I'm looking over my army and figuring out how to best adapt to the new changes. I don't want to buy/paint any new miniatures.

The 5/10 squad selection restriction will be greatly limiting no matter what.

6-Man Las/Plas Squads

These squads will be difficult to adapt. I have two squads in this configuration.

Option 1: 2x 5 Man squads with Plasma Gun.

This option gives a couple of low-cost maneouverable units, but severely hurts anti-tank/MC abilities. This is especially true as my Devastators use Missile Launchers. I'd be almost helpless against Monolith heavy lists. They also lose their ability to stand-off at range.

Option 2: 1x 5 man Plasma Gun, 1x 5 Man Lascannon

This option strike a balance. By nominally making them part of one squad (squad markings aside) I can field a special weapon and a heavy weapon. The difficult is that both squads are rather fragile. The output at anyone task is also reduced by 50%.

Either way anti-MEQ and anti-MC ability is crippled.

8-Man 4xML Devastators

This unit was formerly a darling of competitive Marine lists. All might not be lost here.

One option would be to cave into the cash grab and buy two more Marines. As a squad of ten it could be broken in half and allowed to fire at two targets. It loses durability, but gains a bit in flexibility.


Most of the rest of my units will be fine - 10 man command and tactical squads in Rhinos will get slightly cheaper, 10 member Assault Squads will stay the same, and there don't seem to be any major changes to the tanks that I've heard of yet.

My other concern is that GW will restrict doctrines so I can't take Dev squads as elites - (and thereby reducing the size of my army by ~450 points) but that's unclear at this stage.

i think it is premature to make assumptions on the outcome of everything just yet

we have no way of knowing what can be assembled until the codex actually arrives.. i was supposed to have a copy today but its snowed and iced up here so i didnt open the store today .. dannggit

When's it coming out exactly - I thought it wasn't until next year

I think he's talking about DA only. Personally, if the 5/10 marine squad thing comes back, I forsee a return to the bad old days of 2e, where loyalist marines are basically screwed competitively. If GW is stupid enough to do this, their SM sales will probably plummet. My guess would be that only a fraction of people moving away from SM will buy other armies, many of them will probably move on to other games or simply stop wargaming altogether.

gah, double post

so far it appears command squads can only be five strong

devs will be much stronger, i think the lascannon  is cheaper for them so you could mix that 2/2 with the missiles as they will deploy in different spots most of the time with the combat squads rule

and nothing is really getting cheaper(at least from what i know)but hidden weapons are supposedly same points as for ic(and you still pay for the vet upgrade), one good thing is that command squads are now vets(and so they would get 2 attacks)the attack line for space marines has been standardised(1 for basic, 2 for vet, 3 for hq, 4 for chapter master)

i think people are getting a little too worried so soon, when marines and chaos get hid like this it wont look so bad, although the number of marine armies probably will drop as choices in selection will go down but tactical flexibility will be a strongpoint as it should be for marines. if everyone didn't play min/max assault cannon, librarian w/ fear ,drop pods and hidden powerfists these changes wouldnt have been so drastic but as it is these armies will be pretty much demolished with the new points costs(at least you wont have nearly as much), now they just have to do something with the traits.

There is no proof of a SM Redux, only a single line rumor on Warseer, which the author himself said that may be tenuous. There are 33 pages of discussions on this ONE LINE  where some fanboys repeatedly have said that a Redux is comming. Thats it. One post in One line had at the bottom of possible codex releases: "Late 08 - Space Marine Redux".  No more than someone saying "Dark Eldar are comming in 08".  The author of that one line has said that it could be wrong.

So there have been no sightings, no conversations recored with any GW officials, no scrap nor shread of evidence. Is one line of a rumor that has taken the internet like storm. (Much like that sad rumor in the 80s of Rod Stewart having to get his stomach pumped) However, because its marines and it co-insides with the DA codex, everyone has been up in arms.

Dont worry about any SM redux. I dont think it exists. Its probably a Blood Angels redux, or Space Wolf redux. If its scheduled for TWO YEARS from now, I think you have more than enough time to enjoy everything you have, as is.

 

This is all conjecture we have nothing in print, but if rumours are true. As far as a SM redux is concerned tacticals have nothing to worry about. if you get combat squads it will most likely be:

If you have a tactacal squad of ten marines with a veteran sergeant, you may choose to deploy them as two scoring combat squads.

They had combat squads right in front of our faces in battle of Macragge, I dont see why they ever got rid of them. Its an extra option and it fits the versatile nature of space marines. I would be happy to take combat squads aas youget cheap 'pure' heavy weapon squads plus useful mobile tactical/assault squads. You wont bother with las/plas, instasd have a stand alone lascannon unit and a mobile unit with melta or flamer. Very versatile - I cant see how anyone is saying it nerfs marines.

You remember how Guardians became practically unplayable after the minimum squad size was bumped up?

Currently, marine stand and shoot armies cannot provide all the neccessary firepower from Devestators alone. To produce the incredible amounts of weapons fire it takes, they use large numbers of cheap Tactical Squads to increase their long range capabilities.

Now, assume for a second that the changes are true. Marines will have to pay TWICE as many points for HALF as many weapons.

On the subject of Dark Angel Tactical Squads:

I think most people are so fixiated on the Las/Plas squads that they ignor the other heavy/special weapons. If I where building a shooty Dark Angel army, I would start with a core of this:

3 10-man Tactical Squads w/ Powerfist, Meltagun, Lascannon

2 10-man Devestator Squads w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Missle Launchers

You then deploy 3 Lacannon Combat squads and split the Devestators (so you have 4 squads with the same heavy weapon each), that is a standing core of 3 Lascannons, 4 Missle launchers, and 4 Heavy Bolters

Remember, Dark Angels tacticals get Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krak for free. So the other half of the Combat Sqauds have a Powerfist and a meltagun. I would avoid Plasma because it is not an assault weapon, because they have Bolt Pistols for Free, they can move-shoot-assualt like 3rd Edtion. So you can use them as counter assault units. Or better yet, you can give them Razorbacks and add to the Heavy Weapons you are fielding.

I don't think that the tactical changes have killed shooty marines by a long shot.

@Mahu

THis is one of the most intelligent posts that I have read on the subject. i wish you would go over to Warseer and talk some sense.

Is the squad still a 10 man squad in terms of transport options? If not well and good, but you can only put a unit in a razorback if it's under 6 models. Also, if you can split up the squads' transport options, why not put the melta half-squads into drop pods? That would let them stall advnces and use that melta gun sooner. I think that mauleed marines will still be doable, but straight shooting and termie heavy lists are on the fritz.
cheers

This is all completely subjective, but here goes.  The new Dark Angels codex strikes me as a lab rat for changes that might be levied on the rest of the marine armies out there.  Right now Las/Plas Tac squads are the no brainer build, but are way too cheap for what they can do.  I think the combat squads rule would be a welcome addition to the Marine army list.  I think that it will force players to use strategy rather than just jamming in as many min/maxed squads as possible.

I agree about the DA Codex being a bit of a labrat. It's the only reason I can think that they are so drastically different in army build than the Codex Marines.

If they were to change the Space Marines under this format, it makes me wonder what they are doing with Chaos, specifically the Undivided legions who are able to do the exact same thing.

While I don't mind folks building 6 man or 8 man strong Marine squads, I do miss the old fluff of the combat squads for Marines.

I don't even own a Marine army these days (not since 1st edition), but I wish some hardcore Marine players would take up the challenge to make this style army playable and winnable. It gets downright depressing to read all the whining before the codex even comes out.

Posted By Mahu on 02/02/2007 7:08 AM
On the subject of Dark Angel Tactical Squads:

I think most people are so fixiated on the Las/Plas squads that they ignor the other heavy/special weapons. If I where building a shooty Dark Angel army, I would start with a core of this:

3 10-man Tactical Squads w/ Powerfist, Meltagun, Lascannon

2 10-man Devestator Squads w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Missle Launchers

You then deploy 3 Lacannon Combat squads and split the Devestators (so you have 4 squads with the same heavy weapon each), that is a standing core of 3 Lascannons, 4 Missle launchers, and 4 Heavy Bolters

It's a good detup, but torrent of fire rule may hurt 5 men squads with PF and meltagun.

I started playing Salamanders a year ago. I field the cheap 5 man Missile squads that hang back and take shots at whatever they can while being out of range of return fire in most cases. Duel meltas and a powerfist in rhinos. The new Dark Angels codex makes the way I play easier. 35 point Rhinos with free smoke and a light. 16 point Marines with Frag, Krak, Pistol and Bolter. The list I use is very fluffy and it is hard to be competitive but I usually tied. The new codex suits my play style and enhances it slightly, the points I am saving on Rhinos is made up for the extra cost of the Marines themselves. My Salamanders will be given a Dark Angels Green ink wash and away I go.

"It's a good detup, but torrent of fire rule may hurt 5 men squads with PF and meltagun."

I am with Mahu on this.

Yes, its five men rather than the usual six, but this way you are getting your lascannon fix and your mobile assault weapon fix with the same troop choice. Combat squads make marines what the were supposed to be.

10 man combat Devastators just makes DA efficient survivable Long Fangs. Frankly this is a vast improvement over the 8 man 4ml Dev squad, so much more flexible.

If SM lose double assault cannon out of this - good. I remember in the day Dakka posts on V3.0 marines, everyone knew assault cannon sucked then, everyone also knew that marines had some very solid builds. Mauleed's Ultras for one. They managed it without assault cannon before - why not now?

Because now sales of terminators will drop through the floor on the way to sub-basement C.

GW never seems to learn that the solution isn't making good choices more difficult to take. There's also pretty much NOTHING in the rules (except for the "cleanse and purify doctrine" that reflects the fact that two of anything is more than twice as good as one.

Right now the terminator squad with two assault cannons is a no-brainer, because in almost every situation its superior to the other weapons options. Terminators are effectively an assault cannon platform. On their own, they're just very expensive Marines that fall just as easily to AP2 weaponry as a regular Space Marine does.

What they should do is create an escalating scale of points (so that the second squad of terminators costs more, or the second duplicate weapon costs more within a squad), and make more widespread use of 0-1 or 0-2 limitation on units. Make doctrines/traits that allow those limitations to be superceded, at a suitable penalty.

Mostly because 4th edition rules or the DA codex prevent them from being used.

Rhino rush disapeared with the new transport rules.

SAFH marines rely on large numbers of min maxed squads, something you can't do in the DA codex.

In addition, most of the archtypes developed by the new marine codex (pod variations mostly) are made questionable at best, and unplayable at worst by the DA codex.

Well I've come up with a way for the DA to get their lascannon fix, assuming what I'm thinking is true:

Devastator Squad, 10 Marines, 4 Lascannons x2 Combat Squad that out into 4 5 Man Squads with two lascannons each.

Right now 5 6 Man Las/Plas tactical Squads = 115 * 5 = 575 which is 5 Lascannons and 5 Plasmaguns in 5 units.

Now you lose some ability you had in multiple units, but you will get 4 Squads with 8 total Lascannons, which works out pretty well firepower wise. Now if I'm right and the Lascannons didn't change point wise for Devs then they should be 305 for 10 Marines w/ 4 Lascannons. Works out to be 152.5 Points per 5 Man Squad.

Not TOO bad of a nerf, and you do get a bit of added firepower out of it. And I think we can agree that 6 Man Las/Plas squads in Marines were under costed.

The only question now is what to use along side the support.

I just read the new DA codex this evening and to be completely honest it is the worst codex from GW that I have ever read. DA were my first army but I will no longer be playing them any longer. I was very curious to see who had written these rules then flipped to the first page... all my questions were immediately answered when I saw the name Jervis Johnson. It looks to me like he has finally gotten his revenge at long last. I hope this is the last codex he ever writes. Sorry for not sounding positive but that is how I really feel about it.

- Greenie

Can you do this? I thought you had to take a heavy in one, a special in the other... The one thing that comes to mind for replacing Las/Plas (vaguely) would be to take the 35 point Rhino, take 5 guys with a Meltagun and put them in there, then take 5 guys with a Lascannon, and use them where you used to use the Las/Plas. The Rhino is cheap, and the Marines can drive up, bail out and kill a tank pretty reliably. If they don't, it's still a pretty tough choice to waste your time killing the Rhino and the squad, neither of which is worth much of anything.

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/04/2007 7:30 PM
I just read the new DA codex this evening and to be completely honest it is the worst codex from GW that I have ever read. DA were my first army but I will no longer be playing them any longer.

Waaaah!!!

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/04/2007 7:30 PM
I was very curious to see who had written these rules then flipped to the first page... all my questions were immediately answered when I saw the name Jervis Johnson. It looks to me like he has finally gotten his revenge at long last.

Errr, "revenge?" What has Jervis got to avenge himself over? Having a job designing games for the past 20 years?  Or are you referring to all those batreps he lost in WD over the years?

Posted By Pariah Press on 02/05/2007 12:13 AM

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/04/2007 7:30 PM
I was very curious to see who had written these rules then flipped to the first page... all my questions were immediately answered when I saw the name Jervis Johnson. It looks to me like he has finally gotten his revenge at long last.

Errr, "revenge?" What has Jervis got to avenge himself over? Having a job designing games for the past 20 years?  Or are you referring to all those batreps he lost in WD over the years?

Revenge as in he comes to finish off the DA Codex he started to kill in early 3rd edition.

 

As for 10 men squad with melta, lascannon and sgt with fist.

Thos cost 220 pts... without the rhino... but the catch is taht the 5-men squad with Sarge w/Pfist and meltagun is a scoring unit costed at 125 pts... a little bit two steep for 5 guys... Like I said previously, torrent of fire will hurt them, plus 5 guys inCC against specialist don't last long enough... nevermind that that melatgun must kill something at least 100 points expensive before they die...

Yep. Keep in mind that the 3rd edition DA Codex was so horrible that GW had to change it to remove some of the dumber limitations. Seriously, who thought Dark Angels would be best represented by a trait making them too lethargic to move 1 turn out of 6? Or that Terminators (without an invulnerable save) would be worth 52 points each? Plus there were the instances of clearly not understanding the 3rd edition rules, such as Asmodai paying twice to have a power weapon.

Then compare that to the 3rd edition Blood Angels codex...

People didn't think much of Jervis Johnson when the 3rd ed. codex came out either.

How could GW ever let Jervis write another codex after he botched Dark Eldar and Dark Angels in 3rd edition. He also blew it with Blood Bowl. This is seriously depressing to say the least.

- Greenie

Dude if there is one thing you can't complain about with the 4th Ed DA Codex is that it's overpowered. In fact the biggest gripe people have is that they're underpowered (and thus can't compete with the powergaming lists that Nids, Tau, SM, and Eldar have in their 4th ed Dex's)

I think we'd probably have been better off if Jervis wrote all the 4th ed Dex's and cut the amount of crap that people can do.

I had my chance to look at the Dark Angels codex and honestly, I like it. I like it alot.

Dark Angels are now the most cost effecent Marines out there. Every one of their units, if you tried to build the same out of codex Marines is cheeper. Sure the list is more restrictive. But that only balances the codex rather nicely.

I bet, just like with the Eldar Codex, once people are building and playing lists made from this codex all the whineing will stop.

Now, back to my original build. After looking at the codex, I realized that taking mixed heavy weapons in Devestator squads is useless, since the combat squads are determined at deployment. But because combat sqauds is determined at deployment, this give Dark Angels extreme flexibility to adapt to different opponents in a tournament.

I believe Deathwing is still Viable too. Its better to consider a Deathwing squad as an Assault Terminator Squad with an Assault Cannon than a Terminator squad with one less Assault Cannon. Deathwing Assault means you can jump a Lysanderwind before they jump you and even if you fail to do that, Deathwing can out assault regular Terminators.

I still see a lot of potential with this codex.

Mahu - if you like the codex so much I highly encourage you to start a brand new DA army. I mean that in the nicest way possible too. There are certainly some nice looking new minis being released.

In terms of griping about it being under-powered, it is. Who would field this in attempt to compete against other better armies such as Ultramarines and eldar for tournament play? The rules are highly restrictive and take the fun out of being able to design an army with character. The HQ choices are a joke. Jervis now says DA would not use terminator honors (including HQ suited in terminator armor), but this is the same guy who made it mandatory for DA HQ to take terminator honors in 3rd edition. This is his payback to all the DA players who hated him for writing their 3rd edition codex.

Here are a few of my gripes:

Scouts as an elite choice; Scouts are novice Marines at best. Sure they represent a small percentage of the Chapter but they are not elite by a long shot. The classification of elite should be reserved for veterans. Take a look at Wolf Scouts as a comparison - Wolf Scouts have existing fluff that represents them as veterans plus they have access to special rules, power weapons, special weapons, and meltabombs. Who is going to field scouts in a DA army as elites when you can take dreadnaughts, veteran Space Marines, or terminators?

As I said above DA HQ have three attacks with no access to terminator honors. DA HQ have been nerfed in a big way with a very limited selection of wargear. Now only the special character Azrael can take the Sword of Secrets. MotRW on a jetbike is a fantastic looking miniature and I will buy just to collect it. He has some cool rules and more wargear than most other DA HQ, such as the admantium cloak and an iron halo. The Raven Sword now counts as a master crafted power weapon and the MotRW only has three attacks. Truly lame.

For every HQ you take you can also field one command squad, but the command squad is a separate unit from the HQ... so you will have to roll for them separately if they are held in reserve. That one just does not make any sense at all. There is no terminator command squad for HQ in terminator armor. Who is going to deep strike a single HQ all by his lonesome?

You have to take ten Marines in a tactical squad to get one heavy weapon. Five Marines with a special weapon just does not cut the mustard. A powerfist for the veteran sergeant costs 25 points. What is up with that???

I do not like the new layout of the codex. You have to constantly fill back and forth through the codex to find entries for each unit.


There is some cool stuff in the codex but it is all ruined by the bad things in my opinion. Some people are already asking if GW is going to rewrite this codex. I am planning to run my DA army as a successor Chapter and use the rules for Ultramarines. I sure am glad I painted mine using the pre-heresy color scheme.

- Greenie

Right now, without having seen the new codex, I would play something like this:

Master of the Ravenwing on Speeder

2x Full Ravenwing Squadrons- 6 bikes, 2 melta guns, powerfist?, attack bike w/multi-melta, Tornado
2x 1 Tornados
1x10 Assault Marines- 2 flamers, powerfist

1x 10 Man Devastators squad w/ 4 lascannons, rhino

That still nets you alot of mobility, 5 assault cannons (1 BS5 twinlinked) 4 meltas, 2 multi-meltas, and 4 lascannons. Also has something like 13 scoring units. That rhino would be used for mobile terrain for the assault marines.

Right now, without having seen the new codex, I would play something like this:

Master of the Ravenwing on Speeder

2x Full Ravenwing Squadrons- 6 bikes, 2 melta guns, powerfist?, attack bike w/multi-melta, Tornado
2x 1 Tornados
1x10 Assault Marines- 2 flamers, powerfist

1x 10 Man Devastators squad w/ 4 lascannons, rhino

That still nets you alot of mobility, 5 assault cannons (1 BS5 twinlinked) 4 meltas, 2 multi-meltas, and 4 lascannons. Also has something like 13 scoring units. That rhino would be used for mobile terrain for the assault marines.

That army sounds cool but would it really be that competitive? It is quite small for sure. You can do a lot more with Ultramarines to be completely honest.

- Greenie

You will most definately see some of the minatures mixed into my Word Bearers army. I have thought about a Dark Angels army, but too many people in my gaming group has expressed an interest in them as well, and they don't see them as uncompetitve.



Scouts may have a use in Deathwing (if they have access to homers still) and Ravenwing for there ability to deploy forward. Though I would agree that in a normal army, the elite slot kills them.



Yes, but what i saw of the HQ choices, their lack of Wargear access is made up of all the things they get standard. For example, Dark Angel Librarians automatically come with powers.



The Combat Squad rule does ofset the 10-man restriction. 5 Marines with a special weapon is desposible. In my army evaluation, I looked at them as assault blockers, they run up on an advanceing Assault Army, charge and die 7" + away from your line shootieness. Then you shot back with the crazy amount of shooting availible to them. They can field the equivalent of 6 Devestator squads as their heavy support.

I believe the Powerfist is properly priced. A powerfist Veteran in the Dark Angels is what 55 Points (you get the Veteran alrady anyway), in the Space Marine Codex the same was 45 Points if I remember correctly. Is a ten point increase for a hidden powerfist that bad? I don't think so.



I liked it. It is more clearly defined what everybody has and what things are replaceing what. No more "my Lascannon guy has a bolter" anymore. I don't understand why people are complaining about the constant flipping. How many times do you need to know what a powerfist does or what your powers do. I don't know about you, but after a while of playing an army, you rarely need to look at your codex during a game.

So the DA Librarians come with powers. You can choose the powers you like for Space Marine Librarians. Who here is going to say that a new DA Librarian is better than a Space Marine Librarian? Wyrm... what can I say about that one? Ten points extra for the powerfist is ten points and it adds up. Why should DA have to pay extra? Is that part of the new coolness factor Jervis was going for? If so I say he missed the mark. Put the new DA codex next to the new eldar codex and tell me who got the better end of the bargain. I have played DA for well over ten years now. The new codex sucks the big one. The constant flipping is a pain. Actually it is enough of a pain that I am not even going to bother buying the new codex. Luckily for me my army is painted pre-heresy (black) so I can run them as a successor Chapter and use the rules for Ultramarines. DA were pretty good with the second version of the rules written by Andy Hoare for third edition. You could do a lot of cool stuff and build an army with lots of character. DA is all about character. If you do not plan to play the army or have never played it then your opinion is just that... only an opinion from an outsider that has not invested a lot of time and money into this chapter. I am much more interested to hear what other DA players think about this dark horror penned by Jervis. Being a DA player is truly a painful experience. I remember when we had to pay for stubborn and BA still gets furious charge for free. If GW wants to push this load of fresh rubbish off on us then that is okay, because I will just play something else... something fun and competitive... not the new anti-Marine Dark Angels fer sure.

- Greenie

What the heck is up with losing Terminator Honors? That’s moronic. REQUIRING it made sense, as all HQs are members of the Deathwing, and therefore are Terminators/have that level of training/experience. Bloody idiocy.

That aside, I’m going to at least get the codex and give it a try before I abandon my chapter. I've only played them using the current list (since Dec 04), but I'd rather not switch chapters if I can help it. The following is some speculative list tinkering based on the rumors so far.

My usual list in 1850 would be something like: jumppack chaplain, 10 man tac in Rhino with fist, missile & melta, 10 tac in rhino w/fist, las & flamer, 6 tac in razor w/las,& flamer, 6 tac w/las& plas, 6 tac w/plas & plas, 1 Tornado, 8 assault marines w/fist & 2 plas pistols, vindicator, 3 las pred, and 8 man Dev squad w/ 4 missiles.

This list definitely takes some hits. I’m going to lose some firepower no matter what, but I think I can still make a decent army which will be very similar.

Tentative changes-
Chaplain: Much the same.
10 tac w/fist, missile, melta: will be 10pts more expensive for the fist. I’ll probably actually drop the extra armor from the rhino. That saves 15pts, for a net savings of 5.
10 tac w/fist, las, flamer: 15pts more expensive. I’d either drop the extra armor to offset and keep them the same, or downgrade the las to a missile launcher and save points.
6 tac in razor w/las, flamer: Probably just go 5 with plasma. Cheaper, and won’t have the long range anti-tank, but becomes a dedicated mobile unit and can still use the plasma to fry termies, monstrous creatures, or marines.
6 tac, las/plas and 6 tac, plas/plas. 10 man squad, split into las and plas combat squads. I lose a heavy and a special, but save some points.
Tornado: Should be the same.
8 Assault marines: Ditto.
Vindicator: Hopefully the same. If it takes some weird hit, might swap out (see below).
3 Las pred: Rumor says this is more expensive. Can anyone tell me how much more? Might swap.
8 Devs, 4 ML. Use the points saved above (should be about 91pts depending on any changes to the tanks and chappy, and maybe more if the razor also gets a price break) to upgrade the devs to 10 men, break into combat squads, probably upgrade two of the ML to Lascannons. That would be 60pts at current prices, which hopefully leaves more than enough to cover any increases on the pred/vindi/chappy.

If the 3 las pred gets some preposterous price increase, I might drop a tac squad (or half of the las/plas pair) to get a second full devastator squad, again broken into combat squads.

Based on the plan above…

Losses:
1 attack on my chaplain (no more Termie Honors)
Extra armor on my transports (not as critical in 4th anyway, since units can still disembark even when Stunned, and I spend less time in the things anyway)
1 marine (and I may be able to buy him back depending on leftover points after upgrading the devs)
2 missile launchers, 1 plasma cannon, and a flamer.

Gains:
1 lascannon
One scoring unit by splitting the devs, the option to split the rhino squads as well if I really thought it was a good idea.
More points in scoring units. The cheaper transports and more expensive stuff shift some points out of the non-scoring elements and into scoring units.
More task-focused units.

It’s definitely not an improvement, but it still looks viable. If I drop something to add another Devastator squad, I might even be able to get my guns back around the number I had before, possibly with the gain of yet another scoring unit.

Any thoughts? Anyone have any more codex info they want to share that would bear on this? Any changes I’m missing to characters, assault squads, Razorbacks, the Pred or the Vindi?

Anyone know if there is any restriction on the number of heavy weapons in dev squads under 10 models?

Predator and drop pods cost more now. Rhinos without extra armor could be a liability.

- Greenie

I appreciate your pain, Green Bloater, but I'd appreciate details more.

How much does the pred cost? The rumor I heard was that 3 las Anni is more expensive, but Destructor (or Anni w/HB) might be cheaper. Any info on Vindicators or Devs?

Pods for 50pts will hurt. I have 8 built and painted to a friendly play standard, so I will probably have to go C:SM instead of DA if I want to pod. But that's not the main way I play the army anyway, so I'm not crying.

Extra armor is substantially less important in 4th than it was in 3rd. Is it worth 5pts? Sure. 15? Maybe not.

I wish I could tell you more. I had a long look last night but it probably won't be until this Friday that I can look again. I will see what I can see and report back.

- Greenie

What the hell is all the ranting about not getting terminator honors? They do get it. The Command HQ squads are vets. when I looked at the codex, it was built into their statline. A2. Reread it. The DA codex isn't as bad as everyone is claiming it is. The flexibility with scoring units paired with focused units, makes this codex much better than the dull and boring Vanilla marine codex. I also don't see the Scouts as an elites slot a liability. I see it as an advantage. Nine times out of ten, if you are running heavy on scouts, you probably aren't fielding termies anyways. Secondly, the scouts will be an extremely versatile units with a mix of shotguns and close combat weapons. As to the person that was complaining that only Azrael can take the sword of secrets...good...he was supposed to be the only one to wield it anyways as he is the chapter master...and only they had the right to carry it into battle. This whole debate reminds me of how many people were pissing and moaning about the Eldar codex...the funny thing is...you don't hear from them anymore.

Capt K

The nay sayers always moaned about new codecies until the brave few figure out how to make it work. I remember past posts saying how Nids would never work and just recently that Eldar were getting nerfed. In hindsight both seem do be doing fine. The only thing peculiar to me is taking away options after the fact from the regular marine dex. Makes me wonder what the playtesters were play testing when using assault cannon rules. Especially in term squads and the sheer number of fire power 2 Donkey cannons add in combination with the ability to deepstrike or pod.

I thought destructors were cheaper and annilators were more expensive? I didn't get a chance to verify that rumor but seems to keep with the overall changes (ie lascannons getting more expensive).

Overall I think the DA got the nerf stick but I think that is more to do with the Space Marine dex being a bit too good then the DA dex being bad. They probably should have waited to release any new marines under this new system until the SM redux, that way the umpteen DA players weren't stuck with an inferior dex for several years.

Anyways, I think a good DA list will need to make use of the extra stuff that the units are bundled (like vet sgts, pistols, grenades,etc.) The list below is a 1750 list using this principle for a battle company type list (no deathwing or speeders). As you can see, every tactical has a vet with a weapon, as it'd be a waste not to make use of that ability.

Company Master -- 85ish
2x Dread -- 210ish
3x 10 man Tactical: lascannon, flamer, powerweapon 615
2x 10 man Tactical: lascannon, meltagun, powerfist, rhino 510
3x Predator destructor -- 330ish

So you have a decent firebase and firepower, some counter charge, mobile elements and the tools to deal with most army types. The 5 special/weapn vet sgt units can use the rhinos for cover or stay around the fire base for counter charge. It's not perfect (escalation would be a bit rough) but its a start.

I like the Space Marine codex and plan to start playing it now. DA is not what it used to be by a long shot, not that they were ever that good to begin with. And no DA do not get terminator honors, if they did they would be listed as having A4, not A3. Except for an AV14 landspeeder whatever DA has, Space Marines have it better and a lot more flexibility. Anyone who says DA is a good codex needs to have their head examined.

"The flexibility with scoring units paired with focused units, makes this codex much better than the dull and boring Vanilla marine codex."

Space Marines have traits, terminator command squads, veteran skills, selectable pyschic powers, Honorguard, Tyrannic War Veteran, good special characters, terminator squads with two heavy weapons, 30 point drop pods, characters that can select their wargear, and a lot of other nifty stuff. How can you call that boring?

"I also don't see the Scouts as an elites slot a liability. I see it as an advantage."

Right.

- Greenie

Greenie, recheck the statlines again for vets. Veterans base stat line is 2 attacks (1 base + 1 for termie honors)...add in 2 close combat weapons and you are at 3. They get 4 on a charge. The DA command squads are automatically vets. Check their statline..base 2 attacks. They are vets.



More like people need to calm down and absorb what they read. People were howling and crying when the Bugs book came out, moaned how nerfed the Eldar would be when their book came out....but sadly you don't hear from those people anymore...additionally both those books have some of the best competitive builds right now...funny that..



Because 90% of the stuff in the vanilla codex is no-brainer choices and ultimately all marine armies all end up looking the same, or taking the same healthy dose of donkey-cannons. So in the end, it is bland and unimaginative. While I like Ultramarines, I ended up selling my army because it was getting too easy to win with and the game play was boring. What you seem to be missing is that most of that flexibility that the vanillas have is still in the DA codex (I would argue that the DA tactical squads are better since they have Bolt Pistols standard). Most of the cool options are built in and in some cases offer a points savings. I'd much rather have a Librarian with all the powers than choose. Now that I pay one price, I get them all. Perfect flexibility since I can use whatever powers I want, when I want. Who says that the special characters for DA blow? The DA have the ability to increase the amount of scoring units by splitting their units...which make their Devs even better than vanilla marines. Yeah...the suck all right. Additionally, how anyone can claim that having scouts in the elite slot as being a liability. So they move into the elites slot...how does that matter? I think having Str 4 assault 2 guns is a good trade off. They are one of the few foot units now that can take 3 actions in a turn. Hardly a liability.

Capt K

Yeah, but it's not that good, either. This particular rule really captures the essence all the DA rumors I've heard so far. They're vanilla Marines, but worse. I mean, is 25 points too much to pay for a Power Fist? No... I'd still put them on my Assault squad Sarge if they cost 25. But I don't have to pay 25 points, I pay 15.

What could the logic possibly be that says that DA need to pay more for a Power Fist than vanilla Marines?

The loss of Terminator Honors is also a pointless slap in the face with no real basis in fluff. Does anybody ever choose NOT to give a 100+ point character an extra Attack for 10 points?



Unless they're Infiltrating Homers for the Terminators...

Making Scouts Elites doesn't make a ton of sense as I understand the fluff, and it's doubly useless when they force 10 man squads, which frees up even more Troops slots.



He's talking about the HQ choices, not the veterans.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 02/05/2007 3:17 PM
Because 90% of the stuff in the vanilla codex is no-brainer choices...

If 90% of a Codex is useful that you could considered it a 'no brainer', then I'd call it a successful Codex, not a boring one. The boring Codices are the ones where there are very few no brainers, and everything else sucks.

BYE

ID
DT
COD
Vets
RR?

Posted By Phryxis on 02/05/2007 4:16 PM

Is a ten point increase for a hidden powerfist that bad? I don't think so.

Yeah, but it's not that good, either. This particular rule really captures the essence all the DA rumors I've heard so far. They're vanilla Marines, but worse. I mean, is 25 points too much to pay for a Power Fist? No... I'd still put them on my Assault squad Sarge if they cost 25. But I don't have to pay 25 points, I pay 15.

What could the logic possibly be that says that DA need to pay more for a Power Fist than vanilla Marines?

  I believe that the logic is that Codex marines pay too little.  Codex creep is a Bad Thing.  The new DA codex is an attempt to stop codex creep.  The new Space Marines Redux in the pipeline and the new Chaos codices will presumably bring the two most powerful codices down to a more reasonable level of balance.  Yes, it sucks that everyone else has to play against these overpowered codices until GW gets around to revising them, but them's the breaks, kids.  It would sure be nice if every armylist, played by a competant general, could stand a chance against every other armylist, instead of the imbalanced hodge-podge we have now (Kroot Mercs vs. Iron Warriors?)

I generally agree that it's a bad thing, but I'd also argue that "creep" can be in any direction. In the case of the DA, it appears to be a nerfward direction. So, while I'd agree that creep is undesirable, I'd argue that inconsistant up and down creep is the worst sort of all.

Slow upward creep is, really, not the worst thing in the world, both for GW's sales, and for the game. If each new Codex is a tiny bit better, it drives people to build new armies, and it constantly changes the power dynamics of the game.

So, I'd prefer they balanced the Codices, but if things have to creep, I'd prefer a slow, gradual uptick in power levels. The notion of reversing the trend seems foolish to me. If Codex SM represents the high point in creep, then just release all subsequent Codices at a level on par with that, and be consistent about it.

Let's look at some lists, shall we? (this is based on points cost from memory, but I will be as conservative as possible.


Deathwing

I am going to assume that the Master of the Deathwing is 200 points.

Now, each Terminator Sqaud cost 215-225 plus 35 for the Assault Cannon. So average is about 250. Since they are troops choices, I will field 5 squads of five which nets me 1250 + 200 for the character nets me 1450. That leaves me four hundred points to spend on extra goodies. I can easily field 3 Individual squads of Land Speeder Tornados, which takes me to 1735, and I can fill out the rest with elite scouts or Ravenwing bikers to get my homers far forward.

That is 25 Terminators, the same as a Lysanderwing. Sure the Lysanderwing may have 13 Assault Cannons to my 8, but they have one turn to shoot me off the table before my Lightning Claws own them.

Ravenwing

Say that the 6 Bike, one Land Speeder Attack Squadron is roughly 350 (based on current points with 50 added on for Veteran Sergents, increased Assault Cannon cost what have you)

Now say I take 3 of those as my troop choices, so for 1050 Points I am placing 9 Scoring units on the table. 6 of those are three man bike squads, 3 of those are Land Speeders.

Now say I take three more Land Speeders as Fast Attack for 300 points (that's counting an increased cost for the assault cannon).

Now, for roughly1350, I am fielding 6 Land Speeders total and six Assault Cannons, flanked with 6 Bike sqauds. Add in 200 for the Master of the Ravenwing and you have 1550, That is 300 points left to spend on a Terminator Squad, Scouts, etc.

You can go really crazy and up the squad size of the Land Speeders. You can field 5! in a squadron, sure only one can have an Assault cannon, but you can field almost 15 Land Speeders in the new codex. All can be armed with Multi-melta and even Godxilla Nids will fear that.

The definition of redux is to be brought back. Many are falling under the rumored assumption that the GW term Space Marine Redux means that Space Marines will be brought back in line with the new Dark Angels codex. Look at the definition again - to be brought back. There is also a rumor this codex will provide full rules for other chapters such as Ravenguard and Imperial Fists.

- Greenie

And you will never catch them. You can't Assault the turn you Deepstrike. They've got 24" range on their Assault Cannons, and they can move as fast as you can. You can chase them around all day, while they shoot you with more than twice the firepower you shoot back with.

Should you ever have the good fortune of catching them, it will be readily apparent to them, and they'll assault first, immediately after molesting your squad with twin Assault Cannons.  Yes, Lightning Claws are great on Terminators.  But so are Power Fists.

Good luck finding terrain to hide a unit of five. Good luck finding terrain to hide 15 total. Landspeeders are great, but in limited doses. In single model units, they're a nice fast chunk of firepower. More than that, and there's always a piece of AV10 pudding hanging out of cover.

The problem with all the fantastic ideas you're coming up with is that they all fall victim to at least one of these three problems:
1) Vanilla Marines can do it.
2) Vanilla Marines can do it for less.
3) The idea isn't that fantastic.

There isn't a whole lot that the Dark Angels got over C:SM at all. The biggest thing from what I can tell is the fact that Devastator squads became a whole lot better with the combat squads rule: 5 Marines with two heavy weapons each is a lot better than the normal 5 or 6 Man Tactical squad with a heavy weapon (las) and a special (plas).

The problem is that outside of the incredible firepower and number of units that can be done with your three heavy support slots, there isn't a whole lot that's REALLY good. The way I look at Marine Armies is that you build something to give you support (ie Lascannons) and then you take things to move forward and do some work killing things. For the "best" marine build that involves Las/Plas squads, Speeders, and Terminators w/ Assault Cannons as the best things you can probably take. Assault Marines and Predators follow up behind those choices as the next optimal units to take - IMO.

I can see that for putting out a crazy amount of firepower you could take 2 10 Man Devastator Squads w/ 4 Lascannons (combat squad'd out to 4 5 Man Squads w/ 2 Lascannons) and then if you want more long range support one 10 Man Dev squad w/ 4 Heavy Bolters (again combat squad'd out). Or you could go the cheap route and get a similar amount of firepower out of the cheaper Predator Destructor w/ HB Sponsons.

Troops present the biggest question now. The default choice is Tactical Squads but the only way I see them actually doing anything worthwhile is being 10 Marines strong and using a Rhino to rapid fire something and then absorb a charge with a PF sarge. Problem is Rhinos aren't the hardiest things in the world. The only other choice I can see being really worth it as Troops is Ravenwing squadrons, which require the Master of Ravenwing which isn't the worst HQ you can take.

Problem is that Ravenwing Squads are nice but EXPENSIVE and actually Fragile for what you pay for them. Sure you can turn 1 assault, but then you're throwing 6 or 7 30+ Point Models into assault that will just get eaten by power fists. Granted the ability to drive up, rapid fire bolters and pop off 2-3 melta shots AND then charge in isn't that bad - it's going to be tough to pull off effectively against other powerful builds (especially Nids & some Eldar lists).

So the choice of troops is going to be up to personal preference, but one option is to just min them out completely - two five man squads with Plasma, and move on to other areas of the list.

Elites - BLEH.

Terminators, I just see as way too useless without the second heavy weapon AND the loss of Vet skills. I've been really enjoying my CML + Tank Hunting Termies, but then I have two CML's and Tank Hunters makes them good against almost anything. Even if you look at Terminators as Assault Terminators with a heavy weapon, I just don't see a whole lot of use for em since if they're assault terminators they need a LR or LRC to actually work.

Dreads, I didn't read their entry completely, but I think they went up in costs. A single Drop Podding Dread with Heavy Flamer + Assault Cannon (and Venerable if it's available) is always a nice surprize, but it's a lot more expensive now so it's not the beset choice.

Vet squads - Not bad. I think they all have 2 attacks a pop base and they're 20 pts/model. Not too shabby. If you really wanted something nasty to throw at your opponent these guys may be a good buy - if a little expensive.

Scouts - Um, I don't think they were worth it as a troop choice and I certainly don't think they stand out as particularly useful in Elites. Maybe the Sniper Scouts would prove effective as troop choices, but as elites they're pretty weak. Also the fact that Ravenwing bikes get homers and scout moves means that using these guys as infiltrating teleport homers isn't so great anymore. They may be cheaper, but they also take an elite slot. It may not be so bad since the Elite slots aren't so contested now because the choices are mediocre now.

Fast - Well at least it's useful.

Ravenwing Support squads - Good but expensive and fragile as already stated. Given what they do, I think they actually aren't useful as a Fast attack choice, since the other options for using those fast slots are actually pretty good by comparison. I think these guys are best used as Troops. They should be maxed out in size and take the Tornado as these are best in squads of 1 anyway.

Speeder Squadrons - One Land Speeder Tornado has always been my fast attack unit of choice. I don't like taking multiples of speeders in a squadron if I can help it, so the DA restrictions don't hurt me so much. I think speeders are best in squads of 1 anyway. But since Fast Slots are going to be at a premium unless you take the Master of Ravenwing, it's hard to just blow all 3 fast slots on 3x1 Speeder Tornado.

Assault Marines - Probably the most useful "move forward and kill stuff" unit that the DA have now that terminators got nerfed. You're forced into using the big squad of 10, but 10 Assault Marines pack a punch and can take some hurting. I believe that these guys can be combat squad'd but only one of them would have the PF Sarge so it's kind of crappy to split them up. One or two squads max is what I'd run. These can be pretty good with a min'ed out Tac Squad with a discount Rhino to provide the mobile wall for them to advance. At 35 Points for the mobile wall, that's not so harsh anymore.

HQ

VERY MEDIOCRE.

Losing the ability to completely customize your HQ's pretty much sucks. No more Fury or Fear for the Libby's. The hellfire power is decent, but mind worm is near useless since almost any model you'd want to hurt (Squad Sarges with Fists/CC Weapon of doom) will have a high enough LD to not sweat the LD tes. Hellfire is nice, but you have to get close and that's not the best thing.

Chaplains, I didn't even see if Chaplains can still take Jump Packs. If they can't then I think they're pretty much dead in the water.

A Company Master would be nice for LD10 all around, but I think that you're forced to buy the Iron Halo now which is nice but it puts the cost up.

The only one who really stands out is the guy who gives any squad he joins a 4+ Invulnerable save and the Master of Ravenwing. Both are expensive.

The biggest hit is that you can't take big command squads and you can't take terminator command squads, but the latter isn't so bad because termies are pretty crappy now.

Honestly the best build will probably be Ravenwing squads in troops, Master of Ravenwing (because you have to and he's probably the most useful), 3x1 speeder in fast, and as many Lascannon Dev's as you can fit. Everything else seems fun, but I don't see it being effective for tourny play (not with SAFH & Pod marines, Mech Eldar/Tau and Godzilla running around).

Nice comments, Voodoo Boyz. At least you are looking at the lis objectively instead of blindly dismissing it as crap.

To address Phryxis:



I understand you point, but that is why you would most likely see Ravenwing support for the deathwing as they can tie units up until the Terminators arrive.

Another option is to box the Lysanderwing in, I.E. to surround the bulk of his force and close the cap.

Powerfists are good in assault, but any Terminator Sqaud, no matter how many Assault Cannons it has, is going down to anything that can put a lot of higher Initiative power weapon attacks. Even if the Lysanderwing tries to deny them the charge by charging them, they still have three attacks each standing still. A typical 5-man / 2 Assault Cannon Terminator squad will only kill a statistical 1.46 Terminators (.34 Storm Bolters, .42 rending, .7 Assault Cannon) from shooting. And if the Deathwing player made Lysander go first, all it has to do is drop within 6" next to an opposing terminator squad (not hard with the fast homers they have). They can try and move 6" away, but you have a 12" threat range wherever you land. Say the Daethwing loose two Terminators due to enemy shooting, they still will have an Assault Cannon, killing 1.12, and two lightning claw terminators can kill 1 or two on the charge as well, evening things up a little.

There are a lot of things that have to happen just right on both sides, but a Lysanderwing versus Deathwing will not be an automatic win for Lysander.



Good luck killing 15 Land Speeders, but even so. My other idea has 6 individual squadrons. That is awsome!





But not in the same way, whether the differences are that bad for the Dark Angels will only pan out in actual gameplay. Sometime, I believe, the differences will work in the DA's favor.



They can specilize for less to be sure, but Dark Angels have an extreme amount of flexibility in their units. You choose in deployment if you want to seperate into combat squads. Almost everybody is given a Bolt Pistol, making them more effective on the move than C:SM. Characters can join units before deployment. With the Dark Angels you literally can adapt to any situation or army you find facing.



People said the same thing about multiple Carnifexes when the Tyranid codex was being discussed.

I think you're being a little confident there with respects to Lysanderwing vs. Deathwing. If you throw Bikes at normal Termy squads to pin them in place he's winning out. Your Bike Squads will be lucky to live past their initial assault (if they're 3 Bikes strong) and even with 6 Bikes you're going to be taking a ton of expensive casualties, enough where the Lysander player will win out because each powerfist can easily take out a 30+ Point SM Bike Model.

Bikes vs. Terminators isn't a terrible thing though since you can rapid fire twin linked bolters AND throw in 3 Melta shots (2 Meltaguns, 1 Multi Melta Attack Bike) to thin out the termy squad.

Honestly with the way Terminators work, you're better off with more Bike Squads, they'll put out more firepower and have better assault potential. The mobility is nice too.

The problem is well, they're Space Marine Bikes. How many space marine bikes do you see running around in SM Lists now, let alone in Tournament SM Lists. They're over 30 Points a model and they die just as easily to a Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Plasmagun, or Powerfist. Think how common those guys are. Sure you can turbo boost around for the 3+ invulnerable, but everyone and their mother's codex can put out a ton of S6 or higher shots that can overload your turbo save and every casualty is worth quite a bit of points.

In fact the only thing that really gets my attention for the Ravenwing Squads is that they net you another Tornado, but for how many points for the 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike (with Multi-Melta) and THEN the increased cost of the Tornado. Maybe the fact that I run these squads in my friendly Ultramarine lists but I'm thinking some Special Weapon/PF Sarge Tac Squads in Rhinos may be the better choice. 250 Points nets you 10 Marines, a Power Fist Sarge, a Plasma or Melta Gun, and a Rhino with Extra Armor. With Devastator Lascannon Squads & 3x1 Speeder for support, two of the Above Tac Squads may just work out. It's pretty easy to hide two rhinos in deployment.

Could drop a speeder and take one assault squad or one ravenwing squad (with the speeder added back on) for more support.

I see the Dark Angels needing a lot of PF Squads running around since being all shooty isn't going to work for them anymore, they need assaults to win and it's going to be based around having 9 other T4 3+ Save bodies protecting the Power Fist.

In this respect Vet squads may be pretty decent if I'm remembering right and they all have 2 attacks base.

Codex's Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines are no longer the most powerful armies. Most abundant armies yes. Every codex since 4th edition started has been designed to kill Space Marines. They were the benchmark. Now they are a struggle to win with. Can force a tie in most situations but winning is much harder. In an objective based game Chaos Marines stink. Most armies have the Equivalent of a Land Speeder for contesting/taking objectives. Chaos Marines have to sink points into overcosted Bikes and Raptors. Both of the armies have their strengths but their weaknesses aren't points equivalent. That is why so many armies have such similar builds.

Is this confirmed? If it's true, it's a major upgrade to the Devs. It gives you more efficient ways to use your Heavy Support slots (although I haven't run into too many force org problems with Marines), but more importantly it lets you split fire, effectively giving you free Long Fangs. Now you can fire two of you H Bolters at that squad of Bugs, and if you luck out and kill them all, then you can fire the other two H Bolters elsewhere. It's a nice option to have.



If the Rhino is indeed 35 points, it becomes attractive to run it that way, and just deal with the associated problems. You're giving your Marines considerable mobility, and at only 3.5 points each (averaged out amongst the squad), they're nearly as fast as Assault Marines, but cost significantly less.



I prefer the 10 man Assault Squad, so this isn't a big deal.



Lose Jump Packs and Term Honors, and Chaplains might as well not show up. Litanies of Hate isn't very hateful if you can't get the charge.



Sure, a good idea, but it falls under the "Marines can do it for less" banner. See, you're talking about combined arms, using units in concert, playing smart, etc. That's fine. But he can play smart too. If you have to play smart to make your gameplan work, and all he has to do is say "yes pls" to 39 Assault Cannons in his list, you're fighting uphill.

Again, it's not that DAs can't win, it's that they're clearly inferior to vanilla Marines. Not clearly because they're SO totally awful, but clearly because they're so similar, so nearly the same, but with added goodies like 25 point Power Fists, no Term Honors, arbitrary limits on Tac squad sizes and Assault Cannon counts.



It's actually 1.78.

Assault Cannons (8 shots) : 8 * ((1/6 * 2/3) + (1/2 * 5/6 * 1/6)) = 1.45
Storm Bolters (6 shots) : 6 * (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6) = .33

By comparison, the Lightning Claws attacking back:

Claws (6.66 attacks) : 6.66 * (1/2 * 3/4 * 2/3) = 1.665

And their Fists...

Fists (10 attacks) : 10 * (1/2 * 5/6 * 2/3) = 2.78

Which is, on average, your entire squad.

Let's not forget your last Fist:

Fist (2 attacks) : 2 * (1/2 * 5/6 * 2/3) = .56

For a total of 2.25... Not even enough to put his squad under half strength, so no VPs for you.

There's a reason that people take Assault Cannons. It's because they're an obviously superior weapon.



I really urge you to proxy that before you invest the money in total disappointment. Good luck killing 15 Land Speeders? I don't think I own an army that couldn't do it in one turn, pretty reliably. Land Speeders survive by killing whatever might shoot them. If the enemy can see them on his turn, they die.



No, they don't. You're fooling yourself here. You're saying they're flexible, because they have a couple options that partially mitigate their built in inflexibility. With vanilla Marines, I just take whatever squad I want. With DAs, you HAVE to take them 10 at a time... But you can split them up! Neat! No, not neat. With vanilla Marines I can split them up, plus have double the heavy/special weapons.

I have to disagree with you Donkey.  While armies like Tau, Tyranids and Eldar  definitely got a boost in general from their codexii, I still think that the Marine and CSM codexii have plenty of nasty configurations that make them front runners.  The most obvious is the cheap Las/Plas squad.  No other armies have a unit that is so able to plop itself down in a good position, deal with heavy armor, heavy and light infantry, and survive a lot of fire for one low price.  Marine tanks are still cheap with decent armor and good  BS.  Terminators, Drop pods (and for CSM's Daemons) are incredible force equalizers that obviously can be taken to great effect, and can neutralize any shooty advantages xeno races have against them.  For regular marines, land speeders are the best firepower and objective grabbing light skimmer in the game.  Chaos have some of the best monstrous creatures in the game, and both lists share the best basic trooper in terms of flexibility (necrons probably win on survivability).

In all respect, I think Marines should be the best troops in the game, but in the interest of making the other armies out there playable, the marines should have disadvantages on a tactical army level.

1.  Marines should have to pay the points for shooty prowess.  It sickens me that IG squads pay almost as much for a Las/Plas squad and can't do the job nearly as well.  I think Marines should be able to win firefights on a squad to squad basis, but somehow it seems wrong for a Marine gunline to own an Imperial Guard gunline in a shootout.  The IG gunline has disadvantages that the marines don't have (HQ vulnerability, poor assault capability), but they can't field heavy weapons in significantly larger quantities.  The combat squad rule does a good job of adressing this because it makes tactical marines more than just the mini-devastators that they are now.  DA tacticals can still do that job, but not for the obscenely cheap cost.

2.  From a fluff perspective, the Marines seem to excell at catching the enemy off balance.  The current codex does a good job of this, by giving them the options to pod in, use traits to have a customized fighting style, or maximize a certain troop type.  I like that, but a points cut for ground transports might make rhinos a good choice again.  Hopefully the changes to the DA codex will make them more of a move and shoot army, that is truly tactical.  If it works to some extent, then the relevant changes should be applied to normal marines.

I'm 99% sure it's there on the Devastators getting the combat squads rule, I'll double check tomorrow. I'm sure someone else can confirm it 100%.

The big boost is that it gives the Dark Angels a substitute for Las/Plas squads. You pay more for them, and they come in a smaller number of units, but you get more Lascannons than your average SAFH Marine list.

The problem for the DA's is that their troops choices aren't very efficient anymore and their best units for advancing and doing damage are no where near as good as they are for Vanilla Marines. The Libby is gone as something to be really feared. The Terminators aren't anywhere near as good, the speeders stay the same for the most part if you used 3x1 instead of going crazy with 9 Tornado's.

And FYI, Rhinos are 35 Points with Smoke and Search Lights, Extra Armor is 15 now though.

As far as Marines and Chaos not being the strongest armies: The Top used to be between Craftworld Eldar and Chaos (Iron Warriors). Eldar's BS got toned down in some ways but they're still very near the top of the power curve (skimmer armies in general are). I think Chaos and Marines are still very near the top, it's just that the devil is in the details of how you build your specific list and almost every build has a weakness to another build so a lot will come down to matchups, terrain setups, and the almighty dice.

As it stands right now I'd say that Vanilla Marines, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, and Nids are about on par with each other, with the nod possibly going to Chaos overall. I don't think you can sit there and say that Marines & Chaos aren't near the top though - that's just silly.

On a positive note, one thing I'm very impressed by is the Razorback rule.

You can use it as a taxi to carry each half of the squad as I understand it.

This would seem to offer some useful options for position units and being able to adapt to changing fire lanes over the course of the game.


EDIT: In 3rd edition Dark Angels were too weak before the revamp. Most players used Codex rules. I'm sure Dark Angels will have a White Dwarf bringing them up in power to be competitive with Eldar and Marines by 2009 or so. I'll likely what for the v4.5 edition of the codex before switching from the generic rules.

I am going to objectively playtest the army and then report back my findings. I will test out a standard battle force and a Deathwing army. Both lists will be optimized for winning as much as possible. My feedback will be brutally honest.

- Greenie

Save yourself some trouble, "Pure" Deathwing (only Characters in Terminator Armor, Terminators, Land Raiders, and Dreads) will blow. Just don't bother. The only thing that made them somewhat good was the fact that each squad could take two assault cannons. Now that they're down to one, they're really handicapped without support.

Belial is such a monster though I cannot resist the urge to take him out for a spin.

- Greenie

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 02/05/2007 3:17 PM
More like people need to calm down and absorb what they read. People were howling and crying when the Bugs book came out, moaned how nerfed the Eldar would be when their book came out....but sadly you don't hear from those people anymore.

No were still here, but feel much better after reading the DA codex. 

So did razorbacks get a points decrease? If they did, they may make it into the "very worth it" category for DAs.

I haven't seen the codex but if Razorbacks cost 55 points (-15 points like rhinos) then they would be worth it. You could probably fit 5-6 of them in a 1750 point list (with associated combat squads) and still have room for 2-3 tanks, a some assault marines/land speeders.

as a dark angels player i can say i will adapt

 

my deathwing takes more of a hit from loosing vet skills than anything else(well that and teleport homers) 1 heavy weapon actually hurts me less as i end up with one more than i had before now that i can mix squads.

 

 

my ravenwing on the other hand is dead from the start. unlike vodoo i liked running my speeders and attack bikes in full squads. the only way for me to salvage my ravenwing is to combine it with my 3rd company mechanized forces as to do otherwise would require me to buy a crapton of models and break apart my attack bikes and tornados to make regular bikes and speeders.  after all the time , money and effort i put into making them that is not going to happen.

i'll comment more when i actually get my hands on the new codex.

I plan on writing up a few lists using the Chaos codex to mimic my Dark Angels army using my DA models.

So far I find I can do allmost the same thing for less points, with alot of options still open to me if I want to do more.

The hq is better since I can't put a sos onto hq's I would use, the bike squads are alot better, and I have alot flexablity with the troop and dev squads.

I'll loose speeders... but gain so much more.

Currently the Iron Warriors list looks good for that.

+'s:

Can still take Devastators (Havocs) as Elites.
Can still field Vindicator.

-'s:
Can't field Land Raider Crusade.
Lose ATSKNF. (Though gain MoCU.)

I believe that extra HS for 2 FA slots is optional, so you can still field assault squads and bikes.

I'm on a Traitor-themed team for Adepticon this year, and I'm fielding my DA as Fallen Angels, using the Wordbearer rules. Mostly so that I can have a Fallen Chaplain.

Here is the deal. Ultramarines and trait Chapters will continue to enjoy the ultimate in customization and flexibility. While Black Templars are 'new' they got their codex before the 'new' direction GW is headed now. DA, BA and SW will all be highly restricted codices.

- Greenie

Green Bloater, have you tested the list yet. I am interested in your results. If you are up for a game, PM me.

Mahu

I will let you know when I get the codex and have devised a competitive army list.

If you still want to test it with me you have my number. Though, as discussed, I will field an "average" army for the first few tests.  Instead of a balls to the wall competetive "I will eat your chilren" list that I normally field.

Hey Greenie, I'd like to test some games with you as well. I might as well see how well they do before committing to start another marine army, although I still hold the opinion that DA are going to be pretty cool. Plus, I can get some more playtesting in with my tourney IG list.

Capt K

Sure. Bring your most vicious stuff. It will probably be a couple weeks before I have anything ready.

- Greenie

Modified Turnsignals Comic.

LOL!

- Greenie

If they actually think along those lines...DE and orks are screwed. Unless you really, really like stikk bombas and hellions.

Well I finally got my codex in the mail today and after reading it again it is not so bad after all. Assault squads can drop their jump packs and take a drop pod for free. How cool is that? The veteran squads are also very potent as well as the five man command squads. There is also a banner that confers +1A for the squad to which the standard bearer is attached. So I am starting to see the new DA as a very strong drop pod assault army.

- Greenie

Well I finally got my codex in the mail today and after reading it again it is not so bad after all. Assault squads can drop their jump packs and take a drop pod for free. How cool is that? The veteran squads are also very potent as well as the five man command squads. There is also a banner that confers +1A for the squad to which the standard bearer is attached. So I am starting to see the new DA as a very strong drop pod assault army.

- Greenie

Don't forget you get free bolt pistols now!

Won't anyone think of the bolt pistols!

That sounds cool Greenie. I am really looking at a drop pod force as my next Marine Army. I like the concept behind Dark Angel playstyles and if they are competitve in a Drop Pod force, I am starting Dark Angels for sure. Post your preliminary list and let us see what you are going to do.

I hate to say it but my planned DA drop pod list will most likely be more potent than my high flying BA. Well maybe not quite, but certainly very close.

* EVIL GRIN *

Maybe we can get in some games at Rhubarbs next weekend.

- Greenie

This weekend is busy on both our counts.

The next weekend Sci-Fi is holding a raffle for the new Dark Angels army and Battleforces. $1.00 a ticket or three half full sprues get you a ticket. Games Workshop is trying to support our Terrain beutification project.

So where you want the match to go down is up to you. Sci-Fi does have the advantage of possibly gaining more Dark Angel goodness, if you are interested.

Interesting...A Space Marine army that is powerful with Drop Pods..."yawn"

Greets
Schepp himself

P.s. Sorry, I just had to...

I am really into drop pods.

- Greenie

Look for the new book out this Spring from Simon & Shuster, "Drop Pods: They really are my bag, baby" by Green Bloater.

LOL!

Since everyone is bashing the dark angels I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of what types of DA armies will work?

Pod armies and marine hoard armies seem to be the most obvious as they usually take 10 man squads anyways and the marine hoard now becomes 16 or so scoring units.

Mechanized lists are also a good possibility. Those of us who were playing mechanized already don't have as rough a time adapting. I posted a proposed list several pages back. You lose a little firepower, but you tend to make up for the more expensive stuff with the cost decreases on the transports.

I am going to run three full assault squads in drop pods along with three full veteran squads in drop pods, MotRW on a jetbike, and use biker squadrons for my troop choices.

- Greenie

Agreed on the mechanized lists. It's like free points for every rhino or razorback that you had in your list before without giving up anything significant.

One of the first things I'm planning to do when I get the codex is look closely at the cost/value/capability comparison between DA drop pods (which cost more, right?) and DA rhinos & razors. Drop pods used to be the no-brainer choice because they were so cheap, but if rhinos are cheaper now, it's going to be interesting to look at what kinds of simliar things rhinos allow you to do.

Yea, but rhinos only droped 8 points unless you dont want the extra armor (if you dont take that they droped 23 points).
And who doesnt want extra armor?

At 5 points extra armor is a no brainer but at 15 points it may not be worth it, especially when all you want it for is to move a cheap 5 man squad around or as mobile terrain.

What really went down in points is razorbacks. I don't know how much cheaper the lascannon ones are but the HB is damn cheap (like old rhino cost IIRC). Problem is the afore mentioned removal of the small las/plas squads that really shined with razorbacks. 10 man squads are kinda unwieldy with razorbacks (no combat squads rule in escalation) and 5 man with special weapons are so-so. So you gain some points but lose a good portion of your long range (not to mention the more VP efficent 6 man squad). Maybe lascannon razors would work ok as a replacement depending on the cost.

Why cant you use combat squads in escalation?

They are declared when deployed and depolyed when they come in from reserve.
If they are with a razorback have one squad walk on and the other come in with the razerback.

IIRC, the combat squad rules state that a unit in reserves may not be split. So drop podded units; squads with dedicated transports and assault troopers in escalation, etc cannot split.

eg. In escalation a 10 man unit with a razorback will be in reserves because they have a dedicated transport. They can't be split now so they cannot use the razorback as a transport because they number more then 6. Really fricken wierd but that seems to be what the rules say.

I was wondering what the codex said about that situation; that actually sounds encouraging to me. With a fully-mechanized army, you don't want a couple of little marine squads starting on the table to be taken out piecemeal. You want either everything in reserve, or everything on the table to start.

 

...and I'll agree that I'll gladly give up extra armor for 15 points (or 23).  The stunned result was a problem back in the days of rhino assault and it's still a problem for skimmers.  But with a ground transport, it's not really going to affect much.

Well, i guess thats what I get for not having a codex. Yea, that is a prety odd problem if you give 10 man squads razerbacks.

Gav Thorp has publicly stated that the mention of a Space Marine Redux over at Warseer is merely speculation at best. There will be no rewrite of the Space Marine codex until the 5th edition is released.

- Greenie

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 02/15/2007 12:07 PM

...and I'll agree that I'll gladly give up extra armor for 15 points (or 23).  The stunned result was a problem back in the days of rhino assault and it's still a problem for skimmers.  But with a ground transport, it's not really going to affect much.

Agreed.  Especially since in 4th Stunned doesn't prevent the unit from disembarking like it did in 3rd.

I have been thining of a reversed Mauleed Drop Pod List.

Take the Master of the Deathwind, and Terminators as Troops and take drop pod Veterans as Elites.

Might work.

Sure. One question... WTF is a Mater of the Deathwind?

- Greenie

Its the guy who commands the drop pods (specifically the armorments on the pods)

the lowest ranking master in the legion, just below master of the shotgun.

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/16/2007 9:32 AM
Sure. One question... WTF is a Mater of the Deathwind?

- Greenie

The mentally handicapped redneck cousin of the Master of the Deathwing.

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/16/2007 9:32 AM
Sure. One question... WTF is a Mater of the Deathwind?

- Greenie

Someone who eats breakfast, lunch and dinner at Bobs Bean-o-teria. Master of the Deathwind indeed.

Now that was funny! There should be a special rule for breaking wind during close combat.

- Greenie

Anyone notice the crusader is equal in points to the regular raider?

Only if you don't add extra armor to it...Then it's back to the old cost.

Ahhh yes ok. I have yet to be able to spend more than about 30 minutes with it. So far i see that the scouts are elite, the terminators can deepstrike on the first turn, tac squads have to have 10 guys before they can take heavy weapons,mixed terminator squads again. What else is substantial?

All dreadnaughts can upgrade to venerable class and assault Marines can drop their jump packs and take a drop pod for free. Plus standards that add +1A to every model in the supporting units. There is some other nice stufff as well.

Greenie

I like the tac squad move. Combined with the lower cost of transports, it means fielding a force of six tac squads in razorbacks is now not so bad an idea. The tacs can be plasma-ed or melta-ed, while the Razorback fills in as the missing 'squad heavy weapon'. Should give excellent flexibility, particularly combined with a couple of Preds to loom menacingly and some Assault Marines for counter-assault.

-Adso

To Mahu and Cpt K

I will be at Rhubarbs late Saturday afternoon if you want to get in a game. Send a PM if you are interested.

- Greenie