I apologize if this has been done to death, but I'm really having problems with it. Basically, other than the monolith, the falcon (and fireprism) seem like the only vehicles/units in 40k that resistant to damage. I mean,I think if I'm willing to do something stupid like fire *everything* I've got at the damn things, it damn well *should* explode, even if that kind of focused fire is a bad idea... and that's true with just about every other unit in the game. With falcons, though, killing them seems like a statistical improbability at best.

I play speed freeks, mech guard, and godzilla bugs. What are my best options in each list for downing them? Do I just throw a lot of twin-linked rokkits/multilaser shots/devourer beetles at them and hope for a stun? Because basically, you need to roll boxcars on the glancing table to down it, as far as I can tell.

I mean, seriously... 3 dakkafex, 2 gunfex, and both tyrants, combined, have around a 40 percent chance of taking it down, and that's with everyone somehow miraculously shooting at the rear... and I'd think godzilla would have the best shot out of anyone.

just shake/stun one and move on to the next skimmer. no need to use that much firepower.

Lets look at it this way, with one of the best things you can use for anti-tank in the game, a Marine with a Lascannon, you have less than a 5% chance to kill a Falcon or Fire Prism w/ Holofields.

Essentially, if you can glance it, you have an 11% chance of it going down. So if you can get around 9 or 10 actual glances on a Falcon, you should be able to take it down, but you know how well statistics work out in a game.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/07/2007 4:29 PM
Lets look at it this way, with one of the best things you can use for anti-tank in the game, a Marine with a Lascannon, you have less than a 5% chance to kill a Falcon or Fire Prism w/ Holofields.

Essentially, if you can glance it, you have an 11% chance of it going down. So if you can get around 9 or 10 actual glances on a Falcon, you should be able to take it down, but you know how well statistics work out in a game.

Yes, and assuming your calculations are right (11%), if you hit the Falcon 10 times with said Lascannon, there is a 69% chance you will destroy the Falcon.

Mez

So the solution to take 20 Lascannons in a Marine list (30 in a Guard list) to reliably knock down a Falcon a turn?

I'm only half kidding.

And the Wave Serpent is just as difficult to bring down. The only saving grace is they have to move slower to disembark units.

As has been said you glance it once a turn to stop shooting and then ignore it, it's all you can really do now that it can't be stunned.

Rear armor assault cannons will do the trick pretty well too.

Glance it back to the stone age with S6 multi-shot weapons.

This was very frustrating for my opponent yesterday. His Mech Tau vs my Eldar. My two Falcons survived the entire game w/o any damage. However, one got to fire in the first turn, and once again in the last turn. Otherwise, they were shaken and unable to fire.

The upside for my opponent was that we played an Alpha mission where VP's were not a factor, just scoring units. We ended up tieing.

I guess my point is to simply stop it from shooting unless you really are in need of VP's. Then, get the Swooping Hawks, lots of S6 weapons (tank hunting Hvy Bolters for you Marine players or assault cannons). Then, bring your loaded dice to get the double 6's needed to destroy it.

Posted By coredump on 04/07/2007 9:29 PM
And the Wave Serpent is just as difficult to bring down. The only saving grace is they have to move slower to disembark units.

Some bad info in this thread.  Wave Serpents die to 1/3 of Glances, or 1/6th with Vectored.  But at least with Vectored the thing's grounded, you have half points, and the squad inside is now less mobile.

S6 guns were also not a great recommendation.  S7 guns have literally double the odds of doing something.  If S6 is all you have, you do what you have to, but you're going into a gunfight with a knife.  There's a reason the Checkmate Hobbies team which won the Adepticon Team Tourney used IA Autocannon turrets on their Chimeras instead of Multilasers, and that reason is Skimmer Tanks.

Falcons die to 1/36 Glances with Holofield and Vectored, or 1/12 if lacking Vectored.  But again, even with the Vectored engines, you're stopping the thing and getting points 1 Glance in 12.

A Falcon with Holofield, Spiritstones, Vectored Engines, Scatter Laser, and Shuriken Cannon underneath is just over 200pts.  Its firepower is mediocre for the cost, particularly given its BS3 and the fact that it can't ignore Crew Shaken anymore.  What it does better than anything in the game is survive, move to take objectives, and drop a small squad where you need it to go.

Generally your best bet for fighting Falcons is to start with that one Glance each turn.  Stop it shooting.  That's not hard to get and at least means there's 200pts of the Eldar army not actively killing you for a turn.  Move on and Glance the next.  Do this until all their guns are silenced.  Again, possibly 600pts+ of Eldar not actually killing you.

Every turn, gauge exactly where your shots are going.  Any shots that can actually kill or cripple a different unit after the Falcons are all Shaken, put them on those more vulnerable units.  Anything spare?  Go ahead and dump it into a Falcon.  You have to get lucky to drop it, but when you do, the Eldar army has just taken a kick in the soft bits.  They've lost one expensive scoring unit, and have high odds of the transported unit ALSO becoming non-scoring, as 75% of them will be wounded being dumped out. 

Tactically, watch the distance to the Falcons.  It's a closed-top transport, so the squad can't assault out unless they disembark before it moves.  So you always know the threat range of the unit inside.  Pay attention to it.  Don't be afraid to move a unit if you need to in order to get it out of the danger zone.  Thanks to it being closed-top, you have a turn's advance warning before an assault.  Fire Dragons may pop out and shoot in the same turn the Falcon moves 12" in any direction, which does give the Eldar player lots of options for that shooty strike.  You just want to make sure you have another unit positioned to annihilate the dragons once they pop out.  T3 4+ save, 16pts, folks.  Erase them.

Falcons are tough, but the rest of the army is much less so, and the threat of the Falcons can largely be contained with moderately skilled play.

Specifically for your armies, Zach:

-Rockets with ammo runts for orks
-Autocannons and plasma for guard (autocannons are the biggest threat because of the combination of range, volume fire and strength)
Zilla nids: carnifex devourers are str8 multishot, right? That would be good except that the range is so short that a falcon will have an easy time avoiding it.

Before the 4th edition skimmer, you used to kill tanks with high-strength, single-shot weapons (meltas, lascannons). But skimmers don't care how much AR penetration you get--it's just a glance. So you have to stop thinking in terms of the amount of AR penetration and think instead about maxing up the number of glancing hits you get. Strength 7-8 multi-shot weapons (with long range since the falcons are more mobile) are best at that.

Also once it's grounded (assuming vectored engines) you can penetrate it with guns or assault it with multiple high-strength HtH attacks.

Get your glances in with multi-shot weapons. Your chances are better than they look. If you shake it ignore it, its a problem next turn. By far the most glancing hits you get will shake it, and shake it again. So extra firepower is largely wasted.

Really I only need to do better than that if it is carry something very nasty, or you get a lucky shot on the first turn that does something other than shake it.

If you immobilise it, its as good as dead. Who cares if you have vectored enginesd, next turn it gets penetrated. Shake it for now and then ignore it, its your victim.

Weapon destroyed results sort out Fire Prisms but are ironically one of the worst results you can get on a Falcon as it can still move and fire with everything else next turn. Better to shake it and shoot at something else.

As the Orks, I have no real idea. Gunz batteries, maybe? Dakkafexes and Zoanthropes all the way for your zillas, you might even try a large number of shooty warriors with s6/7 weapons.

I play Guard, too, so I have a better idea for them. All the way use either:
Chimerae multilasers, Autocannon/Plasmagun infantry squads, or Autocannon Sentinels.

All three can reliably get hits -- the extra shots on the Chimea make up for its slightly lower strength. If you play against Eldar enough, you might even consider a specialized "falconkiller" unit of 3x Autocannon Teams with crack shot and camelioline.

-Adso

Orks- massed Rokkits are your only real hope. And occasionally assaulting with power klaws. Orks have the worst chances in the game against skimmer tanks.

Bugs just throw Venom cannon and Devourer shots at them. Anything with better than S6. S6 is almost always better off firing at something else.

IG- same deal. Autocannons, Plasmaguns... anything S7+ and preferably multishot. AV12 is a last resort for anything S6. The extra shots don't nearly make up for the vastly inferior chance to get that vital Glance.

Chaos has about the best unit in the game for killing Falcons. 4 Autocannon Havocs with Tank Hunter. 8 shots, hitting on 3+, glancing on 4+.

I also fear exorcists. If you take cost and mobility into account, a pair of exorcists might even rival havocs as the best falcon-killer in the game.

Devourer shots max out at S6, yet they are the best the Nids have really, since the DevilFex gets so many of them.

1 devilfex (ES only) 113 pts (1 glance)
6 Warriors (TS, ES) with 2 VC and 4 deathspitters, 194pts (1 glance)
3 zoans with WB (only)165pts (1.13 glance)
many more biovores than you can have.N/A
HT (ES, TS only)with VC and TLDeath 157pts (1.3 glance)
HT (ES, TS only)with TLVC 177pts (1.33 glance)

Good point about the S7. I've gotten so used to S6 as my main army now is Eldar (and it is so easy to get S6)

My Chaos army of old had 4 Autocannon/Tank Hunters Havoc squad. The autocannon was a very good weapon against Mech Eldar/Tau. However, depending on terrain, Havoc squads can become quite mediocre. Playing my Eldar with a fair amount of terrain is a very difficult issue for my opponents.

Keys for me nowadays are how much mobility and high strength guns can I get. I've nearly all but abandoned move or shoot units.

Ah, then they are nearly useless against falcons. All the firepower of a dakkafex--assuming it can even get range--will only produce 1 or maybe 2 glances. Like with non-tankhunting assault cannons, that's just not enough.

how's about a flying dakka tyrant in the rear? 12 S5 shots to rear armor should get about 4 glances...

Otherwise, it's really up to the seven venomcannon shots to do the work... and with 3 falcons flying around, that's not a lot of firepower

also, is there any way to get havocs in a lost and damned list? With mark of slaanesh maybe?

"how's about a flying dakka tyrant in the rear?"

Uh....

yeah, I should have caught that

If I think anything might be able to shoot the rear of a falcon, I skim around the edge of the board with the rear arc facing off the table (with a couple of inches of emergency disembarkation space if there's anything in the falcon). That's also standard procedure when deepstriking terminators are expected.

I recommend loaded dice.

That or big brass ones to throw at 3-falcon players

In all honesty, previous posters are right--unless you absolutely need the VPs, you're better off shaking it and moving on.

Posted By Orlanth on 04/08/2007 6:53 AM

If you immobilise it, its as good as dead. Who cares if you have vectored enginesd, next turn it gets penetrated. Shake it for now and then ignore it, its your victim.

Here's something I've been trying to figure out with my gaming group: if you do manage to immobilize a falcon, do any further shots that turn count it as still "moving fast" or can you now penetrate it? P. 69 "Skimmers moving fast" talks about mobile skimmers... suggesting once it is immobile, you can start penetrating immediately it because it has ground to a halt. Thoughts?

Cheers!

It refers to the last movement phase. So you'd have to wait to the next turn to start penetrating.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 04/08/2007 10:19 AM

Devourer shots max out at S6,

Ah, then they are nearly useless against falcons. All the firepower of a dakkafex--assuming it can even get range--will only produce 1 or maybe 2 glances. Like with non-tankhunting assault cannons, that's just not enough.

Unfortunately, that is the best we've got.

Even VC/BS Carns will only get 1.08 glances a turn, and are more expensive. (Though longer range.)

That is why DumBuket was complaining to begin with, against 3 falcons with the re-roll, it will take 3 of our fexes just to keep them from shooting back. Now, an elite fex is cheaper than a Falcon with stones,holo field, vectored engines; so I guess it works in our favor.... in a way....

RAW says you can now pen the skimmer but expect arguments.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/08/2007 5:50 PM
It refers to the last movement phase. So you'd have to wait to the next turn to start penetrating.

But that is for a "mobile skimmer"; since they went to the trouble to distinguish it as a mobile skimmer, it seems to be different than an immobilized skimmer.  Otherwise, they would (should?) have just said "skimmer".

So I would say that any subsequent shooting can penetrate.

Now, the trick question, what about shots from the same model? Same unit?

Yeah, by RAW the skimmer can be penetrated from the moment it's immobilized. I play it this way.

But all shooting from the same volley is resolved together, so only shooting from subsequent volleys can pen the immobilized skimmer.

No, as all shots happen at once and when the guys from the same unit shoot it is still mobile.

Godzilla Nids are really the only army that can hold it's own against the 3 Falcon list. I played mine this weekend and destroyed all but one Falcon. He killed most of my little bugs and one single Hive tyrant with his snakes on a plane then I ate them up. Other than the Zilla list try a sledge hammer.

Aside from lucky shots, how does a Zilla list consistently take out a 3 falcon army?

Devilfex 1 glance per turn
Gunfex 1 glance per turn
Devil tyrant 0 glances per turn
etc.

Those glances consistently prevent the Falcons from firing, however, which means that the Eldar are denied a goodly chunk of their anti-MC weaponry. And you only have to get lucky a time or two.

They wipe out the rest of the army while the falcons fail miserably at killing carnifexes.

Tyrant with VC/Dev -> glance
2 gunfexes -> 2 glances

Then you shoot your dakkafexes and assault with your winged Tyrant and the rest of yoru dudes.

Normal Eldar is a pretty fair fight against the dakkanids.

when the game gets tough:
Your opponent is running 30 pathfinders with his 3 falcons and fire dragons (god I hate that list)
Your opponent puts fire dragons in the falcons and uses long range guns with the rest of his list.

Not really an avid 'Nid player, so slightly different question from me:

How do you deal with falcon heavy armies as Tau?  We generally play very terrain heavy cityfight, so it's hard to get much direct fire at the Falcons until they're right up close.  They usually carry something that'll prove a fairly bit threat up close (Scorpians, Dire Avengers, Flamer-heavy Storm Guardians, etc.) and love to tank shock anything out in the open (i.e. Crisis and stealth suits trying to hide behind buildings).  Little less than a 50% chance for a tank shock to send the team running.  So, given the 3d6 jetpack fallback and the fact that my Tau are usually fairly close to the board edge against a charging opponent, I tend to lose nearly as many models to falling off the edge as I do to shooting.

By my estimate, a full Crisis team has maybe a 4-5% chance to destroy a falcon at point blank range (assuming it can't get rear armor), so the assault troops inside usually pop out and wreak havoc.  Or, in the case of dire avengers, Bladestorm a flank and hop back in the Falcon next turn.

The really painful part is the tank shocking.  I've had a single falcon destroy a devilfish, and tank shock two full squads off the board in a single turn before.  So unfortunately, the "shake 'em and ignore 'em" tactic doesn't work so well when they can still destroy (or at least disrupt) a flank with Tank Shock and when the cargo they carry (usually assault troops) can seriously hinder a flank as well.

Considering Eldar mostly have to focus on beating Tyranids after the nerfed Chaos comes out those Pathfinder units are going to be pretty good.

Ion heads & missile pods--all multishot str7 weapons with good range and decent BS. Whenever I play against a Tau army I expect to see at least 4-5 of these weapons, sometimes more.

The least useful Tau weapons against falcons are the ones that were popular before the new Eldar codex: fusion, plasma and railguns. Single-shot weapons will get a glance (if they hit) but will not typically permanently hurt a falcon.

Actually I think that the falcon rules are turning out to be healthy for the game. They force all-comer tournament lists to diversify more:

-Tau players can't just max fusion, str6 plasma and railguns anymore
-Necron players now pretty much need heavy destroyers
-Space marines can't depend on non-tankhunting assault cannons to do everything for them

The traditional zilla nids are just going to have to find some way to follow suit if they want to actually kill falcons.

I think the Zilla lists are doing the same. The old 'take all comers' lists are really 'take all marines' lists. And were not suited for dealing with zilla. As the lists evolve, zilla will become more managable. Same with Falcons.

I think Zilla lists (and Nid lists in general) can do okay against a falcon eldar list; I just don't understand the assertions made about it being easiest for the Nids.

There really isn't much way to kill the falcons for a Nid player; but you can destroy the rest of the army, and go from there.

Back to the origional question, I'd add that any damage you can do on the first turn (i.e. before they move) is key. I don't think that's been mentioned yet. For instance, an indirect bassie that manages to hit has a very good chance (comparitively speaking) of destroying a falcon. I'm not really up to speed (pun intended) on Speed Freaks, but if you can pull a first turn charge then do so. You probably won't though, since he'll know that and deploy accordingly. I did see a 13th company list massacre two falcons on the first turn with some of their scouting bikers.

Well that's the problem with Eldar & Falcons. The conventional wisdom is "Shake it, Move On to the Next" which works well for Grav Tanks that rely on shooting to do damage.

But if you come up against someone who's relying on Grav Tanks to shoot, get ready for an easy game. Falcons are great because they're an indestructible transport, putting the nastiest assault unit in the game (Harlequins) in your lines with next to nothing you can do about it.

Sadly, I don't have much of a way to stop that. If I know my opponent is running it, I'll try and keep something fast like speeders behind terrain and then zoom out to block the access hatch, forcing the Eldar player to redeploy the Falcon to get the payload out. After that, I've got nothing.

And this is why my new motto when I play against the Taxi list is F*@# Eldar.

But the wave serpents are almost as tough. And I don't worry about the assaulting that much, because they must wait a turn. But they can drop off shooters in the same round. That concerns me.

They don't have to wait a turn if they disembark before the Falcon moves. The only reason I'd take a unit of Fire Dragons over a third unit of Harlequins is if I was running out of points and had nothing else to sacrifice.

Therion's got it right. The whole problem isn't so much the shooters. Firedragons are only good for blowing up a (conventional) tank, against Marines they'll kill a few, especially in Cover, they're not even that great against Termies, because you'll probably have a few termies left over, who will probably have assault cannons, and will proceed to gun down the Firedragons or assault them and laugh.

It's delivering the assault troops that are the real worry about falcons. The only problem is that 3x Falcons and 3x6 Harlies works out to a bit of points and you can fit it into your FOC, but you're going to struggle to find decent anti-tank at the same time. Still if 2/3's of your armies points are near indestructible until they want to get out of the flying fortress and assault, then you're probably sitting pretty.

The best way to kill a Falcon is hope that the tournament organizers didn't include enough terrain to hide 3 big Skimmers in a deployment zone and then pray for first turn to blow one up.

See, this is the difference between armies.

Playing Nids, I am not nearly as concerned about them dropping off an assault squad. Assuming the falcon/serpent moves into position on turn 2, I have a turn to prepare for them. Either put gaunts in closer, block the rear ramp, move away, or whatever.

I am much more concerned about the shooty units that zoom up in their transport, dump out the unit, and rapid fire my poor, helpless, misunderstood stealers before they can assault.

Somethng most dont know about Falcons is that they are very bad at shooting once you consider the points.

In other words. You wont remove that Falcon from an objective easily, but so struggles your opponent to kill your stuff. In the end at worst you both contest the objective which is a pretty ballanced draw.

Your opponent cant field Falcons exclusivly so your best bet is to shoot his more fragile units. Also if he fields 3 you have good chance to spot some, should you get first turn.

In this problematic case the Eldar player should of course deploy all his grav tanks in one corner, hugging the table edge and most likely limiting a lot of the enemy firepower by being out of range.



It's pretty hard to move away from troops that can disembark 2", move 6", fleet D6" and assault 6" but in some cases it's of course possible. Fact just is that if your Nids are running away from the wall of Falcons you're losing the game bigtime and sooner or later the Harlequins pop out, kill a couple big guys and massacre move into even more Nids.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/10/2007 7:07 AM


It's delivering the assault troops that are the real worry about falcons. The only problem is that 3x Falcons and 3x6 Harlies works out to a bit of points and you can fit it into your FOC, but you're going to struggle to find decent anti-tank at the same time. Still if 2/3's of your armies points are near indestructible until they want to get out of the flying fortress and assault, then you're probably sitting pretty.

The best way to kill a Falcon is hope that the tournament organizers didn't include enough terrain to hide 3 big Skimmers in a deployment zone and then pray for first turn to blow one up.

Or if the transport capability is more of a problem than the killing it, then hope there is a healthy dose of escalation, the transporter starts of board and the transportee hugs cover hoping the taxi arrives before something that can kill him.

Posted By puree on 04/10/2007 4:16 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/10/2007 7:07 AM


It's delivering the assault troops that are the real worry about falcons. The only problem is that 3x Falcons and 3x6 Harlies works out to a bit of points and you can fit it into your FOC, but you're going to struggle to find decent anti-tank at the same time. Still if 2/3's of your armies points are near indestructible until they want to get out of the flying fortress and assault, then you're probably sitting pretty.

The best way to kill a Falcon is hope that the tournament organizers didn't include enough terrain to hide 3 big Skimmers in a deployment zone and then pray for first turn to blow one up.

Or if the transport capability is more of a problem than the killing it, then hope there is a healthy dose of escalation, the transporter starts of board and the transportee hugs cover hoping the taxi arrives before something that can kill him.

You should read the rules for what a Shadowseer does for a unit of Harlequins.

Unless you're a drop pod army and those Falcons don't turn up, you're really not going to get the chance to shoot the Rending Clowns from Outer Space unless your opponent is a moron.

Ha ha ha I play Necrons and I find it fairly easy to kill a falcon as a unit of warriors rapid firing is easly enough to glance it to death. I find that the new rules really don't affect me much as I had to glance them before anyway. And as for a prism don't you just destroy its cannon then leave it till you have somthing to spare to shoot at it.

For me the falcon/falcons are usually the last things left on the table and the I tend to find they really don't stand up to massed gauss fire very well at all.

Remember, moving away was just one option mentioned. I can also interpose a tarpit unit, or can move to/assault the rear of the transport. The transport will have to move before they disembark, thus no assault.

In all, I am more worried about shooty units coming out of transports.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 04/09/2007 10:14 AM
Yeah, by RAW the skimmer can be penetrated from the moment it's immobilized. I play it this way.

But all shooting from the same volley is resolved together, so only shooting from subsequent volleys can pen the immobilized skimmer.

The wording in the codex causes an issue. The rule is worded as if they intended the "immobilization" event to "resolve" at the end of the shooting phase. The example that comes afterwards only causes confusion. The most concrete line of argument is the BGB "mobile skimmer" argument, which is why most decide to settle with that.

In my opinion this makes vectored engines overpriced, but still better than going without them.

Unless they clarify the vectored engines upgrade in a FAQ, the most likely interpretation is the immobilized=immediate pen. threat.

Your Eldar opponents aren't playing as smart as they might. Glancing gauss weapons are an issue (a unit of 10 warriors rapid firing scores nearly two glances) but falcons have the mobility to avoid that for the most part. Also smart Eldar players will cover the back hatches with bikes or vypers--which also prevents destroyers in front of a falcon from jetting 12" over for a highly-effective rear shot.

As a last resort, I often use tank shocks from other grav tanks to clear blocked hatches so the passengers can disembark before the transporting grav tank moves. It's another reason why star engines are great--clear hatches with tank shocks in the movement phase, then move away to a safe position in the shooting phase.

Here's the Vectored Engines Entry:

Vectored Engines: The vehicle can turn its
engines to almost any angle, allowing the
crew to circumvent disaster when damaged.
If the vehicle would crash due to being
immobilised, it instead makes a forced
landing as if it had not moved that turn.

I don't see the intent for after the shooting phase resolution. It seems like a fairly straight-forward If-then string. If vehicle is immobilized then it lands and doesn't count as having moved (ergo can be penetrated by the next unit that fires upon the grounded falcon). Am I missing something? If they had intended for all shots to be resolved against a mobile skimmer, the Vectored Engines should have stated that it comes to a landing at the end of the shooting phase.

Doesn't matter if it counts as having moved or not.

The key passage is in the "skimmers moving fast" rule in the main rulebook. That passage says that the skimmers moving fast rule applies to "mobile skimmers" that moved more than 6" in the previous turn (emphasis added).

An immobilized skimmer is obviously not a "mobile" skimmer, regardless of how fast it moved in the previous turn. So the skimmer moving fast rule doesn't apply to a skimmer anymore once it is no longer mobile.

Yeah... we've already established that. I'm searching for the weird wording ColonelEllios was talking about in the Vectored Engines entry.

Anyway, aside from missile pods and ion cannons, are there other good tactics to use against eldar to help my Tau friend succeed against our local eldar player? Jpgil_galad plays a quasi Fish of Fury list, if that helps.

As Tau?

If he's got 3 Falcons, that means he's got 3 squads riding along for delivery. It's either going to be Fire Dragons or some kind of Squad that wants to assault you.

Mech Tau can nicely run away from the assaulty squads, and should have a very easy time keeping the Falcons shaken, to keep the Tau on Fire superiority for the game.

After that, shoot the hell out of whatever else he has outside the falcons and go for VP denial (since he's doing the same to you, but you should be able to out shoot him.

Just don't let yourself get boxed in by the falcons, so you have to deploy wisely - ie deploy in such a way that he can't throw down three Falcons in a perimeter to box in the majority of your suits with no where for them to run away.

You also have a lot of skimmers, possibly more than the Eldar player will due to the fact that Wave Serpents aren't all that great. Because of this you can try to use your own skimmers to block the rear access hatches of his Falcons to prevent assault troops from coming out and assaulting that turn.

If he's got Fire Dragons on there, they'll disembark and shoot either a tank or some Suits. At that point, try and weather the shots, hope he doesn't score more VP's in his volley than the squad cost, and then nuke the dragons the following turn. If all he can get them on is skimmers, then you may be alright. Remember though he has to move 12 to disembark his shooters that turn, so you may be able to out manuver him.

The only upside to Mech Eldar is that if he's got 3 Falcons and 3 Squads riding (most likely Harlies) then he's going to have a hard time taking out enemy skimmers, since anti-tank is sparse. Use this to your advantage.

FOF is actaully the best way to down a falcon.

If he has assult troops he has to move the falcon very close to your units to try and catch them (12 in move is only a little slower than 12+fleet).
If you leave your fish on the outside of your flanks you can usually get a drop on the rear of a falcon and 24 shots + shots from fish can down it with prety good consistency.

Other than that, just scatter your army. The rear has to point somewhere and if he is always hugging the walls he is severly limiting the uses of the guys inside.

Best Suggestion: SHAKE and BAKE. Shake the Falcon and bake the rest of the army with your shooting.

It used to be STUN and DONE as to wait for the Falcon to be STUNNED and then it would be DONE next turn by penetrating hits.

SHAKE and BAKE.

It must be true, because it rhymes.

I prefere THINK and DRINK:  think about how to kill a Falcon, then drink your way to happiness!

Lost and the Damned cannot take havocs (this was asked on page 3, and I can't be arsed to go back and see who it was).  The best solution I've found is to take a pair of Obliterators and mayhaps one or two six-man Chaos Marine squads with tank hunter, autocannon and plasma.  I still haven't actually PLAYED my list yet, but I have a feeling it will still be owned by mech armies.

Ladies and Gentlemen see the Eldar Flacon in this year's most thrilling movie: Death Proof

Just don't hassle that Raider with the Wyches in it, is all I'm sayin'.

There really is only one way to kill a falcon and it's not a very elegant or original solution. Simply: Shoot the snot out of it and hope the dice gods are kind. That's it.

Cause as many glances as possible and hope for that magical double 5+. In the meantime you have to stay nice and clear from it - out of fruity space clown range/ block the hatches or tank shock it away with preds/ Hammerheads etc.

The question, really, is what the most efficient way to inflict those glancing hits is. The principle of neutralising falcons is clear -- it's the practice which is depressingly complicated.

I think the army with by far the worst time of it is Orks, be they footslogging, speed kulting, or raving lunatics with spears. As we've said, the easiest is probably Chaos or Necrons.

The trouble with the spread of mechlists is that the stanard metagame set up used to be packing in lots of melta, plasma, and las power to deal with monoliths, Russes, assault cannon termies, and deep striking marines.

Now armies ALSO have to figure out how to incorporate high-volume, middle-strength firepower without nerfing themselves against the heavier stuff -- not a fun proposition by any means.

Does this seem like an accurate read to you all?

-Adso

I play Necrons also, and Falcons are easy meat for the boys in chrome. There's nothing like veiling or porting a squad of warriors into rapid fire range and putting the gauss guns to work. Between that, immortals,and the destroyers I field wholesale, Falcons don't last very long into the game.

Posted By BrotherAdso on 04/14/2007 6:09 AM
The question, really, is what the most efficient way to inflict those glancing hits is. The principle of neutralising falcons is clear -- it's the practice which is depressingly complicated.

I think the army with by far the worst time of it is Orks, be they footslogging, speed kulting, or raving lunatics with spears. As we've said, the easiest is probably Chaos or Necrons.

The trouble with the spread of mechlists is that the stanard metagame set up used to be packing in lots of melta, plasma, and las power to deal with monoliths, Russes, assault cannon termies, and deep striking marines.

Now armies ALSO have to figure out how to incorporate high-volume, middle-strength firepower without nerfing themselves against the heavier stuff -- not a fun proposition by any means.

Does this seem like an accurate read to you all?

-Adso

I think you're missing the point actually.  The problem isn't so much the Falcon itself anymore.  The Starcannon is Heavy 2, and expensive.  The Falcon is BS3 maximum, it used to be a *female dog* because it shot massive AP2 death at BS4, possibly Guided.  And it transported stuff, but it was primarily a gun boat since you could mostly count on it to fire and exposing it was dangerous since you could manage to "Shake" it which meant it was dead if you got enough glancing hits.

Now, it's shooting is pretty bad if it gets used, and it's super easy to keep it from shooting.  The problem with Falcons is that they deliver squads where the Eldar player wants them, when he wants them, with very little you can do about it.  Between Harlies & Fire Dragons this is the main problem.   And honestly it's near impossible to stop unless you can run away from them, and in the case of Fire Dragons, even that doesn't work so well.

Now, you could shoot your entire army at the tank in one turn and you'll be lucky to get a gun off the thing, let alone pull it down.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, each glance is an 11% chance of downing the sucker.  So that takes 9-10 Glances to do it, if Statistics works - per tank.

As far as changing the Meta game, it's not going to do a thing.  You don't need lots of medium strength shots to down the Falcon.  You want lots of sure-fire glances.  Which means more Lascannons.  An assault cannon (without Tank Hunters) is equal to a Lascannon in terms of stunning a Falcon.  Autocannons are worse (though they become ungodly good in the hands of Havocs with Tank Hunters).  Your answer to putting those grav tanks down isn't more medium strength guns, it's just more of the same - Las/Plas + Assault Cannons. 

The way to beat the new Eldar is to see how many squads they're throwing in the Falcons, and which ones will hurt you the most.  If you're running lots of tanks, Firedragons are about to make your game go very bad.   If you're just about anything, look out for the Harlies, because they'll hurt.  See this and deploy accordingly, making it hard to lepfrog from CC massacres and setup counter moves/shots, hoping he wipes out whatever he charges. 

Give yourself an idea how hard it is to pull down those tanks - take 2D6 and start rolling, count how long it takes to get a 5 as the lowest number on 2D6.  It will be a high number on average. 

This is the point, and the brokeness of the Eldar dex, he has the ability to put squads where he wants, how he wants, pretty much when he wants too.  The way you win is to see what he's got and you learn to deploy and move in concert to what he does and use the simple fact that he can't disembark if he moves more than 12" with the tank.    You really just have to outplay your opponent, even more so than usual.  I've beaten the list a few times, but the players weren't all that experienced.  I've had times where I lost to the list, despite being a better player than my opponent; some missions (Secure & Control) are just nighmares to play against Mech Eldar.

Assuming a holo-field and spirit stones

One glance hit will....

75.0% Crew Shaken
13.9% weap dest
8.3% Immobilzed
2.8% destroyed

Talk about the ultimate points denial....

with all the upgrades, vectored engines, spirite stones, holofield, its more like a 3 percent chance to bring it down. lets say you are a space marine with a lascannon, than the odds of you bringing it down 1.2 percent.

Voodoo is right. Unfortantely 3 Falcons can take little or no Tactical thought to even in a Cleanse mission force a tie with little to worry about. I usually dont like relying on luck to win games and rather through my own playing.

Wheres tactics when you need them when your a 13th company army facing a 3 Falcon eldar list?

If you play 13th Company you already know you've got a gimmick list with minimum antitank.

3 Falcons is a bit excessive. But it's still three scoring units. Any army with a good number of scoring units can still win or draw. Everything else in the Eldar army only takes a moderate amount of killing.

Maybe easy pickings if the Eldar player is slowed.

If you veil into RF range of that Falcon, you are averaging what 3 glances? That's okay, but still probably not going to kill it. Maybe if you can pour all you destroyers and immortals in too.... And that takes out maybe 1 falcon. Then guess what happens- out pop the FDs who melt you and clowns who eat your squads. Not a great trade.
Otherwise, the grav tanks can stay at the fringes and pick things off while ramrodding assault units where they need to be. Massed gauss fire is certainly a threat, but no insta win by any stretch of the imagination. If they can draw a veiled unit away from the rest of the army, that unit will die. If it takes the res orb down, the necrons are probably quickly on the way to phase out from angry space mimes.

more like 4.444~ glances with 40 gauss flayer shots.

Also, its important to note that the veil of darkness does not require the Lord to be joined with a necron unit before, during, or after the teleportation, meaning you can have him stuck in the middle of a blob of 20 warriors and be completely unaffected by whatever happens to that squad.   Its not like being in a squad gives him much of an advantage in hth anyhow.

How do you kill them with Orks?
Spray and pray, or ignore them until the harlies/fire dragons get out and then try to envelop them with boyz?
I mean, if a space marine with a lascannon has a 1.2% chance, what chance do even 4 rokkit launchas in a tankbusta squad have (especially since the bastids can sit out of your puny range.)

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/15/2007 12:28  You don't need lots of medium strength shots to down the Falcon.  You want lots of sure-fire glances.  Which means more Lascannons.  An assault cannon (without Tank Hunters) is equal to a Lascannon in terms of stunning a Falcon.  Autocannons are worse (though they become ungodly good in the hands of Havocs with Tank Hunters).  Your answer to putting those grav tanks down isn't more medium strength guns, it's just more of the same - Las/Plas + Assault Cannons. 

If you are after sure fire glances then the autocannon isn't worse than lascannon and AC.  The chances of glancing in a turn for those weapons is (at BS4):

lascannon = 44.4%

autocannon = 39.5%

AC = 37.6%

The basic AC is actually the worst at 'sure fire glances'.  Over the long term all 3 weapons average the same the number of glances, but the AC trades reliabilty of something for a small chance of mulltiple glances per turn.

If you add tankhunters onto those weapons then the list reverses, and they no longer have the same mean average:

lascannon = 55.5 % (av .555)

autocannon = 55.5% (av .666)

AC = 63.5 (av .888)

With or without tankhunters the autocannon is not that bad compared to the other 2 weapon you mention.

As an aside, if range isn't an issue - and if the falcons are rushing you with harlies on board it possibly isn't, then melta weapons are quite good with a basic 61% of a glance at under half range, better than a rapid firing plasma. If you are tailoring for falcons maybe consider a las/melta squad, with tankhunting termie donkey cannons.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/10/2007 2:40 PM
How do you kill them with Orks?

You don't.

If it's a fully mechanized Eldar army, you're pretty much screwed. Against more balanced lists, you're better off mostly ignoring the Falcon and killing the rest of the list.

Hmmm. Okay, that's what I thought. Sorta like the mechanised tau problem, but worse because certain elements can out assault you.
I generally ignore falcons until the cargo pops out, then deal with the cargo. (And this was before the new codex, haven't played eldar since.)
Seems a bit stupid to make an option an entire army has no chance against but that's the way it goes.

It's not just orks, It is just damn hard to take out a falcon. Even armies that are 'good' at it, suck at it.

Sorry I haven't read the whole post but in this weekend just gone, I lost my first game as Eldar in 4 editions (mainly due to bone headed play against a solid opponent).

What I didn't bank on was that he had his squad of Havocs with 4 heavy bolters all armed with Tank Hunter as well. A great tactic that I totally didn't expect, as I simply thought 'ah, heavy bolters there for soft infantry kills'.

No unit is unbeatable.

Lets see....

4 heavy bolters

12 shots, 8 hit, 1.333 glances
Roughly, there is a 40% chance he shoots at you *all game*, and never gets an immobilize or destroy.

If he took you out in a turn or two, he was very lucky.

He indeed immobilised me in one turn.

Interestingly, this was a game where I dwelt too much on the statistical probability of certain dice rolls and often came up short when the results deviated from the norm. I've learned my lesson. Math-hammer is not how I should play - I should have used my usual tactics of evasive maneuvers and delivering overwhelming force to a limited part of my enemy's lines.

Then again, failing three consecutive unmodified morale tests by a Harlequin unit has left me somewhat bitter...

lol.. i know the feeling... its as if the dice-gods are aware of your fiendish predictions, and decided to throw them in your face!!!

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I've had a lot of luck with my Alpha Legion's tank hunting autocannon Havoc squads.  I reliably get 2-3 glances from each squad per turn.  My tactic is to simply keep them shaken so they can't shoot, then proceed to fire at other elements of the army with the rest of my army.  I keep the Havocs back and screened by the rest of my army to limit their vulnerability to assault.

What has usually happened is that whatever is in the Falcon gets out and gets one good turn of action before they are eliminated the next turn.  The fact that the Falcon has such a limited carrying capacity means that even the nastiest units they can carry are terribly vulnerable to a single turn beat down.  The exception is Harlequins who get stuck in combat.  They have to be worn down by  a good old fashion dog pile.  Nasty they may be, but still...there's only six of them and they're T3 with 5+ save.

Sal

Posted By coredump on 05/31/2007 1:05 PM
Lets see....

4 heavy bolters

12 shots, 8 hit, 1.333 glances
Roughly, there is a 40% chance he shoots at you *all game*, and never gets an immobilize or destroy.

If he took you out in a turn or two, he was very lucky.

Or you could look at it as 14% chance per turn of getting an immobilise/kill, whilst it is subjective I wouldn't call that 'very' lucky, lucky maybe, but getting a 1 in 7 is going to happen often enough to warrant acceptance of it and a backup plan. Those 4 Hbs are identical to 3 assault cannons vs falcons - and with a longer range to boot.

For C:SM facing falcons the 4 tank hunting heavy bolters in a dev squad is almost as good as 4 normal lascannons (18% of same result per turn) in a dev squad, but a substantial 65pts cheaper (for a 5 man squad). Definatly worth considering if you are up against falcons, they even have the bonus of being nice against most eldar foot troops should the eldar try a switch.

Posted By puree on 06/01/2007 1:58 PM

Posted By coredump on 05/31/2007 1:05 PM
Lets see....

4 heavy bolters

12 shots, 8 hit, 1.333 glances
Roughly, there is a 40% chance he shoots at you *all game*, and never gets an immobilize or destroy.

If he took you out in a turn or two, he was very lucky.

Or you could look at it as 14% chance per turn of getting an immobilise/kill, whilst it is subjective I wouldn't call that 'very' lucky, lucky maybe, but getting a 1 in 7 is going to happen often enough to warrant acceptance of it and a backup plan. Those 4 Hbs are identical to 3 assault cannons vs falcons - and with a longer range to boot.

For C:SM facing falcons the 4 tank hunting heavy bolters in a dev squad is almost as good as 4 normal lascannons (18% of same result per turn) in a dev squad, but a substantial 65pts cheaper (for a 5 man squad). Definatly worth considering if you are up against falcons, they even have the bonus of being nice against most eldar foot troops should the eldar try a switch.

SHHHHH!

Puree!

Youre gonna convince people that heavy bolters are the new cheese!

Posted By Hellfury on 06/02/2007 9:00 AM


Youre gonna convince people that heavy bolters are the new cheese!

Uh- yeah.

Just to be on the safe side, tankhunting heavy bolters can't penetrate a falcon even if it sits still - so obviously they aren't that good.

Just adding my 2 cents to the numerous stories abour unkillable falcons:

I was playing this afternoon with my LatD against Eldar, and even though I butchered the poor aliens, I had to wait 6th turn and I had fired about 5 Autocannon shots, 6 Lascannon, 2 Melta, 6 twin-linked plasma, 2 earthshaker shells, 4 reaper autocannon, 3 Defiler cc attacks at it and it is only with 24 Daemonettes rending attacks ( who auto-hit as the Falcon had landed after immobilisation on the 5th turn) that I eventually destroyed the bugger  :|

I shot at falcons so much that they only shot the turn they came on the board and never again. I killed one too. And I put devilfish in the way of my units so they couldn't tank shock them.

Broadsides are the kings of anti-falcon.

I thought of something. I'm starting tau, and I just realized that a skyray paired with some pathfinders (which I'm going to take anyway for the markerlight synergy) could fire all 6 of its seeker missiles at the thing, potentially on turn one. Hitting the front or side, that's a good 5-6 hits and 3-4 glances/pens.

Posted By dumbuket on 06/12/2007 10:47 AM
I thought of something. I'm starting tau, and I just realized that a skyray paired with some pathfinders (which I'm going to take anyway for the markerlight synergy) could fire all 6 of its seeker missiles at the thing, potentially on turn one. Hitting the front or side, that's a good 5-6 hits and 3-4 glances/pens.

Now you just need to hope he has the falcon out in the open where you can target it....

Just worked out couple of broadsides shooting for a couple of turns have a 25% chance of killing a falcon.

Posted By onlainari on 06/16/2007 6:16 AM
Just worked out couple of broadsides shooting for a couple of turns have a 25% chance of killing a falcon.

But the idea is that on turn 1, you have enough range out to reach out and touch it.  Pop them before they start moving.  If it isn't in cover.  And if you get the first turn.

Not terribly reliable, but that is the idea.  The Turn 1 Turkey Shoot, as I refer to it.

With Raveners!

Last night I managed to pull it off with three rounds of 2 Raveners clawing at the thing. 22 S4 rending attacks (with the help of 3 Warriors), followed by 10 S4 attacks on the rear armour after the Falcon evaporated the Warriors. Got about 4 hits, no glances. Last turn another 10 Ravener attacks on front armour, one hit, rolled a 2 for the glance, then double sixes! Bwahaha.

Ok, not mathematically too likely I suppose, that was 4 out 5 dice coming up sixes. Though really it was 4 out of about 50 dice when you count all the missed attacks and less than glancing hits. Just happened to be the *right* 4 dice!

Just gloating, please go back to your regular programming now.

Posted By dumbuket on 06/12/2007 10:47 AM
I thought of something. I'm starting tau, and I just realized that a skyray paired with some pathfinders (which I'm going to take anyway for the markerlight synergy) could fire all 6 of its seeker missiles at the thing, potentially on turn one. Hitting the front or side, that's a good 5-6 hits and 3-4 glances/pens.

think of something else

the skyray has 1 job to do and that is anti-aircraft. unless your in a game with flyers it is the worst of all  heavy choices for a tau army. its a forgeworld design and they have an anti-aircraft platform in every army list to give you a chance in games including flyers. someof these AA mounts are good at multiple jobs like the hydra or the eldar firestorm falcon variant. unfortunately the skyray is not. it has 6 big shots of limited ammo, a  smart missle system and 2 mobile marker lights. if you do shoot your wad in turn 1 it spends the rest of the game as a mobile marker light and not a main battle tank.

Posted By mughi3 on 06/21/2007 5:19 AM

the skyray has 1 job to do and that is anti-aircraft. unless your in a game with flyers it is the worst of all  heavy choices for a tau army. its a forgeworld design and they have an anti-aircraft platform in every army list to give you a chance in games including flyers. someof these AA mounts are good at multiple jobs like the hydra or the eldar firestorm falcon variant. unfortunately the skyray is not. it has 6 big shots of limited ammo, a  smart missle system and 2 mobile marker lights. if you do shoot your wad in turn 1 it spends the rest of the game as a mobile marker light and not a main battle tank.

Compared to what, A hammerhead? Which has 1 big gun and an sms. It will also potentially shoot 6 times in most games, except where it gets stunned/weapons destroyed/kiiled, in which case it will not even get those 6 shots off.  The fact that the Skyray has limited ammo is of little practical significance, it has as many shots as most other big guns will shoot in a game. The ammo isn't as heavy hitting, though that is somewhat offset by the ability to front load all 6 shots up front.  IN a 6 turn game you get to do the following

hammerhead :

6 rail gun shots + 24 sms attacks

SkyRay:

6 seekers + 24 sms + 12 markerlights.

If you want to compare then look at the difference between the better gun against the ability to frontload damage, markerlights, no LOS requirement and points spent.

 

 

I vote for front loading damage

Posted By puree on 06/22/2007 5:27 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 06/21/2007 5:19 AM

the skyray has 1 job to do and that is anti-aircraft. unless your in a game with flyers it is the worst of all  heavy choices for a tau army. its a forgeworld design and they have an anti-aircraft platform in every army list to give you a chance in games including flyers. someof these AA mounts are good at multiple jobs like the hydra or the eldar firestorm falcon variant. unfortunately the skyray is not. it has 6 big shots of limited ammo, a  smart missle system and 2 mobile marker lights. if you do shoot your wad in turn 1 it spends the rest of the game as a mobile marker light and not a main battle tank.

Compared to what, A hammerhead? Which has 1 big gun and an sms. It will also potentially shoot 6 times in most games, except where it gets stunned/weapons destroyed/kiiled, in which case it will not even get those 6 shots off.  The fact that the Skyray has limited ammo is of little practical significance, it has as many shots as most other big guns will shoot in a game. The ammo isn't as heavy hitting, though that is somewhat offset by the ability to front load all 6 shots up front.  IN a 6 turn game you get to do the following

hammerhead :

6 rail gun shots + 24 sms attacks

SkyRay:

6 seekers + 24 sms + 12 markerlights.

If you want to compare then look at the difference between the better gun against the ability to frontload damage, markerlights, no LOS requirement and points spent.

 

 

you forgot to add a few qualifiers

1.effectiveness-

hammerheads can switch munition either doing a tank killing single shot or a non scattering pie plate for horde killing. making them more versatile in situations where you cannot change lists.

2.maker lights and seeker missles-

your forgetting the fact that you have to make 2 different rolls to hit with those marker lights. first off if your infantry is doing the marking the only hit half the time(on 4+) and then you have to roll again on a  2+ to actually hit with the seeker. if it is from the tank it is 3+ then 2+, judging from the number of one-shot wonders i have used in my armies over the  years the double roll really reduces the effectiveness of the shooting. that time you roll the 1 you have just wasted 1 of the limited 6 shots that you have during the game, and thats not even considering if you use random game length in the mission your playing.

3.weapons strength and units role-

the seekers are a S8 AP3 while this may be enough to down a few marines it finds itself lacking in several areas being hard pressed to wound high T creatures, force invul saves on 2+ save models, and most importantly, punching through moderate to heavy armor is lacking. sure you could glance AV14 with a roll of 6 but it isn't very likely and you'll never get a straight pen. even AV 12 only gives you around a 50/50 chance. if your roll is tank hunting the hammerhead is better, if your roll is MEQ killing, the ion cannon is better, if your roll is anti-aircraft the skyray is better.,

Just ran some numbers, for 60 pts, you can take a warwalker with 2 scatter lasers (sorry if this is in pages 3-5)...

If you use the cheap WW with 2 scatter lasers, it can get 0.666667 glances a turn (on average), compared to 0.444444 for a lascannon, and at a significant cost reduction. added to that, you now also have some serious hoard killing capability depending on what you need to kill...

OK, so maybe it isn't as wonderful shot for shot, but point for point, i think it will probably turn out better.

Posted By mughi3 on 06/23/2007 3:08 AM

you forgot to add a few qualifiers

1.effectiveness- ...

2....

3...

I didn't really forget them , I did say the hammerhead had a better gun, and yes that includes munitions etc. My post was about those who claim only 6 shots make it useless, a generally mute point as its the best a hammerhead will do unless the game goes beyond 6 turns. So yes you need to compare the points you make above to the benefits of front loaded damage, mobile markerlights etc.

The skyray is a nice vehicle, I wouldn't class it as better or worse, it goes well with some tau lists whereas the hammerhead fits better in others, and broadsides would be better in yet other lists. Horses for courses.