Foo wrote:Agreed. It'd be nice if they did *anything* to make Mandrakes a viable unit!

Don't Forget Linebreaker. Yes, Too Many Points, But Its Nice To Hunker Down In a Ruin and Make The Enemy Route a Squad to Deny You the VP. But Yes, When GW's Only Use For Them is Glancing Tanks and Cutting Ratlings, You Know You Shouldn't Take Them.


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On That Note...11th Page!
You Know Its Been My Dream To Make a Successful Thread, But Every Atempt Was Locked. I Just Want to Thank Everyone For Caring

Baronyu wrote:On the topic of wishing for balancing addition:

It would be great if mandrake get shred on their "evil-looking blades" and their stealth gets upgraded to shrouded...

Awful how Mandrakes get the disadvantages of being demons, but they receive none of the advantages... Like having a cc weapon that isn't useless.
They were, imo, the biggest disappointment of the DE codex, I frankly I have no idea why they are classified as Elites when they're outclassed by troops at every turn.

Archonate wrote:

Baronyu wrote:On the topic of wishing for balancing addition:

It would be great if mandrake get shred on their "evil-looking blades" and their stealth gets upgraded to shrouded...

Awful how Mandrakes get the disadvantages of being demons, but they receive none of the advantages... Like having a cc weapon that isn't useless.
They were, imo, the biggest disappointment of the DE codex, I frankly I have no idea why they are classified as Elites when they're outclassed by troops at every turn.

Actually giving them the Daemon USR from the rulebook would help quite a bit. If you gave Mandrakes the Daemon USR, plus Shrouded, plus gave their weapon Shred or Rending, they would be far better to what we have currently.

Couldn't the WWP be useful to get a Cronos in?

That can start dishing out Pain Tokens from wounds caused in shooting straight out the Portal if enemies are in range. Since most players won't be too worried since you can't assault out the portal they won't be standing as far away from it as they might have been in 5th, allowing them to be in range of the Cronos' short range guns. They're all Assault, Template/Large Blast and so can be fired after coming on and with AP3 they'll put a dent in almost any unit they hit.

@archonate Haha true, GKs now have a new favorite hunting animal. The "benefit" is the 5++, which we already have. Mandrakes are cool, but save them for the Golden Demon

Even if our wishes come true, DE will be utterly outclassed. Since I play a Hybrid list, I decided it'd be too much money to transform it into trueborn-venom spam. So therefore I am prepared to shelf my beloved DE until the day in which they return to their former glory. In their place, I am starting a Chaos-Renegade Guard List. I'm starting a project blog so if anyone wants to check it out I'll be putting it up tomorrow. Hopefully returning to MEQs will allow me to actually win and due to being chaos, I won't have a boring marine vs marine. Heck, even chaos marine vs. chaos marine makes more sense.


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A Town Called Malus wrote:Couldn't the WWP be useful to get a Cronos in?

That can start dishing out Pain Tokens from wounds caused in shooting straight out the Portal if enemies are in range. Since most players won't be too worried since you can't assault out the portal they won't be standing as far away from it as they might have been in 5th, allowing them to be in range of the Cronos' short range guns. They're all Assault, Template/Large Blast and so can be fired after coming on and with AP3 they'll put a dent in almost any unit they hit.

With 3+ Reserves Turn 2, The Portal Needs To Be Placed Accurately Turn 1. Unless a FAQ lets them be shot out of a raider, then it'd have to be placed midfield where the arrivees will be shot to pieces.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Couldn't the WWP be useful to get a Cronos in?

That can start dishing out Pain Tokens from wounds caused in shooting straight out the Portal if enemies are in range. Since most players won't be too worried since you can't assault out the portal they won't be standing as far away from it as they might have been in 5th, allowing them to be in range of the Cronos' short range guns. They're all Assault, Template/Large Blast and so can be fired after coming on and with AP3 they'll put a dent in almost any unit they hit.

Too many points spent on a subpar heavy support unit that is now taking up a ravager's slot. Just throw more haemy at it if you want more pain tokens!

quilava1 wrote:

Even if our wishes come true, DE will be utterly outclassed. Since I play a Hybrid list, I decided it'd be too much money to transform it into trueborn-venom spam. So therefore I am prepared to shelf my beloved DE until the day in which they return to their former glory. In their place, I am starting a Chaos-Renegade Guard List. I'm starting a project blog so if anyone wants to check it out I'll be putting it up tomorrow. Hopefully returning to MEQs will allow me to actually win and due to being chaos, I won't have a boring marine vs marine. Heck, even chaos marine vs. chaos marine makes more sense.

I'm heading in that direction myself; not sure if I'll finish painting my DE and sell them or shelve them for 4+ years.

Though if cash is your concern, Imperial Guard is likely not the best plan, mind you. Vehicles are very expensive. Here's hoping you have a friend leaving the hobby and desperately needing to get rid of all his vendettas, Russes and chimeras posthaste!

Foo wrote:

Red Viper wrote:I don't see why making Huskblades AP2 would cause anyone to complain. They are very expensive, are only S3, and only Archons can take them. They were essentially AP1 in 5th edition and they were hardly causing a riot.

You'll never fit in in this thread if you don't stop saying reasonable things. Maybe you should call someone a cupcake or a special flower, then tell people they can't read?

Some people do apparently have a hard time reading... or just have very selective memories. Which one is it in your case? If you're going to specifically call me out in a thread, you should probably bother reading what I wrote instead of just skimming it. I've ignored the last few barbs in an effort to diffuse the thread but I'll chime back in for this one just for you.

warboss wrote:[ I can see Husk blades bumped up as they're very limited to HQish characters and pricey but the bog standard agonizer that EVERY character can take doesn't need it as the roll of killing 2+ saves is already available to everyone.

warboss wrote: I have no problem with huskblades getting changed because they're of limited availablity and more expensive. I have very few issues with Incubi going to ap2 due to their fluff, weapon's look, and the need for a goto unit for the DE to have versus terminators.

warboss wrote: I agree that something should be done but this particular "solution" makes no sense to me. Huskblades at ap2? Sure. Incubi at ap2? Sure. A barbed whip cutting through the toughest armor in the galaxy? Hell no.

People simply just chose to ignore any reason presented and instead countered with (mostly false) examples of how bad dark eldar are. Only in the last page or so have I seen any reason displayed by formerly unreasonable people who insistently claimed agonisers going ap2 is the only solution. If you don't like someones contribution to a thread but they've stated a desire to diffuse the situation by taking a break, calling them out by repeating what they previously said numerous times but you decided to simply ignore and using it as an example of what they should have suggested is a way of getting them to come back.

Sephyr wrote:

quilava1 wrote:

Even if our wishes come true, DE will be utterly outclassed. Since I play a Hybrid list, I decided it'd be too much money to transform it into trueborn-venom spam. So therefore I am prepared to shelf my beloved DE until the day in which they return to their former glory. In their place, I am starting a Chaos-Renegade Guard List. I'm starting a project blog so if anyone wants to check it out I'll be putting it up tomorrow. Hopefully returning to MEQs will allow me to actually win and due to being chaos, I won't have a boring marine vs marine. Heck, even chaos marine vs. chaos marine makes more sense.

I'm heading in that direction myself; not sure if I'll finish painting my DE and sell them or shelve them for 4+ years.

Though if cash is your concern, Imperial Guard is likely not the best plan, mind you. Vehicles are very expensive. Here's hoping you have a friend leaving the hobby and desperately needing to get rid of all his vendettas, Russes and chimeras posthaste!

I also play a hybrid list, if I have to give my army a theme, I'd say it's baron sathonyx's hellions gang and whatever the hell they(or I) pick up along the way.

But I don't think I'll be shelving my DE anytime soon, being hybrid, our shooting side should be more than enough to handle the failure of the assault side, while we can get shot up by overwatch, and as per right now, we still haven't any decent AP2 CC options, we could still deal with power armour or less with our AP3 weapons, so, their roles have changed, and you can't expect as much from your wyches in combat, but it's not the end of the world.

I can see the frustration if you ran a WWP list, as that would mean you'd have to buy more models to repair your list, but hybrid list shouldn't be that bad... right? I'm still lacking in 6th ed experience, you see.

Number four is starting to look awful familiar for one special cupcake in this thread.

Baronyu wrote:

I also play a hybrid list, if I have to give my army a theme, I'd say it's baron sathonyx's hellions gang and whatever the hell they(or I) pick up along the way.

But I don't think I'll be shelving my DE anytime soon, being hybrid, our shooting side should be more than enough to handle the failure of the assault side, while we can get shot up by overwatch, and as per right now, we still haven't any decent AP2 CC options, we could still deal with power armour or less with our AP3 weapons, so, their roles have changed, and you can't expect as much from your wyches in combat, but it's not the end of the world.

I can see the frustration if you ran a WWP list, as that would mean you'd have to buy more models to repair your list, but hybrid list shouldn't be that bad... right? I'm still lacking in 6th ed experience, you see.

I may yet play a few more games before making up my mind. The simple fact it, though, that hybrid lists depend a lot on luck now. If I don't go all shooty, I simply won't be able to kill IG/Necrons/SM fast enough to keep them from killing me in much greater numbers. Just scoring glances on enemy vehicles to keep them from shooting back is no longer an option, so supression is no longer a strategy. Meanwhile, DE craft now can be wrecked by bolters quite quickly, and don't even mention multilasers and Heavy Bolters.

Much has already been said about Dark Eldar CC here, so I won't repeat myself. The options are full Venomspam while praying really hard for Night Fighting, or taking a gamble with the harlie deathstar list that's been going around.

It's definitely not the gameplay I wanted when I started buying DE. In boxing matching, you actually get paid for taking a dive and make the other guy look good. Here, you have to pay cash out of your pocket so IG and marines get their glory.

that sideways.

Lokas wrote:Number four is starting to look awful familiar for one special cupcake in this thread.

Cool link. I see that a certain someone who likes massed attacks examples is a big fan of number three.

Incorrect again.

Can you be anything but wrong?

Lokas wrote:Incorrect again.

Can you be anything but wrong?

I'd suggest that you leave it there, before it gets out of hand. If neither of you can find points you can agree on then agree to disagree. Don't take things over the line.

Iranna.

Sephyr wrote:
I may yet play a few more games before making up my mind. The simple fact it, though, that hybrid lists depend a lot on luck now. If I don't go all shooty, I simply won't be able to kill IG/Necrons/SM fast enough to keep them from killing me in much greater numbers. Just scoring glances on enemy vehicles to keep them from shooting back is no longer an option, so supression is no longer a strategy. Meanwhile, DE craft now can be wrecked by bolters quite quickly, and don't even mention multilasers and Heavy Bolters.

Much has already been said about Dark Eldar CC here, so I won't repeat myself. The options are full Venomspam while praying really hard for Night Fighting, or taking a gamble with the harlie deathstar list that's been going around.

It's definitely not the gameplay I wanted when I started buying DE. In boxing matching, you actually get paid for taking a dive and make the other guy look good. Here, you have to pay cash out of your pocket so IG and marines get their glory.

that sideways.

Hahaha... the bolded part, so very true.

I do agree with everything you said, not ignorant enough to say that our CC is actually good; it wasn't the best, and now it certainly got worse. I'd hate to go full shooting as well. But I don't know, I think I'll give my DE a few more runs in 6th ed before putting them in the coffin... It'll take a while to build up an army this size as well.

Right, right.

Better spend my time addressing the people who actually play the army, with a message of hope at that.

Dark Eldar aren't a dead army. I got into it for the hybrid builds, because I loved the aesthetic of raiders. I have damn near a half dozen of them built, magnetized and primed. This build is dead. Wyches have been nerfed into a corner, they can kill vehicles and well. That's about it unless you're willing to spend an extortionate amount of points on 'em. Wych cults are dead. The haemonculus coven wasn't really good to begin with, but with the WWP portal nerf and grenades being able to be used against MCs, that build is pretty well dead and done too. Venom Spam is alive and well, though... I have to say, feth that build. It's boring to play, it's boring to play against, and it doesn't embrace the many assault tools that sixth left us with. We got a few of our teeth pulled, but the rest are as sharp and venomous as ever.

Beast Packs are still kingly. Cheapest death star in the game, and damned effective.

Jetbikes are finally worth their hefty price tag. Scourges ain't half bad at tank hunting either.

Gunboats are back, since you can now move and shoot. Far from idea, but a decent use of my old Raiders.

Ravagers are still cheap and points efficient, our fliers are better and can actually survive now.

We lost a lot. But we still have plenty to work with. Don't give up on DE just yet.

Besides, there is nothing sweeter than being the underdog. Nobody roots for the big bad OP army except the guy playin' em. You'll have the pleasure of winning games without needing any crutches. You'll get to feel that swell of pride when TFG calls your army overpowered. If nothing else, DE gives you the opportunity to not only feel better than everyone you play against, but to know you are better.

And that wicked smile you feel spreading across your lips as yet another victory is claimed, that dark pride building in your chest. That, my friends, is your first step to becoming a true blue Archon.

Lokas wrote:Right, right.

Better spend my time addressing the people who actually play the army, with a message of hope at that.

Dark Eldar aren't a dead army. I got into it for the hybrid builds, because I loved the aesthetic of raiders. I have damn near a half dozen of them built, magnetized and primed. This build is dead. Wyches have been nerfed into a corner, they can kill vehicles and well. That's about it unless you're willing to spend an extortionate amount of points on 'em. Wych cults are dead. The haemonculus coven wasn't really good to begin with, but with the WWP portal nerf and grenades being able to be used against MCs, that build is pretty well dead and done too. Venom Spam is alive and well, though... I have to say, feth that build. It's boring to play, it's boring to play against, and it doesn't embrace the many assault tools that sixth left us with. We got a few of our teeth pulled, but the rest are as sharp and venomous as ever.

Beast Packs are still kingly. Cheapest death star in the game, and damned effective.

Jetbikes are finally worth their hefty price tag. Scourges ain't half bad at tank hunting either.

Gunboats are back, since you can now move and shoot. Far from idea, but a decent use of my old Raiders.

Ravagers are still cheap and points efficient, our fliers are better and can actually survive now.

We lost a lot. But we still have plenty to work with. Don't give up on DE just yet.

Besides, there is nothing sweeter than being the underdog. Nobody roots for the big bad OP army except the guy playin' em. You'll have the pleasure of winning games without needing any crutches. You'll get to feel that swell of pride when TFG calls your army overpowered. If nothing else, DE gives you the opportunity to not only feel better than everyone you play against, but to know you are better.

And that wicked smile you feel spreading across your lips as yet another victory is claimed, that dark pride building in your chest. That, my friends, is your first step to becoming a true blue Archon.

Ah so its back to 3.5 again except for the hope that one day GW will update us again. Well we should be expecting and update in 7th.

I'd give it another 10 years or so.. from past experience :(

I'm going to keep running my Coven anyway, despite the radically lower chance of scoring a win. I did the same with my Necrons, back when they sucked hard. If it hadn't been for the codex getting Warded i still would be...

Venomspam isn't really my thing, and I'm not about to let my lovingly kitbashed wracks gather dust.

I'm going to have to adapt my tactics, as right now i don't see a single effective way to get my Pain engines anywhere near an enemy, but i'm sure i'll come up with something. We mad scientists are nothing if not inventive..

Plus it will make that occasional brutal, vicious and sadistic victory all the sweeter....

I love making termies evaporate. Ap2 on the huskblade would be so very sweet. And mandrakes getting shrouded. Creatures born of a dimension of pure shadow should be harder to see than a guardsman with a stupid cloak.

Reading many of the posts here, I'm finding a lot of posts that match my sentiment. I'm packing up my DE after playing them almost solidly since the new dex came out and switching to IG, partly this is because the 6th Ed changes move the army away from what I want to play, and partly because my local meta means DE have a tough time anyway.

Yes, sadly I have already bought numerous chaosy things and at the point of no return. My DE leaned more to the assualt anyways, with Duke, his kabalites and a razorwing being my only examples of shooting. I do pack 2 raiders and a venom, but with my wych and coven units down the drain, thats 3 of the 4 troops I played in 5th gone! I wished kabalite warriors would get a boost, but not like this! Its a shame, as I started this army in January and had such happy memories of playing with it. I was like the only Eldar player in my FLGS since jerky mcjerkface (the one who tricked me into believing long fangs could target individually) left. The only hope I see for them is if Eldar gets a ridiculously awesome new codex which I could then ally with.

So yes Lokas, DE aren't dead, it'd just take me months of building and so much money I might as well just start a new army. Who knows, I might bring the DE out everyonce in a while, for old time sake

Of course, I will still post wishes and needs on this thread, if nothing else to combat warboss's horrible internet arguement techniques

Sephyr wrote:

quilava1 wrote:

Even if our wishes come true, DE will be utterly outclassed. Since I play a Hybrid list, I decided it'd be too much money to transform it into trueborn-venom spam. So therefore I am prepared to shelf my beloved DE until the day in which they return to their former glory. In their place, I am starting a Chaos-Renegade Guard List. I'm starting a project blog so if anyone wants to check it out I'll be putting it up tomorrow. Hopefully returning to MEQs will allow me to actually win and due to being chaos, I won't have a boring marine vs marine. Heck, even chaos marine vs. chaos marine makes more sense.

I'm heading in that direction myself; not sure if I'll finish painting my DE and sell them or shelve them for 4+ years.

Though if cash is your concern, Imperial Guard is likely not the best plan, mind you. Vehicles are very expensive. Here's hoping you have a friend leaving the hobby and desperately needing to get rid of all his vendettas, Russes and chimeras posthaste!

Lucky for me, they're only an allied detachment. I currently have the FW conversion kits for renegade guard, FW rhino doors, FW etched brass , FW rouge psykers and a squad of Chaos marines. when the new starter set comes out I'll have a full army. my current plan is:

Lord
Chosen Retinue
Dreadnought/Whatever it turns out to be as rumors now point to it being a new unit (possibly a MC like the dread knight)
10 Chaos Marines
20 cultists
1 primaris psyker
10 vets

then I'll add a leman russ, that new chaos flyer, more marines and I'll have a good sized army

Mesez Wyches are like 10 points a piece. MesezI say I can beat up 5 Terminators with 20 Wyches. No upgrades. =P

LavuranGuard wrote:Reading many of the posts here, I'm finding a lot of posts that match my sentiment. I'm packing up my DE after playing them almost solidly since the new dex came out and switching to IG, partly this is because the 6th Ed changes move the army away from what I want to play, and partly because my local meta means DE have a tough time anyway.

Checked out your blog, you have some pretty awsome BP


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MightyGodzilla wrote:Mesez Wyches are like 10 points a piece. MesezI say I can beat up 5 Terminators with 20 Wyches. No upgrades. =P

uh try no

if you roll the +1s drug
60 attacks
30 hit
15 wound
2.5 die

then you factor overwatch (if they have guns), and the fact that how in khornes name are you going to get 20 wyches to a termie squsd unhurt!?!

Apologies for the late reply. Trying to delete big blocks of text on my phone is difficult at best.

Lokas wrote:Oh no, I know. I was talking in general. That wasn't specifically directed at you.

Mass splinter rifles is an option, albeit not a great one. You can do gunboat DE these days, where a 10 man squad will put out 13 shots per turn at 24 inches and 22 at 12 inches. Give or take one shot if you decide to include a blaster. So that's quite a few points (about 170-190 depending on upgrades) killing a terminator a turn. As for not wiping them a turn, no, we don't. But keep in mind, some armies can field exclusively terminators. Deathwing, GKs. So all we have to shoot at are terminators. Or, that terminator is holding an important position, threatening an important objective, so on and so forth. It's all very intangible, there's a dozen different reasons to need a squad of terminators dead and dead right now. At the same time, there's just as many scenarios where DE can effectively ignore terminators. That's to be said of any army though, really. I like the way Ailaros put it once upon a time when talking about tactics in 40k, said something along the lines that you cannot assume your tactics will work, that you cannot assume you'll get cover or your opponent will sit still because every time you make a move, your opponent will make a counter move to try and unravel your battle plan. So you can't count on the terminators being ignorable.

Which is why I wish Dark Eldar had some better options for dealing with terminators than 'focus fire them with your entire army'

And imagine if gaunts cost 10 points a model without upgrades.

Mass splinter rifle fire is analogous to the methods that many other armies are forced to use against TEQs; DE are not unique in this regard. Few armies are popping terminators like they're pushovers. Orks AP2 ranged weaponry is few and far between, and the power klaw (their only AP2 CC weapon) is unwieldly so I1. Nids AP2 ranged weaponry is completely nonexistant, and while most MCs can deal with terms, they generally die quickly in return. Tau have railguns and fusion blasters for AP1/2, as their plasma is only AP3 IIRC; Tau CC is... well... Tau CC . My point is that there are numerous other armies that struggle for AP2 weaponry while DE have a decent assortment of ranged AP2, as well as access to the Power Axe if necessary. (Orks don't get regular power weapons, just PKs and Burnas :-\ ) I can't imagine it's great to have to leverage so much of your army against a single unit, but again it's not as though DE or Terminators are unique in this regard. So while I can agree that DE might not have fantastic options to deal with TEQ units, they are at least better than half the armies out there. I mean... they're not Guard, don't get me wrong, but then, we can't all be Cruddace's favorite army. (I play Nids and SoB... not bitter at all... XD)

As for all terminator armies, they pay for durability with low model count. Every loss is felt a bit more than even a handful of another unit. I tried making an Ork version of a 2+ list (Warboss in MA with Nobz in MA as troops), and saw that at 1850 my model count was something like 20. *shudder*

quilava1 wrote:
Ok, the huskblade is really scaring you way more than it should. Should an Archon (because Haemonculus's at anything besides pain token giving) make it to your nid monster before being intercepted by a mob of gaunts, I would need at best a 5+ with my 3 or so attacks, a 6 most of the time. You on the other hand squash me the first time i fail my SS save. Besides, why would it even get to that. Just because nids suck and could really use a boost doesn't excuse you from tactics.

As for the v-thropes, whatever could have made them suck in 5th, this is 6th, as in more anti-infantry and less anti-tank (Before Warboss has a fit, its due to the gradual shift of footslogging over transporting due to the new hull point system). Maybe nid players should get off their arses and look for what could be used to their advantage. This is just how the MEQ players reacted to the TF Cannon when the SM codex came out. "Only S6 you say, It can't pop Rhinos, this Sucks". Few Months later: "Look at how it wipes out infantry and makes patches of terrain DT. This is the best gun ever!"

As for nids and no ap 2 weapons, your a hoard army, deal with it. 30 Hormaguants with toxin sacks and maybe adrenal glands, think of the damage. Of course, a naked mob could do some nice damage as well. Maybe the return of the carnifex has come? It can lug two big guns and hits at ap2 (I think, haven't read MC rules to much). In a shooting 6th, this might be big!

Now, I've said several times that while an AP2 huskblade would scare my Nids, I'm perfectly fine with it. I agreed with the logic that it's a rare weapon, available to a select few models (read: archons only, if I'm to believe Army Builder), and hefty in cost so AP2 is certainly manageable there. Still, I'd be a fool to not worry about a weapon that instagibs my TMCs with a single 6 to wound! I may squash you the first time you fail your 2+ SS save, but then the odds basically come down to the same for each army: You will roll that 6 to wound 1/6 wounds and you will roll that 1 on your SS 1/6 times. It would actually be an interesting fight, because things like Combat Drugs and especially the Tyrant's biomorphs would make a HUGE difference. (Lash whips, for instance, dropping you from I7 to I1!)

As to the rest of your post, I'll ignore the implication that I haven't scoured every word of my codex looking for a reason to dust off ~8,000+ points of Nids. Most of the issues with the Tyranid codex are just that, with the Tyranid codex and almost independent of edition. That's a discussion for a whole other thread I suppose, but as for the venomthrope in particular it's issues are:

1. Takes up a valuable elite slot that could be spent on Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Doom, Deathleaper or Ymgarl Genestealers all of which are far more effective and efficient.
2. T4 with 2 wounds means every S8 weapon (of which there are still plenty!) instagibs one. 5+ cover is nice and all, but 2/3 of the time *squish*
3. They have no ranged attacks, no psychic powers and are "meh" in combat with WS3, I3 and a 5+ armor save. *squish*
4. Ork KFFs and even Stormcaller/Rain of "We totally stole this from SWs" work because the model that supplies it can be hidden in a unit. Ventomthropes can't.

Sure, it's poisoned 2+ for its 2 attacks, it has IB-Feed so it gets Rage if it fails it's Ld6 check. Sure lash whips reduce enemies to I1 and Toxic Miasma might one day actually kill something that isn't a grot. Overall though, there just isn't enough to justify taking a venomthrope unit instead of a far more useful (and cheaper) Hive Guard, or a Synapse and 3++ toting Zoanthrope unit.

Orks are a horde army, and they can have AP2 weapons (of one form or another) in most of their units. So being a horde army is absolutely no excuse. Guard (lolz) can horde better than Nids can (50 man blobs say hi!) can they practically poop AP2 weapons. That said, yes, we have plenty of AP2 in the form of TMCs and Smash. Most TMCs are I1 (the Tyrant being the exception, which is ironic as it is the only one capable of taking lash whips...) Rending claws are AP2 on 6s to wound, but that's hardly reliable.

Fexes are still "blah" at best, which is at least a step up from "meh" I suppose. They're expensive, slow (although faster now I guess), and as with elites are simply outshined by their competition. In units of 1, they're blown away by krak equivalents (S8 AP2/3) and units of more than 1 are just grossly expensive. They're not bad by any means, but again there are simply options that are far superior for equivalent (or less!) points.

Obviously Tyranids are not unplayable. There is a pretty much a single build that is still functional, although now there is variety in exactly what options you give your flyrants and what psychic powers you take on Tervigons. Although really, I've rambled about Tyranids enough in a DE thread.

Sephyr wrote:Lokas, quillava1...you might as well give up. I doubt anyone here is arguing ingood faith anymore.
Half seems to be happy that they can just overwatch unarmored, small assault units to death or feed them cheap 2+ units to auto-win the combat. Sure beats having to form self-reinforcing deployments and advances.
The other half is just happy that their SM/IG/Crons got a boost to the top of the pile and have far less to fear while shooting up the board.
It's a very small, weak frame of mind. I don't play Nids or Eldar, but I actually do worry when those armies get the shaft because my friends do, and if they quit or switch to GK that means a less diverse, less interesting game for me as well.
I don't go "Bahahaha, those Banshees are never assaulting my zerkers out of a Wave Serpent that zoomed the turn before again! IN. YOUR. FACE!"

Ah yes... "My side is perfect and your side smells like poo!" Let's not pretend that one side is uniquely renaissance while the other is barbaric Gauls. Both sides are equally guilty in equivalent measures.

quilava1 wrote:then you factor overwatch (if they have guns), and the fact that how in khornes name are you going to get 20 wyches to a termie squsd unhurt!?!

Just because wyches 'suck' doesn't excuse you from tactics.

How does one have tactics for overwatch!?! If you haven't noticed, DE don't really have any expendable units to use as overwatch fodder. Plus, its just common sense, wyches die. My last game saw 3 reach the enemy deployment area alive, 3!

Just so we're all clear, Wyches aren't the only thing that can attack other things in the DE codex. A Scourge unit full of blasters (effectively giving the gun a 30" range) can reliably do damage to a unit of Terminators. Well, unless they pass their 5+ invuln saves.

Wych assault got slapped real hard in the new edition, but lets stop pretending they are our only thing capable of assaulting and killing terminators.

Terminators on the objective? Disintegrators.
Terminators anywhere else? Literally anything else in the codex. We have Jetbikes that can move up to 60" a turn and deal over 40 S4 attacks (or S6 with the upgrades) on a pass. We got Beast packs which are really good. We got quite a lot of AP2 weapons (though ranged), like the Darklight weapons and Disintegrators. In close combat, our options have usually always been to drown them in attacks, with certain wargear being used to eliminate some of the uncertainty of that tactic.

I would argue that the Unwieldy aspect of my Nob's Power Klaw is really not that bad... If I move correctly, he's not getting munched, unless someone wants to Challenge him... and if they don't, he's munching lot's of them... But he's got 31 wounds... DE Helliiarchs can have 20... Makes a difference...

With my play style, which tends to lend itself best to Orkz, I'm actually shelving my Ork force, and opting to go with the DE, as it's something new... And I don't want to run shooty Orkz... doesn't feel right. Although, all rumors about the Unforgiven getting a new dex will make me pull out my Angels of Absolution... But at the moment, heavily leaning towards starting an Emperor's Children force...

I have fielded an Ork Force with as few as 17 models once... 10 boys, big mek, deff dredd as troop, 3 killa kans, trukk, mega dredd... actually won against IG with Plasma Russ spam... Loves me some Mega Dredd!

"Warhammer: Proving that Nerds have more expendable cash than you, since 1985"

quilava1 wrote:How does one have tactics for overwatch!?! If you haven't noticed, DE don't really have any expendable units to use as overwatch fodder. Plus, its just common sense, wyches die. My last game saw 3 reach the enemy deployment area alive, 3!

I was just giving you a hard time, using your own quote.

There are ways though, I suppose. Assaulting with another unit first, for one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:I would argue that the Unwieldy aspect of my Nob's Power Klaw is really not that bad... If I move correctly, he's not getting munched, unless someone wants to Challenge him... and if they don't, he's munching lot's of them... But he's got 31 wounds... DE Helliiarchs can have 20... Makes a difference...

With my play style, which tends to lend itself best to Orkz, I'm actually shelving my Ork force, and opting to go with the DE, as it's something new... And I don't want to run shooty Orkz... doesn't feel right. Although, all rumors about the Unforgiven getting a new dex will make me pull out my Angels of Absolution... But at the moment, heavily leaning towards starting an Emperor's Children force...

I have fielded an Ork Force with as few as 17 models once... 10 boys, big mek, deff dredd as troop, 3 killa kans, trukk, mega dredd... actually won against IG with Plasma Russ spam... Loves me some Mega Dredd!

"Warhammer: Proving that Nerds have more expendable cash than you, since 1985"

Unwieldy is unwieldy. His I3 drops to I1. Granted, I3 isn't top of the charts, but it at least goes simultaneously with guard and before most crons or IG. And there is literally no reason not to challenge him, even with a regular sarge. It's sort of like Champions in fantasy; there is no reason not to direct 1 attack at the unit champ. If you miss or fail to wound, you would have done the same against a regular dude; you've lost nothing. If you kill him though...

And holy crapola I've been playing Boyz mob nobz wrong for years now. Always assumed they were W1 XD

warboss wrote:If you're going to specifically call me out in a thread, you should probably bother reading what I wrote instead of just skimming it. I've ignored the last few barbs in an effort to diffuse the thread but I'll chime back in for this one just for you.

I'm not calling you out specifically. I'm calling out all the toolboxes that spent more time insulting each other in this thread than anything else. If I wanted to call you out, I'd say, "Warboss, you're terrible and I hate you," or whatever.

streamdragon wrote:Mass splinter rifle fire is analogous to the methods that many other armies are forced to use against TEQs; DE are not unique in this regard. Few armies are popping terminators like they're pushovers. Orks AP2 ranged weaponry is few and far between, and the power klaw (their only AP2 CC weapon) is unwieldly so I1. Nids AP2 ranged weaponry is completely nonexistant, and while most MCs can deal with terms, they generally die quickly in return. Tau have railguns and fusion blasters for AP1/2, as their plasma is only AP3 IIRC; Tau CC is... well... Tau CC . My point is that there are numerous other armies that struggle for AP2 weaponry while DE have a decent assortment of ranged AP2, as well as access to the Power Axe if necessary. (Orks don't get regular power weapons, just PKs and Burnas :-\ ) I can't imagine it's great to have to leverage so much of your army against a single unit, but again it's not as though DE or Terminators are unique in this regard. So while I can agree that DE might not have fantastic options to deal with TEQ units, they are at least better than half the armies out there. I mean... they're not Guard, don't get me wrong, but then, we can't all be Cruddace's favorite army. (I play Nids and SoB... not bitter at all... XD)

As for all terminator armies, they pay for durability with low model count. Every loss is felt a bit more than even a handful of another unit. I tried making an Ork version of a 2+ list (Warboss in MA with Nobz in MA as troops), and saw that at 1850 my model count was something like 20. *shudder*

I'm not saying they're unique though. I'd also like to point out that two of the armies you've mentioned (Tau and 'Nids) are widely considered to need buffs as well, and Orks have weight of attacks and shooting in their favor to help deal with Terminators. 30 shoota boyz can put out 60 shots and then 90 attacks, which is terrifying for a 5 man terminator squad regardless of a power klaw or not. The other armies, well. They need buffs. DE could use buffs too, or rather, certain elements of our army needs buffs. Wyches in particular, since their use as an assault unit is... well, it's pretty limited to punking vehicles.

I just wish we were all on guard or marines' level in terms of playability. Unique in our own aspect, but just as viable.

And the idea of a TEQ Ork list intrigues me to no end. I'd love to play against that because that is something I have never ever heard of before, and it sounds really really fun. I'm thinking a couple large blocks of lootas, two maxed out squads of meganobz, two warbosses in mega-armor, put them with the lootaz for mobile shooting, and put the meganobz in the battlewagons to get to where they need to be and smash some face. Hell, points allowing, give everyone a battlewagon. Can meganobz take battlewagons as dedicated transports? Oh man. You could include a couple of meks in the loota squads with the megabosses and make those battlewagons effectively immune to anything that doesn't one-shot them.

I'm going to bring this idea up to my local Ork players, see who's interested in running this list. It sounds like too much bloody fun.

Also, to contribute to the other conversation, Overwatch is a gimmick. It's something that can be very intimidating, but is easily mitigated in a number of ways. 40~ point disposable warrior squads, Reavers with their 4+ cover saves for breaking wind, ICs who detatch from the squad and assault before the primary unit... It basically all boils down to assaulting the target with something that can either weather the fire and/or is expendable enough to not give a gak if it gets punked. Cheap Wyches also do this very well, for the same reason that cheap warriors do well. Fleet lets you reroll successful charges as well as failed charges. If the enemy overwatches you, reroll your charge distance to keep your depleted expendable squad out of combat while the larger squad charges in. If the enemy declines to overwatch, charge in and get in base to base, preventing the overwatch to the primary unit. Win win situation.

No, Overwatch is not a major problem for DE. You just have to think like a proper archon. You're not a guard commander, nor a space marine captain. Your men aren't your brothers, they're not even a currency for you to expend. They are your bootlicks, your lessers, your playthings and your pawns. Worst of all, they are all conspiring to usurp you someday. They want the gloriously lofty position of warlord that you currently occupy, they want to be Archon or Succubus, some demented models may even wish to aspire to the ranks of Haemonculus. Teach them the folly of their ways. Show them just how weak and pitiful they are by throwing them away so that their superiors may profit off their pain. All while locking in the final pieces for your grand scheme, so they see their sacrifice not only as a reminder of their inferiority to you, but a reminder of your complete and utter superiority, and how your mind is an incomprehensible maze of plans and tactics constantly shifting to adapt to any situation. They will remember their place.

I have one piece of advice for any new archons out there. Pick up a hobbying project way outside of your league of expertise. Build them. Fail. Get frustrated. Try again. Get a little better, but now you have models that you hate. Then, then you understand how an Archon views his warriors.

(Seriously, don't do this, I'm being facetious. Don't waste money in this hobby, it's expensive enough already.)

Lokas wrote:You just have to think like a proper archon. You're not a guard commander, nor a space marine captain. Your men aren't your brothers, they're not even a currency for you to expend. They are your bootlicks, your lessers, your playthings and your pawns. Worst of all, they are all conspiring to usurp you someday. They want the gloriously lofty position of warlord that you currently occupy, they want to be Archon or Succubus, some demented models may even wish to aspire to the ranks of Haemonculus. Teach them the folly of their ways. Show them just how weak and pitiful they are by throwing them away so that their superiors may profit off their pain.

And when they are all dead, I'll have the sweet energy from their painful sacrifice...and no one to hold objectives with! Muahahahahaha!

My plan worked perrrrr-fectly!

DE weren't an easy army to field to begin with. Thanks GW for rewarding the over achievers. Lets just change the fluff so every Marine chapter hates each other, then tournaments might actually be fun. Cinematic my foot. Theres nothing cinematic about Smurfs vs. Smurfs (Calgar vs. Calgar Duel Would Be the Funniest Thing I Ever Will Witness)

Lokas wrote:I'm not saying they're unique though. I'd also like to point out that two of the armies you've mentioned (Tau and 'Nids) are widely considered to need buffs as well, and Orks have weight of attacks and shooting in their favor to help deal with Terminators. 30 shoota boyz can put out 60 shots and then 90 attacks, which is terrifying for a 5 man terminator squad regardless of a power klaw or not. The other armies, well. They need buffs. DE could use buffs too, or rather, certain elements of our army needs buffs. Wyches in particular, since their use as an assault unit is... well, it's pretty limited to punking vehicles.

I just wish we were all on guard or marines' level in terms of playability. Unique in our own aspect, but just as viable.

I can not agree more with your last sentence. Having two of my armies neutered by the guy who wrote the IG codex is beyond frustrating to me. Even as old as it is, the IG dex still has more options and more room for building than just about any other book out there. Then you get SoB's stop gap piece of White Dwarf crap (where he admits he nerfed Faith because he had trouble tracking it on his own... ), or "remember all those things on your sprues, they're now useless but for two!", a.k.a., Codex: Go Buy Trygons and Hive Guard.

I still think Wyches can have a use in assault, but probably not as a front line assault unit that most people seem to want them to be. Counter attack units, like Repentia for instance, is a viable role for some units that are really too squishy to be able to handle the first assault wave.

Lokas wrote:
And the idea of a TEQ Ork list intrigues me to no end. I'd love to play against that because that is something I have never ever heard of before, and it sounds really really fun. I'm thinking a couple large blocks of lootas, two maxed out squads of meganobz, two warbosses in mega-armor, put them with the lootaz for mobile shooting, and put the meganobz in the battlewagons to get to where they need to be and smash some face. Hell, points allowing, give everyone a battlewagon. Can meganobz take battlewagons as dedicated transports? Oh man. You could include a couple of meks in the loota squads with the megabosses and make those battlewagons effectively immune to anything that doesn't one-shot them.

I'm going to bring this idea up to my local Ork players, see who's interested in running this list. It sounds like too much bloody fun.

I swapped Lootas for 15 Burnaboyz in my list, mostly to see if I could get someone to walk into 15d3 Wall of Death hits. Beyond that was 2x MegaArmor Warboss, 2x MegaNobz (9 man units) in Battlewagons with Deffrollas, 4x Big Shootas and RPJ, a 3rd Battlewagon for the Burnas, and 2 looted wagons with Boomguns, RPJ and 'ard case. ~2000 points , model count of 40. My 1850 list lacked the burna boys or their ride, so I lost 16 models straight away...

Your list though:
Warboss (MA, Attack Squig, Bosspole, Cybork) 130
Warboss (MA, Attack Squig, Bosspole, Cybork) 130

Lootas x 15 225
Lootas x 15 225

MANz x 10 400
-Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110
MANz x 10 400
-Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110

Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110
Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110

Total cost: 1950
Model Count: 56

"We iz da wata warri-.. wata worri... WE'Z CRUMP LIKE WATA!"

(I'd use the 50 points left over to slap Deffrollas and RPJ on the two MANz BWs)

Lokas wrote:
I have one piece of advice for any new archons out there. Pick up a hobbying project way outside of your league of expertise. Build them. Fail. Get frustrated. Try again. Get a little better, but now you have models that you hate. Then, then you understand how an Archon views his warriors.

This is how I prepare to paint skaven...

and with that I'm off to bed

quilava1 wrote:DE weren't an easy army to field to begin with. Thanks GW for rewarding the over achievers. Lets just change the fluff so every Marine chapter hates each other, then tournaments might actually be fun. Cinematic my foot. Theres nothing cinematic about Smurfs vs. Smurfs (Calgar vs. Calgar Duel Would Be the Funniest Thing I Ever Will Witness)

Except it's Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Guard and Necrons that were the top right before 6th. And the only real C:SM lists to show up in tourneys were Vulkan and those were rather few.

streamdragon wrote:I can not agree more with your last sentence. Having two of my armies neutered by the guy who wrote the IG codex is beyond frustrating to me. Even as old as it is, the IG dex still has more options and more room for building than just about any other book out there. Then you get SoB's stop gap piece of White Dwarf crap (where he admits he nerfed Faith because he had trouble tracking it on his own... ), or "remember all those things on your sprues, they're now useless but for two!", a.k.a., Codex: Go Buy Trygons and Hive Guard.

I still think Wyches can have a use in assault, but probably not as a front line assault unit that most people seem to want them to be. Counter attack units, like Repentia for instance, is a viable role for some units that are really too squishy to be able to handle the first assault wave.

That's what baffles me. The Dark Eldar codex is barely out of its infancy, and yet has been knocked down to a second-tier army already. Our day as a first-tier competitive army didn't last long at all. I mean, at least we got a time in the spotlight (as opposed to 'nids or SoB) but... damn. It's bittersweet. Mostly bitter, not so much sweet.

And I've dabbled with the idea of Wyches as a counter-assault element. That was how I played with my Wracks in 5th. My old list was something to the tune of two haemonculi, a quartet of Venoms, two loaded with warriors and two with blasterborn, two units of Wracks in Raiders and three Ravagers. Throw in some random models depending on my mood for the day like a unit of haywire toting scourges or suicide Reaver squads. My warriors and wracks hung back with the Ravagers, picking off armored targets while the Blasterborn scooted forward and... probably did feth all and died ingloriously. After trying to remove the important bits of the enemy army, I'd hop the Wracks forward and start picking off the units that advanced into the midfield.

The reason I'm leery of doing this with Wyches is the new disembarkation rules. Instead of moving 12 and disembarking 2, we move 6 and disembark 6. The loss of 2 inches doesn't bother me so much as the fact that second 6 inches of movement is affected by terrain. It's veeery easy to set up some piece of terrain between the raider and their choice target, jeopardizing their assault. Especially with random charge distances in. I know for a fact that a full strength unit of Wyches can handle just about anything that I've been plinking shots at for 2 or more turns, but what makes me nervous is how random my ability to get them into combat will be. Fleet provides rerolls, sure, but that's far from a guaranteed charge. And if you leave our gladiators twisting in the wind like that, they're liable to take that wind to the face and fall over dead.

Wracks can still do this, in spite of the fact they don't even have the fleet rerolls. They're tough enough to actually take some fire and survive. Not to mention this happened once already, and all I did was look at my opponent, smile, and say "You'd better run." Getting hit by Liquifier guns twice in a row is not a fate I'd particularly desire.

I swapped Lootas for 15 Burnaboyz in my list, mostly to see if I could get someone to walk into 15d3 Wall of Death hits. Beyond that was 2x MegaArmor Warboss, 2x MegaNobz (9 man units) in Battlewagons with Deffrollas, 4x Big Shootas and RPJ, a 3rd Battlewagon for the Burnas, and 2 looted wagons with Boomguns, RPJ and 'ard case. ~2000 points , model count of 40. My 1850 list lacked the burna boys or their ride, so I lost 16 models straight away...

Your list though:
Warboss (MA, Attack Squig, Bosspole, Cybork) 130
Warboss (MA, Attack Squig, Bosspole, Cybork) 130

Lootas x 15 225
Lootas x 15 225

MANz x 10 400
-Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110
MANz x 10 400
-Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110

Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110
Battlewagon w/ 4x Big Shootas 110

Total cost: 1950
Model Count: 56

"We iz da wata warri-.. wata worri... WE'Z CRUMP LIKE WATA!"

(I'd use the 50 points left over to slap Deffrollas and RPJ on the two MANz BWs)

I want to play this list, oh I want to play this list. That looks like so much fething fun, and you wanna talk about cinematic? Imagine this massive, smog-belching ork armor column being harried and harassed by Dark Eldar pirates on some dusty plain. These trundling monstrosities crushing any light skimmer they catch under their titanic deffrollas, while two dozen blue faced lootaz torrent fire from an open platform on the back of their 'wagon. Meanwhile, Dark Eldar match speed with the armor and nimble warriors leap from venom to wagon, forcing haywire grenades into the engine block and disabling the great vehicle with a terrific crack of thunder. Bossgit Whatshisface tears out of the wreckage, accompanied by a cadre of likeminded, and currently upset nobs who want nothing more to wrap their power klaws around the throat of the speedy gitz who just gakked their ride.

That's a battle I'd pay to see illustrated.

and with that I'm off to bed

Iiiii should probably do the same.

But I've spent all day on and off reading my collection of Lovecraft and now I swear I'm hearing voices. Doesn't help that my nose sprung a mysterious leak while I was plugging the old computer in. Not a bloody nose mind you, nor snot. It was clear, it was thin fluid like water. Perhaps some trapped aqua from my trip to the beach earlier today? Who knows.

But I'm not sleeping anytime soon. If I don't post for a week, Nyarlathotep got me.

streamdragon wrote:I can not agree more with your last sentence. Having two of my armies neutered by the guy who wrote the IG codex is beyond frustrating to me. Even as old as it is, the IG dex still has more options and more room for building than just about any other book out there.

That's not hard when even the books lauded for internal balance have only two or three competitive builds. The IG codex is just as complete a mess as the Tyranid codex - Cruddace got lucky in that he threw so many units and options into the book that some of the gak stuck to the wall and worked. He took the same approach to Tyranids - randomly throw gak at the wall and hope some works. The problem is he didn't throw as much gak at the Tyranid wall as he did to the IG wall, so not as much workable stuff came out of the Tyranid book.

Ha Ha Ha!!!

quilava1 wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:Mesez Wyches are like 10 points a piece. MesezI say I can beat up 5 Terminators with 20 Wyches. No upgrades. =P

uh try no

if you roll the +1s drug
60 attacks
30 hit
15 wound
2.5 die

then you factor overwatch (if they have guns), and the fact that how in khornes name are you going to get 20 wyches to a termie squsd unhurt!?!

So after my attacks you've got two guys left (I round up, cause everyone in this thread says I need the help). If they've got LCs then
6 attacks
3 hits
3 wound
3 die

or with TH / SS
4 attacks
2 hits
2 wound
2 die

Leaving me with around 17 or 18 Wyches left. I'm okay with taking two phases to kill the terminators. Patience is a virtue.

It's been my experinece (as a Deathwing player) that my terminators worst times were being on the receiving end of a hurricane bolter in shooting, or a mob of orks in hth. Make a 2+ roll enough saves and he'll fail one.

And once again, unless you're opponent is playing Deathwing how many 2+ armor's do you actually see on the field? 1-2, 5-7 if they've got a squad of them?

quilava1 wrote:

Checked out your blog, you have some pretty awsome BP

Thanks, I should be adding more photos soon.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

It's been my experinece (as a Deathwing player) that my terminators worst times were being on the receiving end of a hurricane bolter in shooting, or a mob of orks in hth. Make a 2+ roll enough saves and he'll fail one.

And once again, unless you're opponent is playing Deathwing how many 2+ armor's do you actually see on the field? 1-2, 5-7 if they've got a squad of them?

He asked how you're getting a mob of 20 wyches up the board and into assualt unharmed. Any light on that?

Also, you're assuming that there will be no support unit nearby to charge into the melee on your turn to even the odds a bit.

Finally, 2+ is not really that hard to spam. There's Deathwing, yes, but also Grey Knights, BA artificer armor units, Necron semp weave, Sm honor guard. Even the vanlla SM lists here have started to include a second unit of terminators now.

Sephyr wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:

It's been my experinece (as a Deathwing player) that my terminators worst times were being on the receiving end of a hurricane bolter in shooting, or a mob of orks in hth. Make a 2+ roll enough saves and he'll fail one.

And once again, unless you're opponent is playing Deathwing how many 2+ armor's do you actually see on the field? 1-2, 5-7 if they've got a squad of them?

He asked how you're getting a mob of 20 wyches up the board and into assualt unharmed. Any light on that?

Also, you're assuming that there will be no support unit nearby to charge into the melee on your turn to even the odds a bit.

Finally, 2+ is not really that hard to spam. There's Deathwing, yes, but also Grey Knights, BA artificer armor units, Necron semp weave, Sm honor guard. Even the vanlla SM lists here have started to include a second unit of terminators now.

The only one's of those that can actually be spammed is deathwing, GK, and BA.

Necron lords come in one to two squads only (not counting additionals) there's only one to two honor guards (unless you take Calgar, and honor guard aint that good), not to mention the fact that for the longest time only Assault Terminators have been good, and that's due to the 3++, the 2+ has never been good for the longest time.

Sephyr wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:

It's been my experinece (as a Deathwing player) that my terminators worst times were being on the receiving end of a hurricane bolter in shooting, or a mob of orks in hth. Make a 2+ roll enough saves and he'll fail one.

And once again, unless you're opponent is playing Deathwing how many 2+ armor's do you actually see on the field? 1-2, 5-7 if they've got a squad of them?

He asked how you're getting a mob of 20 wyches up the board and into assualt unharmed. Any light on that?

Also, you're assuming that there will be no support unit nearby to charge into the melee on your turn to even the odds a bit.

Finally, 2+ is not really that hard to spam. There's Deathwing, yes, but also Grey Knights, BA artificer armor units, Necron semp weave, Sm honor guard. Even the vanlla SM lists here have started to include a second unit of terminators now.

Just as a point of note.

You can't TAKE a unit of 20 Wyches in the first place.

Wyches max out at 15, and Bloodbrides at 10.

You can't do weight of attacks with wyches, unless you count grenading vehicles to death

Sephyr wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:

It's been my experinece (as a Deathwing player) that my terminators worst times were being on the receiving end of a hurricane bolter in shooting, or a mob of orks in hth. Make a 2+ roll enough saves and he'll fail one.

And once again, unless you're opponent is playing Deathwing how many 2+ armor's do you actually see on the field? 1-2, 5-7 if they've got a squad of them?

He asked how you're getting a mob of 20 wyches up the board and into assualt unharmed. Any light on that?

Also, you're assuming that there will be no support unit nearby to charge into the melee on your turn to even the odds a bit.

Finally, 2+ is not really that hard to spam. There's Deathwing, yes, but also Grey Knights, BA artificer armor units, Necron semp weave, Sm honor guard. Even the vanlla SM lists here have started to include a second unit of terminators now.

He asked how you're getting a mob of 20 wyches up the board and into assualt unharmed. Any light on that?
What, am I the only side that's fighting in a vaccuum? That squad is like 200 out of 2000 points. I've illustrated in a points vs. points scenario that termies aren't the end all. Hell I didn't even factor in the 4+ dodge once I was in hand to hand. I could even use tactics! This bleeds into response 2...so on we go!
Also, you're assuming that there will be no support unit nearby to charge into the melee on your turn to even the odds a bit.
Oh I don't have support of my own? With the other 1800 points I'd thought about spamming some Ravagers, I'm really partial to Talos, Scrouges, even Kabalites, I've got a friend who runs 12 (used to be 14 in the old codex) Raiders in his 2000 point forceforce. You know other items to compete with target priority or soften those 5 termies or his other squads up. But I mean if it's just my 20 Wyches vs my opponents whole army.....I guess I do lose.
Finally, 2+ is not really that hard to spam. There's Deathwing, yes, but also Grey Knights, BA artificer armor units, Necron semp weave, Sm honor guard. Even the vanlla SM lists here have started to include a second unit of terminators now.
Sure it's not. But how many people actually do? You're getting charged up the / yang / whatever for every piece of 2+ you put into your army. Sure I'll give you that vanillas marines might (might) go two fulls squads, but what did they lose in exchange? Aren't artificer armors still capped at 1 per army in their descriptions (honest question, I have no codices with me ATM) That why I've asked out of sheer curiousity how many pieces of 2+ people actually see? In a standard game, in a metagame, etc.? You've quoted me, and tried to bring to light the error of my thinking, but you didn't do me the common courtesy of answering the question.

Because I'm curios as to whether peoples are finding problems first hand or vicariously I would ask, again out of sheer curiousity, that those wanting to participate in my part of this thread do me the courtesy of answering two questions.
1. How many games have you actually played of 6th edition since the rules became available in July.
2. How many pieces of 2+ armor (largest number out of all games) did your opponent field.

Do it just like this example.
(3/12) well MightyGodzilla are you f'n joking? Of course you're forgetting.......




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:
Just as a point of note.

You can't TAKE a unit of 20 Wyches in the first place.

Wyches max out at 15, and Bloodbrides at 10.

You can't do weight of attacks with wyches, unless you count grenading vehicles to death

(3/7)
Thank you for bringing that to the table. 5-15 is the squad size, and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify, I was more focused on whether a 200 point pile of basic Wyches could take a 200 point 5 man assault (well it became assault for ske of ease) Terminator squad. Sans power weapon of course. To adress army vs. army you could say there two squads of Wyches totaling 200 points, pacing each other that hit the Termies on the same turn. Problem solved.

... And here we go again...!

Can't we just go back to imagining all the cool upgrades we could use that won't break the game? Such as incubi getting to AP2, mandrakes getting some form of upgrades, etc etc...

@MightyGodZilla

I'm sure if you just click a random page on this thread, you'd find the counterargument for your argument.

@Fellow DE players

Don't feed, please don't feed.

MightyGodzilla wrote:Sure it's not. But how many people actually do? You're getting charged up the / yang / whatever for every piece of 2+ you put into your army. Sure I'll give you that vanillas marines might (might) go two fulls squads, but what did they lose in exchange? Aren't artificer armors still capped at 1 per army in their descriptions (honest question, I have no codices with me ATM) That why I've asked out of sheer curiousity how many pieces of 2+ people actually see? In a standard game, in a metagame, etc.? You've quoted me, and tried to bring to light the error of my thinking, but you didn't do me the common courtesy of answering the question.

Artificer armour isn't capped.

C:SM can get at max 52 suits of 2+ armour. 2HQs+2 Max Honour Guard+30 Terminators
This is compared to the the 36 SWs get. 6HQs+30 Wolfguard
Deathwing get 92. 2HQs+30Elite+60Troops

Lokas wrote:
But I've spent all day on and off reading my collection of Lovecraft and now I swear I'm hearing voices. Doesn't help that my nose sprung a mysterious leak while I was plugging the old computer in. Not a bloody nose mind you, nor snot. It was clear, it was thin fluid like water. Perhaps some trapped aqua from my trip to the beach earlier today? Who knows.

But I'm not sleeping anytime soon. If I don't post for a week, Nyarlathotep got me.

Not to sound too callous, but if he does get you, please send pics!

acekevin8412 wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:Sure it's not. But how many people actually do? You're getting charged up the / yang / whatever for every piece of 2+ you put into your army. Sure I'll give you that vanillas marines might (might) go two fulls squads, but what did they lose in exchange? Aren't artificer armors still capped at 1 per army in their descriptions (honest question, I have no codices with me ATM) That why I've asked out of sheer curiousity how many pieces of 2+ people actually see? In a standard game, in a metagame, etc.? You've quoted me, and tried to bring to light the error of my thinking, but you didn't do me the common courtesy of answering the question.

Artificer armour isn't capped.

C:SM can get at max 52 suits of 2+ armour. 2HQs+2 Max Honour Guard+30 Terminators
This is compared to the the 36 SWs get. 6HQs+30 Wolfguard
Deathwing get 92. 2HQs+30Elite+60Troops

Of Course, you can't win since you'll most likely have 10 naked scouts as your troops. Plus of course thats like $300 and 1200 pts. in termes alone. yeah, may have trouble fitting in at 2000...

50 ~40 point models and 2 100+ in addition to the mandatory troops with nothing else. That 2000+ point army isn't winning anything anytime soon even. Guard players will cry tears of joy.

Also you miscounted, Calgar get's 3 honor guard squads so it's 72 bodies.

Baronyu wrote:... And here we go again...!

Can't we just go back to imagining all the cool upgrades we could use that won't break the game? Such as incubi getting to AP2, mandrakes getting some form of upgrades, etc etc...

@MightyGodZilla

I'm sure if you just click a random page on this thread, you'd find the counterargument for your argument.

@Fellow DE players

Don't feed, please don't feed.

Actually this will seem a little ironic since you just called me a troll, but the reason I'm not all doom and gloom for the DE is that they're going to be my next army. I really like the minis for the Kabals, Wyches, and Scrouges. I bought about five different unit boxes as they came out. I plan to play a mixed army with a balance of the afforementioned 3 units. So yeah they're my next army...I almost bought a couple of battleforces before the price hike. And I have had my 2+s on the receiving end of a basic Wyche mob. It ain't that bad....changed, but not over.

And noticed no one actually took me up on my inquiry. I did however get a lot of theoretical builds....I'm just sayin.

I'm not worried about termies and never really have been. Regardless of if I can assault and power wep past their armor. I stand by my tatic of spam them with splinter shots. 3 venoms can probally drop a 5 man unit in a turn if I have some luck. Or at least take out a good majority. For combat, wyches still work well enough, with that dodge save, but as a shooting style I generally don't take wyches or any real combat troops except beasts. - and even the only as. Escort for the baron. And that Unit has done pretty well vrs termies in games and I don't have power weapons. (except rending on the birds). What they DO have is a. Veritable ton of attacks. Make a 5 man unit roll 30 saves and he WILL loose at least 3-4 of them, if not all. Same theory applies to any big tough. Spam shots and focus on inflicting saves, and they will drop like the perverbial bricks they are.

-also not whining.. Trying to point out that DE cando well vrs terminator or 2+save armies.

acekevin8412 wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:Sure it's not. But how many people actually do? You're getting charged up the / yang / whatever for every piece of 2+ you put into your army. Sure I'll give you that vanillas marines might (might) go two fulls squads, but what did they lose in exchange? Aren't artificer armors still capped at 1 per army in their descriptions (honest question, I have no codices with me ATM) That why I've asked out of sheer curiousity how many pieces of 2+ people actually see? In a standard game, in a metagame, etc.? You've quoted me, and tried to bring to light the error of my thinking, but you didn't do me the common courtesy of answering the question.

Artificer armour isn't capped.

C:SM can get at max 52 suits of 2+ armour. 2HQs+2 Max Honour Guard+30 Terminators
This is compared to the the 36 SWs get. 6HQs+30 Wolfguard
Deathwing get 92. 2HQs+30Elite+60Troops

Just a quick point: Loganwing get 96... 6HQ+30Wolfguard+60Troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had that happen to me once... Big game, mind you... And I ran a massive Meganob / Dredd / Kan list.

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

I wish Nids had invul saves outside of named characters and Zoanthropes and something higher than T6, but you don't see me whining about it for 8 pages.

we dont like striking at init 1 because for the cost we have the weakest characters. A hextrix with a power axe is 30 points, still T3 6+ save(4++ in cc)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Viper wrote:I've been playing Dark Eldar since 2nd edition. Yeah, I know they didn't have rules... I just played an evil, purple Eldar army. They are my favorite army and I am biased, but here are my thoughts anyway.

Exergy wrote:
Huskblades definitly cost enough to justify AP2. ID just isnt good enough to cost that much.

Agonizers on the other hand. If they are AP2, they become the auto take they use to be. I think having 5 special power weapons in the codex, but only one that is ever worth taking is kind of dumb.

Most reasonable part of this thread... so of course everyone ignores it to focus on the more ridiculous arguments.

I don't see why making Huskblades AP2 would cause anyone to complain. They are very expensive, are only S3, and only Archons can take them. They were essentially AP1 in 5th edition and they were hardly causing a riot. A Huskblade that is AP3 will never be taken. It's too expensive and the Agonizer is a much better choice for AP3.

Agonizer should stay AP3. It'd be a no brainer if it was AP2. Come on guys, be reasonable. GW wants armor to actually mean something this edition, everyone lost something. Venomblades or an Axe are decent enough options.

Even if the Huskblade is AP2, it's still not a very good choice, but it is a fun one. I'm always down for a good HQ on HQ duel, and the huskblade + shadowfield gives me a chance.

Until the Huskblade gets changed to AP2 though, I'm just taking the Duke. He's a pretty solid character and essentially has the old Agonizer, only on a 5+ to wound instead of 4+.

Huskblades are also only availible on expensive HQs so I think it is more than reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mozzamanx wrote:Thanks Lokas, good to feel appreciated.

In an ideal world, this could actually be the great balancer, where previously maligned units have that brief moment of glory.

"Hey kids, are you useless? Stuck on that shelf while the real men handle the fighting business? Have you ever appeared in a list of 'What is the worst unit in 40k' and actually justified a spot there?
... Do you also carry a somewhat-unique power weapon?

Well congratulations, you just earned yourself AP2 and an actual place on the battlefield!"


This would include, but certainly not limited to:
- Banshees and Shining Spears
- Boneswords
- Praetorian Staves
- Huskblade and Electrocorrosive Whips
- Honestly, even Terminator Lightning Claws. If only to reduce the number of bloody Stormshields
- Even the Pyrovore, although I think it may take slightly more that that..

+1 for electrocorrosive whips being AP2 while agonizers are still ap3

choice!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MightyGodzilla wrote:Mesez Wyches are like 10 points a piece. MesezI say I can beat up 5 Terminators with 20 Wyches. No upgrades. =P

unless those 20 wyches start 25" away and get shot up on the way.

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

And AGAIN, because you are not considering this, the dynamic of the Dark Eldar is a strike first army because it is also designed with low toughness and little armour save. It does not possess the traits necessary to survive well to strike at I1, further, it was designed with power weapons having no effective armour saves. The changes to power weapons have adversely affected the army. However, I do consider the power weapon nerf secondary to the major crippling factors that have altered disembarking from transports and the overall survivability of vehicles, the major decline in melee effectiveness and the introduction of overwatch shots during charging all of which have drastically reduced this codex's powers, ability and the actual designer's intent for using the army in the game (see the tactics write up in the back of the Codex by Mr Kelly).

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

And AGAIN, because you are not considering this, the dynamic of the Dark Eldar is a strike first army because it is also designed with low toughness and little armour save. It does not possess the traits necessary to survive well to strike at I1, further, it was designed with power weapons having no effective armour saves. The changes to power weapons have adversely affected the army. However, I do consider the power weapon nerf secondary to the major crippling factors that have altered disembarking from transports and the overall survivability of vehicles, the major decline in melee effectiveness and the introduction of overwatch shots during charging all of which have drastically reduced this codex's powers, ability and the actual designer's intent for using the army in the game (see the tactics write up in the back of the Codex by Mr Kelly).

This is precisely right. My main objection to the lack of viable AP2 in DE CC squads is that it's another nail in the coffin of DE assault, offering enemies a simple, one-size-fits-all solution to deal with ALL DE melee units, froma lowly wych to Vect himself.

But casualty wise, we lose more models to open-topped raiders exploding at S4 instead of S3, for instance, and having amazingly fast open-topped transports means nothing now if they have to move the same 6 inches everyone else does before disembarking models. In fact, one of the big advantages of being a skimmer is lost, because you can't jump over terrain and drop troops unless that terrain is pathetically small.

I sincerely doubt anyone will be convinced at this point, but here's a casual analysis of the dynamics of AP2 CC weapons on sargeants for troops:

-Marine Squad, Power Fist Sgt: S8 (2+ to wound), AP2, I1.
Why he'll usually get to strike: T4, 3+save, can allocate hits to durable pals via Look Out Sir! until his Initiative step comes up. Durability also means less Overwatch casualties, meaning there will be enough models in CC.

-Orb boy mob, PK Nob: S9 (2+ to wound), AP 2, I1
Why he'll usually get to strike: T4, huge masses of expendable boyz serving as his extra wounds, 2-wound model. Cheap boyz and large number means losses to most Overwatch won't make your CC volume less terrifying.

-Wych Hekatrix w/ Power Axe: S4 (4+ to wound), AP2, I1
Why she'll usually get to strike: 4++ save...that's it.
Why she usually will not get to strike: 2-3 dead pals due to overwatch before making contact, on average. Survivors of their initial S3 attacks will on average kill another wych for every 2.5 cc attacks they have before the Hekatrix strikes, assuming any are left from earlier Look Out Sir! attempts in the same phase.

This is pretty much academic: very few people will take axes in DE. It simply does not work with their CCdynamics of having the numbers of MeQ and the durability of GeQ, but with front-loaded killiness to make up for having the worst of both statlines.

So I guess it comes to this now. You've done all the research and the Warpaper 40K and you feel your army's on the short side. Whatcha gonna do?

Adapt
Different Army in 40K
Give up 40K and go to another system
Play DE, refuse to adapt, and complain that you lose

Because GW is not really known repealing big decisions. You're years out from a new codex. If GW does release new units, it will be more likely be new big units than new troop types. I doubt you're going to see any new changes for a long long time.

I think as long as you're having a good time any of your choices are good ones.

MightyGodzilla wrote:So I guess it comes to this now. You've done all the research and the Warpaper 40K and you feel your army's on the short side. Whatcha gonna do?

Adapt
Different Army in 40K
Give up 40K and go to another system
Play DE, refuse to adapt, and complain that you lose

Because GW is not really known repealing big decisions. You're years out from a new codex. If GW does release new units, it will be more likely be new big units than new troop types. I doubt you're going to see any new changes for a long long time.

I think as long as you're having a good time any of your choices are good ones.

I'm quite frankly switching for the next few years. I still will not give up hope on GW making new DE rules. The Voidravens rumored to be coming out, and its main gun is a lascannon thats also a lance. Also, if GW were to make a new transport, say a wave serpent, but spikier, then I'd have high hopes for it as a viable way to transport wyches. If it could carry MC like the SR can carry dreadnoughts, count me in, Talos's are utter cc monsters if they actually make it into combat. Finally, if the Eldar codex is ridiculously good, well we are BB

It could happen, just think how much money GW could make by not only making a new vehicle, but bringing an underused unit like the talos back into the game

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

I don't think they're going to be FAQing generic Power Weapon wargear options to specific kinds, simply because in many FAQs they changed entries from a specific type (Power Sword) into the generic Power Weapon category.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Just to address this point - how about we wait for the next 'dex to be released before making sweeping statements about what GW will or will not do?

As the rules currently stand, the people doing the conversions are acting entirely within the rules, and should carry on if they want to.

Dysartes wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Just to address this point - how about we wait for the next 'dex to be released before making sweeping statements about what GW will or will not do?

As the rules currently stand, the people doing the conversions are acting entirely within the rules, and should carry on if they want to.

Wouldn't be surprised if they did require certain ones though. If people think that just swapping Kharnes ax with a sword is going to let him strike at i4, don't be suprised when GW says "Kharn is counted as having a power ax" (which will really kinda nerf him unless he's given some more PF friendly rules/stats)

quilava1 wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Just to address this point - how about we wait for the next 'dex to be released before making sweeping statements about what GW will or will not do?

As the rules currently stand, the people doing the conversions are acting entirely within the rules, and should carry on if they want to.

Wouldn't be surprised if they did require certain ones though. If people think that just swapping Kharnes ax with a sword is going to let him strike at i4, don't be suprised when GW says "Kharn is counted as having a power ax" (which will really kinda nerf him unless he's given some more PF friendly rules/stats)

Gorechild is a Power Axe, it's in the FAQ.

If they want Kharn to have a sword then it's no longer Gorechild and so doesn't get the always hit on 2+ rule or the extra D6 pen against vehicles.

Oh, don't read other codex FAQs and didn't bother with chaos since I want to learn the rules from scratch when then new book comes out.

But you get my idea, GW will eventually require you to take only certain ones or charge more for different ones (20 pt Power Ax is a possibility). Of course, they may make some ones cheaper. I could see a power maul or lance being 5 pts a piece, could be a steal depending on your local meta

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Got a source for that? Because as far as it goes right now, there's nothing stopping Dark Eldar from weilding power axes. Nothing. It's not based on what the model is sold as, but what it is equipped with in the game. Modelling a Dark Eldar with a power axe is 100% legal, and nothing has suggested GW will start disallowing them for various races, since the power weapon system is a universal system. While I understand some books have types specified (the Dark Angels codex specifies Deathwing sergeants have Power Swords, for example), these are older books. Newer books, which were likely written with 6th edition in mind, do not specify what kind of power weapon you have unless it's a special kind like an agoniser - and even then, there's a universal rule in the rulebook covering unusual power weapons.

-Loki- wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Got a source for that? Because as far as it goes right now, there's nothing stopping Dark Eldar from weilding power axes. Nothing. It's not based on what the model is sold as, but what it is equipped with in the game. Modelling a Dark Eldar with a power axe is 100% legal, and nothing has suggested GW will start disallowing them for various races, since the power weapon system is a universal system. While I understand some books have types specified (the Dark Angels codex specifies Deathwing sergeants have Power Swords, for example), these are older books. Newer books, which were likely written with 6th edition in mind, do not specify what kind of power weapon you have unless it's a special kind like an agoniser - and even then, there's a universal rule in the rulebook covering unusual power weapons.

Well, we have no source, but you can;t expect GW to let us pick forever. Why would you go for a power maul instead of a sword or ax? I personally believe that with the new codexes, the power weapons will be split into different point costs the encourage use of some of the weaker weapons (mauls and lances).

Also, what I think the other guy was saying is as there is no DE ax bit (We have swords and lances), you'd either have to green stuff, plasticard it, ect. A lot of work for a weapon that will be the death of us.

quilava1 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Got a source for that? Because as far as it goes right now, there's nothing stopping Dark Eldar from weilding power axes. Nothing. It's not based on what the model is sold as, but what it is equipped with in the game. Modelling a Dark Eldar with a power axe is 100% legal, and nothing has suggested GW will start disallowing them for various races, since the power weapon system is a universal system. While I understand some books have types specified (the Dark Angels codex specifies Deathwing sergeants have Power Swords, for example), these are older books. Newer books, which were likely written with 6th edition in mind, do not specify what kind of power weapon you have unless it's a special kind like an agoniser - and even then, there's a universal rule in the rulebook covering unusual power weapons.

Well, we have no source, but you can;t expect GW to let us pick forever. Why would you go for a power maul instead of a sword or ax? I personally believe that with the new codexes, the power weapons will be split into different point costs the encourage use of some of the weaker weapons (mauls and lances).

Also, what I think the other guy was saying is as there is no DE ax bit (We have swords and lances), you'd either have to green stuff, plasticard it, ect. A lot of work for a weapon that will be the death of us.

Well if you regularly play against GEQs a Power Maul is the best choice. You'll negate most of their armour saves and wound them on 2s with the bonus of any multi-wound characters become I1 if they take a wound.

Aren't we already faster than Guardsmen? Though seriously, I have no army which I regularly play against. It was GEQs, but I think that guy quit :(

Sure, a power sword will kill twice as many marines as a power maul... 25 percent chance compared to 50 percent.

However, a maul ends up being significantly better against every other armour value. And that's without mentioning the times when Concussive comes into play...

Compel wrote:Sure, a power sword will kill twice as many marines as a power maul... 25 percent chance compared to 50 percent.

However, a maul ends up being significantly better against every other armour value. And that's without mentioning the times when Concussive comes into play...

However, when it comes to DE, you are usually bettter off buying a Venom Blade - A lot cheaper, and only lacks the AP 4 value.

Just throwing it out there, but Dark Eldar do actually have a genuine model with Power Axe. Any argument based around modelling options was always flimsy, but in this case is just outright wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251829_99110112047_DEIncubiretinuemain_873x627.jpg

True enough,

The Succubus has a glaive option too which IIRC counts as an axe these days. Could be wrong though..

The Succubus? I Always viewed that as a spear, which GW counts as a lance. and ax isn't that sleek.

The only ax I could think of for DE would be a warhammer bit

-Loki- wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Got a source for that? Because as far as it goes right now, there's nothing stopping Dark Eldar from weilding power axes. Nothing. It's not based on what the model is sold as, but what it is equipped with in the game. Modelling a Dark Eldar with a power axe is 100% legal, and nothing has suggested GW will start disallowing them for various races, since the power weapon system is a universal system. While I understand some books have types specified (the Dark Angels codex specifies Deathwing sergeants have Power Swords, for example), these are older books. Newer books, which were likely written with 6th edition in mind, do not specify what kind of power weapon you have unless it's a special kind like an agoniser - and even then, there's a universal rule in the rulebook covering unusual power weapons.

You'd be surprised at who I talk with mate, but no, as you can see from my post, I was warning that we don't know what's going to start coming out from the codices of the future, they may clearly state the power weapon type (and I'd not be at all surprised, given historical precedence). I'm just suspecting some folks might end up with their dicks caught in the fridge door.

Mozzamanx wrote:Just throwing it out there, but Dark Eldar do actually have a genuine model with Power Axe. Any argument based around modelling options was always flimsy, but in this case is just outright wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251829_99110112047_DEIncubiretinuemain_873x627.jpg

That isnt an axe, incubi carry klaives, klaives are the weapon entry for incubi in the codex. Klaives are listed in the FAQ and detailed. They are not axes. In fact in the FAQ, there isn't even mention of them being power weapons in the revised description. Just +1 Str and AP3.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Got a source for that? Because as far as it goes right now, there's nothing stopping Dark Eldar from weilding power axes. Nothing. It's not based on what the model is sold as, but what it is equipped with in the game. Modelling a Dark Eldar with a power axe is 100% legal, and nothing has suggested GW will start disallowing them for various races, since the power weapon system is a universal system. While I understand some books have types specified (the Dark Angels codex specifies Deathwing sergeants have Power Swords, for example), these are older books. Newer books, which were likely written with 6th edition in mind, do not specify what kind of power weapon you have unless it's a special kind like an agoniser - and even then, there's a universal rule in the rulebook covering unusual power weapons.

You'd be surprised at who I talk with mate, but no, as you can see from my post, I was warning that we don't know what's going to start coming out from the codices of the future, they may clearly state the power weapon type (and I'd not be at all surprised, given historical precedence). I'm just suspecting some folks might end up with their dicks caught in the fridge door.

Mozzamanx wrote:Just throwing it out there, but Dark Eldar do actually have a genuine model with Power Axe. Any argument based around modelling options was always flimsy, but in this case is just outright wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251829_99110112047_DEIncubiretinuemain_873x627.jpg

That isnt an axe, incubi carry klaives, klaives are the weapon entry for incubi in the codex. Klaives are listed in the FAQ and detailed. They are not axes. In fact in the FAQ, there isn't even mention of them being power weapons in the revised description. Just +1 Str and AP3.

Sorry dude, BRB says "use the weapon as what it apear to be", and before a FAQ, that means DEldar have AP2 power axes.

In the current DEldar codex, Klaive is a 3 grip, big blade like, power weapon, not the halberds in the picture. So, they look like axes, or halberds (wich are just pole axes), so you can take them as axes or spears (tell your opponent before the start of the game, and make it clear when making the list), doying exactly what rules tell you to.

If GW will FAQ it? I dont know, i think they will, giving all non xeno races little or no option, and giving imperial races all the good toys.

And boy, i hope Klaives become AP2, reg ini... That way incubis will worth the 20 points they cost.

Mozzamanx wrote:Just throwing it out there, but Dark Eldar do actually have a genuine model with Power Axe. Any argument based around modelling options was always flimsy, but in this case is just outright wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251829_99110112047_DEIncubiretinuemain_873x627.jpg

This just in!

The entire line was redone and these models have not been available for like 2 years.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
In the current DEldar codex, Klaive is a 3 grip, big blade like, power weapon, not the halberds in the picture. So, they look like axes, or halberds (wich are just pole axes), so you can take them as axes or spears (tell your opponent before the start of the game, and make it clear when making the list), doying exactly what rules tell you to.

If GW will FAQ it? I dont know, i think they will, giving all non xeno races little or no option, and giving imperial races all the good toys.

And boy, i hope Klaives become AP2, reg ini... That way incubis will worth the 20 points they cost.

You may want to re-read the section about Power weapons. Unusual power weapons, ( which Klaives undoubtedly are) tell you that they are always AP3 and what the description says, disregarding how the weapon looks completely.

Otherwise, Nemesis Force Halberds would be Power Lances, for example.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:<snip>



Sorry dude, BRB says "use the weapon as what it apear to be", and before a FAQ, that means DEldar have AP2 power axes.

In the current DEldar codex, Klaive is a 3 grip, big blade like, power weapon, not the halberds in the picture. So, they look like axes, or halberds (wich are just pole axes), so you can take them as axes or spears (tell your opponent before the start of the game, and make it clear when making the list), doying exactly what rules tell you to.

If GW will FAQ it? I dont know, i think they will, giving all non xeno races little or no option, and giving imperial races all the good toys.

And boy, i hope Klaives become AP2, reg ini... That way incubis will worth the 20 points they cost.

Sorry, dude, your entire post was wasted. The FAQ that came out the day 6th ed dropped has them listed as AP3, +1 str, melee, two-handed. Therefore, we are not waiting for a FAQ, they are not AP2, and they are not unusual power weapons because they are not power weapons at all. So it doesn't matter what they look like.

Fail.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Why are Spess Mahrens and Orkz the only ones allowed to field AP 2 weapons on their Sgts?

They're not. Dark Eldar(and any army with Power Weapons) HAVE access to AP2 in the form of using an Axe. You guys just don't like that option because it means attacking at I1, just like any army that takes it.

No, there is no Dark Eldar model with a power axe. You are to use the weapon the model comes with, interpreting which kind it is according to a visual assessment.

If you are one of those folks modelling weapons onto your models (I keep reading deathcult assassins in Grey Knights are having this done much), consider that either future FAQs or codices will specify the type of weapons carried by the unit type and may exclude the weapons your fastidiously gluing onto your figures. You may be looking at a very annoying swapping back to two swords on those DCA or changing your sybarite back to an agonizer.

Got a source for that? Because as far as it goes right now, there's nothing stopping Dark Eldar from weilding power axes. Nothing. It's not based on what the model is sold as, but what it is equipped with in the game. Modelling a Dark Eldar with a power axe is 100% legal, and nothing has suggested GW will start disallowing them for various races, since the power weapon system is a universal system. While I understand some books have types specified (the Dark Angels codex specifies Deathwing sergeants have Power Swords, for example), these are older books. Newer books, which were likely written with 6th edition in mind, do not specify what kind of power weapon you have unless it's a special kind like an agoniser - and even then, there's a universal rule in the rulebook covering unusual power weapons.

You'd be surprised at who I talk with mate, but no, as you can see from my post, I was warning that we don't know what's going to start coming out from the codices of the future, they may clearly state the power weapon type (and I'd not be at all surprised, given historical precedence). I'm just suspecting some folks might end up with their dicks caught in the fridge door.

Mozzamanx wrote:Just throwing it out there, but Dark Eldar do actually have a genuine model with Power Axe. Any argument based around modelling options was always flimsy, but in this case is just outright wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251829_99110112047_DEIncubiretinuemain_873x627.jpg

That isnt an axe, incubi carry klaives, klaives are the weapon entry for incubi in the codex. Klaives are listed in the FAQ and detailed. They are not axes. In fact in the FAQ, there isn't even mention of them being power weapons in the revised description. Just +1 Str and AP3.

Sorry dude, BRB says "use the weapon as what it apear to be", and before a FAQ, that means DEldar have AP2 power axes.

In the current DEldar codex, Klaive is a 3 grip, big blade like, power weapon, not the halberds in the picture. So, they look like axes, or halberds (wich are just pole axes), so you can take them as axes or spears (tell your opponent before the start of the game, and make it clear when making the list), doying exactly what rules tell you to.

If GW will FAQ it? I dont know, i think they will, giving all non xeno races little or no option, and giving imperial races all the good toys.

And boy, i hope Klaives become AP2, reg ini... That way incubis will worth the 20 points they cost.

Dude...

Read The Codex.
Read The Rulebook.
READ THE FAQ.

There is no new way to alter the wargear alloted to units in their codex. I cannot give my Ork Warboss a fething plasma gun just because there is an old rogue trader one with a plasma gun and you cannot change a fething KLAIVE to a power axe because there is no option to take a 'power weapon', only a named weapon, the KLAIVE.

The KLAIVE is clearly described in the amendments part of the FAQ, that being the part that you update your codex to adhere to.

Page 31, Incubi, Klaives:
"Replace this entry with: Klaives are close combat weapons with the following profile:
Range STR AP Type
--- +1 3 Melee, Two Handed

No mention of the words Power Weapon and... yes, it has a full amended profile, so no, no deciding they are power axes.

Vague resemblance in model weapon, whether on old version or latest one, does not supersede written rules for the model.

What would you say to using the upper half of an old Incubi's weapon as a Power Axe if you were doing a conversion?

Mozzamanx wrote:Just throwing it out there, but Dark Eldar do actually have a genuine model with Power Axe. Any argument based around modelling options was always flimsy, but in this case is just outright wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251829_99110112047_DEIncubiretinuemain_873x627.jpg

Those are halberds. Polearms or voulges, perhaps. Still not axes. Just being pedantic.

It's a pointless discussion anyway because power axes are not the answer for DE in close combat against 2+. I'm guessing Haemi's with that sniper rifle or Pathfinders will be your best friends, honestly.

well, since their not available anymore, you'd have to have a boatload of kits lying around or no respect for older models

But yes, we get snipers now
Wondering how a Pathfinder+Haemy combo would work. An extra sniper on a t4 model with fnp could be handy

Dysartes wrote:What would you say to using the upper half of an old Incubi's weapon as a Power Axe if you were doing a conversion?

Sure, on a unit that can take a power weapon and call it a Power Axe, you can if you want to. Cut the axe off a bloodthirster and stick it on a helliarch and call it a power axe if you want to.

Just don't grumble overly when/if GW releases either a FAQ or a new codex confirming power 'Swords' at the appropriate points and you're left sniping the thing back off again. Or they fix agonisers and they once again become weapon of choice.

That kind of presupposes GW gives a crap about Dark Eldar players or their rules, which is not supported by any of the evidence we have.

Agamemnon2 wrote:That kind of presupposes GW gives a crap about Dark Eldar players or their rules, which is not supported by any of the evidence we have.

This basically is a /EOT.

Sad, but true. They never cared about Dark Eldar in the past, and they haven't started to now.

Nope!

This at least alleviates the guilt I'd feel for buying my products from independent retailers and getting codices in .pdf format online. I'd feel bad about not supporting a company that makes a game I like so much, but they fething hate me, so they can kiss my ass.

The entire dark eldar line has only just been rereleased, it was a total and massive overhaul, it took up a lot of Jes Goodwin's time, new plastic moulds, R&D etc.

It would be very poor business decision indeed not to care about Dark Eldar players, it would make the entire relaunch kind of odd if they didn't care about us?

I think it's more a case of 40k editions taking a distinct path and certain codices suffering as the pendulum's swing catches those not ducking...

Now, from a business perspective, given the monetary investment I listed above, Dark Eldar are still a new army and have really not enjoyed their place in the sun. Space Wolves and Blood Angels were certainly not the investment from the design and manufacturing perspective that Dark Eldar were, but both have survived rather well. I continue to hope and believe that GW will release a 'patch' FAQ for Dark Eldar to increase their potency in 6th. I won't mind if it greatly ups rarely used units, that's par for the course, but the army should be given some form of compensation for the losses it's incurred with the shift in focus moving from 5th to 6th.

And GW just started showing us love. We had like 3 or 4 Waves! Every seen meqs get 4 waves? neither have I :p

But yeah if GW just took a few days of super glueing Phil Kelly to his chair, we might have a nice codex again


Hey Warboss, if your even still reading this thread, check out this rumored new CSM weapon

Flails: AP 2 Str 8 reduce WS of targets

But big spikey balls on chains aren't good against armor!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The entire dark eldar line has only just been rereleased, it was a total and massive overhaul, it took up a lot of Jes Goodwin's time, new plastic moulds, R&D etc.

It would be very poor business decision indeed not to care about Dark Eldar players, it would make the entire relaunch kind of odd if they didn't care about us?

I think it's more a case of 40k editions taking a distinct path and certain codices suffering as the pendulum's swing catches those not ducking...

Now, from a business perspective, given the monetary investment I listed above, Dark Eldar are still a new army and have really not enjoyed their place in the sun. Space Wolves and Blood Angels were certainly not the investment from the design and manufacturing perspective that Dark Eldar were, but both have survived rather well. I continue to hope and believe that GW will release a 'patch' FAQ for Dark Eldar to increase their potency in 6th. I won't mind if it greatly ups rarely used units, that's par for the course, but the army should be given some form of compensation for the losses it's incurred with the shift in focus moving from 5th to 6th.

Oh I know about the relaunch, it's what got me into Dark Eldar.

It still seems like DE are not as important as Marines, and will never be.

Sidstyler wrote:But big spikey balls on chains aren't good against armor!

I beg to differ. If you look at medieval times, the spiky ball would be used to crush armor. Ever seen LotR? Those balls got stuck in shields all the time

quilava1 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But big spikey balls on chains aren't good against armor!

I beg to differ. If you look at medieval times, the spiky ball would be used to crush armor. Ever seen LotR? Those balls got stuck in shields all the time

He was being sarcastic

We already had the Spiky Ball/Blunt Force vs Pointy Sword discussion earlier in the thread.

true, true.

quilava1 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But big spikey balls on chains aren't good against armor!

I beg to differ. If you look at medieval times, the spiky ball would be used to crush armor. Ever seen LotR? Those balls got stuck in shields all the time

Way off topic but I know a fair bit about armour (see picture left ) and I don't know where this has come from. Against chainmail spikey balls on chains are effective because the chain is flexible enough to 'give' under the force of impact and break the bones underneath. The spikes would break apart links and penetrate flesh but were too short to cause serious injury - they would, however, form a perfect site for infection which could later become fatal.

Against plate they would not have been used as they were too slow, unwieldy and inaccurate. Warhammers, poleaxes and heavy flanged maces would make good can openers but flails would just bounce. Any other weapon would have to be capable of finding a gap (nigh on impossible against a well-fitted full suit) or striking a joint accurately enough to 'lock' it preventing your opponent from moving the limb in question (do that enough and they can't get you anymore ).

anyway, back to our scheduled programming....

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The entire dark eldar line has only just been rereleased, it was a total and massive overhaul, it took up a lot of Jes Goodwin's time, new plastic moulds, R&D etc.

It would be very poor business decision indeed not to care about Dark Eldar players, it would make the entire relaunch kind of odd if they didn't care about us?

I think it's more a case of 40k editions taking a distinct path and certain codices suffering as the pendulum's swing catches those not ducking...

Now, from a business perspective, given the monetary investment I listed above, Dark Eldar are still a new army and have really not enjoyed their place in the sun. Space Wolves and Blood Angels were certainly not the investment from the design and manufacturing perspective that Dark Eldar were, but both have survived rather well. I continue to hope and believe that GW will release a 'patch' FAQ for Dark Eldar to increase their potency in 6th. I won't mind if it greatly ups rarely used units, that's par for the course, but the army should be given some form of compensation for the losses it's incurred with the shift in focus moving from 5th to 6th.

I'd love for this to happen, but it won't. Never in my experience with GW have they nerfed something so hard with a rules release, then redacted it. They have rarely done the opposite either (Demons breaks WHFB, never gets fixed) The closest we got was the uber nerf to VC from 7th to 8th, then the VC getting a new book right away (unneeded, they were very strong in 7th, I could manage them sucking for a bit while more deserving books got updated) The best we can hope for is one or two clarifications that help us out, but GW's track record is to instead answer a question we never asked, and either nerf that ability no one ever had a problem with, or make it broken beyond belief in a way that never had anything to do with its original text. ("replace 'if the bearer is not in combat' with 'Center a 5" template over the bearer and remove all enemy models under it from play with no saves of any kind.")

I have to say this- though I don't have access to the 6e rules on power weapons so I will be the first to admit that the next statement can be taken with a grain of salt.

From a person who hasn't seen the new rules, with only reading the forums about he new power weapon split..... this current power-weapon situation sounds like an ungodly sloppy mess of nit-pickyness and munchkin-fu that will lead to constant arguments over what each player intended a weapon to be when they converted a figure, versus what their opponent "wants" each weapon to be.

For example- the new vs. old Incubi. The "official" standard for the squad are the new Incubi models, and their Klaives, while being giant swords, have their own special rule. Fine, perfect. Que the ensuing meeting at the game club:

Player 1: I have a squad of the new Incubi. But then I want to still use some of my old Incubi models because I spent good money on them. So I'm going to use one or two as other DE figures wielding power axes, because I think they look enough like axes to qualify (and don't look like "Klaives" so they should cause confusion) and they are still damn cool models.

Player 2: Nope, they have to be used as halberds, because that's what I think they look like. Not axes.

Player 1: Oh really? I come from the days when power axes came in both one-and two-handed varieties. And it's a big chopping blade on a stick- one that's clearly listed on my army roster as an "axe".

Player 2: Hmm.... wait, they are the "old Incubi" so would fall under the rules for the new Incubi so their weapons can't be used to represent anything other than Klaives. So you can't use them as any kind of power weapon, actually. Hah, got you there!

Player 3: What..........what if I want to use an old Incubi model in my Eldar army to represent an Autarch with Mandiblasters and an power axe?

Players 1, and 2: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.................

Like I said. Ugh.

I have to say this- though I don't have access to the 6e rules on power weapons so I will be the first to admit that the next statement can be taken with a grain of salt.

It doesn't even have a leg to stand up on, Klaives are described in the book as their weapons.

If used to represent an autarch with a power axe? Quite fine, it just all depends on what you use it as.

It doesn't even have a leg to stand up on, Klaives are described in the book as their weapons.

Except where one edition of the models clearly have power axe-shaped weapons, and the new models are clearly some sort of chunky sword.

The whole problem with the power weapons rules are that they were clearly written with well-distinguished variants of Imperial Power weapon types in mind, while the other races have to muddle along through nit-pick land because their models are less defined. Furthermore, it's a rule that is completely up to the interpretation of one player to another, which is a horrible nebulous thing to judge by.

For instance, the current Techmarine and techpriest models would have nearly all players calling their weapons power axes. But an old Incubi "Punisher" looks like the exact same design, but players are insisting it can't be.

AegisGrimm wrote:

It doesn't even have a leg to stand up on, Klaives are described in the book as their weapons.

Except where one edition of the models clearly have power axe-shaped weapons, and the new models are clearly some sort of chunky sword.

The whole problem with the power weapons rules are that they were clearly written with well-distinguished variants of Imperial Power weapon types in mind, while the other races have to muddle along through nit-pick land because their models are less defined. Furthermore, it's a rule that is completely up to the interpretation of one player to another, which is a horrible nebulous thing to judge by.

For instance, the current Techmarine and techpriest models would have nearly all players calling their weapons power axes. But an old Incubi "Punisher" looks like the exact same design, but players are insisting it can't be.

If the model is being used as an incubi, his weapons will reflect that fact, if there is a FAQ calling it a specific weapon, it is a specific weapon, unless options include otherwise. If there's a specific rule dictating what it is, it is that. It could be a dinky little knife the size of his finger, but it will be counted as the incubi weapon. And if it's a special weapon with no FAQ rule, but has special unique rules? (Relic blades) It would be an Unusual Power Weapon, which has AP3

If the model is being used as an autarch, the models weapon will be counted as a Power Axe, by WYSIWYG rule, unless he has another weapon to represent what power weapon you are going for.

Yeah, I don't think that's an argument at all. You're using old models to represent a unit in the current codex. You use the rules in the new codex, period.

Klaives add +1 to the user's strength. They are unusual power weapons. AP 3. End of discussion.

Foo wrote:Yeah, I don't think that's an argument at all. You're using old models to represent a unit in the current codex. You use the rules in the new codex, period.

Very true. It gets ludicrous otherwise. But could be very profitable on eBay.

"Incubi have glaives that give +1 S and are AP 3. Unless you have the old, rare incubus miniature that was a limited edition on WD #95, in which case its weapon is an AP 2, S6 weapon that strikes at regular initiative and ignores invulnerable saves!"

As for the disagreement of type, what you buy is what you get (wybiwyg hey, new acronym). For example, if I bought my model an electro whip, but used a yellow agoniser to represent it, then its an electrowhip, not an agonizer. If a person wrote specifically in their list Power Ax, then the opponent has no argument. The arguement if its not in the list is:
a) they are WAAC or a person who really likes to win and will do anything in their power to win
b) someone who's afraid that your tooling (ax vs meq, lance vs horde in the incubi proxy case)
long story short, put it in your list, your opponents arguements have no basis


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:

Foo wrote:Yeah, I don't think that's an argument at all. You're using old models to represent a unit in the current codex. You use the rules in the new codex, period.

Very true. It gets ludicrous otherwise. But could be very profitable on eBay.

"Incubi have glaives that give +1 S and are AP 3. Unless you have the old, rare incubus miniature that was a limited edition on WD #95, in which case its weapon is an AP 2, S6 weapon that strikes at regular initiative and ignores invulnerable saves!"

Wouldn't it be awesome if they released a limited edition special character? It be a great reward to those who have been in the hobby for years vs those who just started :3

quilava1 wrote:As for the disagreement of type, what you buy is what you get (wybiwyg hey, new acronym). For example, if I bought my model an electro whip, but used a yellow agoniser to represent it, then its an electrowhip, not an agonizer. If a person wrote specifically in their list Power Ax, then the opponent has no argument. The arguement if its not in the list is:
a) they are WAAC or a person who really likes to win and will do anything in their power to win
b) someone who's afraid that your tooling (ax vs meq, lance vs horde in the incubi proxy case)
long story short, put it in your list, your opponents arguements have no basis

Except that a Codex currently only gives you the option to take a 'power weapon' and the type of weapon is defined not by what is written in your army list (which would be power weapon anyway as that is the wargear choice) but what is on the model.

I couldn't stick a power sword on a Chaos Terminator and write down in my list that it's an axe.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

quilava1 wrote:As for the disagreement of type, what you buy is what you get (wybiwyg hey, new acronym). For example, if I bought my model an electro whip, but used a yellow agoniser to represent it, then its an electrowhip, not an agonizer. If a person wrote specifically in their list Power Ax, then the opponent has no argument. The arguement if its not in the list is:
a) they are WAAC or a person who really likes to win and will do anything in their power to win
b) someone who's afraid that your tooling (ax vs meq, lance vs horde in the incubi proxy case)
long story short, put it in your list, your opponents arguements have no basis

Except that a Codex currently only gives you the option to take a 'power weapon' and the type of weapon is defined not by what is written in your army list (which would be power weapon anyway as that is the wargear choice) but what is on the model.

I couldn't stick a power sword on a Chaos Terminator and write down in my list that it's an axe.

Well of course wysiwyg still aplies, I'm just saying for those odd weapons (the old incubi being used as a power ax sybarite) it wouldn't hurt. And if your termie has a power ax, why not write down power ax. makes life much easier.

Yeah, I don't think that's an argument at all. You're using old models to represent a unit in the current codex. You use the rules in the new codex, period.

Actually, my words are just being twisted around to the extreme to make me wrong. I never even once said I wanted the old Incubi to represent the new models so I could justify their design for making the Klaives count as "axes". The current rules for Incubi give them a set weapon completely separate from the variations that can exist within the 'power weapons" strata. I totally agree with that.

I'm talking about how "power weapons" are such a ludicrous rule that allows people I'm playing against to say, for instance, that I can't use an old Incubi model with a Punisher as a "power axe" armed Sybarite under the guise of the following reasons:

A: the new Incubi models have weapons with rules separate from power weapons, thus making the old models count under this rule, too. Even if they aren't being used in the place of modern Incubi and they are of a completely different design, their weapons can ever be used as anything but that.

B: Because my opponent doesn't think they look enough like "axes", I can't use them as such, even if I intend them as that.

It'd be like a rule saying that an opponent can stop me from using a lightning clawed figure because I didn't use their vision of what that lightning claw should look like. The power weapon rule seems to be a rule that's hugely open to interpretation by a player's opponent.

I completely understand if a unit is listed in the Codex as always having power swords, or power lances. But I'm saying that the power-weapon rules should be able to make a conversion my choice as to whether it's a lance, axe, mace, or sword.

Well of course wysiwyg still aplies, I'm just saying for those odd weapons (the old incubi being used as a power ax sybarite) it wouldn't hurt. And if your termie has a power ax, why not write down power ax. makes life much easier.

Exactly. If I want to call my powered Egyptian-style scythe on a terminator Sgt. a power axe, it should be my call. Not my opponents.

I don't think those hypotheticals really help much, though. If you're using anything as a "counts as", then what it looks like really doesn't matter, does it? I can use a toothpick in a grape to count as Asdrubael Vect. Once we've decided that's what he's subbing for, that's what he is.

If an opponent is trying to argue that your counts as can't count as something because it looks like something else, then I guess you just have to use something else entirely or chalk it up to a buttwash opponent.

What I'm saying is: at the beginning of the match, you explain what your guys are and what wargear they've purchased. That's what that stuff is. If your opponent doesn't object to your legally-made list then, they've not got much of a leg to stand on once the game's going.

I don't think those hypotheticals really help much, though. If you're using anything as a "counts as", then what it looks like really doesn't matter, does it? I can use a toothpick in a grape to count as Asdrubael Vect. Once we've decided that's what he's subbing for, that's what he is.

To be nitpicky, that's not counts-as, that's proxying. Counts-as requires modelling to represent a model(s) with another that's been converted into a close approximation of the existing troop type. (I.e. Shining Spears represented by using Dark Eldar jetbikes armed with shuriken catapults and with Dark Elf cold one lances on the riders.)

That's the one thing I liked about "power weapons" as the general term in 3-5 editions, even if it was really bland compared to the variety of 2e. I could stylistically do anything I wanted, and that was that. As long as it wasn't a chain-weapon, or a basic hand weapon, or something like that, it could represent a power weapon.

The current way of seperating power weapons into types is all well and good if there are suitable easy ways to do so for an army. If I can remember right, Eldar have about two choices of power axes that will look suitably Eldar. One is from the 2e Howling Banshee with a laspistol and power axe, and the other is the axe bit off of the Phoenix Lord Fuegan model. Other than that, it's a lot of work.

It would be really cool if GW released plastic sprues of weapons themed for each army, even if they were Direct-Only. they could have several types of each kind of power weapon, etc.

Fair enough. I basically treat counts-as and proxying as the same thing.

AegisGrimm wrote:

I don't think those hypotheticals really help much, though. If you're using anything as a "counts as", then what it looks like really doesn't matter, does it? I can use a toothpick in a grape to count as Asdrubael Vect. Once we've decided that's what he's subbing for, that's what he is.

To be nitpicky, that's not counts-as, that's proxying. Counts-as requires modelling to represent a model(s) with another that's been converted into a close approximation of the existing troop type. (I.e. Shining Spears represented by using Dark Eldar jetbikes armed with shuriken catapults and with Dark Elf cold one lances on the riders.)

That's the one thing I liked about "power weapons" as the general term in 3-5 editions, even if it was really bland compared to the variety of 2e. I could stylistically do anything I wanted, and that was that. As long as it wasn't a chain-weapon, or a basic hand weapon, or something like that, it could represent a power weapon.

The current way of seperating power weapons into types is all well and good if there are suitable easy ways to do so for an army. If I can remember right, Eldar have about two choices of power axes that will look suitably Eldar. One is from the 2e Howling Banshee with a laspistol and power axe, and the other is the axe bit off of the Phoenix Lord Fuegan model. Other than that, it's a lot of work.

It would be really cool if GW released plastic sprues of weapons themed for each army, even if they were Direct-Only. they could have several types of each kind of power weapon, etc.

Cool Idea, Could be like the squadron command set (though does anyone even use that?) but could have a nice selection of weapons.
Space Marines Could Have a Mix of swords, axs, maybe some mauls and a fist.
Eldar would be swords, spears, an ax maybe (they just don't seem very eldarish)
Tau could...wait, tau can't take power weapons

So I guess we know how this all worked out now. AP2 Klaives for Incubi!

Oh come on! Don't dig this up...!

...but I agree it's an awesome day to be DE.

I thought it'd be nice to have the resolution definitively in one place!

...and husk blades are AP2 and cause instant death.

This is a shot in the arm of DE close combat, to be sure. Archin get an feasible AP2 weapon, and Incubi nab a spot as a dedicate TeQ-killer.

On the other hand, DE can't get Guide or Fortune from their goody-2-shoes pals. And their transports remain extra-explodey.

Still, definitely a step in the right direction. If they gave DE flyers Vector Dancer and somehow fixed Mandrakes and Webway Portals, I'd say the codex if fixed for 6th ed.

Wow, didn't expect this to be dug up.

I'm pretty proud of myself, the huskblade hint was true! Thank you Phil Kelly for my first and probably only time having a rumor source. My 40k bucket list is complete

Also love the incubi change, it justifies their points and use once again. 4 in a venom with a husk blade archon could be nasty. Also lets me use the archon I bought oh so long ago again. In late 5th I just stuck with Duke and his fun poison collection.