I was looking through the new FAQ updates on the GW site, and when I read something I was surprised to see this change;
Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”
For dawn of war where we are limited to two units of troops and a single HQ, does this mean that the IG are now able to field a platoon as one of their units, meaning if we put a massive platoon together consisting of a PCS, 5 PIS, 6 HWT, and anything else, is that all one unit for dawn of war scenarios?
nosferatu1001 wrote:Chimeras are part of the Platoon, so yes they are allowed
I wasn't even going to go with that one, since it would have been my impression that it works as the transports do for DOW, but I really can see this being how it's supposed to be played too.
Actually, I think that chimeras would still count as a separate unit. The platoon would count as a single unit for deployment, like any unit other armies can deploy. However, chimeras are still dedicated transports selected for that unit and would still have to follow the dedicated transport rules.
The chimeras are not part of the "platoon composition" at the top of page 96. they are dedicated transports selected for the platoon.
So are you saying taht any empty chimeras in Rahems platoon do not have to outflank?
Are you saying that any empty chimeras in reserves do not arrive with the rest of the platoon on a single die rill for reserves?
I'll disagree. the Chimeras are dedicated transports belonging to the platoon and empty or not, they are part of the platoon. They are considered to be the same Force Org type as the unit they are bought for (ie Troops in this case) and are part of the same Force Org slot (ie the IG Platoon).
I'm just glad it's only Infantry platoons that got this change. My buddy, generally fields a full-out Command Platoon, and 2 Infantry Platoons, which would be quite a bit in DoW...
Trickstick wrote:I'm going to have fun next time DoW comes up. Usually foot Guard are hurt by that deployment. Revenge shall be fun.
Not as helpful as you'd think. You're probably going to deploy pretty far back anyway. Only real downside is not being able to fire heavy weapons turn 1.
Why would I deploy far back? I am thinking of deploying on the half way line and running in to pound some face. The long range support can deploy in ruins and stuff to offer cover, while the heavy support rolls on turn one.
Lobukia wrote:Good! More IG for my DP Marines and Dreads to shoot at!
A word of warning. Most decent guard armies run at least one platoon, since you can put out chimera's (The real reason to take the platoon) cheaper than a veteran squad once you get passed the initial high cost. Having the extra chimeras (not to mention all those HWT) out there will not make the aftermath pleasant. You might kill 4 chimeras, the guard player gets a chuckle because you got less than half then comes a whole lot of laser pointers.. err lasguns.
Codex IG on dedicated transports pg 99: These vehicles do not use any force organization chart selections but otherwise function as separate units. No wall of chimeras in DoW then.
Part of the platoon is what is written in the codex to be part of the platoon. Adding models arbitrarily doesn't cut it. Chimeras are special only in the way codex dedicated transports in codex IG describes in pg99: These vehicles do not use any force organization chart selections but otherwise function as separate units.
So the only special thing about them is that they don't use FOC slots. Nothing else.
The best part of that is that youa re totally contradicting the FAQ you claim to have read.
FAQ wrote:Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
So, we can work out two things from this:
1) Dedicated Transports are part of the platoon
2) Non-dedicated transports are not
So, your answer was presumably "no", and you are still wrong
The best part of that is that youa re totally contradicting the FAQ you claim to have read.
FAQ wrote:Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
So, we can work out two things from this:
1) Dedicated Transports are part of the platoon
2) Non-dedicated transports are not
So, your answer was presumably "no", and you are still wrong
Keep going, your arguments just get better
You can only workout #2. You still lack any rules or FAQ that allow you to include Designated Transports as part of the platoon.
They only give one "instead" condition; there are no other alternatives. You are part of the platoon, or you are in a non-dedicated transport and are not part of the platoon
I see no "instead" anywhere in the FAQ quote and you putting it in quotation marks shows that you are looking for implication where it does not exist.
The FAQ addresses and only addresses the Infantry Platoon as it pertains to deployment. You have no direction to also include Dedicated Transports in that instruction. Lack of specific does not override the the general rule for Dedicated Transports and deployment in mission specific deployment restrictions and/or allowances.
You are are trying to reverse engineer the last sentence to include Dedicated Transports as being part of the Infantry Platoon. That is not how the rules are played.
Just for clarification, this does not make the platoon count as 1 killpoint. And this is only for DoW right?
Platoons already count as 1 unit for deploying acording to IG codex, iirc.
As Chimera rule is writen, 'But otherwise functions as a seperate unit' does that technicaly mean that you can take one without an infantry squad? Its optional to make it a dedicated transport?
Heres an example, an army list:
------------------------------
HQ-
LC- everythin
Ok, so here^^ we have our army list, and there are more chimeras than troop chices. Is this possable? The way the chimera rules are worded it makes me think that you can do what i just listed (minus the stuffed animals and reeses cups). Meerly stating that the dedicated transport is an OPTION, but not REQUIRED to take the chimera.
ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Just for clarification, this does not make the platoon count as 1 killpoint. And this is only for DoW right?
Platoons already count as 1 unit for deploying acording to IG codex, iirc.
As Chimera rule is writen, 'But otherwise functions as a seperate unit' does that technicaly mean that you can take one without an infantry squad? Its optional to make it a dedicated transport?
Heres an example, an army list: ------------------------------ HQ- LC- everythin
Ok, so here^^ we have our army list, and there are more chimeras than troop chices. Is this possable? The way the chimera rules are worded it makes me think that you can do what i just listed (minus the stuffed animals and reeses cups). Meerly stating that the dedicated transport is an OPTION, but not REQUIRED to take the chimera.
The platoon only counts as 1 unit for DoW (or similar mission) deployment purposes or reserve rolls, it's still plenty of kill points. Previously, a lot of RAW folks read "counts as one troops choice" as not being applicable in DoW, since you deploy units, not choices. No, you cannot take a Chimera with no squad. You'll notice it has no independent entry on the FOC, and therefore cannot be taken on its own. It MUST be a dedicated transport attached to another unit.
Going back to the main argument, if the Chimera is not a part of the platoon, it does not roll with the rest of the platoon for reserves. And Al'rahem's Chimeras don't outflank. And both of these are incorrect statements.
copper.talos wrote:Where does it say that in the composition of the platoon is 0-X chimeras? I see infantry squads, heavy weapons etc but no chimeras.
Under Infantry Squad. Dedicated Transports. Or do you really think GW should list all the stats for a ded transport in every unit entry that can take it. Just because they put the entry for the DT elsewhere does no mean it is not part of the force org slot with the unit for which it is purchased. The main rules point at this by telling us that a DT counts as the same type of Force Org as the unit it is purchased for.
Saying it's not part of the platoon is like saying that a the second half of a combat squadded Marine squad is not longer part of a Tac squad (or whatever the original squad was). Bottom line. the DT is bought from the Platoon pages, from the entries for the PCS or Inf Squad. And you really wnt to try and say it's not part of the Platoon? yeah, right.
Brother Ramses wrote:I see no "instead" anywhere in the FAQ quote and you putting it in quotation marks shows that you are looking for implication where it does not exist.
FAQ wrote:Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
"Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”"
Note roll once for the "whole" platoon, than it notes that non dedicated transports and units inside must be rolled seperately.
1) It states DT are part of the platoon (no excluded middle fallacy, before you attempt to claim it) because you make ONE roll for the platoon, APART from those in NON-dedicated transports.
So chimera are part of the platoon
You then look at the first part of the FAQ, and you find out that that means they count as one unit FOR DEPLOYMENT PURPOSES ONLY.
Copper I'd like to be on your side, to me though it looks wrong. However cheesy/broken, as a Guard player who likes a lil horde with his artillery, I wouldn't touch it.
It's the "roll once for each infantry platoon" part that is making this discussion. If the Chimera is not part of the platoon than it should be rolled for seperately. However it doesn't tell us that.
Chimeras are bought for the Infantry squad. Infantry squad is part of the platoon. Hence so are the chimeras. The
Faq would agree with this. Seeing as the WHOLE platoon is rolled for as one. Unless its a non dedicated transport. Use common sense people. And that seperate unit is so that the chimera doesnt have to remain within 2in of the parent unit. And so it gives an additional kp.
Before this FAQ I have never seen ANYONE EVER try to claim a dedicated chimera was not part of the platoon. Ever. It is only since this came up that peopel are now trying to somehow find a way that they arent a member of the platoon.
Which is crazy, when you think about it. Oh, and Copper - stop saying that DT are a separate unit. We know this, oddly enough. The point is the FAQ makes the platoon *count as* a single unit - ALL members of it. Obviously every member is normally a separate unit, but this FAQ changes the rules.
Yes but where does it say that DTs are part of the platoon? The platoon's entry doesn't say so and all the DTs are separate units from the units that make the platoon.
Also DTs don't take the same FOC slot with the unit that bought them. They just don't take any FOC slot at all. So you can't claim that because they are in the sme slot as the platoon they deploy as one...
PS people never had problems with chimeras in DoW before. That's why this issue came up now...
copper.talos wrote:Yes but where does it say that DTs are part of the platoon? The platoon's entry doesn't say so and all the DTs are separate units from the units that make the platoon.
Also DTs don't take the same FOC slot with the unit that bought them. They just don't take any FOC slot at all. So you can't claim that because they are in the sme slot as the platoon they deploy as one...
In the IG codex under Infantry squad and Platoon Command Squad where it lists transport optinos. Nuff said?
The FAQ says that. The fact you select the DT as a unit dedicated to the platoon says that. You are still entirely ignorign the FAQ and explanations on it - so you are now simply trolling.
DTs take the same FOC slot as the unit they were selected for - p87
If it wasnt a seperate unit from the one that bought it, it would have to stay within 2in of the parent unit. And since it is the same unit it cant tansport the unit. And youd have to blow up both it and kill the squad to get one kill point.
The dc is selected with, and bought for a squad. Its a unit upgrade for the Infantry Squad. It can only start with its parent unit deployed inside. FAQ states that dc are rolled for with the platoon. Giving credit to they are part of the platoon. There is no stated rule saying that dc are part of the platoon. So its not RAW. But using the above evidence, it is obvious RAI.
Seperate unit is mentioned so it can actually function as a transport.
Dosent take up a foc is so it doesnt take one of your foc alottments.
Saying that they are part of the platoon won't make them.
PG 96 of IG codex: Infantry Platoon. Composition: 1 platoon command squad, 2-5 infantry squads, 0-5 heavy weapon squads, 0-2 special weapon squads and 0-1 coscript squads.
Do you see any chimeras? Any refference to DTs? The faq is irrelevant to platoon composition. DTs are selected with a unit but they are seperate units from then on. Since they are separate units from what is included in the platoon they are separate from the platoon too. It needs an errata to fix that, not a faq.
And anyway with your way of thinking an SM player could deploy 2 SM squads inside 2 rhinos in DoW. Which ofcourse is illegal.
Page 87, multiple unit selections. Not using up a FOC slot doesnt mean it isnt a part of a slot. It even states so in the BRB. TROLL
The FAQ explains exactly why dedicated transports are part of the platoon. See that last bit which explains that only nondedicate transports are outside of the platoon? Got that yet? doesnt take much effort, and has been shown to you many times.
Wow, you really are a troll now. Platoon DOES NOT EQUAL ANYTHING IN ANY OTHER CODEX. It is unique. This has NOTHING to do with space marines, so your strawman is just your LATEST Fallacy.
Oh, and just to point out to Talos one last time - the FAQ is ONLY concerned with *deployments* that restrict what you can deploy by unit, and has no effect on anything other than the Platoon.
A rhino for a SM squad is STILL a separate unit, as it isnt a Platoon. Understand that yet?
DTs count as being from the same FO category (not slot) as the unit that bought them. They are definitely not in the same slot. So in DoW a chimera bought by an infantry squad count as a troop but still it's not the same troop/unit.
Keep setting new records on falsifying BRB rules nos. I am sure in the end you'll end up with a BRB of your own...
You have seen the word "instead", which delineates the DT as being part of the platoon - yes?
BTW - none of this is a discussion on what a unit is OUTSIDE of this FAQ, which is only concerned with Platoons
Your inabilty to tell the difference between the two must make Taloshammer 40k very, very different from the actual game.
Wow, not falsifying any BRB rules in this post? This must be a 1st time for you. How does it feel being clean?
Personal attacks are not allowed on this board. Thanks! ~Manchu
For DT to be part of the platoon there is a need for errata. Faqs can't change that.
And even that faq you keep mentioning on and on doesn't say that DTs are deployed in DoW along with the platoon. are part of the platoon, or anything similar. It simply says that the platoon is deployed as one unit.
And that "instead" concerns reserves, not DoW deployment. When coming from reserves OF COURSE the units come embarked on the DTs. It's part of the DT rule.
The platoon makes one roll for reserves and all DTs come with their units embarked in then, just the same as a rhino comes from reserves with an SM squad in them. They don't need to be part of the platoon for that. That is a basic DT rule.
Whilst I appreciate that it's much more fun and amusing to just insult other posters and make "subtle" digs at them as they have the temerity to disagree with your understanding of Gw's formidably watertight and crystal clear rules writing than to, you know, actually just discuss and debate the relevant issue and see if we can draw a consensus on the issue, it would be gratefully appreciated if you would actually do this.
A. 1 Dire Avenger squad can come from reserves on a wave serpent (DT) with 1 reserve roll
B.1 Dire Avenger squad can come from reserves on a falcon (non DT) with 1 reserve roll
An infantry platoon can have its units on DTs and non DTs. So is a mix of cases A & B. So they split them when they arrive from reserves. Where does this implicate that DTs become part of the platoon?
Pg67 "Sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen seperately as normal and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty space marine land raider).
Directing your attention to the "Sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit." part. I'm still very new to the game and want to see what the consensus is on this issue.
“Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed."
Chimeras are bought as part of an Infantry Platoon, same as Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads and Conscripts Squads.
Come to think of it, Chimeras are bought same as Heavy Weapons TEAMS and Special Weapons within individual Infantry Squads.
The fact that the Chimera is treated as a separate unit during the game is completely irrelevant, as such an argument would exclude HWS, SWS and Conscripts as well.
Is that the argument being presented?!?
The FAQ text does not exclude anything from its application.
In order to exclude anything from being affected by this FAQ it would have to specifically state that.
While I find this broken beyond belief and will have to house-rule it within my gaming-group (or wait for GW to do it for us), there really isn't any doubt as to what the FAQ actually says.
@nos Basic reserve rules. BRBpg 94 Preparing reserves 4th paragraph. Both the unit transported and the transport arrive with a single reserve roll. Since they are seperate units you can have the transport come empty.
@steelmage99 read before posting. This has been answered already. Hint: check if the platoon composition mentions chimeras at all.
You are going down the "It Is Treated As A Separate Unit"-path. Why are the DT bought as an upgrade for the Infantry Squads treated any differently than a HWS.
And what does the composition have to do with anything? And does that argument hold up when you apply it to other entries in the IG codex?
copper.talos wrote:@nos Basic reserve rules. BRBpg 94 Preparing reserves 4th paragraph. Both the unit transported and the transport arrive with a single reserve roll. Since they are seperate units you can have the transport come empty.
@steelmage99 read before posting. This has been answered already. Hint: check if the platoon composition mentions chimeras at all.
It includes infantry squads, which are apart of the platoon. Then we add in portugus' quote (thank you btw) where it specifically says "allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit." So I have an infantry squad which selects a chimera to be with it. It is no different than buying a commisar. Since it is selected with the infantry squad which is apart of the platoon how can it not be apart of the platoon?
They are selected with the unit and from then on are treated as separate units. They are not the same unit and they don't occupy the same FOC slot. These are basic traits of transports.
This DoW issue came up because of the faq. For the chimeras to be part of the platoon, they need to errata the platoon's composition, or the transport rules. But seriously now, do you think that deploying 10 chimeras in DoW is what was intended with that faq?
Well in DoW you deploy 2 troops units and 1 HQ. So with platoon you can deloy the whole platoon as one unit. That platoon can only consist of the units described in the IG codex entry. All dedicated transport deploy as separate units and therefore count towards the 2 unit limitation as usual.
copper.talos wrote:Well in DoW you deploy 2 troops units and 1 HQ. So with platoon you can deloy the whole platoon as one unit. That platoon can only consist of the units described in the IG codex entry.
The Chimeras are certainly described in the IG IP codex entry. Or they are referenced to, which is quite enough...otherwise GW would have to describe every weapon, option and rule in the codex entries.
All dedicated transport deploy as separate units
As does HWS, SWS and Conscripts....what makes Chimeras any different?
Because they are Dedicated Transports on top of what other characteristics they have?
and therefore count towards the 2 unit limitation as usual.
copper.talos wrote:They are selected with the unit and from then on are treated as separate units. They are not the same unit and they don't occupy the same FOC slot. These are basic traits of transports.
This DoW issue came up because of the faq. For the chimeras to be part of the platoon, they need to errata the platoon's composition, or the transport rules. But seriously now, do you think that deploying 10 chimeras in DoW is what was intended with that faq?
Yes, I do. The intention was to allow you to deploy an entire platoon as a single troops choice. If you are deploying an entire platoon, then you can OF COURSE deploy the platoon's transports.
I certainly DON'T think that GW intended to make players deploy their mechanized platoons on foot, and force them to roll their Chimeras on next turn. That would be stupid, and since it isn't particularly supported by the language, I am going to go with the non-stupid (and much more supportable) interpretation. Anything I can buy as part of a platoon is part of a platoon, and since the whole platoon is deployed, that means THE WHOLE PLATOON IS DEPLOYED. For the whole platoon to deployed, EVERY PART of the platoon must be deployed. The Chimeras are an option, in the 'Infantry Platoon' section. That does manifestly indicate that they are part of the platoon. Hence, they can be deployed.
Platoon composition is made of units, not wargear or any other nonsense. All the units that compose a platoon are listed there. If it isn't in the composition, itsn't part of the platoon. .
copper.talos wrote:Platoon composition is made of units, not wargear or any other nonsense. All the units that compose a platoon are listed there. If it isn't in the composition, itsn't part of the platoon. .
A Chimera is a unit. It isn't wargear, or 'any other nonsense'.
It is also listed under the platoon entry.
I don't see the problem.
Here's a question; the unit composition for Kommandos says '5-15 Kommandos'. There is an option to purchase Boss Snikrot as an upgrade to the platoon.
Boos Snikrot is not listed under 'Unit Composition' as part of the unit. Does that mean that he ISN'T part of the unit? If so, how do you deploy a unit of Kommandos led by Boss Snikrot in DoW? Particularly since he's not an Independent Character, and so cannot be deployed EXCEPT with the unit?
If he is part of the unit, then we have solid precedent for models that are not covered under 'Unit Composition' but are purchased as upgrades for the unit being deployed together with the unit. How are Chimeras any different?
Seriously, just leave it - there is no point arguing with Copper, as he ignores any explanation given and pretends it doesnt exist.
A chimera is bought as part of the platoon, same as a commisar (who also isnt listed as part of the platoon composition), and is therefore part of the counts-as "unit" called "Platoon" when it comes to DoW. The FAQ talking about what happens when you have a Platoon in reserve simple confirms this - but of course, not to Copper, who apparently cannot comprehend what the FAQ covers.
Copper is the first person who has EVER tried to claim that a chimera is NOT part of the platoon, EVER. I have literally, in the what, 2 years of the IG codex?, seen anyone ever try to claim differently. This includes UKGT (GW and others) winners. People who know the game a HELL of a lot better than Talos. Yes, this is a fallacy (appeal to authority) but, after a while - credulity can only go so far.
Frankly, there is only one non-stupid way to look at this, and it isnt Coppers way. Not by a long shot.
@BeRzErKeR
Boss Snikrot does not have the rules that transports do. It is added to the unit following the kommando entry in the codex.
Platoons do not mention the chimeras at all in their composition although they are units. An infantry unit can get one but following the transport rules as normal. These rules don't make the transports part of the unit (as opposed to kommando-snikrot's entry) but instead they go to great length to emphasize that they are completely separate units. How could a separate unit to the infantry squad be one unit with their platoon?
I am inclined to agree with copper on chimeras not being part of the platoon(strict list of things in the platoon on pg 96 and no chimeras in the list) but they still come in DOW with the platoon as per the FAQ.
For all practical purposes, treat them as being in the platoon because they come in with the platoon(really the only point where this matters, actually) but they are still separate units not listed in the composition list.
So no, they are not part of the platoon, but they still act like they are in every way that matters.
copper.talos wrote:@BeRzErKeR
Boss Snikrot does not have the deployment rules that transports do. It is added to the unit following the kommando entry in the codex.
Platoons do not mention the chimeras at all in their composition. An infantry unit can get one but following the transport rules as normal. These rules don't make the transports part of the unit (as opposed to kommando-snikrot's entry) but instead they go to great length to emphasize that they are completely separate units. How could a separate unit to the infantry squad be one unit with their platoon?
Because there are lots of separate units subsumed within the platoon.
Upgrade Characters (pick whichever one you like; Telion, Snikrot, Iron-hand Straken, whatever) give us precedent that tells us that models not listed in the Unit Composition can be deployed together with the unit, at least when they are selected as upgrades.
A Chimera is selected as an upgrade to an Infantry Squad. It is a Dedicated Transport, and is BOTH an upgrade to the unit AND a separate unit in it's own right.
The Platoon rules tell us that 2-5 Infantry Squads are included in the Platoon.
The FAW tells us that the whole Platoon, including ALL units that are a part of it, can be deployed together as a single Troops choice in DoW deployment.
I do not see any permission given to separate any unit from its upgrades. A Chimera is an upgrade to an Infantry Squad.
The rules for Dedicated Transports do say that they are a separate UNIT. They do NOT, however, say that they are a separate CHOICE on the FOC chart. Since the IGFAQ allows you to deploy an entire Troops CHOICE, including many different UNITS, and there is no specific exception made for the Chimeras (which are, remember, attached to the Infantry Squads as an upgrade as well as being a separate unit) nothing prevents you from deploying any Chimeras that you have purchased as part of the Platoon.
If I was a competitive gamer, I think I would seriously considering starting Guard just for this. Take an infantry-heavy army consisting of two maxed-out platoons with some vehicle support; in DoW missions, I get to have my heavy weapons all set up first turn and blow away a couple units with no return fire.
So just to be "that guy" (and please note I'm not being completely serious with this question). Since the whole platoon "counts as" a single unit, does that mean the whole platoon has to be in coherency when deployed?
Particularly since you could use this, if you went first, to literally cover the midline and force your opponent to deploy only in the rear 6" of his deployment zone. Site the lascannon HWTs a bit further back, and you can open fire on literally any point in your enemy's deployment zone turn 1.
@BeRzErKeR
transports don't take the same FOC slot. The take no slots at all. And they are not an "upgrade" to the unit. They are the dedicated transport of the unit. They have a distinct set of rules. Characters such as Snikrot cannot possibly make a precedent for chimeras as they have their own set of rules.
What's the exact wording? Because if it just says the platoon 'counts as' a single unit for deployment, then I think Happyjew's actually right. If they 'count as' a single unit for deployment, they have to follow ALL the rules for deploying a unit, which I believe includes deploying in coherency. . .
Happyjew wrote:So just to be "that guy" (and please note I'm not being completely serious with this question). Since the whole platoon "counts as" a single unit, does that mean the whole platoon has to be in coherency when deployed?
No, because it only counts as a single unit for the purposes of the mission - and only deploying them in "place of" another unit. From them there is nothing saying that when you actually place them (deployMENT) they must still count as a single unit
COpper - just give up. You're wrong, and will continue to be wrong about this. Your continued attempts at making up rules, AND ignoring errata when it suits you, is just comical. Give up
What's the exact wording? Because if it just says the platoon 'counts as' a single unit for deployment, then I think Happyjew's actually right. If they 'count as' a single unit for deployment, they have to follow ALL the rules for deploying a unit, which I believe includes deploying in coherency. . .
Which would be a small price to pay in order to deploy up to 10 Infantry Squads, 2 Platoon Command Squads, 10 HWS, 4 SWS, 2 Conscripts Squads and 12 Chimeras (absurd example, I know)....
What's the exact wording? Because if it just says the platoon 'counts as' a single unit for deployment, then I think Happyjew's actually right. If they 'count as' a single unit for deployment, they have to follow ALL the rules for deploying a unit, which I believe includes deploying in coherency. . .
You believe wrong - there's never a requirement to deploy in coherency.
You have units A, B and C. Platoon composition says that A & B can be deployed as one unit. Since C is completely separate unit, what gives you the right to deploy it as part of the platoon? There is not even a hint in the rules for that. You can use the transport rules and deploy 1 chimera with the infantry squad, but it counts to the 2 unit limit of DoW, so the rest must come in the 1st turn.
copper.talos wrote:You have units A, B and C. Platoon composition says that A & B can be deployed as one unit. Since C is completely separate unit, what gives you the right to deploy it as part of the platoon? There is not even a hint in the rules for that. You can use the transport rules and deploy 1 chimera with the infantry squad, but it counts to the 2 unit limit of DoW, so the rest must come in the 1st turn.
No, you have a platoon of units 'A' 'B' and 'C'. They are supposed to be deployed as 1 choice in DoW. Unit 'C' is in dedicated transport 'T', but is still required to be deployed with the platoon. If unit 'C' was in Vendetta 'V', it would come in separately.
Surprisingly I can't seem to find that "upgrade" part. Probably more rules falsifying, just the same as your previous claim that dedicated transports occupy the same FOC slot as the unit that bought them.
Buying a unit a dedicated transport has a defined set rules. Mentioning them as an upgrade to the unit are not part of those rules....
copper.talos wrote: Probably more rules falsifying, just the same as your previous claim that dedicated transports occupy the same FOC slot as the unit that bought them.
And before, when deploying, the Infantry Platoon Command Squad was 1 unit, the 2-5 Infantry Platoon Squads were 2-5 units, etc.
Now the platoon (including everything bought for them) counts as 1 unit for the purpose of deployment.
@kirsanth I know that entry. But pg 87 says that dedicated transports sits outside of the FOC! Anyway codex IG says that DTs don't take a FOC slot at all.
If your post was in defence of Nos, he falsified the pg 87 entry from "dedicated transports count as being from the same FOC category" to "dedicated transports count as being from the same FOC slot" to "prove" his point...
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own (for example, the might Space Marine Land Raider).
The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example).
Source: Page 67, Warhammer 40,000 rulebook
Many Imperial Guard units have the option of selecting a dedicated transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any force organisation chart selections, but otherwise function as a separate unit. See the Vehicles section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details on how transport vehicles operate.
Source: Page 99, Codex: Imperial Guard
Infantry Platoon:
Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-2 Special Weapons Squads, and 0-1 Conscript Squad. Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number of units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.
Source: Page 96, Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Imperial Guard FAQ/Errata for January 2010
Transport:
The squad may take a Chimera as a dedicated transport (see page 99 for point cost).
Source: Page 96 (and several others), Codex: Imperial Guard
It really is cut and dry so I'm not sure why there's a small percentage of people trying to argue otherwise. The Infantry Platoon Force Organisation Choice is allowed to deploy as a single unit in Dawn of War, and is rolled for as one unit for reserves/outflanking. The Infantry Platoon is made up of several units, listed under its composition. Some of those units may take a dedicated transport.
The manner in which the Infantry/Command Squads can take a transport is the same way they take any other upgrades. "One Guardsmen may take", "the squad may take", etc. The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad or Command Squad it was purchased for. Those Squads are part of the Infantry Platoon that they were purchased for. That Infantry Platoon gets the Deployment advantage spelled out in the FAQ.
Units that are part of the Infantry Platoon that are in non-dedicated transports are rolled for separately because the transport they are in still needs to make a reserve roll. This is how Land Raiders have worked since 5th Edition was released so its absurd that its confusing people now. You can hold a unit in reserve and put them in a Land raider or Falcon Grav Tank or any other vehicle that has a Transport Capacity. You only make one reserve roll then, and its for the encapsulating vehicle. The cargo literally gets a free ride.
What's really interesting about this, is that this means Al'Rahem's Infantry Platoon can Outflank in Chimeras. So you can have 6 Chimeras, 5 with 1 Meltagun and 1 with 4 Meltaguns, come in from reserve together. Even better, because of the FAQ they only take one outflank roll so they come in from the same table edge.
I've been speculating for a while of making a Mechanized Imperial Guard army, this might just push me over the edge. Only downside is I wouldn't know what to take for an HQ.
nos, I wouldn't say that a DT is an upgrade to a unit; instead, it is a unit purchased to haul the other unit around. FedEx isn't an upgrade to my mail.
But, again, it doesn't matter if the chimeras are part of the platoon or not, the units inside them have to come in when the platoon comes in either way. I personally say they aren't part of the platoon but they go where the platoon goes, so who really cares?
Coppers "argument" is that you cannot deploy them in DoW, along with the Platoon, despite the clear requirement for you to do so.
Arguably they ARE an upgrade - but not being an upgrade doesnt alter that they ARE part of the platoon and ARE deployed along with the rest of the platoon as a counts-as "unit" in DoW.
Nothing Copper says will alter that; he is simply 100% wrong on this entire subject
cowmonaut wrote:T
The manner in which the Infantry/Command Squads can take a transport is the same way they take any other upgrades. "One Guardsmen may take", "the squad may take", etc. The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad or Command Squad it was purchased for. Those Squads are part of the Infantry Platoon that they were purchased for. That Infantry Platoon gets the Deployment advantage spelled out in the FAQ.
You see this is where you are wrong. The way infantry squads take a dedicated transport is no different than an SM squad can take an dedicated transport. So using your way of thinking and keeping in mind that the rules for transports regarding a chimera and a rhino are exactly the same, you can say that just as "The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad..." that "The Dedicated Transport is part of the SM Squad". Although it isn't. Your way of thinking is wrong. They are separate units and in DoW count as 2 units deployed.
Fair enough, I'll deploy my platoon in their Chimeras (which is allowed per the FAQ), and then on my first turn, just disembark everything. Problem solved.
copper.talos wrote:You see this is where you are wrong. The way infantry squads take a dedicated transport is no different than an SM squad can take an dedicated transport. So using your way of thinking and keeping in mind that the rules for transports regarding a chimera and a rhino are exactly the same, you can say that just as "The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad..." that "The Dedicated Transport is part of the SM Squad". Although it isn't. Your way of thinking is wrong. They are separate units and in DoW count as 2 units deployed.
Except there isn't an FAQ that says the SM squad and the Rhino are one unit for deployment. There is for IG Platoons.
The counts-as argument has swayed me the other way.
While The Chimera is indeed a dedicated transport (which has rules backing in the BRB), the FAQ instructs you to treat them as one unit when deploying them in a specific mission deployment restrictions. The FAQ is a codex specific versus the general rules for the BRB.
Interesting move by GW to try and give footslogging IG a chance at an alpha strike tactic. Do I see it working? Not at all.
copper.talos wrote:You see this is where you are wrong. The way infantry squads take a dedicated transport is no different than an SM squad can take an dedicated transport. So using your way of thinking and keeping in mind that the rules for transports regarding a chimera and a rhino are exactly the same, you can say that just as "The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad..." that "The Dedicated Transport is part of the SM Squad". Although it isn't. Your way of thinking is wrong. They are separate units and in DoW count as 2 units deployed.
Space Marines are a different beast entirely unfortunately. You seem to have a conceptual misunderstanding of the Infantry Platoon option of the Imperial Guard Codex.
Multiple Unit Choices Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.
Source: Page 92, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook
So this would shut down putting 2 Tactical Squads, each in a Rhino, on the table in Dawn of War.
Edit: By the way, related/tied to this subject, I don't see how some people think Combat Squads allows for you to have 4 units on the table in Dawn of War. The way its worded, you Combat Squad when you deploy the unit and from that point forward they are treated as separate units for all game purposes. Means you already have 2 on the table so you're done. The Space Marine FAQ doesn't say otherwise anywhere.
The FAQ entry for Infantry Platoons however, as I quoted previously, trumps the rulebook. The benefit of taking Infantry Platoons is that you get to ignore the limitation and can deploy up to 2 Infantry Platoons on the table during Dawn of War missions.
The Chimera is part of the Infantry Platoon. It may be a separate unit from its owning Infantry Squad for operational purposes, but it is still under the umbrella of the Infantry Platoon entry. You're just wrong here, until Games-Workshop explicitly states otherwise.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Particularly since you could use this, if you went first, to literally cover the midline and force your opponent to deploy only in the rear 6" of his deployment zone. Site the lascannon HWTs a bit further back, and you can open fire on literally any point in your enemy's deployment zone turn 1.
You can do that with a 20 man blob anyways. No real biggie there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, one guy disagrees, can this be locked now?
cowmonaut wrote:Units that are part of the Infantry Platoon that are in non-dedicated transports are rolled for separately because the transport they are in still needs to make a reserve roll. This is how Land Raiders have worked since 5th Edition was released so its absurd that its confusing people now. You can hold a unit in reserve and put them in a Land raider or Falcon Grav Tank or any other vehicle that has a Transport Capacity. You only make one reserve roll then, and its for the encapsulating vehicle. The cargo literally gets a free ride.
Actually, I think this is false. The FAQ rules do not give you permission to deploy the Infantry Platoon in several parts. You are required to deploy the entire platoon in place of a single unit. If you put part of the platoon in a non-dedicated transport you can not deploy, you have broken the requirements as stated in the FAQ. It would be similar to deploying a SM combat squad in a transport, while keeping the other part of the squad in reserve. Note that this is only true for the IG platoon in a mission that limits the number of deployed units.
Yep, that's something that hasn't been hit on yet (and would best be in a separate thread, so that it doesn't get lost in the DT discussion. As written, it certainly does seem to be an all or nothing if deploying a platoon in DoW.
That quote doesn't say what you are arguing against. The quote is about units in reserve that are in a non-dedicated transport having only a single roll, for the non-dedicated transport. You can hold an entire Infantry Platoon in reserve, and the non-dedicated transport that some of the Platoon's units may be using would not get the benefit of the Platoon roll.
What you are saying is an excellent catch though! If you deploy a unit, you have to deploy all of it so that does mean that if you set up an Infantry Platoon in Dawn of War you will likely have to deploy all of it or none of it. Something is nagging at the back of my head for some reason. Will see if I can think of what is bugging me about that, but I think you are correct in that regard. It doesn't negate what I said though.
cowmonaut wrote:I've been speculating for a while of making a Mechanized Imperial Guard army, this might just push me over the edge. Only downside is I wouldn't know what to take for an HQ.
How about a priest with Al'Rahem? I think that it is one of the only times that an IC won't cause a unit to lose outflank, as the platoon "must" outflank yet you can still attach characters. Or you could just go for a psyker/ccs with the rest of your forces.
Am I right in thinking that an attached priest can outflank with Al'Rahem?
Getting a little off topic, but the IC wouldn't be able to Join Al'Rahem's Platoon units unless it had Outflank as well (my understanding as a Space Wolf player due to the FAQ clarifications for Saga of the Hunter).
Reviewed the thread again, sounds like most of us agree on the transports. Will be interesting to see if this turns into an issue at the FLGS.
That quote doesn't say what you are arguing against. The quote is about units in reserve that are in a non-dedicated transport having only a single roll, for the non-dedicated transport. You can hold an entire Infantry Platoon in reserve, and the non-dedicated transport that some of the Platoon's units may be using would not get the benefit of the Platoon roll.
What you are saying is an excellent catch though! If you deploy a unit, you have to deploy all of it so that does mean that if you set up an Infantry Platoon in Dawn of War you will likely have to deploy all of it or none of it. Something is nagging at the back of my head for some reason. Will see if I can think of what is bugging me about that, but I think you are correct in that regard. It doesn't negate what I said though.
What you said is correct in general. Just not in this specific case with the IG platoon, because of this silly FAQ ruling. That's why I mentioned it.
Only a tiny bit, as it involves using a priest as your only HQ choice.
The Wolf Lord can still join the scout unit, he just prevents them from outflanking. However, if the priest joins the platoon then either he outflanks or the platoon can't outflank, which isn't possible.
Nothing prevents ICs outflanking though. They don't get to make use of scouts, as it disappears when you attach an IC. However, Al'Rahem doesn't use scouts, he uses his own special rule that says nothing about losing it if an IC joins.
But nothing in Rahem's rule says it is conferred to anything other than the platoon units. And sorry, but for this purpose, that IC is a separate unit that does not have any method of outflank.
don_mondo wrote:But nothing in Rahem's rule says it is conferred to anything other than the platoon units. And sorry, but for this purpose, that IC is a separate unit that does not have any method of outflank.
+1 This.
If the Priest was listed as a part of the platoon on pg. 96(like a Commissar), i'd be okay with it.
Trickstick wrote:Don't ICs count as part of a unit for the purpose of reserves?
No. ICs join the unit in the deployment phase and they you roll for the unit they joined when the time comes.
DoW deployment states you can deploy up to two units from your Troops seleciton. For most armies this is troop selection 1 in thier dedictated transport (if you want to deploy the squad in it's transport) or troop selection 2 in non-dedicated transport. Now with this FAQ it's [platoon] with another unit. Where platoon is clearly defined on the top of the page. I have to agree with copper.talos on this. I see no rule in either the IG rulebook or the main rulebook that says dedicated transports are every considered part of the squad that purchased them. Multiple unit choices on page 92 makes it clear to me that they are not considered part of the squad. They are only bought with the squad. It's the, "count as separate units in all respects" that has me.
After I read the wording in the IG codex I felt cheated against the last IG army I played. He deployed his whole platoon as one unit. I guess he jumped the gun on that one.
My thoughts about all the Al'Rahem outflanking and having an independent character attached it this. Snikrot's ambush rule says his unit may arrive from reserves on any table edge, and as the Ork FAQ has said this includes ICs. Now Al'rahem's platoon must outflank. My question is why does the word may allow us to have an IC attached to the unit arrive with them, and not the word must?
Keep something in mind, outflank is not a USR so it is not lost by a unit that has it if joined by a character that doesn't. We've already found that out from the Valkyrie/Vendetta ruling a couple years back, when the big debate was can the vehicle outflank or use scouts when the unit inside does not, that adding a squad without the rule does not prevent you from outflanking.
Outflank is simple a way of arriving from reserve, so long as the unit is capable of it. An IC does not stop the outflank rule, he stops the scout and infiltrate rule.
I guess further on the Al'Rahem subject, but ignoring the IC part.
For those stating that you cannot deploy the whole platoon with their transports for Dawn of War, would you also say that when you roll Al'Rahem's platoon to come in outflanked that they cannot come in with their transports? That seems like the same thing.
Thought that I would pop off a quick question before bed:
In DoW, can you deploy half of a platoon and keep the other half in reserve? Say I wanted to deploy 1x CCS, 2x PCS and 2x HWS from different platoons, whilst keeping the 4x infantry squads off the table. Is this still fine? I would think yes but was wondering what others thought.
I'm pretty sure it is a situation that is not covered at all by the rules, as a single unit would never usually have this option anyway, at least before the platoon 'pseudo unit' for DoW.
Edit: Basically, as the platoon is deployed "in place of a single unit", are you forced to deploy either the entire platoon or none of it?
Each infantry platoon is deployed in place of a single unit; is half an infantry platoon an infantry platoon?
Since it states 1 infantry platoon = 1 unit for DoW, i'm going to go ahead and say whole platoons only, since if you left off the HWS or an Infantry Squad, you haven't deployed the platoon, you've deployed part of the platoon.
I realy can't see why this is so important. So a IG platoon can deploy a DT with them on DoW. It's not a big deal, I can say that every army list has something to deal with AV 12.
The issue people are having, kinratha, is that Imperial Guard can now deploy their platoons and all of their DTs. It gets tricky to deal with when you start talking 6+ transports.
Normally I think the dedicated transport would be a seperate unit (its pretty clear in the DoW rules in the BRB), BUT.....
...given how the FAQ reads, it DOES sound like the chimera will be able to deploy with the rest of the platoon. ONLY becuase of the way the FAQ entry is written.
Cortez667 wrote:
...given how the FAQ reads, it DOES sound like the chimera will be able to deploy with the rest of the platoon. ONLY becuase of the way the FAQ entry is written.
The FAQ says that the platoon arrives from reserves as one, and it directly implies that dedicated transports arrive with them. This is normal for dedicated transport. They have always arrived with their unit from reserves using 1 reserve roll. BRBpg 94. No need to be considered part of the platoon for the faq to be valid.
Trickstick wrote:Don't ICs count as part of a unit for the purpose of reserves?
No. ICs join the unit in the deployment phase and they you roll for the unit they joined when the time comes.
DoW deployment states you can deploy up to two units from your Troops seleciton. For most armies this is troop selection 1 in thier dedictated transport (if you want to deploy the squad in it's transport) or troop selection 2 in non-dedicated transport. Now with this FAQ it's [platoon] with another unit. Where platoon is clearly defined on the top of the page. I have to agree with copper.talos on this. I see no rule in either the IG rulebook or the main rulebook that says dedicated transports are every considered part of the squad that purchased them. Multiple unit choices on page 92 makes it clear to me that they are not considered part of the squad. They are only bought with the squad. It's the, "count as separate units in all respects" that has me.
After I read the wording in the IG codex I felt cheated against the last IG army I played. He deployed his whole platoon as one unit. I guess he jumped the gun on that one.
The transports are normally considered part of the unit for Reserve and deployment purposes, as in they are rolled for together and placed at the same time (although not necessarily next to each other or even in the same part of the board).
It is this timing of when they are being deployed that is being discussed.
The counter-arguments so far has run along the lines of extending that "part of the unit" to extreme lengths in order to discredit the original premise, or zooming in on the "part of the unit" (disregarding the "for reserve and deployment purposes") and pointing to another rule, concerning another issue, and saying; "See? It isn't part of the unit!".
Fearspect wrote:For those stating that you cannot deploy the whole platoon with their transports for Dawn of War, would you also say that when you roll Al'Rahem's platoon to come in outflanked that they cannot come in with their transports? That seems like the same thing.
Al'Rahem's platoon takes one dice roll to see if they come in. The platoon's transports will all have to be rolled separately (because they are empty). Al'Rahem's platoon MUST outflank, so the only way to do that is outside thier vehicles since I do not believe the chimeras get scout.
copper.talos wrote:The FAQ says that the platoon arrives from reserves as one, and it directly implies that dedicated transports arrive with them. This is normal for dedicated transport. They have always arrived with their unit from reserves using 1 reserve roll. BRBpg 94. No need to be considered part of the platoon for the faq to be valid.
Steelmage99 wrote:The transports are normally considered part of the unit for Reserve and deployment purposes, as in they are rolled for together and placed at the same time (although not necessarily next to each other or even in the same part of the board). It is this timing of when they are being deployed that is being discussed.
Dedicated transports do not always deploy at the same time as the squad who bought them. You make a reserve roll for each unit in reserves. If they are combined (IC joins squad or one unit is in a transport) then you roll once for the combined unit. If I decide to leave my Dire Avengers in reserve not embarked in the transport I bought with them, then I will roll twice - once for the Dire Avengers and once for the wave serpent. Just like when I deploy in dawn of war I may deploy my dire avengers and their wave serpent as my two troops choices. They are always two units deployed and in reserve. At no time do I treat them as a single unit.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Ryan - if you'd read the thread, you would be aware that we are aware that IN THE GAME a dedicated transport is *always* a separate unit.
That is not an issue.
However, according to the FAQ because it is part of the Platoon it *counts as* a single unit JUST for deployment.
Yes, I understand that this thread deals with the FAQ and DoW deployment. The part I don't understand is why you guys think that a transport is *part of a platoon*? There is the platoon ... and their transports. Platoon = PCS, infantry squads, heavy weapon squads,... Everything listed on the top of page 96. I see no dedicated transports in that list. I see a "Platoon counts as a single unit" and not "Platoon and their dedicated transports count as a single unit." That is what I need to see before I would agree with you guys.
The two sides to this disagreement are those who think "Whole Platoon" is the infantry and the transports and those who think "Whole Platoon"is just the infantry.
I'm in the second group just because GW has it throughout the rulebook that dedicated transports are not part of the unit. Not in deploying for Dawn of war, not in reserving, not in moving, shooting, assaulting, morale purposes,...
I'm not saying that I'm right and you should all play my way. I'm saying that this is my interpretation of the rules. Tomorrow if we play each other in a friendly game then we'd have to roll off to see if you get to place your chimeras with the squad if we use Dawn of war deployment. If we were in a tournament then we would ask the T.O.
BTW, for those of you that were thinking you deploy two Force Organization selections, you are thinking of the 4th edition Patrol mission. You are more than welcome to play that mission if you want. It is still a quite good mission.
I am a bit confused on this issue also. We have been playing DoW the last few times.
I have my Command Squad with a Chimera, no problem there.
I have been running a blob platoon consisting of the PCS with a Chimera, 30 man squad and 3 HWTs.
My question is, can I deploy all of that counting as 1 troop choice in the first turn of the game? Or do I have to leave the Chimeras out? I have been told both ways.
Ryan - and, again, your basis for deciding the chimera is not part of the platoon is because you start talking about them being separate units
EVERY SINGLE UNIT IN THE PLATOON IS A SEPARATE UNIT
Understand now? Your defining difference is not, in fact, a difference.
Are commisars part of the platoon? They are not part of the platoon composition. They ARE an upgrade for a unit, same as a chimera is bought for a unique and upgrades its abilities.
Chimera are part of the platoon. Not one sngle person EVER has EVER stated they are not, prior to this FAQ, not in many hundreds of games against IG opponents since t enew book came out. It has never even been considered an issue.
To suddenly claim it in light of this FAQ is dishonest.
Fearspect wrote: Al'Rahem's platoon takes one dice roll to see if they come in. The platoon's transports will all have to be rolled separately (because they are empty). Al'Rahem's platoon MUST outflank, so the only way to do that is outside thier vehicles since I do not believe the chimeras get scout.
The transport doesn't need to have Scout to Outflank. I think this is part of the problem, people think that only units with Infiltrate and Scout can Outflank. There are exceptions to this in other army lists, where a unit is given the ability to Outflank without being given Scout or Infiltrate. Easiest example again is the Space Wolf Saga of the Hunter. This Saga gives the HQ choice the ability to Outflank. Normally if an IC joins a unit, that unit cannot Outflank because the IC does not have the ability to. If it takes Saga of the Hunter, now it can.
Similar thing here. Al'Rahem's ability gives all units of his Platoon the ability to outflank and the requirement that they do so. The crux of the argument for both the DoW deployment and the Outflanking is are the transports part of the Platoon? The FAQ on its own seems to say so, given it specifically states that units of the Platoon in a non-dedicated transport are rolled for separately. This directly implies that if they are in a dedicated transport it would still only be one roll for reserves and outflanking.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
However, according to the FAQ because it is part of the Platoon it *counts as* a single unit JUST for deployment.
Yes, I understand that this thread deals with the FAQ and DoW deployment. The part I don't understand is why you guys think that a transport is *part of a platoon*? There is the platoon ... and their transports. Platoon = PCS, infantry squads, heavy weapon squads,... Everything listed on the top of page 96. I see no dedicated transports in that list. I see a "Platoon counts as a single unit" and not "Platoon and their dedicated transports count as a single unit." That is what I need to see before I would agree with you guys.
The two sides to this disagreement are those who think "Whole Platoon" is the infantry and the transports and those who think "Whole Platoon"is just the infantry.
I'm in the second group just because GW has it throughout the rulebook that dedicated transports are not part of the unit. Not in deploying for Dawn of war, not in reserving, not in moving, shooting, assaulting, morale purposes,...
The IG Platoon is unique however. It's a ForceOrg choice made up of multiple units that are independent in every way outside of deployment and reserves.
Look, is a Rhino taken by a Tactical Squad a "troop" choice? The rules in two different places imply that they are: 1) when GW explicitly states that dedicated transports don't take up a ForceOrg slot and (possibly) 2) when GW says a vehicle cannot be a scoring unit. However what seems to be argued here is that the dedicated transport has nothing to do with the unit that bought it, other than allowing them to start in it.
If what is being argued is true you couldn't have any transport on the table in Dawn of War. After all, you are only allowed 1 HQ unit and 2 Troop units. Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?
Either everyone in the world has been playing wrong all this time or, however unfortunate it may be, IG now can put down up to 13 Chimeras on the table in DoW games. Take your pick, you can't have it both ways.
No, it was an issue when making a roll for the platoon to come in from reserves - even empty chimera were rolled for at the time.
EVERY time I have seen people use platoons every single person has figured, correctly, that the chimera are part of the platoon. Only now are some people desperately trying to find a way around it.
cowmonaut wrote:
If what is being argued is true you couldn't have any transport on the table in Dawn of War. After all, you are only allowed 1 HQ unit and 2 Troop units. Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?
Of course there is a rule about it, it's in BRBpg 87.
A platoon consists of the units in its composition. The "link" between platoon and chimeras is an infantry squad. A chimera & infantry squads interract using the dedicated transport rules. These rules allow the chimera to
A. be bought without using a FOC slot
B count as the same FOC category -not slot- as the squad that bought it
C. come from reserves along with the unit that bought it using 1 roll
D start the game with only the unit that bought it embarked in it
Those are the only rules. Transports are not upgrades, commisar-like-characters, or wargear of any sorts. Both BRB and codex IG empasize that they are completely separate units in all regards.
If this interraction between a DT and its unit is not sufficient to make it count as one unit when ie an SM squad and a rhino deploy in DoW, how can it possibly provide a "link" to make a chimera count as one unit with a platoon?
copper.talos wrote:If this interraction between a DT and its unit is not sufficient to make it count as one unit when ie an SM squad and a rhino deploy in DoW, how can it provide a "link" to make a chimera part of a platoon ?
Because there's no FAQ supporting it for the SM+Rhino.
danpieri wrote:I am a bit confused on this issue also. We have been playing DoW the last few times. I have my Command Squad with a Chimera, no problem there.
Actually, that is a problem. Company Command Squad = 1 HQ unit, their chimera is a separate HQ unit .
Page 87, Dedicated transports, “Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organizataion structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this disctinction is called for [...], dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organization category as the unit they were bought for.” That's two HQ units you have deployed while DoW says you can only have one
nosferatu1001 wrote:Chimera are part of the platoon. Not one sngle person EVER has EVER stated they are not, prior to this FAQ, not in many hundreds of games against IG opponents since the new book came out. It has never even been considered an issue.
To suddenly claim it in light of this FAQ is dishonest.
It never was an issue with me before. The FAQ errata changed the wording and now it is. When something changes you can't expect your actions to not change.
Before the FAQ you could only deploy 2 units from the platoon in DoW. After the FAQ you can deploy the whole platoon. That's quite a big change there.
Before the FAQ you could deploy the whole platoon in the old Patrol mission. After the FAQ you can still do that. See the difference?
kirsanth wrote:The problem is that in other scenarios, rolling for the platoon meant even the transports came on.
If you declared in your deployment phase that the squads were embarked in their transports, then you would only roll once for the platoon and the combined transports would come in too. If you declared that the transports were empty, then you should have rolled for the empty transports separately.
copper.talos wrote:Of course there is a rule about it, it's in BRBpg 87.
I'm blind apparently. I was wondering about that.
Dedicated Transports Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transports count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) it would counts as Elites.
Unfortunately this doesn't help us here.
copper.talos wrote:
If this interraction between a DT and its unit is not sufficient to make it count as one unit when ie an SM squad and a rhino deploy in DoW, how can it possibly provide a "link" to make a chimera count as one unit with a platoon?
And this is why, as was previously mentioned. The exception to the rules is the Infantry Platoon entry itself.
We're going in circles. Again it comes down to are the Chimeras part of the Infantry Platoon. Many say yes, many say no. I'm starting to see the argument for "no" now but I'm still convinced that they would be part of the Infantry Platoon.
Your question was: Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?
The answer is in the passage you quoted. The transport count as the same FOCcategory. It's not in the same slot. So the transport counts as a troop unit in general but not the same troop unit as the unit that bought them. So there is no link to the FOC slot of the chimera and the platoon at all.
It's not part of the platoon's composition, it's not part of or counts as one with a unit in the platoon's composition, then how on earth did it end up inside the platoon's composition?
Funny, the question you continually refuse to answer (one of many, actually, but we'll focus on this for now) is: A Commisar is ALSO not stated as being part of the platoon composition. So does that mean a commissar is not part of the platoon?
Answer or desist with your continual ignorance of the rules.
copper.talos wrote:It's not part of the platoon's composition, it's not part of or counts as one with a unit in the platoon's composition, then how on earth did it end up inside the platoon's composition?
And yet it is bought from the Platoon entry under the PCS or Inf Squad dedicated transport. So how is it not part of the platoon?
I agree with you nos but you really shouldn't use the commissar example. He is part of the infantry squad and is not a seperate unit at all, so there would never be a question about him not being a part of the platoon.
Mind you I'm on yourside, but I'm not sure that argument holds.
Look at page 89 of Codex: Imperial Guard. You'll see this entry:
Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.
The Infantry Platoon isn't a unit so I don't think this applies, but it explains why a Commissar would be part of the Infantry Platoon. Unfortunately that page also lists out Dedicated Transports separately from Options, and the Options entry is explained as the "upgrades" for the unit.
I still think that Infantry Platoon should/does include the dedicated transports but don't think the Commissar argument works to defend it.
don_mondo wrote:
copper.talos wrote:It's not part of the platoon's composition, it's not part of or counts as one with a unit in the platoon's composition, then how on earth did it end up inside the platoon's composition?
And yet it is bought from the Platoon entry under the PCS or Inf Squad dedicated transport. So how is it not part of the platoon?
Agreed. That's really my point. The dedicated transport is purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon when you build your army list. Just like the Infantry Squads and PCS. Its part of the Infantry Platoon entry.
@nos Is this your argument? Really?
Does the commisar have a rule that says it is a separate unit from the squad? No. Chimera? Yes
Can the commisar deploy without the squad? No. Chimera? Yes
Is the Commisar bought as a transport for the squad? No Chimera? Yes
A commisar is an integral part of the squad. Until he dies it's always there. It's in all respects part of the squad and so it becomes one with the platoon. The chimera on the contrary is not. How can you possibly (or even worse, convincingly) use the commisar as an example to why the chimera is part of the squad, I don't know...
+1 to cowmonaut. He has a good point too regarding the commisar comparison.
@cowmonaut You are not buying the chimera as part of the platoon. You are buying it as a transport for a squad. The rules for transports don't make them part of the platoon.
Yes, but only the units that make a platoon. Platoon composition doesn't mention any transports at all. There must be a rule to justify adding transports to a platoon, not a rule to justify that a transport is not part of a platoon.
So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.
Bottom line, round and round we go. You're not gonna change my mind, I'm not gonna change yours. How about we agree to disagree, lock this and wait for GW to realize that there's a disagreement on the matter. (Problem being, they may think it's so straightforward that it doesn't need an FAQ "OF course it's ............)
You don't buy the transport from another FOC. They don't belong to the FOC at all. They only count as the being from a FOC category under certain circumstances.
And chimeras are not part of the platoon page, they are part of the dedicated transports page.
Anyway, I too wish it will get a quick fix. This can ruin whole tournaments.
copper.talos wrote:You don't buy the transport from another FOC. They don't belong to the FOC at all. They only count as the being from a FOC category under certain circumstances.
And chimeras are not part of the platoon page, they are part of the dedicated transports page.
Um, you are wrong there. They are "part of the platoon page". That's why there is a section of the Infantry Squad and PCS that tells you to go look on Page 99 for point costs, stats, and options for the transport. Your argument is akin to complaining that the weapons stats aren't listed on the platoon page so they guardsmen are not armed.
GW really didn't think this one through when they answered it. At the same time though, how many tournaments allowed Al'Rahem to Outflank in Chimeras? The reason that I ask is because if Al'Rahem can Outflank in Chimeras, then you can deploy Chimeras in Dawn of War. Al'Rahem's special rule states "members of his infantry platoon must outflank". It only gives Outflank to units of his platoon. So if Chimeras got Outflank from him, then they get to be deployed in Dawn of War.
This question has to have come up in several tourneys before. A brief Google search just turns up random forums with lists and discussions of Al'Rahem outflanking in Chimeras, but that's not close enough to official to matter. Need to see some Tournement rulings or FAQs that state Al'Rahem can't take dedicated transports. That's the proof you need copper.talos, and if it doesn't exist then I'd say you are just wrong.
Is a unit, that is bought for another unit, an (lets say, to avoid the use of "upgrade") "enhancement" for 1 particular unit, or for the whole platoon?
For deployment and reserves, can the platoon make use of it (ie embark) or not? Or can just 1 unit?
To go to daftsville, I have a platoon of 3 units that is deployed in place of 1 unit.
Can I even use my 3 chimeras at all?
Am I not now deploying 1 unit, in three seperate transports?
I think people are losing sight of the rules based on how stupid the idea of having specific permission to deploy multiple units, where other armies are more limited, but ending up with different permissions re what you can/can't do, for deployment vs reserve arrival.
The faq has landed us right in the middle of these different permissions, without explaining how they work.
danpieri wrote:But the Chimera is a dedicated transport for the CCS and the PCS. How can it be a separate command choice if there is no command squad in it?
I'm not sure what you are asking here danpieri. Are you asking about deploying a chimera bought with the Company Command Squad in Dawn of War (where you deploy units not choices? If so, then read page 87 in the main rulebook. If not, please post again a little clearer.
don_mondo wrote:So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.
Another bad example from you. This is 5th edition - you can buy a DT with squad A and have squad B embark in it during the game. It's done all the time. In 4th edition it was not allowed.
don_mondo wrote:So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.
Another bad example from you. This is 5th edition - you can buy a DT with squad A and have squad B embark in it during the game.
Since we are discussing deployment, this is entirely irrelevant. That cannot be done at the point this discussion is referring to.
Editing to add: Before I get accused of defending another person entirely capable of defending themselves - I am simply pointing out erroneous statements.
@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.
Anyway Al'Rahem in order to outflank he must be kept in reserves. When arriving from the reserves, chimeras arrive along with the embarked unit because of basic transport/reserve rules, NOT because the chimeras are part of the platoon.
copper.talos wrote:
Anyway Al'Rahem in order to outflank he must be kept in reserves. When arriving from the reserves, chimeras arrive along with the embarked unit because of basic transport/reserve rules, NOT because the chimeras are part of the platoon.
It is important. A unit with outflanking cannot outflank in a transport not cable of outflanking. If the unit had Infiltrate/Scout, they can outflank in their dedicated transport. But Al'Rahem's Platoon does not have Infiltrate or Scout. They have Outflank. If the Chimeras are not part of the Platoon, they do not have Outflank. They do not have Scout either, so they can't Outflank.
Basically, if the Chimera's not part of the Platoon, you can't take Chimera's with Al'Rahem. Or you can but they don't outflank and just come on the board normally...
copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.
Under the Infantry Platoon entry is two entries: Command Squad and Infantry Squad. Under these entries is an option that says they can purchase dedicated transports at the price listed on Page 99. Ignoring it won't help your argument at all. Chimeras are listed under Infantry/Command Squads which are listed under the Infantry Platoon entry.
don_mondo wrote:So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.
Another bad example from you. This is 5th edition - you can buy a DT with squad A and have squad B embark in it during the game.
Since we are discussing deployment, this is entirely irrelevant. That cannot be done at the point this discussion is referring to.
But I was referring to Don mondo's example, which never mentions deployment. He just mentioned "who get's it" and not "when" they get it.
copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.
So you're now saying that there's not even an option to buy a chimera anywhere on the platoon page?? Funny, there is in my IG codex......................
pg. 94, Outflank: "Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it"
This quote allows Al'Rahem to outflank in transports. Also, not a hard rule, but it insinuates that when a unit is embarked in transports, the transports act in the same way units do, i.e. DOW they all deploy at once.
copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.
Actually, it only says that for units with Infiltrate or Scout.
Page 94, main rules:
During deployment, players may declare that units with the ‘scout’ or ‘infiltrate’ special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy.
(snip description of how outflank works)
Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it.
So yes, the Chimera's would have to be considered part of the platoon and units that receive Outflank in their own right for them to be able to Outflank as part of Rahem's platoon, whether they are empty or not.
So, you deploy at the 24" mark.
Orks reserve everything.
Turn 2 (or whatever turn) orks come in with wagons and Ghazzy.
Move 13, jump out 2 (with is just about 4" with Gazzies base), declare WAAGH, move 6", Charge into the Platoon to tie you up and keep the big guns from shooting at the Boyz.
Snikrot and a second PK-Boss come in from the back to kill your non-moving Ordance (manticores/Colossus).
Yeah, I can see the IG full deployment in DoW lasting all of 1 battle report.
dkellyj wrote:So, you deploy at the 24" mark.
Orks reserve everything.
Turn 2 (or whatever turn) orks come in with wagons and Ghazzy.
Move 13, jump out 2 (with is just about 4" with Gazzies base), declare WAAGH, move 6", Charge into the Platoon to tie you up and keep the big guns from shooting at the Boyz.
Snikrot and a second PK-Boss come in from the back to kill your non-moving Ordance (manticores/Colossus).
Yeah, I can see the IG full deployment in DoW lasting all of 1 battle report.
Course, if I'm deploying my IG at the 24" mark, that means I'm going first. So under your scenario I will have backpedaled for two turns or more to open the distance between my units and his side of the board. That means I'm at 36" or so inches away when he moves on in turn 2. So yeah, go ahead and call taht Waaagh the turn you move on. Somehow, I think I'm still out of assault range.
At this point, I'm more interested in the additional question this has brought up. Must you deploy the entire platoon if you deploy any part of it in DoW? Seems to be a yes to me.
don_mondo wrote: At this point, I'm more interested in the additional question this has brought up. Must you deploy the entire platoon if you deploy any part of it in DoW? Seems to be a yes to me.
I think that's a pretty clear yes. The FAQ says "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number of units that can be deployed." That sounds all or nothing to me. The rest of it is about reserves and outflanking.
don_mondo wrote:At this point, I'm more interested in the additional question this has brought up. Must you deploy the entire platoon if you deploy any part of it in DoW? Seems to be a yes to me.
copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.
Anyway Al'Rahem in order to outflank he must be kept in reserves. When arriving from the reserves, chimeras arrive along with the embarked unit because of basic transport/reserve rules, NOT because the chimeras are part of the platoon.
This is demonstrably and explicitly false.
The rules say that if a unit with the USR or Infiltrate or Scout choose to Outflank, and if they are emarked on a DT, the DT can outflank with them.
Does that platoon have Infiltrate or Scout USR? Heck, does i even have Outflank? No, it has none of those things. Al'rahem outflanks, and gets to bring 'his platoon' along with him. He does *not* give a platoon any special rules.
If you use the stance that chimeras are not part of the platoon, then no chimera can go with Al'rahem's platoon when they Outflank with him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.
You need to re-read the Outflank rule, because you are getting it wrong. His statement is correct.
copper.talos wrote:@nos Is this your argument? Really?
No, but you were ignoring the other 3 arguments and lying through your teeth, so i thought id feed you some more
(Snip increasingly inane text)
copper.talos wrote:The chimera on the contrary is not. How can you possibly (or even worse, convincingly) use the commisar as an example to why the chimera is part of the squad, I don't know...
(my bolding you lying through your teeth)
Good job I wasnt. Yet again you are lying through your teeth by misrepresenting anothers argument in an attempt to build a strawman.
The chimera is brought as part of the platoon. At no point on any forum will you persuade any significant amount of people that you are right, unless GW decide to blow the potential cash cow that this ruling brings them.
I see plenty of places where a chimera is part of the platoon on that page, its mentioned quite a fewtimes. You keep missing it I assume - or did you tippex them out so you could "prove" your argument to yourself?
That he is an upgrade for the platoon, and similarly a chimera can be considered one as well
It's just an attempt, one that has apparently gone waaaaay over your head, to show that asininely repeating "DIFFERENT UNIT!!!!! DIFFERENT UNIT!!!!" like it actually has anything whatsoever to do with this FAQ is pointless troll behaviour
Just a tip: i've given constructive arguments and explained my point, and you've been found trolling in two different forums now.
copper.talos wrote:Your question was: Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?
The answer is in the passage you quoted. The transport count as the same FOCcategory. It's not in the same slot. So the transport counts as a troop unit in general but not the same troop unit as the unit that bought them. So there is no link to the FOC slot of the chimera and the platoon at all.
The fact we are now on page 8 of arguments going back and forth about whether Chimeras bought for an Infantry Squad in an Infantry Platoon are part of said Platoon (they are) allows me to be as ridiculous as I can be in refuting what copper.talos has stated in the above quoted passage.
It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies.
Counterargument: Such DT bought for their units' do care which slot they come from as opposed to just the FOC as evidenced by IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance. Why is this so? Becuase by virtue of a squad of IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance, the Storm Troopers themselves have the Scouts USR, which by virtue of the BRB, says they confer to their DT if deployed inside of it, This again matters as the IG Storm Trooper Chimera, and not some random Elite FOC Chimera (either from another IGST Sqd, Ogryn, etc.) has the Scout USR as well. Nor does the DT lose that ability after deployment (admittedly it has no other use after deployment but it does differentiate one Elite FOC Chimera from another as one would have the Scouts USR and another would not) nor when the squad inside disembarks. Just by deploying inside it the IGST give their DT the Scouts USR for the rest of the game.
Again why does this matter? Because the Chimera bought speficially for the IGST has the Scouts USR while other Elite FOC Chimeras do not, thus individualizeing that particular Chimera to the IGST (aside from the attachment already refernced by the BRB on pg. 87). So there is precedence where DTdo associate with the same slot that they are purchased for. Taking this back to our Troop DT, the same can be said to apply. Chimeras bought as DT for a PCS or Infantry Squad are a PCS or Infantry Squad Chimera respectively and ALSO happen to belong to the whole Platoon concept presented in the IG Codex.
If that isn't enough then there's this:
It has also been argued that because Chimeras aren't listed in the Infantry Platoon Composition on pg. 96 of the IG Codex that they are never a part of the Platoon. I would like to direct those people to pg. 89 of the IG Codex where it says the following concering the Composition:
IG Codex pg. 89 wrote:Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.
Emphasis mine. So yes, before any upgrades are taken I'll agree that the Platoon doesn't include Chimeras. After upgrades are taken, if the Chimera transport option is taken for any PCS or Infantry Squads, then yes the Platoon does include Chimeras in it.
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies
In any case the chimera takes no FOC slot at all. When in a scenario such as DoW, the PBS chimera counts as being from the Elites FOC category
*sigh* Have you ever read the transport rules?
The normal game rules tell us that Multiple Unit Choices (BRB page 92, dedicated transports as the example even) bought under the same FOC slot are in all respects otherwise separate units...
The IG Platoon rule in itself countermands this even without the FAQ. It makes no mention of any difference between the mandatory squads, the optional squads or the optional dedicated transports.
edit: pg 96 of the IG codex - no difference made between mandatory or optional units, DTs or not. Either all are a single choice or you'll have to ask people to only deploy the PCS + 2Inf squads.
And in what page of the IG codex can I find that rule?
Some have tried to claim that chimeras are upgrades to the unit, such as a commisar(?) and so the inclusion in the platoon is excused. Don't you think that if there were such a rule, such farfetched arguments wouldn't be needed?
Just check the pages I've listed and you won't need anything farfetched at all to see Chimeras are part of the platoon. They're part of a Multiple Unit Choice, by the example in the BRB - and as the IG codex demands this MUC do certain things the DTs must follow.
The platoon is not a general collection of units. It lists precisely the units that can compose it. Can you see any chimeras in it? Or should I totally disregard that and take random units and make a platoon.
Dedicated transports are given as part of MUCs, being in the same FOC slot and all. IG platoons are a MUC, and you deploy the full FOC choice at once. Chimeras are in the platoon's FOC slot. If you don't deploy them you break the rules.
Have you not read any of the previous arguments? OK let me repeat it for the 131032 time. Dedicated transports don't take the same FOC slot. as the platoon They don't take any FOC slots at all. They count as being from the same FOCcategory -not slot- in scenarios such as DoW.
Deploying chimeras along with the platoon is allowed as because of the transport's rules, not because they are part of the platoon.
copper.talos wrote:Have you not read any of the previous arguments? OK let me repeat it for the 131032 time. Dedicated transports don't take the same FOC slot. as the platoon They don't take any FOC slots at all. They count as being from the same FOCcategory -not slot- in scenarios such as DoW.
And for the 131033rd time you are STILL WRONG.
Page 92. Multiple Unit Choices. Have you read it yet, or are you still sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending it doesnt exist?
"at the cost of a single Force Organisation Chart slot (like dedicated transports, etc)"
So, for the 131033rd time, since you like using hyperbole to attempt to prove a point (making it all the more hilarious when you get it wrong, again) care to find a rule saying they arent part of the platoon, because we've found many that show the opposite.
IG codex pg 99 dedicated transports "These vehicles do not use up any Force Organisation Chart selection, but otherwise function as separate units"
BRBpg 67 dedicated transports " These dedicated transports don't use up a slot on the FOC"
BRBpg 92 Multiple unit choices "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects" - this passage you "forgot" clears up that multiple unit choices except from being bought as a single choice has no other effect in the game at all.
Can a SM squad deploy as 1 unit with his attached rhino? No. Why not then? Does the platoon mention units and their attached transports? Are there rules that explain in a platoon how units attached to transports interract differently from the rules in BRB ?
Or should you focus on the fact that they are completely separate units in all respects as emphasised in multiple unit choices?
Wow, yet again you bring up the Rhino strawman argument
Apparently you keep forgetting specific > general, despite the number of times youre told.
Can you stop commiting so many logical fallacies, especially ones so HILARIOUSLY awful as that one? It might make your arguments worth a damn.
Oh, and as you apparently dont understand another sentence - while the IG codex says they do not "use up" another slot, that doesnt mean they dont exist IN a slot - they just do not "use [it] up"; same as SM honour guard, et al.
Not a tricky sentence to parse, but you've used it so many times thinking it means something different i thought it was worth correcting you again
Where is the specifics in the platoon rules that overcomes that argument? The best thing you came up was that transports and comisars are the same regarding to the squad (really?) and the BRB multiple unit choices that claimed the exact opposite of your argument.
What happens if you buy a chimera for Al'Raheem and you dont put a squad in it. Al'Raheem's platoon must outflank, does this apply to chimera's bought for Al'Raheem?
Is there an official ruling regarding Al Rahem and empty chimeras? I can't seem to find one in the faqs and I don't understand why should he be different than any case when a unit that outflanks arrives not embarked in its transport.
copper.talos wrote:Where is the specifics in the platoon rules that overcomes that argument? The best thing you came up was that transports and comisars are the same regarding to the squad (really?) and the BRB multiple unit choices that claimed the exact opposite of your argument.
The FAQ, you know - the one that makes the WHOLE platoon (one that is GASP composed of many different units!) COUNT AS ONE UNIT for the purposes of deplotying.
Can you find one that says a Tac Squad + Rhino is a single unit when deploying in deployment restricted missions? You CANT? Gosh, who;d have thought
Your strawman has been debunked every. single. time. you have attempted it. GIVE UP
Duce - yep, frustrated that one poster is just about the most dishonest poster i've yet met - strawmen arguments being just the LEAST of the logical fallacies they commit all the way through. Repeatedly ignoring their argument being proven wrong doesnt help either.
The whole platoon deploys as one unit, but the units is made of are those in the description of the platoon. Not those which you choose to arbitrarily add. If a unit is not in the description of a platoon and there is no rule to say that that unit under certain circumstances can be added to the platoon, then there is no excuse to add it in the platoon.
Your arguments were that
a transport is like the comisar (huh?)
multiple unit choice rule in brb - which claimed the opposite
the faq - which doesn't mention that chimeras are part of the platoon and the deployment passage fits the normal transport & reserve rules without the chimeras being part of the platoon
the chimeras are an option in the platoon page - they are in the dedicated transport page
that chimeras are part of the platoon just because you say so - platoon composition in IG codex disagrees.
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies.
Counterargument:
He is right in saying that.
The counter-argument means nothing.
Every dedicated transport, by its very nature is purchased for 1 unit. It is unique.
Lets say squad 1 (the 1 with the plasma gun) buys a chimera.
Even if that chimera was identically equipped with all the others, it's still unique.
Beyond deployment and arriving from reserve together, if the unit is embarked, there is no "special relationship" that binds these 2 entirely individual units together at all.
So, if you apply this to a ccs, despite the chimera clearly "belonging" to it in respects to deployment and reserves, the chim only exists as an hq unit and not in any way part of the ccs, so they cannot both be deployed in DOW.
Does this make any kind of sense? Is it the RAW?
nosferatu1001 wrote:"at the cost of a single Force Organisation Chart slot (like dedicated transports, etc)"
Quoting part of that rule is misleading.
The transport does not cost anything, the unit that must exist before the dt was bought did.
copper.talos wrote:The whole platoon deploys as one unit, but the units is made of are those in the description of the platoon. Not those which you choose to arbitrarily add. If a unit is not in the description of a platoon and there is no rule to say that that unit under certain circumstances can be added to the platoon, then there is no excuse to add it in the platoon.
Odd, I can see that on the platoon page I can choose to add a chimera as an upgrade....odd that. Guess your tippex is working overtime
copper.talos wrote:Your arguments were that
a transport is like the comisar (huh?)
Wow, you still dont get it. I was trying to explain, futilely, by using an analogous creature - the commisar. I was showing that as the Commisar is NOT shown as part of the platoon (same as a chimera) but is still part of the platoon, so is the chimera.
You still apparently dont understand the analogy, so rather than pursue ANOTHER futile argument, i steered away from it. I guess analgy was too complicated a concept.
copper.talos wrote:multiple unit choice rule in brb - which claimed the opposite
No, your argument is that the chimera isnt part of the same FOC slot as the platoon squads, despite the MUC rules stating the exact opposite. Yes, they repeat (which you keep harking on about, as if it matters one jot) that it is a separate unit - but this doesnt matter for this discussion, as the concept of specific > general (you seem to struggle with this, so bear with - this is for the benefit of others who may actually think you have a valid argument now, not you) means that they are one "unit" when deploying.
copper.talos wrote:the faq - which doesn't mention that chimeras are part of the platoon and the deployment passage fits the normal transport & reserve rules without the chimeras being part of the platoon
Wrong, it doesnt for empty chimera. Yet again you keep ignoring this hole in your argument. There is one "instead" condition given; dedicated transports are part of the platoon, INSTEAD if you are on a non-dedicated transport you dont roll with the rest of your platoon.
copper.talos wrote:the chimeras are an option in the platoon page - they are in the dedicated transport page
Their stats are listed there, but they are indeed an option on the platoon page - you must keep missing it. Or you're claiming that "lasguns" arent part of a platoon, because while they are listed on the platoon page their stats are elsewhere
copper.talos wrote:that chimeras are part of the platoon just because you say so - platoon composition in IG codex disagrees.
Stop lying, again. I have never said "just because I say so"
You havea real issue with truthfulness
copper.talos wrote:Any other arguments to add to the above list?
Nope, all my arguments have been laid out clearly and you have yet to actually disprove anything of substance - you keep building strawmen arguments, fail at understanding the FAQ, fail at understanding specific vs general, and feel the need to repeatedly lie.
In any case the chimera takes no FOC slot at all. When in a scenario such as DoW, the PBS chimera counts as being from the Elites FOC category *sigh* Have you ever read the transport rules?
Yes I have read the rules concerning DT and how they apply for DoW. Did you just stop reading there and not continue with the rest of my argument for some reason? You are awfully silent on the issues I raise. I brought up the example of the IGST to specifically refute a point you made earlier about DT and how they are not attached to the slot they are bought for even though pg. 87 explicitly tells us they are attached to the unit they are bought for.
BRBpg. 87 wrote:Dedicated transports Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for.
Emphasis mine. So are the Chimeras bought for Infantry Squads or PCS, as part of a Platoon, no longer "attached" to the Infantry Squads or PCS that bought them? Seems like breaking a rule of pg. 87 and the BRB...
No one claimed then that the chimera is an upgrade. The suggestion seemed so wrong that nobody cared to argue otherwise.
Do you not like my choice of word of "upgrade"? Perhaps "option" would be a better choice? It still does not invalidate my argument about what the Platoon Composition is or isn't before "upgrades", "options", or whatever are taken. Also, I do not find the discussion of Jokero weapon upgrades and how they don't apply to Chimeras (as they are always a separate unit) relevant to the discussion concerning DoW deployment, IG Infantry Platoons, and Chimeras (which by the FAQ are given explicit permission to deploy as one unit in a DoW type scenario). No one is arguing that Chimeras are not ever, outside of the very specific exception given by the new IGFAQ, a separate unit from the squad that purchased them.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Odd, I can see that on the platoon page I can choose to add a chimera as an upgrade....odd that. Guess your tippex is working overtime
No you get to add a chimera as a dedicated transport. That means that that chimera entry is independent from the platoon as opposed to comisars, autocannos etc
[quote=nosferatu1001
Wow, you still dont get it. I was trying to explain, futilely, by using an analogous creature - the commisar. I was showing that as the Commisar is NOT shown as part of the platoon (same as a chimera) but is still part of the platoon, so is the chimera.
You still apparently dont understand the analogy, so rather than pursue ANOTHER futile argument, i steered away from it. I guess analgy was too complicated a concept.
You tried to compare a transport with a comisar while they are completele and utterly irrelevant cases. There is no point to be made using that comparison any way you look at it. Same thing with wargear.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, your argument is that the chimera isnt part of the same FOC slot as the platoon squads, despite the MUC rules stating the exact opposite. Yes, they repeat (which you keep harking on about, as if it matters one jot) that it is a separate unit - but this doesnt matter for this discussion, as the concept of specific > general (you seem to struggle with this, so bear with - this is for the benefit of others who may actually think you have a valid argument now, not you) means that they are one "unit" when deploying.
That rule says that multiple units after being bought, they are separate in all respects. What part of "all respects" you don't undestand? Especially when the codex IG doesn't change at all this rule.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong, it doesnt for empty chimera. Yet again you keep ignoring this hole in your argument. There is one "instead" condition given; dedicated transports are part of the platoon, INSTEAD if you are on a non-dedicated transport you dont roll with the rest of your platoon.
So this is where your confusion lies? The faq says that non dedicated transports WITH platoon units inside arrive on a separate roll. So INSTEAD dedicated units WITH platoon units inside arrive as normal with the platoon. This faq doesn;t change a thing about chimeras and their deployment empty or not.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Their stats are listed there, but they are indeed an option on the platoon page - you must keep missing it. Or you're claiming that "lasguns" arent part of a platoon, because while they are listed on the platoon page their stats are elsewhere
In order to take an autocannon you are just given a cost to pay. In the case of chimera it says that you can buy it as a dedicated transport, that means you go to the dedicated transport page (so you leave the platoon page) and follow the rules that say that the transport is separate from the unit in all respects. You can't use that unit as an excuse to include the chimera in the platoon. There must be a rule to do so. Unfortunately for you there isn't one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Evil Lamp 6 wrote: So are the Chimeras bought for Infantry Squads or PCS, as part of a Platoon, no longer "attached" to the Infantry Squads or PCS that bought them? Seems like breaking a rule of pg. 87 and the BRB...
I am not breaking any rules. You are making new ones. This attachment you claim exists and it's the same attachment a SM squad has with its rhino. IG don't have special rules regarding how dedicated transports interract with their unit. You follow the same rules with everybody else. So since this attachment is not good enough for a rhino to deploy as one with the SM squad, then it's not good enough to deploy as one with an infantry squad, and definetely not good enough to be made part of the platoon.
Evil Lamp 6 wrote: Do you not like my choice of word of "upgrade"? Perhaps "option" would be a better choice? It still does not invalidate my argument about what the Platoon Composition is or isn't before "upgrades", "options", or whatever are taken. Also, I do not find the discussion of Jokero weapon upgrades and how they don't apply to Chimeras (as they are always a separate unit) relevant to the discussion concerning DoW deployment, IG Infantry Platoons, and Chimeras (which by the FAQ are given explicit permission to deploy as one unit in a DoW type scenario). No one is arguing that Chimeras are not ever, outside of the very specific exception given by the new IGFAQ, a separate unit from the squad that purchased them.
Chimeras are not upgrades\ wargear\characters\options. They are transports. Follow transport rules only.
And the FAQ doesn't in no way say that chimeras are part of the platoon. It only wishfull thinking. It says that the platoon deploys as one unit OK. and coming from reserves non dedicated transports roll for reserves separately. Arriving from reserves with chimeras at the same time is covered by basic transport & reserve rules.
Seriously Copper, you crack me up.
You are seriously now CLINGING futiley to "in all respects", despite the fact the platoon rules in the FAQ give a more specific case?
Hilariously awful argument, really.
You've lost, you lost on page 1 and still, 7 pages later you have still lost.
Literally nothing you say has any bearing in the real rules, just talos-making-it-up-hammer40k
The faq doesn't address at all how chimeras deploy in DoW. Maybe most players (unknowingly perhaps) agree with you. But it's down to the TOs to judge this, I'll see in ETC and other big tournaments how this ends up.
It gives a more specific case, in that members of the platoon (so, that wouldbe the chimera you choose to purchase as part of the platoons options, then - a point you consistently pretend doesnt exist, as per usual) are a single "unit" for DoW (+any ohter deployment limited mission) - so yes, "in all respects" is a futile argument
Oh, this isnt MY argument, it is yet another attempt by you to ignore wha tthe rules for platoons and their unit entries actually say.
Oh, and I'm a TO. Just thought I'd let you know.
So, whats your next attempt at an "argument" going to be, given you have been comprehensively debunked at each and every turn? Anything else you want to make up while you're here?
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Their stats are listed there, but they are indeed an option on the platoon page - you must keep missing it. Or you're claiming that "lasguns" arent part of a platoon, because while they are listed on the platoon page their stats are elsewhere
In order to take an autocannon you are just given a cost to pay. In the case of chimera it says that you can buy it as a dedicated transport, that means you go to the dedicated transport page (so you leave the platoon page) and follow the rules that say that the transport is separate from the unit in all respects. You can't use that unit as an excuse to include the chimera in the platoon. There must be a rule to do so. Unfortunately for you there isn't one.
I also have to leave pg. 96, the page with the Infantry Platoon info, to purchase Infantry Squads, HWS, SWS, and Conscripts. Are they not part of the Platoon only, and solely, due to not having their options listed on the same page as the Infantry Platoon itself? See how ridiculous that sounds. Similarly to when the BA Codex came out and people were arguing that BA Squads couldn't take DT options not listed only on pg. 90 of the BA codex because that's the only page referenced for DT options.
copper.talos wrote:
Evil Lamp 6 wrote: So are the Chimeras bought for Infantry Squads or PCS, as part of a Platoon, no longer "attached" to the Infantry Squads or PCS that bought them? Seems like breaking a rule of pg. 87 and the BRB...
I am not breaking any rules. You are making new ones.
How so? Need I post the rules listed on pg. 87 of the BRB again to show where GW wrote the word attachment and not me?
copper.talos wrote:This attachment you claim exists
I don't need to claim it exists, the BRB does it for me on pg. 87...
copper.talos wrote: and it's the same attachment a SM squad has with its rhino. IG don't have special rules regarding how dedicated transports interract with their unit.
Actually, with the new FAQ and concerning DoW deployments, I'd say that IG now do. As would just about everyone else in this thread. SM have no FAQ rule to say their deployment works the way IG does concerning DoW and so no they are not able to do what IG can.
copper.talos wrote: You follow the same rules with everybody else. So since this attachment is not good enough for a rhino to deploy as one with the SM squad, then it's not good enough to deploy as one with an infantry squad,
The new IGFAQ says otherwise by my and just about everyone else reading of it.
copper.talos wrote: and definetely not good enough to be made part of the platoon.
Evil Lamp 6 wrote: Do you not like my choice of word of "upgrade"? Perhaps "option" would be a better choice? It still does not invalidate my argument about what the Platoon Composition is or isn't before "upgrades", "options", or whatever are taken. Also, I do not find the discussion of Jokero weapon upgrades and how they don't apply to Chimeras (as they are always a separate unit) relevant to the discussion concerning DoW deployment, IG Infantry Platoons, and Chimeras (which by the FAQ are given explicit permission to deploy as one unit in a DoW type scenario). No one is arguing that Chimeras are not ever, outside of the very specific exception given by the new IGFAQ, a separate unit from the squad that purchased them.
Chimeras are not upgrades\ wargear\characters\options.
Stop right there. I think DT are most certainly options as they are an option that a squad can take; they are not a mandatory choice and if they aren't options, then what the hell are they?
copper.talos wrote:They are transports. Follow transport rules only.
And the FAQ doesn't in no way say that chimeras are part of the platoon.
By implication through referencing how non-DT works under the FAQ, the FAQ does.
copper.talos wrote: It only wishfull thinking. It says that the platoon deploys as one unit OK. and coming from reserves non dedicated transports roll for reserves separately. Arriving from reserves with chimeras at the same time is covered by basic transport & reserve rules.
Lets leave reserves out of this for now since I can't say I've seen any disagreement with how people think that DT and reserves works. This is concerning only DoW type deployments and what IG can or cannot start with on the table in relation to the new FAQ.
If you look in the platoon entry you'll see there is a "composition". There are listed all the units that are part of the platoon. You need a rule/errata to add units there. Nothing of such sort exist.
And finally show me EXACTLY what part of the faq makes you think that the chimera became part of a platoon and I'll prove that it can be done using basic transport & reserve rules. I'll post pg numbers, quotes, the works...
So, when someone points out you get the same answer in both forums, you complain that theyre your mum, now its a dad thing.
I was pointing out that repeating ourselves for the benefit of a poster who has consistently lied, ignored rules, made up strawmen arguments etc is beginning to get a little dull.
Yes, a platoon is a single troops choice consisting of multiple units. These units can be CCS, infantry squads, HWS, SWS, or conscripts.
These units can buy upgrades like more dakka, extra ladz, fancier uniforms, or bigger bosses. They also have the option of buying a dedicated transport.
Dedicated transports are separate units not listed in the units that can make up the platoon. They simply are not part of the platoon because of that.
The commissar comparison is not great because they are not separate units, and therefore do not have any impact on platoon composition. Chimeras, however, are separate units not listed as being able to be part of the platoon, so they are not part of the platoon.
There is nowhere in the rules or FAQ's that say chimeras are part of the platoon that their squads are in. The list of units in the platoon is exclusive, only those listed can claim to be part of the 'Fightin' Meatshields'.
HOWEVER, for deployment in DOW, they are deployed with the platoon because the FAQ implies that with its wording.
So, in summation: NO, not part of the platoon. YES, deploys with platoon in DOW.
I think you lot will argue black is blue forever here, so, as a relative "neutral" noob here, why don't you try to convince me???
I will try to bash holes in everything anybody says, pro or con.
Pick part of the argument and I'll do my best to destroy what you (either camp) say.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The "options" within the Platoon tells you they are part of the platoon structure
Then why when a chimera is listed, in the ccs entry, is it not a part of the ccs "structure?"
copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.
You are mistaken here. The BRB states explicitly that units with Infiltrate and Scout can outflank and can be embarked in their dedicated transport to do so. The Infantry Platoon does not get Infiltrate or Scout, they get Outflank (which is not a USR, its a mission special rule). Only transports and Independent Characters with Outflank could outflank with them. The precedent for this is very clear (see the repeated Saga of the Hunter).
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies.
That is RAW. So he's right in that regard. Dedicated Transports are not part of the ForceOrg chart, but count as whatever Category the attached unit is from.
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Counterargument: Such DT bought for their units' do care which slot they come from as opposed to just the FOC as evidenced by IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance. Why is this so? Becuase by virtue of a squad of IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance, the Storm Troopers themselves have the Scouts USR, which by virtue of the BRB, says they confer to their DT if deployed inside of it, This again matters as the IG Storm Trooper Chimera, and not some random Elite FOC Chimera (either from another IGST Sqd, Ogryn, etc.) has the Scout USR as well. Nor does the DT lose that ability after deployment (admittedly it has no other use after deployment but it does differentiate one Elite FOC Chimera from another as one would have the Scouts USR and another would not) nor when the squad inside disembarks. Just by deploying inside it the IGST give their DT the Scouts USR for the rest of the game.
A special exception is explicitly marked out regarding dedicated transports and the Infiltrate and Scout USR. The IGFAQ makes a similar specific exception with regards to how reservese/outflanking works for the Platoon and non-dedicated transports.
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:It has also been argued that because Chimeras aren't listed in the Infantry Platoon Composition on pg. 96 of the IG Codex that they are never a part of the Platoon. I would like to direct those people to pg. 89 of the IG Codex where it says the following concering the Composition:
IG Codex pg. 89 wrote:Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.
Emphasis mine. So yes, before any upgrades are taken I'll agree that the Platoon doesn't include Chimeras. After upgrades are taken, if the Chimera transport option is taken for any PCS or Infantry Squads, then yes the Platoon does include Chimeras in it.
I brought this up before as a potential problem back on page 6. Its why nosferatu's Commissar argument doesn't hold up unfortunately. The whole of page 89 is about unit composition. The Infantry Platoon is not a unit in its own right. It does not even "count as" a unit during Dawn of War according to RAW (which I think is a very important decision and a conscience choice given Creed's special rules).
That you quoted presents us a problem: Are "dedicated transports" an upgrade? I say yes, but the exact wording on the page may contradict this. It lists 'dedicated transports' separately from 'options', and only 'options' has the key word "upgrade" in its description on that page. I'm not sure. I'd like to see an official ruling from somewhere about that.
SeattleDV8 wrote:BRBpg. 87
Sometimes a single choice on the force organisation chart will allow you to select more than one unit.
and same page Dedicated Transports
....as they are attached to the unit they are bought for.
So we need to define the "attach" mechanic in the context of the rules.
cgmckenzie wrote:Yes, a platoon is a single troops choice consisting of multiple units. These units can be CCS, infantry squads, HWS, SWS, or conscripts.
These units can buy upgrades like more dakka, extra ladz, fancier uniforms, or bigger bosses. They also have the option of buying a dedicated transport.
Dedicated transports are separate units not listed in the units that can make up the platoon. They simply are not part of the platoon because of that.
The commissar comparison is not great because they are not separate units, and therefore do not have any impact on platoon composition. Chimeras, however, are separate units not listed as being able to be part of the platoon, so they are not part of the platoon.
There is nowhere in the rules or FAQ's that say chimeras are part of the platoon that their squads are in. The list of units in the platoon is exclusive, only those listed can claim to be part of the 'Fightin' Meatshields'.
HOWEVER, for deployment in DOW, they are deployed with the platoon because the FAQ implies that with its wording.
So, in summation: NO, not part of the platoon. YES, deploys with platoon in DOW.
-cgmckenzie
I really find it interesting that its the DoW deployment and not the Outflanking that has brought this argument up. People have been Outflanking with Al'Rahem essentially since the Codex came out. It has even been allowed at 'Ard Boyz and other tournaments. Yet its not possible if your argument is true (which I'm not 100% convinced it is).
The options allow the infantry squad or PCS to buy a dedicated transport. The Chimeras are separate units not included in the platoon composition on page 96. The ruleset, being permissive and all, does not have a rule/FAQ/errata that allows you to add the chimera to the platoon. The PCS is allowed in the wider structure because it's specifically in the list of units in it, the chimera is not.
But, again, this has no bearing on gameplay: the FAQ allows them to come in on DOW and from reserves as if they were part of it, they just aren't.
Dedicated transports "sit outside" the foc structure (p87).
They don't "count as" part of a slot, the parent unit does that entirely, they are entirely seperate units (p92).
They come from the same foc "category" as the unit that buys them (p87).
They are "attached" to the unit they are bought for (p87).
This does not mean anything at all, unless the unit is embarked and that other units cannot embark at deployment, or in reserve.
It serves no other purpose.
To claim that a muc has any rule whatsoever to defeat these rules is nonsense.
If it did, a ccs + chimera is a muc, where the transport is outside the foc, would not be prohibited to both deploy in dow.
It clearly is.
= muc have no inbuilt immunity from deployment restrictions.
Al Rehems platoon must outflank.
It has been claimed, that they don't do this, in the same way as others, as the rules deal with scouts and infiltraitors.
What rules do you use then?
I would have thought that you would use the "outflank rules" to outflank.
A unit may outflank with its dedicated transport, al rehems units must.
In order for a dedicated transport to outflank, it must have a unit embarked.
If you choose not to have the unit embarked, the transport cannot outflank.
This ^ works both ways, you see.
Interesting, I was wrong about the Outflanking. I was too fixated on the first sentence of the Outflank rules on page 94. The later sentences about dedicated transports doesn't make this distinction in the way its worded. The phrase "Note, such units" may be construed to mean only the units with scout and infiltrate USR, but that doesn't seem right.
For DoW, I still think you should be able to put the Chimeras on the table. cgmckenzie brings up an interesting point, more clearly than copper.talos did...
nosferatu1001 wrote:The "options" within the Platoon tells you they are part of the platoon structure
Then why when a chimera is listed, in the ccs entry, is it not a part of the ccs "structure?"
Because the platoon structure is specifically mentioned as being 'before upgrades', and a Chimera is an upgrade (in the sense that it is an optional thing which adds value to the unit).
cowmonaut wrote:The phrase "Note, such units" may be construed to mean only the units with scout and infiltrate USR, but that doesn't seem right.
Imo, "such units" refers to units that outflank, rather than the reason behind them being able to do so.
cgmckenzie wrote:But, again, this has no bearing on gameplay: the FAQ allows them to come in on DOW and from reserves as if they were part of it, they just aren't.
I have some sympathy for this, it may be what the faq is trying to say, but I'm not convinced it does.
Conjecture on this is futile, however, as are squeals of it being broken etc.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Because the platoon structure is specifically mentioned as being 'before upgrades'
It isn't an upgrade, it is a dedicated transport. It seems like splitting hairs but the difference does matter. Upgrades do not add units to the game, they change units into better forms of themselves.
I am certainly leaning toward the idea that a transport is not an upgrade to the unit, despite it being "optional!!!"
Also, if the options section contains "all" of the upgrades available, that sounds convincing.
Has anyone ever seen al rehem and his platoon, outflank, when chimeras have come along, that were empty?
cgmckenzie wrote: Upgrades do not add units to the game
Prove it.
copper.talos wrote:It's in codex IGpg 89 under "unit composition".
A bit lower under "options" it says that upgrades in units are those listed under the "options" entry
And just above that it says that the Transports "the unit may take" are listed even though they have their own unit entry, as per the transport rules.
Prove it? Ok, it is a dedicated transport, a unit in its own right, not an upgrade to an existing unit. Having the PCS is a prerequisite to buying a chimera, but that does not make it an upgrade. It allow you to buy the chimera.
You are required to have 1 techmarine for every x servitors in the SM codex, but that doesn't make the servitors an upgrade for the TM, it just makes him the prerequisite for buying servitors.
The unit composition definition you are lauding is excluding things like additional conscripts, HWT, and other upgrades that change the composition of the unit but the platoon has all that mucking about accounted for in the 2-5 infantry squad part of the composition.
So what you are saying is that units that have upgrade that create units are called out already?
Not that it is impossible?
Editing to add: Or do you not see paying to add another unit to the platoon as useful, and thus an upgrade? It is definitively an option(al part of the platoon).
CGM - you are positing that an upgrade cannot add units to the game
This is immediately false - Thawn is an upgrade to a terminator squad that, if he dies and resurrects, is a new unit.
Thus, an upgrade HAS added a new unit to the game - not massively directly, but given you have no rules to back up your position this is all thats needed at the moment.
I am not really sure what you are trying to say in that last post there, kirsanth.
Basically, you have no rules allowing for the chimera to alter the composition of the platoon outside of the limitations you are given on pg 96. Chimeras are not on the list of units in the platoon, so they are not. There are no rules explicitly allowing you to add them to the platoon, so you cannot.
Pg 89 "Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before upgrades are taken."
An infantry platoon isn't a unit, so this rule isn't applicable to the infantry platoon. "1 Platoon Command Squad" isn't a type of model, so this doesn't even meet the description of the 'unit composition'.
[reposted from the poll thread. definitely belongs here.]
OP asks, "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"
I have been reading the earlier thread (up to 8 pages as I write this) as well as this new poll with some interest. I play mech IG, not exclusively, but often. IG is also a common opponent army at my FLGS, with several active players. I am sure this issue will come up next week at our tournament.
Other than some brief outbursts of immaturity, it has been a great debate. I do not believe either position has a conclusive supporting argument. (Epistemological definition of conclusive evidence guarantees the truth of the position being supported) People often say something is conclusive when they really mean convincing or persuasive.
I find the argument in favor of the chimera being part of the infantry platoon to be the more persuasive case.
This is definitely a change from how the situation was previously played. The change is due to the new language in the IG "faq". It should be noted that this change is not in the faq section of the "faq", but the errata section. "The errata [section] corrects any mistakes in the codex." This is because what people, myself included, commonly call the "faq" could be more accurately a codex update.
We all want to know what is permitted under the DoW rules of deployment for an IG platoon with one or more dedicated transports (chimera) selected for its PCS and/or Infantry squads. IMO, the crucial point has been correctly identified by the poll question. "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"
sigh.. have to go to dentist. will be back and edit in more
edit: back. OK, here we go...
Let's start by quoting some rules and defining some terms/rules
Infantry platoon - my hard copy of the IG codex is from July 2009. On page 96, it says, "Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-2 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."
Nifty, sounds like a nice way to pack a lot of blob firepower happiness into one troops choice on the force org chart or to drop on the board all at once.
Platoon Command Squad (PCS) and Infantry Squad (PIS) - their entries on pages 96 and 97 respectively, go on to say "Transport: The squad may take a Chimera as dedicated transport (see page 99 for points cost)."
Nifty, my PCSs and PISs can buy dedicated transports (DT). So far so good. What all is this good for other than trying to squeeze 17000 points of IG into the standard force org chart? (Trust me, it's not pretty, but you can do it.) I'm not sure, maybe something will come up. I'll wait and see....
I should note at this point that I started playing 40k about 18 months ago and only ever learned 5th ed rules. I am not confusing this stuff with some previous edition or codex, and I do have some experience playing with and against IG platoons. My experience is far from perfect, just as I am far from infallible. 40k is a game that includes many simple rules that can have non-obvious and complex interactions. Part of what I love about the game is the continued exploration of and subtle changes to these odd rules interactions. Until last week, if you asked me what infantry platoons were good for I would have said squeezing points into the force org and bringing lots of guys in from reserves simultaneously. If I played dawn of war, the most I would drop onto the table before turn 1 would be 5 PISs (combined into one unit, probably with a commissar), a PCS and a Company Command Squad (CCS). No chimeras, no Heavy Weapons Squads (HWS), no etc else. In retrospect, I think I and many at my shop were playing that wrong, but I'll get to that in a second.
I checked my old copy of the Codex: Imperial Guard FAQ ( m1490293a_FAQ_ImperialGuard_2009.pdf) It's dated August 2009. I find no mention of the Infantry Platoon in relation to Dawn of War, deployment, reserves or outflanking. If anyone has a copy of an IGFAQ pdf released after this but before the Jan 2012 one, I would be very interested in hearing if there is any mention of these topics. That brings us to the current debate, which began (I believe) when the Jan 2012 FAQs dropped and some of us read this...
WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: IMPERIAL GUARD Official Update Version 1.1 (m2170011a_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf) says, "Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
The document in question started off by saying "Although we strive to ensure that our codexes are perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in. In addition, we occasionally print new versions of our rules, which require amendments to be made in older versions of our codexes. When such issues arise, we feel that it is important to deal with them as promptly as we can, and we therefore produce regular updates for all of our codexes. When changes are made, the version number will be updated, and any changes from the previous version will be highlighted in Magenta. Where a version number has a letter, E.g. 1.1a, this means it has had a local update, only in that language, to clarify a translation issue or other minor correction. Each update is split into three sections: Errata, Amendments, and ‘Frequently Asked Questions’. The Errata corrects any mistakes in the codex, while the Amendments bring the codex up to date with the latest version of the rules. The Frequently Asked Questions (or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions about the rules. Although you can mark corrections directly in your codex, this is by no means necessary – just keep a copy of the update with your codex.
The fact that this document is numbered 1.1 and that the boilerplate warning label at the beginning is ALSO in magenta, makes me strongly suspect that this is the first time this language was included in the IGFAQ and that this was likely the 1st update of the IGFAQ since August 2009. But, back to our debate starting text. I will divide it into 3 parts.
“[A] Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. [B] In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. [C] Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
A and B seem to be a restatement of the original codex text with a slight twist. Instead of the "Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying" we now have "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed." Interesting. Muddy, but interesting. C seems to be genuinely new information. I have seen this issue come up for PCSs and PISs embarked on reserved Vendettas. I like and appreciate the clarification that C brings to that situation. I would have really, really appreciated it being a separate FAQ entry from the one it was lumped in with, because lumped in with the words "In addition" in the preceding sentence has caused many people, myself included, some major confusion. Back to A and B.
This appears to be a broadening clarification of the original codex entry. Now when I play dawn of war, I can drop my whole platoon on the table as one troops choice, HWS and all. In retrospect, I believe that was RAI all along and that I was playing incorrectly. Oh well, I am more concerned with getting it correct now than defending any previous mistakes I might have made. I am perfectly willing to admit that I make mistakes and do things wrong. I would prefer to learn about it and play it right in the future.
But what about those pesky chimeras? What do the rules have to say about them?
page 99 IG codex "Many Imperial Guard units have the option of selecting a dedicated transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any force organizational chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units. See the Vehicles section of the Warhammer 40000 rulebook for details of how transport vehicles operate." o....k.....
The BRB has quite a lot to say about vehicles. The 2 passages I found most relevant were...
page 67 BRB "DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal and occupy a force organization chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty Space Marine Land Raider).
The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicles entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example)."
and
page 87 BRB "Dedicated transports Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organization category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops. but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) It counts as Elite."
page 93 BRB Dawn of War says a player "can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table"
They even kindly give an example that includes dedicated transports... "Example: player A wins the roIl-off and deploys an infantry unit from his Troops and one monstrous creature from his HQ, in his half of the table. He also declares that a second infantry unit from his Troops will use its Infiltrate ability In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops. already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an independent character from his HO, joining the unit embarked in the transport. Finally, player deploys his infiltrating unit."
Nifty. Now what's it all mean in the following situation? Dawn of War deployment, a player has a CCS w/ Chimera, a Vet squad with Chimera, and 2 Infantry platoons - one with the minimum 2 PISs w/ Chimera and the PCSs with Chimera, and the other Infantry Platoon super full with a conscripts blob, 5 PISs (either together or separate), 5 HWS 1 PCS and the attached/associated 6 chimeras. What is the most models that player can deploy before turn 1?
A week ago I would have said the CCS, not it's Chimera, the small Infantry platoon, as a PCS and a 20 man blob, but not their 3 chimeras. An infantry platoon HAS to deploy together, but many larger ones could not deploy in DOW before the 1st turn due the deployment constraints. The new IG Codex update has changed (or at the least, clarified) that. What about the chimeras?
I have gone round in circles on this. I think the Al'rahem example is instructive, but not a conclusive precedent. I think the distinction between "transport" and "unit upgrade" is a red herring. The Chimera is clearly not the same unit as the PCS or the PIS, but is it in the same platoon? I think that current RAW, the chimeras are separate from the platoon. I think the RAI, the Al'rahem example, and the nebulous nature of the infantry platoon entry in general and the language of the new FAQ entry in particular STRONGLY suggests that the chimeras are part of the platoon, but in the spirit of RAW and tournament consistency, I don't think they should be part of the initial deployment.
Since I am not a psychic, I can only make a conclusive case for RAW, not RAI. I would love clarification of this issue by GW, but I think it unlikely in the near future. Until then, you are only allowed to do in the game what you are allowed to do in the game. Just because you cannot show me a rule that says I cannot drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing, does not mean I can drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing. I would have to show show you a rule that says I can. Hence, I cannot. I think there is a STRONG argument for the chimeras to be part of the platoon. I cannot in good faith it is clear and without fluff inference on my part.
I will bounce it around my shop, but unless someone can cite me a rule I have missed, a faq entry that sheds more light, a GW battle rep that exemplifies the situation, etc. I will have to say no chimeras as part of the infantry platoon.
foolishmortal wrote:[reposted from the poll thread. definitely belongs here.]
OP asks, "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"
I have been reading the earlier thread (up to 8 pages as I write this) as well as this new poll with some interest. I play mech IG, not exclusively, but often. IG is also a common opponent army at my FLGS, with several active players. I am sure this issue will come up next week at our tournament.
Other than some brief outbursts of immaturity, it has been a great debate. I do not believe either position has a conclusive supporting argument. (Epistemological definition of conclusive evidence guarantees the truth of the position being supported) People often say something is conclusive when they really mean convincing or persuasive,...
However people here may disagree with you, I would say that this is a textbook example of how someone should present their argument in YMDC. Oh, and I agree with your assessment .
Man this is a complex issue. Really though I think we're narrowing down the cinch of it.
MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.
Page 92, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook
The Infantry Platoon entry on Page 96 of Codex: Imperial Guard is a 'Multiple Unit Choice'. The BRB gives a specific example of dedicated transports, but this rule equally applies to the Infantry Squad, Command Squad, and other Squads found under the Infantry Platoon entry.
The dedicated transports are purchased as part of a single choice: The Infantry Platoon. Hence, they are part of the Infantry Platoon.
The one compelling argument against this I've seen was that Page 96 of the IG Codex lists specific army list entries that make up the composition of the Infantry Platoon. I argue that the Multiple Unit Choice rule on Page 92 of the BRB still applies. The Infantry Squad when it takes a dedicated transport would be a Multiple Unit Choice, just like the Infantry Platoon is.
So really the Infantry Platoon entry is a Multiple Unit Choice containing Multiple Unit Choice selections. In my opinion anyways. I could be mistaken. But I need to see a damned good explanation as to the reasoning behind why it wouldn't be.
The Infantry Platoon is a MUC. Which is why, previously, you could only deploy a part of it in DoW. Now, however, the whole platoon counts as a single Troop unit for the purpose of deployment.
I'm trying to figure out how something can be attached to a squad but not be part of the platoon?
page 87 BRB "Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for."
Sure seems to me that if they're attached to the Infantry Squad or PCS that they were bought for, then they're certainly part of the platoon.
Happyjew wrote:The Infantry Platoon is a MUC. Which is why, previously, you could only deploy a part of it in DoW. Now, however, the whole platoon counts as a single Troop unit for the purpose of deployment.
This is not true. The Platoon does not "counts as". The wording of the Errata states an Infantry Platoon may be deployed in place of a unit. It does not "count as". This is kind of an important if subtle distinction. If it was worded the way you are misinterpreting it, Creed would be able to give the Platoon Scout in DOW missions. RAW, this is not possible.
It also has no bearing on the MUC rule, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
cgmckenzie wrote:Pg 89 "Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before upgrades are taken."
Read the whole post. Because it is not a unit, the definition of unit composition does not apply to it.
Units are pcs, he's, etc but the platoon is a horse of a different color. Because that unit comp. rule does not apply, the only units that are in the platoon are those that are on the pg 96 description.
-cgmckenzie
BTW, I am on,my phone now, so shorthand and page numbers might be askew.
Editing to add: I do read all of the posts. I just quote parts I respond to. The fact that it is not a unit is kind of the point. The fact that the platoon lists some of the units that can compose it and that the list for creating a platoon includes transport options for the platoon are related.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cgmckenzie wrote:BTW, I am on,my phone now, so shorthand and page numbers might be askew.
cgmckenzie wrote:
Units are pcs, he's, etc but the platoon is a horse of a different color. Because that unit comp. rule does not apply, the only units that are in the platoon are those that are on the pg 96 description.
The entries listed as part of the composition of the platoon are Multiple Unit Choice selections when you take a dedicated transport according to the BRB. So the transports are part of the platoon.
I feel this discussion is at an impass. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the latest thinking on the two sides is as follows.
Q: do DT chimeras deploy as part of an infantry platoon in DoW deployment (or any deployment that limits initial units by Force Org catagory?
A1: Yes. The chimeras are "attached" to their respective squads and thus the platoon in general, per p87 BRB. This is the best argument I see for the PRO position right now. The idea of DTs as unit upgrades had some merit, but I think we have now seen that an Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit, thus that interpretation becomes less convincing. Honestly, the closest thing I see to an Infantry Platoon is an Apocalypse formation. I may check there next for relevant rulings.
A2: No. The chimeras are associated to the the infantry platoon by their DT status, but this does not make them part of the platoon. Fluff-based arguments aside, I have not seen a solid, RAW / FAQ reason for them to be. I agree that it feels like they should be, but that is not a good enough reason.
If there was a continuum of persuasion, it might look something like this.
Starting off with an open mind at no opinion. Based on the arguments presented, your position drifts left or right. Left side represents PRO chimeras as part of IP. Right side represents AGAINST chimeras as part of IP.
As I see it, there are 4 opinionated zones, not 2.
"A" believes the RAI and RAW conclusively have chimeras as part of the IP.
"B" believes that chimeras are part of the the IP RAW, but not RAI are unclear. They favor the inclusive choice by default.
"C" believes that chimeras are part of the the IP RAI, but not RAW. They favor the non-permissive choice by default.
"D" believes that chimeras are conclusively not part of the IP both RAW and RAI.
RAW vs RAI is an old argument that rarely ends well. I think the crux of the problem is the nebulous nature of the Infantry Platoon in general.
I find myself currently at C, but am willing to hear new arguments, or even old ones polished up and clarified.
foolishmortal wrote:
A1: Yes. The chimeras are "attached" to their respective squads and thus the platoon in general, per p87 BRB. This is the best argument I see for the PRO position right now. The idea of DTs as unit upgrades had some merit, but I think we have now seen that an Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit, thus that interpretation becomes less convincing. Honestly, the closest thing I see to an Infantry Platoon is an Apocalypse formation. I may check there next for relevant rulings.
Actually, I think the Multiple Unit Choices rule on Page 94 of the BRB is the most compelling argument for this being true. Also, in 5E Apocalypse is a supplement. Its not going to affect non-Apocalypse games so the formations there are irrelevant.
foolishmortal wrote:
A2: No. The chimeras are associated to the the infantry platoon by their DT status, but this does not make them part of the platoon. Fluff-based arguments aside, I have not seen a solid, RAW / FAQ reason for them to be. I agree that it feels like they should be, but that is not a good enough reason.
Again, the Multiple Unit Choices rule I quoted earlier in this thread. I'm not seeing the nay-sayers address this rule directly yet. It seems to be getting ignored.
So to reiterate, in case I didn't explain it clearly before:
1. Infantry Platoons are a Multiple Unit Choice as per the BRB.
2. Any army list entry which takes a Dedicated Transport is a Multiple Unit Choice, as per the BRB.
3. Infantry Platoons have a composition listing several army list entries.
4. Two of these entries, the Command Squad and Infantry Squad, are Multiple Unit Choices when they take Chimeras.
5. Per the BRB, Multiple Unit Choices are bought as a single choice.
6. For Imperial Guard, the Infantry Platoon is their 'single choice'.
Thus, Chimeras taken as dedicated transports for Command Squads and Infantry Squads are part of the Infantry Platoon choice when you build your list. The Platoon in those cases is a Multiple Unit Choice made up of Multiple Unit Choices.
Of course this has been answered before. 3 times by me I think. To keep it short, the last sentence of the multiple unit choice is:
"Apart from being bought as a single choice, this units operate and count as separate unit in all respects".
There you go. The multiple unit choice rule is utilised when you buy units and only then. After that it has no effect in game at all.
copper.talos wrote:Can a SM squad deploy as 1 unit with his attached rhino? No. Why not then? Does the platoon mention units and their attached transports? Are there rules that explain in a platoon how units attached to transports interract differently from the rules in BRB ?
Or should you focus on the fact that they are completely separate units in all respects as emphasised in multiple unit choices?
I'd say focus on getting over the fact you aren't in the majority of opinion?
You make great arguements, but are just wrong. and i feel you've also been proven wrong numerous times.
kirsanth wrote:Leaving out the fact that IG (platoons) can deploy multiple units in the place of a single unit.
Platoons deploy multiple units, but only those units that are defined in the platoon composition.
@alarmingrick it should be easy then to post a fewe rules. Kirsanth has tried already.
Not sure if you're familiar with an old American saying:
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."
You've been shown numerous times how your arguement was incorrect by much smarter
folks than myself. Noone can make you believe the facts presented to you.
@ kirsanth Nope, the platoon page says you can buy a chimera as a dedicated transport. That means you must follow dedicated transport rules. None of this rules say that transports become part of the unit that bought it. They operate and count as different units in all respects.
It's not arbitrary. There is a legitiamate association / attachment between a PIS and its DT. p87 BRB
There is also a legitiamte association / attachment between a IP and a PIS. p92 BRB, p96 IGC.
The question that needs more examination is "is this association / attachment a transitive property?
Ven diagram? Group theory? Org chart? I could paint this picture a number of different ways. And because I COULD interpret it a number of different ways, if its not clear, I should not consider it transitive. 40k is a permissive rules system. Not an exclusive one. (The rules are primarily based on telling you what you can do, not what you can't)
@copper, I beg you, either stop arguing or stop taking it personally.
I have responded to the inclusive MUC argument above. Please let me know if I need to clarify.
I actually do see the MUC argument as persuasive, just not conclusive. IMO it's a variant of specific > general with “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed" > "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects"
Yep, theres beating a dead horse and there's bringing up "but but but they're different units!!!!!!", as if that is at all relevant to a discussion of a Platoon which is ALWAYS composed of multiple units.
Copper has been proven wrong at every. single. turn, over the last now 10 pages.
Luckily the vast majority of people will be playing the correct way, and i'll communicate with other UKTOs about this.
copper.talos wrote:Of course this has been answered before. 3 times by me I think. To keep it short, the last sentence of the multiple unit choice is:
"Apart from being bought as a single choice, this units operate and count as separate unit in all respects".
There you go. The multiple unit choice rule is utilised when you buy units and only then. After that it has no effect in game at all.
By your definition then, Infantry Squads aren't part of the platoon either. After all, they are completely separate units in all respects.
You seem to be missing the point here copper.talos: What is the Imperial Guard choice from the army list?
The answer is: The Infantry Platoon. That is what the Imperial Guard player is selecting for his Troop Choice. You can't take the Chimera without the Platoon, so its part of the Platoon choice, which means it gets the benefit.
The IP is the parent. The PIS is the child. The PIS marries the DT. The IP and the DT are now family.
OR
The IP is the parent. The PIS is the child. The PIS befriends the DT. The IP and the DT are not necessarily friends.
edit: Personally, I think the chimera is part of the platoon (RAI) but that I have yet to see a conclusive RAW argument for it.
I think people's interpretations are being clouded by the 3rd sentence in the new IGFAQ.
WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: IMPERIAL GUARD Official Update Version 1.1 (m2170011a_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf) says, "Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
I see this as referring to Vendetta outflanking shenanigans. Maybe I am letting my personal experiences narrow my field of view.
Multiple things in this thread are making me shake my head. (And yes I read it all lol)
As long as a unit is embarked it confers abilities and creates a single roll if the transport is "dedicated".
If your platoon has chimeras, and Al', you can outflank with them as long as you are embarked in the transports. Page 94 BRB covers this.
As for deployment, why would they have the statement, "The only limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (Plus any IC)." on page 67 if you could NOT in fact deploy them together?
1. So the Rule states, IF Unit is in DT it purchased and embarked in, THEN it may be deployed.
2. The outflank and scout rules in the BRB gives a precedence that DT's are treated as one unit if the unit is embarked inside them.
3. Under "TRANSPORT" in the platoon section it states they may take a dedicated transport. Page 97, left side half way down. It's an upgrade for the unit, it's part of the unit, it's not a Valkyrie or land raider.
NO WHERE does it say that dedicated transports are rolled for separately UNLESS the unit is not embarked in them.
How has this thread reached 9 pages?
Any unit that is part of Al's unit MUST outflank, it gives you zero choice in the matter. Independent characters are units that may join other units before deployment. Al is NOT conferring the special outflank ability onto every model in his squad, he is FORCING his platoon to outflank by special rule. You have zero choice, if you are in Al's unit, you are outflanking.
This has reached 10 pages because of the other half of the argument that you didn't cover: deployment during Dawn of War. The minority (according to the poll in the other thread) is stating that the Chimeras taken as dedicated transports are not part of the Infantry Platoon. If they aren't part of the Infantry Platoon, they don't benefit from the Imperial Guard Eratta update that allows you to put a whole Platoon on the table in place of one unit of troops. Transports themselves are "units of troops" so you can't have all of them on the table then.
The majority (again,according to the poll in the other thread) disagrees with this. Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not, even though his interpretation would mean Infantry Squads are not part of the Platoon they were purchased for...
sfshilo wrote:
As long as a unit is embarked it confers abilities and creates a single roll if the transport is "dedicated".
If your platoon has chimeras, and Al', you can outflank with them as long as you are embarked in the transports. Page 94 BRB covers this.
Only if they are part of the platoon (which I agree they are). Otherwise, we have to note that per the Outflank rules, Al's Outflank does NOT confer to dedicated transports, only outflank provided by the parent unit having Infiltrate or Scout is conferred to DTs.
cowmonaut wrote:The majority (again,according to the poll in the other thread) disagrees with this. Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not, even though his interpretation would mean Infantry Squads are not part of the Platoon they were purchased for...
I am not that person, and I also disagree. Incidently, I voted Yes in that poll, but as I said, my opinion isn't nearly as important as RAW. I have yet to see a conclusive or even very strong argument that makes DT chimeras part of the IP. The MUC with MUCs argument is not bad. I do like it and think it lends weight to the the PRO position. I do not find it conclusive or overwhelmingly compelling on it's own or with any combination of the previous arguments.
cowmonaut wrote:Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not, even though his interpretation would mean Infantry Squads are not part of the Platoon they were purchased for...
You got it all wrong. Platoon has a rule that lets you deploy all the units mentioned in its composition entry as one unit, even in DoW. The multiple unit choice rule has nothing to do with it. Those infantry squads are allowed to be in the platoons composition, so they benefit from its rules. The chimera is not mentioned in the platoons composition. It's simply not included. That's why a chimera is different to an infantry squad regarding platoons and that's why you need a concrete ruling to allow a chimera to be part of a platoon.
Change the name of infantry platoon in the FAQ to another multiple choice unit.
"Each Tactical Squad is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed."
So we know that a tactical squad is up to 2 combat squad units. The tactical squad entry allows you to buy a Rhino or a Razorback, but the Rhino or Razorback is not a tactical squad member.
So we know that an infantry platoon is up to 17(?) infantry units. 6 of the infantry units allow you to buy a Chimera, but the Chimera is not an infantry platoon member.
This seems related to whether an empty chimera bought for Al'Raheem must outflank. "Any unit that is part of Al'Raheem's infantry platoon must outflank." Is the chimera part of Al'Raheem's infantry platoon? Or is the chimera attached to an infantry squad, while the infantry squad is part of Al'Raheem's infantry platoon. 'Attached to' and 'part of' are not exactly the same thing to me.
A ring is attached to my finger. My finger is part of my body. Is the ring part of my body?
cgmckenzie wrote:Does the MUC make the dt part of the unit or simply treat it as such?
Neither.
A platoon is a muc, each component unit is a seperate unit (blobs etc notwithstanding).
Any unit at all, that takes a dedicated transport, is a muc, they are still seperate units.
A unit that purchases a dedicated transport is attached to it.
The "yes" argument seeks to try to use this attachment into a true tieing together of these different elements in the platoon structure.
The "no" argument seeks to try to sever this link.
Simplistic resume!!!
The thing that irks me about the "yes" argument is, I think a possibly unconscious attempt at taking the double standard for ig platoons, in dow deployment, from the faq and imposing it on a units "attachment" to its transport.
So, if a platoon unit purchases a transport, because a unit is part of a muc, so must the transport.
The faq does not say this, nor does the rulebook. Any muc could claim the same treatment by this logic, but it demonstrably can't.
Muc's simply do not have a different set of rules anywhere in regard to their transports.
Thus the transports are part of the platoon argument.
As to that, I would also say no, they aren't.
The dt is not attached to the platoon, it is attached (dedicated) to its unit, the unit is part of the platoon.
Note, that when I say "attached" here, it is meant in the same way as the book uses it.
Ie, they are seperate in all regards and so, quite clearly, one is not a part of the other.
cowmonaut wrote:Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not,
Muc, for yes, part of a platoon, is in tatters, imo.
So, the MuC allows for 2+ units to be selected for a single slot?
Ok, I guess that makes sense, but I am still surprised that I have made it through almost all of 5th without ever hearing about these MuC things.
But, if I am understanding it properly, the MuC still has nothing to do with this because dedicated transports shouldn't fall under their spell; DT has their own set of rules about FoC.
There's not a lot of MUC examples, but there are probably more than we think. Other than IPs and DTs, the only one I run into regularly is the Ravenwing Attack Squadron for the DA.
It's a group of Bikes, an Attack Bike, and a Land Speeder that all together counts as one Fast Attack choice. You deploy it all at the same time, but not necessarily in coherency, and it acts as separate units for the rest of the game. It doesn't help us much with our discussion because not of its options include DT. Maybe someone else knows annother MUC that does?
cgmckenzie wrote:So, the MuC allows for 2+ units to be selected for a single slot?
Situationally.
Lets say I have a vet squad in a chimera and attach a lone ic to them, this is 1+1 troops and 1 hq.
That's it. I can't deploy anything else.
The vets + chimera are a muc.
Before the faq, you could only have deployed say for eg, 2 squads and a comp command sec. The same 1+1+1.
It is a fact, that the com sec + squads are an muc, they always have been.
This in no-way gives them alternate rules in regard to their transports.
cgmckenzie wrote:But, if I am understanding it properly, the MuC still has nothing to do with this because dedicated transports shouldn't fall under their spell; DT has their own set of rules about FoC.
They do and yet they don't.
A "normal" unit, will be transformed into a muc by selecting a transport.
This means the unit is attached to the transport and vice versa.
Being attached in this manner, means the transport is unique to that unit, not any other formation there may be.
Even so, they are seperate units, the infantry is not compelled to be embarked upon their transport.
Attachment = determining the foc category of the vehicle and preventing other units from deploying in the vehicle. That's it.
A company command section, is attached to its chim in exactly the same manner as a platoon squad is attached to theirs. There is no-difference. There are no different rules here.
Dow is governed by the deployment of units, not foc's and we are specifically told that a dedicated transport is a 100% used up unit slot for this purpose.
This is despite the vehicle being attached to the unit. Hence, attached becomes a non-issue in this regard.
Again, back to the comp comm sec.
Its about units, not foc and attachment is unimportant.
You cannot deploy it with a chimera, as that is 2 hq units.
The faq gives you permission to deploy a platoon as if it were 1 unit.
So, no-matter how many units make up the platoon, they get placed and "eat" 1 troops unit slot.
When it comes to placing a single chimera down, the rules for dedicated transports, demand that this is an independent troops unit slot.
A full sized platoon + 1 single chimera = 2 troops slots gone
foolishmortal wrote:There's not a lot of MUC examples, but there are probably more than we think.
But there are tons of them.
Any unit with a dedicated transport = muc!!!
As has been demonstrated, being an muc gives you no different options concerning transports.
foolishmortal wrote:There's not a lot of MUC examples, but there are probably more than we think.
But there are tons of them.
Any unit with a dedicated transport = muc!!!
As has been demonstrated, being an muc gives you no different options concerning transports.
I should have been more specific. There are not a lot of MUCs that are not just MUCs for list construction / force org purposes but for deployment purposes as well. The Ravenwing Attack Squad and the Infantry Platoon are the only two I can think of currently. How do SM combat squads work in DoW? Can I split two TAC squads into four 5-man groups as my 2 Troops choices?
GW has just reversed that as well in the latest round of FAQ updates.
Multiple Unit Choices has been a fundamental and important rule throughout 5th edition, and was always nice and clear. Every codex has entries which allow you to select multiple units using a single Force Org slot, but those units are always treated as being separate units. Whether we're talking about 2 or 3 Sanguinary Priests bought for a single Elite slot in Blood Angels, an IG Platoon consisting of a Platoon Command Section and two Infantry Squads, or just a Tactical Marine squad and their Rhino.
This has always been nice and clear and simple, and Dawn of War has also recognized this distinction, as the Dawn of War deployment specifically uses a squad of IG and their Chimera as the EXAMPLE of two Troops units, filling the allowed two Troops units which may be deployed in DoW.
Now in the latest round of FAQsGW has fundamentally altered this understanding. They now allow a Platoon of IG to deploy as if they were actually one unit. And they allow a Combat-Squadded unit of SM to deploy as if they were one unit. Each of these is an explicit FAQ ruling in their respective new FAQs. This is a substantial change to the way Dawn of War works, and a significant boost to those codices.
Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat
Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat
squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,
two different locations? (p51)
A: Yes.
Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with
the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be
deployed in different locations? In addition, does this
still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.
I did not see an entry for a single TAC squad split into combat squads counting as a single troops choice for DoW. The 2nd Q/A is very interesting though, and would be relevant to DoW.
It's that second FAQ you quoted. "Does this still only count as a single deployment". That only matters in DoW. The question has no other meaning in the game.
EDIT: You know what? I take that back. If both sides have Infiltrating units, you alternate placement of them. Okay, so SM DO NOT get to break DoW restrictions using Combat Squads. They're just saying that if you Infiltrate and Combat Squad, you infiltrate both halves at once for purposes of alternating units with your opponent. Okay, nice; that makes sense.
Mannahnin wrote:It's that second FAQ you quoted. "Does this still only count as a single deployment". That only matters in DoW. The question has no other meaning in the game.
EDIT: You know what? I take that back. If both sides have Infiltrating units, you alternate placement of them. Okay, so SM DO NOT get to break DoW restrictions using Combat Squads. They're just saying that if you Infiltrate and Combat Squad, you infiltrate both halves at once for purposes of alternating units with your opponent. Okay, nice; that makes sense.
Single deployment does not equal 'single unit'. So Marines combat quads each still count as a separate unit in DoW deployments.
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