im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Well the entire head of an XV is JUST targeting software, after all the pilot is in the chest area.

And I agree on the XV9s. They are probably my favourite unit to use in all of 40k, barring Mantas/Titans/Super heavies

The suit runs off a plug in interface at the level of a titan or more. They blend into the suit quite well. It's not like they are moving levers.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Well the entire head of an XV is JUST targeting software, after all the pilot is in the chest area.

And again:
You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you are not operating the gun yourself. None of the tricks you learned for marksmanship are going to matter, as you'll be reliant on the suit's software to operate the weapons.

That is the difference between an Astartes and a Crisis Suited Fire Warrior. The Astartes, even wearing Scout gear and having none of the usual benefits of his Power Armor, is still that accurate through training and skill. The Power Armor and all its fancy technowizardry just improves his effectiveness.
The Crisis Suited Fire Warrior is essentially wearing a Sentinel with more guns. Since we have no information about exactly what constitutes the "targeting software" of an XV8, it's not unreasonable to assume that a generic Crisis Suit worn by a Shas'ui is using relatively less or the user could be new to operating the system or any number of factors.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Well the entire head of an XV is JUST targeting software, after all the pilot is in the chest area.

And again:
You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you are not operating the gun yourself. None of the tricks you learned for marksmanship are going to matter, as you'll be reliant on the suit's software to operate the weapons.

That is the difference between an Astartes and a Crisis Suited Fire Warrior. The Astartes, even wearing Scout gear and having none of the usual benefits of his Power Armor, is still that accurate through training and skill. The Power Armor and all its fancy technowizardry just improves his effectiveness.
The Crisis Suited Fire Warrior is essentially wearing a Sentinel with more guns. Since we have no information about exactly what constitutes the "targeting software" of an XV8, it's not unreasonable to assume that a generic Crisis Suit worn by a Shas'ui is using relatively less or the user could be new to operating the system or any number of factors.

Same goes for Terminator Armour (big enough that without servos, even an Astartes probably would fail to make it move) and Dreadnought Armour.

Yet they have BS4.

And the Crisis suit pilots WOULD be accurate, because although you are commanding a weapon to move rather than simply moving it, you would still be able to become quite proficient at it, hitting MORE the 50% of the time.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

im2randomghgh wrote:
Same goes for Terminator Armour (big enough that without servos, even an Astartes probably would fail to make it move) and Dreadnought Armour.

Yet they have BS4.

The point. You've missed it. Which is kind of sad, because you were so close.

Terminator Armour is still effectively 'armor'. It's not a suit being worn with the operator having to transmit commands through a neural interface, which has to be translated by the Crisis Suit.

And the Crisis suit pilots WOULD be accurate, because although you are commanding a weapon to move rather than simply moving it, you would still be able to become quite proficient at it, hitting MORE the 50% of the time.

Says who?

It's easier for me to be more accurate when firing a gun with my hands than firing through a remotely operated turret.

Retribution wrote:The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You say that like it's not basically what I implied in my post, outside of you confusing the fact that the suit does not fire independently and requires the systems to operate.

VCR > Tau vehicles basic BS = 3

orks are BS 2 except 2 of them. Who are BS 3....
necrons max BS 4...
nids 4x BS4 anything else lower...

Tau
- shas ' o = BS 5

a nigh complete listing of 40k units with BS 5 and higher.

BS 5


BS 6:



BS 7:



BS8:



BS9:




Characters are found in BS 5. A few may get BS 6.
Elves get BS 6 -7-8-9
Only assasins have as non-elves BS 8

What was this BS 7 claim again based on?

Retribution wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You're ignoring what we said in the same convo you quoted. He said "BS3 cause their skill don't matter" I said "even with just suit systems, they are accurate cuz o' da stuf in da head looking part".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:VCR > Tau vehicles basic BS = 3

orks are BS 2 except 2 of them. Who are BS 3....
necrons max BS 4...
nids 4x BS4 anything else lower...

Tau
- shas ' o = BS 5

a nigh complete listing of 40k units with BS 5 and higher.

BS 5

Spoiler:

CSM:
- abbaddon
- ahriman
- chaos general
- chaos sorceror
- demon prince
- huron blackheart
- Kharn
- lucius
- typhus

CD:
- fateweaver
- greater demon of tzentch

WH
- principalis
- procurata
- assassin

Eldar
- avatar
- eldrad
- exarch
- seer

DE
- haemunculus
- kheradruakh
- klaivex
- rakarth

SM
- captain
- sicarius
- chronus
- lysander
- shrike
- kor'sarro
- calgar
- MOTF
- chapter master
- kantor
- he'stan
- ven dread

SW
- arjac
- grimnar
- lukas
- wolfguard hero
- ragnar
- ulrik
- wolfslord
- ven dread

DA
- interrogatorchaplain
- azrael
- belial
- ezekiel
- sammael
- chapter master
- librarian
- chaplain
- captain

BT
- marshal
- castellan
- reclusiarch
- chaplain
- grimaldus
- helbrecht

BA
- astorath
- captain
- tycho
- dante
- seth
- corbulo
- mephiston
- reclusiarch
- sanguinor

IG
- yarrick
- commissar lord
- marbo

GK
- brother captian
- stern
- ven dread

BS 6:

Spoiler:

Eldar
- yriel
- autarch

DE
- sliscus
- sathonyx
- succubus

SM
- telion

SW
- bjorn

GK
- draigo
- mordrak
- grand master

BS 7:

Spoiler:

Eldar
- phoenixkings

DE
- archon
- drazhar
- malys

BS8:

Spoiler:

DE
- vect

GK
- assasins

BS9:

Spoiler:

DE
- lelith

Characters are found in BS 5. A few may get BS 6.
Elves get BS 6 -7-8-9
Only assasins have as non-elves BS 8

What was this BS 7 claim again based on?

You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

Also, I am sorry that parasites, orks, and undead don't get any BS7.

In fluff Shadowsun would DEFINATELY kill a single assassin. The only one that MIGHT have a chance would be a vindicaire/Callidus who could take her without her even knowing, but Culexus and Eversor would be spotted, and Melta'd. Plus, she could just fly and shoot them from the air. Without melee, they would not be able to down her shield ('Cept Vindicare) and Callidus who could kill her in her sleep.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Same goes for Terminator Armour (big enough that without servos, even an Astartes probably would fail to make it move) and Dreadnought Armour.

Yet they have BS4.

The point. You've missed it. Which is kind of sad, because you were so close.

Terminator Armour is still effectively 'armor'. It's not a suit being worn with the operator having to transmit commands through a neural interface, which has to be translated by the Crisis Suit.

And the Crisis suit pilots WOULD be accurate, because although you are commanding a weapon to move rather than simply moving it, you would still be able to become quite proficient at it, hitting MORE the 50% of the time.

Says who?

It's easier for me to be more accurate when firing a gun with my hands than firing through a remotely operated turret.

Retribution wrote:The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You say that like it's not basically what I implied in my post, outside of you confusing the fact that the suit does not fire independently and requires the systems to operate.

Crisis suits aren't using the equivalent of personal firearms though, that would be like saying a tank would fire more accurately with entirely mechanical controls rather than being electronically / computer assisted

If i misinterpreted your post, my apologies, but i don't believe i said suits can fire independently?

@ random - I fail to see how being a fanboy lends substance to your arguments. Look at it this way. Take ONLY the Tau codex (preferably Tau Empire). Find something in THAT codex that substantiates your assertions (preferably non-fluff, for example: instead of whining that your basic troops should be BS 4, you could rightfully argue that your vets/sergeants/special units have a higher BS...but not 7). Now you have discovered a valid argument. Barring that you are simply grasping at straws, and all of your claims that firewarriors shouldn't have BS 3 don't change the fact that they do.

im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

Janthkin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

I imagine it had more to do with balance than it did with fluff; if i remember correctly back in 4th edition, markerlight spam, and the tau in general, were significantly better?

im2randomghgh wrote:
You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

You seem to forget to read the provided info.

The moment you try to out-BS elves or elves in space is the time when BS is no longer the abbrevation of ballistic skill...just sayin...

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, I am sorry that parasites, orks, and undead don't get any BS7.

In fluff Shadowsun would DEFINATELY kill a single assassin. The only one that MIGHT have a chance would be a vindicaire/Callidus who could take her without her even knowing, but Culexus and Eversor would be spotted, and Melta'd. Plus, she could just fly and shoot them from the air. Without melee, they would not be able to down her shield ('Cept Vindicare) and Callidus who could kill her in her sleep.

lets see...fanfic...goes to dakka fiction...

Retribution wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

I imagine it had more to do with balance than it did with fluff; if i remember correctly back in 4th edition, markerlight spam, and the tau in general, were significantly better?

You mean the Tau codex, as opposed to the Tau Empire codex? Not really; the initial Tau codex didn't last long, and TE added some very nice stuff. (4e was good for Tau Empire: skimmers didn't block LoS, cover wasn't as prevalent, and non-fleet units couldn't Run at you.)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You're ignoring what we said in the same convo you quoted. He said "BS3 cause their skill don't matter" I said "even with just suit systems, they are accurate cuz o' da stuf in da head looking part".

You're ignoring what I said. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely is less equipped than the 'veteran' Crisis Suits.

It's the same difference between the Carapace Armor of your run of the mill Guard Veteran and the Carapace Armor of a Kasrkin. The armor is, overall, the same--but the Kasrkin also has integrated equipment for his helmet that incorporates an auspex, communications gear that normally isn't found on Guard infantry helmets but rather is normally mounted in Vox-Casters, targeting arrays, etc.

Janthkin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

The JSJ is meant to represent the flying into the air, then hovering on a stable firing platform made by the thrust from their suits matching the planet's gravity...yeah, sounds like BS, but it's from the codex. They basically stay dead still in the air, fire, then land and hide.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

The JSJ is meant to represent the flying into the air, then hovering on a stable firing platform made by the thrust from their suits matching the planet's gravity...yeah, sounds like BS, but it's from the codex. They basically stay dead still in the air, fire, then land and hide.

It's still not a lot of time to aim.

@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

You seem to forget to read the provided info.

The moment you try to out-BS elves or elves in space is the time when BS is no longer the abbrevation of ballistic skill...just sayin...

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, I am sorry that parasites, orks, and undead don't get any BS7.

In fluff Shadowsun would DEFINATELY kill a single assassin. The only one that MIGHT have a chance would be a vindicaire/Callidus who could take her without her even knowing, but Culexus and Eversor would be spotted, and Melta'd. Plus, she could just fly and shoot them from the air. Without melee, they would not be able to down her shield ('Cept Vindicare) and Callidus who could kill her in her sleep.

lets see...fanfic...goes to dakka fiction...

I am not the one who came up with the idea of Shadowsun at BS7, someone did that near the beginning, I am just saying that on the TT it would be VERY helpful, make Shadowsun worth using, and though it would be unlikely Shadowsun is that skilled, it is vaguely plausible, so I am holding on. How about you? what's your faction? If a hero unit from it who is kinds gimpy had a chance to actually become decent, would you take it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Janthkin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

The JSJ is meant to represent the flying into the air, then hovering on a stable firing platform made by the thrust from their suits matching the planet's gravity...yeah, sounds like BS, but it's from the codex. They basically stay dead still in the air, fire, then land and hide.

It's still not a lot of time to aim.

It is actually several seconds long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForgottenRealm wrote:@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

Don't like it? then WTF are you doing in a thread about Tau? No Trolls allowed.

Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

ForgottenRealm wrote:@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

Regarding Elite and veteran units being able to shoot like...elite veterans?

Retribution wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote:@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

Regarding Elite and veteran units being able to shoot like...elite veterans?

Did you even read my earlier posts? It doesn't sound like it. It's a thread. Scroll up.

ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

im2randomghgh wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

You missed the point of what I said. Not all Tau players care about their FW. I specifically said that I wouldn't take them even if their BS was higher. Other Tau players (well, at least one) have posted here that they just want the cost lowered. I agree with this solution. And I'm not the only Tau player who feels this way. Many of us hate the models even! That's why I've been trying to get you to use numbers from within the codex to support your claim. I mean, if you don't even have the support of many other Tau players, what do you have?

ForgottenRealm wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

You missed the point of what I said. Not all Tau players care about their FW. I specifically said that I wouldn't take them even if their BS was higher. Other Tau players (well, at least one) have posted here that they just want the cost lowered. I agree with this solution. And I'm not the only Tau player who feels this way. Many of us hate the models even! That's why I've been trying to get you to use numbers from within the codex to support your claim. I mean, if you don't even have the support of many other Tau players, what do you have?

Reduced cost is all well and good, but I want the few FW i DO invest in to be able to DO something once I sit them on an objective. Plus I play BIG points games, around 4000, so I don't care too much about points. I DO care about quality, since One of the thing I sometimes run (rarely) is a Manta filled with 188 FW.

im2randomghgh wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

You missed the point of what I said. Not all Tau players care about their FW. I specifically said that I wouldn't take them even if their BS was higher. Other Tau players (well, at least one) have posted here that they just want the cost lowered. I agree with this solution. And I'm not the only Tau player who feels this way. Many of us hate the models even! That's why I've been trying to get you to use numbers from within the codex to support your claim. I mean, if you don't even have the support of many other Tau players, what do you have?

Reduced cost is all well and good, but I want the few FW i DO invest in to be able to DO something once I sit them on an objective. Plus I play BIG points games, around 4000, so I don't care too much about points. I DO care about quality, since One of the thing I sometimes run (rarely) is a Manta filled with 188 FW.

See, here is the first self explanatory thing you've said: "I" want...maybe not many other people do and you just need to deal with it?

im2randomghgh wrote:
/rant

And I'm sorry. I'm really sorry that I missed this in your first post.

I said I would like BS7 on Shadowsun, but I also said I didn't expect them to do it in the same post.

Also, what's this I heard about setting Fire Warriors on Objectives? You don't to that. Even the Codex Says so. Gotta keep moving then on the last turn take the objective.

The Tau don't see territory as important as living Soldiers and are willing to give ground up to keep some guys alive (or give up some ground to take out some enemy) That's why we have a Strategy rating of 1.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I said I would like BS7 on Shadowsun, but I also said I didn't expect them to do it in the same post.

Also, what's this I heard about setting Fire Warriors on Objectives? You don't to that. Even the Codex Says so. Gotta keep moving then on the last turn take the objective.

The Tau don't see territory as important as living Soldiers and are willing to give ground up to keep some guys alive (or give up some ground to take out some enemy) That's why we have a Strategy rating of 1.

I put them there on turn five usually.

Clear the way with suits, move the tau to objective, support with suits.

I think the Tau have a strategy rating of 1 because they have trouble reacting to threats from a galactic perspective rather than a battlefield one.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have a strategy rating of 1 because they have trouble reacting to threats from a galactic perspective rather than a battlefield one.

I have never understood the point of strategy ratings.

They were a big thing in 4th edtion(i think). my FLGS never used them because we always just killed each other for five turns. Now they do objective missions though.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have a strategy rating of 1 because they have trouble reacting to threats from a galactic perspective rather than a battlefield one.

Doesn't it say in the Tau Codex that the Tau rely on plan after plan in battle, and when those plans are exhausted they retreat? It's presumably part of why Astartes hammer them so much - the Astartes can move quick enough that the Tau don't get a chance to regroup and replan, and they struggle to adapt in the field.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have a strategy rating of 1 because they have trouble reacting to threats from a galactic perspective rather than a battlefield one.

Doesn't it say in the Tau Codex that the Tau rely on plan after plan in battle, and when those plans are exhausted they retreat? It's presumably part of why Astartes hammer them so much - the Astartes can move quick enough that the Tau don't get a chance to regroup and replan, and they struggle to adapt in the field.

There commanders are actually pretty dynamic, the problem is the people under the commander rely on them for every single minor order. The commander can't be everywhere at once.

No, the startegy ratings represent how forces react on the galactic level. If planet X is threatened it takes the Tau a while to react both it getting the message out due to a lack of astropaths and getting the actual reinforcements in theatre because of slow warp travel.

Just like the IG is a giant but ponderous organization that can take years to be deployed.

Conversely the Space Marines are designed for rapid response and the Eldar always seem to appear out of nowhere, sometimes even before the incident has happened.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, the startegy ratings represent how forces react on the galactic level. If planet X is threatened it takes the Tau a while to react both it getting the message out due to a lack of astropaths and getting the actual reinforcements in theatre because of slow warp travel.

Just like the IG is a giant but ponderous organization that can take years to be deployed.

Conversely the Space Marines are designed for rapid response and the Eldar always seem to appear out of nowhere, sometimes even before the incident has happened.

I see. Well, despite that, Tau space is incredibly dense. Within a Tau's short lifespan you could traverse easily half/a third of it, without FTL.

What? Most planets are like 10 light years apart. I don't think the Tau Empire is 4 stars across.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What? Most planets are like 10 light years apart. I don't think the Tau Empire is 4 stars across.

So you think the Earth is 10 lightyears from Mars? Interesting.

And I said a third.

Plus, their Empire is stated as being 100 LY across.

Fine, I misspoke. Most Star Systems are like 10 light years apart.

Read Tau Empire, pg 6, last paragraph. Get your own facts straight!

ForgottenRealm wrote:Read Tau Empire, pg 6, last paragraph. Get your own facts straight!

Sorry, I was thinking Codex Tau, bak with the second sphere


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Fine, I misspoke. Most Star Systems are like 10 light years apart.

Yeah, that was a bit dickish of me, but it's just kinda a pet peeve of mine...

And so are most habitable planets not terraformed (and one per star system is rather generous).

Hashbeth wrote:And so are most habitable planets not terraformed (and one per star system is rather generous).

No, the Tau like it hot and dry.

Yes but not so hot they die/so cold they die. A "habitable" planet is not the most common occurance in the universe. Gas giants, atmosphereless planets, and planets wreathed in deadly gasses are the norm. A "habitable" planet for life beyond the bacterial form is quite rare.

Hashbeth wrote:Yes but not so hot they die/so cold they die. A "habitable" planet is not the most common occurance in the universe. Gas giants, atmosphereless planets, and planets wreathed in deadly gasses are the norm. A "habitable" planet for life beyond the bacterial form is quite rare.

Either way, they do T'auformation on planets. In one book (forget which) space marines were reacting to Tau occupation and remarked upon the fact that the planet was several times dryer than it had previously been.

I'm sure. I'm just saying, 4 'habitable palnets' could easily span 10 light years.

Its generally rare for a star system to have more then 1 habitable planet. several that can support life with mild alterations and climate control for sure, but multiple planets with life is rare.

the Sol system is 1 light year accross at the orbit of the furthest planetary body. IIRC, the average distance between stars in the Tau empire is somewhere in the area of 20-30 light years being as its a dense cluster of stars. elsewhere, stars are many times farther apart except for the galactic core.

Grey Templar wrote:Its generally rare for a star system to have more then 1 habitable planet. several that can support life with mild alterations and climate control for sure, but multiple planets with life is rare.

the Sol system is 1 light year accross at the orbit of the furthest planetary body. IIRC, the average distance between stars in the Tau empire is somewhere in the area of 20-30 light years being as its a dense cluster of stars. elsewhere, stars are many times farther apart except for the galactic core.

TE=300 lightyears.

And Sol has two liveable planets.

If we introduce plant life to Mars, we can make the atmosphere breathable, and it is -60 C average on Mars, which is liveable, and there is water ice on the poles.


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Only the 900km/h winds might be a problem...underground living?

And let's not forget the years of terraforming to create an atmosphere.

And many systems just have large gas giants, that may have moons, but they are strategic outposts at best.

Again, the main issue is that the tau empire is rather stretched that way, most likely (in terms of distance, especially with non ftl travel)

Mars, as it is, is uninhabitable, sealed enviroments don't count. It needs terraforming to be anything near livable.

Habitable as I take it, means it can support human life without changes. switch in whatever sapient species you wish.


Mars, currently, is potentially habitable with alot of work. I personally like the idea NASA is kicking around about the permant colony(where they ship you off for a one way trip, 50 years old and up only)

Grey Templar wrote:Mars, as it is, is uninhabitable, sealed enviroments don't count. It needs terraforming to be anything near livable.

Habitable as I take it, means it can support human life without changes. switch in whatever sapient species you wish.


Mars, currently, is potentially habitable with alot of work. I personally like the idea NASA is kicking around about the permant colony(where they ship you off for a one way trip, 50 years old and up only)

I believe they are planning on lunar colonisation first.

And the only truly unlivable aspect of Mars is the Carbon Dioxide atmosphere. But the plant solution would solve that AND provide food.

Grey Templar wrote:Its generally rare for a star system to have more then 1 habitable planet. several that can support life with mild alterations and climate control for sure, but multiple planets with life is rare.

the Sol system is 1 light year accross at the orbit of the furthest planetary body. IIRC, the average distance between stars in the Tau empire is somewhere in the area of 20-30 light years being as its a dense cluster of stars. elsewhere, stars are many times farther apart except for the galactic core.

It's about 1LY to the Oort Cloud. It's theorized that our Oort cloud bumps up against our neighbor's, Proxima Centauri. Between our Sun and Proxima Centauri lies about 4 light years. While this is by no mean the closest two stars can get, it is doubtful that habitable planets can be in systems very much closer. Probably no closer than 2 LY and not suffer too many gravitational/radiation issues.


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And for fiction very close to reality, I recommend you read Red Mars, Blue Mars, and Green Mars (forget the author) or Entering Space by Robert Zubrin for a pretty damn comprehensive piece of non-fiction. Very informative.

Anyways, the Tau shoot with resounding averageness.

Indeed.

Actually, slightly off topic, a cool theory floating around has been using greenhouse gasses to terraform mars (heat it up) via burning large reservoirs of CO2 to fill the planet and heat it up. It's not too difficult (compared to other things) and then it's just a question of engineering a device or plant species to introduce oxygen and lower some of the CO2 (while still keeping the planet at a livable warmth).

But for this conversation, Tau terraforming a single planet would be a huge pain, as they don't have ftl travel, and the distance between systems is still monumental, even if travelling at 1/2 Light SPeed (a tall order)

Perhaps 'tis travel that has rendered the firewarrior bs3. They're just all worn out

Tau use warp travel! It's just 1/5 as fast as Imperial Warp Travel.

Actually, it's likely to be just as fast. They just don't stay in the Warp as long due to no Navigators. Short hops.

Hashbeth wrote:Indeed.

Actually, slightly off topic, a cool theory floating around has been using greenhouse gasses to terraform mars (heat it up) via burning large reservoirs of CO2 to fill the planet and heat it up. It's not too difficult (compared to other things) and then it's just a question of engineering a device or plant species to introduce oxygen and lower some of the CO2 (while still keeping the planet at a livable warmth).

But for this conversation, Tau terraforming a single planet would be a huge pain, as they don't have ftl travel, and the distance between systems is still monumental, even if travelling at 1/2 Light SPeed (a tall order)

Perhaps 'tis travel that has rendered the firewarrior bs3. They're just all worn out

They DO have FTL.

ANd the temperature isn't unlivable. -60 C is average. I spent a while in Nunavut in the 90's, and one day (I think it was actually a record) with windchill it went to -72C. I lived. On the equator, at the right time of year, it can get up to 23 C, T-shirt weather.


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ForgottenRealm wrote:Actually, it's likely to be just as fast. They just don't stay in the Warp as long due to no Navigators. Short hops.

Due to no astronomican and no comprehension too. The Nicassar are kind-of-but-not-really Navigator equivalents. Warp tug-boats, if you will.

Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

ForgottenRealm wrote:Actually, it's likely to be just as fast. They just don't stay in the Warp as long due to no Navigators. Short hops.

Well, technically the Warp Jumps are just as fast, but due to the fact that instead of plunging themselves into the Warp until they reach their destination they just kind of skim the surface, it's effectively slower.

The codex directly states it is 1/5th the speed. No guessing required.

1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

Hashbeth wrote:Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

They have the psychic Nicassar lead them a short way into the warp, then they leave before daemons attack due to no Gellar Fields.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB1l9KKILzg

They swim a few meter (lightyears) then jump out (real space) and go back in.


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Hashbeth wrote:1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

No, 1/5 Imperial Warp travel, still many times the SoL

But still quite slow, as the Imperial ship travel rate is also...kinda slow.

Anyway, though, back to BS3.

Maybe using a railgun horizontally is an issue? Really, they're best for long range ballistic assaults. If you use one horizontally, then you're wasting energy. And that is bad. It's like...war littering

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The codex directly states it is 1/5th the speed. No guessing required.

Tau Empire? On what page?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

They have the psychic Nicassar lead them a short way into the warp, then they leave before daemons attack due to no Gellar Fields.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB1l9KKILzg

They swim a few meter (lightyears) then jump out (real space) and go back in.


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Hashbeth wrote:1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

No, 1/5 Imperial Warp travel, still many times the SoL

Do you have any citations for this Nicassar theory? AFAIK they actually utilize subluminal travel and avoid the imaterium. They may even use generational ships they are so slow.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

They have the psychic Nicassar lead them a short way into the warp, then they leave before daemons attack due to no Gellar Fields.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB1l9KKILzg

They swim a few meter (lightyears) then jump out (real space) and go back in.


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Hashbeth wrote:1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

No, 1/5 Imperial Warp travel, still many times the SoL

Do you have any citations for this Nicassar theory? AFAIK they actually utilize subluminal travel and avoid the imaterium. They may even use generational ships they are so slow.

Where are the citations for your claims?

I may be partly responsible, but what does FTL have to do with BS3? Maybe we should start a tau ftl thread?

The Nicassar are telekinetic - they use themselves to move the ships like sublight engines. Psykers in 40k aren't just 'psychic', they have specific talents. For example, the Emperor is claimed to be the most potent psyker who has ever lived, but he did not posess the talent of farsight.

'Guiding' a ship through the warp is done by ustilising a specifically designed talent in the Navigators to see the Astronomican - basically using it as a point of reference for distance, which is why even with guidance, warp travel is risky. It can be obscured.

Nothing in the fluff has even hinted at the Nicassar having a talent to utilize anything as a point of reference to make warp travel in any way reliable.

Hashbeth wrote:But still quite slow, as the Imperial ship travel rate is also...kinda slow.

Imperial Warp travel isn't all that slow. in the time it takes the Tau to cross their empire from one end to the other, an Imperial Fleet could have left Terra for Ultramar, arrived and started whatever they are going there for. Humans also live longer then the Tau so they actually get even more advantage out of their faster method of travel.

Hashbeth wrote:
Maybe using a railgun horizontally is an issue? Really, they're best for long range ballistic assaults. If you use one horizontally, then you're wasting energy. And that is bad. It's like...war littering

Horizonal vs Vertical isn't going to change much. While they do use a ballistic trajectory, its so shallow that it takes a long time for the slug to drop any distance. Current Railgun testing is talking about weapons with ranges in the 250 mile range. nothing prevents you from leveling the gun and firing direct. this is certaintly preferable if the target is in a certain distance, it could take far longer for a ballistically fired projectile to reach its target then one fired directly in some cases. thats the main principal with the "Time on Target" tactic of bombardment. you fire shells at increasingly lower angles so that every shell lands simultaniously. the first shells fired are in the air longer.

I could toss the rock towards you at a 20 degree angle, or a 70 degree angle. the 20 degree angle toss will probably reach you first(just randomly named angles there, not mathamatically sound)

That's true, but for the rail gun, the energy in mega-joules required to launch the projectile at speed is immense. You should attempt to maximize benefit (and the further you fire from, given the rail-guns high ballistic accuracy, the less danger you have to be in, especially if fire-warriors are engaged in front of you).

And time on target is effective, but rounds used in ToT are often normal incindiary/high explosive, and do not require massive Mega-joule power-spikes.

Uhhhh...I believe that's why those Tau weapons have such long ranges?

Yes...but they still fire them at less efficient trajectories. If you can fire a rail gun over miles, why are they on the battlefield?

The 16 MJ cannon, rail-gun, currently being built by the navy (there is an 8mj prototype) has a range of 100 nautical miles+. I'm sure the tau have better technology. Why not keep them super-long range artillery, rather than sticking them on tanks, where they are less efficient?

Firing a Railgun over long distances at a moving target could be tricky. its not like an artillery shell where you just need to be within X meters of the target. a Railgun, solid shot, fired at a tank needs to hit the actual tank.

a flechette round is less difficult, but its still a precision weapon.


an informed target, or one in an urban battlefield, could simply keep moving and stay safe. and then there is vertical cover.

Because it fills a tactical gap that the Tau have? It is always desirable to field both kinetic energy weapons AND directed energy weapons AND chemical energy weapons. It allows you to remain flexible in the operational environment and meet changing battlefield needs. (more dakka, so to speak)


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Grey Templar wrote:Firing a Railgun over long distances at a moving target could be tricky. its not like an artillery shell where you just need to be within X meters of the target. a Railgun, solid shot, fired at a tank needs to hit the actual tank.

a flechette round is less difficult, but its still a precision weapon.


an informed target, or one in an urban battlefield, could simply keep moving and stay safe. and then there is vertical cover.

Well, for scale comparison, a 2.75 inch flechette rocket (look them up) can cover a football field in foot long metal darts. Not exactly requiring precision there...

Besides, traditional flechette weapons are AP not AT

Actually, a rail-gun doesn't need to hit the tank. They are quite explosive. They actually explode with greater force than many incendiary/high explosive rounds, as they amass RIDICULOUS amounts of kinetic energy. In fact, light armor anti-aircraft/personnel (including those in unarmored buildings) rail-rounds are designed to break open before impact, and rain shrapnel (nail-like projectiles) on a target area, killing soft targets, destroying aircraft, and wiping out light vehicles. Each one hits causing a small explosion.

Think of it like a controlled meteor...fired from a cannon. Fired so fast it lights the air on fire behind it from friction. Yeah...they are awesome

Regarding the speed of Tau ships, their BFG suplement notices that the old explorer class reaches speeds of up to 1/5 of standard Imperial warpspeed while the more modern Merchant class
reaches up to 1/3 of the standard imperial warpspeed. It can be speculated that even more modern designs reach even higher speeds, but i know of no fluff which would support such a claim.

It's not speed so much as range. Extremely short distances compared to Imperial Warp jumps, hence why they're clustered in such a small area of space. The Kroot have Warp technology and navigators of some kind, but obviously refuse to give the Tau their technology. Demiurg must also have some form of FTL, which they also have not shared. Nicassar are slow, and are towed by Tau ships for this reason. They're used as explorers that take years to travel any real distances.

few pages back but as directly adressed :

im2randomghgh wrote:
I am not the one who came up with the idea of Shadowsun at BS7, someone did that near the beginning, I am just saying that on the TT it would be VERY helpful, make Shadowsun worth using, and though it would be unlikely Shadowsun is that skilled, it is vaguely plausible, so I am holding on.

The point stays, only elves got high natural BS.
Certainly, craftworlders could make an argument why they are left behind their darker cousins.
Necrons are just tech, so if tech improves BS they should be really godlike then?
Nids improve and their hyper-evolution may allow to raise their BS stats, no?
In both cases, neither tech nor biology meant an army got high BS. So natural BS has to be closer to the basic 3 in general.

Tau are about upgrades, but I agree with Janthkin there will be limits.
One of the limiting factors be game balance, as stated when Tau were designed and half a page spent on balancing of the suits. ( WD )
The other factor is the common BS 5, if most armies are given that for HQ's its unlikely a 7 is coming her way.
The next one is the age of the codex. Changes will affect the role of her, not the statline.

im2randomghgh wrote: How about you? what's your faction?

Did I post at dakka sometimes? shouldn't be a secret where I put my money on.

im2randomghgh wrote: If a hero unit from it who is kinds gimpy had a chance to actually become decent, would you take it?

There is a price to pay.
I'd rather have a usable hero unit with believable fluff than "he who shall not be named" pimping said hero to ridiculous levels.
The theme and the balance also got more influence at what specific characters/units may become.
Without the overall theme and the design philosophy of the edition present then, shots at the statline are at best guessing in the dark.
Tau are not yet in 5th ed, and could land in 6th possibly.

A few comments about the last few pages:

The Tau Empire is situated in a small but unusually densely populated area of the galaxy with an abnormally high number of habitable worlds. (Codex: Tau Empire, first few pages).

Nicassar are stated to use their telekinetic powers to move their flotillas through space. They are fairly quick for in-system movement but slow on the "warp jump" type of speed scale. BFG mentions how only a portion of the population remains out of stasis when they cross a void in space (between systems) and sometimes hitch a ride with Tau fleets.

The problem these discussions always run into is separating fluff from the necessity of game balance. They supposedly have poor distance vision but have the longest range troop weapon in the game that does more damage than a bolter. They have the strongest long-range anti-tank weapon in the game but people seem to think they're lucky if they can take down a weak titan. They're extemely weak in close combat but their veteran sergeants don't shoot any better than a 17 year old space marine scout. They pilot advanced battlesuits and the codex says they are packed with sensor and targeting equipment but still shot at BS3.

It all boils down to fluff vs. game balance with a bit of codex creep thrown in for good measure. It's been said before but I'll say it again. Basic firewarriors are fine at BS3 with a point reduction and come equipped with grenades. I think some sort of drone-based special weapon system wouldn't be a bad idea either to at least give them some flexibility but I'm not going to hold my breath. Elite and Pathfinders need to be BS4 to denote experience and specialized training/equipment. I say pathfinders because it's sad that the only thing that can make firing more effective in the Tau army (markerlights) misses half of the time and is too expensive to take an adequate number to be useful and they die just as fast as everything else in the army which makes them less useful than IG orders after turn 2 of the game.

There were some rumors going around a couple of months ago that Demiurg might make an appearance in the next codex. That'd be great and the conspiracy theorist in me thinks it might be why Mantic's coming out with their squat line (probably not but it'd be ironic).

-Loki- wrote:The Nicassar are telekinetic - they use themselves to move the ships like sublight engines. Psykers in 40k aren't just 'psychic', they have specific talents. For example, the Emperor is claimed to be the most potent psyker who has ever lived, but he did not posess the talent of farsight.

'Guiding' a ship through the warp is done by ustilising a specifically designed talent in the Navigators to see the Astronomican - basically using it as a point of reference for distance, which is why even with guidance, warp travel is risky. It can be obscured.

Nothing in the fluff has even hinted at the Nicassar having a talent to utilize anything as a point of reference to make warp travel in any way reliable.

Actually, he did. He already knew what Garro had to say before he arrived.