I'll say it again: if someone had written up Draigo for their DIY chapter, he'd be regarded as nothing more than an execrable, steaming pile of Mary Sue fanwank. The fact that he has the design studio's stamp of approval on him changes that completely for some people, for reasons unknown.
Seaward wrote:I'll say it again: if someone had written up Draigo for their DIY chapter, he'd be regarded as nothing more than an execrable, steaming pile of Mary Sue fanwank. The fact that he has the design studio's stamp of approval on him changes that completely for some people, for reasons unknown.
That's because Draigo is literally the master of chapter masters of the chapter dedicated solely to destroying daemons.
DIY chapters are not that.
But don't let me stop you from being mad for no reason.
Seaward wrote:I'll say it again: if someone had written up Draigo for their DIY chapter, he'd be regarded as nothing more than an execrable, steaming pile of Mary Sue fanwank. The fact that he has the design studio's stamp of approval on him changes that completely for some people, for reasons unknown.
That's because Draigo is literally the master of chapter masters of the chapter dedicated solely to destroying daemons.
DIY chapters are not that.
But don't let me stop you from being mad for no reason.
"Mad" is going rather overboard; I'm capable of calling a spade a spade without becoming angry at the spade for being a spade. If you think Khal Drogo Kaldor Draigo is a well-written character, more power to you, I suppose.
Wait. Wait, wait WAIT. Did I misread that, or did a space marine beat a demon prince/primarch? I was pretty sure people were exaggerating or something, but does that actually happen?
Isn't Mortarion like the size of a titan, and presumably made of tougher stuff?
spiralingcadaver wrote:Wait. Wait, wait WAIT. Did I misread that, or did a space marine beat a demon prince/primarch? I was pretty sure people were exaggerating or something, but does that actually happen?
Isn't Mortarion like the size of a titan, and presumably made of tougher stuff?
Yep that happened. What is worse - he beat him alone ( + he beat his guards before that ). Then while he was unconscious Draigo carved the name of his dead master on his heart.
spiralingcadaver wrote:Wait. Wait, wait WAIT. Did I misread that, or did a space marine beat a demon prince/primarch? I was pretty sure people were exaggerating or something, but does that actually happen?
Isn't Mortarion like the size of a titan, and presumably made of tougher stuff?
Daemon Mortarion has marines coming up to his knees, according to the Lexicanum picture.
Also, he fought two Grand Masters in a row. It's understandable that even a Daemon Primarch has his limits. Angron had a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters and that force couldn't kill 100 Grey Knight Terminators. Angron is one of the greatest hand-to-hand fighters among the Primarchs and has the backing of a Chaos God who is all about martial prowess, as well as 12 incredibly vicious and bloodthirsty Daemons who live for combat. Mortarion didn't show particular combat aptitude as a Primarch and has the backing of a Chaos God who is about slow-moving decay. His bodyguard is unspecified, so we don't know if it's twelve Great Unclean Ones, a single Nurgling, or a Nurgle Reaver Titan (Which would be awesome). According to Lexicanum, he had two Deathguard legionnaires as his bodyguards before the Heresy, but who knows if these are the same ones he had while fighting Draigo.
I think the fluff is stupid, especially since it's so brief and couldn't just stop at one ridiculous feat, but Mortarion losing is not unfluffy for my perception. Poorly-written fluff does not have to be wrong, it just has to be poorly-written.
spiralingcadaver wrote:Wait. Wait, wait WAIT. Did I misread that, or did a space marine beat a demon prince/primarch? I was pretty sure people were exaggerating or something, but does that actually happen?
Isn't Mortarion like the size of a titan, and presumably made of tougher stuff?
Mortarion is not the size of a titan.
Mortarion was beat by the greatest grandmaster of the Emperor's secret last ditch strategy to create space marine capable of defeating daemons. It is completely logical. If one of the Emperor's greatest final plans did nothing, that would be a great failure on his part. Who else is going to fight the daemon primarchs if not the grandmaster of the space marines designed by the Emperor to do that very exact thing?
And mortarion literally had just killed one GK supreme grand master before Draigo stepped up.
And Draigo ended up damned to the warp for all eternity in either case.
So what's your beef, brudda?
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Molten Butter wrote:Also, he fought two Grand Masters in a row. It's understandable that even a Daemon Primarch has his limits. Angron had a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters and that force couldn't kill 100 Grey Knight Terminators. Angron is one of the greatest hand-to-hand fighters among the Primarchs and has the backing of a Chaos God who is all about martial prowess, as well as 12 incredibly vicious and bloodthirsty Daemons who live for combat. Mortarion didn't show particular combat aptitude as a Primarch and has the backing of a Chaos God who is about slow-moving decay. His bodyguard is unspecified, so we don't know if it's twelve Great Unclean Ones, a single Nurgling, or a Nurgle Reaver Titan (Which would be awesome). According to Lexicanum, he had two Deathguard legionnaires as his bodyguards before the Heresy, but who knows if these are the same ones he had while fighting Draigo.
True dat. Everyone forgets that while Mortarion was beat by the Supreme Grandmaster of the GK alone, Angron was banished by a mere GK brother-captain, also alone. He had 99 buddies, but the story explicitly describes how the brother-captain busts through the mess and is the only one to reach Angron in time to stop him.
Molten Butter wrote:Mortarion didn't show particular combat aptitude as a Primarch and has the backing of a Chaos God who is about slow-moving decay. His bodyguard is unspecified, so we don't know if it's twelve Great Unclean Ones, a single Nurgling, or a Nurgle Reaver Titan (Which would be awesome). According to Lexicanum, he had two Deathguard legionnaires as his bodyguards before the Heresy, but who knows if these are the same ones he had while fighting Draigo.
I wouldn't agree with you in regards to Mortarion, sure he's in no way as much of a combatant as Angron nor blessed with the finesse of Fulgrim, but look how Garro describes him in Flight of the Eisenstein. He is a slugger and tough as nails.
When the Heresy broke out Mortarions bodyguard were the Deathshroud, Terminators like you say.
You make a good point, that Mortarion had just killed one grand master. Having time to carve his name into his heart is a bit silly though, unless he is Zorro.
ph34r wrote:True dat. Everyone forgets that while Mortarion was beat by the Supreme Grandmaster of the GK alone, Angron was banished by a mere GK brother-captain, also alone. He had 99 buddies, but the story explicitly describes how the brother-captain busts through the mess and is the only one to reach Angron in time to stop him.
Kinda correct, Aurellian was in a 1v1 with Angron until he nearly got killed by him. It was a combined psychic attack by the few remaining Grey Knights that done him enough to allow Aurellian to get the killing blow in.
Durza wrote:But they were made by Malcador, not the Emperor.
At the request of the Emperor.
You must draw about you men of character, skill and determination. These men are to be rigorously tested and trained to ensure they are of the highest caliber and that their loyalty to me is unshakable. These men will be the cadre of an elite of investigators whose role is to root out heresy and treachery wherever it may hide
Initially looks like the Inquisition but once Malcador brings them to the Emperor, he presents them as
Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a space marine. They have cast aside their allegiance to primarch and legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, Their emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching Loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, Kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years
I don't get why people just assume that the Chaos gods can kill Draigo at will. I mean this guy is so powerful he toys with (not only defeats, but actually makes them his play toys) daemon primarchs. And not only can he can survive in the warp without a Gellar Field, he goes around killing every daemon he can find and burns the Chaos gods' houses down. If I was a Chaos god I'd stay the hell away from this badass. Afterall, Khorne might be able to resurrect all the dead Bloodthirsters Draigo leaves in his wake, but who's gonna bring Khorne back to life after Draigo gets done with him?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Afterall, Khorne might be able to resurrect all the dead Bloodthirsters Draigo leaves in his wake, but who's gonna bring Khorne back to life after Draigo gets done with him?
When Draigo's done with Khorne, he [Draigo] will have learned not to go after stuff that's too high above his level.
You know politicians right? You know how they have this little tiny voice inside their head that screams about what all the little kiddies who put them in power want? You know that minuscule amount of effort those politicians use to squash that little voice?
I dunno. I think the reason why the Chaos gods haven't just squished him is because they can't. He's just too powerful. Afterall Draigo isn't just a dude with some geneseed. He's the greatest Grey Knight Grandmaster ever. He's the best of the best from a chapter that's specifically designed to destroy Chaos. If anyone can beat a Chaos god it's Draigo. Most likely the only reason why he hasn't already done it already is because he hasn't been able to find the Chaos gods. They're probably hiding from him because they're scared - and for good reason!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I dunno. I think the reason why the Chaos gods haven't just squished him is because they can't. He's just too powerful. Afterall Draigo isn't just a dude with some geneseed. He's the greatest Grey Knight Grandmaster ever. He's the best of the best from a chapter that's specifically designed to destroy Chaos. If anyone can beat a Chaos god it's Draigo. Most likely the only reason why he hasn't already done it already is because he hasn't been able to find the Chaos gods. They're probably hiding from him because they're scared - and for good reason!
And there in lies the problem.
The Emperor himself cannot destroy a Chaos God. The Chaos Gods really have no physical manifestation, and while humanity has greed, poverty, avarice, and lust, they will continue to thrive and only get stronger. If he were to actually face Khorne he wouldn't have a chance in hell. If the Emperor had a chance to kill the Chaos Gods he probably would have; but instead he learned about them, hid them from his children, and decided to try and find a way to defeat chaos... which ultimately lead to the corruption of half his children and the destruction of everything he strived for. The Chaos Gods don't NEED to be there to destroy you; they just need to set their minds to a common goal.
The issue with Draigo is, while he is a mighty warrior specifically built for a purpose, so too could chaos engineer something similar. The Chaos Gods CONTROL the warp... Draigo doesn't. The issue isn't that Draigo can single handedly kill a Greater Daemon or slaughter hordes of lesser Daemons; many charecters in the 40k universe can do the same. The issue is that Draigo's fluff makes him out to be a completely unstoppable killing machine that will single handedly destroy chaos and somehow, through magic or what have you, pops up from time to time to destroy chaos where ever it sprouts up in the material realm.
Draigos rules are OK. Borderline OP, but still good. But his fluff is completely ludacrious in so far as what the Dex makes him out to be.
I understand GK are engineered to fight Daemonic foes. But having ONE GUY destroying what is probably the most powerful force in the galaxy (they do have pretty much unlimited numbers, just need a way to get onto a planet) is just insane.
Zid wrote:
I understand GK are engineered to fight Daemonic foes. But having ONE GUY destroying what is probably the most powerful force in the galaxy (they do have pretty much unlimited numbers, just need a way to get onto a planet) is just insane.
And when did he ever do that? Because the codex I'm reading says he's, at best, slowing down a few daemons.
Zid wrote:
I understand GK are engineered to fight Daemonic foes. But having ONE GUY destroying what is probably the most powerful force in the galaxy (they do have pretty much unlimited numbers, just need a way to get onto a planet) is just insane.
And when did he ever do that? Because the codex I'm reading says he's, at best, slowing down a few daemons.
Well thats the impression I get when reading it Of course it could be my unending hate for Wards fluff....
Sorry but I do not accept that a TAU says something about RUINING THE BACKGROUND... Matt ward will never ruin the 40k fluff like the mere existence of Tau do.
The Emperor is not a Grey Knight. The Emperor is a very strong psyker, but Grey Knights are badasses whose sole purpose is to fight Chaos. They were created for this and this alone. And Draigo is the most badassed out of all of them. When it comes to fighting Chaos I could totally imagine Draigo being better at it than the Emperor.
The Emperor is not a Grey Knight. The Emperor is a very strong psyker, but Grey Knights are badasses whose sole purpose is to fight Chaos. They were created for this and this alone. And Draigo is the most badassed out of all of them. When it comes to fighting Chaos I could totally imagine Draigo being better at it than the Emperor.
Hmm. Are you trolling? Psychic powers are the best thing to fight Daemons. The Emperor is the greatest psyker we know of in 40k. Ergo, the Emperor is better.
The Emperor is not a Grey Knight. The Emperor is a very strong psyker, but Grey Knights are badasses whose sole purpose is to fight Chaos. They were created for this and this alone. And Draigo is the most badassed out of all of them. When it comes to fighting Chaos I could totally imagine Draigo being better at it than the Emperor.
Hmm. Are you trolling? Psychic powers are the best thing to fight Daemons. The Emperor is the greatest psyker we know of in 40k. Ergo, the Emperor is better.
Basically hes saying Draigo > the Emperor... Which, if by that reasoning is true, then lolz.
Draigo isn't more powerful than the Emperor. He's just more powerful than the Emperor when it comes to fighting Chaos. Afterall, the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor. Can the Emperor waltz around the Realm of Chaos without a Gellar Field? I don't think so.
When it comes to fighting Chaos Draigo is pretty much described as being invincible. If only he had been around during the Heresy! He would have undoubtedly kicked Horus' ass. Alone and unaided.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the emperor which is....basically himself?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the emperor which is....basically himself?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Draigo isn't more powerful than the Emperor. He's just more powerful than the Emperor when it comes to fighting Chaos. Afterall, the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor. Can the Emperor waltz around the Realm of Chaos without a Gellar Field? I don't think so.
Except he probably could. If Malcador was powerful enough to hide Titan in the Warp from the Chaos Gods, the Emperor is more than capable enough of hiding himself.
Seaward wrote:I'll say it again: if someone had written up Draigo for their DIY chapter, he'd be regarded as nothing more than an execrable, steaming pile of Mary Sue fanwank. The fact that he has the design studio's stamp of approval on him changes that completely for some people, for reasons unknown.
Only if he did something WAY over the top like hold down a Daemon-Primarch like he's his kid brother and carve a name into his heart.
punkow wrote:Sorry but I do not accept that a TAU says something about RUINING THE BACKGROUND... Matt ward will never ruin the 40k fluff like the mere existence of Tau do.
Sorry that the Tau are not depressed enough for you. Heaven forbid something with enough sense to shoot the enemy instead of poking it with a stick exists in the grim darkness of 40k.
On subject, I really enjoy the fact that Draigo is now more powerful than the Emperor. Daigo's power continues to grow as people believe in his power.... Wait a minute!
I don't know why people get so hung up on Draigo beating Mortarion when he has done so much better.
Primarchs have been defeated before, but to date Draigo is the only person to walk into the Garden of Nurgle and burn it to the ground, or solve the Infinite Labyrinth only to crush the Inevitable City.
To people who call Draigo a cockroach: I don't know about you, but a roach has never burned my house down.
People say that Draigo's exploits accomplish nothing, that every Daemon he kills is just reborn.
I ask you: How is that any different from any other Grey Knight?
Rare is the Grey Knight who actually permanently accomplishes something against Chaos, they can only stall the Daemons they kill.
Every Daemon spending time being curbstomped by Draigo is one not fething gak up in the Materium, and Draigo's burning of the Garden of Nurgle surely stalled the forces of the Plaguefather greater than any other Grey Knight has. In the Warp, Draigo doesn't have to rely on the unreliable precognition of those guys on Titan whose names I forgot nor does he have to wait for Daemons to attack the Materium before he can go feth gak up. He now brings the fight directly to them.
Draigo's fluff doesn't come off as "tragic" because there's nothing more tragic about it than the Imperium's standard fight against Chaos, in all honesty it is less so. Not to mentioned how over the top and ridiculous it reads.
Void__Dragon wrote:
I ask you: How is that any different from any other Grey Knight?
It isn't, which is the entire point. His predicament is representative of the Grey Knights' struggle. And the roach example would be more valid if your house reformed as soon as anything happens to it. He's not doing permanent damage to anything.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:It isn't, which is the entire point. His predicament is representative of the Grey Knights' struggle. And the roach example would be more valid if your house reformed as soon as anything happens to it. He's not doing permanent damage to anything.
"He unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."
The Garden didn't just grow back instantly, it took time.
Draigo accomplishes more against Chaos than any other Grey Knight.
He walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it to ash.
You can't seriously read that and think that's fine, let alone good fluff.
The futile struggle against Chaos was already prevalent in the fluff. Some douchebag who runs around the Warp burning down the entire domains of the Chaos Gods doesn't need to be created to convey that.
If Draigo's struggle is supposed to be presented as futile and sad, the book does a pretty bad job of supporting that theme. It's far too optimistic, and it still presents his achievements with adulation.
Also, even if it could work logically, it doesn't feel good for Death Guard/Chaos to have Mortarion humiliated just to make Draigo look better. A Daemon Primarch shouldn't be like Worf from Star Trek.
Then Draigo just goes off the deep end with getting bigger and bigger accomplishments, to the point that he almost seems to step into parody.
punkow wrote:Sorry but I do not accept that a TAU says something about RUINING THE BACKGROUND... Matt ward will never ruin the 40k fluff like the mere existence of Tau do.
iproxtaco wrote:
Wait a minute?! Neither do I. That's because it doesn't exist, and you're making it up that someone said he was being tortured.
It was not you who indicated that he is not super bad ass at all but mere prisoner and that he is suffering every day by the hand of Chaos Gods? ( something with his all deeds are useless because in Warp everything is rebuild again so his entire effort is for nothing and that means that Chaos Gods are torturing him and enjoy? I learned that from you ).
Nope. I indicated that he was powerful, super bad ass if you will, and that the Chaos Gods enjoy watching his escapades as they are insignificant. I NEVER SAID HE WAS BEING TORTURED, THAT'S YOUR OWN FABRICATION.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."
"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."
/Custodian discussion
They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?
Being individually powerful is much more useful than teamwork.
Would marbo destroy armies if he attacked in formation? no.
The major flaw in that reasoning being that Grey Knights are individually better than a single Custode, two will be better than three, three will be better than five, and so on and so forth. Being individually powerful AND using teamwork is much superior than having just the former. Custodes are at a major disadvantage. Deal with it.
Either way comparison is flawed. GK are meant to teleport onto a field, kill a leader, and let allies mop up the mess.
Custodes are meant to protect the Emperor, the Imperial Palace, and Terra. They are also trained in assassination, and (presumably, based on their jetbikes, fling rhinos, and leaner, more form fitting armour) prefer speed.
It's a perfectly fine comparison. Saying it's flawed is a sign that you've finally run our out of bogus information to spew at us.
And the reason AC armour is better than GK armour is that it offers atleast as much protection with greatly enhanced mobility, due to not having as much bulk.
Evidence for offering at least as much protection. Grey Knight armour is the most up-to-date Power Armour available, crafted specifically for them. Custodes armour was good 10,000 years ago, now, not so much.
2. What are you TALKING ABOUT? They are not, in any sense, individually superior. We had already gotten past the fact that a custodian legionnary would break a GK in individual combat. Now picture that happening 1000x, and each time being 10-1. Also, they are not as weak as you all seem to think in regards to psykers, as the one time they were pictured fighting psykers was written from the point of view from one of the four most powerful sorcerers in a legion of sorcerers who utilised the fullest extent of their power possible, without using a psychic hood either. To even consider comparing a rank and file GK to a Sorcerer (sorcerer>psyker) who's power was roughly 1:2500 among the most psychically power legion is just silly. Comparing him even to Tigurius would be ridiculous.
3. No, saying it's flawed is like saying "it's flawed". The Custodes draw more paralles to the Officio Assassinorum than to the GK. Incidentally, assassins rape GK.
4. Up-to-date means nothing outside of the Tau where 40k is concerned. Haven't you learned the #2 rule of the IoM? The older, the more high-tech. Also, in just about every BL book ever, bolts ignore PA as if it were cloth, whereas in the 1st heretic, Vendatha survived a FULL bolter clip in the face, and his helmet held. Also, it took him being beheaded by twin power swords and having his head mounted on a pike to kill him...eventually.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Draigo isn't more powerful than the Emperor. He's just more powerful than the Emperor when it comes to fighting Chaos. Afterall, the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor. Can the Emperor waltz around the Realm of Chaos without a Gellar Field? I don't think so.
When it comes to fighting Chaos Draigo is pretty much described as being invincible. If only he had been around during the Heresy! He would have undoubtedly kicked Horus' ass. Alone and unaided.
So much troll...
Are you forgetting that the chaos gods keep KD around for gaks and giggles, and that they desperately wanted to kill the Emperor because he was a threat to their existence but couldn't.
And really? The Emperor doesn't have faith in the Emperor is your logic? He has literally infinite willpower.
im2randomghgh wrote:2. What are you TALKING ABOUT? They are not, in any sense, individually superior. We had already gotten past the fact that a custodian legionnary would break a GK in individual combat. Now picture that happening 1000x, and each time being 10-1. Also, they are not as weak as you all seem to think in regards to psykers, as the one time they were pictured fighting psykers was written from the point of view from one of the four most powerful sorcerers in a legion of sorcerers who utilised the fullest extent of their power possible, without using a psychic hood either. To even consider comparing a rank and file GK to a Sorcerer (sorcerer>psyker) who's power was roughly 1:2500 among the most psychically power legion is just silly. Comparing him even to Tigurius would be ridiculous.
Dude have some consistency in your arguments. Last time this discussion came up, you said Thousand Sons sorcerers were weaker than Librarians, now you're implying Phosis T'kar was stronger than Tigurius? Lol what?
Also, hammerhand kind of makes the Grey Knight physically superior, plus better teamwork and cooperation.
3. No, saying it's flawed is like saying "it's flawed". The Custodes draw more paralles to the Officio Assassinorum than to the GK. Incidentally, assassins rape GK.
A Culexus Assassin maybe. When have assassins "raped" GK?
Also, in just about every BL book ever, bolts ignore PA as if it were cloth, whereas in the 1st heretic, Vendatha survived a FULL bolter clip in the face, and his helmet held. Also, it took him being beheaded by twin power swords and having his head mounted on a pike to kill him...eventually.
Stop assuming that "Dan Abnett's books" is the equivelant to "every BL book ever."
gak, I'm reading Eisenhorn right now, and in Xenos, a Marine takes a salvo of bolter fire to the chest and is uninjured.
So even Dan Abnett seems to be mostly aware of how durable power armour is.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:It isn't, which is the entire point. His predicament is representative of the Grey Knights' struggle. And the roach example would be more valid if your house reformed as soon as anything happens to it. He's not doing permanent damage to anything.
"He unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."
The Garden didn't just grow back instantly, it took time.
Draigo accomplishes more against Chaos than any other Grey Knight.
He walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it to ash.
You can't seriously read that and think that's fine, let alone good fluff.
The futile struggle against Chaos was already prevalent in the fluff. Some douchebag who runs around the Warp burning down the entire domains of the Chaos Gods doesn't need to be created to convey that.
Nurgle is creeping death though...makes sense to me that the garden would grow back slowly.
im2randomghgh wrote:2. What are you TALKING ABOUT? They are not, in any sense, individually superior. We had already gotten past the fact that a custodian legionnary would break a GK in individual combat. Now picture that happening 1000x, and each time being 10-1. Also, they are not as weak as you all seem to think in regards to psykers, as the one time they were pictured fighting psykers was written from the point of view from one of the four most powerful sorcerers in a legion of sorcerers who utilised the fullest extent of their power possible, without using a psychic hood either. To even consider comparing a rank and file GK to a Sorcerer (sorcerer>psyker) who's power was roughly 1:2500 among the most psychically power legion is just silly. Comparing him even to Tigurius would be ridiculous.
Dude have some consistency in your arguments. Last time this discussion came up, you said Thousand Sons sorcerers were weaker than Librarians, now you're implying Phosis T'kar was stronger than Tigurius? Lol what?
Also, hammerhand kind of makes the Grey Knight physically superior, plus better teamwork and cooperation.
3. No, saying it's flawed is like saying "it's flawed". The Custodes draw more paralles to the Officio Assassinorum than to the GK. Incidentally, assassins rape GK.
A Culexus Assassin maybe. When have assassins "raped" GK?
Also, in just about every BL book ever, bolts ignore PA as if it were cloth, whereas in the 1st heretic, Vendatha survived a FULL bolter clip in the face, and his helmet held. Also, it took him being beheaded by twin power swords and having his head mounted on a pike to kill him...eventually.
Stop assuming that "Dan Abnett's books" is the equivelant to "every BL book ever."
gak, I'm reading Eisenhorn right now, and in Xenos, a Marine takes a salvo of bolter fire to the chest and is uninjured.
So even Dan Abnett seems to be mostly aware of how durable power armour is.
1. Inferior as in "They might have their souls eaten". Can't deny they get results. Plus hammerhand is nothing compared to knowing what your opponent is going to do before he does it, in the most literal sense. But as to Hammerhand vs. Custodes, it would TEMPERORARILY make them not at a disadvantage. There IS a distinction.
2. Fluff examples of Assassin vs. GK would be quite odd, so I am going by TT stats. And I am betting KD would be butt-ugly after a headshot from a turbo-penetrator round. In fluff I can't see individual GK beating assassins one-on-one, ever.
3. Not just Dan Abnett, ever picked up the SM short story collections? Every single author describes bolts as easily penetrating marine armour, to the point where a bolt pistol round from a Novamarine went into his gut, and out the back, and almost penetrated the artificer armour of the librarian behind him in "Trial of the Mantis Warriors".
Also, in another SS, a combat knife passed through the breast plate of a traitor marine like it was paper. And the astartes who was stabbing was so heavily wounded it's amazing his sus-an organ hadn't knocked him out yet. And the breast plate is the single most durable part of the armour.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. Inferior as in "They might have their souls eaten". Can't deny they get results. Plus hammerhand is nothing compared to knowing what your opponent is going to do before he does it, in the most literal sense. But as to Hammerhand vs. Custodes, it would TEMPERORARILY make them not at a disadvantage. There IS a distinction.
It doesn't really require much concentration for a Grey Knight to use Hammerhand. And Phosis T'kar nor Hathoor Maat were Corvidae, they didn't predict the movements of the Custodes, they just kind of killed them. Though yes, Phosis T'kar was psychically more powerful than most Grey Knights. But the difference is that all Grey Knights have a good deal of psychic powers, not every Thousand Son did.
2. Fluff examples of Assassin vs. GK would be quite odd, so I am going by TT stats. And I am betting KD would be butt-ugly after a headshot from a turbo-penetrator round. In fluff I can't see individual GK beating assassins one-on-one, ever.
If you go by fluff, a Hive Tyrant is apparently immune to attacks from Wraithlords. This is kind of not the case in the tabletop. Tabletop isn't as incredibly reliable as some think it is IMO. And depends on the Grey Knight.
3. Not just Dan Abnett, ever picked up the SM short story collections? Every single author describes bolts as easily penetrating marine armour, to the point where a bolt pistol round from a Novamarine went into his gut, and out the back, and almost penetrated the artificer armour of the librarian behind him in "Trial of the Mantis Warriors".
Yet I haven't read anything like this. Odd. Especially since it's pretty evident a Marine can tank bolter fire in his armour, hell, a Marine in Fallen Angels withstands a short salvo of heavy bolter rounds.
Also, in another SS, a combat knife passed through the breast plate of a traitor marine like it was paper. And the astartes who was stabbing was so heavily wounded it's amazing his sus-an organ hadn't knocked him out yet. And the breast plate is the single most durable part of the armour.
I'm kind of doubting the truth of this claim, no offense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironsight wrote:Nurgle is creeping death though...makes sense to me that the garden would grow back slowly.
Perhaps.
But that's not really what I'm saying, which is that, if Ward intended Draigo to be a tragic, depressing character, he failed pretty miserably to convey that, IMO.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. Inferior as in "They might have their souls eaten". Can't deny they get results. Plus hammerhand is nothing compared to knowing what your opponent is going to do before he does it, in the most literal sense. But as to Hammerhand vs. Custodes, it would TEMPERORARILY make them not at a disadvantage. There IS a distinction.
It doesn't really require much concentration for a Grey Knight to use Hammerhand. And Phosis T'kar nor Hathoor Maat were Corvidae, they didn't predict the movements of the Custodes, they just kind of killed them. Though yes, Phosis T'kar was psychically more powerful than most Grey Knights. But the difference is that all Grey Knights have a good deal of psychic powers, not every Thousand Son did.
2. Fluff examples of Assassin vs. GK would be quite odd, so I am going by TT stats. And I am betting KD would be butt-ugly after a headshot from a turbo-penetrator round. In fluff I can't see individual GK beating assassins one-on-one, ever.
If you go by fluff, a Hive Tyrant is apparently immune to attacks from Wraithlords. This is kind of not the case in the tabletop. Tabletop isn't as incredibly reliable as some think it is IMO. And depends on the Grey Knight.
3. Not just Dan Abnett, ever picked up the SM short story collections? Every single author describes bolts as easily penetrating marine armour, to the point where a bolt pistol round from a Novamarine went into his gut, and out the back, and almost penetrated the artificer armour of the librarian behind him in "Trial of the Mantis Warriors".
Yet I haven't read anything like this. Odd. Especially since it's pretty evident a Marine can tank bolter fire in his armour, hell, a Marine in Fallen Angels withstands a short salvo of heavy bolter rounds.
Also, in another SS, a combat knife passed through the breast plate of a traitor marine like it was paper. And the astartes who was stabbing was so heavily wounded it's amazing his sus-an organ hadn't knocked him out yet. And the breast plate is the single most durable part of the armour.
I'm kind of doubting the truth of this claim, no offense.
I am feeling lazy, so I'll only bother to respond to the last part
Spoiler:
In legends of the space marines, in the short story called "The Last Detail" By Paul Kearney, a wounded space marine from the Dark Hunters chapter was helped out of rubble and stripped of his (powerless) armour by a local farmer and his son. This already crippled, armour less astartes (Who was described as 9' feet tall w.o armour, and his bolter was described as bigger than the farmer's ~12 yr old son) had a full-auto las-burst pumped into his abdomen, and then fought a traitor marine in full armour who easily wrestled him to the ground. The traitor marine was distracted by the farmer and his son (who went on to join the astartes) distracted the traitor who was about to execute the SM with his bolt pistol, and while the traitor (who apparently had priority issues) was turned away, he swiped his knife and stabbed bother his hearts.
Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."
"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."
/Custodian discussion
They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?
Being individually powerful is much more useful than teamwork.
Would marbo destroy armies if he attacked in formation? no.
The major flaw in that reasoning being that Grey Knights are individually better than a single Custode, two will be better than three, three will be better than five, and so on and so forth. Being individually powerful AND using teamwork is much superior than having just the former. Custodes are at a major disadvantage. Deal with it.
Either way comparison is flawed. GK are meant to teleport onto a field, kill a leader, and let allies mop up the mess.
Custodes are meant to protect the Emperor, the Imperial Palace, and Terra. They are also trained in assassination, and (presumably, based on their jetbikes, fling rhinos, and leaner, more form fitting armour) prefer speed.
It's a perfectly fine comparison. Saying it's flawed is a sign that you've finally run our out of bogus information to spew at us.
And the reason AC armour is better than GK armour is that it offers atleast as much protection with greatly enhanced mobility, due to not having as much bulk.
Evidence for offering at least as much protection. Grey Knight armour is the most up-to-date Power Armour available, crafted specifically for them. Custodes armour was good 10,000 years ago, now, not so much.
2. What are you TALKING ABOUT? They are not, in any sense, individually superior. We had already gotten past the fact that a custodian legionnary would break a GK in individual combat. Now picture that happening 1000x, and each time being 10-1. Also, they are not as weak as you all seem to think in regards to psykers, as the one time they were pictured fighting psykers was written from the point of view from one of the four most powerful sorcerers in a legion of sorcerers who utilised the fullest extent of their power possible, without using a psychic hood either. To even consider comparing a rank and file GK to a Sorcerer (sorcerer>psyker) who's power was roughly 1:2500 among the most psychically power legion is just silly. Comparing him even to Tigurius would be ridiculous.[/quote
No, we had not established that, at all. You independently believe that despite the evidence presented against the point. If your average Custode is equal to your average Astartes, and Grey Knights are much superior in every sense to your average Custode, then your average Grey Knight is better than your average Custode. I'm still betting that a Grey Knight is going to cut down a bunch of Custodes with relative ease.
3. No, saying it's flawed is like saying "it's flawed". The Custodes draw more paralles to the Officio Assassinorum than to the GK. Incidentally, assassins rape GK.
It's still not flawed at all. Custodes are still heavy duty warriors that protect the Emperor during battle, they sometimes take on the role of spies and undercover agents, but that's not what they were made for. They're power armoured and bio engineered. The comparison is fine, you're still butt-hurt that Grey Knights are so obviously better and you have nothing to counter me with.
4. Up-to-date means nothing outside of the Tau where 40k is concerned. Haven't you learned the #2 rule of the IoM? The older, the more high-tech. Also, in just about every BL book ever, bolts ignore PA as if it were cloth, whereas in the 1st heretic, Vendatha survived a FULL bolter clip in the face, and his helmet held. Also, it took him being beheaded by twin power swords and having his head mounted on a pike to kill him...eventually.
Not in the case of Power Armour. The more recent models are superior to the old Heresy-Era suits. If that weren't true, then the Grey Knights would stockpile them, but they don't, they have new suits made by a Forge World because they're better. As Void_Dragon has already said, Dan Abnett makes up a relatively small fraction of BL Space Marine publications. His accounts are at the very low end of the scale, and are far from the norm. Which, by the way, is that Power Armour can take many hits from Bolters without failing. Talos takes the combined fire-power of about five Asartes firing full-auto through a door and they don't penetrate to produce the explosive results. His armour is severely damaged, but Talos was alive. In better state than Vendatha, whose helmet did not hold. You could see his face through it. He was pretty much down by that point. He was not beheaded. Argel Tal expected a blade to the mouth would end it, but he somehow survived. Seriously, stop spewing gak and read what you reference. Could have been Warp trickery to keep him as a sacrifice.
im2randomghgh wrote:
I am feeling lazy, so I'll only bother to respond to the last part
Spoiler:
In legends of the space marines, in the short story called "The Last Detail" By Paul Kearney, a wounded space marine from the Dark Hunters chapter was helped out of rubble and stripped of his (powerless) armour by a local farmer and his son. This already crippled, armour less astartes (Who was described as 9' feet tall w.o armour, and his bolter was described as bigger than the farmer's ~12 yr old son) had a full-auto las-burst pumped into his abdomen, and then fought a traitor marine in full armour who easily wrestled him to the ground. The traitor marine was distracted by the farmer and his son (who went on to join the astartes) distracted the traitor who was about to execute the SM with his bolt pistol, and while the traitor (who apparently had priority issues) was turned away, he swiped his knife and stabbed bother his hearts.
Seriously. The stabbing took place pages 360-361.
Sounds like throwaway fiction by some trial-writer. Stories like that aren't good sources of information.
You are absolutely so far off the mark, it is astounding.
It is only logical that the Emperor would use sub-par warriors as his last line of defense and only defense against infiltrating opponents, right?
I swear. Think before you post. The Legion Custodes are the absolute most powerful warriors ever created by humanity. With the exception of Primarchs, there simply aren't any warriors who can hold a flame to them.
Plus, unlike Custodes, GK know fear. In their own omnibus, Alaric was TERRIFIED that he would be the first Grey Knight to fall to chaos. This combined with their reliance upon their brothers is a good portion of why they simply pale in comparison to the Legio Custodes.
Also, notice how their weapons are all imitations of Custodes equipment? Just sayin'
You are absolutely so far off the mark, it is astounding.
It is only logical that the Emperor would use sub-par warriors as his last line of defense and only defense against infiltrating opponents, right?
I swear. Think before you post. The Legion Custodes are the absolute most powerful warriors ever created by humanity. With the exception of Primarchs, there simply aren't any warriors who can hold a flame to them.
Plus, unlike Custodes, GK know fear. In their own omnibus, Alaric was TERRIFIED that he would be the first Grey Knight to fall to chaos. This combined with their reliance upon their brothers is a good portion of why they simply pale in comparison to the Legio Custodes.
Also, notice how their weapons are all imitations of Custodes equipment? Just sayin'
PLUS Custodes had flying Rhinos.
I'm far off the mark? You have literally NOTHING to refute mine and others arguments.
Grey Knight weaponry was influenced by the Custodes, 10,000 years ago. Read the quotes in the thread, just sayin'.
Void__Dragon wrote:"He unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."
The Garden didn't just grow back instantly, it took time.
Draigo accomplishes more against Chaos than any other Grey Knight.
He walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it to ash.
You can't seriously read that and think that's fine, let alone good fluff.
The futile struggle against Chaos was already prevalent in the fluff. Some douchebag who runs around the Warp burning down the entire domains of the Chaos Gods doesn't need to be created to convey that.
Hahahahahahahha no.
Draigo accomplishes a ton of stuff that is never permanent. He can only sometimes even help against a daemonic incursion, when he is a part of it.
On the other hand regular GK can respond to any incursion and actually save imperial lives rather than just mucking up nurgle's stupid garden that grows back the next day.
Draigo accomplishes a ton of stuff that is never permanent. He can only sometimes even help against a daemonic incursion, when he is a part of it.
On the other hand regular GK can respond to any incursion and actually save imperial lives rather than just mucking up nurgle's stupid garden that grows back the next day.
Nothing the GK do is ever permanent, short of the occasional good day where they get to bind a Daemon.
"Long time" does not typically imply it took a single day.
Draigo has destroyed two of the God's realms personally, which probably stalled their Daemonic servants more than anything short of outright binding ever could.
Draigo could theoretically be a good character concept, were he not so incredibly over the top.
Nothing about the passage reads off as tragic IMHO.
Yeah, but how many lives does burning nurgle's dumbass garden save? Zero.
How many lives do regular GK save? Lots.
The passage may not read as tragic, but Draigo is really quite useless upon inspection.
We can never know if wrecking the stuff in the warp actually takes any effort for the big 4 to rebuild. Also since most daemons are summoned in by worshippers, who knows if what they do in their free time in the warp matters at all.
ph34r wrote:Yeah, but how many lives does burning nurgle's dumbass garden save? Zero.
How many lives do regular GK save? Lots.
The passage may not read as tragic, but Draigo is really quite useless upon inspection.
We can never know if wrecking the stuff in the warp actually takes any effort for the big 4 to rebuild. Also since most daemons are summoned in by worshippers, who knows if what they do in their free time in the warp matters at all.
Grey Knights save lives? I was under the impression that anyone who so much as sees a Daemon or Grey Knight is executed.
I'm not saying Draigo was not intended to be tragic, that's very possible, even likely.
I'm saying the execution was IMO botched when translated onto paper, due to the over the top nature of the things he does, as well as the optimistic way it was written. I can even admit Draigo is a potentially cool concept, but... I find it hard to feel sorry for someone who beats the gak out of everything in the Warp without even the implication that anything can challenge him there (Obviously, the Gods themselves being exceptions to this). I have no problem with Draigo being incorruptible in the Warp either, as some have. But as said, Grey Knights, though immune to being corrupted by Chaos, are not immune to their powers. I find Draigo even being capable of surviving being near the Garden of Nurgle odd, considering it is the single greatest concentration of Nurgle's poxes and plagues in the Warp or out of it.
Oh, this reminds me, what happens to a Daemon if it is killed in the Warp? I honestly have no idea.
Draigo's story isn't meant to be tragic. It's meant to show his super-awesomeness. He's so invincible that not even being in hell itself can phase him. He goes around kicking the Chaos Gods in the balls on daily basis on their own turf. But what can they do? Nothing, for he is Lord Draigo.
Wait, did he really make it to the Inevitable City and burn it down? If so, everyone's, "Nah, Draigo's fluff is fine," argument immediately fails. No exceptions.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, this reminds me, what happens to a Daemon if it is killed in the Warp? I honestly have no idea.
Nothing exceptional happens. They spring back up immediately somewhere else.
Draigo will inevitably die there. No deamon he fights ever will. That's why there's nothing wrong with his fluff. It is a microcosm of the entire setting.
Seaward wrote:Wait, did he really make it to the Inevitable City and burn it down? If so, everyone's, "Nah, Draigo's fluff is fine," argument immediately fails. No exceptions.
Not really. The city is almost immediately rebuilt, and hes torn it down many times, each time the same thing happens. Hence his accomplishments are meaningless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, this reminds me, what happens to a Daemon if it is killed in the Warp? I honestly have no idea.
Nothing exceptional happens. They spring back up immediately somewhere else.
Draigo will inevitably die there. No deamon he fights ever will. That's why there's nothing wrong with his fluff. It is a microcosm of the entire setting.
They don't spring up immediately. They return to become part of their God, who then decides when its reborn.
Seaward wrote:Wait, did he really make it to the Inevitable City and burn it down? If so, everyone's, "Nah, Draigo's fluff is fine," argument immediately fails. No exceptions.
Not really. The city is almost immediately rebuilt, and hes torn it down many times, each time the same thing happens. Hence his accomplishments are meaningless.
1) One man has repeatedly gotten to a city that is impossible for unwarped mortals to get to.
2) One man has repeatedly torn that city down. Alone.
Personally, I'd want to think long and hard about throwing in with the side that says, "Yeah, one guy in Terminator armor can take down a city by himself. He's really, really good at killing cities because of his super-special anti-inhabitant training!"
The people who think this drivel is perfectly fine and those who laugh at it are simply never going to see eye to eye, unfortunately.
You know what Coa? I'm starting to thing you're a fellow Templar. It's the only way to explain your constant faith in the Emperor in every single thread.
A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.
There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.
I don't think anyone can deny that Ward has a terrible writing style. His ideas and concepts vary hugely, but his technical skill is consistently bad. This is an example of good to meh concept ruined by shoddy writing.
But, this is the internet, so I must take to the opposite side of the argument just to continue the thread.
I believe that Ward is an excellent writer, as shown by his wonderful grammar and sentence structure, utilized to highlight the wonderful thematic elements sown throughout his prose. Draigo for example, takes the story of Sysiphus and applies it to the grim dark universe of 40k splendidly well. By allowing Draigo to accomplish all of his desire day in and day out, but have them all come to naught, Ward brilliantly exposes the failures of the Grey Knight organization, and The Imperium of Man as a whole. All in all, i give Draigo, and his brilliantly constructed story, 5 out of 5 stars.
You know what Coa? I'm starting to thing you're a fellow Templar. It's the only way to explain your constant faith in the Emperor in every single thread.
I am Brother Coa, captain of the Blood Raven's 1'st company. Purge of Xenos, repent of Heretics, purger of Mutants, servant of the Emperor.
At your disposal brother Walrus
Zid wrote:
Basically hes saying Draigo > the Emperor... Which, if by that reasoning is true, then lolz.
No......just no.....
Emperor psychic power is Draigo x 1.000.000%
Surprisingly, this.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I dunno. I think the reason why the Chaos gods haven't just squished him is because they can't. He's just too powerful. Afterall Draigo isn't just a dude with some geneseed. He's the greatest Grey Knight Grandmaster ever. He's the best of the best from a chapter that's specifically designed to destroy Chaos. If anyone can beat a Chaos god it's Draigo. Most likely the only reason why he hasn't already done it already is because he hasn't been able to find the Chaos gods. They're probably hiding from him because they're scared - and for good reason!
No. No. No. No. You know the way sometimes there's a fly buzzing around your head when you're doing something interesting and you don't squish it, you ignore it. Draigo is that fly. If anyone can beat a Chaos god, and they can't, it's still not Draigo. Going back to the fly image, would you hide from one just because it buzzed a bit?
Durza wrote: Going back to the fly image, would you hide from one just because it buzzed a bit?
I'd give serious thought to killing it if it burned my house down seven or eight times. Yeah, insurance keeps slapping it right back up, but it's still fething annoying.
Say you and your friends are hanging out in your Super Impenetrable Fortress of Doom(tm).
One day, this superhero jerk shows up inside of your SIFD. He didn't end on getting inside, and he's stuck. He wants to destroy everything...but because of your superevilgenius powers, you and your friends have him trapped in there with you. He can't get to you or your friends, he just constantly has to fight your unending tide of minions and occasionally breaks something valuable (which your minions fix in between waves of them rushing the superhero jerk and dying en masse).
Would you kill it--or start placing bets on how long it lasts?
But, this is the internet, so I must take to the opposite side of the argument just to continue the thread.
I believe that Ward is an excellent writer, as shown by his wonderful grammar and sentence structure, utilized to highlight the wonderful thematic elements sown throughout his prose. Draigo for example, takes the story of Sysiphus and applies it to the grim dark universe of 40k splendidly well. By allowing Draigo to accomplish all of his desire day in and day out, but have them all come to naught, Ward brilliantly exposes the failures of the Grey Knight organization, and The Imperium of Man as a whole. All in all, i give Draigo, and his brilliantly constructed story, 5 out of 5 stars.
I laughed, hard. That being said, hasn't GW come out and said that fluff written even in the codex is a possible load of bs, lies, and fanboy wetdreams, like itn is with Black Library? It makes me think that almost everything in the GK 'dex is a load of concentrated hyperbole.
Durza wrote:Or continue playing games against each other?
Who says you have to stop?
One day Khorne's Bloodletters lead Draigo on a merry chase through Nurgle's gardens, next thing you know everything's on fire and Nurgle's calling shenanigans!
Kanluwen wrote:Say you and your friends are hanging out in your Super Impenetrable Fortress of Doom(tm).
One day, this superhero jerk shows up inside of your SIFD. He didn't end on getting inside, and he's stuck. He wants to destroy everything...but because of your superevilgenius powers, you and your friends have him trapped in there with you. He can't get to you or your friends, he just constantly has to fight your unending tide of minions and occasionally breaks something valuable (which your minions fix in between waves of them rushing the superhero jerk and dying en masse).
Would you kill it--or start placing bets on how long it lasts?
The Ruinous Powers are, at heart, Bond villains with the powers of gods.
I dunno about that. They're winning, after all. Tzeentch especially plays a long game.
If you're a Bond villain, of course you leave him out there. You probably taunt him about how he'll never get in and triumph over you in any significant way, too.
If you're a pragmatist playing for the fate of the galaxy, you kill him, because, hey, why risk it? If dude's powerful enough to keep his TDA functioning eternally with nothing more than spit, if he somehow keeps finding ammunition caches for his storm bolter, if he can find his way through a maze best described as a million million Rubik's Cubes that constantly shift in order to set fire to my city, if he can take down a Daemon Primarch alone and unaided...kill it with fire.
I laughed, hard. That being said, hasn't GW come out and said that fluff written even in the codex is a possible load of bs, lies, and fanboy wetdreams, like itn is with Black Library? It makes me think that almost everything in the GK 'dex is a load of concentrated hyperbole.
I assume everything, everybody says is Hyperbole, especially when its a book about how super awesome my super awesome super soldiers are, and why you should buy them.
Honestly, why would Tzeentch want to get rid of him? He's a perfect lil cow storm of change every single day.
P.S. Love the bond thing thats going on here too. Now I'm imagining Draigo in a suit. And Halle Berry the Sister who some how shows up in the warp to help him.
Kaldor Draigo spends the better part of his time in the warp achieving nothing. Every victory means nothing and its not like the Deamons he kills are embarrassed by the losses because inevitably Draigo is going to die
Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.
There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.
Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.
There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.
Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Unless the daemon's soul is destroyed. Then it's really gone.
Also, Holocaust was available to GKTs, Brother-Captains, Grand Masters and Inquisitors. Hardly "everyone".
Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.
There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.
Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Unless the daemon's soul is destroyed. Then it's really gone.
Also, Holocaust was available to GKTs, Brother-Captains, Grand Masters and Inquisitors. Hardly "everyone".
Lesser daemons don't have souls. They are simply nuggets of their respective gods power made physical. They can be reborn with the same personality as before should the god wish, but ultimately, they are avatars.
Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.
There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.
Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Except the fluff for the power actually states that whatever is destroyed by Holocaust can never come back.
Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.
There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.
Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Except the fluff for the power actually states that whatever is destroyed by Holocaust can never comeback.
I am talking about regular banishment.
Holocaust would mean that said lesser daemon's death would not result in the power used in it's creation returning to it's god.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the emperor which is....basically himself?
Seaward wrote:
Durza wrote: Going back to the fly image, would you hide from one just because it buzzed a bit?
I'd give serious thought to killing it if it burned my house down seven or eight times. Yeah, insurance keeps slapping it right back up, but it's still fething annoying.
You two made me laugh. it hurt when i did.
I might as well read this fluff to see if it is as bad as it seems. because knowing Wards reputation as being a worse writer than me; and seeing his accomplishments spread out on Lexicanum(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo#.TofcWXLHMrl) i am leaning towards the character being a fanboys wet dream of having his spank material rubber-stamped by the BL. Will hold official judgment though.
iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
iproxtaco wrote:
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine. Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.
iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
Excellent phrased.
im2randomghgh wrote:Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Why do you think so? Deamons banished go back to the Warp, and have to wait a certain time. Deamons destoryed are just that. Gods do not create Deamons but use them. The Warp/the emotions create deamons/creatures of the warp including the gods themselve.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dark Scipio wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Seaward wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
Excellent phrased.
im2randomghgh wrote:Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.
Why do you think so? Deamons banished go back to the Warp, and have to wait a certain time. Deamons destoryed are just that. Gods do not create Deamons but use them. The Warp/the emotions create deamons/creatures of the warp including the gods themselve.
Seaward wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine. Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.
But they have to fight. A Primarch doenst Auto.-win. Read Fulgrim against the Avatar. Custdodes even seem to be capable of fighting Primarchs. The best hero of the Grey Knights against a weakend Primarch is almost the same.
iproxtaco wrote:He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
There does seem to be a general feeling on these forums that a Primarch ascending to Daemonhood should just make him stronger without negative side affects.
Seaward wrote:It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine. Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.
It's possible that Mortarion wasn't at full strength, much like Magnus in 'Battle for the Fang'.
iproxtaco wrote: He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine.
Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine, and this 'Primarch' is a Daemon, the very enemy that all Grey Knights, and particularly Draigo excel at fighting and killing.
Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.
No, it wouldn't, since Kharn is not a Grey Knight and The Khan is not a Daemon. The comparison fails epically.
iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.
The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict
Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.
iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.
You're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling. Grey Knights don't gain advantages when fighitng Daemons? Lolwut? They have the equipment, the training, and the skills. Their souls are literally anathema to them. They absolutely gain an advantage over Daemons.
The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict
They don't contradict. Grey Knights don't purge all of their emotions, that's idiotic, quite simply. They're psycho conditioned to be able to control themselves, their souls are painful to Daemons, that's why they aren't affected. Their copious amounts of anti-Daemon wards and runes implanted into their amour and their bodies help.
Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.
iproxtaco wrote:
Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine, and this 'Primarch' is a Daemon, the very enemy that all Grey Knights, and particularly Draigo excel at fighting and killing.
Do you consider the concept of Primarchs suspect? I'm not sure why it requires scare quotes.
Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine either, that's certainly true. But he's also not a Primarch. You also need to start recognizing the important difference between a true daemon - against whom stuff like knowing its true name would matter - and a Daemon Prince/Primarch.
No, it wouldn't, since Kharn is not a Grey Knight and The Khan is not a Daemon. The comparison fails epically.
I'm getting the strong impression that you believe Grey Knights simply can't be defeated. I'm starting to understand why you fight so hard to get Draigo accepted as anything more than atrocious fluff.
iproxtaco wrote: Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine, and this 'Primarch' is a Daemon, the very enemy that all Grey Knights, and particularly Draigo excel at fighting and killing.
Do you consider the concept of Primarchs suspect? I'm not sure why it requires scare quotes.
Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine either, that's certainly true. But he's also not a Primarch. You also need to start recognizing the important difference between a true daemon - against whom stuff like knowing its true name would matter - and a Daemon Prince/Primarch.
Still a Daemon, like it or not. Psy-bolts, sorcery, Nemesis Force Weapons, Aegis, etc. all still work on a Daemon Prince. You need to start recognizing that Draigo is the best of the best, and that defeating an already weakened Daemon Primarch, whilst significant, isn't fluff breakingly bad.
No, it wouldn't, since Kharn is not a Grey Knight and The Khan is not a Daemon. The comparison fails epically.
I'm getting the strong impression that you believe Grey Knights simply can't be defeated. I'm starting to understand why you fight so hard to get Draigo accepted as anything more than atrocious fluff.
The comparison is still flawed. Draigo is a Grey Knight, Mortarion is a Daemon, so, Draigo gains all of his advantages over Mortarion, a Daemon. Kharn is a Space Marine, The Khan is a Primarch, so, Kharn gains no advantages against a Primarch like Draigo would over a Daemon. By all means, if you refuse to see any sense anything I've said then back out and don't respond, won't bother me at all.
iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.
You're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling. Grey Knights don't gain advantages when fighitng Daemons? Lolwut? They have the equipment, the training, and the skills. Their souls are literally anathema to them. They absolutely gain an advantage over Daemons.
The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict
They don't contradict. Grey Knights don't purge all of their emotions, that's idiotic, quite simply. They're psycho conditioned to be able to control themselves, their souls are painful to Daemons, that's why they aren't affected. Their copious amounts of anti-Daemon wards and runes implanted into their amour and their bodies help.
Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.
Yes, it is like that.
Where on earth are you pulling this from? Their souls are anathema to them? The new codex states they are powerful accomplished psykers and that makes them the equivalent of such. They are not nulls, the only thing they have is a grim determination and duty towards the Emperor and apparentlly use psychic abilities to give them protection in the new stuff .
Having the training, equipment and skills does not suddenly make you able to look at daemons and one shot them, it means your prepared and are able to fight them effectively. That is all
I do not suddenly have the ability to look at Elephants and kill them instantaneously just because I have the equipment, skills and knowledge on how to hunt them.
Same principle applies here
Also I don't understand how its idiotic to purge yourself of emotions when fighting Chaos, considering Chaos thrives off and manipulates these emotions?
I was always under the impression that their true resistance came from pure determination, selfless and utter belief in the Emperor and sternest discipline possible brought on by a harsh training regmine. Why would people with this kind of training ever take the time to carve a name into a daemons heart, stick a daemon head mantle on the wall for boasting purposes or feel sadness to the point where you bring back comrades from the dead.
Was all in the old background, must've missed the part in the new background where suddenly immunity to Chaos comes from magic Hocus Pocus nonsense, instead of intense discipline. My bad
All justifiable now right
Asuron wrote:stick a daemon head mantle on the wall for boasting purposes
Possibly to imprison it, since Grey Knights generally seem to struggle to do that.
feel sadness to the point where you bring back comrades from the dead.
Possibly because they are a brotherhood, afterall, and if the man believes it was his fault that they died, then he will be upset about it even if he tries to control his emotions.
iproxtaco wrote: Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.
Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.
Because he's a great character.
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".
Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.
You're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling. Grey Knights don't gain advantages when fighitng Daemons? Lolwut? They have the equipment, the training, and the skills. Their souls are literally anathema to them. They absolutely gain an advantage over Daemons.
The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict
They don't contradict. Grey Knights don't purge all of their emotions, that's idiotic, quite simply. They're psycho conditioned to be able to control themselves, their souls are painful to Daemons, that's why they aren't affected. Their copious amounts of anti-Daemon wards and runes implanted into their amour and their bodies help.
Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them. Things don't work like that in this universe.
Yes, it is like that.
Where on earth are you pulling this from? Their souls are anathema to them? The new codex states they are powerful accomplished psykers and that makes them the equivalent of such. They are not nulls, the only thing they have is a grim determination and duty towards the Emperor and apparentlly use psychic abilities to give them protection in the new stuff .
"A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to the creatures of the Warp" - Page 7 Yes, that's right, their very presence hurt their chosen enemy.
Having the training, equipment and skills does not suddenly make you able to look at daemons and one shot them, it means your prepared and are able to fight them effectively. That is all I do not suddenly have the ability to look at Elephants and kill them instantaneously just because I have the equipment, skills and knowledge on how to hunt them. Same principle applies here
Not one shot them. Fight them effectively? Absolutely. A Grey Knight's experience, skills, equipment, and training, give them advantages over Daemons. They're stupidly good at fighting them. If you had the skills, equipment and knowledge to hunt Elephants then yes, you would have advantages over the Elephant.
Also I don't understand how its idiotic to purge yourself of emotions when fighting Chaos, considering Chaos thrives off and manipulates these emotions? I was always under the impression that their true resistance came from pure determination, selfless and utter belief in the Emperor and sternest discipline possible brought on by a harsh training regmine. Why would people with this kind of training ever take the time to carve a name into a daemons heart, stick a daemon head mantle on the wall for boasting purposes or feel sadness to the point where you bring back comrades from the dead.
Purging yourself of emotions is idiotic. Determination and faith are both weapons in the Grey Knight's arsenal, even you say that, so why take those weapons away? A regular Space Marine has the same qualities, yet there are plenty of Chaos Marines. The carving of a name onto a Daemons heart is stupid, no arguments there.
Was all in the old background, must've missed the part in the new background where suddenly immunity to Chaos comes from magic Hocus Pocus nonsense, instead of intense discipline. My bad All justifiable now right
You must have skimmed the page. A great deal of discipline is required from an aspirant, it's key to their survival.
Grey Knights have been killing primarchs since literally their first appearance (first battle of Armageddon: Angron).
Learn your 40k history.
That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.
If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.
You can crack wise once you're actually right.
Certainly not. But those 100 Grey Knight Terminators were fighting Angron, who is noted to be more combat oriented than Mortarion, and no less than 12 Bloodthirsters, and likely hordes of Daemonic minions and Chaos Space Marines. And this was while Angron was rested, and not after he had just killed 100 other Grey Knights.
iproxtaco wrote:
Certainly not. But those 100 Grey Knight Terminators were fighting Angron, who is noted to be more combat oriented than Mortarion, and no less than 12 Bloodthirsters, and likely hordes of Daemonic minions and Chaos Space Marines. And this was while Angron was rested, and not after he had just killed 100 other Grey Knights.
Let's also not forget that Logan Grimnar, his Great Company, and literally every other Imperial asset on Armageddon were all committed to that particular fight as well.
I love this, "combat oriented" business, by the way. Which Primarchs, pray tell, do you think were pansies in a dust-up? Out of the twenty created from the Emperor's own genes to conquer the galaxy, which ones didn't know how to hold a power sword? They're all pretty good at what they do. Lorgar, who was considered the "weakest" at the time, had zero difficulty and expended no apparent effort beating hundreds of Space Marines to death at the Drop Site Massacre.
iproxtaco wrote:
Certainly not. But those 100 Grey Knight Terminators were fighting Angron, who is noted to be more combat oriented than Mortarion, and no less than 12 Bloodthirsters, and likely hordes of Daemonic minions and Chaos Space Marines. And this was while Angron was rested, and not after he had just killed 100 other Grey Knights.
Let's also not forget that Logan Grimnar, his Great Company, and literally every other Imperial asset on Armageddon were all committed to that particular fight as well.
Although they weren't fighting Angron and his pose. The Grey Knights fought alone, whilst the Daemons and Chaos Marines likely had no qualms who they killed.
I love this, "combat oriented" business, by the way. Which Primarchs, pray tell, do you think were pansies in a dust-up? Out of the twenty created from the Emperor's own genes to conquer the galaxy, which ones didn't know how to hold a power sword? They're all pretty good at what they do. Lorgar, who was considered the "weakest" at the time, had zero difficulty and expended no apparent effort beating hundreds of Space Marines to death at the Drop Site Massacre.
They all had their strong points. Lorgar was a preacher, and a scholar, Magnus had his psychic powers, Guilliman was a politician and tactician. Angron was the combat oriented Primarch. Wading into battle with a pair of axes was what he did best out of them all.
iproxtaco wrote:
They all had their strong points. Lorgar was a preacher, and a scholar, Magnus had his psychic powers, Guilliman was a politician and tactician. Angron was the combat oriented Primarch. Wading into battle with a pair of axes was what he did best out of them all.
Michael Jordan's probably the best to ever play the game, but that doesn't mean Kobe Bryant's easy to beat. Individual mortals have never stood even the whisper of a chance at taking on a Primarch alone - until Draigo. If you believe the gap between Angron's combat ability and Mortarion's is about 99 Terminators, so be it. I think it's as ludicrous as five Guardsmen taking down Terminators with nothing more than bubble gum and moxy, but even Abnett has his off days.
iproxtaco wrote:
They all had their strong points. Lorgar was a preacher, and a scholar, Magnus had his psychic powers, Guilliman was a politician and tactician. Angron was the combat oriented Primarch. Wading into battle with a pair of axes was what he did best out of them all.
Michael Jordan's probably the best to ever play the game, but that doesn't mean Kobe Bryant's easy to beat. Individual mortals have never stood even the whisper of a chance at taking on a Primarch alone - until Draigo. If you believe the gap between Angron's combat ability and Mortarion's is about 99 Terminators, so be it. I think it's as ludicrous as five Guardsmen taking down Terminators with nothing more than bubble gum and moxy, but even Abnett has his off days.
You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.
iproxtaco wrote:You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.
Where is this "weakened" gak coming from?
Nowhere in the Grey Knights codex is Mortarion even implied to be at anything but full strength. Sure, you can assume killing the previous Supreme Grand Master weakened Mortarion, it is still just that: An assumption.
And it not specifying how "beaten and bloody" Draigo was is another flaw, since it gives the impression he wasn't.
That said, I don't mind Draigo beating Mortarion in principle, honestly. Ka'Bhanda, who fought and even bested Sanguinius once, has been beaten by mortals for instance. An'ggrath was also banished by an Inquisitor Lord when they fought. So it is possibly for mortals to fight these very powerful beings in single combat, if the mortal is very exceptional, and generally they are also part of the Ordo Malleus, who specialise in fighting Daemons.
I do think that Mortarion's banishment at the hands of Draigo could have been written to make his loss seem more dignified though.
iproxtaco wrote:
You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless.
Hi, Pot. My name's Kettle.
Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly,
He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch
Noted where? I'd love a fluff citation, but I doubt you can provide one.
Incidentally, read that passage in Draigo's fluff again. There is absolutely zero mention of Mortarion being weakened. You're assuming he is, unless you can prove otherwise beyond mere conjecture.
in a surprise attack
I'm fairly certain this took place in the middle of a battle. The attack couldn't have been all that surprising.
that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.
It doesn't detail anything at all. It's a single sentence. You're jumping to a lot of conclusions, same as everybody else.
iproxtaco wrote:You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.
Where is this "weakened" gak coming from?
Nowhere in the Grey Knights codex is Mortarion even implied to be at anything but full strength. Sure, you can assume killing the previous Supreme Grand Master weakened Mortarion, it is still just that: An assumption.
Not everything has to be written word for word in black and white. Things can be derived and reasoned. Mortarion had just face and overcome the previous Supreme Grand Master, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume Mortarion hadn't just arrived from relaxed weekend getaway.
And it not specifying how "beaten and bloody" Draigo was is another flaw, since it gives the impression he wasn't.
It says "ultimately". Whatever happened after Draigo attacked, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Mortarion fought back.
That said, I don't mind Draigo beating Mortarion in principle, honestly. Ka'Bhanda, who fought and even bested Sanguinius once, has been beaten by mortals for instance. An'ggrath was also banished by an Inquisitor Lord when they fought. So it is possibly for mortals to fight these very powerful beings in single combat, if the mortal is very exceptional, and generally they are also part of the Ordo Malleus, who specialise in fighting Daemons.
I do think that Mortarion's banishment at the hands of Draigo could have been written to make his loss seem more dignified though.
Thawn also defeats Ku'gath. He gets eaten and then tears his way out of the the Great Unclean One's stomach.
The last part I agree with. Mat Ward is consistently bad with his writing style.
Seaward wrote:That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.
If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.
You can crack wise once you're actually right.
Actually you are wrong. 99 terminators fought against the 12 bloodthirsters and numberless lesser daemons.
1 Brother-Captain fought Angron, and beat him
Draigo is, logically, better than 1 Brother-Captain.
YOU can crack wise once you're actually right. Go sit in the corner, your lack of knowledge combined with inappropriately high confidence is embarrassing.
1 Bro-Cap beat the strongest Daemon Primarch. 1 Supreme Grandmaster (just for you because you might not have elementary school math skills, that is two whole power levels above a BroCap.) beat one of the weaker Daemon Primarchs, who had just killed another Supreme Grandmaster.
And just in case you forgot, the Daemon Primarchs are not even the strongest Daemons that the GK have to fight, and beat. Angron is weaker than the strongest Bloodthirster, An'ggrath, and Mortarion is weaker than the strongest Nurglite daemon.
Seaward wrote:That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.
If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.
You can crack wise once you're actually right.
Actually you are wrong. 99 terminators fought against the 12 bloodthirsters and numberless lesser daemons.
1 Brother-Captain fought Angron, and beat him
Draigo is, logically, better than 1 Brother-Captain.
YOU can crack wise once you're actually right. Go sit in the corner, your lack of knowledge combined with inappropriately high confidence is embarrassing.
That would be a great response if it were true.
Incidentally, I think getting angry about a game of spacemens is the embarrassing part here. But crusade on, rage warrior.
iproxtaco wrote:Not everything has to be written word for word in black and white. Things can be derived and reasoned. Mortarion had just face and overcome the previous Supreme Grand Master, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume Mortarion hadn't just arrived from relaxed weekend getaway.
Sure, you can reason that's what happened, and it would make the passage more bearable, but "reason" and "Draigo" are words that don't go together. You are far more optimistic than me regarding this, and all the more power to you for it.
It says "ultimately". Whatever happened after Draigo attacked, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Mortarion fought back.
It says ultimately Mortarion escaped, yes.
Thawn also defeats Ku'gath. He gets eaten and then tears his way out of the the Great Unclean One's stomach.
The last part I agree with. Mat Ward is consistently bad with his writing style.
Well with Thawn I assumed that he managed that because of his apparent inability to permanently die.
ph34r wrote:1 Bro-Cap beat the strongest Daemon Primarch.
He's not the strongest Daemon Primarch.
And just in case you forgot, the Daemon Primarchs are not even the strongest Daemons that the GK have to fight, and beat. Angron is weaker than the strongest Bloodthirster, An'ggrath, and Mortarion is weaker than the strongest Nurglite daemon.
Ka'Bhanda is the strongest Bloodthirster as of right now, who Sanguinius broke over his knee. Angron is described as the most favored servant of Khorne, and beyond that Corax isn't sure Sanguinius could beat Angron.
ph34r wrote:1 Bro-Cap beat the strongest Daemon Primarch.
He's not the strongest Daemon Primarch.
And just in case you forgot, the Daemon Primarchs are not even the strongest Daemons that the GK have to fight, and beat. Angron is weaker than the strongest Bloodthirster, An'ggrath, and Mortarion is weaker than the strongest Nurglite daemon.
Ka'Bhanda is the strongest Bloodthirster as of right now, who Sanguinius broke over his knee. Angron is described as the most favored servant of Khorne, and beyond that Corax isn't sure Sanguinius could beat Angron.
Well apparently both Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath are both strongest, because the full title is "An'ggrath the Unbound, the Guardian of the Throne of Skulls, Most Favoured of Khorne, Lord of Bloodthirsters and the Deathbringer is the mightiest Bloodthirster yet summoned from the warp, and Khorne's most favoured servant." Perhaps Ka'Bhanda is slightly stronger, but the point is unchanged.
It is irrelevant whether or not a Primarch could beat the greatest Daemon Prince. As evidenced in every GK story that involves combat with one of the many strongest Daemons, the Grey Knights are much more capable of dealing with them than even the primarchs were back in the day.
Hell, Skarbrand, one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, was killed by Dante. Dante isn't a primarch, a GK, or even a psyker or chapter master. He just chopped Skarbrand in half and banished him.
ph34r wrote:Well apparently both Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath are both strongest, because the full title is "An'ggrath the Unbound, the Guardian of the Throne of Skulls, Most Favoured of Khorne, Lord of Bloodthirsters and the Deathbringer is the mightiest Bloodthirster yet summoned from the warp, and Khorne's most favoured servant." Perhaps Ka'Bhanda is slightly stronger, but the point is unchanged.
It's pretty strange. Much of what was said about An'ggrath, is now said about Ka'Bhanda (Could it be possible that Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath are different names for the same Bloodthirster?)
It is irrelevant whether or not a Primarch could beat the greatest Daemon Prince. As evidenced in every GK story that involves combat with one of the many strongest Daemons, the Grey Knights are much more capable of dealing with them than even the primarchs were back in the day
Hell, Skarbrand, one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, was killed by Dante. Dante isn't a primarch, a GK, or even a psyker or chapter master. He just chopped Skarbrand in half and banished him.
I don't really have a problem with Mortarion being banished by a Grey Knight, as I said.
It's mostly just the way it was written, it makes Mortarion come off roughly as threatening as Worf.
Personally, I've always taken the name carving business to be a poncy way of saying he did some fancy banishing. It certainly seems to fit the bill, and its not like this hasn't been done before.
And in my opinion (OPINION), the fight, and Draigo's victory by extension, was solid, but the execution was lacking.
If it had said something along the lines of Mortarion allowing all this to unfold, instead of just getting his ass kicked, it would actually be alright. Generally, I think they left out the part where Mortarion fades away, laughing maniacally at Draigo's failing efforts.
Randomonioum wrote:Personally, I've always taken the name carving business to be a poncy way of saying he did some fancy banishing. It certainly seems to fit the bill, and its not like this hasn't been done before.
It was. When it comes to the daemonic, names are power. Carving the name of the freshly slain Supreme Grand Master onto Mortarion's heart was likely a much better use of the opportunity than Draigo sticking his sword through it. The section mentions that it was a long time before Mortarion was able to re-enter realspace again, even if its not clear whether or not he was banished during the battle.
Randomonioum wrote:And in my opinion (OPINION), the fight, and Draigo's victory by extension, was solid, but the execution was lacking.
That's pretty much Ward's hallmark. Lots of basically good, even great ideas undermined by clumsy writing.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:If it had said something along the lines of Mortarion allowing all this to unfold, instead of just getting his ass kicked, it would actually be alright. Generally, I think they left out the part where Mortarion fades away, laughing maniacally at Draigo's failing efforts.
And that makes the Grey Knights look like Worf instead, in their own codex to boot.
What really should have happened was to just give Draigo help. Honestly, would anybody have complained (Outside of the dedicated 4chan whiners) if Draigo didn't fight Mortarion 1 on 1, but instead lead a squad of his Terminators in retaliation? It makes zero sense that the leader of an organization as cold and merciless as the Grey Knights would have a "duel" with a guy as feared as Mortarion. You want to assure victory in that sort of instance; Aurelian had his brothers surround him when he faltered against Angron.
Durza wrote: Going back to the fly image, would you hide from one just because it buzzed a bit?
I'd give serious thought to killing it if it burned my house down seven or eight times. Yeah, insurance keeps slapping it right back up, but it's still fething annoying.
I dunno... I think if a fly burned my house down seven or eight times I would not even attempt to kill it for fear of angering it. I would give it biggest pile of nice tasty feces I could find to hopefully distract it long enough for me to escape. Then I would move far far away and pray that Draigofly never found me.
iproxtaco wrote:The comparison is still flawed. Draigo is a Grey Knight, Mortarion is a Daemon, so, Draigo gains all of his advantages over Mortarion, a Daemon. Kharn is a Space Marine, The Khan is a Primarch, so, Kharn gains no advantages against a Primarch like Draigo would over a Daemon.
Primarchs still bleed don't they? If it bleeds then Kharn can kill it.
iproxtaco wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.
Where is this "weakened" gak coming from?
Nowhere in the Grey Knights codex is Mortarion even implied to be at anything but full strength. Sure, you can assume killing the previous Supreme Grand Master weakened Mortarion, it is still just that: An assumption.
Not everything has to be written word for word in black and white. Things can be derived and reasoned. Mortarion had just face and overcome the previous Supreme Grand Master, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume Mortarion hadn't just arrived from relaxed weekend getaway.
And it not specifying how "beaten and bloody" Draigo was is another flaw, since it gives the impression he wasn't.
It says "ultimately". Whatever happened after Draigo attacked, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Mortarion fought back.
You think it's "reasonable" to assume that Mortarion fought back? It's "reasonable" to fight back against a guy who is so much stronger than you that he can singlehandedly kill your entire bodyguard then hold you down while he carves a rather long multisyllabic name into your heart? I think it's much more reasonable to run away as fast as you can and maybe go home and cry a little bit before offering a prayer of thanks to Papa Nurgle that you were able to escape at all. The "ultimately he escaped" part is to reassure the reader that Mortarion is in fact still alive and not permanently holocausted by Kaldor badass Draigo.
I see a lot of "Mortarion was weakened and not at full strength and it was a surprise attack!" and "the chaos gods could easily kill Draigo except they just don't feel like it because he's so insignificant, and also they're just toying with him anyway because they want to show him how tragic his existence so they just fix everything he breaks and this makes him sad - mission accomplished!" Folks seem to be inventing all kinds of justifications for Draigo's ridiculous exploits, but that's not how his fluff actually reads. You're bending over backwards to invent reasons why the fluff doesn't really mean what it actually says. What about the most obvious explanation - Draigo is able to do all this because he's really just that awesome. Really, what hasn't he been able to accomplish short of actually killing a chaos god? Anything?
Woah, I actually read codex:GKs, and was pretty alarmed by some of the ridiculousness of what they came up with.
I take back my disbelief about Draigo: the whole codex is riddled with "{1-100} GKs vs a bajillion demons, and somehow the GKs come out on top 'cause they're the bestest" A bit disappointing, even as far as 40k hyperboles go :/
I never saw 2nd edition GKs, but the 3rd edition Chapter Approved ones were very appropriate (very rare, good, but overpriced except against demons), and the Demon Hunters codex was a bit limited, but not so stupidly over the top...
The OTT-ness of the codex is because it's new as a stand-alone army though. They want to show why they should be used by themselves and awesome battles were what they though was the best way to do it. Having Ward write the fluff didn't help much either...
spiralingcadaver wrote:I never saw 2nd edition GKs, but the 3rd edition Chapter Approved ones were very appropriate (very rare, good, but overpriced except against demons), and the Demon Hunters codex was a bit limited, but not so stupidly over the top...
While it may be fluffy to have them overpriced except against daemons, it's not a good example of game balance. Remember that most people don't play daemons; it's not very fun to play an army that's supposed to be bad against the majority of other armies.
To have a balanced Grey Knights codex, it should have a slight advantage against Daemons while being average against pretty much ever other codex. That way, you have the least number of unbalanced matchups, and the one that is unbalanced is only slightly unbalanced to be more fluffy. Unfortunately, judging from the reactions, Ward forgot the "slight advantage" part...
Add this line to the bottom of Draigo's fluff piece, and move on.
"A blasted rock circles a dying star. On it stands a lonely sentinel clutching a broken sword. Behind his silver helm wild eyes stare sightlessly into the heavens. In his mind Grand Master Draigo fights over and over an enemy he can never conquer. In his ears echoes the endless laughter of thirsting gods. "
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Add this line to the bottom of Draigo's fluff piece, and move on.
"A blasted rock circles a dying star. On it stands a lonely sentinel clutching a broken sword. Behind his silver helm wild eyes stare sightlessly into the heavens. In his mind Grand Master Draigo fights over and over an enemy he can never conquer. In his ears echoes the endless laughter of thirsting gods. "
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Add this line to the bottom of Draigo's fluff piece, and move on.
"A blasted rock circles a dying star. On it stands a lonely sentinel clutching a broken sword. Behind his silver helm wild eyes stare sightlessly into the heavens. In his mind Grand Master Draigo fights over and over an enemy he can never conquer. In his ears echoes the endless laughter of thirsting gods. "
OR we could lynch Matt Ward
Why not both?
We can fix the mary sueness AND deal with a hack writer.
It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
This is true.
We still have to be sure though...now where's that rope...
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
This is also true.
Upgrade rope to chains. With spikes.
And Ward's crunch is definitely not as unbalanced as the Space Wolves codex.
How could that be? It's not as if the SW codex had a 25pt unit that has EW, FNP, rerolls to hit against MC and thing with T5+, doesn't give KP and can take any weapon. That would be ridiculous...
I am certain that if the warp truly exists, all of our combined nerd-rage and wrathful hate can manifest into a daemon who will come into being specifically to crush Ward's skull.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This Daemon will have a neckbeard.
Henners91 wrote:I am certain that if the warp truly exists, all of our combined nerd-rage and wrathful hate can manifest into a daemon who will come into being specifically to crush Ward's skull.
That Chaos gods are usually in the habit of rewarding those who make them powerful.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
I've never understood the rage about librarian dreadnoughts either, what's so damn bad about that? Seriously?
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
I've never understood the rage about librarian dreadnoughts either, what's so damn bad about that? Seriously?
Its a dreadnaught that has a force weapon and has a 12" jump move, basically giving him an 18" killzone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Henners91 wrote:I am certain that if the warp truly exists, all of our combined nerd-rage and wrathful hate can manifest into a daemon who will come into being specifically to crush Ward's skull.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This Daemon will have a neckbeard.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
I've never understood the rage about librarian dreadnoughts either, what's so damn bad about that? Seriously?
Its a dreadnaught that has a force weapon and has a 12" jump move, basically giving him an 18" killzone.
So? Normal Dreadnoughts have S10 weapons and can Drop Pod. You can dodge a Librarian Dreadnought, but a pod is going to drop roughly where the guy who owns it wants it to go.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
I've never understood the rage about librarian dreadnoughts either, what's so damn bad about that? Seriously?
Its a dreadnaught that has a force weapon and has a 12" jump move, basically giving him an 18" killzone.
So? Normal Dreadnoughts have S10 weapons and can Drop Pod. You can dodge a Librarian Dreadnought, but a pod is going to drop roughly where the guy who owns it wants it to go.
Yes, but there a chance to run away from/destroy it. He can't charge on the turn he arrives, so you can either
a) Get away from him
b)Shoot the crap outta with meltas, lascannons etc.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
I've never understood the rage about librarian dreadnoughts either, what's so damn bad about that? Seriously?
Its a dreadnaught that has a force weapon and has a 12" jump move, basically giving him an 18" killzone.
So? Normal Dreadnoughts have S10 weapons and can Drop Pod. You can dodge a Librarian Dreadnought, but a pod is going to drop roughly where the guy who owns it wants it to go.
Yes, but there a chance to run away from/destroy it. He can't charge on the turn he arrives, so you can either
a) Get away from him
b)Shoot the crap outta with meltas, lascannons etc.
Same applies to a Librarian Furioso. It can't charge you first turn unless you screw up, so you have time to shoot it.
Durza wrote:It'll take a lot more than just that to fix the Mary Sueness. And Ward writes good rules, he should just have someone to edit them so they're understandable, not be allowed to name anything, and NEVER be let anywhere near the fluff.
Uhmmm...he made FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS.
He's not allowed to touch rules either. He's a game-breaker.
Especially WHFB
I've never understood the rage about librarian dreadnoughts either, what's so damn bad about that? Seriously?
Its a dreadnaught that has a force weapon and has a 12" jump move, basically giving him an 18" killzone.
So? Normal Dreadnoughts have S10 weapons and can Drop Pod. You can dodge a Librarian Dreadnought, but a pod is going to drop roughly where the guy who owns it wants it to go.
Yes, but there a chance to run away from/destroy it. He can't charge on the turn he arrives, so you can either
a) Get away from him
b)Shoot the crap outta with meltas, lascannons etc.
Same applies to a Librarian Furioso. It can't charge you first turn unless you screw up, so you have time to shoot it.
And he could hide behind walls...out of curiosity, how much is a Librarian Dread? Is it more than a normal dread + Pod?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... Can any other psykers fly? Chaos can't without wings, but I'm not sure about Imperials.
Durza wrote:Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... Can any other psykers fly? Chaos can't without wings, but I'm not sure about Imperials.
Yes psychic flight is way far fetched for the super realistic setting of 40k.
Durza wrote:Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... Can any other psykers fly? Chaos can't without wings, but I'm not sure about Imperials.
Well.
Yeah.
Zoanthropes float all the time.
And psychic flight is a speficic application of the "Lift" psychic power in Dark Heresy: Ascension.
The concept of flight at all is ridiculous now that I think about it. Planes should not work.... Maybe, because we believe in planes, they fly.... Maybe we are orks....
The libby dreadnoughts don't fly, they jump...? Anyway, they get to choose from the list of blood angels psychic powers, any blood angels psyker gets access to red bull.
) Malcador died before the Emperor was put into the Golden Throne
Of course it could be my unending hate for Wards fluff....
