The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

No use in beating a dead horse. A lot of people, myself included, think that much of the fluff in Codex GKs is over the top. A lot do not. But this has been covered in many other threads already.If you really want to feel the hate, use the search function, as I'm sure this thread will be locked before too long.

^In similar news, the Squats have been eaten by Tyranids.^

Edited to make sarcasm more obvious.

English Assassin wrote:In similar news, the Squats have been eaten by Tyranids.

Thank god. They were such a horribly executed idea.

edit:700 posts!

Carving his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart or being so unstoppable the Daemons of the Warp avoid him is where the line was crossed.

I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Because Chaos Gods are toying with him. They diliberatelly let him go around the Warp and destroying everything they throw at him just to see him get sweat by destroying all that over and over and over...
At least, I would believe that if not for sentence:"just as Draigo coudn't kill Dark Gods, so Dark Gods couldn't force Draigo out of the Warp". That sentence ( at least for me ) turned around all situation. Now it looks like he is rampaging across Warp and Chaos Gods are actually trying to findin a way to get rid of him ( since they can't kill him for some reason ).
I personally believe that Emperor himself is protecting Draigo and keeps him into the Warp to Troll Chaos Gods
For the real reason why: send e-mail to Matt Ward. As dor the people liking this, some people like the fact that codex Space Marines is full of ultramarine background, that Grey Knights need to turn Sisters into armorr paint to remain incorruptible, that Blood Angel and Necron alliance is a good thing, that Mephiston tear trough entire Tyranid force alone is logical, that Grey Knights call Orbital Bombardments on themselves and then peacefully walk away is actually cool.... everybody have their own opinions and likes...

Meh, Draigo and the Grey Knight codex doesn't really strike me as any more hackneyed and cliché then the rest of WH40K and WHFB. The whole thing is over the top Mary Sue.

Brother Coa wrote:Because Chaos Gods are toying with him. They diliberatelly let him go around the Warp and destroying everything they throw at him just to see him get sweat by destroying all that over and over and over...
At least, I would believe that if not for sentence:"just as Draigo coudn't kill Dark Gods, so Dark Gods couldn't force Draigo out of the Warp". That sentence ( at least for me ) turned around all situation. Now it looks like he is rampaging across Warp and Chaos Gods are actually trying to findin a way to get rid of him ( since they can't kill him for some reason ).
I personally believe that Emperor himself is protecting Draigo and keeps him into the Warp to Troll Chaos Gods
For the real reason why: send e-mail to Matt Ward. As dor the people liking this, some people like the fact that codex Space Marines is full of ultramarine background, that Grey Knights need to turn Sisters into armorr paint to remain incorruptible, that Blood Angel and Necron alliance is a good thing, that Mephiston tear trough entire Tyranid force alone is logical, that Grey Knights call Orbital Bombardments on themselves and then peacefully walk away is actually cool.... everybody have their own opinions and likes...

Draigo. The ultimate troll of 40k

I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

The fluff behind Draigo doesn't convey any sense of tragedy. That may of been Ward's intention, but because the man can't write worth a damn he could not adequately put it to paper.

It's not the internet. It's that bad.

Void__Dragon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

The fluff behind Draigo doesn't convey any sense of tragedy.

Or maybe people just don't look beneath the surface of the story and bother thinking about it?

Harriticus wrote:the Daemons of the Warp avoid him is where the line was crossed.

...Really? You must not be aware that Daemons, period, go out of their way to avoid Grey Knights.

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

I'm not just fine with it, I actively like it a lot.


He accomplishes all these great deeds in the realm of chaos, but nothing he does ever matters and nothing he does lasts longer than a day. He can never fight against things that threaten the Imperium. He can never do anything.

He's an analogy for the Imperium. Full of heroic deeds, super strong and great. You think that is dumb, because you can't understand that nothing he ever does is significant. He wrecks stuff in the warp, and it doesn't matter. It's all the same the next day. It's exactly like how the Imperium is faring, heroically holding the line while at the end of the day evil still grows stronger and humanity fades ever so slightly more away.

ph34r wrote:I'm not just fine with it, I actively like it a lot.


He accomplishes all these great deeds in the realm of chaos, but nothing he does ever matters and nothing he does lasts longer than a day. He can never fight against things that threaten the Imperium. He can never do anything.

He's an analogy for the Imperium. Full of heroic deeds, super strong and great. You think that is dumb, because you can't understand that nothing he ever does is significant. He wrecks stuff in the warp, and it doesn't matter. It's all the same the next day. It's exactly like how the Imperium is faring, heroically holding the line while at the end of the day evil still grows stronger and humanity fades ever so slightly more away.

I agree with ph34r.


Also, the Devil called, he's begging for some blankets. Seems there's some sort of frost damage going on at his place...

People need to stop complaining about ward in general, if they don't like it, don't read it. no need to internet rant over it...

People need to stop complaining about things they can't fix in a wargaming hobby. Helk he's stats aren't horribly powerful that it makes abaddon look bad.
Helk it just makes him that much of a target. Hey guys lets fire our lascannons and melta weapons at him for lulz! 1st turn draigo is dead.....
Helk a plasma cannon could kill him. I have faced him before and he died the first turn because I decided to make his force split up. Face it just out smart the player and you will win.

Draigo in lore is bad. But he is basically the Light Side version of Abaddon. Lets see Warmaster of Chaos vs The Great Grand Master.... Hmmm.same amount letters too.

I don't hate it. I'm not enthralled with it either. Then again, if he had won, got sucked into the warp and was promptly killed he wouldn't be quite as heroic, or "tragic", or really all that impressive to read about. The whole Grey Knights Chapter sets the bar pretty high in order to actually be impressive. I appreciate the effort at creating a tragic hero so full of purpose, fighting on, despite the fact he never really accomplishes anything.

I might have a problem if the he rampaged all over Khorne, defeated Tzeentch in chess, developed a Nurgle vaccine, and Slaanesh to death, all the while on his way to firing up the defibrillator and reviving the Emperor's corpse.

That might be to much.

It is my most disliked part of the background.

My most disliked part of the background is the naming of Canis Wolfborn and the fact that my freaking Dark Angels Codex didn't have the Mortis Dreadnought(A PATTERN FOUND SOLELY IN THE POSSESSION OF THE UNFORGIVEN CHAPTERS) in it yet most Space Marine codices(and even the Grey Knights book) have them.

Yea draigo just seems like the overly cliched badass that people get tired of really quickly

The thing is, Grey Knights are all consummate daemon hunters. The Grand Masters are the most experienced and proficient of the chapter and the Supreme Grand Master is first amongst them. They spend centuries learning and practicing every possible method of destroying daemons. This is the only thing Draigo ever actually does. He kills daemons. He does it very well, but would you expect the Chapter Master to be anything less? When he struck down Mortarion, he just finished fighting the LAST Master.

As for his Warp adventures, it's a Sisyphean tale. He labours hard, slowly accomplishing much, but it all becomes undone with ease. While the writing is not super amazing, the concept is there. He is the greatest daemonslayer ever, racking up a tally of daemon after daemon, and it makes as much difference as taking a cup of water out of the ocean. Then dropping it. The ultimate futility of his exploits is a classic tragedy.

Brother Coa wrote:
I personally believe that Emperor himself is protecting Draigo and keeps him into the Warp to Troll Chaos Gods

That is the best explanation of Draigo fluff that I've ever read. I love the idea of the Emprah keeping Draigo going in the warp just to annoy the chaos gods

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

You give GW far too much credit. They're nowhere near that deep.

Farseer Petriel wrote:

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

Actually Eldrad is nothing but a shiny rock now. He sacrificed himself to take down a black fortress. If he was the perfect farseer he would have just mind-blown it.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

Actually Eldrad is nothing but a shiny rock now. He sacrificed himself to take down a black fortress. If he was the perfect farseer he would have just mind-blown it.

Then he has perfect moral qualities so he will resurrect like Gandalf after being nearly killed by Balrog.

ph34r wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for

I'm not just fine with it, I actively like it a lot.


He accomplishes all these great deeds in the realm of chaos, but nothing he does ever matters and nothing he does lasts longer than a day. He can never fight against things that threaten the Imperium. He can never do anything.

He's an analogy for the Imperium. Full of heroic deeds, super strong and great. You think that is dumb, because you can't understand that nothing he ever does is significant. He wrecks stuff in the warp, and it doesn't matter. It's all the same the next day. It's exactly like how the Imperium is faring, heroically holding the line while at the end of the day evil still grows stronger and humanity fades ever so slightly more away.

Yes, but the fact draigo did all that stuff in the first place is what annoys people


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Petriel wrote:

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

Bein "perfectly bad" doesn't count as a mary sue. We count mary sue in our own terms of what is what. Bein bad, really attomatically makes you not a mary sue...

Sure in the codex entry for these characters, they dont mention anythin' bad, but, thats because it's their own entry. If there is one character khorne beserker out of 100,000 i don't really mind if it talks up about him.

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

Seriously? This fething thread again? Why in the hell did you think about posting this? Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

Because Matt Ward is bad writer.
They seriously need to get Abnett into codex business.

Brother Coa wrote:Because Matt Ward is bad writer.

I wouldn't cast stones if I were you.

They seriously need to get Abnett into codex business.

No, they don't. The fluff in the codices is fine.

They need to get Abnett, his fluff is just pure epic ( at least to me ).

Brother Coa wrote:They need to get Abnett, his fluff is just pure epic ( at least to me ).

No, the don't. The fluff is fine, ignore what you don't like, or at least try to understand what a passage REALLY means instead of relying on the usual Internet hyperbole and 4chan as your sources.

On 4chan is stated about Draigo what you have just said, that he is pawn to Chaos Gods. I think that he is trolling them. How long you need to understand taht I think about Draigo that way because I read the damn text myself? I also think that Space Wolf fluff is awesome, and that Ultramarines are awesome, while 4chan likes to insult them to the core.
And I think taht Chaos Gods are not gods at all - but 4 very powerful Daemons or creatures of the Warp who are addicted to our emotions. To me the Emperor is only true god of 40k universe.
Find me that on 4chan.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

Seriously? This fething thread again? Why in the hell did you think about posting this? Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

Again, that's giving Ward and GW quite a lot of credit, and requires a fair amount of reading between the lines.

Or, you could simply take it at face value: Ward wrote an unstoppable badass who carves his name into the hearts of Daemon Princes, and despite being trapped in the warp, still manages to destroy everything he touches while remaining completely pure. Dude destroys daemon-cities single-handedly.

Tragic character or badly-written Mary Sue? Personally, my money's on the latter. (Some) Black Library guys can do subtlety and nuance, but I've yet to see it from the studio folks. See: Canis Wolfborn.

Brother Coa wrote:On 4chan is stated about Draigo what you have just said, that he is pawn to Chaos Gods. I think that he is trolling them. How long you need to understand taht I think about Draigo that way because I read the damn text myself? I also think that Space Wolf fluff is awesome, and that Ultramarines are awesome, while 4chan likes to insult them to the core.
And I think taht Chaos Gods are not gods at all - but 4 very powerful Daemons or creatures of the Warp who are addicted to our emotions. To me the Emperor is only true god of 40k universe.
Find me that on 4chan.

You're not going to find anything I said about Draigo on 4chan. Just that he's a Mary-sue, but 1d4chan is far from a repository of reason and logic.
That last part is fan-mad conjecture and contradictory of the fluff. The Chaos Gods are not just 4 daemons, they're much more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

Seriously? This fething thread again? Why in the hell did you think about posting this? Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

Again, that's giving Ward and GW quite a lot of credit, and requires a fair amount of reading between the lines.

Or, you could simply take it at face value: Ward wrote an unstoppable badass who carves his name into the hearts of Daemon Princes, and despite being trapped in the warp, still manages to destroy everything he touches while remaining completely pure. Dude destroys daemon-cities single-handedly.

Tragic character or badly-written Mary Sue? Personally, my money's on the latter. (Some) Black Library guys can do subtlety and nuance, but I've yet to see it from the studio folks. See: Canis Wolfborn.

I'm gonna go with both. He's a badly-written tragic character. He's a badass, but his tragic side is the balancing point. It's simply that it's not written very well, so it doesn't come across at all.

iproxtaco wrote:The Chaos Gods are not just 4 daemons, they're much more.

Not to me...

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm gonna go with both. He's a badly-written tragic character. He's a badass, but his tragic side is the balancing point. It's simply that it's not written very well, so it doesn't come across at all.

I disagree simply because I don't believe the "tragedy" of being the most badass man in the Imperium, capable of taking on anything the warp can throw at him without breaking a sweat, is all that much of a balancing point.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Chaos Gods are not just 4 daemons, they're much more.

Not to me...

Exactly, fanboy conjecture, that contradicts the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm gonna go with both. He's a badly-written tragic character. He's a badass, but his tragic side is the balancing point. It's simply that it's not written very well, so it doesn't come across at all.

I disagree simply because I don't believe the "tragedy" of being the most badass man in the Imperium, capable of taking on anything the warp can throw at him without breaking a sweat, is all that much of a balancing point.

It's balanced by the fact that he's trapped in the Warp like a Daemon, returning only for sporadic trips, like a Daemon, and that anything he accomplishes is meaningless, because it is instantly re-made. That's the tragic side.

They made him the chuck norris of the WH40K universe

Viersche wrote:They made him the chuck norris of the WH40K universe

Ah, did you forget about Marbo? He is the true Chuck Norris of 40k

GreyHamster wrote:
As for his Warp adventures, it's a Sisyphean tale. He labours hard, slowly accomplishing much, but it all becomes undone with ease. While the writing is not super amazing, the concept is there. He is the greatest daemonslayer ever, racking up a tally of daemon after daemon, and it makes as much difference as taking a cup of water out of the ocean. Then dropping it. The ultimate futility of his exploits is a classic tragedy.

In case you dont remember the particulars and google is down for some reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

God punishes man to eternity of pointless existence.
Zues punishes Sisyphus to eternity rolling rock up hill.
M'kar punishes Draigo to eternity killing things that don't actually die.

Its not to much of a stretch to think that a writer might actually consider a theme when writing something. Even if it was not on purpose, it is still there. So, intentional or not, it is a form of literary tragedy.

Kanluwen wrote:
The fluff in the codices is fine.

Thats your definition of fine ?



Draigo isn't chuck norris. Big E is chuck.
Marbo ? is Sly...

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly, fanboy conjecture, that contradicts the fluff.

And fluff tends to get wrong in many times so it can be debated and tear down.
Chaos Gods are not gods, not really. Same as the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The fluff in the codices is fine.

Thats your definition of fine ?

Next thing you will see is Grey Knights and Chaos Daemons fighting Necrons, together.

GreyHamster wrote:The thing is, Grey Knights are all consummate daemon hunters. The Grand Masters are the most experienced and proficient of the chapter and the Supreme Grand Master is first amongst them. They spend centuries learning and practicing every possible method of destroying daemons. This is the only thing Draigo ever actually does. He kills daemons. He does it very well, but would you expect the Chapter Master to be anything less? When he struck down Mortarion, he just finished fighting the LAST Master.

As for his Warp adventures, it's a Sisyphean tale. He labours hard, slowly accomplishing much, but it all becomes undone with ease. While the writing is not super amazing, the concept is there. He is the greatest daemonslayer ever, racking up a tally of daemon after daemon, and it makes as much difference as taking a cup of water out of the ocean. Then dropping it. The ultimate futility of his exploits is a classic tragedy.

I understand what Mud Wart was trying to do, he just took it WAY too literally. WAAAY too literally. 5 squads of GK beating Mortarion in a reality where his powers are enhanced even more would have been too much for me, but a pair of GK? Silly.

The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Commissar Typhus wrote:

Viersche wrote:They made him the chuck norris of the WH40K universe

Ah, did you forget about Marbo? He is the true Chuck Norris of 40k

uh...he's the rambo...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Knowing Ward's unsubtle writing, this most likely would have been mentioned (I am not MW tho, so Obviously I cannot say for sure)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

Khorne should just get violated by Slaanesh. Then the whole world could be better.

forruner_mercy wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

Khorne should just get violated by Slaanesh. Then the whole world could be better.

Or Khorne could just lop off Slaanesh' genitals.

Again, suggesting that Draigo's a Sisyphean character is...well, let me put it this way: you guys really think Ward went from writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Ultramarines to writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Necron Pals to writing...a subtle, tragic character in Codex: Sister Slayers?

I mean, I'd like to think the guy took a creative writing class or two, too, but Draigo's written as a straight-up badass who cannot be defeated by Chaos, not a tragic hero who would seem like he sprang from the mind of Shakespeare by comparison to what Ward usually gives us.

Seaward wrote:Again, suggesting that Draigo's a Sisyphean character is...well, let me put it this way: you guys really think Ward went from writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Ultramarines to writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Necron Pals to writing...a subtle, tragic character in Codex: Sister Slayers?

I mean, I'd like to think the guy took a creative writing class or two, too, but Draigo's written as a straight-up badass who cannot be defeated by Chaos, not a tragic hero who would seem like he sprang from the mind of Shakespeare by comparison to what Ward usually gives us.

I didn't notice too much OOT in the Nilla Wafer Marine codex (other than Calgar beating an avatar in Fisticuffs, but every codex has one guy that just rocks everything in the face)

And now the only thing that bugs me about the Blood Angels codex (now that I've read it) is that the Necron Lord could control time and space, yet Dante was on par with him.

IMO, even after reading the Grey knights Codex (instead of listening to those that quaff Haterade) Nothing really bothers me about it. Draigo does seem like a Clumsy shot at a Sisyphean Character instead of the bane of all chaos, whom beat Khorne at Arm wresting, finished the Times Crossword puzzle before Tzeentch, Convinced Slaanesh to take a Vow of Chastity, and drowned Nurgle in a Bathtub.

To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.


There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

Or Farsight who is still alive (maybe).

Or Shadowsun who blew up a statue of Farsight.

OR Aun'Va who talks about doing all this awesome stuff.

Damn Mary Sues.

Who do the Tau think they are with all these super over the top awesome leaders.

Kanluwen wrote:The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Afraid not.

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

Draigo had no help in smashing through Mortarion's bodyguards and using Mortarion's heart as a diary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Creed is a brilliant strategist and tactician, but that's basically it, and the fandom exagerrates the extent of his genius as well.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

You forgot to mention Harker, who strangles Raveners with his massive biceps. Marbo is stupid and boring, yes.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

The same Marneus Calgar who was dismembered by the Swarmlord.

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

The one who lost to Ghazghkull every time they've fought.

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Considering he's possibly a Phoenix Lord, that's not incredibly impressive, when stacked up to other Phoenix Lords or especially Draigo.

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.

She killed a few Marines, before making a retreat. Whoa.

There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

Considering he has the majority of Chaos Daemons scared to even go near him and nothing inside the Warp seems to so much as slow him down, he's certainly the biggest Godmode Sue in the setting.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Afraid not.

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

Draigo had no help in smashing through Mortarion's bodyguards and using Mortarion's heart as a diary.

"The Battle of Kornovin" implies it's a much bigger thing. Unless you're really going to sit there and try to tell me that the Supreme Grand Master and the Grand Master just walk a beat all around the Imperium lookin' for Daemons.

Kanluwen wrote:"The Battle of Kornovin" implies it's a much bigger thing. Unless you're really going to sit there and try to tell me that the Supreme Grand Master and the Grand Master just walk a beat all around the Imperium lookin' for Daemons.

What are you implying?

The text makes it clear that Draigo did what he did alone and unaided, no, there was probably a battle around them, but Draigo still tore through Mortarion's bodyguards and bested Mortarion himself without any help from the other Grey Knights.

To assume otherwise is unfounded speculation.

CpatTom wrote:Or Farsight who is still alive (maybe).

Or Shadowsun who blew up a statue of Farsight.

OR Aun'Va who talks about doing all this awesome stuff.

Damn Mary Sues.

Who do the Tau think they are with all these super over the top awesome leaders.

Shadowsun is pretty OP, not because she destroyed the farsight statue, but because she fought a tyranid Hive fleet without losing a single ship.

The other Tau Codex characters, not so much. Farsight isn't much older than Shadowsun and Aun'va, while being the leader of the Tau, hasn't done anything (on record) that impressive other than talk the Tau into Ass kicking, Name taking mode.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"The Battle of Kornovin" implies it's a much bigger thing. Unless you're really going to sit there and try to tell me that the Supreme Grand Master and the Grand Master just walk a beat all around the Imperium lookin' for Daemons.

What are you implying?

The text makes it clear that Draigo did what he did alone and unaided, no, there was probably a battle around them, but Draigo still tore through Mortarion's bodyguards and bested Mortarion himself without any help from the other Grey Knights.

What bodyguards? What are we saying "isn't any help from the other Grey Knights"? For a very long time, the simple presence of Grey Knights has been enough to destabilize and weaken Daemons.

Mortarion may have been a Primarch, but guess what? He's a Daemon Primarch now.

To assume otherwise is unfounded speculation.

Just like it is to say that he did it completely by himself, stomping his way past Mortarion with ease and slaughtering every single one of Mortarion's unspecified bodyguards(Were they Nurglings? Plaguebearers? Great Unclean Ones? Or hell, maybe they were Death Guard who'd ascended to Daemonhood).
The simple fact that Mortarion was in realspace rather than the Warp makes him even more vulnerable, and considering the idiot was going up against a force of Grey Knights it reeks of the hubris he exhibited during his time as a Primarch.

Kanluwen wrote:What bodyguards? What are we saying "isn't any help from the other Grey Knights"? For a very long time, the simple presence of Grey Knights has been enough to destabilize and weaken Daemons.

Mortarion may have been a Primarch, but guess what? He's a Daemon Primarch now.

If I had to assume what Mortarion's bodyguards were, I'd guess the Deathshroud, since they served as his bodyguard before Heresy as well. Beyond that, it doesn't say. Mortarion may be a Daemon Primarch, but you can't find any other instance of a Daemon Primarch being beaten by one guy. And it says a lot that Draigo beating Mortarion isn't actually his most impressive feat.

Angron required a hundred Grey Knight Terminators to banish him and his bodyguard. Mortarion required one guy.

Just like it is to say that he did it completely by himself, stomping his way past Mortarion with ease and slaughtering every single one of Mortarion's unspecified bodyguards(Were they Nurglings? Plaguebearers? Great Unclean Ones? Or hell, maybe they were Death Guard who'd ascended to Daemonhood).
The simple fact that Mortarion was in realspace rather than the Warp makes him even more vulnerable, and considering the idiot was going up against a force of Grey Knights it reeks of the hubris he exhibited during his time as a Primarch.

Only it says he did it completely by himself. If you can't admit that, you're in denial.

It's not like Mortarion was alone, he was probably leading an army. But that's largely beside the point, Mortarion was able to successfully and personally kill the Supreme Grand Master, but then got roflstomped by Draigo. And once more, that's not actually Draigo's best feat, which speaks volumes. I was just pointing out that the text makes it clear that, contrary to your assumption, he was alone and unaided.

Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

Kanluwen wrote:Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

To be fair, the text itself does say, "alone and unaided." It's pretty hard to make an argument against him doing it, you know, alone and unaided.

As for the earlier posts, I'll certainly grant you that Marneus Calgar is over-the-top BS, but look who wrote him. Creed? Smart general. Lost over half of Cadia. Not exactly a man without failures. Marbo? He is, of course, over the top, as he's a joke character - the name's an anagram of "Rambo," for those who don't do their daily Jumble.

Seaward wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

To be fair, the text itself does say, "alone and unaided." It's pretty hard to make an argument against him doing it, you know, alone and unaided.

No, it's really not. It simply says that he defeated Mortarion alone an unaided. And it's not even like he killed Mortarion. He simply defeated him. How, we do not know. The Grey Knights do know how to bind and disrupt Daemonic forces, so for all we know he could have said Abbrafreakingcadabra and held Mortarion still.
Why wouldn't it have worked for the Supreme Grandmaster? Who knows. Maybe Mortarion had to be weakened first. Maybe Mortarion's like a big, zombie freakin' Pokemon.

As for the earlier posts, I'll certainly grant you that Marneus Calgar is over-the-top BS, but look who wrote him.

Marneus Calgar's fluff hasn't changed for a long time.

Creed? Smart general. Lost over half of Cadia. Not exactly a man without failures.

Be fair. He "lost over half of Cadia" to the single largest incursion of Traitor Astartes since the Horus Heresy itself.

Marbo? He is, of course, over the top, as he's a joke character - the name's an anagram of "Rambo," for those who don't do their daily Jumble.

Yeah...I hope they kill him off. Freakin' waste a development slot with that joker. Nice friggin' job Cruddace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also take this moment to say that the Grey Knights Codex has one problem that is symptomatic of almost every Codex within recent years.

They've added "fluff" to justify a page count. They don't elaborate entirely upon the stuff, they just let it sit there and do nothing with it. Sometimes you'll see a tie-in later on to another army book, but mostly it just rots.

We know how be defeated him: the old single-handily carving a name into his heart after dispatching his deamon prince retinue alone and unaided trick.

Kanluwen wrote:Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

I accept your concession.

P.S. Try to concede with a bit more dignity next time, you don't have to throw a temper tantrum because you were wrong.

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's really not. It simply says that he defeated Mortarion alone an unaided. And it's not even like he killed Mortarion. He simply defeated him. How, we do not know. The Grey Knights do know how to bind and disrupt Daemonic forces, so for all we know he could have said Abbrafreakingcadabra and held Mortarion still.
Why wouldn't it have worked for the Supreme Grandmaster? Who knows. Maybe Mortarion had to be weakened first. Maybe Mortarion's like a big, zombie freakin' Pokemon.

Let's be honest; if I wrote, in a DIY Index Astartes, that the Grand Master of the Space Cowboys defeated Magnus alone and unaided, how many people would think I was writing a decent character?

Marneus Calgar's fluff hasn't changed for a long time.

But has he always been everybody's Wraithlord-punching spiritual liege?

Be fair. He "lost over half of Cadia" to the single largest incursion of Traitor Astartes since the Horus Heresy itself.

Absolutely true. My point was that he didn't write "CADIA RULES!" on Abaddon's underwear and use his fancy helmet to eat his cornflakes out of the next day, the way he would have if Ward had written him. He's a character clearly capable of losing, which Draigo is not. Daemon Primarch? No problem. Lost forever in the warp? Not only is it not a problem, the natives actually get out of his way, because he's that much of a badass.

Avatar of Khaine, actually.

Marneus Calgar at least struggled in the fight.

Since we are talking about Draigo, I want everyone to think about M'kar, The Daemonic Whipping boy of GW.


throughout 5th edition he has been: Killed 3 times by Ultramarines(two of those times were by Calgar's hand) ran back into the warp to escape Exterminatus from Sicarius, Killed three times by Grey Knights(twice by Draigo), and strangled to death by Mephiston. to top it off, all of thing happened between 799.m41 and 999.m41

So in the span of about 200 years, he was killed 7 times, twice by a dagger in the throat, once by strangulation, Was ripped Limb from limb, and 3 times by nameless methods, and was scared back into the warp from Exterminatus.


For this fellow, Life Sucks. A lot.

Ironically he's the only Daemon mentioned as giving Draigo anything vaguely resembling a good fight.

Granted, he was amped by a large Warp Rift at the time.

Seaward wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's really not. It simply says that he defeated Mortarion alone an unaided. And it's not even like he killed Mortarion. He simply defeated him. How, we do not know. The Grey Knights do know how to bind and disrupt Daemonic forces, so for all we know he could have said Abbrafreakingcadabra and held Mortarion still.
Why wouldn't it have worked for the Supreme Grandmaster? Who knows. Maybe Mortarion had to be weakened first. Maybe Mortarion's like a big, zombie freakin' Pokemon.

Let's be honest; if I wrote, in a DIY Index Astartes, that the Grand Master of the Space Cowboys defeated Magnus alone and unaided, how many people would think I was writing a decent character?

No, but that's mostly because you're talking about a DIY Index Astartes with "the Grand Master of the Space Cowboys" fighting a Primarch who has not come out of his self-enforced seclusion for quite awhile.

Marneus Calgar's fluff hasn't changed for a long time.

But has he always been everybody's Wraithlord-punching spiritual liege?

Yep. The "everyone wants to be Ultramarines" thing is overplayed and overcomplained about. Move on.

Be fair. He "lost over half of Cadia" to the single largest incursion of Traitor Astartes since the Horus Heresy itself.

Absolutely true. My point was that he didn't write "CADIA RULES!" on Abaddon's underwear and use his fancy helmet to eat his cornflakes out of the next day, the way he would have if Ward had written him. He's a character clearly capable of losing, which Draigo is not. Daemon Primarch? No problem. Lost forever in the warp? Not only is it not a problem, the natives actually get out of his way, because he's that much of a badass.

Point 1: Creed has done plenty of things that would be considered "over the top", and that was before Ward was even writing Codices.
Point 2: Draigo's entire current existence is a loss for Draigo. Seriously. Do you think a Grey Knight wants to be trapped in the Warp? It's like the jailer being tossed in with the inmates.
Point 3: Daemons avoid Grey Knights when they can, your point is moot.

Point 4: It takes Nurgle more effort to break wind than it does for him to magic up more twenty more Plaguebearers the instant Draigo smashes one.

Point 5: All Khorne would have to do, is let Draigo enter his periphrial vision, and Draigo would be a stain.

Point 6: Slaanesh just hasn't found him cute enough yet.

Point 7: Tzeentch planned this all along.

As much as Dragio is smashing and slashing around in the warp, he's really accomplishing a giant pile of nothing. It's the ultimate tar pit. Instead of being on the front lines, defending worlds and human lives from corruption and annihilation... he's in the warp, smashing Bloodletters together. Good thing Khorne has 10x666^6666666666 Bloodletters, and can magic up as many as he pleases, whenever he wants. Because he is a true, and omnipotent God. Like the other Chaos Gods.

I mean.. what is Draigo's plan? Smash enough insignificant Daemon faces for the Gods to notice him, so they can instantly annihilate him with their limitless power?

Draigo is a fool at best, and lunchmeat at worst.

He is certainly not superman, like everyone makes him out to be. As powerful as he is, he's completely powerless. He's his own double negative.

And what about sentence: "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory." witch virtuelly means: "If the Chaos Gods could not beat Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."?

I still think that Emperor is involved somehow. Keeping Draigo intentional into the Warp to troll Chaos Gods.

Brother Coa wrote:And what about sentence: "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory." witch virtuelly means: "If the Chaos Gods could not beat Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."?

I still think that Emperor is involved somehow. Keeping Draigo intentional into the Warp to troll Chaos Gods.

That's not what it means. It, for the hundredth fething time Coa, does not mean that the Chaos Gods themselves, that's Khorne itself, or the entity that is Tzeentch, has tried and failed to kill Dragio.

It does, Dark Gods = Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods = Nurgle, Khorne, Tzennech and Slaanesh. They can't kill him, and I am strongly believe that Emperor is involved in this somehow...

The Chaos god's have NEVER faced a mortal in person, nor would they ever (need to).

They would if he was walking around in the Warp.

And killing bunch of their minions, in Warp...

Brother Coa wrote:It does, Dark Gods = Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods = Nurgle, Khorne, Tzennech and Slaanesh. They can't kill him, and I am strongly believe that Emperor is involved in this somehow...

Trust me, I'm a doctor, my first language is English. It does not mean the Chaos Gods themselves have tried and failed to kill him. It means their servants have tried and failed, who are part of their God. Khorne could turn Draigo into a red smear with a flick of his finger, it's his Bloodletters and select Bloodthirsters that have tried and failed, not that their deaths mean anything as they're just re-born. Draigo is s a pawn of the Dark Gods, existing because his torments and battles against their servants amuses them.

By that logic every Bloodletter and Bloodthirsters is Dark God. And where does it say that Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods?

And you forgotten Keeper of Knowledge, City of Forbidenn Knowledge, the Chosen of Slaanesh, Nurgle's Garden....

Not by my logic. Your twisted fanboy hatred logic maybe, but not mine. "The Dark Gods" means their servants, not the entity that is "Khorne", the guy who sits on a brass throne. I also never said anything along the lines of "Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods'. You're making that up.
Mind adding some context for that last jumbled mess of a sentence?

Yes, Coa. Every deamon is a member of the Dark Gods. The Dark Gods refers to the "families" of the deamons in question.

You mean like Imperium's "Million of Wolds" meaning millions of worlds instead of 1 million?

And why not called them "servant's of the Dark Gods" but only Dark Gods?

Brother Coa wrote:You mean like Imperium's "Million of Wolds" meaning millions of worlds instead of 1 million?

And why not called them "servant's of the Dark Gods" but only Dark Gods?

No, not like that. No where does it say that the Imperium has "Millions of worlds". It's "A million", which means roughly one million, could be a bit more, a bit less, or on the dot.

Because their's no need. The Dark Gods, and Servants of the Dark Gods, mean the same thing.

You are tight, we already fight there....
And when I say Dark Gods I could be talking about Chaos Gods or 1 Bloodletter by that logic?

Brother Coa wrote:You are tight, we already fight there....
And when I say Dark Gods I could be talking about Chaos Gods or 1 Bloodletter by that logic?

No, when you say the Dark Gods, you refer to all the warp spawned things that live under your bed.

So Sasquatch is a Dark God then

Brother Coa wrote:You are tight, we already fight there....
And when I say Dark Gods I could be talking about Chaos Gods or 1 Bloodletter by that logic?

Yes. For example -

"The Dark Gods attacked the world of Yaddayadda Prime, a great Bloodthirster tears through the gates of Random City."

Obviously, by Dark Gods, it means the Bloodthirster. Like the Draigo passage, the "Dark Gods" means the servants.

I'm with Brother Coa on this one, dark gods =/= all daemons, that makes very little logic. The dark gods would be you know gods, a radical concept I know but bare with me.

Dark Gods are being used as a synonym of Chaos as a whole, in the same way that we say that Japan attacked the USA December 7th 1941. We don't say that pilot this and this attacked, we say that Japan did.

Yes but in Warhammer 40k there must be difference. It would be like saying: "The Emperor waged battle against Tyranids on Macragge and win it." or "C'Tan's conquer Damnos from the
Emperor." You can't give the same title to the most powerful and most weakest thing in one faction ( like Emperor = Emperor of Mankind and Emperor = Imperial Guardsman ). Then what would be difference between those 2? Every time someone say Emperor the other one would ask: what do you mean? Marine? Guardsman? Sister? Inquisition? Emperor? Primarch?...
Same as this, peopel ask me "Dark Gods" I ask: what do you mean: Bloodletter? Spawns? Damonettes? Bloodthrster? Great Unclean One?....
To me Dark Gods = Chaos Gods only. The rest are Grater Daemons, lesser Daemons, Chaos cultist, Chaos Servants and Chaos Space Marines. Not everybody can be Dark Gods...

Actually, that example makes perfect sense in the context of the argument. Although, whether you disagree due to your own preferences is irrelevant. It makes literary sense. The Dark Gods can refer to their servants, as its a faction and not just one entity.

Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

And the author does, in the passage. It means their servants.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

And the author does, in the passage. It means their servants.

And were does he mentioned that?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

And the author does, in the passage. It means their servants.

And were does he mentioned that?

In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

Obviously the Dark Gods, if they were ever inclined to, could kill Draigo. I doubt Tzeentch or Nurgle would really particularly care to kill Draigo, Khorne would if they ever met but as far as I know they haven't. Slaanesh has actually proven to be a vengeful god if it feels insulted, but I guess it's possible that Draigo killing its six chosen handmaidens isn't considered "insulting" enough.

Also, uh, "C'tan" and "Emperor" have in fact been used when referring to not just the conquests of the beings referred to, but their servants. It happens particularly often with the Emperor.

He is part of a Tzeentch plot.

iproxtaco wrote:[
In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

And this is why I am convinced that it is in fact the Emperor who keeps him trapped into the Warp and protects them against Chaos Gods only to make them see how much powerful he really is. It doesen't say anything about that, but it is logical to consider it since he is waking around the Warp for how many years non corrupted, with still enough faith in himself to burn Daemons and crush their cities. Even Primarchs was not so strong as he is.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:[
In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

And this is why I am convinced that it is in fact the Emperor who keeps him trapped into the Warp and protects them against Chaos Gods only to make them see how much powerful he really is. It doesen't say anything about that, but it is logical to consider it since he is waking around the Warp for how many years non corrupted, with still enough faith in himself to burn Daemons and crush their cities. Even Primarchs was not so strong as he is.

Mr. Dorn and Sangunius have requested a word with you.

Or Tzneetch is protecting him. Waiting for the right moment to unleash his unstoppable power on the other Chaos Gods. Cause the rest of the Chaos Gods fear the Draigo.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:[
In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

And this is why I am convinced that it is in fact the Emperor who keeps him trapped into the Warp and protects them against Chaos Gods only to make them see how much powerful he really is. It doesen't say anything about that, but it is logical to consider it since he is waking around the Warp for how many years non corrupted, with still enough faith in himself to burn Daemons and crush their cities. Even Primarchs was not so strong as he is.

You missed my point. You can derive conclusions from evidence taken from the text. What you believe is firstly, not backed up by the fluff you're drawing from, and two, is mostly your own conjecture. The actual meaning of the phrase is there in passage, it is not explicitly stated word for word in black and white, but it is there, you have to read and understand it as a whole rather than picking on select few pieces that don't make sense when taken out of context.

He beat a primarch in single combat. Of course he's the worst Mary Sue yet. His fluff's fanwank BS. Let's move on.

Draigo is a DAEMON Prince of the Emperor. Dun, dun DUN!

Seaward wrote:He beat a primarch in single combat. Of course he's the worst Mary Sue yet. His fluff's fanwank BS. Let's move on.

He beat a wounded Primarch in combat while enraged.

He's an eternal warrior with a 3++ save and a s10 weapon against Daemons.

Crunching the numbers for Draigo vs Angron (based on his IA statline)

Angron gets 6 attacks, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1 miss, wounding on 2+.

5.333 hits
4.444 wounds
Causes 1.49 unsaved wounds

Draigo gets 4 attacks, hitting on 4+ rerolling all misses, wounding on 2+.

3 hits
2.5 wounds
1.25 unsaved wounds

Draigo would ultimately lose by a small margin.

1) Primarchs are not as powerful as is popularly believed.
2) Grey Knights, especially Grandmasters excel at killing Daemons.
3) A Supreme Grandmaster + Draigo > Daemon Primarch.


I don't get where this obsession with Primarchs being infallible comes from. It's okay for loyalist Primarchs to suck, but as soon as one of most powerful individuals in the Imperium, ESPECIALLY AGAINST DAEMONS, goes out and beats a traitor Primarch there is a massive outcry that he's a Mary Sue?

So what is this, only Chaos gets powerful characters now?

Amaya wrote:1) Primarchs are not as powerful as is popularly believed.

How powerful are they then?

Void__Dragon wrote:

Amaya wrote:1) Primarchs are not as powerful as is popularly believed.

How powerful are they then?

Probably around where Mephiston and Angron's stats are. More powerful than all but a handful in the galaxy, but to say that there is no one out there who can beat them is asinine.

Amaya wrote:Probably around where Mephiston and Angron's stats are. More powerful than all but a handful in the galaxy, but to say that there is no one out there who can beat them is asinine.

Funny.

Because I recall Sanguinius breaking the back of the strongest Bloodthirster in the setting.

I also recall Corax and Angron taking Lascannon fire to the chest and being just cool.

Vulkan was shot with a weapon apparently powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud (One of the siege cannons Perturabo took from the Lion maybe?), and survived. Vulkan also can toss tanks around like children's toys.

Magnus could destroy Titans personally and tear apart the surface of Prospero with his power, but being the second strongest psyker in the setting he admittedly kind of cheats.

The Lion and Luther when they fought they allegedly shook the entire monastery of their Order, crumbling the masonry with the power of their blows. You could chalk that up to a mere legend, but Ferrus Manus did similar, allegedly when he fought the Emperor to test his father, they crumbled mountains. Magnus supports such a claim in A Thousand Sons, mentioning destroying the peaks of mountains casually at one point when training with his fellow Primarchs.

Are they the strongest beings in the setting? No.

But they were already on par with or greater than a Greater Daemon standard, as a Daemon Prince, they should be much more powerful.

Which is why a single mortal, even a Grey Knight, besting one is an incredible feat. I actually wouldn't have a problem if Draigo just did that... It's the fact that he somehow manages to make that feat look irrelevant with what he does later.

I'd have more to add, but Void Dragon did a bang-up job of pointing out why primarchs aren't basically just Mephiston. Fluff is replete with examples of primarchs being so far above and beyond "normal" Space Marines that it's a fairly ridiculous comparison.

When Garro met Dorn he like breathed on Garro and he went flying. Also Mortarion isn't a Primarch he's a deamon primarch. Basically, he's a super-primarch now.

The funny thing is, if Draigo's story was told without giving him a name or stats, people would love him and consider his tale a great tragedy, one of the mysteries of 40k.

Edited out of disgust for this thread...

It sounds like Kanluwen is being an adult and Void__Dragon being the baby putting words in people's mouth in this situation.

Kan and I don't see eye to eye all the time but if we are agreeing against you, you probably fethed up bad.

ph34r wrote:It sounds like Kanluwen is being an adult and Void__Dragon being the baby putting words in people's mouth in this situation.

Kan and I don't see eye to eye all the time but if we are agreeing against you, you probably fethed up bad.

Did you miss pages two and three?

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

Draigo had no help in smashing through Mortarion's bodyguards and using Mortarion's heart as a diary.

This was pointed out by Void Dragon, and Kan continued arguing that Draigo didn't accomplish Mortarion's defeat on his own a few more times, before dropping it and saying this to Void:

Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

ph34r wrote:The funny thing is, if Draigo's story was told without giving him a name or stats, people would love him and consider his tale a great tragedy, one of the mysteries of 40k.

Not really. As I said earlier in the thread, if Draigo were somebody's DIY chapter master, everyone would consider him among the most eye-rollingly bad fanwank ever to crop up. Giving him a name, stats, and the official GW stamp of approval doesn't magically make his fluff better. If anything, it makes it worse, as Ward's not a pimply thirteen year-old.

ph34r wrote:The funny thing is, if Draigo's story was told without giving him a name or stats, people would love him and consider his tale a great tragedy, one of the mysteries of 40k.

It's really not Draigo's stats or name that bothers some people. It's more about how his fluff is way over-the-top, more over-the-top than most things 40k for that matter.

Draigo is bad fluff. Had the Emperor had 20 Draigos rather than Primarchs during the Great Crusade, he could have just skipped into the Eye of Terror and given the Big 4 what for.

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

So what, you can't imagine someone busting through a bodyguard?

I agree with Kan that no matter what you people are going to have a fit about Draigo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

augustus5 wrote:Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

Hahahahahahahaha, if you think that you and Void are the victims here, you are fooling nobody.


I also like how you edited your post "out of disgust for this thread... " to remove your blatant bashing of Kanluwen. That probably makes you feel like people don't know what a baby you were acting like, right?

Asherian Command wrote:
Mr. Dorn and Sangunius have requested a word with you.

So they were in Warp for years?
And they didn't fall to Chaos, that's true. But half of their brothers are. While single Grey Knight never did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
You missed my point. You can derive conclusions from evidence taken from the text. What you believe is firstly, not backed up by the fluff you're drawing from, and two, is mostly your own conjecture. The actual meaning of the phrase is there in passage, it is not explicitly stated word for word in black and white, but it is there, you have to read and understand it as a whole rather than picking on select few pieces that don't make sense when taken out of context.

But again you cannot prove that it's the Chaos Gods that torture him because there is no words to describe that as well, same as my theory - it cannot be proven or disproven, just liek God.
If you want to believe in your theory, fine - I will believe in mine.

The fact's we know about him so far that are written are: He is insanely strong ( Fallen Primarch after all + his bodyguards ), He is insanely resistant to Warp ( Emperor's melding for sure ), He returns to Warp the second he helps his brothers defeat some Daemon in real world, He kills thousands of Daemons with ease, some are even avoiding him ( and he is in WARP )...
Either Emperor or Tzennetz are helping him ( just like O'Kais was helped by Khorne in Fire Warrior ), that's for sure.

ph34r wrote:So what, you can't imagine someone busting through a bodyguard?

I think it's the part that comes directly after busting through a bodyguard that people roll their eyes at.

augustus5 wrote:This was pointed out by Void Dragon, and Kan continued arguing that Draigo didn't accomplish Mortarion's defeat on his own a few more times, before dropping it and saying this to Void:

In fairness, we don't know the sort of damage Mortarion and his bodyguard may have suffered prior Draigo smashing through the bodyguard. For Draigo to appointed Grand Master on the battlefield, I would I suspect that the Grey Knights already had the advantage. For all we know, Mortarion had already been crippled and his bodyguard had taken heavy losses. We don't have enough information to say for certain.

Brother Coa wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Mr. Dorn and Sangunius have requested a word with you.

So they were in Warp for years?
And they didn't fall to Chaos, that's true. But half of their brothers are. While single Grey Knight never did.

There's kind of a difference between super super humans being misled by evil gods because their father in his 'infinite' wisdom didn't see fit to tell them that Chaos was more dangerous than anything else in the universe, and a group of super humans being brainwashed and trained specifically to combat those same dangers. Here's something: has a primarch ever been killed by an ork? No. Has a Grey Knight?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
You missed my point. You can derive conclusions from evidence taken from the text. What you believe is firstly, not backed up by the fluff you're drawing from, and two, is mostly your own conjecture. The actual meaning of the phrase is there in passage, it is not explicitly stated word for word in black and white, but it is there, you have to read and understand it as a whole rather than picking on select few pieces that don't make sense when taken out of context.

But again you cannot prove that it's the Chaos Gods that torture him because there is no words to describe that as well, same as my theory - it cannot be proven or disproven, just liek God.
If you want to believe in your theory, fine - I will believe in mine.

The fact's we know about him so far that are written are: He is insanely strong ( Fallen Primarch after all + his bodyguards ), He is insanely resistant to Warp ( Emperor's melding for sure ), He returns to Warp the second he helps his brothers defeat some Daemon in real world, He kills thousands of Daemons with ease, some are even avoiding him ( and he is in WARP )...
Either Emperor or Tzennetz are helping him ( just like O'Kais was helped by Khorne in Fire Warrior ), that's for sure.

Durza wrote:There's no evidence that the Emperor or Tzeentch is aiding him.

There is also no evidence to support otherwise, that he don't have help at all from the 3'rd side.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:
There's kind of a difference between super super humans being misled by evil gods because their father in his 'infinite' wisdom didn't see fit to tell them that Chaos was more dangerous than anything else in the universe, and a group of super humans being brainwashed and trained specifically to combat those same dangers. Here's something: has a primarch ever been killed by an ork? No. Has a Grey Knight?

I see your point, but still Primarchs were something close to the Emperor and they fell to corruption. Gray Knight may be incoruptible but they stil can't survive in the Warp for so long without protection, nothing can.
And when did you see Grey Knights fighting non-Daemon forces?

Durza wrote:
And by the way. Killing daemons... in the Warp. Why is it they don't instantly heal any wound they take?

The fact that Grey Knights are anathema to Daemons? The fact that their weaponry is more effective at killing Daemons than a sharpened silver cross, soaked in holy water, adorned with garlic, reflecting sunlight, is at killing a vampire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:
I see your point, but still Primarchs were something close to the Emperor and they fell to corruption. Gray Knight may be incoruptible but they stil can't survive in the Warp for so long without protection, nothing can.

Chaos can. Enslavers can. Orks can. The Eldar Gods can/could.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos can.

Because Chaos is Warp in some manner.

Enslavers can.

Enslavers are beings that live there, as many others are.

Orks can.

Never heard about the Ork surviving there for years.

The Eldar Gods can/could.

Eldar Gods are myth and nothing else.

Brother Coa wrote:
Never heard about the Ork surviving there for years.

There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

Brother Coa wrote:

Eldar Gods are myth and nothing else.

The Avatar would like to have a word with you, you know, being a part of Khaine and all that.

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

Just out of curiousity, which warboss is this?

Pilau Rice wrote:
There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

Cadia is 5 meters from the Eye of Terror, and she isn't at Warp. No living being from our reality can survive in Warp without some kind of protection. Not even Orks.

Brother Coa wrote:
The Avatar would like to have a word with you, you know, being a part of Khaine and all that.

Living Saint is basically the same thing. Avatar of Khaine is some sort of Eldar Daemon who harness the powers of the Warp, not Eldar "Gods".

ph34r wrote:

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

So what, you can't imagine someone busting through a bodyguard?

I agree with Kan that no matter what you people are going to have a fit about Draigo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

augustus5 wrote:Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

Hahahahahahahaha, if you think that you and Void are the victims here, you are fooling nobody.


I also like how you edited your post "out of disgust for this thread... " to remove your blatant bashing of Kanluwen. That probably makes you feel like people don't know what a baby you were acting like, right?

Since you failed to understand the point, I'll state it again. The argument was between Void and Kan over whether Draigo carved his name into Mortarion on his own or with help. Void posted the direct text that stated he did it without any aid, Kan ignored it and continued saying that he was aided, and then went on to basically say that Draigo nay-sayers are crybabies. I don't know how I'm a victim here since I wasn't even involved with the thread at that point.

I edited my post because the mods around here let certain members get away with bashing people in thread after thread, but then jump on anyone who takes the troll bait and bashes back at them.

augustus5 wrote:

ph34r wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

Hahahahahahahaha, if you think that you and Void are the victims here, you are fooling nobody.


I also like how you edited your post "out of disgust for this thread... " to remove your blatant bashing of Kanluwen. That probably makes you feel like people don't know what a baby you were acting like, right?

Since you failed to understand the point, I'll state it again. The argument was between Void and Kan over whether Draigo carved his name into Mortarion on his own or with help. Void posted the direct text that stated he did it without any aid, Kan ignored it and continued saying that he was aided, and then went on to basically say that Draigo nay-sayers are crybabies. I don't know how I'm a victim here since I wasn't even involved with the thread at that point.

I edited my post because the mods around here let certain members get away with bashing people in thread after thread, but then jump on anyone who takes the troll bait and bashes back at them.

I don't care about whatever argument you were having before, all I care about is that I agree that you people would while about Draigo no matter how reasonably his background was explained. Then, you proceed to go directly to flaming, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Then you try to redact your bashing to seem like you were not in fact being a big baby.

I have no idea how to explain my extreme hatred for the Grey Knights. I've tried several times to figure out how best to explain my thoughts but, I just can't seem to do it without (inadvertantly) offending GK players.
My problem with GK is that they were never meant to be an army in the first place. And I'm almost possitive that there are only 500 Grey Knights and they only wear Terminator Armour (I know that the fluff has since changed).
Their colour sceme was completely changed from being copys of the Deathwatch (with two silver arms) to a quick and easy color sceme to entice more children to want to collect them.
GK seem like a poor attemp from GW to get more money by re-hashing space marines yet again.

My general hatred revolves around:
The Dreadknight is... the stupidest thing I've ever seen created by GW (the female orc cheerleader is better).
Draigo... the stupidest thing I've ever read in any codex (you can blame Mat Ward but he's not the focus of my anger).
The army itself... the only army in 40k that has no reason to exist (unless there is a daemon player present).

Personally I haven't played a game since early 4th. My orks are slowly nearing completion and I have already made a vow to my circle of friends:
I will not participate in any gaming event that involves any number of GK armies or more than 3 "normal" marine armies.

They liked this idea and have already enforced it upon themselves.
Infact just recently my friend collected a new chaos army. He was excited to go to a RT event but when he arrived there was only 10 players and the armies were 6 GK armies and the rest where various space wolves and blood angels.
I'm not saying I'll throw a hissy-fit if I see GK. Nor am I saying I have a problem with GK players. I just don't believe they needed a codex. If anything they should only be allowed to face off against Daemons and Chaos Marines (IMO).

DeffDred wrote:I have no idea how to explain my extreme hatred for the Grey Knights. I've tried several times to figure out how best to explain my thoughts but, I just can't seem to do it without (inadvertantly) offending GK players.
My problem with GK is that they were never meant to be an army in the first place. And I'm almost possitive that there are only 500 Grey Knights and they only wear Terminator Armour (I know that the fluff has since changed).
Their colour sceme was completely changed from being copys of the Deathwatch (with two silver arms) to a quick and easy color sceme to entice more children to want to collect them.
GK seem like a poor attemp from GW to get more money by re-hashing space marines yet again.

My general hatred revolves around:
The Dreadknight is... the stupidest thing I've ever seen created by GW (the female orc cheerleader is better).
Draigo... the stupidest thing I've ever read in any codex (you can blame Mat Ward but he's not the focus of my anger).
The army itself... the only army in 40k that has no reason to exist (unless there is a daemon player present).

Personally I haven't played a game since early 4th. My orks are slowly nearing completion and I have already made a vow to my circle of friends:
I will not participate in any gaming event that involves any number of GK armies or more than 3 "normal" marine armies.

They liked this idea and have already enforced it upon themselves.
Infact just recently my friend collected a new chaos army. He was excited to go to a RT event but when he arrived there was only 10 players and the armies were 6 GK armies and the rest where various space wolves and blood angels.
I'm not saying I'll throw a hissy-fit if I see GK. Nor am I saying I have a problem with GK players. I just don't believe they needed a codex. If anything they should only be allowed to face off against Daemons and Chaos Marines (IMO).

You are pretty close to as wrong as possible, fairly consistently wrong across the board there.

There were never only 500 GK in terminator armor. Back in the day GK did only use terminator armor, though, this is true. However back in the day GK were silver. Back in the day GK were rumored to have more around the order of 3000-6000 marines, not 500, given the descriptions of Grand Masters being of equivalent power and commanding strength to Chapter Masters.

The index astartes article, which I also own, shows GK as having a weird black/silver armor scheme that is never seen again. So in total, your first paragraph of whining is 100% unfounded.

The dreadknight is pretty dumb. It was almost cool, but it isn't. I won't argue that one.
Draigo is in fact not dumb, but rather one of the better pieces of fluff from the whole GK book.
Space Marines should be extremely rare, but they aren't in game. Inquisition should not have been able to take to the field of battle on huge scales, but they can in game. Craftworld eldar should not fight so many inane battles as it does, but they do in game. Most 40k armies and battles don't make sense fluffwise vs gamewise, so it is no great stretch to include Grey Knights as playable.

As someone that has not played in a long time, you are even less qualified to gripe about 40k gameplay problems.
Your "vow" is complete lunacy and frankly more than a bit antisocial.

You can't control what other people like. You say at one time that you won't throw a fit about GK, but here you are, throwing a fit, and saying that GK players should not even be allowed to play the game at all against non-chaos.

Viersche wrote:Just out of curiousity, which warboss is this?

Tuska Daemon-Killa. Went on a Waaagh! against the Eye of Terror. He at first succeeded on some worlds, but as his Waaagh! dwindled he ended up on a Daemon-world, fought a Daemon Prince, reached up between its legs and "made a gesture of his own"before he was killed. Everyday, he and his Boyz are resurrected to fight again, finding what amounts to an Ork utopia.

But I wan't throwing a fit. I clearly stated that I was unable to explain myslef correctly. I also used terms like "almost possitive" and "IMO". I didn't mean to offend but clearly I ruffled your feathers. Sorry.
And as far as your Lunacy comment. That was kinda rude. I'm entitled to my ideals and you yours.

Guess what I did??

I didn't buy it and I haven't read it.


HOORAY I WIN!

Viersche wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

Just out of curiousity, which warboss is this?

Tuska, pg. 26 of the Ork Codex... he also snipped off a Daemon Prince's balls or so it is implied.

Brother Coa wrote:
Living Saint is basically the same thing. Avatar of Khaine is some sort of Eldar Daemon who harness the powers of the Warp, not Eldar "Gods".

So... you pretty much make up your own fluff and ignore the parts that don't fit. Got it.

An Avatar is an Eldar Daemon. It even used to have the "Daemon" rule.

Amaya wrote:*Interesting ideas & stats*

Too bad such views are incredibly unpopular, I quite enjoyed the read. Considering that it was GW that produced the rules (as well as similar one's for other Primarchs in other 'one-off' campaigns) it's kinda funny when fans read them and then can't handle the end product because it doesn't match up to the OTT machismo of the BL books. Seems like most fans wouldn't be happy unless Primarchs were C'Tan slayers on TT...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So... you pretty much make up your own fluff and ignore the parts that don't fit. Got it.

No....he is Daemon, just see his stats.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:An Avatar is an Eldar Daemon. It even used to have the "Daemon" rule.

It still has. Doesn't make Khaine a non-God.

The Laughing God also said hi.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It still has. Doesn't make Khaine a non-God.

The Laughing God also said hi.

They are just a myth, in fact: they are much Gods as the Emperor is to Humanity.
Everybody think about him as a divine being, while he's not - he is the most powerful Human psyker in existence but far from real god.
Eldar gods to, they are just myths. Just like Mohammed, or Buda or Christan God... at least Emperor has flesh and blood ( somewhat ).

Brother Coa wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It still has. Doesn't make Khaine a non-God.

The Laughing God also said hi.

They are just a myth, in fact: they are much Gods as the Emperor is to Humanity.
Everybody think about him as a divine being, while he's not - he is the most powerful Human psyker in existence but far from real god.
Eldar gods to, they are just myths. Just like Mohammed, or Buda or Christan God... at least Emperor has flesh and blood ( somewhat ).

There's a piece of fluff in the Eldar Codex that states that the souls of Harlequins join the Laughing God when they die. It doesn't say that they think they do, it says they do. Thus, the Laughing God exists.

As for the point of stuff surviving in the warp: you said nothing could, we proved you wrong. Then there's Lysander, the Legion of the Damned etc.

DeffDred wrote:But I wan't throwing a fit. I clearly stated that I was unable to explain myslef correctly. I also used terms like "almost possitive" and "IMO". I didn't mean to offend but clearly I ruffled your feathers. Sorry.
And as far as your Lunacy comment. That was kinda rude. I'm entitled to my ideals and you yours.

Sorry then. I will still contend that a fair bit of your issue with GK comes from misinterpretation of old fluff/fluff changes/assumed GW money grubbing.

I also maintain that it is totally ridiculous to "boycott" playing GK, and to think that GK players shouldn't be allowed to play vs all armies like everyone else.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's a piece of fluff in the Eldar Codex that states that the souls of Harlequins join the Laughing God when they die. It doesn't say that they think they do, it says they do. Thus, the Laughing God exists.

And Imperial codexes say that Emperor is a God that protect all Mankind from the Chaos Gods and that he will return one day and kick their buts...
And lot of people don't believe that...
And we all know what happened to every Eldar soul out there

As for the point of stuff surviving in the warp: you said nothing could, we proved you wrong. Then there's Lysander, the Legion of the Damned etc.

Lysandaer was there for 6 months and he was kept alive by Chaos Marines.
Fire Hawks were only in the Warp for several hours probably, and they all begun to mutate with all of their ordinary Human crew dead.
And Draigo is in Warp for how long?

And Draigo is a Grey Knight, get that into your head. He's not your average joe, or even your average Space Marine, he's different even to the Primarchs. He's a Grey Knight, utterly incorruptible, that's how he survives.
The Avatars of Khaine are splinters of the deity Khaine that were thrown out of the Warp by Khorne. Since they fought during the War in Heaven, and interacted with portal members of the Eldar. Admit it, they're real, and you have nothing to prove otherwise.

Just you have nothing to prove Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods. Or that they torture Draigo, except your speculations and misunderstanding of basic words.
And my point was Primarch>>>Grey Knight and they fallen. My other point was Fire Hawks were several hours in the Warp and half of them mutated while all their Human crew die due t o Warp exposure. Adn Drago is in the Warp for how many years?
He must have help fro m3'rd side, it is impossible to survive alone in the Warp for so long...

Listen up, Coa, I'm going to say this once.

HE'S A GREY KNIGHT. Fire Hawks were Marines, and had no protection from the Warp. Draigo, OTOH has sigils and wards so far up his ass he can taste the paper and metal, OK?

It's like saying people in Hazmat suits will catch the plague because a Baby and a 80 year old woman did.

Brother Coa wrote:Just you have nothing to prove Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods. Or that they torture Draigo, except your speculations and misunderstanding of basic words.

Lolwut? I'm not trying to prove that, I was simply trying to make you understand that 'Dark Gods' can refer to the servants of the Gods, which has been discussed already. I also never said they torture Draigo, you're making more gak up. I said they find his exploits amusing due to their insignificance.

And my point was Primarch>>>Grey Knight and they fallen. My other point was Fire Hawks were several hours in the Warp and half of them mutated while all their Human crew die due t o Warp exposure. Adn Drago is in the Warp for how many years?
He must have help fro m3'rd side, it is impossible to survive alone in the Warp for so long...

In this situation a Primarch is woefully inferior to a Grey Knight. As Chowderhead has gracefully described, they're wrapped in anti-Chaos wards and sigils and psycho indoctrination to the point where they cannot be corrupted. That's the massive difference between them and the Primarchs. The latter are not the best of humanity, just humanity exemplified, and they came with all the flaws of your average man, hence why some were corrupted. The Fire Hawks were only Marines, without any of the Grey Knight's advantages, so were easily exposed to the mutating powers of Chaos.

Amaya wrote:To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.


There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

The difference being the Marbo hunts lictors, and Kaldor Draigo hunts DAEMON PRIMARCHS WHILE IN THE WARP.

Chowderhead wrote:Listen up, Coa, I'm going to say this once.

HE'S A GREY KNIGHT. Fire Hawks were Marines, and had no protection from the Warp. Draigo, OTOH has sigils and wards so far up his ass he can taste the paper and metal, OK?

It's like saying people in Hazmat suits will catch the plague because a Baby and a 80 year old woman did.

So that practically means that they can assault Eye of Terror and battle for thousand of years and none of them will mutate or be corrupted?

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:There's no evidence that the Emperor or Tzeentch is aiding him.

There is also no evidence to support otherwise, that he don't have help at all from the 3'rd side.

So because GW hasn't said that he doesn't have help from another source, you claim that it means he must. Very well, I say the Emperor was actually Khorne in disguise. Find some fluff that says otherwise.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:
There's kind of a difference between super super humans being misled by evil gods because their father in his 'infinite' wisdom didn't see fit to tell them that Chaos was more dangerous than anything else in the universe, and a group of super humans being brainwashed and trained specifically to combat those same dangers. Here's something: has a primarch ever been killed by an ork? No. Has a Grey Knight?

I see your point, but still Primarchs were something close to the Emperor and they fell to corruption. Gray Knight may be incoruptible but they stil can't survive in the Warp for so long without protection, nothing can.
And when did you see Grey Knights fighting non-Daemon forces?

Three days ago, at a friends house.

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Listen up, Coa, I'm going to say this once.

HE'S A GREY KNIGHT. Fire Hawks were Marines, and had no protection from the Warp. Draigo, OTOH has sigils and wards so far up his ass he can taste the paper and metal, OK?

It's like saying people in Hazmat suits will catch the plague because a Baby and a 80 year old woman did.

So that practically means that they can assault Eye of Terror and battle for thousand of years and none of them will mutate or be corrupted?

Pretty much. Still doesn't stop them being stabbed by a Bloodletter or set on fire by a Lord of Change.

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Listen up, Coa, I'm going to say this once.

HE'S A GREY KNIGHT. Fire Hawks were Marines, and had no protection from the Warp. Draigo, OTOH has sigils and wards so far up his ass he can taste the paper and metal, OK?

It's like saying people in Hazmat suits will catch the plague because a Baby and a 80 year old woman did.

So that practically means that they can assault Eye of Terror and battle for thousand of years and none of them will mutate or be corrupted?

So you have claimed. Several times.

And I am finish with ipotaxo, a suborn men is a suborn men. He now even contradicts what he said...

I will just say that Draigo is a troll, he never lose a battle, nor he will. He is incredibly over powered Mary Sue and that's it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Amaya wrote:To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.


There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

The difference being the Marbo hunts lictors, and Kaldor Draigo hunts DAEMON PRIMARCHS WHILE IN THE WARP.

And MArbo is a mere mortal guardsmen whilst Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the most powerful and elite chapter of Astartes specifically to hunt that kind of prey.

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Listen up, Coa, I'm going to say this once.

HE'S A GREY KNIGHT. Fire Hawks were Marines, and had no protection from the Warp. Draigo, OTOH has sigils and wards so far up his ass he can taste the paper and metal, OK?

It's like saying people in Hazmat suits will catch the plague because a Baby and a 80 year old woman did.

So that practically means that they can assault Eye of Terror and battle for thousand of years and none of them will mutate or be corrupted?

Yes it does.

Durza wrote:

So that practically means that they can assault Eye of Terror and battle for thousand of years and none of them will mutate or be corrupted?

So you have claimed. Several times.

Adn where does it say that Grey Knight flesh can't mutate in Warp?
Bloodtide begs differ, and Draigo don't have innocent Sisters to slaughter in the Warp to protect himself

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Amaya wrote:To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.


There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

The difference being the Marbo hunts lictors, and Kaldor Draigo hunts DAEMON PRIMARCHS WHILE IN THE WARP.

And MArbo is a mere mortal guardsmen whilst Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the most powerful and elite chapter of Astartes specifically to hunt that kind of prey.

...A primarch. A PRIMARCH. A DAEMON PRIMARCH.

AND Marbo uses guerrila tactics, whereas draigo just trolled a DAEMON PRIMARCH for lulz.

Brother Coa wrote:And I am finish with ipotaxo, a suborn men is a suborn men. He now even contradicts what he said...

I will just say that Draigo is a troll, he never lose a battle, nor he will. He is incredibly over powered Mary Sue and that's it.

I accept your gracious concession of all points. At least you know when you literally cant back up any of your ludicrous thoughts. Seriously, next time, do some reading, take some time to look over the other person's argument, and don't just make stuff up and drag stuff on for a few pages.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

So that practically means that they can assault Eye of Terror and battle for thousand of years and none of them will mutate or be corrupted?

So you have claimed. Several times.

Adn where does it say that Grey Knight flesh can't mutate in Warp?
Bloodtide begs differ, and Draigo don't have innocent Sisters to slaughter in the Warp to protect himself

Those Grey Knights don't happen do be King Grey Knight Draigo, do they?

He's more powerful and has a better resistance to Deamonic Touches.

Comparing Draigo to a Grey Knight is like Comparing a Warboss to a Grot.

Dark Gods = Chaos Gods and that 's it.
Then to me Emperor = Guardsman.
And I can back up, but you won't listen and always get back to the beginning , never mind I explained everything.
You are a troll... ( seriously liek talking to the wall )

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Amaya wrote:To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.


There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

The difference being the Marbo hunts lictors, and Kaldor Draigo hunts DAEMON PRIMARCHS WHILE IN THE WARP.

And MArbo is a mere mortal guardsmen whilst Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the most powerful and elite chapter of Astartes specifically to hunt that kind of prey.

...A primarch. A PRIMARCH. A DAEMON PRIMARCH.

AND Marbo uses guerrila tactics, whereas draigo just trolled a DAEMON PRIMARCH for lulz.

Yes I know. The Imperium's most powerful Daemon hunter fighting a notably weak Daemon Prince.

Chowderhead wrote:
He's more powerful and has a better resistance to Deamonic Touches.

Comparing Draigo to a Grey Knight is like Comparing a Warboss to a Grot.

So he is some kind of special character? He can survive in the Warp while all others would die?
Then it must be true when Chaos Gods can't even kill him...

Brother Coa wrote:Dark Gods = Chaos Gods and that 's it.
Then to me Emperor = Guardsman.

Yep. Although I find your complete inability to understand this hilarious. It's like trying to teach a Pig to do Trigonometry.

And I can back up, but you won't listen and always get back to the beginning , never mind I explained everything.
You are a troll... ( seriously liek talking to the wall )

No, you can't. At all. You have literally nothing to back your claims, hence why you're conceding the argument. I wouldn't accuse anyone of being a Troll if I were you.

They might kill him if they didn't have better things to do.

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
He's more powerful and has a better resistance to Deamonic Touches.

Comparing Draigo to a Grey Knight is like Comparing a Warboss to a Grot.

So he is some kind of special character? He can survive in the Warp while all others would die?
Then it must be true when Chaos Gods can't even kill him...

He's the Supreme Grand Master of the most powerful and elite fighting force the Imperium can field. He is literally the most skilled member of the Astartes and mankind's best Daemonhunter. So yes, he's a fething Special Character.

It isn't actually stated whether the Chaos Gods are even bothered trying to kill him. He's one man, if insanely powerful, but whatever he does doesn't compare to the massive wars the gods constantly wage.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
He's more powerful and has a better resistance to Deamonic Touches.

Comparing Draigo to a Grey Knight is like Comparing a Warboss to a Grot.

So he is some kind of special character? He can survive in the Warp while all others would die?
Then it must be true when Chaos Gods can't even kill him...

He's the Supreme Grand Master of the most powerful and elite fighting force the Imperium can field. He is literally the most skilled member of the Astartes and mankind's best Daemonhunter. So yes, he's a fething Special Character.

Aside from Primarchs and the Big E, I would say Draigo is up there as one of the most powerful Imperials in the Galaxy currently.

So yes, as iproxtaco stated, he's a Special Character. And if you took time to read the damned book, you would realize it said so in his rules.

iproxtaco wrote:
No, you can't. At all. You have literally nothing to back your claims.

Nor do you Mr. TROLOLOLOLOLOLO my thinking is better than anyone esle TROLOLOLOLOLOLO.....
I am finished now...

Durza wrote:It isn't actually stated whether the Chaos Gods are even bothered trying to kill him. He's one man, if insanely powerful, but whatever he does doesn't compare to the massive wars the gods constantly wage.

Yes. He's a pest, everything he does just gets reset in a few days, and he's barley noticed. Sure, some people may have a vendetta against him, but the Dark Gods have bigger fish (Or Thrones) to fry.


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Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No, you can't. At all. You have literally nothing to back your claims.

Nor do you Mr. TROLOLOLOLOLOLO my thinking is better than anyone esle TROLOLOLOLOLOLO.....
I am finished now...

Well, no. You see, he has multiple people backing up his sources and claims. That counts as being backed up, in my book.

Chowderhead wrote:
So yes, as iproxtaco stated, he's a Special Character. And if you took time to read the damned book, you would realize it said so in his rules.

So he is really a Mary Sue? Thanks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
Well, no. You see, he has multiple people backing up his sources and claims. That counts as being backed up, in my book.

Ok, prove to me that Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods.
And that Chaos Gods are in fact keeping Draigo trapped just to have fun with him.

You are talking about that all this thread yet I didn't read that anywhere beside your posts...

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
So yes, as iproxtaco stated, he's a Special Character. And if you took time to read the damned book, you would realize it said so in his rules.

So he is really a Mary Sue? Thanks...

Hmm, does that mean that every special character in 40k is Mary Sue? Is the Deciever Mary Sue? How about the Nightbringer? Is Mad Dok Grotsnik Mary Sue?

Think before you type. It may end in you being called a Troll less.


And I'm not answering the second part of your question, because we have answered that already.

Also, Durza, Amya, ph34r, and others. Just because they didn't say that iproxtaco was right directly, it doesn't mean their posting didn't back his statements up.

Where's this Dark Gods-Chaos Gods thing coming from? Dark Gods refers to any powerful Warp entity, while Chaos Gods refers to the Big Four.

If the gods were keeping Draigo trapped, why would they let him out for battles in which he aids the Knights massively instead of just keeping him there?

Durza wrote:Where's this Dark Gods-Chaos Gods thing coming from? Dark Gods refers to any powerful Warp entity, while Chaos Gods refers to the Big Four.

If the gods were keeping Draigo trapped, why would they let him out for battles in which he aids the Knights massively instead of just keeping him there?

Thank you so much.

But seriously, the first mention of it I saw was like a page ago where Coa acted like it was a massive argument.

Chowderhead wrote:
Hmm, does that mean that every special character in 40k is Mary Sue? Is the Deciever Mary Sue? How about the Nightbringer? Is Mad Dok Grotsnik Mary Sue?

Think before you type. It may end in you being called a Troll less.

Deciever is a NEcron God, Nightbringer is a Necron God to ( both of them are eating stars for breakfast ), Mad Dok Grotsnik didn't punch Mortarion in the fact and then carve the name of his Master in his heart ( before that he kileld his bodyguards in split of a second ), did I mentioned Mortarion is a fallen Primarch?

And I'm not answering the second part of your question, because we have answered that already.

You said Dark Gods = Bloodletter. I don't believe you, find me a text in codex, rulebook, BL books that say that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Where's this Dark Gods-Chaos Gods thing coming from? Dark Gods refers to any powerful Warp entity, while Chaos Gods refers to the Big Four.

Where does that say? Witch codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:
If the gods were keeping Draigo trapped, why would they let him out for battles in which he aids the Knights massively instead of just keeping him there?

Because it isn't they who are holding him, they are trying to kill him for all this time without success. They didn't go themselves but they send their most powerful servants who Draigo killed with a eye look. He don't bother them now but in time he will...and then we will see...( but he will defeat them becaue Matt Ward already told us that in the end of the story ).

Mad Dok Grotsnik is a SC, and he's not Mary Sue. So, you are wrong.

Strike One.

Two, In Malleus They refer to deamons as "The Dark Gods"

Strike 2 and 3.


Done, Coa. You are wrong on all fronts. Face it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm pretty sure it was stated more than 3 times, but any one of the Gods could turn Draigo in a red smear in less time than a cell makes ATP.

iproxtaco wrote:
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the most powerful and elite fighting force the Imperium can field.

*cough*custodesandtitansandassassins*cough*

And your post a few back, Mortarion is NOTABLY WEAK? With his Nurgle-y goodness he'd probably be the hardest to kill.

But other than that I agree with you on certain parts of your argument.

Also though, can't the CG control the daemonic equivalent of physics in the warp? Wouldn't that mean they could just gravity-squish him?

And FINALLY, I would argue that KD is NOT the greatest daemon killer in the IoM, and that THAT title would go to Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:Mad Dok Grotsnik is a SC, and he's not Mary Sue. So, you are wrong.

Strike One.

Two, In Malleus They refer to deamons as "The Dark Gods"

Strike 2 and 3.


Done, Coa. You are wrong on all fronts. Face it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm pretty sure it was stated more than 3 times, but any one of the Gods could turn Draigo in a red smear in less time than a cell makes ATP.

Agreed.

Chowderhead wrote:Mad Dok Grotsnik is a SC, and he's not Mary Sue. So, you are wrong.

I didn't say he is Marry Sue, I just said he didn't done anything to even reach Mary Sue level.

Strike one.

Two, In Malleus They refer to deamons as "The Dark Gods"

Just in BL novel? And we all know how reliable they are, just like C.S.Goto and that CC one were SoB fall to Chaos in Hundreds... I am sorry, without codex - nothing ( actually Chaos Gods are refereed as Dark Gods in CSM codex ).

Strike 2 and 3.

Done, Coa. You are wrong on all fronts. Face it.

No, I am right and you are wrong. Unless you can find somethign more valid or start to even read what I was talking you may be writhe once on a while...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
*cough*custodesandtitansandassassins*cough*

And your post a few back, Mortarion is NOTABLY WEAK? With his Nurgle-y goodness he'd probably be the hardest to kill.

But other than that I agree with you on certain parts of your argument.

Also though, can't the CG control the daemonic equivalent of physics in the warp? Wouldn't that mean they could just gravity-squish him?

And FINALLY, I would argue that KD is NOT the greatest daemon killer in the IoM, and that THAT title would go to Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex.

See, even the Tau fan know that...

Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Also, Rex banished a GD? So what. In Battles of the Space Marines, or whatever it's called, a Captain banishes a GD. It's not as big of a deal as you think it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, do you consider the Book that created Vox, the Data Slate, and laid the groundwork for Inquisitor (Written by Dan Abnett) to be gak fluff?

GW has said that BL is canon. If it isn't, it's a "Heretical Tome" and is either edited or marked as such.

And you did say:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
So yes, as iproxtaco stated, he's a Special Character. And if you took time to read the damned book, you would realize it said so in his rules.

Which means that SC's are Mary Sue.

So he is really a Mary Sue? Thanks...

Meaning that all SC's are Mary Sue.

Chowderhead wrote:Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Custodes face palmed Primarchs, they are more stronger and more elite then regular Marines, even Grey Knights.
Titans can vaporize entire cities, and they are basically and AI merged with Princeps so they are in some kind - a person.
Assassins not compared to Draigo? What about the one who killed 2 HLoT and then strike force of how many hundred marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
GW has said that BL is canon.

C.S.Goto si cannon? Oh what joy...let me grab my MultiLaser then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
Meaning that all SC's are Mary Sue.

Most of them are, just not gods...and some minor SC.
Lysander is Mary Sue, Mephisto is, Calgar is...

1. Titans aren't people.
2. Draigo has done stuff that an Assassin could only dream of. And I would like a link to where this Assassin, only using a sword and pyschic powers, killed a Marine and HLoTs.

Custodes now are wearing and I quote:

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

And they haven't gone to battle sine before Draigo became a sperm. So, no, Custodes don't count.


You are using null and void points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, C.S. Goto's works are Heretical Tomes. So that's another invalid point.

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:There's no evidence that the Emperor or Tzeentch is aiding him.

There is also no evidence to support otherwise, that he don't have help at all from the 3'rd side.

So because GW hasn't said that he doesn't have help from another source, you claim that it means he must. Very well, I say the Emperor was actually Khorne in disguise. Find some fluff that says otherwise.

Khorne doesn't do Disguise, everyone knows that. The Emperor is really Tzeentch in disguise.


And Draigo isn't a Mary Sue. He is a man.

The Proper term is Gary Stu, Larry Stu, or even Marty Stu.


Anyways, I took a Mary Sue test on Draigo, so we could once and for all know whether or not he is:

Got a 35, which is JUST one point below Mary Sue.

Draigo is not a Mary sue. /thread

Chowderhead wrote:Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Also, Rex banished a GD? So what. In Battles of the Space Marines, or whatever it's called, a Captain banishes a GD. It's not as big of a deal as you think it is.

Ceremonial leather armour, their combat armour was superior to power armour, and 1-v-1 would clusterfeth a GK.

While I admit GK ARE better at Daemon hunting, so what? Custodes are good against everything.

And I am comparing a Custode to a GK, not a run of the mill custode to Kaldor Draigo.

Titans have sentient machine spirits, and a dozen of them can pacify a world.

And an imperial assassin is individually superior to a GK. Not to Kaldor Draigo (though an assassin could down him farily easily-exposed face=vindicare target practice.) they would have died going through what he went through.

I was refuting the part where it was said that GK were the most elite individuals in the IoM.

Chowderhead wrote:1. Titans aren't people. AI count as people + driver count as people
2. Draigo has done stuff that an Assassin could only dream of. And I would like a link to where this Assassin, only using a sword and pyschic powers, killed a Marine and HLoTs. "The first Grand Master was Malcador the Sigillite, regent of Terra.1 In 546.M32, the position was held by Drakan Vangorich who was responsible for the events of The Beheading where he assassinated all the members of the High Lords of Terra after which he escaped to an Assassinorum temple in hiding. A retribution force of Space Marines was dispatched who battled numerous assassins with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master." He killed them all in the end, not just 2. What a badass...

Custodes now are wearing and I quote:

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

And they haven't gone to battle sine before Draigo became a sperm. So, no, Custodes don't count. [color=darkred] The can still kick butt since they are superior to Marine in every way. Just because they didn't go in battle for 10.000 years doesn't mean that grot will kill them in battle [color=darkred]

You are using null and void points.

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Custodes face palmed Primarchs, they are more stronger and more elite then regular Marines, even Grey Knights.

Custodes face palmed Primarchs? What in God's name are you talking about. They are not more elite than Grey Knights until you can prove otherwise.

Titans can vaporize entire cities, and they are basically and AI merged with Princeps so they are in some kind - a person.

A Titan is a machine, not a human, and the pilot is certainly not more powerful than a Grey Knight.

Assassins not compared to Draigo? What about the one who killed 2 HLoT and then strike force of how many hundred marines?

Elaborate. Talos, a single Asartes takes an Assassin apart by himself in Soul Hunter.

Ok, gotcha Random. I disagree, but that's not the topic at hand. We're talking about Draigo, and I would like to thank you for agreeing with me.

Also, Sentience has been banned in the Imperium. It's a limited AI. Like a NPC in a video game.

im2randomghgh wrote:
While I admit GK ARE better at Daemon hunting, so what? Custodes are good against everything.

And I am comparing a Custode to a GK, not a run of the mill custode to Kaldor Draigo.

Titans have sentient machine spirits, and a dozen of them can pacify a world.

And an imperial assassin is individually superior to a GK. Not to Kaldor Draigo (though an assassin could down him farily easily-exposed face=vindicare target practice.) they would have died going through what he went through.

All true....

Coa, that was in M.32. This is M.41.

Also, there were "numerous' Assassins. More than one. And they all died, without killing all the Space Marines, like you said they did. You're being hypocritical now. I would stop.

iproxtaco wrote:They are not more elite than Grey Knights until you can prove otherwise.

There was an entire thread about that. And all agree that Custodes are supriour i nevery way. You were there to I believe...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:Coa, that was in M.32. This is M.41.

So, he did kill all HLoT.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
Also, there were "numerous' Assassins. More than one. And they all died, without killing all the Space Marines, like you said they did. You're being hypocritical now. I would stop.

Only 1 survived

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They are not more elite than Grey Knights until you can prove otherwise.

There was an entire thread about that. And all agree that Custodes are supriour i nevery way. You were there to I believe...

Draigo > Grey Knights.

We're arguing about Draigo. Stop trying to derail it just because you have been beaten.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HLoT are old men, Coa. And it never said "One Survived". It said, and I quote: "...with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master"

This means that one Astartes killed them all. Not an assassin, an Astartes. It never says that they all died, either. Learn English, it will hep you in the future.

Draigo IS Grey Knight.
And he is Mary Sue.

/thread

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
While I admit GK ARE better at Daemon hunting, so what? Custodes are good against everything.

And I am comparing a Custode to a GK, not a run of the mill custode to Kaldor Draigo.

Titans have sentient machine spirits, and a dozen of them can pacify a world.

And an imperial assassin is individually superior to a GK. Not to Kaldor Draigo (though an assassin could down him farily easily-exposed face=vindicare target practice.) they would have died going through what he went through.

All true....

Grey Knights are good against everything and are a more effective fighting force. The Space Marines in general make better soldiers, it's only on an individual sparring match basis that things sway in the Custode's favour.

Brother Coa wrote:Draigo IS Grey Knight.
And he is Mary Sue.

/thread

Draigo is the best Grey Knight. He's not "Another Grey Knight", like you are suggesting.

Also, thanks for another biased and un-founded claim.

Chowderhead wrote:
HLoT are old men, Coa. And it never said "One Survived". It said, and I quote: "...with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master"

This means that one Astartes killed them all. It never says that they all died. Learn English, it will hep you in the future.

Are you an idiot?

"A retribution force of Space Marines..." Space Marines, not Space Marine. "...with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master" only 1 was able to survive that and to kill him. "Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign." - 5'th edition rulebook.

You were wrong, again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
Also, thanks for another biased and un-founded claim.

Prove to me that he is not a Mary Sue.
That part is at least proved in the fluff...

Yes. A single Astartes warrior killed the HLoT. That does not imply that everyone else died.

And just because a single Astartes warrior survived a Whole Campaign doesn't mean that they were all killed in one fell swoop.

Chowderhead wrote:Yes. A single Astartes warrior killed the HLoT. That does not imply that everyone else died.

And just because a single Astartes warrior survived a Whole Campaign doesn't mean that they were all killed in one fell swoop.

Now you are making things up. Stop posting things you can't prove.

You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Yes. A single Astartes warrior killed the HLoT. That does not imply that everyone else died.

And just because a single Astartes warrior survived a Whole Campaign doesn't mean that they were all killed in one fell swoop.

Now you are making things up. Stop posting things you can't prove.

Really? Because I can't prove that. But neither can you. And my claim is more founded, seeing as how I have a little thing called the English Language at my side.

Chowderhead wrote:You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.

"As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return."

Not at all....

"While he Lives" implies that he has to be alive. And if he does something to attract the attention of one the big 4, he's dead.

And so he's strong in mind and body. So what? So is Grotsnik. Is he Mary Sue?

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.

"As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return."

Not at all....

http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue2.html


Put Draigo's Info in there, see what the Total is.

But "he will prevail and one day, he will return." witch meants that he will return one day and that he will be voctorious at the end. That is not tragic - that is happy ending.

And for the last time: Grotsnik didn't carve the name of his former master in a heart of FALLEN PRIMARCH that turned into DAEMON PRINCE ( of course after tearing his guard into shreds in few seconds then pouncing him in the head ).

I would just like to point out that Valdor looks really cool, more so than any other IoM characters I have seen yet, though it doesn't matter I suppose...



AND their rhinos were cooler



It's all about how pimpin' you look, amiright?

Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

To be honest I don't have a problem with a lot of they Grey Knight fluff. I mainly have 2 issues. First one being how the Grey Knights mind-wipe everyone. It's inconsistent with other fluff, but most importantly, why are they brain washing Space Marines. At one point, the Blood Angels team up with Grey Knights, and Dante agrees to have everyone mind wiped about it. I can understand doing that to guardsman and the regular populace, but I don't have any understanding of why they would want to do that to a Space Marine.

And the other issue I have, is where he carves the name into the Deamon Prince Mortarions heart. That is just silly. A Space Marine that was only about a 100 years old, managed to carve a name into the heart into Deamon Primarch.

BSent wrote:To be honest I don't have a problem with a lot of they Grey Knight fluff. I mainly have 2 issues. First one being how the Grey Knights mind-wipe everyone. It's inconsistent with other fluff, but most importantly, why are they brain washing Space Marines. At one point, the Blood Angels team up with Grey Knights, and Dante agrees to have everyone mind wiped about it. I can understand doing that to guardsman and the regular populace, but I don't have any understanding of why they would want to do that to a Space Marine.

To Grey Knight it's all the same. They would kill them but Space Marines are to hard to produce so they wipe them instead.

And the other issue I have, is where he carves the name into the Deamon Prince Mortarions heart. That is just silly. A Space Marine that was only about a 100 years old, managed to carve a name into the heart into Deamon Primarch.

*cough* Mary Sue *cough *

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

Teleporters.
/discussion.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

Teleporters.
/discussion.

So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

Teleporters.
/discussion.

You get up to your ships, you will find them smoldering husks.

BSent wrote:To be honest I don't have a problem with a lot of they Grey Knight fluff. I mainly have 2 issues. First one being how the Grey Knights mind-wipe everyone. It's inconsistent with other fluff, but most importantly, why are they brain washing Space Marines. At one point, the Blood Angels team up with Grey Knights, and Dante agrees to have everyone mind wiped about it. I can understand doing that to guardsman and the regular populace, but I don't have any understanding of why they would want to do that to a Space Marine.

The mindwiping part is actually pretty old and it even makes sense. While spacemarines are mighty warriors they can still be corrupted, both in body and in mind.
Large scale daemonic infestations, the primary reason for a Grey Knights pressence, are one of the most corrupting things that a human being can witness
( the laws of physics are at least partialy suspended, the raw stuff of chaos spills into realspace and so on...). White mutation can be quickly dealt with corruption of the mind
is much more difficult to detect. Who can say which doubts ( or worse ) lurk in the mind of a spacemarine who witnessed hell become reality?
In such a case it is better to mindwipe the marine than to risk any chance of corruption ( which is still much better than the fate that is reserved for most other survivors of such an occurance ).

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

He got a 78 on the test, "irredeemable".

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.

"As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return."

Not at all....

http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue2.html


Put Draigo's Info in there, see what the Total is.

Umm...I got 124 for him, which is close to double the amount needed for "irredeemable mary sue"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

Yes, but they have flying rhinos.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

I got 73

"71 points or more: Irredeemable-Sue. You're going to have to start over, my friend. I know you want to keep writing, but no. Just no."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

On 1 GK comes 10 Custodians, and everyone of them is a mini-Emperor.
GK get raped hard...

It's not an open battle-field where 10 Custodes will always face 1 Grey Knight. It's the confines of a ship where each Grey Knight is roughly equal to a Custode WITHOUT his psychic powers.
All Space Marines are like mini-emperors, the Grey Knights are closer to Him than any other but the Primarchs.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

Umm...knothx.

They get chopped by custodes.

Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:It's not an open battle-field where 10 Custodes will always face 1 Grey Knight. It's the confines of a ship where each Grey Knight is roughly equal to a Custode WITHOUT his psychic powers.
All Space Marines are like mini-emperors, the Grey Knights are closer to Him than any other but the Primarchs.

...but the primarchs AND THE CUSTODES.

SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

Umm...knothx.

They get chopped by custodes.

Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.

Stop trolling.
Custodes have an enormous weakness in their lack of cooperation and battlefield direction. That makes them inferior soldiers to the Grey Knights.
The second part is conjecture. Custode equipment is great, but Grey Knight armour and weapons are literally the pinnacle of Asartes warfare. Provide a comparison or they're quite equal.

iproxtaco wrote:It's not an open battle-field where 10 Custodes will always face 1 Grey Knight. It's the confines of a ship where each Grey Knight is roughly equal to a Custode WITHOUT his psychic powers.
All Space Marines are like mini-emperors, the Grey Knights are closer to Him than any other but the Primarchs.

...but the primarchs AND THE CUSTODES.

SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

Grey Knights are likely copies of the Emperor, using unique geneseed derived straight from Him. The Custodes are so far detailed to be independently created slabs of genetic scrap grown in test-tubes. Any link to the Emperor is again, conjecture, until you provide some sort of proof.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Umm...I got 124 for him, which is close to double the amount needed for "irredeemable mary sue"

Really? I got 31. What test where you taking?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.

Maybe in M31, but Custodes equipment as of M41 consists of a leather coat and a communicator helmet. That's nothing compared to Aegis Armor.
Also, brotherhood an enormous weakness? You must be joking.

im2randomghgh wrote:
SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

Custodes aren't clones. They may use some of his genetics to attain their superhuman status, but they aren't clones.

Ironsight wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Umm...I got 124 for him, which is close to double the amount needed for "irredeemable mary sue"

Really? I got 31. What test where you taking?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.

Maybe in M31, but Custodes equipment as of M41 consists of a leather coat and a communicator helmet. That's nothing compared to Aegis Armor.
Also, brotherhood an enormous weakness? You must be joking.

im2randomghgh wrote:
SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

Custodes aren't clones. They may use some of his genetics to attain their superhuman status, but they aren't clones.

1. Unless you want to compare answers for the 200 questions...

2. They don't wear their equipment because they are not at war. I have never seen anything that said "they destroyed their equipment", unless of course you have a quote?

And if you read the returned, Tarikus, an otherwise steadfast sergeant, came phenominally close to being corrupted BECAUSE he desired brotherhood so much he almost sought it from TRAITOR MARINES.

3. They are much, much closer to clones than space marines. Space marines are augmented humans, custodes are creations.

And the GK thing had an alternate (and much, much more plausible) theory as to their origin where they had a "genetic cocktail" draw from several/all primarchs.

i dont want to join the big arguing im going to just add that if i remember correctly... dark gods is the same as chaos gods or ruinous powers
synonyms
diferent names for the same thing

I got a 35 on the test when I ran through it.

So we have one 35, one 124, one 73, and a 31.


We should compare our notes and see why we got such different answers. We won't, but we should.

The best we can really do unless we compare notes would be to add them up and divide by 4.


78.5

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I got a 35 on the test when I ran through it.

So we have one 35, one 124, one 73, and a 31.


We should compare our notes and see why we got such different answers. We won't, but we should.

The best we can really do unless we compare notes would be to add them up and divide by 4.


78.5

True. I checked the box that said "ninja" though, so I guess it's really 123

When the Necrons get all those pylon things up it wont much matter how Mary Sue Draigo is (aka Alpharius, because everybody knows Draigo is secretly just Alpharius).

iproxtaco wrote:So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

On another note, it's already been shown that the Custodes don't do so well against Astartes, when the Astartes also happen to be powerful psykers. Which the Grey Knights happen to be.

ph34r wrote:It sounds like Kanluwen is being an adult and Void__Dragon being the baby putting words in people's mouth in this situation.

Kan and I don't see eye to eye all the time but if we are agreeing against you, you probably fethed up bad.

Try to actually read the discussion before you start namecalling someone who can't recall talking to you. That'd be great.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. Unless you want to compare answers for the 200 questions...

Go ahead, take a screenshot of what you marked. I'm genuinely curious of how you manged to get 124 points without marking at least half the questions.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. They don't wear their equipment because they are not at war. I have never seen anything that said "they destroyed their equipment", unless of course you have a quote?

Ok, so if a Custodes and a Grey Knight were magicaly transported onto a battlefield from whatever they were doing at the time of 41.999, the Grey Knight would have the avantage.
If the Custodes had time to mobilize for battle, and had the gear he had fighting in M31, they'd be equal.
In armor, they are likely the same. In terms of weaponry though, Nemesis Force Halberd + Storm Bolter beats Guardian Spear.
And lets not forget about the formidable psychic powers all Grey Knights possess.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And if you read the returned, Tarikus, an otherwise steadfast sergeant, came phenominally close to being corrupted BECAUSE he desired brotherhood so much he almost sought it from TRAITOR MARINES.

I've not read the story, but going off your quote, that's a character flaw on his part and crappy writing on the authors part. You cannot seriously be thinking that unity and teamwork are "enormous weaknesses" on the the battlefield.

"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

A fair point SREG, those are a mixture of the two. True about the Geller Field as well but it's largley to keep from getting smashed to bits by storms and eaten by daemons and safe from the other denizens of the warp. Space Hulks and their occupants drift through the warp without Gellar Fields. The Eisentsteins Gellar field failed but they survived. The Gellar field makes warp travel safer, without one it would make travel very hazardous. In Soul Reaver a Red Corsair survives transition into the warp on the outside of a ship, he does get a bit daemony after that experience though.

Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

Really, the Custodes vs Grey Knight thing again?

Coa, influencing the design of armour doesn't make the original version superior, it's more than likely that the newer more up to date model is going to be more effective. Why give the Grey Knights inferior armour when they are actually fighting wars and not hanging around the palace?

And also

First among equals, the Grey Knights utilise the very finest equipment that the Mechanicum of Mars have to offer, vehicles and weaponry so esoteric and rare that they are reserved exclusively for their use.

So I would say that that trumps your

Brother Coa wrote:and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions.

But really, and I can't believe I am standing up for Kaldor, him surviving in the Warp is possible. After all, a very powerful Daemon Prince put him there. If the Dark Gods were to give Draigo their full attention they would obliterate him with little more than a thought. But look at this way, what more do the Gods enjoy than seeing their rivals come a cropper? It's all part of the Great Game.

The technology point is moot really, imo. Collective Visions (iirc) pointed out that Nemesis Force Weapons took their initial designs from the Guardian Spear. Considering all their similar preferences in technology (teleporting, etc) and that Grey Knights even have the authority to upgrade their mech regardless of the AdMech's opinion (C:GK - LR entry, etc.) it's not a far stretch to say that they're both roughly on equal terms. As I see it, Grey Knights really just picked up on the practices and technological innovations where the Custodes left off at after the Heresy.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?

Unfortunately, this sentence is also one of the most abused lines in the fluff when it comes to this argument. People keep on chopping that quote in half to suit their slanted views. The rest of the paragraph says something along the lines of the differences are minor and only notable in a few cases - that [unarmed] no-one would like to foolish enough to predict the outcome of a duel between the two. The same people are also often reluctant to bring up the fact that a GK can psychically boost their physical attributes (e.g. Hammerhand) to overcome stronger foes.

iproxtaco wrote:Grey Knights are good against everything and are a more effective fighting force.

When someone states that Grey Knights are only good against daemons, it is sure-sign method of identifying someone who knows sweet cuss-all about them. Grey Knights specialise in dealing with Daemons, true - that is their MO. But they are versatile and skillful enough to kick the cuss out of other types of opponent too. Sometimes just being associated with daemons, rather than being one is enough to end up on the receiving end of a NFW. Just ask the Flame Falcons and the Relictors. Recommended reading?: The Imperialis Armageddon - Hoare & McNeill, the Thule Decimation (WD 309) and The Killing Ground - McNeill. The last one actually has a fight where a GKBC makes a mockery of two UM officers. Aquillon and co. would have been proud.

Greyish wrote:The technology point is moot really, imo. Collective Visions (iirc) pointed out that Nemesis Force Weapons took their initial designs from the Guardian Spear. Considering all their similar preferences in technology (teleporting, etc) and that Grey Knights even have the authority to upgrade their mech regardless of the AdMech's opinion (C:GK - LR entry, etc.) it's not a far stretch to say that they're both roughly on equal terms. As I see it, Grey Knights really just picked up on the practices and technological innovations where the Custodes left off at after the Heresy.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?

Unfortunately, this sentence is also one of the most abused lines in the fluff when it comes to this argument. People keep on chopping that quote in half to suit their slanted views. The rest of the paragraph says something along the lines of the differences are minor and only notable in a few cases - that [unarmed] no-one would like to foolish enough to predict the outcome of a duel between the two. The same people are also often reluctant to bring up the fact that a GK can psychically boost their physical attributes (e.g. Hammerhand) to overcome stronger foes.

In a one-on-one fight, no one should. In a larger encounter, the fact that the Grey Knights support eachother would give them an edge.

As for the part I emphasized with italics, I've no problem to accept that. You seem to be thinking that I'm arguing in favour of the Custodes, when I'm in fact arguing for the Grey Knights.

Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

Its fun to watch other people ignore the proof presented in front of them, when you are not invested in the argument.

Here is what is happening, I've noticed Coa doing this in a lot of the threads I've read him respond in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I'm sure everyone that continues to argue with him also think they will change his mind, because they have all the evidence and are right, which is a form of belief perseverance as well.

Draigo doesn't even have one victory.

Also, I rated him as a 24.

CpatTom wrote:Its fun to watch other people ignore the proof presented in front of them, when you are not invested in the argument.

Here is what is happening, I've noticed Coa doing this in a lot of the threads I've read him respond in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I'm sure everyone that continues to argue with him also think they will change his mind, because they have all the evidence and are right, which is a form of belief perseverance as well.

So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.



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DarknessEternal wrote:Draigo doesn't even have one victory.

Acralem - "Victory on Acralem saw Draigo acclaimed with the rank of Justicar".
Seems like victory to me + this: "For two centuries Draigo served his Chapter and Emperor with unfailing distinction. He earned honours and glory unsurpassed by any Grey Knight before him, save perhaps Janus himself" - witch indicates that he earn that title in many combats before he was send to Warp. Many combats means many victories since 200 is a long time, and because he returned alive from all of them it's victory for him.

He means in the Warp.
It is nice yo see you not respond to anything put against you, at least you know when to give up.

It's not exactly confirmation bias when you are given information which proves your beliefs wrong. It's denial then.

Also, that Mary Sue test is designed to test characters written for a novel. About a quarter of the questions are non-applicable.

iproxtaco wrote:
Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"but the differences are only noticeably significant in a few specific cases..." Witch probably means they can always beat standard Marines except in that few cases.

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

You are right, when it comes to terms of tech and psychic powers. It appears that after the Heresy Custodes had to give their weapons to the Mechanicus so it can produce more advanced things. And armor didn't progress much from them, every marine still ware Mark VII armor ( witch dates from 31.000 ), Mark 8 is only recently upgraded and put in use. But Custodes have 1 advantage over the GK and that is numbers. When you look at it, Marines only have some better weapons and teamwork against them, Custodes have strength and numbers against them. And then can work in groups in special occasions.

But in the end Grey Knights are better because 1 factor - they fought in the last 10.000 years, Custodes didn't. There is even the information about Grey Knights wiping Ork WARGH!!! without any casualty and going away after that.


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Durza wrote:
Also, that Mary Sue test is designed to test characters written for a novel. About a quarter of the questions are non-applicable.

I can tell that he is Mary Sue even without that test.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"but the differences are only noticeably significant in a few specific cases..." Witch probably means they can always beat standard Marines except in that few cases.

No, that's not what it means, not what means at all. It means that your average Astartes is on par with your average Custode. It's only in special cases, eg. The Companions, that the Custode's differences are noticeable.

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

You are right, when it comes to terms of tech and psychic powers. It appears that after the Heresy Custodes had to give their weapons to the Mechanicus so it can produce more advanced things. And armor didn't progress much from them, every marine still ware Mark VII armor ( witch dates from 31.000 ), Mark 8 is only recently upgraded and put in use. But Custodes have 1 advantage over the GK and that is numbers. When you look at it, Marines only have some better weapons and teamwork against them, Custodes have strength and numbers against them. And then can work in groups in special occasions.

But in the end Grey Knights are better because 1 factor - they fought in the last 10.000 years, Custodes didn't. There is even the information about Grey Knights wiping Ork WARGH!!! without any casualty and going away after that.

They don't even have strength. Numbers, yes, that's so far their only advantage. It's not conventional Astartes we're talking about here, it's the elite of the elite, the Grey Knights. They're Astartes + 1, and that's just your average battle brother.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"but the differences are only noticeably significant in a few specific cases..." Witch probably means they can always beat standard Marines except in that few cases.

No, it means that there are hardly any cases where the Custodes' size would be enough of a difference to give them an advantage.

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

You are right, when it comes to terms of tech and psychic powers. It appears that after the Heresy Custodes had to give their weapons to the Mechanicus so it can produce more advanced things. And armor didn't progress much from them, every marine still ware Mark VII armor ( witch dates from 31.000 ), Mark 8 is only recently upgraded and put in use. But Custodes have 1 advantage over the GK and that is numbers. When you look at it, Marines only have some better weapons and teamwork against them, Custodes have strength and numbers against them. And then can work in groups in special occasions.

But in the end Grey Knights are better because 1 factor - they fought in the last 10.000 years, Custodes didn't. There is even the information about Grey Knights wiping Ork WARGH!!! without any casualty and going away after that.

And yet you ask when I've heard of Orks fighting GKs in another thread?

Brother Coa wrote:
So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.

So, would you say that continuing this argument was completely pointless because it never accomplishes anything?

CpatTom wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.

So, would you say that continuing this argument was completely pointless because it never accomplishes anything?

It has accomplished, Draigo will be victorious in the end witch makes all this "torture" thing irrelevant. And Dark Gods may refer to Chaos Gods to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the big question: Why would Astartes and Grey Knight fight against Custodes in the first place?