HQ

*        Grandmaster - Azarael
- Wargear - Same as previous but with some amendments.

*        Belial - Master of the Deathwing

*        Sammael - Master of the Ravenwing
- Wargear Jetbike (armed with TL-Storm Bolters & under slung Plasma Cannon)
and other stuff
- May switch to his Land Speeder in which case he now counts as a vehicle
and wargear Shield of night now provides AV14 front and sides.
- If Sammael is included in a army one attack squadron may be upgraded to a
Ravenwing command squad (Ravenwing standard bearer and Apothecary).

*        Company Master (Master of the 3rd, 4th and 5th companies)
- May take a five man command squad but doesn't have to join them.

*        Ezekiel - Grandmaster of the Librarians
- comes with both DA Psyker powers plus Mindworm.

*        Dark Angels Librarian
- Pretty much the same as codex Space Marines except has two unique powers -
Hellfire and Force Barrier (may not change them).

*        Dark Angels Chaplain
- Pretty much the same as codex Space Marines, may be upgraded to
Interrogator Chaplains
- May take Terminator armour, bikes or Jump Packs.

*        Dark Angels Command squads (max 5 models) are a HQ choice but do not
take up a HQ slot you can take one for IC but they do not automatically form
a retinue and may separate.
- Fearless
- May only take a Company Champion Upgrade if a Company Master is part of
the army

Elites

*        Deathwing Terminator squad
- Squad Size is five models (no more/no less).
- All members of the Deathwing are fearless
- Only one heavy weapon per squad (One assault cannon, one Cyclone launcher
or one heavy flamer).
- Squad can include a mixture of standard and close combat terminators.
- Uses special rule 'Deathwing Assault' up to 50% of terminator squads may
deepstrike in the first turn without having to roll for deepstrike.
- Terminators are cheaper than the old Dark Angel codex but more expensive
than Codex Space Marine Terminators

*        Company Veterans squad
- Base of five models and up to an additional five (although a max. squad of
ten is needed to use the rule 'combat squads').
- Can take a mixture of weaponry (combi-weapons, storm bolters, special and
heavy weapons).

*        Techmarines
- Counts as elites but does not use an Elite slot in the FoC.
- One Techmarine may be taken for each non transport vehicle included in an
army.

*        Dark Angels Scout Squad
- Base is five marines and veteran sgt.
- May include a further five scouts.
- Armed with Krak, Frag and bolt pistol and one of the following as standard
- Bolter, Shotgun or Close Combat weapon.
- Shotgun is now S4.
- Rest of options similar to scout squads.

Troops

*        Tactical squad
- Uses 'combat squads' rule
- May take a special weapon if five marines and a special and heavy weapon
if ten marines (heavy weapon includes plasma cannon)

*        Ravenwing Attack squadron (If Master of the Ravenwing taken).

*        Deathwing Terminator Squad (If Master of the Deathwing taken).

Fast Attack

*        Assault squad
- Uses 'combat squads' rule

*        Ravenwing Attack Squadron
- Base of three bikes (may add another three to a maximum of six.
- All Ravenwing bikes are fearless.
- All Ravenwing bikes (including attack bikes) come with teleport homers and
Scout USR as standard
- Two bikes may take a special weapon (flamer, melta or plasma at a points
cost).
- Attack bike can be added as standard
- If squadron consists of maximum bikes (six) then a land speeder Tornado
may be added.
- Squadron is deployed at the same time but may be separated into four
scoring units (2x3 bikes, 1 x attack bike and 1 x land speeder Tornado).

*        Ravenwing Support Squadron
- Base is one land speeder.
- May include up to four more land speeders, one may be a Tornado and one
more a Typhoon.

Heavy Support

*        Devastators
- May use 'combat' squads rule allowing squad to be split into 2x5 marines;
this allows you to split out heavy weapons into two units.

Vehicle information

*        Vehicles come with searchlights and smoke launchers as standard
equipment.

*        Drop pods are more expensive all other vehicles remain at the same
price or are cheaper.

*        Whirlwinds have an option for incendiary Castellan missiles that
remove cover saves.

*        Dreadnoughts may take a Plasma cannon or Twin-linked Autocannon.

General Information

*        All Dark Angels wearing power armoured come with krak, frag and bolt
pistols as standard

*        All Dark Angels squads are led by veteran sergeants.

*        Standards of Fortitude, Devastation and Retribution now come under a
single classification of 'sacred standard' and require an
interrogator-chaplain in the army to use.

*        No veteran skills available to Dark Angels.

*        Codex follows the same format as the recently released Eldar codex.

*        'Combat squads' used for many selections, base is five models and
then may be given another five models for a maximum of 10. When deployed
unit may be split into two separate scoring units.

*        Jink Save for the Ravenwing is gone.

*        Stubborn and Intractable are gone.

*        Rules for Cypher are not included in the codex

*        No Mortis Dreadnought in the codex.

Miniature Information

*        Several new HQ models including two new captains (already seen)
along with remakes of named characters.

*        Dark Angels upgrade sprue (similar to the Black Templars one but of
better quality), icons for vehicle upgrades (no separate door sets).
Including Deathwing parts and robed bodies.

*        New Ravenwing sprue (including parts for the MotRW landspeeder)

*        New Land Speeder sprue including parts for Tornado and Typhoon.

*        2 army deals will be available - 1 Ravenwing and 1 normal Dark
Angels

*        New model for Cypher.

*        Cypher is getting a new model. The new model of Cypher is confirmed,
due for a late release. The model is in a pose crossed between the Emperor's
champion and the LOTR Witch King. I hope you get what I mean. He is looking
slightly downwards, and is armed with a very nice sword and some pistol I
didn't recognise. (source Destris)

*        Plastic Devastators and potentially a plastic Drop pod maybe
released alongside the codex.


All information from a good friend of mine who plays DA, & surfs various forums.  He's gathered this information and e-mailed it to me a the other guys I play with in the area.  Figgured it might be good to share it with my fellow dakka-ites.

Take it easy everyone

-Red__Thirst-

nica bit of info, I dont understand where GW is going with the re introduction of combat squads.

Playing an all Raven Wing army looks to be a LOT of fun. I'm looking forwards to seeing just how much of this is really in the 'dex. Should be fun to learn how to counteract an army that plays so differently from normal space marines and black templars.

Hopefully this makes some of the DA players here on 'dakka happy, if not interested in seeing what the future holds.

Take it easy.

-RT-

Ravenwing does look very interesting. 4 units per FA slot? That has potential.

Man, that looks kinda crazy. Since we don't know the exact points of anything it will be hard to really quantify this, but it seems that the DA can have more scoring units on the table than any other army. If each Troops squad can be split, and each Ravenwing attack squad can be split, same with Devastators and Assault Squads... It would be REALLY difficult to win a Quarters-control game against the DA.

If the squads are really expensive, though, I can see where they would need the help found with splitting their units. It appears that you can have either a 5 man Tac squad OR a 10 man strong one, nothing in between. That could be limiting and pricey.

Still, I can see cagey players splitting squads up to the point that they would always be contesting a quarter or three - a small Tac squad out of sight can hold a quarter for little cost and risk.

Let's see how they lose compared to vanilla:

No 6 man las-plas squads

No 5 man dual ass-can termie squads

More expensive drop pods

Conversely, they get some good stuff. Terminators get Fearless instead of stubborn. They get to DS 1/2 their Termie squads on turn 1 without a roll. Wow. Although you only get 1/2 the real firepower of a vanilla termie squad, you get on the table turn 1. In an escalation game, where perhaps your opponent has a lot off the board, this lets you really get a jump on some good real estate. Drop in on turn 1 and set up camp. That's not bad. But it looks like they're really hyping the Deathwing Termie onslaught by giving Ravenwing bikes teleport homers as standard. That's just awesome. Not only do we get the sweet idea of bike squads scouting the enemy and calling in firepower, the game mechanics actually work in our favor! Turbo-boost 24" turn 1 and call in the Termie-Bomb--but you can call it in in multiple places! Rush a few squads forward and ask your opponent to call your bluff. Multiple teleport homers running around the board on fast-ass bikes sounds dangerous.

I don't know that I buy all these rumors. The nerfing of Tac Squad and Termie firepower is enough to make me question them. But it still sounds interesting.

So they're 2nd edition marines?

With all the set squad sizes, gonna be hard to fill out an army list to exact points...Probably end up having alot of 1800 point lists in 1850 games...

Plus, I don't like the idea of set sizes...I just...Don't...Makes for really boring games to HAVE to put that many points into troops with little return. I'm guessing DA really are getting hit with the nerf stick bad. Wolves might actually have a chance against them now

So it's not a cut and paste from my indentical thread on Warseer then.

I don't care but at least give the source website some credit.

I'm not sure quite what to make of these rumors.  The Ravenwing sound pretty deadly, but the lack of 2 asscans really hurts the Deathwing.  Mixed Termy squads seem like a point sink and something that won't be able to do either job as well as a specialized squad, but some lightning claws for the veteran sarge will likely make the unit better at charging some enemies.

The combat squads deal is a little odd, but it may be useful.  If all Dark angels count as having bolt pistols does that mean they all have a bolter, bolt pisol, and close combat weapon?  I wonder if it is possible to stick the plasma and lascannon in the same half and put the sarge with the power fist and other marines forward as a n objective grabbing close combat squad?

It seems like the new DA codex is all about throwing a lot of nasty little units at the enemy all at once and hoping he can't deal with them all at once.  We'll see how this plays out, but its good to know that they at least get a little more flavor than they did before.

i was so pissed when they went from being these dark badasses to sub-par vanilla marines that decided that they weren't going to move sometimes.  ugggh.

Deathwing squads with 1 heavy weapon: this seems odd considering the DA accessory sprue was rumored to have an extra assault cannon so termie squads could finally have 2. One of those two rumors has to be false, unless GW is just that slowed.
I guess the return to mixed terminator squads also means that dedicated assault squads have to have a sergeant with a power sword and bolter. That, combined with no veteran skills and 5-man squads, makes assault terminators seem not so hot for DA...

Posted By Brimstone on 12/07/2006 3:47 PM

Posted By Red__Thirst on 12/07/2006 1:47 PM]
All information from a good friend of mine who plays DA, & surfs various forums. He's gathered this information and e-mailed it to me a the other guys I play with in the area. Figgured it might be good to share it with my fellow dakka-ites. -Red__Thirst-

So it's not a cut and paste from my indentical thread on Warseer then.

I don't care but at least give the source website some credit.

Had my friend mentioned which forum specifically he had copied and pasted the info from I would have followed suit.  Thank you for letting me know the original source. 

I don't frequent warseer very often.  If I had, I'm sure I would have known. 

In any event, I'll go ahead and say the following: 

Because I didn't know the orginial source, but recieved the information second-hand I opted to go with the best option I had; My friend got the information from various forums.  Now that I know that Brim here originally posted it, please see Warseer for the original source of the information.

Thank you and have a nice day.

This has been a public service announcement brought to you by the letters W, O, E and the numbers 1, 6, and 9

-RT-

Posted By skyth on 12/07/2006 3:39 PM
Plus, I don't like the idea of set sizes...I just...Don't...Makes for really boring games to HAVE to put that many points into troops with little return. I'm guessing DA really are getting hit with the nerf stick bad. Wolves might actually have a chance against them now

I thought I had read on Warseer, possibly, that you could have more than 5 marines in a squad, but you still couldn't access the Heavy weapon until you got to 10.  You also were then treated like a normal squad, and weren't eligible to split into 'combat squads'. 

So, how I understood was: 5-9 marines = 1 special weapon, 10 marines = special + heavy, and can split into combat squads.

It'll be different, but it will also open up a whole host of opportunities (i.e. 10 man Dev squad, 2 HB, 2 Lascannon, split into two combat squads, one anti-tank, one anti-horde, for one slot on the Force Org chart.)

As an OT observation, the 3 scoring unit "split" for the Fast Attack choice has major merit when combined with the Adepticon 40k Team Tournament Force Organization chart where the "Scoring Unit per FoC Slot" ratios are golden and scoring units are hard to maximize.

If it's expected release date jives, it will also be allowed at Adepticon. I'd love to fight DA instead of the 30% expected Eldar or NidZilla's I'm expecting now

From the looks of it the Dark Angels are getting a pretty big Nef compared to Codex Marines. Deathwing is going to drop in popularity right quick I think with the loss of the second heavy weapon and less importantly the lack of veteran skills. I'm fully expecting to see a lot of Deathwing armies with some white/bone painted scouts "counting as" a DIY Marine chapter.

Sure they're getting a lot of scoring units, but I don't know if that will be enough to compensate for all the power loss they're going to have compared to normal Marines.

From a fluff/non power gaming view this actually looks awesome and probably should be applied to the normal Marine dex, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Also, as far as GW putting another assault cannon on the Dark Angels sprue, well it makes sure that people go out and buy the Dark Angels box for all their other armies to get a cheap second assault cannon for their non dark angels terminator squads. 

If that 1 heavy weapon thing is true, my DW is going to become an ultramarines first company.  Also; 5 men flat for the termie squads? WTF!? That would nerf the teleporting DW, which means that it's all pods from here, negating the 1st turn deepstrike thing. Looks like the nerf gun has its sights set on DW...sigh...

cheers

Don't panic just yet. Remember this is just rumors and there is still hope for the DW. There is still the possibitity GW will read this forum and make changes. My cup is half full man.

I thaught that the new rules for termies, combat squads ect (basically more true to a codex chapter than todays min/maxed las plas squads) were to be applied to all codex chapters? is this not the case?

Posted By Cruentus on 12/08/2006 5:56 AM

Posted By skyth on 12/07/2006 3:39 PM
Plus, I don't like the idea of set sizes...I just...Don't...Makes for really boring games to HAVE to put that many points into troops with little return. I'm guessing DA really are getting hit with the nerf stick bad. Wolves might actually have a chance against them now

I thought I had read on Warseer, possibly, that you could have more than 5 marines in a squad, but you still couldn't access the Heavy weapon until you got to 10.  You also were then treated like a normal squad, and weren't eligible to split into 'combat squads'. 

So, how I understood was: 5-9 marines = 1 special weapon, 10 marines = special + heavy, and can split into combat squads.

It'll be different, but it will also open up a whole host of opportunities (i.e. 10 man Dev squad, 2 HB, 2 Lascannon, split into two combat squads, one anti-tank, one anti-horde, for one slot on the Force Org chart.)

You are incorrect. You buy 5 Marines, then can buy 5 more marines and a Veteran Sergeant.

Looks like the whiners win again

They got the starcannon nerfed

Now they're getting the assault cannon nerfed (1 per termie squad, 1 tornado per landspeeder squad)

Plus no heavy weapon in a squad unless you buy a 10 man squad.

Fortunately, this doesn't apply to C:SM.

It doesn't apply 'yet'. *insert maniacal laughter*

@hobbs: Source? You know this for certain? Or are you just guessing like the rest of us based on 'rumors'? That's what I thought.

who cares, lets just wait and see.

All the talk of DA nerfing presumes they weren't nerfed already.

I've been playing my DAs as vanilla since 4th Edition came out. They're basically just normal Marines, but with some special abilities that they have to pay for, and which are stupid when you have ASTKNF already. Currently they're basically just the same as vanilla, with a small markup on a few units.

And Deathwing? It's not like they're a dominating list as things stand now. They're fun and popular, but they're just not that great. The single Assault Cannon rule would break the back of Deathwing, though. If you can't load up on Assault Cannons, Terminators lose a ton of their appeal.

Amen to that. The only thing interesting in those rumors is the possible bike changes, but ultimately, they're marine bikes and they're always a juicy target for shooting, even when they turbo-boost.

I think the streangth of the Dark Angels will be in their ability to mix Ravenwing and Deathwing armies.

If you notice, all you have to do is take a Deathwing Master to get Deathwing Terminators as troops, but guess what, you still have access to the rest of the codex. Which means Ravenwing Fast Attack choices rushing Teleport Homers forward and dropping Terminators and Dreadnought Drop Pods on your opponents head.

But who cares if you're dropping terminators on my head if they're half as effective.

Posted By Cruentus on 12/08/2006 11:35 AM
It doesn't apply 'yet'. *insert maniacal laughter*

If they make it apply to C:SM, then likely I won't be playing Space marines much, if at all, after that.

I hate making my lists to satisfy whiners, and even when I try, they still whine.

Wait a sec. I'm assuming these "Company Masters" are the Dark Angels equivalent of captains? Does this mean that Dark Angels can't get a commander with Ld10 unless they take the Chapter Master special character (who presumably comes with set equipment)?

I hope it DOESNT apply to SM codex....it mean I just have to go back to playing sisters...

Perhaps the heavy weapon limit will be balanced out by cheaper Terminators. I think it's pretty obvious that no one takes plain Termie squads, and almost no one takes Assault Termies. They're only useful because they have Assault Cannons, and that's a problem. The Assault Cannon shouldn't be that good and Terminators shouldn't be that expensive. Now, I think it's silly to just limit the number of ACs - it doesn't address the consistency issues with the gun - but something needed to be done. They've done something, however misguided it may be, and they'll hopefully make sure that Termies are still worth taking.

What sucks about the whole issue is that the Dark Angels have consistently had some of the best fluff, but the crappiest rules.  I know several DA players that suffered through two editions in the hope that finally they would have an army that lives up to its reputation.  The new rumours shake things up quite a bit, but the "advantages" just don't compensate for a few raw strengths that vanilla marines have.  If GW wants to nerf the marines they shouldn't take it out on the Dark Angels.  Drop pods are undercosted for what they do, then in that case the changes should apply to all of the chapters at once, not just Dark Angels.  If the Dark Angels have to take 10 man squads then they should get cheaper heavy weapons to compensate for the inability to take las/plas.  Like Orks, Dark Angels have put up with too much crap to get dealt another bad hand.  Maybe new news is going to break, but the rules might doom the Dark Angels to a long and crappy haul.  They should change their name from "the unforgiven" to "the S#@t upon."

Well, the minis in the pic look nice.

I have to keep hope they've instituted some of these rule changes b/c it makes them more enjoyable to play. The 5/10 strong squads I don't have an issue with. Somewhere along the way, I missed the part that the Ultramarines were the strictest followers and they don't even have to do this.

Strange that drop pods would go up in points (I've also heard Rhinos dropping in points), but not for all other Marines. The other Marines with multiple special weapons, multiple assault cannons, counterattack (Wolves) get more benefit from the pod than the DA's. Inquiring minds want more details and reasoning.

The gimping of deathwing to be 5 man squads with one heavy weapon will make it so you never see terminators in the DA army. Ever. Ever ever. Only an idiot would field them, or someone seriously after fluff.

Instead, I'll take 3 x 5 tornado speeders for 1200 pts, a master on speeder, and whatever else I can fit in. Herro SkimHammer!

edit: oh. my. god. One tornado per speeder squad? Hello! Anyone want to buy a Ravenwing army?

Depends on the speeders: are they the old metal ones or the new plastic ones?

Thanks for pointing that out Longshot. I missed that bit on the Speeders. Man, it seems like some things they think are broken in the Space Marine codex, they are applying in the Dark Angels codex. If they don't retrofit this into the Marine codex, no one will play the Dark Angels. There's simply not enough to entice a person to play that codex. Didn't the same thing happen with the Templar Codex? Put out some neat new models, but quirky and useless rules equated in more vanilla lists.

GW secretly wants us to play vanilla. This way, they can justify why they don't want to put the resources into the BA's and SW codexes later on.

that makes sence. or maybe they just dont have any idea what they are doing anymore, Bring back Andy chambers

They're the new plastic ones

Maybe an all bike army will be viable. like:

3 x 1 speeders in the FA slots

bunches of bikes and singleton speeders in the troop slots:

2 x 3 bikes with 1 meltagun each, one tornado speeder (should be around 330 pts per squad)

I just am seriously hoping that Brimstone got drunk and made all this up.

This must be why GW shut down their forums, because they knew people would be sooo mad.

They got enough people crying at them already.

I think it's interesting that they've found the one Assault Cannon fix that no one is going to like. Those that really liked the Assault Cannon for its cost-effectiveness are going to be unhappy regardless, but now those who simply liked the idea of a squad with that much firepower are going to be unhappy. Players who simply thought that the gun itself was too much, regardless of cost, aren't going to be any happier. Players whose problem was unfluffy relative to things like the Lascannon and Starcannon aren't any happier either. They only manage to make the people who thought that the AC was too strong for its cost happier, and, even so, most of the people that take lots of ACs didn't play Deathwing.

I'll assume that they're doing it to try to redress the rampant abuse of how they want their game played (ie... removing the cheese).


They left enough loopholes in their various rules to allow people to do it every now and then... but when they find everyone abusing it, I'm sure they decided to MAKE it so that people don't abuse it.

They're changing the rules. Happens in any competitive endeavor where the rulesmakers don't like the direction something is going. I just hope they get around to updating the older codex that allowed the abuse in the first place.

Posted By Samwise158 on 12/08/2006 11:13 PM
I know several DA players that suffered through two editions in the hope that finally they would have an army that lives up to its reputation. 

They want homosexualtiy written into the rules?!

You hush, you.

 

They're crossdressers, not homosexual.  There's a difference.

Someone please tell me the blue Marine in the middle there wasn't one of their new Librarians. I can see from here that it looks like ass. Please please please let that axe arm be a separete piece.

And so many dresses! Argh! We get it already their gay! Seriously though those plastic robes don't really look to good. To open and flappy and just to bleh. The hoods look great and the torso section passable but the legs part just seem off. Not to mention the fact that they are clearly pushing that all DAs wear the dress but only model what appears to be 2 types of robe legs is kinda pathetic.

I am changing my stance from Cautious Optimism to Near Total Write-off. Maybe if I sacrifice enough kittens to the spirit of Lord Haines the Character models and some of the new Librarians with be decent.

Posted By KiMonarrez on 12/10/2006 7:38 PM

You hush, you.

 

They're crossdressers, not homosexual.  There's a difference.

Ki would know...

Posted By KiMonarrez on 12/10/2006 7:15 PM
I'll assume that they're doing it to try to redress the rampant abuse of how they want their game played (ie... removing the cheese).


They left enough loopholes in their various rules to allow people to do it every now and then... but when they find everyone abusing it, I'm sure they decided to MAKE it so that people don't abuse it.

They're changing the rules. Happens in any competitive endeavor where the rulesmakers don't like the direction something is going. I just hope they get around to updating the older codex that allowed the abuse in the first place.

Yeah thats the problem. if deathwing didnt have the luxury of using 2 HW in termie squads for the last 2 editions, then it wouldnt be bad at all.

Without retroactivly going back to the SM dex, it feels like a solid nerf for the DEW who use it to remain competitive.

As I have said before and will say again, assault cannons are cheesy in the hands of most marines, but in DW its an equalizer for the poor amount of model count we get.

Posted By Hellfury on 12/10/2006 10:01 PM

Posted By KiMonarrez on 12/10/2006 7:38 PM

You hush, you.

 

They're crossdressers, not homosexual.  There's a difference.

Ki would know...

The sad fact is that the Astartes have no choice but to be that way.  The average Space Marine is just too powerful, too potent for even the most superlative human female to satisfy.  Her kegels would snap like old rubber bands, as my dad used to say. 

A Sister of Battle could, perhaps, but she would be as bow-legged as a Morely sculpt for a month, not to mention she would be knocked up with a baby ogryn-sized mass of fecundity writhing in her nether viscera, eager to burst free and start kicking holes in tanks and beating things to death with large blunt objects.

And I haven't even mentioned the whole psychological aspect of it, I can't imagine the trauma that goes with the conversion process.  Drugs and conditioning can only go so far. A ordinary human cannot fathom the solitude that goes along with being one of the Angels of Death.  Sure, he is lauded as a hero after he kills the aliens that were going to destroy your pitiful world, and you scatter space rose petals at his feet in the victory parade, but what about after?  In that small, dark place in the pit of his psyche he knows that he is seen as a monster, a barely understood tool that is tolerated only when necessary.

Luckily, his Battle Brothers are there to help him, and he cleaves to them when his will is flagging, as they do to him.  

Still slaughtering the printed english language, I see.

Posted By KiMonarrez on 12/11/2006 2:15 AM
Still slaughtering the printed english language, I see. 

Still like the Harlequins, arriving without warning after having disappeared for some time, I see.

Get off Jester's leg! That's my spot!

Whore-off! WHORE-OFF! Whore-off at high noon! *Spreads the word*

Back on topic, that librarian is hideous. The lower half reminds me of that ugly cheerleading Ultramarine.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 12/11/2006 4:27 PM

Posted By KiMonarrez on 12/11/2006 2:15 AM
Still slaughtering the printed english language, I see. 

Still like the Harlequins, arriving without warning after having disappeared for some time, I see.

Bite me.  I was getting a new job (again), moving (again), and returning to my roots as a radiation sponge (again).

Well atleast you eventually made your way back to this desolate place.

Here's a closeup of the Devs courtesy of Warseer's Tom:

Warseer's t-tauri confirmed that the picture shows "the plastic devastators made up with Dark Angels sprues".

Warseer's The Judge says that the new plastic Devastator sprues contain eight heavy weapons, including two heavy bolters, two missile launchers, two lascannons, one plasma cannon and one multi-melta.

Nice.

The plastic heavy weaponry seem to be exactly like the metal devestator parts. I can't see a difference from the metal bits anyway. I especially like the way the heavy bolter looks, what little of it I can see from behind the Vet. Srg's Fist 'o Doom.

Thanks for pointing this out Elusive.

Take it easy.

-RT-

The visible differences are: a chunkier HB feed, the addition of a ML backpack (rumored to have a loading servo arm), the repositioned LC sight, and additional vents on the PC. But yeah, they're essentially the same which is fine by me. 

The HB guys helmet with the Deathwing grill is the bomb diggity.

They look like clunkier, chunkier less detailed versions of the current metal ones. And while they may be tricky to assemble, I much, much prefer the metal. As more and more excellent metals are replaced by substandard plastic sets, 40k becomes more and more low-detailed craptacular plastik kiddie toys designed to meet the demands of drooling munchikins instead of detailed sci-fi models that can appeal to a wide age range.

It's not even that they're plastic that bugs me, it's that it is so poorly done in plastic. Brian Nelson obviously had nothing to do with these and whoever the hell is doing the plastic sculpting for the vast majority of the lines that has come out of late needs to be shot, as they suck, suck, suck.

Nyarlathotep:

I respect your opinion, and agree with it to some extent in regards to many of the metal miniatures that I have seen produced recently in regards to the space marine line, but i have to say I don't see where you coming from with the plastics.

From what I can make out in the pictures, these plastic heavy weapon marines look to be quite well done as far as sculpts are concerned. Granted, they're probably not perfect, but I'll lay a buck to a bent dime that they're better and easier to assemble than the plastic/metal hybrid heavy weapons of the past. (I still have nightmares about assembling heavy bolters >_< )

Regarding the most recent plastic sculpt minis I've purchased, I've been exceedingly impressed by them. Specifically the new eldar plastics, including the wraithlord, and plastic dire avengers that I have just completed assembly on. The plastic sculpts were well done and flaw-free for the most part (I found one or two, but nothing a little TLC and proper modeling couldn't easily rectify) beyond that I have quite literally no complaints.

Further, the recent eldar metal sculpts have impressed me as well. I managed to get my hands on the limited edition bonesinger and have assembled/ begun to paint on it. It's possibly one of the best eldar sculpts I've ever had a chance to work with. Similarly the new howling banshees and the autarch mini's are also spot on IMO, not to mention the new striking scorpions.

Sure GW has produced some utter crap minis in the recent past, specifically most of the newer chaplain metal minis spring to mind, accept for the powerfist/crozius one w/ the ribcage chestpiece...that sculpt is the bomb diggity to use Jester's expression. That is IMO is what a chaplain should look like, advancing forwards, ready to tackle anything or anyone willing to come at him.

Anyway, just expressing a differing viewpoint with you Nyarlathotep. Not calling you out or anything, but respectfully disagreeing with your analysis of the recent GW sculpts that I have dealt with. If anything the sculpts have improved slightly over the last year. Sure, some still make me scratch my head while I wonder how the sculpt made it off the drawing pad, let alone through production. Thankfully, these kinds of sculpts are typically the exception, not the norm at present.

That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.

-RT-

Plastic is so much easier to work with Also easier to convert

Although I do find plastic easier to worth with, I find metal much easier to paint. Conversely, I'm not particularly afraid of hurting a plastic miniature (vehicles and such notwithstanding) when I drop it, but if I drop anything metal, my heart stops beating as I check whether or not I've chipped or otherwise hurt it.

Yeah metal tends to explode when you drop it, not to mention it being severly traumatized by the drop by becoming squashed.

Plastic, on the whole is a far superior medium for wargaming miniatures on the skirmish level.

Anything that can be ranked up is ok to have in metal, as the risk of damage is considerably reduced.

that sthe adv of plastic, you drop it you dont tend to break it or chip the paint work. meta is the opposite

Posted By Jester on 12/10/2006 11:30 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 12/10/2006 10:01 PM

Posted By KiMonarrez on 12/10/2006 7:38 PM

You hush, you.

 

They're crossdressers, not homosexual.  There's a difference.

Ki would know...

The sad fact is that the Astartes have no choice but to be that way.  The average Space Marine is just too powerful, too potent for even the most superlative human female to satisfy.  Her kegels would snap like old rubber bands, as my dad used to say. 

A Sister of Battle could, perhaps, but she would be as bow-legged as a Morely sculpt for a month, not to mention she would be knocked up with a baby ogryn-sized mass of fecundity writhing in her nether viscera, eager to burst free and start kicking holes in tanks and beating things to death with large blunt objects.

And I haven't even mentioned the whole psychological aspect of it, I can't imagine the trauma that goes with the conversion process.  Drugs and conditioning can only go so far. A ordinary human cannot fathom the solitude that goes along with being one of the Angels of Death.  Sure, he is lauded as a hero after he kills the aliens that were going to destroy your pitiful world, and you scatter space rose petals at his feet in the victory parade, but what about after?  In that small, dark place in the pit of his psyche he knows that he is seen as a monster, a barely understood tool that is tolerated only when necessary.

Luckily, his Battle Brothers are there to help him, and he cleaves to them when his will is flagging, as they do to him.  

That had to be the funniest damn thing I've ever read on this forum.  It's not often that I read something online that makes me laugh so hard. 

Haven't you read ANY of my posts?

Try to stay somewhere close to on topic, guys. It's annoying to have to keep locking threads.

Ok then so staying on topic for once what other DA related rumours have people heard?? ANYBODY got a pick of this so called master on jetbike or was that all a bunch of lies??

I believe there is a glimpse of the MoR on Jetbike in the Sneak Previews on the GW website, but it doesn't show enough to let you know what the bike looks like.

Any word on whether DA's are going to still have their Plasma affinity?

Posted By Ahtman on 12/14/2006 4:39 PM
Any word on whether DA's are going to still have their Plasma affinity?

This is my question. I really liked them in 3rd ed where I could field a stubborn force of pure plasma(all my tac squads had plas/plas cannon) so my guys just stuck around and fought. Very shooty, and stuck to the nature of the DA. It seems like the removal of stubborn kinda kills the chapter in a way. I liked it as it wasn't fearless, and it stuck with DA on the entire "Let's hunt the fallen all over the place no matter what" aspect.

Also, making them more Codex Astartes then the ultramarine seems stupid. It's sad that the chapter of the creator of the codex has more special units then a chapter shrouded in mystery made up of elite terminator legion and a specialized recon force.

On a side note, referencing the DA devastator pics, only GW would put a plasma pistol AND power fist on a devastator vet sarge.



3 words. Useless. Point. Sink.

It's funny, I used to be really pleased with all the stuff coming out in plastic, but I feel like a lot of the newer kits (post-cadians, specifically) are softer and of less detail. Ironically, while all this plasticy goodness is coming out, I'm drifting more and more toward metal figs, even one-piecers. O_o

The combat squad nerf and the assault cannon nerf means that no one is going to play Dark Angels in a competetive environment methinks.

Posted By skyth on 12/16/2006 7:40 AM
The combat squad nerf and the assault cannon nerf means that no one is going to play Dark Angels in a competetive environment methinks.

Oh yeah? I will. I'll lose but I'll still do it.

So there.

Maybe I should rephrase that - No one will play and win with them

It really depends in the end if all the bonuses offset the new "penalties". I would really like them to apply most of these new rules back to the main Space Marine codex. It would fix a lot of the min/max problems. I really like what they are doing with the Dark Angel codex so far.

I think I might actually be able to make them work. I'm still winning with Rhinos and a Razorback. The toughest hurdle to clear will be having to have ten man tac squads to get heavy weapons, but good use of the Devs may be able to offset that problem. Not to mention that I'll be able to afford some more marines with the cheaper vehicles. And no one's going to whine when I pull out a unit of Termies with a single assault cannon.

One of the nice things about playing an army that's perceived as underpowered is that you get stand out from the crowd, and it may give a little boost to the soft scores as well.

I'm willing to bet that if indeed most of the rumors here are true the Dark Angels will become a formidable force. Playing very much like normal marines, but with some very stark differences.

Also, you walk into a tournament playing "Dark Angels" your opponents won't know exactly which army you're playing. Death Wing? Raven Wing? "vanilla" Dark Angels? Mix of all three?

Just some thoughts/speculation:

If combat squads are in place, and apply to Terminator squads, it could make them very very powerful.

HQ: Master of the Death Wing Special Character

Troops: 10 man terminator squad, divided into two five man squads, assault cannon in each.

Troops: 10 man terminator sqaud, divided into two five man squads, assault cannon in each.

Fast Attack: Ravenwing squad, consisting of at least 3 bikes (Which get the Scout USR, and built in Tele-Homers)

That's the basic list.

We can estimate the MotDW will run at most 200 points.

The Deathwing Terminator Squads will cost about 440 some odd points each

The Ravenwing bike squad will probably run around 90 to 100 some odd points without any upgrades.

So, that's 1180 to 1200 points, leaving around 650 points to play with to bring the list up to 1850 tournament size.

Using the deathwing assault, where half of the terminators teleport in on turn 1 with no roll, guided by the bikes who have taken their scout move (And which can always deploy even if escelation is in place) you can plop ten terminators onto a flank with no need to roll scatter dice, backed up by the bikes, plus whatever other forces you happen to spend that left over 650 points on. I can see this being potentially devestating to a flank, with eight assault cannon shots, which can either be focused onto one unit, or divided.

Plus, each of those 10 man terminator squads can can be separated into two scoring units that can act independently.

I'm not sure about anyone else here, but the thought of ten terminators teleporting right infront of one of the flanks of my eldar list is daunting. Especially when I have to divide my fire between two units (not to mention the bikes) to cull them down.

People think DA are getting gimped. I for one disagree and will reserve my judgement untill after I've seen the new codex and played against the local DA player once he gets his list started.

But looking at the rumors, I'm fairly certain that DA will be a force to be reckoned with. Not to mention the versatility that the list will have built into it. Just having the ravenwing attack squadrons looks to be huge. One fast attack choice that breaks into THREE different scoring units, yes please.

That's my opinion anyway.

Take it easy everyone.

-RT-

But according to rumors, terminator squads can only have one assault cannon. So if you can split them into two units, then that's one five man squad with a cannon and one with no heavy gun.

Not sure if anyone else is seeing it, but I love the Razorback nerf. So if i take a razorback, especially since I can't have stubborn, I want to put 6 people in it for moral reasons. Well now I can't. Also, my old strategy was take a 6 man squad with a plasma gun and plasma cannon while keeping the lascannon on the razorback, which worked well and didn't use the normal las/plas min max.

To be honest the 2 scoring units for one troop choice is nice. DA will benefit in objective based missions. The Raven Wing I can see as being borderline broken at this point. For one slot I can get 2 units of 3 bikes, each one packing a melta gun and one with a power fist, and a tornado is wrong, especially when you consider the scout USR with them. First turn charge anyone? I may have a use for all those bikes I bought pre 4th to redo my White Scars that are now collecting dust.

Darkness, bikes would have to be good in the first place for this to make them broken. I think this may make them useful, which would be cool.

If you believe Brimstone, which I do, then the terminator squads are not available in squads of 10 which you can then break into combat squads, they are only available in squads of 5. 

As far as the Ravenwing squadrons go, they are available in squadrons of 5 or of 6, and if you take the squadron of 6 you make divide the squad into combat squadrons of 3 (giving you two special weapons and a single veteran sergeant to divide).  If you have a squadron of 6 bikes, you may also take a Tornado (and really, who wouldn't) and an attack bike as separate units which all use the FOC slot of the one RW squadron.

I suspect that Ravenwing will become quite popular, although I expect the points costs for them to go up significantly.  By my math, it's currently roughly 400 points for a squadron of 6 bikes, a Tornado, and an attack bike with a multimelta.  Simultaneously, I expect that people will not be playing Deathwing so often, but will be taking single squads of DW and using them on a first turn deep strike (since half of one, rounded up, is one) onto a teleport homer provided by a RW bike or attack bike.  Putting that on the table, supported by some of the other cookies that DA will have will likely pose a new challenge to people, along the challenge posed by the mechanized skimmer force (tau/eldar) or podding marines.  Likely not as difficult to face, but still a tough thing to deal with.

nobody has read the codexes soi you cant say for sure what the disadvantages are yet so just hold on to your pants and chill

DA are starting so sound quite interesting. I am looking forward to the codex...couldn't say the same about the Templars one...hehe. It sucks...

Capt K

All of those bike units splitting into scoring units sounds nice, but if the points are to high, then you might just end up with the same number of scoring units as any other marine army with 6-man lascannon squads.

It sounds like 6 bikes + Attack Bike + Tornado = about 400pts for 4 scoring units.

Four 6-man Lascannon squads = 420pts for 4 scoring units.

The second set of scoring units have much more lasting power than the first set of scoring units do for pretty much the same amount of points.

This is true, however the four lascannon squads have no mobility at all (unless they choose not to fire the lascannons), making them very ineffective in contesting table quarters or grabbing objectives.

It seems to me that the Dark Angel release is just an excuse to balance the Space Marine Codex...

Greets
Schepp himself

Yeah, but if it doesn't retroactively effect the space marine codex, all it will do is make the DA suck compared to vanilla marines. Nobody will play DA, or they'll use the basic marine rules for their DA. Nerfing one army does not make a different over-powered army more balanced, just the opposite really.

Well, chalk me up for playing the new codex. If I find it totally unplayable I might eventually ditch it, but so far I like what I see, and see no reason why I would give it up. I like what they are doing, and if the Space Marine codex eventually goes to this form of a system it would be great, but it won't kill me to play DA this way in the meantime.

DA were my first army and I can't wait to get started.

I wouldn't hold your breath for a re-write of the SM codex though.

Lets see what happens, the SM codex will be rewritten as all
codexs are at some point, its just a matter of when

is the new captain with the hood and plasma combi going to be a special release or will it be able to be bought in stores?

I'm not talking about re-writing the SM Codex, I just say that it seems that use the Sm Codex as a base and then balance the overpowered (i use the term losely here) stuff, like min/max Las/plas combo, or the Assaultcannon.

If it'll work...we'll see...

Greets
Schepp himself

Once again most armies have there strong points, Its alittle to late for GW to try and balance things out as evrybody eill complain when they do. Therefore they are damned if they do and damned if they dont