I got this from a thread started by pompeyladbfp on TWF, thread here:

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=27000

If you go to the link for the new Hall of Heroes tournament rules for 2007 (see below), the last pages tells you that the legal BA list is the one printed in Canadian WDs 13 & 14. Anything this big has got to be in the US and other editions as well, I presume.

http://ca.games-workshop.com/CommunityNew/hoh/HOHdownload/HoH-PlayersGuide07.pdf

Obviously there are no details yet, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they'll include Combat squads. 

Hey Canadians!  How soon do you expect to see WD 13?

March is White Dwarf #10. That doesn't seem like a long wait... yet. Its about time Ca WD has something substantial in it. I've been ranting since the first issue there is way too much adverts and very little content. Not much to impress a veteran gamer, never cared about painting masterclass and I never will. I miss the 'ol Us version.

Whoa, big news. FYI this months Canadian WD is #10

http://ca.games-workshop.com/WhiteDwarf/CAWhiteDwarf.htm

Chaos (Version 3)?

Something seems fishy about this. Why would they use the 3rd printing (version) of the Chaos codex when there is a 4th printing out? Why would they include the Ulthwe Strike Force when it doesn't correctly work with the 4th edition Eldar codex?

For all we know, what gets printed in Ca WD 13 & 14 could be a re-printing of the current codex (for some unknown reason) rather than a new version.

I'm just really skeptical because the move doesn't make any sense--AFAIK they haven't stopped selling the BA codex and they have stopped printing new rules in WD.

In short, count me in as a skeptic. I'll believe this one when I see it.

Actually Yakface retailers can't order blood angel codexs for some time.
In January the eve n discontinued all of the blood angel specific models.

I agree with yak. I saw this rumour over a month ago at warseer and since they dont print rules in WD anymore, totally removing any semblance of usefulness from the mag, I am not seeing this occuring. But it wouldnt be the first time I have been suprised.

Bbut this is compelling evidence to say the least that GW is actually forewarning the public about the printing.

I would love to play in a canadian GT so i can use the new eldar rules and play a ulthwe strike force. MMMMMM cheap BS4 warwalkers and a really good reason to use gaurdians again.

IF it's true I"ll break out my Blood Angels for some action. Unless the rules suck.
I guess they'll be left in the box for a while longer yet.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 03/07/2007 6:34 PM
IF it's true I"ll break out my Blood Angels for some action. Unless the rules suck.
I guess they'll be left in the box for a while longer yet.

Their rules are still pretty bofo right now. I can only imagine a new army list would probably nueter them a bit (although you never do know with GW).

So I think you should get some games in now while you can still do the maximum amount of damage.

 

Foda:  Thanks for the info man. I did not know that.

 

Hey guys,
There is a "get you by" Blood Angel list coming in White Dwarf. I believe it is the June issue. There will be two parts - background in the May issue and the list in the June issue. No new models or anything, just a list to tide people over. I am glad they are doing this, as it doesn't take away from the Studio resources on other Codex books, and gives players something to use!
Jeff H.

Thanks for the update jeff.

Hopefully this is a sign of things to come with GW, as WD is merely a shadow of what it was without any useable content such as trial rules, chapter approved, etc.

This will be the first rules printed in WD in how long? I wouldnt know myself as I stopped buying them shortly after GW UK announced that WD would no longer have such content.

Jeff do you know if this is a reprint of the existing codex list or if it has been modified in any way?

No clue what it will entail. I believe it is a new list, but I don't know.

I don't mean to be a negative nancy here but are things so terrible for Blood Angels players that they must wait a while for their new army book to be released so they get a new set of rules to use while waiting?

Why isn't something like this happening for the Orks instead, who are in need a rules update more than most anyone else? I can understand it if they're pulling their dex from print, but it's not like these WD will be around in stores for people to purchase after the month they come out, so what's the deal?

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 03/08/2007 10:25 AM
I don't mean to be a negative nancy here but are things so terrible for Blood Angels players that they must wait a while for their new army book to be released so they get a new set of rules to use while waiting?

Why isn't something like this happening for the Orks instead, who are in need a rules update more than most anyone else? I can understand it if they're pulling their dex from print, but it's not like these WD will be around in stores for people to purchase after the month they come out, so what's the deal?

possibly because orks are closer on the release schedule than blood angels are. meaning, the space vampires still have quite some time to see anything and the "revision" is a quick fix, rather than a full revamp. A revamp the orks need and are getting..

negative nancys just need to quit sipping so much "no love" tea and just enjoy the company for a bit.. otherwise, your tears will make the tea very bitter.. 

Because Blood Angels don't need to be remade from the ground up, nor do they need new kits. Hell this is good news, becuase it means chaos will likely be the only MEQ for the next several years (which is a good thing).

Yes orks need a revamp, I'm with you there, but not a little blurb in a white dwarf and not without new models. Personally, I think there'd be alot more whining from ork players if it was orks getting rules in WD. They deserve a real codex and new models, not a little update and no new models.


The dex has been pulled from print months ago. Also, the rules are apparently going to be posted on the web too (probably a few months after the WD).

Yes, but as far as I was aware the BA were still going to get their own dex eventually.

I think it's probably because the orks got their stopgap as the Klans lists, albeit a long time ago, and their book is on the horizon, unlike the BA.

Eventually yes, but I think consensus is that Blood Angels need a little fixing to make them work properly, fixing that is simple to do most likely and can be done by people not working on the orks and chaos. I would imagine they are picking things that they can quickly fix for now without taking away from everything else.

Man do I hope they nerf Death Company!!!!!!!

So does this end the ban on official rules changes in WD? It seems like it.

If the new list shuts up the complainers I'm all for it. But I doubt it will. Even if it follows the pattern of the current codexs and is weaker than the CSM. They will continue to complain.

My guess would be that the list is ready, but they don't have any models to release with it. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels rules wise don't really need their own codexs. Both could have been covered by a page of rules in the CSM each. Either way I'll be happy to have a new list.

I like this actually. Many may complain, but atleast they will get feedback regardng how the list plays before they make a dex.

if they did that with the DA, I am sure alot of DW players wouldnt feel so disenfranchised about that particular army schism.

Even if the codex that GW makes doesnt go their way, atleast they had their say regarding the issue, unlike other armies before it. This could turn out to be a very good idea.

I'm happy that they're doing it.
I hope that they do something in terms of making Death Company not "free".
It's the thing that is the most controvercial.
I love my Space Vampires to bits but it's hard to play to win when there area large number of people who figure it's just 'cause of the "free" DC that you stomped them.
It cheapens hard fought victorys and I almost feel guilty for playing them at all.
I want something I can play with that doesn't get me dirty looks.

Hoooaaa man no way your going to fit the DA codex into a page in the smc. It a bunch of changes. Heck its no where near the same. Besides if you favorite codex ended up as a page in anothers book you would not be happy.
New fluff, new rules,new style of play. No way thats going into a page.

Death company FREE? come now the choices for DC come from terminators, and any other squad. The chaplain is very expensive, they are very random as to how much you get and thus make play harder, and last  the fact that BA have a good chance of not shooting do to blood rage.

The fact there a cc oriented army with bolters???

And lets not forget how small a BA army is.

Did i mention that with DC it makes it very easy to not have a scoring unit fast.  

Death company is paid for in points and in MANY other ways.

 

 

I know how you feel. I stopped playing Blood Angels because I couldn't handle all of the flack I was recieving for it. It was my first time being publically shamed. Hell at the time I didn't even play competitively and I didn't want to be cheesey. So I quit BAs and they finally left me alone.

I have regreted it ever since. Only recently have I gotten back into the army and I won't give it up again. If someone doesn't like my army they can go get bent.

Dark Angels feel bad about themselves and BAs have bad tempers, Otherwise they're just Space Marines. The differences could easily be covered in a page of rules. And it wouldn't bother me if I didn't get my own book. I feel that having so many SM codexs is part of what's wrong with 40k. Having one SM book for all of them would mean that we would be two alien codexs ahead right now.

Its genius to take the number one selling army in the game and break it up that way....Look at it from a money standpoint, GW sure does.
I really like the fact that SOOOO many people that play marines now have a very wide selection to choose from. And not one of them plays the same. Its almost like haveing differant races there so differant now.

Dont take the fluff and fun out of someone elses pot of gold man.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 03/08/2007 2:30 PM
I want something I can play with that doesn't get me dirty looks.

Amen.  I'm really tired of it.

You guys want people not to give you dirty looks when you play BA? Thats lame. I play Ba once in a while and if somebody gave me a dirty look I would tell them to kiss my @A::S: and if they donmt like it cos its so "unbalanced" go buy a BA army for themselves.

As for the rumours We will see. When it does not happen I will sit back an laugh as I dont think they publish rules in WD anymore.

It is supposed to be a new list.
Having had my old BA Codex pull a vanishing act, I emailed the guys at GWCanada and asked if I should track down a BA Codex, or if I would have to haul around a couple of WD's.
The response told me to hold off buying the dex, and that yes- I would have to carry around the WD's for a while.
(I had kinda ranted about having to carry around numerous issues during 3rd edition)

No idea what changes may have been made, but (afaic) it's confirmed that aren't a reprint of the older dex.

Posted By Hexx on 03/08/2007 4:56 PM

The response told me to hold off buying the dex, and that yes- I would have to carry around the WD's for a while.
(I had kinda ranted about having to carry around numerous issues during 3rd edition)

No idea what changes may have been made, but (afaic) it's confirmed that aren't a reprint of the older dex.

Well, if it's split fluff and rules cleanly between the two issues you'd only have to carry around the issue with the army list/rules.

 

 

 

Which is why I'm expecting it'll be something like an armoury and rules in one issue, and the army list itself in another.
Sperating the fluff and rules just sounds to easy..

Posted By 5thelement on 03/08/2007 3:05 PM
Its genius to take the number one selling army in the game and break it up that way....Look at it from a money standpoint, GW sure does.
I really like the fact that SOOOO many people that play marines now have a very wide selection to choose from. And not one of them plays the same. Its almost like haveing differant races there so differant now.

Dont take the fluff and fun out of someone elses pot of gold man.

Yeah, because there is such a huge difference between one marine chapter and another, right?

Dont get me wrong, good for GW to ride the money mule until it dies a horrible death, but it inst neccessary to have umpteen marine dex's.

I am sure they can fit all the fluff for various chapters within 80+ pages of dex. The armies arent that complicated.

Toughness 4? Check
 WS 4? Check
BS 4? Check
Armor save 3+? Check
etc

Judging by looking at my DA codex, they could have easily compressed the rules and fluff into less than 10 pages. You dont need two seperate entries detailing what a certain unit is, sorry. Its a waste of space and wood pulp, frankly.

Says you. Every time a book is released with just rules; the masses cry foul about fluff.

Every time a book is released light on rules, the gamers cry foul about uniqueness and playabiilty and competitive edge.

Cut them some slack. They release stuff that tries to appeal to everyone, but of course will always hack off someone.

Despite popular opinion, the 1ntern37 is not the majority. But man are they vocal.

Wow you BA guys are sensitive fragile flowers aren't you...

Next up: Codex Emo Marines.

Posted By Hexx on 03/08/2007 4:56 PM
It is supposed to be a new list.
Having had my old BA Codex pull a vanishing act, I emailed the guys at GWCanada and asked if I should track down a BA Codex, or if I would have to haul around a couple of WD's.
The response told me to hold off buying the dex, and that yes- I would have to carry around the WD's for a while.
(I had kinda ranted about having to carry around numerous issues during 3rd edition)

No idea what changes may have been made, but (afaic) it's confirmed that aren't a reprint of the older dex.

Just make a photocopy or scan for personal use only. Problem solved.

 

Posted By jfrazell on 03/09/2007 6:15 AM

Wow you BA guys are sensitive fragile flowers aren't you...

Nah, just not cynical gamers who read evil intent into everything....

Posted By Achilles on 03/09/2007 6:27 AM

 

Posted By jfrazell on 03/09/2007 6:15 AM

Wow you BA guys are sensitive fragile flowers aren't you...

Nah, just not cynical gamers who read evil intent into everything....

I can respect that.

Then sadly you and I seem to be in the Minority....

Posted By Hellfury on 03/07/2007 4:14 PM
since they dont print rules in WD anymore, totally removing any semblance of usefulness from the mag,

And there's no coincidence that my WD collection runs from 211 until recently, completely uninterrupted.  I just had to stop buying it when I realised I was paying $10 for a monthly catalogue 

Hi, I'm Big O and I played BA's at one time. *clap, clap*

I can admit, they are overpowered.




First step is admitting you have a problem.

oh yes BA are so damn overpowering. The UKGT thread clearly shows that BA angels and Assault cannon weild Marines are winning everything. Oh wait, they are not. hmmm that's strange. I guess some people just won't be happy until every red marine is dead and unplayable.

Personally I hope GW really screw orks over, make them the even crappier than they are now. See it's not so nice when someone wishes ill on your army.

Get back to me with the whining when BA are as powerful as Godzilla Nids.

Well I play chaos, and have played IW in the past, so I'm used to people wishing ill on my army...

No need to take it personally.

Blood Angels have been GT winners in the US in 4th edition, and are certainly a strong army. I wouldn?t call them OMFG broken, but the Chaplain w/DC is underpriced, and subject to serious abuses with a list maximized to beef up that DC (lots of tacs and scouts with naked vet sgts).

Other BA players have little bit more perspective.

Wishing ill on Orks? For shame.

The worst part is when they see your army and say well yours looks fine. But they still continue to whine and recount every crime committed against them by a Blood Angels player. Real and imagined.

In 3rd edition I never had a problem with them. Raging out of their transports was a nice balance to their extra-speedy Rhino rush. When GW eventually FAQed that so that troops in Rhinos didn?t jump out, was when they first seemed a little over the top to me. I did meet a number of BA players before that who misplayed the rule, and they certainly made a bad impression for everyone else.

I hate godzilla Nids, I cant beet them ever. when It comes to BA I can beet them quite esily, (that from playing against my brothers BA all the way from 2nd to 4th edition)

See we keep the same armies from when we started 14 years ago up unitill now, NOT cos they are Pwoerfull but we like the colour red and grey (for SW~) an we like the fluff.

Posted By jfrazell on 03/09/2007 6:15 AM

Wow you BA guys are sensitive fragile flowers aren't you...

More like an old war wound that flares up and is annoying.

I like BA, in fact it would be the one chapter I would play by the book. (i.e paint like GW paints them, the whole nine yards)

The sad thing is, the only things that keep me from starting one, is:

1. My own conscience. I know in my heart that the chappy /DC combo is underpriced. hats of to BA players who use termies, because I have never once, not one single time, have I ever seen BA termies fielded.

2. what others would say when I bring them to the table. There is a stigma that is there (rightfully so in some cases) for BA.

No thanks. I dropped an army in third ed because of that crap. BT were just as abusable as BA if not more so. I had to drop them like a bad heroin habit because everyone simply refused to play me when I fielded that army.

Of course, they whined like little girls when I put the whoop down on them using Chapter approved Sisters lists and DE, but thats another story....

What just exactly is overpowered about BA now that Rhino Rush is dead?

- Greenie

Lets see, I dont think the BA are overpowered as a whole, but the death company needs to be seriously neutered. Though I do have to say that getting furious charge for free is a bit overpowered for the army as a whole, but not a subject for me to call the army cheesy by any means.

Death Company get the following for free:

• Furious charge
• Jumpacks or rhino (jumpacks being the obvious choice)
  
• Fearless
• ignore normal wounds on a 4+

Now I realize that chaplains do cost more than a normal chaplain, but they also get 4 to 6 DC included in that cost. That price increase would be overcosted by 20 points if those DC were normal marines, but they are not.

I suppose people could argue that the freebies that DC get are included in the increased price of the chaplain, but seriously, do you really think that 20-50 points for that units abilities are comensurate with balance?

While DC do not have access to heavy weapons, I would hardly call that a drawback. They get 5 initiative and 5 strength on the charge, able to reroll to hit rolls, ignore normal wounds on a 4+, moving 12" a turn, ignore morale checks all for the price of a normal marine.

If those marines that were removed from the squads made them non scoring (assuming a lucky roll of a few 6's in a squad) then it might not be so bad. But trying to get VP from a very tough unit to take out being only 15 points per DC marine is a kick in the nuts when tallying victory point totals.

The DC is abused by people taking units expecting it to be fodder for the rage. I think if people were to take BA termies (so rare I have never seen such) or other units making the loss of a model to the DC a hard option, then it would be more balanced as there is some negative to the glaring bonuses.

I dont think it would be very hard to make BA a more balanced army while still making them very flavorful. I just hope they dont get nerfed as much as the DA did. If that were to happen, taking a very nearly balanced list and making it crippled (in the DA's case), I could expect BA to be nearly umnplayable if DA are to be used as any example.

Here is my most typical list when I field BA (abbreviated):

Chaplain w. jump pack + DC

Sanguinary High Priest w. jump pack + HG (terminator honors & squad characters)

7 tactical Marines w. meltagun + veteran sergeant w. powerfist in drop pod

7 tactical Marines w. plasma gun + veteran sergeant w. powerfist in drop pod

5 scouts w. 4x bolters + HB + veteran sergeant w. teleport homer & sniper rifle

Furiso in drop pod

Venerable in drop pod

6x terminators w. assault cannon

The thing that people always fail to mention when complaining about DC is that their size is randomly determined. I have had far more games with 4 - 6 DC Marines in comparsion to the 11+ DC Marines I always hear people crying about. In fact I was in a tournament where twice three of my terminators went to the DC. my list is based on the restrictions that were presented for Flesh Tearers and for the most part I have stuck with it. Sure you can field lots of min las/plas squads with naked veteran sergeants but not everyone that plays BA does so.

Are DC underpriced for what you get?

jump pack (no one uses the free Rhino amymore)
terminator honors
Feel No Pain
Furious Charge

I reckon they are and this will be addressed in the new 4th edition codex. Until then I will enjoy playing my BA and hopefully so afterwards. Anyone that played an army like Rhino Rushing Templars and says this army is broken is not telling the whole story in my opinion.

- Greenie

Posted By 5thelement on 03/08/2007 2:51 PM

Death company is paid for in points and in MANY other ways..

No, it isnt. Its a free unit with jumppacks. 3 plus a d3 before rolling, You either have to hit with krak missles or lascannons to make them stay down, or powerweapons in combat.

Sorry, but their not. Not even close.

Posted By Green Bloater on 03/18/2007 1:23 PM
Anyone that played an army like Rhino Rushing Templars and says this army is broken is not telling the whole story in my opinion.

- Greenie

I fail to see how that remark has anything to do with the price of beans in peru, but likewise, I feel the same way about BA players who defend BA as an unbroken army is not telling the whole story either.

*shrug*

But I guess its just the majority of BA players who feel the army itself is perfectly fine and doesnt need any changes.

Posted By beef on 03/09/2007 3:01 PM
I hate godzilla Nids, I cant beet them ever. when It comes to BA I can beet them quite esily, (that from playing against my brothers BA all the way from 2nd to 4th edition)

Stop throwing vegtables at them and you stand a chance.....

Broken armies list:

Godzilla Nidz
Rhino Rush SW, BA, BT, Khorne Berzerkers
Deamon bomb Undivided
Feral Orks
Mech Tau/Eldar
Armored Company
min/max SAFH IW
min/max SM

Every major army out there is overpowered according to someone or aonther, Hell Orks and DE are overpowered in my opinion.

40k is overpowered, Lets not play anymore.

Cmon guys grow up, Every army at one stage or another has been overpowered and usually when it gets redone they iron out some of the problems, when was BA released? way back in 3rd so compared to the newer stuff its overpowered. But put it back in its original setting when SW and templars and Khorne could all rhino rush Ba's were not that overpowered.

Posted By Green Bloater on 03/18/2007 2:20 PM
Broken armies list:

Godzilla Nidz
Rhino Rush SW, BA, BT, Khorne Berzerkers
Deamon bomb Undivided
Feral Orks
Mech Tau/Eldar
Armored Company
min/max SAFH IW
min/max SM

...I wouldn't even consider half of those lists broken

Care to explain how Mechanized Marines is overpowered? (lol?)

Or mech Tau, or Armored Company, or Feral Orks (Actually I think thats the first time I have EVER seen someone say any ork list is overpowered) Are they solid lists?  Yes.  Overpowered?  Hardly.

Most of the rest of those only have one or two items/units/equipment that even make it argueable that they are overpowered.  (Holofields spring readily to mind)

In fact, the only 2 lists on there that I would put down as overpowered is Godzilla Nids and IW.  (And I think the IW one is questionable)

Yeqah but you are in the minority here as alot of people think its overpowered. I agree that they are not If you are a good player you can beet them.

I always heard that Iron warriors were overpowered. At the tournies I have played at the guy who won with his Iron warriors I played earlier and got a draw against him. I always heard they were so overpowered that that used to meen even before I played them I had decided I was going to lose. When I got that out of my head I got a draw agaisnt a really good player. Not to mention lots of wins against rubbish IW players.

All I have to do now is get over my fear of zilla Nids

"Most of the rest of those only have one or two items/units/equipment that even make it argueable that they are overpowered."

Well that is what I was trying to say. If the DC is the only broken unit that BA have and it goes against power gaming tactica to field terminators with this army then really how hard is it to beat one unit?

- Greenie

Its not that hard if you know how to play well. I can beat them as I have played against my brother DC since 3rd edition, Hell Ba were tougher then with rhino rush as you also had assualt squads being cheaper to put in Rhino's than with jump packs and he had the las/plas razorbacks to.

People who complain have just not figured out how to beat them or worse have listened to other people viewpoints on "balance" "chease" "overpowered" and go into the game thinking "Oh no DC, I am going to lose" then they play like crap thinking that its a forgone conclusion they will lose.

IW have the most firepower in the game.  This will always make them a topic when discussing what is overpowered. (who remembers the hype around Tau when they first came out in 3rd?  Course, unlike Tau, IW are not pushovers) 

I find it difficult to classify them as overpowered simply because they do nothing aburd or uncounterable in nature.  (unlike say like dropping 30 wyches in your lines, with no possible chance of being shot first)  Additionally, most of the other firepower based lists (like SAFH marines) still compete well with IW because of other advantages. (In this case, model count) The CC lists do alright as well, provided the board has a decent amount of terrain. 

Actually, if you notice the recent lists on dakka, you can tell IW have moved to the back of peoples minds. (6 months ago, dakka was harping on how powerful pods/mech tau/IW were, now its zilla nids/mech eldar) The groundpounder Eldar lists are a great example of this.  People are taking wraithlords over warwalkers, and mixed dire avengers/guardians instead of pure guardians and still expect to outshoot firepower armies. 

That being said, IW are easily the most powerful chaos list.  The list has a solid win percentage, and will easily crush any list not prepared for them.  This deserves to make them a item of continued debate about their power level.  (and really any balance discussions should involve lists that carry the most vehicles/firepower/CC ability.)

The top BA army at UKGT was 20th. You aren't seeing every cheese monkey player taking BA to the GT because they are not as overpowering as the top lists e.i Godzilla, IW, Demon Bomb and Mech Eldar.

Take all comer Marines generally suck compared to the above lists, BA are only slightly better. BA being overpowering is not being proven out by their results at major competitions.

Are Godzilla 'Nids really considered 'over-powered'? I thought they were the only viable way to field 'Nids with the new 'Dex.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 03/18/2007 10:49 PM

Are Godzilla 'Nids really considered 'over-powered'? I thought they were the only viable way to field 'Nids with the new 'Dex.

BYE

No, what I've seen work well is warriors and gaunts flooding the table as well....

Some people say Zilla Nidz are overpowered. I have not played against them enough to comment on them from experience.

- Greenie

Posted By Green Bloater on 03/19/2007 7:16 AM
Some people say Zilla Nidz are overpowered. I have not played against them enough to comment on them from experience.

- Greenie

Stop by Sci-Fi sometimes, we now have two Godzilla Nids players (one uses the Choir and a shooty Tyrant, the other perfers the straight 6 Carnifexs and a CC Tyrant).

We had a Godzilla Nid team in our recent team tournament, and they almost walked away with full Battle Points through-out the whole tournament.Even then, they where still only 4 points away from the overall, and won best tactitian (most battle points). My team won the Over-all, but we gots 3 wins, but not full battle points, and essentially we where sure that they would walk away with the overall dispite the few points down they where in the last round. Going back over the numbers, they where only 4 points shy of the overall (factoring soft scores, etc.)

Needless to say, hands down the Godzilla Nids is the most competitve army availible. I have yet to see it loose (though I have drawn against them twice with a pretty competitve Chaos Army).

Rumors on the upcoming changes.

Blood Angels death company won't have power weapons or the sort aymore..
instead, they get rending....

And the tac squads will be split similar to the combat squads of DA.

Also Furious charge will be gone...now anyone with in 12" of the High Priest gets FC...

Rhinos come with overcharged engines...

Those sound good to me!

- Greenie

Carmachu, What is your source?

I don't have any problems with any of those changes, but I will miss furious charge. What's the point of over charged engines if we don't have FC anymore?

Just have to put them near the priest.

Interesting changes. I think I like em so far.

Already much better than anything DA got IMO.

- Greenie

I think its a little early to feel superior to the DA. The WD list could end up anywhere on the power scale and I'm sure that rending DC will cause some whining.

Posted By Crimson Devil on 03/19/2007 10:05 AM
What's the point of over charged engines if we don't have FC anymore?

Well, since you couldn't get assault the same turn you get out, FC is moot there.  As for the benefits:  Greater ability to grab an objective at the 11th hour, or zip between points of cover. 

What I hope is they get rid of the brutally slowed rule of the rhino blowing up on snake eyes.  I don't mind the chance of breaking down, but blowing up?  Please.  The chapter has techmarines after all.

No pw/pf in the DC keep the veterans alive so I like that.  I also like giving the SHP more flavor.

Any idea of when this will hit the US shelves?

If you block line of sightwith a rhino like you would with a drop pod it works okay. I was thinking more about the need to appproach the enemy at all. If we lose FC why not stand back and shoot?

Whats the source??

A lot of BA do play stand and shoot armies... lots of min/max squads with naked veteran sergeants... you know where I am going.

- Greenie

I guess I play differently.

Me too.

- Greenie

I hope they don't take away Furious Charge from everybody and leave the running ahead penalty of Black Rage. That doesn't seem fair. It never seemed totally balanced that everyone always had free Furious Charge in exchange for lurching ahead in one out of six rounds. But to take away the benefit and leave the penalty isn't fair either. Not that charging ahead is a pure penalty, there are many times where it's a good thing, but it's chaotic and can easily toss a monkeywrench into your plans.

Sure is. That is why 'zerks suck.

Which always got me- compare BAs to Khorne WEs. 'Zerkers are well nigh useless (charge that vehicle RARRR!) and more expensive than DC. They actually have to pay for Vet Skills.

I really don't get why they don't just move DC to an Elite choice or retinue. Pick how many guys go emo. Then pay for them. No random rolling stupidity.(Roughly) Balance the unit cost with their usefulness and BLAM! problem solved. And give assault armies assault ramp rhinos. That way they can have expensive coffins to shoot forwad in :-)

BR is a real mixed bag. It's great for your assaulters and scouts; basically anyone who wants to get into HTH. Although with no Furious Charge, then assaulting will be less effective than before. It's still better than the Khorne Bezerkers as the BA must move toward the enemy, but not the closest one.  They just have to be closer to the enemy than they were at the start of the turn.

However for shooting it's miserable as your support fire goes crazy, and your vehicles lurch forward into difficult terrain sometimes immobilizing themselves.

Taking FC away opens up another question: will BA be able to buy other skills for units that could take them in the codex? Tank Hunters? Infiltrate? Etc... Could they double up if those units got close to the SHP? Interesting...

I hope that DC is still randomly determined with a cap limit depending on how many points you are playing. It fits the fluff well but they could change that.

- Greenie

The question of overpowering isnt the skills they BAs get, its the FREE POINTS in every list they get. In an 1850 point BA list currently, you get around 300 points of free skills.

50 Marines with FC would cost 150 points for anyone else. Noone can even argue this at all.

Then there is the DC, of course they arent all FREE marines, but the ones you get have the Feel No Pain rule, and roughly half of them will be free.

Consider the free jump packs as well, and you have a ton of free points in the BA army list.


I dont think they are overpowered, but they should pay for their skills. When that happens, BA players will be saddened, and the rest of us will figure they got whats been coming to them for a while now.


Clay

Were you responding to my post? If so you missed the point. I don't mind paying for the skills, I want to make sure I can take the full range of skills that they couldn't before- thank hunter, counter charge, et.

Posted By jmurph on 03/19/2007 4:10 PM
Sure is. That is why 'zerks suck.

word.

Posted By Maximillion1 on 03/08/2007 1:08 PM
Man do I hope they nerf Death Company!!!!!!!

The Death Company is a darling of GW.  Nerfing the Death Company would be a genuine surprise.  Besides, the BA players would riot.

<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="afpostbody" colspan="2"> Of course, they whined like little girls when I put the whoop down on them using Chapter approved Sisters lists and DE, but thats another story....</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="afpostattach" colspan="2"> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Talk about a backhanded compliment... ")

Posted By Primarch on 03/19/2007 6:09 PM
The question of overpowering isnt the skills they BAs get, its the FREE POINTS in every list they get. In an 1850 point BA list currently, you get around 300 points of free skills.

50 Marines with FC would cost 150 points for anyone else. Noone can even argue this at all.

Then there is the DC, of course they arent all FREE marines, but the ones you get have the Feel No Pain rule, and roughly half of them will be free.

Consider the free jump packs as well, and you have a ton of free points in the BA army list.


I dont think they are overpowered, but they should pay for their skills. When that happens, BA players will be saddened, and the rest of us will figure they got whats been coming to them for a while now.


Clay

I have no problem with paying more for FC or the DC. I don't think most BA players will. Technically we do pay for all of the DC marines, we just get them really cheap. 110 points for the first 3 to 6 and then all of the others are paid for with normal marines. Which is why you won't see a lot of the expensive marine choices, but you will see a lot of scouts. And they count as casualties for their original units. So its possible to give up a lot of victory points by having a large Death Company. The Jump packs or rhino are free.

When they nerf us Primarch, you can do your little victory dance and then go bother someone else.

"...you get around 300 points of free skills."

Sorry but that is total bullsh&t and you know it. BA suffer from the Black Rage which is a definite drawback. I finally had to stop using Devs because they would always seem to rage at the worst possible moment for me.

- Greenie

Since the thread has turned into a discussion on the Death Company, lets look at it:

Pros
1. Furious Charge
2. Feel no Pain
3. Free Jump Pack or Rhino
4. 3-6 Cost 150 pts with Chaplain, rest are "free"
5. Killing unit gives opposing player 0 vp
6. Fearless

Cons
1. Are randomly choosen from your all of your marine and scout units and count as causalties for that unit before the game even starts.
2. Are a non scoring unit, they cannot hold objectives
3. The more DC you have the less troops you have in your scoring units
4. If they have no chaplain, thy must move toward the nearest enemy unit
5. Fearless (yes it is also a pro but getting into CC with a ton of guants and losing really really sucks)

And on to Blood Angels in general: Yup they get Furious Charge, they also have blood rage, which means they get to charge forward d6 at the your oppenant on a roll of 6. Sometimes this is great, but when you want to stand and shoot the IG , orks, whoever that are moving toward you instead of moving toward them and allowing them to charge you, well it really sucks.

So are BA and DC the bain of all excistance, having chewed them up with tau and having been chewed up by Nids and Orks, I would have to say no. Have I used them effectively, yes. But what i don't understand is the viseral hatred people have for them.

I can't wait for GW to start talking about rewriting the Necron Codex...now that will be some fun reading on the discussion boards.

Reclusiarch plus Death Company starts at 195 points then add in gear.

Ya they definatly dont get them FREE. The black rage is more than enough. But than toss in your tore up units that can no longer hold anything, and also the charging of vehicles and other things that they can do no damage too.

Posted By Moopy on 03/19/2007 6:27 PM
Were you responding to my post? If so you missed the point. I don't mind paying for the skills, I want to make sure I can take the full range of skills that they couldn't before- thank hunter, counter charge, et.

Thats not going to happen so you might as well get used to  it now.  

Posted By jmurph on 03/19/2007 4:10 PM
Sure is. That is why 'zerks suck.

Which always got me- compare BAs to Khorne WEs. 'Zerkers are well nigh useless (charge that vehicle RARRR!) and more expensive than DC. They actually have to pay for Vet Skills.

I really don't get why they don't just move DC to an Elite choice or retinue. Pick how many guys go emo. Then pay for them. No random rolling stupidity.(Roughly) Balance the unit cost with their usefulness and BLAM! problem solved. And give assault armies assault ramp rhinos. That way they can have expensive coffins to shoot forwad in :-)

definatly  not fluffy. The black rage comes upon BA at random so it makes sense to keep it random.

And also the zerkers are hard core. Take a melta bomb in the unit. On occasion there a pain but than they destroy anything in cc and its all good.

This is turning into a good discussion.

- Greenie

Posted By 5thelement on 03/20/2007 2:02 PM

Posted By Moopy on 03/19/2007 6:27 PM
Were you responding to my post? If so you missed the point. I don't mind paying for the skills, I want to make sure I can take the full range of skills that they couldn't before- thank hunter, counter charge, et.

Thats not going to happen so you might as well get used to  it now.  

Right.  So now that my Veteran Marines aren't forced to take FC, they can't take anything?  Brutally slowed logic. Looking at my codex for skills (for once since it never mattered before), looks like my options are Tank Hunter, Infiltrate and FC.  To say I couldn't take anything?  Stupidity.  Go back to B&C.

RE: Black Rage.

I think Black Rage should remain, and any models suffering from the rage will get the benfit of Furious Charge for that turn. You balance out the detriment with a benefit.

As for Death Company, it's most fair to either pay per model or have some system that can make you lose specialist models from your units on occasion. It's fine when some random scout goes nuts and paints his armor black. What if your lascannon gunner does it? Not so abusable when it loses you a marine worth 30 points and screws up your whole unit, is it?

Another option would be to keep them randomly generated, have the player pay for each random D3 roll determining the DC's size (maybe each roll is an elite slot?).

Why am I even bothering to write this? The list has probably been written already.

what im saying MOOPY is that when the BA codex comes your not going to be makeing any choices. SO get used to it. You wont be taking ANYTHING. by the way im not from b&c.

Again, crazy talk.

You can't have more than one skill. That used to stop BA from taking anything since they already had one.
Now, rumor has it BA won't be forced to have FC. So, now my terminators should be able to take FC or TH for +3 pts each. My Vets should have the choice TH, INF, or FC.  Dreads would also get a skill choice.

There's nothing to back up your empty claim of, "They get nothing". So I won't be "getting used to" a stupid idea.

Sorry, I guess it was EoT not B&C. My bad.

Posted By Mr. X on 03/20/2007 2:20 PM
RE: Black Rage.

I think Black Rage should remain, and any models suffering from the rage will get the benfit of Furious Charge for that turn. You balance out the detriment with a benefit.

I like this idea. 

As far as the WD list goes I'm expecting less power and options over all. Given what happened to the DAs and BTs it seems to be GW's current frame of mind. But don't worry we'll still be hated by a few people, I've seen people still get worked up over the 2nd ed. Space wolves.  

There is a precedent for Moopy's idea. In the chaos codex, when a traitor legion has a specific skill that is their signature skill, like Alphas with infiltrate, it doesn't count against their maximum skills. It would make sense if the same were true with BA's and Furious Charge.

Tell that to the Dark Angels. Their vets and dreads don't have vet skills. Instead they get an extra base attack, some weapon options and are not subject to the 5/10 rule. Could be what happens to BA, especiayl if they get the same treatment as DA.

In regards to the discussion at hand.

I like the idea of making the DC a mandatory elites choice which MUST be taken and you pay X points (Lets say,..200) for D3+2 and then an additional, say, 100 points for another D3 roll, so if you wanted to pay the minimum amount of points required, you'd spend 200 points on anywhere from 3 to 5 jump pack or rhino equipped, fearless, Furious Charge, feel no pain marines. If you have four or more death company marines, one may be upgraded to carry a power weapon or power fist at +15 or +25 points respectively. If you wanted to spend 300 points, you have the potential for anywhere from four to eight DC marines.

Now that should shut the people who complain about DC being 'free' up.

Regarding pulling them from other units, You roll a D6 per infantry squad using the following table. Any models removed in this way are considered casualties.

Tactical squads, BA Scout/Scout Squads, Devastator squads, Assault Squads: Roll one dice for each unit, on a 4 or 5 any non-sergeant model goes to the Death Company, on a 6, the Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant MUST go to the death company and you must reroll for the squad. If a second six is rolled, the owning Blood Angels player may remove the model of his choice from the squad and must roll again. Repeat this process until a 6 is not rolled. Any model that is inducted into the Death Company loses any wargear he may have been equipped with and is armed with the standard Death Company wargear instead. These models are considered casualties for the purposes of scoring and unit strength.

Veteran Squads, Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Honor Guard, and Veteran Assault Squads: Veterans of hundreds of campaigns, these marines have long resisted the pull of the red thirst, and have tempered themselves against the bane of the Black Rage. Roll one dice for each unit, on a roll of 5 or 6, one model of the owning Blood Angels players choice must go to the death company. If a six is rolled the Blood Angels player must reroll for the squad once. If a second six is rolled, a second model of the owning Blood Angel players choice is removed from the squad, and no more rerolls are made. Any model that is inducted into the Death Company loses any wargear he may have been equipped with and is armed with the standard death company wargear instead. These models are considered casualties for the purposes of scoring and unit strength.

Does that sound like a reasonable set of rules? Yes? No? Maybe?

Discuss.

-Red__Thirst-

Red THirst,

Alot of BA players are making suggestions similar to yours with respect to how DC are generated from squads.

I'd add one thing: To limit abuse on the part of BA players, and the make the number of DC generated a lower percentage of the chapter (it should be rare, otherwise, BA woudn't have a chapter left standing), I would limit rolls to maximum sized squads only.

Second thing I'd do is allow a maximum of one retinue, regardless of the number of chaplains taken.

BA are my primary army, and I field 10 man squads overall.  Anyhow, my suggestions aren't being made simply to nerf the chapter. They're being made to eliminate the most abusable aspects of the list that lead to (hated) power builds.

INsofar asrolling a 6 goes, I think I would disagree that the veteran sergeant needs to go to the DC. I appreciate it's an attempt to balance things out, but in the absence of being able to bring in PW/PF if a vet falls to the DC, I don't think the ruling is necessary. I would suggest that if one rolls a 6 for a squad, then the player would have the option of bringing the vet into the DC. THis would also reflect the mental toughness of the veteran sergeant, with all his years of resisting the rage., and make it rarer still for a veteran sergeant to fall to the rage.

Another suggestion I have is regarding the black rage rules. And this is new ground.

1. A unit rolls for black rage if it has a weapon skill AND if it is within 12" of an opponent with a weapon skill at the start of its movement.

2. Make a LD check rather than roll a D6. LD 9 = more likely than a '1' on a D6 result of raging. I think 1 in 6 equates to a LD 10, statistically speaking.

3. WHen you rage, you get the fleet movement, must move towrad the enemy, and get furious charge. Here's how its a disadvantage: If a squad rages, it continues to do so on subsequent turns until it either falls back, consolidates, or gets a massacre result. Basically those events either snap the squad back to its senses, or satisfy the urge imparted by the rage. When raging, no heavy weapons may fire, and no weapons may fire that would prevent an assault, if at the end of a squad's movement the squad is in assault range. The squad must assault if it is in assault range at the end of its movement, if it is not falling back.

4. DC are constantly in a rage state, so benefit from furious charge each turn. This would also imply they get fleet of foot each turn in addition to normal movement. That might be a bit hard to swallow, but it would make sense. IF they are led by a chaplain or sanguinary high priest, they do not have to move toward the nearest enemy or move at all in their movement phase.

5. Dreadnoughts also are subject to this rule. This is implied, but I mention it b/c a dreadnought is a vehicle, per game mechanics. For the purpose testing for the black rage, a dreadnought has LD10.

 

One other thing, for 200 points, I'd say make it 1D3 + 3, AND allow 1 model to be equipped with either a PW, PF, or assault-class special weapon. Allowing a player to select a weapon would reflect that sometimes the squad specialist or sergeant can fall to the DC, and they bring their wargear along.

This way you end up with 4 guys at 50 points each, having 1 special weapon in the group, up to 6 guys for 33 points each, having a special weapon. ON average, it's 5 guys at 40 points each, with 1 model having a special weapon. I think that the average cost is spot on. I like the idea of getting another 'bunch' of DC per X number of points. However, my suggestion, looking at your list, is to make it consistently be 200 points blocks for a d3 + 3, with 1 special weapon for the group. Reason being is that the other way, you risk having 1 model for 100 points. I think even the worst BA-haters would agree that's steep for a single DC model.

Thinking about it further, I'd suggest a maximum of 1 200 point group may be taken per 1250 to 1500 points of army, or fraction thereof. THis would be an attempt to implement a chaos chosen (or possessed? I forget which) - style limitation to the number of models per army.

We'd have to do some refinement at this point, b/c in the case where a player can choose more the one group of DC, the DC would be too large if a player could also choose DC randomly from the squad. So I guess we either limit it to one 200 point group + random drops from squads, or cap the maximum number of DC models allowed for a given army size. Just ideas at this point.

This one's a bit of reach, but it's for fluff reasons... ONly one special weapon may be a PW or PF, for the entire death company. The rationale here is that a veteran sergeant would fall rarely, so it would be rare to see a PW/PF in the squad, although certainly possible.

Red_thirst: I like your idea, but if I am going to have to purchase the DC as a manditory unit and then go and roll to see if I remove models as casualties before the game 200 pts is a bit much. If I am going to spend under your plan approx 50 pts per model for a 4 man DC and then have a 50% chance of losing a modle in each of my squads, thats just a bit much.

I would make the cost variable X pts (ex 200 pts) without removing memebers from your squads, or if the BA player wants to take a chance using the current rules or using your removal rules then the DC costY pts (ex 100 pts). This way the BA player has to make a choise while creating his list, does he want to save his squads from the Black rage or is he willing to risk the random throws of the dice for a lower cost unit.

Just my 2 cents

Posted By winterman on 03/20/2007 9:25 PM

So, now my terminators should be able to take FC or TH for +3 pts each. My Vets should have the choice TH, INF, or FC. Dreads would also get a skill choice.

Tell that to the Dark Angels. Their vets and dreads don't have vet skills. Instead they get an extra base attack, some weapon options and are not subject to the 5/10 rule. Could be what happens to BA, especiayl if they get the same treatment as DA.

Since I don't own the codex, I'll have to ask the question:  Are they stubborn or fearless?  If they are that can take the place of the skill slot.

However even with extra attacks and weapon options, that's still "something" unlike the slowed "nothing" that I'm supposed to like.

Posted By OverchargeThis! on 03/21/2007 2:42 AM

I'd add one thing: To limit abuse on the part of BA players...

Lets be careful with that term.  The players do what the designers let them do, and if it's building an OTT army then the fault lies with the designers who let it happen in the first place. Same goes for IW, (insert your hated army here), etc...  Lax attitudes and untested lists cause these exploits, but once they're in writing, it's all fair.  The blame lays at the feet of those that make the game, and it's a shame they sluff their responsibilities off onto the community to "police" ourselves.  That's unfair to us, and the player shouldn't be punished for things that aren't their fault. 

For themost part, I dont have a problem with the BA army. Just proper unit buying with the deathcompany, and I'm fine. I dont even care they all come with furious charge, since the red thirst/black rage tends to balance it out a bit. I've seen BA run too many tmes when they needed to shoot....

Look man are you blind??? Did i ever say nothing?? I said you will get the cheesy ability that GW wants you to have. Theres one thats not nothing.

After that there will be a mix of things as in the DA codex the terminators and RW are fearless. And the RW have scout. When i said nothing i meant that you will not be able to pick. It will all be spelled out ahead of time instead of haveing any choices. And for the vet squads and command squads you get no veteran choices. If they follow the DA codex.

I have plenty to back me up. ALL the 4th edition Meq codexes have been exactly the way i mention. Thats plenty of back up.

The death company have been whined about for ever. 200 points is rediculous considering how much they hinder the army. Really the army is not that hard so why all the whining about one unit is seriously weak. How about an army full of nothing but death company? Whine about the necron all there guys have this?
Oh well any changes will be whined about by someone. Guess its to be expected.

Lets do this everyone makes there specific marine chapter with the sm codex. Use the traits and build your army. Instead gw will concentrate on new armies and how to make EVERY other army except marines a bit  more popular.

"Lets do this everyone makes there specific marine chapter with the sm codex. Use the traits and build your army. Instead gw will concentrate on new armies and how to make EVERY other army except marines a bit more popular. "

I think most gamers would like nothing better.

Posted By OverchargeThis! on 03/21/2007 2:42 AM

Another suggestion I have is regarding the black rage rules. And this is new ground.

1. A unit rolls for black rage if it has a weapon skill AND if it is within 12" of an opponent with a weapon skill at the start of its movement.

2. Make a LD check rather than roll a D6. LD 9 = more likely than a '1' on a D6 result of raging. I think 1 in 6 equates to a LD 10, statistically speaking.

3. WHen you rage, you get the fleet movement, must move towrad the enemy, and get furious charge. Here's how its a disadvantage: If a squad rages, it continues to do so on subsequent turns until it either falls back, consolidates, or gets a massacre result. Basically those events either snap the squad back to its senses, or satisfy the urge imparted by the rage. When raging, no heavy weapons may fire, and no weapons may fire that would prevent an assault, if at the end of a squad's movement the squad is in assault range. The squad must assault if it is in assault range at the end of its movement, if it is not falling back.

4. DC are constantly in a rage state, so benefit from furious charge each turn. This would also imply they get fleet of foot each turn in addition to normal movement. That might be a bit hard to swallow, but it would make sense. IF they are led by a chaplain or sanguinary high priest, they do not have to move toward the nearest enemy or move at all in their movement phase.

5. Dreadnoughts also are subject to this rule. This is implied, but I mention it b/c a dreadnought is a vehicle, per game mechanics. For the purpose testing for the black rage, a dreadnought has LD10.

Some good thoughts, but IMO too complex to be used.  Maintaining status markers for Black Rage from round to round isn't something GW does in 40k.  Everything either lasts until the end of the current turn (Markerlights) or the next (Stunned, Shaken, Smoke, etc.). 

Also, your LD system for Black Rage doesn't work by the math.  LD10 has only a 1/12 chance to fail (three possible results out of 36 on 2d6), and just taking a Master gives your whole army LD10. 

Posted By Green Bloater on 03/20/2007 10:53 AM
"...you get around 300 points of free skills."

Sorry but that is total bullsh&t and you know it. BA suffer from the Black Rage which is a definite drawback. I finally had to stop using Devs because they would always seem to rage at the worst possible moment for me.

- Greenie

And my Chaos lord with Berserker Glaive never gets to shoot his plasma pistol!

Posted By 5thelement on 03/20/2007 2:09 PM
definatly  not fluffy. The black rage comes upon BA at random so it makes sense to keep it random.

Guardsmen die pretty much at random but IG remnant squads don't have randomly determined sizes...

Are people seriously complaining about the BA's ability to shoot (not to mention the players' fault for abusing lists) or is my Sarcasmeter not working?

KK said something about having remnants of 5/10-man squads "sit out" because DA are OMG STRICT. I think you should combine this with "random IG deaths and squad remnants" and you could have a fun system where you gamble for how many DC members you think you'll gain in multiples of 5. Any models over the number (meaning underestimate) are thrown out and you still pay for them.  If you overestimated, you pay for all. 

Its the end of the world.

I witnessed a BA player actually use 2 squads of termies last night in a 1500 pt game.

It is surely a sign of the end times.

Posted By stonefox on 03/23/2007 4:44 AM
Are people seriously complaining about the BA's ability to shoot (not to mention the players' fault for abusing lists) or is my Sarcasmeter not working?

It's not sarcasm. It took me a long time to completely stop blaming the player for over powered lists.  True, this is a mutual game and when you show up you realize that it's meant to be fun, and wiping someone off the board  w/o them having a chance isn't fun for the other player.  I dunno about you but I don't spend hundreds of dollars to play games that piss me off.

However, who really brought the list to the table?  The designer who allowed it to be made in the first place.  If the designers had done their job and created balanced lists then the whole point would be moot.  However they didn't and abuse happens because they were sloppy.  Instead, they've put the burden back on the players to "police" each other, which can detract from friendly games. Especially when there's no hard guidelines for policing. Why fix your work when you can make others do it for you?

So, yes, its up to the designers to do their job and get it right.

" whole squads of Termies in a BA list? I dont know what to say? I just use the one. Assualt termies at that.

Moopy - Right. But, we are talking about BA here and I would think everyone else knows just how overpowered and broken they are.

I still smile deep down inside to think that the then-completely-new Witch Hunter codex only got a few dozen games to test it.

That must be why they always win the grand tournies.

Yes, we have gotten a lot of free stuff for a long time and it looks like that will change; probably for the better. But honestly, the only part of the list that everyone really has strong opinions about is the DC.

What am I hoping to see in the new list?
1. Cheaper Vet assaulters. +5 pts per model just to be able to take melta guns? Not worth it.
2. Get rid of the rhino blows up crap. Really it's crap since we have tech marines.
3. DC Stop taking vets for weapon upgrades. Have an option to buy them, maybe 1 for ever 5 DC. PW, PF, LC.
4. Pay something from rhino or jp for DC
5. Make Sanquinary Priests (not SHP) play some larger roll in army as a unit upgrade. They're very cool but I've never seen one used.
6. If mandated FC goes away allow units to take other skills. If not then they get a BR roll, then they have FC that turn as well.
7. Allow BA to disembark if they've gone over 12". Not assault, just get out. They've always been a rapid mobile strike army, but now there's very little that plays to that theme.

How about if OCE allows them to assault the same turn the rhino moves? Probably won't happen but that would really give people something to whine about.

- Greenie

I tend to agree with Moopy.

Blood Angels have always been a very 'in your face' army list. Here's what I'd like to see done (Taking some of what Moopy has said)

1) Cheaper rhinos & Razorbacks. I don't want them to necessarily be as cheap as the Dark Angels codex has them, but let me at least pay the same as the SM codex please.

2.) Remove the "I explode" part of the rhino & razorback overcharged engines upgrade part, OR leave it and make that a BA only optional upgrade for the rhinos & razorbacks (+5 points for overcharged engines).

3) See moopy's 3rd point, make weapon upgrades a "1 in 4 or 1 in 5" option. However, no lightning claws, just power weapons and powerfists only. (personal opinion there) I think LC's might be a little overpowered when you factor in the chaplains litanies ability and furious charge.

4) See Moopy's 4th point, I agree with this totally. Pay X points and get a rhino, or pay Y points and get jump packs for the DC.

5) Cheaper veteran assault squads. Make them worth taking!

6) I tend to agree with Moopy about the sanguiniary priests, but prehaps not a unit upgrade. Maybe let veteran and veteran assault squads have them prehaps?

7) See Moopy's 7th point: I agree with this as well.

8) Give Blood Angels a unique drop pod option, like a drop pod with a different weapon system other than the stormbolter, built for crowd control. Maybe a flamer, or something along those lines.

9) Balance Furious Charge with Black Rage, either pay 1 extra point for all infantry models that have FC factoring in the BR random movement disadvantage, or remove it and let it be that FC only happens IF you roll a 1 on the BR check as has been suggested before.

10) Make bikes a more viable option. I don't ever see BA bikers used. I'd like to try and run them in the future, but assault marines just do the job better overall.

11) Add 10 points to the SHP's point cost and give him 3 wounds, or make a 3 wound version of him to go with the existing 2 wound version. (To bring it up to speed with the other marine character options available in the SM codex.)

That's what I'd like to see.

We'll see what happens though. Take it easy everyone.

-RT-

SP for the Vetran squads would be cool as they would be leading more elite units and not just your average troop squad. Also would make those choices more attractive.

Green B: That's what they called the "rhino rush" and GW purposefully nerfed it as people could get a turn 1 charge. I got it several times, (killing a land raider with a thunder hammer once). People hated it so GW did away with it. Sorry if this is not what your post refered to.