This question has been getting at me for quite a while now, so could someone tell me what the Tyranid Choir is ?
Thanks

Lots of Nid psykers (Zoeys & Tyrants) with the Psychic scream power, netting a high negative to all enemy LD tests within range.

4-5 Psychic screams in the army and you can call it a choir army.

The 3 zoans and the walking tyrant generally stick together (to save you from instant death) as well as to impose those negative mods on the enemy.

Throw in outnumber or below half mods and the enemy runs for the hills!

Ah, ok, thanks

Don't forget to put synapse on one of the zoeys for escalation.

Having to roll leadership to move anything if your Tyrants don't come on by 3rd turn is really, really gay. Had this happen to me just recently and so my new zoanthrope model is now a synapse creature

How does this work against fearless armies?

Posted By jmurph on 09/20/2006 2:21 PM
How does this work against fearless armies?

Short answer, it doesn't.

Long answer?  Most fearless armies are either vehicle heavy, high per model cost, or something of the sort.
This is where the other ability of the choir comes into play.   Warp Blasting expensive targets.

What about intractable units like DAs.... I imagine its the same for stubborn, no use. But it seems that having an intractable unit would limit the effect of this.

Intractible don't save you from pinning or target priority. Stubborn might but I don't think so.

It just means that when you get into CC and they don't retreat they must take those outnumber saves....

Otherthan that fearless armies get to override the choirs effects (part of why they pay for being fearless)

Still Fearless and things like chaos with mocu are very different, while in normal games ld9 with a reroll is pretty much what you need to be "fearless" once you roll on the mods and the enemy is testing on ld5 with a reroll they are hardly as tough....

Anything under ld7 and the enemy is in trouble.

Wait what is the effect of a psychic scream power?

-1 to ld tests to all enemy units within range.... (max is screams 5 in the nid army)

Cumulative effect is a part of the scream? In other words you get to add together each modifier?

My guess is that while it might reduce leadership, you can't make intractible troops run away from shooting.  Granted pinning would become much easier, however, stubborn troops, absent pinning pass all moral checks

So DA's have limited prowess against the choir

If by prowess you mean sitting there pinned as they advance and the stealers, raveners and flying tyrants run up and chew you to bits in close combat/short firefights.

Ya thats what I meant by prowess. But then again, reading through my post, no thats not what I meant. What I meant is that at least when succumbing to shooting powers ASIDE from pinned (pay attention in this part Happy Anarchist, this part applies to you) shooting results wouldn't affect the DA's. Sure, pinning would perfectly apply, I clearly grant that part of the argument. But if all Psychic scream does is lower my LD score, then there are a wide variety of things, ASIDE from pinning that the DA's would be resilient to.

For example, suffering 25% from shooting, wouldn't mean much because intractable allows for failure without falling back.
Stubborn units pass their morale checks automatically, except for pinning so the same applies to them.

Yep this is true...
Not a huge deal, the choir is just part of the army, the 3 zoans and 2 tyrants are still very usefull even if the choir does not work...

You can still out shoot the enemy or take the objectives for the win.

And outshooting basic marines is really not that hard. It's the ones with craploads of terminators/obliterators that get tough.

What is range on Choir?, Seems to me like target priority would help out a lot, take out 2-3 choirs on first turn, or just deal with synapse next to zoanthrope (They are not synapse correct?)  Most likely a tyrant, which can't handle 8 missiles, need target priority, and on first turn, I'll have something get through. 

Why is that? Lots of heavy weapons shots no matter what you do? Because, I have 8 missile launchers, 6 lascannons, 4 HB's and 2 10 man assault squads in my army. The assault squads are stubborn, two plasma guns, and two powerfists in each. 

Spoken truly like someone who hasn't played Zilla Nids.

First off, none of what you listed has LOS to the flyrant.
That leaves the Walking Tyrant with 2-3 Guard.

If you pass all target priority, and there are no cover saves involved (and here is the biggy) your entire army has range and LOS to that unit, you might be able to kill it, if they only have 2 Guard.
Rounded for simplicity
8 Missiles - 5.3 hit. 4.3 wounds
6 LC - 4 hit, 3.3 wounds
4 HBs - 8 hits, maybe 2.7 wounds, 0.9 failed saves.
4 Rapid Firing Plasma Guns, 5.3 hits, 3.5 wounds.
So, totalled up, your entire army's shooting inflicts 12 wounds.
Congratulations, you offed the walking tyrant. (if you don't fail any critical target priority, get the first turn and have LOS to everything)

Now the two Gunfexes likely pin two units, and inflict a handful of casualties.
The three Dakkafexes unload on your assault squads, they are intractable and stay put to be charged by the stealers and raveners hanging about.
The Flying fex, if CC, eats your line, and if shooty, opens fire and then charges.
Oh yeah, and the Zoas also get to unload warp blasts where they will.

And an open field is the absolute best situation you would have. If there is decent cover, they will take 1/3 of your wounds off, meaning you didn't even kill the walking tyrant. That's assuming your whole army still sees them.

Hey, this is a friendly discussion and I am trying to FIGURE OUT my tactics to a choir army. You can ease up on the tone Mr Unhappy Anarchist

I think the point I was trying to make, of course you are free to elaborate on this one, was that my army should at least be able to stand toe to toe with these nids. This isn't starship troopers, my guys aren't just gonna sit down and cry themselves to sleep because there are lots of "Random stupid catch phrase name Nids" on the table. (Flyrant....dakkafex, Who comes up with this crap? Its the same as a 1337 H4x0r!!! and other such spectacularly stupid nomenclatures designed to intimidate new players. who cares.)

Sure I might get pinned, but the POINT i was making was that he can't pin all my heavy weapons down, and you can ONLY have 5 screams so that means that he has to spread the screams due to a high amount of heavy weapons displacement. Of course, if all I shot was my heavy weapons, I might as well retire from the field for purely bad commanding. However, I would also logically pump lots of bolter shots (which in case you didn't know, DO actually wound most nids) flamer shots (which is nice for what seems to be a massive horde of nasty nids, at least genestealers) Of course your scenario assumes I make a series of tactical blunders beyond all belief....which I don't intend on happening should I encounter this kind of army.

Now sure, there is a great chance a zilla nids army like this is going to just be nasty beyond all belief. But I refuse to believe that marine players are just pooched when they fight these kinds of armies. The same goes for what you have laid out to me, to your zilla nids. not all will hit, not all will work, I'll be in cover too and when all is said and done, the match up will be based on strategy rather than "OMGZORZZ ZILLA NIDS PWNZ J00!" So Happy Anarchist, you can knock it off with the air of "I'm better than you bow to my superior knowledge" machismo and realize that its just a game, everyone has a chance to win, there is no such thing as the "Ultimate army".

Some of the really nice things about the zilla nids are the fact that they cause most (if not all) of their wounds by forcing saves, this means that while cover helps zilla nids it rarely helps the enemy as our wounds are coming from our twin linked/living ammo devourer shots.

The choir is especially nice in mission where the enemy has to come to you... Say take and hold where you go and sit on the objective... or behind cover near the objective ready to move/shoot/assualt anyone that is foolish enough to come close, easy to get the choir in range of what you need in this case also.

That said most armies won't actually want to come towards you regardless of the objective. (but hei its their loss)

Things that could really hurt zilla nids imo are whirlwinds! our fexs have 2 attacks in CC so are hardly a threat to most things, (I mean sure they instakill T4 characters and destroy dreads easily enough...but it takes just as much effort to instakill an IGsman

The whirlwinds are devastating to ravaners and genestealers sitting behind the TMC wall...

While speeders do the same task their risk themselves while going after the tyranids while the whirlwind can sit back in safety.

Without the stealers/ravaners to prevent CC all we zilla nid players are left with as CC insurence are the 2 tyrants and alot of people run them with 2 guns each meaning all they have is 3 attacks in CC, not that much better than the fexs.....

Course personally I still run a slashy 6 attack on the charge with rerolls to wound CC tyrant...

Las/plas squads are still a pain in missions where they can afford to sit still most of the game but only if our CC elements are taken out.... Personally I run 3*1 ravaner squads and if I send a single ravaner after a tac squad and it does not destroy them I am very dissapointed in its performance

Domo Arigato mr. roboto.

See that is exactly what I was looking forwith regards to tactics. I figured that using the missle launchers for frag abilities would be awesome against the cc troops, as well, the assaulters for counter charge, rather than running into the middle of the field. HB's for the CC's in the beginning and then the lascannons to focus fire on the first two turns to mess some things up. Unfortunately my familiarity with the nids is very low so I'll need to sit and read their codex.

Wow. Someone has some sand up their but.

FYI, Flyrant, Dakkafex and the like are shorthand that allows us to reference specific models without having to write elite Carnifex with two twinlinked devourers and enhanced senses every time. Very unlike l337 speak, as l337 speak replaces things that are perfectly useable. You will find a wide variety of people on the board that use common abbreviations (the above, MEQ, zilla nids, choir, SAFH, to name a few) so that they don't have to describe a paragraph for everything they want to say.

As for saying that you would use stupid tactics, I was setting it up to give the marine player the best possible advantage.
Bolters are incidental. 10 Bolters rapidfiring will cause
13.4 hits, 2.2 wounds with .7 failed saves. That is a whole squad in rapid firing distance not even causing a wound on average.

Something I realized that I didn't mention is the way zilla nids plays. Against shooty lists, especially all direct fire shooty lists like yours, the light CC bugs sit behind the big bugs wall of defense, usually with the tyrant + guard taking point.
They advance closely together, sticking to cover and trying to avoid obvious fire lanes.
If you don't drop a bug in one turn, they will, if possibly, move a fresh bug up and block LOS so that you can't take the other bugs wounds off and it can still contribute firepower.

The Screams will absolutely not be spread out, the entire point is to get them as close together as possible so that they can all be applied to one unit.

As for running your Assault squads up the board, I was mainly doing that to add their PGs rapid fire to the total to give you the most possible advantage in killpower.


Is it impossible for a marine SAFH to beat nids? Not even in the slightest. You may want to look up some SAFH marine lists that have more firepower than yours to start though.
It will be a difficult matchup in any case, but several six man las/plas squads would add a good deal of firepower. Some whirlwinds could cause some serious pain, either Castellan or stock standard. Same with speeders, though with more difficulty. If you can clear out the close combat types, and your Assault Marines have Power Fists (like they should) then you could engage the monsters in close combat, where they are more vulnerable to a good Pfisting.

I don't mean to be condescending or anything, and there is a wide variety of people that have more experience and knowledge of the game on this site alone.
I believe Vsurma was one of the original adopters of the zilla nids.

Also, just so you get an idea of the nid firepower,
Dakkafex are under the 115 point limit that lets them be Elites choices.
They get 8 reroll to hit reroll to wound BS3 S6 shots.
Even against MEQs they will general cause 2-3 casualties in one volley of fire, and against small squads will cause torrent of fire checks.
Gunfex are Heavy choices that vary in points depending on defensive upgrades, but generally have 2 S10 Venom Cannon shots (which can only glance, but almost assuredly will) and one S8 Ordnance blast per turn (which can pen).
None of these weapons have much in the way of AP by the way, so don't worry about getting your own cover saves so much as being in cover if you get charged by Stealers or Raveners. (otherwise they will strike first instead of simo)

Sall good Happy Anarchist, i just wanted to have some fun with ya.

You can look at my army list and tell me if it will do well against Zilla Nids. Its in the army list section under 2k points DA list. I don't use vehicles, which is assuredly a little scary considering that I have to do well with leadership to win.

I figured on conserving bolter shots for the smaller nids, from what I have seen not many use the armor upgrades on their gaunts, while the GS happen to have 4+ armor if the player feels nice towards their GS, thats where the HB's come in to take out the GS.

Zoanthropes are not synapse, neither are fexes, while fexes can't be insta killedanyways becuase of their toughness, zoanthropes aren't the same (right?). Look at my army list and tell me what might be a smart tactic. My list is extremely shooty, 79 man Dark Angels.

Will take a look at your list.

Generally speaking, unless you have some mobile firepower, you won't be able to shoot the stealers. They don't infiltrate or run ahead or anything. They sit behind the big guys who block LOS.

As for the Zoas, it is becoming common for one to be taken with Synapse, but even if not the walking tyrant and flyrant both have it, so you shouldn't have too much trouble. (Walking Tyrant with 3 guards has 13 wounds. Most people ignore it to take out the models that are currently damaging. You can take out 3 fexes with the same firepower.)

I'll take a look at your list though

Sit and shoot marines won't work on any table with cover. Move and shoot (terminator) marines and drop pod marines can do well.

I believe the godzilla Nids are pretty good, although a properly shooty army should beat them unless played stupid. The Tyranid army needs to close in, psychic scream and warp blast are short ranged, and the Marines can deploy almost 40" away if they want to. Essentially, the Tyranids can never catch the Marines, and if the Marines have enough guns then the Nids will lose the shoot out. This means that the Marines, depending on mission, should always be able to force atleast a draw. Some missions favour the Nids by having a lot of objective markers around the centre of the table, but all escalation missions favour the shooty Marines.

Just avoid point sinks and it should go well. Don't take any tanks unless they are daemonically possessed, take as many Obliterators or Terminators as you can, have a unit or two ready to counter charge anything that makes it too close, and keep the distance even if it includes moving move or fire troops. People seem to forget the cardinal rule that if something is slow and hard to kill you should try to get as many turns of shooting at them as possible. I think Chaos is the biggest problem for zilla Tyranids because both the IW lists and the mixed Daemon lists have the potential to completely massacre the bugs.

I always make sure that the cover is very fair for both sides, ensure that only 25% of the table at max is cover. Aside from that I have a load of heavy weapons that should do well, my problem is figuring out what to shoot at first.

Two assault squads, they are way overcharged (flamer, and two plasma pistols, vet sergeant with a powerfist) nearly 600 pointsfor both, but I think its well worth it for when the genestealers get a little too close and the gaunts. (they are stubborn, so absent being pinned they won't fall back).

I have NO tanks, which I feel really just bog me down, and are far to easy to kill as opposed to a 6man lascannon squad. My army list is in the army list section, tell me what you think about it for a zilla nid army.

I would not worry about not having vehicles...alot of zilla lists have alot of antitank, although my list might be somewhat extreme in this case, atleast personally I WANT to see the enemy bring some armour to the table...

What with 7 S10 shots a turn, 5 S8 shots, and a whole heck of a lot of S6 shots from the fexs, armour is generally not my main problem...

Anything with NO armour on the table is annoying as it leaves the HS fexs rather innefective...
150pts for 2 S10 shots with low ap so not easy to instakill anything as you ahve to pass their armour save and the S8 large blasts that only hit half the time...

That said torrent of fire is a big deal with zilla nids and even the HS fexs manage to pull it off on occasion when the large blasts hit....even more so once you get close as then your 5pts spinebanks add on average more than 1 wound into the mix... (course your not always close enough to use them)

Zoans like to chill near the walking guarded tyrant so are safe from instakill most of the time.



That is untill they run into my Red Terrors / I mean ravaners muhahaah.... 2 ravs took out 2 termy squads and a librarian (3rd rav helped with the lib)................ (ok so maybe this happened in just 1 game but it was a game to be remembered)



Escalation take and hold certainly doesnt....
Nor any other mission that requires you to get closer to the tyranids...

On missions with objectives worth alot of points its easy enough for the tyranid player to sit behind some terrain untill its right to go out and take the objectives... shoot and assualt the enemy off said objectives if they dare try to take them...

On an open field the zilla army does not survive, it REQUIRES terrain for those cover saves. That said once you find some decent cover your set, hiding 7 MCs in 2 terrain pieces is not all that hard.



Funny, doesnt the book say 25% minimum is requires?

Oh I thought max was 25%, Hahahaha oh well seems i'm wrong again.

The main thing is, it is not as easy as you think to get enough heavy weapons.
You have more anti-MC weapons than most lists do, and your entire group of heavy and special weapons firing at MCs in the open with no cover of any sort, with no overkill (basically, the best you could ever possibly hope for in one turn) is 12 wounds.

5+ cover alone drops that to 8, assuming again that your entire list can fire at them.

The main problem is the massive resiliency.

As for Assault Marines, they aren't as helpful against stealers as you might hope, especially at that many points.
10 AM charge 6 stealers.
Stealers strike first (or simo if you charge into cover and use frags)
12 Attacks, 2 Casualties outright from rending. 4 more hit, 2 wounds, maybe another casualty.
24 Attacks back, 12 hit, 6 wounds, 4 stealers drop. (Note, PF probably does better, but the SW carriers also lose a couple of attacks. Probably 5 casualties overall)
You win combat, but they are synapsed and don't fall back. This is good for you, as otherwise you eat a great deal of fire before being charged.
You get charged by 6 stealers. (minimum, possibly other assistance)
18 Attacks, 3 rends and 6 hits. 3 wounds, total 4 casualties.
That leaves 4 Marines to attack back. You can see where this is going.
The kicker? They spent alot less on those 12 genestealers than you spent on your 10 assault marines, and they may very well be carrying 8 man units, or 4+ saves, either of which help them out.

As for Daemon Princes, if anything can actually take out a tooled Prince, it is a tooled Hive Tyrant with Implant Attacks.
Of course, the same goes vice versa. I would probably call the winner the one that wins Initiative.

Main problem is massive resiliency? You look at what you have to destroy, which might be for example 30 T6 wounds, then you take a sample amount of weapons and count how many turns you have to fire them all in order to destroy the said enemy when they're both in or out of cover. If you have more guns, you need less turns, just like you need more turns and/or more guns if the targets are in cover. If the table is favourable and there's no cover, you can succeed with a weaker strategy or a weaker army list than normally.

So as simple as it sounds what you need to do is max out your guns and prevent the enemy from assaulting you, meaning retreating with your troops to deny the enemy a charge of any kind. If you only max your guns but don't move, you might lose since you didn't get as many turns of shooting as you would've liked, and even if you move but only brought a few heavy weapons, 6 turns won't be enough for you to destroy the targets. Take a calculator in your hand, build an army list, spend some time clicking the numbers in and you can see whether your army can defeat this type of Nids or not.

Godzilla Nids have little in the way of strategic units that could prevent the enemy turns of shooting because most players ignore fast (or masses of) Gaunts, Lictors etc, so the battle will be fought on the shooty player's terms, and on his calculator.

For example, if I bring a Daemon Prince, a Lieutenant, 9 Obliterators, 6 las/plas squads, and four possessed Predators with TL Lascannon turrets and HB sponsons as a 2000 point army, I have 27 heavy weapons and 6 special weapons. If the range to the enemy is 24 inches, Obliterators will fire with TL Plasma Guns.

The Obliterators cause 5.33 wounds.
The Tactical Plasma Guns cause 2,66 wounds.
The Tactical Lascannons cause 3,33 wounds.
The Predator Heavy Bolters cause 1,77 wounds.
The Predator Lascannons cause 2,92 wounds.

For a total of 16,1 wounds per turn of firing at 24" when the targets are not in cover, or 11,32 wounds if all the targets are in cover. The truth is of course something in between because some targets are in cover, and some are not. Also, not all the Plasma Guns can always fire since they might be out of range, but I still know for a fact that the true overall damage is higher than this because Obliterators rapid firing with Plasma Guns during that final turn before an assault is imminent is a sight to behold indeed. 9 rapid firing Obliterators cause 10,66 wounds on big Tyranid critters, compensating for two whole turns of Tactical Plasma Guns not firing at all. Later on the Tactical Plasma Guns will naturally also rapid fire. Overall, even if we would simply assume that we cause 16,1 wounds per turn, we would need 2 or 3 (over 48 T6 wounds) turns at best to wipe out a considerable Tyranid army. If the enemy army would be fearsome enough in size or managed to silence some of our guns, we can assume that in 4 turns we wipe any zilla army from the table. In all these calculations we are ignoring the two I6 Chaos heroes that with incredible speed can charge a wounded TMC and finish it off. The heroes are capable of causing 2 wounds each on the charge. I've also ignored the 24 men with Bolters who cause a wound per turn, and two wounds per turn when rapid firing. Of course since there's no gain in defeating an opponent in 2 turns or 3 turns or 4 turns, most of the units are deployed as far back as possible while having the best fire lanes available, aiming for a turn 6 massacre. As a final note, you only need to destroy about 60% of the enemy army and still get a 20-0 win if your own losses are minimal and you kept to the mission. The Chaos army above can achieve that 60% in a heartbeat.

Now, start dropping guns from the above army list, and you constantly cause less wounds and need more turns, or outrageous luck in extreme cases, in order to win. There's nothing to be afraid in a Godzilla Nid army except that you can't allow yourself to take a knife to a gunfight! Some of the GT winners know all these facts by heart and aim to build an army list that doesn't wipe out the enemy in 2 turns because that would hurt their sportsmanship and composition. Their image as a player would also suffer as they would be conveiced as a cheeser and a powerplayer. Instead of maxing out they build a list with careful calculation that only barely manages to wipe out the Nids during the last phase of turn six, still gaining a 20-0 win and other players' falsely placed admirations.

If the Tyranid player was smart enough and didn't fall into following a stupid trend started by someone who didn't have a clue, and actually took units that are faster and cheaper than monstrous creatures, he would then have had the power and ability to force the enemy into having less turns to shoot at his slower and more expensive models. 9 Obliterators causing 5.33 wounds on a Gunfex or Dakkafexes costs the Tyranid player anything between 140 to 200 points, while the same models shooting at Spinegaunts only costs him 75 points.

A simple matchup really, eh, and if you didn't figure it out by now I think pure Godzilla Nids only work against opponents who didn't prepare and brought a sad excuse of an army to the tournament. It's just like armoured company in the sense that it's bringing tanks to the table and hoping that the opponents it has to play against won't have a lot of anti-tank weapons. Too much hoping for my tastes.

And your rebuttal.....?

2000 points is just too high for Zilla imo~. 1850 is the max points value where they're going to be effective simply due to the fact that you can only ever bring 8 MC's + Tyrant Guard. At 1500 and 1850 I think it's still really competitive--With your calculations Therion, you're still assuming that your whole army is firing at them and that you're taking no casualties which harm your heavy weapons. Sure, IW is probably the worst matchup for'em, but I don't think it'd be a crap shoot like you're showing. /shrug

I think Therion is pretty much on the ball on the type of matchup IW is for zilla nids. It's a really tough game, much better for the nids at 1500-1850, but still very tough. I think, in retrospect, that his analysis of gaunt swarm v. genestealers is on the money too (in his zilla army list). My nids have been doing a lot better against MEQ/2+ save armies since I added more gaunts and cut back genestealers.

I still keep some stealers, but go more raveners than stealers, since they're bunches faster.

I think a 60 gaunts, 10 raveners and the full monster/choir would give the oblit IW list a pretty solid run for its money. And yes this means I was wrong in my criticism of Therion's previous analysis of the list

Actually it is more likely than not in a stealer vs marine CC that the stealers emtpy the kill zone and are thus not hit back AT ALL! (oh so sad)

The upgrades the tyrant recieved with the new dex are made for killing DPs, acid maw allows rerolls to failed wound rolls and with init6 and implant attack if your lucky you can kill a DP before it attacks back!

Init6, 6 attacks on charge with superior ws, reroll to wound, implant=dead DP....on average (course I never manage in an actual game!)



Winged tyrant, 3 units of ravaners



Or if he used terrain to block los and...oh yea shot back
Things might be different than the above case.....

Say take and hold mission...you take your army (all 7 MCs....7 models (hard to hide) and stick them behind a forrest, wait for the last turn and walk onto the objective, shooting and assualting anyone off the objective as you go.....

Having the toughest guns rarely guarantees you a win....or even an advantage in the case of immobile or slow guns.

If IW beats zilla so well how come you never hear of this?

Posted By Therion- on 09/25/2006 2:39 AM

There's nothing to be afraid in a Godzilla Nid army except that you can't allow yourself to take a knife to a gunfight! 

Sigged.

Saying a list sucks because IW beats it is a bit of a stretch.
The number of lists that can even compete on the same levels as IW are very slim.


Anyway, the standard zilla list will almost assuredly include three units of raveners and a winged tyrant, and usually gaunts too, particularly at 2000 points.
However, the gaunts don't protect you as much as you might think, as they can't block LOS to your MCs. Leaping/flying gaunts can get into close combat faster, but are also more expensive than spine or termagaunts.

Now, zilla nids do rely on your opponent not bringing enough heavy weapons to deal with them. Against most armies, they can get away with this. Most lists don't have 9 models that can have whatever weapon they need at the time. Most lists don't have 4 Heavy Support choices.
Most lists don't take more than 15 high strength, high ap weapons. For the vast majority of lists, doing so would cause them to instantly lose against any horde army, or even mostly infantry MEQ lists.

Even still, the matchup against IW is not as one sided as you make it appear. Charge the wounded MCs with your killy chaos character and they will then be charged right back by stealers. 3 or 4 stealers should kill a 2 wound Lt on the charge. If it has an invulnerable, a 6 stealer brood should still handle it.

Stealers, raveners and gaunts should tie up or injure oblits decently. Vehicles can be stopped from firing with tremendous ease by Gunfex, with Dakkafex supporting fire. Even Chaos Preds can be damaged over enough time by them. There is nothing that protects them from Glancing 6 or Pen 4+.

On the other hand, as you said, massed plasma fire is pain. Another pain is the fact that they are T4(5) with 2+ armor and a 5+ Inv.

On the other other hand, Dakkafexs should be forcing fall backs (which Chaos marines don't have ATSKF to rely on) and torrent of fire checks on 6 man las/plas, their favored targets.

Really, it comes down mostly to player skill because they are both top tier lists. I will not deny that overall, the IW list is stronger. But it is no secret that the Iron Warriors is the strongest competetive list in the game.
Other people are learning that the zilla nids are a top tier list as well though.

You can't stop a possessed predator very easily with a venom cannon

Chaos marines just have MOCU which lets them reroll LD9. That's basically ATSKNF until you get within scream range.

Stealers I don't think will ever get to fight vs. IW. They are too vulnerable to the 8 heavy bolters on preds. Too easy to punch a hole through a carni and then gat all the stealers behind it to death.

Don't get me wrong. I think Zilla is a top tier list, because pretty much Lysanderwing (30 always going first terminators who start in optimal range == gay) and IW are the only ones with a solid answer to it in a Take All Comers environment. Most other armies have to compromise their integrity against other armies to be able to shake Zilla down easily, but assault cannons and obliterators are good at everything. Thankfully, normal marines need landspeeders in order to get enough assault cannons to be scary (and we all know what happens when you bring a paper airplane army against dakkafexes).

You can go a lot of tournaments without running into 9 obliterators or the dreaded yellowboys. And even when you do hit them, you've got a lot of avenues for victory.

also: Daemon bombs are not really as scary to Zilla as people make them out to be. When you put 8 gaunts in cover in front of your carnifex, daemonettes suddenly don't look so great. Getting shot the next turn and making your instability test at -4 is not happiness.

Most SM lists can have 20+ heavy weapons, two or three dev squads each with 4 missle launchers (12) 6 las/plasma squads (24), then fast attack squads with plasma pistols or flamers (plas guns add 2 more to 26). Then add maybe a couple of tornado's and you have 3 assault cannons and 3 HBs (32) then a commander with a powerfist and plasma pistol (33)

There you go, loads of heavy and specialized weapons. Understandably the use of ranged weapons is important, but for these kinds of nids armies, it seems to me that there are two very scary threats. First, the assaulting genestealers (when aren't they a threat??) and then the gaunts which are in the way (or at least forcing leadership for non MC units).

Second threat, you have to deal with the problems involving the monstrous nids, zoanthropes, and carnafexes. My money is placed on first downing these guys with your heavy weapons. Most likely they will be in cover, which will make life harder, they will have 4+ at worst 5+ right? Right. So your heavy weapons, while they will be useful will be dramatically less useful against the big nids when they are in cover. My advice, from what I can surmise, is that you should focus fire, on what? I dont really know cause I'm just talking here, but focus fire until zilla nid after nid falls down.

What I've experienced, is a problem when the Assaulters start to get close. Then you have a problem, if your shooters get assaulted your in trouble, because you have lost a point of suppression. At the same time, you have to deal with the assaulters. My guess, is have something to get rid of the genestealers, (MOST important they will rip your dudes to pieces).

Thats what I have, but then again most likely its going to come down to lady luck, and your own cereberal fortitude.

The fifth rule of Marine Club is: Guns on landspeeders don't count toward your heavy weapon total.

Static missile launchers are of dubious benefit because you can't bring enough mobile AP2 guns to bear to scare off the flying Tyrant. That's why Iron Warriors rule and space marines drool.

You start swapping those dev squads for terminator squads, and the game gets at least interesting.

Also, it isn't just that other lists can't bring enough heavy weapons to down zilla nids.
Any list can do that. Just like they can do the same to Armoured Companies.

The problem is, most lists don't do that, because for 95% of the lists out there it means lowering the amount of weapons for killing infantry, including 3+ infantry.
With IW & Assault Cannon based lists, they can do both.

Hmm. VCs vs preds. One S10 hit, most of the time the S8 shouldn't do much. So with two gunfexes you should glance preds once. They get a 50% chance to ignore it, I believe (if you don't roll a six anyway).
Yeah, your only real hope is to let loose with the warp blasts.

Possessed preds ignore stunned and lower. So 50% of the glancing chart. And they still shoot on a 5, just can't move, and on a 4lose a gun.

...and they have plenty of guns each I'm glad to hear you are using more Gaunts now Longshot. I always knew it would be better to have some cannonfodder around. No matter how horrendous casualties Obliterators or Preds might inflict on Spinegaunts, it's not nearly as bad as what they cause on Carnifexes and Genestealers. The only way to win with any army is to not let the enemy fight on his terms.

Yeah I worked it out Having horrendous casualties on 40 pt squads is hardly something to worry about. Any time something that could be shooting a lascannon shoots a gaunt == points for me. Any time a squad of fearless gaunts soaks up an obliterator squad for a turn of firing, again, points.

I think it's important to have some serious counterassault, but I'm maxing out raveners before I bother buying genestealers. They're just flat out better. People constantly underestimate how fast my list is with all the raveners gaunts and tyrant runnin together.

So basically "most" SM lists are immobile and lose by default on most missions that require you to move (those being.....pretty much all missions)

4th ed is all about mobility.... Most SM lists I see take preds over Devs for HS though I do see both.
Granted I play 1500pts as that is the normal level here in Finland.


Getting alot of fodder into 1500pts lists is sometimes tough, at 2k you can easily have 100 gaunts if you really want....personally I like scuttling spinegaunts in bigger games though I rarely play any.

No no no, I don't mean to say that most lists aren't mobile. In fact most lists are like as you say vsurma. However, my point was that if a SM wanted to have loads of heavy weapons, they certainly could do so at the extreme lack of mobility.

The only reason I take a large amount of heavy weapons is because Dark Angels are automatically intractable, which is very nice if you expect to succumb to other heavy fire.

Just out of curiosity, how do the gaunts eat up fire from the oblits?
I would think they would ignore them and fire at the big guys.
I think having a few is a good idea, for tying up, preventing charges on the fex, occasional screen/extra bodies for stealers/raveners, but I don't see how they would help prevent fire on your MCs?

I like gaunts, and think having at least two small spinegaunts is a priority, but I see them as more incidentally useful rather than vital.

If you don't shoot the gaunts, you get a 40-60pt squad of gaunts tying up obliterators on turn 3.

Yeah, but surely they have some incidental fire somewhere.

Well actually, I guess they don't. They are so tooled that they don't really have incidental firepower to take out the gaunts.

Hmm. That combined with all the other aforementioned uses make really cheap gaunts a steal. Mainly though, the really cheap part helps.

I have to playtest it a few more times but so far even against assault heavy armies, the gaunts/tyrant guard/raveners have been better than stealers. The stealers do OK, but seem to be just too pricy. They are worth killing at 120-160 pts a squad, whereas gaunts and raveners are not really (raveners are worth killing, just tough to kill due to their extreme assault range - if you get close enough to start shooting raveners you're in the prime firing range of the rest of the army).

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 09/26/2006 9:46 PM
Yeah, but surely they have some incidental fire somewhere.

Well actually, I guess they don't. They are so tooled that they don't really have incidental firepower to take out the gaunts.

Hmm. That combined with all the other aforementioned uses make really cheap gaunts a steal. Mainly though, the really cheap part helps.

Of course if we're talking about the IW their Obliterators can choose HB's and kill 15 Spinegaunts in one volley. Those 15 Spinegaunts just happen to be worth a lot less than the 5.5 wounds on a Tyrant or a Carnifex, which they would've caused had those Gaunts not been a threat. Same thing applies to TL Las/HB sponson Preds - They can kill a lot of Gaunts but the Nid player isn't losing as much points as he is when the Preds are shooting at TMCs, so each time the Gaunts start dying the big bugs start smiling.

And they can't choose not to target the gaunts without losing the firepower of the oblits anyways when they get charged.

I see now. Nifty.

I think the SOB can be quite effective on a Choir army since they have natural resistence to the LD checks with shield of faith and also the Book of St. Lucius. Plus the mobile firepower that the exorcists bring is plenty to take down all those zoeys. Devine Guidance works great against Nidzilla lists since you need those 6's anyways to hurt the bigger bugs. The best defense against Nidzilla is deployment and target selection. You really have to be paying attention to what is the more immediate threat every turn otherwise you are wasting shots.

Capt K

This sounds pretty bad for anyone who doesn't play Godzilla nids, is it actually possible to beat them ? Especially as a player of non-MEq /Eldar armies...

What does a typical 1500 Godzilla list look like ?

Winged tyrant
walking VC tyrant with guard

spinegaunts/stealers

3 devilfexs (2*tl devourers, senses)
3 ravaners (sometimes up to 6)
2 sniperfexs (vc/bs,senses)
3 zoans

This is for 1500pts but even at 1750 its much the same, add a guard, upgrade the fexs abit, take a few more ravs and the rest in gaunts/stealers.

Personally I am changing my winged tyrant into a 2nd walking guard tyrant with VC/dev and relying on stealers and ravs for the CC punch. Just to try something new for a change.

They aren't Iron Warriors bad, but they are pretty tough.

Exorcists can't shoot while shaken. Not a significant threat.

My thinking is mobile sisters will reach the dakkafexes and kill a couple of them, but killing 3 dakkafexes is 339 pts (woot). But they're not fast enough to get rapid fire bolters past the dakkafexes. If they get close enough to the dakkafexes to unload on the gunfexes/walking tyrant/flyrant, they will be owned by the dakkafexes. The exorcists will simply not win a gunfight with a walking tyrant and 2 fexes.

I fear playing a shootie army on a sparse table, that's about it really.

Longshot: the Exorcists out range the nids longest ranged gun, so tell me how the Exorcists are shaken? I have no fear against a nidzilla list with my SOB. The way sisters with that battle is being smart with target selections.

Capt K

Do you really think you are going to stay 42" away from a Carnifex? Clue in buddy. We play on tables that are 48" by 60" and have terrain on them.

It's not 60" (unless you're playing on a 4'x5'); it's 72"...

I just tried my list out against a zilla nids army. I did well, killed the dakka fex on first turn, flyrant on second turn, killed the gun fex in close combat with my master, and surprisingly killed the brood lord in CC.

I guess the important strat is to FOCUS FIRE. There was cover and stuff like that, and my opponent deployed in it, really hurt my missile launcher squads and made my lascannons less effective, however my bolter fire made up for the losses, surprisingly.

Again, focusing fire, having a counter assault force for the less powerful (or slower) enemies is great. I used assaulters to keep my guys perfectly fine from the fleeting gaunts and steelers. HB squad dealt with the genestealers. Also my guys were in plenty of cover, he wasn't able to pin anything because of the master, and the lion helm (4+ invulnerable in a 3" ring from shooting) was extra insurance against any zoanthropes.

The zoanthropes deep striked but had extremely bad luck falling into friendly units or walls. So...that was much easier.

I was actually able to break the synapse ring which was great against the gaunts when they tried to assault and had to make bad moral checks.

All in all it was a fun game and required serious fire control.

All you've really established, Sutekh, is that I can't do basic arithmetic in my head reliably. Point's the same

And that's all I was gunning for...

ATI, it doesn't sound like you played against a godzilla list. You should have had to kill 3 dakka fexes and 2 gunfexs minimum. Plus there's no broodlord in a true zilla list (and its no surprise you killed him in close combat, he's not all that great). Sounds like you faced 12 or 13 T6 wounds. Godzilla armies have 30+ T6 wounds.

I like those deepstriking zoanthroapes...those are cool....

Few armies are that good that they win when played bad, that said any army can be beat.
Still you might want to check those deepstriking zoans at the door.

There were a bunch, but I didn't now how to classify them. There were 4 fexes, two tyrants, some warriors (big deal) Had to deal with 20+ T6 wounds. The broodlord I played was nasty in CC, initiative 7 strength 6 no save rending hits, thats death for a SM squad (I'm not entirely sure thsi was legal but oh well). A real advantage was him losing his Lictors to DS mishaps. That really made my day.  EDIT: Also this player was young, and my general unfamiliarity with the nids army lent to many blunders on classifications and rules regarding his list so....

If I didn't hit a real zilla list then oh well, maybe godzuki zilla nids.

@longshot: Easily. I hid them until ready to shoot. No need to expose them until that time. The tables I play on have plenty of terrain. If there is more it benefits me greatly since I can manuever my transports without getting picked off. Have you seen a good SOB list go against a NidZilla list? Just curious.

Capt K

Most likely Godzuki Zilla Nids.

Two Tyrants and a BroodLord equals three HQ choices, so you definitely didn't see that.

Zoanthropes don't deep strike, so that's another non-Zilla Nid item.  You are probably referring to Lictors.

You have a ton of missile launchers but only 6 AP 2 weapons that hit past 12", warp field on a Flyrant and more than 25% terrain will ruin your day against a veteran Zilla Player.

I've noticed that a lot of players with really shooty lists never play cleanse.  I'd like to see what happens when they get pushed back in their deployment zones by their opponent putting his first choice as close to the center as possible.  That leaves only 24" separating you , and your back is already against the board edge.  Ravenors, Genestealers and Flyrants are in charge on turn 2 then, your opponent has units in both adjacent table corners, and you have only two mobile units to either counter his assaults or try to contest the corners.  Also, on turn 2 the dakkafexes will open up with a total of 24 BS 3 Strength 6 shots, twin-linked and re-roll wounds.  That is basically 18 wounds,  and 6 failed power armor saves.

Not everyone plays the "let's stand in a line and shoot" version of 40K (read Seek and Destroy).  There are other missions to play, and you can't always deploy much farther than 24" away.  Godzilla Lists are amazing in cleanse, where claiming corners and pushing your enemies deployment back 24" are key.

You deploy 18" away in Cleanse if memory serves. Makes Scouting genestealers nasty

Maybe by "Zoanthropes" he meant Raveners? Either they were Lictors or DSing Ravs...the first is a bad unit, the second is a bad use of a good unit. Regardless, it doesn't sound like a particularly well-tuned Godzilla list.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a "Minilla" (I'm a purist...Godzilla does NOT have a flying sidekick, nor does he have laser beam eyes) list as long as you have 100 Gaunts to back up the MCs...

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 10/02/2006 10:15 AM
@longshot: Easily. I hid them until ready to shoot. No need to expose them until that time. The tables I play on have plenty of terrain. If there is more it benefits me greatly since I can manuever my transports without getting picked off. Have you seen a good SOB list go against a NidZilla list? Just curious.

Capt K

It's easy, he hides the bugs until he is ready to shoot.
Really, if that is your stunning tactical revelation, the devestating new theory of hide behind cover before you are ready to shoot, you may need to play more people.

Lots of people do that.  In fact, every good player uses the terrain to his advantage.  And even more importantly, every good player has ways around that same strategy.

THA Wrote: It's easy, he hides the bugs until he is ready to shoot.
Really, if that is your stunning tactical revelation, the devestating new theory of hide behind cover before you are ready to shoot, you may need to play more people.

Lots of people do that. In fact, every good player uses the terrain to his advantage. And even more importantly, every good player has ways around that same strategy.


Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Of COURSE he's going to hide his big bugs, cause if he doesn't, they die. Of COURSE good players use terrrain to their advantage, but you guys are carrying on like the TMC list is unstoppable-so-don't-even-bother-to-try-and-beat-it list. The bottomline is that a TMC choir list isn't really going to affect a SOB army like you think it is unless you have some sort of mysterious inside info I am not aware of.The TMC isn't going to win that game handily (if at all). In most cases I'd bet on the SOB player to win that matchup. With Faith Points every gun they have can mow through their big bugs (and small bugs). The TMC's toughness and armor save won't help much. Again. The key to beating TMC is smart target selection. Do that right, and the TMC player will have to be bringing their A game. Do that wrong, and the TMC list will dominate, dominate, dominate. That is the primary advantage with TMCs. Most don't know how to handle playing against them.

Capt K

Actually I would like to point out that I don't use terrain to my advantage. It makes victory that much more sweet. *end sarcasm*

terrain matters, but if the game is simply about who is and isn't in cover then we can stop playing after we deploy our troops and setup terrain. Just kidding. I can understand Capt's feelings, to me its the same, use smart target selection, problem should be solved.

Of course the problem is solved. Because the nids could never do anything like selecting smart targets themselves.

Why do you guys keep promoting basic tactics like they are the be all and end all of any list? The rest of us are debating this with both players using terrain and choosing good targets in mind.

The only variable is availability of good targets and the fact that target priority checks are going to fail vastly more often against the choir.

Also, the only ones carrying on like it is unbeatable are the ones raving at you in your imaginations. The rest of us are saying that they are a very tough, top tier list. Not King of the Hill Seer Council/Iron Warriors lists, but tougher than quite a few lists could handle.

Sisters have alot of advantages against big bugs. Just as tough against most of their fire as Marines, but for less point. Every bolter can hurt you. Exorcists can put the hurt on MCs. The invincible Cannoness can tie up the Winged Tyrant indefinitely
Zillas have some advantages too. Particularly on the close combat end. Sisters don't have a solution for single Ravener squads, guant tie up units, or stealers that get in close.

I may have to give it to you though, Sisters do have some decided advantages against big bugs. Still, those are specific aspects of the sisters list that cause that, so the original point still stands.

I would be willing to bet any sisters player I played against hard money that all I have to do is walk forward in cover and kill you as the opportunity presents, and/or take objectives

My strategy would be the brilliant 'walk right at you and laugh at your pitiful attempts to kill me' offense.

Your optimal range with sisters is 12" and your movement is 12". That means any turn you want to engage me with your mounted sisters you must start within 24". My range is 18" on dakkafexes, more on the rest of my army.

Then you have to factor in that my firepower is better than yours by drastic amounts from >24". From 42" I am throwing 5 S8 shots and 4 S10 shots from bugs that don't get shaken/stunned.

You do not want to shoot it out with bugs when the entirety of your >24" firepower consists of non-possessed tanks. You'll lose to the two gunfexes every time. I had a shootout with a three railhead list, and won it easily in 3 turns with just the gunfexes and tyrant. Don't think your exorcists are going to do any better.

Once you move the three exorcists out to shoot they will not even kill one gunfex in a turn.

You will have 10.5 shots on average, which means 7 hits, which means 5.833 wounds on T6 fexes (mine are T7), 3.8 wounds in 5+ cover.

So the gunfexes and Tyrant shoot back and your SUPER SECRET plan of 'wait until I can fire first' falls apart. Because you don't have enough guns to really kill anything when you come out. You can't even take a single gun away from me!

If your mechanized horde deploys, they instantly die. Do the math on what a faith pointed squad of sisters does to a carnifex. You won't be that impressed

I guess you should ask Vsurma since he's played the most games of the big bug guys I have seen. But so far anything that isn't long ranged guns or 2+ saves has been a laugh fest for me.

I'll be very frank, the only strategy everyone agrees on is using basic firing priority and focus fire tactics. Everyone on this thread has at some level agreed that yes, this is the way to fight Choir and zilla nids. If thats true then don't get upset with people relying on that as a tactic. If you think there is a better tactic then please, give us illucidation. I didn't come to the tactics thread because I knew how to fight the zilla nids or choir nids, i came to figure out how to hone my game against a list that I admitedly have ZERO clue about.

EDIT Additionally, against Vsurma's argument that mobility is key in 4th ed. I'm willing to grant mobility is great, but then again you can ask any Iron Warriors player what value they have on mobility and you'll get a flat 0 as a response. Mobility is great in 4th ed. absolutely true, however, that doesn't mean that armies that sacrifice mobility for more guns are at an extreme loss, even in missions that require movement. Like I said, if that were true there would be less IW players.  The theory being that if you have enough guns to prevent your opponents movement, then the game falls to simple who can and can't get more VPs off of the other.  Although in a 1500 point game, there are less tactical options. I generally play 2k points, where you can easily fit in 1400 points for heavy weaons and 600 points for fast attack keeping both mobility and shooting powers at a high value.

Your frustration with our responses Happy Anarchist makes plenty of sense, its the EXACT same frustration I feel when looking at this debate. On one end, all we have agreed on is that focus fire and basic tactics and lots of heavy guns will help down a zilla nids list. However, NO ONE has, as of yet, came up with a definitive strategy beyond the basics. That is frustrating to me, because I know there is more to it, there has to be a finesse to the army, or else why would zilla nids be doing so well? Again, you're frustrated about the tactics we espouse as basic, yet it works (I guess the saying, "hell if it works then it works." , while we are equally frustrated that this tactics thread has yet to come up with something beyond a basic response to the choir and zilla nids lists.

So, I have to say that I am heartfuly sorry for sounding like I am bull headed, but honestly I just want to work to find a better answer. Unfortunately my limited knowledge on the subject is more harmful than useful so I differ to others understanding of the situation and so far that understanding has only gotten to basic tactics.

The problem is, focus fire isn't the answer to nidzilla armies. It's the answer to any army. No matter what you are playing against, proper target selection is key.
One major problem with it against Choir nids is that your target selecting is doubly hampered. For one, you are making target priority checks with low Ld scores. On the other hand, when MCs get injured, but not killed, they can be moved behind other MCs who can then take the fire. This means it can take twice as long to remove guns from the list.

Also, if the Iron Warriors you are playing rate mobility a 0, you aren't playing the tourney winners. They always include mobile firepower. Oblits all move and shoot, albiet slowly. Usually Preds/Defilers are included. The simple reason? Immobile firepower only gets shots with your opponents consent. They have to move into your firelanes. You can make them want to do that, but if they decide not to, you won't get a shot off.
Basically, you are letting the opponent engage you on their terms.

I think the main thing about zilla lists is the same main problem with gaunt swarms. They are difficult to beat with take all comers lists. You either don't have enough high strenght, high AP weapons, or you don't have enough high ROF weapons.

Generally, a very mobile army might have a decent chance by trying to get around the nid swarm and target individual bugs at long range, basically playing a VP denial game.
As for a stand and shoot army? That is much trickier. They have to rely on having more high strength high AP firepower. Either through the IWs or AssCan lists trick of having anti-horde & anti tank all in one package, or by intentionally weakening yourself against infantry lists.

Happy Anarchist Wrote: The problem is, focus fire isn't the answer to nidzilla armies. It's the answer to any army. No matter what you are playing against, proper target selection is key.
One major problem with it against Choir nids is that your target selecting is doubly hampered. For one, you are making target priority checks with low Ld scores. On the other hand, when MCs get injured, but not killed, they can be moved behind other MCs who can then take the fire. This means it can take twice as long to remove guns from the list.


Capt K writes:
See this is what I'm getting at. SOB won't suffer from the Choir as much as other armies since they:
A: Have a built in resistance to psychic powers
B: The Book of St. Lucius will help against morale checks.

Secondly, beating a Nidzilla list isn't always about killing the models outright. Sometimes it is more preferable to take the TMC's to a point where they aren't a scoring unit and win through objectives. YMMV, but that's what my play experience has shown me.


Longshot Wrote: I would be willing to bet any sisters player I played against hard money that all I have to do is walk forward in cover and kill you as the opportunity presents, and/or take objectives My strategy would be the brilliant 'walk right at you and laugh at your pitiful attempts to kill me' offense. Your optimal range with sisters is 12" and your movement is 12". That means any turn you want to engage me with your mounted sisters you must start within 24". My range is 18" on dakkafexes, more on the rest of my army. Then you have to factor in that my firepower is better than yours by drastic amounts from >24". From 42" I am throwing 5 S8 shots and 4 S10 shots from bugs that don't get shaken/stunned. You do not want to shoot it out with bugs when the entirety of your >24" firepower consists of non-possessed tanks. You'll lose to the two gunfexes every time. I had a shootout with a three railhead list, and won it easily in 3 turns with just the gunfexes and tyrant. Don't think your exorcists are going to do any better.

Capt K writes:
This is where respectfully, I disagree.... and I'd take that bet. Again, sometimes the mission is simply to bring your TMC's below scoring. With the exception of a few that have regen, this isn't an impossible task. While it is true that I must start at a certain point away, the approach is dictated on my terms since my entire army is mounted. Since I haven't run the math on 10 sisters in a rhino dumping and shooting a dakkafex I have no hard data other than experience. My 10 sisters loadout is: 7 with bolters, 1 meltagun, 1 HF, the vet sister superior has a plasma pistol and eviserator. So if you want to figure it out, be my guest. Usually that is suffient firepower to kill one. Sometimes a combined arms approach with seraphim helps as well. The Exorcists are usually reserved for tyrant and gunfex duty and the retributors have genestealer/ spinegaunt detail. So far my army hasn't had a problem against a Choir Nidzilla list. However, if that list swapped out the zoeys for another TMC. It would be a tougher game for sure. At the end of the day, it mainly comes down to what experiences each has had in their games against Choir TMC. I haven't had a problem with them with my SOB.

Capt K

Guess that makes sense then. I mean, it would be no problem for me to completely forego my generalist list and simply make a very high powered anti-zilla nids list with chapter banner to help re roll failed leadership checks and a master.

You are right, my classification for mobility was too narrow, I meant standard movement of 6" as not being an ideal for mobility. But, I have to grant that the IW do have mobile units, simply they are slow moving as opposed to a stand still army.

Few have.

K, you are a nut buddy.

plasma pistol, melta, HF, 7 sisters -> less than 2 wounds after cover saves.

Not even enough to get it below scoring. Try again. It would take two squads to even reliably get one below scoring.

Longshot:

I guess you missed the part where I usually will use combined arms if the situation requires it...additionally for only two wounds you must really be good with making a lot of cover saves then. Not a nut, just calling it like I see it from playing experience. Also remember that any wound inflicted by a HF with divine guidance removes your precious cover save, so in some cases you aren't always guaranteed one.

Capt K

I will run the math for CaptK.

Versus Toughness 7:

Plasma Pistol = 1 shot, .36 (60%) Hit, .18 (50%) Wound

Melta Gun = 1 Shot, .36 (60%) Hit, 0.216 (60%) Wound

Heavy Flamer = 1 Autohit, .16 (16%) Wound, AP1 from Divine Guidance

7 Rapid Fire Bolters = 14 Shots, 8.4 (60%) Hit, 1.34 (16%) Wounds, AP1 from Divine Guidance

The grand total is 1.896 Wounds, 1.736 you can get a cover save from. 30% chance to save = 1.216 Wounds that a SOB squad can put on a Carnifex in cover.


Here is another fun calculation.

2 Exorcists shoot at a Carnifex:

An avverage of 8 Shots between the two. 4.8 Hits, 2.88 Wounds. In cover a Carni will only save .86 of said wounds, meaning that it will take 2.02 wounds in cover.


Dakkafex calculations:

Versus a SOB squad...

8 Shots, 4 Hits (50%) plus 2 (twin-linked) equals 6 hits, 4.98 Wounds (83%) plus .84 (re-roll) equals 5.82 wounds. Of those wounds 40% will fail which equals 2.38 casualties.



So in a straight shoot out between your typical Dakka Fex and an SOB squad. I would think that the SOB squad comes out on top. Neither of the shooting reduces the units below scoring, but in a points kill ratio the SOB squad had over 28 points of death versus the Fex having 26 points of return fire.

The thing that makes puts the Sister on top though is that a Sister squad is much better in CC than the Carnifex is and would probably finish it of in a few rounds of combat.

However all these calculations are "vacuum hammer" and doesn't take into account the SOB squad moving into position and the relative terrain. But I would wager that and half decent SOB player has learned to postion his transpots properly to set up favorable situations like the above. Though the tyranid player has some speed in Revengers, Geenstealers, Hormagaunts, etc. Sisters don't really fear those models because a typical Sisters list has so many counters to those models, it's sick. So really the only advantage that a Nidzilla list have is its increadibly tough Carnifexes. In my calculations, I was pitting a troop choice versus an elite choice, but the typical SOB lists I see have ground pounding Sisters,Celetians with multiple Evisorators and a Priest, Serephim with Faith and Hit and Run, Cannoness with Evisorator or Blessed Weapon and a free faith. Exorcists, Retributors, and Immolators add to the fun.

So essentially what I am argueing, is that against a good SOB list and a good SOB player, Nidzilla lists won't get an easy win. In fact there is a decent possibility that an SOB list will beat a Nidzilla list. But there is no way Longshot nor CaptK can prove that without going to the tables. But it is a stupid arguement that a Nidzilla list will always beat a SOB list.

Sister squads are better in HTH than a 100 point carnifex. Yes. If you burn a faith point. Otherwise you're not so hot, since you hit on 4s and wound on 4s with a 2 attack eviscerator and hit on 4s and wound on 6s with your normal sisters.

Unfortunately they're not so great against a flying Tyrant and raveners, genestealers, and gaunts.

If you dump out 4 mechanized squads of sisters in front of me, you'll kill one dakkafex and wound another if you get lucky, and then get countercharged by my entire army. Flyrant, 6 raveners, some genestealers and a bunch of gaunts, and whatever carnifexes are within 12", and the Tyrant guard squad and so on and so forth. Even with faith points invulnerable thingies you're not going to outlast in that.

No list will always beat any list in 40k barring slowed crap. But the odds here are heavily in Zilla's favor, mostly because sisters are not a top tier army and their optimal range is "too close" to Tyranids. You get one round of shooting and then you get assaulted - and somehow you guys seem to think that sisters are better than nids in assault. Unfortunately, eviscerators are S6 and two-handed, and sisters are WS3 (or 4 for some) S3 with one attack.

Another use of Divine Guidance, also they can boast thier STR is they want to. Considering most pure sisters armies have an upwards of 10+ faith points, it's worth burning 2 to kill a Carnie.



I would respectfully disagree there. Sisters have enough small arms fire and flamers that can take down those numbers. The Flyrant would be a little more difficult for them but not game breaking.



Problem with that arguement is that a half-decent SOB player wouldn't put themselves in that position. He will try to isolate and take down your quicker models first, then move on to your Carnies that he has been nickle and dimeing with his Exorcists. Not all of their weapons are short ranged either, you are still going to have to close the distance through enemy firepower. Then try and assault transports with whatever you have left if they didn't already get the drop on you.



Nobody argued that Sisters are better in CC than the Tyranids just the Carnifexes. If you think that Sisters are only getting one turn of shooting you haven't played against a good SOB player. SOB might not be one of the "optimixed lists" but they are pretty competitve and IMHO a top tier army, if you got the army dynamics down. If a player can master when and how to use faith, that army can seriously put a hurting on a lot of things. I see CaptK consistanly beat Mech. Tau, Lysander Wings, Drop Pod heavy Space Marines, and Chaos.

My guess Longshot is that you have never really faced a competent SOB player. I am sure other experienced SOB players on this board can attest to the damage potential that SOB can inflict on a Nidzilla list...especially in assault against the slower bugs (which is you meat and potatoes in that list). If need be, vs. a carnifex, I could shoot just the HF, the Meltagun and the Plasma pistol, then charge into combat. Once there, I have several options to eliminate a carnifex. Operating under the assumption that I placed a wound on the carnifex in the shooting phase that leaves me with the means to inflict 3 more...which is easily possible in a close combat. Divine Guidance and Hand of theEmperor should be able to knock the carnifex down. With basic sisters, I need 6's to wound anyways so by using divine guidance, it makes those wounds count for something. If I choose to boost their strength they now need 5's and 6's with normal sisters (assuming the fex is only T6) and the eviserator will be getting 3 attacks at Str8. So at the end of that combat that should be enough to kill it. Against a flying tyrant I would be using spirit of the martyr to reduce the number of casualties i'd be taking while letting the eviserator slowly grind the tyrant down. However, I would not try to place a unit like that in the way of one. That is what some of the other units would be relegated to. If at all possible a flying tyrant would be dealt with in the shooting phase.

Like Mahu said it is a stupid argument to say that a Nidzilla list will always own an SOB list.

Capt K

Spending 3 faith points to kill a 113 point carnifex. Genius.

I think what I said was most Nidzilla lists will almost always own any SOB list. If I didn't, let me amend my statement to say that. Because I don't think I said always anywhere.

What's stupid is thinking you have enough faith points to use two on every squad for every turn of the game, killing 113 point carnifexes. If you kill all three dakkafexes you've made 336 points, and that will take your entire army's faith points probably twice over.

It's also absolutely nuts to think you'll even get to finesse around with your rhinos. Somehow we're operating under the mistaken assumption that I won't shoot your rhinos before you get to me. Unfortunately your rhinos have to be within 24" to get to engage, and any time a rhino gets within 24" it dies the next turn.

Beating the armies you mentioned, Mahu, has absolutely nothing in common with Nidzilla. None of those armies are even remotely close in playstyle. Killing T4 3+ save and T4 2+ save guys is much different than killing T6 guys.

You guys keep acting like the sisters can pick and choose their targets, also. That's ridiculous. Dakkafexes do 2 glancing hits on rhinos each.

If you're in a rhino you have to kill the dakkafexes and expend all your resources to prevent them from mugging you. You also cannot just run around killing the little bugs at your leisure because they are protected by the big bugs.

If you try to drive your rhino around a dakkafex you are going to get exploded.

I may not have played a good sisters army, but I have played my bug list against armies with lots of vehicles. Any army that consists mainly of rhinos and predators is going to have a crazy hard time against Godzilla. They are simply too easy to kill and leave your girls stranded.

Walking sisters would be a much tougher fight because they have to spend fewer faith points to protect themselves from the Flyrant, but even then I think Zilla's range+mobility (Move and shoot 18" vs. move and shoot 12") would win the game.

Most good Sister players will spend their Faith by the third turn and start using Marterdom to increase their faith potential. And again (and I will speak as if I was playing Sister against you for the remander of this post), I wouldn't devote all my forces to take out only 336 points. I would engage your fast, squsier bugs first. A Sister squad through faith can beat a Geenstealer squad in a protracted conflict because they can make their save invulnerable and negate your rending, so whatever survives their fire won't be hitting them at full efficency. As far as your Carnies are concerned they don't have a very good kill potential against Sister squads anyway so again they till won't be my first priority. If I have half my army left, and all you have is your Carnie's, you are playing on my terms now.



It's actually 26" with the 2" disembark, but I understand you point. However, I will say this again, your Carnie's are not my first target, anything fast is. I can handle the Carnifex's if they have no support.

My arguement was against your arguement that Sister was not a "top tier" army. Not specifically against the Nids.



And each of those hits only have a 33% change of stopping the rhino, and that is assuming that you can even see the rhino in the first place.



Once I get into position, I don't need the Rhinos anyway, and the shooting from your big bugs doesn't worry my infantry sqauds. Besides not all of my SOB squads will be mounted any way, so the dependance on the Rhino's are not as critical as you may think.



I would never try to do that, so this is a non arguement. If anything, I would try and jump a Carnifex with Serephim, to, at the very least, silience their shooting.



We are not talking about mounted Marines, we are talking about Sister,s. Coming from a person you tried to make mounted marines work for a year, there is simply no comparison. You are right though, Rhino's would have a hard time against your shooting, but you keep opporating under the assumption that I would expose my rhinos a turn before I would commit them. The rhinos only need a turn for driving at the enemy for them to do their job, after that I don't care what you do to them.



You would probably see a combination of the two in a good Sister list, because you wase to many points if you put to many transports on the field.

But I said it before and I will say it again. Your arguement that the Nidzilla's will almost always win is a faulty one and just plain stupid. You are comparing an army with a straight forward playstyle and advantages versus a finesse army with greater flexibility. Of coarse the easier army will be favored in arguements because of their more obvious streangths, but their are people who make very competitve, and highly effective armies out of the Sisters list because they understand how the army works and understnad how to use their faith effectively. I just think you are underestimating the flexibilty this list has in adapting to situations it might fight itself in. Its a stupid arguement anyways, because they only way to settle it is at the tables.

OK you win. Sisters are a top tier army and I should fear them.

Maybe if you strap teleporters on them so they can easily skip by carnifexes who are protecting the fast bugs.

Yeah, I am not so sure that you are playing the most cutthroat tacticians there Mahu.

The "fast bugs" don't run out ahead to get gunned down. The list moves forward as a whole, you hope you make target priority checks enough to actually take down some of the big guys.

If your Seraphim Charge the carnies, then the stealers/raveners/gaunts/tyrant+guard jump the seraphim and lay them down in a mass of high initiative attacks, inv faith used or not.

The fast bugs don't break cover until they are in charge range.

As for the Rhinos, to be honest, I fully expect you to be able to make the first shots out of them, given at least halfway decent terrain. You should be able to make your strikes with your mounted sisters squads. But we already figured out how much damage they do, with faith. Not enough.

As for walking sisters, I'm not sure that you are correct in saying that the most competetive lists take them. You are the first I have heard suggesting them outside of COD. Even that is debatable.

As long as the other sisters are dealt with (either through being in close combat, in which case the walking sisters can't shoot anyways, or by forcing them to retreat, another possibility) then the walking sisters can be avoided most of the game just by walking backwards.

I think you've nailed it, Happy. The florida guys haven't seen the Zilla bugs played as well as they are assuming Captain K can play his sisters, and so they assume it's a blunt force list with no finessable units. 40 pt squads of fearless gaunts be damned!

Aye. I agree with Longshot.

Posted By Longshot on 10/06/2006 8:27 PM
I think you've nailed it, Happy. The florida guys haven't seen the Zilla bugs played as well as they are assuming Captain K can play his sisters, and so they assume it's a blunt force list with no finessable units. 40 pt squads of fearless gaunts be damned!

You could be correct in saying that the "florida boys" don't have that much experience playing a good tactical guinius with Nidzilla lists. So now you have reduced the arguement to "I haven't played a good sisters player and you haven't played a good Nidzilla player", which only comes back to my original point, arguements like this are stupid because the tables are the only thing that can solve it.

CaptK does have a pretty good idea how the list plays though because he is working on one for the upcoming Adepticon. Also this Saturday, he faced a Tyranid player (balanced list with only two Carnies) and a Sister squad took out a Gunfex in two turns. He used deployment and bait to seperated it to concentrate on it and through Faith he killed it. I am not saying he is the greatest player ever, because after that I tabled him with my Word Bearers (though I admit that the dice where on my side).

If anything the arguement was to not underestimate the SoB in a competitve enviroment.

Now i understand the arguement of, if a good player can win consistantly with a finesse army than he will be unbeatable with a beat stick army, but I don't buy it. If you are playing a finesse army and winning, you are still winning, period. If you are taking that finesse army and beating beatstick armies, than maybe their is something to people mastering armies that don't have any obvious tactics. Nobody is argueing that the Nidzilla list is not competitve. Why people would argue it as a "top tier" list over other competitive list is because it has very obvious streagths and a pretty straight forward stratigy. SoB doesn't have that, but it has been proven consistantly, at least around here and other places, that it hold its own. Now if you want to talk about an uncompetitve codex, let's look at Deamonhunters. Otherwise, at least we can admit that this arguement has no provable end that doesn't involve a plane ticket and more money than anybody wants to spend to solve it.

I've got 5 bucks on Capt K if there is any money wagered.

Least here in Finland many tournaments this year have had up to 3 tyranid armies on the top 2 tables.... and its not even really rare anymore.

I've never seen a sisters army win anything except a weigh-in. Due to being mostly metal.

I for one would never really argue that sisters aren't competitive.

Just not really top tier.

I'm saying they're not competitive with top tier armies, so I guess I'm saying they're not top tier.

Competitive in bush league tournaments and against your random joes, sure. But so are Thousand Sons.

Capt K wrote:
This thread is still going on?

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
Yeah, I am not so sure that you are playing the most cutthroat tacticians there Mahu.

Capt K wrote:
I'd disagree with that since there are plenty of cutthroat tacticians in the area.


The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
The "fast bugs" don't run out ahead to get gunned down. The list moves forward as a whole, you hope you make target priority checks enough to actually take down some of the big guys.

Capt K Wrote:

Well DUH! A very straight forward strategy for the bugs. Like Mahu said it doesn't take rocket science to figure out the Nidzilla game plan. A very straightforward way to play. However the things that are shooting your big bugs really don't have to worry about priority checks because either: A: it's a vehicle shooting them (exorcist), B: a unit within one of 2 canonesses with the book of Ld 10, C: a unit of retributors with the book. Either way, whatever is closest is usually going to take priority most likely anyways...unless a flying tyrant is on the prowl of course. In opening turns very little of my force would be committed since your armie moves so slow. Depending on the mission it is usually in my best interest to wait with the bulk of my force or jockey into a great position.

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
If your Seraphim Charge the carnies, then the stealers/raveners/gaunts/tyrant+guard jump the seraphim and lay them down in a mass of high initiative attacks, inv faith used or not.

Capt K wrote:
Since Mahu isn't a SOB player we can give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I would never use the seraphim to that capacity. The seraphim are there for crowd control and counter assault, not assaulting Carnifexes. With 2 flame templates most of your gaunts get squished. In the last game I played against a nid player, I kept the seraphim in the back lines until turn 5. Once the bulk of his forces were condensed between to forests the template hosing the recieved from a Callidus and Seraphim pretty much killed them all dead save for two, which broke since I removed the synapse presence in the area (a group of Zoeys). Then the callidus kept the stealers busy for two turns by jumping back.

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
The fast bugs don't break cover until they are in charge range.

Capt K wrote:
Indeed. But sometimes your missions and possibly terrain aren't going to afford you that luxury all the time.

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
As for the Rhinos, to be honest, I fully expect you to be able to make the first shots out of them, given at least halfway decent terrain. You should be able to make your strikes with your mounted sisters squads. But we already figured out how much damage they do, with faith. Not enough.

Capt K wrote:
You might be right about the first strikes, but the damage that they can do is quite high. I proved that several times last weekend. So to say "it isn't enough" is simply not true. My 8 man celestian squad took out a dakkafex with ease. Granted, the player took the bait when I jumped them out in front of his left flank. After weathering the shooting from the zoey and the dakkafex, they still had the numbers left to take it down between their shooting phase and assault phase. I shot with a HF, plasma pistol, and Meltagun. Did one wound in the shooting phase and then charged it. Divine guidanced my unit and did two more wounds. Then at initiative step 1 the carni swings and killed one. In retort, the eviserator swings and kills it. In the end, I score VP's for killing a dakkafex, silence a large amount of shooting, and the opponent scored none since my unit was still scoring (and remained that way for the rest of the game). Unless tooled to fight in CC, carnifexes suck balls in close combat. 2 attacks at initiative 1 does not scare me. The loadout and size of my squads is plenty of power to drag one of those down.

Capt K

Longshot wrote: I've never seen a sisters army win anything except a weigh-in. Due to being mostly metal.

Then I guess you really haven't been slapped around by a good SOB list then.

Capt K

Longshot Wrote: I'm saying they're not competitive with top tier armies, so I guess I'm saying they're not top tier.

Competitive in bush league tournaments and against your random joes, sure. But so are Thousand Sons.

Capt K wrote:
I never claimed they were a top tier list (to be top tier a vast majority have to be playing it anyways...and lets face it SOB isn't a popular mainstream army to begin with.). What I am claiming is that SOB have little to fear from Choir Nidzilla.

As for competitive "bush league" tournaments, I don't classify Adepticon as bush league. Last year there were several players that placed rather high. This year I plan on bringing them to Adepticon to see if I can beat the highest placing SOB army from the year before. Just for sh*ts and giggles.

Capt K

If you're claiming that SOB have little to fear from nidzilla, you're either an idiot or you're exaggerating too much.

Everyone, myself included, looks at their list and then Nidzilla and says "man, that would be an easy win!"

But it just isn't like that. My drop pods don't walk through nidzilla even though it's an easier fight for me than it is for most. The nid zilla army is like nothing you've ever faced. If you haven't played an army with 5 carnifexes and 2 tyrants, you simply have no idea.

My buddy's Lysanderwing thought I would be an easy fight too, and the only reason I did not win completely was because he rolled 30% rending and I forgot that Zoanthropes don't score. Lysander is about the most stacked army against Nids other than Iron Warriors.

Well then, I don't think this thread should be here anymore, its just an e-peen contest at this point. One side is all about "Zilla is gonna rock your face." the other side is unwilling to accept that with whatever army list they try and trot out onto the forum. The only way to solve this is have an actual round, at which point most likely someone will say "Well you see here sonny, they didn't play with a top tier list so X side doesn't matter." Either rate NO tactics have been developed from this thread making it useless.

Zilla's gonna rock your face!

Posted By ATI on 10/10/2006 5:04 PM
Well then, I don't think this thread should be here anymore, its just an e-peen contest at this point. One side is all about "Zilla is gonna rock your face." the other side is unwilling to accept that with whatever army list they try and trot out onto the forum. The only way to solve this is have an actual round, at which point most likely someone will say "Well you see here sonny, they didn't play with a top tier list so X side doesn't matter." Either rate NO tactics have been developed from this thread making it useless.

I disagree on all points.  First off, I disagree unconditionally with anyone who says talking and conversation are pointless, at any point.

Facts are being stated, numbers are being thrown out, things are being theorized.  Of course, the anti-zilla argument does need to bring a few more numbers to the table, but I am sure they are up to the job.

Secondly, several tactics have been developed, several have been discredited and others are still being disputed.  If you think that no tactics have been developed in this thread, you quite simply have reading comprehension problems.
Furthermore, if you think discrediting tactics that may be tried is not useful, you will have very major problems learning.

I happen to have taken a great deal of information from this thread, and my ideas and tactics have evolved as a result. I'm sure I am not the only one.  Therefore this thread is useful to at least one person, verifiably, unless you believe that I don't exist.

Furthermore, the amount of condescension you have for people who disagree is pretty insulting.   Apparently we are all children who will do nothing but scream at eachother, despite both sides presenting a great deal of evidence, reacting to eachothers arguments and generally discussing things, even if no consensus has been reached.

Little fact about life.  People disagree about facts, and think different facts are accurate or inaccurate, same with opinions.  People place different weight on numbers vs experience, research and odds against eyewitness accounts and what they have personally done over what groups of other people on the internet may disagree with.  This does not mean that their discussions are meaningless, nor does that fact that they are not likely to agree on the issue mean that the discussion doesn't matter.

Oh noes, Happy, you mean discussion in a forum for discussion is OK? What will they think of next?

OH NOES!!!!ONE! I R WTFPwned

You can be upset with me, and my very frank understanding of this thread, but honestly this whole thread boiled down to "SOB can kill zilla nids" and "No Zilla nids will kill because they are top tier".  And a large discussion between Capt K trying to show SOB is viable, and you and longshot quite simply brush his army aside with stats and what not, insult the caliber of the opponents that Capt K might be playing against. (The comment regarding the "florida boys"   The fact is, we can't decide the issue of SOB vs. Zilla nids on the forum (Impossible to do so, which is why instead this forum has led to lots of average calculators which is great to show you the basic math, unfortunately averages and numbers can't take into account any number of variables that occur once you are actually playing an opponent on the field).  what this thread originally was about was what a choir list looks like.  That part of this forum was great.  In fact it was very fruitful, so I overgeneralized in my previous post.

This thread is about sharing ideas, not rehashing the same idea for 4 pages regarding an army list vs. zilla nids.  I just think this thread has outlasted its original usefulness with regard to choir nids lists.   Remember, whenever someone says "what aobut X tactic, weapon, strategy" it is you happy anarchist and longshot who simply say "Don't forget my guys are in cover, my guys will shoot back, my guess have X which will make things hard for you."  Thats great, itsabout as brilliant as any insight I have made on this thread which admitedly is very lame. 

Now, while I eloquently bow out from this debate, i bid this rather silly internet war begone. I hope that the true awakening of knowledge and tactica can be ever so slightly squeezed from the ephemoral corporations that constitute this thread.

You need to stop taking pompous pills dude. You don't have the skills to pull off the holier than thou crap.

We've been taking turns explaining our views. Then you pop in and act like you're better than us lowly peons who use a wargaming forum to discuss wargaming tactics. So, sod off.

Longshot Wrote: If you're claiming that SOB have little to fear from nidzilla, you're either an idiot or you're exaggerating too much.

Capt K wrote: (sarcasm)Yeah Longshot, I'm an idiot. I have nooo idea what I'm talking about (sarcasm). There IS no exaggeration. I have provided my point of view based on playing against a choir list several times. Now while it may be hard for you to digest this, it doesn't make it any less real. Like ATI and Mahu have stated this thread has degenerated into a " Choir Nidzilla list owns all" thread. Well I'm here to say that really isn't true. An extremely difficult list to beat, but not impossible. I raised the point that a well composed SOB army list wouldn't have the same disadvantages that other armies would face against it. You keep restating "no. you have no idea what I am talking about." and calling into question my opponents and my skills as a player. I guess the truest test is to take it to the tables.

Capt K

Longshot Wrote: Everyone, myself included, looks at their list and then Nidzilla and says "man, that would be an easy win!"

But it just isn't like that. My drop pods don't walk through nidzilla even though it's an easier fight for me than it is for most. The nid zilla army is like nothing you've ever faced. If you haven't played an army with 5 carnifexes and 2 tyrants, you simply have no idea.

Capt K Wrote:

You are correct. It ISN"T an easy win and NO where in my posts have I claimed it to be an easy win. All I have repeatedly said is that the strategies utilized by a Choir list isn't going to have the same impact on a SOB list that it normally would on others. Especially a well composed list.The Nidzilla army is something I have plenty of knowledge of. I am in the process of building one myself. So to say I have no idea just makes you look like a fool. However, on the flip side. How many really good SOB armies have you faced? Have you ever played as SOB? My guess is probably not.

Capt K

Posted By ATI on 10/10/2006 11:04 PM
OH NOES!!!!ONE! I R WTFPwned

You can be upset with me, and my very frank understanding of this thread, but honestly this whole thread boiled down to "SOB can kill zilla nids" and "No Zilla nids will kill because they are top tier".  And a large discussion between Capt K trying to show SOB is viable, and you and longshot quite simply brush his army aside with stats and what not, insult the caliber of the opponents that Capt K might be playing against. (The comment regarding the "florida boys"   The fact is, we can't decide the issue of SOB vs. Zilla nids on the forum (Impossible to do so, which is why instead this forum has led to lots of average calculators which is great to show you the basic math, unfortunately averages and numbers can't take into account any number of variables that occur once you are actually playing an opponent on the field).  what this thread originally was about was what a choir list looks like.  That part of this forum was great.  In fact it was very fruitful, so I overgeneralized in my previous post.

This thread is about sharing ideas, not rehashing the same idea for 4 pages regarding an army list vs. zilla nids.  I just think this thread has outlasted its original usefulness with regard to choir nids lists.   Remember, whenever someone says "what aobut X tactic, weapon, strategy" it is you happy anarchist and longshot who simply say "Don't forget my guys are in cover, my guys will shoot back, my guess have X which will make things hard for you."  Thats great, itsabout as brilliant as any insight I have made on this thread which admitedly is very lame. 

Now, while I eloquently bow out from this debate, i bid this rather silly internet war begone. I hope that the true awakening of knowledge and tactica can be ever so slightly squeezed from the ephemoral corporations that constitute this thread.

I am not upset with you or your frank understanding of this thread.  I am upset at your frank misunderstanding and misrepresentation of this thread.

Sidetracks in forum discussion can be just as useful as original topics.

The large discussion is what has been interesting to me, and I take heart in the fact that you consider us able to brush aside their arguments with stats (you know, facts and numbers, good things those)

There are things in 40k that can't be determined by numbers.   Primarily range, mobility and player skill.
In all cases, we gave the sisters players the benefit of the doubt with out numbers. 
They get first strike, they get to apply their whole force, whatever they want.

But really.  The only time a sisters squad gets to kill more points of Carnis than the Fexes take off of them is when they use Faith.  This is normal, Faith is what the sisters list is built on.  But it is not limitless.  Even when it is, the Carnis don't ever have to worry about running away, have close combat backup that is heavily nasty and will never be shaken, stunned, or destroyed in one turn.

Two exorcists firing (by Mahu's own calculations, though he seemed to take great pride in the numbers for some reasons) only do an average of 2 wounds to a Carni in cover.   3 If they don't have cover.  That is two of their guys that make one Carni not score, but affect firepower in no way.
Counter fire on the Exorcists will keep them from shooting the next turn, minimum.  They also have decent chances at blowing off weapons, immobilizing or destroying entirely.
No amount of player skill is going to make those numbers change.  There is a luck factor.  Sometimes the Exorcist might get lucky and eliminate a fex each.  Other times, they may not make a single wound before succumbing to enemy fire.
Sometimes the Sisters will bake a Carni and sometimes they will lose their VSS, which holds that all important book.  Suddenly they are checking Ld at -3 to 5.
(I don't believe the sisters get their save against always on psychic powers, or do they?)
In any case, the VAST majority of times that two Exorcists shoot at a Carni they will inflict between 1 and 4 wounds.  A majority of the time it will be 2-3. 

However, there were things I hadn't taken into account on sisters.  Foremost among them was how effectively they could tie you up in assault.   They won't do as much damage without rapidfiring bolters (which comprise most of the wounds inflicted in the above example) but they can still cause some harm and stop the firing.  
This means I will be avoiding assault more than I might otherwise.  Of course, you can't really assault out of a Rhino, and walking sisters will not be able to catch up to you, being in range of your countercharge before they are in range of your MC wall.
That leaves Seraphim pretty much.  Plus that annoyingly impossible to kill 2+ invulnerable leader.  Gah.

Anyhoo, I find the discussion quite enlightening, the fact that you can't seem to learn anything from it does not keep me from doing so at all.

One thing I would like to say though.  Can we leave out the implications that the other people are saying that Zilla > all or that Sisters have nothing to fear or that it will be an easy win.
In any case, with nearly any army, facing a competent opponent will never be a cakewalk.  The sisters list may not be a tourney dominator, but it is certainly very effective and effective against massive hordes and big bugs alike.  It will not be without troubles.

Nice post Happy,

One additional thing I'd like to add is that the SOB do indeed get a save against Psychic Scream since they have the ability to bounce any powers that include them in the area of effect. Since Psychic Scream has a area of effect up to 24" Any units in that area will be getting their save. If that fails, they always have the VSS with a book or hopefully a canoness nearby.

Capt K

You're all misinterpretting this thread, it was only a question as to what the Choir is...

Posted By Mephet'ran on 10/12/2006 8:45 AM
You're all misinterpretting this thread, it was only a question as to what the Choir is...

Nope.  The thread is drifting off topic.  You could argue that the original post was that, but that question was answered and other information and questions came forward.
/Minor quibble

I know, I'm splitting hairs here. Anyway, don't stop, it was just getting exciting...

Here's perhaps a silly question. Has anyone played with or against or heard about a Godzilla/Choir army with HtH carnifexes? And if so was it at all successful? I know Yakface's article recommends against hth carnies, and I understand why. And I know that most successful Godzilla lists are shooty. But HtH 'fexes are just so cool.

I've seen one get owned again and again and again. And again.

HTH fexes are horrible.

I played my tau against a zilla list that had a hth fex and hth/shooty combination fexs, the combos has less shooting power than normal shooty fexs so did less damange which made things easy for me.

Mission was recon and the only thing of the tyranids to score was the HtH fex as it was not worth my time to shoot it down.... I guess it was the mvp of the game considering it scored the most points for my opponent but.......

Tell me what a HtH fex does against Mech armies (and there are plenty of these these days)

Alternatively, does a HtH fex do well against squads with hidden fists either? Especially when you include their shooting in the equation?

I don't see a problem there, they attack before the fist and empty the kill zone assuming you got the charge, finnish off the squad in the next assualt phase, if the squad is actually the full 10 then you might want to shoot a few down before you charge but either way you should be fine.

Posted By vsurma on 10/15/2006 3:24 AM
I don't see a problem there, they attack before the fist and empty the kill zone assuming you got the charge, finnish off the squad in the next assualt phase, if the squad is actually the full 10 then you might want to shoot a few down before you charge but either way you should be fine.

The tricky part is getting the charge, and/or getting the charge in a location where you can wipe the fist in the kill zone.

Then again, I haven't much looked at what they can do.  They really can get some damage dealers in there, can't they?  

I think if you are going to use HtoH fex, I would probably advise a large amount of gaunts, to tie units up for your fex to get there.   You will need Dakkafex in your elites to bring down skimmers/transports.   Zoas with Warp Blast to help out with heavier vehicles.
Could work I suppose.

The thing is how many CC monsters do you need?
Anything a fex does a tyrant does better and you can take 2 walking CC tyrants with guard which do the same job only better, give them warp blast and atleast they have some shooting ability.

Generally speaking 2 tyrants + some ravaners, stealers if you like is all the CC/countercharge punch you need! What is the point of taking init 2 fexs?