their weapons and cowered before their enemies.

As to Tau when they're enraged, it is true they are methodical, but also, once angry at the death of an Ethereal, they can beat Guardsman in melee. Just sayin'.

So a Tau is essentially the Hulk?

Melissia wrote:Basically they're like IG priests, but less competent instead relying on pheremonal control.

The Pheromone thing is supposition made by Imperials. it is not canon. Forget it.

@ Kanluwen, in the fluff Ethereals are described as being quite deadly in CC. IIRC there was one on Taros who absolutely wrecked house.

Since you brought up cannon, random, where in the current codex does it state that ethereals are "quite deadly" in close combat? I don't think a WS 4 accurately represents that assertion. Further, the imperial supposition about pheromones is in the codex (as fluff), making it "cannon".

Just say'n!

To go back on topic, I can't belive people haven't brought up the weapon itself. Guns have their own tendanceys and the same goes for ammunition. 2\3ds of my Marines recruit platoon scored expert on marksmanship. Generally shooting a gun straight is fairly simple and all that is really required to shoot good is a tiny bit of disiplin. Its a fact that the quality of your weapon and ammunition figure about 35% of how well youplace yoyr groups. Now in fluff&game terms think about the range of average engagements. The farther away the more awire your guns accuracy get. Its not hard to put rounds where you want them but your rifles condition really has a lot to do with how they get there. FWs are raised from birth to shoot, that all sounds cool and all, but all it would really acomplish is learning how your weapon reacts.......learning it really well I might add. But that doesn't. Improve the quality or charictoristics of your rifle. I scored 131 btw, 10 points above expert. Before boot I had never fired a gun in my life.

To go even further back on topic, maybe they are BS 3 because they just are! Absolutely nothing in the codex, or the fluff, implicitly states that they are superior to humans.

They have a great rifle - check
They have a nifty helmet - check
They have an irrefutable BS of 3 - check

RETCON it all you like, it doesn't change that it's an old codex.

And @newabortion? I think the maximum score for the qual table in the Corps is 400 points for combined Tables 1 and 2. Unless you weren't firing an M16...

How accurate is the rifle type, though. The AK47 is, unarguably, the best machine-gun/rifle ever made. And yet it has pretty awful accuracy. Because it doesn't need it.

Where does it say that the rifle has incredible accuracy? And what does it say about the lasgun as a weapon?

We don't have any fluff about the accuracy of a pulse rifle. just a description of its method of doing damage.

Lasguns are repeatable stated as being super accurate weapons, they are lasers after all and aren't effected by factors such as wind, and any effects due to air density will be minor.

Outstanding point! ^^ Hashbeth.

@ GT - actually, atmospheric density and relative humidity will greatly effect laser performance. It's actually not a good long range weapon in an atmosphere at all...not unless there is a tremendous amount of power behind it. And I don't think a lasrifle qualifies as having that kind of power, even in 40K. But you're correct about their accuracy. Especially if target motion is taken out of the picture. They kind of go exactly where the lens points 'em!

I've been out ofactive service for 2 years mind you but to qual with the a2 as expert you did need a 121
The corps prides itself on "Everyman is a rifleman" and you get qualed every year, I surved 4 on and 2 off and the only time I had to hit the range was during bootcamp. So 6 years ago, you needed a 121sorry for the off topic

Ok, my mistake!

Also, do lasguns use lazers? I assumed they were an energy weapon of some sort, as a lazer weapon wouldn't show up as it does in the fluff

You mean as a visible shot? It depends on the frequency of the laser. They can be invisible to the naked eye, or visible.

No not frequency. They're thick lasers. Too thick for such a weapon. They also output too much energy. I always assumed they were like 'blasters' in Star Wars. They shoot an energy projectile.

Anyway, more on topic, maybe the tau's training is undermined by the inaccuracy of their weapons. Not so much, inaccuracy, that's too general. It's more along the lines of 'they are less accurate than lasguns'.

Could be, could be. Maybe the inherent inaccuracy of they weapon system is what lead the Tau to develop the railguns and railrifles...

ForgottenRealm wrote:You mean as a visible shot? It depends on the frequency of the laser. They can be invisible to the naked eye, or visible.

Hm, that's something I have never thought of. For more rcce missions it would be amazeing to turn off your "light" to remain undetected even while fireing at the enemy! Everybody get to be a snipah! You would turn it on in open engagements to act as a tracer does nowdays to fine where your shots are landing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForgottenRealm wrote:Could be, could be. Maybe the inherent inaccuracy of they weapon system is what lead the Tau to develop the railguns and railrifles...

That makes a lot of sense, I think we're getting somewhere in this discussion now and not just argueing about what race we should be bais about.

Where did people hear that pulse rifles where inaccurate?

They made it up of course.

Pretty sure "lasgun" is short for "laser gun."

@void - don't be dismissive! It's simply a possible explanation to satisfy Tau fans for why their basic troops have BS 3!

ForgottenRealm wrote:@void - don't be dismissive! It's simply a possible explanation to satisfy Tau fans for why their basic troops have BS 3!

One cannot satisfy the unreasonable.

nomotog wrote:Where did people hear that pulse rifles where inaccurate?

the fact we arn't told anything to the contrary.


Tau players are claiming that the FWs should be BS4 because they should be better then IG.

Lasguns are stated to be very accurate weapons, but Guardsmen are only BS3.


So Pulse weapons must not be as accurate and precise weapons as Lasguns are. This could explain the Tau BS3. its largely due to having a slightly less accurate weapon.

...as previously stated.

Grey Templar wrote:

nomotog wrote:Where did people hear that pulse rifles where inaccurate?

the fact we arn't told anything to the contrary.


Tau players are claiming that the FWs should be BS4 because they should be better then IG.

Lasguns are stated to be very accurate weapons, but Guardsmen are only BS3.


So Pulse weapons must not be as accurate and precise weapons as Lasguns are. This could explain the Tau BS3. its largely due to having a slightly less accurate weapon.

Lack of evidence toward the positive doesn't necessitate the negative to be true

ForgottenRealm wrote:Since you brought up cannon, random, where in the current codex does it state that ethereals are "quite deadly" in close combat? I don't think a WS 4 accurately represents that assertion. Further, the imperial supposition about pheromones is in the codex (as fluff), making it "cannon".

Just say'n!

Not canon. It is a theory. A "hunch" that was made by enemies of the Tau forbidden from studying their anatomy/technology by the ordo xenos. Not canon.

Codex Tau Empire wrote: (Honour Blade)...it is used to settle disputes between Ethereal caste members in stylised bloodless duels. It is used in elegant sweeping motion, quick enough to become virtually invisible...

And an Ethereal (Aun'Shi) on Kel'tyr was "Slaughtering orks by the dozen, armed with only his honour blade."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

nomotog wrote:Where did people hear that pulse rifles where inaccurate?

the fact we arn't told anything to the contrary.


Tau players are claiming that the FWs should be BS4 because they should be better then IG.

Lasguns are stated to be very accurate weapons, but Guardsmen are only BS3.


So Pulse weapons must not be as accurate and precise weapons as Lasguns are. This could explain the Tau BS3. its largely due to having a slightly less accurate weapon.

Pulse weapons are exceptionally accurate. They are basically the love child of a Barrett .50 cal and a recoilless rifle.

Reply by: ForgottenRealm - click to view full reply 

47398

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 03:40:03

Post by: ForgottenRealm

You Sir, like most I think, have a funny idea of what constitutes canon. As retribution just pointed out: "Lack of evidence toward the positive doesn't necessitate the negative to be true".

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 03:44:04

Post by: nomotog

Grey Templar wrote:

nomotog wrote:Where did people hear that pulse rifles where inaccurate?

the fact we arn't told anything to the contrary.


Tau players are claiming that the FWs should be BS4 because they should be better then IG.

Lasguns are stated to be very accurate weapons, but Guardsmen are only BS3.


So Pulse weapons must not be as accurate and precise weapons as Lasguns are. This could explain the Tau BS3. its largely due to having a slightly less accurate weapon.

I don't really follow your reasoning. Heck I am just going to say it. That logic is full of holes that I want to use it to strain my pasta. Your a fine person, just I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the evidence we have.

3 BS is quite common among the tau. Only the commanders get more. All these tau have 3BS well using different weapons. Even sniper rifles. The BS also is not affect when you switch from one weapon to another on any unit anywhere. The quality of a weapon dose not affect the BS.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 03:51:26

Post by: im2randomghgh

^ The sniper rifle thing reminded me: Why isn't the Rail rifle a sniper? makes no sense.

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 03:58:07

Post by: nomotog

im2randomghgh wrote:^ The sniper rifle thing reminded me: Why isn't the Rail rifle a sniper? makes no sense.

Best guess. So that it can keep it's S6 when attacking vehicles.

Reply by: Lotet - click to view full reply 

29507

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 04:04:08

Post by: Lotet

I say it's because only one Tau I know of actually wields one himself instead of being handled by a drone controller.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 04:09:57

Post by: im2randomghgh

Lotet wrote:I say it's because only one Tau I know of actually wields one himself instead of being handled by a drone controller.

3 per PF squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:^ The sniper rifle thing reminded me: Why isn't the Rail rifle a sniper? makes no sense.

Best guess. So that it can keep it's S6 when attacking vehicles.

Tru. Not complaining, just wondering.

Reply by: Iur_tae_mont - click to view full reply 

33160

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 04:10:28

Post by: Iur_tae_mont

Grey Templar wrote:
Tau players are claiming that the FWs should be BS4 because they should be better then IG.

Not all, just the ones that don't want to spend points elsewhere . I would much rather BS3 and a points drop over bs4 and 10+ points a FW.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 04:25:23

Post by: Grey Templar

I predict no disappointment for you when the new codex is released.

Reply by: Iur_tae_mont - click to view full reply 

33160

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 04:29:50

Post by: Iur_tae_mont

im2randomghgh wrote:^ The sniper rifle thing reminded me: Why isn't the Rail rifle a sniper? makes no sense.

IIRC, the rail rifle was used to snipe tanks because there were too many Guard tanks for just Broadsides/Seekers/Fusion Suits/Fusion Pirahnas

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 05:05:55

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

Why so much discussion on this? GW has said they're eyes and/or brains don't focus that fast. How is that not the answer?

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 06:54:29

Post by: 1hadhq

ForgottenRealm wrote:To go even further back on topic, maybe they are BS 3 because they just are! Absolutely nothing in the codex, or the fluff, implicitly states that they are superior to humans.

They have a great rifle - check
They have a nifty helmet - check
They have an irrefutable BS of 3 - check

RETCON it all you like, it doesn't change that it's an old codex.

Correct. Most of the claims in this thread belong into dakka fiction or 40k proposed rules.

Void__Dragon wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote: It's simply a possible explanation to satisfy Tau fans for why their basic troops have BS 3!

One cannot satisfy the unreasonable.

Sadly true.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Not canon. It is a theory. A "hunch" that was made by enemies of the Tau forbidden from studying their anatomy/technology by the ordo xenos. Not canon.

Background as written in a codex is part of the canon if canon is what codices provide on information.
You think discarding your own codex helps?
Let me tell you, either codices count or you got nothing to debate in 40k background. Cause I doubt this forum is meant to be filled with fanfic. Its also stated commonly in fluff that a duty of the magos biologis is to study lifeforms and until your Tau are not alive ( in 40k, not real life! ) this pretty much makes them a possible "source" for any fluffbit a gamedesigner/author plants into the background.

Grey Templar wrote:
So Pulse weapons must not be as accurate and precise weapons as Lasguns are. This could explain the Tau BS3. its largely due to having a slightly less accurate weapon.

Pulse weapons are usually multishot weapons and thus less accurate than single shot weapons.
Think of eldar weapons. Necron weapons. etc etc.
There is no such thing as the weapon raising the BS. Targetting systems can, but in 40k those are restricted to vehicles and suits.

im2randomghgh wrote:^ The sniper rifle thing reminded me: Why isn't the Rail rifle a sniper? makes no sense.

Its copied in from a computer/video game.
Gw explained it when they did it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why so much discussion on this? GW has said they're eyes and/or brains don't focus that fast. How is that not the answer?

It is.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 06:59:02

Post by: Brother Coa

im2randomghgh wrote:
As to Tau when they're enraged, it is true they are methodical, but also, once angry at the death of an Ethereal, they can beat Guardsman in melee. Just sayin'.

Funny, I always tough that Tau retreat from the planet when their Etherial is killed...

Reply by: SabrX - click to view full reply 

10387

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 07:03:02

Post by: SabrX

Isn't it funny how AI weapon systems shoot worst than humans? Computers can process input data from the environment and react faster with pin point accuracy. Silly GW codex writers. They are behind times.

edit:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
As to Tau when they're enraged, it is true they are methodical, but also, once angry at the death of an Ethereal, they can beat Guardsman in melee. Just sayin'.

Funny, I always tough that Tau retreat from the planet when their Etherial is killed...

I see you haven't read Imperial Armour Vol.3 Taros Campaign. If you had, you would have though differently.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 07:04:26

Post by: Brother Coa

Grey Templar wrote:I predict no disappointment for you when the new codex is released.

+1

Especially if a certain Ultramarine fan is writing it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:
I see you haven't read Imperial Armour Vol.3 Taros Campaign. If you had, you would have though differently.

True...but then you didn't see the end of campaign on Kronus and Kaurava....
You kill the Etherial and Tau run like hell

Reply by: SabrX - click to view full reply 

10387

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 07:07:35

Post by: SabrX

Brother Coa wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I predict no disappointment for you when the new codex is released.

+1

Especially if a certain Ultramarine fan is writing it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:
I see you haven't read Imperial Armour Vol.3 Taros Campaign. If you had, you would have though differently.

True...but then you didn't see the end of campaign on Kronus and Kaurava....
You kill the Etherial and Tau run like hell

The great thing about computer games are the alternative endings. Tau wins and the Imperial citizens are subject to reeducation camps with their population dwindling.

Reply by: -Loki- - click to view full reply 

34242

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 07:11:04

Post by: -Loki-

That relies on the idea of there being one Ethereal attached to the entire campaign group. Which is just silly. Killing all of the Etherals? Probably, but kill one Ethereal is only going to affect the morale of the units in the immediate vicinity.

This worked in the videa games because they tell incredibly simplified stories with one leader per faction.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 07:22:13

Post by: Brother Coa

SabrX wrote:
The great thing about computer games are the alternative endings. Tau wins and the Imperial citizens are subject to reeducation camps with their population dwindling.

Know what even grater: GW and Relic stating that true ending for DC was Space Marine and SS was Imperial Guard one. So Tau get owned in both games

Reply by: Retribution - click to view full reply 

27755

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 13:18:33

Post by: Retribution

As an avid DoW player, they're hardly canonical or accurate overall, and placing them above Imperial Armour is...an interesting choice. Having said that, as far as i remember, the Tau didn't simply up and run when defeated, they stood to the last man defending the ethereal present

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 16:36:56

Post by: im2randomghgh

1hadhq wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote:To go even further back on topic, maybe they are BS 3 because they just are! Absolutely nothing in the codex, or the fluff, implicitly states that they are superior to humans.

They have a great rifle - check
They have a nifty helmet - check
They have an irrefutable BS of 3 - check

RETCON it all you like, it doesn't change that it's an old codex.

Correct. Most of the claims in this thread belong into dakka fiction or 40k proposed rules.

Void__Dragon wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote: It's simply a possible explanation to satisfy Tau fans for why their basic troops have BS 3!

One cannot satisfy the unreasonable.

Sadly true.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Not canon. It is a theory. A "hunch" that was made by enemies of the Tau forbidden from studying their anatomy/technology by the ordo xenos. Not canon.

Background as written in a codex is part of the canon if canon is what codices provide on information.
You think discarding your own codex helps?
Let me tell you, either codices count or you got nothing to debate in 40k background. Cause I doubt this forum is meant to be filled with fanfic. Its also stated commonly in fluff that a duty of the magos biologis is to study lifeforms and until your Tau are not alive ( in 40k, not real life! ) this pretty much makes them a possible "source" for any fluffbit a gamedesigner/author plants into the background.

Grey Templar wrote:
So Pulse weapons must not be as accurate and precise weapons as Lasguns are. This could explain the Tau BS3. its largely due to having a slightly less accurate weapon.

Pulse weapons are usually multishot weapons and thus less accurate than single shot weapons.
Think of eldar weapons. Necron weapons. etc etc.
There is no such thing as the weapon raising the BS. Targetting systems can, but in 40k those are restricted to vehicles and suits.

im2randomghgh wrote:^ The sniper rifle thing reminded me: Why isn't the Rail rifle a sniper? makes no sense.

Its copied in from a computer/video game.
Gw explained it when they did it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why so much discussion on this? GW has said they're eyes and/or brains don't focus that fast. How is that not the answer?

It is.

Pulse weapons are single shot weapons. Fact. Not Multi shot. They have better eyesight, which makes the better snipers. Fact.

It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

@ The part I bolded, are any of us reasonable? We are arguing about a hypothetical universe and, what's worse, we are arguing about th e minutiae. The is no reasonableness in that, but it IS amusing, so calm down. BTW I like the colour bleu.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

SabrX wrote:
The great thing about computer games are the alternative endings. Tau wins and the Imperial citizens are subject to reeducation camps with their population dwindling.

Know what even grater: GW and Relic stating that true ending for DC was Space Marine and SS was Imperial Guard one. So Tau get owned in both games

If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Reply by: Iur_tae_mont - click to view full reply 

33160

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 16:55:48

Post by: Iur_tae_mont

im2randomghgh wrote:

If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Happens in a book too.

Reply by: ForgottenRealm - click to view full reply 

47398

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 17:26:53

Post by: ForgottenRealm

As far as I'm concerned, the only canon game is Chaos Gate for the DS. Great game. Turn based. Fun. Like how X-COM was.

@ random - Tau Empire states: (pg 9) "It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes, as loyalty th the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving...The adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Arbites are very interested in this aspect of Tau culture." As you can see in the codex, this is written outside of a traditional fluff box. It's speculation because it's an open-ended plot element. We're given two choices. One of them will bear out to be...expanded upon in the next codex (educated guess). Further, given the information in the rest of the codex regarding the appearance and behavior of the Ethereals, it's a weak position indeed to assert that it's simple blind loyalty on the part of the other castes. Also, latent psychic control does not a psyker make.

And who's eye sight are you talking about?

You can't simultaneously declare your own version of canon, while trying to justify random claims about what the Tau are not by coming up with nonexistent fluff excuses yourself. Excuses, I might at, that are not canon themselves.

Reply by: SabrX - click to view full reply 

10387

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 17:40:12

Post by: SabrX

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

SabrX wrote:
The great thing about computer games are the alternative endings. Tau wins and the Imperial citizens are subject to reeducation camps with their population dwindling.

Know what even grater: GW and Relic stating that true ending for DC was Space Marine and SS was Imperial Guard one. So Tau get owned in both games

If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Ha ha, good one.

The Pulse Rifles in that game are underpowered.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:03:16

Post by: 1hadhq

im2randomghgh wrote:
Pulse weapons are single shot weapons. Fact. Not Multi shot. They have better eyesight, which makes the better snipers. Fact.

Your definition of fact is disturbing...

Its not my fault they go for "spray and pray".
Pulse / stream
A weapon using a pulse deals multiple shots. Never played any game don't you?
*points at 2d shoot em ups*
See, pulse.

Since I have yet to see the piece of background that backs up the claim of better eyesight, why don't you enlighten us where to find it?
Soo many pages spent missing this......

Plus, the last reported successful sniper in a dex was a catachan, not a Tau. But a Tau was the target...
Seems they make fine targets for snipers.

im2randomghgh wrote:
It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

The whole dex is canon or zero page are.
Decide.

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:08:29

Post by: nomotog

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

The whole dex is canon or zero page are.
Decide.

It's all cannon. So it is cannon that people speculate that it is some kind smell based control. That's about the same as having a rumor that's cannon. It's true that there is a rumor, but that dosen't make the rumor true.

People tend to think rumors are suppose be to true, but that dosen't have to be the case. Some times a rumor is just a rumor.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:27:56

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

Reply by: agnosto - click to view full reply 

21196

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:30:43

Post by: agnosto

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

It was also retconned in the current codex (not a word of it in there at all). They're BS3 for game balance purposes due to the d6 system. I think they should be BS3 base and elites and pathfinders should be BS4.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:35:00

Post by: Kanluwen

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

It was also retconned in the current codex (not a word of it in there at all). They're BS3 for game balance purposes due to the d6 system. I think they should be BS3 base and elites and pathfinders should be BS4.

It wasn't in the old Codex either. It was in the design notes from Andy Chambers.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:35:02

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

It was also retconned in the current codex (not a word of it in there at all). They're BS3 for game balance purposes due to the d6 system. I think they should be BS3 base and elites and pathfinders should be BS4.

Not mentioned, doesn't mean retconned. For something to be retconned it must be explicitly contradicted.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:41:36

Post by: 1hadhq

nomotog wrote:It's true that there is a rumor, but that dosen't make the rumor true.

People tend to think rumors are suppose be to true, but that dosen't have to be the case. Some times a rumor is just a rumor.

Agreed rumors may become true or false.
What I was trying to say is, both ways are to be accepted as canon. GW could decide to move it or not.
This does not invalidate the rumors until this happens and IMO loose ends should be accepted as possible future.

We would have less "heat" in these threads if the trend to discard unwanted futures would be stopped. There is nothing against having a personal take on 40k, but in 40k background the whole publication is part of canon or not to keep the base to argue from identical for everyone.

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:42:38

Post by: nomotog

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

It was also retconned in the current codex (not a word of it in there at all). They're BS3 for game balance purposes due to the d6 system. I think they should be BS3 base and elites and pathfinders should be BS4.

Not mentioned, doesn't mean retconned. For something to be retconned it must be explicitly contradicted.

Where did you find this information in the first place?

Reply by: agnosto - click to view full reply 

21196

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:46:06

Post by: agnosto

I've never seen it. People always pull it out in these kinds of discussions and say it was in the old codex but it's not in the one I own (I don't own any of the older books). And it's not represented in the video game, I don't know if it's in the fire warrior BL book or not but I don't think so.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:46:33

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

nomotog wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

It was also retconned in the current codex (not a word of it in there at all). They're BS3 for game balance purposes due to the d6 system. I think they should be BS3 base and elites and pathfinders should be BS4.

Not mentioned, doesn't mean retconned. For something to be retconned it must be explicitly contradicted.

Where did you find this information in the first place?

According to Kanluwen it was in the design notes. So I guess it was in a WD. I did read it back in the day and not just "heard it on Dakka".

Reply by: shasolenzabi - click to view full reply 

2326

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:49:07

Post by: shasolenzabi

It was actually mentioned in WD 251 November 2001 regarding the eyesight, the skin being dry and beady and water retaining, the scenting the air with the tongue, and the ultra-infra-vision all pointing to a species that was still very much reptilian more than mammalian. The codex kept to the other aspects of the social order and the odd amount of gene manipulation a magos found in Tau DNA.

They did give BS4 to the honor guards though, so if you want an Ethereal, put him a fish with a honor guard of select firewarriors and use them effectively. Maybe in 6th ed, the suits will get BS 4 as well for normal suits, bs5 for the next level and possibly as high as BS 6-7 for commander of the 'O class.(allowing a limited re-roll in case of a miss)

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:52:48

Post by: nomotog

Do design documents count as cannon? I would do a tentative no. You can use them to find incite into the intent behind different bits of cannon, but I don't think they should be used on there own because things can change.

I am thinking of the fallout design documents. They released a lot of them with a lot of bits of fluff, but by the time that the bits of fluff trickled out into actual games things had changed a lot. Some of the big stuff stayed the same, but there was a lot of mixing and rolling of different bits.

Reply by: agnosto - click to view full reply 

21196

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 18:58:00

Post by: agnosto

I'm not big on the fluff (because it's often contradictory and spotty) so I don't know about the physiology thing so much. The codex talks about the ethereal bodyguard being firewarriors that were eligible to be battlesuit pilots but turned it down to protect ethereals. That always made it make even less sense that battlesuits didn't have BS4....unless the suits make them worse shots somehow.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:24:36

Post by: im2randomghgh

nomotog wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

The whole dex is canon or zero page are.
Decide.

It's all cannon. So it is cannon that people speculate that it is some kind smell based control. That's about the same as having a rumor that's cannon. It's true that there is a rumor, but that dosen't make the rumor true.

People tend to think rumors are suppose be to true, but that dosen't have to be the case. Some times a rumor is just a rumor.

Exactly! That was what I was saying for the past 10 pages!

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:31:04

Post by: nomotog

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

The whole dex is canon or zero page are.
Decide.

It's all cannon. So it is cannon that people speculate that it is some kind smell based control. That's about the same as having a rumor that's cannon. It's true that there is a rumor, but that dosen't make the rumor true.

People tend to think rumors are suppose be to true, but that dosen't have to be the case. Some times a rumor is just a rumor.

Exactly! That was what I was saying for the past 10 pages!

Never say ten times what can be said one time.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:33:08

Post by: im2randomghgh

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

The incredible detail in which they see the world (see: pentachromacy)

Makes them expert snipers, but worse in the heat of battle. When they have the amount of time snipers do to line up their shots, they are more likely to hit due to better visual detail, however in the heat of battle, they would be roughly equal to a human in terms of accuracy.

However, due to the slow rate of fire of a pulse rifle (70-80 rounds per minute on full auto) they use almost volley-ish fire ('cept with carbines) which would put them at BS3+/BS4-

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:37:36

Post by: iproxtaco

They have a hard time focusing on distant targets. I'd say that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting things that are a fair distance away.

Reply by: agnosto - click to view full reply 

21196

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:38:51

Post by: agnosto

Then maybe GW would be better off doing away with the whole "masters of ranged combat" thing since they can't see well at range anyway and just give them uber close range weapons.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:43:30

Post by: iproxtaco

Or do away with the eyesight thing, that would make more sense, considering this was only in the designers notes and not in the actual codex.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:48:43

Post by: im2randomghgh

iproxtaco wrote:They have a hard time focusing on distant targets. I'd say that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting things that are a fair distance away.

Not sure where you got that from. The slow pupil dilation is their only occular disadvantage.

Plus, scopes render that moot.

Plus, this is a cool picture:

1

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:49:09

Post by: Kanluwen

agnosto wrote:I'm not big on the fluff (because it's often contradictory and spotty) so I don't know about the physiology thing so much. The codex talks about the ethereal bodyguard being firewarriors that were eligible to be battlesuit pilots but turned it down to protect ethereals. That always made it make even less sense that battlesuits didn't have BS4....unless the suits make them worse shots somehow.

Simple answer is that the suits used aren't as "advanced" as the others.

Reply by: agnosto - click to view full reply 

21196

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:56:32

Post by: agnosto

Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 19:56:34

Post by: iproxtaco

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They have a hard time focusing on distant targets. I'd say that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting things that are a fair distance away.

Not sure where you got that from. The slow pupil dilation is their only occular disadvantage.

Plus, scopes render that moot.

Plus, this is a cool picture:

Very slow or no pupil dilation. Any sort of light is going to play hell with their vision, and they wont be able to focus on distant targets as well as a human with fully functioning pupils.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:05:52

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

I don't think that article was designer notes. I think it was just an article about the Tau. They used to have interesting articles like that back in the day in WD. Y'know, when it was good.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:09:37

Post by: Kanluwen

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:22:07

Post by: 1hadhq

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think that article was designer notes. I think it was just an article about the Tau. They used to have interesting articles like that back in the day in WD. Y'know, when it was good.

White Dwarf october 2001, index xenos.

Thats where it is from.
- the looks and the physiology of Tau
- the "loyality thing"
- rate of fire of their weaons
- etc etc

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:25:00

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

Is that were it says pulse rifles fire 70-80 times a minute? I think that's pretty good, considering their stopping power.

Reply by: yevix - click to view full reply 

25614

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:34:22

Post by: yevix

Do people even use the internet these days? lexicanum, 40k wiki all explain this.

oh and xenology book (which I consider cannon) has ethereal being tested on and I quote

"Occular organs. Lateral arrangement (185* peripheral vision) and 'mammalian' structure analogous with human eye. Primitive photo-receptors suggest limited sensitivity of vision- conclusion: subject relies upon advanced olfactory senses (and technology?) to reconcile poor eyesight.

ps - the book spelled Ocular wrong


the way I remember it is that tau have poor reaction time with their eyesight so how do they deal with eldar who sometimes "look like blurs to humans"

Reply by: Zyllos - click to view full reply 

36612

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:34:29

Post by: Zyllos

Shas'la = BS3
Shas'ui = BS3
Shas'vre = BS4
Shas'o = BS4
Shas'el = BS5

I see nothing wrong with this. I do not want a BS increase, I want a points decrease and more options for weaponry.

Reply by: TrollPie - click to view full reply 

44688

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:51:32

Post by: TrollPie

Zyllos wrote:Shas'la = BS3
Shas'ui = BS3
Shas'vre = BS4
Shas'o = BS4
Shas'el = BS5

I see nothing wrong with this. I do not want a BS increase, I want a points decrease and more options for weaponry.

Considering the bulky targetting systems that take up the entire head section, the avarage battlesuit should be a far better shot than the average Guardsmen and probably on par with if not better than a veteran. In game they're given access to a massive amount of weaponry, but are incapable of hitting anything with it. IMO all Battlesuits should be given a BS increase- make Shas'uis BS4, Shas'vre & 'els BS5 and 'os BS7 (since BS6 is only a tiny upgrade from BS5). FW should be given some kind of boost to accuracy but not an especially big one. For example, they could be given wargear that allows them to re-roll any 1s to hit.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 20:56:15

Post by: Brother Coa

im2randomghgh wrote:
If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Yeah that is a cannon to, to our misfortune. All because it is explained that Khorne himself guide that Tau FW trough battlefield...
Witch means that Tau can to be tricked by Chaos Gods...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:
The Pulse Rifles in that game are underpowered.

Yeah, Lasgun is much more powerful then Pulse Rifle there. Autogun to.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:07:50

Post by: im2randomghgh

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

OR OR OR...it was for balancing issues. And they do have advanced sensor suites-they just come at a premium. Target Lock, Multi Tracker Targeting Array, Blacksun Filter, A.S.S. and Shadowsun's Multi Tracker Advanced Target Lock (1 piece of equipment) etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Yeah that is a cannon to, to our misfortune. All because it is explained that Khorne himself guide that Tau FW trough battlefield...
Witch means that Tau can to be tricked by Chaos Gods...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:
The Pulse Rifles in that game are underpowered.

Yeah, Lasgun is much more powerful then Pulse Rifle there. Autogun to.

1. Not Tricked. Helped, but with no deal made, it isn't a trick. If Khorne wanted he could make a Squirrel kill an Imperator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:

Zyllos wrote:Shas'la = BS3
Shas'ui = BS3
Shas'vre = BS4
Shas'o = BS4
Shas'el = BS5

I see nothing wrong with this. I do not want a BS increase, I want a points decrease and more options for weaponry.

Considering the bulky targetting systems that take up the entire head section, the avarage battlesuit should be a far better shot than the average Guardsmen and probably on par with if not better than a veteran. In game they're given access to a massive amount of weaponry, but are incapable of hitting anything with it. IMO all Battlesuits should be given a BS increase- make Shas'uis BS4, Shas'vre & 'els BS5 and 'os BS7 (since BS6 is only a tiny upgrade from BS5). FW should be given some kind of boost to accuracy but not an especially big one. For example, they could be given wargear that allows them to re-roll any 1s to hit.

^that

+1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the lasguns being stronger than pulse rifles in FW is BS. Pulse Rifles are more powerful shot for shot than a bolter.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:12:50

Post by: Brother Coa

im2randomghgh wrote:Not Tricked. Helped, but with no deal made, it isn't a trick. If Khorne wanted he could make a Squirrel kill an Imperator.

Let's not go that far around... if they could kill him they would do that centuries ago.
But FW proves that Tau can be swayed by Chaos Gods - just like Humans. ( and just wait until Tau develop psykers, oh the irony ).

Reply by: nomotog - click to view full reply 

42494

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:13:58

Post by: nomotog

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:16:29

Post by: im2randomghgh

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not Tricked. Helped, but with no deal made, it isn't a trick. If Khorne wanted he could make a Squirrel kill an Imperator.

Let's not go that far around... if they could kill him they would do that centuries ago.
But FW proves that Tau can be swayed by Chaos Gods - just like Humans. ( and just wait until Tau develop psykers, oh the irony ).

him? What do you mean "would have killed HIM?" an imperator is a titan, titans are not "him"s

And "swayed" and "incorporated into plans" are different. By your logic, everything in existence is tainted by Tzeentch, because everything is accounted for by Tzeentch. By your logic, my dog could turn into a pink horror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

+1 for noticing. Clever.

Reply by: agnosto - click to view full reply 

21196

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:19:44

Post by: agnosto

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

All that JSJ makes it hard on the tech to target things downrange?

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:27:33

Post by: Kanluwen

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Something I noticed about Tau... @ 2011/08/24 21:29:36

Post by: im2randomghgh

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

1 2 ► Pg# Go to page...