CpatTom wrote: Well, thats conclusive. I'll help you out. Yes they are. No "kind of" about it.
No, its kind of. Cause of the Mechanicus wanted to, they could destroy the Imperium. They have a monopoly over Imperial technology, they are part of the Imperium leadership. You make it sound like they are subordinate to the Imperium which is false.
Except, if the Inquisition has authority over the Mechanicum, then the Mechanicum are part of the IoM.
The Inquisition has no true authority over the Mechanicus so again fail.
Rid, verb: 1. Make someone or something free of (a troublesome or unwanted person or thing): "rid the world of nuclear weapons". 2. Be freed or relieved from. Where does that say xenocide?
Read the kink. It said eliminate and the Reek are a sentient race so again fail.
Not disagreeing here, supporting your point. I don't have any sources, but I do believe you are correct on the thought that STC's are hoarded.
Glad we could agree.
Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". This is what the Lexicanum cites as the source for that. This takes precedence.
As long as you are admitting you are making up your conclusions though
Am I making wrong conclusion? Or are you just ignoring evidence cause it mars your idea of Tau mary sueness ;-)? The quote gives the impression that the Reek, which to be frank is an insulting name for a race, from a star-system which could mean any number of things, one of them meaning eliminated.
Something the lexicanum says on the internet is more right than the Codex that it cites as the source? The source is right, the Lexicanum is wrong. The Tau rid the system of Reek: The Reek could have been forced out of the system. They could have also been violently hunted down and murdered as they slept. Given that I have no information on what the situation is, I won't make anything up.
I make it sound like they are a part of the IoM, because they are. And you dont think the Mechanicum would fold in a war against the rest of the IoM. How would they be getting the raw materials, food stuffs or manpower Imperial Technology requires to make viable warfare. Oh, right, they'd use their AI.
CpatTom wrote:Something the lexicanum says on the internet is more right than the Codex that it cites as the source? The source is right, the Lexicanum is wrong. The Tau rid the system of Reek: The Reek could have been forced out of the system. They could have also been violently hunted down and murdered as they slept. Given that I have no information on what the situation is, I won't make anything up.
Oh calm down. I did put a wink icon of this ;-) . I will be checking out the book soon just in case so you better not be lying . Heh, heh. I agree however that the fluff is very vague but it does give an impression that the Tau did naughty things .
I make it sound like they are a part of the IoM, because they are. And you dont think the Mechanicum would fold in a war against the rest of the IoM.
Who has the collection of STC tech? Not the Imperium but the Mechanicus. Who are the ones who create and maintain the technology? Not the Imperium, but the Mechanicus of course.
I dispute you making it sound like the Mechanicus are the subordinate of the Imperium when that is false. They are part of the leadership of the Imperium and the ones who have a stranglehold on Imperium tech.
How would they be getting the raw materials, food stuffs or manpower Imperial Technology requires to make viable warfare. Oh, right, they'd use their AI.
The Mechanicus have their own fleet. The Mechanicus have entire star-systems under their control. They don't use sentient AI but machine spirits which are low-level AI or AI based on animal thought patterns, whichever makes the most sense.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Oh calm down. I did put a wink icon of this ;-) . I will be checking out the book soon just in case so you better not be lying . Heh, heh. I agree however that the fluff is very vague but it does give an impression that the Tau did naughty things .
No doubt they did naughty things. This is 40k. The Tau have just been good about cleaning up after themselves.
Who has the collection of STC tech? Not the Imperium but the Mechanicus. Who are the ones who create and maintain the technology? Not the Imperium, but the Mechanicus of course.
I dispute you making it sound like the Mechanicus are the subordinate of the Imperium when that is false. They are part of the leadership of the Imperium and the ones who have a stranglehold on Imperium tech.
Not subordinate to the IoM. Subordinate to the Emperor (In theory, thus subordinate to the =I=, again, in theory, until the Golden Sarcophagus does some major voodoo zombie magic these will be largely unenforcable).
I think it fair to consider a war between the Mechanicum and the rest of the Imperium (Custodes, Astartes, IG, Navy, etc) would not end well for either.
]The Mechanicus have their own fleet. The Mechanicus have entire star-systems under their control. They don't use sentient AI but machine spirits which are low-level AI or AI based on animal thought patterns, whichever makes the most sense.
Higher and Lower AI are interesting philosophical topics, which leads to all sorts of bs like the existence of free will etc. Which are way to complex to be fun to talk about on a 40k forum.
CpatTom wrote: No doubt they did naughty things. This is 40k. The Tau have just been good about cleaning up after themselves.
Just read the book and the quote you posted is accurate. It really is vague and can gives all kinds of implications
Not subordinate to the IoM. Subordinate to the Emperor (In theory, thus subordinate to the =I=, again, in theory, until the Golden Sarcophagus does some major voodoo zombie magic these will be largely unenforcable).
Which is what I've been saying all along. Because of that situation the Mechanicus are pretty much independent.
I think it fair to consider a war between the Mechanicum and the rest of the Imperium (Custodes, Astartes, IG, Navy, etc) would not end well for either.
I think the Mechanicus would have a great advantage in that all tech in the Imperium needs them to be repaired, built, experimented on etc. They could do a lot of damage to the Imperium using sabotage alone. I believe that the Imperium would be the one to suffer the most.
Higher and Lower AI are interesting philosophical topics, which leads to all sorts of bs like the existence of free will etc. Which are way to complex to be fun to talk about on a 40k forum.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Just read the book and the quote you posted is accurate. It really is vague and can gives all kinds of implications
Hopefully the new codex will expand this bit of fluff. I am not going to hold my breath for answers or clarification from GW though. Haha.
Which is what I've been saying all along. Because of that situation the Mechanicus are pretty much independent.
That's where I have my issue: independent. I think the Mechnicus wields an incredible amount of authority within the IoM; however, I don't think any element of the IoM capable of escaping the political quagmire that has risen to power with the internment of the Emperor.
I think the Mechanicus would have a great advantage in that all tech in the Imperium needs them to be repaired, built, experimented on etc. They could do a lot of damage to the Imperium using sabotage alone. I believe that the Imperium would be the one to suffer the most.
Certainly, in a vacuum I think I the Mechanicus would have the best opportunity for continued existence after a conflict between IoM factions.
Certainly in the setting though: a war between the two kills both by weakening themselves in a galaxy full of Xenos, Heretics and Mutants bent on the extermination of Humanity. (Think how good the Greater Good starts to sound when the IoM fractures! Gue'vesa everywhere .
CpatTom wrote:Hopefully the new codex will expand this bit of fluff. I am not going to hold my breath for answers or clarification from GW though. Haha.
That's where I have my issue: independent. I think the Mechnicus wields an incredible amount of authority within the IoM; however, I don't think any element of the IoM capable of escaping the political quagmire that has risen to power with the internment of the Emperor.
A political quagmire they themselves created. Also, humans were just being humans.
Certainly, in a vacuum I think I the Mechanicus would have the best opportunity for continued existence after a conflict between IoM factions.
Glad you agree with me .
Certainly in the setting though: a war between the two kills both by weakening themselves in a galaxy full of Xenos, Heretics and Mutants bent on the extermination of Humanity. (Think how good the Greater Good starts to sound when the IoM fractures! Gue'vesa everywhere .
Never going to happen cause the galaxy will fall to Chaos or us Orks first .
I feel that the God Emperor will eventually die and the Imperium will break into an even bigger mess of disorganized groups, but this time with large warring factions.
The big, main enemies of the IoM will take advantage of the chaos and gain some sizable chunks of space for their species.
Then the Imperium eventually quells the infighting and becomes even more depressing and repressed than before.
Speaking of which, I wish they'd move the story forward. :|
I'd say that the Imperium is definitely doomed and I say that because of the lack of education. You notice in the codex that many variants of tanks and technology is dying out, science being replaced by superstition. Machine Spirits? chyea right, but the people don't know better. This stagnation of technology and thought is killing the human race's chances of survival. In the core worlds, all the populace is taught is to love the emperor. In the worlds with conflict, all the populace is taught is how to fight with poor tactician leaders, and to love the emperor. The Empire will fall, just because it will get to a point where all technology becomes a giant mystery and without free thought and innovation, there will be no way to gain it back without backtracking thousands and thousands of years, and by then, it'll be too late.
SoliderSnake wrote:I'd say that the Imperium is definitely doomed and I say that because of the lack of education. You notice in the codex that many variants of tanks and technology is dying out, science being replaced by superstition. Machine Spirits? chyea right, but the people don't know better. This stagnation of technology and thought is killing the human race's chances of survival. In the core worlds, all the populace is taught is to love the emperor. In the worlds with conflict, all the populace is taught is how to fight with poor tactician leaders, and to love the emperor. The Empire will fall, just because it will get to a point where all technology becomes a giant mystery and without free thought and innovation, there will be no way to gain it back without backtracking thousands and thousands of years, and by then, it'll be too late.
Humans survive by adapting. Throughout history, any society that has not adapted has failed (see the middle ages/"dark" ages) and imploded on itself. The Imperium is headed for destruction not only at the hands of their enemies, but also at the hands of those humans who want to be free.
Humanity will not fall completely. They will fracture into groups. Those that do not adapt to their enemies will fall, and fall hard.
Croaker wrote:I feel that the God Emperor will eventually die and the Imperium will break into an even bigger mess of disorganized groups, but this time with large warring factions.
The big, main enemies of the IoM will take advantage of the chaos and gain some sizable chunks of space for their species.
Then the Imperium eventually quells the infighting and becomes even more depressing and repressed than before.
Speaking of which, I wish they'd move the story forward. :|
No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (Him being the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
I agree. The Emperor is far, far more likely to make their little heads explode than he is to accept them as anything other than mass-murdering lunatics.
Ascalam wrote:One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
I'm pretty sure that the cleansing of the 'star child cult' was a cover-up of those in the know to prevent those not supposed to know from catching on. The Emperor Himself admitted as much to Draco that He was forced to cast out the spirit of goodness, compassion, hope when He destroyed Horus (and apparently the Emperor regretted this), and that spirit guided Draco to the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
You really think the Astartes will fight against the Emperor? The Astartes dislike the Administratum, even the loyalists during the Heresy, and they only accept the Administratum because the Emperor entrusted it with the Imperium's governance. And the Emperor knows what the Inquisition does, after all, He holds audiences with the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle periodically.
Possibly, possibly not As it stands though they've not even touched the Star Child thing since 2nd ed, except to purge it in the 3rd ed rulebook, at least in official codex/rulebook fluff (as far as I'm aware). BL is possibly different, but is also non-canon (unless you want to accept all the contradictions as simultaneously true ).
Having a spirit portion floating around as a celestial usher isn't quite the same as being born again as a god He is nothing BUT spirit (and a rotting corpse on death-support) in any case, right now.
Astartes fighting the emperor?
That's never happened before. Gods forbid *heavy sarcasm *
They might. If nothing else, they might consider him to be a Chaos ploy, not the Real Thing...
The Malleus claim to hear him. Who's going to call them a liar and live?
Ascalam wrote:One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
I'm pretty sure that the cleansing of the 'star child cult' was a cover-up of those in the know to prevent those not supposed to know from catching on. The Emperor Himself admitted as much to Draco that He was forced to cast out the spirit of goodness, compassion, hope when He destroyed Horus (and apparently the Emperor regretted this), and that spirit guided Draco to the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
You really think the Astartes will fight against the Emperor? The Astartes dislike the Administratum, even the loyalists during the Heresy, and they only accept the Administratum because the Emperor entrusted it with the Imperium's governance. And the Emperor knows what the Inquisition does, after all, He holds audiences with the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle periodically.
I created a civil war thread several months ago. Many thought that humanity would just fall in line behind the emperor. That is naive at best. The Horus heresy proved that wrong quite effectively.
The high lords would be likely to turn traitor before giving up the power that has likely been theirs for decades if not many times more. Then this would start a Dominoes effect. High lords being the most realistic leader to any imperial citizen now for thousands of years would turn entire systems against the IoM. Most people are most likely ready to die for the emperor these days because they would be killed if they don't. With the threat of the inquisition gone I think the amount of rebels would be surprising.
- -
Obviously the emperor would have control of the most important forces, the space marines. However the large amount of new traitors would definitely welcome the support of their new chaos space marine friends. Unlikely before however now they are faced with certain defeat if they do not join the forces of chaos. People have turned traitor for much less before.....
Now before the CSM's could help their new traitor high lords out. They would need help first....... Cadia would have to fall. I believe this would be the first major act of treason from the new traitor forces in the civil war. Abbadon would now the thorn that is Cadia removed from his side and have unbridled access to real space. Before you know it, the emperor coming back was what the IoM wanted as a whole, now it has split the imperium in two.
Not to mention the countless opportunities to expand every enemy of the imperium now has.......
Ascalam wrote:One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
I'm pretty sure that the cleansing of the 'star child cult' was a cover-up of those in the know to prevent those not supposed to know from catching on. The Emperor Himself admitted as much to Draco that He was forced to cast out the spirit of goodness, compassion, hope when He destroyed Horus (and apparently the Emperor regretted this), and that spirit guided Draco to the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
You really think the Astartes will fight against the Emperor? The Astartes dislike the Administratum, even the loyalists during the Heresy, and they only accept the Administratum because the Emperor entrusted it with the Imperium's governance. And the Emperor knows what the Inquisition does, after all, He holds audiences with the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle periodically.
I created a civil war thread several months ago. Many thought that humanity would just fall in line behind the emperor. That is naive at best. The Horus heresy proved that wrong quite effectively.
The high lords would be likely to turn traitor before giving up the power that has likely been theirs for decades if not many times more. Then this would start a Dominoes effect. High lords being the most realistic leader to any imperial citizen now for thousands of years would turn entire systems against the IoM. Most people are most likely ready to die for the emperor these days because they would be killed if they don't. With the threat of the inquisition gone I think the amount of rebels would be surprising. - - Obviously the emperor would have control of the most important forces, the space marines. However the large amount of new traitors would definitely welcome the support of their new chaos space marine friends. Unlikely before however now they are faced with certain defeat if they do not join the forces of chaos. People have turned traitor for much less before.....
Now before the CSM's could help their new traitor high lords out. They would need help first....... Cadia would have to fall. I believe this would be the first major act of treason from the new traitor forces in the civil war. Abbadon would now the thorn that is Cadia removed from his side and have unbridled access to real space. Before you know it, the emperor coming back was what the IoM wanted as a whole, now it has split the imperium in two.
Not to mention the countless opportunities to expand every enemy of the imperium now has.......
He probably won't disband the High Lords. Just, reorganize them back to their original form, the Council of Terra, with Himself as the head, and the Ecclesiarch off the Council. The Space Marines would always side with the Emperor (loyalist ones obviously), and since the Mechanicus believes the Emperor is the Omnissiah they would be loyal to the Emperor. And the Inquisition will still be there. Malcador formed the Inquisition on the Emperor's orders. The Imperial Truth would be reintroduced slowly, not by force, but by the same method the Emperor used before, by refuting its leaders personally, and re-educating the masses. The Mechanicus would support this, simce their only rival would be eliminated, and as for Abaddon, no offense but he's nothing compared to Horus or a Primarch. He can't really confront the Emperor on equal terms. The Emperor would use His powers to counteract any 'trick' or ploy Erebus and any sorcerer could think of, and once the Emperor arrives at Cadia, any Black Crusade is practically over. I'm not saying it will be done in an instant, maybe a few centuries or a full millennium, and the Imperium's size would be reduced by half at most, but the Emperor's patient, and it can be done.
And while the Star Child was never mentioned again, and was purged (supposedly), as I said before, this was implied to be a cover up by the Inquisition, and the later Codexes never actually stated that the Star Child was non-canon.
Tadashi wrote: The Space Marines would always side with the Emperor (loyalist ones obviously), and since the Mechanicus believes the Emperor is the Omnissiah they would be loyal to the Emperor. And the Inquisition will still be there. Malcador formed the Inquisition on the Emperor's orders.
If the Emperor comes back (which is doubtful), he will abolish the Codex Astartes and reform the Legions, congealing the thousands of secondary and terchiary foundings into a single entity. The only problem with this is that almost each Space Marine chapter has forged their proud histories throughout the centuries, but they're forced to eschew their heritage and pride and congeal with other Chapters with almost alien rituals and mannerisms?
The Emperor will not be recieved by as many Space Marines after he reforms the legions. And the Mechanicus will have their own problems when the Void Dragon starts playing around with their stuffs in reckless abandon.
And the Inquisition will be a pale shadow if its former self. Malcador may have formed the Inquisition on the Emperor's Orders, but that does not mean the Inquisition would adhere to it; Political Strife and Genocide marr the colors of the Inquisition, so the Emperor would clean house fantastically and rebuild the Inquisition himself.
I'm not even going to go into the Sisters of Battle territory. They seem a little Lorgar-esque in that regard.
Plus there are the unknown Primarchs to think about...
As I said it will take time, but the Emperor will reform and adapt the Imperium to current needs. I doubt he'd take a step back historically. It's purely speculation anyway. If the Imperium falls, bang, there goes 40k. So it's not gonna happen, the Imperium will never fall.
The imperium falling doesnt mean the end of 40k.
The whole game isnt imperial forces, I mean there's still Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau and Tyranids if you outright dropped the imperial forces.
And just because the Imperium falls doesnt mean the Space Marine Chapters would be gone, just more independant and possibly operating in a lesser capacity.
The biggest changes I think would be to sisters and the imperial guard.
Guard becoming more small armies under local rulers and whatnot, or almost mercanary like bands working for new, small empires within the galaxy.
It would create more diverse human races as opposed to the dogmatic Imperial armies there are currently.
I think post-fall would be far more interesting, personally.
Sections of a fallen Imperium, struggling to reconnect and re-expand, cut off from each other, and relying on their own resources and fragments of the Adeptus Mechanicus (or gods forbid some actual human ingenuity...)
Some abandoning the Imperial Creed (E's dead) others maintaining it (he MIGHT be back )
You could have current imperial - hidebound, tech-fetishist religious- and new human - progressive, inventive and atheistic (more like E wanted in the first place, supposedly ; )
I think the Fall of the Imperium would be one of the best things that could feasibly happen to WH40K. It would progress the story considerably allowing for a MUCH more diverse background and decidedly more interesting armies.
While I agree it would make things far more interesting fluff and game wise, I can't see GW ever doing it. It's too much change to the core fluff, and would be a huge risk for them financially.
It's widely known the emperor is actually an ork with a REALLY GOOD MASK! So yeah when he's done sleeping he's gonna let his boyz in and everything will be better honest
In all seriousness though I think the return of the emperor would heighten the power of chaos once more actually. Think of it in a sense of dramatics with the rise of a "Neo" so too must the system become more dangerous for everyone but him... Chaos demons drawn to earth from the psychic resonance marines turning like it had with Horus back in the day ect ect ect.
As far is fall? Meh probably but not until GW realizes they could make a killing doing so.
Dytalus wrote:While I agree it would make things far more interesting fluff and game wise, I can't see GW ever doing it. It's too much change to the core fluff, and would be a huge risk for them financially.
What risk? All the model lines would still be fully supported, and all the codexes still valid. It would also break the annoying setting deadlock that's been turning local players off 40K and onto Warmachine et al, as they have a living storyline that actually progresses occasionally.
It IS a progression of the core fluff, but all the old fluff isn't getting retconned, which is the only way to keep things fresh right now. Hell you cold even have the Emperor come back to lead the loyal humans, reduced in power a bit due to his time dead, and maybe even take him as a SC, with an appropriately kick-ass model... THAT would have the IOM fanboys stacking up their cash, and Big E re-building his empire like it's the old days would probably massibvely boost marine sales/smacktalk without having him be the annoying win-button 'when he wakes he'll auto-own everything' that people keep claiming now. Have him reincarnate as an uber human, and go kick some butt to do the Imperium right this time...
A reborn Emperor reuniting a broken Imperium decades after His 'death' would advance the storyline greatly, but I think what some people are saying is a permanent death for the Emperor. If that happens, then in a few centuries, or even a couple of decades considering mankind's unstable collective psychic nature, the Fall of Humanity would occur, creating a fifth Chaos Power, destroying the human race, and expanding the Eye of Terror across most of the galaxy.
While its true that GW will never let the plot move foreword, in a purely fluff based argument, heres what i think would occur. In the fluff as is, and this bit is fact, no specualtion, the largest tyranid fleet is about to slam into the milky way, the largest ork waaagh in history is building up everywhere, the necrons are starting to truelly awaken, the Tau are pushing the envelop on their technology, which will soon lead to the 4th sphere expansion, which will be next to unstoppable until the Imperiums giant ass war fleets arrive years later. The 14th black crusade will be starting soon, and a faction of the Eldar are trying to reclaim their fallen empire. With all this going on, The Imperium of man will either be forced to unite with other races (Mainstream eldar, tau, maybe even a begrudging alliance with chaos. Not by any means a tag team, just a momentary cease fire, space marines are space marines till the end after all.), or more likely, the Imperium as we know it will collapse in on itself. While chaos, the necrons, the tau, and the orks duke it out, The Imperium will splinter and fall apart into individual kingdoms, the greates of which shall be Ultramar, where the vast amount of former Imperial forces will gather to hold out. This would be what Leman Russ called "The Wolfe Time". According to fluff, all or most of the loyal primarchs shall return for the final battle. as far as i can tell, the orks will try to fight everything eveywhere, win for a while, but over all be thrown back into obscurity. The Necrons will wake up, and start harvesting the other races, but between the Eldar, The super powered Tau war machine, and the undying legions of chaos, the necrons will also be killed off for the most part. The Tyranids will show up, and again try to fight everyone everywhere, start to win, but eventually be exterminated by Eldar, Tau, and chaos. you have to remember, The Chaos legions will always retunr, daemons never truely die, and there will always be Chaos Space Marines around to ruin your day. After the fall of the tyranids, The Eldar will be the next to go, which will give rise to the birth of the Eldar God Ynead (i forget the spelling), who will be the only thing stopping chaos from whipping the floor with everyone instantly. I do beleive that this is where malal will rear his ugly head, the mostly fogotten fifth Chaos God of anarchy. He is as strong as khonre, nurgle, tzeentch, ans slaneesh put togeather, which should be more than a match for Ynead. But while gods fight their battle, the remianign players in the galactic game, The Tau and Chaos Marines, will war it out. The whole time, humanity will be marshelling its last stand against the terror. The Tau will put up a good fight, but one ynead dies, the full Ruinous powers will devour the Tau race like a whale eating Krill. after that, we are left with the mortal enemies, imperium and Chaos. As much as id love to say Chaos will win, i knwo that something stupid and cheesy would happen, and the emporor will come back to life...After a fight between Daemon Primarchs and Loyalist Primearchs, agaisnt the untold trillions of chaos marines, warriors, and daemons agains the full strenght of the space marines, of course. Th eImperium will win, but only just, and the Warhammer $0k story arc will end with the Second Great Crusade, lead by the emporor and Rogal Dorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Theres always the other theory, that the Emporor faked his own death, to end the civil war and buy hi time to gather enough power to smight his foes once and for all
blaze115 wrote:While its true that GW will never let the plot move foreword, in a purely fluff based argument, heres what i think would occur. In the fluff as is, and this bit is fact, no specualtion, the largest tyranid fleet is about to slam into the milky way, the largest ork waaagh in history is building up everywhere, the necrons are starting to truelly awaken, the Tau are pushing the envelop on their technology, which will soon lead to the 4th sphere expansion, which will be next to unstoppable until the Imperiums giant ass war fleets arrive years later. The 14th black crusade will be starting soon, and a faction of the Eldar are trying to reclaim their fallen empire. With all this going on, The Imperium of man will either be forced to unite with other races (Mainstream eldar, tau, maybe even a begrudging alliance with chaos. Not by any means a tag team, just a momentary cease fire, space marines are space marines till the end after all.), or more likely, the Imperium as we know it will collapse in on itself. While chaos, the necrons, the tau, and the orks duke it out, The Imperium will splinter and fall apart into individual kingdoms, the greates of which shall be Ultramar, where the vast amount of former Imperial forces will gather to hold out. This would be what Leman Russ called "The Wolfe Time". According to fluff, all or most of the loyal primarchs shall return for the final battle. as far as i can tell, the orks will try to fight everything eveywhere, win for a while, but over all be thrown back into obscurity. The Necrons will wake up, and start harvesting the other races, but between the Eldar, The super powered Tau war machine, and the undying legions of chaos, the necrons will also be killed off for the most part. The Tyranids will show up, and again try to fight everyone everywhere, start to win, but eventually be exterminated by Eldar, Tau, and chaos. you have to remember, The Chaos legions will always retunr, daemons never truely die, and there will always be Chaos Space Marines around to ruin your day. After the fall of the tyranids, The Eldar will be the next to go, which will give rise to the birth of the Eldar God Ynead (i forget the spelling), who will be the only thing stopping chaos from whipping the floor with everyone instantly. I do beleive that this is where malal will rear his ugly head, the mostly fogotten fifth Chaos God of anarchy. He is as strong as khonre, nurgle, tzeentch, ans slaneesh put togeather, which should be more than a match for Ynead. But while gods fight their battle, the remianign players in the galactic game, The Tau and Chaos Marines, will war it out. The whole time, humanity will be marshelling its last stand against the terror. The Tau will put up a good fight, but one ynead dies, the full Ruinous powers will devour the Tau race like a whale eating Krill. after that, we are left with the mortal enemies, imperium and Chaos. As much as id love to say Chaos will win, i knwo that something stupid and cheesy would happen, and the emporor will come back to life...After a fight between Daemon Primarchs and Loyalist Primearchs, agaisnt the untold trillions of chaos marines, warriors, and daemons agains the full strenght of the space marines, of course. Th eImperium will win, but only just, and the Warhammer $0k story arc will end with the Second Great Crusade, lead by the emporor and Rogal Dorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Theres always the other theory, that the Emporor faked his own death, to end the civil war and buy hi time to gather enough power to smight his foes once and for all
Great idea. Maybe it's both. While the Emperor's soul gets a short 'rest' and consolidates his new power (from mankind's collective belief in Him) in the warp, the human race will be pushed to the brink of destruction. Once all of mankind's enemies have exhausted themselves, the Emperor and the loyal Primarchs will return (like the Emperor 'appeared' at the end of the Age of Strife) to reunite what's left of mankind are finally conquer the galaxy.
But no, while the Imperium (or what's left of it) might make an alliance with the Tau and/or the Eldar, it's not gonna happen with the Forces of Chaos.
blaze115 wrote:While its true that GW will never let the plot move foreword, in a purely fluff based argument, heres what i think would occur. In the fluff as is, and this bit is fact, no specualtion, the largest tyranid fleet is about to slam into the milky way, the largest ork waaagh in history is building up everywhere, the necrons are starting to truelly awaken, the Tau are pushing the envelop on their technology, which will soon lead to the 4th sphere expansion, which will be next to unstoppable until the Imperiums giant ass war fleets arrive years later. The 14th black crusade will be starting soon, and a faction of the Eldar are trying to reclaim their fallen empire. With all this going on, The Imperium of man will either be forced to unite with other races (Mainstream eldar, tau, maybe even a begrudging alliance with chaos. Not by any means a tag team, just a momentary cease fire, space marines are space marines till the end after all.), or more likely, the Imperium as we know it will collapse in on itself. While chaos, the necrons, the tau, and the orks duke it out, The Imperium will splinter and fall apart into individual kingdoms, the greates of which shall be Ultramar, where the vast amount of former Imperial forces will gather to hold out. This would be what Leman Russ called "The Wolfe Time". According to fluff, all or most of the loyal primarchs shall return for the final battle. as far as i can tell, the orks will try to fight everything eveywhere, win for a while, but over all be thrown back into obscurity. The Necrons will wake up, and start harvesting the other races, but between the Eldar, The super powered Tau war machine, and the undying legions of chaos, the necrons will also be killed off for the most part. The Tyranids will show up, and again try to fight everyone everywhere, start to win, but eventually be exterminated by Eldar, Tau, and chaos. you have to remember, The Chaos legions will always retunr, daemons never truely die, and there will always be Chaos Space Marines around to ruin your day. After the fall of the tyranids, The Eldar will be the next to go, which will give rise to the birth of the Eldar God Ynead (i forget the spelling), who will be the only thing stopping chaos from whipping the floor with everyone instantly. I do beleive that this is where malal will rear his ugly head, the mostly fogotten fifth Chaos God of anarchy. He is as strong as khonre, nurgle, tzeentch, ans slaneesh put togeather, which should be more than a match for Ynead. But while gods fight their battle, the remianign players in the galactic game, The Tau and Chaos Marines, will war it out. The whole time, humanity will be marshelling its last stand against the terror. The Tau will put up a good fight, but one ynead dies, the full Ruinous powers will devour the Tau race like a whale eating Krill. after that, we are left with the mortal enemies, imperium and Chaos. As much as id love to say Chaos will win, i knwo that something stupid and cheesy would happen, and the emporor will come back to life...After a fight between Daemon Primarchs and Loyalist Primearchs, agaisnt the untold trillions of chaos marines, warriors, and daemons agains the full strenght of the space marines, of course. Th eImperium will win, but only just, and the Warhammer $0k story arc will end with the Second Great Crusade, lead by the emporor and Rogal Dorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Theres always the other theory, that the Emporor faked his own death, to end the civil war and buy hi time to gather enough power to smight his foes once and for all
My only particular issue with this is Tau being a superpower and fighting back the 'nids.
Even post 4th sphere expansion their still going to be small empire and if the full weight of a 'nid hive fleet (not just a small splinter like they faced previously.) they'd get smushed.
Ovion wrote:My only particular issue with this is Tau being a superpower and fighting back the 'nids.
Even post 4th sphere expansion their still going to be small empire and if the full weight of a 'nid hive fleet (not just a small splinter like they faced previously.) they'd get smushed.
While I can agree with this for the most part, there's a prediction by Eldrad that makes me think Tau will be more influencial than alot of people are willing to give them. Everytime he looks into the Tau's future he felt a degree of protectiveness towards them, because he sees in them the potential to overcome what the Eldar could not; eventually conquering the darkness within their souls.
They won't get 'smushed'. They'll end up like Craftworld Iyanden, broken and in dire straits. And even if they complete their Fourth Sphere Expansion, they'll be at the very limit of their warp technology.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Ovion wrote:My only particular issue with this is Tau being a superpower and fighting back the 'nids.
Even post 4th sphere expansion their still going to be small empire and if the full weight of a 'nid hive fleet (not just a small splinter like they faced previously.) they'd get smushed.
While I can agree with this for the most part, there's a prediction by Eldrad that makes me think Tau will be more influencial than alot of people are willing to give them. Everytime he looks into the Tau's future he felt a degree of protectiveness towards them, because he sees in them the potential to overcome what the Eldar could not; eventually conquering the darkness within their souls.
Yeah...but predictions don't always come true. The Eldar's prediction have one weakness: Humans. Eldar consider Humans 'thorns' in space-time, ruining the perfect futures of the Farseers, since Mankind's sheer tenacity and stubborn tendency are sometimes enough to break fate. And even Eldrad admitted that Farseers can't see everything (he certainly didn't foresee a small fragment of Slaanesh waiting for him in a Blackstone Fortress).
Tadashi wrote:Yeah...but predictions don't always come true. The Eldar's prediction have one weakness: Humans. Eldar consider Humans 'thorns' in space-time, ruining the perfect futures of the Farseers, since Mankind's sheer tenacity and stubborn tendency are sometimes enough to break fate. And even Eldrad admitted that Farseers can't see everything (he certainly didn't foresee a small fragment of Slaanesh waiting for him in a Blackstone Fortress).
So predictions the Emperor are going to rise again should be discarded, right, cause predictions don't always come true
I don't have proper knowledge on Farseer future sight to comment whether or not they are influenced by humanity as claimed, but didn't the Eldar see the whole, Horus is not a good guy thing coming a mile away?
Tadashi wrote:They won't get 'smushed'. They'll end up like Craftworld Iyanden, broken and in dire straits. And even if they complete their Fourth Sphere Expansion, they'll be at the very limit of their warp technology.
If they're still limited by their warp technology.
Yeah...but predictions don't always come true. The Eldar's prediction have one weakness: Humans. Eldar consider Humans 'thorns' in space-time, ruining the perfect futures of the Farseers, since Mankind's sheer tenacity and stubborn tendency are sometimes enough to break fate. And even Eldrad admitted that Farseers can't see everything (he certainly didn't foresee a small fragment of Slaanesh waiting for him in a Blackstone Fortress).
What? You do know that Eldrad tried to inform the Emperor that Horus was going to turn on him, but had the misfortune of telling Fulgrim instead? It's not that their fortune's are untrue, just ambiguous, until the event comes. And no, he knew he was going to die assaulting the Blackstone Fortress, just not from Slaanesh.
I don't think Eldrad's dead. He's probably in chains somewhere in the warp, or 'enjoying' himself in Slaanesh's palace...and I didn't say all predictions don't come true. Most prophecies do come true, except that we don't know which ones do. We can always believe in fate, but there's always room for random chance (or a Human being...I get the feeling Chaos corrupted the Primarchs because they needed a Human's ability to disrupt the Emperor's vision of the future) to step in and ruin everything.
Don't forget, if the emperor truely dies and leaves his mortal sheel behind (instead of this corpse like living on the souls of pskers), he could well become the single most powerful god in the universe, because he is worshipped by countless billions, and he has consumed countless psyker souls in the meantime.
He was already immensely powerful when he was mortal. And even chained to the golden throne, his psychic power drives the astronomicon. Freed from the shackles of the golden throne and his mortal form, to become truely immortal, he could be unstoppable.
It would be interesting to see what kind of avatars or greater daemon equivalents (archangels) would he give form to if he was truely a god.
I mean, space marines are already so powerful, and they are only mortal. Immortal beings created by the god emperor would probably be even more unbelievably powerful.
He is half dead, or 90% dead already, and yet the imperium has endured for 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy. Never under estimate this guy.
The chaos gods didn't bother to unite to fight the orks, necrons, or even the eldar (Slanaash alone was sufficient for that race). But in the face of the god emperor, they were forced to unite.
Tadashi wrote:Yeah...but predictions don't always come true. The Eldar's prediction have one weakness: Humans. Eldar consider Humans 'thorns' in space-time, ruining the perfect futures of the Farseers, since Mankind's sheer tenacity and stubborn tendency are sometimes enough to break fate. And even Eldrad admitted that Farseers can't see everything (he certainly didn't foresee a small fragment of Slaanesh waiting for him in a Blackstone Fortress).
So predictions the Emperor are going to rise again should be discarded, right, cause predictions don't always come true
I don't have proper knowledge on Farseer future sight to comment whether or not they are influenced by humanity as claimed, but didn't the Eldar see the whole, Horus is not a good guy thing coming a mile away?
No, the Emperor prediction should be discarded because it's a lie by Tzeentch.
Personally, I think that the Eldar are full of gak. They predict that Horus is evil, so what do they do? Arrange a meeting with another primarch, who they conveniently failed to predict being corrupted by the thing that eats their souls. They predict that the Alpha Legion will have a large part, so they get them to follow Horus, because clearly killing all of humanity will fix everything, while sacrificing a single Craftworld to the inevitable revenge attack by killing Horus while he's weakened after the Anatheme incident wouldn't be an option at all. What use is seeing the 'future' if they read it wrongly every time and the gods are able to interfere with the visions apparently at will?
True, fluff dictates that 'gods' form because people believe in them...though the Emperor was originally not a god, Mankind's collective belief in Him has turned His soul into a god, so if His body dies, then the Star Child cycle will be completed, turning Him into a god finally.
Tadashi wrote:True, fluff dictates that 'gods' form because people believe in them...though the Emperor was originally not a god, Mankind's collective belief in Him has turned His soul into a god, so if His body dies, then the Star Child cycle will be completed, turning Him into a god finally.
Except the people who believe in the Star Child were purged in the 3rd ed rulebook.
Which was implied to be a cover-up by the Ordo Malleus, who were also implied to know of the Star Child. And the Emperor did mention His cast-out spirit of goodness and compassion to Inquisitor Draco. Even if the Star Child cycle is a lie, the Emperor still has that other spirit waiting to be reunited with Him one day.
And Gork will still Roflstomp him if he tries to push it
It's been said that no other god can even hurt them, and that the Emperor near crapped himself (paraphrase... opened his eyes in fear...) when they remanifested in the Universe.
Orks outnumber humans, after all, and they ALL believe in Gork and Mork, and they're ALL psykers (though weak ones, except for the Wierdboyz) - other orks are gestalt telekenetics and batteries. They generate psyker energy by getting excited, fighting and chanting 'ere we go' over and over again. (PG 36 Ork codex for the current bit on wierdboys btw)
The more fighting and exceitement, the more power. A whole race or psykers that spends all its time fighting, arguing, chanting and getting pumped up would provide a deal more power than a downtrodden raceof mostly non-psykers whose few psykers are mostly killed as batteries (and thus no longer available as a power source).
Add to that that many IOM citizens probably only 'believe' in the Emperor by rote, as the state religion...
Then add that the Starchild hokum hasn't seen a single mention in upwards of a decade of official fluff...
Well, I wouldn't just use this thing about the starchild only. I think the biggest most obvious lead we have about what will happen if the emperor dies finally would be to look at how the god Slanaash was created. That god was created from the rich fodder of the deviant and corrupted eldar of old. And when he awoke into conciousness, he singlehandedly destroyed much of Eldar civilization. The emperor has been feed the souls of thousands upon thousand of psykers for ten thousand years. He is worshipped by billions upon billions of people. There are cardinal worlds where the entire world is essentially one big church.
I think he stands for and defines the concept of Order, bravery and self sacrifice and all the good traits of the human being. As such, since the imperium is far more ordered than it is chaotic (There is essntially a complete structure of rule, and law and order), and there is such a strong belief in the god emperor. Hence, when he does leave behind his mortal shell, he will arise to become a new god, just like how Slanaash was created by the Eldar of old, the god emperor will be created by the imperium. And when he rises to his full power, no longer bound by the golden throne and his physical shell, his power will be truely immense.
Its about order vs chaos. For every one crazy chaos berserker out there, there are thousands more "normal" humans who believe in order. And the number of "normal" humans should greatly outnumbers the number of crazies out there.The emperor stands for order.
I read one 40k book which kind of alluded to this. Forgot the name. This Tzeetch greater daemon said that the chaos gods awaited the day the Emperor would truely die, rise up to take his place amongst the pantheon of gods and face them properly in their eternal war. In the end, the strength of a god is relative to the number of worshippers he has. And the emperor will have by far the largest number of believers compared to the 4 chaos gods.
Even if the Star Child isn't real, yes, the Emperor would most likely be reborn thanks to the fundamental warp concept of belief becoming reality. The Emperor would become the embodiment of everything good and noble in Mankind, just as Slaanesh is the embodiment of the darkness in Eldar souls. As for Gork and Mork, while they can never be truly defeated (being more powerful than all other warp entities combined), they can still be defeated and forced to retreat to another part of the warp while they get new strength.
Um.. they are, by your own admission, more powerful than all of the other warp entities combined.
Who exactly is going to be the one defeating them at all, let alone driving them off?
Holding them off until they get bored and wander off, maybe, or tricking them into a different fight (tzeentch's likely approach).
In general they are more interested in their own followers than the other Warp entities, though. They like watching Waaaghs as a form of entertainment, kind of like a celestial action movie. They'd only come crumping after the credits roll on the episode, unless someone was dumb enough to attack them
Just like Orks, the other gods defeat them by outwitting them, since like Orks they prefer a frontal approach. But even if they're defeated, they're still powerful enough to avoid being absorbed into another god (like the Eldar gods).
I can't see why the Chaos gods would want to do anything about Gork and Mork, personally. I doubt that they're more powerful than Khorne, but I also don't see why Khorne would try to kill an excellent source of dismemberment in the galaxy. Tzeentch would just like watching the Orks feth around with the Imperium's plans by accident, and any death they cause generates fear for Pappy Nurgle. I guess Slaanesh might get a bit annoyed that the Orks aren't into S&M, but the burna boyz do take a lot of pleasure in burning stuff.
Durza wrote:I can't see why the Chaos gods would want to do anything about Gork and Mork, personally. I doubt that they're more powerful than Khorne, but I also don't see why Khorne would try to kill an excellent source of dismemberment in the galaxy. Tzeentch would just like watching the Orks feth around with the Imperium's plans by accident, and any death they cause generates fear for Pappy Nurgle. I guess Slaanesh might get a bit annoyed that the Orks aren't into S&M, but the burna boyz do take a lot of pleasure in burning stuff.
Codex: Orks 4th Edition p.15 states they are more powerful than the gods of other races. Even if the other gods (including the Emperor) don't want anything to do with them, they would probably want to pick a fight with everybody in the warp worth noticing. They're too strong to be truly vanquished, and while they may be outsmarted and defeated, they will NEVER be destroyed, any more than the Orks can be wiped out.
Mork is to Kunnin to be outsmarted like that, and Gork would krump all over anybody who gots in his way. Best you can hope for is that Gork and Mork keep each other busy, if they are fighting together, the Orks are fightin together. The Orks are fightin together, and nobody is standing in the Orks way (well, not for long anyway).
Tzeentch is more cunning than anyone else (well, maybe not Cegorach), and Khorne has more battle experience. The Emperor's no pushover either, and what's cunning for Orks is still obvious for other races. Although, your probably right, they fight each other most of the time.
In terms of what WILL happen, nothing, because time is frozen by GW. But in terms of what WOULD happen, id say that the near-last entry in the Time of Ending timeline in the rulebook is rather ominous....
"The tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus find flaws in the Golden Throne beyond their ability to repair".
Crystal Geyser wrote:In terms of what WILL happen, nothing, because time is frozen by GW. But in terms of what WOULD happen, id say that the near-last entry in the Time of Ending timeline in the rulebook is rather ominous....
"The tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus find flaws in the Golden Throne beyond their ability to repair".
Yeah, GW might actually use it to their advantage. 1) The Emperor dies, and the Imperium falls apart, beginning the Second Age of Strife. 2) The Space Marine Chapters create realms out of the fallen Imperium, and form alliances with the Tau, Necrons, and Eldar to resist the Tyranids, Chaos, and the Orks. 3) The Hive Fleets are repelled, but the Eldar and most of Mankind perish in the process. 4) Ynnead awakens, and Chaos is driven back. 5) The Emperor is reborn on Terra, the loyalist Primarchs return, and the Second Great Crusade to reunite the Astartes Splinter Realms and what's left of Mankind and reconquer the galaxy begins.
Tadashi wrote:Yeah, GW might actually use it to their advantage. 1) The Emperor dies, and the Imperium falls apart, beginning the Second Age of Strife. 2) The Space Marine Chapters create realms out of the fallen Imperium, and form alliances with the Tau, Necrons, and Eldar to resist the Tyranids, Chaos, and the Orks. 3) The Hive Fleets are repelled, but the Eldar and most of Mankind perish in the process. 4) Ynnead awakens, and Chaos is driven back. 5) The Emperor is reborn on Terra, the loyalist Primarchs return, and the Second Great Crusade to reunite the Astartes Splinter Realms and what's left of Mankind and reconquer the galaxy begins.
All but the death of the nids sounds good. Remember you can't just delete a major faction. Something more complicated would have to happen.
1) The Emperor dies, and the Imperium falls apart, beginning the Second Age of Strife. 2) The Space Marine Chapters create realms out of the fallen Imperium, and form alliances with the Tau, Necrons, and Eldar to resist the Tyranids, Chaos, and the Orks. 3) The Hive Fleets are repelled, but the Eldar and Tau all but perish, and most of Mankind perish in the process, and a few Splinter Fleet remains. 4) Ynnead awakens, and Chaos is driven back as he and Slaanesh destroy each other. 5) While the remaining Necrons and Chaos followers fight each other to exhaustion (not to mention the Orks), the Emperor is reborn on Terra, the loyalist Primarchs return, and the Second Great Crusade to reunite the Astartes Splinter Realms and what's left of Mankind and reconquer the galaxy begins.
Who knows, maybe the Emperor would be willing to make an arrangement with the surviving Eldar (who don't have to worry about Slaanesh anymore) and Tau. After all, the Greater Good sounds a lot like the Imperial Truth, and the Eldar don't have to worry about the long-term survival of their race anymore (at least, not as much).
If the Emperor was to wake up and begin another great crusade, the Tyranids would see this and double their efforts into taking the galaxy, perhaps sending in their entire force. Also, you can't just delete entire armies. Eldar and Tau cannot get completely wiped out because they still make money for GW. Not as much as SMs, mind you, but enough to make GW not do that. Also, there would be thousands of Eldar and Tau players who would be up in arms over the absolute destruction of their army, which would end support for it.
Either the Emperor will wake the heck up and get the Imperium's act together (slaughtering most of the Inquisition and High Lords because of their actions, note that is the Emperor wakes/is reborn and this does not happen I will be pissed), or the second age of strife will occur.
Tadashi wrote:1) The Emperor dies, and the Imperium falls apart, beginning the Second Age of Strife. 2) The Space Marine Chapters create realms out of the fallen Imperium, and form alliances with the Tau, Necrons, and Eldar to resist the Tyranids, Chaos, and the Orks. 3) The Hive Fleets are repelled, but the Eldar and Tau all but perish, and most of Mankind perish in the process, and a few Splinter Fleet remains. 4) Ynnead awakens, and Chaos is driven back as he and Slaanesh destroy each other. 5) While the remaining Necrons and Chaos followers fight each other to exhaustion (not to mention the Orks), the Emperor is reborn on Terra, the loyalist Primarchs return, and the Second Great Crusade to reunite the Astartes Splinter Realms and what's left of Mankind and reconquer the galaxy begins.
Who knows, maybe the Emperor would be willing to make an arrangement with the surviving Eldar (who don't have to worry about Slaanesh anymore) and Tau. After all, the Greater Good sounds a lot like the Imperial Truth, and the Eldar don't have to worry about the long-term survival of their race anymore (at least, not as much).
On what level of ozone are you breathing to think that the aliens you've been persucuting since you met them have an inkling or desire to help the Imperium, especially after watching it shatter and wallow in its death throes? And somehow only humanity regains its strength enough to launch another Seocnd Great Crusade?!
They did it the first time...... while all the delegate territories of human space were being ransacked by orks the emperor used the space marine legions to launch the original crusade. Not to mention the return of the loyalist primarchs. Can you imagine how hard the different chapters will fight with their true leader back? AND their primarch.
Not to mention eldar make alliances with humans all the time when it suits their needs. Tyranid chaos and orks are definitely a good reason.
So o think he is breathing the same level of ozone as you bub.
The emperor reborn as a god would be pretty epic. He will be recreate the best of his most faithful into new forms to bring the battle to the chaos gods.
So, think of all the loyalist primarchs which are already dead. He raises them into archangels, so that they would all be like the equivalent of the daemon prince primarchs.
So, Lemun Russ, the Lion, Robert G, would all be reborn and hence finally "come back". Many of the best of the space marines, imperium who have died would also be given new form as battle angels.
The emperor will then start a second crusade! Only this time, its not going to be just IG and the space marine legions. This time, it will be the entire imperium, all the loyalist space marines, plus the celestial host of battle angels of past dead heroes and the archangel primarchs themselves now given new form. Will be epic! I think I will start a new thread that focus on just this topic alone!
Tadashi wrote:1) The Emperor dies, and the Imperium falls apart, beginning the Second Age of Strife. 2) The Space Marine Chapters create realms out of the fallen Imperium, and form alliances with the Tau, Necrons, and Eldar to resist the Tyranids, Chaos, and the Orks. 3) The Hive Fleets are repelled, but the Eldar and Tau all but perish, and most of Mankind perish in the process, and a few Splinter Fleet remains. 4) Ynnead awakens, and Chaos is driven back as he and Slaanesh destroy each other. 5) While the remaining Necrons and Chaos followers fight each other to exhaustion (not to mention the Orks), the Emperor is reborn on Terra, the loyalist Primarchs return, and the Second Great Crusade to reunite the Astartes Splinter Realms and what's left of Mankind and reconquer the galaxy begins.
Who knows, maybe the Emperor would be willing to make an arrangement with the surviving Eldar (who don't have to worry about Slaanesh anymore) and Tau. After all, the Greater Good sounds a lot like the Imperial Truth, and the Eldar don't have to worry about the long-term survival of their race anymore (at least, not as much).
Except every Eldar needs to be dead in order for Ynnead to awaken, and even then his odds aren't much better than even against Slaanesh. Once the Eldar are dead, Ynnead's out of power supply, so even if he starts out more powerful, Slaanesh would still be getting power from the rest of the galaxy (making it stronger to start with IMO) and would win any kind of long term fight. Not to mention that going by the others, Warp gods take a while to awaken and Slaanesh could just attack before Ynnead became self-aware. And Khorne would just murder Ynnead if he tried any kind of other action against Chaos, so the 'driving back' won't happen. I think Ynnead is just an attempt by the Farseers to keep the Eldar fighting, like they don't tell anyone what happens to the sacrifices to Khaine.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:They did it the first time...... while all the delegate territories of human space were being ransacked by orks the emperor used the space marine legions to launch the original crusade. Not to mention the return of the loyalist primarchs. Can you imagine how hard the different chapters will fight with their true leader back? AND their primarch.
Not to mention eldar make alliances with humans all the time when it suits their needs. Tyranid chaos and orks are definitely a good reason.
But there was alot more going for the Emperor the first time:
- Eighteen Primarchs
- Hundreds of Thousands of Space Marines
- No Tyranids
- No Chaos (until, well, you know)
- No active Necrons and a really weak Void Dragon
- No Ecclesiarchy
However, this time around, there's alot more obstacles which would probably revert humanity back to Terra and its neighboring systems.
1) The nine Traitor Primarchs that don't like the Emperor and have the Four Chaos Gods and Chaos Daemons behind them.
2) The lack of Space Marines and severe attrition. It's doubtful that the majority of Space Marine Chapters on the fringes of the galaxy (and perhaps the furthest reaches of Ultima Segmentum) would not survive the attrition brought on by the dimming of the Astronomicon, not to mention the crippling of Imperial Guard Regiments losing their logistics completely. So it's highly unlikely that the Emperor would find as many Space Marines still active as some hope, by the time the Second Crusade gets that far.
3) As far as aliens helping the Imperium, Eldar might help them a little. The Tau would probably help them, depending on which Tau gets to them first. It seems that the Tau military are branching off into two distinct approaches; the Commander Farsight approach (which Commander Brightsword and IceHeart both respect) and Tau (and Commander ShadowSun). If Farsight's ilk get to the Space Marines first, they probably wouldn't help and just leave the Space Marine to their fate.
4) There's the Void Dragon. The healthy Void Dragon. The particularly irritated, but god-strong Void Dragon that discovers he now has alot of willing minions toiling about his planet, Mars.
5) And if the Emperor becomes a god, the Hive Mind would come at him like a homing beacon, from above or below to challenge him.
6) The Ecclesiarchy. The very thing the Emperor didn't want. I think they'll probably end up like Lorgar and have to be put to the sword.
I'm not saying the Imperium would be obliterated, but it wouldn't be in a position to launch anything-Crusade for a long, long time.
The complete collapse of the Imperium (such as Second Age of Strife) is probably too drastic and could never be resolved imo. Really they should go for a second age of apostasy, where there was anarchy and things were pretty terrible for humanity, but they still were loosely held together. This could be accomplished with the Emperor seemingly "dying" and then a civil war erupts throughout various Imperial factions, not Horus Heresy-level, just similar to the Age of Apostasy. The Space Marines, Inquisition, and (most of) the Mechanicus against the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Terra would probably be the right combination.
I prefer the Emperor coming back as god personally. The bad guys all have their own gods mostly. Heck, chaos has 4 gods! Why can't the imperium have one? We always talk about balance right? good vs evil, etc. The chaos gods are created mostly from evil and negative emotions. Then it stands to reason that the Emperor, which stands for all the good traits including nobility, self sacrifice and order should be the counterpart god to the 4 chaos gods, because just as there are evil emotions and deeds being done, there are also countless good emotions and deeds being done as well.
But there was alot more going for the Emperor the first time:
- Eighteen Primarchs
- Hundreds of Thousands of Space Marines
- No Tyranids
- No Chaos (until, well, you know)
- No active Necrons and a really weak Void Dragon
- No Ecclesiarchy
However, this time around, there's alot more obstacles which would probably revert humanity back to Terra and its neighboring systems.
KplKeegan wrote:1) The nine Traitor Primarchs that don't like the Emperor and have the Four Chaos Gods and Chaos Daemons behind them.
9 ? if your point starts with 9 traitors,,,, the ones who didn't confront him the first time, who are still dead yet and so on....
4 chaos entities dislike him. Fine let them. Next ed they try to take over and have to oppose a Galaxy, so 1 Emperor and his "minions" isn't a fight between them and unified chaos.
KplKeegan wrote:2) The lack of Space Marines and severe attrition. It's doubtful that the majority of Space Marine Chapters on the fringes of the galaxy (and perhaps the furthest reaches of Ultima Segmentum) would not survive the attrition brought on by the dimming of the Astronomicon, not to mention the crippling of Imperial Guard Regiments losing their logistics completely. So it's highly unlikely that the Emperor would find as many Space Marines still active as some hope, by the time the Second Crusade gets that far.
The first time, GW started with tens of thousands of SM. So its not like a few hundredthousand weren't thinkable as the crusade force once.
Now, we still have 1.000 x 1.000 SM available and per GW's idea of scale thats just 50% of 20 Legions at maximum strength.
They are independent and surely not suffer this attrition you imagine there since it is never their modus operandi and they know their job.
The IG has billions of regiments now, billions! ( thanks to mr cruddace ). Seem the munitorum is able to keep them supplied.
Maybe they lose some, but certainly anyone who gets the logistics of billions of regiments right, isn't just giving up because navigating becomes a challenge. Plus the Astronomican is focused by him, not run, and he could leave Terra and lead the crusade till Ullanor .
The Emperor created the astartes and could do it again. He could leave Terra without ruining the fleets out there.
So why is it unlikely he got enough SM,IG,mech etc and a functioning transport system? The crusade wasn't only collecting troops alongside it also created new bases and furthered the reach of the expeditions. Took 200 years, 200 years of rebuilding lead by the emperor and this time they got maps and must not explore a Galaxy as they had the first time.
KplKeegan wrote:3) As far as aliens helping the Imperium, Eldar might help them a little. The Tau would probably help them, depending on which Tau gets to them first. It seems that the Tau military are branching off into two distinct approaches; the Commander Farsight approach (which Commander Brightsword and IceHeart both respect) and Tau (and Commander ShadowSun). If Farsight's ilk get to the Space Marines first, they probably wouldn't help and just leave the Space Marine to their fate.
I'd rather bet on Farsight than these etherals. Etherals only care for the greater good. Farsight is a soldier and would honor a pact made.
Plus meeting the Emperor himself would go well with a famous leader ( farsight ) and not so well with etherals who consider him dead and hope he stays dead. Can't have competition for the hearts and minds, especially a powerful one like Big E.
KplKeegan wrote:4) There's the Void Dragon. The healthy Void Dragon. The particularly irritated, but god-strong Void Dragon that discovers he now has alot of willing minions toiling about his planet, Mars.
Poor Dragon got deleted by vile evil GW scribes...
Basically his story is at an end. The ties are cut and the necron dex pretty much ignores any hint on C'tan / mechanicum.
OtoH these newcrons like to ally with humans, so yes the new alliance is unified crons and Big E. The E-crons....
Seriously, necrons seem to allow humans to leave, take them as vassals and generally lost this Harvest all life purpose they had.
Plus already got a BA / cron team going. Both species want the nids annihilated, don't like chaos and orks.
Lots of common ground to build upon All hail the new overlords. Looking forward to an age of order, unity, obedience and prosperity as the newcron/human alliance is formed.
Did i miss the Dragon? Not really, he either is a present to the newcrons or stays as honored guest at Mars.
KplKeegan wrote:5) And if the Emperor becomes a god, the Hive Mind would come at him like a homing beacon, from above or below to challenge him.
Fine let it run into that trap. With our new newcron friends it shouldn't challenge the IoM to splinter that hive mind like the C'tan and eldar gods were splintered. Seems the thing to do nowadays...
KplKeegan wrote:6) The Ecclesiarchy. The very thing the Emperor didn't want. I think they'll probably end up like Lorgar and have to be put to the sword.
Big E was around when the first religious wars erupted on old earth. So why should he not adapt and move on?
He probably used the thuinder warriors until he replaced them with the astartes. The Ecclesiarchy would face the same fate.
Use their fervor until they bleed out. The emperor could never alter the view of him in everyones mind to a secular one.
Why fight the lost cause? Just keep the ones in charge in the know. The masses may still happily give their life in his name.
KplKeegan wrote:I'm not saying the Imperium would be obliterated, but it wouldn't be in a position to launch anything-Crusade for a long, long time.
The timeout of the Emperor is the deciding factor, yes. But still this Imperium got enough mass to survive.
The long , long time I doubt. The Emperor, beloved by all, moved on from a bloody civil war, right to the stars.
10 millenia passed since he got stuck on that toilet.
A few years to organize aren't a long time compared to that scale.
1hadhq wrote:Big E was around when the first religious wars erupted on old earth. So why should he not adapt and move on? He probably used the thuinder warriors until he replaced them with the astartes. The Ecclesiarchy would face the same fate. Use their fervor until they bleed out. The emperor could never alter the view of him in everyones mind to a secular one. Why fight the lost cause? Just keep the ones in charge in the know. The masses may still happily give their life in his name.
But the Emperor did not want to be worshipped. At all. I believe this is a solid character trait that would stick to Him if he ever rose again. He abhored faith, especially faith in him, which eventually lead Lorgar to worship the Chaos Gods.
So the Ecclesiarchy in its entirety would apall Him into either disbanding them, or more than likely putting them to the sword to maintain his ideology.
Poor Dragon got deleted by vile evil GW scribes...
Never. He still has a serious bone to pick with the Emperor and should not be denied his chance to smack Him back onto the Golden Toilet.
But still this Imperium got enough mass to survive.
But for how long? The Emperor can only go in one direction and I'd doubt he'd let the Primarchs go running about again. So where would you go first?
Farsight is a soldier and would honor a pact made.
Not really. Farsight is naturally aggressive, and without the Ethereals to guide him, he suffered a vision of the Mont'au (The Horror), but after he recovered, the Renegade became even more aggressive.
Farsight has experienced the horror of what the Imperium does to Xenos, and without an Ethereal to curb his impulses, would reciprocate without thinking.
But the Emperor did not want to be worshipped. At all. I believe this is a solid character trait that would stick to Him if he ever rose again. He abhored faith, especially faith in him, which eventually lead Lorgar to worship the Chaos Gods.
So the Ecclesiarchy in its entirety would apall Him into either disbanding them, or more than likely putting them to the sword to maintain his ideology.
The Emperor isn't wasting ressoures, so he doesn't put them to his sword.
There is some use for them, frontline duties with "minimal" risk...
KplKeegan wrote:Never. He still has a serious bone to pick with the Emperor and should not be denied his chance to smack Him back onto the Golden Toilet.
Has he? some time passed. Maybe he grow fond of his new home? Of the nice and obedient guys of the mechanicum?
KplKeegan wrote:But for how long? The Emperor can only go in one direction and I'd doubt he'd let the Primarchs go running about again. So where would you go first?
Back in time. 2000AD, planet earth, UK. You know , that place.
AS a God-Emporer, close the webgate underneath, first. Close the warp rifts ,second.
KplKeegan wrote: Farsight is naturally aggressive, and without the Ethereals to guide him, he suffered a vision of the Mont'au (The Horror), but after he recovered, the Renegade became even more aggressive.
Farsight has experienced the horror of what the inhabitants of this Galaxy do to each other, and without an Ethereal to curb his impulses, would reciprocate without thinking.
You see him as a mentally disturbed one?
Oh great, he got the full Col kurtz treatment
Lets see a mighty psyker who can look like he want and a not so sane Tau commander....go for the senile necron overlord approach , I say.
One meeting and Farsight opts for the most beneficial way, as cut off of resupply as he is.
I never said that the Tau, Tyranids, and Eldar were wiped out. Just that the Eldar and the Tau would be left on the brink of extinction. The main Hive Fleets would be destroyed, but a lot of Splinter Fleets would be left out there. This is better for GW actually, since Tyranid players can now have their own 'custom' Hive Fleets. And there are only 7 traitor Primarchs left. Horus was completely obliterated by the Emperor, and Curze allowed himself to be killed by a Callidus. And the Space Marines are more than capable of surviving on their own. The Chapters descended from each other would flock together, creating heavily-fortified, well-governed realms in the remains of the former Imperium. And the Eldar, Tau, Necrons, DO make alliances against common enemies. If the Imperium collapses, you think they're just going to stand aside and let the bad guys take over? As far as the Eldar are concerned, its better to have the Humans as a neighbor, no matter how unfriendly, than Orks or Chaos worshippers. Not to mention fighting the Tyranids on their own would greatly drain the Forces of Chaos, who still have to fight the Necrons once its over. And the Reborn Emperor might just make a lasting alliance with the Necrons. They both embody Order over Chaos, and the Emperor could offer them back whatever it was they lost to the C'tan, with his new mastery over the warp.
. Heh, heh. I agree however that the fluff is very vague but it does give an impression that the Tau did naughty things 
.
