Saw this at a local league's forum: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/06/cngames06.xml

Any interpretations? Apparently the old quotes about blaming a bubble burst on LOTR (blah blah, yadda yadda yadda) are still there. Also, what does bread and butter mean in this context? I mean, Dark Angels are coming around, and they like their bread and butter a certain way.

Apologies if this was already posted, but I haven't seen it.

Duuuh...ya think George?

It would be nice to get some recognition. Too bad it takes severe loss of sales for GW to realise this.

heheh
who is Ted Kirby? (evil twin brother spin doctor of Tom?)

I want to say this article was linked in Osbad's GW Profit Slide Continues thread or perhaps Malfred's RichN Posted this elsewhere thread, but I'm not sure and reading that article again only warms my heart to see just how utterly clueless Ted... I mean Tom Kirby sounds: "It was all a bit too easy. We forgot the basic skills" No gak Sherlock. But you sure remembered to raise prices!
 

It's a hard thing to forget!

It's very funny to read the article and see Kirby recognize a problem (LOTR bubble) years after the consumers recognized the problem themselves.

It sounds like they intend to put their focus back on their two core games and leave LotR to the dusty shelves.

Posted By rryannn on 01/20/2007 12:26 PM
It's very funny to read the article and see Kirby recognize a problem (LOTR bubble) years after the consumers recognized the problem themselves.

Actually, the fact remains that they recognised that problem the year it happened- and stated it in their newsletter to investors back then.

Moreover, LotR still outsold Warhammer Fantasy at multiple times during its life, so I hardly think it would've been prudent to dismiss the game as most hobbiest on this board would have liked.

LotR was and is a tightly written game with beautiful miniatures.  I just wish more people had given it a chance instead of being bitter about the support it received in WD.  Of course, GW could've made a really smart move and sold that European Rings specialty mag worldwide in their hobby shops and over their mailorder system.  That would've allowed them to drop some space in WD devoted to the rings and vastly increase sales of that publication.

I don't even play LotR and I own scads of the minis. Cheap fantasy figs at a decent price. Whats not to like?

Posted By pixelgeek on 01/20/2007 3:49 PM
I don't even play LotR and I own scads of the minis. Cheap fantasy figs at a decent price. Whats not to like?

I think the major complaint msot people had was how LotR was pushed in our faces a lot, and it seemed to usurp a lot of the time and effort that went into WHFB and 40K.

That's me playing Devil's Advocate though. I both enjoyed the game and the models of LotR.

That may be true Drake:L its a great game with tight rules and nice minis....the problem is, it TOOK AWAY from the other 2 games folks actually put time and effort into their armies for.

So 40k and Fantasy slide crappier and crappier down the rabbit hole as they slide resources to it.

I mean, I have 6 K in tyranids, 4 k in WH and aroudn 3K in space marines....and all but the marines are painted. And WE, NG and Ogre armies.....why do I want to start a NEW one when they seem to be doing a crappy job with the otehr two?

So you have to be a bit understanding of the bitterness here....they can doa GREAT job with the rules in LotR but not 40k or fantasy?

Blah......blah......blah.....same old dakka dakka rants...

Posted By carmachu on 01/20/2007 4:39 PM
So you have to be a bit understanding of the bitterness here....they can doa GREAT job with the rules in LotR but not 40k or fantasy?

You're presuming that they would indeed have changed anything in WFB or 40K and that the resources that went into LotR would have made a better 40K or WFB rulebook.

If they wanted to make better core products/rules I think they would have done so with or without LotR.

That might be slightly negative but I don't see how LotR impacted the quality of the other two core games.

Posted By fourganger88 on 01/20/2007 4:38 PM

I think the major complaint msot people had was how LotR was pushed in our faces a lot, and it seemed to usurp a lot of the time and effort that went into WHFB and 40K.

A decision was made to make it a core game... and that may have been part of their deal with New Line Cinemas. But if you're going to promote a game you need to do a proper job of it.

Look at what a disaster the Specialist Range turned out to be without any support or advertising.

And lets be honest, they can't fill WD with quality content now. How much more of a catalogue would that "magazine" be if it wasn't for the LotR content?

Posted By Tigerone on 01/20/2007 5:11 PM
Blah......blah......blah.....same old dakka dakka rants...

Blah......blah......blah.....same old Tigerone rant. Seriously, do you ever not complain about complaining?

Sorry that was what I thought Dakka was all about...I mean really anything that is poston on here except the Anti GW rants starts off "I saw this on warseer"....

I actually agree, to an extent, with Pixelgeek: LOTR is not and has not been the problem, it's nothing more than a scapegoat for problems that, at their core, have absolutely nothing to do with LotR being brought on as the third core game.

To summarize, rules design was Rick Priestley, who was otherwise in the background and not doing stuff for WHFB or 40k anyways. Miniature design pulled away the Perry Brothers (who I believe are now contract), split Gary Morely's time (which should have been a boon for the other figure lines...) and added two new sculptors. WD content... well, as mentioned, even with LotR it doesn't have any. What are they going to do without it? More ads? Finally, it made boat loads of money. Is it still raking in cash? It's probably doing better business than all of the specialist games lines combined, yet I don't hear anyone calling for them to get axed (well, they are kinda dying on the vine in MO-only land)

That all said, I am irritated (or bitter as Carm says) that LotR was so well done rules & figure wise despite not having remotely the same size staff as WHFB and 40k. There are only a handful of LotR figs I don't find immensely attractive and that has more to do with WETA's original designs that they're based on than GW. On the other hand, we all know I can find fault in whole swathes of GW's other two core game's figs (and, to me, it's only getting worse). Rules wise, 40k is a total train wreck and I'm personally not happy with v7, all thanks to GW's lack of capable designers on those teams and/or their lack of willingness to get one or more people in with the much needed technical writing skillsets. That and an editor. None of which is due to LotR.

I wouldnt know. I skipp all LotR content. It has no value to me. Wasted space, worse than advertising, to me.

Posted By Tigerone on 01/20/2007 6:14 PM
Sorry that was what I thought Dakka was all about...I mean really anything that is poston on here except the Anti GW rants starts off "I saw this on warseer"....

Thanks for all of your input, you've really added a lot to this discussion.

Thats really it in a nut shell. LotR is VERY well done, for a new game....and lets face it, 40k And fantasy are a mess.

It is LotR's fault however. If we didnt have exaples of quality game and minis....we wouldnt be *female dog*ing about it, now would we? *grin*

Posted By carmachu on 01/20/2007 6:36 PM

It is LotR's fault however. If we didnt have exaples of quality game and minis....we wouldnt be *female dog*ing about it, now would we? *grin*

Hahaha, possibly! It shows us GW can still put out some pretty figs and a good game, though I didn't need LotR to show me what a mess their other two systems are, Flames of War and WAB did that for me.
 

The simple fact that they have recognized a problem is a step in the right direction. At least usually. They could still end up with all of the wrong solutions, although I hope not. It'd be great if GW put more effort into its editing and brought people back into the game with nicer rules and better customer service.

So what if they recognized a problem. Its what they actually do that counts.

Oh GW will turnaround, I do have faith in that. What I dont have faith in is people being convinced that it is an earnest attempt to bring wayward GW gamers back to the fold before its too late.

It would have been a great idea for them to stay as a hobby company, not a company selling hobbies. Big difference there, IMO.

They have admitted to losing sight of what really makes GW special, and havent recognized that fact until the numbers were dismally low despite warning from gamers abroad.

Since GW hadnt listened to their following in the past, what makes them think that we will feel that they will listen to us in the future? The trust has been broken.

Admitting the problem exists is all well and good, but I dont want words, I want action.

If it takes GW being run by another company for that action to be instituted, then so be it. I am sure there are many companies out there that see the real value in GW's present IP, and would be willing to either destroy that IP, or make it better than GW could ever accomplish. Either way, it matters little to me.

Until I see a major change in how GW handles their customer service (i.e. releasing FAQ's on a level that isnt glacial, etc) they absolutley will gain no more funds from my wallet. The only two things in the past two years I have purchased from them were a box of termies 2 yrs ago, 2 deeply discounted warwalker squad boxes four months ago and a single tin of vehicle damage dice a month ago. Thats what gw is worth to me.

Yep, same rant.  Funny, that.  It's almost like it's true...

Posted By Hellfury on 01/20/2007 7:18 PM
 The only two things in the past two years I have purchased from them were a box of termies 2 yrs ago, 2 deeply discounted warwalker squad boxes four months ago and a single tin of vehicle damage dice a month ago. Thats what gw is worth to me.

But what about....nah, too easy.

Heh.
If GW offered THAT service, then there would be alot more customers I am sure.

The success of secondary markets like that are a testament to that fact.

But with GW removing the option to buy many of their sprues seperatly from their online store, I am sure thats simply one more avenue that they can hide their head in a hole over.

Ignore it and it most assuredly will go away!

I'm with Pixel & Nyarly. I don't hate LOTR or even hate GW for doing it. ANY company would have jumped at the chance to do it, and they did an excellent job with it. Tight rules which are being recycled for WAB, good figures (and mostly well priced) that have sorely tempted me on multiple occasions (25 Wood Elves for $25 retail? What's not to love?). It just saddens me that they couldn't devote resources to this game and the other two, or be more shrewd with their marketing (i.e. trying to use a sledgehammer to sell LOTR to vets). Heck, they could have solved half their problems by switching all three games to the same LOTR/WAB rules set (with minor, requisite mods to make relevant for the different genres). Then, they could effectively have had one gaming engine for ALL Warhammer games: FB, LOTR, 40k and WAB. That would have actually been pretty sweet. Too bad.

Heh. Then Legolas could fight Lysander, and Gimli could throwdown against Grimgor.

Maybe you've uncovered something...

Perhaps the reason GW won't offer a unified system is because they know Dakka will shriek endlessly about inter-gameworld balance? "OMG WTF?!!?!1!? TIGNARIUOUS IS LIKE TEN TIMES (2x) STONGRAR THNA GALADREAL!"

I cant say im a massive fan of LOTR but that said i belive if tomorrow GW brought their other gaming systerms into the same pricing shceme thats in place for LOTR it would restore a lot of my faith in the hobby

Posted By syr8766 on 01/20/2007 8:34 PM
Heck, they could have solved half their problems by switching all three games to the same LOTR/WAB rules set (with minor, requisite mods to make relevant for the different genres). Then, they could effectively have had one gaming engine for ALL Warhammer games: FB, LOTR, 40k and WAB. That would have actually been pretty sweet. Too bad.

Crisis on Infinite Earths, eh?  I like the way you think.

Suppose GW got a couple of freelance technical authors and put out a tight new edition of 40K by Easter.

No new rules, just everything organised and explained properly, and the FAQ questions answered.

Who would buy it?

Posted By Tigerone on 01/20/2007 6:14 PM
Sorry that was what I thought Dakka was all about...I mean really anything that is poston on here except the Anti GW rants starts off "I saw this on warseer"....

Well, that's a good thing.  This way I can get all the latest rumors without having to trawl through page after page of "Spase Marinez!!! Hurr!" and "power gamer BAD!!!" on Warseer. 

"It was all a bit too easy.  We forgot the basic skills."   Oops! o

Dear "Ted" (if that is your real name):

I've got a radical idea for you!  What if, rather than simply trying to piss off as many of your customers as humanly possible, you instead attempted to offer them goods and services in exchange for money?  I know, I know... it's crazy.  So crazy, it just might work!

Sincerely,
Abadabadoobaddon

Posted By Red on 01/20/2007 9:08 PM
I cant say im a massive fan of LOTR but that said i belive if tomorrow GW brought their other gaming systerms into the same pricing shceme thats in place for LOTR it would restore a lot of my faith in the hobby

If GW priced all the plastic WHFB and 40K plastics like the LOTR plastic boxes I would instantly look past all of the other gaping flaws with their products. Would never happen though.

Unless their new market strategy involves drastic reductions in price, then I won't be interested. Also, considering I just saw the price of 5 new Dev Marines (20 pounds sterling), which is two pounds more than the 10-man Tac box, I guess prices won't be going anywhere but up.

BYE

Well GW just signed another 5 year license for LOTR. The reason being because of legal delays between Jackson and newline. Newlines license is about to expire as well, hoping to get the Hobbit made. The hobbit movie was anticipated for release after 2010.

Recent news pertaining to that issue has stated Newline wont do another picture with jackson.
derhobbit-film.de/indexengl.shtml
But the Tolkein estate wants Jackson to do the hobbit.

That leaves the Hobbit, and GW hopes for another bubble to burst in limbo...

GW has given a whole wad of cash in anticipation for newline to make the hobbit. Not sure where that leaves GW and their license, but I can assure you that LOTR will be bugging nonLOTR players for the next half decade minimum. This license renewal (because of the jackson/Newline conflict) may turn out to be a very bad business move for GW.

GW isnt going to renew a license and not try to make money off of it by crooning its virtues in their fav ad rag.

I predict because of that, there wont be anything worthwhile in WD because LOTR has to take up the slack. Because the renewal may potentially backfire with no Hobbit spinof for them to milk, I can assume we will see prices skyrocket even more into the stratosphere because GW cannot afford further losses.

As Hellfury points out, LotR is never ever going away. Ever. Not in the next five years at least. And don't count out GW managing to get their hands on the Hobbit licensing either. While New Line is unlikely to make it thanks to the enormous jerkbag that is Shay and New Line's exceptionally sleazy business practices, Jackson has the full backing of the Tolkien estate and much of the original cast, so someone else will be making that film in the next few years. And GW is guaranteed to be there begging to do the miniatures for it (and they'll have a strong case too).

As to pricing, well, large swathes of the LotR is priced a bit high, IMNSHO. Two miniatures for $20? No thank you. Two true 28mm scale minatures for $20? Uh, hell no. Though 20 plastic figures for $25 is freaking sweet. That does at least help ease the entry into the hobby pain, unlike with 40k or WHFB where you get this $45 box with oodles and oodles of figures and then when little Billy wants to go expand his army, the same amount of money only gets him at most twenty figures and often only five or one even one (vehicle) for the same price. Little Billy then goes and finds another hobby (or game system) that isn't so ridiculously expensive.

I expect Lucasfilms to pick up the slack. I'd expect to hear a little more about the deal near or around Easter, and I expect the toys/ games/ and propaganda machine that is hasbro to begin announcing a new aquisition in or around the fall, in light of the next few months of a downward tailspin. I plan on hearing of a certain CEO's departure in light of his recent stock buy, and either he to dump the stock, or him to be bought out.

The pricing has pretty much hit the glass cealing, and I'll be very suprised if the current stock trend doesn't begin a whole advertising/ scaleback/ repricing phase from GW.

- Kirby's flip flop public rantings, between stock info and the trade mags- as well as the profit loss.

- Jervis Johnson making a comback into the limelight, after years of hiding in the Fanatic Dungeon.

- Reconstitution of the Stormboys program, to coincide with the new product schedual.

- Recent trends of the other gaming companies Prepaints becoming more and more popular, Mongoose will get its stuff together, because thier life depends on the next two rolls of the preverbial dice. They can not afford a rehash of the Picture debacal, and they will make it a priority to enforce high standards on the SST evo line.

- The popularity of the little engine that could- AT-43. Even though around here it's 100$ a box, I can see some of the future reductions in price, and a glut in the market, along with sale of the game from an unexpected quarter, Mail order and internet sales.

- With the spread of the information, almost tacticly placed amongst the publications, from Money mags, to trade publications, to the new direction that LOTR is evolving, and the armies level of play that is now starting to grip GW.

There is no way that they will continue to think they can make the money if they continue with the adverse pricing that they have going on at this time.

I expect a reduction in or around the Easter timeframe, well into the Tourny season, and well into the new product distribution time frame.

Halfway expecting to hear about more Online products, such as the RPG, the Tacticals, and other games such as that little heard about chaos game to continue to pop up into the market.

-MMO's are a resource that they will be paying more attention to as well.

Those tea leaves always taste better the second time around.

It would have been nice if the LotR models could have been interchangeable with fantasy...The Fantasy croud (me included) would have been wild to see the new minis they put out. On the other hand, the "realistic" scale of the models makes the models as beautiful as they are.

Other then that, I just prefer the Fantasy-theme over the LotR theme...the movies killed it with their high-fantasy, fantastic-nine,we-own everything hero gang...it's just like they are Space Marines...

...wait...



...they are the Primarchs! The greatest riddle is finally solved!


Greets
Schepp himself

The all-mighty dollar is what matters to me. I couldn't give a rats behind about the state of the current edition rules and codex release schedule or the constant space marine updates if I could get 20-30 models for 20-30 dollars or even 50-60 dollars. If I'm going to pay 50 dollars for 5 figures, I expect damn fine rules support, good customer service, a release schedule that isn't idiotic, and increasing quality in product which I just don't see. My yearly games-workshop expenditures used to top out at 750-1000 dollars a year . I the past year and half I have spent exactly $15.99. What has eaten up my spare gaming dollars? Booze and Xbox 360 games.

I think that the reason that LotR has deflated in terms of sales is because the background behind it is too static. I mean, with 40k or fantasy you can (to some extent) just make up a place and a reason to fight each other. LotR does not seem to allow this, forcing people to reinact the movies/novels. If they had given people the ability to make the world their own then they might have been met with greater sucess.

   I always love to see this argument.  Obviously you have never even looked at the rules for this game.  You do not have to just replay the movie scenes.  Duhh... that is why everything comes with points.  At least become familiar with a product before you make specific criticisms of it.

   One of the reasons the bubble has burst is that it is so cheap and you only need to spend like 100 dollars and you have more then enough stuff to play with.  And we all have to admit that gamers don't exactly need 20 versions of Legolas and Gimli.  So once the movies are finished there was no reason for collectors to buy more miniatures and just making new versions of the same old miniature isn't going to rake in the sales.

 

I've been thinking about getting into lord of the rings, but currently D'n'D miniatures is what's holding my attention. I think I prefer slightly bigger miniatures anyway.

The question we all want answered though is how are GW going to revise their market strategy?
Less photoshopped models replacing artwork?
Intelligent language on the website?
A more equal service to all factions?
Or something else entirely?

I'm pessimistic.

Posted By Da Boss on 01/22/2007 7:57 AM
I've been thinking about getting into lord of the rings, but currently D'n'D miniatures is what's holding my attention. I think I prefer slightly bigger miniatures anyway.

Uh....just FYI.

LOTR mini's are bigger than DnD mini's, or at least comparable scale if I remember correctly.

Not really, there's a range of scales in D'n'D, as in LotR. On the whole the mini's in D'n'D are less detailed, slightly bigger and made of super durable bouncy plastic. Some are smaller than some LotR figures I have but the scale for say a human to human is slightly bigger. Very slightly.
But the scale thing only really comes into it because small models don't suit my painting style which is best complemented by, for example, Brian Nelson's Orcs. The LotR thing would have been a sideline for me, and D'n'D minis is an easier sideline to do- no painting, no scenery, just pick up and play.
Easier, and mechanically fun too as long as you don't get to bogged down in tourney mindset.
I might try LotR later, but for now I'm happily poking other wargames and playing Warhammer with what I've got. Nothing released for 40K in the last 4 years has made me go "Oh, I must have that."

Guess I'm strange. The DnD game didn't take with me.

I should point out that I GM a D'n'D game too, and that was how I initially got into it. I like it because it's easy and requires SFA initial investment. It really is a beer and pretzels game. And I'm lighthearted in my approach to it.

Not being ...emotionally invested in a faction is a good thing about it too, as is the release schedule (everyone gets something new every few months).
It's quite frustrating caring about your Ork army but seeing it relegated to second class army time and time again, and really that is the greatest disservice GW does it's customers. Also, reading threads like this on the wizards boards makes me happy in my nappy. (Clap clap)
Have look. Maybe GW really could learn a thing or two:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=774992

(All of that said, for high quality, tasty minis, D'n'D definitely looses out to GW. The sculpts are far superior in GW)

Posted By FunnyTom on 01/22/2007 2:48 AM
I think that the reason that LotR has deflated in terms of sales is because the background behind it is too static. I mean, with 40k or fantasy you can (to some extent) just make up a place and a reason to fight each other. LotR does not seem to allow this, forcing people to reinact the movies/novels. If they had given people the ability to make the world their own then they might have been met with greater sucess.

You could always do "Easterling Civil War".  Tolkein didn't flesh out that area of Middle Earth very thoroughly, right?

Posted By Da Boss on 01/22/2007 7:57 AM
The question we all want answered though is how are GW going to revise their market strategy?

Instead of making every other release space marines they'll make them every release?

Posted By whitedragon on 01/22/2007 8:40 AM

Posted By Da Boss on 01/22/2007 7:57 AM
I've been thinking about getting into lord of the rings, but currently D'n'D miniatures is what's holding my attention. I think I prefer slightly bigger miniatures anyway.

Uh....just FYI.

LOTR mini's are bigger than DnD mini's, or at least comparable scale if I remember correctly.

*Looks at Colossal Red Dragon*



Bigger is better sometimes.

I see your colossal red dragon and Raise you a Mumak.

Colossal red dragon eats mamuk, as it is bigger.
(It's about 2-3 feet tall if I remember...)

My Horrorclix great Cthulhu so woops up on your dragon and your mamuk in total coolness.

Insanity of whom the deep ones bow to, for the win!

There is no way the colossal dragon is 2 FEET TALL! It's only mounted on a 6 inch x 6 inch square for crying out loud. Its probably 8-10 inches tall.

No it's about 8" or so tall, maybe 10".

The thing about the dragon models is that they encompass every aspect of a Draconic creature. I was literally speachless when I first saw one in the box.

That said, I'm curious as to how the fortunes of the WarMachine company are. I wonder how soon it'll be until WarMachine overtakes GW, if they continue with their current....suboptimal strategy.

What bothers me the most of GW minis, especially with 40K, is the fact that most of the options for troops, HQ, etc. are not with the blister or box set but the rules list lots more options forcing you to buy more models.

And speaking of blisters, how many of you have noticed the blisters are being phased out? Many of the special characters and individual models in blisters will no longer be sold in stores and will only be available via mail order.

One of the many "marketing changes" I've seen GW make recently...

I just measured - 13 1/2" tall.

It's still pretty damn big.

Posted By Asmodai on 01/24/2007 10:21 AM
I just measured - 13 1/2" tall.

It's still pretty damn big.

Now how many of us had our minds go into the gutter with that comment?

*inserts obligatory size joke here*

Posted By Furious on 01/24/2007 10:14 AM
And speaking of blisters, how many of you have noticed the blisters are being phased out? Many of the special characters and individual models in blisters will no longer be sold in stores and will only be available via mail order.

One of the many "marketing changes" I've seen GW make recently...

Not really too much of a big deal. Many of the things going to mailorder sell horribly. Only 1 or 2 in a year. You can get them without shipping costs at any GW store, or independent that is carrying bitz. It's a week wait, which I don't see as a big deal.

As a retailer, I was quite happy to see a lot of those codes move to special offer. I like to carry all available models, but being able to cut out about 50 blisters and make room for new codes was very welcome. I hope I never see another Pestigor Champion in lifetime. We sold 1 in 4 years.

Might be bad fo ryou as a business, but it was great for a customer looking for something. I dont want to pay GW's inflated shipping costs.

Re-read what I said, and notice I mentioned no shipping costs. If you were shopping at a store that carries the full line of models, I'm sure they can order bitz from GW. GW stores all have a bitz station. You don't have to pay shipping when you order through these stores.

If you get your models from mailorder, then it doesn't matter whether the shop has those models or not. If you are shopping at a store with a very small selection of GW, and doesn't do bitz orders, chances are they aren't going to be carrying those models, especially the stuff that rarely sells.

Getting rid of those models from my shelves lets me give much better customer service. It's easier to find things, with less clutter and doubling up of codes. We have 60 feet of GW racks, every bit helps. We just swapped out a large amount of discontinued stuff, and are getting almost 10,000 dollars in current models back for it. That lets us stock multiples of codexes, basic troops, tanks, and keep in enough blisters to make full size units.

Models that people buy we don't get rid of. Things that sit around for months or even years, without selling, I'm happy to swap for boxes that we move on a weekly basis.

Posted By Furious on 01/24/2007 10:14 AM
And speaking of blisters, how many of you have noticed the blisters are being phased out? Many of the special characters and individual models in blisters will no longer be sold in stores and will only be available via mail order.

I like blisters because I can check the models for miscasts before I buy them.  I don't want to mail order some model for $15 only to open the package and find something that looks like the lawyer's death scene from 13 Ghosts.  A GW mail order is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're going to get, but in all likelihood it's slowed.

Next thing you know, they'll start switching to "collectible" box sets with random contents (sort of like what they do now except the randomness will be on purpose).

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 01/24/2007 11:16 PM

Posted By Furious on 01/24/2007 10:14 AM
And speaking of blisters, how many of you have noticed the blisters are being phased out? Many of the special characters and individual models in blisters will no longer be sold in stores and will only be available via mail order.

I like blisters because I can check the models for miscasts before I buy them.  I don't want to mail order some model for $15 only to open the package and find something that looks like the lawyer's death scene from 13 Ghosts.  A GW mail order is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're going to get, but in all likelihood it's slowed.

Next thing you know, they'll start switching to "collectible" box sets with random contents (sort of like what they do now except the randomness will be on purpose).

Quoted for trutheryness.

And sigged.

I kinda like that idea. Its like being blindfolded and pointing at stuff in the bitz catalog and ordering the random stuff.

That way, I can finally build that kroxigor-berserker-slayer-waywatcher-tau I always wanted.

I always thought GW mail orders were microwaved before they were put in the mail. Somehow all my metal bits looked like that had happened to them anyhow...

Personally I have never had trouble with GW mail order. If you get $100 or more no shipping cost so I just wait until I wan to buy that much and then shipping isn't a problem. I have also always had great customer service whenever I order. Of course I only do it like twice a year.

No GW mailorder service is great. if they make any mistakes, consider them fixed.

But sometimes the bits do arrive in a less than savory state of white metal though.

Re:Red Dragon size!
Heh, sorry.
You're right.
It seems bigger, but now that I reconsider, the instance I was thinking of was two dragons stack one atop the other!
Ooops.
Sorry!

Posted By Osbad on 01/25/2007 5:11 AM
I always thought GW mail orders were microwaved before they were put in the mail. Somehow all my metal bits looked like that had happened to them anyhow...

Sometimes I think the metals I get in boxed sets are those that didn't pass QA to get put in blisters.

It's probably more a result of me passing over iffy looking blisters though.

How  about this crappy White Dwarf Policy and the crappy way they treat their Customers!

   I renewed my White Dwarf last fall, under the impression that the magazine was either going to stay the same or get better. I was wrong, it got worse. Here's my letter I sent asking for a refund:

  Dear White Dwarf, 

     Over the past few months the quality of the magazine has plummeted to an unacceptable level for me. There is less and less substance to the articles and layout of the magazine.                                                     

         Don’t get me wrong; I know that White Dwarf has always been a big add for Games Workshop and Citadel products, but it is to the point were the amount of full page adds and endless pages of model parts and bits, and the excessive amount of articles and snippets used to push products has just become over-bearing. God, even the Dirty Steve column, were he answered easy stupid questions was better than the direction you have gone. White Dwarf is now just catering to younger players. The magazine has little if any real substance, even your tactica articles are simplistic now. Do real tactics articles take up to many pages from the endless adds and model porn? Where is Chapter Approved?

            I would like a monetary refund for the rest of my subscription to White Dwarf as soon as possible.

  Anyway, I sent it by e-mail and they replied saying that they would give me back only 15$ for the remainder of my subscription; taking 15$ out for the Captian Sircus "FREE MODEL OFFER" advertised on the website and in White Dwarf itself. Basically, they are trying to steal 15$ of my money for wanting a refund even after their ADD said the model was FREE.

    I'm fighting back by contacting my state consumer protection department, I would suggest that anybody who has had this problem with them or was ripped off by GW to please contact State or Federal consumer protection and report GW's abuse.

Posted By Hellfury on 01/25/2007 7:17 PM
No GW mailorder service is great. if they make any mistakes, consider them fixed.

But sometimes the bits do arrive in a less than savory state of white metal though.

Especially the ones sculpted by Gary Morley.  The mail order troll that I talked to, Conan I think his name was, he said that that's how they are supposed to look, so I couldn't get any replacements.

Oh well.  I tried.

Just in reply to Kingzillas comment about a lack of tactica articles being simplistic...... It is hard to have complicated tactics when they tore the guts out of the rules and has devolved into shoot or hit things. No overwatch, grenade throwing, run movements, complicated vehicle damage etc etc

40K is just a vanilla scifi game being that it has no flavour and everyone will eat it.

Vanilla has flavor.  I like to eat it sometimes.  But when I eat my 40k it makes my tummy hurt!   :(

Posted By Kingzilla on 01/26/2007 1:08 PM

  Anyway, I sent it by e-mail and they replied saying that they would give me back only 15$ for the remainder of my subscription; taking 15$ out for the Captian Sircus "FREE MODEL OFFER" advertised on the website and in White Dwarf itself. Basically, they are trying to steal 15$ of my money for wanting a refund even after their ADD said the model was FREE.

    I'm fighting back by contacting my state consumer protection department, I would suggest that anybody who has had this problem with them or was ripped off by GW to please contact State or Federal consumer protection and report GW's abuse.

Well, I don't see that you're getting ripped off at all. The Sicarius model is free with a years subscription. If you take a refund, and thus don't take WD for a year, they don't still owe you a 'free' model. I assume that you're keeping the model, so you have to pay for it. It's up to you if you want to do the work to write the government, but nothing will come of it. They aren't ripping you off, and I'd guess that the state and federal CPD have a lot more pressing matters than worrying about a magazine subscription. Your assumption that the magazine would get better or stay the same isn't a valid reason to be upset. It was your assumption, not a warranty from them, and quality is quite subjective.

Hell, if things worked that way, do you know how many season ticket holders would ask for their money back half way into the season? "It was my understanding that the Eagles would continue to win games, and not choke right before the playoffs, therefore I'd like my money on my season ticket back."

 

   I am sick and tired dealing with with people like you who DEFEND GW for anything they do, no matter how gakky they treat their customers. And I know your standard shill response line will be "JUST stop playing the game then" and I don't want to hear it so keep it to yourself.

  I re-newed the subscription because I liked the magazine, it is THEIR fault that they whored it out and made it crap. Your correct, it is subjective, but some people perfer porn over substance. Still as a customer I have a right to a refund if I feel that  the quality is crap, and I have the right to fight them if I think I am being screwed. 

  If you read the ad it states that the model is FREE if you begin (not complete) a 1 year subcription. That being stated without a caveat that you have to complete the 1 year subscription is mis-advertising and therfore they are stealing my money. I have evey right to be angery when they state one-thing and then do the other.  Without the this caveat, I deserve my Full refund. It is as simple as that.

  Fact is is that many states have Consumer Protection Departmetnts. I have one in Wisconsin that I have utilized on this issue and as a tax payer funded part of government they answer to ME, and they work for me. It works well and I'd suggest you try it if you have a problem with a company becuase many private corporations have a problem with being honest with their customers and advertising correctly.

  As far as your weak conuter argument regarding the quality of the Eagles and getting a refund for season tickets, I guess it would all depend on the advertising and the rules that go along with the tickets. For instance, if they stated you could get a refund if they perform underneath a certain benchmark, then you should be able to, but more than likely it says you can get no refunds. So therfore going into buying a ticket I would take that into consideration. Your counter-argument is a strawman and holds NO weight on my issue.

      A "Free Model" if you begin a 1 year subscription, it did not say a, "Free Model if you complete a 1 year subsciption". See the difference I would know what I am getting into and if I decided to get a refund for the reaming issues, i would know that the model would not be free.

    Fact is is some people like to be pushed over and defend GW becuase of some free market wet fantasy that customers are beholdent to the whims of corporate business practices. That's why know one should be surprised why GW is tanking in profits by simplifying the rules, overpowering codex's, and leaving their older gamer core base in the dust, and what they are doing to me is another nail in their coffin. It is why Privateer Press is eating into their market share, for the time being  becuase "They Respect Their Customers".

  Warhammer 40k, Warhammer, and many other of their games are still good games (not as good as they used to be). I've invested much into the game and have a few armies, I enjoy playing it this is why I just don't quit, but I have a right to fight back and dislike the business end becuase they have become "Profits for Profits Sake", and if they stick to this it will be their downfall.

Actually, I get better responses to issues with any problems I have with retailers if i report them to the better business bureau. For smaller stuff that is. While consumer protection is a great advocate, you might not see results concerning smaller issues as $15 added to a refund.

In short for places like Newwave.org, use the consumer protection people.

For tiny issues, a simple report to the better business bureau works wonders.

No one wants a negative remark made for them on the BBB site. People are usually quick to resolve issues that way.

Here is GW's BBB report for the baltimore area:
www.baltimore.bbb.org/commonreport.html


and for entertainment value, here is Newwave games BBB report:
www.atlanta.bbb.org/commonreport.html

Newwave didnt really care about its rep with BBB and it shows. Newwave, coincidentally, is no longer in business.
Its a shame that they dont show the entire history of issues at BBB instead of only three years. You would be amazed at how many complaints Newwave received.

Posted By Kingzilla on 01/27/2007 12:56 PM

 

   I am sick and tired dealing with with people like you who DEFEND GW for anything they do, no matter how gakky they treat their customers. And I know your standard shill response line will be "JUST stop playing the game then" and I don't want to hear it so keep it to yourself.

  I re-newed the subscription because I liked the magazine, it is THEIR fault that they whored it out and made it crap. Your correct, it is subjective, but some people perfer porn over substance. Still as a customer I have a right to a refund if I feel that  the quality is crap, and I have the right to fight them if I think I am being screwed. 

  If you read the ad it states that the model is FREE if you begin (not complete) a 1 year subcription. That being stated without a caveat that you have to complete the 1 year subscription is mis-advertising and therfore they are stealing my money. I have evey right to be angery when they state one-thing and then do the other.  Without the this caveat, I deserve my Full refund. It is as simple as that.

  Fact is is that many states have Consumer Protection Departmetnts. I have one in Wisconsin that I have utilized on this issue and as a tax payer funded part of government they answer to ME, and they work for me. It works well and I'd suggest you try it if you have a problem with a company becuase many private corporations have a problem with being honest with their customers and advertising correctly.

  As far as your weak conuter argument regarding the quality of the Eagles and getting a refund for season tickets, I guess it would all depend on the advertising and the rules that go along with the tickets. For instance, if they stated you could get a refund if they perform underneath a certain benchmark, then you should be able to, but more than likely it says you can get no refunds. So therfore going into buying a ticket I would take that into consideration. Your counter-argument is a strawman and holds NO weight on my issue.

      A "Free Model" if you begin a 1 year subscription, it did not say a, "Free Model if you complete a 1 year subsciption". See the difference I would know what I am getting into and if I decided to get a refund for the reaming issues, i would know that the model would not be free.

    Fact is is some people like to be pushed over and defend GW becuase of some free market wet fantasy that customers are beholdent to the whims of corporate business practices. That's why know one should be surprised why GW is tanking in profits by simplifying the rules, overpowering codex's, and leaving their older gamer core base in the dust, and what they are doing to me is another nail in their coffin. It is why Privateer Press is eating into their market share, for the time being  becuase "They Respect Their Customers".

  Warhammer 40k, Warhammer, and many other of their games are still good games (not as good as they used to be). I've invested much into the game and have a few armies, I enjoy playing it this is why I just don't quit, but I have a right to fight back and dislike the business end becuase they have become "Profits for Profits Sake", and if they stick to this it will be their downfall.

Wow, relax there buddy or the medical bill for your stroke will cost a lot more than a captain Sicarius model. Unless of course Privateer Press foot the expenses because they are so great.

IGfan, no need to get personal, it would have been better for you if you had at least tried to address his points.

Posted By Hellfury on 01/27/2007 1:10 PM
Actually, I get better responses to issues with any problems I have with retailers if i report them to the better business bureau. For smaller stuff that is. While consumer protection is a great advocate, you might not see results concerning smaller issues as $15 added to a refund.

In short for places like Newwave.org, use the consumer protection people.

For tiny issues, a simple report to the better business bureau works wonders.

No one wants a negative remark made for them on the BBB site. People are usually quick to resolve issues that way.

Here is GW's BBB report for the baltimore area:
www.baltimore.bbb.org/commonreport.html


and for entertainment value, here is Newwave games BBB report:
www.atlanta.bbb.org/commonreport.html

Newwave didnt really care about its rep with BBB and it shows. Newwave, coincidentally, is no longer in business.
Its a shame that they dont show the entire history of issues at BBB instead of only three years. You would be amazed at how many complaints Newwave received.

 

    Thank you for your advice. I never really thought about going to the better Business Burea before.

 

Actuaslly IGFan, they are great. They know how to treat a customer right. That goes a long way in retail business.....as the old saying goes....1 good customer might get you another, 1 bad will chase 5 away.

Looking over GW's finacials the last couple years....their own work has chased more than a few away, especially in the US market.

I have to say that when I did deal with mail order, I always got great service, and when I canceled my WD subscription back in 1999-2000, I was given no hassles, save the usual "please don't leave us" appeal (which you'll get from any subscription business).

I'm 'happy' to complain about GW as much as anyone else, but their mail order service--including bits, which is not an easy task--has been spot on, with mistakes corrected nigh immediately.

Mail order is their only saving grace.....well, except for the outrageous shipping....

"This miniature is available free to everyone who begins a US White Dwarf Subscription between July 1 and August 31, 2006. Current subscribers can add another year to their subscription to get him free or order him for $15.00 USD from Direct Services by calling 1-800-394-4263 or visit your local Games Workshop Hobby Center. This offer is good while supplies last and there is a limit of one model per subscription."

Also:  http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=304433&orignav=301131&GameNav=301131

Kingzilla: You said you renewed your subscription. You didn't begin a subscription, you renewed. Thus you exercised the clause by which the model is free when you add another year to your subscription. The word "begin" doesn't apply to you. Apparently you didn't add another year, as you cancelled before that year ended. I think it's very reasonable for them to conclude that you voided the offer, and thus forfeit the cost of the free model.

Nobody is telling you that you have to like White Dwarf, or that you're a bad person for not liking it. Nobody here is trying to "shill" for GW. The fact is, they are giving you a free model for paying for a year's subscription. If you get a refund, you didn't pay for a year's subscription. It's a reasonable thing for them to keep the $15 MSRP on the model. It's not "unethical corporate practices."

I think you'd also have better results if you didn't write them an insulting, ranty email, full of spelling errors and general incoherance. The fact is, you come off as being a problem customer, not somebody who is worth working with to assure a future relationship. The whole BBB/CPD angle is also a red flag. When somebody is going off, spending hours of their time talking to government agencies over $15, I tend to think it has less to do with the company, and more to do with the psychological makeup of the customer.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW is keeping that $15 because they know right away that you've got a raging persecution complex, you're going to find a way to get mad and go to the BBB about them, so they're just trying to offset the cost of dealing with you as much as they can.

You may be a taxpayer, but so am I. I'd prefer that the agencies our tax dollars fund wouldn't be clogged with petty requests so that when somebody gets genuinely hosed, and for a non-trivial amount, they get prompt service. These agencies are for when you give a contractor $5000 to finish your basement, and he flakes out. They're not for bored people to argue over $15. Hell, I'll give you $15 if you promise to calm the F down.

If $15 means that much to you, I don't think GW games are the sort of hobby you need to be into. Maybe collecting neat looking leaves and seashells might be a bit more affordable. Although, I'm not sure that God has a record with the BBB, should you become dissatisfied with the quality of animal and plant life he's turning out these days.

Mark this day.

The day I agree with Phryxis.

And actually, this time your long winded post is 100 percent relevant. It has been awful cold lately, maybe I should start looking for flying pigs.

PHRYXIS: Wow, your just another shiller for GW.

Actually, I didn't renew, I began another subscription after a few years. So technically I am correct. If I said I renewed - I am wrong, and apologize. Sorry,  the entire base for your entire counter argument is BS.

So you are also saying that even if I am right it is a non-trivial amount, in that case I shouldn't EVEN fight for my rights, because it is only 15 dollars I should just sit down and take it. Great way to look at dealing with life.

You also have good personal attacks, it is hard for me not to succumb to complete anger. Then again this is just a forum. We both are arguing online and some people get complex's of power and the willingness to become an a**, since they don't have to deal in real human contact.

It also does not matter in the end my reasons for wanting a refund, the fact that I asked and they are using false advertising to keep the other 15$ is enough. What kind of Bush/Cheney logic do you need to spin the word "Free Model" ?

You tell me?

Yeah, I have a complex of not wanting to be screwed by major corporations, if you like it then I suggest you keep your voice quiet and take it like a good consumer and offer GW to pay (you did offer) to keep people like me to shut up. So if you do, you can Paypal me your money. I'll take it, then tell them you took care of it for them. I'm sure they would be happy & willing to reimburse you.

You're correct, I am a problem customer now, one that does not like to be screwed over.

Your spin is basically telling me to shut-up and be a good little customer and not make any noise. I also like your insult saying that I "Have a raging persecution complex", good I can see your willing to actually discuss this by calling me names. It seems to me you come into this discussion just to insult and degrade me, maybe you have an online bullying complex?  Sorry, it didn't work.

Your arguments are weak, you spend most of your time insulting me, and when it looks like your trying to get close to discussing the issues I brought up you go and end it with far fetched argument. Really, GOD, come on, that is such an extreme non-example, unless your describing yourself to me of course.

   If you actually wanted to discuss, without insults, why I should not get a refund with GW's advertising. I would have been glad not to have been an a** in my reply. You are correct my spelling does suck.

 

      

     

So.. GW is revising its market strategy?

Posted By Kingzilla on 01/28/2007 9:00 PM

It also does not matter in the end my reasons for wanting a refund, the fact that I asked and they are using false advertising to keep the other 15$ is enough. What kind of Bush/Cheney logic do you need to spin the word "Free Model" ?

 

      

While I certainly have no love for the current administration...wtf? I hate when people do that.  Much like this post, what does it have to do with anything?


About that market strategy then...

See, this is the first I've heard of your dissatisfaction. If you'd just contacted my service department for a refund, and sent my post back to me with a SASE, you would have been fully reimbursed.



Awesome, we're off to a truly pathological start. Defense mechanisms up and locked.



The base? You mean basis? Yes, the basis of my argument was what you said. Now you've changed the story... So, ok, clearly I shouldn't base my arguments on things you say. I was fooled by your cunning debate tactic of saying one thing, then changing it later. Jeez! I was such an idiot!



No, I'm saying it IS a trivial amount. I'm also saying your rights haven't been violated, i.e. you're not right. In terms of your proximity to reality, that places you a full two hops distant.

As far as ways to look at life, some people suggest that you "don't sweat the small stuff." I'd urge you to consider it.

See, when I do contract work, I charge at least $50 an hour. If it takes me more than 20 minutes to get the $15, I'm really not going to worry about it. It's simply beneath my bill rate. If I spend an hour not worrying about it, and instead getting some work done, I'm $35 up. Actually, since you're not going to get your stupid $15, I'd be $50 up.

Or, who knows. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe you should fight for your rights. Don't tread on me, right? The Founding Fathers fought, bled and died for your rights. I bet George Washington is rolling over in his grave knowing that an American patriot is being stripped of his God given and inalienable right to a free $15 miniature, based on poorly thought out, semi-literate arguments that only he understands.

It's in the Bill of Rights somewhere.



I think this is a variation of the "if you said this to my face, I'd kick your ass" attack that everyone on the interwebs finds so terribly impressive. Present company TOTALLY INCLUDED.

But, I assure you I'd tell you the same thing in person, only you wouldn't realize you'd been made fun of until you were driving the ol' minivan back home, at which point you'd be savaging your dashboard with all the cunning retorts you should have come up with at the time.



This keeps getting more and more special. I have half a mind to call the Internet Lunatic Workshop and personally THANK them for producing so fine a product.



ZOMG! Is Halliburton selling little plastic men? Dude, GW is not a "major corporation." Are you reading what you write? GW didn't refund the portion of your White Dwarf subscription you think is appropriate, and you're talking about being oppressed by corporations and by the President and Vice President of the United States. Telling you that you have a persecution complex is not calling you names, it's a statement of fact.

If I was calling you names, I'd call you Captain Persecution Complex. And I'd be correct.

GOD DAMN YOU DIEBOLD!



There's really no discussion, and this is the case for two reasons:

1) You have no genuine basis to complain.
2) You will never, ever entertain that fact.

But, to demonstrate to you how totally true item 2 is, let me quote the GWUS policy on Cancellations and Returns...

"Please note that we cannot offer refunds on: Magazines and periodicals."

As it so happens, White Dwarf is both a magazine AND a periodical, often at the same time. Technically GW didn't have to refund your subscription at all. Given that they did, you should feel blessed by their generousity, right?

No, of course not. They're working for the Illuminati, damn them.

You, sir (or madam), are a true internet gem. Please take this post as a perfect opportunity to respond, preferrably at great length.

Good thing I am living in europe, there they are forced to refund, and actually they have to give him the mini for free even if he cancelled. They tried the same stunt over here ONCE and got a hell of an answer from the court.

And with regard to your argument. Cool down, there are two barking up the wrong tree.

Posted By Kingzilla on 01/28/2007 9:00 PM

Actually, I didn't renew, I began another subscription after a few years. So technically I am correct.

Well, GW has never been very good with writing rules that actually say what they mean...

Posted By Kingzilla on 01/28/2007 9:00 PM

Yeah, I have a complex of not wanting to be screwed by major corporations

Seriously now.  I don't think GW really qualifies as a "major corporation".  I mean as far as corporations go they're relatively benign - it's not like they've killed anyone that I'm aware of (unless you count the fat guy who got stuck in the air vent).  Of course that's not exactly a ringing endorsement and I'm not saying GW is a paragon of virtue, but when GW releases products of questionable quality no one dies as a result.  Yeah, some of the shenanigans they pull are a bit aggravating, but they've done a lot worse than charge someone $15 for a "free" promotional model after he basically returns the product it was being used to promote.  I mean really... you sound as though they had sicced the Pinkertons on you.

Or maybe I'm just jaded and this kind of stuff just seems like small potatoes compared to the other stuff they pull.  It's been a really long time since anything GW did actually made me angry.  Meh.

Posted By Phryxis on 01/28/2007 11:31 PM
The Founding Fathers fought, bled and died for your rights. I bet George Washington is rolling over in his grave knowing that an American patriot is being stripped of his God given and inalienable right to a free $15 miniature, based on poorly thought out, semi-literate arguments that only he understands.

And by a British company no less!  No taxation without representation!

Hey, give me a minute, I need to go get another... beverage. anyone want one before the topic is locked?

*Clink*
Here's to an entertaining read.
Hopefully, GW's "Market Strategy" would have a clause like "Players named John Christopher Gabriel Kennedy from Ireland will be refunded the cost of all models previously bought, and all future purchases will be at 99% discount"
That'd be nice.

Phryxis,

  I'm so hurt, tears are rolling from my eyes. So far in the response length category you have won sir. I don't have enough insults and put-downs in my "internets vocabularies" to even meet the challenge of your zinger/burn might.

   It's hard to not have defense mechanisms when you attacked me  and insulted me right away in your first post. Tell me why I shouldn't be defensive??? Your last post cooled me down, so thank you. I think I am beginning to understand you and your position (the parts I can make out inbetween the insults of course).

  I did apologize to you for gettting my terms mixed up regarding beginning and renewing the subcription, even without insults. Please re-read, and your right, the term is basis not base. It's hard to think clearly when I'm being insulted. 

  So you think it is trivial, and I should shut up, and be grateful that I can even get a refund: what part of FREE MODEL do you not get? Stop changing the subject and just answer my question? FREE MODEL is what  it was advertised as. The type of logic you are using is so Orwellian, your trying everything you can to change the subjet by using personal attacks, to going out of your way to brand me as a "conspiracy theorist". You are trying everything you can, even flying off the handle (which you accuse me of), trying to marginalize ME and my issue with GW. What logic are you using?  Limbaugh and Hannity would be proud.  I also like how you got off the subject and used the Deibold thing (Off the subject, If you actually  researched how screwed up and how easy it is to screw around with their machines, you might not use it so lightly.)

 I'll address you regarding your 2 main points but first answer me 3 questions without insults please:

    1) How should I have reacted to GW, when they decided not to give me half my subscription back by taking 15$ off for the "free model offer"?

  2) Why do I not have a basis to complain when the advertising specifically stated and let me repeat is again as a "free model"? (Regardless of their non-refund policy)

   3) What is your vested intrest in spending a good part of your post insulting me, degrading me, and marginalizing me? Insult me for being "paranoid", but do you work for Games Workshop?

 

Usually people wait till there post count is a little higher before they start to create this much of a stir.

Wow. People are getting really upset here, and no one's mentioned Battlewagon Bits yet even. ESPECIALLY NOT ME.

And how can you say that GW is benign? Every space marine plastic figure is mined from ecologically destructive production facilities in the Congo, using slave labor captured by warlords, who use the profits to wage terror campaigns against innocent civilians. Don't you know anything? "Blood Angels" indeed.

Wait, that's not right...let me get back to you on that...

For my part, the differentiation between people beginning a subscription vs renewing one sounds pretty meaningless, and I doubt even GW would argue too hard that people renewing subscriptions had a different level of eligibility for the free model offer than people starting fresh.

On the other hand, their stated policy of no refunds on magazines also sounds pretty clear.

I think Kingzilla has at least some basis to be annoyed, though the level of anger expressed in the first post hurts him a bit in the credibility department from the get go. I expect that it would be hard to get a reasonable response and accommodation from GW if I sent them that email, or called them up and ranted to that degree. I think Phryxis responded to this tone in kind, and both of you escalated from there. Regrettable but not incomprehensible. If you could both try to take a step back and ask the other person first to be a bit more reasonable next time you see a post which makes you want to react like this, it would be cool.

Thread done.