Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way. Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though
Isn't there supposed to be a new set of FAQs mid August or so? The 1.0 FAQs seem like rules updates, while the likely 1.1 may see some balance changes with things like more specific weapon stats.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Mathew Ward said there would be updates before the end of the UK summer. Guess that means they are mostly done.
quilava1 wrote:Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way. Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though
Down a rung? Most people haven't even played a game yet with/versus them. Exactly how many afternoons did termies ruin for you since June 30th? As for them being broken, at least it meshes a bit better with the fluff for them not to fear every guardsmen with a battery attached to his sword. I don't see how they could fix this with an FAQ unless they're planning on revamping the whole AP system less than 6 weeks after its debut.
Tronbot2600 wrote:oh good, I'm always glad when armies aren't playable right out of the codex...oh wait.
On the other hand... It does make some kind of twisted sense. Release a minimalist, generic FAQ for each army to get them by, then after a couple of months, after working out what other things you've missed, release more specific ones that deal with specific issues like this.
And if someone is daft enough to go out and by 6 Night Scythes before you give most armies flakk missiles, then it's extra pennies in the bank and the business people are pleased.
:/ unless a lot of armies are getting AP2 melee, I'm kind of annoyed. I thought there was a pretty good balance made from the strongest weapons striking last.
Don't DE have access to power axes, like most other armies? Sure, DE are fragile, but so are a lot of armies, and with lower WS.
There are a few special characters whose weapons are now AP3/ignore (or force re-roll) invulnerable (i.e. 1 specific armor category in the middle that they don't maul). I was willing to take the bizarre hit, if it was a structure/balance thing, but this is dumb, unless they've just changed their minds (which is okay, as long as limited to higher characters or by expense).
Re: termies, yes I've played them; no, they're not broken. They're just the scary melee monsters you'd expect from the fluff. Plasma/lance/las/melta still kills 'em good at range. It's just a tactical shift. (Though I've never felt 3+ SS were balanced, but that's another discussion, since that's been around for a while.)
edit: personally, I find DE bazapping termies at range, instead of risking getting their heads smushed in melee, to be more characterful, anyways...
edit 2: also, feeling like everyone's PWs got worse, and have suffered a loss of power (AP2 at initiative) but a gain in flexibility (variants with strengths and weaknesses... though I don't really get the power lance's upside) and character from a historical standpoint (axes do crack armor better but are slower; maces are generally stronger but aren't designed to crack armor, etc.)
The tactic for DE assault is to strike first, reduce your models, so we don't have to take 9000 wounds in one combat(it matters because it's terrifyingly easy to ID us), we paid for our high I by having low S and low T per assault standard. Paying for a power axe so we can be on par with an average marine(S4) but striking at I1 is kinda silly. And even then, we could only bring one power axe per unit, only our sarge upgrade or HQ could take power weapon.
Beside, do you know how much a huskblade cost? And how uncommon it is? It's one of our highest costing weapon that's only available to few of our HQs, it'd only make sense if that's on AP2 to make sense of the cost. It also runs on our S3, which would be S4 if we paid for drug and get that S+1 drug on 1/6 of the chance, or we paid for haemonculii and wracks/grots to get FC which would push us to S4 for one turn. And if we're really lucky, we could get S5 with FC and drug. Soultrap only comes into the equation after we've killed at least one MC/IC. There's a reason why agoniser was equally lovable for CCHQ, despite huskblade's ability to ID on wound.
I say, good news for our assault side! Now if they'd add rending to mandrakes to make them more attractive...
re: ¶1, AP2 makes them a lot better than "an average marine", and, if 2+ is the problem, this is an answer. I wouldn't kit every DE squad out with a power axe, but I wouldn't do the equivalent in other armies, either. Just saying it's a tool, not saying it's one everyone will use.
re: ¶2, I know they're rare, I don't know how expensive they are. My point was, I think rules should be consistent. Currently, virtually all AP2 melee weapons are strike last or on something large (MC/dread). I'd feel fine with them being AP2, as long as a few equivalently elite weapons in other armies are, too.
Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.
Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
I think a lot of folks forget our AP 2 weaponry that we mount on our ravages and raiders. 36 inch range and 3 shots apiece for a disintragator cannon. it handles terminators extremely well, that is 9 shots coming from a ravager at that range.
It is also fluffy for the DE to avoid these slow, powerful units and get into stuff that their wyches can easily kill or kabalites can shoot to death. Get your pain tokens, let you vehicles soften them up a bit, kill them with your high attack number latter. I think people are stick on needing something in melee that can bypass the armor. We don't need that, we have ranged options and tons of attack values.
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
Glad someone else feels this way!
Termies aren't world enders, but, after 4* editions, are finally to a place where they fit with GW's fluff. Armies that rely on spamming power swords are hurt by this-- not to be callous, but, adapt to the times.
*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators
I will also chime in towards keeping 2+ saves strong. There are too many things to blast them away in shooting. Termie armor should have something going for it. (also echoing the unbalancing points wise from storm shields) There should be few good melee options in 40k for a giant block of assault terminators, if any, which is why I've always chosen to shoot them down via volume of fire typically (especially when playing Dark Eldar).
Dark Eldar are spoiled for choices to take care of termie armor, even if Incubi stopped being a good/marginal tool for that. I felt in any case with the sheer amount of storm shields going about they were an awful choice to begin with (I always just poisoned attacked them regardless). The army can inflict as many wounds as any army in 40k, use that.
Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.
Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
2+ saves are worth their points already, since the average power sword can't hurt them any more than a chainsword. However, they still need to be able to be taken down, otherwise whats the point of even playing? Shooting is always a nice way to get them (and almost exclusivly how IG gets them), but as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power), and termies have that 5++/4++/3++ invaul (depending on what type they are), then your looking at one, maybe two dead per shooting phase. Currently, if a DE unit is stuck in combat with termies, they lose, badly. A incubi squad can take a demi-klaive, but your looking at 1 or two dead termies a round while your expensive incubi squad is pounded into dust. Drazhar is the best bet we have, with both demi-klaives AND the only 2+ save in the army, but he is expensive and doesn't bring much to the table besides combat prowess.
as for modeling our power weapons as axes, it defeats the point of i6 if we strike a termie simal at s4. We are strike before you do to avoid retaliation, we don't have the armor, nor the durability to strike simal with anything besides other eldar. Thats why demonettes aren't the combat boons bloodletters are, because they strike simal with elder.
And just on a general note, DE aren't special cupcakes, Space Marines are special cupcakes with a power fist in each squad. IG are special cupcakes with their lascannons and Leman Russ Executioner (5 Plasma Cannon Shots, 5!). And Razorflails were never power weapons, termies always got their save against them. The FAQ will allow us to continue our assualting ways without worrying everytime a termie steps onto the field. Ever seen a shooting DE army? Not pretty.
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
Glad someone else feels this way!
Termies aren't world enders, but, after 4* editions, are finally to a place where they fit with GW's fluff. Armies that rely on spamming power swords are hurt by this-- not to be callous, but, adapt to the times.
*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators
Terminator armor never fit the fluff in terms of sustainability, even in 2nd. Its always been the case a few outlier options used gimmicks to disproportionally be tougher than the rest of them. Even now there is simply too much ap 2 in a d6 game to make them resilient in a way benefiting their story. Furthermore why isn't the outcry more towards banshees who typically are forced on termie duty far more than incubi?
Lokas wrote:Any word on us getting our models for our special characters and/or our missing bomber?
November on the bomber (thats the rumored date for flyers wave 2), unless they decide to release it earlier. Also rumors point to a tau flyer with rules released via white dwarf
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lazarian wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:
warboss wrote:
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
Glad someone else feels this way!
Termies aren't world enders, but, after 4* editions, are finally to a place where they fit with GW's fluff. Armies that rely on spamming power swords are hurt by this-- not to be callous, but, adapt to the times.
*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators
Terminator armor never fit the fluff in terms of sustainability, even in 2nd. Its always been the case a few outlier options used gimmicks to disproportionally be tougher than the rest of them. Even now there is simply too much ap 2 in a d6 game to make them resilient in a way benefiting their story. Furthermore why isn't the outcry more towards banshees who typically are forced on termie duty far more than incubi?
because eldar have fire dragons (and alot more anti-termie then DE)
Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.
Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
2+ saves are worth their points already, since the average power sword can't hurt them any more than a chainsword. However, they still need to be able to be taken down, otherwise whats the point of even playing? Shooting is always a nice way to get them (and almost exclusivly how IG gets them), but as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power), and termies have that 5++/4++/3++ invaul (depending on what type they are), then your looking at one, maybe two dead per shooting phase. Currently, if a DE unit is stuck in combat with termies, they lose, badly. A incubi squad can take a demi-klaive, but your looking at 1 or two dead termies a round while your expensive incubi squad is pounded into dust. Drazhar is the best bet we have, with both demi-klaives AND the only 2+ save in the army, but he is expensive and doesn't bring much to the table besides combat prowess.
as for modeling our power weapons as axes, it defeats the point of i6 if we strike a termie simal at s4. We are strike before you do to avoid retaliation, we don't have the armor, nor the durability to strike simal with anything besides other eldar. Thats why demonettes aren't the combat boons bloodletters are, because they strike simal with elder.
And just on a general note, DE aren't special cupcakes, Space Marines are special cupcakes with a power fist in each squad. IG are special cupcakes with their lascannons and Leman Russ Executioner (5 Plasma Cannon Shots, 5!). And Razorflails were never power weapons, termies always got their save against them. The FAQ will allow us to continue our assualting ways without worrying everytime a termie steps onto the field. Ever seen a shooting DE army? Not pretty.
2+ saves are not worth their points, unless your counting on IC in 6ed or chaos termies who are fairly dirt cheap. Storm Shield termies are a significant bargain though since they bypass ap2 weapons quite well. You also seem to miss the 'special cupcake' comment. Every army had power weapon nerfs, even lightning claw termies and GK pallies. Its a blanket correction and DE shouldn't feel upset or disproportionally put upon for having to adjust.
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quilava1 wrote:
because eldar have fire dragons (and alot more anti-termie then DE)
Fire dragons are counter productive against storm shield termies, which is the majority opponent in this department. DE have 12 shot venoms flying around whittling down terminator armor much more efficiently.
spiralingcadaver wrote:re: ¶1, AP2 makes them a lot better than "an average marine", and, if 2+ is the problem, this is an answer. I wouldn't kit every DE squad out with a power axe, but I wouldn't do the equivalent in other armies, either. Just saying it's a tool, not saying it's one everyone will use.
re: ¶2, I know they're rare, I don't know how expensive they are. My point was, I think rules should be consistent. Currently, virtually all AP2 melee weapons are strike last or on something large (MC/dread). I'd feel fine with them being AP2, as long as a few equivalently elite weapons in other armies are, too.
1) I just meant that power axes don't benefit DE as much as it does for other armies. Our speed is our advantage, we paid for our high initiative by having pathetic S and T, taking that away will just make us subpar marine.
2) It's not consistent though, if you let a bunch of warscythe(S+2 AP2 I user) necron get close to your assault termies, they could possibly beat you in combat. And they can bring almost as many of them as an average marine army, not to mention they aren't character, so you can't challenge to reduce the wound count. A primarily shooting army having 1 of the best combat options against termies, but an army that has 70% of the codex made for assault has absolutely terrible AP2 options? How is that balanced? I can't tell you how much a huskblade cost(per the rules, I think), but it is the most expensive combat option we could take, and it's only available to archon and haemonculus. Archon with huskblade would be quite terrifying WS7 I7, but deniable with challenges, and we could only field 2 archons per FoC. We can get upward to 6 haemy per FoC, but their WS4 I4 attacks, no 2++ SF and combat drugs, they'll really struggle to do much damage before you brutally murder them.
So really, you're crying foul because we can field a few characters we paid premium price for to have AP2 5+ to wound(usually) ID weapon? It honestly ain't gonna break the game any more than terminators being absolutely invincible in combat. Trust me, it's a much needed comfort for our assault side, but won't really murder your beloved termies in seconds... Afterall, we'd much rather just direct a load of darklight on your termies instead.
quilava1 wrote:as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power)
A raider squad can put out 4 S8/AP2/Lance. I can't think of many troops choices that can manage that.
Currently, if a DE unit is stuck in combat with termies, they lose, badly.
which is pointless to argue, because it's exactly what both sides agree on: the merit of this is the contention.
Drazhar is the best bet we have, with both demi-klaives AND the only 2+ save in the army, but he is expensive and doesn't bring much to the table besides combat prowess.
Yes. There are a ton of expensive melee characters who just do melee. Thank you for pointing that out.
as for modeling our power weapons as axes, it defeats the point of i6 if we strike a termie simal at s4.
Yep. You need to make a sacrifice to deal with certain adversaries. Scary!
Space Marines are special cupcakes with a power fist in each squad. IG are special cupcakes with their lascannons and Leman Russ Executioner (5 Plasma Cannon Shots, 5!).
Woe is DE. The grass is always greener, etc. etc. Those options are expensive, which makes them a choice.
Marines have higher than avg. initiative and strike simul with other marines (among others). Do you take a power sword and deal with 3+ saves, or do you risk being slower than your opponents' power swords, and take a power fist or power axe, to deal with things that laugh off power swords? What about noise marines with their I5? Which weapon do they take? Yep. an objectively easier/better decision than DE.
All I hear when people say that is foot stamping and 'BUT I WANT MY CLOSE COMBAT SPECIALISTS TO BE UNBEATABLE, NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL THEEEEEM'
Agonisers and Huskblades should absolutely be AP 2. While I won't disagree that 2+ saves weren't worth their points in 5th, due to every power weapon being AP 2, these are new days. It's rare few weapons that can ignore 2+ saves, and you know what, that's okay. I'm not saying that every weapon should ignore 2+ saves anymore, just that the weapons we pay a premium for over other power weapons should. It's pretty simple logic. As it stands right now, our close combat specialists, no matter how cheap, how expensive, how equipped, how not equipped will lose to anything with a 2+ save. No matter what. 200 points of Wyches, Incubi, Grotesques, Wracks, Mandrakes, everything save for Harlequins will lose to terminators. Plain and simple.
As for 'OH JUST TAKE POWER AXES, MARINES HAVE TO TAKE THEM TO DEAL WITH TERMINATORS, WHAT MAKES YOU SO SPECIAL!?'
Our toughness 3 and 6+ save. Marines have an extra pip of toughness and the second best armor save in the game to survive until they swing that axe. We have nothing of the sort. Initiative is our defense. We swing first because if we don't, we die. The axe is a non-option. If a marine takes an axe against a terminator, he's got a good chance of surviving. If a wych takes an axe against a terminator, she dies. If she doesn't take the axe, she dies. That's bs. Plain and simple. Are you honestly so afraid of one model that can deny your armor save? That can be challenged out of a unit? That can be mowed down en masse by overwatch?
We're not asking for an instawin button. We're asking for a fighting chance. That's not unreasonable. Stop pretending it is, just because it comes at your expense.
I'm not sure how getting an anti termy power weapon is newly helpful in an army that can't make it into combat due to overwatch (the actual thing making assault based DEldar uncompetitive).
Baronyu wrote:1) I just meant that power axes don't benefit DE as much as it does for other armies. Our speed is our advantage, we paid for our high initiative by having pathetic S and T, taking that away will just make us subpar marine.
I agree with the first part, I just feel that it's a valid option. Re: the second, still not seeing what you mean.
2) It's not consistent though, if you let a bunch of warscythe(S+2 AP2 I user) necron get close to your assault termies, they could possibly beat you in combat. And they can bring almost as many of them as an average marine army, not to mention they aren't character, so you can't challenge to reduce the wound count. A primarily shooting army having 1 of the best combat options against termies, but an army that has 70% of the codex made for assault has absolutely terrible AP2 options? How is that balanced?
A fair point, though I don't know how much they cost, nor how capable they are of using them. Haven't played as/against necrons since the new codex.
I can't tell you how much a huskblade cost(per the rules, I think), but it is the most expensive combat option we could take, and it's only available to archon and haemonculus. Archon with huskblade would be quite terrifying WS7 I7, but deniable with challenges, and we could only field 2 archons per FoC. We can get upward to 6 haemy per FoC, but their WS4 I4 attacks, no 2++ SF and combat drugs, they'll really struggle to do much damage before you brutally murder them. So really, you're crying foul because we can field a few characters we paid premium price for to have AP2 5+ to wound(usually) ID weapon?
I think we're in agreement... mostly. I feel like no-I1 AP2 weapons should be expensive and rare (but purchasable), but my feeling is that it should be slightly more accessible, but not within a single codex. For instance, Relic Blades for marines seem like they would also be a shoe-in for AP2 status (though possibly more expensive because of it-- don't remember their cost).
It honestly ain't gonna break the game any more than terminators being absolutely invincible in combat. Trust me, it's a much needed comfort for our assault side, but won't really murder your beloved termies in seconds... Afterall, we'd much rather just direct a load of darklight on your termies instead.
Agreed. Even if the rumors aren't true, I'd be happy to have my termies blasted by your scary alien tech. (In the abstract. Probably, in the moment, I wouldn't be as happy about it .)
Don't go hitting on DE just because you don't play them. Haven't YOU people ever wished that your army would get something? Power Axes and Demi-Klaives are are only termie melee options in 6th, one which is counter productive, the other doesn't even have a model and comes in units of expensive guys. Lightning claws nerfed? They can take power fists or thunder hammers. GK termies nerfed? Not really with a daemon hammer and each squad and a 2+ save to boot. DE agonsier nerfed? Shift to shooting? Come on!
quilava1 wrote:Don't go hitting on DE just because you don't play them. Haven't YOU people ever wished that your army would get something? Power Axes and Demi-Klaives are are only termie melee options in 6th, one which is counter productive, the other doesn't even have a model and comes in units of expensive guys. Lightning claws nerfed? They can take power fists or thunder hammers. GK termies nerfed? Not really with a daemon hammer and each squad and a 2+ save to boot. DE agonsier nerfed? Shift to shooting? Come on!
Well, DE are a primarily shooting/mobility army and shooting got buffed in 6th, so there ya go. You can put enough darklight and splinter fire down to kill Terminators while you run circles around them.
All I hear when people say that is foot stamping and 'BUT I WANT MY CLOSE COMBAT SPECIALISTS TO BE UNBEATABLE, NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL THEEEEEM'
Agonisers and Huskblades should absolutely be AP 2. While I won't disagree that 2+ saves weren't worth their points in 5th, due to every power weapon being AP 2, these are new days. It's rare few weapons that can ignore 2+ saves, and you know what, that's okay. I'm not saying that every weapon should ignore 2+ saves anymore, just that the weapons we pay a premium for over other power weapons should. It's pretty simple logic. As it stands right now, our close combat specialists, no matter how cheap, how expensive, how equipped, how not equipped will lose to anything with a 2+ save. No matter what. 200 points of Wyches, Incubi, Grotesques, Wracks, Mandrakes, everything save for Harlequins will lose to terminators. Plain and simple.
As for 'OH JUST TAKE POWER AXES, MARINES HAVE TO TAKE THEM TO DEAL WITH TERMINATORS, WHAT MAKES YOU SO SPECIAL!?'
Our toughness 3 and 6+ save. Marines have an extra pip of toughness and the second best armor save in the game to survive until they swing that axe. We have nothing of the sort. Initiative is our defense. We swing first because if we don't, we die. The axe is a non-option. If a marine takes an axe against a terminator, he's got a good chance of surviving. If a wych takes an axe against a terminator, she dies. If she doesn't take the axe, she dies. That's bs. Plain and simple. Are you honestly so afraid of one model that can deny your armor save? That can be challenged out of a unit? That can be mowed down en masse by overwatch?
We're not asking for an instawin button. We're asking for a fighting chance. That's not unreasonable. Stop pretending it is, just because it comes at your expense.
+10 this.
Having huskblade AP2 ain't gonna change that much, we still have to suffer through overwatch and challenges denying our huskblade attacks on the entire squad, so it isn't gonna push us into the new ultra autowin assault army automatically.
Not sure about the agoniser being AP2 though, may be I've already converted my mindset that I'm gonna use my assault units to take care of 3+ units and leave 2+ to darklights.... But I wouldn't say 'no' if agoniser does become AP2!
So may be +9.8 this...?
@spiralingcadaver
Read Lokas's post, he explained it better than I did.
Basically, our durability is still poop, if you look at the grand scheme of things, even if our rare few HQ can bring in an high I AP2 weapon, you're still gonna run the usual anti-DE tactic: Shoot us down before we get to you, which is easy because we're still DE. Take out our raiders, our huskblade archon is standing in the open with an unit of 6+ save(usually with FNP, deniable by anything S6, and S6 or above guns are easy to come by for most armies). Our archon gets into CC, you lose 1 unit of termies, the rest of your army is free to destroy us just the same, and after that combat, the archon cc unit will be standing in the open.
You've been thinking in a vacuum, it really isn't that scary. It just gives us DE an edge in CC, because no one want to play with/against the boring WAAC darklightspam list.
Huskblades and Agonizers are very expensive wargear options. Incubi were easily one of the worst choices in the elites sections and likely still will be even if they get AP2 again.
From the OP, this is all that will change and will have no real impact on anything.
Having huskblade AP2 ain't gonna change that much, we still have to suffer through overwatch and challenges denying our huskblade attacks on the entire squad, so it isn't gonna push us into the new ultra autowin assault army automatically.
Not sure about the agoniser being AP2 though, may be I've already converted my mindset that I'm gonna use my assault units to take care of 3+ units and leave 2+ to darklights.... But I wouldn't say 'no' if agoniser does become AP2!
So may be +9.8 this...?
Either AP 2, or the Agoniser counts as a proper poison weapon. I'll take one or the other, but for 20 points per model, the agoniser needs a little somethin' somethin' extra to make it worth its points compared to what it is now.
I'd honestly be okay with DE huskblades being AP2, though, like I said, I feel like it should consistent throughout multiple armies.
Agonisers AP2? I think what you'd really like is it to not be 6th edition. Or, if they became AP2, they'd need to be a bit more expensive.
Re: axes, I haven't fought termie-termie, but I'm expecting a lot of mutual destruction. I'd expect similar from termies vs. power axes. I'm not sure why a marine has a more likely chance vs. terminators... he'll get hit on the same roll, and splatted on the same.
re: saves-- my friend's been playing with the old 5+'s (both out of the game for a while)... that certainly changes things.
...this argument is getting heated about stuff no one here has the ability to change, so it seems rather pointless.
Summary of my argument before I leave. AP2 at initiative is okay, but should be more accessible to elites (not Elites), or expensive.
quilava1 wrote:as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power)
A raider squad can put out 4 S8/AP2/Lance. I can't think of many troops choices that can manage that.
How exactly can a troop raider squad take 4 S8 Ap2 Lance that will be actually worth it at a range that avoids the termie survivors pasting the raider and those inside
A Trueborn squad can at range, to be sure, but they are elites.
Kabalite warriors can take 1 dark lance (and had better not be moving (death to a skimmer) or they'll be snap-shotting it (and thus not hitting) ) and one Blaster per squad.
IF you spend out for a Sybarite you can add a Blast Pistol (which has a 6'' range) and if you get to use it on termies it means you are already dead, as they will charge you next turn.
The raider also has a DL.
So if you are within 6'' and not intending on moving away, yes you can get 4 S 8, AP 2 shots.
Three will hit, if you are lucky.
Assuming they all wound, one will be saved by a 5++ save or two with a 3++ save.
End result : One dead termieif they are regular termies, two if they are TH/SS termies.
For this you are sacrificing 200 pts or so of Kabalites and transport, unable to move away, vehicle hit automatically due to not moving, with a decent chance of the vehicle exploding due to PF or TH (and killing half the squad inside due to low T and crappy armour, maybe pinning the rest) .
And if your opponent is in any way competent he will plug the non-moving (and thus non-jinking) raider with someone else, and then have the termies wade into and destroy the Kabalites instead. They will have no CC weapons that can even scratch the paint on TDA, and will all die...
Denkstrum wrote:I think a lot of folks forget our AP 2 weaponry that we mount on our ravages and raiders. 36 inch range and 3 shots apiece for a disintragator cannon. it handles terminators extremely well, that is 9 shots coming from a ravager at that range.
That doesn't mean CC should be devoid of elite-killers, especially since DE is all about the combo of ranged firepower and fast, surgical melee strikes if you really want to clear an objective or wipe out a key unit. Just sitting back 35 inches and blasting away with Ravagers and Venoms at terminators and power armor gone to ground in terrain sounds like a really, really boring way to spend a whole edition!
I am very hopeful about this. If it turns out to be a smart, comprehensive FAQ that restores more viable build to DE (and all other armies), GW will get nothing but praise from me.
Especially since it -might- mean a shift toward more thorough and frequent rule updates that (in my humble opinion) the hobby increasingly requires in a world fileld of interwebs and MMOs and horseless carriages and portable abacus and stuff.
That's the thing though. Agonisers are expensive. They're not quite rare, but only available on models that can be mitigated by challenges, precision shots, or a number of other factors. So we're already paying a premium for a model that can be mitigated, but putting AP 2 on that model would be too much? That'd unbalance the game?
Iiiiiii'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there.
Agonisers AP2? I think what you'd really like is it to not be 6th edition. Or, if they became AP2, they'd need to be a bit more expensive.
Really? Agonizers are already almost the cost of a power Fist. They can almost never go beyond a 4+ to wound, while a fist will usually be going for 2+. Unlike the fist, the Agonizer is crap against vehicles. The only advantage it has over the Fist is that it is fast, but that is mitigated by the fact that it is always placed in a much, much more fragile model who will likely not be around as long as the PF sergeant/champion/HQ.
I like poisoned agoniser, our archon can bring the court and actually benefit from that 2+ buff! And I like the idea of DE being all poisony, both in combat and shooting. Our usually low S should be balance enough, since we won't get to use that reroll most of the time.
Want a way to deal with Termies? Simple, take an allied Farseer, give him doom and guide. Or go with Divination and Prescience and hope for the ability that forces them to reroll armor saves. Cast on Termies and Warriors, then just shoot him to death. I did this with Dire Avengers the other night, and even with an Apothecary the 7 man squad died real quick.
Or use your ravagers. Use the millions of brightlances you can bring to a game. Unless you are playing a straight Death Wing army chances are you won't run into more then 10 models with a 2+ save. Concentrated fire power will get the job done.
Dark Eldar have plenty of options to deal with Terminators. Even more so with being able to bring allies to the fight.
quilava1 wrote:2+ saves are worth their points already, since the average power sword can't hurt them any more than a chainsword.
Um, that's only been true for the past 30 days. If somehow Dark Eldar are special cupcaked into their own special category where their power weapons are ap2 or if that change is made global, that's no longer true. I play deathwing and I can tell you that every battle (regardless of opponent) is an uphill battle due to every tom/dick/harry power weapon ignoring the only strength my army has.
djones520 wrote:Dark Eldar have plenty of options to deal with Terminators. Even more so with being able to bring allies to the fight.
Point isn't that we don't have option to deal with termies, but that we like having options, as anyone would. Also many of us picked DE because we like the synergy of high firepower and mobile assault units, current 6th ed put the shooting aspect so high above our assault units that even as a casual, I feel like an idiot to field more assault than shooting. Yes, casual can still want to win...
warboss wrote: Um, that's only been true for the past 30 days. If somehow Dark Eldar are special cupcaked into their own special category where their power weapons are ap2 or if that change is made global, that's no longer true. I play deathwing and I can tell you that every battle (regardless of opponent) is an uphill battle due to every tom/dick/harry power weapon ignoring the only strength my army has.
Reading 1st post helps. I believe the "good news" is that our huskblade, a rare premium price power weapon, supposedly available to our best of the best(you know, fluff-wise, kinda like our termie, but more stabbing than defending), will be AP2. As I've said on the last page, we have 2 HQ choices that could take it, one of them is scary but we could only bring 2(sacrificing our chance to bring haemy for pain tokens though), the other one has subpar profile for an HQ choice(haemy is only for pain token giving).
@warboss's post under mine
Again, where are you getting that we're getting army-wide AP2 weapon from? I read the whole thread, there are people hoping for agoniser being AP2, and as Lokas, Sephyr and others have explained, it's more balancing our assault with our shooting than "OMFG DE ARE THE NEW POSTER BOYS". The OP mentioned a possible hinting of our huskblade getting buffed to be termie-killer, and that's it.
Lemme put it this way, if all these rumours and wishes(from DE) turn out to be true, this is what will actually happen, ingame term, not in some sorta vacuum where our assault units are on top of your army on turn -10:
You'll still be shooting our transports out, just as easily as before, but you'll see the return of assault/hybrid DE players, instead of every DE players who want to win resorting to the WAAC darklight spam list. Yes, WAAC will still be darklight spam, but these changes will just make our assault build back on par with the rest of the game's assault armies.
So, stop mashing that panic button.
P.S. Also, to mitigate our S3 problem, we need to buy combat drugs on our archon, our coven units and loldrakes can't even get combat drugs. And then you have to roll on the 1/6 chance to get the S+1 drug. Tell me, can you guarantee your rending hit to trigger AP2 100% of the time? You must be a wizard, or your dice are loaded. If we want to use FC to improve our S, which only works on the 1st turn of combat, we'd need to either, again, bring drugs and roll on that 1/6 chance to get a pain token, then pay for coven units and coven HQ to bring us those pain tokens. Chronos is a joke, read Thor's tactica(I know, 5th ed, but it's true still). Not to mention bringing more coven units/haemy means they'll use up the slots for our other units. Then there is the fact that they can only pain token a few of our units. Yes, we can earn our pain tokens by killing your units, but the keyword is "earn", we'd still have to wipe two of your units with S3 attacks before that can happen, and by then, if you still have to complain, you might as well call GW and ask for autowin dice for your army.
Baronyu wrote:1) I just meant that power axes don't benefit DE as much as it does for other armies. Our speed is our advantage, we paid for our high initiative by having pathetic S and T, taking that away will just make us subpar marine.
Yeah, about that pathetic S. We're talking about agonizers which wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness and incubi weapons that are str5 as an option. Where is that pathetic strength in regards to DE getting ap2 unlike everyone else's special power weapons? By the way, str3 is not pathetic... it's actually the average across the vast majority of non-marine armies and the DE have plenty of ways of getting around the "average" without needed a special cupcake ap2 bonus to help. I'm a fan of the terminator buff in this edition but I'm not a fan of getting rid of that for one army. If they decide to change special power weapons to ap2, they need to do it for all armies and not just DE. Either way, I think that change back to the 3.5-5th edition mechanic is a bad idea.
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Baronyu wrote:Reading 1st post helps. I believe the "good news" is that our huskblade, a rare premium price power weapon, supposedly available to our best of the best(you know, fluff-wise, kinda like our termie, but more stabbing than defending), will be AP2.
The thread has moved on from just the first post with people chiming in about their agonizers and incubi weapons (basically every special power weapon) needing to be ap2. Reading the rest of the thread helps. I'm fine with them changing a single weapon to ap2 but I'm countering the argument that all of them need it.
Ok, yes, on that, I agree with you. Like I was just replying to Lokas a few posts back, agoniser being AP2 might be a bit overdone, but him and Sephyr do have a point. I won't repeat what they said, I agree with them, so you could read theirs and pretend I'm making the same points.
As for incubi weapons(I'm a DE player who can't remember what they're called... ) being AP2, I don't know, would kinda make klaivex and drahzar an expensive nothing again, but being that they're supposed to be our best assault unit in the army, who has to pay a lot to get S3 AP3 template shooting for 1 model, and them costing about the same as a termie assault unit, with no grenade or 2+ save or invulnerable... I could see it as a balance. They do take up our elite slot, so we're taking less S8 AP2 shots for better melee...
And I editted my previous post twice... So my replies are kinda all over the place, sorry...
And you're forgetting that if all these rumours are true, and we're getting a new batch of FAQs, your army/armies may also see some sorta buffs. [joke]Unless you're the "OP" army/armies, then I hope you get autolose dice.[/joke]
DE are a little different than other armies because our units are sort of expensive for what you get. Most marine players can't comprehend just how bad strength 3 is. Its abysmally terrible. Couple that in with the fact you'll save the majority of the wounds... I had 10 wyches and engage a tactical squad. I killed 1 marine the first turn. 2 marines the second turn. 1 marine the third turn... it was just embarrassing. 9 wyches and an agonizer hexatrix will put maybe 6 wounds on a marine squad. Only one of them will generally be a power weapon wound. Thats pretty terrible. Compared to an ork boyz squad of comparable points, the Orks will put 15 wounds on that marine squad (assuming the marine player rolls average and only kills 3 boyz).
Fragile armies are very hard to play in this game. When a stiff breeze will cause an entire squad and their transport to die, you either are a) running or b) delivering the knock out blow. If I have to punch, I HAVE to make it count, because I can't take the return hits. Its the weirdest feeling in the world spending 4 turns of a game carefully dissecting an opponents army, taking almost no casualties, only to know that on turn 4-5 when I have to move forward to contest objectives, I'm going to die, a horrible, horrible death.
DE need to have their tools be effective. AP 3 str 3 power weapons is really not effective. Unless of course we see a massive reversal in 6th edition and everyone puts down their space marines to pick up sisters of battle armies. I can TOTALLY see this happening. Just you wait.
DE are a little different than other armies because our units are sort of expensive for what you get. Most marine players can't comprehend just how bad strength 3 is. Its abysmally terrible. Couple that in with the fact you'll save the majority of the wounds... I had 10 wyches and engage a tactical squad. I killed 1 marine the first turn. 2 marines the second turn. 1 marine the third turn... it was just embarrassing. 9 wyches and an agonizer hexatrix will put maybe 6 wounds on a marine squad. Only one of them will generally be a power weapon wound. Thats pretty terrible. Compared to an ork boyz squad of comparable points, the Orks will put 15 wounds on that marine squad (assuming the marine player rolls average and only kills 3 boyz).
If this is a tac squad (which tend to hover around 215 points without a transport, much more than those wyches) than you just caused 3 wounds through saves. The tac squad will then swing back with 6 str4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 wounds through dodge save. The power fist will add another .415 wounds. You're winning. Most dark eldar players can't comprehend having a 16 point model with one attack.
Compared to ork boyz, well. Nothing looks good compared to ork boyz. Ork boyz are so power creeped that they make every other close combat troop in the game look bad.
Fragile armies are very hard to play in this game. When a stiff breeze will cause an entire squad and their transport to die, you either are a) running or b) delivering the knock out blow. If I have to punch, I HAVE to make it count, because I can't take the return hits. Its the weirdest feeling in the world spending 4 turns of a game carefully dissecting an opponents army, taking almost no casualties, only to know that on turn 4-5 when I have to move forward to contest objectives, I'm going to die, a horrible, horrible death.
That's not new though, that's how they worked in fifth as well.
DE need to have their tools be effective. AP 3 str 3 power weapons is really not effective. Unless of course we see a massive reversal in 6th edition and everyone puts down their space marines to pick up sisters of battle armies. I can TOTALLY see this happening. Just you wait.
Dark eldar in sixth need to not buy wyches to work well. Their close combat punch wasn't meaningfully diminished, but overwatch has made the wych into a second class citizen. Range heavy DE still work very well.
Goresaw wrote:DE are a little different than other armies because our units are sort of expensive for what you get. Most marine players can't comprehend just how bad strength 3 is. Its abysmally terrible. Couple that in with the fact you'll save the majority of the wounds... I had 10 wyches and engage a tactical squad. I killed 1 marine the first turn. 2 marines the second turn. 1 marine the third turn... it was just embarrassing. 9 wyches and an agonizer hexatrix will put maybe 6 wounds on a marine squad. Only one of them will generally be a power weapon wound. Thats pretty terrible. Compared to an ork boyz squad of comparable points, the Orks will put 15 wounds on that marine squad (assuming the marine player rolls average and only kills 3 boyz).
Yeah, and one time I had a squad of termies that deepstruck the turn before get hit by a battlecannon and I lost 4 of the 5 models! Clearly that means that termies need to go back to the 2d6 pick the best armor roll thing they had in 2nd edition! The only thing your story "proves" is that you rolled worse than average by at least a standard deviation. A naked squad of 9 witches with the hexatrix w/ agonizer should result in 2.5 dead marines (and that's without choosing any of their squad close combat upgrades) instead of the 1 you got. Your killing one doesn't prove anything more than my own bad luck example does.
A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).
Yes, DE are meant to be fragile, we aren't complaining about that, getting more AP2 weapons won't make us more durable. But you know what we're unhappy about the 6th ed changes though?
1) We're meant to be a glass hammer/cannon army, but our hammer aspect got taken away. Our mobility is just a tiny bit better than other armies now(termies can charge the same distance as we do), our high initiative is the only thing left for us that still run on the "DE are fast" MO. Our melee abilities are lowered, we can't deal with 2+ at all in CC.
2) We really want to avoid darklight spam when possible, but the changes made it so that we have to use more darklight to stay... playable. Casual players do want to win, you know. We won't run WAAC, but that doesn't mean we will lose on purpose.
I'll say it again, if all these rumours and wishes turn out to be true, it'll just make us the actual glass hammer/cannon that we're meant to be, instead of being a subpar assault army/decent shooting army.
Beside, as DE opponents, wouldn't you rather see more varied army list than just "Yup, I'm fielding 483040 dark lances, they're gonna move very little to claim jink save, then fire at you from my deployment zone. Combat drugs? Getting more pain token? Why bother? I only need FNP and combat drugs don't help our shooting side at all!"?
And lets not forget that wych squad isn't just 135 ish points (with an agonzier). Its actually 200, if you buy the raider, and 212 with grenades... 222 with flicker...
You can't get 10 wyches to a squad of tac marines without the raider (or hell, you can't get 20 wyches across the board either!). Wyches stand a snowballs chance in hell in open ground. Heck, even the raider is more of a curse than a blessing. If you blow up the raider, more than half of the wyches are going to die thanks to the explosion in open top vehicles being str 4 now.
I don't get all the negativity and hostility towards bringing DE hand to hand a little bit back. Everyone here agrees that DE hand to hand isn't really all that great, now, and in the past. So instead of trying to make it a viable option, everyone is just saying "well go spam venoms like everyone else." Thats like telling a doctor it hurts when I move my legs, and he says "don't move your legs!"
Every army deserves a "Ward Level" of power and flexability. No army should be reduced to mono-build status because only certain units are good and the rest are lackluster.
Baronyu wrote:A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).
What I see is a naive (at best) or willfully ignorant (at worst) example of cherry picking bad examples combined with a bad luck rolls. The basic tact squad with only "free" upgrades of the heavy bolter and flamer is 170. The squad he is comparing it (9 wyches, agonizer hex) is only 130. If you're even remotely considering proposing a fair example to complain about, the least effort you can put in is to have comparable points (which in this case would be 13 wyches + hex as above). With a +1 ws for the combat drugs, they charge and kill over 4 marines (4.222) with the loss of 1.333 of their own (assuming the sergeant doesn't die). When you compare an equal points example, the wyches win hands down.
edit: The above is assuming no challenges were made for simplicity.
Baronyu wrote:A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).
What I see is a naive (at best) or willfully ignorant (at worst) example of cherry picking bad examples combined with a bad luck rolls. The basic tact squad with only "free" upgrades of the heavy bolter and flamer is 170. The squad he is comparing it (9 wyches, agonizer hex) is only 130. If you're even remotely considering proposing a fair example to complain about, the least effort you can put in is to have comparable points (which in this case would be 13 wyches + hex as above). With a +1 ws for the combat drugs, they charge and kill over 4 marines (4.222) with the loss of 1.333 of their own (assuming the sergeant doesn't die). When you compare an equal points example, the wyches win hands down.
edit: The above is assuming no challenges were made for simplicity.
So we'll throw out all the other variables at play? Flamer in overwatch? Cost difference in transports? Wargear options? Ability to get in place? Comparison of transports? As much as GW tries to balance this game around your method, it never works out that way. There are countless variables in play and the odds of a wyche army getting where it wants to at full strength are substantially less than it is for a unit of marines to do the same. Especially when you consider, and you seem to ignore, that aside from both being a troops choice, neither really has anything in common. A unit of warriors has more in common with a unit of tacticles.
Baronyu wrote:A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).
What I see is a naive (at best) or willfully ignorant (at worst) example of cherry picking bad examples combined with a bad luck rolls. The basic tact squad with only "free" upgrades of the heavy bolter and flamer is 170. The squad he is comparing it (9 wyches, agonizer hex) is only 130. If you're even remotely considering proposing a fair example to complain about, the least effort you can put in is to have comparable points (which in this case would be 13 wyches + hex as above). With a +1 ws for the combat drugs, they charge and kill over 4 marines (4.222) with the loss of 1.333 of their own (assuming the sergeant doesn't die). When you compare an equal points example, the wyches win hands down.
edit: The above is assuming no challenges were made for simplicity.
So we'll throw out all the other variables at play? Flamer in overwatch? Cost difference in transports? Wargear options? Ability to get in place? Comparison of transports? As much as GW tries to balance this game around your method, it never works out that way. There are countless variables in play and the odds of a wyche army getting where it wants to at full strength are substantially less than it is for a unit of marines to do the same. Especially when you consider, and you seem to ignore, that aside from both being a troops choice, neither really has anything in common. A unit of warriors has more in common with a unit of tacticles.
Guy, lets be realistic. Tactical marines are awful because they are overcosted and bad at everything they are meant to do. Wyches are awful because overwatch seriously diminishes their assault potential and creates instances where they are physically incapable of assaulting (burna boyz, shoota boyz) without vanishing. You are comparing a unit that has always been and will always be bad to a unit that became bad because overwatch is a badly implemented rule. Point for point wyches anihalate tacs in close combat just as tacs anihalate wyches with guns. Pure mathematics bares this out. What you should be discussing is why both of those units are sub optimal at their intended duty, not throwing out hyperbole and bad math to pretend they're magically worse.
No one in sixth edition should take either of those two units. Realistically in sixth edition few assault units should ever be taken at all. It's the worst edition for assault oriented armies that this game has ever had.
As a long time DE player I've never felt the need to kill terminators in CC. Shredding them with range has always been effective. .I don't see the need for Agonisers to be AP2
Husk blades are expensive, HQ only items...I wouldn't mind them being AP2 but my DE army isn't going to fall apart without them.
I'm more worried about GW changing Tyranid Boneswords to AP3 to be honest. HTH Warriors just became scary again...
ShumaGorath wrote:Guy, lets be realistic. Tactical marines are awful because they are overcosted and bad at everything they are meant to do. Wyches are awful because overwatch seriously diminishes their assault potential and creates instances where they are physically incapable of assaulting (burna boyz, shoota boyz) without vanishing. You are comparing a unit that has always been and will always be bad to a unit that became bad because overwatch is a badly implemented rule. Point for point wyches anihalate tacs in close combat just as tacs anihalate wyches with guns. Pure mathematics bares this out. What you should be discussing is why both of those units are sub optimal at their intended duty, not throwing out hyperbole and bad math to pretend they're magically worse.
No one in sixth edition should take either of those two units. Realistically in sixth edition few assault units should ever be taken at all. It's the worst edition for assault oriented armies that this game has ever had.
Was gonna respond, @warboss, but here, the voice of reasons. And I really don't wanna spoil the good news thread because a few are terrified by DE lolassaults...
Truth is, if I ignore everything like you did to make a point, I can probably make tau firewarrior squad beats an assault unit in assault, but that's just silly. In reality, if DE is to get agoniser and incubi weapon as AP2, you're gonna challenge our sarge upgrade because they're the only one allowed with the agoniser. Our HQ unit will be the only one immune to such challenge tactic, but rightfully so, HQ should have an use... And ours are mostly CC as well... Incubi? Well, as I've said before, they're a premium cost unit with slightly better durability than average DE, but T3 3+ is gonna be terribly easy to take care of, they should be able to do some damage in CC, 285 points with standard upgraded venom and no upgrade on incubi, that's 5 incubi with no grenade or ranged option... 15 S4 AP2 I5 attacks on charge(if you're in the open), and that is if you don't wreck our AV10 HP2 vehicle 1st... Oh, did I mention they take up the slot for blasterborn? So you have 4 less blaster to deal with for every unit of incubi we bring(considering the points difference, you're probably gonna be missing a lot of our darklight!)
So on paper, AP2 on our expensive assault-only elite unit, AP2 on our army-sarge-upgrade/HQ wide agoniser and AP2 huskblade sound very terrifying. But try looking at the big picture, we aren't getting any more durable, we still rely on our raider/venom to get close, our AV10 skimmers that make every S4 guns feel like they have the gauss rules(6 to glance), not to mention if we decide to all or nothing and flat out our transports to your end, you can just assault them with your S4 attacks/krak grenade and take their WS1 lameness down. On the grand scheme of things, dealing with DE will still be the same, so I'll say it again... stop panicking.
If I played DE--I would worry less about killing terminators and more about how badly the new transport/HTH rules nerfed by army.
So, you move up with a HTH unit in a Raider--watch it get made a wreck, take Str. 4 hits, then next turn you move up--can't assault, get shot---then the turn after you finally assault (something), take overwatch shots then get to swing. Ugh.
*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators
They had 3+ saves on 2d6 after Rogue Trader. Lascannons had -6 to save, so terminators saved on 9+ to lascannons. They could have SS too which was 4+ save unmodified on top of 3+ iirc.
AgeOfEgos wrote:If I played DE--I would worry less about killing terminators and more about how badly the new transport/HTH rules nerfed by army.
So, you move up with a HTH unit in a Raider--watch it get made a wreck, take Str. 4 hits, then next turn you move up--can't assault, get shot---then the turn after you finally assault (something), take overwatch shots then get to swing. Ugh.
If they made us more damaging, I'd say we're fine with being even less durable this ed. Full on glass hammer/cannoning!
I just love the cupcake comment!!! Also don't mess with da orks or we will find you. DE have maybe the best maneuverability in the game. I don't see that they need ap2 CC weapons. They have enough firepower to deal with silly termies. Mega nobz maybe not, but the orks are best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Baronyu wrote:Truth is, if I ignore everything like you did to make a point, I can probably make tau firewarrior squad beats an assault unit in assault, but that's just silly. In reality, if DE is to get agoniser and incubi weapon as AP2, you're gonna challenge our sarge upgrade because they're the only one allowed with the agoniser.
I simply worked with the "example" given and changed it only to equalize the points (which were substantially off) as well as standardize the rolls (which were also coincidentally off the average in favor of the "woe is me, dark eldar!" arguement). As for the equally absurd firewarrior example, feel free to show how that one works in a PM as I'd be amused to see it. Either way, as shuma pointed out, these examples operate in a vacuum and don't represent the width and breath of the actual game. Using a ridiculous "example" of 10 wyches losing close combat to a much more expensive tactical squad due to bad rolls on their part doesn't do the real discussion of whether or not they need a boost any justice.
Baronyu wrote:
So on paper, AP2 on our expensive assault-only elite unit, AP2 on our army-sarge-upgrade/HQ wide agoniser and AP2 huskblade sound very terrifying. But try looking at the big picture, we aren't getting any more durable, we still rely on our raider/venom to get close, our AV10 skimmers that make every S4 guns feel like they have the gauss rules(6 to glance), not to mention if we decide to all or nothing and flat out our transports to your end, you can just assault them with your S4 attacks/krak grenade and take their WS1 lameness down. On the grand scheme of things, dealing with DE will still be the same, so I'll say it again... stop panicking.
It's not panicking but simply asking WHY dark eldar need this particular boost to all their special power weapons compared to other armies (other than the reason being that the people proposing the change play them and stand to benefit). What about regular eldar? Don't they need it just as much? Their CC units took a big hit with ap3 and they have the same rough stats as DE? How about Blood Angels with their sanguinary guard builds? They cost almost as much as a terminator and now stand no chance versus them... their t4 and 2+ save is as effective as a gretchin statline versus powerfists or the dreaded TH/SS build. Does that unit need a special exception to the special power weapon is ap3 rule? How about the lowest of the low, the IG? Don't they need a boost? Their stats are absolute crap compared to your dark eldar and the power weapon upgrade is an absolute joke on them in 6e since they'll effectively be going AFTER everyone but tau and necrons in close combat. They're more fragile than the DE as well versus both shooting and close combat; shouldn't their powerswords be made extra special to counteract their general crappyness? The point is that this case can me made for practically every army out there and giving everyone exceptions to the rule makes the rule itself an exception. They've made the decision to limit things that affect 2+ saves; reversing that due to panicking on YOUR part less than a month after introducing it is a bad idea. Do I think 2+ saves will become more useful and more common on the tabletop? Yes. Are there existing ways of dealing with them in some fashion in every army? For the most part, yes. The difference between my position and yours is that you think DE should have every possible way of dealing with them in the game instead of just a selection. I disagree. I don't mind (as I said earlier) if a limited weapon like the dusk blade gets the bump to ap2 as I think that HQs should have a way of dealing with 2+ saves. The need doesn't extend IMO to every single character in that codex (which is what giving agonizers and incubi weapons that ability means). So, please, take your own advice and stop panicking. If 6 months to a year from now, terminators are dominating the meta in most local scenes and tournies.. then they need to address the situation on a character-wide scale instead of just for a few select HQs and Elites.
I agree that fully half of each embarked unit dying on a Explodes! result is probably a bigger drag on the army than the AP of its CC weapons.
But we were merely addressing the OP's example. Right now, for DEHQs, if you want to face terminators, go Lelith, Drazhar or go home; you will lose almost every channenge to 2+ armor simply because there is no weapon that lets you cause consistent damage.
As I said, all MeQ armies have a weapon option for sergents to do AP2 damage: the Power Fist. It's not really odd to expect most others to have similar tools. I'm alright with Incubi Klaives being AP3, even if they should have gotten a little something to make up for their suddenly worse transports, overwatch danger and etc. The klaivex has an AP option and that's enough.
The average Agonizer causes what, 1 wound on the charge, and against terminators that gets further filtered by their inv saves (5++ or, most often, 3++). We're not talking about a weapon you can spam here. Also, remember that now, unlike before, you can actually pick out the Agonizer bearer with precision shots, overwatch and other stuff that plain didn't exist before for almost all armies.
warboss.... "why dark eldar?" Well, because this is a dark eldar thread...? It started because OP spoke to Phil Kelly at Game day or whatever...
Couple posts back, I just said it as well, if this rumour is true, and we're getting FAQs version 2.0, then may be Eldar will be getting something as well? Did we deny other army from getting their codices? Did you go to the general discussion "What do nids need?" thread and complain how they think they're the new cupcakes? You're in a thread called "Good News For DE" for crying out loud, of course we, DE players, would be talking about what possible upgrade would be good for us. Do you see me going to a necron thread and going "I want 360 arc-of-fire on my flyer too!!"? Or how necron are the "cupcakes" because their supersonic flyers are actually good? And even then, those are facts, these are rumours and wishes!!
It's a rumour thread on possible next batch of FAQ, and this one in particular is about Phil Kelly possibly hinting at huskblade getting AP2. The rest are wishes and speculations for god's sake, is it so bad that we want something for our assault side? So is this panicking? Yes it is. When the day comes that Matt Ward writes our codex, then yes, go ahead and whine about how we're the cupcakes, but before that, we're free to speculate on what will aid us, and what will actually come.
Damn, and I thought I was whiny and terrible during 6th ed launch...
So just calm down and remember all of these speculations and wishes are no different from what every "what x army needs" thread go about... Seriously...
@Sidstyler
As much as I want every codices to be rewritten by Matt Ward, I don't think/want DE codex to get updated yet, I want to see SoB update the most.
If every Matt Ward's codex is "overpowered" and every codex is written by him, then we'll have all the same good codices all around!
Sephyr wrote:I agree that fully half of each embarked unit dying on a Explodes! result is probably a bigger drag on the army than the AP of its CC weapons.
But we were merely addressing the OP's example. Right now, for DEHQs, if you want to face terminators, go Lelith, Drazhar or go home; you will lose almost every channenge to 2+ armor simply because there is no weapon that lets you cause consistent damage.
As I said, all MeQ armies have a weapon option for sergents to do AP2 damage: the Power Fist. It's not really odd to expect most others to have similar tools. I'm alright with Incubi Klaives being AP3, even if they should have gotten a little something to make up for their suddenly worse transports, overwatch danger and etc. The klaivex has an AP option and that's enough.
The average Agonizer causes what, 1 wound on the charge, and against terminators that gets further filtered by their inv saves (5++ or, most often, 3++). We're not talking about a weapon you can spam here. Also, remember that now, unlike before, you can actually pick out the Agonizer bearer with precision shots, overwatch and other stuff that plain didn't exist before for almost all armies.
I think the primary tactic in this scenario is to use the fact that half of your guns are ap2 or better rather than trying to send half naked woman with whips at 1,200 pound armormen.
Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way. Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though
Wow...always fun to see DE players whine about not getting everything.
So the lances and blasters you all take that cut through terminators like a warm knife through butter without even having to risk melee arent enough?
Funny I thought the typical 20+ lance/blasters in very single DE army I have seen would be enough to kill terminators but apparently boo hoo, now DE must get AP2 in melee as well since otherwise its unfair.
lol
It´s just as pathetic as if the GK community started to whine about getting their psycannons range 48´.
ShumaGorath wrote:I think the primary tactic in this scenario is to use the fact that half of your guns are ap2 or better rather than trying to send half naked woman with whips at 1,200 pound armormen.
Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way. Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though
Wow...always fun to see DE players whine about not getting everything.
So the lances and blasters you all take that cut through terminators like a warm knife through butter without even having to risk melee arent enough? Funny I thought the typical 20+ lance/blasters in very single DE army I have seen would be enough to kill terminators but apparently boo f**g hoo, now DE must get AP2 in melee as well since otherwise its unfair.
lol
It´s just as pathetic as if the GK community started to whine about getting their psycannons range 48´.
The tactic with DE was never to try and take down termies in combat. In fifth wyches were treated as a tarpit unit and utilized that way to tie up large terminator squads if the effort was required at all. Suddenly now everyone wants to kill them with their squad leaders despite the fact that they'll just get challenged anyway. Dark eldar have a lot of problems in this edition, but terminators are only marginally better after the power weapon change. The vast majority of armies will just kill them with lasers, much like they did before.
Lets not forget that with the new rules concerning assaulting from reserves our web way portals became all but useless. Dropping a suicide portal delivery and then more suicide squads is just nuts and really destroyed a interesting aspect of the army.
Oh whats that Mr Wych? You want to stand right in front of me and cop a rapid fire burst and overwatch into your face before you assault? You and your fancy webways!
barit wrote:Lets not forget that with the new rules concerning assaulting from reserves our web way portals became all but useless. Dropping a suicide portal delivery and then more suicide squads is just nuts and really destroyed a interesting aspect of the army.
Oh whats that Mr Wych? You want to stand right in front of me and cop a rapid fire burst and overwatch into your face before you assault? You and your fancy webways!
Yeah, kommandos, wolf scouts, genestealers, and every other unit and playstyle based on flanking assaults is now useless. If you can't show up and lay down a lot of firepower you might as well not show up to the table.
Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.
Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
The problem is now, in melee, DE can count what one maybe two AP 2 weapons. That is for the whole army.
An Agonizer is a weapon that costs roughly the same as a powerfist, but bounces off 2+ save armor.
I agree with you, I am a big supporter of the overall AP 2/3 change that power weapons got in this edition. Most power weapons should be AP 3, that is the boost. Dark Eldar is a very cornercase situation though. Right now, they can't even take a character that can scratch the paint on a Terminator. When a 250ish point Asbrubel Vect can't kill standard terminators in melee, that is a problem.
My point is that there should be certain AP2 weapons out there, and they should be on characters and units that are supposed to handle CC duties against even the toughest of targets. Incubii should serve the roll as the DE's heavy hitters. That has always been their function. Giving them AP 2 weapons serves that purpose. With how much harder it is to deliver them in the first place, I don't mind this at all. Right now, DE players have basically Harlequins as a heavy hitter, and I think that is just bad faction balance.
Agonizers are the DE equivalent to power fists, and giving them AP 2 isn't that big a deal anyways. It allows a basic Archon to challenge tough targets.
And before everyone says it, yes, I know DE have massive AP 2 shooting to fall back on. That is why I argue for only a limited introduction of AP 2 CC weapons into their army. I always felt that DE is Shooting and Tricks first, assault second. But there are armies that force the engagement too easily with DE with high quality troops, so they need some answers. Not a lot, some.
Back to my original point though. I still feel it was a massive oversight on the first rounds of FAQs not to clarify non-generic CC weapons AP values. There is a 4 or 5 page long thread in the rules forum just on whether Dante has an Axe or is it a special CC weapon at AP 3. The digital Space Marine codex was updated to give a Relic Blade AP3. That should be in the FAQs. I shouldn't have to guess what a weapon is, or assume it was AP 3 or not.
Agonizers are the DE equivalent to power fists, and giving them AP 2 isn't that big a deal anyways. It allows a basic Archon to challenge tough targets.
Cool, lets give them ap2 and initiative one and now we're back to normal.
Pyriel- wrote:Wow...always fun to see DE players whine about not getting everything.
So the lances and blasters you all take that cut through terminators like a warm knife through butter without even having to risk melee arent enough?
Funny I thought the typical 20+ lance/blasters in very single DE army I have seen would be enough to kill terminators but apparently boo f**g hoo, now DE must get AP2 in melee as well since otherwise its unfair.
lol
It´s just as pathetic as if the GK community started to whine about getting their psycannons range 48´.
The problem with your asinine statements is that the people who are complaining aren't running darklight spam lists, if they were, they wouldn't be complaining about melee weapons.
Is it really that shocking that an army balanced between close combat and shooting, and built towards high damage alpha strikes wants to be able to damage terminators with their melee?
Evidently it's not even that Dark Eldar players were whining and demanding it of Phil Kelly, it was entirely an oversight which he became aware of when the difficulty of dealing with 2+ armour was mentioned to him, it's not like a bunch of Dark Eldar players marched on Nottingham and demanded AP2 huskblades, GW thought they had given them tools to deal with AP2 in melee when they in fact had not.
Pyriel- wrote:Wow...always fun to see DE players whine about not getting everything.
So the lances and blasters you all take that cut through terminators like a warm knife through butter without even having to risk melee arent enough? Funny I thought the typical 20+ lance/blasters in very single DE army I have seen would be enough to kill terminators but apparently boo f**g hoo, now DE must get AP2 in melee as well since otherwise its unfair.
lol
It´s just as pathetic as if the GK community started to whine about getting their psycannons range 48´.
The problem with your asinine statements is that the people who are complaining aren't running darklight spam lists, if they were, they wouldn't be complaining about melee weapons.
Is it really that shocking that an army balanced between close combat and shooting, and built towards high damage alpha strikes wants to be able to damage terminators with their melee?
Evidently it's not even that Dark Eldar players were whining and demanding it of Phil Kelly, it was entirely an oversight which he became aware of when the difficulty of dealing with 2+ armour was mentioned to him, it's not like a bunch of Dark Eldar players marched on Nottingham and demanded AP2 huskblades, GW thought they had given them tools to deal with AP2 in melee when they in fact had not.
If they get an ap2 weapon it'll have to become unweildly like all the others. Otherwise every other army will start complaining that all that armor they pay points for is useless. Once you get that weapon you'll then complain that their sarge just challenges you and then your squad gets wrecked because Whyches always have been and always will be an awful anti terminator unit whether the agonizer is a special unicorn gauntlet or not. Stop trying to shoehorn a unit that is abysmal in an anti terminator role into an anti terminator role by asking for something no other army has (an ap2 2+ to wound power weapon at initiative).
ShumaGorath wrote:If they get an ap2 weapon it'll have to become unweildly like all the others. Otherwise every other army will start complaining that all that armor they pay points for is useless. Once you get that weapon you'll then complain that their sarge just challenges you and then your squad gets wrecked because Whyches always have been and always will be an awful anti terminator unit whether the agonizer is a special unicorn gauntlet or not. Stop trying to shoehorn a unit that is abysmal in an anti terminator role into an anti terminator role by asking for something no other army has (an ap2 2+ to wound power weapon at initiative).
So by saying the Huskblade should be AP2 because GW clearly think it should be AP2, I'm shoehorning wyches (who don't even get access to huskblades) into a role they don't belong in?
Great reasoning there Columbo.
There is no unit more appropriate for fighting terminators in the Dark Eldar army than Wyches, Incubi who won't get saves against the return hits are just too expensive to throw in on a bunch of powerfists or thunderhammers, giving the Klaivex AP2 doesn't change that, it's just a nice bonus for letting him pick on artificer armour characters. To be clear, since you seem to infer a lot from posts that wasn't intended, that doesn't inherently mean I think they need AP2 agonizers, although I think it's worth pointing out the Power Axe (or any other unwieldy option) is an impractical solution to AP2 for a Dark Eldar character if there isn't another model suited to challenges in the same unit.
Forget demi-klaives being ap2... Klaives should be ap2. A heavy, 2h sword is given the same ap as the dinky 1h IG battery sword?
Incubi are, and always have been, utterly wasted on SMs in power armor. Throwing Incubi at a squad of SMs is like throwing terminators at gretchin. Gross overkill. Terrible use of an expensive squad which was meant for bigger, better things.
But now DE players are supposed to be grateful that their expensive, heavy assault squad kept its point cost but lost its potency?
Brother SRM wrote:
quilava1 wrote:Don't go hitting on DE just because you don't play them. Haven't YOU people ever wished that your army would get something? Power Axes and Demi-Klaives are are only termie melee options in 6th, one which is counter productive, the other doesn't even have a model and comes in units of expensive guys. Lightning claws nerfed? They can take power fists or thunder hammers. GK termies nerfed? Not really with a daemon hammer and each squad and a 2+ save to boot. DE agonsier nerfed? Shift to shooting? Come on!
Well, DE are a primarily shooting/mobility army and shooting got buffed in 6th, so there ya go. You can put enough darklight and splinter fire down to kill Terminators while you run circles around them.
Well... Not primarily. DE are only a primarily shooting/mobility army when they are built as such. Their assault builds are equally competitive and viable... Or were, until Incubi lost their potency.
ShumaGorath wrote:If they get an ap2 weapon it'll have to become unweildly like all the others. Otherwise every other army will start complaining that all that armor they pay points for is useless. Once you get that weapon you'll then complain that their sarge just challenges you and then your squad gets wrecked because Whyches always have been and always will be an awful anti terminator unit whether the agonizer is a special unicorn gauntlet or not. Stop trying to shoehorn a unit that is abysmal in an anti terminator role into an anti terminator role by asking for something no other army has (an ap2 2+ to wound power weapon at initiative).
So by saying the Huskblade should be AP2 because GW clearly think it should be AP2, I'm shoehorning wyches (who don't even get access to huskblades) into a role they don't belong in?
Great reasoning there Columbo.
There is no unit more appropriate for fighting terminators in the Dark Eldar army than Wyches, Incubi who won't get saves against the return hits are just too expensive to throw in on a bunch of powerfists or thunderhammers, giving the Klaivex AP2 doesn't change that, it's just a nice bonus for letting him pick on artificer armour characters. To be clear, since you seem to infer a lot from posts that wasn't intended, that doesn't inherently mean I think they need AP2 agonizers, although I think it's worth pointing out the Power Axe (or any other unwieldy option) is an impractical solution to AP2 for a Dark Eldar character if there isn't another model suited to challenges in the same unit.
Actually, the most apropriate unit for fighting terminators is one that does it with guns. The dark eldar are a precise hit and run force that applies the maxmimum force where it will receive the minimum resistance. That means shooting down close combat bricks and cutting ranged units with knives. If you play wyches like they're the answer for everything than of course you're losing. As for whether or not the designers thinks it should be ap2, well that's kind stupid since the designers made it ap3. It's as if they don't know what they're doing and don't care at all about codex balance in sixth edition.
ShumaGorath wrote:If they get an ap2 weapon it'll have to become unweildly like all the others. Otherwise every other army will start complaining that all that armor they pay points for is useless. Once you get that weapon you'll then complain that their sarge just challenges you and then your squad gets wrecked because Whyches always have been and always will be an awful anti terminator unit whether the agonizer is a special unicorn gauntlet or not. Stop trying to shoehorn a unit that is abysmal in an anti terminator role into an anti terminator role by asking for something no other army has (an ap2 2+ to wound power weapon at initiative).
So by saying the Huskblade should be AP2 because GW clearly think it should be AP2, I'm shoehorning wyches (who don't even get access to huskblades) into a role they don't belong in?
Great reasoning there Columbo.
There is no unit more appropriate for fighting terminators in the Dark Eldar army than Wyches, Incubi who won't get saves against the return hits are just too expensive to throw in on a bunch of powerfists or thunderhammers, giving the Klaivex AP2 doesn't change that, it's just a nice bonus for letting him pick on artificer armour characters. To be clear, since you seem to infer a lot from posts that wasn't intended, that doesn't inherently mean I think they need AP2 agonizers, although I think it's worth pointing out the Power Axe (or any other unwieldy option) is an impractical solution to AP2 for a Dark Eldar character if there isn't another model suited to challenges in the same unit.
Except the tradeoff for their invulnerable save in assault is their inability to take many armour denying weapons. There's always a tradeoff - terminators are resiliant and strike hard, but strike last. Having something that's durable (with a good invulnerable save in assault) that strikes hard (with AP2 weapons) and also strikes first (due to not having Unweildy weapons) is called unbalanced. The only oddity is Hammernators, but that's due to their obscene durability to even AP 2 weapons. If you want Wyches to be Terminator killers, they need to lose something in return for those 4+ invulnerables. Since every single other army pays for it now with a reduction to initiative, then Dark Eldar should too. Or better yet, use a unit you already have that does the job - Incubi, and just like everyone else, pray they do the job before the powerfists swing back.
Or, better, as ShumaGorath said, do it with guns. Dark Eldar are hardly short of weapons that can throw out enough shots to make a good amount of Terminators fail their saves.
Darklight going into Terminators is Darklight not going into other threats. It's hard to ignore TAQs getting in your face when there are other targets out there as well. Having to waste Darklight shots on Terminators just because you barely have any other options is disheartening.
-Loki- wrote:Except the tradeoff for their invulnerable save in assault is their inability to take many armour denying weapons. There's always a tradeoff - terminators are resiliant and strike hard, but strike last. Having something that's durable (with a good invulnerable save in assault) that strikes hard (with AP2 weapons) and also strikes first (due to not having Unweildy weapons) is called unbalanced. The only oddity is Hammernators, but that's due to their obscene durability to even AP 2 weapons. If you want Wyches to be Terminator killers, they need to lose something in return for those 4+ invulnerables. Since every single other army pays for it now with a reduction to initiative, then Dark Eldar should too. Or better yet, use a unit you already have that does the job - Incubi, and just like everyone else, pray they do the job before the powerfists swing back.
Or, better, as ShumaGorath said, do it with guns. Dark Eldar are hardly short of weapons that can throw out enough shots to make a good amount of Terminators fail their saves.
Drunkspleen wrote:that doesn't inherently mean I think they need AP2 agonizers
-Loki- wrote:Except the tradeoff for their invulnerable save in assault is their inability to take many armour denying weapons. There's always a tradeoff - terminators are resiliant and strike hard, but strike last. Having something that's durable (with a good invulnerable save in assault) that strikes hard (with AP2 weapons) and also strikes first (due to not having Unweildy weapons) is called unbalanced. The only oddity is Hammernators, but that's due to their obscene durability to even AP 2 weapons. If you want Wyches to be Terminator killers, they need to lose something in return for those 4+ invulnerables. Since every single other army pays for it now with a reduction to initiative, then Dark Eldar should too. Or better yet, use a unit you already have that does the job - Incubi, and just like everyone else, pray they do the job before the powerfists swing back.
Or, better, as ShumaGorath said, do it with guns. Dark Eldar are hardly short of weapons that can throw out enough shots to make a good amount of Terminators fail their saves.
Drunkspleen wrote:that doesn't inherently mean I think they need AP2 agonizers
I never said you wanted AP2 agonizers - but you obviously want AP 2 something, since it's the only thing lacking to make them anti TEQ. It's not what they want the unit to kill in assault - elite troops maybe, but not TEQ.
Lou_Cypher wrote:Darklight going into Terminators is Darklight not going into other threats. It's hard to ignore TAQs getting in your face when there are other targets out there as well. Having to waste Darklight shots on Terminators just because you barely have any other options is disheartening.
Lou_Cypher wrote:Darklight going into Terminators is Darklight not going into other threats. It's hard to ignore TAQs getting in your face when there are other targets out there as well. Having to waste Darklight shots on Terminators just because you barely have any other options is disheartening.
I never said Darklight weapons. I said force them to fail saves. Which means weight of fire, which is the way Terminators have always been dealt with outside of assault. Lots and lots of anti infantry firepower that will force those super tough Terminators to fail enough saves. And Dark Eldar do this with more efficiency than most.
That unit of Scourges? Give it splinter cannons. Fire it into those Terminators. Notice you're outside of their strom bolter and assault cannon range and can move faster? Use pre measuring to keep dancing out of their range and hitting them. They'll be dead in a turn or two.
barit wrote:
Lets not forget that with the new rules concerning assaulting from reserves our web way portals became all but useless. Dropping a suicide portal delivery and then more suicide squads is just nuts and really destroyed a interesting aspect of the army.
Oh whats that Mr Wych? You want to stand right in front of me and cop a rapid fire burst and overwatch into your face before you assault? You and your fancy webways!
Yeah, kommandos, wolf scouts, genestealers, and every other unit and playstyle based on flanking assaults is now useless. If you can't show up and lay down a lot of firepower you might as well not show up to the table.
Exactly. Boo hoo...
A lot of things are utterly useless like vanguards, legion of the damned, GK psilencers etc etc and etc.
What makes DE so special that they of all must have everything useful in a competitive setting?
An Agonizer is a weapon that costs roughly the same as a powerfist, but bounces off 2+ save armor.
SO?
Arent we "forgetting" that the powerfist is useless now as it will only be challenged to death or hide never to strike, and for it´s insane cost?
Lets all whine about the unfair cost of powerfists shall we.
When a 250ish point Asbrubel Vect can't kill standard terminators in melee, that is a problem.
Oh geez. When the 275p-ish Draigo with his AP3 superweapon cant even kill terminators in melee then we have a problem...not!
Agonizers are the DE equivalent to power fists, and giving them AP 2 isn't that big a deal anyways. It allows a basic Archon to challenge tough targets.
They already get insane initiative. How about giving my powerfists I4 then, that would make it fair.
The problem with your asinine statements is that the people who are complaining aren't running darklight spam lists, if they were, they wouldn't be complaining about melee weapons.
Is it really that shocking that an army balanced between close combat and shooting, and built towards high damage alpha strikes wants to be able to damage terminators with their melee?
Yes!
They already get the best mobility in the entire game and shooting power to match.
What is asinine is the ridiculous notion that they should be given superb melee powers as well.
Fluff and game balance is, contrary to what you might think, not going hand in hand. If it was then SM armies would me masters of everything rather then mediocre jacks of all trades and masters of none.
Darklight going into Terminators is Darklight not going into other threats.
So a 15p blaster vs a 40p terminator is called a bad thing since it can´t then shoot at other targets?
Nice reasoning there Columbo
I never said Darklight weapons. I said force them to fail saves. Which means weight of fire, which is the way Terminators have always been dealt with outside of assault. Lots and lots of anti infantry firepower that will force those super tough Terminators to fail enough saves. And Dark Eldar do this with more efficiency than most.
It´s apparently not enough. They must get super mobility, super AP2-6 shooting, super initiatives and on top of it all AP2 weapons so that not even melee against terminators is the slightest of drawbacks.
Seems the majority of people in this thread are upset DE ever got an update to begin with. I mean if all we were supposed to do was fly around in gun boats spaming dark light at max range till the game was over, why bother updating the codex? They could do it better with their 3rd edition book than they could now.
What's wrong with the Dark Eldar book having a use for every unit in the codex? I mean god forbid a codex come out that people actual had some choice in how they wanted to play. But no, this is asking too much for the Dark Eldar, after waiting over a decade for their book to be updated, to be given anything new to use.
This is what you all are fighting so hard for.
Incubi are a specialized assault unit that is expensive, easy to kill, and can no longer easily get into assault with the updated 6th edition rules. Who cares if they're all AP2 still when no one is going to use them anymore.
Same is true for wyches. A specialized assault unit that can no longer get into assault because of the 6th edition rules, and are now even worse off in melee because they can't effectively take agonizers to deal with hard targets (and keep in mind, most people didn't take them anyway because they elected for tarpit squads).
And then the conversation about if we want semi-powerfists then we should attack at initiative order? Really? Will Agonizers then increase the De's strength and toughness to 4, increase their armor save to 3+, and cost half as many points to truly level the playing field? And how about granting double strength so they have a legitimate option against vehicles, something the agonizer doesn't have?
Armies are meant to be different. Doesn't mean that half the units in a codex should be useless, which isn't really going to change unless DE somehow get boarding ramps so they can once again actually assault out of their vehicles.
Who cares if they get their AP2 back? No one will use the units anyway....
1). Everyone here apparently likes monobuild lists. Instead of trying to make more units useful and viable, everyone is saying "just spam dark lances." If I take wyches... I'm not taking more venoms and blasters. Its not like adding more AP 2 melee weapons suddenly makes DE shooting better. When Necrons and Grey Knights have 3-4 viable builds, you want to keep other armies just running one, predictable, build? (maybe two if Dark Footdar works).
2). No one here is saying they don't want to see other weaker units brought up in power too. Its just a thread about dark eldar. I would be thrilled to see Legion of the Damned, Swooping Hawks, Beasts of Nurgle, and all the other sub-par/under powered units brought up to being useful. Its just this is a thread about bringing up one specific part of one specific army.
This thread is so amazingly 'internet'. Its just a bunch of angry people complaining when one person says they might have something nice happen to them. (and certainly didn't say that other nice things wouldn't happen to other people either when the new FAQs come out).
Pyriel- wrote:It´s just as pathetic as if the GK community started to whine about getting their psycannons range 48´.
Wouldn't DE talking about a perceived army weakness only be comparable to GK doing the same thing if both armies were at an equal power level? Are they at an equal power level?
barit wrote:
Lets not forget that with the new rules concerning assaulting from reserves our web way portals became all but useless. Dropping a suicide portal delivery and then more suicide squads is just nuts and really destroyed a interesting aspect of the army.
Oh whats that Mr Wych? You want to stand right in front of me and cop a rapid fire burst and overwatch into your face before you assault? You and your fancy webways!
Yeah, kommandos, wolf scouts, genestealers, and every other unit and playstyle based on flanking assaults is now useless. If you can't show up and lay down a lot of firepower you might as well not show up to the table.
Exactly. Boo hoo...
A lot of things are utterly useless like vanguards, legion of the damned, GK psilencers etc etc and etc.
What makes DE so special that they of all must have everything useful in a competitive setting?
An Agonizer is a weapon that costs roughly the same as a powerfist, but bounces off 2+ save armor.
SO?
Arent we "forgetting" that the powerfist is useless now as it will only be challenged to death or hide never to strike, and for it´s insane cost?
Lets all whine about the unfair cost of powerfists shall we.
When a 250ish point Asbrubel Vect can't kill standard terminators in melee, that is a problem.
Oh geez. When the 275p-ish Draigo with his AP3 superweapon cant even kill terminators in melee then we have a problem...not!
Agonizers are the DE equivalent to power fists, and giving them AP 2 isn't that big a deal anyways. It allows a basic Archon to challenge tough targets.
They already get insane initiative. How about giving my powerfists I4 then, that would make it fair.
The problem with your asinine statements is that the people who are complaining aren't running darklight spam lists, if they were, they wouldn't be complaining about melee weapons.
Is it really that shocking that an army balanced between close combat and shooting, and built towards high damage alpha strikes wants to be able to damage terminators with their melee?
Yes!
They already get the best mobility in the entire game and shooting power to match.
That's grade-A, pure misleading, good sir. Must be that hydroponic stuff people are all talking about.
As has been said before, Power Fists wound easier and have much better anti-vehicle capability, and can ID a large percentage of the HQs in the game, something an Agnozer will never, ever do.
You also forget that DE lack the T4, ATSKNF, 3+ or 2+ armor of marine armies, meaning they require a faster, hard pucnh. They can't duke it out long-term and shouldn't be expected to. Does that mean they should be able to always wipe out the target on the charge? No, but it does mean that a good, planned assault should be able to cause enough damage to make the reaction survivable for the thin reedy tweaker elves.
And yes, I'm sorry to say, your points reek of MeQ-entitlement butthurt. DE don't have the best mobility in the game: Necrons and Eldar go just as fast, and Necrons actually go faster with flyer swarm and better weaponry. Even Marine flyers are more cost-effective and versatile than DE planes.
But if you want every list you face until 7th edition to be a mix of ravagers/Razorwings backed by as many Venoms as can fit in the list, go on with your little lame points. One would think players of other armies would want me and other De to field CC troops, since you can at least overwatch them and and assault them back, than watch me play keep-away with skimmers while you enjoy making 13 Look Out, Sir! rolls in a row each turn.
Apparently people forget that there are already instances of initiative or higher AP 2 close combat weapons. Rending, Monstrous Creatures, and now Deamons has a unit in Screamers with high str initiative AP 2 attacks.
The gaining some access to AP 2 CC attacks in a faction doesn't invalidate the buff terminators received in this edition. This is a premeasuring game now anyways, if you are really concerned with those melee units, then move out of threat range.
I also don't think it breaks the bank to have a wych squad kill a single terminator with their 20 point agonzier.
LOLz this thread is interesting if it's true that DE will get some form of an FAQ update. To the people complaining that DE don't need some adjustment to be playable in this edition are completely out of touch with playing this game...and I'd even question whether they themselves either: A.) play the game, or B.) regularly play vs. DE, or better yet as DE.
The lack of AP2 CC weapons is such a minor bump for DE, but one that was seriously overlooked in the first pass through of the FAQ. Currently, there are only 4 models (not units...models!) in the codex that can deal with 2+ armor saves: Lelilth, The Duke, Drazhar, and a Klaivex. Three of these models are special characters...of which two of them require a decent delivery system to work at all. This is part of the problem. The problems of DE go much deeper than just the simple lack of AP2 CC weapons.
How about addressing the fact that the vehicles, the points costing, and the mechanics of how DE were designed to function no longer work in this edition because of massive changes to how assault works, reserves work, and how USRs have changed? Literally, this codex is only about 18 months old....but yet suffered more debilitating changes than most codexes that were older. To me, most of these problems could have been resolved with a better FAQ to bring the codex back some punch. Changing the stats for a huskblade and an agonizer to be AP2 isn't that big of a deal...given the fact that the models that wield them took a hit in their effectiveness overall. You still have to reach a target...
While the lack of AP2 CC weapons is a minor concern (and really isn't going to affect game balance a whole lot)...nobody is addressing the near useless pain token system which has largely been rendered obsolete by the changing of two key USRs that the DE used. Nobody is addressing that WWPs are now fundamentally worthless and the units that benefited from them has a skewed point cost now because the idea of unit cost in that codex was paying premiums for the ability to alpha strike assault. Something that only a few units can manage now...but are in other codexes. To the people that claim that DE players are whining....to that I say, feth off. Players like us waited 13 years for a new codex, new models, etc....and we finally got it...but here we are with an edition change, and 18 months later, we are back to square one with a codex whose effectiveness lasted as long as a fart in the wind. The problems with that codex now is that 60% of the book is essentially unusable in the current edition due to the changes of the core rules themselves. It would have been very easy to allow assaults off a WWP portal by simply changing the wargear entry to allow it. One simple sentence. Stupid crap like that is what has DE players pissed. So bottom line...the inclusion of a FAQ update to buff two CC weapons to AP 2 isn't that big of a deal. There are still a dozen or more issues that need attention..but probably won't get it. If it offends the 2+ terminator circle jerk...too bad.
Mahu wrote:
I also don't think it breaks the bank to have a wych squad kill a single terminator with their 20 point agonzier.
It's not a question about breaking the bank but rather making sense within the framework and supposed balance of the new edition and codex. EVERY normal dark eldar character already has an option for an ap2 close combat weapon via the normal power weapon upgrade options. Why would anyone EVER take a 15pt ap3 weapon that wounds on a 5+ versus marines or an ap2 one that strikes last when they can take a 20pt weapon that is ap2 and wounds on a 4+ and goes on initiative? The only scenario when it'll be used is if you're tailoring your army to an opponent who you know doesn't have any 2+ save models. I can see Husk blades bumped up as they're very limited to HQish characters and pricey but the bog standard agonizer that EVERY character can take doesn't need it as the roll of killing 2+ saves is already available to everyone. You simply don't want to pay the same cost (of going last) that every other army has to pay because you're special apparently.
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CaptKaruthors wrote:
The lack of AP2 CC weapons is such a minor bump for DE, but one that was seriously overlooked in the first pass through of the FAQ. Currently, there are only 4 models (not units...models!) in the codex that can deal with 2+ armor saves: Lelilth, The Duke, Drazhar, and a Klaivex. Three of these models are special characters...of which two of them require a decent delivery system to work at all. This is part of the problem. The problems of DE go much deeper than just the simple lack of AP2 CC weapons.
EVERY dark eldar character can upgrade to an ap2 weapon via the normal power weapon rules. There is no lack of AP2 cc weapons so please don't confuse the discussion with blatantly wrong statements. You simply want the dark eldar to be such special cupcakes that they don't have to pay the penalty that every other army has to pay simply because you play them.
EVERY dark eldar character can upgrade to an ap2 weapon via the normal power weapon rules. There is no lack of AP2 cc weapons so please don't confuse the discussion with blatantly wrong statements. You simply want the dark eldar to be such special cupcakes that they don't have to pay the penalty that every other army has to pay simply because you play them.
This is both wrong and a lie. Don't go into politics.
What AP2 CC weapon does Asdrubael Vect have?
Also, S4 Ap2 axes that go at Ini 1? You do know that the main (only) reason people tolerate the Ini 1 on power fists is their colossal Strength, right? Sure, I'll pay points so my HQ/character can get killed at ini 4/3 an then fail to wound even if me makes it to his initiative step.
To get a Hekatrix with an Agoniser you have to pay the points for a Wych, then the points to upgrade it to a Hekatrix then the points for an Agoniser. This totals out at the same points cost for a Terminator.
So in pure balance terms that Hekatrix with an Agoniser should be able to kill that Terminator as many times as the Terminator can kill her (possibly slightly more as the Hekatrix sacrifices longer range shooting for close combat ability).
As it is now when charging that Hekatrix will in fact have a 1 in 6 chance of killing that Terminator, whilst the Terminator has a 5 in 24 chance of killing the Hekatrix. So even a basic tactical Terminator is better in CC than a dedicated combat model who costs the same amount of points.
A Syren with an Agoniser costs slightly more points than a Terminator and for those extra points she gets the same odds to kill the basic Tactical Terminator as he does against her. With the increased Initiative you could argue that that is fair.
As it stands if you want to kill Terminators in CC with Dark Eldar you just take Venom Blades to force more saves. In fact, maths wise, the Hekatrix will cause more wounds to the Terminator (5 in 18) when buying a weapon which costs 1/4 the price of the Agoniser. Which I think we will all agree is a bit silly.
EVERY dark eldar character can upgrade to an ap2 weapon via the normal power weapon rules. There is no lack of AP2 cc weapons so please don't confuse the discussion with blatantly wrong statements. You simply want the dark eldar to be such special cupcakes that they don't have to pay the penalty that every other army has to pay simply because you play them.
This is both wrong and a lie. Don't go into politics.
What AP2 CC weapon does Asdrubael Vect have?
Read the whole post before you accuse people of lying.
warboss wrote:It's not a question about breaking the bank but rather making sense within the framework and supposed balance of the new edition and codex. EVERY normal dark eldar character already has an option for an ap2 close combat weapon via the normal power weapon upgrade options.
I was refering to normal character (aka NOT SPECIAL). As another hint for the reading impaired would be that I referred to normal power weapon options which Vect doesn't have since he's got a special power weapon. Either way, Vect is not "special" in that regard compared to other HQs. Dante goes last with his power axe with the new rules. Would you rather have that? How about the myriad of other special character HQs like Belial or Azrael or Sammael from the Dark Angels who also get ap3 now? The switch to ap3 isn't a Dark Eldar thing but instead a universal switch... a rash band aid fix shouldn't be instituted for a single army.
Sephyr wrote: Also, S4 Ap2 axes that go at Ini 1? You do know that the main (only) reason people tolerate the Ini 1 on power fists is their colossal Strength, right? Sure, I'll pay points so my HQ/character can get killed at ini 4/3 an then fail to wound even if me makes it to his initiative step.
Right... your high WSHQ with tons of special rules/upgrades including a 2+ invul save or the ability to simply ignore d3 hits on him every round while likely surrounded by a unit of high I models that strike first most of the time to clear out the enemy near him in an army where FNP is handed out like candy won't survive unless he gets special rule options that almost no other army gets? You, on the other hand, should go into politics with the way you "spin" (to put it mildly) the truth as well as ignore what was actually written.
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A Town Called Malus wrote:Here's something to consider.
To get a Hekatrix with an Agoniser you have to pay the points for a Wych, then the points to upgrade it to a Hekatrix then the points for an Agoniser. This totals out at the same points cost for a Terminator.
So in pure balance terms that Hekatrix with an Agoniser should be able to kill that Terminator.
As it is now when charging that Hekatrix will in fact have a 1 in 6 chance of killing that Terminator, whilst the Terminator has a 5 in 24 chance of killing the Hekatrix. So even a basic tactical Terminator is better in CC than a dedicated combat model who costs the same amount of points.
A Syren with an Agoniser costs slightly more points than a Terminator and for those extra points she gets the same odds to kill the basic Tactical Terminator as he does against her. With the increased Initiative you could argue that that is fair.
As it stands if you want to kill Terminators in CC with Dark Eldar you just take Venom Blades to force more saves. In fact, maths wise, the Hekatrix will cause more wounds to the Terminator (5 in 18) when buying a weapon which costs 1/4 the price of the Agoniser. Which is a bit silly.
A veteran sergeant in a tactical squad (or frankly any marine squad other than scouts) with a power weapon cost more than a terminator and has the same problem. Does that mean EVERY marine power weapon needs to be ap2 as well right?
It's not a question about breaking the bank but rather making sense within the framework and supposed balance of the new edition and codex.
Making sense with the framework and supposed balance? What? LOL. :faceplam: The entire design of the codex has been turned upside down and has zero balance within the framework of the new edition. Only a fool would believe that...or a blind person would fail to see it. Please explain to me how WWPs and the premium you paid for units to assault from it suddenly "work" within this supposed 6th edition framework you've assumed? Please explain to me how having mandrakes be able to outflank even makes any sense now..given that it's an assault unit..but now can't assault? Explain to me how the Power Through Pain mechanic is even remotely viable now that 2 of the 3 USRs completely reduced the effectiveness of said mechanic to the point of absurdity? Please explain to me how the trade of high initiative (the price DE pay) for lower durability even works...now that it doesn't matter when everyone else moves at the same speed? How does that fit into your framework?
EVERY normal dark eldar character already has an option for an ap2 close combat weapon via the normal power weapon upgrade options. Why would anyone EVER take a 15pt ap3 weapon that wounds on a 5+ versus marines or an ap2 one that strikes last when they can take a 20pt weapon that is ap2 and wounds on a 4+ and goes on initiative?
Firstly, power weapons for DE are 15pts for IC's but 10pts for squad characters...great..so now I'm taking a weapon as an axe that completely removes the advantage of a higher initiative and further demonstrates the disadvantage of that trade off? Really? That's your solution? How does this fit in with challenges? How does this help wyches or any other basic unit that has access to power weapons? Agonizers are 20pts. You are paying more because the weapon has a fixed value to wound. But that points cost was factoring in the ability to ignore armor of everything. Now? It's too expensive. Based on your logic the power weapon is the better buy...and in some cases it is...but then what makes the agonizer have any value for 20pts when it's purpose was to be used vs. hard targets originally?
The only scenario when it'll be used is if you're tailoring your army to an opponent who you know doesn't have any 2+ save models.
Agonizers were taken, because they were great against everything that had a save...that was the point of taking them...and why (within the design framework of the codex) they cost 20pts. Their weakness was they were useless vs. AV targets. Additionally, agonizers are essentially 30pts on models that can take them that aren't independent characters. You still pay the squad upgrade tax. So tell me...is an agonizer worth 30pts as is...but a powerfist is 25pts? Get real.
I can see Husk blades bumped up as they're very limited to HQish characters
Huskblades should be AP2. It's 35pts...and requires a further 10pt piece of wargear to have any value.
and pricey but the bog standard agonizer that EVERY character can take doesn't need it as the roll of killing 2+ saves is already available to everyone. You simply don't want to pay the same cost (of going last) that every other army has to pay because you're special apparently.
Um...no. We want a weapon to function in the way it was originally intended based on it's points cost...and the way the DE were designed to work.Take your SM love somewhere else. There are lots of websites and forums that deal with that.
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I was refering to normal character (aka NOT SPECIAL). As another hint for the reading impaired would be that I referred to normal power weapon options which Vect doesn't have since he's got a special power weapon. Either way, Vect is not "special" in that regard compared to other HQs. Dante goes last with his power axe with the new rules. Would you rather have that? How about the myriad of other special character HQs like Belial or Azrael or Sammael from the Dark Angels who also get ap3 now? The switch to ap3 isn't a Dark Eldar thing but instead a universal switch... a rash band aid fix shouldn't be instituted for a single army.
Yet these armies you make mention of can take a basic elite unit and have access to loads of AP2 CC weapons? Yet the DE only get it in 3 special characters...and one fething upgrade guy in a unit that is over priced to begin with. Your argument is ridiculous. Also, most of those characters have limited use or cost too much...or both...yeah...lets take those guys...LOL.
A veteran sergeant in a tactical squad (or frankly any marine squad other than scouts) with a power weapon cost more than a terminator and has the same problem. Does that mean EVERY marine power weapon needs to be ap2 as well right?
That is incorrect. His cost is already is built into the unit. He's essentially 33pts. with a power weapon. (18pts base +15pts for the power weapon).
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As it stands if you want to kill Terminators in CC with Dark Eldar you just take Venom Blades to force more saves. In fact, maths wise, the Hekatrix will cause more wounds to the Terminator (5 in 18) when buying a weapon which costs 1/4 the price of the Agoniser. Which I think we will all agree is a bit silly.
Agreed and another good point about how silly the points costs are for somethings in that codex...especially now in 6th. An FAQ update would fix a lot of stupid crap like that, but they probably won't do it.
I think the only argument I've seen worth merit in this thread is the one about how little AP 2 weapons would change balance in favor of the DE.
Everything else (especially Warboss's posts) has been a mixture of crying about how unbalanced it would be, how army x doesn't have the power weapons options we do and neither should we, and (especially warboss's posts) outright ad hominem arguments.
In regards to the original topic, about DE getting some AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, the fact of the matter right now is that if wyches, grotesques, wracks or hekatrix bloodbrides engage anything, and I do mean anything, with a 2+ save in close combat, they will lose. This is an immutable fact. The only exception is extraordinary dice rolls. Our close combat specialists cannot compete against the close combat specialists of enemy armies under any circumstances whatsoever. This is utter crap. It needs to be fixed. Again, we're not asking for instawin buttons. We're asking for our close combat troops to stand a chance against your close combat troops. If I weaken your terminator squad down to 3 men and throw 10 wyches at it, they should win, not bounce off the terminators like a solid wall and run screaming. There is no argument to be made against this point, because the only objection to this is 'NO, YOUR WYCHES SHOULD NOT WIN COMBAT AGAINST 2+ SAVES EVER EVER EVER EVER.' Which is an astoundingly flawed standpoint to take.
I'm not asking for Wyches to go toe to toe with full strength terminator squads and come out on top. I'm not asking for Wyches to get power fists that strike at initiative. I'm asking to be given a fighting chance. That's not too much, no matter what you say. That's not asking for special cupcake privileges, every army deserves a fair chance to win. It just so happens that this is a dark eldar thread, discussing rumors about dark eldar being brought up a little bit after being kicked around quite a bit by the new edition. We'd talk about fixing other armies who deserve it, but that's not in the topic of this thread. I don't think anyone here was trying to make the point that Dark Eldar deserve special privileges other armies don't, that we deserve to have all the cool instawin toys. No, not at all. But we do deserve a fair chance. There are millions of other things wrong with our codex in this edition, but lacking access to AP 2 close combat weapons is one of them, a major one that relegates us into a few builds instead of having a good range of viable armies. We'd like that to be fixed. We'd like to have our hybrid lists back. Wyches were never unbalanced before, so why the huge friction towards giving them a buff that won't even return their former glory? Are you honestly that foolish that you think 3 terminators should beat 10 wyches in close combat?
If so, you have much deeper problems than playing against Dark Eldar.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Here's something to consider.
To get a Hekatrix with an Agoniser you have to pay the points for a Wych, then the points to upgrade it to a Hekatrix then the points for an Agoniser. This totals out at the same points cost for a Terminator.
So in pure balance terms that Hekatrix with an Agoniser should be able to kill that Terminator.
As it is now when charging that Hekatrix will in fact have a 1 in 6 chance of killing that Terminator, whilst the Terminator has a 5 in 24 chance of killing the Hekatrix. So even a basic tactical Terminator is better in CC than a dedicated combat model who costs the same amount of points.
A Syren with an Agoniser costs slightly more points than a Terminator and for those extra points she gets the same odds to kill the basic Tactical Terminator as he does against her. With the increased Initiative you could argue that that is fair.
As it stands if you want to kill Terminators in CC with Dark Eldar you just take Venom Blades to force more saves. In fact, maths wise, the Hekatrix will cause more wounds to the Terminator (5 in 18) when buying a weapon which costs 1/4 the price of the Agoniser. Which is a bit silly.
A veteran sergeant in a tactical squad (or frankly any marine squad other than scouts) with a power weapon cost more than a terminator and has the same problem. Does that mean EVERY marine power weapon needs to be ap2 as well right?
Space Marine Sergeant: 3+ Armour Save Strength and Toughness 4 And They Shall Know No Fear Frag and Krak Grenades
Hekatrix: 6+ Armour Save, 4+ Dodge in CC Initiative 6 Always wounds on a 4+ Plasma Grenades
In Close combat that Wych does better against wounds caused by power weapons with AP3 and better thanks to her Dodge (+1 Wych). However she is wounded easier and fares worse against wounds which do not negate armour (+1 SM). The Wyches Agoniser is better against T5 and up enemies (+1 Wych), equal against T4 enemies (Tie) and worse against T3 and below enemies (+1 SM). The Space Marine Sergeant strikes after her thanks to her Initiative 6 (+1 Wych). If that Space Marine fails a morale test he will automatically regroup next turn, even if below 25% (+1 SM).
The Space Marine is a lot harder to kill outside of combat (+1 SM). His Frag Grenades are worse than Plasma when thrown in the shooting phase (+1 Wych) but his Krak grenades are better at taking out vehicles (+1 SM).
I might have forgotten something (so feel free to add something which you feel I missed) but by my count the Space Marine is better by 1 and, by my maths, costs 1 more point than the Hekatrix.
CaptKaruthors wrote:Firstly, power weapons for DE are 15pts for IC's but 10pts for squad characters...great..so now I'm taking a weapon as an axe that completely removes the advantage of a higher initiative and further demonstrates the disadvantage of that trade off? Really? That's your solution?
You mean are you forced to make the same choice as every other army when taking the ap2 variant of the basic power weapon? Yes. Of course, you'd like the best of every world seeing as you're apparently the apple in the archon's eye so don't want to pay the same price as everyone else with standard power weapons.
CaptKaruthors wrote:Um...no. We want a weapon to function in the way it was originally intended based on it's points cost...and the way the DE were designed to work.Take your SM love somewhere else. There are lots of websites and forums that deal with that.
LOL, I'll stay right here keeping you honest. I also play Tau, IG, and now Eldar in addition to marines btw. With 6e, you have to come to grips with the fact that basic power weapons are ap3 now and THAT is the new baseline of how they're intended to play. Your upgrade cost to the agonizer lets you wound on a 4+ instead of the usual 5+ you'd get versus marines or worse versus bikers/monstrous creatures/etc. I realize that anger is one step of grieving that the rules have changed so we'll all be right here to guide you along to acceptance when you're ready (hopefully soon).
CaptKaruthors wrote:That is incorrect. His cost is already is built into the unit. He's essentially 33pts. with a power weapon. (18pts base +15pts for the power weapon).
Subtract the price of the individual marines from the 5 man squad cost to get the sergeants cost which corresponds much more closely to the cost of them back when you bought them as an upgrade than your example. It also corresponds to the price of the devastator sergeant as well as the assault marine sergeant once you add in the 2pt increase regular marines get for the jump pack. I'm not sure where you're getting 18pts from as thats never been close to what a sergeant has been in a marine army. Either way, even if I take your mystical 18pts at the truth, the same is true of a LC terminator. He cost the same as his powerfist brethren but can't damage them. I guess you think lightning claws need to go to ap2 as well? The pt-for-pt killing in return doesn't work when you only compare two units from completely different unrelated armies.
Lets look at a list of things 6th did to DE:
1). Everyone has the Jink save that DE had to pay for in 5th
2). Open topped fast vehicles with low armor suck more than last edition
3). CC got nerfed for just about any non AV3 based army
4). Fleet got nerfed
5). Overwatch mows us down on charge due to AP. Trust me, just loosing 3 girls on the charge makes a HUGE difference in this army.
6). FNP got nerfed and so did cover saves
7). We cant assult from the WWP meaning it is very hard to get our cc units into the fray
8). Furious Charge got nerfed.
9). Unlike most MEQ armies we have to pay for our grenades.
Even if you remove the "balance" issue and go with GW "cinematic" view this army now operates nothing like the fluff written for the army. They are supposed to be lithe, fast, and sneak up on you. Instead they die in their own deployment zone.
I could give a crap about the ap2 stuff. The reality is it is nigh impossible to get the cc oriented army anywhere close to the terminators. At least give the FNP (4+) rule back to the grotesque to make them half worth taking.
You mean are you forced to make the same choice as every other army when taking the ap2 variant of the basic power weapon? Yes. Of course, you'd like the best of every world seeing as you're apparently the apple in the archon's eye so don't want to pay the same price as everyone else with standard power weapons.
Um, no. See marines are strength 4. They already had a superior power weapon compared to DE before they do anything to modify it..be it changing to a spear, an axe, etc. So marine basic power weapons cost the same but are actually still better. Your logic is absurd. Additionally, a DE player is paying 30pts for a hekatrix with an agonizer...when a power fist on a marine is 25pts.
LOL, I'll stay right here keeping you honest.
Honest? Honest about what? Honest about how big of a shaft the DE took to the pooper? We don't need you here to establish the shafting we took. We as DE players already know that. But thanks.
I also play Tau, IG, and now Eldar in addition to marines btw.
So what? I play all those armies as well. And your point is?
With 6e, you have to come to grips with the fact that basic power weapons are ap3 now and THAT is the new baseline of how they're intended to play.
Um, no. We're not talking about basic power weapons. We're talking about weapons in the codex that go beyond that...and beyond the cost of what a basic power weapon gives. So if I take a power ax instead of an agonizer I'm now str4 but swing last at AP2. How do you justify a weapon like the agonizer being twice the cost...but actually being worse? Or better yet...take a power maul...go to strength 5 AP4 for 10pts...vs. taking a venom blade for 5pts that always wounds on a 2+. This is why your "how it was intended" argument is ridiculous. Just except the fact that GW botched this one and they need to address it somehow....and if they do it to a handful of weapons in the codex...it isn't going to change much because it still doesn't solve the other half-dozen problems in that codex.
Your upgrade cost to the agonizer lets you wound on a 4+ instead of the usual 5+ you'd get versus marines or worse versus bikers/monstrous creatures/etc. I realize that anger is one step of grieving that the rules have changed so we'll all be right here to guide you along to acceptance when you're ready (hopefully soon).
See the above point...then decide how silly you sound. So basically, I'm now paying essentially 30pts to wound at a fixed value? Really? I'm sorry, but the price of the agonizer was based more on the fact that it wounded on a fixed value and ignored the armor saves of everything. Also, it makes zero sense that certain types of power weapons don't do much more than other types of wargear that cost less (I'm looking at you venom blades..LOL.)
Subtract the price of the individual marines from the 5 man squad cost to get the sergeants cost which corresponds much more closely to the cost of them back when you bought them as an upgrade than your example.
No it doesn't because in the past, you had to buy a marine..then pay the Sgt upgrade. Now you get it for all one cost when you buy 5 marines at 90pts. So basically 90 divided by 5 gets you 18pts per model for your first 5 marines...one of which allows you to buy wargear for it.
I'm not sure where you're getting 18pts from as thats never been close to what a sergeant has been in a marine army.
A tactical squad is base 90pts that auto includes the sgt upgrade. Thus the cost is per model for the first 5 is 18pts...thus the sgt costs 18pts. You can only determine his cost that way based on the flat rate of 90pts you get to start with. 90 divided by 5 =18.
Either way, even if I take your mystical 18pts at the truth, the same is true of a LC terminator. He cost the same as his powerfist brethren but can't damage them. I guess you think lightning claws need to go to ap2 as well?
True, but then there is no price increase or decrease for freely swapping weapons in that unit. Thus, your investment in points is the same regardless... i.e. there is no real downside as you get a fixed cost regardless of weapon type.
The pt-for-pt killing in return doesn't work when you only compare two units from completely different unrelated armies.
LOLz. Your entire argument is based on these comparisons. We are only pointing out these comparisons to demonstrate how ridiculous your argument is.
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Lets look at a list of things 6th did to DE:
1). Everyone has the Jink save that DE had to pay for in 5th
2). Open topped fast vehicles with low armor suck more than last edition
3). CC got nerfed for just about any non AV3 based army
4). Fleet got nerfed
5). Overwatch mows us down on charge due to AP. Trust me, just loosing 3 girls on the charge makes a HUGE difference in this army.
6). FNP got nerfed and so did cover saves
7). We cant assult from the WWP meaning it is very hard to get our cc units into the fray
8). Furious Charge got nerfed.
9). Unlike most MEQ armies we have to pay for our grenades.
Even if you remove the "balance" issue and go with GW "cinematic" view this army now operates nothing like the fluff written for the army. They are supposed to be lithe, fast, and sneak up on you. Instead they die in their own deployment zone.
I could give a crap about the ap2 stuff. The reality is it is nigh impossible to get the cc oriented army anywhere close to the terminators. At least give the FNP (4+) rule back to the grotesque to make them half worth taking.
I agree with this 100%...and was the points I made earlier.
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Foo wrote:I swear, every time I hear Warboss say, "special cupcake", I mimic his avatar.
Every time I hear it...it makes me want throw my face in a wood chipper.
What's wrong with the Dark Eldar book having a use for every unit in the codex? I mean god forbid a codex come out that people actual had some choice in how they wanted to play. But no, this is asking too much for the Dark Eldar, after waiting over a decade for their book to be updated, to be given anything new to use.
All books have loads of units and wargear that are not used, so? What makes DE so special?
According to GW they playtest codexes with cinematic gaming as balancing point not with the mind of hardcore must-win tournament people. Thus all codexes are stuffed full of units that are fun to use but never taken in competitive gaming. Oh how unfair to the poor poor DE players that they too are stuck with some crappy choices.
Incubi are a specialized assault unit that is expensive, easy to kill, and can no longer easily get into assault with the updated 6th edition rules. Who cares if they're all AP2 still when no one is going to use them anymore.
Same is true for wyches. A specialized assault unit that can no longer get into assault because of the 6th edition rules, and are now even worse off in melee because they can't effectively take agonizers to deal with hard targets (and keep in mind, most people didn't take them anyway because they elected for tarpit squads).
They got 3+ saves and you call them easy to kill and besides you whine about them not being able to massacre terminators in melee?
I gakking lack words...
Strange, somehow eldar get stuck with banshees and scorpions that dont even get as good saves and weapons but for some reason the world hasnt ended.
Hey my vanguard marines cost tons and tons again and they only get AP5 weapons and have crappy initiatives, someone call 911 since I cant use them in a tournament.
And then the conversation about if we want semi-powerfists then we should attack at initiative order? Really? Will Agonizers then increase the De's strength and toughness to 4, increase their armor save to 3+, and cost half as many points to truly level the playing field?
Perfectly ok...as long as opponents can instantkill all those semi-powerfists simply by issuing a challenge.
And how about granting double strength so they have a legitimate option against vehicles, something the agonizer doesn't have?
Oh I forgot, poor poor you only get tons of blasters and lances to deal with all those horrible vehicles, it must really suck not to be able to own vehicles in melee too...*cough* haywires *cough*.
I would be thrilled to see Legion of the Damned, Swooping Hawks, Beasts of Nurgle, and all the other sub-par/under powered units brought up to being useful.
I agree 100% BUT...as long as GW playtests new codexes using cinematic "nice" fighting (they admitted this) then we and by we I mean, everyone, will be stuck with lots of things that is considered useless in competitive gaming. This game IS rather balanced from a nice, fluffy and cinematic point of view and as long as players agree to this when building their armies it´s fun but all this goes out the window as soon as one player starts to opt his army (blaster/lance spam, psyfledread spam etc etc).
Thus, DE are not special simply becuase they too get useless stuff.
Wouldn't DE talking about a perceived army weakness only be comparable to GK doing the same thing if both armies were at an equal power level? Are they at an equal power level?
I cant answer that unless you bring up what level of competitive builds both armies use.
As has been said before, Power Fists wound easier and have much better anti-vehicle capability, and can ID a large percentage of the HQs in the game, something an Agnozer will never, ever do.
You also forget that DE lack the T4, ATSKNF, 3+ or 2+ armor of marine armies, meaning they require a faster, hard pucnh. They can't duke it out long-term and shouldn't be expected to.
And a large percentage of HQs can take out that fist simply by challenging it so?
Marines get ATSKNF sure but they also pay for it. DE cost nothing and get insane mobility and thus need to come with drawbacks such as fragility and staying power.
As for the fist vs vehicle this is a moot point, vehicles are fast, fists are on foot and I am yet to see one single fist actually hitting a DE skimmer in melee. Thus your point being?
Also DEHQs and characters can get AP2 weapons so you can take your infantile whining and keep it to yourself but I guess you want to both have AP2 melee as well as high S and high initiative because otherwise things are unfair, you can only play a single build and I am the one being butthurt. Maybe you should take a reality check.
This is both wrong and a lie. Don't go into politics.
What AP2 CC weapon does Asdrubael Vect have?
Also, S4 Ap2 axes that go at Ini 1? You do know that the main (only) reason people tolerate the Ini 1 on power fists is their colossal Strength, right? Sure, I'll pay points so my HQ/character can get killed at ini 4/3 an then fail to wound even if me makes it to his initiative step.
Wow, what an argument. ONE character doesnt get an AP2 weapon and the world falls apart. you sir are really the king of butthurt.
Lets see Draigo doesnt get an AP3 weapon nor a 2++ save, boo hoo. (not to mention the majority of HQs out there that dont come with AP2 melee weapons anymore nor have 2++ saves)
Oh and poor vect cant stand up in melee since he doesnt get an AP2 weapon and thus will surely die..."forgot" about his 2++ inv save I guess but sure, lets give him a real I1 power fist and also nerf his save to a 4++ one shall we? No? Want to keep that 2++ bubble then bite the bullet and live without an AP2 weapon that goes last because things in the game need to have something called drawbacks.
Now dont waste time by bringing up special characters in a discussion about overall general balance/advantages/drawbacks.
So in pure balance terms that Hekatrix with an Agoniser should be able to kill that Terminator as many times as the Terminator can kill her (possibly slightly more as the Hekatrix sacrifices longer range shooting for close combat ability).
As it is now when charging that Hekatrix will in fact have a 1 in 6 chance of killing that Terminator, whilst the Terminator has a 5 in 24 chance of killing the Hekatrix. So even a basic tactical Terminator is better in CC than a dedicated combat model who costs the same amount of points.
You forgot other factors such as the terminator not nearly being as mobile, needing a 250p-ish transport to move around while the wytch and her buddies pretty much get a 25-ish inch assault range bubble then there are points like fragility etc etc so it´s not as black and white as you make it seem.
A veteran sergeant in a tactical squad (or frankly any marine squad other than scouts) with a power weapon cost more than a terminator and has the same problem. Does that mean EVERY marine power weapon needs to be ap2 as well right?
Spot on. It´s oh so unfair you know but dont mention these things since shuma will assume you are simply a bitter and butthurt SM player. It´s his version of a brilliant counter argument.
Take your SM love somewhere else
Honest? Honest about what? Honest about how big of a shaft the DE took to the pooper? We don't need you here to establish the shafting we took. We as DE players already know that. But thanks.
Oh but we need you and your DE bias in here?
lol Nice arrogance there.
I agree with most of the posters here that changing Agonisers to be AP 2 will not fix the problems Dark Eldar has because of the edition change.
I'm pretty disappointed that an army I bought and collected to be a change of pace proved to be the red-headed stepchild of the
new edition.
It looks like the mediocre Codex Marines army I had that is sub-par compared to any other Marines codices has actually got a better chance at winning than my hybrid DE list.
So much bile and vitriol being tossed around, because of a few players wanting a few AP2 weapons for assault units in an edition where assault was hit with a batstick repeteadly?
You'd think that Space Marine players could keep up with, you know, a unit that costs as much as a squad of Marines (tooled up, mind you) and only one of those will actually be doing any killing, provided she survives. Completely unbalanced in any way you look at it.
And because other (and older) codexes have bad units, a not-even-two-years-old codex must have them too. It's part of the "balance".
Destrado wrote:So much bile and vitriol being tossed around, because of a few players wanting a few AP2 weapons for assault units in an edition where assault was hit with a batstick repeteadly?
You'd think that Space Marine players could keep up with, you know, a unit that costs as much as a squad of Marines (tooled up, mind you) and only one of those will actually be doing any killing, provided she survives. Completely unbalanced in any way you look at it.
And because other (and older) codexes have bad units, a not-even-two-years-old codex must have them too. It's part of the "balance".
Apparently a few too many people saw their prized , supposedly undefeatable space marines get gobbled in assault by evil space elves and now they have a permanent sad.
Not even seeing all the top tournament rankings infested with GK, SW and BA managed to restore their self-confidence, you see.
I really do hope more codices, imperial and xenos alike, get FAQed and re-balanced more often. It makes a richer hobby if units like Ogryns, Mandrakes, vanilla Devastators and possessed don't fall by the wayside due to poor/old design and see the table instead. I'm amazed that this is supposed to be a controversial statement.
Pyriel, Incubi have no ranged attack, cost more than a SM, can no longer assault from a vehicle the turn they disembark, can't assault from a webway portal, have no grenades, and are still T3. Please don't pretend a 3+ save is going to get them to accomplish anything remotely close to them earning their points back. And this isn't even factoring in what you sacrifice in taking them considering how every person in this thread is of the opinion DE should be nothing but a gun boat ranged army and they should be happy they have even that after waiting 10 years for a codex and ultimately nothing has changed in the way they play or the units they bring.
And please don't bother getting into a discussion on DE special characters when no one uses them because of how horrendously overcosted they are and how ineffective everything but a Haeomonculi is.
You mean are you forced to make the same choice as every other army when taking the ap2 variant of the basic power weapon? Yes. Of course, you'd like the best of every world seeing as you're apparently the apple in the archon's eye so don't want to pay the same price as everyone else with standard power weapons.
Um, no. See marines are strength 4. They already had a superior power weapon compared to DE before they do anything to modify it..be it changing to a spear, an axe, etc. So marine basic power weapons cost the same but are actually still better. Your logic is absurd. Additionally, a DE player is paying 30pts for a hekatrix with an agonizer...when a power fist on a marine is 25pts. .
Lol, you call my logic absurb yet include the price of the upgrade character and weapon but compare it only to a different weapon but skip that character's upgrade cost. Way to go there, Mr. Spock!
CaptKaruthors wrote:
I also play Tau, IG, and now Eldar in addition to marines btw.
So what? I play all those armies as well. And your point is? .
It was your point I was responding to about taking myself and my SM love out of the thread. SM represent the minority of armies I have.
CaptKaruthors wrote: A tactical squad is base 90pts that auto includes the sgt upgrade. Thus the cost is per model for the first 5 is 18pts...thus the sgt costs 18pts. You can only determine his cost that way based on the flat rate of 90pts you get to start with. 90 divided by 5 =18..
That's true only if you completely ignore the price for the standard marines listed in the same entry, which is 16pts. That is how much GW claims they're worth. Subtract that x4 from the squad price and you have the cost of the sergeant. He consistently costs 10pts more than the regular squad members in practically every squad where a sergeant's statline is different from the normal unit members (all except the regular bike squad in which he's 15pts more). That is the defacto cost of a sergeant upgrade if you plan on using any semblance of fairness in your comparison. Your "math" charges the same for a regular marine as the sergeant... if you're going to be incorrect then you might as well be consistent and apply the same reasoning to the DE wyches you're using in the comparision (and charge only 2pts for the hexatrix upgrade instead of the 10 you're using). Either way, powerfists aren't the point of this thread so I'll leave your faux math alone after this.
Lets look at a list of things 6th did to DE: 1). Everyone has the Jink save that DE had to pay for in 5th 2). Open topped fast vehicles with low armor suck more than last edition 3). CC got nerfed for just about any non AV3 based army 4). Fleet got nerfed 5). Overwatch mows us down on charge due to AP. Trust me, just loosing 3 girls on the charge makes a HUGE difference in this army. 6). FNP got nerfed and so did cover saves 7). We cant assult from the WWP meaning it is very hard to get our cc units into the fray 8). Furious Charge got nerfed. 9). Unlike most MEQ armies we have to pay for our grenades.
Even if you remove the "balance" issue and go with GW "cinematic" view this army now operates nothing like the fluff written for the army. They are supposed to be lithe, fast, and sneak up on you. Instead they die in their own deployment zone. I could give a crap about the ap2 stuff. The reality is it is nigh impossible to get the cc oriented army anywhere close to the terminators. At least give the FNP (4+) rule back to the grotesque to make them half worth taking.
I'll respond to those each by number to add a bit of a wider perspective to the points made rather than just from a jaded dark eldar point of view.
1) You lost nothing but instead gained something. If everyone gets the jink save then you get it too and don't have to pay for the upgrade. Did other skimmers/bikes get better? Sure. Did yours get worse? Absolutely not, they also got better as you just saved yourself the points that you would have used for the upgrade. 2) All vehicles got a bit of a nerf in this edition but frankly DE vehicles got LESS of a nerf than other armies relatively. DE vehicles (due to being open topped) can still have passengers assault after disembarking whereas all the regular vehicle armies completely lost that ability. Skimmers in general got a boost relative to land vehicles due to the FREE jink save you get now. Overall, they're still worse than before but the DE crop of vehicles have taken much less of a hit than say their light eldar brethren. It's like complaining that you stubbed your toe when everyone had it amputated. 3) Close combat got nerfed period regardless of save. DE don't suffer from the new combat rules any more than marines do other than with overwatch (see below). 4) Agreed, fleet got nerfed. No arguments there. 5) Overwatch is overrated. You lose an average of ONE warrior charging a terminator squad and two versus an average tact squad. If you're consistently losing three gals every time you charge, you need to stop charging those heavy bolter devastators or completely full tactical squads with flamers and heavy bolters immediately and find another tactic. Is it a nerf? Sure, but its not the game changer/ender you're indicating. 6) Yes, cover saves got nerfed. I'd argue that FNP is a mild nerf for DE (and a roughly lateral change for MEQs) as you get a lower bonus but you get it more frequently. 7) No one can assault from reserves barring a special rule (which only two units I know of have). This also affects wolf scouts, any reserves coming from your board edge, outflankers, etc. Its not a DE specific nerf but rather an overall game rule change that applies equally to most every army. 8) Furious charge did get nerfed but, realistically, it doesn't affect you at all. Your basic trooper has I5 which is higher than 9/10 armies you'll likely face. You weren't using the extra +1 initiative so lamenting its loss is a bit strange since you're still going first without it in the vast majority of cases. 9) Not sure why you included this one in your list of why DE suck in 6e. Did that somehow change? Either way, it's not technically true. Half your units that are eligible for grenades get them free.
Mind you, I'm not claiming that Dark Eldar have somehow gotten better in this edition but simply that the changes aren't as devastating as the chicken little posts in this thread are shouting about. I haven't seen anything posted in this thread that would lead me to believe that they need a special cupcake change to the basic rules to compete with the other armies (like having the common power weapons magically become ap2 again).
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Nvs wrote:Pyriel, Incubi have no ranged attack, cost more than a SM,can no longer assault from a vehicle the turn they disembark, can't assault from a webway portal, have no grenades, and are still T3.
I think he means that incubi, as well as wyches, can no longer effectively assault from a transport. Before with the old fleet, they could get 7+" compared to now they can 12/21 chance for the same difference. You also can no longer disembark if you move more than 6", another half foot gone.
I swear the next person who mentions cupcake better buy me a damn cupcake, I'm getting hungry.
Honestly I don't care if the huskblade gets AP 2 or if the agonizer get's AP 2, it's not like my nids had a lot of those +2s in the first place. From a space marine (Codex SM) perspective, I don't care either. My codex is so terrible at this point it's ridiculous, unless I build very specifically. But I would like to point out that wyches are still good with how FNP now works combined with their CC invul making them rather tough and overwatch is rather meh. They still throw out a ton of attacks and with either +1 S or +1 A drugs they're still just as good in that respect. Their sheer volume can take out several termies alone. You should also be outnumbering termies considerably.
acekevin8412 wrote:I think he means that incubi, as well as wyches, can no longer effectively assault from a transport. Before with the old fleet, they could get 7+" compared to now they can 12/21 chance for the same difference. You also can no longer disembark if you move more than 6", another half foot gone.
Correct, their effective range is effectively half of what it was (not quite, but not a math person).
But yea, I'll just wait till the FAQ is updated so we can revive this thread talking about how it wasn't enough.
Lol, you call my logic absurb yet include the price of the upgrade character and weapon but compare it only to a different weapon but skip that character's upgrade cost. Way to go there, Mr. Spock!
I skipped his cost because the vet sgt in the marine codex has no upgrade cost anymore. Get it? You can't separate the sgt cost as it's built into the cost of the base 5 models. This also factors in the cost of grenades...and I haven't even mentioned that point because quite frankly, it's irrelevant in this instance...but if we are then the cost of the wyche will be 12pts. per model instead of 10pts.
That's true only if you completely ignore the price for the standard marines listed in the same entry, which is 16pts.
But in this case you do ignore that... as your "buy in" for the base unit is 4 marines + a vet sgt to begin with...at one cost (even at a discount when you factor in the two grenade types and the free pistol you get now) In the case of the wyche squad, I have to buy 5 first, then grenades, then a hekatrix, then weapon upgrades for the unit and/or the hekatrix. So going by your logic...the 5 marines are 16pts (16x5=80) and it's + 10pts for the sgt upgrade...which gets you to 90pts base for the unit entry. That means your Vet sgt is 26pts base. Okay, now a hekatrix with grenades is 22pts. (10 +10+ 2=22). A four pt difference...but a superior stat line and access to a better AP2 weapon. Add in an agonizer and she's now 42pts. A marine Sgt with a fist is 51pts...but has a far great advantage to use said fist vs. a wider array of units. The hekatrix does not. But let's ignore those points much like you've ignored my other ones.
Either way, powerfists aren't the point of this thread so I'll leave your faux math alone after this.
You're right, but you made it about that by bringing the marine comparison into the mix. Agonizers and Huskblades possibly becoming AP2 is a good thing...not a bad thing. It basically allows for a high cost, low AP weapon to be in the DE wargear list...which is similar to a powerfist in terms of the targets they usually are directed towards...high Toughness low save units. Right now, an equivalent type weapon is on only on 3 special characters (which are over priced and mostly suck) and a squad upgrade to a unit that completely sucks for it's cost. Lastly, the new 6th ed. power weapon option is somewhat redundant and makes no sense when compared to the other weapon options that these units can take...a point I've made that you've completely overlooked. It's a hamfisted way of doing things.
I'll respond to those each by number to add a bit of a wider perspective to the points made rather than just from a jaded dark eldar point of view.
1) You lost nothing but instead gained something. If everyone gets the jink save then you get it too and don't have to pay for the upgrade. Did other skimmers/bikes get better? Sure. Did yours get worse? Absolutely not, they also got better as you just saved yourself the points that you would have used for the upgrade.
2) All vehicles got a bit of a nerf in this edition but frankly DE vehicles got LESS of a nerf than other armies relatively. DE vehicles (due to being open topped) can still have passengers assault after disembarking whereas all the regular vehicle armies completely lost that ability. Skimmers in general got a boost relative to land vehicles due to the FREE jink save you get now. Overall, they're still worse than before but the DE crop of vehicles have taken much less of a hit than say their light eldar brethren. It's like complaining that you stubbed your toe when everyone had it amputated.
3) Close combat got nerfed period regardless of save. DE don't suffer from the new combat rules any more than marines do other than with overwatch (see below).
4) Agreed, fleet got nerfed. No arguments there.
5) Overwatch is overrated. You lose an average of ONE warrior charging a terminator squad and two versus an average tact squad. If you're consistently losing three gals every time you charge, you need to stop charging those heavy bolter devastators or completely full tactical squads with flamers and heavy bolters immediately and find another tactic. Is it a nerf? Sure, but its not the game changer/ender you're indicating.
6) Yes, cover saves got nerfed. I'd argue that FNP is a mild nerf for DE (and a roughly lateral change for MEQs) as you get a lower bonus but you get it more frequently.
7) No one can assault from reserves barring a special rule (which only two units I know of have). This also affects wolf scouts, any reserves coming from your board edge, outflankers, etc. Its not a DE specific nerf but rather an overall game rule change that applies equally to most every army.
8) Furious charge did get nerfed but, realistically, it doesn't affect you at all. Your basic trooper has I5 which is higher than 9/10 armies you'll likely face. You weren't using the extra +1 initiative so lamenting its loss is a bit strange since you're still going first without it in the vast majority of cases.
9) Not sure why you included this one in your list of why DE suck in 6e. Did that somehow change? Either way, it's not technically true. Half your units that are eligible for grenades get them free.
I'm sure Fishboy will respond with his own comments, but I'll add mine and point out how out of touch you are with this game and how DE play in this edition..it's actually comical:
1) The jink save is overrated and more often than not you are getting hit with so many shots now that rapid fire ranges increase...that it is a token rule at best. Gee thanks GW for giving me a jink save...but I now eat more shooting thus it's a fething wash...derp...and it is still worthless vs. weapons/ units that can ignore cover.
2) Lolz...we now pay more for a vehicle that does less than it did in 5th...and is more dangerous to the occupants when it explodes now. Way to go genius. I can't actually believe you are saying DE skimmers didn't lose much...LOL. Comical.
3) BWAHAHAHAHA! Okay...this is a funny one. Really? Let's see...60% of our codex is based on assault type units...and paying premiums to deliver them. That's gone now. The fundamental way DE waged war (how the codex was designed) cannot be done in this edition. WWPs, assaulting from reserves (something they used quite extensively) is all gone now. Hell you can't even put your whole army in reserve anymore..as that was a hallmark tactic of the army. These are things you continuously overlook when the point is made...again..comical.
4) Wow. Shocking. We agree on something 5) Yeah...overwatch is sure overrated with those tactical units toting free flamers...or buttload of multishot weapons units have now. Pair that with the "no armor save" wyches have and yeah...that matters..especially since the shots are taken before the roll to assault is made. Losing one or two wyches is a big deal as that's 3-6 attacks I'm not making.
6) FnP a "mild" nerf to DE? Really? Because like it was sooo awesome before...LOL. Not really. Getting drilled by str6+ hurts even more now that cover saves has gone down...that basically means more often than not...you are just picking models off the table. Add into the fact that it's actually also harder to acquire pain tokens now. Remember how CC got nerfed? Guess how you got the majority of your tokens, ace?
7) LOLz. Vangard, Ymgarls, and Zagstruck + stormboyz are the only units that can do it just in case you were wondering. However, the DEWWPshould have allowedDE units to as well. It could have been easily fixed with one additional sentence. Now, we are stuck with a 35pt piece of wargear and 60% of the codex that could use it, sitting on the sidelines. Fun times.
8) It did affect us because it allowed some of our units to strike at higher initiative units like IC's, Genestealers...or gasp...other DE or Eldar armies.
9) Yeah...most of them are on units that usually don't survive long vs. the improved shooting most armies got with their rapid fire weapons. This is a premeasuring game. It's not hard to keep DE assault units at bay now that they lost the ability to alpha strike...which what the codex was designed around.
Yeah, let's just go back to all shooty DE...because we missed playing that so much. Let's forget about how a codex that is only 18 months old is actually worse than codexes that are older than it is...
CaptKaruthors wrote:
I'm sure Fishboy will respond with his own comments, but I'll add mine and point out how out of touch you are with this game and how DE play in this edition..it's actually comical:
1) The jink save is overrated and more often than not you are getting hit with so many shots now that rapid fire ranges increase...that it is a token rule at best. Gee thanks GW for giving me a jink save...but I now eat more shooting thus it's a fething wash...derp...and it is still worthless vs. weapons/ units that can ignore cover.
2) Lolz...we now pay more for a vehicle that does less than it did in 5th...and is more dangerous to the occupants when it explodes now. Way to go genius. I can't actually believe you are saying DE skimmers didn't lose much...LOL. Comical.
3) BWAHAHAHAHA! Okay...this is a funny one. Really? Let's see...60% of our codex is based on assault type units...and paying premiums to deliver them. That's gone now. The fundamental way DE waged war (how the codex was designed) cannot be done in this edition. WWPs, assaulting from reserves (something they used quite extensively) is all gone now. Hell you can't even put your whole army in reserve anymore..as that was a hallmark tactic of the army. These are things you continuously overlook when the point is made...again..comical.
4) Wow. Shocking. We agree on something 5) Yeah...overwatch is sure overrated with those tactical units toting free flamers...or buttload of multishot weapons units have now. Pair that with the "no armor save" wyches have and yeah...that matters..especially since the shots are taken before the roll to assault is made. Losing one or two wyches is a big deal as that's 3-6 attacks I'm not making.
6) FnP a "mild" nerf to DE? Really? Because like it was sooo awesome before...LOL. Not really. Getting drilled by str6+ hurts even more now that cover saves has gone down...that basically means more often than not...you are just picking models off the table. Add into the fact that it's actually also harder to acquire pain tokens now. Remember how CC got nerfed? Guess how you got the majority of your tokens, ace?
7) LOLz. Vangard, Ymgarls, and Zagstruck + stormboyz are the only units that can do it just in case you were wondering. However, the DEWWPshould have allowedDE units to as well. It could have been easily fixed with one additional sentence. Now, we are stuck with a 35pt piece of wargear and 60% of the codex that could use it, sitting on the sidelines. Fun times.
8) It did affect us because it allowed some of our units to strike at higher initiative units like IC's, Genestealers...or gasp...other DE or Eldar armies.
9) Yeah...most of them are on units that usually don't survive long vs. the improved shooting most armies got with their rapid fire weapons. This is a premeasuring game. It's not hard to keep DE assault units at bay now that they lost the ability to alpha strike...which what the codex was designed around.
Yeah, let's just go back to all shooty DE...because we missed playing that so much. Let's forget about how a codex that is only 18 months old is actually worse than codexes that are older than it is...
1) And yet he's complaining about getting it which was my point. The jink is a moderate FREE BENEFIT that effectively gives you another hull point over the course of a game versus glancing hits and a 1/3 chance to simply ignore pens simply by doing what you would have done anyways... which is move. Its not a game changer but yet he was complaining that he got something for nothing because other armies got to share in the frosting on the special cupcake.
2) How do you pay more now? I didn't see an erratta line saying their cost went up. Is this just more of the new math from earlier in the thread? As for doing less, yes, they are worse at certain things like disembarking troops (although the nerf they got compared to other transports is miniscule) and can be glanced to death (which is now the case with every vehicle and frankly was always possible for them even before in one shot). But they also got better at surviving pens due to jinks and the new damage chart versus most weapons and they also got a 50% speed boost with going flat out plus longer disembarkation distance which helps make up for the shorter charges and fleet...plus every glancing damage roll doesn't knock out your vehicles' firing any more. Take the blinders off and look at the whole picture instead of just focusing on what got worse.
3) Guess what? My assaulty blood angels in their rhinos got nerfed a hell of alot more than your dark eldar since they can't ever disembark and assault. Ailarios's assaulty IG got nerfed too with the new rules on precision shots. Assault got nerfed overall for everyone and is not a DE specific thing. You'll simply have to adjust your tactics like everyone else.
5) You must have a wierd meta in your area as I've rarely seen flamers over the past 5 years. Did flamers get better? Sure. Will people be using them more? Sure. Will every squad simply just abandon every other weapon and just pick them up to the exclusion of everything else? No. Meltas were popular in 5th but that didn't mean that they were the only gun you saw on the table. You just have to think a bit more prior to charging instead of just attacking like a rabid dog at the first thing you encounter. Soften up the unit and try to precision shot out the weapon that is most dangerous to you.
7) I said a few units could charge out of deepstrike so at least we agree on that. The difference between them and the WWP is that their charge was limited ONLY to the unit in question and not a method for whole sections of your army to appear. Taking vanguard does mean that your terminators can charge out of the deepstrike. There is a huge gulf in possible balance shift on the tabletop when you compare the two and I don't see a problem in allowing a much more limited form of one and not the practically unlimited form of the other. If they *JUST* nerfed charging from reserve to the webway portal then I'd agree but that is a global change to reserves and the gear still has tons of uses for claiming/contesting objectives as well as positioning units. You just need to modify WHICH units use it for maximum benefit instead of just dumping out each and every unit from it.
8) Thanks for proving my point. You've listed your own army and one much maligned unit for a single codex as "proof" of why you needed an initiative boost for an army that has the highest average initiative in the game. As for eldar, your grunts are already faster than eldar grunts and even tie most of the elite eldar units in initiative. I'm noticing a theme... you simply want the DE to be the bestest evAR in every case apparently. I can't really blame you but I think that's an unfair and frankly childish stance to take. Dark Eldar complaining about their initiative is about as genuine a gripe as Deathwing complaining about their average save.
9) Your response really doesn't address what he or I said. He said he had to pay for grenades and I said that the statement was about as true as it was untrue. Only half pay anything for them.
Wow, the thread exploded overnight.... Anyways, I'll comment on some of what I've been seeing:
Either make Agonisers i1, make power fists i4, or keep agonisers as ap 3:
Your kidding. Have you ever seen how many wounds an agoniser causes, 1, if your lucky, 2. Now a power fist, say 3 hit, all 3 wound unless your really unlucky, then its 2. 4+ wound isn't really all its cracked up to be, it justs allows our s3 guys to hurt MEQs. So no way will we sacrifice our speed advantage for a watered down power fist.
Klaives Should ap 2:
Debatable, as they are carrying huge blades, not puny human weapons (Hulk reference :3 ). Still, we'd be bombarded with comments consisting of only, "Cheese". It would be nice to see incubi, which can cost over 200 points, return to their heyday.
Wyches aren't the best Termie Hunters:
It really depends, a 4++ and possible feel no pain, and maybe a turn of furious charge, could whittle a termie squad down to shreds, or if nothing else, just tarpit them until they have no use whatsoever. Maybe if you got lucky with drugs and they were high on pain, they could hurt termies.
To wrap up, I would like a webway portal FAQ, maybe somthing like you can charge out of it, but it counts as disordered (No charging bonus) as this allows portals to be viable options but still has its risks should it be executed and prevents Cheese. Of course, if they don't update it, I don't really care, its just one DE list that is no longer viable for use (and kinda makes our 2 MCs useless)
acekevin8412 wrote:I think he means that incubi, as well as wyches, can no longer effectively assault from a transport. Before with the old fleet, they could get 7+" compared to now they can 12/21 chance for the same difference. You also can no longer disembark if you move more than 6", another half foot gone.
Correct, their effective range is effectively half of what it was (not quite, but not a math person).
But yea, I'll just wait till the FAQ is updated so we can revive this thread talking about how it wasn't enough.
There is a HUGE difference between what you said (they can't assault) and what you apparently meant (they just don't assault as well as before). This thread is heated enough with karuthor's exaggerations and off beat mathematical analysis that we probably don't need more misunderstandings.
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quilava1 wrote:
Klaives Should ap 2:
Debatable, as they are carrying huge blades, not puny human weapons (Hulk reference :3 ). Still, we'd be bombarded with comments consisting of only, "Cheese". It would be nice to see incubi, which can cost over 200 points, return to their heyday.
If that was what people were clammoring for then I don't think there would be as much opposition. Incubi are a elite heavy unit with an impressive looking weapon whose fluff and looks back up the possibility of defeating 2+ armor. Instead, people are clamoring for a barbed flail with itty bitty hooks available to every normal character almost to penetrate the heaviest armor in the galaxy.
1) And yet he's complaining about getting it which was my point. The jink is a moderate FREE BENEFIT that effectively gives you another hull point over the course of a game versus glancing hits and a 1/3 chance to simply ignore pens simply by doing what you would have done anyways... which is move. Its not a game changer but yet he was complaining that he got something for nothing because other armies got to share in the frosting on the special cupcake.
LOLz. Okay, so because other armies get a similar benefit...we should just STFU and like it? We already pay more than we should for vehicles that die easier. Additionally, how is this awesome new rule helping if we go second? Yeah, I know what you'll say. "Just use cover" well cover saves got worse and the fire power output got greater. If anything it's a lateral shift in benefit.
2) How do you pay more now? I didn't see an erratta line saying their cost went up. Is this just more of the new math from earlier in the thread?
Paying more in the context of 6th edition compared to 5th. The transport is simply too expensive in the context of 6th edition for all that it lost. Try to keep up.
As for doing less, yes, they are worse at certain things like disembarking troops (although the nerf they got compared to other transports is miniscule) and can be glanced to death (which is now the case with every vehicle and frankly was always possible for them even before in one shot). But they also got better at surviving pens due to jinks and the new damage chart versus most weapons and they also got a 50% speed boost with going flat out plus longer disembarkation distance which helps make up for the shorter charges and fleet...plus every glancing damage roll doesn't knock out your vehicles' firing any more. Take the blinders off and look at the whole picture instead of just focusing on what got worse.
How did they get better at surviving pens? Really? LOL. No they didn't. They actually got worse. We had a save in 5th with a FF save. AP2 weapons crush Raiders more than ever now that plasma guns are en vogue again. But believe whatever you want. You are in the minority in this case.
3) Guess what? My assaulty blood angels in their rhinos got nerfed a hell of alot more than your dark eldar since they can't ever disembark and assault.
Oh, cry me a river with your rhinos that get 35pt price break when assault marines take them. Must be nice having a 15pt vehicle that got faster in this edition zipping your units around the table.
Ailarios's assaulty IG got nerfed too with the new rules on precision shots.
With the amount of LoS! rolls he can take with that army..I don't really see how precision shots will matter much.
Assault got nerfed overall for everyone and is not a DE specific thing. You'll simply have to adjust your tactics like everyone else.
You keep saying that, but it's funny when your 5th edition codex was designed with that in mind as a strategy. Now it's all about loading up on shooting. Yay? We had that before the updated codex. God forbid we have some variety in the book.
5) You must have a wierd meta in your area as I've rarely seen flamers over the past 5 years. Did flamers get better? Sure. Will people be using them more?
Free D3 hits in overwatch? You bet I've seen a shift in list options. I have one of the toughest metas as there are a lot of top players in the area as other can attest.
Sure. Will every squad simply just abandon every other weapon and just pick them up to the exclusion of everything else? No. Meltas were popular in 5th but that didn't mean that they were the only gun you saw on the table. You just have to think a bit more prior to charging instead of just attacking like a rabid dog at the first thing you encounter. Soften up the unit and try to precision shot out the weapon that is most dangerous to you.
LOLz. Okay...whatever. Hey, anyone else wanna explain to this guy how that is easier said than done with DE? Who am I precision striking with? What character gets a ranged weapon that's worth a feth?
7) I said a few units could charge out of deepstrike so at least we agree on that. The difference between them and the WWP is that their charge was limited ONLY to the unit in question and not a method for whole sections of your army to appear.
But that's just it. The WWP was designed with that in mind. If they allowed vehicles to pass through it again it may be worth it as it works now. Sadly, that will never happen. The core design scheme of this codex doesn't match the new rules...and as a result the DE suffers for it.
If they *JUST* nerfed charging from reserve to the webway portal then I'd agree but that is a global change to reserves and the gear still has tons of uses for claiming/contesting objectives as well as positioning units. You just need to modify WHICH units use it for maximum benefit instead of just dumping out each and every unit from it.
It would have been easier just to fix the portal period. Double the cost but allow assaults...something. The FAQ'd the crap out of the Templars and DA codex. Changing the WWP entry isn't a difficult task.
8) Thanks for proving my point. You've listed your own army and one much maligned unit for a single codex as "proof" of why you needed an initiative boost for an army that has the highest average initiative in the game. As for eldar, your grunts are already faster than eldar grunts and even tie most of the elite eldar units in initiative. I'm noticing a theme... you simply want the DE to be the bestest evAR in every case apparently.
No, I actually want the army to play the way it was meant to be played. But nice attempt to troll.
I can't really blame you but I think that's an unfair and frankly childish stance to take. Dark Eldar complaining about their initiative is about as genuine a gripe as Deathwing complaining about their average save.
Childish? You mean like trolling a DE thread telling DE players to quite their whining? Okay. We as DE players waited 13 years for a codex...finally get one...only for it to be completely made impotent 18 months later. I think we've earned the right to complain.
9) Your response really doesn't address what he or I said. He said he had to pay for grenades and I said that the statement was about as true as it was untrue. Only half pay anything for them.
For the majority of the dedicated DE assault units in the game...yes he is correct..you have to pay for them...and some of the units don't get the option at all...unless you attach a character with a phantasm.
Either way, I'm done debating with someone that is clueless. I hate to admit it but even guys like Stelek agree that DE got the royal shaft. We can't all be wrong, can we? I think not.
1) And yet he's complaining about getting it which was my point. The jink is a moderate FREE BENEFIT that effectively gives you another hull point over the course of a game versus glancing hits and a 1/3 chance to simply ignore pens simply by doing what you would have done anyways... which is move. Its not a game changer but yet he was complaining that he got something for nothing because other armies got to share in the frosting on the special cupcake.
LOLz. Okay, so because other armies get a similar benefit...we should just STFU and like it? We already pay more than we should for vehicles that die easier.
2) How do you pay more now? I didn't see an erratta line saying their cost went up. Is this just more of the new math from earlier in the thread?
Paying more in the context of 6th edition compared to 5th. The transport is simply too expensive in the context of 6th edition for all that it lost. Try to keep up.
Complaining about a benefit that you get for free is not a valid complaint as you're paying NOTHING and getting SOMETHING. You of course missed the point like usual. As for #2, your faux math rears its ugly head again. You "pay more in the context of 6th edition compared to 5th"? Lol, that makes no sense. You're paying the exact same amount and now you're trying to spin some deeper meaning onto your blatantly untrue simple statement of transports costing more. At best, you're paying the same for less value but obviously I disagree about that since I consider the pros and cons of 6e vehicles as opposed to the single minded focus you have only on the bad to the exclusion of all else. Also, if you used the FF upgrade in the past then you're actually paying less as you're saving 10pts and getting almost the same effect. Either way, in NO case are you paying more.
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CaptKaruthors wrote:How did they get better at surviving pens? Really? LOL. No they didn't. They actually got worse. We had a save in 5th with a FF save. AP2 weapons crush Raiders more than ever now that plasma guns are en vogue again. But believe whatever you want. You are in the minority in this case.
You now get that save FOR FREE. If you're doing a skimmer heavy force that actually used it, you can now afford another skimmer or other target for the points you're saving which means less fire for the existing ones. That bonus also makes the transports more survivable because NOT EVERYONE took that upgrade but they all get it now FOR FREE when they simply move. As for the weapons, wrong again. AP1 is no deadlier to you this edition than last... it's actually slightly less deadly technically. In 5th, your raider hit by a melta got one-shot-killed on a roll of 3+ for pens and 6 for glances. The pens are identical now as you still only die on a roll of 3+ (ap1 is a +2 but the 5 wrecked roll is gone now so the result is the same); the difference is that now you CAN'T be one-shot killed by a glance meaning whereas previously you could. AP2 is identical to what it was as it went up 1 on pens but the 5 wrecked is gone; both editions have plasma guns kill you on 4+. AP3 dropped in deadliness since before it could kill you on a 4+ whereas now it needs a 5+. On top of this, you now get a free 5+ cover save which means that 1/3 of all non-template shots that previously killed you just disappear this edition. Your vehicles just got more survivable or stayed the same for all pens.
CaptKaruthors wrote:Either way, I'm done debating with someone that is clueless.
Finally we agree on something else although I suspect that we each have a different idea on who is Alicia Silverstone. In the end, it doesn't matter how much of a special cupcake you want your Dark Eldar to be as GW doesn't listen to either of us. It'll be interesting to see what if any changes the next batch of FAQs bring. See you in a few weeks/months!
Lets look at a list of things 6th did to DE:
1). Everyone has the Jink save that DE had to pay for in 5th
2). Open topped fast vehicles with low armor suck more than last edition
3). CC got nerfed for just about any non AV3 based army
4). Fleet got nerfed
5). Overwatch mows us down on charge due to AP. Trust me, just loosing 3 girls on the charge makes a HUGE difference in this army.
6). FNP got nerfed and so did cover saves
7). We cant assult from the WWP meaning it is very hard to get our cc units into the fray
8). Furious Charge got nerfed.
9). Unlike most MEQ armies we have to pay for our grenades.
Even if you remove the "balance" issue and go with GW "cinematic" view this army now operates nothing like the fluff written for the army. They are supposed to be lithe, fast, and sneak up on you. Instead they die in their own deployment zone.
I could give a crap about the ap2 stuff. The reality is it is nigh impossible to get the cc oriented army anywhere close to the terminators. At least give the FNP (4+) rule back to the grotesque to make them half worth taking.
I'll respond to those each by number to add a bit of a wider perspective to the points made rather than just from a jaded dark eldar point of view.
1) You lost nothing but instead gained something. If everyone gets the jink save then you get it too and don't have to pay for the upgrade. Did other skimmers/bikes get better? Sure. Did yours get worse? Absolutely not, they also got better as you just saved yourself the points that you would have used for the upgrade.
2) All vehicles got a bit of a nerf in this edition but frankly DE vehicles got LESS of a nerf than other armies relatively. DE vehicles (due to being open topped) can still have passengers assault after disembarking whereas all the regular vehicle armies completely lost that ability. Skimmers in general got a boost relative to land vehicles due to the FREE jink save you get now. Overall, they're still worse than before but the DE crop of vehicles have taken much less of a hit than say their light eldar brethren. It's like complaining that you stubbed your toe when everyone had it amputated.
3) Close combat got nerfed period regardless of save. DE don't suffer from the new combat rules any more than marines do other than with overwatch (see below).
4) Agreed, fleet got nerfed. No arguments there.
5) Overwatch is overrated. You lose an average of ONE warrior charging a terminator squad and two versus an average tact squad. If you're consistently losing three gals every time you charge, you need to stop charging those heavy bolter devastators or completely full tactical squads with flamers and heavy bolters immediately and find another tactic. Is it a nerf? Sure, but its not the game changer/ender you're indicating.
6) Yes, cover saves got nerfed. I'd argue that FNP is a mild nerf for DE (and a roughly lateral change for MEQs) as you get a lower bonus but you get it more frequently.
7) No one can assault from reserves barring a special rule (which only two units I know of have). This also affects wolf scouts, any reserves coming from your board edge, outflankers, etc. Its not a DE specific nerf but rather an overall game rule change that applies equally to most every army.
8) Furious charge did get nerfed but, realistically, it doesn't affect you at all. Your basic trooper has I5 which is higher than 9/10 armies you'll likely face. You weren't using the extra +1 initiative so lamenting its loss is a bit strange since you're still going first without it in the vast majority of cases.
9) Not sure why you included this one in your list of why DE suck in 6e. Did that somehow change? Either way, it's not technically true. Half your units that are eligible for grenades get them free.
Mind you, I'm not claiming that Dark Eldar have somehow gotten better in this edition but simply that the changes aren't as devastating as the chicken little posts in this thread are shouting about. I haven't seen anything posted in this thread that would lead me to believe that they need a special cupcake change to the basic rules to compete with the other armies (like having the common power weapons magically become ap2 again).
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Nvs wrote:Pyriel, Incubi have no ranged attack, cost more than a SM,can no longer assault from a vehicle the turn they disembark, can't assault from a webway portal, have no grenades, and are still T3.
Why can't they assault?
Okay now let me respond to your response. Not to take a jab at you here but you are basing all your logic on a "marine" mentality. Most Xenos are not as survivable due to weapons, armour saves, or leadership.
1). Great, everyone can now get the jink save that made me special. Why again does my armor 10 vehicle cost more that that armor 11 rhino? Oh yeah I am fast but can only move as fast as the rhino if I wish to get out. Oh wait I can assult this turn....but we all agree assult was nerfed so...hmmm....why again? DE may not have lost here but everyone else gained thereby moving the standard.
2). DE got EXTREME nerfs to their vehicles this game. Open topped +1 on damage chart, AP1 is +2 on the damage chart so if you pen us (easy) with an AP1 weapon we are dead...period. Remember this isnt a 35 point Rhino that can self repair. Its a paper air plane that goes down to bolter fire and when it does the guys inside rarely and barely get an armour save so guys die. With the low leaderships they also run and are pinned more often...but hey at least they auto rally...wait that is the space marines...hmmmm
3). DE do suffer more with the new CC rules as do most low armor xenos species. With the new rules we can not get to the enemy. Our WWP are useles, our vehicles die fast, and our armour save and lack of cover make it even harder. Random charges mean we really have to unzip our flys and take all the chances...but hey at least you get to shoot at us first....We do not have horde units that are good in CC like orks and nids and we are not fearless either...oh wait if we kill 3 units we become fearless...except we never get there to kill them.
4). We see eye to eye here.
5). Overwatch is overrated for marines but for Xenos not so much. You forget that most DE do not get armour saves against shooting. If I am in charge range you are in rapid fire range. If you have the standard flamer there is an extra D3 hits. I dare not charge Orks with their 60 shots, cant charge burna boyz, cant charge Lootas, cant charge purifyers or other GK, hordes of guard squads are deadly, and the typical space marine squad is even scary. Dont forget most things wound me on a 3+ and I get no save.
6). Cover saves got nerfed more than just the 4+ to a 5+. Remember that the closest model dies first and my army has to get close to you to do its job. This means the closest model is typically the one NOT in cover so I typically do NOT get a save. Before it was majority so I could hold some guys back and try to get closer but now I have to close the gap and take a chance which is rarely a good tactic. If my guys cost 5 points each and had 30 in a squad...no problem. But I have 10-15 and dont get saves in most cases. There are also a LOT of S6 weapons out there making my FNP useless as well.
7). Again the no assault from reserves crushed the DE webway tactic. We needed this to actually get people there or get closer especially in the coven list. Even from the "cinematic" view this does not make any sense for the DE and it was never overpowering.
8). I typically run a coven list so my I is 4 and the only way I get nades is if I take an Archon. Wyches have I6 and grenades but the typical I5 warrior squad has to buy grenades (i think it is 25 points per squad on the squad leader). If that squad leader dies no more nades. But that is okay because marines hand out grenades like candy...oh and for free.
9). You are very wrong here.
Understand that I am not not giving you math hammer results. I am giving you consistent game results in 6th edition WITH DE!! What bothers me the most is your replies are so arrogant and matter of fact yet you dont even play the army. Here is an idea for you...play your precious space marines. Take 3 points off per model and remove their armour save and grenades. Try playing a few games like that and maybe reality will set in. I too play Eldar and it is an entirely different comparison between the two armies. To say you play Tau and that is a fair comparison is also wrong. Both Eldar and Tau can be set up to be very shooty and mobile armies which is what this edition is all about.
Edit: I was also floored by your response that nobody takes flamers.....where the heck do you play?!?! The only area's I see flamers non-existent are in areas where EVERYONE plays an MEQ list and there are no guard or Xenos (and this is a VERY rare area).
There sure seems to be a lot of saltyness regarding potential good news for Dark Eldar, despite the fact that the actual thread title is "Good News for DE" and it's all just guesses right now.
Myself, I'll wait until the FAQ gets revised and see how much damage GW does.
Fishboy wrote:Lets look at a list of things 6th did to DE:
1). Everyone has the Jink save that DE had to pay for in 5th
2). Open topped fast vehicles with low armor suck more than last edition
3). CC got nerfed for just about any non AV3 based army
4). Fleet got nerfed
5). Overwatch mows us down on charge due to AP. Trust me, just loosing 3 girls on the charge makes a HUGE difference in this army.
6). FNP got nerfed and so did cover saves
7). We cant assult from the WWP meaning it is very hard to get our cc units into the fray
8). Furious Charge got nerfed.
9). Unlike most MEQ armies we have to pay for our grenades.
Even if you remove the "balance" issue and go with GW "cinematic" view this army now operates nothing like the fluff written for the army. They are supposed to be lithe, fast, and sneak up on you. Instead they die in their own deployment zone.
I could give a crap about the ap2 stuff. The reality is it is nigh impossible to get the cc oriented army anywhere close to the terminators. At least give the FNP (4+) rule back to the grotesque to make them half worth taking.
1) Ok, so don't buy the upgrade. Alternatively, buy said upgrade and not move. Other armies still require movement to claim the jink.
2) How so? Can still assault? Can fire from them? Oh wait, it's because you can't 1st turn charge right?
3) I don't know about that, my nob biker list would disagree.
4) Sure it got nerfed in that you lose d6 movement but you gained a rerollable 2D6 charge. I'm sure you would rather be able to shoot and still cover the same distance you could last edition right?
5) Overwatch guns down any army. If a unit has too many guns why don't you shoot it first to reduce quantity of said guns?
6) I'd argue FNP got better for DE. Oh noes it's only a 5+... Oh wait i get it against everything but ID now.
7) Oh noes, no more chance to assault without a response... Because charging and/or decimating things before your opponent can respond was much more fair.
8) Damn, my high initiative army lost a boost to the already above average stats. It affects you less than BA but they aren't rioting.
9) Gotta pay for your S4 AP4 grenades? I'm pretty sure they are better than frags and haywires are equally better than kraks. AFAIK you pay for premium products.
Sure there are many issues that have affected DE but they also affect every other list. DA didn't demand FAQ eliteness when RW speeders lost their jink.
1st turn assaults were a hugely unbalanced aspect of the game utilised heavily by DE. It addressed game balance issues in favor of other armies so i understand why it's not fair for the DE...
Overwatch is the 40k equivalent of WFBs horde rule, guys get shot? get more guys.
Fleet actually benefits DE in the new rules as you lost D6 in the shoot phase but gain rerolls on charge (now 2D6) and runs, and the ability to shoot in the shooting phase with pistols and assault weapons which DE assaulty stuff has lots of... anyone else benefit like that?
Before a HB would kill your guys dead, atleast now you get a chance with new FNP.
As i said your grenades are better than most MEQ grenades so why shouldn't you pay for them?
Jamin go ahead and take a look at all the responses to the responses to the responses
That should catch you up and not require me to respond hehe.
And how are DE nades better?!!?! Offensive are offensive and defensive are defensive....are you sure your not looking at the Haywire nades that we have to pay for as well as our O&D nades?!?!
1) Ok, so don't buy the upgrade. Alternatively, buy said upgrade and not move. Other armies still require movement to claim the jink.
Other armies getting Jink means DE firepower is reduced too, you know. And now De have to pay for an upgrade that becomes superfluous if you win initiative. Joy!
4) Sure it got nerfed in that you lose d6 movement but you gained a rerollable 2D6 charge. I'm sure you would rather be able to shoot and still cover the same distance you could last edition right?
Shooting before a long charge very likely means losing the charge. Enemy removing closest models plus you removing your front line from overwatch means a LOT of lost inches.
5) Overwatch guns down any army. If a unit has too many guns why don't you shoot it first to reduce quantity of said guns?
Overwatch hurts low-T, low-armor armies a lot more than marines. Most such armies have numbers, fearless and cheap volume to make up for that. DE does not. And if shooting is what kills units now, why not skip the assault and just go on shooting? Blasterborn Vanomspam all round, is that the plan?
6) I'd argue FNP got better for DE. Oh noes it's only a 5+... Oh wait i get it against everything but ID now.
Except it's rather easier to negate FNP for DE, as all you need is S6. Meaning Assault Cannons, plasma, autocannons...hell, everything above a heavy bolter will do it. Note that all such weapons still allow a marine to roll his FNP. Now revisit your point that says everyone suffers equally from overwatch, this time with a new understanding!
7) Oh noes, no more chance to assault without a response... Because charging and/or decimating things before your opponent can respond was much more fair.
Enemy armies usually have 2-3 turns to pre-emptively respond to my assault units making their way to the front line. You are the one who gets to shoot me without response, no matter what I do. Even if i pin you, you still fire overwatch.
8) Damn, my high initiative army lost a boost to the already above average stats. It affects you less than BA but they aren't rioting.
You do know that sometimes DE armies fight other De armies, right? The world doesn't revole around Marines. Ok...it DOES, but it shouldn't.
....
Before a HB would kill your guys dead, atleast now you get a chance with new FNP.
No. No it didn't. And we had a 4+ FNP save against it. And it didn't shoot at us automatically when we charged it. That Hb is way more dangerous now than it was before. Feel free to ignore this and all my other points in your next post!
Ah feel no pain, nerfed to eliminate sanguinary priest blobs and the spam they brought with them, in reality almost knocked an army out of competitive play BY ITSELF without the intended targets breaking a sweat. Thanks GW
This thread is cracking me up! Knowledgeable DE players pointing out painfully obvious flaws and imbalances based on repeated application of the army's mechanics to the new rule system,
versus SM fans spewing utter nonsense and making irrelevant observations based on... well nothing really. I don't think they know how hilarious they look.
They've stormed a thread full of people in 'the know' to wave their ignorance around for all to see.
I get the overwhelming feeling that 6th ed was play-tested exclusively with SM armies...
1) Ok, so don't buy the upgrade. Alternatively, buy said upgrade and not move. Other armies still require movement to claim the jink.
Other armies getting Jink means DE firepower is reduced too, you know. And now De have to pay for an upgrade that becomes superfluous if you win initiative. Joy!
4) Sure it got nerfed in that you lose d6 movement but you gained a rerollable 2D6 charge. I'm sure you would rather be able to shoot and still cover the same distance you could last edition right?
Shooting before a long charge very likely means losing the charge. Enemy removing closest models plus you removing your front line from overwatch means a LOT of lost inches.
5) Overwatch guns down any army. If a unit has too many guns why don't you shoot it first to reduce quantity of said guns?
Overwatch hurts low-T, low-armor armies a lot more than marines. Most such armies have numbers, fearless and cheap volume to make up for that. DE does not. And if shooting is what kills units now, why not skip the assault and just go on shooting? Blasterborn Vanomspam all round, is that the plan?
6) I'd argue FNP got better for DE. Oh noes it's only a 5+... Oh wait i get it against everything but ID now.
Except it's rather easier to negate FNP for DE, as all you need is S6. Meaning Assault Cannons, plasma, autocannons...hell, everything above a heavy bolter will do it. Note that all such weapons still allow a marine to roll his FNP. Now revisit your point that says everyone suffers equally from overwatch, this time with a new understanding!
7) Oh noes, no more chance to assault without a response... Because charging and/or decimating things before your opponent can respond was much more fair.
Enemy armies usually have 2-3 turns to pre-emptively respond to my assault units making their way to the front line. You are the one who gets to shoot me without response, no matter what I do. Even if i pin you, you still fire overwatch.
8) Damn, my high initiative army lost a boost to the already above average stats. It affects you less than BA but they aren't rioting.
You do know that sometimes DE armies fight other De armies, right? The world doesn't revole around Marines. Ok...it DOES, but it shouldn't.
....
Before a HB would kill your guys dead, atleast now you get a chance with new FNP.
No. No it didn't. And we had a 4+ FNP save against it. And it didn't shoot at us automatically when we charged it. That Hb is way more dangerous now than it was before. Feel free to ignore this and all my other points in your next post!
1) Ok so i'm pretty sure grey knights have lots of upgrades that only work if they are playing daemons. I'd rather buy an upgrade that benefits me 50% of the time as opposed to the much slimmer chances that GK have. Also, i'm glad to see you ignored my point about DARW speeders losing jink and not complaining...
4) I see so you would rather charge a full strength unit than reduce the numbers by 1 or 2? I guess the people i play with must all be morons because they all seem to think reducing unit sizes before a charge is a good thing. Just position yourself better in the movement phase i mean, you have a reroll on the charge distance so you are best placed to take advantage of it.
5) Granted... low T, low Sv does get hurt more by overwatch but in any situation realworld or otherwise, charging headlong into a wall of guns IS suicide if you have the physique of a malnourished child and the armour made of hopes and wishes. WIth regards to the blasterborn spam quip, weren't they born purely out of how they worked in the 5th ed rules? how about just writing a list that suits 6th rather than trying to shoehorn 5th ed lists into what is essentially a new game. Every edition has had new rules and new rules have always required new tactics.
6) Ok so it's easier to negate? I'm pretty sure you never got it against ID last edition either. But wait, you get it against PWs and AP 1/2 now? Granted the majority or AP1/2 weapons are ID for DE but you get a boost in CC with FNP now.
7) Ok so i assume you play a footsloging entirely melee DE list then? In which case you complaining about being shot is complaining about a whole phase of the game since the game was born. With regards to my initial post, i was infact referring to the previous ed and the outflank/reserve/infiltrate/scout rules which were essentially so flawed they spawned a whole series of lists designed to exploit them.
8)True DE do fight DE but honestly it's easier to use a benchmark when you analyse how much something has impacted and sadly in 40k it's marines. Orks suffer more than DE from the FC nerf if you want a non-marine comparison. Besides isn't Furious Charge meant to reflect the savagery of the charge rather than the speed? I've never understood why it gave +1 I.
I'm not trying to argue that marines should win all the time and that DE should suck, merely stating that there are many things which the DE players seem to be complaining about that other armies have just accepted and moved on with. I apologise if my use of MEQ units as comparisons upset you but seeing as they are the predominant type in 40k it seemed appropriate.
1) Ok, so don't buy the upgrade. Alternatively, buy said upgrade and not move. Other armies still require movement to claim the jink.
Other armies getting Jink means DE firepower is reduced too, you know. And now De have to pay for an upgrade that becomes superfluous if you win initiative. Joy!
4) Sure it got nerfed in that you lose d6 movement but you gained a rerollable 2D6 charge. I'm sure you would rather be able to shoot and still cover the same distance you could last edition right?
Shooting before a long charge very likely means losing the charge. Enemy removing closest models plus you removing your front line from overwatch means a LOT of lost inches.
5) Overwatch guns down any army. If a unit has too many guns why don't you shoot it first to reduce quantity of said guns?
Overwatch hurts low-T, low-armor armies a lot more than marines. Most such armies have numbers, fearless and cheap volume to make up for that. DE does not. And if shooting is what kills units now, why not skip the assault and just go on shooting? Blasterborn Vanomspam all round, is that the plan?
6) I'd argue FNP got better for DE. Oh noes it's only a 5+... Oh wait i get it against everything but ID now.
Except it's rather easier to negate FNP for DE, as all you need is S6. Meaning Assault Cannons, plasma, autocannons...hell, everything above a heavy bolter will do it. Note that all such weapons still allow a marine to roll his FNP. Now revisit your point that says everyone suffers equally from overwatch, this time with a new understanding!
7) Oh noes, no more chance to assault without a response... Because charging and/or decimating things before your opponent can respond was much more fair.
Enemy armies usually have 2-3 turns to pre-emptively respond to my assault units making their way to the front line. You are the one who gets to shoot me without response, no matter what I do. Even if i pin you, you still fire overwatch.
8) Damn, my high initiative army lost a boost to the already above average stats. It affects you less than BA but they aren't rioting.
You do know that sometimes DE armies fight other De armies, right? The world doesn't revole around Marines. Ok...it DOES, but it shouldn't.
....
Before a HB would kill your guys dead, atleast now you get a chance with new FNP.
No. No it didn't. And we had a 4+ FNP save against it. And it didn't shoot at us automatically when we charged it. That Hb is way more dangerous now than it was before. Feel free to ignore this and all my other points in your next post!
1) Ok so i'm pretty sure grey knights have lots of upgrades that only work if they are playing daemons. I'd rather buy an upgrade that benefits me 50% of the time as opposed to the much slimmer chances that GK have. Also, i'm glad to see you ignored my point about DARW speeders losing jink and not complaining...
Um....you may want to buy the recent codex for GK
4) I see so you would rather charge a full strength unit than reduce the numbers by 1 or 2? I guess the people i play with must all be morons because they all seem to think reducing unit sizes before a charge is a good thing. Just position yourself better in the movement phase i mean, you have a reroll on the charge distance so you are best placed to take advantage of it.
Lets see...charge a full strength unit or possibly fail the charge and get the piss shot out of you with no save...hmmmm. You sure you guys are actually playing 6th or does everyone in your group play marines?
5) Granted... low T, low Sv does get hurt more by overwatch but in any situation realworld or otherwise, charging headlong into a wall of guns IS suicide if you have the physique of a malnourished child and the armour made of hopes and wishes. Yet that is the fluff/cinematic use of the army
WIth regards to the blasterborn spam quip, weren't they born purely out of how they worked in the 5th ed rules? how about just writing a list that suits 6th rather than trying to shoehorn 5th ed lists into what is essentially a new game. Every edition has had new rules and new rules have always required new tactics.Nobody would disagree with you here. What we are talking about is how 6th undid most of the abilities of the DE and made the codex worthless
6) Ok so it's easier to negate? I'm pretty sure you never got it against ID last edition either. But wait, you get it against PWs and AP 1/2 now? Granted the majority or AP1/2 weapons are ID for DE but you get a boost in CC with FNP now.Couple this with the nerf to cover and how people in cover are shot and you have pretty much removed our saves. DE are not marines that can make a save against most shooting. We pay the same points cost for less capability...Hmmmm
7) Ok so i assume you play a footsloging entirely melee DE list then? In which case you complaining about being shot is complaining about a whole phase of the game since the game was born. With regards to my initial post, i was infact referring to the previous ed and the outflank/reserve/infiltrate/scout rules which were essentially so flawed they spawned a whole series of lists designed to exploit them.The complaint is it is impossible to get into CC. Our Vehicles are paper, we cant rely on cover or FNP, and everyone gets to shoot the piss out of us before we get there. Dont take one rule change and apply its effect to say we are just whining. Apply all the changes to see how it affects an army as a whole and maybe just maybe once you take off your Space Marine rose colored glasses you will see what we are saying here
8)True DE do fight DE but honestly it's easier to use a benchmark when you analyse how much something has impacted and sadly in 40k it's marines. Orks suffer more than DE from the FC nerf if you want a non-marine comparison. Besides isn't Furious Charge meant to reflect the savagery of the charge rather than the speed? I've never understood why it gave +1 I.Ork hordes are fearless, huge, and cheap. They also typically get more attacks and the I boost rarely mattered to them anyway unless they were playing necrons. Simply because you dont understand it does not mean it did not make sense to the majority of us.
I'm not trying to argue that marines should win all the time and that DE should suck, merely stating that there are many things which the DE players seem to be complaining about that other armies have just accepted and moved on with. I apologise if my use of MEQ units as comparisons upset you but seeing as they are the predominant type in 40k it seemed appropriate.
I understand your comparisons and dont think you are trying to be a Troll. However the comparisof the MEQ is not a fair comparison. Like I stated before take ALL the rules changes and apply them at once rather than one at a time. Also think of your marines without their armor save and try playing a game that way and maybe you will see what we are saying. DE take a lot of risk in the game and the new ruleset increased that risk 100 fold. I just took a year to paint a DE army and dont have the time or money to start a whole new army because GW just nerfed the crap out of my coven list.
I appreciate your comments, i really do as it's good to get both sides out there. With regards to DE specifically i think we need to go back to basics a bit here. DE are considered pirates and slavers and as such are experts at picking off weak links via manoeuvrability and the like. The 'cinematics' that the GW team are trying to force is not that stuff dies from the front or any of that other garbage, it is that each army plays in a distinct fashion with somewhat unique strengths and weaknesses. Dark Eldar should float about on raiders and venoms softening targets before assaulting, that's how it's always been intended. Wyches should have a hard time against terminators, a chick with a barbed whip and a net vs a hulking behemoth of a man in arguably the best armour around should never favor a wych. As for marines without the save, wasn't 5th Ed just that with all the plasma and melta spamming?
Yes i understand that as a game, it should be fair based purely on points in that my 40pt termi should be roughly equivalent to any other 40pt model but it cannot happen. Is 4 wyches equivalent to a lone termi? nope but then is a scout as good as a Bloodbride? nope and they are the same points. Points from my experience are usually awarded by what it brings to an army and as such, something that overcomes an armies primary weakness should either be rare or costed at a premium.
I really do sympathise with you though about your coven list as it is an expensive hobby. Heck i've probably spent around £5-6000 on 40k and WFB in my 18yrs, mostly due to changes in codex or rules. I've got a handful of russes i don't use because 2nd Ed SW could take them and can't anymore unless allied (which i actually hate the rules for) so i kinda know your pain.
I'm sure they will fix overwatch to say you can't rapid fire or perhaps just introduce a minimum distance to use overwatch so that it gives assault armies a fighting chance. I don't however feel that the solution to the problems DE have lies within changing the codex.
With pre-measuring in, flickerfields points should be spent on night fields as It really catches the opponent off guard, but thats a personal thing. For the Huskblade, yes I believe it should be AP2. It's 35 points after all and fluff wise it's suppose to turn the target into dust.
Some other things that i'd like to see change (imo)
1. Make furious charge have +1 initiative again, Our coven units needed that, the blood angels and berserker's lost their edge over other meq armies, and the orks, poor poor orks.
2. Make the Decrapinator and Mandrakes be able to assault the turn they deep strike, at least then they'd be a bit viable.
3. Make Webways function like they used too, also Eldar allies can't use our webways? CMON!
jamin p wrote:
I appreciate your comments, i really do as it's good to get both sides out there. With regards to DE specifically i think we need to go back to basics a bit here. DE are considered pirates and slavers and as such are experts at picking off weak links via manoeuvrability and the like. The 'cinematics' that the GW team are trying to force is not that stuff dies from the front or any of that other garbage, it is that each army plays in a distinct fashion with somewhat unique strengths and weaknesses.
DE had plenty of weaknesses before 6th, far more exploitable than, say, Necrons or Blood Angels. Almost no durability (even for its 'tough' units like wracks and Talos), too expensive to do worde, no psykers of psychic defense, almost no blasts and templates for dealing with hordes.
Dark Eldar should float about on raiders and venoms softening targets before assaulting, that's how it's always been intended.
Any Dark Eldar floating about on Raiders and Venoms will soon be a very dead Dark eldar when it explodes wounding the whole unit on a 3+. But wait, they still have their 3+ armor save right? Oh no, that's SM. And the premise is bunk to begin with. DE are not meant to assault? Then what are the wyches, Incubi, Succubus, Talos, Mandrakes, Beasts, Fleet, Furious charge on pain tokesn, Combat drugs and assault transports for?
Wyches should have a hard time against terminators, a chick with a barbed whip and a net vs a hulking behemoth of a man in arguably the best armour around should never favor a wych. As for marines without the save, wasn't 5th Ed just that with all the plasma and melta spamming?
Said chicks are the best gladiators of a warrior culture and hopped up on drugs that make them zip around like speedy gonzales. Even at their best, they rarely wiped out heavy infantry like terminators, just locked them into CC while causing a wound here and there (thanks to the Agonizer) so as not to lose combat and run off the board. Now they have become...anti-tank grenadiers. Because that's cinematic, I guess.
Keep theorizing on what matters everyone, but until you actually play games with multiple DE builds, you simply will not understand how much this hurts the army. I play BA, DE, and Eldar. Blood Angels are fine because they still have above average durability especially when the player has hot FNP dice like I did last night. (Hey-o!!)
However, DE lost so much due to the FNP and FC nerf. Wyches are literally reduced to an anti tank unit that will melt the turn after they disembark. Every game. Blasts mock them. Wracks are not at all survivable. Playing against a codex marine army, I lost a squad a turn to shooting. I brought five troop units and only one was left at the end. Whereas in fifth, the same two lists would have resulted in the much more skilled player (myself) systematically tabling the less skilled player.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for a fun and close game and it was a blast, but when I put a ten man squad on the board I don't really enjoy knowing that I have no chance of seeing that squad survive past the next turn. And what really sucks is not being able to assault out of reserve (WWP) and as a result having the only viable build be moved to a shooty based list. I don't want to spam lances and venoms. I like varied builds that are still viable. I don't even care about AP 2 agonizers. I just want the army to play the way PK intended. Let me reserve more than half my army if I use a WWP and let me assault the same turn I come in. You still get over watch. How bad can it be with my 6+ save? We ain't orks you won't see a 30 man fearless blob here. Or a KFF marching at you.
I apologize for the incoherent ramblings of my post, I just love my army and would like to have options. I don't own any ravagers don't make me go buy some.
As an Ork, who happens to play an occasional game with my Kabal of the Empty Threat...
I do NOT think that Incubi should get AP2... Nor do I think that Agonizers should necessarily be AP2... But every squad in a Spess Marheen force, and every squad in an Ork force CAN have an AP2 weapon on the squad leader... I could be wrong, but I think that IG can... Don't care about Tau... And every single mindless little gribbly can get rending claws in a Tyranid force...
So why can the DE not have some way of getting AP2 in CC. Power Klaw/Fist = +25 pts to the Nob/Sgt doubles str, Init 1, AP 2. Agonizer = +20 pts Poison 4+, Init (user), AP3... A little disparaging on price, seeing that the Klaw/Fist will wound anything save a Pain Engine or Wraithlord on a 2+, albeit slower...
Maybe if they made the Agonizer a rending, standard AP3 weapon? Would that accomodate a broader crowd? I don't know.
What's the cost of Rending Claws for the little gribblies?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess that I forgot something...
I played CSM in 4th ed, and a little into 5th... And I'll be the first to admit that the 3.5 CSM dex was way, way over-the-top OP. But the 5th ed dex nerfed them so badly that I couldn't even make a showing against Tau. Tau!!!
I then decided to shelve my CSM and await the next dex update... Which took longer than I had anticipated... And then was offered a significant Ork force in exchange...
My beady red peepers saw a chance to turn my 2k Ork force into 9k, by offloading a 7k CSM poo-unit. I took it.
Now, with the rumor-mongering about CSM, I am seriosly looking to restart that force.
I started DE to give my Orkz some anti-tank in Apoc, sans Stompa madness (I really, really like my Stompaz, mind you!!)... And have tried to use them by themselves... And I call them the Kabal of the Empty Threat because I have yet to win with them.
Then again, as I said, I AM an Ork...
Now, if I could just get the Kabal to benefit from the WAAAGH!!!
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
So why can the DE not have some way of getting AP2 in CC. Power Klaw/Fist = +25 pts to the Nob/Sgt doubles str, Init 1, AP 2. Agonizer = +20 pts Poison 4+, Init (user), AP3... A little disparaging on price, seeing that the Klaw/Fist will wound anything save a Pain Engine or Wraithlord on a 2+, albeit slower...
Maybe if they made the Agonizer a rending, standard AP3 weapon? Would that accomodate a broader crowd? I don't know.
Actually, making all power weapons rending (a bit late for this, now), would have been a great move, I think. While Termies (and the like) are supposed to be super-tough, power weapons are also supposed to be able to cut through them (and tanks, for that matter).
While on the receiving end (Guard, Marines), I think that rending agonizers would be perfectly fine.
The Power Klaw/Fist has better penetration than a Power Sword due to the hydrolic-enhanced finger/vice-grips...
The sword has to be able to cut with it's blade... It's not a light-saber, after all.
The Klaw/Fist has pistons driving the "grabby" parts. And hydrolics beat sharp every time.
Yes... Look back on the humble warhammer, as oposed to the broadsword...
Against a lightly armored oponent, a sword gashes wounds into them (European swords didn't have to be sharp, the weight would cause any thin edge to gouge). Whereas the warhammer, with it's 4 semi-points was engineered to crush into the plate armor of knights... When you crush their armor, they start having problems breathing, and then pass out... Waiting for you to kill them at your leisure.
acekevin8412 wrote:So it's not the ability to cut through armour, but to crush it and render the occupant dead?
But that would mean a Maul should be more effective against heavier armour than a Sword because the force of it hitting is much greater due to how it is weighted.
The sword impacts were bruising at times, but not really likely to cause much damage tot he armour, unless they hit you in a joint.
The mauls, hammers and morningstars however.. they would dent the armour and transmit damn near all their energy to the bones beneath the plate.
Swords aren't as good against hard armour as bludges. They are however more versatile, and a bit quicker (assuming that we're not talking about the really huge ones) in that most can pierce or cut, and are more nimble for finding weak spots and joints due to the way they are wielded.
A good test would be this:
Take an unripe watermelon
Slash it hard with a knife, and it'll bleed juice. You might even hack it in two in one blow if you are very burly..
Then hit one with a sledgehammer
YMMV of course, depending on your hammer and knife
I didn't say that it was right... I just see the rational behind it.
The Axe / Mace (maul in this game) should be better at crushing heavier armor. A 2-handed Axe/Maul should be better still.
But then I think that if the sword is 2-handed, it should be 2-handed... And the sanguinary guard didn't get that, with their models having 2-handed swords...
AND I think that the Power Klaw/Fist should be slower than an Axe/Maul, as you have to grab the target, not just swing around at it... Maybe Init reduction for the axe/maul, rather than Init 1 to go with the P-K/F...
But what do I know?
And I don't have a job with the designers... So, I have no authority.
Just taking random/educated guesses.
DE have always had fairly strong shooting weapons and capabilities. Now they're even better at the expense of our assault capabilities.
Also, weapons that ignore or reduce cover saves (hello markerlights) make Jink pointless and Flickerfields worth it. I've always found Flickerfields to be a worthwhile upgrade, Jink is just an added bonus.
As I think back on my favorite series, Gaunt's Ghosts, I remember at one point Gaunt slicing through a possessed demon tanks armor, barrels, ect..
of course it was a really ancient master crafted sword, but still, from that fluff point, power weapons should be better. I like the rending idea above, too bad its too late...
My input on the maul/hammer discussion above: The hammer/fist probably has a larger and stronger energy field, meaning it smashes both armor AND Bone. Mauls on the other hand are more like a warhammer, crush armor, make victem pass out, therefore it has staggering (or whatever GW called it, the one where you i1 the turn after your hit). Ap 4 is kinda bad when a little conversion (or no conversion depending on the model) will get you a nice choppy sword or ax. Still, I like the i1 thing, as most anything that could survive a TH wound was already i1
Automatically Appended Next Post:
McNinja wrote:DE have always had fairly strong shooting weapons and capabilities. Now they're even better at the expense of our assault capabilities.
Also, weapons that ignore or reduce cover saves (hello markerlights) make Jink pointless and Flickerfields worth it. I've always found Flickerfields to be a worthwhile upgrade, Jink is just an added bonus.
What I do is leave FF off transports, as they have junk, but leave it on my flyers, so I have the 5+ without having to fire snapshots, and on other gunboats (Ravagers) to make my investment assualt/marker light/flame template resistiant. Never doubt the power of a s6 hellhound when trying to burn cardboard
also, If you haven't noticed, half the codex is assault. It was meant to be an Assualt codex with some tricks and the like, Phil Kelly just added so many good guns that WAAC decided to make it a shooting mobility army. As I am not a WAAC, I really liked my DE assault phase. Now i'm left with 20 sad sad wyches, a mad archon, even my wracks got a blow. Thats half my army (I've only collected 1500 pts.)! What do I have left? 2 raiders that will die, 1 venom that will die, 9 kabalites and sliscus who will be blown out of a raider, survive on SF for a turn, fail, then die. The only good thing I have left is my razorwing (and they told me I was crazy for buying a razorwing, look at me now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
Wow after reading all of the posts so far DE really suck. Its seems that even thier fan base are demoralized. That means I shall Destroy all the cabals and loot them for the WHAAAGH!!
But if half of the codex is assault, then the other half is shooting. Wouldn't that logically mean that it was supposed to be good at either? How is it taking the half that is assault and declaring it the intention and declaring the shooting half WAAC even make sense?
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Whereas the warhammer, with it's 4 semi-points was engineered to crush into the plate armor of knights... When you crush their armor, they start having problems breathing, and then pass out... Waiting for you to kill them at your leisure.
Off topic for a sec to educate.
You're right about the war hammer's purpose, (effective against plate armor) but you're looking at the wrong end of the war hammer. They did not hit them with the blunt end. The blunt end was just a weight. They hit with the long spike on the other side. Like a pick axe. It didn't crush plate armor, it punched holes through it. It was an impaling weapon.
The idea behind it was that impaling attacks are much deadlier, but a human can only get very limited force behind a sword thrust. Swinging a weapon is much stronger and forceful, but with swords, swinging inflicts slashing wounds, which, while painful, are often only superficial, and much less deadly.
The war hammer combined the strength and momentum of a swinging attack with the deadliness of a deep impaling wound.
Google 'war hammer' and look at the images with new eyes.
Surtur wrote:But if half of the codex is assault, then the other half is shooting. Wouldn't that logically mean that it was supposed to be good at either? How is it taking the half that is assault and declaring it the intention and declaring the shooting half WAAC even make sense?
-Fleet
-FuriousCharge
-Combat Drugs
-All transports are open-topped
-High Initiative
-Two thirds of basic Troops selection are melee units
You also forgot to place the Hellions in the CC list; though they have decent volume of fire, hanging around at 18 inches of any shooty unit will have them very dead. Add the high S, hit and Run, all-CC upgrades and they fall under assault units.
Surtur wrote:But if half of the codex is assault, then the other half is shooting. Wouldn't that logically mean that it was supposed to be good at either? How is it taking the half that is assault and declaring it the intention and declaring the shooting half WAAC even make sense?
The problem is as both reavers and scourges suck (though scourges w/ splinter cannons might be interesting in casual games).
so you have a few basic kabalites w/ venom spam, trueborn spam w/ More Venom spam, and then 3 HS choices. WAAC As before, you had a few kabalites/trueborn in a venom/raider, wyches in raider, wracks in a venom, 3 HS choices, maybe a fun unit like beastmaster in a casual game. As you can see, the second list is one anyone could bring to a game and not be labled WAAC. Now, the WAAC is really the ONLY way to play. good luck getting a game, or having any fun for that matter...
Ok, so a large (majority) chunk of infantry are CC, fair enough. But if you broke that up into cabal, haemunculi and wych cult "fluff" organization, what would it look like?
coven: haemonculi wracks grotesques talos that soul-sucking MC
Gang: Hellion Reaver Razorwing Voidraven Venoms (I think)
most shooting in the kabals, as they have half of the vehicles. cults and coven mainly cc, but some guns. Gangs are a mix with cc infantry and shooty vehicles. You can see the imbalance with your own eyes. 1 shooty, 2 cc, 1 mix
-Fleet
-FuriousCharge
-Combat Drugs
-All transports are open-topped
-High Initiative
-Two thirds of basic Troops selection are melee units
You also forgot to place the Hellions in the CC list; though they have decent volume of fire, hanging around at 18 inches of any shooty unit will have them very dead. Add the high S, hit and Run, all-CC upgrades and they fall under assault units.
I forgot the hellions, to be sure. I'd put them in 'both' personally, though. YMMV of course.
Not sure where you are getting 2/3 of the basic troops are melee though. Only Wyches and Kabailite warriors are basic troops, so it would be half.
You can take Wracks as troops witht he right HQ, and can do the same with Sathonyx unlocking hellions as troops, but neither is basic.
Open topped transports are a shooting buff also (you can shoot out of them).
I don't disagree that DE are meant to be decent at assault. My point was that the units are about evenly spread.
I run a Coven WWP list, to believe me, i'd love assaults to work properly again
coven:
haemonculi
wracks
grotesques
talos
that soul-sucking MC
Gang:
Hellion
Reaver
Razorwing
Voidraven
Venoms (I think)
most shooting in the kabals, as they have half of the vehicles. cults and coven mainly cc, but some guns. Gangs are a mix with cc infantry and shooty vehicles. You can see the imbalance with your own eyes. 1 shooty, 2 cc, 1 mix
Scourges suck!?!
Scourges are the most OP unit in the game... Jump Infantry = HoW (not that you want them in CC)... Up to 4 Heat Lances / Blasters, and a Blast Pistol... So, equal to the Blasterborn - arguably better!
And Hellions get horrendous amounts of shooting... no BP, but still... So, 20 Hellions w/ 40 shots at 3+ to hit / 4+ to wound to soak up all those front-line guys, get into CC w/ HoW and Combat Drugs to boot, fight one round, and can HaR AND the possibility to remove an IC from the unit! A nice way to get rid of Ye Olde Sang-Priest, so that your other units can mop the tac / ass squads w/o FNP!
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Archonate wrote:
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Whereas the warhammer, with it's 4 semi-points was engineered to crush into the plate armor of knights... When you crush their armor, they start having problems breathing, and then pass out... Waiting for you to kill them at your leisure.
Off topic for a sec to educate.
You're right about the war hammer's purpose, (effective against plate armor) but you're looking at the wrong end of the war hammer. They did not hit them with the blunt end. The blunt end was just a weight. They hit with the long spike on the other side. Like a pick axe. It didn't crush plate armor, it punched holes through it. It was an impaling weapon.
The idea behind it was that impaling attacks are much deadlier, but a human can only get very limited force behind a sword thrust. Swinging a weapon is much stronger and forceful, but with swords, swinging inflicts slashing wounds, which, while painful, are often only superficial, and much less deadly.
The war hammer combined the strength and momentum of a swinging attack with the deadliness of a deep impaling wound.
Google 'war hammer' and look at the images with new eyes.
While I agree with you, whole-heartedly...
I own both a footman's warhammer, and a horseman's warhammer... And they both have the heavy weighted side with the 4 pseudo-points, and the wicked spike on the other side (not to mention a nasty pommel spike on the end of the handle!)...
While it was a nasty-killy sw+3 impaling weapon (GURPS rules!), a horseman could not risk using the spike from horseback, but would instead use the bludgeoning side. He couldn't chance the spike becoming stuck in the enemy, and ripping him from his horse, or ripping his arm out of socket.
That coupled with the images of "warhammers" put out by fantasy pulp such as D&D, Conan, which showed the warhammer as some sort of massive sledge that could somehow be weilded effectively with one hand... And the hammers shown on the covers of several of GW's products... And the T-Hammers... I am led to believe that the designers are going with the "crushy" hammer, rather than the "spiky" hammer.
Four Blasterborn, 4 blaster shots, 12 splinter cannon shots, two units, one a rather swift vehicle with a 5+ invuln save
173 points.
Ten Scourges.
220 points fething naked.
Less firepower.
Scourges are too expensive for what they bring to the tabletop.
I wish they had gotten better in 6th. But they're not assault jump infantry, and all the rule changes to jump infantry favor assaults, which is the absolute last place you want your pricey scourges to end up. They might be viable if they got a 5 point discount on their heavy/special weapons (since they've already come default with an upgrade weapon) but nope. GW abandoned that train of logic a loooong time ago.
Not OP in the game, but in the Codex... FA slot, with up to 5, S8 AP2 Lance (possibly 4 w/ Melta and only S6 but AP1!).
And I like Dark Eldar. I'm just saying, that my most OP unit is the Scourges... My Blasterborn tend to not get close enough, as I don't start w/ my single venom on the table, but use it as a harrassment unit.
Duke, allows it to DS, and so, my oponent must always worry about where it will show up... Freeing up my Scourges to wreak havoc!
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Lokas wrote:Four Blasterborn, 4 blaster shots, 12 splinter cannon shots, two units, one a rather swift vehicle with a 5+ invuln save
173 points.
Ten Scourges.
220 points fething naked.
Less firepower.
Scourges are too expensive for what they bring to the tabletop.
I wish they had gotten better in 6th. But they're not assault jump infantry, and all the rule changes to jump infantry favor assaults, which is the absolute last place you want your pricey scourges to end up. They might be viable if they got a 5 point discount on their heavy/special weapons (since they've already come default with an upgrade weapon) but nope. GW abandoned that train of logic a loooong time ago.
I stand corrected... guess I should have looked to my list for price...
I was merely looking at the raw number of kills that I've racked up with the Scourges compared to Blasterborn... But I see your point, completely.
Either way, I love the models of the Scourges... So I'll prolly keep playing with them anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By-the-bye...
Is there a catchy little title that anyone has given the Blaster - and/or - Heat Lance Scourge units?
10 scourges w/blaster are 30" 4x blasters + 30" 18x poisoned(shardcarbine) with 6+ invulnerable. If we count cover saves and HP, they actually aren't that much worse than blasterborn w/venom, I think? They can get 30" 4x blaster with snapfire the turn they moved, then full BS the turn after, while scourges can shoot at full BS the turn they moved. HP2 also hurt our venom, it's awfully easy to get 2 glances on that, at least scourges get 4+ armour save against standard S4 AP5 guns, and if you're generous, FNP too.
Though, personally, I'd still run them as blob of 5 with 2 HWB, not as threatening as an AI, very low priority target, so can go around popping tank while they're busy shooting at our ravagers and what not.
Another vote for DE being an intentionally-assault-main-but-ended-up-being-shooting-main codex. Most of our special rules benefit our assault, the speedy concept of DE is all in the combat now that everyone can move just as far as we do, almost all our HQ excels in CC, etc etc... Shooting just became the preferred WAAC choice because our CC just isn't that great, but then again, if you really want to play shooting army, there are plenty of better choices out there, so I'd wager that most DE players like the high I CC, and would like us to return to our previous glorious day of 5th ed of not-OP-but-scary-CC.
6th ed doesn't really favor Assaulting, except against vehicle...
It's all about the bang-bangs... Tau, IG, Orky Burna-Boyz.... And Shoota Boyz just became viable... They only hit on a 5 anyway, so woo-hoo!, everybody else is in the same boat! And since all Ork weapons, save the Deffgun, are assault, Orkz got better at shooting than all the rapid-fire heroes of yore!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I LIKEE!
Heatwing, and Blasterwing (or Blastwing, depends on how fast you speak, and how much you mumble) for everybody!!!!
I ran Burna's in a trukk, sure... But on foot, they sukked.
Shoota Boyz where pointless... I didn't personally know anyone who ran Shootas... Sure, you get 58 S4 AP5 R18 shots, and 1 S4 AP5 R12 pistol... But you ARE going to lose a lot of those boys to enemy fire... Every slugga choppa adds another CC attakk, and with the casualties to shooting, you need every one of those CCA's that you could get. All those shots are really just extra piles of lead orbiting the planet... Orkz have a BS so that they can hear their guns firing... Not so that they can hit anything.
However, I digress...
This post is about DE... So, I was just saying, that it doesn't matter what Assault "powers" that the DE get... Kabalite gunlines are the smarter choice... I was merely stating an example.
Warpath, the underdevelopment system from Mantic use a value of armor penetration for weapons like Power Swords, Klaws and Fists... The armor penetration just reduce the armor of the opponent, sometimes enough to render it useless.
I think that is a better system tham this one used by GW: AP2 ignore all armor, AP4 ignore just armor 4+, and so dont affect armor 3+ or 2+?
In Warpath, it work like the old ork chopas: crushing strengh/piercing strikes are meant to work like penalties to the armor save... so a CS 2 means armor 5+ useless, armor 4+ reduced to 6+, and armor 2+ reduced to 4+.
WFB uses a system like that... And I really don't understand why they don't use it in 40k...
S4 makes armor saves 1 worse... S5 is 2 worse... and so on.
Then Armor piercing makes it 1 worse (cumulative with S).
And Black Powder makes it 1 more worse...
They could do that with 40k... except the Black Powder thing.
[Tinfoil hat]Poster boys wouldn't be poster boys if you can weaken or deny their armour saves, they need to be both good at surviving against most standard guns, can deliver painful shooting and hurt everyone equally well in melee![/tinfoil hat]
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:WFB uses a system like that... And I really don't understand why they don't use it in 40k...
S4 makes armor saves 1 worse... S5 is 2 worse... and so on.
Then Armor piercing makes it 1 worse (cumulative with S).
And Black Powder makes it 1 more worse...
They could do that with 40k... except the Black Powder thing.
They used to do it in 2nd edition, and it was dropped because it would slow down games. It's not a bad system, as modifiers were everywhere and it slowed the game down a lot. In Fantasy, I think that the modifiers might be a bit more levelled (this 30-men/dwarf/whatever unit has it because it has crossbows), in 40k it would be a modifier for bolters, another for meltas, another for lascannons... It works fine in skirmish games, but in 40k as it is, it could be boring and tedious as hell.
If they took the current AP system and tweaked it a bit, it wouldn't be all that complicated.
Keep the same AP - to 1 scale, but put a minus sign in front of it.
-1 reduces your save by 1, 3+ becomes 4+
- Doesn't reduce your save at all, remains the same and still the worst option.
-5 and -6 could get the anti-tank bonuses currently afforded to AP 2 and 1 weapons respectively.
Makes more logical sense too, as a Bolter round has a much better chance of penetrating power armor than a lasgun even though neither have the potency to outright negate the armor.
Man, I wish. I dream of the day something like this is implemented. I'd love to see MEQ rage about how unfair it is to have a 5+ armor save against certain weapons. Oh the tears that would flow.
Not OP in the game, but in the Codex... FA slot, with up to 5, S8 AP2 Lance (possibly 4 w/ Melta and only S6 but AP1!).
And I like Dark Eldar. I'm just saying, that my most OP unit is the Scourges... My Blasterborn tend to not get close enough, as I don't start w/ my single venom on the table, but use it as a harrassment unit.
Duke, allows it to DS, and so, my oponent must always worry about where it will show up... Freeing up my Scourges to wreak havoc!
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Lokas wrote:Four Blasterborn, 4 blaster shots, 12 splinter cannon shots, two units, one a rather swift vehicle with a 5+ invuln save
173 points.
Ten Scourges.
220 points fething naked.
Less firepower.
Scourges are too expensive for what they bring to the tabletop.
I wish they had gotten better in 6th. But they're not assault jump infantry, and all the rule changes to jump infantry favor assaults, which is the absolute last place you want your pricey scourges to end up. They might be viable if they got a 5 point discount on their heavy/special weapons (since they've already come default with an upgrade weapon) but nope. GW abandoned that train of logic a loooong time ago.
I stand corrected... guess I should have looked to my list for price...
I was merely looking at the raw number of kills that I've racked up with the Scourges compared to Blasterborn... But I see your point, completely.
Either way, I love the models of the Scourges... So I'll prolly keep playing with them anyway.
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Is there a catchy little title that anyone has given the Blaster - and/or - Heat Lance Scourge units?
I like Blasterborn... Sounds epic!
I do like blaster wing or heat wing. Although my 6th ed list feels more like a Scourge wing. I run big blocks of them with haywire blasters. I get a longer range, that combined with being JI, gets better and haywire blasters glance on a 2+ so it is easy for me to glance enemy tanks to death. Then I'll use a combo of bombers to mine the termis and then focus the void lances on other flyers. After that it's venom spam as usual but instead of 36" I need 18".
Assault well incubi led by an archon is still gross especially if some farseer is nearby to fortune 'em. (Yes my group says it works due to the lack of "Codex: Eldar, rather it says Eldar) The biggest thing with DE assault is picking the assaults and not charging the termis. Granted it takes a bunch of fire to do so. 1 failed armor is 6 wounds, 12 hits, 18 shots.
Problem is with scourges that they either are in a building with lances (and dangerous terrain tests), or deep striking, popping whatever shots they can at whatevers closest, and then are gunned down.
Too expensive, too fragile, not even close to op. i'd rather have a unit of true born with lances or blasters
Automatically Appended Next Post: also webway portal, but same dif
Lokas wrote:Man, I wish. I dream of the day something like this is implemented. I'd love to see MEQ rage about how unfair it is to have a 5+ armor save against certain weapons. Oh the tears that would flow.
It's statements like this that undermine your ideas.
If you're really tight on points, I could see them fighting for the points, but if not, I think an unit of 5 scourges with HWB would be pretty decent. If opponent decides to shoot at them, good, one of your other units just get to live to see another day! If they don't, you get to do some AI harassment, or stripping 2 hull points off something per turn.
So, it's a matter of how many points you could spare for a harassment unit... Their wings should provide good cover for units as well?
P.S. They're lower priority than reavers for my list-building purpose, even though I love their models...
I'd love to see somthing like a Ghostsword or something where it passes through armor and hits the skin (armor reduced by 1 or 2) to a minimum of 6 for the chance that the sword short circuits. It'd be my Favorite Weapon Ever and really bring MEQ's down a level. Of course, to be effective, it'd need to be widely available.
As for the Scourges, I used to love Reavers over Scourges for their 3+ turbo and harassment power, but GW nerfed them. Of course, their cousins have 3+ ARMOR saves so what should they care. Even Orks have that 4+ cover, so Reavers are now arguably the worst bike unit in the game, despite being and Eldar Jetbike. Other contenders are screamers and death coptors, though I think they're still better than reavers. These days, if you want to harass, ally. Gives you fun units with abilites different then your main armies. Just ally a unit of Eldar Bikes and a Farseer (on a bike) and your good to go
I think its funny how all of DE abilites are being spread throughout all the other codexes. First Ariel Assualt and Supersonic, Then 36in Turbo boosts, Now Screamers have pretty much a bladevane. Whats next? Will MEQs get power from pain (or rather Pride from Pounding)?!?!
Pride from Pounding!!! Sweet!!!
Then Orkz can get Strength from Stomping!!!!
Necrons could get Metal from Mashing!
Tau could get Force from Fighting!
And then!!!! The Tyranids can get Terror from Trifles!!!
GW standard operating procedure...
Fantasy Orcs were funny... took the funny and gave it to Skaven... Big Rock Lobba... gave it to Brettonia...
Dark Angels were the only ones in the Imperium that could use plasma... Or Mortis Pattern Dreads... All Terminator FOC... Oh, look!!! Now everybody's doing it!!!!
Ascalam wrote:Reavers have a 4+ cover as long as they are moving, and a 3+ when turboing due to Skilled Riders and Jink
Where's the nerf?
My mistake, didn't read too in depth for jetbikes and only saw their jink, not ay of the other things
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Skipphag da Devoura wrote:Pride from Pounding!!! Sweet!!!
Then Orkz can get Strength from Stomping!!!!
Necrons could get Metal from Mashing!
Tau could get Force from Fighting!
And then!!!! The Tyranids can get Terror from Trifles!!!
Brilliant But yeah, watch everything else in the game get these bonuses. Theres already the bonus VP for killing a warlord, FA, or HS
I know I'm going to catch hell for even asking, but in a given....say ten games, how many Terminators do you guys face? Because a lot of people seem to be yapping about the whole power sword 2+/3+ thing (in a multitude of threads) and wondering how often it actually comes up.
Right because there's Termie and Artificer armor that 2+. What else is there from the other codices that's 2+? Can you hook me up with a list?
And one other thing I saw last night. A two groups of assasulters charging the same squad of marines, one blocking for the other. The blocker clearly of lower points value. The other squad was a backbreaker. If the attacker ignores the blocker and the charge reaches then he still can't shoot the backbreaking squad because he's in assault with the blockers by the time the second squad charges and if the first squad gets wiped out, they can't overwatch a second time. Are people missing this tactic? I recognized this instantly when I saw it. Thoughts?
MightyGodzilla wrote:I know I'm going to catch hell for even asking, but in a given....say ten games, how many Terminators do you guys face? Because a lot of people seem to be yapping about the whole power sword 2+/3+ thing (in a multitude of threads) and wondering how often it actually comes up.
Right because there's Termie and Artificer armor that 2+. What else is there from the other codices that's 2+? Can you hook me up with a list?
And one other thing I saw last night. A two groups of assasulters charging the same squad of marines, one blocking for the other. The blocker clearly of lower points value. The other squad was a backbreaker. If the attacker ignores the blocker and the charge reaches then he still can't shoot the backbreaking squad because he's in assault with the blockers by the time the second squad charges and if the first squad gets wiped out, they can't overwatch a second time. Are people missing this tactic? I recognized this instantly when I saw it. Thoughts?
Its very viable, and if the squad is DE they can have defensive grenades, meaning a rather stout cover save against the overwatch fire. Or if your on a budget simply go to ground with your chump 'bait' squad in response to the overwatch fire. There are many ways to mitigate just running wyches blindly into combat. It just isn't an easy button like last edition when WWP did most of the work for you.
Our local ork cult of speed player has had to bait out overwatches and be a tad bit more careful, plus take a few modifications to his list but its not bad. The fortuned archon with a shadowfield also works well against this type of attack.
On the front of terminators the more they have the quicker they die to volume of poison fire. Every time I see a 5 man terminator squad by its lonesome I think '30 wounds' in my head, that's how many on average it takes to down them, plus no overwatch too boot if your so inclined to fling the wyches at them. If they are not TH/SS they can be safely downed by darklight fire even faster. DE do quality volume of fire as well as any army in 40k, even in hth with wracks and various tricks with wyches or incubi.
I play DE with a heavy mix of both, typically 2-3 hth coupled with 2-3 strong shooting units. Its been challenging but 6ed is far from the horror story mentioned. My usual general is Baron so I take advantage of typically going first to sort out things. In 6ed, as well as 5th for that matter, I also typically skipped agonizers to begin with on most of my stuff due to my meta being very heavy ++ saves (One agonizer plus squad upgrade for my wyches is equivalent to 9 attacks on the charge plus 3 more warm bodies, always to me been more valuable).
Well on the 2+ save thing I've used an XV88 with Shield Drone to tie up an enemy commander in two games so far (after all the vehicles had been killed etc.). One was a Farseer and the other was a Chaos Sorcerer. I eventually killed the Farseer and kept the Sorcerer tied up for the rest of the game after getting into combat with him.
The Farseer wasn't affected by the power weapon changes as they just had a Witchblade but the Sorcerer would have cut through my armour and then used his force weapon to ID my XV88. With the new rules he just stood there flailing uselessly at me.
The fact that 2+ amor comes standard one some of the most feared cc characters (Calgar, Lysander,Mephiston, Dante, All GK Charecters who are not Crowe, Abbadon. Shadowsun Maybe?) And Can be put on many of your basic charecters for a simple upgrade of 30 pts. or less is whats scaring us DE. These characters can carve a path of devastation even with 5th edition power weapons, now its nigh impossible to stop them. You think volume of attacks will work, or darklances will magically make everything better? Marnues Calgar in a Land Raider Crusader w/ 6 thss or reg. Landraider with 5 th/ss. If everything works as perfectly, about 4 lances on average hould pop it, then another 5/6 for the termie bodyguard, then 4 for Calgar (eternal warrior). Now who exactly brings 14 dark lances to a game? Then theres ++ saves, misses, failure to wound/penetrate. If he's death starring, then he should emerge on average with almost all, if not his whole bodyguard. Then he charges, reaks havoc, nothing can touch him, If he wins in his turn, we can maybe kill 2 more termies. if he wins on our turn, another squad dead. The very fact that if we get stuck with termies and be helpless is why we want more ap 2. the favores tactic is still shoot. And don't forget theres more to shoot besides termies.
Also, 2+ hive tyrant is borderline broken unless you play IG
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:Scourges suck!?!
Scourges are the most OP unit in the game...
lmao, funniest thing I've read all day. Thanks, I needed that.
...oh. Oh, you were serious. Uh...wow. I...hmm...
So anyway, yeah...I really hope this rumored FAQ has a lot more in it than just AP2 huskblades. I don't know why I have any hope at all though, I knowGW isn't going to fix them proper and we'll just get a bunch of stupid pointless bs like that huskblade crap which won't matter at all.
Surtur wrote:It's statements like this that undermine your ideas.
Why, because I'd take pleasure in seeing marine armies knocked down a peg for an edition?
I think all xenos players would enjoy that. Relishing the anguish of my foes doesn't make me wrong.
It just makes me Dark Eldar, baby.
It shows that you don't know how to deal with marines at all. If' you're having problems fighting Codex Marines, you need to sit down and do some homework. Your desire to simply have a faction be weaker because YOU don't like it is profoundly ignorant. If I said that I'd like necrons to be taken down a notch, I might as well delete my account while I'm at it because I would never hear the end of it from this site. People on this site have socially institutionalized what is allowed to be said about armies, marine armies in particular, forsaking that other people have a hobby too. And my hobby doesn't need people like you gakking all over it because you have issues.
Surtur wrote:
It shows that you don't know how to deal with marines at all. If' you're having problems fighting Codex Marines, you need to sit down and do some homework. Your desire to simply have a faction be weaker because YOU don't like it is profoundly ignorant. If I said that I'd like necrons to be taken down a notch, I might as well delete my account while I'm at it because I would never hear the end of it from this site. People on this site have socially institutionalized what is allowed to be said about armies, marine armies in particular, forsaking that other people have a hobby too. And my hobby doesn't need people like you gakking all over it because you have issues.
It's an interesting thing, marines and MEQ bias by GW.
On the one hand, it is frustrating for those of us who don't use a marine army to see the endless bias for marine varieties constantly being updated, then again, I have been talking with some folks at GW and it's basically in the company's best interests to make a marine army release as every other release or at the very least 1 in 3 due to the large number of marines they sell.
The other hand is that it's wonderful to attend tourneys or pick up games knowing that if you build your xenos list a certain way, geared towards killing MEQ, you can know that many of your opponents are going to be vulnerable to you and that they will also generally gear towards killing MEQ with their MEQ armies. That is advantageous and led me to achieve a good level of wins with my orks in 5th.
I would love to see more variety in 6th, perhaps the Allies rule will facilitate that and break the powerlist from the internet style, if only for a while.
All this does not change the fact that Dark Eldar have suffered a major setback with this latest incarnation of the rules. Whilst there would be far less upset over this by Dark Eldar players if their codex was 5 or 6 years old, it's practically brand new and the Dark Eldar have not had a chance to 'enjoy their time in the sun'.
The army warrants a very specific and indepth FAQ to rewire them and provide them with viability again, the move in rules to reduce vehicle effectiveness, assault from vehicles and close combat, coupled with overwatch vs fragility of the 'glass cannon' has defeated this army's entire modus operandi. I, as a Dark Eldar player, would not care if many of the old units became less viable than new ones, I understand the need of GW to rotate unit viability to promote sales, what I don't like is the effective shutdown of an entire army and in that, many of us complaining here are justified in crying foul over marines, as they don't do it to the poster boy army and a careful to avoid it, based on sales.
I just don't understand why they would spend all that money redoing the ENTIRE line, and then kill it almost immediately. That codex didn't even last a full two years.
Sidstyler wrote:I just don't understand why they would spend all that money redoing the ENTIRE line, and then kill it almost immediately. That codex didn't even last a full two years.
I expect they did the math and figured increased Vendetta, StormRaven and StormTalon sales, coupled with the extra purchases people will make for allied detachments, is worth more than what a healthy DE line would net them.
Maybe Venom sales were dropping and they figured they had reached the consumer cap for the army and decided to shuffle them to necrons, the current xenos army that actuallyg ets to compete...provided you spend a lot on the new flyers and barges!
Sidstyler wrote:I just don't understand why they would spend all that money redoing the ENTIRE line, and then kill it almost immediately. That codex didn't even last a full two years.
Sephyr wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:I just don't understand why they would spend all that money redoing the ENTIRE line, and then kill it almost immediately. That codex didn't even last a full two years.
I expect they did the math and figured increased Vendetta, StormRaven and StormTalon sales, coupled with the extra purchases people will make for allied detachments, is worth more than what a healthy DE line would net them.
Maybe Venom sales were dropping and they figured they had reached the consumer cap for the army and decided to shuffle them to necrons, the current xenos army that actuallyg ets to compete...provided you spend a lot on the new flyers and barges!
I don't think GW operates with level of Machiavellian marketing plotting, I just think the Dark Eldar were not given sufficient consideration in the major direction shift the rules took. They most certainly don't want to kill that army line, the cost of reimagining the entire Dark Eldar line in design must have been sizeable and they would want to get a decent return on that. I think it was unintentional, DE are the major casualty of the shift and I again cross my fingers and hope and pray that the guys in the design team sit down and take stock of what's happened to this relatively new and popular army and do us a rapid and red hot FAQ with some gravitas behind it, to address the major points of weakness this edition has set us Dark Eldar players.
I would really really hate to see us back to a monobuild just to make us playable.
I again cross my fingers and hope and pray that the guys in the design team sit down and take stock of what's happened to this relatively new and popular army and do us a rapid and red hot FAQ with some gravitas behind it, to address the major points of weakness this edition has set us Dark Eldar players.
I would really really hate to see us back to a monobuild just to make us playable.
Common sense would give decent odds of that happening. Then you look back and see that such a thing has never, ever happened in the history of 40k, other than small, limited and very late fixes (regular Storm Shields for DA and BT).
At this point I'm torn between actual greed/malice or or mere incompetence being the main factor here. Neither really makes me feel good about the hobby.
Sephyr wrote:At this point I'm torn between actual greed/malice or or mere incompetence being the main factor here. Neither really makes me feel good about the hobby.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:Scourges suck!?!
Scourges are the most OP unit in the game...
lmao, funniest thing I've read all day. Thanks, I needed that.
...oh. Oh, you were serious. Uh...wow. I...hmm...
So anyway, yeah...I really hope this rumored FAQ has a lot more in it than just AP2 huskblades. I don't know why I have any hope at all though, I knowGW isn't going to fix them proper and we'll just get a bunch of stupid pointless bs like that huskblade crap which won't matter at all.
Again, as I said... I miss-spoke I feel that they are OP in the Codex... 10 Scourge squad, Solarite has BP, 4 others have Blasters... 5x S8 AP2 shots, that can move around, firing at full BS... The Blasterborn can't do that... I am not suggesting that they need "brought down", but just making a notice.... All of the MEQ people that I've played point out the masses of kills that my Scourges rack up, especially compared to the rest of my DE force - AS A WHOLE! - and tell me that I should concentrate on them... I LOVE the Scourge models... So I have them... My one Venom with the 5 Blasterborn, not making a good showing of themselves.
I'm rambling... As most Orkz do...
So I'll just leave it as, I think that the Scourges are the most powerful unit that I personally have, in my DE army... And however they work for other people hasn't affected my opinion of my units.
Ascalam wrote:Ask them how many kills their long fangs etc rack up.
Scourges are our equivilent, and are far spongier.
If they are letting them close enough to get more than one turn's shooting, it's on them
This. Long fangs have 3+ armor, great morale and do their killing from 48 inches away, sitting in cover.
Scourges have cardboard armor (not paper armor like other DE infantry, but still...) the optimal range of their weapons is 18-24 inches, lower toughness and usually don't get to be in cover unless you want them to roll dangerous terrain. They also fly off the board after losjg a few models, which will happen as soon as they grab the attention of a moderately shooty unit.
Plus long fangs can pick their targets individually, making for a potential 5 vehicle kills if they roll 6s, 2 on average. Thats a lot for one 6 man unit
quilava1 wrote:Plus long fangs can pick their targets individually, making for a potential 5 vehicle kills if they roll 6s, 2 on average. Thats a lot for one 6 man unit
They can only split between 2 targets, who's been trying to cheat you?
quilava1 wrote:The fact that 2+ amor comes standard one some of the most feared cc characters (Calgar, Lysander,Mephiston, Dante, All GK Charecters who are not Crowe, Abbadon. Shadowsun Maybe?) And Can be put on many of your basic charecters for a simple upgrade of 30 pts. or less is whats scaring us DE. These characters can carve a path of devastation even with 5th edition power weapons, now its nigh impossible to stop them. You think volume of attacks will work, or darklances will magically make everything better? Marnues Calgar in a Land Raider Crusader w/ 6 thss or reg. Landraider with 5 th/ss. If everything works as perfectly, about 4 lances on average hould pop it, then another 5/6 for the termie bodyguard, then 4 for Calgar (eternal warrior). Now who exactly brings 14 dark lances to a game? Then theres ++ saves, misses, failure to wound/penetrate. If he's death starring, then he should emerge on average with almost all, if not his whole bodyguard. Then he charges, reaks havoc, nothing can touch him, If he wins in his turn, we can maybe kill 2 more termies. if he wins on our turn, another squad dead. The very fact that if we get stuck with termies and be helpless is why we want more ap 2. the favores tactic is still shoot. And don't forget theres more to shoot besides termies.
Also, 2+ hive tyrant is borderline broken unless you play IG
Calgar plus termie squad plus land raider clocks in at over 800 points, my god how can you have trouble killing it? Furthermore it can only engage at most 2 targets a round if it (the land raider) wasnt turned into molten slag turns ago by the 10+ darklight weapons you have to pack as dark eldar. Calgar is worth 24 splinter wounding hits on average (2+ save at 4 wounds) at the most thats roughly 4 venoms shooting at him for one round. his squad is at most 30 wounds. Again I NEVER shoot darklight weapons at storm shields, its very counter productive, however I do shoot them to pieces with splinter weapons. 800 points of DE shooting kills that unit and transport dead. Volume of fire doesnt mean hit the very high ++ guy with your anti tank, your anti troop splinter cannon on average should kill a termie or plink a wound on a character in one volley of shots.
Im sorry I play DE as one of my main armies. Giant point sink character with bodyguard with landraider is almost a free victory in 1500 points or less. They are supposed to be giant anvils that are frankly better at their job than our anvils; that's why we have tools that handle them. I've yet to lose a game against imperials where a 200+ point character was with a giant arse retinue in a land raider... its half their army (or more) and slow to boot... very, very slow.
This is the point of this whole thread, why does DE need something to shred terminator armor over what we already have that works in a stellar way? Why should our melee somehow be ap2 when every army saw their power weapons hit the same way. We have special characters and skads of shooting that remove termie armor.
Furthermore the enemy cant have everything. They cant have more terminator models than your armies model count. They pay points for their stuff too, and its more expensive than ours. We have transition in 6th but its not the hopeless morass being conjectured here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
quilava1 wrote:Plus long fangs can pick their targets individually, making for a potential 5 vehicle kills if they roll 6s, 2 on average. Thats a lot for one 6 man unit
They can only split between 2 targets, who's been trying to cheat you?
With that said long fangs are the best imperial unit in the game so its not bad, but yeah have them read page 28 of their codex if they are trying to pull this crap on you.
Who was trying to cheat me? Some whiny a__ jerk who used to come to my FLGS, didn't know the rules too well but said he did, had 2 laggies who would stick up for his made up rules, and call me a cry baby whenever I checked the rulebook or asked to see his codex. He brought great shame to the DE, SW and GK which he played (all 3 top tier armies btw). Haven't seen him in a while so good. 5 plasma cannons is not a fun thing when you play SM (which I did until 2 years ago when I got bored and rage quit).
Of course, the point of the thread was to share the news that Phil Kelly let slip at Games Day (when he was signing my DE codex btw ), but as discussion has turned, the point is yes, bringing 8 Venoms and shooting things to death can work, but we want more options than a single list build with slight variations. We want to be able to handle a termie in combat. Why, because its fun. Since my cc (20 wyches, archon, sliscus, heamonculi, 5 wracks(run as 4)) over weighs my shooting (2 raiders, 1 venom, 10 kabalite warriors (normally run as 9) and a razor wing), I'm at the disadvantage. You DE players who have a Trueborn-Venom Spam list and are happy with it wouldn't understand our thirst for cc. Plus, just because we have ap2 weapons doesn't mean we'll be seeking out termie combat. It just means we can take a termie down with us when they charge and butcher us.
PS my example was an extreme one in a 2000-3000 pt. game for someone who has only a couple of venoms if any at all. Also, for special characters, we have exactly 2 which can hurt termie armor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don't know how this turned into a discussion thread, but I kinda like it
Agonizers should stay Ap3. A whip being able to cut through terminator armor? Really? If it gets to be AP2, it should be Unwieldy, since it's a freaking whip.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: I feel that they are OP in the Codex... 10 Scourge squad, Solarite has BP, 4 others have Blasters... 5x S8 AP2 shots, that can move around, firing at full BS...
But die to a stiff breeze. Especially if they're all armed with blasters, so they have to be right in someone's face to do any damage. I don't understand how your MEQ opponents aren't just wiping them off the table with bolters every time, honestly. : \
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I think it was unintentional, DE are the major casualty of the shift and I again cross my fingers and hope and pray that the guys in the design team sit down and take stock of what's happened to this relatively new and popular army and do us a rapid and red hot FAQ with some gravitas behind it, to address the major points of weakness this edition has set us Dark Eldar players.
I would really really hate to see us back to a monobuild just to make us playable.
Yeah, well considering the design team came out and said they literally don't give a feth about balance, and got rid of the one guy who kinda did, I don't have high hopes for the future of Dark Eldar or even 40k in general. I honestly don't think the designers even understand how their own game works, or that there even is a problem with some armies, considering how the game they play in the studio is completely different to the one we play. Phil Kelly's crappy battleforce-style list probably beats all the face at the studio in their intentionally-unbalanced scenarios that probably favor his army more anyway, so he was probably flabbergasted when someone approached him and said they were having some issues with the book when playing in real games. "Uh-BUUUUH?!"
Crazyterran wrote:Agonizers should stay Ap3. A whip being able to cut through terminator armor? Really? If it gets to be AP2, it should be Unwieldy, since it's a freaking whip.
What do you mean "really"? Why wouldn't a power weapon be able to cut through terminator armor, which is what agonizers are?
Here's how it works: the codex says agonizers are power weapons (and they aren't necessarily always whips, either). The rulebook says power weapons are "sheathed in the lethal haze of a disruptive energy field that eats through armor, flesh and bone with ease." (hey, aren't the studio DE models with agonizers usually painted in a way to make them look like they're crackling with energy?). Terminators wear armor. ERGO, an agonizer cutting through terminator armor is not necessarily out of the realm of possibility, is it?
If you're going to rage about whips being able to cut through armor then you might as well rage about swords and axes doing the same thing. If I recall correctly, in real life whips are just about as effective as knives against tank armor...*cough*
If DE fight SMs, they'll expect to fight terminators and plan accordingly. Perhaps fix the agonizer to deliver a high-voltage electrical discharge or some such. I think the concern is mostly one of game balance, however, Eldar technology should not be outstripped by that of the imperium.
I picture the Agoniser somehow oozing an acid or some-such nasty goo... Think of it this way: Agoniser = something that causes horrid pain... Acid causes pain as it eats you... "Power Weapon" eats through armor... Acid eats through everything {depending on the acid, and the material being eaten}... Makes sense to me...
Terminator armor is supposed to be able to withstand just about anything.... The Agoniser is using the wrong acid.
The Skaven use all manner of Warpstone weapons in WFB... Seems logical that the Dark Eldar have something along those lines.
Could also look at it as a Mono-Whip... But something that slices thru you, at a molecular level, isn't going to cause "Agony".
Possibly some "Anti-Matter Mono-Whip"...? Seems like that would hurt.
And again... Agoniser doesn't double our Strength, but does ALWAYS wound on a 4+ {except Gargantuan}, can't affect even one of our Dixie-cup vehicles!, is only AP 3, and costs nearly as much as a P-K/F... Seems like they should be AP2. AND maintain as is. Or remain AP3, but reduce in price to +15.
Ascalam wrote:Ask them how many kills their long fangs etc rack up.
Scourges are our equivilent, and are far spongier.
If they are letting them close enough to get more than one turn's shooting, it's on them
This. Long fangs have 3+ armor, great morale and do their killing from 48 inches away, sitting in cover.
Scourges have cardboard armor (not paper armor like other DE infantry, but still...) the optimal range of their weapons is 18-24 inches, lower toughness and usually don't get to be in cover unless you want them to roll dangerous terrain. They also fly off the board after losjg a few models, which will happen as soon as they grab the attention of a moderately shooty unit.
Long fangs with missile launchers cost less than scourges with any weapon. The things cost 37 points with a blaster compared to 25 point long fang with missile launcher. YOu have to take 10 scourges to get 4 special weapons. Long fangs can get 5 on 6 models.
The scourges get speed, and treat AV13,14 as AV12. They have AP2 and can move and shoot. They have a 6++ save. They ignore night fighting
On the other hand:
The long fangs get +1 str +1 toughness. ATSSNF, Counter Attack, +30" range, split fire, can have a wolfguard terminator leading them. They can also shoot frag rounds. Krak Grenades. Long fangs are just better than scourges.
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Nvs wrote:This thread is laughable...
Huskblades and Agonizers are very expensive wargear options. Incubi were easily one of the worst choices in the elites sections and likely still will be even if they get AP2 again.
From the OP, this is all that will change and will have no real impact on anything.
Huskblades definitly cost enough to justify AP2. ID just isnt good enough to cost that much.
Agonizers on the other hand. If they are AP2, they become the auto take they use to be. I think having 5 special power weapons in the codex, but only one that is ever worth taking is kind of dumb.
My choice would be to make "Electro Corrosive Whips" AP2. As of right now they are rather useless. You pay a ton of points for a str3 attack that if it successfully wounds it lowers the enemy strength. I would just replace all the rules with, Electro corrosive whips ignore armor saves, or AP2.
So you have options:
a practically free venom blade. AP- but 2+ to wound
a cheap power sword that is AP3 str3
a cheap power axe which is AP2 but strikes last at str4
an expensive agonizers which is AP3 always 4+ to wound
an expensive electro corrosive whip that is AP2 str 3
The archon gets those options + either a supper expenisve husk blade at AP2 or a medium expensive djihn blade at ap3.
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warboss wrote:
Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.
The problem is not DE in general, but Archons. These guys cost a ton of points and at the moment cant do much. They are supposed to be expensive duelists. Any tooled archon is going to cost 150-200 points. They dont kill squads very well. Their High WS and Init are supposed to be used to counter other ICs. Yet with nothing but a power axe to take on 2+ saves they are largely worthless.
Crazyterran wrote:Agonizers should stay Ap3. A whip being able to cut through terminator armor? Really? If it gets to be AP2, it should be Unwieldy, since it's a freaking whip.
Huskblades I could see being AP2...
Ever seen Indiana Jones? Whips are fast. Other wise, Jones would have been shot 10 minutes into the first movie. Also, this is Eldar we're talking about here, as in thousands of years ahead of mankind. Surely they have ways to counter a big metal suit even if its the best the Imperium can offer. Becasue their ELDAR, their wargear is SUPPOSED to be BETTER. I'm sure they would include a particle disruptor somewhere.
Archons are supposed to be our anti-charecter, the DE solution to the new Duel special rule. 2++ saves, exotic weaponry, these guys are cc monsters....unless they are facing: -Marneus Calgar in Armor of Antilochus -Darth Lysander -Cato Sicarius -Mephiston -Dante -A Hive Tyrant with Armored Shell -A Battle Suit Commander w/ the 2+ Armor -Draigo -Brother-Captain Stern -Master of the DeathWing -Captain in Artificer Armor -Captain in Terminator Armor -Librarian in Terminator Armor -Njal Storm Caller in Terminator Armor -That One SW Anvil Guy -Abbadon -Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor -Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor -Drazhar -Techmarines/MotF
and thats just characters. They also can't hurt Terminators of all Shapes and sizes or Sanguinary Guard, and I know I'm still missing a ton. Now what do you think of our 150-200 point "anti-charecter" model?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know what I'd love, an Archon with a dark lance. BS 7 baby
Crazyterran wrote:Agonizers should stay Ap3. A whip being able to cut through terminator armor? Really? If it gets to be AP2, it should be Unwieldy, since it's a freaking whip.
Huskblades I could see being AP2...
Ever seen Indiana Jones? Whips are fast. Other wise, Jones would have been shot 10 minutes into the first movie. Also, this is Eldar we're talking about here, as in thousands of years ahead of mankind. Surely they have ways to counter a big metal suit even if its the best the Imperium can offer. Becasue their ELDAR, their wargear is SUPPOSED to be BETTER. I'm sure they would include a particle disruptor somewhere.
Archons are supposed to be our anti-charecter, the DE solution to the new Duel special rule. 2++ saves, exotic weaponry, these guys are cc monsters....unless they are facing: -Marneus Calgar in Armor of Antilochus -Darth Lysander -Cato Sicarius -Mephiston -Dante -A Hive Tyrant with Armored Shell -A Battle Suit Commander w/ the 2+ Armor -Draigo -Brother-Captain Stern -Master of the DeathWing -Captain in Artificer Armor -Captain in Terminator Armor -Librarian in Terminator Armor -Njal Storm Caller in Terminator Armor -That One SW Anvil Guy -Abbadon -Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor -Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor -Drazhar -Techmarines/MotF
and thats just characters. They also can't hurt Terminators of all Shapes and sizes or Sanguinary Guard, and I know I'm still missing a ton. Now what do you think of our 150-200 point "anti-charecter" model?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know what I'd love, an Archon with a dark lance. BS 7 baby
And this is the point where people come out with "But he can have a 2+ invulnerable save!"
Yes, yes he can. If he fails that save, however, then he loses it for the rest of the game and is therefore reduced to a 4+/6++ at best and a 5+ at worst.
So whilst you rolling an unlucky 1 for your 2+ armour clad Marneus Calgar results in 1 wound, better luck next time, rolling a 1 with an Archon results in 1 wound and I've just lost my only decent save and can now be instant death'd by an autocannon or Plasma gun/rifle unless I roll a 6++.
Just wanted to chime in a say that for "anti-characters"... Vect is still the boss. Go ahead... I DARE you to challenge him! lol
I put him in a small Harlie unit with fortuned farseer plus Vect... and that unit just wrecks havoc (no need for full sized harlie unit... this is enuff)
whembly wrote:Just wanted to chime in a say that for "anti-characters"... Vect is still the boss. Go ahead... I DARE you to challenge him! lol
I put him in a small Harlie unit with fortuned farseer plus Vect... and that unit just wrecks havoc (no need for full sized harlie unit... this is enuff)
Anyone with Terminator or Artificer armor of its equivalent can give Vect a lot of trouble in CC. The first time he fails a save, the battle is pretty much lost.
Can vect even hurt termie armor? He's still ap 3, isn't he?
And yes, as a 2++ can really be broken (though if he fails it he probably insta dies anyways), they need to add the break rule to unbrokentise it, however in this edition i'd say a permanent 2++ would be fair, if we can't kill a charecte, tarpit it.
Played my first 6th edition game yesterday. Wyches got stuck in combat with a captain in artificer armor. Luckily it was just him and my shard net reduced his thundrhammer attacks to 1, which he missed each round. Seriously though, it was plain stupid. Isn't it enough that wyches need 5s to wound a MEQ? My Agoniser caused like 1 wound, would one little ++ save hurt you? MEQ players need to stop hating on us! you get 15 pt. 2+ save, we have a 20 pt. weapon that can't put a dent in it.
quilava1 wrote:you get 15 pt. 2+ save, we have a 20 pt. weapon that can't put a dent in it.
Regardless of balance, this logic is flawed.
A CSM with a meltagun costs around 1/10 the cost of a land raider, which it has a pretty good chance damaging, and a chance of nuking in one shot. However, 250 points' worth of bolter marines will never scratch it.
Another example-- a veteran Guardsman with a plasma gun costs (about) 20 points, yet has decent odds of killing two terminators (80 points) in one round of shooting.
Marine power weapons cost 15 points, the same as the 15 point defensive upgrade, should they be able to crack a 15 point upgrade?
Comparing the price of two items' costs when comparing offense vs. defense serves basically no argumentative purpose, especially in a vacuum.
Consider that (maybe) agonizers are no longer best suited to the task of cracking 2+ armor, and shouldn't be bought for that purpose.
however in this edition i'd say a permanent 2++ would be fair, if we can't kill a charecte, tarpit it.
Really? I mean, as a DE player myself, I'm all for the rise of the Kabals, but this is such utter favouritism that I can barely stomach it. The fact that we have access to a 2++ invuln save -at all- is amazing (barring Ghazghull's one-turn affair which doesn't really count), and you're saying it should be -permanent-? A 30pt item gives you a 2++? Honestly.
There are so many different ways we can get around 2+ saves anyway. After the...7? Games of 6th ed I've played, I have yet to run into any trouble with it. Granted, I haven't faced a force constituted entirely of terminator-armoured models, but I have successfully seen off a 10-strong terminator unit, via the judicious application of poisoned weapons fire and what could only be described as a butt-ton of Wych attacks in CC.
quilava1 wrote:Played my first 6th edition game yesterday. Wyches got stuck in combat with a captain in artificer armor. Luckily it was just him and my shard net reduced his thundrhammer attacks to 1, which he missed each round. Seriously though, it was plain stupid. Isn't it enough that wyches need 5s to wound a MEQ? My Agoniser caused like 1 wound, would one little ++ save hurt you? MEQ players need to stop hating on us! you get 15 pt. 2+ save, we have a 20 pt. weapon that can't put a dent in it.
Then take the 15pt upgrade that can hurt him (like a power axe) instead of spitting into the wind and complaining that your face is getting wet.
Congrats, you made a 140pt+ unit (assuming he took nothing else but artificer armor and thunderhammer) usless for multiple turns with a unit that costs the same or less and was using a weapon that you knew was the wrong one for the job. I'd love for my grenade launchers in my IG list to be able to ignore 2+ armor but I also understand that while every weapon has a purpose that doesn't mean that every weapon is the best solution for every problem. An agonizer in 6e is a great weapon versus most monstrous creatures and other high toughness creatures. Its even good against the vast majority of marines except for some HQs and terminators as it gives you a strike at your initiative with a greater chance to wound and the ability to ignore 3+ saves to boot compared with a 5pt cheaper standard power sword. If you're facing lots of 3+ saves and/or monstrous creatures, you know what you should take or at a minimum which units you should allocate to deal with the threat (namely the ones that can deal with it). If you're facing frequent 2+ saves (like versus a GK or Deathwing or Loganwing army), change your army list. I like my flamers and grenade launchers in my IG list when facing orks but I don't whine when they're less effective versus Deathwing... I simply adapt my list.
Then take the 15pt upgrade that can hurt him (like a power axe) instead of spitting into the wind and complaining that your face is getting wet.
And then die in CC before ever being able to swing it because now your I6 is gone and unlike the target you don't have T4 and good armor to avoid the other blows going around. Genius!
I'd love for my grenade launchers in my IG list to be able to ignore 2+ armor but I also understand that while every weapon has a purpose that doesn't mean that every weapon is the best solution for every problem. An agonizer in 6e is a great weapon versus most monstrous creatures and other high toughness creatures. Its even good against the vast majority of marines except for some HQs and terminators as it gives you a strike at your initiative with a greater chance to wound and the ability to ignore 3+ saves to boot compared with a 5pt cheaper standard power sword. If you're facing lots of 3+ saves and/or monstrous creatures, you know what you should take or at a minimum which units you should allocate to deal with the threat (namely the ones that can deal with it). If you're facing frequent 2+ saves (like versus a GK or Deathwing or Loganwing army), change your army list. I like my flamers and grenade launchers in my IG list when facing orks but I don't whine when they're less effective versus Deathwing... I simply adapt my list.
This is mind-boggingly flawed reasoning. IG is not a CC army. It has loads of blasts, artillery, plasma and meltavets because as a shooting army it needs to have options to deal with all comers. Picture the whole IG vehicle and armory lineup, now without a single AP2 weapon. Changes the dynamic a lot, doesn't it? Not picture it with a single AP2 weapon, except it's a small blast and has a range of 12 inches. This is where DE are now with the Power Axe.
The whole point is that DE close-combat should also have good, VIABLE anti 2+ armor. CC already took quite a bat to the knees in this editions; classing several units as basically untouchable by melee is a big deal.
I hate to be petty, but it's amusing how you can usually tell what army someone plays given their response to the arguments in this thread...
Then take the 15pt upgrade that can hurt him (like a power axe) instead of spitting into the wind and complaining that your face is getting wet.
And then die in CC before ever being able to swing it because now your I6 is gone and unlike the target you don't have T4 and good armor to avoid the other blows going around. Genius!
Hows about this than, agonizers can deal AP2, but are boosted up to 35 points.
In the last edition no one really complained about Hekatrix/Incubi/Archons killing terminators/special characters in close combat, thats what they did, its what you paid the premium for.
Yet now in 6th with the changes to power weapons, suddenly its all. you shouldnt be able to do that at all, suck it up and live with it. What a crappy attitude.
De pay a premium for that high initiative, they pay it in points and in a lower s/t value. They are fragile and supposed to go first its the way they were designed.
The rank and file of the army did not have weapons that kill 2+, they were only availalbe on hq's, character upgrades, and 1 squad of expensive elites with no invul save.
All this whinging is pointless, you will deal with them the same way you dealt with them last edition, or not at all.. suppose its always fun to get gun boated to death every single game against de... oooh. pidgeon holed back into a 3rd edition list... makes giving us a new codex rather redundant.
This is all moot anyway, You didnt write the codex, you dont write the faqs, and im pretty sure Phil doesnt really value any of your input, so i guess you'll just have to go back to killing de assault troops with gunfire, just like you did before.
Sephyr wrote:And then die in CC before ever being able to swing it because now your I6 is gone and unlike the target you don't have T4 and good armor to avoid the other blows going around. Genius!
This is mind-boggingly flawed reasoning. IG is not a CC army. It has loads of blasts, artillery, plasma and meltavets because as a shooting army it needs to have options to deal with all comers.
The whole point is that DE close-combat should also have good, VIABLE anti 2+ armor. CC already took quite a bat to the knees in this editions; classing several units as basically untouchable by melee is a big deal.
And yet his hexatrix and wyches survived for multiple turns in the example the person I responded to gave. Listen, I know you want a weapon that can deal with every non-vehicle unit in the game for a low price and have it available for every character. Its human nature to be greedy and you're only imitating the army that you play... but that's not balanced. If you assume that there is some sort of balance in the game (yeah, I know, there are holes in that theory but in general its true minus some exceptions), then every benefit that you get over a standard power weapon should either have a disadvantage or cost you more points. The agonizer lets you wound the most common enemy one on a 4+ instead of a 5+ and also allows you to wound things of higher toughness that you would have ZERO chance of wounding (like wraithlords) on the same roll... with absolutely NO disadvantage like the power axe gets. Fine... you pay 5pts more for that. But now you want that same weapon to get ap2 as well for no added cost or disadvantage? That's ridiculous. In a world where every power weapon was ap2 standard, I had no problem with agonizers being ap2... but that's changed. There is no reason for them to get changed other than whiney players wanting a single goto weapon to deal with everything. I have no problem with huskblades getting changed because they're of limited availablity and more expensive. I have very few issues with Incubi going to ap2 due to their fluff, weapon's look, and the need for a goto unit for the DE to have versus terminators. I do have a problem with a cheap and universally available weapon like the agonizer getting all the benefits at no additional cost. I agree that the DE are lacking in close combat anti-terminator ability but NO ONE has presented a good reason regarding why a barbed whip should suddenly be the solution besides "Bwaaaahh!!! but i wanna! gimme!". I think the proper solution to that issue lies elsewhere.
As for the IG, plasma overheats and kills me as frequently as it does the enemy. Melta has a limited range. If I apply dark eldar "reasoning" (and I use that term lightly), then I should get a weapon like that combines the benefits of all of them with no added disadvantage. Instead, I simply tailor my list and my tactics to adapt. I don't expect a single weapon to have every benefit (like no overheating, rapid fire, and armorbane with the ability to charge!) and be effective against everything. I agree that DE should have a counter to terminators but simply upping the ap on the agonizer isn't the right solution.
I hate to be petty, but it's amusing how you can usually tell what army someone plays given their response to the arguments in this thread...
Absolutely.. if they want something for nothing, they're clearly DE players.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hows about this than, agonizers can deal AP2, but are boosted up to 35 points.
I'd probably say 35 is too much but at least that suggestion applies some logic to the question that has sorely been lacking in this whinefest of a thread. Like I said, I think instead that they should get a dedicated goto unit for 2+ armor countering (preferrably something that isn't common currently on the tabletop to increase variety and utility of the codex) like the Incubi.
quilava1 wrote:Played my first 6th edition game yesterday. Wyches got stuck in combat with a captain in artificer armor. Luckily it was just him and my shard net reduced his thundrhammer attacks to 1, which he missed each round. Seriously though, it was plain stupid. Isn't it enough that wyches need 5s to wound a MEQ? My Agoniser caused like 1 wound, would one little ++ save hurt you? MEQ players need to stop hating on us! you get 15 pt. 2+ save, we have a 20 pt. weapon that can't put a dent in it.
Except you cost half as much as a marine, have more attacks, may have even more attacks or same strength or fnp depending on drugs, high init to reduce incoming wounds and have an invul to make power weapons laughable on your wyches. A sarge with powerfist costs effectively 51 points (16 point marine, 10 point sarge, 25 point weapon) will at best get 3 attacks when he charges or 2 when he's static. Your wych sarge costs less and has more attacks with the agonizer. It's still good, it's just not anti-terminator, how ever it is anti-monsters, high T and power armor.
If Incubi get AP2 I will be happy, if Agonisers get AP2 instead of the Incubi, I will be happy.
Fluff on a Agoniser is that it sends a debilitating shock through the victim, not slicing them to death. Bypassing armor does make sense. However, Termie armor is almost a vehicle(as are Tau Battlesuits) so should have some form of immunity. The terminators get it, the Battlesuits do not. The Battlesuits cost more than a Terminator, so I would rather the Agoniser get the 2+ as it would treat both units the same.
And yet his hexatrix and wyches survived for multiple turns in the example the person I responded to gave.
Uh, hello, It was a single captain with no retinue a single swing a turn. Imagine the carnage if he had a squad, or had known the rules and challenged my hekatrix to single melee.
And that in its self is another good reason Agonisers should be ap2, challenges. There are no squads where everyone can have an agoniser. So if that ap2 agonisers worrying your termies, challenge it out. Its got one round to kill the sergeant before being smashed. At the least it can't hurt the rest of the squad, at best you kill the agonizer, at worst, the seargent dies but who cares about him, his profile is identical to a reg. termie.
And again, all the MEQs are missing the point, we don't intend to seek out termies, we still want to gun those down. However, if your stuck in a situation like I was yesterday (Captain took out raider. Had a jump pack so no chance of escape), then its nice to be able to force him to take a ++ save (and I stress A).
As for the permanent 2++ , I was just joking. Yes, it'd be fair if it was single combat with abbadon the despoiler, but take a joke, will you!!!!
And Finally yes the whole weapon to armor comparison is quite unbalanced, though the meltagun example who horrible as if you haven't noticed, we have hull points now genius, as in harder to take out vehicles (though meltaguns only need a 4+ to make them explode, if you've ever used a agonsier, you would know how annoying that 4+ is). Yes so a 20 pt. weapon can't take out 15 pt. armor, but are whole arguement is nothing else we have can, except for an ax thats plain suicide, a weapon only drazhar and incubi can take and has no model (and a hard conversion unless your content woth swapping drazhars head) and lellith who only has a 4++ save out of combat and will be ID the first time she fails it. No variety....
And Just To Ask?
DO YOU MEQS REALLY WANT TO BE GUNBOATED EVERY GAME! Because there was quite a large amount of complaining coming from anti-gunboat threads back in 5th. In short, if CC has been nerfed, your a shooting army and we built a cc army, why would you not want that?
Because MEQs are looking at it in a vacuum. In the grand scheme of things, if huskblades and agonisers do turn out to be AP2, it still wouldn't turn DE into this unbeatable CC nightmare that they seem to think will happen.
It wouldn't even bring us back to the 5th ed glorious days: Agoniser being challenge-able, MEQs deny our chance to sweeping advance with our high I, overwatch potentially knocking a few wyches down before the fight starts, and our vehicles being more fragile than before(as if that's possible! ).
At least we aren't getting S+2 AP2 I:user on non-character models unlike some shooting army has gotten... Oh, and they cost less than our incubi!
quilava1 wrote:And Finally yes the whole weapon to armor comparison is quite unbalanced, though the meltagun example who horrible as if you haven't noticed, we have hull points now genius, as in harder to take out vehicles (though meltaguns only need a 4+ to make them explode, if you've ever used a agonsier, you would know how annoying that 4+ is). Yes so a 20 pt. weapon can't take out 15 pt. armor, but are whole arguement is nothing else we have can, except for an ax thats plain suicide, a weapon only drazhar and incubi can take and has no model (and a hard conversion unless your content woth swapping drazhars head) and lellith who only has a 4++ save out of combat and will be ID the first time she fails it. No variety....
And Just To Ask?
DO YOU MEQS REALLY WANT TO BE GUNBOATED EVERY GAME! Because there was quite a large amount of complaining coming from anti-gunboat threads back in 5th. In short, if CC has been nerfed, your a shooting army and we built a cc army, why would you not want that?
I think you're responding to my post on how upgrades aren't necessarily comparable? I've handily highlighted confused red text as something that, due to confusing language, I don't understand, while sad green text doesn't mean what you want it to, or doesn't mean anything at all. I spent enough time deciphering your text that I'm not in the mood to debate the points, though
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, I'm looking through the Spanish FAQs on GW (as they have all been updated to V1.1) and the Huskblade isn't mentioned anywhere that I can see; and moreover, the Incubi Klaives remain AP3.
The posterboy crowd's logic in here is hilariously flawed.
Have you honestly such short memory? You don't remember 5th, when Agonisers wereAP 2 and... not even remotely unbalanced? Like, not even close, in the least. I don't ever recall seeing someone complain about Agonisers being broken, until they got unduly gutted and now the posterboys are scared to lose their 2+ saves all over again.
Lemme educate ya'll a bit.
Let's pretend it's back in 5th. I've got my old hybrid DE army, and I've got a terminator problem. Five of the buggers are just right in my way and I want to kill them. Open up with a bit of shooting. Maybe two venoms, maybe a pair of raiders. To skew things a bit in the posterboy's favor, let's say it's two raiders. You'll see why here in a second. So that's 140 points to start off with, and let's say I'm hot on the dice and kill 2 terminators. Not statistically average, but not a horribly unrealistic expectation. So there are three terminators left, the unit is down by 40% of its strength. Still a threat though. So one of the raiders drops off its contents of 10 wyches. This is actually a bigger squad than I'd typically run (8 is my lucky number!) but again, you'll see why when I get to my conclusion. So, now we've got a 3 man terminator squad. Wicked. I charge. 27 wych attacks score 13-14 hits (13.5) and 4-5 wounds (4.5) Not quite enough to knock off a terminator. Maybe one if I'm lucky. Maybe. Now the agoniser. 2 hits, 1 wound, and potentially one sticking depending on how those terminators are doing on their invulnerable saves. So, overall, probably one wound. 2 terminators swing back, 4 attacks, 2 hit, both probably wound, 1 sticks through invuln saves, we tie for combat. I will wipe the terminators next round most likely.
That's how it was in fifth. 140 points of vehicles, plus 130 points of Wyches will wear down 200 points of Terminators over two turns of combat and one shooting phase. We concentrate our shooting, win the combat. Pretty sound strategy.
Nowadays, well.
Same situation. The agoniser will not do a single wound. Overall, I will cause about .67~ of a wound despite concentrating nearly 300 points of force into a single five man unit. I lose combat by one. I will gradually lose that combat over the subsequent turns. This is with me skewing the math in favor of the marines. If I had done the shooting with venoms instead, that's 200 points of vehicles (65+65 for the venoms who are rolling above average to kill 2 terminators, and 70 for the mandatory raider to get the Wyches around) and still 130 points of wyches. Wyches would suffer even worse, because overwatch from 3 terminators is liable to kill a wych before she swings, reducing their attacks and further unbalancing the combat in favor of the marines. The fact of the matter is that Wyches used to be able to take on units with 2+ saves, if the units were softened up prior with shooting. Force concentration, s'what DE are all about. Pour a lot of our army into a little of their army and pick them apart in chunks. Hybrid armies can no longer do this. If a hybrid army comes across a 2+ save, welp. Too bad, so sad. You can't win against that unit. We have had our (as many people have pointed out) less than two year old army pigeon-holed into a single viable build. We do a venom spam/shooting list or we lose, end of story. No ifs ands or buts. You can try and prove me wrong, but even in cases where the math is in our favor (as my example above) we will always lose against 2+ saves. This kills the build. Nevermind the fact that yes, it still works against other armies. Sure, but it's not a TAC list anymore. It has a hard counter that it straight up cannot overcome.
Giving DE some AP 2 weapons would be a big step towards revitalizing our hybrid builds, giving us some flexibility in our own codex. You'd have to have never played a game in 5th against Dark Eldar, there is no other way you could be so dense as to believe that wyches with AP 2 weapons are unbalanced. We still need to concentrate our forces, use maneuverability to focus on small chunks of the enemy army instead of fighting on a wide front. We'd still need to be better players than the posterboys who can stand in the open with their baseline second-best armor save in the game without fear. We'd just have access to one of our old builds back.
Stop pretending that's unreasonable, that we should be shackled to a single viable build. That's truly unreasonable, and there is no way to argue or debate that fact. If you think that a codex, any codex, should be so weakened that it can only field a single, predictable threat, then you are thicker than manure and only half as useful.
Are they really the rumoured v1.1(or v1.0a) errata? I don't speak Spanish, so I'm just using my understanding of Latin languages, logic and common sense to "read" their new FAQs, but DE one seems to be all the same, they still haven't added harlequin changes to it()! How about the other armies?
Baronyu wrote:Are they really the rumoured v1.1(or v1.0a) errata? I don't speak Spanish, so I'm just using my understanding of Latin languages, logic and common sense to "read" their new FAQs, but DE one seems to be all the same, they still haven't added harlequin changes to it()! How about the other armies?
Well, the Spanish ones are definately the v1.0a and all the changes have been put in Red.
As for the rest, looks like another rush-job; there are spelling errors all over the place.
Orkz aren't even facing this much of a "one build to rule them all", issue... Sure, mobs of shootas became dominant... but every - repeat EVERY - mob has access to an AP 2 weapon... I don't know the Tau, Eldar or Guard codices very well, but I believe that at least the Guard have access to Power Fists on their Sgts... Don't they?
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
And again, the Power Klaw / Fist is wounding on a 2+, against anything save a Wraithlord or Pain Engine... AND can damage vehicles...
The Agoniser can NOT Damage vehicles at all... Not even a puny DE Vehicle... And only wounds non-vehicles on a 4+... I've heard several times over, "but you wound monstrous creatures on a 4+"... So, your Sgts wound them on a 2+... So you go last... Your PF/K is still more versatile.
Baronyu wrote:Are they really the rumoured v1.1(or v1.0a) errata? I don't speak Spanish, so I'm just using my understanding of Latin languages, logic and common sense to "read" their new FAQs, but DE one seems to be all the same, they still haven't added harlequin changes to it()! How about the other armies?
Well, the Spanish ones are definately the v1.0a and all the changes have been put in Red.
As for the rest, looks like another rush-job; there are spelling errors all over the place.
Iranna.
While huskblade being AP2 is pure speculation and anything else are pure wishes, I'm not at all surprised that none of it came true. But it'd be nice if they could, at the very least, keep harlequin consistent... I shake my head at GW...
@Lokas
I can see their reasoning, in a way, although illogical, if you ask me: They're comparing poster boys' CC AP2 options with DE's, and are freaking out because their poster boys have to strike at I1 to get Sx2 AP2, while we get to strike at I:user AP2 and wound on a fixed number(because poster boys are full of T5 units that could force us to roll a 6 to wound, amirite?), but they forget about the part that even with FNP(5+), our assault units are mostly on T3 and only wyches get that 4++ save, which to be honest, coupled with the fact that they will deal more wounds to us being S4(or higher) against our T3, even with 4++ then 5+ save, we'd still come out just a little worse than their T4 3+.
But all these are wasted talk, what with the Spanish v1.0a, looks like all these were pure speculations, and they're still lazy in copy pasting...(referring to the lack of harlequin in our FAQ v1.0a)
I'd like to see GW take an approach to their FAQs like online games use game-patches for balancing purposes. Hell, I was desperately hoping that electronic codices would allow them to start directly updating the codex with balance changes.
Don't expect any love from GW if you're a Xenos player. They got what they wanted (a sharp uptick in sales after release) and they will be left to rot in the wake of the top-selling Marines. Necron players should enjoy their moment in the sun; they will be nerfed to hell and back soon enough.
Skarboy wrote:Don't expect any love from GW if you're a Xenos player. They got what they wanted (a sharp uptick in sales after release) and they will be left to rot in the wake of the top-selling Marines. Necron players should enjoy their moment in the sun; they will be nerfed to hell and back soon enough.
Well, can't really say that when the currently most-mistreated army is SoB... They're just armour coat for the GK for crying out loud.
Skarboy wrote:Don't expect any love from GW if you're a Xenos player. They got what they wanted (a sharp uptick in sales after release) and they will be left to rot in the wake of the top-selling Marines. Necron players should enjoy their moment in the sun; they will be nerfed to hell and back soon enough.
Only in 5th edition, 4th edition was Skimmerspam, if you were Eldar you were top of the chain, followed by Tau and the Fish of Fury.
It alternates, 2nd had some horrific xenos (The things the eldar could pull off made even a ten man Space Wolf terminator squad with assault cannons look easy), 3rd was MEQ, 4th was skimmerspam (thus, xenos), 5th was MEQ...
Skarboy wrote:Don't expect any love from GW if you're a Xenos player. They got what they wanted (a sharp uptick in sales after release) and they will be left to rot in the wake of the top-selling Marines. Necron players should enjoy their moment in the sun; they will be nerfed to hell and back soon enough.
Only in 5th edition, 4th edition was Skimmerspam, if you were Eldar you were top of the chain, followed by Tau and the Fish of Fury.
It alternates, 2nd had some horrific xenos (The things the eldar could pull off made even a ten man Space Wolf terminator squad with assault cannons look easy), 3rd was MEQ, 4th was skimmerspam (thus, xenos), 5th was MEQ...
You have that wrong me thinks. Their current book is from 4th edition iirc? And their current book destroyed them compared to what they were in 3rd. Above poster is pretty much right. For the better part of a decade the xenos have gone down hill at an exponential rate.
Skarboy wrote:Don't expect any love from GW if you're a Xenos player. They got what they wanted (a sharp uptick in sales after release) and they will be left to rot in the wake of the top-selling Marines. Necron players should enjoy their moment in the sun; they will be nerfed to hell and back soon enough.
Only in 5th edition, 4th edition was Skimmerspam, if you were Eldar you were top of the chain, followed by Tau and the Fish of Fury.
It alternates, 2nd had some horrific xenos (The things the eldar could pull off made even a ten man Space Wolf terminator squad with assault cannons look easy), 3rd was MEQ, 4th was skimmerspam (thus, xenos), 5th was MEQ...
You have that wrong me thinks. Their current book is from 4th edition iirc? And their current book destroyed them compared to what they were in 3rd. Above poster is pretty much right. For the better part of a decade the xenos have gone down hill at an exponential rate.
I never actually faced Eldar back in 3rd to be honest. Nobody in the area I was in played them.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.
I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.
I don't know the Spanish rulebook or codex, but there weren't too many changes in the Spanish FAQ 1.1. Still no mention of Harlequins, for example. It's no different from the English one, bar some incosistencies in translation being fixed.
As I mentioned in the other thread and Iranna mentioned here, the FAQ looks really rushed, there are basic spelling mistakes such as opr instead of por - any editor would have caught that.
Overall, no important changes, as far as I can tell, same goes for the 1.1 Spanish RBFAQ.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.
I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.
Actually, from what I've seen... It's not that we're "whiny" about it, but that this is a thread about a speculation of something about DE that did not come true.
It's actually no different from the tyrannid's thread in general discussion where nids players are talking about how to make their army better! But hey, it must feels good to be condescending to other people's opinion, right? Well, I just had a taste of that and I feel wonderful! So it must be right!!
P.S. I also go around slapping kids for believing in Santa, them kids and wanting things! Spoiled brats!!
Phallus head sarcasm aside, if you had bothered to read even one post, you'd see how I1 S4 AP2 is really painful for us to the point that it's unusable... Well, easier to just be condescending though, I can totally understand! I feel like a big boy now!!
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.
I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.
Ok, I'm About to Lose My Temper Here, STOP WITH THE STUPID AXS, ITS SUICIDE! THE ONLY USE I CAN FIND FOR IT IS IF YOU WANTED A MEQ SRG. WITH ANTI-TERMIE CAPABILITY WITHOUT PAYING FOR A FIST. ON A GLASS CANNON DE, ITS A SURE WAY TO DIE!
As for nids, what in fluff would dictate a ++ save? We have plenty of examples for our fluff, what about you? You can field mobs of 30 guants for 150 pts. Your Trygons and Mawlocks have 6 wounds and can deep strike. A Venomthrope gives everything around it a free cover save. You can drop carnifexes out of the sky in pods. Hive Tyrants can FLY! Your a hoard army, deal with it!
As for nids, what in fluff would dictate a ++ save? We have plenty of examples for our fluff, what about you? You can field mobs of 30 guants for 150 pts. Your Trygons and Mawlocks have 6 wounds and can deep strike. A Venomthrope gives everything around it a free cover save. You can drop carnifexes out of the sky in pods. Hive Tyrants can FLY! Your a hoard army, deal with it!
quilava1 wrote:As for nids, what in fluff would dictate a ++ save? We have plenty of examples for our fluff, what about you? You can field mobs of 30 guants for 150 pts. Your Trygons and Mawlocks have 6 wounds and can deep strike. A Venomthrope gives everything around it a free cover save. You can drop carnifexes out of the sky in pods. Hive Tyrants can FLY! Your a hoard army, deal with it!
Seems you also don't know about other armies.
Warp field was useable by hive tyrants before 5th edition. Cruddace decided only zoanthropes should have it.
Stop acting like dark eldar are the only hard done by army in the game that's lost things in an edition change. Be grateful all you lost was ap2 melee weapons. Tyranids lost 3/4 of the viable units in their army.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.
I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.
It's NOT just the I loss... It's the "NOT 2x S" that makes it non-viable. So there is NO chance of even glancing a vehicle, as it's only +1 S... I guess that we could damage one of our vehicles... or an Ork trukk.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.
I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.
It's NOT just the I loss... It's the "NOT 2x S" that makes it non-viable. So there is NO chance of even glancing a vehicle, as it's only +1 S... I guess that we could damage one of our vehicles... or an Ork trukk.
This is a perfect example of the type of reasoning displayed by DE players in this thread.. namely ignorant of the rules and flawed. You have a chance to glance the vast majority of vehicles in every army in close combat with that axe since you attack REAR armor. And... you get access to some pretty nifty grenades as well that do a much better job of it that you should take a look at. Either way, if you're taking an axe to combat vehicles instead of heavily armored infantry, you've got more important issues. I know its confusing as DE have demonstrated in this thread that they want the "one ring" of weapons that can take on pretty much everything while remaining cheap and ubiquitous but that's not what this edition is about. Don't worry, GK feel your pain as their one size fits all weapon of the halberd took a hit too. Barring that, try adapting your list.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?
They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.
I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.
It's NOT just the I loss... It's the "NOT 2x S" that makes it non-viable. So there is NO chance of even glancing a vehicle, as it's only +1 S... I guess that we could damage one of our vehicles... or an Ork trukk.
This is a perfect example of the type of reasoning displayed by DE players in this thread.. namely ignorant of the rules and flawed. You have a chance to glance the vast majority of vehicles in every army in close combat with that axe since you attack REAR armor. And... you get access to some pretty nifty grenades as well that do a much better job of it that you should take a look at. Either way, if you're taking an axe to combat vehicles instead of heavily armored infantry, you've got more important issues. I know its confusing as DE have demonstrated in this thread that they want the "one ring" of weapons that can take on pretty much everything while remaining cheap and ubiquitous but that's not what this edition is about. Don't worry, GK feel your pain as their one size fits all weapon of the halberd took a hit too. Barring that, try adapting your list.
The fact that vehicles are hit in the rear, does not matter against the LR... however, haywire grenades do wonders against all vehicles... you are correct... the vehicle is not the issue, just a side-note... The big issue, is the S bonus to the P K/F, AND AP2... the Power Axe only grants a +1 S, so, then we wound MEQ on a 4+, and only glance a vehicle on a 6... So we lose I advantage, and still only wound on a 4+, but get AP 2... where the Power Klaw / Fist wounds on a 2+, and gets those glancing hits on rear armor of the almost every vehicle in the game on a 2, and AP 2...
The Power Klaw / Fist is 25 points.
The Agoniser is 20 points...
Hmmmm... seems accurate and balanced...
Besides, I play Orkz... I have DE for anti-titan support for my Boyz... I am saying, that as an Ork player, I feel that the DE are getting hosed by not having a VIABLEAP 2 weapon for CC... I have all the AP 2 weapons that I could ever want... I use the DE for the shooting, so, it makes no difference for my army, if the Agoniser gets AP 2... But it makes it easier for my MegaNobs to beat the crap out of the Wyches in CC.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:The fact that vehicles are hit in the rear, does not matter against the LR... however, haywire grenades do wonders against all vehicles... you are correct... the vehicle is not the issue, just a side-note...
Which is why I said the vast majority and not all vehicles. Unfortunately, this is only one of several things I've had to correct in this thread stated by dark eldar players to "prove" their case. Some other notables included "incubi can't assault from vehicles" (obviously wrong but clarified later to can't assault as well.. which is a general game nerf and not DE), "dark eldar vehicles cost more this edition" (they've gotten cheaper if you used to take FF since you get most of that benefit for free now by moving... and if you didn't they didn't change in cost at all), hexatrix costs more than a vet sergeant (obviously not true), and "there are no ap2 weapons we can take" (which means there are no ap2 weapons they can take that let them play like 5th edition.. ie. without a penalty). This statement about axes not being able to affect any vehicles except ork trukks and DE skimmers is just the latest exaggeration/misstatement/mistake/lie/whatever. Its hard for me to feel any sympathy when I see things presented that are blatantly wrong given as justification for a change that has no basis in the fluff and makes no sense from a modelling perspective. Agonizers at ap2 is a horrible solution to the problem presented here. I agree that something should be done but this particular "solution" makes no sense to me. Huskblades at ap2? Sure. Incubi at ap2? Sure. A barbed whip cutting through the toughest armor in the galaxy? Hell no.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote:The fact that vehicles are hit in the rear, does not matter against the LR... however, haywire grenades do wonders against all vehicles... you are correct... the vehicle is not the issue, just a side-note...
Which is why I "prove" their case. Some other notables included dark eldar vehicles cost more this edition without a penalty.]
Anybody can cut-chop-flay a post to make it say what they want...
I said that I am an Ork player... I have shooty DE to make up for lack of Titan Killers in an Ork Apoc force... I don't give a rat's hind quarters whether or not the Agoniser gets to be AP 2... It won't affect my army in any way... Every Mob that I have has access to add a Strength doubling, AP 2 weapon for only +25 points... And my Boyz are much better at surviving any retaliation...
I am saying, that I can understand why the DE players should have access to some VIABLE weapon that is AP 2... The Agoniser is +20 points... It should have something going for it... But even if not the Agoniser... then they should have access to something that is at least comparable... IE S x2 not just measly +1...
And the FF is far more than the lousy "Jink", as it offers an Invul instead of Cover... AND it works in CC... Which I think is silly... Just because a vehicle is shimer-shiny does NOT mean that I can't hit it with my stick! But it's the rule...
Seems to me that most DE players want a way of dealing with every different threat in as many ways as possible, but when has that been true of any army that has its own specific "theme"? I want Orks to be able to deal with heavy vehicles at range, does that mean my Lootas should be able to take Str 9 AP 2 dakkaguns? Of course not. We'll just have to accept the fact that we need to use shooting instead of CC to deal with 2+ saves, just like how Imperial Guard need to accept the fact that they can't deal with 2+ armour in CC either, or Orks can't destroy high AV tanks at range, or Tau can't fight their way out of a paper sack. It's just another thing to work around.
We already have the tools we need to deal with terminators, asking for a nonsensical exception to a game-wide power weapon effectiveness reduction is simple greed.
quilava1 wrote:As for nids, what in fluff would dictate a ++ save? We have plenty of examples for our fluff, what about you? You can field mobs of 30 guants for 150 pts. Your Trygons and Mawlocks have 6 wounds and can deep strike. A Venomthrope gives everything around it a free cover save. You can drop carnifexes out of the sky in pods. Hive Tyrants can FLY! Your a hoard army, deal with it!
Seems you also don't know about other armies.
Warp field was useable by hive tyrants before 5th edition. Cruddace decided only zoanthropes should have it.
Stop acting like dark eldar are the only hard done by army in the game that's lost things in an edition change. Be grateful all you lost was ap2 melee weapons. Tyranids lost 3/4 of the viable units in their army.
This brings up a question that's been bothering me since I started monitoring this thread: you (and here I mean DE players, 'Nid players, everyone "hard done") know that GW's writers don't care about making your armies work. They have never cared about making a balanced game. They have given every indication they will never care about making a balanced game.
So why are you a) surprised that GW has done... what they always do, and, b) expecting them to actually do anything different?
I dump on them quite a bit for their disregard of balance and tendency to half-heart their rules efforts, but let's be real here, they've been quite upfront about the fact they just don't care.
The change from 5th to 6th is roughly on par with PP's change from Mark.I to Mark.II rules... which they used as an opportunity to rework the entire game. Because they had to they rebalanced each faction, and a huge number of individual models were re-balanced, re-ruled and re-designed. (Merely an example; my understanding in Infinity also has a second edition of rules, but I am simply not as familiar with it.)
GW put out... well, you saw.
Seriously, this thread is full of passionate arguments (on both sides), which just goes to show that everyone has criticisms of how GW is handling things... well, except apparently whatever constituency matters for getting their developers to actually do things. I'm in the process of selling off a ten-year collection of GW stuff, because I'm sick and tired of always complaining about a game. Especially since it seems the only people that really don't care are the people making the rules...
There are multiple games right now that put a premium on finely worked rules and keeping each faction level with the others. This is not one of them.
Warboss, If there was a block button on this thread oh how much I would like to use it
Now, lets get some things straight:
SM Srg. Costs Less Than Hekatrix You Said: Obviously Not True
You pay 10 pts. for the wych, another 10 to make it a hekatrix, and thats before wargear. Hekatrixes come at about 40-50 pts. Srg is 16 pts (15 for SW) Then you put a fist on it and it comes to 31 pts, 9 points less than a PW Hekatrix and toting a s8 ap2 fist to boot
DE Vehicles Have Gotten More Expensive You Said: They Got Cheaper Due to Jink
Yes, so now we pay 55 instead of 65, big deal since the equivalent in bolters will floor us unless we have close-to-rigged rolling. And before the mathhammer comes out, lets just say a combat squad, or even better, a tactical squad sitting on an objective looking for things to shoot. And to add insult to injury, the 5++ save that we DE loved so much has been given to Tau and Eldar with their AV 12 skimmers. OH THE PAIN, NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE CARDBOARD ARMOR BUT OUR FORCEFIELD WAS GIVEN TO TINCANS! (and yes I DO realize its a cover save. Yippe flamers can scotch their paint)
And Finally Power Axs Are Not Anti-Tank, We Have Haywire for That. Stop Putting Words in Our Mouths, We Want a Way To Hurt Termies Thats Not Suicidal In Every Way. We Have Ways Of Dealing With Tanks.
And To Add One More Thing: Agonisers are Not Barbed Whips, Stop Comparing Those To Agonisers. Agonisers are Highly Advanced Eldar Weaponry That Sends Pain Impulses Through The Body. In Essence, The Electomagnetic Waves Are Transferred Through The Armor into the Body. I Wouldn't be Surprised if it Actually Short Circuted the Whole Suit. Again, We are Eldar, the Most Technological Race Besides the Necrons. We Have Ways Of Dealing With A Walking Tin Can, Because the Finest of the Imperium is Far Less Superior Than the Finest of the Eldar. We want the Rules to Reflect That, especially When it is Balanced and Wouldn't be Broken. Fist wounds on 2+, 25 pts. Agoniser on 4+, 20 pts. If both would be ap 2, then it'd be perfectly fair
Now, to comment on a few saner people:
@steamdragon I can see your reasoning. Luckily for you, archons can only be s5 at the most, with furious charge and the +1s drug. Of course, if he kills a Prime when he has a Soul Trap, then be scared, but frankly, who takes primes? To easy to kill.
@Lokas Can't tell if you were joking or not so I'll assume you weren't. GW is know for making things "cinematic" like how their really is no more annihilation, just 6 objective based scenarios. GW most likely writes the fluff first, designs models second and writes rule 3rd (followed by a single play test where they try to make sure its fluffy enough before shipping it out to store everywhere).
And my closing remarks: Warboss, this is a thread that somehow turned into a list of thing DE players would love and our reasoning behind it. Don't tell me you've never wished for anything? Now you have 2 choices, go scuttle back to your MEQ friends and never look back, or show some respect to our hopes and wishes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dr. Delorean wrote:Seems to me that most DE players want a way of dealing with every different threat in as many ways as possible, but when has that been true of any army that has its own specific "theme"? I want Orks to be able to deal with heavy vehicles at range, does that mean my Lootas should be able to take Str 9 AP 2 dakkaguns? Of course not. We'll just have to accept the fact that we need to use shooting instead of CC to deal with 2+ saves, just like how Imperial Guard need to accept the fact that they can't deal with 2+ armour in CC either, or Orks can't destroy high AV tanks at range, or Tau can't fight their way out of a paper sack. It's just another thing to work around.
We already have the tools we need to deal with terminators, asking for a nonsensical exception to a game-wide power weapon effectiveness reduction is simple greed.
Just saw this and thought i'd comment:
Theme you say, heres the theme:
Kabalite warriors shoot
Coven units Survive
Wyches Dominate the Assualt
So even though we have a few good guns and a transport that can dish 12 shots a turn, we have nothing to justify the cc of the wyches. Its a whole theme that...Doesn't work pretty much
quilava1 wrote: Now, lets get some things straight:
1)SM Srg. Costs Less Than Hekatrix You Said: Obviously Not True
You pay 10 pts. for the wych, another 10 to make it a hekatrix, and thats before wargear. Hekatrixes come at about 40-50 pts. Srg is 16 pts (15 for SW) Then you put a fist on it and it comes to 31 pts, 9 points less than a PW Hekatrix and toting a s8 ap2 fist to boot
2)And Finally Power Axs Are Not Anti-Tank, We Have Haywire for That. Stop Putting Words in Our Mouths, We Want a Way To Hurt Termies Thats Not Suicidal In Every Way. We Have Ways Of Dealing With Tanks.
3)And To Add One More Thing: Agonisers are Not Barbed Whips, Stop Comparing Those To Agonisers. Agonisers are Highly Advanced Eldar Weaponry That Sends Pain Impulses Through The Body.
1) It's nice that you convientently add in the upgrade cost of the hekatrix but forget to do the same for the marine sergeant. I've already done the math for a fellow math/logic challenged DE player so just filter the thread for my posts to see why you're wrong. 16pts is the price for a standard marine, not the sergeant. Basic marine 16, sergeant 10 = 26 vs 20 for a hekatrix.
2) Please see above where I said that taking power axes specifically for anti-vehicle duty is a bad idea. I merely corrected the INCORRECT statement that they can ONLY harm ork trukks and some DE skimmers. I also said haywire is the optimal solution for that problem (namely armored vehicles). In essence, you're agreeing with me but putting false words in my mouth so you can argue against me with my own real statements?
3) Dude, seriously... read your own codex before arguing about it. "Though agonisers come in a variety of forms, the MOST COMMON ARE WHIPS and barbed flails". Combined with #2, I'm seriously wondering if you just at best skim your codex and other people's posts, if you are functionally illiterate, or if you just argue in defense of incorrect statements as a hobby.
quilava1 wrote:
Now, lets get some things straight:
1)SM Srg. Costs Less Than Hekatrix
You Said: Obviously Not True
You pay 10 pts. for the wych, another 10 to make it a hekatrix, and thats before wargear. Hekatrixes come at about 40-50 pts. Srg is 16 pts (15 for SW) Then you put a fist on it and it comes to 31 pts, 9 points less than a PW Hekatrix and toting a s8 ap2 fist to boot
2)And Finally
Power Axs Are Not Anti-Tank, We Have Haywire for That. Stop Putting Words in Our Mouths, We Want a Way To Hurt Termies Thats Not Suicidal In Every Way. We Have Ways Of Dealing With Tanks.
3)And To Add One More Thing:
Agonisers are Not Barbed Whips, Stop Comparing Those To Agonisers. Agonisers are Highly Advanced Eldar Weaponry That Sends Pain Impulses Through The Body.
1) It's nice that you convientently add in the upgrade cost of the hekatrix but forget to do the same for the marine sergeant. I've already done the math for a fellow math/logic challenged DE player so just filter the thread for my posts to see why you're wrong. 16pts is the price for a standard marine, not the sergeant. Basic marine 16, sergeant 10 = 26 vs 20 for a hekatrix.
2) Please see above where I said that taking power axes specifically for anti-vehicle duty is a bad idea. I merely corrected the INCORRECT statement that they can ONLY harm ork trukks and some DE skimmers. I also said haywire is the optimal solution for that problem (namely armored vehicles). In essence, you're agreeing with me but putting false words in my mouth so you can argue against me with my own real statements?
3) Dude, seriously... read your own codex before arguing about it. "Though agonisers come in a variety of forms, the MOST COMMON ARE WHIPS and barbed flails". Combined with #2, I'm seriously wondering if you just at best skim your codex and other people's posts, if you are functionally illiterate, or if you just argue in defense of incorrect statements as a hobby.
SM Sgts. Have Always Been Standard, Never Optional. So as Such, I Always Build That Into the Point Cost of The Squad, Whereas DE have the option.
Second of all, don't be the grammer police (or in this case mathhammer police). That was a pointless statement and no one cares if it can glance a leman russ. I'd rather use my haywire grenades or not assualt at all.
Third, they take the shape of a whip or barbed flail, not everythings going to be a big pointy sword. We know there is more going on, otherwise it would never make it past power armor. Don't you dare call me illiterate when I ask you to stop comparing an agoniser to a REAL LiFE whip or barbed flail. Those wouldn't hurt termies, agonisers would. We know its a whip, thats what came in the fricking box!
SM Sgts. Have Always Been Standard, Never Optional.
Sarges, yes.
However, Vet Sarges(the ability to get the upgraded statline and access to weapon upgrades) only became standard in the 5th ed book. They were optional upgrades in the 3rd and 4th versions of the book(both at 15 points extra) and were hero selections in 2nd.
Ok, I admit, I started playing October 2009, 5th edition. So please stop hounding me about what happened in 4th, or 3rd, or back in the RT days. You know he wasn't talking about 4th edition sarges, so don't bring it up.
quilava1 wrote:SM Sgts. Have Always Been Standard, Never Optional. So as Such, I Always Build That Into the Point Cost of The Squad, Whereas DE have the option.
So because we have no option the points that ARE SPENT ON IT are thrown away? How's the weather on Mars? You met the never toy we sent up there recently? Any more bass ackwards logic you care to come up with?
quilava1 wrote:Ok, I admit, I started playing October 2009, 5th edition. So please stop hounding me about what happened in 4th, or 3rd, or back in the RT days. You know he wasn't talking about 4th edition sarges, so don't bring it up.
When you say 'always' people will assume you mean through the editions, and that you have knowledge of previous editions. It's not their fault you made an incorrect statement, so trying to blame them just comes off as rude.
While veteran sergeants are standard in 5th, their cost is still included in the initial points cost. It's not a free upgrade, it's a forced paid for upgrade.
i dunno. ive never really had issues with termies. i just spam splinter shots at them, and eventually they go down. dark lances and blasters also work pretty well at cutting them to size. trying to CC them when they are full strength is just silly.... instead do what DE do, and shoot the zues right out of them and then run away, rinse repeat. psssh - huskblades.... yeesh.
DarthSpader wrote:i dunno. ive never really had issues with termies. i just spam splinter shots at them, and eventually they go down.
This is how you should deal with TEQs. You don't get in punching distance, because everyone is squishy against power fists and thunder hammers. You drown them in anti infantry firepower and any anti tank AP2 firepower you have spare from hitting tanks. Yes, it takes a lot. They're expensive, theyre meant to be tough.
I really don't know of many races things that really want to get in punching distance with terminators, heck other terminators prefer not to get in the face of assault terminators with hammers.
I'm still confused as to why the 2x Ravagers with D,Lance and 1x Ravager with Dissies hasn't become more popular; it's always been my answer to terminators.
Besides, if you really want to kill terminators with Wyches, bury them under attacks. Don't pin all your hopes on a weapon that will likely only cause 1 wound - even if it were AP2. This is why I've started using Venom Blades on my Hekatrii and Syrens and it seems to work alright.
LOL, the whining and the inabillity to think outside the box is hillarious in this thread. Consider Lokas example where he himself came to the conclusion that 140pts of raiders (which are a far from optimal way of dealing with termies) can knock out 2 termies in one turn, then he went on to say that since 10 Wyches wont beat the remaining termies in combat the DE army is broken.
Well, two things really, 10 Whyces will beat 3 termies AP 2 agonizer or not. Even if that wasnt the case then wtf would you not spend a second turn or simply 2 more Raiders (or heaven forbid, some Disintergartor Ravagers) to shoot the Termies again?
Demanding that ~200pts of Raiders and Wyches should remove 200pts of termies in a single turn is just nonsens.
Just curious, how to you DE guys think that CWE who doesnt have any poison weapons and extremely expensive lance weapons will deal with termies? I can give you a hint, its not by whining that Banshees cant scratch the paint job of a Termie....
Terminators are shock troops, designed to smash anything in their way, which is reflected in their points cost. Its about bloody time they are more survivable.
My MegaNobs are "Slow and Purposeful"... Why are they "Slow and Purposeful"? Slow and Purposeful is an advantage that allows a unit to move, and fire heavy weapons at full capacity... But I can't put the only Heavy Weapons that I have (ie... Deffguns), in the units... And the MegaNobs are the same cost as Terminators!
I want more pudding, not less!
I want Assaulty Orkz, not Shooty Orkz!
I want candy coloured Dark Eldar in my corn flakes!
The biggest point that all of the "DE whiners" are trying to make, is that the Wyches are no longer a VIABLE, and I stress viable build. If a DE player wants to have a chance to win - even a chance - then they will be forced to go heavy on the Spam, and light on the margarine... AND then what does every oponent do? Whine that the DE player is Spam-listing... Blasterborn for Everybody!!!! Yay!!!!
Meh! I said, Meh!
Every single squad, every single squad, in either MEQ, or Ork, can take an AP 2 Sx2 weapon. The DE have no Sx2 weapon. Give them an Sx2 weapon, and then they won't complain about it.
And a "barbed flail" is NOT a whip... Nunchakku are flails, the Morning-Star is a "barbed-flail"... And the Morning-Star was made to defeat heavy armor.
IMHO, I believe that the Agoniser was concieved from the Agiel of the Morde Sith, in the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind... And I don't think that it's supposed to crush / maim / or beat thru armor... I believe that it just ignores it, and sends the damage straight to the inhabitant of the armor... That's the way it sounds in the dex, anyway.
I've been playing Dark Eldar since 2nd edition. Yeah, I know they didn't have rules... I just played an evil, purple Eldar army. They are my favorite army and I am biased, but here are my thoughts anyway.
Exergy wrote:
Huskblades definitly cost enough to justify AP2. ID just isnt good enough to cost that much.
Agonizers on the other hand. If they are AP2, they become the auto take they use to be. I think having 5 special power weapons in the codex, but only one that is ever worth taking is kind of dumb.
Most reasonable part of this thread... so of course everyone ignores it to focus on the more ridiculous arguments.
I don't see why making Huskblades AP2 would cause anyone to complain. They are very expensive, are only S3, and only Archons can take them. They were essentially AP1 in 5th edition and they were hardly causing a riot. A Huskblade that is AP3 will never be taken. It's too expensive and the Agonizer is a much better choice for AP3.
Agonizer should stay AP3. It'd be a no brainer if it was AP2. Come on guys, be reasonable. GW wants armor to actually mean something this edition, everyone lost something. Venomblades or an Axe are decent enough options.
Even if the Huskblade is AP2, it's still not a very good choice, but it is a fun one. I'm always down for a good HQ on HQ duel, and the huskblade + shadowfield gives me a chance.
Until the Huskblade gets changed to AP2 though, I'm just taking the Duke. He's a pretty solid character and essentially has the old Agonizer, only on a 5+ to wound instead of 4+.
warboss wrote:Dude, seriously... read your own codex before arguing about it. "Though agonisers come in a variety of forms, the MOST COMMON ARE WHIPS and barbed flails". Combined with #2, I'm seriously wondering if you just at best skim your codex and other people's posts, if you are functionally illiterate, or if you just argue in defense of incorrect statements as a hobby.
Before you start calling anyone "illiterate", you should probably pay more attention to what you're posting.
"...and barbed flails."
Whips and flails are supposedly the "most common". The only "official" bits we got in the kits were whips, but what does a flail look like I wonder?
...I may not be an expert on medieval weaponry but that looks like it could indeed do some damage to armor. In fact, way more than a fething sword would if you ask me. Now add in the sci-fi bs disruptive energy field thing and I think you're the one here who's "arguing in defense of incorrect statements". I also like how the same quote that you posted from the codex also states that they "come in a variety of forms" and lists the two most common after implying that they could literally look like just about anything, but you ignore those parts and go on with the assumption that all agonizers are whips and that whips can't do gak to armor...even though the energy field around the whip is what's doing most of the damage and not the whip itself. GW themselves are telling you that yes, indeed, the whip is just as effective because it's a power weapon and all power weapons are made for this kind of thing. If anything I'd argue that the whip should be just as effective at cutting armor as a sword or axe, but the whip obviously wouldn't have the same chance of killing a target outright, which seems awful damn fluffy for Dark Eldar who are more intent on taking prisoners than mindlessly slaughtering everything they see.
Every single squad, every single squad, in either MEQ, or Ork, can take an AP 2 Sx2 weapon. The DE have no Sx2 weapon. Give them an Sx2 weapon, and then they won't complain about it.
Neither do Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Daemons really.
Oh, yeah! Morning Star... Made to circumvent shields, and bash the armor... Or the whip-style for that matter... Why would a "Storm Shield" be able to give any kind of save against these?
Attempting multiquote from my phone. Apologies if things get garbled.
quilava1 wrote:
Ok, I'm About to Lose My Temper Here, STOP WITH THE STUPID AXS, ITS SUICIDE! THE ONLY USE I CAN FIND FOR IT IS IF YOU WANTED A MEQ SRG. WITH ANTI-TERMIE CAPABILITY WITHOUT PAYING FOR A FIST. ON A GLASS CANNON DE, ITS A SURE WAY TO DIE!
As for nids, what in fluff would dictate a ++ save? We have plenty of examples for our fluff, what about you? You can field mobs of 30 guants for 150 pts. Your Trygons and Mawlocks have 6 wounds and can deep strike. A Venomthrope gives everything around it a free cover save. You can drop carnifexes out of the sky in pods. Hive Tyrants can FLY! Your a hoard army, deal with it!
Hey at least your 4+ is invulnerable. Think of the poor ork nobz (squad upgrade, not the unit) who either eock the 6+ or pay just to get a 4+ armor. Granted they're T4 to your T3 but you have FNP on your side.
Also noone uses venomthropes because they are terrible... And W6, even with T6, goes faster than you think especially when dealing with non T*2 ID (e.g.: force weapons, husk blade, etc). Not that Trygons or HTs are bad but they really aren't hard to kill or anything. (Though obviously flyrants have a short term boost while skyfire is still somewhat rare.)
quilava1 wrote:
SM Srg. Costs Less Than Hekatrix
You Said: Obviously Not True
You pay 10 pts. for the wych, another 10 to make it a hekatrix, and thats before wargear. Hekatrixes come at about 40-50 pts. Srg is 16 pts (15 for SW) Then you put a fist on it and it comes to 31 pts, 9 points less than a PW Hekatrix and toting a s8 ap2 fist to boot
Fist wounds on 2+, 25 pts.
Agoniser on 4+, 20 pts.
If both would be ap 2, then it'd be perfectly fair
Now, to comment on a few saner people:
@steamdragon
I can see your reasoning. Luckily for you, archons can only be s5 at the most, with furious charge and the +1s drug. Of course, if he kills a Prime when he has a Soul Trap, then be scared, but frankly, who takes primes? To easy to kill.
Small correction first: SW squads do not pay 15you pts for sgts. We dont have sgta at all, a regular squad dude picks up the fist. If we want a "sgt" (that is, someone who can issue challenges to protect the squad) we have to take Wolf Guard who are 18pts base, require a minimum of 3 to field, and take an elite slot. They also force the decision of transport vs second special weapon.
As to Nids vs Husk Bladr the S of the user is almost irrelevant. Barring psychic powers changing things a single 6 to wound with an AP2 husk blade will outright kill any tyranid MC (except the swarmlord) with no recourse what so ever. At least force weapons require am activation roll that would be marginally more difficult if SitW is in effect! As said though, husk blades are fairly rare in DE lists but these changes wouldnt be made in a vaccuum. AP2 Agonizers at normal I, being poisoned(4+), would gut most tyranid units as well.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:I really don't know of many races things that really want to get in punching distance with terminators, heck other terminators prefer not to get in the face of assault terminators with hammers.
Honestly as a tyranid player the only thing I can think to do is drown them in bodies to lock them down. We have no AP2 ranged biomorphs. Our psychic powers have to make it through DtW (which is 5+ for GKs, yes? Since theyre the same Mastery Level as Nids usually? 1) and the 3+ or 5+ invulnerables... I certainly dont want my I1 Tervigons or Fexes (hah! Like anyone still uses those...)and in with TH/SS termies. Or even normal termies really...
Red Viper wrote:
I don't see why making Huskblades AP2 would cause anyone to complain. They are very expensive, are only S3, and only Archons can take them. They were essentially AP1 in 5th edition and they were hardly causing a riot. A Huskblade that is AP3 will never be taken. It's too expensive and the Agonizer is a much better choice for AP3.
Agonizer should stay AP3. It'd be a no brainer if it was AP2. Come on guys, be reasonable. GW wants armor to actually mean something this edition, everyone lost something. Venomblades or an Axe are decent enough options.
Wont someone think of the TMC?? ;'(
Jokes aside thougb. I did accidentally delete the oost you quoted that said ID isn't that good, which is a bit subjective depending on the opponent being faced. ID remains one of the bigger issues with the tyranid army.
All that said I agree with your post. AP2 huskblades would not be fun for tyranids to deal with but lets be realistic: most of your weapons already bypass the high toughness MCs rely on anyway. Sort of a drop in the bucket issue in the end, and as has been said many times the huskblade isnt exactly scattered all over the DE army list. Still, if it went AP2 having some sort of an activation roll, even just a regular ole Ld check, would be a nice offset.
AP2 agonizer does seem like it would be a no brainer. Hm... AP2 S+1 I1 for x points value or AP2 Poisoned 4+ I normal for x+5(? I think?)and points... Gee let me think.
tedurur wrote:LOL, the whining and the inabillity to think outside the box is hillarious in this thread. Consider Lokas example where he himself came to the conclusion that 140pts of raiders (which are a far from optimal way of dealing with termies) can knock out 2 termies in one turn, then he went on to say that since 10 Wyches wont beat the remaining termies in combat the DE army is broken.
Well, two things really, 10 Whyces will beat 3 termies AP 2 agonizer or not. Even if that wasnt the case then wtf would you not spend a second turn or simply 2 more Raiders (or heaven forbid, some Disintergartor Ravagers) to shoot the Termies again?
Demanding that ~200pts of Raiders and Wyches should remove 200pts of termies in a single turn is just nonsens.
Just curious, how to you DE guys think that CWE who doesnt have any poison weapons and extremely expensive lance weapons will deal with termies? I can give you a hint, its not by whining that Banshees cant scratch the paint job of a Termie....
I-
Did you actually read my post?
At all? Because I'm not sure how someone can miss the point so far that they're actually shooting at targets in a different gallery down the road.
For one, no. 130-150 (depending on if they have haywires or not) will not win against 3 Terminators in this edition. They'll be lucky to even tie combat. In 5th, they could reliably tie combat and then win out in the second round of combat. I never said anything about them wiping the terminator squad in a single turn. I mean, really, did you even skim my post? I quite literally said they'd win out in the second or third round of combat, not the first.
And how would you suggest I deal with terminators? Torrent them with Venoms, which cost 65 points each and each only inflict .66668~ of a wound on a TEQ squad? Disintegrator cannons, which only inflict .88~ of a wound on baseline terminators, and .44~ of a wound against terminators with storm shields? Not to mention gimp the Dark Eldar's already poor ability to deal with armor on the critical first turn? Please, tell me, how much of my army should have to focus down a single enemy unit with a 2+ save? All of my shooting for a single turn, leaving the remainder of the enemy army free to roam, or a fraction of my shooting a turn, leaving the terminators free to do as they please? Also, what should my assault elements be doing? Cowering in their paper airplanes until that terminator threat is removed so they can finally start piling in without fear of being counter-assaulted by something they cannot, under any circumstances, win against?
Don't pretend to know our army better than us, especially when you lack the basic reading comprehension skills to even understand our gripes.
Also, as to all this talk of weight of attacks. Uh. We have weight of attacks? Wyches can, at best, get 41 attacks per turn. Thaaat's 20-21 hits, annnd 6-7 wounds which requires the wyches get a specific combat drug out of six. That's... that's weight of attacks? Iiiii doooon't think so. Weight of attacks is orks pouring out 90 attacks on the charge. Necron Flayed Ones (disregarding all their flaws) can do weight of attacks decently as well. Not to mention both of these units are strength 4, so the attacks that hit actually do more damage. Wyches do not have weight of attacks. This is a myth.
Orks are only S4 on the charge but I see what you're saying. You could do what some other armies are forced to do re: terminators: avoid them. Easier said than done obviously but if they're on foot they're same as any other infantry. If they deep strike they're all clumped up and begging for blasts /templates. In a vehicle pop it and blah de blah de blah.
Clearly I have never played as DE, so I wont pretend to know your army's specific method of dealing with them. But if wyches can't deal with them then surely you have other options?
I mean you want to talk lack if AP2 options, look no farther than 6e'sthe favorite punching bag: Nids!
Lokas wrote:Don't pretend to know our army better than us, especially when you lack the basic reading comprehension skills to even understand our gripes.
Also, as to all this talk of weight of attacks. Uh. We have weight of attacks? Wyches can, at best, get 41 attacks per turn. Thaaat's 20-21 hits, annnd 6-7 wounds which requires the wyches get a specific combat drug out of six. That's... that's weight of attacks? Iiiii doooon't think so. Weight of attacks is orks pouring out 90 attacks on the charge. Necron Flayed Ones (disregarding all their flaws) can do weight of attacks decently as well. Not to mention both of these units are strength 4, so the attacks that hit actually do more damage. Wyches do not have weight of attacks. This is a myth.
Interesting... I can come up with a wych unit that uses the same combat drugs you're talking about that has 76 attacks on the charge "at best" and 68.5 on average with the charge. If the best you can come up with is off by nearly half, perhaps your knowledge of the army isn't as good as you think it is. That seems to be a common theme throughout this thread with the "experts" telling the unwashed masses they don't know what they're talking about yet spouting off incorrect statements as proof.
Nids are pretty gimpy in this edition too, and they deserve a buff.
That's why the argument that 'NIDS ARE BAD TOO, SO YOU SHOULD BE BAD' is so terrible terribly flawed.
No. Both of us deserve buffs. Game balance means everyone is on the same level. I know it's a pipe dream, because no game developer, tabletop or otherwise has realized that a balanced game is more profitable than an unbalanced game. But still.
And Dark Eldar aren't exactly well known for their blasts/templates.
We do have ways to deal with terminators, but they're all... pretty damn lame. Disintegrators aren't that great, despite being AP 2. Splinter Cannons take some serious weight of fire to do any noticeable damage. Dark Lances and Blasters aren't ideal for the job, but they're antitank weapons so that goes without saying really.
Our best bet for dealing with terminators is probably Wracks with an attached haemonculus. Two potentially AP 2/1 templates, followed by 27 attacks on the charge that reroll failed wounds (giving them some of that fabled weight of attacks) and 4 attacks that wound on a rerollable 2+. None of it ignores armor saves, but they can force a good deal more saves. You still need to concentrate a good deal of your force into a single unit, but they actually have a decent chance of winning. Though, if the dice aren't on your side and you don't win that first round of combat, chances are you're going to lose every subsequent round as your furious charge bonus fades away and thunder hammers/power fists deny your feel no pain. Not exactly an ideal solution.
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warboss wrote:Interesting... I can come up with a wych unit that uses the same combat drugs you're talking about that has 76 attacks on the charge "at best" and 68.5 on average with the charge. If the best you can come up with is off by nearly half, perhaps your knowledge of the army isn't as good as you think it is. That seems to be a common theme throughout this thread with the "experts" telling the unwashed masses they don't know what they're talking about yet spouting off incorrect statements as proof.
So you're talking about the large foot blocks of wyches walking up the board, not using a transport?
Oh god, your ignorance. Oh god, to think that'd actually be a good idea.
Please, prove me right some more. Please, demonstrate how little you understand of this game again.
Anyone who thinks that walking toughness 3 bodies with a 6+ save up the board is a good idea has no idea how to play this game. Plain and simple. That is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter what army you play. Hell, even guardsmen are more durable than that. Not to mention 40% cheaper.
warboss wrote:Interesting... I can come up with a wych unit that uses the same combat drugs you're talking about that has 76 attacks on the charge "at best" and 68.5 on average with the charge. If the best you can come up with is off by nearly half, perhaps your knowledge of the army isn't as good as you think it is. That seems to be a common theme throughout this thread with the "experts" telling the unwashed masses they don't know what they're talking about yet spouting off incorrect statements as proof.
So you're talking about the large foot blocks of wyches walking up the board, not using a transport?
Oh god, your ignorance. Oh god, to think that'd actually be a good idea.
Please, prove me right some more. Please, demonstrate how little you understand of this game again.
Anyone who thinks that walking toughness 3 bodies with a 6+ save up the board is a good idea has no idea how to play this game. Plain and simple. That is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter what army you play. Hell, even guardsmen are more durable than that. Not to mention 40% cheaper.
Your example.. not mine. I'm simply correcting yet ANOTHER exaggeration/mistake/derp since you said that wyches "at best" get 41 attacks and you were off by almost double that amount. As for a large block of foot wyches, you didn't put any qualifiers on your statement at that time other than charging and +1 attack combat drugs so spare me your retroactive goal post moving "tactics" commentary. Even with the standard 10 man unit that fits in a raider that you are NOW adding to the previous example, the squad can put out 51 attacks "at best" which is still significantly more than the 41 you quoted. In NO case was your "at best" number ever close to the best. It's just another example of the lack of out of the box thinking displayed by the so called experts of the army. Hell, if you can't even calculate how many attacks a unit can get (since that was YOUR GOAL in that example), you're not even bothering to come out of one corner of the box you're in let alone thinking outside it.
Either way, arguing the facts in this thread is pointless to do with people who are just determined to be at the top of the pity pile even if it means they have to emulate the deceitfulness of the army they play. See you guys in a few days (hopefully after the FAQ clears things up).
Lokas wrote:Nids are pretty gimpy in this edition too, and they deserve a buff.
That's why the argument that 'NIDS ARE BAD TOO, SO YOU SHOULD BE BAD' is so terrible terribly flawed.
No. Both of us deserve buffs. Game balance means everyone is on the same level. I know it's a pipe dream, because no game developer, tabletop or otherwise has realized that a balanced game is more profitable than an unbalanced game. But still.
And Dark Eldar aren't exactly well known for their blasts/templates.
We do have ways to deal with terminators, but they're all... pretty damn lame. Disintegrators aren't that great, despite being AP 2. Splinter Cannons take some serious weight of fire to do any noticeable damage. Dark Lances and Blasters aren't ideal for the job, but they're antitank weapons so that goes without saying really.
Our best bet for dealing with terminators is probably Wracks with an attached haemonculus. Two potentially AP 2/1 templates, followed by 27 attacks on the charge that reroll failed wounds (giving them some of that fabled weight of attacks) and 4 attacks that wound on a rerollable 2+. None of it ignores armor saves, but they can force a good deal more saves. You still need to concentrate a good deal of your force into a single unit, but they actually have a decent chance of winning. Though, if the dice aren't on your side and you don't win that first round of combat, chances are you're going to lose every subsequent round as your furious charge bonus fades away and thunder hammers/power fists deny your feel no pain. Not exactly an ideal solution.
Anyone who thinks that walking toughness 3 bodies with a 6+ save up the board is a good idea has no idea how to play this game. Plain and simple. That is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter what army you play. Hell, even guardsmen are more durable than that. Not to mention 40% cheaper.
Just to be clear, I was never the one suggesting DE be brought down to the level of Nids. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Also while you do mention a variety og heavy weapons what about mass aplinter rifles to go with the heavier cannons/blasters/disintegrators? Every what... 18 shots should be a dead termie if my math is right. (Which it probably isnt as I havent had my morning caffeine...) You dont have to wipe them all out in one salvo.
I do hear you on getting stuck in with TH/SS termies though. That rarely ends well for anyone.
As to your comment on marching T3 6+ models across the board... *eyes gaunts*
warboss wrote:Interesting... I can come up with a wych unit that uses the same combat drugs you're talking about that has 76 attacks on the charge "at best" and 68.5 on average with the charge. If the best you can come up with is off by nearly half, perhaps your knowledge of the army isn't as good as you think it is. That seems to be a common theme throughout this thread with the "experts" telling the unwashed masses they don't know what they're talking about yet spouting off incorrect statements as proof.
So you're talking about the large foot blocks of wyches walking up the board, not using a transport?
Oh god, your ignorance. Oh god, to think that'd actually be a good idea.
Please, prove me right some more. Please, demonstrate how little you understand of this game again.
Anyone who thinks that walking toughness 3 bodies with a 6+ save up the board is a good idea has no idea how to play this game. Plain and simple. That is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter what army you play. Hell, even guardsmen are more durable than that. Not to mention 40% cheaper.
Your example.. not mine. I'm simply correcting yet ANOTHER exaggeration/mistake/derp since you said that wyches "at best" get 41 attacks and you were off by almost double that amount. As for a large block of foot wyches, you didn't put any qualifiers on your statement at that time other than charging and +1 attack combat drugs so spare me your retroactive goal post moving "tactics" commentary. Even with the standard 10 man unit that fits in a raider that you are NOW adding to the previous example, the squad can put out 51 attacks "at best" which is still significantly more than the 41 you quoted. In NO case was your "at best" number ever close to the best. It's just another example of the lack of out of the box thinking displayed by the so called experts of the army. Hell, if you can't even calculate how many attacks a unit can get (since that was YOUR GOAL in that example), you're not even bothering to come out of one corner of the box you're in let alone thinking outside it.
Either way, arguing the facts in this thread is pointless to do with people who are just determined to be at the top of the pity pile even if it means they have to emulate the deceitfulness of the army they play. See you guys in a few days (hopefully after the FAQ clears things up).
Do you feel better by belittling people? Seriously... You take what someone says, ignore any possible nuances that they may / may not imply, and then tell them how ignorant they are...
That doesn't even require real thought. Anyone can pick out a few words from someones post, and then show how they are / aren't intellegent...
That's like claiming statistics as hard evidence of anything other than trends...
I will attest to the fact that some of the posters on the DE side of the arguement have said some crass things about you... But you don't post anything that doesn't attack someones person... You don't attack their arguement... You don't acknowledge any merit to anyones arguement.
warboss wrote:Your example.. not mine. I'm simply correcting yet ANOTHER exaggeration/mistake/derp since you said that wyches "at best" get 41 attacks and you were off by almost double that amount. As for a large block of foot wyches, you didn't put any qualifiers on your statement at that time other than charging and +1 attack combat drugs so spare me your retroactive goal post moving "tactics" commentary. Even with the standard 10 man unit that fits in a raider that you are NOW adding to the previous example, the squad can put out 51 attacks "at best" which is still significantly more than the 41 you quoted. In NO case was your "at best" number ever close to the best. It's just another example of the lack of out of the box thinking displayed by the so called experts of the army. Hell, if you can't even calculate how many attacks a unit can get (since that was YOUR GOAL in that example), you're not even bothering to come out of one corner of the box you're in let alone thinking outside it.
Either way, arguing the facts in this thread is pointless to do with people who are just determined to be at the top of the pity pile even if it means they have to emulate the deceitfulness of the army they play. See you guys in a few days (hopefully after the FAQ clears things up).
At best indicates that I mean in the best possible situation. It's... kinda self explanatory, I'm surprised I really need to elaborate on that for you. The Raider is the best configuration because 15 wyches on foot is a non-option. Sure, yeah, we can do that. It's a terrible idea to do so. Wyches are too fragile and too dependent on getting the charge to not take a dedicated transport, that is the best situation. Hence, at best. Moving on.
At best, Wyches get 4 attacks per model. They are base 1 attack, one bonus attack for two close combat weapons, one for charging, one for combat drugs, and one more on the hekatrix. So a 10 man squad in a raider will have 41 attacks with a hekatrix. I'm... I'm not sure how you're trying to argue that. Do... do you think Wyches have 2 attacks base?
And you say I'm the one who doesn't know my codex.
Edited by Manchu.
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streamdragon wrote:
Just to be clear, I was never the one suggesting DE be brought down to the level of Nids. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Also while you do mention a variety og heavy weapons what about mass aplinter rifles to go with the heavier cannons/blasters/disintegrators? Every what... 18 shots should be a dead termie if my math is right. (Which it probably isnt as I havent had my morning caffeine...) You dont have to wipe them all out in one salvo.
I do hear you on getting stuck in with TH/SS termies though. That rarely ends well for anyone.
As to your comment on marching T3 6+ models across the board... *eyes gaunts*
Oh no, I know. I was talking in general. That wasn't specifically directed at you.
Mass splinter rifles is an option, albeit not a great one. You can do gunboat DE these days, where a 10 man squad will put out 13 shots per turn at 24 inches and 22 at 12 inches. Give or take one shot if you decide to include a blaster. So that's quite a few points (about 170-190 depending on upgrades) killing a terminator a turn. As for not wiping them a turn, no, we don't. But keep in mind, some armies can field exclusively terminators. Deathwing, GKs. So all we have to shoot at are terminators. Or, that terminator is holding an important position, threatening an important objective, so on and so forth. It's all very intangible, there's a dozen different reasons to need a squad of terminators dead and dead right now. At the same time, there's just as many scenarios where DE can effectively ignore terminators. That's to be said of any army though, really. I like the way Ailaros put it once upon a time when talking about tactics in 40k, said something along the lines that you cannot assume your tactics will work, that you cannot assume you'll get cover or your opponent will sit still because every time you make a move, your opponent will make a counter move to try and unravel your battle plan. So you can't count on the terminators being ignorable.
Which is why I wish Dark Eldar had some better options for dealing with terminators than 'focus fire them with your entire army'
And imagine if gaunts cost 10 points a model without upgrades.
Now, before I get to the main issue, I'll start with nids:
Ok, the huskblade is really scaring you way more than it should. Should an Archon (because Haemonculus's at anything besides pain token giving) make it to your nid monster before being intercepted by a mob of gaunts, I would need at best a 5+ with my 3 or so attacks, a 6 most of the time. You on the other hand squash me the first time i fail my SS save. Besides, why would it even get to that. Just because nids suck and could really use a boost doesn't excuse you from tactics.
As for the v-thropes, whatever could have made them suck in 5th, this is 6th, as in more anti-infantry and less anti-tank (Before Warboss has a fit, its due to the gradual shift of footslogging over transporting due to the new hull point system). Maybe nid players should get off their arses and look for what could be used to their advantage. This is just how the MEQ players reacted to the TF Cannon when the SM codex came out. "Only S6 you say, It can't pop Rhinos, this Sucks". Few Months later: "Look at how it wipes out infantry and makes patches of terrain DT. This is the best gun ever!"
As for nids and no ap 2 weapons, your a hoard army, deal with it. 30 Hormaguants with toxin sacks and maybe adrenal glands, think of the damage. Of course, a naked mob could do some nice damage as well. Maybe the return of the carnifex has come? It can lug two big guns and hits at ap2 (I think, haven't read MC rules to much). In a shooting 6th, this might be big!
Now for Warboss: First of all, stop stretching our words. We get that you consider yourself smart, so don't go correcting people with this that are true but unviable. We're talking about 9-10 wyches in a raider SO THEY DON'T GET SHOT. The build you mentioned would only work with a WWP, but good luck getting those to work. Now more than ever, it needs to be placed turn 1. Almost impossible to get a good location with it.
So 10 wyches:
First With +1 Attack Drug hekatrix with agonizer 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound Shardnet 4 attacks, 2 hit, .666 wound Hydraguantlets 5-10 Attacks, at worst: 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, .8333 wound, at best: 10 attacks, 5 hit, 1.666 wound 7 Reg. 28 attacks, 14 hit, 4.666 wound
Now With +1S Drug hekatrix with agonizer 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wound Shardnet 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 wound Hydraguantlets 4-9 Attacks, at worst: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wound, at best: 9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound 7 Reg. 21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 5.25 wound
So +1S Lets Us Do More Damage (On Par With a SM) But then we don't have weight of attacks. So stop acting so smart, go find a DE codex and READ IT.
This thread is great! I now know that Not only DE terrible and there players demoralized but nids are too. This can only mean that the ORKS will loot and burn all Xenos and then control the imperium!!!!
Lokas, quillava1...you might as well give up. I doubt anyone here is arguing ingood faith anymore.
Half seems to be happy that they can just overwatch unarmored, small assault units to death or feed them cheap 2+ units to auto-win the combat. Sure beats having to form self-reinforcing deployments and advances.
The other half is just happy that their SM/IG/Crons got a boost to the top of the pile and have far less to fear while shooting up the board.
It's a very small, weak frame of mind. I don't play Nids or Eldar, but I actually do worry when those armies get the shaft because my friends do, and if they quit or switch to GK that means a less diverse, less interesting game for me as well.
I don't go "Bahahaha, those Banshees are never assaulting my zerkers out of a Wave Serpent that zoomed the turn before again! IN. YOUR. FACE!"
Imbalance is bad for the game as a whole. While some people may swap armies when theirs is so heavily nerfed, many will just sell theirs off or shelve them until a rules update. This isn't an MMO where you can roll a new toon for free. A new army costs a large amount of money, and some people are simply not willing to pay that after investing once already.
Not to mention, balance would attract more players to the game to begin with. I've personally turned no less than three people away from the game by simply being honest about the army they've picked up. 'Oh, you're looking at nids? They have a pretty steep learning curve and aren't the best right now.' I try to talk up the game as much as I can to people looking to get into the hobby, but I won't lie to them when they're picking up a weak army. That's a huge turn off for new players, that the army they're most interested in will be a frustrating experience to play with. People want a fair chance.
Some people want more than that, they want to instawin. You get that attitude a lot from players who've been spoon-fed every advantage possible already, they don't want to lose their edge because. Well. They can't stand without their crutch anymore.
But in the end, I, and most of the people who've posted positive things in this thread, want balance. We don't want to be better than marine codices or imperial guard. We want to be just as good.
This game would be so much better off with some proper balancing, and I'm still hoping that GW uses electronic codices as the first step towards this. Release them in an electronic format allows them to do the equivalent to patching an MMO. They can tweak balance more often than quarterly FAQs, and can outright edit the hell out of under/overpowered units. I'm hopeful that they'll use it in such a way. Not holding my breath, but hoping.
I can understand the desire for a real CC solution to Terminators, but why does it have to be the Agoniser? Even during the first 3rd edition Codex, the Agoniser was absolutely the best combat weapon available.
Every model intended for combat, had the Agoniser. Wyches don't kill people, the Hekatrix does. Nobody likes Lelith because she doesn't have an Agoniser. Why take the Huskblade when the Agoniser is so reliable?
Of course I can appreciate the DE crowd hankering for an AP2 weapon. The Huskblade should have it. I would be perfectly happy seeing the ECWhip gaining it because its unpopular. I could just about accept Incubi having it due to their background, even if it does fly against the new standard in 6th. But not the Agoniser.
Right now, there are genuine choices.
Fighting Power Armour or MC = Agoniser
Fighting Eldar / Ork = Power Maul
Cheap death = Venom Blade
The weapons which are truly suffering are the Power Sword and Axe. The Sword is essentially a poor-mans Agoniser while the Axe loses that vital Initiative. Rather than trying to shoehorn the Agoniser back into the de-facto weapon for everybody ever, perhaps we should focus on the fact that it now has a niche, and allow the other weapons to have some limelight?
I would be far, far happier with a buff to the Huskblade, ECWhip, Axe and Sword to provide a balanced spectrum, rather than restoring the Agoniser to the default upgrade it has been since its creation.
Incidentally, even AP2 won't save you from a Stormshield (IE- Every Terminator ever). Even if you did get the combat upgrades, the best solution is likely a barrage of Splinters.
Every single squad, every single squad, in either MEQ, or Ork, can take an AP 2 Sx2 weapon. The DE have no Sx2 weapon. Give them an Sx2 weapon, and then they won't complain about it.
Neither do Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Daemons really.
Tau have Railguns, all Tyranid monstrous creatures are AP2 thanks to the Smash USR, Necrons have S+2 (for S7) AP1 I:user (which is 2 so they hit before fists and axes) which also has Armourbane and so rolls 2D6 for armour penetration, making it 1 point of strength worse than a Meltabomb against vehicles but each model gets two attacks instead.
In an ideal world, this could actually be the great balancer, where previously maligned units have that brief moment of glory.
"Hey kids, are you useless? Stuck on that shelf while the real men handle the fighting business? Have you ever appeared in a list of 'What is the worst unit in 40k' and actually justified a spot there?
... Do you also carry a somewhat-unique power weapon?
Well congratulations, you just earned yourself AP2 and an actual place on the battlefield!"
This would include, but certainly not limited to:
- Banshees and Shining Spears
- Boneswords
- Praetorian Staves
- Huskblade and Electrocorrosive Whips
- Honestly, even Terminator Lightning Claws. If only to reduce the number of bloody Stormshields
- Even the Pyrovore, although I think it may take slightly more that that..
Mozzamanx wrote:I can understand the desire for a real CC solution to Terminators, but why does it have to be the Agoniser? Even during the first 3rd edition Codex, the Agoniser was absolutely the best combat weapon available.
Every model intended for combat, had the Agoniser. Wyches don't kill people, the Hekatrix does. Nobody likes Lelith because she doesn't have an Agoniser. Why take the Huskblade when the Agoniser is so reliable?
Of course I can appreciate the DE crowd hankering for an AP2 weapon. The Huskblade should have it. I would be perfectly happy seeing the ECWhip gaining it because its unpopular. I could just about accept Incubi having it due to their background, even if it does fly against the new standard in 6th. But not the Agoniser.
Right now, there are genuine choices. Fighting Power Armour or MC = Agoniser Fighting Eldar / Ork = Power Maul Cheap death = Venom Blade
The weapons which are truly suffering are the Power Sword and Axe. The Sword is essentially a poor-mans Agoniser while the Axe loses that vital Initiative. Rather than trying to shoehorn the Agoniser back into the de-facto weapon for everybody ever, perhaps we should focus on the fact that it now has a niche, and allow the other weapons to have some limelight? I would be far, far happier with a buff to the Huskblade, ECWhip, Axe and Sword to provide a balanced spectrum, rather than restoring the Agoniser to the default upgrade it has been since its creation.
Incidentally, even AP2 won't save you from a Stormshield (IE- Every Terminator ever). Even if you did get the combat upgrades, the best solution is likely a barrage of Splinters.
I Have to Agree With Lokas, thank you for bringing some dignity back into the Dakka community. Not only did you bring an alternative into the discussion, but you did it so calmly and your suggestion didn't suck a__. Its easy enough to do (Just Paint all Your Agonisers Yellow), has what we want and even halves strength to boot (Haha s4 powerfists ). Best of all, its the same price as an agonizer .
If that was to happen, I would like the agoniser to be a proper poisoned weapon and make archon courts viable for once. Hey it could happen, since GW makes $15 a model for the court
and may I note that its funny to see MEQs complain, "We would actually have to USE our 3++!".
Mozzamanx wrote:Thanks Lokas, good to feel appreciated.
In an ideal world, this could actually be the great balancer, where previously maligned units have that brief moment of glory.
"Hey kids, are you useless? Stuck on that shelf while the real men handle the fighting business? Have you ever appeared in a list of 'What is the worst unit in 40k' and actually justified a spot there?
... Do you also carry a somewhat-unique power weapon?
Well congratulations, you just earned yourself AP2 and an actual place on the battlefield!"
This would include, but certainly not limited to:
- Banshees and Shining Spears
- Boneswords
- Praetorian Staves
- Huskblade and Electrocorrosive Whips
- Honestly, even Terminator Lightning Claws. If only to reduce the number of bloody Stormshields
- Even the Pyrovore, although I think it may take slightly more that that..
Lets not forget the most useless upgrade CC weapon in the game, the Tau Ethereal Honour Blade. It grants S+2 (so S5) but is not a power weapon and does not have rending or any special rule like that. So your Ethereal gets 3 WS4, S5 attacks which allow all armour saves and he strikes at I3 and he has no save of any kind.
Every single squad, every single squad, in either MEQ, or Ork, can take an AP 2 Sx2 weapon. The DE have no Sx2 weapon. Give them an Sx2 weapon, and then they won't complain about it.
Neither do Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Daemons really.
Tau have Railguns, all Tyranid monstrous creatures are AP2 thanks to the Smash USR, Necrons have S+2 (for S7) AP1 I:user (which is 2 so they hit before fists and axes) which also has Armourbane and so rolls 2D6 for armour penetration, making it 1 point of strength worse than a Meltabomb against vehicles but each model gets two attacks instead.
Railguns aren't exactly Strength X2, and are ranged, though the TMC are viable they usually hit the cap as a result, the Necron one however has Necrotyrish language written on the side that says "This weapon is built to break EVERYONE!"
Red Viper wrote:I don't see why making Huskblades AP2 would cause anyone to complain. They are very expensive, are only S3, and only Archons can take them. They were essentially AP1 in 5th edition and they were hardly causing a riot.
You'll never fit in in this thread if you don't stop saying reasonable things. Maybe you should call someone a cupcake or a special flower, then tell people they can't read?
Baronyu wrote:On the topic of wishing for balancing addition:
It would be great if mandrake get shred on their "evil-looking blades" and their stealth gets upgraded to shrouded...
Thanks for the idea.
Making Mandrakes better (or at least, make them suck less): Shrouded Daemon (Fear, 5+ invuln, EW, etc) Weapons have the Shred special rule.
Making things better: Huskblade AP2 Agoniser AP3, Strikedown (This is because they don't actually cause wounds - they simply cause the brain to think the body is in massive pain, which can be debilitating). Wyches may take a 5+ invuln save against Overwatch, as dodging bullets is harder than dodging attacks in CQC.
Also, Jink is not that good. It is not bad, but it's more of an "eh" thing that doesn't harm anything, but it can be taken away. Against Tau, if they want you vehicle dead, all they have to do is markerlight it, then glance it to death with some firewarriors. Sternguard with Dragonfire Bolts, that one round from Thunderfire cannons, flamers, etc all ignore that 5+ cover save.
Only a few things actually took a hit, namely Agonisers, Wyches, and WWP lists with MCs.
Agonisers aren't that big of a deal. You can still take out space marines. DE have several long-range AP2 weapons. Terminators on the field? Shoot them with your Disintegrators before you assault them. Soften them up, as they say.
Wyches get killed in overwatch, but you can use screening units to use up the 1 overwatch a unit can do.
WWP/Pain Engines are the hardest hit. Webway portals are fairly useless if you intended on bringing pain engines in, since you can't assault, but you can still use them with Reavers. WWPs were supposed to allow you to bring models in close to the enemy because most DE stuff is fairly squishy, but apparently GW playtests like a bunch of monkeys, so if you want these to be useful, you need to figure out how to use them.
Pain Engines/other slow-moving things are out of luck. I have a feeling that this will be fixed in the next codex, but that's a long time coming. For now, all you need to do is bring out the Pain Engine behind cover and close to the enemy. This requires some tactics and moving things correctly.
tedurur wrote:LOL, the whining and the inabillity to think outside the box is hillarious in this thread. Consider Lokas example where he himself came to the conclusion that 140pts of raiders (which are a far from optimal way of dealing with termies) can knock out 2 termies in one turn, then he went on to say that since 10 Wyches wont beat the remaining termies in combat the DE army is broken.
Well, two things really, 10 Whyces will beat 3 termies AP 2 agonizer or not. Even if that wasnt the case then wtf would you not spend a second turn or simply 2 more Raiders (or heaven forbid, some Disintergartor Ravagers) to shoot the Termies again?
Demanding that ~200pts of Raiders and Wyches should remove 200pts of termies in a single turn is just nonsens.
Just curious, how to you DE guys think that CWE who doesnt have any poison weapons and extremely expensive lance weapons will deal with termies? I can give you a hint, its not by whining that Banshees cant scratch the paint job of a Termie....
I-
Did you actually read my post?
At all? Because I'm not sure how someone can miss the point so far that they're actually shooting at targets in a different gallery down the road.
For one, no. 130-150 (depending on if they have haywires or not) will not win against 3 Terminators in this edition. They'll be lucky to even tie combat. In 5th, they could reliably tie combat and then win out in the second round of combat. I never said anything about them wiping the terminator squad in a single turn. I mean, really, did you even skim my post? I quite literally said they'd win out in the second or third round of combat, not the first.
And how would you suggest I deal with terminators? Torrent them with Venoms, which cost 65 points each and each only inflict .66668~ of a wound on a TEQ squad? Disintegrator cannons, which only inflict .88~ of a wound on baseline terminators, and .44~ of a wound against terminators with storm shields? Not to mention gimp the Dark Eldar's already poor ability to deal with armor on the critical first turn? Please, tell me, how much of my army should have to focus down a single enemy unit with a 2+ save? All of my shooting for a single turn, leaving the remainder of the enemy army free to roam, or a fraction of my shooting a turn, leaving the terminators free to do as they please? Also, what should my assault elements be doing? Cowering in their paper airplanes until that terminator threat is removed so they can finally start piling in without fear of being counter-assaulted by something they cannot, under any circumstances, win against?
Don't pretend to know our army better than us, especially when you lack the basic reading comprehension skills to even understand our gripes.
Also, as to all this talk of weight of attacks. Uh. We have weight of attacks? Wyches can, at best, get 41 attacks per turn. Thaaat's 20-21 hits, annnd 6-7 wounds which requires the wyches get a specific combat drug out of six. That's... that's weight of attacks? Iiiii doooon't think so. Weight of attacks is orks pouring out 90 attacks on the charge. Necron Flayed Ones (disregarding all their flaws) can do weight of attacks decently as well. Not to mention both of these units are strength 4, so the attacks that hit actually do more damage. Wyches do not have weight of attacks. This is a myth.
Hehe, a little tense now are we? Take a minute and relax will you?
10 Plain Wyches with a single shard net (110pts) will, assuming no charge and crappy rolls on the drugs table, do ~0.55 unsaved wounds where as the termies (assuming -1 attack from shards, and -1A from the loss of 0.55 Termies) will do ~0.833 wounds. So as you can see, this sub optimal setup of Wyches will win a batlle (of attrtion) quite handily vs the termies.
As a side not, I like how you say that the Disintegrator is a bad weapon vs termies when it wounds on 3+ and ignores the armour. It will cause more damage than an agonizer (with AP2) wielding Hexatrik and slighly less damage than an Archon with the AP 2 agonizer. Yet you claim the loss of the agonizers AP2 is the end all be all nerfs to DE
Anyway, consider this thread to be on ignore from me for now on.
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And I like the idea of 
I do NOT think that Incubi should get AP2... Nor do I think that Agonizers should necessarily be AP2... But every squad in a Spess Marheen force, and every squad in an Ork force CAN have an AP2 weapon on the squad leader... I could be wrong, but I think that 
Sorry, mis-spoke... 
