Most people think that the imperium is going to fall, but really is it. The great threat of the Tyranids is doomed as the necrons dont want pesky bugs running over their galaxy. The tau will be masacred by the Tyrandis before the crons get 'em. The dark eldar will destroy the remenants of the eldar whilst they weaken the dark eldar so they can be destroyed by the necrons and space marines. The orks will be jealous of all the fighting and go to war with everyone and get killed by the crons before the metal warriors move onto chaos and then there will be one epic clash between the imperium the orks and the crons who will win?
Yeah, because the Tyranids are going to go away just because the zombie robots don't like them (/sarcasm). It took the destruction of hundreds of planets to divert a hive fleet, and while the Necrons have a machine which can do that (*facepalm*) they can't do it too much without causing massive chain reactions.
I'm not aware of the Dark Eldar being particularly eager to kill the Eldar either.
I also don't appreciate you treating destroying Chaos as a menial chore the Necrons would have to do before moving on to play with the big boys. Whatever has been done to them gameplay wise, they're still a force to be reckoned with, and to kill them the Necrons would have to attack what is essentially the best defence in the galaxy, the Eye of Terror. For all that it stops the CSM attacking properly, it's also virtually impossible to attack, not to mention fighting there would give the Traitors access to infinite daemons, daemon princes, free manipulation of space and time if their god is in a good mood, and any daemon primarchs that had nothing better to do for the day.
Durza wrote:Yeah, because the Tyranids are going to go away just because the zombie robots don't like them (/sarcasm). It took the destruction of hundreds of planets to divert a hive fleet, and while the Necrons have a machine which can do that (*facepalm*) they can't do it too much without causing massive chain reactions.
I'm not aware of the Dark Eldar being particularly eager to kill the Eldar either.
I also don't appreciate you treating destroying Chaos as a menial chore the Necrons would have to do before moving on to play with the big boys. Whatever has been done to them gameplay wise, they're still a force to be reckoned with, and to kill them the Necrons would have to attack what is essentially the best defence in the galaxy, the Eye of Terror. For all that it stops the CSM attacking properly, it's also virtually impossible to attack, not to mention fighting there would give the Traitors access to infinite daemons, daemon princes, free manipulation of space and time if their god is in a good mood, and any daemon primarchs that had nothing better to do for the day.
And of course, the Necrons are Alpharius anyway.
What Durza said. Chaos is a big deal, anyway you slice it.
Captain Knight wrote:Most people think that the imperium is going to fall, but really is it. The great threat of the Tyranids is doomed as the necrons dont want pesky bugs running over their galaxy. The tau will be masacred by the Tyrandis before the crons get 'em. The dark eldar will destroy the remenants of the eldar whilst they weaken the dark eldar so they can be destroyed by the necrons and space marines. The orks will be jealous of all the fighting and go to war with everyone and get killed by the crons before the metal warriors move onto chaos and then there will be one epic clash between the imperium the orks and the crons who will win?
Much in this post is.... pretty incorrect.
GW will never progress the story to that point, so we won't ever see the Imperium fall, but realistically (if you can use that word to describe anything in Warhammer 40K) the Imperium is threatened by so many powerful enemies that eventually it will be destroyed. No single foe will destroy it, but the combined threat of the Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, and Chaos, not to mention internal rebellion, will slowly bring about its end. Obviously those foes aren't going to unite against the Imperium in some sort of "Legion of Doom"-esque pact.
The Eldar and Dark Eldar are not enemies, they aren't even particularly antagonistic toward each other. It's a common misconception carried over from WHFB. And the Harlequins are on both lists, so Cegorach (the only surviving, unbroken, and uncaptured eldar god) doesn't care. None of them want to be eaten by slaneesh. The DE's plan is to outlive it, the Craftworld and Exodites have made their own afterlife (in the infinity circuits. But they are not any more antagonistic to each other than the Inquisition and the Space Marines are to each other(ie they fight each other sometimes, but aren't enemies by default)
CuddlySquig wrote:
Realistically in universe, it would break apart into smaller empires like the Roman Empire rather than come crashing down in one big heap.
This.
Orior Imperium vs Occidens Impirum.
Would be pretty cool. The Orior Imperium would speak Greek, too, which would be badass.
CuddlySquig wrote:
Realistically in universe, it would break apart into smaller empires like the Roman Empire rather than come crashing down in one big heap.
This.
Orior Imperium vs Occidens Impirum.
Would be pretty cool. The Orior Imperium would speak Greek, too, which would be badass.
Been There, done 'dat
There's this little-known bit of fluff outlined on the BRB, the Nova Terra Interregnum. The whole Segmentum Pacificus seceded after the Ecclesiarchy attempted to impose a fully theocratic regime. It was stomped back into compliance, but the splinter empire lasted for at least 900 years.
No mention of them using greek (instead of latin) for their version of high gothic. But It'd be undeniably cool.
Frankly, this is one of those parts of the fluff I'd love to see expanded in the future. I've even considered getting an army of Nova Terra rebel guard!
Captain Knight wrote:Most people think that the imperium is going to fall, but really is it.
First point: GW will never advance the story line to a conclusion. If, hypothetically speaking, it were to naturally continue at its current course, the Imperium will fail.
The great threat of the Tyranids is doomed as the necrons dont want pesky bugs running over their galaxy.
The latest Tyranid Hive Fleet required a monumental expendature of resources for the Imperium to simply divert, and it's still very much a threat.
The tau will be masacred by the Tyrandis before the crons get 'em.
Probably.
The dark eldar will destroy the remenants of the eldar whilst they weaken the dark eldar so they can be destroyed by the necrons and space marines.
The Dark Eldar don't fight the Craftworld Eldar. This is not WHFB. They co-exist and have little to do with each other for the most part. Besides, the Dark Eldar are apparently growing in size and power, and they're based in a realm that is nigh unassailable. So no, this is never going to happen.
The orks will be jealous of all the fighting and go to war with everyone and get killed by the crons
It seems that you're overestimating how powerful the Necrons are, whilst assuming things that should be common knowledge. The Orks are not unified. Each and every Warboss chooses what his little Waaagh! does, they do not make decisions as a race, so there's no getting jealous and attacking the other races like you think. As for the Necrons, well, they aren't unified either, far from it. They may generally have the same purpose, to rule the other races like they once did, but like the Orks, each leader or Overlord makes the decisions as to what his army of mindless automotons does, and each has his own motives before any unified goal. You won't see the Necrons running around exterminating entire races and factions willy-nilly.
before the metal warriors move onto chaos
Good luck with that. Chaos is the single largest threat that the Imperium faces. The Chaos Gods have orchestrated galaxy changing events despite only taking a metaphorical glance at the material world to do so. The no longer unified Necrons aren't going to be able to destroy something they have literally no understanding of.
and then there will be one epic clash between the imperium the orks and the crons who will win?
I though the Orks were destroyed in your time-line? So it's a battle between the Necrons and curiously, the Imperium, a faction that has somehow made it through wars between the Necrons and every other race without even a single mention. Right, this wont happen. Like many have already said, there will be no single power that spells the Imperium's inevitable downfall. They'll all be picking away at it until there's nothing left but a couple of independent human factions.
The Dark Eldar aren't trying to kill off the Eldar.
They think they're quaint and they want the eldar to keep on chugging for their souls taste good with ketchup.
Brother Coa wrote:Aldo our time now is dark and uncertain - we know this.
Who the hell is Aldo?
And yes, it will fall. With the long-term nerfing of the Necrons in the setting, it will either be to Chaos or the Tyranids.
My bet's on Chaos, though I don't thing they need to mount a huge, unstoppable Black Crusade to make it happen, as the Imperium's rotting slowly from within.
I like to think that the Emperor conceived his earthly realm to act as a flood barrier against Chaos. Not that things are going exactly as planned, though.
Void__Dragon wrote:I think people are taking Coa a little more seriously than he takes himself, honestly.
I wasn't sure at first, but I am pretty positive that he doesn't actually believe a lot of the things he says.
I kind of agree, it's kind of hard for someone to actually be that... delusional.
HOWEVER, if you haven't been around for a while seeing him spew his crazy on a regular basis in numerous places will simply assume he's a beligerant nutter screaming stubbornly about how awesome the imperium is.
I mean he is a nutter screaming about how awesome the imperium is, but you have to take him with a pinch of salt
The best way to take him is to throw salt in his eyes? Ok then. Followed by headlock or uppercut? (I jest...)
The Imperium will never fall due to GW not wanting to end the game, but it's getting steadily harder to believe the 'We're dying! Apart from Draigo and the Sanguinor and Calgar and Creed and Marbo and... ...and Khan we have no heroes to fight for us! All is lost!'
The imperium, as it seems, may fall, but let's be honest and say they have a chance in winning. The eldar are dying anyway, so they won't win. Chaos has a larger chance that the imperium, about equal to the necrons (with fact the necrons outnumber the imperium if all the rest survive) Tau will probably ally with the imperium in the end, tyranids will lose, almost definately. Dark eldar? Now way. It's a clash between tau, imperium, chaos and necrons in the final battle and I just hope the necrons win.
If they ever decide to finish the story, they will probably resurrect the Emperor via Sensei. But before resurrection he will probably do something bad ass in the Warp ( not killing Chaos Gods but maybe close the Eye of Terror ). After that he will just start another Great Crusade with more Space Marines then ever, Primarch will return, the ones that are wounded will be healed again and Imperium will rule the galaxy.
That is, of course, one way of finishing the story if they ever decide to.
Explain to me how Dark Eldar will destroy the Eldar?
If anything Dark Eldar and Eldar arnt really enemies, they basically leave each other alone for the most part. Eldar will only interfere with Dark Eldar if they see some fate happening that will bring the craftworlds in danger.
As far as Dark Eldar being able to occupy Craftworlds/Exodite worlds, and fighting Eldar fleets and armies head on, I dont think that will happen.
I also think that Eldar outnumber Dark Eldar by a large amount.
To most intents the Imperium fell 10,000 years ago when the Emporer was confined in the Golden Throne. All the time since has been a retreat from the Emporer's ideals and a gradual decline of power.
black templar wrote:I would say the imperium and Eldar will teamup for a final defence and the others races will launch a full on assault on terra.
I doubt that very much, most of the xenos goals are incompatible with each other.
Tau really don't want to be ruled by necrons, nor chaos, and they certainly don't want to be eaten by the 'nids.
The Necrons awoke to fight the 'nids, and they want to take over and/or destroy all other living things in the galaxy, and their pipe dream of seperating the materium from the warp, is in direct conflict with chaos.
The 'nids just eat what is in their path. They can be diverted, but that is difficult at best, and they can't be controlled).
Chaos obviously wants nothing to do with the Necron, they can't really subvert the tau all that well, they don't want the 'nids eating everyone (no more power for their gods).
Orks just want to fight. In many ways they are like the 'nids, a near mindless force of destruction just with less removing all biomass from the planets. Also they were created to fight the necrons.
Now Imperium/Eldar cooperation is probably the least rare of all the faction coalitions, not common but conceivable.
Armless Failure wrote:
The Necrons awoke to fight the 'nids, and they want to take over and/or destroy all other living things in the galaxy, and their pipe dream of seperating the materium from the warp, is in direct conflict with chaos.
Just to raise issue with this, the Necrons were waking up well in advance of the Nids showing up. The Silent King just returned to try and fight them off so his people can have other fleshy things left to transfer back into.
Regarding the eventual doom of the Imperium, it's pretty much a definite as things stand. While there are rumours of the Emperor's rebirth, it's obvious he will loathe the Imperium as its become. Even if he is reborn, the Imperium will fracture apart in civil war. Which leaves it more vulnerable to the huge list of things which want it dead. Between the Tyranid Hive Fleets (especially with the possibility that Leviathan is just a small fraction of what's yet to show up), the indomitable power of Chaos, the awakening Necron Empire and the general rot present in the Imperium I can't see it surviving much further than it already has.
Naturally though, GW won't let that happen. I'd like to see a future where the Imperium is split between people of the Old Order and people of the New Order should the Emperor wake up, it'd make things interesting to say the least, but I doubt it'd happen.
I think that the Imperium will be shattered eventually all the gaurd,en and space marines will stop and think for a moment
"hummm lets see what are we fighting for, some dead guy on a throne? No, freedom of the imperium? Imerpium's not free anyway, A better place to live? Yes Constant war? maybe. So now what do we do, turn on the imperium and set up a new human empire fighting to defend a worth while home? YES!"
And so the Imperium will fall into disarray and an epic war between the old imperium and the new imperium will follow the remanats will quietly receed away to escape destruction alowing the humans to survive and struggle on in a refurbished galaxy where man no longer decides fate where all the galaxy is ruled by different powers as in the end there are so many different powerfull races that no one can provale.
Well people say GW wont let that happen in a negative way, or so i anticipate it. I really think that none of us would like to see the end of 40k as such a thing would lead your models on a shelf being useless, or GW would end then story when they go broke. All in all, the good thing with 40k is that with the use of some lovely painted figures and terrain you 'live' a sci fi movie that you are starring and that it never ends, what more can you ask from a tabletop game?
Sieggfried wrote:Well people say GW wont let that happen in a negative way, or so i anticipate it. I really think that none of us would like to see the end of 40k as such a thing would lead your models on a shelf being useless, or GW would end then story when they go broke. All in all, the good thing with 40k is that with the use of some lovely painted figures and terrain you 'live' a sci fi movie that you are starring and that it never ends, what more can you ask from a tabletop game?
I do think that while GW shouldn't have the Imperium crumble, it should be put into a serious open challenge. Something like Segmentum Tempestus falling to a Tyranid Hive Fleet, a military coup on Terra that leads to a new Age of Apostasy, the Cadian Sector falls, etc.
Naturally though, GW won't let that happen. I'd like to see a future where the Imperium is split between people of the Old Order and people of the New Order should the Emperor wake up, it'd make things interesting to say the least, but I doubt it'd happen.
I just don't believe they have enough creativity and talent within the company for any major change to the fluff, and besides it wouldn't increase sales all that much anyway, so there's no point in investing in that side of things.
On topic, in real life the Imperium will never fall in the fluff, as others have said it would end a large portion of GW sales and would have to lead to a full scale product line revolution - its just not possible without inventing an entirely new game (light bulb moment XD).
But if I had to personally speculate on what would happen on the future of the Warhammer 40,000 universe based on the current events in said universe (and using my knowledge of history ) I don't think the Imperium would fall entirely for at least another 7000 years. Why's this? The obvious comparison to draw would be between the fall of the late Roman Empire. The situation in the 40k universe looks remarkably (and probably deliberately) similar to the Roman Empire in the year 400ad - coincidence in numbers I think not! Accelerate forward by a factor of 100 years and the Imperium is at a very similar turning point. Basically within a few more years the roman Empire collapsed in on itself largely due to huge external pressures from barbarians (xenos in 40k world) and a lack of income due to a lack of new conquests and administrative issues. However the strong part of the Empire, the eastern part remained for at least another 700 years, so thats what my original projection of the Imperium lasting another 7000 years is based on! LOL!
Captain Knight wrote:But the Imperium is to big to just fall, some humans will survive because it's what we do and so the Imperium may fall but man dosen't.
Doubt it. FW and BL novels give the idea that with the death of the Emperor, all of humanity falls to Chaos which would create a new Eye of Terror the size of the Imperium. FW says that the Chaos gods seek to cause the galaxy and the Warp to become one which would kill everyone but are stopped by the Emp's efforts(IIRC).
To me thats how 40k should end. The galaxy becomes one with the Warp thus killing everyone but with everyone dead, all the daemons and nastiness of the Warp like the Chaos gods die as well. So in the end the Warp becomes calm again just like it was all those uncounted years ago.
Captain Knight wrote:But the Imperium is to big to just fall, some humans will survive because it's what we do and so the Imperium may fall but man dosen't.
Make up your mind then. Are you talking about humanity as a species or the Imperium as a faction? Either way, the Imperium WILL fall, it's a inevitable conclusion that can't be avoided.
black templar wrote:I would say the imperium and Eldar will teamup for a final defence and the others races will launch a full on assault on terra.
Assaulting Terra is pointless and unnecessary. Why attack the heavily defended heart of an Empire when it is easier to whittle away its outer ranges and slowly bleed it of resources. You destroy the Imperium one planet at a time, and slowly beat it back. It won't get stronger as you get closer to the heart, since it's losing its ability to make more ships, vehicles and recruit military forces. By the time the Imperium is driven back to Terra, it won't have defenses worth a crap.
If they ever decide to finish the story, they will probably resurrect the Emperor via Sensei. But before resurrection he will probably do something bad ass in the Warp ( not killing Chaos Gods but maybe close the Eye of Terror ). After that he will just start another Great Crusade with more Space Marines then ever, Primarch will return, the ones that are wounded will be healed again and Imperium will rule the galaxy.
That is, of course, one way of finishing the story if they ever decide to.
10,000 years beyond the 41st after the final war of Terra, at the height of their power, a Tau excavation team ascends a massive structure that looks to have been a once mighty structure.
As drones go about humming through the desert ruins, a team of scientists will climb the ancient steps. Steps that once belonged to what Gues'Va called "The God Emperor."
The throne room's ancient gates destroyed by Chaos in the final battle. His chair will be cataloged, his artifacts taken back for study, his Empire forgotten by history.
Then Aun"viel, God Leader of the Tau Empire, will plant a flag on the throne and do a moon walk around the palace room.
Eventually, at the end of all things, Chaos will reign supreme. This is an inevitability, and nothing that any mortal race, regardless of their iniquity, can prevent. The struggle of the forces of Order only delay the inevitable, they are powerless to prevent it.
The Tau? Doesn't matter if they have a low Warp-presence... at the final stages of the Great Game, matter itself will boil away into the ephemera of the Warp. The Tyranids, bereft of biomass, will simply starve... this is assuming that any survive the utterly limitless hordes of daemons and warp-entities that are now given free reign to come and go as they please once the barrier between the Warp and Realspace is finally, completely destroyed. The Necrons can look forward to eternity as the playthings of daemonic hordes. Final Death would be a release, but one they will be denied.
The Eldar, of course, will simply be consumed by Slaanesh. This is a given. S/he will sup them like nectar and ambrosia.
The Orks? I can see them falling to Nurgle, primarily. Millions, even billions, will of course die in glorious battle with the daemon... but it will be a parasite of some kind, a mold or fungus, that eventually destroys the Ork. Some kind of parasitic, fungal bacteria that replicates along with sporing Orks that then gives rise to Plague-bearer Orks that will spell the doom of Ork-kind. Gork and Mork probably won't notice, really. They don't participate in the goings-on in the Warp so long as other entities don't mess with them, so while a few upstart Daemon Princes and the like might get thumped, I don't see them taking much of an interest in what the Great Four are doing.
When the Emperor dies, He will use His full warp-god powers to restore His physical body to normal. He would then step down from the Throne and lead the Imperium in person once more. So no, the Imperium will never fall. The Imperium Overcomes.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
10,000 years beyond the 41st after the final war of Terra, at the height of their power, a Tau excavation team ascends a massive structure that looks to have been a once mighty structure.
As drones go about humming through the desert ruins, a team of scientists will climb the ancient steps. Steps that once belonged to what Gues'Va called "The God Emperor."
The throne room's ancient gates destroyed by Chaos in the final battle. His chair will be cataloged, his artifacts taken back for study, his Empire forgotten by history.
Then Aun"viel, God Leader of the Tau Empire, will plant a flag on the throne and do a moon walk around the palace room.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
10,000 years beyond the 41st after the final war of Terra, at the height of their power, a Tau excavation team ascends a massive structure that looks to have been a once mighty structure.
As drones go about humming through the desert ruins, a team of scientists will climb the ancient steps. Steps that once belonged to what Gues'Va called "The God Emperor."
The throne room's ancient gates destroyed by Chaos in the final battle. His chair will be cataloged, his artifacts taken back for study, his Empire forgotten by history.
Then Aun"viel, God Leader of the Tau Empire, will plant a flag on the throne and do a moon walk around the palace room.
And what happened when you woke up?
He'd still be
Spoiler:
fapping
off !
The galaxy should end with the death of everyone and the Warp at peace at last.
Children are playing outside their homes some in millenium 51'st.
Then, the ball went to far from them and one boy head to get it.
The ball went to the strange looking buildings that were all over the planet.
After he took the ball he stood before the building with his friends also admiring the view.
"Children, children" someone yell. They turned and saw the old men Hector. He was calling them for diiner, one of the children said: "Sorry grampa, but we were looking at this building."
"Is that so?" Hector said, only to be asked again: "Grampa, who lived in them? They don't look like ours at all."
Grampa sit to the nearest rock with all the children gathered around him, getting ready to hear the story.
"A long time ago, in the Age of Ending our kind was on the bring of destruction. Our army's were stretched to much, unable to defend. We were losing battle after battle, getting beaten up real hard from all sides. those were really bad times..." He was interrupted: "Mister, that happened before the Emperor's return?"
"Yes" He continue: "Before the Emperor returned with his remaining sons and led the second Great Crusade that made the galaxy what it is today."
"Then who's building are those?" One child asked him. He answered:" Those buildings are all over this sector, they belong to the race called Tau."
"Our homeworld is called Tau grampa, is it because of them?" His grandson asked.
"This was once their homeworld. They wield great technology for that time. They were quite prosperous, trying to bring their image of order to the galaxy."
"What happened to the grampa?"
"First there was an civil war. Their great general called Farsight build an army and started great Tau civil war to liberate them from the Etherial grasp. Of course in the middle of that war great Tyranid Hive Fleet attacked them. It was only a matter of time, after Farsight killed the last Etherial and proclaim himself Emperor of all Tau, Kroot and Vespid, only 30 worlds remained under their control."
"Did the Tyranids destroyed them?" Another child asked, now all interested to hear the rest of the story.
"No. They were able to defeat both Tyranids and Orks but at the cost of almost 20 worlds and their own homeworld in ruins. They started bulding again when this time we came my boy, and with a force Tau didn't expect from us."
"What happened to Farsight?" Another child ask, now wondering what happened to the Tau Emperor.
"He was killed by Guiliman in combat. As strong as he was, he was no match for Emperor's son. The Ultramarines, now numbering 10.000 Space Marines attacked their homeworld and destroy the last of their kind. Only their buildings remained."
Saying that he left children to wonder for several seconds, thinking about the Tau and how unfortunate ending they suffered. And then he said:"Now come on, now is not the time to think about ancient history. Now it is time to fill up your bellies."
The children laughed and start runing home for dinner. With Hector and his grandson far behind them talking about the new age of the Imperium...
The Imperium's human, yes? And humans are destructively curious, foolish and ultimately lazy.
So imagine that on the latest tourist visit to Terra ( c'mon, sombody's bucks are needed to pay for all those tanks), little Johnny decides to see what happens when he pushes the big red button with the "DO NOT TOUCH" label.
The Golden Throne switches off, the Astronomicon goes out, Emperor's dead, lots of warring Imperium forces are suddenly lost and alone, somewhere.
Each contingent will probably end the fight it's in at the moment, but that's it. No more intergalactic travel, everybody heads for the nearest inhabitable planet. No more communication across space, so if any bad guys turn up in your neighbourhood you can't call for help, and nobody's listening.
Some humans find they've got stuff other races want, and vice-versa, and they organise TRADE, instead of fighting all the time. Everybody wins, and all live happily ever after.
With the Golden Throne slowly failing, the Forces of Chaos breaking trough the Cadian Gate, large portions of Pacificus seceeding ( The Night of a Thousand Rebellions ) while many other worlds fall to the daemon ( The Great Awakening ), Leviathan looming at the horizont and a huge Whaaagh brewing in the nearly overrun Scarus sector as well as the ancient Necrontyr awakening ( + all the other "smaller" threats that keep the Imperium busy ) the situation most certainly looks grim for the Imperium of Man.
Children are playing outside their homes some in millenium 51'st.
Then, the ball went to far from them and one boy head to get it.
The ball went to the strange looking buildings that were all over the planet.
After he took the ball he stood before the building with his friends also admiring the view.
"Children, children" someone yell. They turned and saw the old men Hector. He was calling them for diiner, one of the children said: "Sorry grampa, but we were looking at this building."
"Is that so?" Hector said, only to be asked again: "Grampa, who lived in them? They don't look like ours at all."
Grampa sit to the nearest rock with all the children gathered around him, getting ready to hear the story.
"A long time ago, in the Age of Ending our kind was on the bring of destruction. Our army's were stretched to much, unable to defend. We were losing battle after battle, getting beaten up real hard from all sides. those were really bad times..." He was interrupted: "Mister, that happened before the Emperor's return?"
"Yes" He continue: "Before the Emperor returned with his remaining sons and led the second Great Crusade that made the galaxy what it is today."
"Then who's building are those?" One child asked him. He answered:" Those buildings are all over this sector, they belong to the race called Tau."
"Our homeworld is called Tau grampa, is it because of them?" His grandson asked.
"This was once their homeworld. They wield great technology for that time. They were quite prosperous, trying to bring their image of order to the galaxy."
"What happened to the grampa?"
"First there was an civil war. Their great general called Farsight build an army and started great Tau civil war to liberate them from the Etherial grasp. Of course in the middle of that war great Tyranid Hive Fleet attacked them. It was only a matter of time, after Farsight killed the last Etherial and proclaim himself Emperor of all Tau, Kroot and Vespid, only 30 worlds remained under their control."
"Did the Tyranids destroyed them?" Another child asked, now all interested to hear the rest of the story.
"No. They were able to defeat both Tyranids and Orks but at the cost of almost 20 worlds and their own homeworld in ruins. They started bulding again when this time we came my boy, and with a force Tau didn't expect from us."
"What happened to Farsight?" Another child ask, now wondering what happened to the Tau Emperor.
"He was killed by Guiliman in combat. As strong as he was, he was no match for Emperor's son. The Ultramarines, now numbering 10.000 Space Marines attacked their homeworld and destroy the last of their kind. Only their buildings remained."
Saying that he left children to wonder for several seconds, thinking about the Tau and how unfortunate ending they suffered. And then he said:"Now come on, now is not the time to think about ancient history. Now it is time to fill up your bellies."
The children laughed and start runing home for dinner. With Hector and his grandson far behind them talking about the new age of the Imperium...
This story bring tear to my eye
Well, at least a little
Except Guilliman is dying, the Tau could never beat the Orks or Nids and Imperial citizens barely know what happened ten years ago, never mind ten thousand.
Here, children, is the true ending of the Imperium:
After the Thirteenth Black Crusade, the Forces of Chaos and the Armies of the Imperium remained in deadlock, fighting what seemed to be an eternal war over the increasingly scarred surface of Cadia. However, the Imperium became slowly more strained by the increasing bulk of the Tyranid Fleets assaulting the galaxy and the seemingly endless tide of awakening Necrons. After an assurance by Herron that he could hold the forces of Chaos on Cadia for at least the four hundred years his predecessor Creed had achieved, the High Lords re-located the majority of the reinforcements throughout the galaxy to combat these rising threats. It would prove a fatal error. With a few calculated bargains, Herron forced himself into control of every aspect of Cadia's armies. As resources steadily trickled away, the Cadians led a rebellion against their leader, battling through trap after trap. When they finally reached the command room of the traitor, the rebels were gunned down by Alpha Legion marines, who then killed Herron, claiming he had fulfilled the role they had designed for him, and he had to pay the price for betraying the Emperor.
So did Cadia finally fall. The Traitor Legions and their heretical allies were unleashed upon the galaxy with a force born of almost twenty thousand years of hatred. The Emperor's Children split from the main force, hunting Craftworld after Craftworld. Spirit Stones were shattered as heretical bargains were fulfilled, unleashing daemons within the sanctuaries of the dying race, and Lugannath, Yme-Loc, Iybraesil and Varantha fell. The remainder fled further from the rest of the galaxy, haunted by the laughter of Slaanesh as it destroyed their sleeping god Ynnead.
The World Eaters were left in a war against Orks for almost two decades. The greenskins were led by a massive nine hundred year old ork identifying itself as the prophet of Gork'n'Mork. The deadlock was broken as the bloodshed released enough energy for the return of the the fell primarch Angron. The two giants approached each other as equals, Thrakka vowing to lend his aid to the war, providing they return to 'haff a proper Waagh wen you'ze finished wit dem puny 'umies'. The combined force fell on Armageddon, burning the planet in a combined triumph and revenge.
It took that ten years for Abaddon to reach the holy planet Terra, not because of Imperial resistance, but because of meticulous attention to each Imperial planet they came across. The Night Lords and Iron Warriors were instrumental in this effort, utilizing their respective talents to the fullest against the planets which had been fortified in preparation for the release of Chaos. The Word Bearers arrived on these planets after the wars, either teaching the population a new, truer faith or sacrificing entire continents for daemonic bargains. The Thousand Sons vanished, reappearing over the skies of Fenris. The two bitter foes clashed, the legion of Tzeentch visiting the same destruction on the homeworld of the Space Wolves that their brothers had brought to theirs. Perhaps attracted by the danger of his home, Russ re-appeared to aid his sons. Now appearing more wolf than man, he engaged Magnus in a titanic battle. The very plates of the planet shook beneath their fury. Even the previously stable fortress-monastery of the chapter began to quake. Magnus finally unleashed his sorcerous might on the planet, wreathing it in a hellish storm which mutated everything it hit with its power. The Thousand Sons were unaffected due to Ahriman's meddling, and the similarities between the spells which decimated the enemies has been noted. Turning his undivided attention to his brother, Magnus obliterated him, body and mind.
The Death Guard guarded the Black Crusade from attacks on the dark army. Repelling both Necron and Tyranid, Nurgle blessed them with diseases which corroded both the genes of the bio-weapons and the metal of the undead. They took particular enjoyment from the Battle of Hydraphur, which saw the final stand of the Grey Knights. In a battle spanning decades, the Knights battled as only true warriors of the Emperor could. The Warp storms which enveloped the planet brought daemonic support to the Death Guard, but also gave the Knights the support of their Grand Master. With his appearance, the Grey Knights seemed to take advantage over their foes, resisting the diseases of Nurgle and destroying the corruption which had been brought to the planet. In an attempt to destroy the legion once and for all, Draigo led a spear-head attack against the leader of the force, Typhus, breaking into the fetid fortress of the servants of Nurgle. However, his force found only death. The hundred were whittled down to twenty by the ten Great Unclean Ones they found within, and as they explored the fortress, they found it to be otherwise empty. Vowing revenge, Draigo and his force began to withdraw, finding their way blocked by the skeletal primarch Mortarion and his Death Shroud. Leaving his bodyguard to prevent any escape, Mortarion battled the Knights alone and unaided, plunging the his Manreaper deep into Draigo's chest and ripping out his heart.
During this time, the Tyrant of Badab had not been idle. His Red Corsairs laid waste to the Imperial shipping lanes, not for their own profit, but to stop Imperial reinforcement against other threats. In desperation, the High Lords sent six chapters against the Red Corsairs, only to see them join Blackheart one by one. The Ultramarines, handicapped by their home planet's distance from Terra, were left stranded in the warp as the gods unleashed storm after storm on the Imperial allies.
A the end of the decade of siege, Abaddon's forces reached Terra, the daemon primarchs relishing this second chance for revenge. Once again, the Iron Warriors broke the defences of the Imperial Fists, leaving the Night Lords and Emperor's Children free to burn terror into the hearts of the planet once again. The combined forces of the Chaos gods broke the Imperial resistance, and the golden throne was destroyed. The False Emperor was burned and daemons ravaged the once-great planet. Abaddon had taken his prize, but the remainder of the Imperium had yet to be destroyed. But it would fall...
IronSnake wrote:I think if events get more dire, GW should introduce new fluff stating that space marine chapters are starting to expand beyond the 1,000 man cap.
Then expand the squad size on TT by 2 models but for the same price as a 10 man squad. Being a space marine player, I could go along with that.
A lot are expanding past the 1000 cap. BT are so huge that you don't put a number on how many there are. Then you get a lot of people who argue that support staff and tanks don't fit in the cap. The limit of 1000 is so eroded and weak these days.
In regards to GW not advancing the plot, isn't stagnation of the plot kind of one of the reasons why they've changed the scope of the global campaigns (whenever they do them >.<? Specifically in regards to the Eye of Terror campaign when the forces of Chaos just barely beat out the forces of Good. It was my understanding that once the results were in GW kind of went "oh crap!" because this constituted an unexpected outcome of the campaign and a fundamental shift forward in the storyline.
Course with the last rulebook we actually saw hints of the Golden Throne failing, so who knows? Maybe we'll actually see the beginnings of the 42nd millenium with the coming of 6th ed.
They stopped global campaigns for that reason. While the idea was there and was done with good intentions (let the players influence the story), they didn't get the expected results so they basically made up their preferred end anyway. Same with what happened in the Storm of Chaos campaign for Fantasy (with Archaon getting unexpectedly bonked on the head by Grimgor Ironhide).
Eye of Terror and Storm of Chaos were the last of the campaign books. Now we get expansions.
IronSnake wrote:Yeah it's typically 1,000 actual space marines and then something like 2-3,000 staff? I wonder if Dreadnoughts take up space in the 1,000 man cap.
If the cap was treated with any kind of respect, they would count. The cap dosen't seem to have that much respect though. Dreadnoughts might fit in a loop hole. Well there not really SM, so they shouldn't count kind of thing.
phhaeron Latoch wrote:Yes, it will because everyone hates them. It's true. They lost themselves in the crusades to expand their empire.
Wrong. Everyone n 40k either hate each other or have disdain for each other. You seem to be of the opinion that everyone in the galaxy lived in peace with each other before the coming of the Imperium. This is false. Planets have been found by the Imperium that have ruins of ancient civs that destroyed each other due to the effects of other alien weapons in orbit and other races attack each other like in Xenology with Eldar attacking the insect race etc.
I can see the imperium falling if GW ever looses enough money and eventually stops making product and has to close its doors. They would probably give it a happy ending to allow the few hundred fans left at the end some closure. But with new video games, a MMORPG on the way, and more expansions and finecasts projected... I suspect that day will be long in comming. Maybe we'll get to WH 50k ?
If the novel Legion is correct, then there should be only Chaos in 50k, with 5 Chaos Powers. If, on the other hand, the Star Child Cycle is completed when the Golden Throne fails, then the Emperor is reborn and only Humans would be left in 50k. So no, I don't think we'll ever get to 50k. Unless they specifically retcon this...
And Sneaks, The Sneakiest Sneaker wearing specially trained Snotling would use his stealthiest sneaking to inflitrate the terra. The Imperium never saw it coming. All sneaks did was pull the plug.
BUT, when he did the power of the Emperor of Mankind flooded into him. Sneaks ballooned with his new awesome might, the strenf an kunnin of Gork and Mork channeled directly into him. His power would radiate outward, a beacon to all the orks in all of the Galaxies.
Gathered together under the Banner of the Ork gods realized, the Ork forces would eradicate all those not fit to face in battle. The Humies all scattered after the Terra got krumped proper by Sneaks Ascended. Chaos was fun, but each humie destroyed weakened the imaginary ones and Gork and Mork made sure the gods fought fair (cause Mork was to kunnin for the sneaky gits, and Gork mashed up the ones who thought they could stand and fight)
The humies left over would all scatter, but it was of little note to the Orks. The metal guys tried to use some sorta map to kill Sneaks, but it blowed up when one of the stealth snot squads messed with all the plug things. The bird ones assimilated, the blue ones ran away. The skinny psychic ones retreated to the webway, the orks dunno what what happened to them in there, but they were always ready for a fight if they came out. The nids kept coming, and the Orks kept killing. It was the paradise that Gork and Mork had always promised, a future with nothing but WAR!
Emperor being reborn means the Imperium gets reborn as well (after a bloody civil war as the Emperor restores His Imperial Truth), so the Imperium gets an EFFICIENT bureaucracy held together by a living god, Astartes Legions reappear, and Second Great Crusade conquers the galaxy while Chaos Powers starve to death. If the Emperor does not get reborn, a fifth Chaos Power embodying Mankind's dark side would appear, while the Eye of Terror would expand to cover the whole Imperium (fall of the Imperium = Fall of Mankind). That's 2/3rds of the galaxy. No other race in the galaxy can stand against Chaos at this point, since the Imperium has pretty much made itself the largely dominant and largest military power in the galaxy.
Ovion wrote:How does the emp reborn / not mean the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks and 'nids magically vanish leaving only humans / chaos?
If Emperor get's reborn, he will be probably as strong as Chaos God. Only in material world.
+ he will get back Space marine Legions, update current tech...
In short - aliens would be dead as Tyranids on the planet that is about to get hit by Exterminatus in 2 seconds.
Ovion wrote:How does the emp reborn / not mean the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks and 'nids magically vanish leaving only humans / chaos?
If Emperor get's reborn, he will be probably as strong as Chaos God. Only in material world.
+ he will get back Space marine Legions, update current tech...
In short - aliens would be dead as Tyranids on the planet that is about to get hit by Exterminatus in 2 seconds.
Probably both...we should start a thread discussing the state of the Imperium after the Emperor is reborn...a civil war is pretty much guaranteed...both here and the 40k universe.
Tadashi wrote:If the novel Legion is correct, then there should be only Chaos in 50k, with 5 Chaos Powers. If, on the other hand, the Star Child Cycle is completed when the Golden Throne fails, then the Emperor is reborn and only Humans would be left in 50k. So no, I don't think we'll ever get to 50k. Unless they specifically retcon this...
Why would the Star Child theory be correct when Tzeentchian cultists were the ones to propose it?
There is a very good chance (from the ever popular Grimdark position ) that the Emperor is dead, and the last acts he ever conciously enabled was to activate the Golden throne and ignite the Astronomicon.
The 1000 psykers consumed daily are what powers it, the Golden throne merely the focus, The lords of Terra use the myth and cult of the emperor to maintain thier own grasps on power.
And all the acts of Faith and miracles are the result of consensual reality providing the impetus (sort of the way orks believe something makes it happen.) not the actions of some God emperor helping his followers from the beyond.
That the Grim truth may be that there will be no reborn emperor, no star child, no great rebirth of the imperium of man, that is golden years are behind it, and all that is left is the slow descent into oblivion....
The Vain actions of the highlords to hold the Imperium together are only prolonging the inevitable, The Empire fell on the bridge of Horus's flagship, its just been on life support since.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:There is a very good chance (from the ever popular Grimdark position ) that the Emperor is dead, and the last acts he ever conciously enabled was to activate the Golden throne and ignite the Astronomicon.
The 1000 psykers consumed daily are what powers it, the Golden throne merely the focus, The lords of Terra use the myth and cult of the emperor to maintain thier own grasps on power.
And all the acts of Faith and miracles are the result of consensual reality providing the impetus (sort of the way orks believe something makes it happen.) not the actions of some God emperor helping his followers from the beyond.
That the Grim truth may be that there will be no reborn emperor, no star child, no great rebirth of the imperium of man, that is golden years are behind it, and all that is left is the slow descent into oblivion....
The Vain actions of the highlords to hold the Imperium together are only prolonging the inevitable, The Empire fell on the bridge of Horus's flagship, its just been on life support since.
There's some Grimdark for ya.
And on the other hand - you can't prove it that the Emperor is actually dead. And that it is not him that do those miracles.
In fact, 5'th edition fluff refers to that Emperor is still very much alive, whiel your theory is only guessing.
So
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Durza wrote:
Why would the Star Child theory be correct when Tzeentchian cultists were the ones to propose it?
The Inquisition said that, for what we all know they could made up the story to justify killing all those people.
"We found their lair, one of the was Chaos Daemon and we kill them all" while in reality they just kileld a bunch of ordinary cultist.
Sounds like Inquisition to me.
Chaos will never be defeated unless life itself disappears from the universe. The best that the races of 40k can hope for is to hold it off and seal it in the Warp, or take the Eldar route and limit their Warp presence as much as possible.
TrollPie wrote:Chaos will never be defeated unless life itself disappears from the universe. The best that the races of 40k can hope for is to hold it off and seal it in the Warp, or take the Eldar route and limit their Warp presence as much as possible.
Necrons have tech that disperse Warp fields. If they start building that on a massive scale all around the galaxy there woudl be no Chaos at all.
Alright here is the thing, the franchise won't divert from it's course as it's effective for sales. However I could see GW letting the imperium decay a bit more than it already has. However, the relations of the universe for this post and many couldn't be more wrong. If the Emperor were to die, 90% of warp travel is no longer valid, the emperor is a beacon of pyschic energy which their navigators rely on to foresee warp jumps it would effectively cripple military sitatuions. That being said they still have their pysker choirs which would warn all needed factions of incoming attacks, they would just need to use calcuated jumps were are a little mor dangerous.
Nids have no known limit to size or number since they come from outside the galaxy. The orks are in this fashion too, an imperial probe that was sent during the infancy of the imperium is still recording worlds full of orks. The High lords of terra have dedicated so much to facing these 2 threats alone no even comparing it to chaos that the Imperium more or less either ignores or destroys all other presences of xenos this would remain unchanged.
The Eldar are a dying out people they have said so themselves, this being said I could foresee they suffering a similar fate of the necron eventually as entire craftworlds start to resemble tomb worlds with just a few warlocks and farseers tending to the wraithguards and lords of their craft worlds.
The Dark eldar I admittantly know little of but they have always seems secured.
The Tau, yes i imagine would be over-run but remember even the Imperium, orks and nids haven't been able to weed them out effective due to their tech so if they go out it will be one hell of a war of attrition
In my opinion the Necron despite the HERP DERP of their codex, are threat to the imperium but they suffer the role of universal villain which means when they appear everyone wants to destroy them perhaps more than any army out there besides chaos but at least orks, nids and dark eldar can ignore their presence for more or less if they put their minds to it (to them the galaxy just got more interesting).
I think if the universe of 40k was to come crashing down it would ultimately resolve as thus, Orks and Nids fight to the point where when one of them wins they prove to become the dominate force in the material universe.
If Orks won, they would slowly grow unchecked until the universe was crushed under the weight of numbers but their eradication would be more of a passive one
If nids won they'd have untold levels of biomass enough to eradicate the universe in a aggressive fashion
The ademn i'd like to bring up to pass is chaos would probably continue it's warfare and perhaps those factions would bring galactic doom to the warp where things might change.
But this is all really .... really... REALLY unlikely to pass. So we've all wasted our time good job people.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:There is a very good chance (from the ever popular Grimdark position ) that the Emperor is dead, and the last acts he ever conciously enabled was to activate the Golden throne and ignite the Astronomicon.
The 1000 psykers consumed daily are what powers it, the Golden throne merely the focus, The lords of Terra use the myth and cult of the emperor to maintain thier own grasps on power.
And all the acts of Faith and miracles are the result of consensual reality providing the impetus (sort of the way orks believe something makes it happen.) not the actions of some God emperor helping his followers from the beyond.
That the Grim truth may be that there will be no reborn emperor, no star child, no great rebirth of the imperium of man, that is golden years are behind it, and all that is left is the slow descent into oblivion....
The Vain actions of the highlords to hold the Imperium together are only prolonging the inevitable, The Empire fell on the bridge of Horus's flagship, its just been on life support since.
There's some Grimdark for ya.
And on the other hand - you can't prove it that the Emperor is actually dead. And that it is not him that do those miracles.
In fact, 5'th edition fluff refers to that Emperor is still very much alive, whiel your theory is only guessing.
So
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Durza wrote:
Why would the Star Child theory be correct when Tzeentchian cultists were the ones to propose it?
The Inquisition said that, for what we all know they could made up the story to justify killing all those people.
"We found their lair, one of the was Chaos Daemon and we kill them all" while in reality they just kileld a bunch of ordinary cultist.
Sounds like Inquisition to me.
And you can't prove he's alive either, since all the "proof" you cite is visions and portents, and stigmata, where the reality is its a corpse on a fancy gold toliet, he does not talk, walk, of even nod his head, and is portrayed even in the art as a skeletal corpse, so there may be more "proof" as him being actually dead, and the entire religion is a total sham.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And you can't prove he's alive either, since all the "proof" you cite is visions and portents, and stigmata, where the reality is its a corpse on a fancy gold toliet, he does not talk, walk, of even nod his head, and is portrayed even in the art as a skeletal corpse, so there may be more "proof" as him being actually dead, and the entire religion is a total sham.
Not visions, but actual text.
5'th edition rulebook, page 101.
HE is very much alive, and kicking Chaos Gods buts.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:LOL, sure man, whatever you say, blind faith, is still blindness.
p.s. my proof is the 9k+ years of him being a corpse...and the smell of course.
So your proof are your words while I have text from Rulebook that say: "He is still alive, his brain is more alive then ever".
As you can see this is not blind faith, but actual scientific conclusion.
And he is off in the invisible world of the Warp fighting chaos gods....
is he also making toys for all the good marines and humans.
and puting a credit chip under each childs pillow when he loses a tooth.
and from the state of the Galaxy it seems he is doing a wonderful job of fighting those evil gods...really everything seems so much better...
Maybe , just maybe, he could use some of his massive space magic and perhaps, and maybe fix his rotting carcass and actually show his followers that have been dying in the trillions for thousands of years for him, that he is truly alive, and not leave the running and corrupting of his incredible works in the hands of simple fallible humans.
but oh well he has better space magic uses for that I guess.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And you can't prove he's alive either, since all the "proof" you cite is visions and portents, and stigmata, where the reality is its a corpse on a fancy gold toliet, he does not talk, walk, of even nod his head, and is portrayed even in the art as a skeletal corpse, so there may be more "proof" as him being actually dead, and the entire religion is a total sham.
Not visions, but actual text.
5'th edition rulebook, page 101.
HE is very much alive, and kicking Chaos Gods buts.
Now show me your proff...
Oh yeah, you can't
Chaos codex. He's called a corpse and dead repeatedly.
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Pilau Rice wrote:
Durza wrote:
Why would the Star Child theory be correct when Tzeentchian cultists were the ones to propose it?
Whether his soul is still boxed up inside his gold-plated skull or not is the issue here. It might be, it might not. Sources disagree, and we can't use 'weight of evidence' as most of the codexes and pretty much all of the rulebook fluff are from the Imperial perspective
His body is pretty fething dead. LIving bodies just don't look like that It doesn't really matter much, as the discussion is about hsi soul/spirit/anima etc.
Some fluff from back when showed him as still having a semi-functional body, such as when he opened his eyes in fear at the awakening of Gork and Mork, but all recent art shows him as an inanimate skeleton in a chair.
The old Necron codex (can't speak for the current one) and i beleive the eldar codex also refer to him as a corpse and/or dead
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if he's so all fired powerful to stop chaos from breaking into the material universe, how come they do, all the time, everywhere?
How come fateweaver can open a gate to the materium with a languid wave of a claw, if the pressure to keep it shut is so uber? You'd expect him to have to strain a little
Ovion wrote:How does the emp reborn / not mean the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks and 'nids magically vanish leaving only humans / chaos?
If Emperor get's reborn, he will be probably as strong as Chaos God. Only in material world.
+ he will get back Space marine Legions, update current tech...
In short - aliens would be dead as Tyranids on the planet that is about to get hit by Exterminatus in 2 seconds.
Probably both...we should start a thread discussing the state of the Imperium after the Emperor is reborn...a civil war is pretty much guaranteed...both here and the 40k universe.
The Orcs are ancient, and it's basically impossible to destroy them, even after an exterminatus the spores would remain in the earth and eventually regrow.
Considering the imperium during the golden age of technology, nor the eldar at the height of their empire could get rid of the orcs the emp suddenly returnings hardly going to fix them.
The only ones theoretically able to remove their blight completely are the nids, as though they cannot digest or assimilate the orc spore, they can collect and contain it within filtered biosacs as they consume an entire planet for biomass etc, then ejecting them into the local star.
But even then there's still the space hulks and the what not flying around that could reseed the dead worlds.
Eldar craftworlds can just fly out of the way of nids, orcs etc (up till when they die out and become floating reliquaries)
On top of that there's dozens of other alien races floating around.
Dark Eldar are in the webway and generally relatively safe from incursions within real-space. They'll survive feeding upon orks, nids or any other given random alien race left in the universe.
Chaos will survive because they'll be fueled by the combined emotions of the universe, even if the warp is somehow sealed they'll likely still be there.
And failing all else Slanney will be about as long as there's Dark Eldar still around.
Nids are freakin huge and it'll be insanely hard to exorcise their cancer from the galaxy.
Tau should hold their own against orcs and such, and will do perfectly fine untill something huge turns it's focus to them and smushes them.
Course they could always do the nazi europe thing and get ignored / not really noticed till their so large they're actual contenders and become one of the entrenched long-termers.
Either way, even if the emperor did reappear and they did start back on a path back to technological sense, there'd probably be a civil war between the current corrupt rulers and their lackeys and the imperials loyal to the emperor, and on top of that the imperial forces are spread so thin across so many fronts the logistics of a crusade on top of those existing fronts and the new civil war would be insane resulting in yet another a long drawn out stalemate.
I don't think a civil war would end in a stale-mate. All of the space marine chapters would 100% guaranteed take the side of the Emperor were he to return. That would stomp out resistance pretty quickly.
"Who do you side with? Me and the Astartes Legions... or the High Lords?" - Emperor
*goes bathroom in shorts* "y-y-you! my lord!" - anyone with a brain between their ears
The logic answer is - we don't know, not until GW continue story.
But they will probably end 40k largaly toward the Imperium. Because the golden rule of every big sci-fi is - Humans always win, regardless of situation.
The Emperor was a genocidal maniac brutally murdering his opponents. The Interex were advanced humans fighting chaos. What did he do? "PURGE THE SUB HUMANS!" He must really have liked Hitler He is maybe the most powerfull chaos god since he demands sacrifice, has zealots killing in HIS name and has the largest base of worshippers. He even made deamon princes(Primarchs).
Okay, all those people who say "gw will never let ------- happen" this is doesn't fit in a background standpoint, so really don't Use that as a reason.
And now, on to your question, yes, the imperium of man will fall, though not in the table top game.
Though, this does not mean all the humans will die.
Brutally murdering his opponents? Should he have set humanity up for epic failure/slaughter by the hands of xenos scum? The Emperor did what must be done, and that is unite humanity and strike out at those races and forces that would see humanity enslaved/murdered.
GW won't let that happen. They would destroy necrons or tyranids before their own kind. Personally i'd love to see the Tau come out ahead. How's that for a plot twist
IronSnake wrote:Brutally murdering his opponents? Should he have set humanity up for epic failure/slaughter by the hands of xenos scum? The Emperor did what must be done, and that is unite humanity and strike out at those races and forces that would see humanity enslaved/murdered.
He exterminated the Interex. HUUR LOOK ZOME HUMANZ THAT KNOW THE DANGErZ OF CHAOS! LET EXTERMIN EM! But I will let the common humans who are less advanced, more superstitious live and spread and I will not tell my sons about the big bad strangers with their mutating candy!
IronSnake wrote:Brutally murdering his opponents? Should he have set humanity up for epic failure/slaughter by the hands of xenos scum? The Emperor did what must be done, and that is unite humanity and strike out at those races and forces that would see humanity enslaved/murdered.
Which brings up the question:
If the alien races were so dead set on human for dinner, how come none came to dinner before the Emperor got everyone unified in their xenocidal crusade?
To me it sounds more like the 'we got them before they could think to get us' pre-emptive attack that's usually espoused by despots and religious loonies than a great, wise and benificent messiah-wannabe.... oh yes.... he WAS a genocidal, xenocidal despot who simultaneously despised religion and allowed the creation of his own god-cult. Well done that man Plausible deniability AND the benefits of a cult
Most of the alien races out there couldn't give a feth about Earth, until he went and crusaded all over the galaxy wiping out races left and right.
If the IOM had stayed smaller, and been less bloody-minded murderous it would likely never have met half of the races that want to kill it, and if they wouldn't need the universe's biggest strobelight. The Nids are homing on it, you know
As it is the IOM's over-extended and undersupplied, much like the Roman empire it was modelled on, surrounded by people they've ticked off, and unable to keep their iron hold on the hearts and minds of the citizenry due to the crushing,oppressive conditions they maintain.
Any time you keep people in those conditions you will have rebellions etc, as desperate people have little to lose (except their souls..but hey )
After the interex declared war upon the Emperor's forces, yes. There was a mish-mash of non-communication and it was basically one large cluster-frak after they accused Horus and his legion of theft. The Emperor didn't just say "KILL THEMMMMMMM!!!" right off. The eradication of the interex can be blamed on Erebus. Squarely.
The Emperor isn't dead, the Rulebooks and Imperial Codexes say so. And the Emperor makes psychic contact with those Inquisitors who are granted the right of audience. As for Tzeentchian Cultists proposing the Star Child Cycle, well GW never actually retconned the collective shaman origin of the Emperor or removed the Illuminati, so it's probably them trying to keep the Imperium from catching on. And what's wrong with the Emperor killing abhumans, xenos, and those who refuse His rule? Following the Age of Strife, Mankind was on the brink of extinction, so sacrifices had to be made.
Just replace the word parrot with Emporer. Also so the Emporer talks to these inquisitors in their mind which noone else can hear or see do they also look into hats and give out fortunes. Personally i favour the reading of animal entrails i find this much more reliable.
Why do non-Imperials keep ignoring the Rulebooks saying the Emperor's still alive. Or the fact that the Emperor's existence is the basic premise of 40k. He HOVERS on the verge of life and death. You want to be specific, fine, it's called undeath. He's not dead, but He's not alive either.
What do you mean He does nothing? He focuses the Astronomican, soul-binds Astropaths, and protects non-Chaos worshipping Human souls in the warp. And apparently you don't know that the Emperor cannot be reborn as long as He remains connected to the Throne. In the meantime, He gets stronger because of Mankind's collective belief in Him, so when the Throne finally fails, He can use all that stored up power to restore His physical form. Then we go on another Great Crusade.
I consider the slow decay of my forces and the continuing strengthening of my enemy a poor tactical situation that worsens with time and my forces would be better served with a last ditch effort offensive rather than languishing into oblivion.
Then again, this is the same strategic genius that engineered failure out of all those Space Marines and their Super Primarch's, so thinking he's just biding his time, and waiting for Chaos to put its guard down while he rots probably isnt to far off the mark,.
The Emperor is not dead. The Emperor is not truly alive. That's enough of that debate. It doesn't matter anyway. All that matters is he's stuck on the throne and he can't fight, at least physically.
Durza wrote:If they end 40k with the Imperium winning, humanity loses.
No Humanity wins cause with the Imperium's victory the conditions that help the Imperium maintain its power disappear and thus the Imperium will collapse but with no threats to humanity's existence existing anymore, this is not much of a problem.
Space Crusader wrote:The Emperor was a genocidal maniac brutally murdering his opponents. The Interex were advanced humans fighting chaos. What did he do? "PURGE THE SUB HUMANS!" He must really have liked Hitler
You just fail. The so called 'enlightened Interex' are major fail. They said they knew about the existence of Chaos and when they have the existence of a Chaos weapon, what do they do with it? Do they destroy it? No, of course not! They put it in a bloody museum to be stolen by Chaos. Yeah, they fail utterly.
Hell, the Interex love to make peace with aliens not realizing that an alliance of aliens called the CABAL are planning to have all of humanity die! The Interex were not destroyed by the Emperor, unless I'm mistaken, they were destroyed by Horus cause the Interex attacked him think he had stolen their Chaos weapon from the museum. Instead of acting like enlightened and civilized by asking Horus questions and interrogating him, they went "Hur Durr! Must Kill!!!"
Again Interex are fail!
He is maybe the most powerfull chaos god since he demands sacrifice, has zealots killing in HIS name and has the largest base of worshippers. He even made deamon princes(Primarchs).
In what way did the Emperor demand sacrifice? He didn't create the Imperial church. The sacrifice is needed for the Astronomicon which allows humanity to travle across the galaxy without which humanity dies! But you of course ignore that .
Ascalam wrote:
Which brings up the question:
If the alien races were so dead set on human for dinner, how come none came to dinner before the Emperor got everyone unified in their xenocidal crusade?
A Primarchs homeworld was ravaged by alien slavers, some fluff has mention of the Sol system having alien slavers inside of it during the Age of Strife. Also no alien managed to truly invade the Sol system due to the Warp storms that isolated Terra from the rest of the galaxy, do you remember any of this?
To me it sounds more like the 'we got them before they could think to get us' pre-emptive attack that's usually espoused by despots and religious loonies than a great, wise and benificent messiah-wannabe.... oh yes.... he WAS a genocidal, xenocidal despot who simultaneously despised religion and allowed the creation of his own god-cult. Well done that man Plausible deniability AND the benefits of a cult
That was created by others and not him. But you of course ignore this.
Most of the alien races out there couldn't give a feth about Earth, until he went and crusaded all over the galaxy wiping out races left and right.
They didn't need Earth because there were literally uncountable human settled worlds across the galaxy that aliens like the Orks, Eldar, and Slaught enslaved or ate for their own amusement.
As it is the IOM's over-extended and undersupplied, much like the Roman empire it was modelled on, surrounded by people they've ticked off, and unable to keep their iron hold on the hearts and minds of the citizenry due to the crushing,oppressive conditions they maintain.
Any time you keep people in those conditions you will have rebellions etc, as desperate people have little to lose (except their souls..but hey )
** edit for spelling*
The Tau empire also has rebellion so this little rant of yours is meaningless.
Durza wrote:
Chaos codex. He's called a corpse and dead repeatedly.
I believe they call him the Corpse-God.
Space Crusader wrote:
He exterminated the Interex. HUUR LOOK ZOME HUMANZ THAT KNOW THE DANGErZ OF CHAOS! LET EXTERMIN EM! But I will let the common humans who are less advanced, more superstitious live and spread and I will not tell my sons about the big bad strangers with their mutating candy!
The Interex were destroyed by Horus who did so after they failed to kill him, the Emperor didn;t order there destruction.
CpatTom wrote:Because for every source that says he's alive: (all the stuff the Imperium guys read) there is another that say he isn't (Chaos, Skeleton pictures).
The possibility that he is alive but does nothing with his magnificent power, would be worse in my opinion, than if he was dead.
Alive: he doesn't care about humanity and just wants to keep on living. Man continues making chaos stronger with every day, yet he does nothing.
Dead: well, he's dead, he put together the best plan he could for this inevitable day, but people suck so its not working out.
CpatTom wrote:I consider the slow decay of my forces and the continuing strengthening of my enemy a poor tactical situation that worsens with time and my forces would be better served with a last ditch effort offensive rather than languishing into oblivion.
Then again, this is the same strategic genius that engineered failure out of all those Space Marines and their Super Primarch's, so thinking he's just biding his time, and waiting for Chaos to put its guard down while he rots probably isnt to far off the mark,.
The Emperor has the more important job of broadcasting the Astronomicon which every ship in the Imperium needs, if you read the 5TH edition rulebook. An alien psyker's death cause the Astronomicon to flicker and other bad effects which caused millions of ships to be lost in the Warp. The Emp also battles the Chaos gods which is important seeing as ForgeWorld states that the goal of Chaos is to merge the galaxy with the Warp which will kill everyone.
Durza wrote:
Why would the Star Child theory be correct when Tzeentchian cultists were the ones to propose it?
That's what the Inquisition wants you to think
That's what the Alpha Legion want you to think.
And that's what the Cabal wanted them to think
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
You just fail. The so called 'enlightened Interex' are major fail. They said they knew about the existence of Chaos and when they have the existence of a Chaos weapon, what do they do with it? Do they destroy it? No, of course not! They put it in a bloody museum to be stolen by Chaos. Yeah, they fail utterly.
Hell, the Interex love to make peace with aliens not realizing that an alliance of aliens called the CABAL are planning to have all of humanity die! The Interex were not destroyed by the Emperor, unless I'm mistaken, they were destroyed by Horus cause the Interex attacked him think he had stolen their Chaos weapon from the museum. Instead of acting like enlightened and civilized by asking Horus questions and interrogating him, they went "Hur Durr! Must Kill!!!"
Again Interex are fail!
Ignorance is bliss as they say and what's wrong with taking other races under your wing, the Tau seem to be getting on ok. So you're blaming the Interex for not using WMD's and keeping them a museum, which was going well until the Imperium showed up.
It's not just a musem, it's a weapons locker.
‘We hold the weapons of the kinebrach here,’ Naud said, to meturge accompaniment. ‘Indeed, we preserve here, in careful stasis, examples of the weapons used by many of the alien species we have encountered. The kinebrach have, as a sign of service to us, foresworn the bearing of arms, unless under such circumstances as we grant them said use in time of war. Kinebrach technology is highly advanced, and many of their weapons are deemed too lethal to be left beyond securement.’ - Horus Rising p323
So if necessary, it's quite possible that should the Interex require the use of the weapons they would allow the Kinebrach to do so. And where is it said that the Anathame is a Chaos Blade pray tell?
And it wasn't a case of the Interex just attacking.
‘Tull said the Hall of Devices was on fire.’ Horus nodded. ‘This is what they accused us of. Robbery. Deceit. Murder. Apparently someone raided the Hall of Devices tonight and slew the curator. Dan Abnett –
Weapons were stolen.’ - Horus Rising p342
And quite rightly
‘Captain Loken,’ he said, his voice now gusting from his audio relays, ‘I demand you turn your weapons over to me at this time.’ Loken took a step back. ‘For what reason?’ ‘I don’t have to give a reason, dammit! I’m officer of the watch, on interex territory. Hand over your weapons!’ - Horus Rising P333
Pilau Rice wrote:
Ignorance is bliss as they say and what's wrong with taking other races under your wing, the Tau seem to be getting on ok. So you're blaming the Interex for not using WMD's and keeping them a museum, which was going well until the Imperium showed up.
Who cares about the Tau? Why even mention the Tau in this discussion between us?
No I'm blaming the Interex for not destroying a Chaos weapon that got stolen by Chaos, due to their incompetence, not by the Imperium.
Again, the Tau's thinking has a great chance of ruining them if they try their actions with the races of the Calixis sector who would eat the Tau empire from within.
It's not just a musem, it's a weapons locker.
Warhammer 40k wiki says otherwise.
‘We hold the weapons of the kinebrach here,’ Naud said, to meturge accompaniment. ‘Indeed, we preserve here, in careful stasis, examples of the weapons used by many of the alien species we have encountered. The kinebrach have, as a sign of service to us, foresworn the bearing of arms, unless under such circumstances as we grant them said use in time of war. Kinebrach technology is highly advanced, and many of their weapons are deemed too lethal to be left beyond securement.’ - Horus Rising p323
Sounds like a museum to me.
So if necessary, it's quite possible that should the Interex require the use of the weapons they would allow the Kinebrach to do so. And where is it said that the Anathame is a Chaos Blade pray tell?
Sources I've read state that the Sword had links to Chaos.
And it wasn't a case of the Interex just attacking.
‘Tull said the Hall of Devices was on fire.’ Horus nodded. ‘This is what they accused us of. Robbery. Deceit. Murder. Apparently someone raided the Hall of Devices tonight and slew the curator. Dan Abnett –
Weapons were stolen.’ - Horus Rising p342
And quite rightly
Quite Rightly what? Such situations have happened in both fiction and real life(obviously without the 40k elements) that were resolved peacefully when both sides didn't start shooting at each other.
‘Captain Loken,’ he said, his voice now gusting from his audio relays, ‘I demand you turn your weapons over to me at this time.’ Loken took a step back. ‘For what reason?’ ‘I don’t have to give a reason, dammit! I’m officer of the watch, on interex territory. Hand over your weapons!’ - Horus Rising P333
Yeah, the Interex don't show themselves to be so called 'enlightened or advanced' here. Instead of trying to calmly using their brains to find out what the hell happened. They allowed the situation to erupt into hostilities by attacking Horus and his team.
The Cabal tricked the twin Primarchs. Somehow, I doubt that the Emperor would have wanted Mankind destroyed just to defeat Chaos. And even when the twins helped Horus, the Cabal's vision didn't work out. I strongly hold on to the belief that the Cabal was just a Xenos organization manipulating certain Humans to prevent Mankind from becoming ascendant, or were somehow influenced by Chaos.
No because Draigo will kill everything......pretty simple really
Seriously yes it would, very slowly but it would collapse and die out, chaos, orks, crons and tyranids would be left to fight it out and as long as there a people to summon daemons (purposefully or accidently) chaos have unnumbered troops, how can you beat that??
CpatTom wrote:I consider the slow decay of my forces and the continuing strengthening of my enemy a poor tactical situation that worsens with time and my forces would be better served with a last ditch effort offensive rather than languishing into oblivion.
Then again, this is the same strategic genius that engineered failure out of all those Space Marines and their Super Primarch's, so thinking he's just biding his time, and waiting for Chaos to put its guard down while he rots probably isnt to far off the mark,.
Better than just pretending the Great Enemy doesn't exist and hoping it will just go away. And if the Emperor's dead, why are the Chaos Powers and their slaves trying so hard to break into Terra and deactivate the Golden Throne?
Tadashi wrote:The Cabal tricked the twin Primarchs.
Um.. no. If you go with a link I have already posted. It appears that the Twins are acting against both the CABAL and the Imperium for their own goals, whatever those may be.
Somehow, I doubt that the Emperor would have wanted Mankind destroyed just to defeat Chaos.
Chaos is the result of all sentient races. Its just due to humanity being the most populous and most emotional atm, is why Chaos is most fervent among humanity. But aliens do serve the Dark Gods too which makes the CABAL's plan of killing off humanity to destroy Chaos as utter stupidity.
And even when the twins helped Horus, the Cabal's vision didn't work out. I strongly hold on to the belief that the Cabal was just a Xenos organization manipulating certain Humans to prevent Mankind from becoming ascendant, or were somehow influenced by Chaos.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Who cares about the Tau? Why even mention the Tau in this discussion between us?
Unfortunately, it's not just between you. If you haven't noticed this is a forum, with other posters. If it was a private discussion. take it to PM. You were commenting on the Interex making alliances with alien races, I just said that it seems to be working out ok for the Tau.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:No I'm blaming the Interex for not destroying a Chaos weapon that got stolen by Chaos, due to their incompetence, not by the Imperium.
So it's the Interex fault that Erebus stole it, silly me.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Warhammer 40k wiki says otherwise.
So the wiki trumps the actual source. I'll remember that when I am in a fluff debate.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Sounds like a museum to me.
Yes, also a place that they store weapons for possible use.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
I've read state that the Sword had links to Chaos.
Wiki again I presume?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Quite Rightly what? Such situations have happened in both fiction and real life(obviously without the 40k elements) that were resolved peacefully when both sides didn't start shooting at each other.
This was in reference to the quote below it with the justified response by Tull.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yeah, the Interex don't show themselves to be so called 'enlightened or advanced' here. Instead of trying to calmly using their brains to find out what the hell happened. They allowed the situation to erupt into hostilities by attacking Horus and his team.
The violence started to happen after the Luna Wolves refused to give up their weapons. If the Luna Wolves would have followed their hosts requests in a time of suspicion then things might have gone differently, but they didn't and the Interex acted to deal with a possible threat on their own planet.
Say I walk into your house and take a leak on your carpet, you ask me to stop but I ignore you and proceed to urinate in plant pots and your kitchen sink. Are you going to keep asking me nicely to stop or are you going to lay down the law and throw me out?
Brother-Captain Scotti wrote:No because Draigo will kill everything......pretty simple really
Seriously yes it would, very slowly but it would collapse and die out, chaos, orks, crons and tyranids would be left to fight it out and as long as there a people to summon daemons (purposefully or accidently) chaos have unnumbered troops, how can you beat that??
Chaos isn't all-powerful. It might take all the time and resources at the Imperium's disposal, but Chaos can be defeated. The Emperor ensured that even if HE dies, then that part of Him He cast away when destroyed Horus would restore His body and lead the Imperium once more. If you've read the novels concerning Jaq Draco, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Who cares about the Tau? Why even mention the Tau in this discussion between us?
Unfortunately, it's not just between you. If you haven't noticed this is a forum, with other posters. If it was a private discussion. take it to PM. You were commenting on the Interex making alliances with alien races, I just said that it seems to be working out ok for the Tau.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:No I'm blaming the Interex for not destroying a Chaos weapon that got stolen by Chaos, due to their incompetence, not by the Imperium.
So it's the Interex fault that Erebus stole it, silly me.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Warhammer 40k wiki says otherwise.
So the wiki trumps the actual source. I'll remember that when I am in a fluff debate.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Sounds like a museum to me.
Yes, also a place that they store weapons for possible use.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
I've read state that the Sword had links to Chaos.
Wiki again I presume?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Quite Rightly what? Such situations have happened in both fiction and real life(obviously without the 40k elements) that were resolved peacefully when both sides didn't start shooting at each other.
This was in reference to the quote below it with the justified response by Tull.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yeah, the Interex don't show themselves to be so called 'enlightened or advanced' here. Instead of trying to calmly using their brains to find out what the hell happened. They allowed the situation to erupt into hostilities by attacking Horus and his team.
The violence started to happen after the Luna Wolves refused to give up their weapons. If the Luna Wolves would have followed their hosts requests in a time of suspicion then things might have gone differently, but they didn't and the Interex acted to deal with a possible threat on their own planet.
Say I walk into your house and take a leak on your carpet, you ask me to stop but I ignore you and proceed to urinate in plant pots and your kitchen sink. Are you going to keep asking me nicely to stop or are you going to lay down the law and throw me out?
Actually yes, it was the Interex' fault that Erebus stole the weapon. What kind of moron leaves a Daemon Weapon in plain view where anyone with the resources and ambition to spare can steal it?
Tadashi wrote: If you've read the novels concerning Jaq Draco, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
Which are a great read, but they are Heretic Tomes, they are the Romeo and Juliet story of 40k and aren't considered canon anymore.
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Tadashi wrote:
Actually yes, it was the Interex' fault that Erebus stole the weapon. What kind of moron leaves a Daemon Weapon in plain view where anyone with the resources and ambition to spare can steal it?
So you lock your favorite teddy bear away in the day because you wub him and like to cwuddle him at night. I break in and steal your bear because I want to give him huggles too and I don't have a bear. It's your fault for me not having a bear that I want to hug so much and making me break in to get it.
As the quote I provided states
... in careful stasis, ... many of their weapons are deemed too lethal to be left beyond securement ...
BTWFYI Chaos wants to deactivate the throne to prove hes dead. And all this stuff about himhelping astromancers or fighting chaos God's is all just theory no peice of fluff or information anywherecan be claimed to be right because they are just opinions of corrupt imperials that went corrupt with power. p.s Tadashi you have to give and take in a disscussion which you never seem to do you have to be right and noone else how is this a disscussion. However i did like your comment on noone can no for sure if he is "undead". Though the only reason he wont be released is because of the corruption of the imperium the emporer could be fine all powerfull but the people who are currently in charge dont want to relinquish their power so they make up the stories of the astropaths and the chaos Gods.
Tadashi wrote: If you've read the novels concerning Jaq Draco, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
Which are a great read, but they are Heretic Tomes, they are the Romeo and Juliet story of 40k and aren't considered canon anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tadashi wrote:
Actually yes, it was the Interex' fault that Erebus stole the weapon. What kind of moron leaves a Daemon Weapon in plain view where anyone with the resources and ambition to spare can steal it?
So you lock your favorite teddy bear away in the day because you wub him and like to cwuddle him at night. I break in and steal your bear because I want to give him huggles too and I don't have a bear. It's your fault for me not having a bear that I want to hug so much and making me break in to get it.
As the quote I provided states
... in careful stasis, ... many of their weapons are deemed too lethal to be left beyond securement ...
No, GW has never actually retconned the Star Child out of existence, so the theory that the compassionate part of Himself that the Emperor cast out when He destroyed Horus, and would oneday restore Him and the Imperium still holds true. The Emperor Himself admitted that He cast that part out of Himself during Draco's audience. And if they're so secure, how did Erebus manage to steal it so easily.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not just between you. If you haven't noticed this is a forum, with other posters. If it was a private discussion. take it to PM. You were commenting on the Interex making alliances with alien races, I just said that it seems to be working out ok for the Tau.
I was talking about the Interex and their love for aliens while ironically in the background an alliance of alien races are plotting for all of humanity everywhere to die. I don't want to discuss about the Tau here. It seems to be working until they hit something that doesn't want to join them like the Orks and the Reek.
So it's the Interex fault that Erebus stole it, silly me.
Yes, it unfortunately is. One can't use the excuse of Erebus using Chaos sorcery to steal the sword cause the the Interex really know about Chaos then they must know about Chaos sorcery and how to defend against it which means they failed to prevent Erebus from stealing the weapon.
So the wiki trumps the actual source. I'll remember that when I am in a fluff debate.
Nice sarcasm . No, wiki's don't trump source but you yourself admit below that Xenobia is a museum.
Yes, also a place that they store weapons for possible use.
You agree with me that its a museum that they foolishly show off to people so if they have the ambition, they can try and steal the weapon.
Wiki again I presume?
Yes.
The violence started to happen after the Luna Wolves refused to give up their weapons. If the Luna Wolves would have followed their hosts requests in a time of suspicion then things might have gone differently, but they didn't and the Interex acted to deal with a possible threat on their own planet.
Say I walk into your house and take a leak on your carpet, you ask me to stop but I ignore you and proceed to urinate in plant pots and your kitchen sink. Are you going to keep asking me nicely to stop or are you going to lay down the law and throw me out?
The Luna Wolves were also in the right in not just giving up there weapons seeing as they are a small group trapped deep in unknown territory who are now making demands that they disarm themselves without explaining why. The host has to at the very least give the people one is giving demands to be disarmed a reason. Horus is acting as a representative for a foreing nation and thus has diplomatic status that have to abided by somewhat in finding out whether they are guilty or not.
Really, the Interex acted hotheaded here and not rationally. Even if they suspect Horus has betrayed them they should have handled it rationally until they can fully prove it or they have the advantage Instead they open fire.
Really, this entire situation doesn't put the Imperium is a bad light, it just shows how misundertstandings which can happen when to different cultures or politics meet can suddenly erupt into war.
Malroke wrote:BTWFYI Chaos wants to deactivate the throne to prove hes dead. And all this stuff about himhelping astromancers or fighting chaos God's is all just theory no peice of fluff or information anywherecan be claimed to be right because they are just opinions of corrupt imperials that went corrupt with power. p.s Tadashi you have to give and take in a disscussion which you never seem to do you have to be right and noone else how is this a disscussion. However i did like your comment on noone can no for sure if he is "undead". Though the only reason he wont be released is because of the corruption of the imperium the emporer could be fine all powerfull but the people who are currently in charge dont want to relinquish their power so they make up the stories of the astropaths and the chaos Gods.
Regarding the Astronomican: 3rd Edition states that the Astronomican is powered by sacrificial psykers, but that the Emperor focuses that energy. Later Editions don't mention it, but they don't contradict it either.
Regarding Astropaths: The information given by Rulebooks from RT to 5th Edition about Astropaths don't contradict each other, actually they support each other. They explicitly state that the Emperor performs the soul-binding.
In other words, the Emperor's still alive, well, sort-off, but He's not dead either. Probably undead.
Malroke wrote:BTWFYI Chaos wants to deactivate the throne to prove hes dead. And all this stuff about himhelping astromancers or fighting chaos God's is all just theory no peice of fluff or information anywherecan be claimed to be right because they are just opinions of corrupt imperials that went corrupt with power. p.s Tadashi you have to give and take in a disscussion which you never seem to do you have to be right and noone else how is this a disscussion. However i did like your comment on noone can no for sure if he is "undead". Though the only reason he wont be released is because of the corruption of the imperium the emporer could be fine all powerfull but the people who are currently in charge dont want to relinquish their power so they make up the stories of the astropaths and the chaos Gods.
What the hell?
So to you. Astropaths, Chaos gods don't exist, they're all lies spread by corrupted politicians?
FW, IIRC, states that the goal of the Chaos gods is to merge the galaxy with the Warp so yeah why bother with trying to break the Golden Throne to prove someone is dead, why bother?
Tadashi wrote:
No, GW has never actually retconned the Star Child out of existence, so the theory that the compassionate part of Himself that the Emperor cast out when He destroyed Horus, and would oneday restore Him and the Imperium still holds true. The Emperor Himself admitted that He cast that part out of Himself during Draco's audience.
I do apologise Tadashi, I thought the Inquistion War trilogy had been re released under the Heretic Tomes label, but it hasn't it's still as it was initially.
Tadashi wrote:how did Erebus manage to steal it so easily.
Do we know how he actually did it or we just know that he stole it?
Personally i like what a chap said up there hes dead but the golden throne was his ace in the hole to give his people hope and he told his most trusted to spread the rumors he was controlling the astronomnican and the astropaths aswell. So he told his closest highest ranking to spread these rumors to give people hope and in this way the emporer is not alive but a peice of him is alive in everyone. The horus heresy fyi was based on the bible 1 third of the angels turning on God (the emporer)
Tadashi wrote:
No, GW has never actually retconned the Star Child out of existence, so the theory that the compassionate part of Himself that the Emperor cast out when He destroyed Horus, and would oneday restore Him and the Imperium still holds true. The Emperor Himself admitted that He cast that part out of Himself during Draco's audience.
I do apologise Tadashi, I thought the Inquistion War trilogy had been re released under the Heretic Tomes label, but it hasn't it's still as it was initially.
Tadashi wrote:how did Erebus manage to steal it so easily.
Do we know how he actually did it or we just know that he stole it?
He stole it...don't know the details. And yes, even if Inquisition Wars has been released as Heretic Tomes, until GW explicitly states that the Star Child is not canon, it's canon. And it was the Emperor Himself who stated that '...the spirit of goodness We cast out of Ourselves...' that guided Draco before Him.
So to you. Astropaths, Chaos gods don't exist, they're all lies spread by corrupted politicians?
i never said this i said if you learn to read properly THE POLITICIANS are SPREADING RUMORS THAT HE IS FIGHTING THE CHAOS GOD'S AND EVERYTHING ELSE. I DID NOT SAY THEY DONT EXIST !! JESUS CHRIST learn to digest information properly and stop making things out of things that arent there
Malroke wrote:Personally i like what a chap said up there hes dead but the golden throne was his ace in the hole to give his people hope and he told his most trusted to spread the rumors he was controlling the astronomnican and the astropaths aswell. So he told his closest highest ranking to spread these rumors to give people hope and in this way the emporer is not alive but a peice of him is alive in everyone. The horus heresy fyi was based on the bible 1 third of the angels turning on God (the emporer)
No, the Golden Throne was a makeshift Webway portal turned life-support system. The Horus Heresy series states so, and GW has recognized this as canon.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, it unfortunately is. One can't use the excuse of Erebus using Chaos sorcery to steal the sword cause the the Interex really know about Chaos then they must know about Chaos sorcery and how to defend against it which means they failed to prevent Erebus from stealing the weapon.
Chaos the what now? Where is it mentioned that Erebus used sorcery? Why even use sorcery?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Xenobia is a museum
Of sorts, yes. But it's also a place that they store weapons in a secure place as well as when required for later use.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:You agree with me that its a museum that they foolishly show off to people so if they have the ambition, they can try and steal the weapon.
To a degree, you could steal from the most secure facility possible if you had the ambition too and the 'museum' was secure to protect the weapons.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
The violence started to happen after the Luna Wolves refused to give up their weapons. If the Luna Wolves would have followed their hosts requests in a time of suspicion then things might have gone differently, but they didn't and the Interex acted to deal with a possible threat on their own planet.
Say I walk into your house and take a leak on your carpet, you ask me to stop but I ignore you and proceed to urinate in plant pots and your kitchen sink. Are you going to keep asking me nicely to stop or are you going to lay down the law and throw me out?
The Luna Wolves were also in the right in not just giving up there weapons seeing as they are a small group trapped deep in unknown territory who are now making demands that they disarm themselves without explaining why. The host has to at the very least give the people one is giving demands to be disarmed a reason. Horus is acting as a representative for a foreing nation and thus has diplomatic status that have to abided by somewhat in finding out whether they are guilty or not.
Really, the Interex acted hotheaded here and not rationally. Even if they suspect Horus has betrayed them they should have handled it rationally until they can fully prove it or they have the advantage Instead they open fire.
Really, this entire situation doesn't put the Imperium is a bad light, it just shows how misundertstandings which can happen when to different cultures or politics meet can suddenly erupt into war.
I'll be round to water your carpets soon
I disagree with you here, but I will say that maybe the situation could have been handled better on both sides. But the Imperium had already waged war on a species under the protectorate of the Interex, the Interex were right to be a bit worried and over zealous.
I give up it doesnt state anything thats the point its why GW left it open for people to make their own points of views and rationals none knows completely what the throne does and everything else about it. So you cannot guarnteenly say its this its that you just can't GW made the plotline this way for everyone to make their own decisions on the 40k universe
It's canon unless GW says otherwise. The series has GW owning the copyright, so why would they endorse something that would make it look like they contradict themselves.
They do contradict themselves now listen very carefully because im not going to say this again they made a fantasy universe with a bit of give and take so people can fill in a few blanks and come to their own conclusions also GW has contradicted themselves many times. Ork's for instance used to carry boltguns and have females
Durza wrote:If they end 40k with the Imperium winning, humanity loses.
No Humanity wins cause with the Imperium's victory the conditions that help the Imperium maintain its power disappear and thus the Imperium will collapse but with no threats to humanity's existence existing anymore, this is not much of a problem.
Yeah, because the High Lords are just going to sit around and let it collapse.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Durza wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Durza wrote:
Why would the Star Child theory be correct when Tzeentchian cultists were the ones to propose it?
That's what the Inquisition wants you to think
That's what the Alpha Legion want you to think.
And that's what the Cabal wanted them to think
Only because that's what Alpharius wanted them to think.
1. He's alive, and does nothing as all his enemies get stronger and all his forces get weaker. Sure he keeps his little beacon lit, but might his super power be more useful doing something that might actually win the war against chaos?
How about compelling all of his followers to sacrifice themselves? That would send a shock through the warp, and then the Emperor could summon himself to the material realm with all that soul energy, or do whatever it is that Part Chaos God/Men do with sacrificed believer soul.
2. He's dead. He was just awesome enough to establish the setting, and then expired so that it would continue indefinitely.
If GW ever continues the storyline, it would, undoubtedly. There would be some tricks up the corpse-god's sleeve though. I personally think his two 'forgotten' Primarchs are going to return with full legions of the Legion of the Damned and simply clean the House of anything chaos, however, that's not stopping the Void Dragon from rearing its head and playing with all the cool little minions worshipping around him.
And then there's Gork (or is it Mork?) that finally kicks Gazgull's rear in gear, wins the Octavian (sp?) war for the Orks and begins stomping around with the most badassed Waaaagh! ever recorded.
And then there's the Nids. Nom Nom Nom Ultra-Oh damnit, Word Bearers got to them first. Hi there Marines Malevonent and Black Templars, Nom Nom Nom.
And then there's the return of the Eldar Exodites (IIRC) that ran away when they created Slaanesh. Don't know what they would do at first though...
And then there's the Necrons in general. I don't think you could keep Trayzn away from collecting the Emperors... um... Spare Parts?
Last but not least is Chaos. Whole lot of family issues there.
Then there's the Tau, who wanted to be your friend, but like the extreme xenophobe you are, said no. Guess you're not going to need those planets near our borders *snatch*.
Personally I would love a Shattered Imperium, each vying with the other for position, the compitition would perhaps re-ignite the stagnant level of Imperial tech and add some differing perspectives to the Human plight.
A bunch of demi-empires that will sort of combine to combat a over all enemy but each is to proud/zealous/ignorant or arrogant to bow to the others, would add some cool potential for new factions and models.
Have a old school hard line Imperial faction at the center, with 3-5 others basd on perhaps Ultramar as a nucleus, a radical, and orthodox and of course various Traitor and seperatists movements, would be fun, after 25 years or so of the same satus quo a little shake up would be very interesting.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Personally I would love a Shattered Imperium, each vying with the other for position, the compitition would perhaps re-ignite the stagnant level of Imperial tech and add some differing perspectives to the Human plight.
The choice GW presents is: 1 imperium or 0 humans.
Shattered imperia are provided by Necrons. They may look close to human skeletons tough..
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:A bunch of demi-empires that will sort of combine to combat a over all enemy but each is to proud/zealous/ignorant or arrogant to bow to the others, would add some cool potential for new factions and models.
"Demi-Empires" Won't combine, they just die one by one until nothing is left.
GW already established the rise and fall of empires and civilizations, the human one would end as another set of dead and lifeless worlds,
only ruins left. Thus no replacement, just a final step over the edge into eternal darkness. Power was distributed so no small "empire" could live, this works to keep them in line but also speeds up the fall of the species if it ever happens. It was never about the political organization alone....
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Have a old school hard line Imperial faction at the center, with 3-5 others based on perhaps Ultramar as a nucleus, a radical, and orthodox and of course various Traitor and seperatists movements, would be fun, after 25 years or so of the same satus quo a little shake up would be very interesting.
Depends who holds the shaker...
Durza wrote:
Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:This galaxy is Emperor's to rule.
Aldo our time now is dark and uncertain - we know this.
Our enemies will never give up, but neither will we.
We will one day stay on our feet and cleanse this galaxy from Aliens, Mutants and Heretics clean.
Because nothing can't stop the Crusade of the Righteous.
The Emperor protects!!!
May his light guide us to victory.
Short answer: no.
Agreed
Lovely. Now we have two deluded optimists.
We surely have more than 2 and most of them aren't imperials.
Unfortunately i'm getting proven right waaaay too often lately
I would find a shattered and disconnected imperium far more interesting than the current one.
Each piece could still travel to, and communicate with nearby sections, but not the whole galaxy at once. Most of them would likely cooperate, from force of habit if nothing else, but would have to deal with their own local threats primarily.
And you wouldn't have Calgar showing up to EVERY minor skirmish to deus ex machina it
@ Coa.
Everything is Tzeentch's hand puppet. Big E is no exception. Fluff supports this, from the non-IOM viewpoint.
So to you. Astropaths, Chaos gods don't exist, they're all lies spread by corrupted politicians?
i never said this i said if you learn to read properly THE POLITICIANS are SPREADING RUMORS THAT HE IS FIGHTING THE CHAOS GOD'S AND EVERYTHING ELSE. I DID NOT SAY THEY DONT EXIST !! JESUS CHRIST learn to digest information properly and stop making things out of things that arent there
No they don't. The local person doesn't even know that the Chaos gods exist you dolt. The church only states that the Emp is the one who shines the light of the Astronomicon and thats all they say.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Chaos the what now? Where is it mentioned that Erebus used sorcery? Why even use sorcery?
I was saying that one can't use the excuse that Erebus may have stolen the sword with the help of sorcery cause the Interex supposedly know about Chaos so they must know about all its magic using nonsense.
Of sorts, yes. But it's also a place that they store weapons in a secure place as well as when required for later use.
Glad you agree with me.
To a degree, you could steal from the most secure facility possible if you had the ambition too and the 'museum' was secure to protect the weapons.
Very remote possibilities.
I'll be round to water your carpets soon
I'll punch you in the face . But for diplomats and politics, things have to be handled differently.
I disagree with you here, but I will say that maybe the situation could have been handled better on both sides. But the Imperium had already waged war on a species under the protectorate of the Interex, the Interex were right to be a bit worried and over zealous.
Which shows that they're not better or enlightened They acted over-zealous and created a situation that never needed to happen.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Debating with Imperial fanatics is like masturbating with a cheese grater...interesting at first, but ultimatly painful.......
Sounds like a Tau fan squealing in pain due to losing .
Malroke wrote:I give up it doesnt state anything thats the point its why GW left it open for people to make their own points of views and rationals none knows completely what the throne does and everything else about it. So you cannot guarnteenly say its this its that you just can't GW made the plotline this way for everyone to make their own decisions on the 40k universe
We have mention in the fluff that the Emp may have created the 'Storm of the Emperor's wrath' and the Inquisition books with Draco. Also an older fluff source has a Tzeentch daemon contemplating that when the Emp finally dies, he will ascend into the Warp where the real war will begin.
Space Crusader wrote: Cant you see?! He is clearly alive! See! He just moved his toe!
Mean nothing, his spirit(I mean his soul) is still alive and thats all that matters.
Durza wrote:
Yeah, because the High Lords are just going to sit around and let it collapse.
If they don't change, it will collapse.
KplKeegan wrote:
Then there's the Tau, who wanted to be your friend, but like the extreme xenophobe you are, said no. Guess you're not going to need those planets near our borders *snatch*.
Typical, Tau fan being butthurt. The Tau empire created the War situation it has with the Imperium by causing Imperial worlds near them to secede from the Imperium. What the hell do you expect the Imperium to do in response? Just sit there and take it, so your 'mary sue' can be awesome.
The Tau empire wants the Imperium to integrate into the Tau empire which is kind of like the Tau empire asking the Eldar empire before the fall to submit to the authority of the Tau empire. Yeah, the idea is full of fail.
Why are people getting so personal? I've been a reader over at B&C for years but have never seen people get so up in arms over a fictional universe and pull close to them, their armies' values and morals, etc.
It's fictional, people. GW has stated that the Emperor is still 'alive' in 'death'. The End. No further interpretation is needed.
Now it's neat to speculize about the future of the imperium and this and that... but some things are set in stone according to GW. And they are the ultimate source of canon.
I'm glad my wife hasn't seen this thread. She would shake her head sadly and probably say the same thing "just play with your plastic little men and be happy".
Space Crusader wrote:Lets stop this stupid fight and go back to playing with our small plastic men.
I was joking with everyone else except of the last poster I replied to, I mean didn't you see my joke emoticons
IronSnake wrote:Why are people getting so personal? I've been a reader over at B&C for years but have never seen people get so up in arms over a fictional universe and pull close to them, their armies' values and morals, etc.
It's fictional, people. GW has stated that the Emperor is still 'alive' in 'death'. The End. No further interpretation is needed.
Now it's neat to speculize about the future of the imperium and this and that... but some things are set in stone according to GW. And they are the ultimate source of canon.
IronSnake wrote:I'm glad my wife hasn't seen this thread. She would shake her head sadly and probably say the same thing "just play with your plastic little men and be happy".
We believe in one Lord, the Emperor, the Almighty, ruler of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, the Emperor of Mankind, the only Lord of creation, eternally begotten of Humanity, Human from Human, Light from Light, true Lord from true Lord, begotten, not made, of one Being with Humanity; through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and came among us. For our sake He has faced down Chaos; He withstood death and was enthroned. To this day He lives on in accordance with the Scriptures; He resides upon Mother Terra and is seated upon the throne of Humanity. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Emperor, the giver of life, who proceeds from Humanity and from Terra, who with Humanity and upon Terra is worshipped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy true and divinely guided Ecclesiarchy. We acknowledge one path for the defense against Chaos. We look for justice for our dead, and the life of the worlds to come. the Creed of the Mankind's Council of Nicene of Holy Terra I like Space Marines, so I won't say that the Emperor is a god, but He's definitely a godlike being who's the Master of Mankind and an example of what a 40k Human should aspire to be. If the ordinary Imperial citizen wants to believe that He's a god, then that's their business.
Like I said, it's a museum of sorts, also a place they can take weapons from if necessary. So I don't agree with you entirely, that it's soul use is as a museum.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Very remote possibilities.
The Outcast Dead broke out of the most secure prison on Terra, a very remote chance, but it happened. Darnath Lysander escaped his Chaos prison, very remote chance, but it happened. Where there is a will there is a way.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:But for diplomats and politics, things have to be handled differently.
If you invited me into your home it would be a different story, oh wait, like the Imperium were.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Which shows that they're not better or enlightened They acted over-zealous and created a situation that never needed to happen.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Like I said, it's a museum of sorts, also a place they can take weapons from if necessary. So I don't agree with you entirely, that it's soul use is as a museum.
That is whats so ad about this. If its a weapons locker, why in all the hells of the multiverse would you display the weapons, especially weapons if one had a brain, one would want to keep secret be shown to everyone who might get ideas to steal the weapons?
The Outcast Dead broke out of the most secure prison on Terra, a very remote chance, but it happened. Darnath Lysander escaped his Chaos prison, very remote chance, but it happened. Where there is a will there is a way.
That prison also fails utterly.
If you invited me into your home it would be a different story, oh wait, like the Imperium were.
What do you mean? Anyway, I state again that in polictics such situations have to be handled differenltly. Also, the Interex attacked Horus and his team while they were on the Interex planet so why where the Interex so worried? Its not like Horus is a Dragon Ball character who can destroy the planet by firing energy balls from his hand.
As did the Imperium
So we agree that both sides just failed in this situation then? I still think the Interex are the bigger failures seeing as they have the pretension to show themselves as morally and socially superior and they just fail when they suffered under pressure.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:That is whats so ad about this. If its a weapons locker, why in all the hells of the multiverse would you display the weapons, especially weapons if one had a brain, one would want to keep secret be shown to everyone who might get ideas to steal the weapons?
As a reminder of what they are and what they can do maybe. Everything was going swimmingly with the Interex until a member of the Imperium decides to steal a weapon, set the place on fire and kill the master of the hall. It might have been naive to display them so willingly, but until the likes of Erebus showed up there was no cause for concern.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:That prison also fails utterly.
So something else the Imperium didn't get right
Corporal_Reznov wrote:What do you mean? Anyway, I state again that in polictics such situations have to be handled differenltly. Also, the Interex attacked Horus and his team while they were on the Interex planet so why where the Interex so worried? Its not like Horus is a Dragon Ball character who can destroy the planet by firing energy balls from his hand.
The Imperium was asked to the Interex home as guests to talk about Terra, unification etc etc. When a situation arose where the Imperium were suspected of the acts, the Imperium weren't gracious and willing to comply, they denied everything and started killing their hosts. Horus might not be able to wipe out a planet on his own but his fleet of ships at anchor above the Interex planet could. They had already laid war on a planet of the Interex before. The Interex were right to be over cautious about the Imperium. If the Imperium wanted to show that they weren't all about using force to bring the Interex into the fold then they should have gone along with the Interex.
If say Horus had accepted the accusations and agreed to an investigation, Erebus would quite possibly have been caught and the Heresy delayed or even averted.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
So we agree that both sides just failed in this situation then? I still think the Interex are the bigger failures seeing as they have the pretension to show themselves as morally and socially superior and they just fail when they suffered under pressure.
Fair enough, i'll agree that both could have handled this situation better, but I deem the Imperium to have failed here.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:That is whats so ad about this. If its a weapons locker, why in all the hells of the multiverse would you display the weapons, especially weapons if one had a brain, one would want to keep secret be shown to everyone who might get ideas to steal the weapons?
As a reminder of what they are and what they can do maybe. Everything was going swimmingly with the Interex until a member of the Imperium decides to steal a weapon, set the place on fire and kill the master of the hall. It might have been naive to display them so willingly, but until the likes of Erebus showed up there was no cause for concern.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:That prison also fails utterly.
So something else the Imperium didn't get right
Corporal_Reznov wrote:What do you mean? Anyway, I state again that in polictics such situations have to be handled differenltly. Also, the Interex attacked Horus and his team while they were on the Interex planet so why where the Interex so worried? Its not like Horus is a Dragon Ball character who can destroy the planet by firing energy balls from his hand.
The Imperium was asked to the Interex home as guests to talk about Terra, unification etc etc. When a situation arose where the Imperium were suspected of the acts, the Imperium weren't gracious and willing to comply, they denied everything and started killing their hosts. Horus might not be able to wipe out a planet on his own but his fleet of ships at anchor above the Interex planet could. They had already laid war on a planet of the Interex before. The Interex were right to be over cautious about the Imperium. If the Imperium wanted to show that they weren't all about using force to bring the Interex into the fold then they should have gone along with the Interex.
If say Horus had accepted the accusations and agreed to an investigation, Erebus would quite possibly have been caught and the Heresy delayed or even averted.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
So we agree that both sides just failed in this situation then? I still think the Interex are the bigger failures seeing as they have the pretension to show themselves as morally and socially superior and they just fail when they suffered under pressure.
Fair enough, i'll agree that both could have handled this situation better, but I deem the Imperium to have failed here.
And displaying them out in the open is just inviting someone to come and steal it...
Pilau Rice wrote: As a reminder of what they are and what they can do maybe. Everything was going swimmingly with the Interex until a member of the Imperium decides to steal a weapon, set the place on fire and kill the master of the hall. It might have been naive to display them so willingly, but until the likes of Erebus showed up there was no cause for concern.
It was only going swimmingly cause no one had any interest in stealing it but when Chaos, who the Interex claim to fight, paid attention to trying to steal it. They succeed utterly.
So something else the Imperium didn't get right
I never said otherwise for that.
The Imperium was asked to the Interex home as guests to talk about Terra, unification etc etc. When a situation arose where the Imperium were suspected of the acts, the Imperium weren't gracious and willing to comply, they denied everything and started killing their hosts. Horus might not be able to wipe out a planet on his own but his fleet of ships at anchor above the Interex planet could. They had already laid war on a planet of the Interex before. The Interex were right to be over cautious about the Imperium. If the Imperium wanted to show that they weren't all about using force to bring the Interex into the fold then they should have gone along with the Interex.
If say Horus had accepted the accusations and agreed to an investigation, Erebus would quite possibly have been caught and the Heresy delayed or even averted.
Can you post a quote about the entire situation along with page number? Cause sources I've read state that the Interex attacked first when Horus didn't give into Interex demands, also the Interex didn't act rationally in that situation by your own quote making demands angrily and not explaining things.
But if the quote you'll post proves me wrong then I will concede on this after I check up on other sources that show your correct
Fair enough, i'll agree that both could have handled this situation better, but I deem the Imperium to have failed here.
That will depend on your next post. Also you haven't replied back to me on the issue of whether the Kinebrach weapon was Chaotic or not, why?
Dytalus wrote:
Tadashi wrote: And displaying them out in the open is just inviting someone to come and steal it...
Man, someone should really tell the Louvre to put the Mona Lisa away.
Completely different situations, the Mona Lisa being stolen affects nothing but a weapon that appears to be Chaotic being stolen is bad news.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
It was only going swimmingly cause no one had any interest in stealing it but when Chaos, who the Interex claim to fight, paid attention to trying to steal it. They succeed utterly.
Round and around we go. No one had any interest in it until the Imperium came along, who were welcomed as lost cousins, and stole it. They had no reason to suspect that the Imperium had bad intentions despite of Murder. They wanted to show the Imperium how they handled weapons, because the Imperium was obviously a warfaring culture.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Cause sources I've read state that the Interex attacked first when Horus didn't give into Interex demands, also the Interex didn't act rationally in that situation by your own quote making demands angrily and not explaining things.
That's exactly my point, the Interex have every right on their own planet to make demands of their guests if their intentions are in question. The Imperiums intentions were in question as soon as they waged war on Murder, despite of their apology.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:But if the quote you'll post proves me wrong then I will concede on this after I check up on other sources that show your correct
What other sources? All you need is the one book that the situation occurs in.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Fair enough, i'll agree that both could have handled this situation better, but I deem the Imperium to have failed here.
That will depend on your next post
So one minute you'll agree and then you won't, dude, is there a point to this? I can convince you as much as you can convince me that the Imperium handled the situation in the correct fashion.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also you haven't replied back to me on the issue of whether the Kinebrach weapon was Chaotic or not, why?
I was awaiting the same of you, why haven't you done it, I asked first as you made the initial declaration that it was a chaos weapon. So be a dear and pull your finger out ey?
Pilau Rice wrote:
Round and around we go. No one had any interest in it until the Imperium came along, who were welcomed as lost cousins, and stole it. They had no reason to suspect that the Imperium had bad intentions despite of Murder. They wanted to show the Imperium how they handled weapons, because the Imperium was obviously a warfaring culture.
No one had any interest cause no one was interested in the stolen blade but when CHAOS not the Imperium itself but had agents in the Imperium armies like Erebus wanted the weapon, they stole it.
That's exactly my point, the Interex have every right on their own planet to make demands of their guests if their intentions are in question. The Imperiums intentions were in question as soon as they waged war on Murder, despite of their apology.
Agreed, is the Interex's right to act in whatever way they want cause its their planet but the way they acted is a diplomatic catastrophe. For example, check out the situation with America and Pakistan or Nato and Pakistan. You'll get what I mean.
What other sources? All you need is the one book that the situation occurs in.
Yes, I have to get my copy of the book in question and ask other 40ker's I know about it. But I'm first waiting for you to post a quote and page number about that entire situation for the record, thats all. Quoting a source is not that hard you know, I do it all the time.
So one minute you'll agree and then you won't, dude, is there a point to this? I can convince you as much as you can convince me that the Imperium handled the situation in the correct fashion.
It appears that neither side handled the situation correctly at all.
I was awaiting the same of you, why haven't you done it, I asked first as you made the initial declaration that it was a chaos weapon. So be a dear and pull your finger out ey?
Oh, sorry I must have missed it . Here are the links to 40k wiki:
The Interex ultimately became enemies of the Imperium after hostilities between the two human civilizations began when the Interex accused a diplomatic party of Luna Wolves led by the Warmaster Horus with breaking into their Hall of Devices, a museum on the Interex world of Xenobia dedicated to weaponry, and stealing a prized Kinebrach blade called an Anathame that was known to have links to Chaos.
The Kinebrach's weapons, in particular, were of interest to the Interex and the Imperium, as they had clear ties to the Chaos powers. One example was a blade known as an Anathame, dedicated to the Chaos God Nurgle. If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Round and around we go. No one had any interest in it until the Imperium came along, who were welcomed as lost cousins, and stole it. They had no reason to suspect that the Imperium had bad intentions despite of Murder. They wanted to show the Imperium how they handled weapons, because the Imperium was obviously a warfaring culture.
No one had any interest cause no one was interested in the stolen blade but when CHAOS not the Imperium itself but had agents in the Imperium armies like Erebus wanted the weapon, they stole it.
It doesn't matter who stole it, the point is if the Interex had reason to suspect the Imperium or Chaos or whoever then they would not have shown them the weapons. As they were acting as long lost friends they trusted the Imperium. Perharps they were wrong not to shoot first and ask questions later, which seems to be what you are saying, that they were wrong to trust the Imperium at all, and that it's ok for someone to abuse trust that is given despite a huge failing, for someone to take advantage and steal from you. And despite of who Erebus was acting for he was there as a member of the forces of the Imperium.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Agreed, is the Interex's right to act in whatever way they want cause its their planet but the way they acted is a diplomatic catastrophe. For example, check out the situation with America and Pakistan or Nato and Pakistan. You'll get what I mean.
They asked the Imperium to hand over their weapons, they refused, what else were the Interex to do? Let a force of heavily armed warriors, that are suspected of crimes, walk around and do what they want?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Quoting a source is not that hard you know, I do it all the time.
You quote Wiki, I quote sources. I've provided numerous quotes from the actual books themselves, have you?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Here are the links to 40k wiki:
The problem with Wikis is that it can be edited by anyone and is their own interpretation of events and descriptions. No where in those official sources is it mentioned that the Anathame blade is a chaos weapon. The connection with Nurgle has been made due to that fact that Erebus gave the sword to Eugan Temba, who is possessed by Nurgle.
Ovion wrote:There's plenty of modern museums with weaponry (including things like tanks, jets, missiles etc) on display, and not all of it is deactivated.
Yeah, but this is a daemon weapon we're talking about here. No 21st century weapon could match that, as it can alter reality itself (at least partly).
Pilau Rice wrote:
It doesn't matter who stole it, the point is if the Interex had reason to suspect the Imperium or Chaos or whoever then they would not have shown them the weapons. As they were acting as long lost friends they trusted the Imperium. Perharps they were wrong not to shoot first and ask questions later, which seems to be what you are saying, that they were wrong to trust the Imperium at all, and that it's ok for someone to abuse trust that is given despite a huge failing, for someone to take advantage and steal from you. And despite of who Erebus was acting for he was there as a member of the forces of the Imperium.
What? No, thats not what I mean at all. My entire point has been why did the Interex have the Chaos Blade, if it was a Chaos blade(this is in doubt), in a museum to be stolen by anyone who wanted it, thats all. From that one quote you gave the Interex officer acted in irrationally screaming at foreign dignitaries, which is what Horus and his team are, to disarm without giving a reason for why they needed to be disarmed which in politics is a no no.
They asked the Imperium to hand over their weapons, they refused, what else were the Interex to do? Let a force of heavily armed warriors, that are suspected of crimes, walk around and do what they want?
Negotiate, compromise, keep them under guard, instead of 'kill them all!!' See what I mean in not handling the situation well at all.
You quote Wiki, I quote sources. I've provided numerous quotes from the actual books themselves, have you?
For this issue, no. All I asking is a quote of the entire situation either in this thread or by pm if its not a problem for you cause it will take me 2 days to get the book in question as I have to physically go and get it. My current internet connection doesn't allow downloads.
The problem with Wikis is that it can be edited by anyone and is their own interpretation of events and descriptions. No where in those official sources is it mentioned that the Anathame blade is a chaos weapon. The connection with Nurgle has been made due to that fact that Erebus gave the sword to Eugan Temba, who is possessed by Nurgle.
So you're saying that the blade wasn't a Chaos weapon then, just to be clear and for the record?
SO, I have not read the wiki or the book in question, but this is what I understand of the argument so far:
1. It is always the victims fault when a crime is committed.
2. A person has a right to do whatever he wants if he owns superior force.
3. Primary sources are less reliable than second had sources.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:What? No, thats not what I mean at all. My entire point has been why did the Interex have the Chaos Blade, if it was a Chaos blade(this is in doubt), in a museum to be stolen by anyone who wanted it, thats all. From that one quote you gave the Interex officer acted in irrationally screaming at foreign dignitaries, which is what Horus and his team are, to disarm without giving a reason for why they needed to be disarmed which in politics is a no no.
So they are also wrong to follow orders and arrest suspected criminals now? Tule did give Loken some form of explanation when requested, despite it being somewhat garbled. But the Interex were under siege at that point, with everything pointing towards the Imperium.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Negotiate, compromise, keep them under guard, instead of 'kill them all!!' See what I mean in not handling the situation well at all.
And how exactly do you keep armed warriors under guard? This is what the Interex would have achieved if the Imperium would have handed over their weapons, showing good faith and compliance. But they didn't, leaving the Interex no option, see what I mean about not handling the situation well at all?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
For this issue, no. All I asking is a quote of the entire situation either in this thread or by pm if its not a problem for you cause it will take me 2 days to get the book in question as I have to physically go and get it. My current internet connection doesn't allow downloads.
I've given you page numbers in my quotes, read around that area in two days, give you something to look forward to.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So you're saying that the blade wasn't a Chaos weapon then, just to be clear and for the record?
Unless it's stated somewhere other than the Horus Heresy series the Anathame is a sentient weapon created by the Kinebrach, so no, as far as I know it's not a Chaos weapon.
CpatTom wrote:SO, I have not read the wiki or the book in question, but this is what I understand of the argument so far:
1. It is always the victims fault when a crime is committed.
I had thought that the blade stolen was a Chaos blade which being shown off in a museum is the highest of stupidities and is infact a fault of the Interex if so.
2. A person has a right to do whatever he wants if he owns superior force.
When did I say that?
3. Primary sources are less reliable than second had sources.
If you actually read my discussion with Pilau Rice, I've been asking him to give me quotes so I can find out what truly happened but he refuses to do so and just taunts me by saying read the book. I want the quotes so we can truly settle the record straight of what truly happened straight from the source.
Pilau Rice wrote:
So they are also wrong to follow orders and arrest suspected criminals now?
The way it was handled was garbage, thats all I'm saying.
Tule did give Loken some form of explanation when requested, despite it being somewhat garbled. But the Interex were under siege at that point, with everything pointing towards the Imperium.
An officer who can't explain the situation clearly, no wonder everything went to frak. But when he asked the Imperials to disarm, they asked him why and he said he didn't need to give them a reason, thats what I have a problem with.
And the Interex were under siege by who?
And how exactly do you keep armed warriors under guard?
By being armed yourself.
This is what the Interex would have achieved if the Imperium would have handed over their weapons, showing good faith and compliance. But they didn't, leaving the Interex no option, see what I mean about not handling the situation well at all?
There are ways it could have been handled but it appears that neither side did them and allowed the situation to escalate into total war.
Look at it from the Imperial's perspective, you are in the middle of unknown territory and have just been molested by the locals who are screaming at you to let go of your weapons and accusing you of stealing something from them and they appear agitated and hostile. Would you, without hindsight, really want to disarm?
I've given you page numbers in my quotes, read around that area in two days, give you something to look forward to.
You're such a hardass, I can respect that . Fine, I'll go to my parent's house and get the freaking book, a trip that will cost me money .
Unless it's stated somewhere other than the Horus Heresy series the Anathame is a sentient weapon created by the Kinebrach, so no, as far as I know it's not a Chaos weapon.
You have a point. Okay, what makes the blade so special that it can wound Horus?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:It appears so later that you skipped. But when he asked the Imperials to disarm, they asked him why and he said he didn't need to give them a reason, thats what I have a problem with.
Perhaps they should have, but the Imperium proved on Murder that they like to shoot first and then deal with the consequences, would you risk that?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:And the Interex were under siege by who?
We know as the reader that is was Erebus, but they don't know, everything points to the Imperium.
The Keeper and Hall of Devices was set on fire which were fine until the Imperium showed up.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:By being armed yourself.
And how does that work? There is a reason why they don't allow inmates in prisons to have weapons. It's so that they don't kill the prison guards and escape.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Look at it from the Imperial's perspective, you are in the middle of unknown territory and have just been molested by the locals who are screaming at you to let go of your weapons and accusing you of stealing something from them and they appear agitated and hostile. Would you, without hindsight, really want to disarm?
I see this, but would the Imperium not do the same if the Interex had done so on Terra? No, they would not have even asked to disarm them. Horus wanted to try peaceful negotiations, but when it came down to it he couldn't trust the Interex. It's not like Horus, if things did go bad should they have offered up their weapons, couldn't call down reinforcements.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:You're such a hardass, I can respect that
I'm at work and don't currently have the book with me.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
You have a point but then why did Chaos still this blade? What was so special about them?
Because perhaps it's the only thing that could lay low a Primarch, apart from maybe a Cyclonic torpedo or another Primarch. But they aren't very subtle and would probably result in a) Chaos plan being revealed and b) the death of Horus who they needed.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps they should have, but the Imperium proved on Murder that they like to shoot first and then deal with the consequences, would you risk that?
Really it seems like your just making excuses for the Interex.
We know as the reader that is was Erebus, but they don't know, everything points to the Imperium.
The Keeper and Hall of Devices was set on fire which were fine until the Imperium showed up.
I was asking who were the Interex under siege by?
And how does that work? There is a reason why they don't allow inmates in prisons to have weapons. It's so that they don't kill the prison guards and escape.
Both sides point weapon at each other so as to keep the other covered. The situation is explained to all sides satisfaction and move on from there.
I see this, but would the Imperium not do the same if the Interex had done so on Terra? No, they would not have even asked to disarm them.
Have any proof of this?
Horus wanted to try peaceful negotiations, but when it came down to it he couldn't trust the Interex. It's not like Horus, if things did go bad should they have offered up their weapons, couldn't call down reinforcements.
Of course Horus didn't trust the Interex. No politician or countries of even our modern world trust each other. Thats why things are handled delicately so as to try and prevent little incidents from exploding into major wars and everything is done behind the scenes with lots of pretending to be friends and being polite to each other.
Also, are the Interex really that weak? Don't they have any starships of their own to oppose or at least stalemate the Imperials?
I'm at work and don't currently have the book with me.
Its fine.
Because perhaps it's the only thing that could lay low a Primarch, apart from maybe a Cyclonic torpedo or another Primarch. But they aren't very subtle and would probably result in a) Chaos plan being revealed and b) the death of Horus who they needed.
Funny enough, a Chaos player also assumed that the blade was daemonic
Durza wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Durza wrote:They stole it because it could wound Horus.
I really got to work on my english. I mean what makes the blade so special that it can wound Horus?
I'm not sure. I assumed it was daemonic. If not, the whole 'say someone's name' thing doesn't really work. Maybe it was just really sharp.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Really it seems like your just making excuses for the Interex.
Not entirely, i'm just trying to convey the other side of the story, as you are with the Imperium.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:I was asking who were the Interex under siege by?
And I said, until proven otherwise, the Imperium.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Both sides point weapon at each other so as to keep the other covered. The situation is explained to all sides satisfaction and move on from there.
Yes, because pointing weapons at each other is how all situations are resolved.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Have any proof of this?
Not really, but do you have proof that they wouldn't?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Of course Horus didn't trust the Interex. No politician or countries of even our modern world trust each other. Thats why things are handled delicately so as to try and prevent little incidents from exploding into major wars and everything is done behind the scenes with lots of pretending to be friends and being polite to each other.
If this is the case it's surprising how any planets willingly joined the Imperium during the Great Crusade if there was no trust. Perhaps the Interex should just have attacked Horus fleet straight away. Once again shoot first and ask questions later seems to be your way of thinking.
How is someone killing one of your civilians, burning down a valued building and stealing an artifact small? It doesn't matter what the crime was, the forces of Horus decided not to assist the Interex and left them with no choice but to use force.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also, are the Interex really that weak? Don't they have any starships of their own to oppose or at least stalemate the Imperials?
P294 in False Gods seems to say that they get defeated by the Imperium in the end. If the Imperium is good at one thing, it's beating up on weaker races
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Funny enough, a Chaos player also assumed that the blade was daemonic
It could be, but there isn't a source to say that it is a Chaos weapon as far as I know, just a sentient blade created by the Kinebrach.
P294 in False Gods seems to say that they get defeated by the Imperium in the end. If the Imperium is good at one thing, it's beating up on weaker races
All 40k races are good at beating up weaker races. Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. 40k is survival of the fittest, only the strongest races can survive and claim a place as a galactic power.
The "imperium" did not steal the chaos blade. Erebus did. And he had been swayed by chaos without Horus' knowledge for some time before.
The interex handled the situation incorrectly and started a fight with Horus' men. Bad choice. Horus at that time was not under the influence of corruption and chaos and would have more than likely helped the interex track down the person who stole the blade. The interex jumped to conclusions and started the fight. From the Interex Warhammer 40k wiki:
"The Interex's government was in diplomatic talks with Horus and his peers when Erebus of the Word Bearers, a Space Marine Chaplain tainted by the powers of Chaos Undivided, infiltrated an Interex museum of technology called the Hall of Devices housing alien artefacts and weapons, stole the Kinebrach Anathame and rigged the building to explode, which only affirmed the Interex's initial fears about the Imperial forces and inaugurated an unfortunate war between the two human cultures."
Yes, they suspected all of them of foul play. But they did not follow correct diplomatic procedure afterwards.
Tadashi wrote:
All 40k races are good at beating up weaker races. Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. 40k is survival of the fittest, only the strongest races can survive and claim a place as a galactic power.
And my comment was made in jest, you forgot to include the '' in your quote.
The Imperium are also pretty good at beating up other races, as well as getting beaten up by them too.
IronSnake wrote:The "imperium" did not steal the chaos blade. Erebus did. And he had been swayed by chaos without Horus' knowledge for some time before.
The interex handled the situation incorrectly and started a fight with Horus' men. Bad choice. Horus at that time was not under the influence of corruption and chaos and would have more than likely helped the interex track down the person who stole the blade. The interex jumped to conclusions and started the fight. From the Interex Warhammer 40k wiki:
"The Interex's government was in diplomatic talks with Horus and his peers when Erebus of the Word Bearers, a Space Marine Chaplain tainted by the powers of Chaos Undivided, infiltrated an Interex museum of technology called the Hall of Devices housing alien artefacts and weapons, stole the Kinebrach Anathame and rigged the building to explode, which only affirmed the Interex's initial fears about the Imperial forces and inaugurated an unfortunate war between the two human cultures."
Yes, they suspected all of them of foul play. But they did not follow correct diplomatic procedure afterwards.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Not entirely, i'm just trying to convey the other side of the story, as you are with the Imperium.
Understood.
And I said, until proven otherwise, the Imperium.
Okay, from what I can interpret the Interex thought the Impeium stole their weapon and set their building on fire and thus felt that they were under siege. Is this what you're saying?
Yes, because pointing weapons at each other is how all situations are resolved.
Ever heard of the term M.A.D? Thats what I was thinking with both sides keeping their guns on each other until the situation can be explained.
Not really, but do you have proof that they wouldn't?
Then we are at an impasse on this issue and thus should stop talking about that.
If this is the case it's surprising how any planets willingly joined the Imperium during the Great Crusade if there was no trust. Perhaps the Interex should just have attacked Horus fleet straight away. Once again shoot first and ask questions later seems to be your way of thinking.
Just because you don't like someone or trust them doesn't mean you don't deal with them as 'allies' or be at peace with them. Do you have any understanding of politics whatsoever?
How is someone killing one of your civilians, burning down a valued building and stealing an artifact small?
Yes, it is small. In real world politics which Galactic politics should emphasize even more, the death of a single person is irrelevant.
It doesn't matter what the crime was, the forces of Horus decided not to assist the Interex and left them with no choice but to use force.
No. The Interex acted foolishly, not that the Imperials acted better, that let a situation that could have been decided peacefully turn into a bloodbath. Why are you changing positions? Earlier, you agreed with me that both sides acted foolishly. Demanding a foreign diplomat to just disarm without giving reasons and not even giving good reasons(I mean saying it garbled) is just bad form. Instead of trying to handle things diplomatically against a power superior to them, they decide to go the route of "must kill".
P294 in False Gods seems to say that they get defeated by the Imperium in the end. If the Imperium is good at one thing, it's beating up on weaker races
Thats just pathetic. So much for the "great Interex".
It could be, but there isn't a source to say that it is a Chaos weapon as far as I know, just a sentient blade created by the Kinebrach.
Thats interesting. Is it sentient due to AI? Because if not, then the only answer is daemonic. Unless, you have a better answer?.
Tadashi wrote:
All 40k races are good at beating up weaker races. Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. 40k is survival of the fittest, only the strongest races can survive and claim a place as a galactic power.
And my comment was made in jest, you forgot to include the '' in your quote.
The Imperium are also pretty good at beating up other races, as well as getting beaten up by them too.
IronSnake wrote:The "imperium" did not steal the chaos blade. Erebus did. And he had been swayed by chaos without Horus' knowledge for some time before.
The interex handled the situation incorrectly and started a fight with Horus' men. Bad choice. Horus at that time was not under the influence of corruption and chaos and would have more than likely helped the interex track down the person who stole the blade. The interex jumped to conclusions and started the fight. From the Interex Warhammer 40k wiki:
"The Interex's government was in diplomatic talks with Horus and his peers when Erebus of the Word Bearers, a Space Marine Chaplain tainted by the powers of Chaos Undivided, infiltrated an Interex museum of technology called the Hall of Devices housing alien artefacts and weapons, stole the Kinebrach Anathame and rigged the building to explode, which only affirmed the Interex's initial fears about the Imperial forces and inaugurated an unfortunate war between the two human cultures."
Yes, they suspected all of them of foul play. But they did not follow correct diplomatic procedure afterwards.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Ever heard of the term M.A.D? Thats what I was thinking with both sides keeping their guns on each other until the situation can be explained.
Yes, once again, because pointing guns at each other is how situations which could lead to violence get resolved.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Just because you don't like someone or trust them doesn't mean you don't deal with them as 'allies' or be at peace with them. Do you have any understanding of politics whatsoever?
Do you?
Clearly you're opinion is might is right and the Imperium can do no wrong. The Interex extended a hand to Horus and the Imperium and when things went awry because of the actions of one of their members, they tore the hand off. They could have acted as peaceful ambassadors but they didn't, first sign of trouble and out come the guns.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, it is small. In real world politics which Galactic politics should emphasize even more, the death of a single person is irrelevant.
Well i'm glad you're not in charge if that's your attitude.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:INo. The Interex acted foolishly, not that the Imperials acted better, that let a situation that could have been decided peacefully turn into a bloodbath. Why are you changing positions? Earlier, you agreed with me that both sides acted foolishly. Demanding a foreign diplomat to just disarm without giving reasons and not even giving good reasons(I mean saying it garbled) is just bad form. Instead of trying to handle things diplomatically against a power superior to them, they decide to go the route of "must kill".
And so is allowing one of your members to go off murder, steal and destroy. The Imperium acted foolishly, Horus wanted to try diplomacy, when they were accused of crimes they weren't willing to comply with the instructions of their hosts i.e to disarm. The Imperial forces left the Interex with no choice. I haven't changed position at all, I agreed that both handed the situation badly. But neither side gave the other much choice.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Thats interesting. Is it sentient due to AI? Because if not, then the only answer is daemonic. Unless, you have a better answer?.
Why is the only answer daemonic when it's not described as being so? Something can be sentient without it being a daemon or a machine. We're talking about a universe here where pretty much anything is possible.
Brother Coa wrote:The most funny thing is that the only thing keeping Mankind together is their faith in the God Emperor.
I disagree. Humanity, as a naturally social being would still band together, if not on so grand a scale. In fact, if not for the Emperor, humans could have turned out to be a far less genocidal race.
Had the Emperor not united mankind, humanity would be in shambles. Much in the same way it was before unification. Waiting in weakness for the stronger races of the galaxy to consume them.
IronSnake wrote:Had the Emperor not united mankind, humanity would be in shambles. Much in the same way it was before unification.
Imagine all Mankind colonies across the stars as an Empire for itself. Now devide those empires to hundred of little states just like our Earth today.
Without the Emperor our race would be extinct. I don't see how this is a bad thing, to unite our race so that we can survive?
GW has basically laid out the story to say as much.
The Emperor = good
The High Lords of Terra = bad
The Emperor is in a position he never wanted to be in. And it was never his intention to be praised and worshipped as a God, even though he is one. This is the way the story is laid out. GW has never said "The emperor is evil and had bad intentions when unifying humanity mwuahahaha".
Captain Knight wrote:Most people think that the imperium is going to fall, but really is it. The great threat of the Tyranids is doomed as the necrons dont want pesky bugs running over their galaxy. The tau will be masacred by the Tyrandis before the crons get 'em. The dark eldar will destroy the remenants of the eldar whilst they weaken the dark eldar so they can be destroyed by the necrons and space marines. The orks will be jealous of all the fighting and go to war with everyone and get killed by the crons before the metal warriors move onto chaos and then there will be one epic clash between the imperium the orks and the crons who will win?
IronSnake wrote:GW has basically laid out the story to say as much.
The Emperor = good
The High Lords of Terra = bad
The Emperor is in a position he never wanted to be in. And it was never his intention to be praised and worshipped as a God, even though he is one. This is the way the story is laid out. GW has never said "The emperor is evil and had bad intentions when unifying humanity mwuahahaha".
I disagree with the inherent superiority of an individual because of their genetic make-up. The Emperor believed that sentient life that wasn't human was inferior. The Emperor was plenty "bad" by my definition. The Emperor was Good for humanity, but maybe humanity isn't what is the greatest good for the galaxy.
IronSnake wrote:Had the Emperor not united mankind, humanity would be in shambles. Much in the same way it was before unification.
Imagine all Mankind colonies across the stars as an Empire for itself. Now devide those empires to hundred of little states just like our Earth today.
Without the Emperor our race would be extinct. I don't see how this is a bad thing, to unite our race so that we can survive?
Humanity wouldn't have gone extinct without the Emperor. It might not have developed as fast, and it certainly wouldn't be dependant on a space dragon for its technology, but it'd still be reasonably united, and probably be holding up better since it would have a smaller area to be assaulted by evils, it wouldn't have genetically engineered super soldiers trying to kill it, and it might have allied with the Eldar and Tau when they encountered them.
IronSnake wrote:GW has basically laid out the story to say as much.
The Emperor = good
The High Lords of Terra = bad
The Emperor is in a position he never wanted to be in. And it was never his intention to be praised and worshipped as a God, even though he is one. This is the way the story is laid out. GW has never said "The emperor is evil and had bad intentions when unifying humanity mwuahahaha".
Really, it's more
The Emperor = kind of a douche, and may have doomed us all by turning seven of his demigod sons to Chaos by being a prick to them. The other two were kind of bound to be evil sooner or later.
The High Lords = bad.
The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.
IronSnake wrote:The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.
The big picture. Anything that wasn't like him deserved to die, because it was different. That was the big picture.
IronSnake wrote:The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.
The big picture. Anything that wasn't like him deserved to die, because it was different. That was the big picture.
This.
He makes anybody else look nice and reasonable by comparison. He and his have probably offed more species than the Necrons, back when they were into that kind of thing, and for less good reasons
IronSnake wrote:The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.
Or maybe the ones not swayed by Chaos were the ones that the Emperor didn't turn himself or simply let the gods do it for him? Horus was totally loyal until the gods stopped the great game to sway him. Magnus would have remained loyal if if the Emperor hadn't sent Russ to arrest him when the Emperor was totally capable of talking to him from where he was. Lorgar worshipped the Emperor, and the Emperor decided to let him down gently by massacring a city to prove a point. Angron could have been a staunch ally if the Emperor had just brought the gladiators with them instead of abandoning them to die. Fulgrim... probably shouldn't have picked up that sword, but Slaanesh definitely had a hand in his legion's doom.
The roles of the primarchs could easily have been reversed.
Yes, once again, because pointing guns at each other is how situations which could lead to violence get resolved.
It worked well enough on RL Earth and thas was just a suggestion.
Do you?
Clearly you're opinion is might is right and the Imperium can do no wrong. The Interex extended a hand to Horus and the Imperium and when things went awry because of the actions of one of their members, they tore the hand off. They could have acted as peaceful ambassadors but they didn't, first sign of trouble and out come the guns.
Where are you getting these ideas that I favor this and that or that I think the Imperium were in the right on this issue?
I feel that both sides failed on this issue. What the both of us are discussing is who failed more in causing the bloodbath to insue.
Well i'm glad you're not in charge if that's your attitude.
Its not my attitude. I'm just stating an unpleasant fact about politics and power that is a fact of life whether we like it or not. Take a look at the situation with Pakistan and the US for what I mean.
And so is allowing one of your members to go off murder, steal and destroy. The Imperium acted foolishly, Horus wanted to try diplomacy, when they were accused of crimes they weren't willing to comply with the instructions of their hosts i.e to disarm. The Imperial forces left the Interex with no choice. I haven't changed position at all, I agreed that both handed the situation badly. But neither side gave the other much choice.
I agree utterly on this. What am I discussing is who fouled up more in escalating the situation from a dispute cause Horus and his team didn't want to disarm into a firefight.
Why is the only answer daemonic when it's not described as being so? Something can be sentient without it being a daemon or a machine. We're talking about a universe here where pretty much anything is possible.
Okay, then please give your theory on why is it sentient.
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Durza wrote: Humanity wouldn't have gone extinct without the Emperor. It might not have developed as fast, and it certainly wouldn't be dependant on a space dragon for its technology, but it'd still be reasonably united, and probably be holding up better since it would have a smaller area to be assaulted by evils, it wouldn't have genetically engineered super soldiers trying to kill it, and it might have allied with the Eldar and Tau when they encountered them.
Do any of you here read the fluff for Christ's sakes? The Great Crusade was not truly meant to conquer new territory for humanity, it was a reclamation and reunification campaign. Did any of you read about the DAoT era? Humanity was on the ascendant in that era and just behind the Eldar empire in tech and makes the Tau look like children in comparison. Where else do you guys think all these human planets came from? The Emp wanted to conquer the galaxy cause human worlds have been found nearly everywhere in the galaxy.
It would not have allied with the Eldar cause the Eldar are also Xenophobic and consider humans to be lesser beings just like they consider everyone else. As for the Tau, in your dreams. If Humanity continued to advance in the time of 10,000 years they would have tech that make Tau once again look like children.
The tech stagnation of the Imperium is the fault of the Admech and not the Emperor.
CpatTom wrote: The big picture. Anything that wasn't like him deserved to die, because it was different. That was the big picture.
Have evidence or just spouting your views?
Ascalam wrote: This.
He makes anybody else look nice and reasonable by comparison. He and his have probably offed more species than the Necrons, back when they were into that kind of thing, and for less good reasons
Wrong. If you read the Dark Eldar codex, before they became the Dark Eldar they stole suns from across the galaxy and threw them into the Webway. This 'little' act killed millions of species. Hell, the Eldar empire itself ruled the galaxy for millions of years, who knows what they had to do to keep upstarts below them? Maybe wipe out a species as a lesson to the others. Next, the Orks have been rampaging across the galaxy for millions of years, who knows how many races they have killed in that time. We have evidence of other races xenociding each other.
Also the OldCrons nearly wiped the galaxy clean casue they hated the fact that they died. Yeah, that was a better reason then what the Emperor had . What are you smoking to cloud up that head of yours and where can I find some?
I HAVE read the dark eldar codex. I seem to have missed the paragraph that said that they killed millions of sentient species. Perhaps you can quote it ?
The vast majority of solar systems in the galaxy are not life supporting, as far as we can tell. Most don't have even remotely habitable conditions. They still have suns in them, which can be jacked by enterprising Old Eldar
In fact i don't recall the DE codex mentioning a single race being wiped out by them. The system 'withers and dies' with its sun removed, yes, but there is no mention of it being an inhabited system in there. They might have been, but it's not specified that they were.
The IOM has actually been specificially noted as having exterminated entire races just because they were filthy xenos. Sometimes right after allying with them to take out another race/force.
The ancient Eldar may have killed off species, but i doubt it, since the Orks (for example) are still around, and they're probably the most annoying race out there to the Eldar mindset
They didn't even wipe out their ancient enemies, the necrons, but just let them snooze on.
The orks may well have killed off other races, but as we weren't talking about the orks it's kindof irrelevant. I never said xenos don't kill off species either. Nice strawmanning there.
I said that the IOM has likely killed off more species than the Necrons.
IOM- Kills you just because you exist and aren't both human and an Emperor-worshipper. Will happily kill of its own species in droves on suspicion of thought-crime.
Orks- Like a good fight. They have no reason to wipe out a race entire, as this deprives them of said good fight. They are more prone to enslaving than systematic extermiantion.
Eldar- CW - Don't go in for wholescale extermination as a whole. Some craftworlds like the idea, but they don't have the resources to wipe an entire space-faring race without ludicrously good reason.
Dark Eldar- Why exterminate a whole race? It'd be like exterminating every chicken on earth, when you like the taste of chicken, and like torturing chickens. They have absolutely no reason to systematically exterminate any race, as it deprives them of a source of sustenance and labor.
Tau- Ok, they might.. Generally they prefer to recruit though.
Daemons - See Dark Eldar. Why deprive yourself of playthings and potential energy sources.
CSM- They might, but the only ones they have a major grudge against is Humanity, and they lack the resources. I could see them wiping a minor race out of pique though.
Necrons- under new canon fluff they want everyone serving them, not exterminated. I could see them exterminating a race in extreme circumstances, as a lesson to others, but it would be a calculated decision, not a kneejerk religious fanatic thing. Oldcron fluff is no longer canon, dude.
Ascalam wrote:I HAVE read the dark eldar codex. I seem to have missed the paragraph that said that they killed millions of sentient species. Perhaps you can quote it ?
I'm at school right now and thus can't but I can give you a wiki quote.
c. M18 - M20 The Twilight Cults - Those Eldar leading the new paradigm of total self-indulgence and the pursuit of hedonism rise in status and power within the Eldar empire until they can secede entirely from the Eldar settlements in realspace. They take up permanent residence in the Webway, from which they can plumb the depths of their decadence undistrubed by the puritans and weaklings among their own kind who warn of the dangers of such a path for the future of the Eldar race. Over time their sovereign estates within the Labyrinthine Dimension grow into entire sub-realms of the Webway, each of which is powered by the energy of a sun stolen from realspace. The star systems plunged into darkness by the Eldar's sun-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, condemning millions of species to death, but the Eldar care nothing for the damage they cause.
Sorry about this. But I have school and thus can't run back to my BH to get the damn book.
he vast majority of solar systems in the galaxy are not life supporting, as far as we can tell. Most don't have even remotely habitable conditions. They still have suns in them, which can be jacked by enterprising Old Eldar
In fact i don't recall the DE codex mentioning a single race being wiped out by them. The system 'withers and dies' with its sun removed, yes, but there is no mention of it being an inhabited system in there. They might have been, but it's not specified that they were.
Who knows *shrug*?
The IOM has actually been speficially noted as having exterminated entire races.
Yes, we know that already. Whats the point of say this?
The ancient Eldar may have killed off species, but i doubt it, since the Orks (for example) are still around, and they're probably the most annoying race out there to the Eldar mindset
The Orks posed not threat to the Eldar, they posed a threat to everyone else. The fact of the matter is that empires rise and fall all the time. And in a time period of millions of years, you honestly think an empire can stay that long in power without committing heinous acts? I doubt that the Eldar empire didn't commit atrocites so as to keep their power and I don't begrudge for that. They did what they did to maitain their power like humans do the same thing.
They didn't even wipe out their ancient enemies, the necrons, but just let them snooze on.
I believe that was because they couldn't find most of the Tombworlds and thought it bes to leave them alone so as to not wake them up and have to fight the Necrons again.
The orks may well have killed off other races, but as we weren't talking about the orks it's kindof irrelevant.
No its not.
I never said xenos don't kill off species either. Nice strawmanning there.
I said that the IOM has likely killed off more species than the Necrons.
I feel in terms of Extermination numbers, OldCrons rate first, the Eldar rate second, IOM and Orks are neck and neck with Orks slightly ahead and Tau at the very last with 0.5 .
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Ascalam wrote:
IOM- Kills you just because you exist and aren't both human and an Emperor-worshipper. Will happily kill of its own species in droves on suspicion of thought-crime.
Agreed.
Orks- Like a good fight. They have no reason to wipe out a race entire, as this deprives them of said good fight. They are more prone to enslaving than systematic extermiantion.
Space Marine the video game showed otherwise.
Eldar- CW - Don't go in for wholescale extermination as a whole. Some craftworlds like the idea, but they don't have the resources to wipe an entire space-faring race without ludicrously good reason.
They would wipe out races if they had the numbers and resources but they don't. The only reason they need is if it benefits the Eldar. Anyway, I was talking about the Eldar empire.
Dark Eldar- Why exterminate a whole race? It'd be like exterminating every chicken on earth, when you like the taste of chicken, and like torturing chickens. They have absolutely no reason to systematically exterminate any race, as it deprives them of a source of sustenance and labor.
Stealing of stars can does kill races you know.
Tau- Ok, they might.. Generally they prefer to recruit though.
They wiped out the 'Reek' from a star-system for some reason that we don't know.
Daemons - See Dark Eldar. Why deprive yourself of playthings and potential energy sources.
Wrong. Killing entire species is fun for daemons and the souls of the species in question goes into the warp to be tortured and devoured by daemons.
CSM- They might, but the only ones they have a major grudge against is Humanity, and they lack the resources. I could see them wiping a minor race out of pique though.
Agreed.
Necrons- under new canon fluff they want everyone serving them, not exterminated. I could see them exterminating a race in extreme circumstances, as a lesson to others, but it would be a calculated decision, not a kneejerk religious fanatic thing.
Agreed.
Oldcron fluff is no longer canon, dude.
I know it isn't. I was just making a point.
Still the NewCrons are responsible for the death of the Old Ones and maybe because of them an Enslaver plague either swept over the galaxy or over only the Old Ones.
Oldcron fluff is no longer canon. Newcron fluff is (more's the pity)
Read my post above again. Your wikiquote is inaccurate. The codex says jack about the systems being inhabited or condemning millions of species to death.
The IOM is the only race out there (now the oldcrons are no longer canon) that i know of that has been specifically mentioned to wipe whole races out of bigotry. I'd say that is relevant.
Actually i can readily believe that the Old Eldar couul run an empire ofr millenia without atrocities, as their tech was light years ahead of everyone else. As there is nothing in the fluff saying they ever committed any atrocities (at least until the runup to the Fall) there weren't any, officially, unless you have some that you can quote?
Re the necrons: Possibly. I find it doubtful that the Old Eldar couldn't find the Tombworlds if they went looking for them, between ludicrously high tech and psyker ability. They let them lie when they were already beating them in a war before they went down for their nap, possibly because they were tired of war and could live with a respite.
Where in the fluff does it piut the eldar seconf only tom the Oldcrons in species destruction? I seem to remember in the oldcron codex that they were described as wantinfg to preserve what was left of life in the galaxy, if you're going to insist on using the oldcron book's fluff, and there is nothing else in the fluff that i've run across that makes themnearly as triggerhappy on the exterminatus button as the IOM.
The orks are also never specified in the fluff as having commited total xenocide on a race, though you're welcome to quote fluff to contradict me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: we're playing post tennis with the edits here, so i'll give it a minute and come back
Ascalam wrote:Oldcron fluff is no longer canon. Newcron fluff is (more's the pity)
I know that. Thats why I said NewCrons and OldCrons.
Read my post above again. Your wikiquote is inaccurate. The codex says jack about the systems being inhabited or condemning millions of species to death.
I could have sworn the codex said that, I may have read it wrong. Um? I'll check it out later today when I get home and post a reply tomorrow.
The IOM is the only race out there (now the oldcrons are no longer canon) that i know of that has been specifically mentioned to wipe whole races out of bigotry. I'd say that is relevant.
We know this already but fluff also has other races committing xenocide if one just thinks about it. Take the CABAL for example and their little conspiracy.
Actually i can readily believe that the Old Eldar couul run an empire ofr millenia without atrocities, as their tech was light years ahead of everyone else. As there is nothing in the fluff saying they ever committed any atrocities (at least until the runup to the Fall) there weren't any, officially, unless you have some that you can quote?
Just because their tech is lightyears doesn't mean people won't try and muscle in as to take over the title as ruler of the galaxy and thus the Eldar have to beat them down and make an example of them. As for fluff no, as it never really talks about the full history of the Eldar empire.
Re the necrons: Possibly. I find it doubtful that the Old Eldar couldn't find the Tombworlds if they went looking for them, between ludicrously high tech and psyker ability. They let them lie when they were already beating them in a war before they went down for their nap, possibly because they were tired of war and could live with a respite.
I saw it as the Eldar not wanting to awaken the OldCrons by attacking them and once more starting a fight.
Where in the fluff does it piut the eldar seconf only tom the Oldcrons in species destruction? I seem to remember in the oldcron codex that they were described as wantinfg to preserve what was left of life in the galaxy, if you're going to insist on using the oldcron book's fluff, and there is nothing else in the fluff that i've run across that makes themnearly as triggerhappy on the exterminatus button as the IOM.
I said it was my thinking. The OldCrons were going around exterminating. The Eldar empire ruled the galaxy for millions of years doing who knows what and then the stealing suns thing. As for Exterminatus, most of the time that happens to Imperial planets to deny the Nids food and due to daemons. Is that a bad thing?
The orks are also never specified in the fluff as having commited total xenocide on a race, though you're welcome to quote fluff to contradict me.
The Orks are a belligerent race that fight for fighting's sake and have been around for millions of years. You do the math on the idea that they exterminated races is impossible.
Ascalam wrote:
IOM- Kills you just because you exist and aren't both human and an Emperor-worshipper. Will happily kill of its own species in droves on suspicion of thought-crime.
Agreed.
Orks- Like a good fight. They have no reason to wipe out a race entire, as this deprives them of said good fight. They are more prone to enslaving than systematic extermiantion.
Space Marine the video game showed otherwise.
Eldar- CW - Don't go in for wholescale extermination as a whole. Some craftworlds like the idea, but they don't have the resources to wipe an entire space-faring race without ludicrously good reason.
They would wipe out races if they had the numbers and resources but they don't. The only reason they need is if it benefits the Eldar. Anyway, I was talking about the Eldar empire.
Dark Eldar- Why exterminate a whole race? It'd be like exterminating every chicken on earth, when you like the taste of chicken, and like torturing chickens. They have absolutely no reason to systematically exterminate any race, as it deprives them of a source of sustenance and labor.
Stealing of stars can does kill races you know.
Tau- Ok, they might.. Generally they prefer to recruit though.
They wiped out the 'Reek' from a star-system for some reason that we don't know.
Daemons - See Dark Eldar. Why deprive yourself of playthings and potential energy sources.
Wrong. Killing entire species is fun for daemons and the souls of the species in question goes into the warp to be tortured and devoured by daemons.
CSM- They might, but the only ones they have a major grudge against is Humanity, and they lack the resources. I could see them wiping a minor race out of pique though.
Agreed.
Necrons- under new canon fluff they want everyone serving them, not exterminated. I could see them exterminating a race in extreme circumstances, as a lesson to others, but it would be a calculated decision, not a kneejerk religious fanatic thing.
Agreed.
Oldcron fluff is no longer canon, dude.
I know it isn't. I was just making a point.
Still the NewCrons are responsible for the death of the Old Ones and maybe because of them an Enslaver plague either swept over the galaxy or over only the Old Ones.
Orks- I don't consider any of the video games as canon fluff. If you do then fair enough, but i think the consensus was agaisnt them being canon last time this was brought up.
Eldar- we have zero fluff saying that the Old Eldar did so though.
Dark Eldar - Only if the system was inhabited. We have nothing in the fluff saying that it was. The Wiki adds that 'fact' withot basis from the fluff.
Tau - Doesn't shock me, but they haven't destroyed the entire 'Reek' race AFAIK.
Daemons - Possibly. Nothing in the Daemons book that confirms this POV though. They haven't been listed as actually destroying an entire race, as their incursions tend to be fairly small and/or localised. I'd not put it past them, but there's nothing saying that they ever have that i know of. I'll recheck my dex though, as Daemons fluff is cool.
You may have a point on the Newcrons, though it would be indirectly rather than deliberately if they did get anyone other than the Old Ones entirely destroyed.
Ascalam wrote: Orks- I don't consider any of the video games as canon fluff. If you do then fair enough, but i think the consensus was agaisnt them being canon last time this was brought up.
I take everything as canon. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that even if the Orks don't kill and instead enslave races doesn't change things. Being a Ork save means you're going to die sooner rather than later and thus the enslaved race goes extinct.
Eldar- we have zero fluff saying that the Old Eldar did so though.
Agreed. Its speculation on my part but one that makes a great deal of sense.
Dark Eldar - Only if the system was inhabited. We have nothing in the fluff saying that it was. The Wiki adds that 'fact' withot basis from the fluff.
It appears that I could have read the fluff from the book wrong. Also, lets be frank. We are talking about a race who during this time were so evil that they birth a god of perversion. Do you really think they chose to just steal suns from starsystems that were empty of life? Instead of taking it from inhabited starsystems just to be trolls.
Tau - Doesn't shock me, but they haven't destroyed the entire 'Reek' race AFAIK.
Yes, I did mention this by saying they destroyed the Reek from the starsystem. The Reek race is still around cause the Tau have yet to run into Reek space.
Daemons - Possibly. Nothing in the Daemons book that confirms this POV though. They haven't been listed as actually destroying an entire race, as their incursions tend to be fairly small and/or localised. I'd not put it past them, but there's nothing saying that they ever have that i know of. I'll recheck my dex though, as Daemons fluff is cool.
Daemons generally don't go around trying to end species but if given a chance to do, why not? Its all the same to them.
You may have a point on the Newcrons, though it would be indirectly rather than deliberately if they did get anyone other than the Old Ones entirely destroyed.
Ascalam wrote:Oldcron fluff is no longer canon. Newcron fluff is (more's the pity)
I know that. Thats why I said NewCrons and OldCrons.
Read my post above again. Your wikiquote is inaccurate. The codex says jack about the systems being inhabited or condemning millions of species to death.
I could have sworn the codex said that, I may have read it wrong. Um? I'll check it out later today when I get home and post a reply tomorrow.
The IOM is the only race out there (now the oldcrons are no longer canon) that i know of that has been specifically mentioned to wipe whole races out of bigotry. I'd say that is relevant.
We know this already but fluff also has other races committing xenocide if one just thinks about it. Take the CABAL for example and their little conspiracy.
Actually i can readily believe that the Old Eldar couul run an empire ofr millenia without atrocities, as their tech was light years ahead of everyone else. As there is nothing in the fluff saying they ever committed any atrocities (at least until the runup to the Fall) there weren't any, officially, unless you have some that you can quote?
Just because their tech is lightyears doesn't mean people won't try and muscle in as to take over the title as ruler of the galaxy and thus the Eldar have to beat them down and make an example of them. As for fluff no, as it never really talks about the full history of the Eldar empire.
Re the necrons: Possibly. I find it doubtful that the Old Eldar couldn't find the Tombworlds if they went looking for them, between ludicrously high tech and psyker ability. They let them lie when they were already beating them in a war before they went down for their nap, possibly because they were tired of war and could live with a respite.
I saw it as the Eldar not wanting to awaken the OldCrons by attacking them and once more starting a fight.
Where in the fluff does it piut the eldar seconf only tom the Oldcrons in species destruction? I seem to remember in the oldcron codex that they were described as wantinfg to preserve what was left of life in the galaxy, if you're going to insist on using the oldcron book's fluff, and there is nothing else in the fluff that i've run across that makes themnearly as triggerhappy on the exterminatus button as the IOM.
I said it was my thinking. The OldCrons were going around exterminating. The Eldar empire ruled the galaxy for millions of years doing who knows what and then the stealing suns thing. As for Exterminatus, most of the time that happens to Imperial planets to deny the Nids food and due to daemons. Is that a bad thing?
The orks are also never specified in the fluff as having commited total xenocide on a race, though you're welcome to quote fluff to contradict me.
The Orks are a belligerent race that fight for fighting's sake and have been around for millions of years. You do the math on the idea that they exterminated races is impossible.
DE codex timeline- pg 20 'the solar systems plunged into darkness by the eldar's star-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, but the eldar care not.' no merntion of inhabited systems there. That was right before the start of the fall, so it's entirely possible, but it's not actually mentioned. I can see them trolling some pooor schmucks if it's around the time of the fall , especially right beforehand
I'm not familiar with the CABAL (i assume different ffrom DE Kabals?) I'll hit up lexicanum
I can see the Eldar Empire vaping a star system or two (never said that they were nice) but not wholescale species-cide. The fluff says jack either way, so officially, no.
I can see your POV on the Necrons, though i don't neccesarily agree with it
If exterminatus was only used to deny the nids food or torch a world irrevocably lost to chaos, i'd agree. The IOM is a bit triggerhappy with it of late in the fluff, IIRC. I may be wrong, but the incidence of exterminatus being used sems to have been climbing lately, and the condition of the planet has been less dire to call for one.
Orks may have. Their haphazard way of travelling and liking for good opponents to stick around argues against it being their standard modus operandi, unlike certain factions..
Ascalam wrote:
DE codex timeline- pg 20 'the solar systems plunged into darkness by the eldar's star-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, but the eldar care not.' no merntion of inhabited systems there. That was right before the start of the fall, so it's entirely possible, but it's not actually mentioned.
Thank your for providing a quote and page number. I'll go and check out the book when I get home .
I'm not familiar with the CABAL (i assume different ffrom DE Kabals?) I'll hit up lexicanum
Its from the Horus Heresy Series. Its an alliance of aliens who plan for all of humanity to die so as to defeat Chaos or so the claim at any rate.
I can see the Eldar Empire vaping a star system or two (never said that they were nice) but not wholescale species-cide. The fluff says jack either way, so officially, no.
Agreed that the fluff says nothing. But to me its just common sense for an empire ruling for millions of years to do such acts. Lets just agree to disagree on this issue.
I can see your POV on the Necrons, though i don't neccesarily agree with it
Thats fine.
If exterminatus was only used to deny the nids food or torch a worl irrevocably lost to chaos, i'd agree. The IOM is a bit triggerhappy with it of late in the fluff, IIRC. I may be wrong, but the incidence of exterminatus being used sems to have been climbing lately, and the condition of the planet has been less dire to call for one.
The only recent Exterminatus was the one in DOW2 which if you watch all the intro's and listen carefully you'll find out why it was done.
Anyway, in the FFG books an Exterminatus was done by the Imperium on the Yu'Vath , an alien race of daemon worshipers, homeworld.
Orks may have. Their haphazard way of travelling and liking for good opponents to stick around argues against it being their standard modus operandi, unlike certain factions..
That good opponents thing is recent and was only ever done for Yarrick. Before that we never heard of the Orks doing such a thing so the 'good opponents' thing is the one that is against Modus opperandi of the Orks.
Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge. The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly. The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
Brother Coa wrote:This galaxy is Emperor's to rule.
Aldo our time now is dark and uncertain - we know this.
Our enemies will never give up, but neither will we.
We will one day stay on our feet and cleanse this galaxy from Aliens, Mutants and Heretics clean.
Because nothing can't stop the Crusade of the Righteous.
The Emperor protects!!!
May his light guide us to victory.
Short answer: no.
Agreed
Lovely. Now we have two deluded optimists.
I dont need optimism when i have Phil Kelly and Matt Ward writing GOOD codexes for the imperium. Seeing as how the only "real" aspect we have of the 40K universe is the game itself then why dont we compare the current codex line? The 2 best dexes out there are SW and GK.
Now lets use the theory that two players of equal skill decide to play 1v1's of the Xenos v Imperium dexes:
1. Nids? lol 2. Necrons? Eh, not really impressed with what im seeing so far
3. DE? Theyre pretty decent but auto lose to guard (another imperium dex)
4. Tau? LOLOLOL
5. Orks? *see GK purifiers and Thunder Cav --------> 6. Eldar? another Lol
CpatTom wrote:Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge.
How is that any different from Eldar thinking the galaxy is their birthright or the Tau thinking that they have a manifest destiny to rule the galaxy?
The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly.
What? Unless I'm mistaken, the Imperial truth was meant to get rid of religion and replacing it with rationalism and science.
The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
Any actual proof that the Emp hated aliens? My interpretation is that the Emp was a lot like the Eldar in thinking of other races as irrelevant in that if they had to die to achieve his goal, then so be it. But it was nothing personal. Although if this attitude is considered bigoted then the Eldar are also bigots.
Ascalam wrote:Never lost a game to the IOM with my DE or Daemons, but hey....
Never lost to SW or GK with orks, even spammy lists. BA is another story..
Lol read the part where i said "two players of equal skill."
If youre playing mouth breathers and winning with
deamons and orks over SW/GK then High 5!
DE i can believe
Actually, the only real way to keep things on some sort of even keel would be to revive the Emperor. The Imperium is fading fast, and only the Emperor could return it to... not failing as hard.
I don't know what 6th ed will bring, but I'm hoping it will bring some sort of story advancement. Something along the lines of the Emprasque that's on 1d4chan.org, but not as insane.
Ascalam wrote:Never lost a game to the IOM with my DE or Daemons, but hey....
Never lost to SW or GK with orks, even spammy lists. BA is another story..
Lol read the part where i said "two players of equal skill."
If youre playing mouth breathers and winning with
deamons and orks over SW/GK then High 5!
DE i can believe
I did. I rarely play folk that are too far out from my skill level. I play a lot of tournaments (some really good players there) and even won a couple with OLDcrons, but that was as much luck and tactics as codex power. It helps that people tend to always play the 'powerbuild' lists, so you know exactly what they will have and what it can do.
SW and GK are good at some things, bad at others. They can be beaten. I'm not saying that it wasn't close, some times, but i've yet to be beaten by either I doubt it will last
Blood Angels tend to waffle-stomp my orks, but then out local BA player is seriously fething good and lucky to boot, on top of an uber codex I have a far easier time with them with daemons and DE, especially DE..
DE played right are vicious. Fragile as hell, but vicious.
CpatTom wrote:Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge.
How is that any different from Eldar thinking the galaxy is their birthright or the Tau thinking that they have a manifest destiny to rule the galaxy?
The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly.
What? Unless I'm mistaken, the Imperial truth was meant to get rid of religion and replacing it with rationalism and science.
The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
Any actual proof that the Emp hated aliens? My interpretation is that the Emp was a lot like the Eldar in thinking of other races as irrelevant in that if they had to die to achieve his goal, then so be it. But it was nothing personal. Although if this attitude is considered bigoted then the Eldar are also bigots.
I never said it was different than the Eldar, and I don't know if the Eldar instituted controlled genocide of other sentient races, maybe they did. If so, they wouldn't be any better than the Emperor whose empire systematically spread throughout the galaxy and cleansed the xenos merrily along the way.
The Tau would willingly give their lives to preserve the Greater Good. Every single one of them (as long as an Etheral was around). The Tau ad the Kroot have been the only race to prove that they can put an ideaology before some sort of biological aloofness. The Tau require an Etheral, and the Kroot do so in order to further their own evolution, but neither indiscriminately kills like the Emperors troops on his Great Crusade.
The Imperial Truth sought to replace faith in religion with faith in science, with the caveat that man was the purest physical being (because the Emperor was a man) and thus deserved to rule the galaxy (Because the Emperor was da biggest and mos pow'ful humie so he deserved to rule da galaxy). The Imperial Truth only placed as much faith in science as was convenient for those in power; however, as any creation of AI was an immediate death knell for that civilization. So, basically, science was supposed to be god, except, only up to the point the Emperor says it is.
The Emperor did terrible things for what he thought was a worthy goal. Fortunately, he failed, and barring some Imperium propaganda miraculously coming true, the IoM will descend into the annals of history as one of the longest and most terrible times in the Milky Way Galaxy.
CpatTom wrote:Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge.
How is that any different from Eldar thinking the galaxy is their birthright or the Tau thinking that they have a manifest destiny to rule the galaxy?
The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly.
What? Unless I'm mistaken, the Imperial truth was meant to get rid of religion and replacing it with rationalism and science.
The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
Any actual proof that the Emp hated aliens? My interpretation is that the Emp was a lot like the Eldar in thinking of other races as irrelevant in that if they had to die to achieve his goal, then so be it. But it was nothing personal. Although if this attitude is considered bigoted then the Eldar are also bigots.
I never said it was different than the Eldar, and I don't know if the Eldar instituted controlled genocide of other sentient races, maybe they did. If so, they wouldn't be any better than the Emperor whose empire systematically spread throughout the galaxy and cleansed the xenos merrily along the way.
The Tau would willingly give their lives to preserve the Greater Good. Every single one of them (as long as an Etheral was around). The Tau ad the Kroot have been the only race to prove that they can put an ideaology before some sort of biological aloofness. The Tau require an Etheral, and the Kroot do so in order to further their own evolution, but neither indiscriminately kills like the Emperors troops on his Great Crusade.
The Imperial Truth sought to replace faith in religion with faith in science, with the caveat that man was the purest physical being (because the Emperor was a man) and thus deserved to rule the galaxy (Because the Emperor was da biggest and mos pow'ful humie so he deserved to rule da galaxy). The Imperial Truth only placed as much faith in science as was convenient for those in power; however, as any creation of AI was an immediate death knell for that civilization. So, basically, science was supposed to be god, except, only up to the point the Emperor says it is.
The Emperor did terrible things for what he thought was a worthy goal. Fortunately, he failed, and barring some Imperium propaganda miraculously coming true, the IoM will descend into the annals of history as one of the longest and most terrible times in the Milky Way Galaxy.
The 40k galaxy is a galaxy of the survival of the fittest. Only the strong races survive in it, so there's nothing wrong with destroying all threats to your race's survival. And AIs were forbidden not because it was convenient, go read up on the Men of Iron, gue'vesa.
CpatTom wrote: I never said it was different than the Eldar, and I don't know if the Eldar instituted controlled genocide of other sentient races, maybe they did. If so, they wouldn't be any better than the Emperor whose empire systematically spread throughout the galaxy and cleansed the xenos merrily along the way.
At least you entertain the prospect. Also, the goal of the Great Crusade was reclamation and reunification. The killing of Xenos was simply something that happened on the way. As for the Emp's true policy on the xenos. Its not one completely nailed down due to things contradicting each other in the fluff.
The Tau would willingly give their lives to preserve the Greater Good. Every single one of them (as long as an Etheral was around). The Tau ad the Kroot have been the only race to prove that they can put an ideaology before some sort of biological aloofness. The Tau require an Etheral, and the Kroot do so in order to further their own evolution, but neither indiscriminately kills like the Emperors troops on his Great Crusade.
I don't care.
The Imperial Truth sought to replace faith in religion with faith in science, with the caveat that man was the purest physical being (because the Emperor was a man) and thus deserved to rule the galaxy (Because the Emperor was da biggest and mos pow'ful humie so he deserved to rule da galaxy). The Imperial Truth only placed as much faith in science as was convenient for those in power; however, as any creation of AI was an immediate death knell for that civilization. So, basically, science was supposed to be god, except, only up to the point the Emperor says it is.
You have no idea about the reason for the Age of Strife at all do you? It was a combination of AI rebellion, No interstellar travel and communication due to Warp storms and alien invasion and the worst of all psyker's going insane or daemon possession.
The Imperial truth purpose was to replace faith and superstition with science not a religion of the Emperor. Infact, the Emp treated those who prayed to him as a God very harshly but you're of course too busy fapping off to the Tau to know this. It is canon in fluff that the Emp was created for the purpose of protecting the human race by any means necessary.
The Emp didn't want to create an AI due to wanting t avoid the danger of the DAoT.
The Emperor did terrible things for what he thought was a worthy goal. Fortunately, he failed, and barring some Imperium propaganda miraculously coming true, the IoM will descend into the annals of history as one of the longest and most terrible times in the Milky Way Galaxy.
Blah bah, blah all other's like humanity and Eldar and their empires suck. All hail the Tau! And yet you claim that Imperial players are crazy? Its seems to me that you're the crazy one snorting on Tau propaganda.
Bad news for you friend! If certain fiction is right, the fall of the Imperium means that the entire of Imperium space will turn into a warp portal similar to the Eye of Terror but far larger in size so that means the entire galaxy will end up swallowed by the Warp including the Tau empire. Oh joy, I can't wait for that day!
CpatTom wrote:Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge. The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly. The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
The only know one race that was exterminated in that time: Laeran. And that was not him, that was his son Fulgrim.
I also know that many Eldar exodite worlds was destroyed by - Fulgrim again. There is no mention of Emperor anywhere in the text. So that was his sons, not him.
I certainly don't recall Emperor ordering World Eaters to butcher population of every world they liberate as it was stated in Index Astartes 3.
And I agree with his policy: in a galaxy that doesen't give a for you you don't give a to it. Aliens attacked Mankind, waged wars on it and all in the time it was most vulnerable ( Age of Strife ). Humans never forget this, and they never will. And this is why policy of "Only Humans" was introduced in his teachings. Being that only Xenos then were Eldar, Tau and some minor species - I don't have a problem with it.
Furthermore Durza you can't say "they would unite with Tau and Eldar" because you think like 21'st century Human. Try to think like 301'st century Human or 401'st one.
Eldar are Xenofobic and hate Humans A LOT ( probably because they rule the Galaxy now instead of them ) and Tau ask every other race to succumb to their rule and their beliefs. Humans are to proud to that and because of our "peaceful" history with them we would never consoder this because they will only use us and then throw us away ( like Eldar, most of the time ).
CpatTom wrote:Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge. The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly. The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
The only know one race that was exterminated in that time: Laeran. And that was not him, that was his son Fulgrim.
I also know that many Eldar exodite worlds was destroyed by - Fulgrim again. There is no mention of Emperor anywhere in the text. So that was his sons, not him.
I certainly don't recall Emperor ordering World Eaters to butcher population of every world they liberate as it was stated in Index Astartes 3.
And I agree with his policy: in a galaxy that doesen't give a for you you don't give a to it. Aliens attacked Mankind, waged wars on it and all in the time it was most vulnerable ( Age of Strife ). Humans never forget this, and they never will. And this is why policy of "Only Humans" was introduced in his teachings. Being that only Xenos then were Eldar, Tau and some minor species - I don't have a problem with it.
Furthermore Durza you can't say "they would unite with Tau and Eldar" because you think like 21'st century Human. Try to think like 301'st century Human or 401'st one.
Eldar are Xenofobic and hate Humans A LOT ( probably because they rule the Galaxy now instead of them ) and Tau ask every other race to succumb to their rule and their beliefs. Humans are to proud to that and because of our "peaceful" history with them we would never consoder this because they will only use us and then throw us away ( like Eldar, most of the time ).
And for all of those that think I am trolling:
Spoiler:
Coa's right. All the races in 40k think they're superior to all others, so what's wrong with Mankind thinking the same? As I said before, 40k is survival of the fittest. Only strong races can rule the galaxy. All of them know that. The methods are just different. The Orks and Humans do it in a straightforward manner: kill all your enemies. The Eldar do that too sometimes, but they prefer to manipulate 'lesser races' to do their dirty work for them. If anything it shows the youth and naivete of the Tau that they think that if everyone understands each others' culture they can work together. It doesn't. Don't apply 21st Century ethics to 40k. Even our 21st Century ethics mirrors 40k. In our own history, advanced civilizations (Europe in the Age of Exploration) have destroyed what they considered inferior (Incas, Mayans, etc.). 40k is no different. The winner is always right/no one prosecutes winners. The losers of WWII and their descendants (I'm half-Japanese) know that best. If you win a war, you're just. No one will question your methods, or if they do, it comes to nothing. The losers get nothing at all. We Japanese kept our Emperor thanks only to General MacArthur telling the one's who wanted the Emperor out 'over my dead body'.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Its not my attitude. I'm just stating an unpleasant fact about politics and power that is a fact of life whether we like it or not. Take a look at the situation with Pakistan and the US for what I mean.
So in politics it's ok to murder, steal and destroy to achieve an aim, regardless of building relations on trust and friendship I'm sure there are instances of this occurring but not every relationship is formed this way.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:I agree utterly on this. What am I discussing is who fouled up more in escalating the situation from a dispute cause Horus and his team didn't want to disarm into a firefight.
There wasn't a firefight until the Interex were left with no option but to attack
Corporal_Reznov wrote:]Okay, then please give your theory on why is it sentient.
Because the Kinbrach created that way. Need there be another?
Brother Coa wrote:
The only know one race that was exterminated in that time: Laeran. And that was not him, that was his son Fulgrim.
And who's orders are Fulgrim carrying out, who is Fulgrim acting on behalf of?
The Jorgall from Flight of the Eisenstein were likely wiped out, being xenos and psykers. The Keylekid mentioned in Horus Rising were also wiped out as were the race of sentient machines the Luna Wolves encountered.
Politics is a kaleidoscope, constantly changing in color. People can talk all they want about trust and understanding, but in the end, in both 40k and the real world, people only follow the strong. Think about it, who's in charge? The rich and influential, and people follow the law because they fear the punishment that results from breaking it, not because it's the right thing to do. Well, not everyone, but society in general follows that trend.
Pilau Rice wrote:
And who's orders are Fulgrim carrying out, who is Fulgrim acting on behalf of?
So all those poor Iraqi solders that were in prison after war 2003 that got beaten up, raped and worse were under torment by solders acting on behalf of American people and American government?
Fulgrim acted on his own, his father didn't control him. Same goes for the rest of the Primarchs.
During and after the Crusade, Space Marines have always been semi-autonomous from the Imperium. No one really questions their methods so long as the results benefit the Imperium. Just like the Inquisition, the Space Marines answer only to themselves and the Emperor. Even the High Lords and the Inquisition have to treat the Astartes with discretion. By the way Coa, I have to ask. Does the commie frog in your signature mean the Tau?
Oh I see. I seem to remember saying before that Tau aren't space communists, but they're quite close, as when I read up on gue'vesa, the fluff called the Tau 'collectivist'.
Pilau Rice wrote:
So in politics it's ok to murder, steal and destroy to achieve an aim, regardless of building relations on trust and friendship I'm sure there are instances of this occurring but not every relationship is formed this way.
Yes as long as one has plausible deniability and does it behind the others back.
There wasn't a firefight until the Interex were left with no option but to attack
So the Interex did attack first and you just admitted to it. Okay, now that that is settled. My entire point in this discussion is why didn't the Interex follow diplomatic protocols and try to handle the situation rationally in making a compromise? Or explaining the situation clearly? Just to be clear; I agree that both sides failed utterly. I'm attempting to settle the fact about who failed more.
You yourself said that the Interex had no ships capable of standing up to the Imperium so what would killing Horus and his team solve? Nothing but painting a huge target on their heads.
Because the Kinbrach created that way. Need there be another?
Yes. Is it inhabited by a spirit like an Eldar soul gem? Is it a Chaos Blade? Does it have an AI? How is it sentient?
And who's orders are Fulgrim carrying out, who is Fulgrim acting on behalf of?
Horus, cause he was the Warmaster as the Emp had left for Terra to play around with Webway tech?
The Jorgall from Flight of the Eisenstein were likely wiped out, being xenos and psykers.
Weren't they being attacked cause they kept on entering human space?
The Keylekid mentioned in Horus Rising were also wiped out as were the race of sentient machines the Luna Wolves encountered.
That sounds like they were remains of the DAoT tech and thus exterminated due to the Emp not wanting any trace of AI from the DAoT so as to prevent a resurgence of the Iron Men.
I'm sorry, I still haven't been able to get the book as today I had school. But I will be able to get the book by Sunday(its Friday here in the Philippines) and post a reply to you Monday.
Tadashi wrote:Politics is a kaleidoscope, constantly changing in color. People can talk all they want about trust and understanding, but in the end, in both 40k and the real world, people only follow the strong. Think about it, who's in charge? The rich and influential, and people follow the law because they fear the punishment that results from breaking it, not because it's the right thing to do. Well, not everyone, but society in general follows that trend.
We're not discussing the case of who is in charge here.
Horus wanted to show the Interex that they are not just a race of warriors, he wanted to bring them back to the embrace of Terra. How are you going to show them that you are one and the same and bring them back to the fold if you can't co - operate with each other. Horus should just have waded in like normal if that's the way how relations are built.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: it means we Orks have won.
WAAAAAAAGH!!!!
No you didn't. As long as every Ork fight for himself and not for his race supremacy we have the upper hand
Bah! Foolish Imperials! We Orks have seen the rise and fall of the Eldar and Human empires and seen both races now stand on the precipice of extinction. Something we do not suffer from, instead we thrive. We Orks have WON! Get over it .
Tadashi wrote:Politics is a kaleidoscope, constantly changing in color. People can talk all they want about trust and understanding, but in the end, in both 40k and the real world, people only follow the strong. Think about it, who's in charge? The rich and influential, and people follow the law because they fear the punishment that results from breaking it, not because it's the right thing to do. Well, not everyone, but society in general follows that trend.
We're not discussing the case of who is in charge here.
Horus wanted to show the Interex that they are not just a race of warriors, he wanted to bring them back to the embrace of Terra. How are you going to show them that you are one and the same and bring them back to the fold if you can't co - operate with each other. Horus should just have waded in like normal if that's the way how relations are built.
Might is right once again.
Might IS right, both in our world and in 40k. In our world, it's just not as obvious and 'direct' as in 40k, but in 40k, that's the only thing that allows any race to claim a spot in the galaxy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: it means we Orks have won.
WAAAAAAAGH!!!!
No you didn't. As long as every Ork fight for himself and not for his race supremacy we have the upper hand
Bah! Foolish Imperials! We Orks have seen the rise and fall of the Eldar and Human empires and seen both races now stand on the precipice of extinction. Something we do not suffer from, instead we thrive. We Orks have WON! Get over it .
In a way the Orks have won. They may not be the dominant race in the galaxy, thanks to their chronic anarchy, but for them survival is guaranteed at the least. "The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." - From Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher
Doesn't mean we'll just lie down and die though. The greatest strength of Mankind is that our sheer will and drive to defy fate and make our own destiny has allowed us to triumph time and time again, to the great surprise and anger of our enemies (Farseers and Chaos Powers.)
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes as long as one has plausible deniability and does it behind the others back.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the Interex did attack first and you just admitted to it. Okay, now that that is settled. My entire point in this discussion is why didn't the Interex follow diplomatic protocols and try to handle the situation rationally in making a compromise? Or explaining the situation clearly? Just to be clear; I agree that both sides failed utterly. I'm attempting to settle the fact about who failed more.
I've never said anything to the contrary, so I am not sure what your point is? If the Imperium handled the situation better then the Interex never would have had to raise arms, that's the point.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:so what would killing Horus and his team solve? Nothing but painting a huge target on their heads.
Exactly, why not comply with the requests of the Interex until Horus was absolved. This is a point I raised earlier, nice to see that you agree with me.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes. Is it inhabited by a spirit like an Eldar soul gem? Is it a Chaos Blade? Does it have an AI? How is it sentient?
It's described as being a sentient blade, that's all the book says, that the Kinbrach created it and it is sentient
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Horus, cause he was the Warmaster as the Emp had left for Terra to play around with Webway tech?
And who is Horus Warmaster for? Starts with an E and ends in mperor with The at the start.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Weren't they being attacked cause they kept on entering human space?
As well as being Xenos and Psykers, yes, but that's irrelevant as they were more than likely wiped out, which is what the question was about.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:That sounds like they were remains of the DAoT tech and thus exterminated due to the Emp not wanting any trace of AI from the DAoT so as to prevent a resurgence of the Iron Men.
Doesn't make a difference, they were wiped out. You are making an assumption there, as you are with the Anathame.
Tadashi wrote:
Might IS right, both in our world and in 40k. In our world, it's just not as obvious and 'direct' as in 40k, but in 40k, that's the only thing that allows any race to claim a spot in the galaxy.
So why did Horus even bother with a half assed attempt at diplomacy?
Tadashi wrote:
Might IS right, both in our world and in 40k. In our world, it's just not as obvious and 'direct' as in 40k, but in 40k, that's the only thing that allows any race to claim a spot in the galaxy.
Might isn't really right. Its just a fact of life that Might is the force that makes the rule of law, runs politics, decides who gets the bigger share of the resource pie etc.
No you didn't. As long as every Ork fight for himself and not for his race supremacy we have the upper hand
Bah! Foolish Imperials! We Orks have seen the rise and fall of the Eldar and Human empires and seen both races now stand on the precipice of extinction. Something we do not suffer from, instead we thrive. We Orks have WON! Get over it .
In a way the Orks have won. They may not be the dominant race in the galaxy, thanks to their chronic anarchy, but for them survival is guaranteed at the least. "The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." - From Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher
Doesn't mean we'll just lie down and die though. The greatest strength of Mankind is that our sheer will and drive to defy fate and make our own destiny has allowed us to triumph time and time again, to the great surprise and anger of our enemies (Farseers and Chaos Powers.)
At least you admit that we Orks have won .
Pilau Rice wrote:
Politics and such suck but its the way of the world.
I've never said anything to the contrary, so I am not sure what your point is? If the Imperium handled the situation better then the Interex never would have had to raise arms, that's the point.
I agreed with you on this but the quotes you posted also showed that the Interex also didn't handle the situation better as well.
Exactly, why not comply with the requests of the Interex until Horus was absolved. This is a point I raised earlier, nice to see that you agree with me.
I assume Horus didn't want to comply cause he was worried about his life and the life of his team. Remember, my post earlier about seeing it from the Imperials perspective.
Thats why asked why didn't the Interex try a compromise.
It's described as being a sentient blade, that's all the book says, that the Kinbrach created it and it is sentient.
Great! No details .
As well as being Xenos and Psykers, yes, but that's irrelevant as they were more than likely wiped out, which is what the question was about.
Doesn't make a difference, they were wiped out. You are making an assumption there, as you are with the Anathame.
I didn't make that question.
Agreed in that I am speculating but it fits the facts. A sentient machine race existing just after the era of the Age of Strife? Sounds like DAoT AI to me and thats why they got exterminated.
So why did Horus even bother with a half assed attempt at diplomacy?
Cause he wanted to integrate the Interex back into the human fold peacefully. It simply didn't work out.
Tadashi wrote:
Might IS right, both in our world and in 40k. In our world, it's just not as obvious and 'direct' as in 40k, but in 40k, that's the only thing that allows any race to claim a spot in the galaxy.
So why did Horus even bother with a half assed attempt at diplomacy?
Corporal_Reznov wrote: Bah! Foolish Imperials! We Orks have seen the rise and fall of the Eldar and Human empires and seen both races now stand on the precipice of extinction. Something we do not suffer from, instead we thrive. We Orks have WON! Get over it .
Orks didn't won by a longshot. AS long the Humanity reign supreme in the galaxy so it will be so. Orks will never unite and overrun the galaxy, get over it
Quite. The battle for survival is theirs, but dominance over the galaxy belongs to us Humans. I doubt we could have destroyed the Orks even if the Heresy didn't occur, but since all Humans would be psykers, we could just predict a Waaaaagggh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and stop it by attacking through the Webway to keep the mobs small and fighting one another instead of forming a Waaaaagggh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CpatTom wrote:Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge. The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly. The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.
The only know one race that was exterminated in that time: Laeran. And that was not him, that was his son Fulgrim.
Fulgrim did this to prove a point. The Imperium's reasons for not attacking the Laer was that it would take too much time and they were content to stay on their planet. When everyone heard about it, they tried to stop him because of the casualties they would cause, not because of the race that would die. It was regarded as a pretty normal thing to do.
I also know that many Eldar exodite worlds was destroyed by - Fulgrim again. There is no mention of Emperor anywhere in the text. So that was his sons, not him.
So you're suggesting the Emperor had no idea that things like that would happen?
I certainly don't recall Emperor ordering World Eaters to butcher population of every world they liberate as it was stated in Index Astartes 3.
Well maybe you should recall that he did order the murder of races such as the Nurthene when he found they couldn't be convinced to join the Imperium. And it was standard practise too, a Space Wolf commander was considered to be going soft because he didn't secure a planet's allegiance before aiding them against Dark Eldar. Both long before the Emperor left for Terra.
And I agree with his policy: in a galaxy that doesen't give a for you you don't give a to it. Aliens attacked Mankind, waged wars on it and all in the time it was most vulnerable ( Age of Strife ). Humans never forget this, and they never will. And this is why policy of "Only Humans" was introduced in his teachings. Being that only Xenos then were Eldar, Tau and some minor species - I don't have a problem with it.
The policy of humans only came long before the Age of Strife, or perhaps you thought that there were no sentient species on the planets humans took for their own during the Golden Age? Tau were still hitting each other with sticks at that time, and it's foolish to assume the Eldar were the only aliens around.
Furthermore Durza you can't say "they would unite with Tau and Eldar" because you think like 21'st century Human. Try to think like 301'st century Human or 401'st one.
Eldar are Xenofobic and hate Humans A LOT ( probably because they rule the Galaxy now instead of them ) and Tau ask every other race to succumb to their rule and their beliefs. Humans are to proud to that and because of our "peaceful" history with them we would never consoder this because they will only use us and then throw us away ( like Eldar, most of the time ).
Eldar hate humans for refusing to learn from their mistakes, and for being xenophobic bigots. They are nowhere near as xenophobic as the humans, and who can blame them for attacking a race which would gladly wipe them out just for existing?
The orks have won. They have not lost a single battle. They just come back for more. Humankind in its current form are pathetic shards of the Golden age. Besides, we all know that the Tau will mind controll the orks and rule the galaxy
Durza wrote:
Fulgrim did this to prove a point. The Imperium's reasons for not attacking the Laer was that it would take too much time and they were content to stay on their planet. When everyone heard about it, they tried to stop him because of the casualties they would cause, not because of the race that would die. It was regarded as a pretty normal thing to do.
Your point? This is 40k remember. No race actually gives a crap about the other race. They have no problems seeing other races die if it helps them in the end.
The policy of humans only came long before the Age of Strife, or perhaps you thought that there were no sentient species on the planets humans took for their own during the Golden Age? Tau were still hitting each other with sticks at that time, and it's foolish to assume the Eldar were the only aliens around.
Unless, I'm mistaken. One of the HH books, I can't remember for the life of me so I could have made this up so sorry, has mention of human faction who had turned themselves into machines that make even the Mechanicus look tame had representatives sent to them by the Imperium who they killed and vivisected using the remains saying that the Imperium weren't human btu aliens. Why would they do that if they liked aliens?
Eldar hate humans for refusing to learn from their mistakes, and for being xenophobic bigots. They are nowhere near as xenophobic as the humans, and who can blame them for attacking a race which would gladly wipe them out just for existing?
What the hell are you smoking that has clouded out your brain? You said that Eldar hate humanity for being xenophobes and yet state later that Eldar are xenophobes. Please stop this, you're just embarrassing yourself.
The Eldar hate humanity cause it now rules the galaxy which the makes the Eldar angry cause they consider the galaxy to be their birthright plus the Eldar are also Xenophobic the just express it differently from humans in ways. Infact the Eldar consider humanity to be brutes. The Eldar look down on everyone. Also, the Imperium has never, to my knowledge, made it their mission to kill the Eldar craftworlds unless the Craftworlds did something to annoy them.
Also, what mistakes has humanity committed that humanity has refused to learn from?
Space Crusader wrote:The orks have won. They have not lost a single battle. They just come back for more. Humankind in its current form are pathetic shards of the Golden age. Besides, we all know that the Tau will mind controll the orks and rule the galaxy
Space Crusader
Oh just hush! The Tau will go extinct under the might of the Green Tide.
The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.
So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.
Ascalam wrote:
DE codex timeline- pg 20 'the solar systems plunged into darkness by the eldar's star-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, but the eldar care not.' no merntion of inhabited systems there. That was right before the start of the fall, so it's entirely possible, but it's not actually mentioned. I can see them trolling some pooor schmucks if it's around the time of the fall , especially right beforehand
I just checked out the book and you're right but I'm curious why they even bothered to mention the fact that the star system dies at all if it had no inhabitants? An entire star system that are uninhabited die in sci-fi, who cares?
Again, its is possible that the systems were or at least some of them were inhabited but its not mentioned. To me the fall of the Eldar began at around this time seeing as its when the race started becoming bored and hedonistic. The 'true' fall meaning when the Empire was destoyed happened much later but the seeds were sowed in this era.
Rented Tritium wrote:The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.
The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.
So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.
ForgeWorld says that the Gods of Chaos want to merge at least the galaxy with the Warp and this will probably happen with a Chaos victory which is something that is 90% to happen with the fall of the Imperium, so basically your idea wont happen.
The US-Pakistan situation will not devolve into out and out war, and if it does, the US will not murder all of the Pakistani's because, get this, It is the wrong thing to do. The United States is the mightiest country in the world, but it doesn't simply kill off everyone that thinks differently than itself, because its wrong.
I am aware of the Age of Strife. Does that change the fact that the policy on finding civilizations who had created AI was complete and total genocide? No, it was easier to kill things than to come up with an actual solution to the issue.
The, people were mean to mean, so I can be mean to everyone is a logic failure. That is what happens when you dont properly learn how to deal with others, because you're a sociopathic megalomaniac who never bothered learning people skills.
Yes, why would I side with the faction that has its leaders take responsibility for there actions, and when deemed inappropriate, even against another species, are punishable by death. (I.e. Brightsword). The Tau are not above the Greater Good, and are responsible for their actions.
Despite all of that, this is only a jabs at the Emperor: The Imperium is so much worse its laughable. Genocide is openly praised, developing and advancing technology is heresy punishable by death, and any hope for a continued existence as long been written off by anyone capable of understanding just what is occurring in 40k.
It shouldn't take a genius to figure out, in a future where there is only war, the Orks have already won.
Now I gotta go find my fish-light. I know I put it somewhere...
Rented Tritium wrote:The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.
The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.
So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.
ForgeWorld says that the Gods of Chaos want to merge at least the galaxy with the Warp and this will probably happen with a Chaos victory which is something that is 90% to happen with the fall of the Imperium, so basically your idea wont happen.
CpatTom wrote:The US-Pakistan situation will not devolve into out and out war, and if it does, the US will not murder all of the Pakistani's because, get this, It is the wrong thing to do. The United States is the mightiest country in the world, but it doesn't simply kill off everyone that thinks differently than itself, because its wrong.
I was using that situation as an example of politics you dolt.rt
Also, the US doing the right thing is just hilarious. The US government just like other governments around the world do what is in their best interest. Like for example, the US and their support of Mubarak and other tyrants when it suited them while at the same time spouting about wanting democracy, it was hypocritical and the wrong thing to do but was done due to such acts serving US interests better.
I am aware of the Age of Strife. Does that change the fact that the policy on finding civilizations who had created AI was complete and total genocide? No, it was easier to kill things than to come up with an actual solution to the issue.
What are you talking about now? The Imperial policy is very simple, kill the AI so as to prevent a recurrence of the Iron Men rebellion. Hey, take a look at the Deathwatch rpg: The Achilus Assault. If what I've heard is correct, a human planet found a DAoT AI(don't know if its an Iron Men) that with a few DAoT tech helped them drive the Tau empire from the planet and then the AI proceeded to mind control the human population and turn them into slaves.
The, people were mean to mean, so I can be mean to everyone is a logic failure. That is what happens when you dont properly learn how to deal with others, because you're a sociopathic megalomaniac who never bothered learning people skills.
Accusing me of something here?
Yes, why would I side with the faction that has its leaders take responsibility for there actions, and when deemed inappropriate, even against another species, are punishable by death. (I.e. Brightsword). The Tau are not above the Greater Good, and are responsible for their actions.
Oh really then why was no one punished for the Reek extermination campaign?
Despite all of that, this is only a jabs at the Emperor: The Imperium is so much worse its laughable. Genocide is openly praised, developing and advancing technology is heresy punishable by death, and any hope for a continued existence as long been written off by anyone capable of understanding just what is occurring in 40k.
Nearly everyone commits genocide or xenocide or worse things so why bother to hide it? New tech or to be more accurate already existing tech is being developed even more but they're taking a long time to circulate across the Imperium. Next, the tech stagnation is the fault of the Mechanicus which is allied to the Imperium if you didn't know that.
Finally, the Imperium is worse compared to what?
P.S: You going on about the genocides the other races commit is just hypocritical seeing as your precious Tau wiped the Reek out from a star-system for their own reasons not caring about the local tenants at all.
Rented Tritium wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Rented Tritium wrote:The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.
The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.
So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.
ForgeWorld says that the Gods of Chaos want to merge at least the galaxy with the Warp and this will probably happen with a Chaos victory which is something that is 90% to happen with the fall of the Imperium, so basically your idea wont happen.
"forgeworld says"
"chaos gods want to"
That's nice
Yes, Forgeworld says that in its book 'Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks 3 pg 173'. So your idea won't be happening, unless you want the galaxy to be destroyed?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, Forgeworld says that in its book 'Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks 3 pg 173'. So your idea won't be happening, unless you want the galaxy to be destroyed?
I'm sorry, but no. IA7 doesn't tell the future. Just because the chaos gods WANT to do a certain thing on a certain date doesn't mean that it WILL happen. We're having a conversation about how the imperium would fall, the clause of "barring unrelated destruction" should be assumed for any point. You're basically nitpicking with a point that's utterly unrelated to what the thread is actually about.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, Forgeworld says that in its book 'Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks 3 pg 173'. So your idea won't be happening, unless you want the galaxy to be destroyed?
I'm sorry, but no. IA7 doesn't tell the future. Just because the chaos gods WANT to do a certain thing on a certain date doesn't mean that it WILL happen. We're having a conversation about how the imperium would fall, the clause of "barring unrelated destruction" should be assumed for any point. You're basically nitpicking with a point that's utterly unrelated to what the thread is actually about.
The fall of the Imperium is, barring a miracle, guaranteed. What I was stating is that your idea of the Imperium falling and humanity surviving as separate states that occasionally ally won't be happening due to various fluff like the CABAL of the 'HH' series and the Inquisition books that had Jaq Draco stating that the fall of the Imperium will bring about a Chaos victory and a Chaos victory pretty much entails the galaxy becoming one with the Warp. Thus everyone are united and equal in death and eternal suffering.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Jaq Draco stating that the fall of the Imperium will bring about a Chaos victory
Just because a character says so doesn't mean it is actually true and canon. In-universe observations and opinions can simply be wrong.
We were not told this by an omniscient reliable narrator.
I apologize for you getting the wrong idea from my post. Jaq Draco didn't state this. I said his name along with mentioning Inquisition novel cause from my experience most 40ker's know who Jaq Draco is and what novels he appears in. The fluff surrounding this is stating that Chaos is advancing on the universe, meaning its growing in strength, and the Emp is dying. From what I heard they are afraid that the death of the Emperor and thus the fall of the Imperium would lead to a new Eye of Terror but formed from humans whose size is that of the size of the Imperium(this is old fluff but the CABAL of the HH series also feared the same thing so *shrug*).
Corporal_Reznov wrote:I was using that situation as an example of politics you dolt.rt
Please keep posts about the topic, as name calling serves little purpose, other than to highlight the name-callers ignorant nature.
Also, the US doing the right thing is just hilarious. The US government just like other governments around the world do what is in their best interest. Like for example, the US and their support of Mubarak and other tyrants when it suited them while at the same time spouting about wanting democracy, it was hypocritical and the wrong thing to do but was done due to such acts serving US interests better.
I didnt bring up the example of US foreign policy, and will not derail the thread with comment.
What are you talking about now? The Imperial policy is very simple, kill the AI so as to prevent a recurrence of the Iron Men rebellion. Hey, take a look at the Deathwatch rpg: The Achilus Assault. If what I've heard is correct, a human planet found a DAoT AI(don't know if its an Iron Men) that with a few DAoT tech helped them drive the Tau empire from the planet and then the AI proceeded to mind control the human population and turn them into slaves.
Congratulations. Now the IoM uses AI just like all those human empires it purged on site during the Great Crusade. Good Example.
Accusing me of something here?
The Emperor actually, haha. Admitting something here?
Oh really then why was no one punished for the Reek extermination campaign?
If you know the details concerning the Reek I would love to hear them, as I really don't know what is going on with that. I like using evidence to reach conclusions; however, if you know that the Reek are actually Care Bears, and threatening the Tau's place as the cuddliest 40k faction, I will redact that point of my argument. If not, please don't point to evidence that isnt evidence at all.
Nearly everyone commits genocide or xenocide or worse things so why bother to hide it? New tech or to be more accurate already existing tech is being developed even more but they're taking a long time to circulate across the Imperium. Next, the tech stagnation is the fault of the Mechanicus which is allied to the Imperium if you didn't know that.
Finally, the Imperium is worse compared to what?
P.S: You going on about the genocides the other races commit is just hypocritical seeing as your precious Tau wiped the Reek out from a star-system for their own reasons not caring about the local tenants at all.
Yes blame the Mechanicum for the Emperor's restrictions on tech because of his fear of AI. Claiming the Mechanicum isn't part of the IoM is simply obtuse. The Imperium is worse than the Emperor. Where might I read about the Reek again?
@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.
CpatTom wrote:
Please keep posts about the topic, as name calling serves little purpose, other than to highlight the name-callers ignorant nature.
I think you're ignorant, so lets just agree to disagree .
I didnt bring up the example of US foreign policy, and will not derail the thread with comment.
Your post is giving the impression that governments do what they do cause its the right thing.
Congratulations. Now the IoM uses AI just like all those human empires it purged on site during the Great Crusade. Good Exam
Bzzt, wrong. The planet is in the middle of Tau space in the Jericho Reach and the Imperium doesn't even know that such a situation has taken place. So what were you saying again?
The Emperor actually, haha. Admitting something here?
No, just curious about who or what you were ranting about?
If you know the details concerning the Reek I would love to hear them, as I really don't know what is going on with that. I like using evidence to reach conclusions; however, if you know that the Reek are actually Care Bears, and threatening the Tau's place as the cuddliest 40k faction, I will redact that point of my argument. If not, please don't point to evidence that isnt evidence at all.
I don't know much. Only that they got exterminated from a star-system by the Tau. The Why as far as I know is never stated? Still geno/xeno-cide is still an extermination no matter what, so don't bother.
Yes blame the Mechanicum for the Emperor's restrictions on tech because of his fear of AI. Claiming the Mechanicum isn't part of the IoM is simply obtuse.
The Imperium is worse than the Emperor.
Where might I read about the Reek again?
Do you read the fluff at all? The Adeptus Mechanicus themselves hate AI, they consider it abhorrent. The Emp was all in favor of developing new tech, he simply put up ones true restriction of no Iron man level AI which was of no problem to the Mechanicus since they themselves don't like AI.
The Mechanicum are an independent entity from the Imperium. Infact they predate the existence of the Imperium. You are hopeless, you don't know the fluff and just spout out Tau propaganda. The Imperium do not follow the Emperor's vision but at this point, its all we got.
Ask the Tau poster who I gave praises to(I forgot his name).
Rented Tritium wrote:@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.
And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?
Rented Tritium wrote:@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.
And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?
I never said it was. I'm saying that we can't take what they think will happen in the future as canon.
You said my concept of the fall of the empire would "not happen" in very strong statements which you backed up with subjective opinions of in-universe characters.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Your post is giving the impression that governments do what they do cause its the right thing.
Because I believe governments should do the right thing.
Bzzt, wrong. The planet is in the middle of Tau space in the Jericho Reach and the Imperium doesn't even know that such a situation has taken place. So what were you saying again?
Please clarify when human doesnt mean IoM. It allows for better communication.
Ok, so you shouldn't develop AI cause something bad happened those two times right? How about not having an Emperor, thats screwed up more times than twice throughout history, but that didnt stop the Emperor from making himself Emperor. Cool.
I don't know much. Only that they got exterminated from a star-system by the Tau. The Why as far as I know is never stated? Still geno/xeno-cide is still an extermination no matter what, so don't bother.
Much or anything? Tau policy does allow for extermination of things like Tyranids, which will never be able to adhere to the greater good. You have zero support to Tau genocides. Thanks for coming out.
Do you read the fluff at all? The Adeptus Mechanicus themselves hate AI, they consider it abhorrent. The Emp was all in favor of developing new tech, he simply put up ones true restriction of no Iron man level AI which was of no problem to the Mechanicus since they themselves don't like AI.
Machine spirits are simpler AI programs. They just can't be called AI, cause you know, its Heresy. Check out what happens with Titans.
The Mechanicum are an independent entity from the Imperium. Infact they predate the existence of the Imperium. You are hopeless, you don't know the fluff and just spout out Tau propaganda. The Imperium do not follow the Emperor's vision but at this point, its all we got.
The Mechanicum are not independent. They hold a seat on the council of HLoT and could not function without the IoM. Yes, they are technically their own "separate" entity (just like all those puppet states the Soviet Union installed). Any limited knowledge on the functioning of the IoM would make one aware of that.
And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?
Because it is given to us by an omniscient Narrator. Omniscient is the key word. In universe characters are limited by their grasp of reality, personality, personal knowledge, and scope of vieew. Omniscient narrators know everything. Thats the definition of omniscient.
Assuming that Imperium does not crash and burn, one could then say then the Imperium could follow the same history as the Roman Empire did, first breaking into halves, then one half being attacked and the capitol sacked while the other doesn't (or can't) help, then the other half creating a new empire, then the empire whose capitol was sacked splits into smaller kingdoms, then the church on the capitol of that "empire" attempts to spread their faith, then reunites part of the empire, then it follows the rest of European history, but on a galactic scale.
It would be... odd, to say the least, to see this on a galactic scale, and the enemies of the Roman and Holy Roman Empires were not xenopobic and genocidal mooks, so it could be safe to assume that somewhere in there (probably after Terra gets sacked) that (insert army here) could swoop in and destroy the Imperium. That half, at least.
CpatTom wrote:
Because I believe governments should do the right thing.
I too wish they would do that but I know that they don't cause thats life.
Please clarify when human doesnt mean IoM. It allows for better communication.
Ok, so you shouldn't develop AI cause something bad happened those two times right? How about not having an Emperor, thats screwed up more times than twice throughout history, but that didnt stop the Emperor from making himself Emperor. Cool.
You are hopeless. You don't try and look at things objectively you just spout your opinion, it pointless talking to you.
Remember the Age of Strife and the Iron Men rebellion which helped tremendously in bringing down that age of 'enlightenment.
Much or anything? Tau policy does allow for extermination of things like Tyranids, which will never be able to adhere to the greater good. You have zero support to Tau genocides. Thanks for coming out.
I told you to talk to that poster I praised earlier. He himself stated that the Tau for some reason wiped an entire star-system clean of a sentient species who claimed that star-system first.
But I know you'll ignore it cause Tau are 'perfect'.
Machine spirits are simpler AI programs. They just can't be called AI, cause you know, its Heresy. Check out what happens with Titans.
The Emp and the Mechanicus oppose the creation of full blown sentient AI. Simple AI like Machine spirits are not a problem.
The Mechanicum are not independent. They hold a seat on the council of HLoT and could not function without the IoM. Yes, they are technically their own "separate" entity (just like all those puppet states the Soviet Union installed). Any limited knowledge on the functioning of the IoM would make one aware of that.
Who do you think runs the Imperium? Its the High Lords which means that the Mechanicus alongside the other factions helps run the Imperium so they are not taking orders from anyone. They are independent from the rest of the Imperium in that they have their ow religion, their own fleets, their own laws etc. Hell there have been cases where the Mechanicus have condemned entire Imperium worlds to fall by providing no assistance with Tech cause those worlds have done something to offend them but the Imperium itself can do nothing to change the Mechanicus's mind.
Because it is given to us by an omniscient Narrator. Omniscient is the key word. In universe characters are limited by their grasp of reality, personality, personal knowledge, and scope of vieew. Omniscient narrators know everything. Thats the definition of omniscient.
Which ForgeWorld is a part of. They say that the Chaos gods want the galaxy to become one with the Warp. Something I can only see happening when Chaos wins, which they will if the Imperium falls. To bad for you Tau but great news to me .
McNinja wrote:Assuming that Imperium does not crash and burn, one could then say then the Imperium could follow the same history as the Roman Empire did, first breaking into halves, then one half being attacked and the capitol sacked while the other doesn't (or can't) help, then the other half creating a new empire, then the empire whose capitol was sacked splits into smaller kingdoms, then the church on the capitol of that "empire" attempts to spread their faith, then reunites part of the empire, then it follows the rest of European history, but on a galactic scale.
It would be... odd, to say the least, to see this on a galactic scale, and the enemies of the Roman and Holy Roman Empires were not xenopobic and genocidal mooks, so it could be safe to assume that somewhere in there (probably after Terra gets sacked) that (insert army here) could swoop in and destroy the Imperium. That half, at least.
I very much doubt it. I only see either a Chaos or Nid victory so as Chaos Space Marines so often say: "Let the Galaxy burn!"
Rented Tritium wrote:@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.
And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?
I never said it was. I'm saying that we can't take what they think will happen in the future as canon.
You said my concept of the fall of the empire would "not happen" in very strong statements which you backed up with subjective opinions of in-universe characters.
Okay I get what you're saying and I respect that. In the end its up to GW what happens, to me the only logical scenario is that either Nids eat the galaxy or Chaos reigns supreme.
Ogryn wrote:Space marines make up over 50% of GW's money. They will never fall.
CpatTom wrote:Ok, so you shouldn't develop AI cause something bad happened those two times right? How about not having an Emperor, thats screwed up more times than twice throughout history, but that didnt stop the Emperor from making himself Emperor. Cool.
You are hopeless. You don't try and look at things objectively you just spout your opinion, it pointless talking to you.
Remember the Age of Strife and the Iron Men rebellion which helped tremendously in bringing down that age of 'enlightenment.
Thats not a response. If yo don't want to debate a point any further, just remove it from your response.
If humanity stop doing something every time something bad happened the first or second time we did it, we wouldn't have gotten very far from any perspective. So, yes, the Age of Strife happened. Why not stop bitching about it, and get AI right this time? Hell, the Emperor showed hubris in every thing else he did, why not this?
I told you to talk to that poster I praised earlier. He himself stated that the Tau for some reason wiped an entire star-system clean of a sentient species who claimed that star-system first.
But I know you'll ignore it cause Tau are 'perfect'.
Thanks for the source. Now, besides the fact we dont know anything about the reek, and they could be an irrational species of Nid monsters, or could have rebuked all of the Tau Water Caste sent to broker peace. As well as, "This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa." So your example of Tau genocide is the forceful elimination of an attacker from a Tau system. I know that English may not be your fist language, but that one sentence does not mean that the Reek, whoever they are, were exterminated, in anyway whatsoever. It simply means they are no longer present in the Si'Coa system. This is not support for your argument, despite the fact you got "some Tau guy" to admit it (which is also called a fallacy of authority. Simply because he likes the Tau doesn't mean he knows anything about them)
Who do you think runs the Imperium? Its the High Lords which means that the Mechanicus alongside the other factions helps run the Imperium so they are not taking orders from anyone. They are independent from the rest of the Imperium in that they have their ow religion, their own fleets, their own laws etc. Hell there have been cases where the Mechanicus have condemned entire Imperium worlds to fall by providing no assistance with Tech cause those worlds have done something to offend them but the Imperium itself can do nothing to change the Mechanicus's mind.
The Mechanicum weren't ruled by the Emperor? Oh, no, yes they were, they just called him the Omnissah. per lexicanum: "While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). They take orders from the HLoT and the Inquisition, just like everyone else in the Inquisition, because they are part of the Imperium.
Which ForgeWorld is a part of. They say that the Chaos gods want the galaxy to become one with the Warp. Something I can only see happening when Chaos wins, which they will if the Imperium falls. To bad for you Tau but great news to me ..
Something the Chaos gods "want", which you can only assume will happen given some set of circumstances? Yes, and Grey Knights want to kill all the chaos, which I can only assume will happen when the Draigo returns. Not everything a character "wants" to happen comes true, and not everything we assume causes that to happen is right.
Better safe than sorry, AIs are dangerous, the Tau may not get crushed by Imperials or Orks, but their own AIs might just turn on them one day. And even if the Tau don't commit genocide, they still re-educate *cough* brainwash *cough* non-compliant individuals in their Empeire.
CpatTom wrote:Thats not a response. If yo don't want to debate a point any further, just remove it from your response.
If humanity stop doing something every time something bad happened the first or second time we did it, we wouldn't have gotten very far from any perspective. So, yes, the Age of Strife happened. Why not stop bitching about it, and get AI right this time? Hell, the Emperor showed hubris in every thing else he did, why not this?
And risk another AI rebellion? Did you even read the thread I created that had that little comic showing that AI and it terrifying capability to subvert tech and you want to create that again?
The Emp and the Admech both agreed on the issue of NO AI which means that the war with the Iron men was terrible and helped weaken humanity to be hit with the crippling strike of the Warp storms and psykers appearing everywhere.
Thanks for the source. Now, besides the fact we dont know anything about the reek, and they could be an irrational species of Nid monsters, or could have rebuked all of the Tau Water Caste sent to broker peace. As well as, "This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa." So your example of Tau genocide is the forceful elimination of an attacker from a Tau system. I know that English may not be your fist language, but that one sentence does not mean that the Reek, whoever they are, were exterminated, in anyway whatsoever. It simply means they are no longer present in the Si'Coa system. This is not support for your argument, despite the fact you got "some Tau guy" to admit it (which is also called a fallacy of authority. Simply because he likes the Tau doesn't mean he knows anything about them)
It says that they were eliminated, not driven away, they were eliminated. Extermination is still extermination no matter what way you cut it so get over it.
I said you to talk to the guy cause he would be a friendly face compared to me but if you don't want that, thats okay.
The Mechanicum weren't ruled by the Emperor? Oh, no, yes they were, they just called him the Omnissah. per lexicanum: "While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). They take orders from the HLoT and the Inquisition, just like everyone else in the Inquisition, because they are part of the Imperium.
Bzzt, fail! From your link:
While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence. Due to the great amount of power it wields, the Adeptus Mechanicus is more like an allied empire than an organisation within the Imperium.
After the Emperor formed the Imperium, he engendered support with the Martian Mechanicum, an already existing empire. On Mars, he was commonly seen as the Omnissiah, the earthly representative of the Machine God. As the Mechanicum put down a small rebellion by senior tech-priests, the Fabricator-General of Mars and the Emperor signed the Treaty of Mars, allying the two empires, guaranteeing the sovereignty of each. In return for supplying the Imperium with war machines and servicing the technology of the Imperium, any and all STC technology found by the Imperium would be donated to the Mechanicum.
Next about the High-Lords and the Inquistion:
The High Lords
A High Lord of Terra
The following nine offices are almost always represented as High Lords:
The Master of the Administratum The Inquisitorial Representativea The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum
The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators The Master of the Astronomican The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica
So, how is the Mechanicus taking orders from the High-Lords when infact they are a member of the High-Lords?
Finally, the Inquisition's power is not unlimited. If you read the fluff, you would know this that they have to deal with their peers in the Imperium, ex: Space Marine Chapters, Adeptus Mechanicus etc, diplomatically. Also, the Emp doesn't rule the Mehchanicus anymore they do their own thing now.
How about more proof:
Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 178-179 wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus
The servants of the Machine God exist as a nigh autonomous class within the multitude of the Emperor’s servants. They consider themselves outside of many of the laws that govern most of Humanity, and they openly deny many of the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. Despite that this vast, ancient and highly secretive organisation appears to so openly reject the mores of the Imperium, it is ubiquitous. The reason for this is that the Imperium simply could not function without the Priesthood of Mars—all of Mankind’s accomplishments would crumble and fall within a generation were the Tech-Priests to not maintain them. Without them, no space ship would ply the void, no army march to war, no raw material be refined and nothing more than a stone hovel be constructed.
That shows that the Imperium need the Mechanicus more than the Mechanicus need the Imperium.
Also this:
Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 179 wrote:There are uncounted records of confrontation between Inquisitors and members of the Adeptus Mechanicus. To date, such battles have largely been confined to small skirmishes fought between bitter rivals, and have rarely flared up into open conflict between larger numbers of either organisation. Indeed, the Inquisition relies upon the services of the Adeptus Mechanicus as much as any other organisation, and so great pains are often taken to ensure personal conflict between individual Inquisitors and Tech-Priests does not escalate into something more damaging. Despite this, many within the Inquisition resent the attitudes of the Adeptus Mechanicus, while many Tech-Priests begrudge interference from the Inquisition.
It shows that the Inquisition and the Mechanicus fight each other from time to time and the Inquisition actually does everything they can to prevent a full-scale conflict to erupt between them and the Mechanicus cause they too need the Adeptus Mechanicus
Lastly, there is a nice quote from the rpg's that has a Tech-Priest that has turned from the Imperium who makes a nice speech to an Inquisitor that the Adeptus Mechanicus will survive long after the Imperium crumbles to dust.
Something the Chaos gods "want", which you can only assume will happen given some set of circumstances? Yes, and Grey Knights want to kill all the chaos, which I can only assume will happen when the Draigo returns. Not everything a character "wants" to happen comes true, and not everything we assume causes that to happen is right.
The CABAL states a Chaos victory, the Illuminati in the books that feature Jaq Draco are trying to take steps to prevent a Chaos victory so its seems to me that a Chaos is the faction with the highest odds of wining .
Anyway, please don't mention the fail that is Draigo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found that quote I mentioned:
Dark Heresy rpg: The Inquisitor's Handbook pg 146 wrote:“Foolish meat-puppet! You preen and prance before a pathetic
would-be god kept alive only by our arts! You blind yourself
with your talk of heresies and your ineffectual fumblings at
keeping the aether at bay, and for what? You know nothing!
You are nothing! If you had the slightest inkling of the true
patterns of reality you would crawl away and hide! We of the
Mechanicum are, were and shall be. We existed long before
your vain Imperium and we shall remain after it is naught but
cinder ash!”
— The Renegade Magos Malygris, Vox recording
recovered from the body of Inquisitor Balliol.
Yeah, its not from an Omniscient viewpoint but still every interesting .
McNinja wrote:Assuming that Imperium does not crash and burn, one could then say then the Imperium could follow the same history as the Roman Empire did, first breaking into halves, then one half being attacked and the capitol sacked while the other doesn't (or can't) help, then the other half creating a new empire, then the empire whose capitol was sacked splits into smaller kingdoms, then the church on the capitol of that "empire" attempts to spread their faith, then reunites part of the empire, then it follows the rest of European history, but on a galactic scale.
It would be... odd, to say the least, to see this on a galactic scale, and the enemies of the Roman and Holy Roman Empires were not xenopobic and genocidal mooks, so it could be safe to assume that somewhere in there (probably after Terra gets sacked) that (insert army here) could swoop in and destroy the Imperium. That half, at least.
I very much doubt it. I only see either a Chaos or Nid victory so as Chaos Space Marines so often say: "Let the Galaxy burn!"
Honestly, so do I, unless GW pulls some insanity to bring the IoM back from the brink (they probably will). However, if that chaos gods realize that the nids are perhaps their greatest threat to total galactic domination/integration, why don't they pull out all of the stops to halt their advance? I recall that there was a fleet (or splinter fleet) that got caught up fighting a massive daemon force. I do not remember if any one side had the advantage, but seeing as how the daemons are infinite, but the marines are not, shouldn't the Chaos Marines focus their efforts into another Black Crusade (perhaps led by someone a tad more competent)? The stagnant nature of the universe is primarily due to the... loner, I suppose, nature of pretty much everything in it, and since barely anyone works together, no one side can win.
The Tyranids are small portions of a larger fleet, unlikely to conquer the galaxy before the main fleet sets in.
Chaos daemons refuse to simply flood into a planet, considering how many daemons there are, which would grant them almost instant victory (although I could be missing something about how daemons invade a planet).
Chaos Marines work together like a cell phone and water. Their only edge is the gods have their backs (usually).
Eldar are dying, but still xenophobic and would rather use a "lesser" race than actually fight with them.
Dark Eldar don't give a damn, they're safe in their nigh-unassailable home realm, although they tend not to ally themselves with any race without kidnapping or extorting "exchanges" with said races (see Tau encounter with the DE), so don't really care about galactic domination (as far as I know).
Tau are too small to be of any real threat, but are sizeable enough to hold their own for at least a while.
IoM is on the decline. Their forces are spread thin, the SMs are too few, and refuse the help (for the most part) of any other species that offers them assistance.
Orks are just there for the fights. No Waaaaaagh! is big enough or strong enough to take over any significant portion of the galaxy, and because of the many factions, are very unlikely to work together.
The combination of a Black Crusade+massive Daemon assisstance could overwhelm the Tyranids and wipe them out, at least until the main fleet arrives. If one "race" (the CSM's) were to pull out of the galaxy, gather strength, and then go for a huge push, they could overwhlem the galaxy quite quickly.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:And risk another AI rebellion? Did you even read the thread I created that had that little comic showing that AI and it terrifying capability to subvert tech and you want to create that again?
The Emp and the Admech both agreed on the issue of NO AI which means that the war with the Iron men was terrible and helped weaken humanity to be hit with the crippling strike of the Warp storms and psykers appearing everywhere.
Yes, I did, and it was a great short story/comic. I really enjoyed it.
Thinking something will happen because a similar situation ended a certain way is a logical fallacy.
t says that they were eliminated, not driven away, they were eliminated. Extermination is still extermination no matter what way you cut it so get over it.
So, the Reek were willing to join the Tau, and the Tau said no and systematically killed them all?
Maybe they did, but you and I can't know that. You can assume all you want to make the situation fit your argument, but until their is more information on the situation, no one can say what happened.
I said you to talk to the guy cause he would be a friendly face compared to me but if you don't want that, thats okay.
Why would he be a friendly face? Because he likes the Tau? Who I like shouldn't alter my interpretation of what I the text says. If it does I'm doing it wrong.
The Mechanicum weren't ruled by the Emperor? Oh, no, yes they were, they just called him the Omnissah. per lexicanum: "While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). They take orders from the HLoT and the Inquisition, just like everyone else in the Inquisition, because they are part of the Imperium.
Bzzt, fail! From your link:
While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence. Due to the great amount of power it wields, the Adeptus Mechanicus is [b]more like an allied empire than an organisation within the Imperium[/b].
Please read what you post, and comprehend what it says. "More like an allied empire", means it isn't an allied Empire. It is a part of the IoM.
Next about the High-Lords and the Inquistion:
HLoT: Do you understand how a council works? Everyone in the Council is part of the Council, and thus bound to the decisions made by the whole. The Mechanicum could withdraw from the HLoT and IoM, sure, but in order to do so, it has to be a part of the IoM and HLot first. Thanks for proving my point.
The Inquisition draws its power from the Emperor, who is also the Omnissiah (coincidentally the Mechanicum's God), so they do have authority over everyone. Whether or not they obey is a seperate matter entirely.
The High Lords
A High Lord of Terra
The following nine offices are almost always represented as High Lords:
The Master of the Administratum
The Inquisitorial Representativea
The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum
The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites
The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators
The Master of the Astronomican
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica
So, how is the Mechanicus taking orders from the High-Lords when infact they are a member of the High-Lords?
How does a council work?
Finally, the Inquisition's power is not unlimited. If you read the fluff, you would know this that they have to deal with their peers in the Imperium, ex: Space Marine Chapters, Adeptus Mechanicus etc, diplomatically. Also, the Emp doesn't rule the Mehchanicus anymore they do their own thing now.
Their authority is unlimited, as they enforce the will of God. Whether or not you comply with God doesn't change what legal authority the Inquisition does have.
All of this is neat, it shows that The mechanichum needs the Imperium, and vice-a-versa. Great stuff for my point, that they are one single entity that would fail without the other.
How about more proof:
Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 178-179 wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus
The servants of the Machine God exist as a nigh autonomous class within the multitude of the Emperor’s servants. They
consider themselves outside of many of the laws that govern
most of Humanity, and they openly deny many of the teachings
of the Ecclesiarchy. Despite that this vast, ancient and highly
secretive organisation appears to so openly reject the mores of
the Imperium, it is ubiquitous. The reason for this is that the
Imperium simply could not function without the Priesthood of
Mars—all of Mankind’s accomplishments would crumble and
fall within a generation were the Tech-Priests to not maintain
them. Without them, no space ship would ply the void, no
army march to war, no raw material be refined and nothing
more than a stone hovel be constructed.
That shows that the Imperium need the Mechanicus more than the Mechanicus need the Imperium.
Also this:
Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 179 wrote:There are uncounted records of confrontation between
Inquisitors and members of the Adeptus Mechanicus. To date,
such battles have largely been confined to small skirmishes
fought between bitter rivals, and have rarely flared up into
open conflict between larger numbers of either organisation.
Indeed, the Inquisition relies upon the services of the Adeptus
Mechanicus as much as any other organisation, and so great
pains are often taken to ensure personal conflict between
individual Inquisitors and Tech-Priests does not escalate into
something more damaging. Despite this, many within the
Inquisition resent the attitudes of the Adeptus Mechanicus,
while many Tech-Priests begrudge interference from
the Inquisition.
It shows that the Inquisition and the Mechanicus fight each other from time to time and the Inquisition actually does everything they can to prevent a full-scale conflict to erupt between them and the Mechanicus cause they too need the Adeptus Mechanicus
Lastly, there is a nice quote from the rpg's that has a Tech-Priest that has turned from the Imperium who makes a nice speech to an Inquisitor that the Adeptus Mechanicus will survive long after the Imperium crumbles to dust.
Dark Heresy rpg: The Inquisitor's Handbook pg 146 wrote:“Foolish meat-puppet! You preen and prance before a pathetic
would-be god kept alive only by our arts! You blind yourself
with your talk of heresies and your ineffectual fumblings at
keeping the aether at bay, and for what? You know nothing!
You are nothing! If you had the slightest inkling of the true
patterns of reality you would crawl away and hide! We of the
Mechanicum are, were and shall be. We existed long before
your vain Imperium and we shall remain after it is naught but
cinder ash!”
— The Renegade Magos Malygris, Vox recording
recovered from the body of Inquisitor Balliol.
Yeah, its not from an Omniscient viewpoint but still every interesting .
Yeah, and I'm sure the Tau think they'll last longer than the Imperium. One fast well placed Nid fleet and all those "The Tau will rule the galaxy one day" guys would be wrong.
One void dragon/necron awakening, and What now? (still interesting nonetheless)
Take it up with GW, The Emperor and the Mechanicus then. Cause current evidence shows that making sentient AI is a bad, bad idea.
Maybe they did, but you and I can't know that. You can assume all you want to make the situation fit your argument, but until their is more information on the situation, no one can say what happened.
The link pretty much stated that they were eliminated. Why? I don't know but that was an extermination war in that they wanted the cleanse the system of Reek. End of story.
Why would he be a friendly face? Because he likes the Tau? Who I like shouldn't alter my interpretation of what I the text says. If it does I'm doing it wrong.
Yes, a friendly face compared to me.
Please read what you post, and comprehend what it says. "More like an allied empire", means it isn't an allied Empire. It is a part of the IoM.
No its you who has to fic your reading comprehension cause of this:
While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence. Due to the great amount of power it wields, the Adeptus Mechanicus is more like an allied empirethan an organisation within the Imperium.
Notice the 'than'. The Mechanicus are part of the Imperium but not in the sense that they are subordinate; they are allied to the Imperium forged by treaties that ensure their sovereignthy from direct rule by the Imperium. The Mechanicus rule themselves but use their position as leaders of the Imperium and as utterly important to the survival of the Imperium to enforce their rules of stagnation on the Imperium and again cause of how important they are, people go along with it not that they like it.
Next about the High-Lords and the Inquistion:
HLoT: Do you understand how a council works? Everyone in the Council is part of the Council, and thus bound to the decisions made by the whole. The Mechanicum could withdraw from the HLoT and IoM, sure, but in order to do so, it has to be a part of the IoM and HLot first. Thanks for proving my point.
No, thanks for proving my point. The Mechanicus are the ones responsible for imposing the failing tech level on the Imperium, the Emperor wanted tech to advance in all areas but AI. Also, you don't seem to understand how politics work in the Imperium. They claim that all they do is in the name of the Emperor when it actually isn't.
The Inquisition draws its power from the Emperor, who is also the Omnissiah (coincidentally the Mechanicum's God), so they do have authority over everyone. Whether or not they obey is a seperate matter entirely.
No the Inquisition theoretically has unlimited power, practically they don't.
How does a council work?
Doesn't mean they take orders from the council like lapdogs cause the leader of the Mechanicus is a member of the council. They try and make decisions based on input fro the various members and intelligence(whether the input or whatever data is accurate or inaccurate is another matter entirely).
Their authority is unlimited, as they enforce the will of God. Whether or not you comply with God doesn't change what legal authority the Inquisition does have.
The Catholic church, IIRC, stated that all it did over the period of the Dark Ages of Europe and beyond was done by the will of god. This still didn't stop the various christian leaders from snubbing the church and telling it to frak off.
Fluff is very clear on this matter, the Inquisition doesn't have unlimited power, get over it!
Hell, Dark Heresy has an Inquisitor who believes that the Emp is dead, the Imperium and thus humanity is doomed and Chaos will reign supreme.
All of this is neat, it shows that The mechanichum needs the Imperium, and vice-a-versa. Great stuff for my point, that they are one single entity that would fail without the other.
Yeah, and I'm sure the Tau think they'll last longer than the Imperium. One fast well placed Nid fleet and all those "The Tau will rule the galaxy one day" guys would be wrong.
One void dragon/necron awakening, and What now? (still interesting nonetheless)
*facepalm*
I will reiterate again! The Imperium needs the Mechanicus more than the Mechanicus needs the Imperium. They are allied due to the treaties forged all those years ago but since that time the Mechanicus have gained a lot of power and now enforce stagnation upon the Imperium. Hell if a fellow 40ker on SB is right; the Fabricator General of Mars has an entire closet of STC tech and Mechanicus tech kept hidden on Mars that if were ever released would help the Imperium a lot. But the Mechanicus won't do that cause they're douches!
My point is the Inquisition has theoretical power over everyone, including the Mechanicum. Thats all I said. I never said they could enforce it. Does the Inquisition have theoretical power over the Mechanicum?
Enforcement is another matter entirely, and the Inquisition can not enforce it. I agree with that 100%.
Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". Are you going to say that rid means to systematically and deliberately expunge?
The STC's are hoarded by certain Forgeworlds in order to increase the importance of that Forgeworld. So it it very likely that the Fabricator General has lots and lots of STC's stashed away.
The passage about the reek is so vague. You can draw all kinds of conclusions from it. Unless the reek show up again, we won't know anything about them. We don't even know if they are actually sentient or if they are in fact a they and not an it.
CpatTom wrote:Is the Mechanicum part of the Imperium of Man?
Kind of.
My point is the Inquisition has theoretical power over everyone, including the Mechanicum. Thats all I said. I never said they could enforce it. Does the Inquisition have theoretical power over the Mechanicum?
Enforcement is another matter entirely, and the Inquisition can not enforce it. I agree with that 100%.
All that matters is practicality not theoretical.
Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". Are you going to say that rid means to systematically and deliberately expunge?
You own post says "the will to rid"
The STC's are hoarded by certain Forgeworlds in order to increase the importance of that Forgeworld. So it it very likely that the Fabricator General has lots and lots of STC's stashed away.
Thats why I said that the Mechanicus is responsible for the Imperium's stagnation due to the Mechanicus being douches.
nomotog wrote:The passage about the reek is so vague. You can draw all kinds of conclusions from it. Unless the reek show up again, we won't know anything about them. We don't even know if they are actually sentient or if they are in fact a they and not an it.
Lexicanum says this:
The Reek2-p42, also known as the Noisome Reek, are a race of aliens that form part of the Worldweave of the Noisome Reek, a fledgling empire that is beginning to conquer Imperium space.1-p119
Among noted engagements with Mankind included with members of the Arcadius dynasty of Rogue Traders. A voidswarm of Reek encountered the forces of Abad of the Arcadius at the Battle of Ghallenburg. Abad managed to battle the Reek and single-handedly managed to stem the tide of the xeno interface vessels as they made planetfall.3
Members of this race are known to had occupied the Si'coa system that fell under the dominion of the Tau Empire. This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa.2-p42
Make up your own conclusion. I have already done so.
Well, thats conclusive. I'll help you out. Yes they are. No "kind of" about it.
All that matters is practicality not theoretical.
Except, if the Inquisition has authority over the Mechanicum, then the Mechanicum are part of the IoM.
You own post says "the will to rid"
Rid, verb: 1. Make someone or something free of (a troublesome or unwanted person or thing): "rid the world of nuclear weapons".
2. Be freed or relieved from. Where does that say xenocide?
Thats why I said that the Mechanicus is responsible for the Imperium's stagnation due to the Mechanicus being douches.
Not disagreeing here, supporting your point. I don't have any sources, but I do believe you are correct on the thought that STC's are hoarded.
Make up your own conclusion. I have already done so.
Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". This is what the Lexicanum cites as the source for that. This takes precedence.
As long as you are admitting you are making up your conclusions though
.
I'll punch you in the face 
. Here are the links to 
I really got to work on my english. I mean what makes the blade so special that it can wound Horus?
for you you don't give a 
