Uh oh. I noticed this on BwBs news page:

20 March

• We have voluntarily complied with Games Workshop's request for removal of IP protected images of box set items, books etc. (finished goods) from our website. We encourage other internet retailers who are doing the same thing, to also voluntarily remove IP protected images from their websites.
• We are also in discussion with Games Workshop on a variety of different issues pertaining to the sale and use of their products by Battlewagon Bits. We will keep everyone posted on the ongoing discussions between BwB and GW.

Looks like the lawyers are begninng their assault. If they were to close BwB, that would be a shame. I've had nothing but good results with them.

I'd really hate for BWBitz to close, but if they do, I'll be laughing my arse off at all the GW sockpuppets that justified GW's craptacular kits and price hikes vis a vis "yew can get it for cheep threw BWBitz!". Not if GW puts their "competition" out of business you can't! Anyhow, this sounds like more typical GW anti-competitive thuggery. Yay predatory capitalism!

Yeah ok i can see them getting upset over their pictures. they shouldn't ever have been used but I am curious what the other issues are.

funny thing is, BWBitz doesn't get any more of a discount than any other retailer, so why should they be solo'd out for this? quite frankly who cares how they break down their kits.. if at the end of the day, GW makes the reailer profit from them, it should be a done deal.. personally i have tons of bitz and have not used the services, but I also dont' see a reason for the focus either..

That would suck. I've had great experiences ordering from them. It saved my a couple hundred bucks on my Imperial Guard army to get the kneeling legs and so on for my heavy weapons troops.

Hopefully they can work things out.

Almost any retailer has an issue with someone breaking down packaged items into pieces and selling them off. A lot of different products even have this listed on the package.

GW has held everyone else accountable for images of the product, so why wouldn't BWBitz be accountable?

And as for breaking down box sets, there is always ebay and the local group. You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

Awesome.  Totally awesome.

~adds more chum to the water~

I hope GW legal cant get a grip around BWB.

It would be nice for others such as BWB to spring up and make the secondary market a bigger thing. Its a much needed service.

I am obviously not a lawyer, but am having troubles seeing how shops like BWB should be under the scrutiny of GW legal. They already made their purchase from GW for the intent of profitable resale, just like anyone else selling GW products, or any products for that matter.

I don't think anything will come of them breaking down the boxes and selling the bitz.

the IP infringement is totally just though. Most everyone here remembers when all the other companies had to remove GW's imagery from their site, BW Bitz just got away with it for longer than most.

Not to stir the pot or anything, but couldn't they get around this by simply taking pictures of the items in question?  I appreciate that this would be a LOT of work, especially on the bits end, but then they wouldn't be using GW IP (I think...)

AJC

Posted By AJCarrington on 03/21/2007 9:19 AM
Not to stir the pot or anything, but couldn't they get around this by simply taking pictures of the items in question?  I appreciate that this would be a LOT of work, especially on the bits end, but then they wouldn't be using GW IP (I think...)

AJC

Actually, they do take pictures of all the bits they are selling already. The real question is if they can take pictures of the boxed sets... or maybe have a shoutout for pictures of painted squads of the particular boxed sets.

*sigh* every time GW legal goes to work, it makes me want to learn L334 hacking skills to bombard their legal IPs with spam. Failing that, if every member of every 40k, WHFB, etc. forum sent an email in protest, they might get the picture... but, that doesn't happen.

It amuses me that what GW-Legal seems to have a problem with is the box front art, not the actual bit pictures.  My local gaming store displays the box fronts all the time, cleverly enough by putting them up on the shelf.  That is the intent of the box art, to draw people in, and advertise...

I can't wait till next year when everything not sold by GW comes in a plain box, with a text only label describing the contents, and GW stores or online is the only place to get the full color box art...

Meh, the supposed IP infringement seems shaky. But most places cave, so it works. After all, even if they don't sue, they can just cut you off. And what is a retailer with no supply?

Can you imagine if Ford or HP was this ridiculous? You cannot show pictures of our muffler! We will go after anyone selling our monitors online!

Well if BWB is going out of business, I need to get over there and buy buy buy before that happens!!!!!!!

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

No they’re not.    

They are an ok buy.  The only look good compared to GW’s wild prices for the separate items.

 

Compared to them alone, then yes, they’re cheap.  A bit like how compared to Peter North’s, my dick looks small.

rofl

Posted By Bombot on 03/21/2007 9:53 AM

 

A bit like how compared to Peter North’s, my dick looks small.

That's funny. It doesn't feel small.

I mean look.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
GW has held everyone else accountable for images of the product, so why wouldn't BWBitz be accountable?

Umm, right. I think we all agree on that point. Even though it's a stupid rule, BWBits isn't exempt.

And as for breaking down box sets, there is always ebay and the local group. You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

Now that's where you lost me. Bartertown, eBay, local groups, etc. don't even come close to filling the need that BWBits and Co. have. Maybe if you've got a lot of time on your hands, or aren't much of a customizer or converter, those options will suit you. But try for example, kitting yor entire Marine army with MK IV helmets and tabards. Without BWBits and the like, it just wouldn't be practical. These types of stores make the hobby more enjoyable for the modelers among us, and why anyone would want to get in the way of that is beyond me.

The box sets are a good buy compared to what? There really isn't anything closely comparable on the market since GW insists that you use official GW parts. I suppose they're an ok buy for those people who want to put together an army easily, but for anyone who really wants to add some character to their army, relying on boxsets or even GW bitz order sprues for the parts they need is often cost prohibitive.      

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
And as for breaking down box sets, there is always ebay and the local group. You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

I hate the agruement that you can always "trade for the bitz you need".  This is a terrible arguement, since the most desirable bitz are the ones everyone uses!  Here's a few examples:

1.  Say you need a pair of terminator legs - Unfortunately, the box of terminators only gives you enough parts to build a min size squad, with no spare legs... I challenge you to find someone who hasn't used their Terminator legs.  (Same can be said about the pre-Dark Angels sprue assault cannon).

2.  Tau plasma rifles.  Since these come only one to a crisis suit...  and -everyone- uses them to combat the glut of 3+sv, these are near impossible to trade for.

3.  How about Necron scarab swarms?  Nobody wants to give these up.  They are hard to get normally, and they're fantastic in the game.

To say that a service like BWB is unneccessary is very short-sighted of you.

Not saying it is unnecessary. I like it and order from it. Makes it easier to get a hold of those parts for my pre-heresy force.
Most of which I have put together by trading people part for parts or buying up leftovers from people on ebay.

I AM saying it is not necessary to make certain box sets still not a bargain or a good buy.

I would hate for the site to go away, but only time and GW can tell us if it will.

The thing with the use of copywritten images has to do with fair use and licenses. When a store buys a box of Marines and puts them on the shelf, they own that copy of the box art work. The only own that copy, but it's still enough to legally put it on your shelf (or on ebay, I'm pretty sure), and then resell it. When you take their image, and place it on the web to sell other boxes, you're using what you don't own: the license to use their IP as an online advertisment. What's unique about GW is that they're one of the few companies vertically integrated (they make, market, wholesale, and sell the product resale), so they actually want to discourage certain sales of their product. Even so, they own the IP, and they can restrict it's usage as they see fit.

As for breaking down a product and reselling it, that's not restricted by property laws. You can sell what you own, and if you own a pile of bitz, you can sell them as you see fit. What GW can chose to do is simply stuff selling them boxes at the retailer discount. It's a contract dispute (i"m guessing the contract to buy GW stuff is pretty extensive).

Don't get me wrong, GW's protection of it's IP is at times overzealous, and they certainly dont' shy from litigating. But if you think what they do to people who use their pictures is harsh, you should see the settlements for figure counterfeiting: $4000 in damages, plus $50,000 in legal fees and costs. (it's Games Workshop v. Beale, if you're curious). The district court actually reduced the proposed legal fees down from $150k in fees and costs (and GW itself claims to have spent over $250k). This represents over 500 hours of work to stop a guy from duping minis in his basement, and collected in the end only $4000 of actual damages. Of course, the guy in question was being really shady, beyond counterfeiting.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 10:33 AM
Not saying it is unnecessary. I like it and order from it. Makes it easier to get a hold of those parts for my pre-heresy force.
Most of which I have put together by trading people part for parts or buying up leftovers from people on ebay.

I AM saying it is not necessary to make certain box sets still not a bargain or a good buy.

I would hate for the site to go away, but only time and GW can tell us if it will.

I gotcha. Personally, I don't understand why BWBits sells the boxsets. Probably want to be a "one stop shopping" sort of store.

Posted By Polonius on 03/21/2007 10:57 AM
The thing with the use of copywritten images has to do with fair use and licenses. When a store buys a box of Marines and puts them on the shelf, they own that copy of the box art work. The only own that copy, but it's still enough to legally put it on your shelf (or on ebay, I'm pretty sure), and then resell it. When you take their image, and place it on the web to sell other boxes, you're using what you don't own: the license to use their IP as an online advertisment.

Now I understand. Makes sense. Thanks for that.

As for breaking down a product and reselling it, that's not restricted by property laws. You can sell what you own, and if you own a pile of bitz, you can sell them as you see fit. What GW can chose to do is simply stuff selling them boxes at the retailer discount. It's a contract dispute (i"m guessing the contract to buy GW stuff is pretty extensive).

Exactly what I thought.

You know, even if GW decided to take away their retailer discount, I don't think it'd be a big deal to the customer if the bitz stores had to raise prices to offset their losses. Most of us use aren't using BWBits, etc. to buy complete kits at a discount., but rather to buy specific parts without having to buy the whole kit or sprue.

What would happen if BWB chose to purchase their boxed sets from a 2nd or 3rd party distributor (The Warstore, Alliance Games, etc)? I mean, they'd lose some of the discount and would have to mark their bits up some, but it would be doable...

Most likely though, they're going to fold like a card table.

Don't get me wrong, GW's protection of it's IP is at times overzealous, and they certainly dont' shy from litigating. But if you think what they do to people who use their pictures is harsh, you should see the settlements for figure counterfeiting: $4000 in damages, plus $50,000 in legal fees and costs. (it's Games Workshop v. Beale, if you're curious).

Hrm... I can't seem to find that case. I don't suppose you can give its full reference or provide a link?

I realize it's been several years since my microeconomics class in college, and I have never taken macroecon... but I'm having a hard time grasping how reduced online sales (the logical extension of limiting availability of GW IP in Box Art) helps GW's already mediocre sales performance. I realize that they market and sell their own product, as well as have brick & mortar stores... but since those stores need a sizeable economic base to stay open, many of us who enjoy the hobby MUST go to online sources. (I just checked: the nearest official GW store is over 700 miles away in St. Louis, and the nearest independent retailer is 60 miles away... given the price of gas, that means fewer trips & less spur of the moment purchases) I understand the whole competitive edge of not having a storefront to maintain, but when the chips fall, it seems vital to expand the hobby to a point where GW can flourish--via online sales and face-to-face sales.

As noted in another forum, the problem is that there are NO sales offered from GW, B&M or Online. The best thing they've got are the army building cards now... but they really don't save you that much.

Anyway... I'll keep my fingers crossed that BWBits can use negotiation successfully with GW to continue to operate as they have been. I know BWBits has resurged my interest in the game.. and thus has led to more purchases of actual box sets as well as bits (which still = profit for GW).

Cheers

Beale is a district court case, and lexis had it, but no cites to a reporter. It's lexis cite is 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 22525, from the western division of the western district of Missouri. Legally, it's only interesting in it's discussion of legal fees.

As for the justification of banning online sales, the stated goal was to encourage Brick and Mortar stores across the board. Basically, instead of ordering from The WarStore, you'd buy from the FLGS down the street. Realistically, they want you to buy their stuff online from GW, and thus make more profits themselves.

As for discounting compared to sales, the basic goal of econ is to maximise the supply demand curve. GW wants to make the most profit, and keep the most market share. Selling more units, but making less money (at 20% off) might not be in their best long term interest. Compare it to the dot-com bubble: too many sites failed to make money while trying to build market share, while the successfule companies lasted longer because they were profitable.

Now, it appears that the numbers show that GW is ailing (lower profits, reduced overall sales), so it's possible they are pricing themselves out of the market. Time will tell, but I'm guessing the affect has been minimal, worldwide.

I'd bet a fair amount of money that somebody looked at GW five or ten years ago, and realized that they had a captive audience buying a product, and realized that they're product was underpriced. Link that with a change in both core rule sets that encourages more models, and you've got a recipe for at least short term success.

One question that only GW has the answer to is: What percentage of overall sales are by hardcore GW gamers, and what percentage are by casual modellers, collectors, etc? I'm guessing the amount of product purchased by hardcore gamers like us is smaller than we think, and they sell a fair amount of kits to folks who buy one off blisters or tanks. I clearly could be wrong, but you know GW has (or should have) those numbers.

If BWB buys their stuff from a distributor, I don't know what the discount is, but I'm pretty sure they can resell as they like. Where it gets interesting is what sort of contract the distributor has with GW, and what the terms are.

From what I've heard, don't retailers get a 45% discout? What do you get through a distributor? you can get 20% through the War Store, so the price increase of the bits can't be too huge. A 50% increase in the cost of raw materials (the boxes they cannibaliae) probobly won't translate immediatly into a 50% increase in bitz prices, but probobly pretty damn near it.

"One question that only GW has the answer to is: What percentage of overall sales are by hardcore GW gamers, and what percentage are by casual modellers, collectors, etc? I'm guessing the amount of product purchased by hardcore gamers like us is smaller than we think, and they sell a fair amount of kits to folks who buy one off blisters or tanks. I clearly could be wrong, but you know GW has (or should have) those numbers."


Good question. My intuition suggests the opposite. There are a lot of historical model manufacturers that make more detailed models for less cost. I imagine that they would take up most of the 'casual' one-off market.

The gravy may be in people buying multiples of the same boxed set for an army - 6 boxes of Cadians for an IG army for instance.

I

ts my understanding that BWBits was a rogue company that did not buy from Games Workshop. Now they officially are, and can now sell bitz without any hassle, so everything seems to be resolved.

 

 

Posted By Asmodai on 03/21/2007 12:21 PM


Good question. My intuition suggests the opposite. There are a lot of historical model manufacturers that make more detailed models for less cost. I imagine that they would take up most of the 'casual' one-off market.

The gravy may be in people buying multiples of the same boxed set for an army - 6 boxes of Cadians for an IG army for instance.

That's my first thought as well.  Before I played GW games, I really had little use for their models.  I'd like to get that info though, as it would probobly answer a lot of questions.

Posted By Bombot on 03/21/2007 9:53 AM  

Compared to them alone, then yes, they’re cheap.  A bit like how compared to Peter North’s, my dick looks small.

I haven't shot coke through my nose in a long while, Bombot.  Kudos.

Although admitting that you've sized up Petey's Pole is kind of disturbing, but I digress. 

 

The BWB thing seems kind of iffy.  Claiming your dog as a dependent on your income taxes iffy.  But I'm no lawyer.  But as much as I hate to say it, you don't accept money orders, you get burned.

@Jester, what does your drug habit have to do with Bombot?

Darrian

Bombot has become my enabler.

At least that's what I'm telling the DEA.

Just curious... wouldn't photos of the boxed sets fall under Fair Use since BWBits is a US company?

Posted By Polonius on 03/21/2007 12:05 PM

One question that only GW has the answer to is: What percentage of overall sales are by hardcore GW gamers, and what percentage are by casual modellers, collectors, etc? I'm guessing the amount of product purchased by hardcore gamers like us is smaller than we think, and they sell a fair amount of kits to folks who buy one off blisters or tanks. I clearly could be wrong, but you know GW has (or should have) those numbers.

They don't.

21 March

• <strong align="left">Games Workshop & Battlewagon Bits [/b]
  There have been alot of rumors flying around the web lately about our March 20 announcement. We will issue a statement next week about our plans for the future. In the meantime we are still open for business, with all products still available for purchase.

Posted By Kesher on 03/21/2007 8:18 PM

21 March

• <strong align="left">Games Workshop & Battlewagon Bits [/b]
  There have been alot of rumors flying around the web lately about our March 20 announcement. We will issue a statement next week about our plans for the future. In the meantime we are still open for business, with all products still available for purchase.

Posted By Breotan on 03/21/2007 7:36 PM
Just curious... wouldn't photos of the boxed sets fall under Fair Use since BWBits is a US company?

From wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

<dl><dd>

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

</dd></dl>Essentially, fair use is what allows Weird Al to make parodies, movie critics to show clips, teachers to make photocopies of newspaper articles, etc.  Using anothers IP for profit is harder, especially if the profit to be made is at the expense of the owner, is generally not fair use.  For example, Weird Al's "Amish Paradise" didn't limit demand for Coolio's CD.  I think GW would argue that BWB's use of their IP allows them to make a profit at GW's expense, because it limits demand for buying stuff from GW. 

Posted By Polonius on 03/21/2007 8:54 PM

Essentially, fair use is what allows Weird Al to make parodies, movie critics to show clips, teachers to make photocopies of newspaper articles, etc.  Using anothers IP for profit is harder, especially if the profit to be made is at the expense of the owner, is generally not fair use.  For example, Weird Al's "Amish Paradise" didn't limit demand for Coolio's CD.  I think GW would argue that BWB's use of their IP allows them to make a profit at GW's expense, because it limits demand for buying stuff from GW. 

Heh. I remember GW's statement around 2002 regarding this issue. Yeah, GW is taking control of their box art IP on internet retail sites for the good of the B&M stores....my ass...

Thanks for the laymans clarification, Polonius.

If limiting images is good for B&M stores, why is GW making such an effort to kill off the B&M with their boutique mall outlets?

In addition to their shops in select locations, GW dictates to B&M shops how to display product, minimum $ amounts for ordering, huge initial start up costs for ordering, bad accounting practices. The IP internet issue was simply stated to blur the real issue. GW wants to be able to sell their own product and dictate their own prices. It's GW's bottom line, not anyone else's they are concerned with.

GW must be run by idiots! Any reasonable widget producer welcomes more resellers. More sales = more profits... simple economics. Second, and more importantly, GW has recently stated that they have ignored the "Hobby People" in the past and are looking for avenues to bring them back into the fold. This would, to me, would seem to be a turn down the wrong highway.

GW looks at this all wrong... Internet sales is basically free advertising for their wares. The more people who see their products the more who might buy them. They should not be so concerned with the profit margin from every single sale but instead should be looking to increase profit by increased sales and lower prices. Again, simple economics. This whole "artificial scarcity" thing that GW is creating really turns my stomach.

they are not idiots just have the wrong plan for the states. they are thinking it is ok to sell 20% less at 40% more profit. if you can sell 100 dollars retail to a B&M shop for 60 bucks, you would be better off to sell 80 retail stuff through your own stores. The problem is that most people will not spend fifty bucks in one shot for 5 terminators. but would spend 100 bucks over time if they could get terminators at $5 at shot. boxing every thing turns it from pocket money purchases to expensive. i would probally pick up a lot more crap from GW if i could go to their store and walk out with something for less then $10 but it is getting harder and harder to do that.

I'm sorry, not understanding day 2 of micro-economics 101 makes them idiots in my book.

Someone mentioned about BWbitz buying from a distributor - they do - that distributor is GW. As another poster pointed out GW is a wholly vertically intergrated company.

It seems like the easiest thing for BWBitz to do is get pictures of painted models/squads/vehicles for the box sets. It would not suprise me to see a large number of people send it photos of their squads for them to use. i'd send them pics of my tau (which I bought wholly from them and ebay - thanks for the plasma rifles...).

Beefheart: I suspect that GW does understand day 2 of micro-econ. While not being a strict monopoly (there are other games to play, I'm blanking on the exact term right now, it's been 10 years since I finished my M.S.), they can charge enough on their product to return a very nice sustainable return.

What seems to be more of a problem for them is that they have not adjusted their pricing models to take into account the downturn in the overall gaming industry partially brought on by the last couple years of world wide instability in the general economy. Since gaming is a luxury item, and the housing market is taking a nose dive in the US, leading to increased fears of a recession I know I've been buying less GW stuff (except bitz from BWBitz) as money has gotten tighter.

Enough rambling on my part. Hopefully Bitz will stay around as it's the only place I can reliably buy parts for conversions/modeling at a decent price.

I hate to see a legit business tank.  It's more choice for us to buy from!

Warseer had a thread on this topic but if I recall it was a bunch of circlejerking "support GW!" posts mixed with a bunch of ignorant "well I didn't know what they sold so it doesn't affect me anyway!" crap. I can't find it so it must have been deleted but it's funny how Warseer, supposedly a bastion of conversion-fluff-theme (instead of evil powergaming Dakka ), didn't know much about BWBits and their useful service.

And I just find it ironic that GW would try to shut down a business selling individual parts GW itself doesn't even sell, from boxes that BW buys from GW, but I guess forcing you to buy the whole box (sprues don't even work with half the items in the online store so you have to go to their shop to order from the Bitz Catalog) is the reason. Eh.

Posted By stonefox on 03/22/2007 6:44 AM
Warseer had a thread on this topic but if I recall it was a bunch of circlejerking "support GW!" posts mixed with a bunch of ignorant "well I didn't know what they sold so it doesn't affect me anyway!" crap. I can't find it so it must have been deleted but it's funny how Warseer, supposedly a bastion of conversion-fluff-theme (instead of evil powergaming Dakka ), didn't know much about BWBits and their useful service.

To be fair about the ignorance of BWBits, I think that's because Warseer is more Europe-orientated than Dakka.

The "buy from GW direct" posts make me want to chew my fist though.

I agree there are other games to play and that is exactly what will happen if GW continues along their current path. No new LotRs movie will be able to save them. Their stock continues to fall, sales fall, profits weaken and their only solution is to increase prices and limit distribution... This clearly does not show a firm grasp of even the most basic economic principals.

Posted By budro on 03/22/2007 6:20 AM
Someone mentioned about BWbitz buying from a distributor - they do - that distributor is GW. As another poster pointed out GW is a wholly vertically intergrated company.

It is my understanding that BWBits was buying its Bitz from a third party, and not from GW, hence why it was a rogue company. But as I said earlier, from what I understand, its all been taken care of and BWBitz is in the clear to do what it does.

 

Actually the thread on Warseer was more about complaints against BWbits and people's bad experiences with it. There were quite a few posts from people that either didn't get the parts they ordered or had to jump through hoops to get them. There were also pro-BWbits posts, but I think the thread was removed because it was just a lot of fighting.

Posted By skkipper on 03/22/2007 6:03 AM
they are not idiots just have the wrong plan for the states. they are thinking it is ok to sell 20% less at 40% more profit. if you can sell 100 dollars retail to a B&M shop for 60 bucks, you would be better off to sell 80 retail stuff through your own stores. The problem is that most people will not spend fifty bucks in one shot for 5 terminators. but would spend 100 bucks over time if they could get terminators at $5 at shot. boxing every thing turns it from pocket money purchases to expensive. i would probally pick up a lot more crap from GW if i could go to their store and walk out with something for less then $10 but it is getting harder and harder to do that.

I don't know if I'd set the numbers where you have.  The profit per unit/number of units sold curve is a tricky thing to play with, and judging by the stories we always hear about the number of unpainted models people have in our collections (and the boxes here in my home office), GW may have had the prices too low in the past.

Still, they probably do need to adjust downward, or at least stop with the increases for a while.  They are definitely losing market share in the US; once they stop being the most available game to play, they lose BOTH incoming new players AND continuing sales from us veterans.  Right now Warmachine is going strong at my FLGS, with a very active league (see links at top of page), and we're having to struggle to get any traction with our 40k league.  It's darn hard to recruit people when there's generally one or two games of 40k played on a league night, and 15+ of WM.  People want to be in the party with the large attendance.  For many years that was GW, and in the UK maybe it still is, but in the US it's becoming less so.  There are multiple factors which contribute, but even if pricing is only one of them, it at least is something over which GW has control.

Posted By Toreador on 03/22/2007 8:29 AM
Actually the thread on Warseer was more about complaints against BWbits and people's bad experiences with it. There were quite a few posts from people that either didn't get the parts they ordered or had to jump through hoops to get them. There were also pro-BWbits posts, but I think the thread was removed because it was just a lot of fighting.

The "post your experiences with BWBits" is a different thread than what I was talking about.  The one I was talking about is specifically about the legality of the bits service with this topic in mind. It is nowhere to be found.

It was in a legality thread, saw it devolving into an experiences thread.

Posted By Sarigar on 03/22/2007 5:04 AM
In addition to their shops in select locations, GW dictates to B&M shops how to display product, minimum $ amounts for ordering, huge initial start up costs for ordering, bad accounting practices. The IP internet issue was simply stated to blur the real issue. GW wants to be able to sell their own product and dictate their own prices. It's GW's bottom line, not anyone else's they are concerned with.

To be blunt, your wrong. I've sold GW product for 20 years. I've never been told how to display it, unless you're referring to them giving me as many free racks as I want, free posters, paint racks, and shipping me 3 1400.00 lighted display cases. Really twisted my arm on that one.

There are no minimum orders from GW. There used to be a minimum order That gave you free freight. If you wanted to pay the freight, there was no minimum. Currently, I can place an order for 80.00 and it came in freight free. (And, every other game distributor I order from has a minimum for free freight, it's a common deal.)

There is no huge initial start up. The retailer has about 6 different suggested starting levels, as detailed out in the Trade Order Form, or can talk to his rep about doing something different.

GW has gotten much better in the last two years in their relations with B&M stores. I never found them that hard to deal with at all, compared with other distributors I work with.

Posted By stonefox on 03/22/2007 6:44 AM
Warseer had a thread on this topic but if I recall it was a bunch of circlejerking "support GW!" posts mixed with a bunch of ignorant "well I didn't know what they sold so it doesn't affect me anyway!" crap. I can't find it so it must have been deleted but it's funny how Warseer, supposedly a bastion of conversion-fluff-theme (instead of evil powergaming Dakka ), didn't know much about BWBits and their useful service.

Warseer has a high population of posters from Great Britain. BWB is located in the states. It's a lot less viable to order bits and ship them across the pond. There are, however, English based bitz services that have started up.

Posted By budro on 03/22/2007 6:20 AM
Someone mentioned about BWbitz buying from a distributor - they do - that distributor is GW. As another poster pointed out GW is a wholly vertically intergrated company.

Actually, no, they haven't been buying from GW, or at least, not directly. To deal with GW directly, you must have a B&M store front, not just sell GW on the internet. You can do both storefront, and internet, and order from GW directly.

For a time, BWB was posing as a B&M, and getting shipments from GW, but was only running a warehouse and shipping center for it's internet sales. GW actually made a trip to the area of the address they were shipping to, nosed around a bit, found the warehouse, and paid a visit. After that, they were given a choice: have a storefront and stay as an active account, or continue as an online seller, and order through a distributor, such as Alliance Games, ACD, or Blackhawk Dist.  The discount from a subdistributor is less, something like 35%, vs. 45% from GW. (Distributors have to have a profit margin or why do it?).

BWB has been basically getting their GW goods from another B and M store, or several of them, and hasn't had an active GW account for months. This causes problems for both them and the store they order through.

What's probably happening at this point, is that instead of continueing to break rules and fly under the radar, (and getting calls from GW's legal dept.), they are taking steps to become a legitimate business and stick around for the long haul. This last paragraph is my opinion/guess.

Mikhaila, thank you for this.  It's nice to see some intelligent, even-handed commentary amongst all the shennanery going on lately.

Plus, I learned some stuff too.

It might be different for your mikhaila, but my LGS owner has had never had much good to say about doing business with GW.

Course he isn't usually that positive in the first place...

I have no idea what the deal is with the selling part of this, but as a website owner who's had a lot of long chats with GW's IP guys, I can help explain that part.

First, let me say I haven't seen BWB's site lately, so I could be wrong here.  But I believe some of the images they were using were images from GW's website.  Here's what they don't like.  They said the same thing about non-retail sites.  They pay a crew of guys who take pictures, make JPGs/GIFs of the box art, all that stuff.  So they've paid for this labor so they can use it.  Along comes John Smith, grabbing those images, and using them - at no cost to himself - to make money.  Something they put money into is now making someone else money.

The way they explained it to me was that you can take your own pictures, and they don't particularly mind.  So BWB could, as someone suggested, use pictures of assembled units, including painted units, and models, to illustrate.  However!  This would mean that BWB would have to put out money and effort to do so.  Before you complain about them having to put out money and effort to make themselves money, think about that, and how GW already did that and found someone else making money off of their work.

Trust me, I'm no GW apologist, especially with some of the migraines I had over the stuff, but I understand it.

Mikhaila

"To be blunt, your wrong. I've sold GW product for 20 years. I've never been told how to display it, unless you're referring to them giving me as many free racks as I want, free posters, paint racks, and shipping me 3 1400.00 lighted display cases. Really twisted my arm on that one.

There are no minimum orders from GW. There used to be a minimum order That gave you free freight. If you wanted to pay the freight, there was no minimum. Currently, I can place an order for 80.00 and it came in freight free. (And, every other game distributor I order from has a minimum for free freight, it's a common deal.)

There is no huge initial start up. The retailer has about 6 different suggested starting levels, as detailed out in the Trade Order Form, or can talk to his rep about doing something different. "

 

-Where do  you do business from?

Posted By Nuwisha on 03/22/2007 11:22 PM
It might be different for your mikhaila, but my LGS owner has had never had much good to say about doing business with GW.

Its definately different.  Before my FLGS closed, the owner got nothing but a headache dealing directly with GW.  I personally liked the 'newer' paint rack that I helped him put together.  Not going to go into all that though.

The problems he was having may have been because he was only an hour away from a GW battlebunker and it was the time when GW stopped actually 'helping' most smaller stores.

On topic. As someone else mentioned earlier, except for metal bits that you can buy seperately from their website, GW isn't really in the bits business are they?  I mean those that come off the plastic sprues.  Pictures of the metal bits may be a problem but single pieces off a plastic sprue is stretching it I would think.  Maybe everything will work out.

 

Posted By Sarigar on 03/23/2007 3:34 AM

-Where do  you do business from?

Showcase Comics, two shops in the Philadelphia suburbs.

Posted By Nuwisha on 03/22/2007 11:22 PM
It might be different for your mikhaila, but my LGS owner has had never had much good to say about doing business with GW.

Course he isn't usually that positive in the first place...

This is an old, old question that always comes up.  The answer is that it’s virtually impossible to sort out exactly how much of a given store’s problems with GW are their fault or GW’s fault, unless you’re the guy running the store. 

 

A lot of people who run hobby stores are not retail professionals by a long shot; many of them have poor organization and cashflow, and if they fail to put in orders in a timely fashion, or to accurately gauge the demand for an item, their customers lose out.  In some cases it’s easier for them to blame GW than to personally apologize to the guy at their store whose order they mishandled.  I’ve known several store owners (one or two in person, others online like Mikhaila) who were well-organized and who understood the retail business, and who report good working relationships with GW.

 

On the other hand, there are certainly some corroborated and credible stories out there about GW sales reps who were unprofessional and/or incompetent and handled indy store accounts badly.  I’ve known a couple of other people who ran stores and did know what they were doing, who were mishandled by GW sales badly enough to stop dealing with them directly.  They either dropped the product line or started purchasing from a distributor despite the reduced profit margin. 

 

It’s really a mixed bag.  Enough so to make me take the horror stories I come across online with a healthy dose of skepticism, and to be pretty dismissive of the more conspiracy-sounding rants.

Posted By Iorek on 03/22/2007 8:56 PM
 It's nice to see some intelligent, even-handed commentary amongst all the shennanery going on lately.

Is "shennanery" even a real word?

I call shennananinninannins on you Iorek.

Posted By beefHeart on 03/22/2007 6:07 AM
I'm sorry, not understanding day 2 of micro-economics 101 makes them idiots in my book.

The economics here is surprisingly simple.  GW's verticle integration, as was mentioned by another poster, is the key element, here.

Let's say that there are two shops in Everytown.  One shop is mine and I sell my widgets at 100 bucks.  The other shop, Battletruck, sells my boxes for 80 bucks.

You have the choice of going to either store, each is equally convienent to get to.  You will go to the cheaper store.  By making my product available at Battletruck, I'm effectively cutting my own profits because I'm selling my boxes there for only 80 bucks instead of 100.  If Battletruck closes down, you will either buy at my store or not buy any at all.

Take this to the internet.  It truly is just as easy to log onto GW's website to order boxes and bits as it is any other site.  If you buy from GW, all of the profit for that sale goes to GW.  If you buy from one of GW's independant retailers on the internet, they have to share their profit with that retailer.  In a Brick and Mortar setting, that is a worthwhile compromise because it allows GW to sell product in areas where they don't have a store.  But on the internet, it is not a worthwhile compromise because GW's store reaches every customer that an independant retailer's website can reach.

BwB provides a service that GW's website provides.  Though BwB is selling GW's product, GW's profits are still being reduced because GW is only getting wholesale profit from BwB when they can get retail profit from their own website.  Allowing BwB to sell GW's product on their website is counterproductive to their own service.

Posted By redstripe on 03/23/2007 9:28 AM

Take this to the internet.  It truly is just as easy to log onto GW's website to order boxes and bits as it is any other site.  If you buy from GW, all of the profit for that sale goes to GW.  If you buy from one of GW's independant retailers on the internet, they have to share their profit with that retailer.  In a Brick and Mortar setting, that is a worthwhile compromise because it allows GW to sell product in areas where they don't have a store.  But on the internet, it is not a worthwhile compromise because GW's store reaches every customer that an independant retailer's website can reach.

That's a pretty well written distillation of the situation.  GW wants you to buy stuff from them, in the following order:
1) From their stores, so they can up-sell you
2) from their website, so they get full profits
3) From a FLGS in an area where there is no GW store, so the buyer gets hobby support at no cost to GW.
4) Mail order from a third party: where GW makes less money, the hobby isn't supported, etc.

As customers, we generally buy from places based on the following factors:
1) where it's cheapest
2) where we can play comfortably
3) Where it's convenient and we can get it quickly (if not immediatly)

The simple problem is that there is very little reason to buy most things from GW mail order.  At least at a store you get it that day, but if you're ordering, you might as well get a discount.  This is why GW is trying to stifle internet sales.  Note, they can't ban them outright (until they alter all contracts with their retailers), but they can hinder them.

The frightening thought is that GW might actually know what they're doing here.  They want to support FLGS's (a little, especailly in areas with no GW presence), but kill off mail order or internet orders.

Tabletop games also require a community to truly flourish. By supporting the FLGS they are also trying to support a gaming community that by it's very nature will grow more than people just playing at home. Without those stores a lot of miniature games wouldn't be near what they are now. By supporting FLGS stores they support themselves and create free advertising. Not exactly a bad thing.

Posted By Polonius on 03/23/2007 10:06 AM
As customers, we generally buy from places based on the following factors:
1) where it's cheapest
2) where we can play comfortably
3) Where it's convenient and we can get it quickly (if not immediatly)

None of those factors is my highest priority as a hobbiest.  Buying from a locally-owned store is my highest priority.  Contributing toward the economic health of my community is important, as is supporting the hobby locally. 

Well, it depends. Killing off mail/internet orders would, in effect, be like an across the board price hike for those consumers who purchase from mail order/online discounters. Now I'm no big-city businessman but it seems to me that if you've just watched your unit sales plummet for the umpteenth straight year, the last thing you would want to do is cut off avenues of distribution. Furthermore, if your falling unit sales are, as many believe, the result of pricing yourself out of the market, then shutting down those avenues of distribution used by the most price-sensitive customers would be pure idiocy. So that's what they're probably trying to do.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 03/23/2007 1:27 PM

The frightening thought is that GW might actually know what they're doing here.  They want to support FLGS's (a little, especailly in areas with no GW presence), but kill off mail order or internet orders.

Well, it depends. Killing off mail/internet orders would, in effect, be like an across the board price hike for those consumers who purchase from mail order/online discounters. Now I'm no big-city businessman but it seems to me that if you've just watched your unit sales plummet for the umpteenth straight year, the last thing you would want to do is cut off avenues of distribution. Furthermore, if your falling unit sales are, as many believe, the result of pricing yourself out of the market, then shutting down those avenues of distribution used by the most price-sensitive customers would be pure idiocy. So that's what they're probably trying to do.

As you said, it depends.  Specifically, it depends on where they make their profit, and how much they make.  It also depends on what they are trying to maximize: total sales, or net profits.  The reason their stock is falling, IIRC, is because their sales projections are down, not their net profits.  Sales can drop while profits rise, and vice versa.

Here's a potential way to think about it.  This is purely hypothetical and speculative, but it's a solid possiblitiy:

Let's assume that for every $100 in retail product that is sold (by all retailers, GW makes a 10% profit for manufacturing it (call this $10 manufacturing profit, or MP for later)

Further, let's assume that the average storefront, FLGS and GW, makes a 10% retailer profit, once costs are factored in.  We'll call this $10 the retailer profit, or RP.

Even in this simple model, for every $100 that is sold by a GW store, GW makes $20, while only $10 is made when sold by FLGS.

Things become even more interesting when factoring in Mail Order.  Let's assume a mail order establishment can make a 10% profit even after a 20% discount.  This means that when TheWarStore sells $100 worth of stuff, GW still makes it's 10%.  When the GW Mail Order sells $100, it makes at least $40 ($10 RP, $10 MP, plus the $20 that TWS discounted.)

Lets assume, again hypothetically, that GW drives all internet discounters out of business.  In this hypothetical, let's say that internet discounters sold $1000 worth of retail GW.  This means GW made $100 off of that particular market.  By shifting all mail order to direct only, to make that same $100 profit they would only need to sell $250 worth of retail.  (40% of $250 is still $100)

So assuming GW can retain at least 25% of the market that discounters held, they would still make all the profits, while having far less sales.  It's the joys of vertical integration.

Like I said earlier, this isn't what's happening, or even likely.  It's one possible explanation, using some nice round numbers to show the power of integration.

Your hypothetical discounts are quite a bit smaller than the real ones are, too. We have an Eldar Battleforce that we ordered at 37% discount from a distributor at the store where I work. Factor in whatever discount the distributor gets plus GW's margin added to their costs, and you see that the manufacturing costs are quite small indeed. Being able to sell directly from their website at full retail is VERY lucrative for GW.

PP: exactly! I lowballed the advantage GW has, and it's still staggering. there are a lot of folks saying that GW has a bad business strategy, and I'm just trying to show that they might not. They'er still screwing the veterans, and potentially even driving away new hobbyists, but they might be making a profit.

It's not as simple as GW selling $1,000 of stock from their own site being better than selling the same stock from an indy site and making less profit.

Stocking and transaction costs are higher to GW when they sell from their own site, and reduce the flexibility they can offer. Also, indy sites can offer a variety of "shopping experiences" which will be appreciated by customers. Lastly, stock that GW sells to indies is money in the bank whether the indy can sell it on or not.

BWB's key selling point is you can go there and buy 7 Tau shield generator units, 3 missile pods and the spare metal head from a Commander suit. GW can't offer anything less than a complete sprue.

In the UK there are many more actual GW outlets in easy reach of players, but this does not stop indies from stocking GW nor do GW try to prevent internet sales.

"Lastly, stock that GW sells to indies is money in the bank whether the indy can sell it on or not."

This is NOT how retail works. The brick and mortar store 'hires' ten boxes or Space Marines from GW. Those it sells it pays the balance for the rest they can return. If retailers had to buy all their stock in full before sale they wouldn't be able to be in business very long. Notice how some shops stay in business even with a low turnover of sales, this is because they only pay for a percentage of the stock up front.

There are exceptions, such as perishable goods.

It depends on the type of retail and the relative power of the manufacturer/distributor and the retailer.

GW have a unique product that is supposedly in high demand. They should be in a position to make sales to the retailer final if they want to. I don't know if they do or not. They probably sell on account and accept a certain amount of unsold stock back to redistribute to other areas.

In accounting terms, credit extended to a retailer counts as a balance sheet asset though it is not literal cash.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 03/24/2007 1:40 AM
BWB's key selling point is you can go there and buy 7 Tau shield generator units, 3 missile pods and the spare metal head from a Commander suit. GW can't offer anything less than a complete sprue.

You have placed your digit on the very nub or crux of it.  BattlewagonBits offers a service that Games Workshop does not.

 It's not that they can't- it's that they decided not to.  I am sure GW looked at the idea of hiring some low-cost labor to snip bits off sprues, sort  them into bins, and pick them as individual parts.  (The picking process can even be automated, as long as the correct gubbins always go in the correct bin.)  And I am sure they tought about it for almost five seconds before they said, "Nah, too little return."  Heavens, the stock-shrink from purity seals alone that break (and hence become unsellable) when they are removed from the sprue probably made the accountants go have a lie down.  And rightly so.  Imagine a dishonest employee, in his cargo pants and bulky jacket, smuggling out Defilers by the bit.

I don't think GW is going to shut down BWB because of BWB's business model.  If BWB becomes truly efficient and profitable, GW might offer a partnership or a buyout. 

Posted By Polonius on 03/23/2007 10:42 PM
PP: exactly! I lowballed the advantage GW has, and it's still staggering. there are a lot of folks saying that GW has a bad business strategy, and I'm just trying to show that they might not. They'er still screwing the veterans, and potentially even driving away new hobbyists, but they might be making a profit.

Except their brillant strategy is anything but. You have been looking over their records the last couple years, right? Higher prices, whether selling direct or price hikes seem to be the only thing keeping them in the black.

Becuase they sure arent selling a whole lot, especially in the US.

Posted By carmachu on 03/24/2007 7:50 AM
Except their brillant strategy is anything but. You have been looking over their records the last couple years, right? Higher prices, whether selling direct or price hikes seem to be the only thing keeping them in the black.

Becuase they sure arent selling a whole lot, especially in the US.

That's true, and that's why I keep saying that their sacrificing long term growth (increased sales) for short term gain (keeping profitable).

You said so yourself: higher prices are keeping them in the black, in light of decreased sales. 

Corporations exist for one purpose: to make money for their investors.  GW still pays a dividend, and is still making money for it's investors.  It's decreased sales figures are accounting for it's stock price dropping, which isn't making money for it's investors, but they're not losing money yet either (unless they try to sell their stock).

Would I run a company like this?  No, but i'm not a businessman.  I'm also not trying to say that GW has an uber-awesome business plan that'll make them tons of money.

My sole point is that the relentless "GW has no business sense" rants are at best, misleading, and at worst flat out wrong.

What customers are saying is "me and my four friends have all stopped buying GW at full retail.  Therefore the company is in trouble."  As somebody on Dakka once posted, the plural of anecdote is not data.  And I don't have the data, I actually haven't seen their sales figures, in a while, though I recall them being down.  What's interesting is the continued profitability.

As for decreased sales, all we have is correlation to link reduced sales to higher prices, not causation.  Sure, econ tells us that as price goes up, demand goes down.  What we don't know is how elastic the demand for GW products is.  In other words, if GW goes up in price 20%, do they sell 20% less, 40% less, or only 10% less?  Every hobby has had boom-bust cycles, CB radio, arcade games, home video games, home computers, role playing games, collectible card games, Clix games, etc.  It's possible GW has simply grown to it's maximum size, and is retrenching.  It happens.

Posted By Orlanth on 03/24/2007 3:58 AM
"Lastly, stock that GW sells to indies is money in the bank whether the indy can sell it on or not."

This is NOT how retail works. The brick and mortar store 'hires' ten boxes or Space Marines from GW. Those it sells it pays the balance for the rest they can return. If retailers had to buy all their stock in full before sale they wouldn't be able to be in business very long. Notice how some shops stay in business even with a low turnover of sales, this is because they only pay for a percentage of the stock up front.

There are exceptions, such as perishable goods.

That makes a lot of sense.  A GW store just opened here in Romania.  I was shocked.  Romanians really don't make alot of money, the average person makes less thatn $500/month, but here I was, playing against some kids who had decent sized armies. 

The store itself had all new merchandise and some terrain that was given to them, I got the impression from GW itself.  But knowing what I know about the average Romanian citizen, I was trying to figure out how in the world any Romanian could buy as much stock as was in this store. 

You just answered my question.

-Jmz

No. Just no. No. That is NOT how (most) retail works and certainly not how GW works.

Publishing DOES work that way, book stores can return unsold books to publishers for a refund.

Games and especially GW games do not. If a store has shelves and shelves of unselable LotR stuff or the privious edition of fantasy they are out of luck.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 03/24/2007 1:15 PM
Games and especially GW games do not. If a store has shelves and shelves of unselable LotR stuff or the privious edition of fantasy they are out of luck.

Not exactly true. But then, neither was what Orlanth said.

So far as paying in advance goes, stores that have a trade account with GW don't always have to pay up front... It possibly varies in different countries, or for different sized stores, but I know some stores at least have their orders on account, which means they can be paid off over time, rather than before the stock is received.

Additionally, while the stock is theoretically sold to the store on a no-return basis, from my (admittedly brief) experience working in a games store, GW are generally pretty good about cycling old stock. When 4th edition 40K was released, retailers in Oz were given a chance to pack up their 3rd edition rulebooks and starters and send them back for credit, although this had to be done during a particular timeframe.

It's in GW's own best interests to ensure that stores have the recent releases on hand, rather than having all their cash tied up in old inventory that isn't going to sell...

Posted By Polonius on 03/24/2007 10:33 AM

My sole point is that the relentless "GW has no business sense" rants are at best, misleading, and at worst flat out wrong.

What customers are saying is "me and my four friends have all stopped buying GW at full retail.  Therefore the company is in trouble."  As somebody on Dakka once posted, the plural of anecdote is not data.  And I don't have the data, I actually haven't seen their sales figures, in a while, though I recall them being down.  What's interesting is the continued profitability.

As I said before: you dont know what your talking about.

GW is a publicly traded company. Their data gets posted twice a year. EVERY posting except 2004 keeps seeing a decline in unit sales in the US from the point they pretty much banned internet sales. Thats just plane FACT, not the "me and my four friends dont buy GW at full retail, therefore GW is in trouble."

Last posting or two, slaes have slumped in other areas outside GW. They've borrowed  twice to cover stock profits.

There isnt much profitablility at the moment, only increases have covered them.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 03/24/2007 1:15 PM

This is NOT how retail works. The brick and mortar store 'hires' ten boxes or Space Marines from GW. Those it sells it pays the balance for the rest they can return. If retailers had to buy all their stock in full before sale they wouldn't be able to be in business very long. Notice how some shops stay in business even with a low turnover of sales, this is because they only pay for a percentage of the stock up front.

No. Just no. No. That is NOT how (most) retail works and certainly not how GW works.

Publishing DOES work that way, book stores can return unsold books to publishers for a refund.

Games and especially GW games do not. If a store has shelves and shelves of unselable LotR stuff or the privious edition of fantasy they are out of luck.

That is totally wrong. I know of 2 hobby stores that were able to pack up unsold LOTR and send it back to GW.

Posted By Orlanth on 03/24/2007 3:58 AM
"Lastly, stock that GW sells to indies is money in the bank whether the indy can sell it on or not."

This is NOT how retail works. The brick and mortar store 'hires' ten boxes or Space Marines from GW. Those it sells it pays the balance for the rest they can return. If retailers had to buy all their stock in full before sale they wouldn't be able to be in business very long. Notice how some shops stay in business even with a low turnover of sales, this is because they only pay for a percentage of the stock up front.

There are exceptions, such as perishable goods.

As others have stated, this is wrong. When an independent store, orders from GW, it's non returnable. (exceptions noted below.) In comic/game/wargame/hobby stores in the US, 99% of what you order is non returnable. There are several ways to pay:

1) COD cash. The box arrives, and you hand the UPS driver a certified check or postal money order for the account. Generally, this is for brand new stores with no credit history, or stores that have never dealt with GW before, or who have bounced checks to GW. You can later apply for better terms.

2) COD Check. Same as above, but you can use a company check. Avoids the bank fees, and gives you a few days of cashflow while the check heads to GW and then to your bank.

3) Terms. Generally GW gives 30 day terms. If you get a shipment for 500.00 in stuff on April 13th, they'd like to have a check at their office by May 13th.

4) Extended terms. Store openings, and big restocks. You order 15,000.00 in GW to start your store. You get several months to pay. Something like 3,750.00 down, and 3,750 each month for 3 months. (Screwing this up and being late with a check is a good way to get put on cash COD, see option #1 above.)

Being able to pay your bills on time is part of being in business. If you can't manage it, GW, (and other distributor), will help you out with this by making you a COD account. Some stores prefer this. While it costs more in fees, and you have worse cashflow, it also means no having to keep track of when the bills are due.

It's up to the retailer to decide what he wants to order on new product. By knowing what you can sell, you limit having too much. It's easier to go lower than higher. You can always put in another order for product, it's harder to get rid of an overstock.

RETURNABILITY: Basically there is little or no returnability in the games industry. Buy too many of a DandD adventure, a new card game, or a wargame figure, and you have to figure out how to get rid of it. There are a few exceptions: Some new product that a manufacturer wants to push are made returnable, so that more stores try out the game. Few and far between, but nice when it happens. GW at times will let retailers return out of print product. I've done it a couple of dozen times over the years. When Epic went away, (twice), we returned all we had left, similar for warmaster, necromunda, mordheim, and bloodbowl. I just shipped back 4000.00 in old product, clearing out blisters that will never sell, 6th edition rulebooks, and models that aren't supported anymore. GW is the only manufacturer that does this, and it's made a huge difference in selling their games over the years.

The simple problem is that there is very little reason to buy most things from GW mail order.  At least at a store you get it that day, but if you're ordering, you might as well get a discount.  This is why GW is trying to stifle internet sales.  Note, they can't ban them outright (until they alter all contracts with their retailers), but they can hinder them.

The frightening thought is that GW might actually know what they're doing here.  They want to support FLGS's (a little, especailly in areas with no GW presence), but kill off mail order or internet orders.

What alot of people don't realize is that in some areas it is very easy to get a business license. So Joe Schmo gets a license, calls up GW, gets an account, buys product, puts it in his spare bedroom, and wham....he has a store. He can sell on the net with little work, no overhead, and steal sales from real BnM stores where people play.

GW does nothing to twist people's arms in buying from them directly by phone or mail order. The purpose of the GW store, and the number one purpose of the redshirt ( besides annoying veterans) is to recruit new people into the hobby.

Of course they want to make money. But without the BnM stores, they will go out of business.

Oh, and another one are a group of guys who get together and make a "store"....and simply use it to order gaming product at discount.

Support your FLGS, dammit.

 

In the US, at least, you can't open an account with GW unless you are a B and M location. Not to say people haven't been creative over the years to bypass that restriction. I know of at least one person that took pictures of several stores, inside and out, to cobble together 'his store'. Eventually though, they tend to get caught and cut off. The interenet has made this much easier for GW, and other distributors. BWB did this for a bit, and was cut off, and now gets it 2nd hand. It's one fo their ongoing problems with GW. But that all might be fixed, depending on what they announce next week.

Looks like GW has done it again.

Sounds like BwB will no longer be able to do online bits sales. Must be mail order or over the phone. Additionally, they have to open a brick and mortar store. Check out the news page at bwbits.com.

Curse you, GW. You take a good idea that works, is easy to use, and make it harder and more difficult.

it is a love hate relationship. Love the game. hate the company. 

I am currently a retailer. BW Bits was a great idea! I was totally jealous I hadnt thought of it first.  My only beef was when he started selling boxes on-line.  I pay rent in my store, he lives in Grandmas basement and undercuts me dramatically.  Free Market, yes.  But G-dub doesnt allow it.  He can, and probably does do well solely with bits sales. It would be a shame if GW doesnt let him continue to sell bits.

Posted By mikhaila on 03/24/2007 3:56 PM

RETURNABILITY: Basically there is little or no returnability in the games industry. Buy too many of a DandD adventure, a new card game, or a wargame figure, and you have to figure out how to get rid of it. There are a few exceptions: Some new product that a manufacturer wants to push are made returnable, so that more stores try out the game. Few and far between, but nice when it happens. GW at times will let retailers return out of print product. I've done it a couple of dozen times over the years. When Epic went away, (twice), we returned all we had left, similar for warmaster, necromunda, mordheim, and bloodbowl. I just shipped back 4000.00 in old product, clearing out blisters that will never sell, 6th edition rulebooks, and models that aren't supported anymore. GW is the only manufacturer that does this, and it's made a huge difference in selling their games over the years.

I think that YMMV depending on which GW region you do business in.  While I am not a retailer, I have several close friends who are.  The difference in support that retailers in Canada get is staggering - Just for the record, I've been with the GW hobby for over 10 years and have participated in gaming groups in 6 Canadian cities.  The following seems to be the level of support that retailers get:

1.  You are a successful store in an area where GW has little (or no) presence:  GW is very helpful with orders, special events, terrain etc.  (These areas always suffer the prospect of GW setting up shop - though in the -one- case where I encountered this scenario, the FLGS loyalty was such that GW would get PWNed if they opened up.)  GW seems to take returns of old / overstock items.

2.  You are a successful store in an area where GW has a strong presence:  GW is selectively helpful.  They help out with events, terrain etc.  However, often these retailers will be bumped when there are shortages of new releases.  GW may or may not take back old or overstock.  One of my old stomping grounds has a pile of old (and unsellable) V4 Marine battleforces that GW won't take back - not to mention OOP starter kits.

3.  Woe betide you if you are a startup or are not-so-successful.  These guys are living hand to mouth.  Not only does GW give these guys a hard time for "not supporting the hobby enough and failure to drive sales"... but they don't take returns on OOP stuff... and occasionally ship them un-asked for unsellable bizzaro stuff.  One of the stores I used to visit had a bunch of old OOP stuff (like the kind of stuff GW outlets blow out in their "auctions" ) arrive in one shipment - i.e. unboxed metal OOP models with the store's name written on them in marker.  These weren't freebies, they weren't part of a bitz order, and were on the store's invoice.  Needless to say, GW wouldn't take them back...

Many shop owners won't divulge the direct discount that GW Canada offers but I suspect it is not more than 40%, since ome of them was lamenting over Christmas that they could mail-order certain stuff from Neil (i.e. battleforces and starters) for cheaper than they were getting them from GW direct.  At any rate, I could be wrong, since this is mostly from observation...

Here is what John was referring to:

BWB News

"26 March

Battlewagon Bits Mail Order
Recently we were met by the Vice President of Games Workshop USA. The result of that meeting and the discussions thereafter have led us here at Battlewagon Bits to revise the way we will sell GW product. While GW recognizes the service we do for the hobby, we have both decided that it would be best for us to move forward together with the hobby, and not against it. Legitimacy is key for any business to succeed and grow to full potential, and BWBits is no exception.

Over the next few weeks we will add the ability for you, our loyal customers, to phone, email, or fax in orders for GW items in both finished (boxed) and component (bits) form. You will also be able to purchase GW product from our soon to open BITS BUNKER storefront in Eastern Virginia USA. While you will also be able to order these items from us over the web in shopping cart form, we will not be able to provide that service much longer. We will however continue to sell all of our other items such as Vallejo Paints, Privateer Press Models, Trading Card Games, and many more new items on the internet. We will still sell GW items for the same discount as before, and still provide the same great service to you.

To help with the transitioning of bits sales to Mail Order, we will be publishing a Bits Catalog in the next week or so that will be available for download, or purchase.

We will also be adding "Bits Ninjas" to take orders over the phone, and process email/fax orders. If you live in Canada, France, Ireland, Italy, Spain or the UK, you can email us a request for a callback from a "Bits Ninja" to take your order over the phone for FREE.

This weekend we will be at Adepticon in Chicago, IL playing and promoting BWBits. After our return we will dive right into building a BIGGER and BETTER Battlewagon Bits. Change is in the air, the best is yet to come!

Thank you to all, for the continued support."

 

BWB isn't closing down, it's simply going to be a bit (Get it? Bit!!! I kill me.) harder to order your bitz than it was before.

Posted By John on 03/26/2007 7:02 AM

Looks like GW has done it again.

Sounds like BwB will no longer be able to do online bits sales. Must be mail order or over the phone. Additionally, they have to open a brick and mortar store. Check out the news page at bwbits.com.

Curse you, GW. You take a good idea that works, is easy to use, and make it harder and more difficult.

Sounds like the shopping cart function for GW stuff will go away, do you think that also means they won't be able to post pictures online so we can readily identify what to place in our email/phone/fax/mail orders? I speculate that's what the downloadable catalog will be about.

I agree with the sentiment... the extra hassle will slow things down and create less spur of the moment bits purchasing. I'll still be a fervent user of BWB no matter how much hassle...

I don't know if GW "forced" a BnM location or if BWB already had that in mind... while it's in the same news brief, "Opening shortly" says to me that they've been planning this for a while and are announcing it as part of the advancement of their company (you don't just up and decide to get a physical location in a week... it requires a lot of start up capital).

Grr

Kudos to BWB for working this out with GW. I've enjoyed their service, and I think they encourage the best parts of the hobby. I wish them all the best in their new endeavor, and I look forward to the bitz catalog. (bitz catalog + free printing = a partner for my GW catalog)

It's bloody bollocks is what it is.

Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.

If I got a business licence and put in orders through a distributer like Alliance, could GW do anything to me for breaking down those orders and parting them out online?

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.

Because GW US doesn't allow online sales through a shopping cart, in the belief that this somehow encourages people to buy from B&M stores instead.

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
If I got a business licence and put in orders through a distributer like Alliance, could GW do anything to me for breaking down those orders and parting them out online?

Not directly. I would suspect that they could request for Alliance (or whoever) to stop distributing to you, though. That's assuming that Alliance don't already have the same rules in place as GW US for their trade accounts...

Posted By insaniak on 03/26/2007 1:54 PM

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.

Because GW US doesn't allow online sales through a shopping cart, in the belief that this somehow encourages people to buy from B&M stores instead.

That is just the "justification" they give, it in actuality has nothing to do with that, but rather their blatant desire limit "competition" and funnel online sales to their own webstore (where they get full mark ups!). All I know is that every other company out there (including other vertically integrated game companies) wants to make it as easy as possible for people to buy their products at a reasonable price, even if it means more has to be sold at a lower margin. The result is, ever since their internet sales ban, GW's units sold have plummeted, and profits right along with them. Worse is when one looks at their financials and sees they have been cutting fat left and right across the globe and they *still* posted a profit warning a couple months ago.

I really wonder if GW intentionally is running themselves into the ground. Incompetence can explain things only for so long... 

They actually might be trying to do just that sirs.

If they perform badly, they can file for the UK's version of "involvency" or "bankruptcy" with no intentions of it being allowed, finalized or pushed through...but, the mere act of having the "public company" (held mostly by one man's Trust Attorney) file will allow then to void their incredibly horrible long term contract the the Tolkien Peeps with no penalties for failure to perform.

Once that contract is scrapped, and the main owner has acquired even more % of shares during the "downturn" through his shell trusts, he'll put the pedal to the metal and find something else to screw up

Or they're monumentally arrogant bastards with no clue as to how to deal with intelligent customers like us.

It doesn't void the contract. If they lose the contract they lose LOTR as well.

You think they don't care or know that?

The reason for BWB to open a B and M store is so that they can be in line with GW's rules for direct accounts. A direct account with GW gets you a 45% discount, and account with alliance or another distributor is 30% to 35% discount. Some distributors might sell to someone without a B and M location. GW won't and I don't believe Alliance will either. BWB had a direct account with GW, but was shut down when it was found that the information on their account application didn't quite mirror reality. Since then, they got their GW boxes through other retailers. Getting along with GW means they can regain direct account status, and get shipped product directly to them, not having to smuggle it in, or take a 10% hit in discount.

GW is simply making them comply with the rules that everyone else has to play by. They obviously felt it was time to do that, and be able to grow their business.

Wow the solution sucks ass. Thanks for nothing GW. Mking it HARDER for the consumer to get what it wants is completely unhelpful.

Typical GW. No wonder their sales are slumping.

Not be patronizing, but I think that as gamers, we should be happy that the settlement was as agreeable as it was. From everything I've seen, GW legal plays hardball, and they play for keeps. I'm guessing the negotiations went something like this:

GW: We will cancel your contract to sell our stuff, make sure no distributor will sell to you, press criminal charges for mail fraud (over the misleading info in their contract to be a retailer), and drown you in civil litigation until you simply have no money left.

BWB: Well, we'll immediatly declare bankrupcy, dissolve the corporation (I hope to god these guys weren't a partnership or sole proprietorship), and tell everybody in the hobby why you drove us out of business, so you'll get no money, and lose a lot of goodwill with your fan base.

GW: all right, let's deal!

To use a simpler analogy, in the legal world, GW plays Iron Warriors, and BWB were footslogging orks. And when Orks gain a draw against Iron Warriors, you call it a win and celebrate.

Sure, it stinks. But the sheer volume of how much worse it could have been is staggering.

Posted By Polonius on 03/26/2007 4:20 PM
Not be patronizing, but I think that as gamers, we should be happy that the settlement was as agreeable as it was. From everything I've seen, GW legal plays hardball, and they play for keeps. I'm guessing the negotiations went something like this:

GW: We will cancel your contract to sell our stuff, make sure no distributor will sell to you, press criminal charges for mail fraud (over the misleading info in their contract to be a retailer), and drown you in civil litigation until you simply have no money left.

BWB: Well, we'll immediatly declare bankrupcy, dissolve the corporation (I hope to god these guys weren't a partnership or sole proprietorship), and tell everybody in the hobby why you drove us out of business, so you'll get no money, and lose a lot of goodwill with your fan base.

GW: all right, let's deal!

To use a simpler analogy, in the legal world, GW plays Iron Warriors, and BWB were footslogging orks. And when Orks gain a draw against Iron Warriors, you call it a win and celebrate.

Sure, it stinks. But the sheer volume of how much worse it could have been is staggering.

 

You have not been reading the posts. BWBits had NO contract with GW. They were getting their bitz from other stores.

Its wrong to make someone follow the same rules as everyone else? Enron was run by crooks who stole from people, the same as a man who walks into a convenience store with a gun. Do you think the company execs at Enron  should be allowed a pass?

Better yet...should illegal immigrants be granted citizenship despite committing a felony coming to America? Or should they follow the same rules as people who legally come here? What's right in that case? Are we a people who follow laws, or do we follow the rules of men, in that justice is placed on the scales of whomeever is in power and who deems what is right or wrong based on what benefits them.

In this instance, GW had all the power. BW Bitz had none. The deal made totally benefits BW Bitz  and us.

I found out today that its a fallacy that you can't put pics of GW product online. You can...as long as you are a legitimate store and not an online order business. So that throws out the arguement that GW is stupid for passing up on free advertising.

Can you clarify the last post? I'm not sure what you mean, or if there was a point made or what. I'm not trying to be mean (i'll leave that to other posters, no doubt), but I unfortunatly can't parse anything out of that.

 

BW Bits buy from other store. Sell Bitz.

It OK for BW Bitz to break rules?

Good lord....this has all the makings of a Geico commerical.

Hibz, don't you think you're being a little ignorant? Enron screwed the people, huh, kinda like GW. BW on the other hand helps the people and yet you support slapping them down. As long as we're bringing up way OTT examples to use, why not pose BW Bitz as the American Revolutionaries fighting against the unjust rules of the Brit oppressors for Pete's sake. It's sad that I can say the last time I heard drivel as inane as yours was reading Torreadors comments in the DA thread. Can both of you please take your verbal diarhea over to Warseer where you can fit in with the other GW fanbois?

I maintain that GW's poor performance is exascerbated by their 'we must own every single GW store 100%' policy that eats into their profit margins every single quarter in both running costs and start up capital. Forcing BWB to kill their cart based service (which is pretty essential when ordering LOTS of little tiny bits unlike full boxes or blisters) for bits is simply counterproductive and goes further than forcing them to be inline with everyone else. It makes them less efficient, much more error prone and thus affects their ability to operate as a business providing a much needed service for the hobby as it will take more man hours to take and fill orders, the extra overhead with producing print catalogs that I'm sure will be necessary for mail ordering and the hassle involved will kill some spur of the moment bits sales.

Posted By mikhaila on 03/26/2007 2:57 PM
Some distributors might sell to someone without a B and M location. GW won't and I don't believe Alliance will either.

Alliance will if you fallow all your local zoning laws.

Posted By FlatlanderBoss2.0 on 03/26/2007 2:39 PM
They actually might be trying to do just that sirs.

If they perform badly, they can file for the UK's version of "involvency" or "bankruptcy" with no intentions of it being allowed, finalized or pushed through...but, the mere act of having the "public company" (held mostly by one man's Trust Attorney) file will allow then to void their incredibly horrible long term contract the the Tolkien Peeps with no penalties for failure to perform.

  Err...  didn't they just renew that contract a couple months ago? 

Mr. General Hobbs: I'll be happy to agree with your comparison, as soon as BWB turns the lights out on California because they CAN.

Let's all come back to earth, folks. It's a store that sells parts of plastic dollies, being yelled at for being naughty by a company that manufactures said plastic dollies. Jeez, are the Barbie forums this full of 'tude?

http://www.barbiecollector.com/

You can't view their forums without registering. So I think it's
best that we get an already registered user to scout it out for us.

Hellfury! Where are you?!?

I know what the annoucement did for me - it made me order a bitz order today using the handy dandy shopping cart rather then waiting a couple weeks for payday like I was going to...

Maybe it's all just a big conspiriacy to get people to rush order their bitz online to increase BwBitz short term revenue to boost their bottom line so that they can get a bigger loan from the bank to open their B&M store. It's a conspiracy I tell you!! BwBitz and GW are in cahoots with each other. If we dig deep enough I bet you'll find some alien tech from Roswell is supplying the model manufacturing process. they are probably behind JFK's killing too.

Seriously, while it stinks that GW is making them remove the online shopping cart function, I'm sure that I'll still continue to order from them. It's just a bigger pain in the ass.

Hey, the internet brings out the vitriol in even the mildest user. I know a Barbie collector, and she has a mean streak wider than the empty space in Jervis's head. I'm guessing their forum has vicious flame wars just like ours, only with slightly more women and slightly fewer closeted deviants.

Wow, that was spoken like a true Skipper fan.

~ducks and runs for cover~

Are the B & M stores in North America in that much jepordy that GW has to have the "no internet sales" policy in place?

Any store owners want to share their opinions on that?

Posted By Polonius on 03/26/2007 7:43 PM
Can you clarify the last post? 

 
He means "Be Kind Rewind!"

I'll give short answers, since I'm lacking coffee in my system, and had to fill out order forms for far too much of the night. An analysis of the state of the gaming industry would take pages.

Yes, many Brick and Mortar shops are in trouble, (comic, hobby, game, etc.). There have been hundreds closing up shop each year, and the trend continues. The main thing hurting game shops is the portion of their business that goes to internet discounters. Rising costs of doing business (rent, new taxes, insurance, shipping), competition with Big Box stores like Walmart, Borders, who constantly discount, and a changing marketplace (electronic games), also are each having an effect on business. Older owners retiring and closing up, is also a problem. Shops evolve over the years, many getting larger, deeper inventories, and taking on a personality and distinct feel.  

Newer shops are opening, but they don't replace the older shops in either quality or quantity. Think of it like your gaming club. 5 guys get too busy to come play. Each owns 4 armies, knows the rules, and has played for years. They also own half the club scenery. Two new 16 year olds start showing up with half painted armies. Not a good trade, but it's what you have.

No, GW's dealing with BWB, or with all internet sellers, by itself, won't keep any store from going out of business. Too small of an effect, and too hard to even measure if it does something. The total effect of what GW does is probably helping retailers, and the total of what all game distributors and manafacturers could do would certainly help.

I say 'could', because many don't do anything. Wotc in particular has cut discounts to the direct market, limited product to stores while selling millions of packs off their own website, and dumped tons of product to interenet only shops that sell at 3% above wholsale.

Mike at Showcase

two shops in Philadelphia,

Posted By mikhaila on 03/27/2007 7:11 AM

inventories, and taking on a personality and distinct feel.  

 The total effect of what GW does is probably helping retailers, and the total of what all game distributors and manafacturers could do would certainly help.

I think what would help retailers best is to make a quality product with good rules at an affordable price. But I am a bit naive.....

ender502

 

Posted By insaniak on 03/26/2007 1:54 PM

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.

Because GW US doesn't allow online sales through a shopping cart, in the belief that this somehow encourages people to buy from B&M stores instead.

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
If I got a business licence and put in orders through a distributer like Alliance, could GW do anything to me for breaking down those orders and parting them out online?

Not directly. I would suspect that they could request for Alliance (or whoever) to stop distributing to you, though. That's assuming that Alliance don't already have the same rules in place as GW US for their trade accounts...

1) GW's interest in killing BwB's online sales has nothing do with any altruistic attempt to encourage B&M sales.  Their entire motivation is to encourage use of their own website.  As has been said before, GW makes more money when it sells from its own website than from a retailer's website.

2) GW isn't going to screw around with asking Alliance pwetty pweese quit selling stock to BwB.  They hoit my feewings.  They're going to sue BwB for using its IP on their website.  Using pictures of GW's product to make money can be interpretted as IP infringement.  They've already proven that they can successfully litigate under this claim.

The logic is simple.  BwB directly reduces sales from GW's own website by utilizing GW's own product images on BwB's website.

BwB's only choice to avoid crippling litigation is to remove the images from its website.

To answer Breotan's question:  Yes.  And directly.  If you use pictures of GW product on your website to sell that product, GW will first threaten to sue you and if that doesn't work, they will sue you.  What do you think the Vice President came down there to do?  Help the man pick out paint swatches for his new store?

I'm no economics major but am a businessman. I'm also gamer who enjoys the models, fluff, and rules. That GW prices are high, well, that's the price of wanting to play with toy soldiers. However, as a family man with responsibilities, I work hard for my money. If I can get the same product for less from someplace other than a GW storefront or FLGS, I will. Do I hate GW or my FLGS? Of course not! This is where the economics comes in. If I can get a widget from Wal-mart for a dollar but Target has the same widget for two dollars, where do you think I'm going? That people will pay more for the same product is fine, that's what retailers at different stores count on when they price their products at a level they feel a customer will buy. That's a free market and it's great. Why do you think cars are never really "sticker price" and you've always got to wheel and deal?

I visit my local GW and FLGS at times and will buy based on how I'm treated. Mind you, I'm the one 30+ year old guy that actually walks in looking like I've just left a corporate management meeting. I'm not some teenage punk wearing a Misfits t-shirt with hair in his eyes and enough piercing to set off the airport metal detectors while carrying his skateboard. Even then, I get mumbling or super-pushy salespeople, lack of selection, and downright rudeness. I'm the one that walked in with money in my pocket! Sell me something that isn't a bad attitude. 

So let's tally it up: GW and FLGS with rude salespeople and full price items while being harassed or online store with clean cart ordering system, no hassle, and a discount? Good service and good price are what sells me.

My one disclaimer is the social aspect of the game as some FLGS and most GW locations will allow you to play, which of course is the point of getting the game. I'm cool with that and will buy from them occasionally. But when I want my battleforce and it's $90 at the store or $72 online, you know where I'm going.

If GW's intent was to have me buy from a B&M store, it didn't work. If their intent was to force me to order from their online site or visit their Bunker here in Grapevine Mills TX, it didn't work. 

BWBitz ease of service will be missed. I ordered heavily from them in the past and am currently making a final list of models I still need before the shopping cart goes away if it hasn't already.

 

 

Posted By Maxstreel on 03/27/2007 10:24 AM

I visit my local GW and FLGS at times and will buy based on how I'm treated. Mind you, I'm the one 30+ year old guy that actually walks in looking like I've just left a corporate management meeting. I'm not some teenage punk wearing a Misfits t-shirt with hair in his eyes and enough piercing to set off the airport metal detectors while carrying his skateboard. Even then, I get mumbling or super-pushy salespeople, lack of selection, and downright rudeness. I'm the one that walked in with money in my pocket! Sell me something that isn't a bad attitude. 

Sir, I doubt anyone tries to sell you a Bad Attitude, it's quite obvious you already own one.

Mikhaila, it may be that his only experience with FLGSs are badly-run stores with unprofessional staff.

Posted By Maxstreel on 03/27/2007 10:24 AM

I visit my local GW and FLGS at times and will buy based on how I'm treated. Mind you, I'm the one 30+ year old guy that actually walks in looking like I've just left a corporate management meeting. I'm not some teenage punk wearing a Misfits t-shirt with hair in his eyes and enough piercing to set off the airport metal detectors while carrying his skateboard. Even then, I get mumbling or super-pushy salespeople, lack of selection, and downright rudeness. I'm the one that walked in with money in my pocket! Sell me something that isn't a bad attitude.

As a businessman, one might imagine that the dificulties of running a small business might be understandable.  Even without an economics degree, it is clear that a B+M store location has higher overhead (and thus, higher markup is needed to remain profitable) when compared to an internet warehouse reseller.  Of course, the main way to offset this is by adding value.  Added value include (and are not limited to) provision of a gaming area, setting up leagues, providing a place to meet like-minded gamers etc. 

Unfortunately, the world is filled with short-sighted individuals feel that these are free services which they are entitled to.  Who regularly use these "services" and exhort others to buy product elsewhere - because it would be stupid to spend more money in support of their gaming venue.

Small wonder that the FLGS are struggling with that kind of prevalent attitude.

 

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" width="100%" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="afpostbody" colspan="2">Mikhaila, it may be that his only experience with FLGSs are badly-run stores with unprofessional staff.</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="afpostattach" colspan="2"></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="afpostsig" colspan="2"></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="afposteditdate" align="right" colspan="2"></td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Aye, agreed. I should have put a smiley face or something on that one. I was weak and couldn't help responding to that sentence like it was a straight line.)

I took a trip around Philadelphia a year ago, visiting a lot of game and comic shops that I hadn't been to in years. Since I had grown a beard, got a bit grayer, and put on 10 pounds, I looked different than I had when I saw the owners at retailer meetings. Most of the guys didn't recognize me when I walked in, and treated me like a regular customer.

Several didn't say a word as I went in. Two totally ignored me, even when I said hi. One ass actually laughed in my face when I asked him a question about a game, and went back to eating his sandwhich. The other half greeted me when I came in, smiled, started up a conversation, and generally made me feel happy that I was there.

Different shops, different attitudes. The good ones survive, the bad ones get sucked into the warp.

Though my post may have been misread or my intention unclear, I respectfully disagree with Mikhaila's post about my bad attitude. In fact, Mikhaila, from the professional attitude of your previous posts, I would like very much to have an FLGS with great service as yours seems to imply!

I speak as a consumer who would like great service and great prices. I'm sure many consumers feel the same way. If I can't receive it from one place, then I will look elsewhere.

I'm just one gamer amongst thousands who feels that my money speaks louder than any of my words. I've been a customer of many different FLGS for 26 years, most of them comic book/game stores. I've seen some great ones and unfortunately lately some not so great ones. I spend approximately $200 to $350 monthly on comics, games, toy soldiers, etc. from different local places and online I visit as I truly enjoy the hobby.

I lament that BWbits will be forced to change at what seems to be an unimaginative idea by GW.

Perhaps I was too wordy or derogatory, and for that I apologize. But to simply imply I have a bad attitude is simply too quick and easy of a judgement.

My .02.

Posted By Maxstreel on 03/27/2007 10:24 AM

 

If GW's intent was to have me buy from a B&M store, it didn't work. If their intent was to force me to order from their online site or visit their Bunker here in Grapevine Mills TX, it didn't work. 

 

So what is your point exactly? This was a method to cut down on competition. By your own statement (ordering now while can) it will be effective as it drives away competition.

If you are still buying GW products, where are you buying them?

Posted By jfrazell on 03/27/2007 11:15 AM

Posted By Maxstreel on 03/27/2007 10:24 AM

 

If GW's intent was to have me buy from a B&M store, it didn't work. If their intent was to force me to order from their online site or visit their Bunker here in Grapevine Mills TX, it didn't work. 

 

So what is your point exactly? This was a method to cut down on competition. By your own statement (ordering now while can) it will be effective as it drives away competition.

If you are still buying GW products, where are you buying them?

I believe you got stuck on the wrong part of his post.. he explaines who gets his business very clearly.. it depends on who gives him the best service.. reread his reply and quit trying to be so controvercial.

I used to work in a games store a long time ago. We sold computer games (they were on cassettes back then) and board games like Avalon Hill, etc, plus RPG stuff. We were near the original, now-closed GW shop in Dalling Road Hammersmith.

Anyway, we always treated our customers well because we were nicely brought up middle-class boys and it paid our wages.

That said, I've been in many a GW shop since and particularly the last few years, and the staff have always been helpful and polite. A little bit too helpful sometimes, if you know what I mean. They sometimes come over as a little bit "frothy.' And a little bit sad, though not much sadder than me, I suppose. That kind of sadness is what we all know playing with our little soldiers unless we are still under 15, so let's not cast any aspersions. They train their staff well, in my opinion.

Assuming I've got an audience left by this time I'll get to the point of my post.

GW's key strength is it provides a complete hobby service; shops where you can buy rules, figures, paint and modelling stuff, get advice, play games, join in tournaments and meet like-minded people. Their huge retail chain is undoubtedly a millstone around their neck but at the same time it's a key to their success.

GW US does not have the retail support that the UK does, because the US is a huge country and covering it with stores is going to be a long job, if it can ever be done. So they need to recruit the FLGs as a kind of auxiliary like the Roman Legions had their archers and light troops to supplement the heavy boys.

Accordingly, GW US does not like people hurting their allied FLGSs (that's their job if it has to be done.) And that's why they stamp on people like BWB.

Posted By Rygoth on 03/26/2007 9:45 PM
Hibz, don't you think you're being a little ignorant? Enron screwed the people, huh, kinda like GW. BW on the other hand helps the people and yet you support slapping them down. As long as we're bringing up way OTT examples to use, why not pose BW Bitz as the American Revolutionaries fighting against the unjust rules of the Brit oppressors for Pete's sake. It's sad that I can say the last time I heard drivel as inane as yours was reading Torreadors comments in the DA thread. Can both of you please take your verbal diarhea over to Warseer where you can fit in with the other GW fanbois?

I think you read my post and had a kneejerk reaction without going over what I was saying.

My point is that GW has a rule about selling on the internet that BW Bits was breaking. If you believe they should be excused from following the rules, then you would also believe the Enron execs are not crooks, or people who commit a felony coming to America should not be deported or prosecuted.

I'm not siding with anyone on this issue, just passing on what I understand to be going on. I believe we should follow rules and laws, for an orderly society. Are there bad laws? Yes, and thats what courts and legislators are for.

I apologize for argueing by analogy.

And its spelled fanboys.

Your analogy still fails. BWB did not commit a felony, nor did they attempt to steal from their investors.

If you insist on a 'crime' analogy, Robin Hood would be more appropriate.



I do however see your point. BWB was operating outside of GWs self-imposed rule structure. GW is now forcing BWB to abide by it's rules, just as all other retailers must do. GW has every right to do this as it is their product. BWB has every right to ignore them, but only if they discontinue selling GW product.

If BWB wants to continue to sell GW product, they must conform to GW's rules, it's really that simple.

More like Bill Clinton's statement, "I did not have sex with that woman..." is a better analogy to this situation - "Why, yes, we have a B&M. Can we have our beefy discount please?

Hmmm.Interesting stuff from mikhaila, cheers for that.
I buy Games Workshop stuff from GW in dublin usually, and my D'n'D stuff from a comic store. there is a gaming store, but I don't really like it. Not 100% sure why- all my friends love it, but I think I just prefer a polite but relatively standoffish salesperson. (Could be an Irish thing, we're not mad on the "hard sell")
But this is all interesting.
I would like to see GW do well financhially personally.
I want my hobby to stick around. So many games companies flourish and crash, and GW seem to hang around. That's good for me.

Posted By General Hobbs on 03/27/2007 1:14 PM

My point is that GW has a rule about selling on the internet that BW Bits was breaking. If you believe they should be excused from following the rules, then you would also believe the Enron execs are not crooks, or people who commit a felony coming to America should not be deported or prosecuted.

I happen to believe that BWBits should be excused from following rules that have absolutely no relation to the laws of the land.  Nor are they committing a felony when they act as a secondary retailer.  GW's rules are not laws that must be followed, unlike the laws that the Enron excecs broke.  In fact, GW's rules are quite reminiscent of the anti-competitive behaviour that's supposed to be illegal.

Posted By mikhaila on 03/27/2007 11:01 AM

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Different shops, different attitudes. The good ones survive, the bad ones get sucked into the warp.

its a shame when it happens, but when a store is staffed in such a way, they get what they deserve.

True dat.
Hire 'non jerks' to work in your store. It goes a long way towards keeping the doors open.
Of course if you're not running the place lis a business you won't make it either.

just a question did they ever get there stuff from gw because keshers post seems to imply that they are Opening an account...just wondering is he a liar or are you an friken idiot?

Dude!  Punctuation, Syntax and Grammar are your friends.  Use them!  While not all of us went to a finishing school, we do have a hard time reading "AIM-speak".

So, Zubbie, Hellfury, et al, want to open up an OT Zone Hobby Shop?

Screw GW... BWB invented a niche that did not previously exist. Carved out a market of their own even. Now because BWB does not have the means to defend themselves legally they must bow to the bully.. I say shame on GW. I hope they crash and burn.

Posted By beefHeart on 03/29/2007 11:47 AM
Now because BWB does not have the means to defend themselves legally they must bow to the bully.

Did they try to pay for legal services with money orders?

Posted By Buoyancy on 03/27/2007 4:29 PM

Posted By General Hobbs on 03/27/2007 1:14 PM

My point is that GW has a rule about selling on the internet that BW Bits was breaking. If you believe they should be excused from following the rules, then you would also believe the Enron execs are not crooks, or people who commit a felony coming to America should not be deported or prosecuted.

I happen to believe that BWBits should be excused from following rules that have absolutely no relation to the laws of the land.  Nor are they committing a felony when they act as a secondary retailer.  GW's rules are not laws that must be followed, unlike the laws that the Enron excecs broke.  In fact, GW's rules are quite reminiscent of the anti-competitive behaviour that's supposed to be illegal.

Where did you get your law degree from?

Posted By Bane Lord Tarturas on 03/29/2007 11:31 AM
just a question did they ever get there stuff from gw because keshers post seems to imply that they are Opening an account...just wondering is he a liar or are you an friken idiot?

Its my understanding that they started off getting product from GW, then from someplace else, and the problem with GW stems from 2 facts: 1 they used images of GW product illegally and 2. they were selling product online.

 

My guess is that if they could sell online without infringing on GW's IP then they could get away with it.

Posted By beefHeart on 03/29/2007 11:47 AM
Screw GW... BWB invented a niche that did not previously exist. Carved out a market of their own even. Now because BWB does not have the means to defend themselves legally they must bow to the bully.. I say shame on GW. I hope they crash and burn.

So GW is the bad guy for enforcing a policy designed to help out local BnM stores so people have a place to play at? Gotcha.

Posted By General Hobbs on 03/29/2007 3:32 PM

Posted By beefHeart on 03/29/2007 11:47 AM
Screw GW... BWB invented a niche that did not previously exist. Carved out a market of their own even. Now because BWB does not have the means to defend themselves legally they must bow to the bully.. I say shame on GW. I hope they crash and burn.

So GW is the bad guy for enforcing a policy designed to help out local BnM stores so people have a place to play at? Gotcha.

 Please...  pass me what you are smoking...

Posted By General Hobbs on 03/29/2007 3:32 PM

Posted By beefHeart on 03/29/2007 11:47 AM
Screw GW... BWB invented a niche that did not previously exist. Carved out a market of their own even. Now because BWB does not have the means to defend themselves legally they must bow to the bully.. I say shame on GW. I hope they crash and burn.

So GW is the bad guy for enforcing a policy designed to help out local BnM stores so people have a place to play at? Gotcha.

My FLGS/BnM doesn't break down plastic boxes and sell individual bitz.

Could you please post the address of your BnM so I can get in touch with them for the next time I need a few odd pieces off a sprue?

Really! Show me just how GW is helping out a majority of B&M stores with their policies, please!

Posted By Bane Lord Tarturas on 03/29/2007 11:31 AM
just a question did they ever get there stuff from gw because keshers post seems to imply that they are Opening an account...just wondering is he a liar or are you an friken idiot?

They had an account. Someone from GW became a bit suspicious and tried to find their store. When they drove down and found a warehouse, not a retail store, they were told their account was on hold/cancelled, unless they opened a B and M retail store.  They continued to get in GW product, but by having another party with a direct account order it for them.

The problem with their online site stemmed from the use of GW images,  the use of a shopping cart, and the discounting. These are things that GW stopped other sites from using/doing in the past.

I'm not quite sure about the breaking down of sprues, and the selling of individual bits, or if it violates some rule or not. No clue on that.

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Posted By Bane Lord Tarturas on 03/29/2007 11:31 AM
just a question did they ever get there stuff from gw because keshers post seems to imply that they are Opening an account...just wondering is he a liar or are you an friken idiot?

Its my understanding that they started off getting product from GW, then from someplace else, and the problem with GW stems from 2 facts: 1 they used images of GW product illegally and 2. they were selling product online.

 

My guess is that if they could sell online without infringing on GW's IP then they could get away with it.

</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

the ip thing is real ...but  the fraud thing is a rumor

the ip thing is real ...but  the fraud thing is a rumor

where are ya getting this from?

They had an account. Someone from GW became a bit suspicious and tried to find their store. When they drove down and found a warehouse, not a retail store, they were told their account was on hold/cancelled, unless they opened a B and M retail store.  They continued to get in GW product, but by having another party with a direct account order it for them.

The problem with their online site stemmed from the use of GW images,  the use of a shopping cart, and the discounting. These are things that GW stopped other sites from using/doing in the past.

I'm not quite sure about the breaking down of sprues, and the selling of individual bits, or if it violates some rule or not. No clue on that.

 

where are you getting this from..

Posted By Iorek on 03/29/2007 11:43 AM
Dude!  Punctuation, Syntax and Grammar are your friends.  Use them!  While not all of us went to a finishing school, we do have a hard time reading "AIM-speak".

So, Zubbie, Hellfury, et al, want to open up an OT Zone Hobby Shop?

Absolutely not!

I am so sick of you facking nerds who sweat gouda its not even funny. Those of you whom stink worse than an ork rolled in gefilte fish can stay the hell away from me.

That said, if I were to run a club, it would be by invite only.

That way, I can have alcohol and strippers.

So will it be:

• Alcohol, stripper

or

• Nerd stingk in the one place in the world you will not find any sign of females, or even the utterance of the word "female" without the use of the word "boobies" used not onlt synonymously, but in conjunction with Female.

??

I choose invite only strip clubs. Hell screw game shops, just run a strip club with a chamagne gaming room. But remember, you must first roll for reserves before you can gain access to the champagne gaming room.

It must, becuase they CANT sell bits in a click bin, since GW isnt allowing it. No help to the consumer...

Posted By Hellfury on 03/29/2007 5:22 PM

Posted By Iorek on 03/29/2007 11:43 AM
Dude!  Punctuation, Syntax and Grammar are your friends.  Use them!  While not all of us went to a finishing school, we do have a hard time reading "AIM-speak".

So, Zubbie, Hellfury, et al, want to open up an OT Zone Hobby Shop?

Absolutely not!

I am so sick of you facking nerds who sweat gouda its not even funny. Those of you whom stink worse than an ork rolled in gefilte fish can stay the hell away from me.

That said, if I were to run a club, it would be by invite only.

That way, I can have alcohol and strippers.

So will it be:

• Alcohol, stripper

or

• Nerd stingk in the one place in the world you will not find any sign of females, or even the utterance of the word "female" without the use of the word "boobies" used not onlt synonymously, but in conjunction with Female.

??

I choose invite only strip clubs. Hell screw game shops, just run a strip club with a chamagne gaming room. But remember, you must first roll for reserves before you can gain access to the champagne gaming room.

You'd just get your seven hundred Wraithlord wings then quit.

Quitter.

Posted By Bane Lord Tarturas on 03/29/2007 4:19 PM
where are ya getting this from?

If you're referring to my information, it comes from the person that at the time was in charge of trade sales accounts, and who drove down to see their store. He has moved on from GW to another company in the game industry.

named?

Bane Lord, mikhaila isn't likely to share the name of his source, for obvious reasons.

In the past he's given me no reason to doubt him. I trust the information.

Posted By beefHeart on 03/29/2007 11:47 AM
Screw GW... BWB invented a niche that did not previously exist.

...If, by 'invented', you mean 'saw somebody selling bits on eBay and decided to copy the idea', that is

<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="afpostbody" colspan="2">Bane Lord, mikhaila isn't likely to share the name of his source, for obvious reasons.

In the past he's given me no reason to doubt him. I trust the information.</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="afpostattach" colspan="2">





ok well head of trade sales isn't a cia operative and pretty much public record
no offense intended here but asmodi one person i dont know on the web telling me to trust another person i dont know on the web really doesn't clear it up for me

neither does the i know this guy argument sooo just want to get my facts straight
besides its hard to say that the guy who told him wasn't lying

hard to believe gw wouldn't sue over fraud but will over copyright infringement</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Copyright infringement is much more worth suing over than fraud.

Fraud you're out a few bucks, usually less than it would cost to litigate. Copyright infringement, if not followed up can cause you to risk losing your IP.

It's a much bigger deal to the company than fraud.

I don't think that there is any fraud to see over. GW had a policy of only selling to B and M stores. When they visited BWB, and decided that they didn't have a B and M location, they stopped selling to them directly. Nothing to sue over.

And they haven't to my knowledge sued BWB at all. Read the release from BWB, they don't mention anything like it, just discussions with a GW Vice President. I'd assume that if they did put pressure on them, it would be in the form of a "cease and desist' letter. Very common, one company writes another and says "Hey, stop that". If the actions are stopped, that's generally as far as it goes.

BWB seems to be making plans to expand their business, open a retail shop, and build a better business. They have an account again with GW, and will probably move a lot of their product. That's the basis for a good working relationship.

I've given out the information that I have, you can believe it or not. I'm assuming that you're associated with BWB, based on your posting history. Your first post was basically an ad for them selling WM/Hoardes, then you got real interested in this thread. If so, you know who came down to visit you. If your not associated with BWB, and just a groupie or something, then you really have no need to know names, do you?

i dunno about that ....i mean im not a lawyer but fraud i believe is a felony where as copyright infringement is a civil court thing

that being said i really dont know much about corp law

i do know that if you acuse somebody of something you should be able to back it up with facts
not i know an un named guy

mikhaela whats your axe to grind with bwb anyway?

i live near them /bought things from them

if they claimed to have a b and m store and didnt
then that would violate any contract made with gw that is
which as i understand it and correct me if i am wrong but that is fraud

It's not really an issue of corporate law (that usually refers to things like capital structure, shareholder protections, incorporation procedures and regulations, etc.). This is more simple commercial law. There's both civil and criminal fraud in most places.

Simply mis-stating on your retailer sheet that you have a storefront is unlikely to be egregious enough for the Crown/DA to want to charge you criminally. It's simply not worth the time unless you're flagrant about it or there's other issues involved. In practice anyway. Technically they could still go after you if they wanted.

For civil fraud (under whatever particular name is most relevant), you'd need to actually show damages.

Not legal advice mind you, and the situation varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Not sure what you mean. I don't have an axe to grind with them at all.  It's a forum, people discuss things and throw out information, ask questions. I had some information on the situation and threw it out.

hmm been a long day maybe i misread your tone if so i apologize but i really have had good exp with these guys maybe got a little overzealous anyway i dont think there going anywhere i hope not anyway

hoping they start selling skelly bits wanna base my warcaster for warmachine with bones

Posted By Asmodai on 03/29/2007 8:09 PM
Copyright infringement, if not followed up can cause you to risk losing your IP.

That's a restriction on trademarks.  You don't have to enforce your copyright to keep hold of it.  It's yours from the time you publish till 75 years after your death without any requirement to register or defend it.

Bane Lord Tarturas, if you post your shipping address I'll mail you a keyboard that has working shift keys.

got em to lazy to use em

Points for honesty!

We need to ship him some vowels too!

The entire discussion was not whether or not BWB was good or bad, it was why GW was going after them. No one really has it in for BWB, not even GW really. The problem was that they were doing things online that GW does not allow other companies to do online. BWB became high profile enough that GW finally checked in on it all, and told them to follow the rules everyone else has to abide by. No big deal really. Everyone has to follow them at the moment. So now BWB can still do business, and they aren't getting away with something that other businesses can't do.

What would be for sale on the OT store?
I can guess but usualy just wandering into the wastes will see you geting it for free.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 03/30/2007 11:44 AM

So, Zubbie, Hellfury, et al, want to open up an OT Zone Hobby Shop?

What would be for sale on the OT store?
I can guess but usualy just wandering into the wastes will see you geting it for free.

Eye patches (most definitely NOT for pirating)
Soiled ninja outfits
Crackers
Claw hammers
Kosher bread
Pictures of "bunbun" (both the bunny suit and the piercings)
Calamari...LIVE calamari...LIVE GIGANTIC calamari...
pirated clips of television shows produced at the butt crack of dawn slipped in with single frames of penis


You figure out how it works.

Bane Lord Tarturas: Here is some Inside Information 101. Never give out your sources, never give out your sources, never give out your sources, never give out your sources, never give out your sources, never give out your sources.

Why?

If you really need to be told.

1. Someone asking might have a reason to ask, if so more than likely they are the last person who should be told. Anyone 'just curious' doesn't need to know. Say the source was named, lets call him Bob Jackson, what is that to you. Can you source him yourself to verify the info?

2. A source might not want to be outed on the internet, even if there is no danger to himself. Its downright rude.

3. Sometimes, in fact a lot of the time the source does have something to lose. I have posted inside stuff before, I had an in depth look into Ogre Kingdoms a month before release, and posted whatr I read here. No way would I say who lent me the book.

4. If a source has moved on and appears to have nothing to lose guess again. If they have moved elsewhere in the industry (or to be honest anywhere) the new employers might not appreciate a staff member who has a history of giving out inside information.

5. So you are harmless with the information and can be told. No legal issues from you blah blah. You may or may not have noticed (requirment: IQ 60 or higher) that you arent the only person reading these forums.

The ONLY time you mention a source is if they ASK you to credit them with the information, for reasons of their own.

Give your brain a chance.

all very true x-cept he identified his source as the head of trade sales in the past so


1 gw can't fire him he doesnt work there anymore

2. its a singular title so it really isnt that hard to identify since the head of trades sales is a customer service type job identification i could call gw and ask who was the head of trades sales last octobereen and probably get an answer from a secretary

thanx for playing

Then do it. You are starting to sound like a gvment employee. If you have ever posted on ANY board that has to deal with rumours, you would realize sources are only outed when they want to be. Anything else is very poor manners.

Let it lie.

Posted By Buoyancy on 03/29/2007 9:02 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 03/29/2007 8:09 PM
Copyright infringement, if not followed up can cause you to risk losing your IP.

That's a restriction on trademarks.  You don't have to enforce your copyright to keep hold of it.  It's yours from the time you publish till 75 years after your death without any requirement to register or defend it.

You are also displaying extreme ignorance on the subject of IP law.

Yes, you have to actively defend your IP or you can lose it.  IP /= copyright.

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/03/2007 9:18 AM

Posted By Buoyancy on 03/29/2007 9:02 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 03/29/2007 8:09 PM
Copyright infringement, if not followed up can cause you to risk losing your IP.

That's a restriction on trademarks.  You don't have to enforce your copyright to keep hold of it.  It's yours from the time you publish till 75 years after your death without any requirement to register or defend it.

You are also displaying extreme ignorance on the subject of IP law.

Yes, you have to actively defend your IP or you can lose it.  IP /= copyright.

I'd suggest that you re-read the sentence I was responding to.  He specifically states that he is referring to copyright infringement.  You will not lose your copyright on an item if you do not defend it.  You will lose your exclusive trademark if you do not defend it.  You don't have to defend a patent to keep it.  All three forms of IP, but all have very different rules.

Got it. A confusion in terms. My apologies.

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/03/2007 9:39 AM
Got it. A confusion in terms. My apologies.

No problem.

For Mr. Tartarus.

Credibility Rule #1.

When possible, please refrain from using sentence fragments with no punctuation. An internet forum is not a chat room.

EDIT:

Actually, instead of Credibility, substitute, "If you are a new forum member and would like to be taken seriously, please refer to"