Ok, so DA vs. Nidzillas came up in the post-Adepticon report thread.  I have played 2 games w/ my DA so far, one vs. Gaurd at 1500 pts that I won pretty handily, and I lost against a Nidzilla force at 1000 points that had 2 Carnifex's, a flying Tyrant, a unit of flying Warriors, 2 units of small stealers, and a unit of hormagaunts.

The above list notwithstanding, how can DA beat a Nidzilla list.  I don't want to hear "Just use C:SM, its better."  I play DA, need ideas to use w/ them.

My current thoughts are lots of combat squads with plasma guns and powerfists, maybe with the other combat squad with lascannons or plasma cannons (or not having the second squad at all), backed up by a vet squad with powerfists and melta guns.  A Pred. Destructor or two to take out any of the smaller bugs/warriors and to draw fire from the big bugs.

Tactics would be to split into combat squads and shoot the big bugs with the plasmas and lascannons, smaller bugs with preds, then when they get close, use the powerfists to pummel the bugs.  Here I see combat squads as a bonus as it give a lot of targets and if one unit is tied up, there are a lot more still freed up.

Do you think that would work and/or what are your ideas and tactics for using DA to beat a Nidzilla force.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

"Just use C:SM, its better."

Posted By Longshot on 04/10/2007 12:18 PM
"Just use C:SM, its better."

I was asking for that... :(

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Even at 1000, I have a hard time looking at 1 HT and 2 Carn and calling it NidZilla. That is like saying any list wth 2 tanks is Armored Company.

I've been doing some thinking myself about getting a DA list going, and Nidzilla has crossed my mind (though, honestly, I'm the only one in my group who has nids to play... so I guess it's a moot point).

My general idea has been 3 combat squads--2 with razorbacks or rhinos and one or two devastator squads, potentially with razorbacks. If you make a couple razorbacks have lascannons, then they've got the range and mobility necessary to plink away at the fexes. Venom Cannons are still dangerous, but usually not prolific in Nidzilla, from what i understand.

I use powerfists in a couple of combat squads, and power weapons in others. I'm not sold on 15pt plasmaguns and pistols, yet, so I usually kit out with flamers (they can't assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle anyway, and flamers help against little bugs like stealers and gaunts). Stat wise, 3 plasma gun shots should = 2 hits, and maybe 1 will wound... I may just come back later tonight and do the math breakdown for each weapon... that's always fun.

Devastator squads split in half are the way to go. by putting lascannons in the combat squads, you can throw other cheaper stuff in here--heavy bolters are a good all-around weapon, as are missile launchers. They're not very good at taking out carnifexes with carapace, but they'll work on warriors and other priority targets.

The advantage you've got is Nidzilla fexes are slower, and theoretically you can drive a razorback around a lot to keep it out of range of most big guns.

I like dreadnoughts too, especially with a heavy flamer. I wonder, however, if three minimal squads of assault cannon landspeeders wouldn't be better at throwing bullets at fexes. 12 potentially rending shots is nothing to sneeze at in a round of shooting... and they might just get glazed over in the fuss for the lascannons or razorbacks

The flying tryant is the really scary part. A command squad could take a bunch of power weapons and fists and survive a round against a carnifex, but the initiative of the tyrant makes assault brutal. I suppose all las/plas should go there first.

I dunno. It looks like the solution will be playing your army with the discipline of an orchestra director rather than a grunge metal guitarist in his garage.

Well, he had about 18 small guys and 2/3 to 3/4 of his points in bigger/medium guys, at 1000 points that's pretty tough (especially as I was expecting a horde army).  2 tanks in 1000 points could be less than 1/3 of his points.

Plus, if you read right below it, I was more curious about Nidzilla's in general, hence the "The above list notwithstanding..."

@Geddonight:

I am wary about using Speeders, Nids seem pretty good shots with all the twin-linked stuff, seems too easy to hit and destroy the speeders. I like the Razorback idea, using mobile Lascannons to stay ahead of him.  I don't think the flamers will ever get used if fighting a Nidzilla force.  If you want an assault weapon, wouldn't a meltagun be better?

I'm fairly inexperienced vs. Tyranids in general as they aren't a popular army round here. I'm relying on all you dakkites out there.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Take a greyknight grandmaster with either a pyscannon or powerfist/chain fist, mastercraft the str 6 force weapon and add a +4 invu save for taste.

He will be able to kill a TMC every player turn he is in CC.

But if you don't want to take a greyknight grandmaster go with a squad of termies 4 lighting claws 1 ac, azriel for the group 4+inv save, the deathwing grandmaster with 2 lighting claws to add a banner on the squad so everyone gets +1 attack. That squad will also be able to woop up any nid unit that gets close.

Hmmm... I like the Azrael plus Terminator idea.  I'm not sure on the LC as they'll have trouble wounding T6, but Azrael, Belial, and about 10 Termies could put a real dent in his plans as he will have little AP2 weapons...

Add some Tactical Squads and some Predators and I think that could stand a chance.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

tyranids can put a nasty combination of cheap low point troops and cheap low point 4 wound creatures together in a 1000p list. And the best model (flying hive tyrant) is also a scoring unit!..

very hard to kill with 1000p marines...

Try to pick the best cheap shooty units the DA codex can provide. Dont spend to much for close combat units because tyranids can field much better (cheaper) units for a 1000p army. Dont get a big lord that can be killed in one blow.. I think my list would be about....

master of the ravenwing land speeder 205P
predator with twin linked lasc and heavy bolters... 130P
predator with twin linked lasc and heavy bolters... 130P

5men tac squad (about 90p??) lascannon 15p plasmagun 10p = 115
5men tac squad (about 90p??) lascannon 15p plasmagun 10p = 115

the rest of the points can be spend on one heavy shooty troops in a razorback with a powerfist.. but I also like the 3 individual multi melta landspeeders ....

Two Devastator squads.

Either both with 4 Lascannons a pop, or one with 4 Lascannons & one with 4 Missile Launchers. Combat squad them out. Honestly it's better to go for the Lascannons since it's so much more worth it over the ML, especially against Nidzilla, but you could scrape by with the ML's in one squad.

IF you use Tactical as troops, give them a plasma/melta and a PF sarge and maybe a rhino, run them up and assault the crap out of them after shooting.

Reguardless, your HQ should be the Master of Ravenwing on a Speeder, because he's actually good.

Extra points maybe go into an assault squad or speeders.

Just make sure you deploy your static firebase really well and start shooting, a lot. And pray that the Emperor blesses you for using substandard Marines.

At 1000 pts I think a good nidzilla list would have to basically smash his own models with a hammer and rule them destroyed to lose to a dark angels list.

Flyrant - 170ish
Walkrant - 150ish
2 x elite fexes - 226
2 x 8 spinegaunts - 80p
Gunfex 168
Gunfex 168

Honestly not sure there's a 1500 pt DA list that wouldn't have a hard game against 1000p of nidz

Tonight, when I'm off work I'll try making a 1000 pt, 1500 pt, and 1750 pt list using DA for taking on Nidzillas for review/theoryhammer.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I haven't played against 'nids a whole lot in low point games,but they seem like they'd really tough in 500-1000 point games.  They can get plenty of big stuff out that's hard to wound,but can still field a ton of weenies to help compensate.

Here's my idea for a 1500 point 'nid killer DA

Belial-130 pts.

Termie Squad(Assault Cannon,Deathwing Banner)-270

Termie Squad(Assault Cannon)-245

10-man Devy(4xPlasma Cannons)-265

10-man Devy(2xPlasma Cannons,2x H.Bolters)-245

Land Raider Crusader-250

All this=1405

With the last 95,you could do Predator Destructer(AC/H.B. sponsons)or a Whirlwind for a weenie killing vehicle.  Or,you could a 5-man Combat squad w/ a flamer as a screening unit for one of your Devy CS's.  You could also do a 5-man scout squad with 3 Sniper Rifles to pick away at the 'zillas and/or screen a Devy.  If your opponent is nice and will let you be 5 points over,you could throw in a Landspeeder Tornado or a generic Chaplain.  The Chaplain would have a hard time wounding the 'zillas,but the ability to re-roll misses in CC with Litanies of Hate could be worth it.

Against zilla 'nids,I'd definately go with mostly Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Termies.  The Thunder Hammer will wound T-6 on a 2+.  Plus,if you wound a 'zilla with a TH,but don't kill it that round(a definate possibility when the squad suffers some losses),it will be going on Initiative 1 the next combat round,same as you.  From what I remember,practically the entire 'nid army has you beaten on initiative anyway,so you're not losing much by having to go at Initiative 1.  The Storm Shield's 4+ Invulnerable in CC will also help the survivablity of the Termies against the monstrous creatures.

If you get the option,let him have the first turn.

I'd split the Devy's into combat squads.  The reason for Plasma Cannons instead of Lascannons is twofold.  PC's are 10 points cheaper a pop,still penetrate the 'zilla's armor saves,and are still wounding T6 on 3+(2+for LC's),which are good odds.  They also use a blast template,meaning they'll also be effective if/when the 'nids weenies start getting close enough that you need to concentrate fire on them for a turn or two. 

Stick the Termies with the DW banner and Belial(and the Chaplain if you chose to take him) into the Crusader.  Stick it as far forward in you deploy zone as you can during set-up.  Turn one,send it 12" accross the board,disembark the Termies,and send them crashing into the first 'zilla you see.  Yeah,he might send a 'zilla or two to assault the Crusader his next turn,but if you moved over 6",he needs 6's to hit it and if he's playing 'zilla 'nids,they won't be stacked for CC.  Hopefully,it'll survive,and get to unload it's weapons the next turn.  If nothing else,it stopped them shooting at your Devy's for a turn. 

Unless your opponent forced you to take the first turn,he should have probably already sent any gaunts,'stealers,or whatever charging down your Devy's,meaning he's going to have a hard time turning them around and getting them back to help out his 'zillas.  Send that first Termy squad walking down the line towards 'zilla after 'zilla.  Belial and co WILL most likely get wiped out,but they will hopefully cause so much havoc in the 'nid deploy zone and take down enough 'zilla's that the rest of the army will be able to drop the weenies and what's left of the 'zillas. 

 

Posted By Longshot on 04/10/2007 4:19 PM
At 1000 pts I think a good nidzilla list would have to basically smash his own models with a hammer and rule them destroyed to lose to a dark angels list.

Flyrant - 170ish
Walkrant - 150ish
2 x elite fexes - 226
2 x 8 spinegaunts - 80p
Gunfex 168
Gunfex 168

Honestly not sure there's a 1500 pt DA list that wouldn't have a hard game against 1000p of nidz

Now That is a 1000pt Nidzilla army.

Sorry, no elite fexes under 1500 points.

Posted By shogun on 04/10/2007 3:28 PM

Dont get a big lord that can be killed in one blow.. I think my list would be about....

master of the ravenwing land speeder 205P

No offense to the poster, but am I the only one who found this statement to be incredibly funny?

Posted By blue loki on 04/11/2007 5:26 AM

Posted By shogun on 04/10/2007 3:28 PM

Dont get a big lord that can be killed in one blow.. I think my list would be about....

master of the ravenwing land speeder 205P

No offense to the poster, but am I the only one who found this statement to be incredibly funny?

I think he meant in close combat, but that is funny.  I didn't get my lists finished last night...   Tonight, I swear....

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By ForceVoid on 04/11/2007 4:20 AM
Sorry, no elite fexes under 1500 points.

True, but the intent is there.

Drop one, and put one in a HS slot.

Okay, a little late, but here's those cost figurings for you:
<table width="576" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 434pt;"> <col width="146" style="width: 110pt;"></col> <col width="40" style="width: 30pt;"></col> <col width="48" span="3" style="width: 36pt;"></col> <col width="44" style="width: 33pt;"></col> <col width="9" style="width: 7pt;"></col> <col width="49" span="3" style="width: 37pt;"></col> <col width="46" style="width: 35pt;"></col> <tbody> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td width="146" height="17" class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 110pt;"> </td> <td width="40" class="xl25" style="width: 30pt;">to Hit</td> <td width="96" colspan="2" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none; width: 72pt;">to Wound</td> <td width="92" colspan="2" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none; width: 69pt;">Fail Save</td> <td width="9" class="xl22" style="width: 7pt;"> </td> <td width="193" colspan="4" class="xl25" style="width: 146pt;">Carnifex Combos</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 6</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">Sv 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">Sv 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl22"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none;">T 6, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 6, 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7 2+</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="height: 12.75pt;">Bolter (one shot)</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="3.7037037037037035E-2" x:fmla="=B3*C3*E3">4%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1.8518518518518517E-2" x:fmla="=B3*C3*F3">2%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="3.7037037037037035E-2" x:fmla="=B3*D3*E3">4%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1.8518518518518517E-2" x:fmla="=B3*D3*F3">2%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Meltagun</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B4*C4*E4">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B4*C4*F4">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B4*D4*E4">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B4*D4*F4">44%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasm * (one shot)</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.5">50%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B5*C5*E5">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B5*C5*F5">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=B5*D5*E5">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=B5*D5*F5">33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Missile Launcher</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B6*C6*E6">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="9.2592592592592587E-2" x:fmla="=B6*C6*F6">9%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B6*D6*E6">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="7.407407407407407E-2" x:fmla="=B6*D6*F6">7%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*C7*E7">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*C7*F7">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*D7*E7">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*D7*F7">56%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Razorback)</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.88888888888888884">89%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*C8*E8">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*C8*F8">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*D8*E8">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*D8*F8">74%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl23"> </td> <td align="center" colspan="4" class="xl35" style="border-left: medium none; border-right: 0.5pt solid black;">Chance to Wound</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" colspan="4" class="xl25">Points per Wound (rounded up)</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl24">Cost</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 6, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 6, 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 7, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 7 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl22"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none;">T 6, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 6, 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7 2+</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="height: 12.75pt;">Meltagun</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">10</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B12/C12">18</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B12/D12">18</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="22.5" x:fmla="=B12/E12">23</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="22.5" x:fmla="=B12/F12">23</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Pistol</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">15</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B13/C13">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B13/D13">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B13/E13">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B13/F13">45</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Gun</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">15</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B14/C14">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B14/D14">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B14/E14">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B14/F14">45</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Cannon (Tac)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">15</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B15/C15">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B15/D15">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B15/E15">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B15/F15">45</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Cannon (Dev)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">25</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="56.25" x:fmla="=B16/C16">56</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="56.25" x:fmla="=B16/D16">56</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B16/E16">75</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B16/F16">75</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Missile Launcher (Dev)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">20</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="9.2592592592592587E-2">9%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="7.407407407407407E-2">7%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/C17">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/D17">216</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/E17">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/F17">270</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl33" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Tactical)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">20</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/C18">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/D18">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/E18">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/F18">36</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Dev)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">35</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/C19">63</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/D19">63</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/E19">63</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/F19">63</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl34" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Razorback)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">30</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/C20">41</td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/D20">41</td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/E20">41</td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/F20">41</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Let me break it down--the "Points per Wound" is the important part. I couldn't think of a better artificial way to quantify bang for your buck. Simply translated--the lower the number, the better.

Additional note--I only did the calculations for one plasma gun shot. Really, it's points cost should be halved bc it's doing twice as much as it is now. I didn't know a good way to figure in "Get's Hot" so I left it out.

***Looks like Lascannons in Tactical Squads and on Razorbacks is the way to go, but put Plasma Cannons in combat Dev squads

I suppose you want plain jane rhinos to carry your other halves of the combat squads--razorbacks lose their long range edge if they ferry troop squads around. Barbed Stranglers on Gunfexes only have a 24" range (30" with walking) so you can keep them at arm's length for a round or two.

I wouldn't recommend the predators--too many points to lose from a dual-BS wielding Carnifex. Granted, it could almost take one down a round, but any venom cannon shaking will put it out of commission for a turn, so it's kinda moot. Razorbacks are cheaper and can be used to belt your plasma cannon dev squads out of trouble if need be

Drop one carnie, add tyrant guard to make up the diff. Still the same story, DA gets owned and moves to Tibet in shame.

Actually Tonrados can be effective if you use them appropriatley. Keep it hidden and use it to mop up stealers and gaunts. One round of shooting on a Stealer squad will earn it's cost. Team up two or three and go after any MC that are out of terrain. For the points of a Crusader I personally would opt to go with a Pred Ann. and a Razorb. with twin Las.

Well Ozymandius, you deserve our help for taking on the second most 'borken' list after Iron Warriors with the Sons of Jonson. The trouble is, exactly how.

I would be inclined to take a plethora of fist vet sgts. You have to take Vet sgts anyway, so use it as a sttrength and take plenty of powerfists. Six tactical squads, some five man, some ten man combat squads for a lascannon or two at the back. You pay more for fists I hear, but that is part of the price you pay.

I think your cost analysis is a bit off, becuase you aren't taking into account the cost of the squad/vehicle in question. For instance, your comparison of the tac lascannon versus dev version is flawed, because it is actually much cheaper per lascannon in the dev squads if you figure in the cost of the squad. Otherwise you have a very handy chart there.


You could take the chance of losing the model to gets hot, multiply that by the total cost of the model (PG+ 15 or so points) and create a psuedo cost of the plasma gun for cost analysis. Its a bit artificial but it gets you a ballpark idea. Or you could do what most people do and ignore over heat in the analysis but keep it mind when comparing results.

@ Geddonight: Wow, mathhammer does have its uses. I'll keep this in mind when I come up with my list tonight.

@Longshot: I guess your name sums up my chances.

@Lemartes: I'm afraid of using Tornadoes as they are now 100 points and will die far too easily from a BS or VC shot.

@Orlanth: Thanks for the encouragement! I'm thinking my list will be 3 Tac squads w/ fists, meltas, and lascannons, a dev squad w/ plasma cannons, and enough razorbacks to fill up the points. I'll post it tonight.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

EDIT:  Ok, changed my mind and thought I'd post a quick 1000 point DA force that I did (shh, don't tell my boss).

Master w/ Powerfist - 125 pts
2 x 10 - Tactical Squad w/ PF, Meltagun, Lascannon - 220 pts each
5 - Devastator Squad w/ 3 Plasma Cannons - 165 pts
3 x Razorbacks - 90 points each

Total: 1000

5 lascannons, 2 meltaguns, 3 plasma cannons, 3 powerfists (13 attacks total on charge).

EDIT2: Fixed some incorrect prices (don't have my DA codex here at work...).

Thoughts, comments?

Ok, 1000 points (now with correct points values):

Master w/ Thunderhammer, Combi-Melta - 140 points
2 x Tactical Squads w/ PF, Meltas, and Lascannons - 220 points each
1 Devastator Combat Squad w/ 3 Plasma Cannons - 165 points
3 x Razorbacks w/ TL-Lascannons - 80 points each

Total: 985
Last 15 points could be for plasma pistol on a Vet Sgt, stormbolters for Razorbacks, or extra armor on one Razorback.

Thats 5 lascannons (3 TL), 3 Plasma Cannons, 3 Meltas, 2 Powerfists (8 attacks on charge), and 1 ThunderHammer (5 attacks on charge).

And now for the add on to 1500:
985 above plus:

6 - Veteran Squad w/ 2 powerfists, 1 Thunderhammer, 2 meltas and 4 combat shields - 240 points
Devastator combat squad (add on to above) w/ Plasma Cannon - 100 points
2 x Razorbacks w/ TL-Lascannon - 80 points each

Total: 1500 points

7 Lascannons (5 TL), 4 Plasma Cannons, 5 Meltas, 4 Powerfists (16 attacks on charge), and 2 Thunderhammers (9 attacks on charge).

5 Tanks, 37 Models

Thoughts, comments?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Plasma Cannons are especially good against the Walking Tyrant with Tyrant Guard - doubles your wounding, on average.

Also, many Nidzilla players like to make an 'MC wall' and hide fast assaulters (stealers, raveners) behind it. Templates can now be placed *anywhere* over the target's base, so a PC can potentially tag 2 MCs and a Ravener in one shot.

But if the Raveners are out of sight, then they still cannot be taken as casaulties regardless of whether you hit them or not.

You can't also take casaulties from a whirllwind when the target is out of LOS!

Don't get dumb with raw, or raw gets dumb with you.

I have been running combat squads via when the rule came out. I have yet to lose a game with my foot sloggin marines. One you have so many bolters in your list and that is the bane of all AP 5 armour. This is what I would do,

 

Ten man tact unit las plasma and break it into two five man units. I normally dont put a las in my tact unit because of point crunch. I do put the las cannon into my vet unit with tank hunters,,, AV 14 is little better with str 10 then 9.  66 percent chance to hit with a 50 percent change to glance  and a 33 percent change to pen.

Ten man tact unit las plasma and break it into two five man units.

If you want more tact units as I run four five man tact unit and two five man scout units in my armour.

Heavy support is

Ten man Dev unit with four heavy bolter and break that into two five man units.

Two heavy bolters in each unit.

DO NOT GO WITH SIX MAN UNITS! dont listen to others on this point. A lot of people six man min/max the unit and thus the plasma gun becomes a wasted item in the unit until something gets close enough for you  to use it. You need to be focusing on his fast moving hormies with everything you got. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE TYRANT Flyer, let him chew on five man units all day.  Five man unit with just one upgrade is a waste of points for a Tyrant to chew on. Plus when he assaults and kill that five man unit. He now has to face the hole of your army rapid firing and everything else you got. 

Heavy bolter needs to focus on ranged fast moving units. Hormies, gens, raveners.

My last battle was with a nid play and his list was like this.

 

Two tyrants, flyer and walker.

Carny city.

2x 32 horm unit.

Turn one I finished off one horm unit and half the other. He never made it into hth via with his hormies. Next few turns I pumped the carnies dry until they got in assault range and dropped them with power fist. End of the game was one carny about to die and Hive Tyrant who would of got massed fire after he finished my tact unit. That game was two dead marines and his entire army.  He won his last two games with ease and I quote that. Im not saying im billy bad arsk, just that mass AP 5 and AP 4 woepon will get the job done. Few heavy weapons to drop anything else you need to drop.

 

Five man unit is just that, five and it also helps with comp. Being that you had a ten man unit and busted it into two. My point on the six vs five is that if the tyrant hits the six man unit. He is going to chew threw at least a lascannon and a plasma weopon and the unit if it has a vet. That is a lot of  points for a hth beast to clean up on. Now you let him have a five man base unit at what, 85 to 90 points. So he got his points back on two units......But his hth god is dead and your walking your troops around because they have nothing to do now. Being that they killed everything else before his hth god got to hth.

This is not a sit and shoot army either.  Recon net me around 3k points for walking to the other side while blasting his army to death. He was a very very exp Eldar player and new before the game started that it was over. That was back when I first started to test out this army.  Any time something hth god like attacks, they only get five men. What do they get in return, zillion bolters and plasma and melta and lascannon and oh heavy bolters and oh ya zillion more bolters.

 

I dont want to give the core of the army idea away, I just might see more of them on the boards. Best of luck with nids, just bolter and heavy bolter up. toss in a few other woepon for tact and vet units and you do fine.

Posted By davidson on 04/12/2007 7:31 PM
You can't also take casaulties from a whirllwind when the target is out of LOS!

Don't get dumb with raw, or raw gets dumb with you.

If you bothered to read the rules, you would find out that is not true.  Barrage weapons are specifically exempted from the line of sight requirement for removing casaulties.  Blast weapons are not.

Tarval, I am a little bit confused by your list.  You mention using combat squads, but also mention six man units and veteran squads with tank hunters, neither of which DA can take. 

Also, I'll admit that I don't have much experience against Nidzilla's, but heavy bolters seem like a wast to me.  They would only be good against the smaller bugs, and pretty useless against the larger nids w/ T6 or 7 and a 3+ or 2+ save.  I can definitely see their uses against the hordes of Hormagaunts you mentioned, but those don't seem to be the norm for Nidzilla forces.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By skyth on 04/12/2007 5:03 PM
But if the Raveners are out of sight, then they still cannot be taken as casaulties regardless of whether you hit them or not.

Do Monstrous Creatures block LOS to units behind them?  If so, I didn't know that...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes. It's right in their rules.

Thanks, I don't have much experience vs. Monstrous Creatures in 4th ed.  Not many people around here play nids.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By skyth on 04/13/2007 5:59 AM

Posted By davidson on 04/12/2007 7:31 PM
You can't also take casaulties from a whirllwind when the target is out of LOS!

Don't get dumb with raw, or raw gets dumb with you.

If you bothered to read the rules, you would find out that is not true.  Barrage weapons are specifically exempted from the line of sight requirement for removing casaulties.  Blast weapons are not.

In relation to cover saves yes, but not removing caualties.

Not to be rude, but could you move this to YMDC (I want to know the answer, but its off this topic).  But while you are here, feel free to comment on how DA could beat a Nidzilla list or on the lists above.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Sounds like Ged said the same as me, just a little shorter.

Heavy bolters with AP of 4 will rip most of his army down with ease. This is why you buy them for dev units because they are so cheap. I myself use split fire to the T and that allows me to grind a unit down to nothing. Really no point in putting missle launchers in your Dev units because of the point sink and they are really not that good of a weopon for marines in the first place. 

This is why you need to focus on fast moving units first and formost. That way they do not tie up your units in hth and buy him time to move his bigger slower units up to reinforce the unit in hth already. If he is shielding his units with big bugs, all you really need to do it sink one with mass fire and then that allows you to mass fire at his small bug units behind it. Take a LD test on 10 to shoot the bugs behind it if you need to. Well, best of luck and I hope you find your gaming style

Thanks, I've been gaming for awhile, but I am having to relearn a lot of stuff with the new DA codex. We'll see, I need some more games under my belt.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ive had to do same thing, I just got back into my new Dark Angels codex this weekend, and boy, all my long range tactics have seemed to just fall to the wayside. No more min-maxed lascannon squads and what not. I've put a 2k dark angels list up in the army list section.

I think DA has an excellent chance of beating 'Zilla nids.

The mobility and firepower of bike squads combined with rending weapons on fast land speeders and a potential follow-up assault against the wounded big griblies with Deathwing should put most Tyranid armies to sleep. Like, permanently.

Good luck. There are few SM lists which can fight on even terms with Nidzilla. DA are starting with fewer, more expensive ACs and fewer, more expensive units. These are handicaps.

Well, in general Nids don't really fear SM armies, not just Nidzilla.

If you can't use your mobility to keep away from big bugs and use rending assault cannons on speeders and terminators with lightning claws effectively, I have no respect for you as a general.

A lower ratio of dangerous weapons to units does not necessarily translate into a handicap, especially considering the fact that any highly mobile, reasonably tough army tends to make a joke of zilla nids. I play an Eldar infantry force, and I welcome seeing 'Nids across the table from me. DA should do the same.

Rending makes a mockery of monstrous creatures. The fact that you can get "less total" assault cannons, however, doesn't equate to a weaker force, because you can make your assault cannons last longer and deploy more effectively than 'nilla marines.

Bike models actually defeat a lot of the purpose of tyranid shooting. The venom cannons don't have a high enough rate of fire, and will probably be busy glancing your skimmers. The barbed strangler will hit far fewer models on average, and devourers are your only real concern (after the HTs of course).

I have no reason to see it as anything less than an even matchup, until I see otherwise.

Are Lightning claws on termies really better vs. Nidzillas than, say, a Thunder hammer and Storm Shield. Even with the re-roll, you still need 6's to wound. It seems that the Assault Cannon and LC heavy armies are really relying on rolling lots of 6's to be effective.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You'd be stupid to make an army list composed entirely of terminators with LCs and Assault Cannons.

There are going to be plenty of other weapons in any army variant. It's never advisable to rely on only a couple of weapons options.

To answer your actual question Ozymandias: No. I would recommend at least 2:1 LCs to PF/TH+SS. This is because against all buy Hive Tyrants, you strike simultaneous or better against his big gribblies. If you're focusing firepower the way you should, you should be able to take him apart piecemeal. Eg: hive tyrant too close to your units? you should have seen this coming and you can move your land speeders, 3 bikes with power fist, and 3 bikes with plasma gun to intercept. You might have terminators arriving from deep strike, or perhaps they're within assault distance already. Ideally you would fire at the bug until it has one or two wounds left, then charge with your 3 bikes w/ PF or terminators to finish it off. (sending bikes against a HT isn't really adviseable--moreso against a Carnifex)

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/18/2007 4:04 PM
If you can't use your mobility to keep away from big bugs and use rending assault cannons

If you're in range to use the assault cannons, you're in range to get shot back.  Devourers make a mess of speeders and even terminators (Especially when you're taking the morale check on a 4 or 5)

Terminators get their base save against devourers...you can't ask for better than that.

You shouldn't be walking right into the middle of all his bugs. You have superior maneuverability and the ability to deep strike. Hit his flank, and laugh as at least two bugs usually won't make it in time if it's pulled off right.

On average each dakkafex will drop 1 terminator from firing.

In a godzilla list all the Monstrous creatures are generally clumped close together, not spread throughout the board, so flanking won't work all that well.

Plus 4 Terminators with 2 assault cannons will do an average of 1.48 wounds against a dakkafex in 4+ cover. 2.81 if it's in the open for some reason.

5 Dark Angels terminators with 1 assault cannon will do 1.30 wounds to a Carni in the open.

So it would take more than 3 squads to drop 1 Elite Dakkafex.

Protip Skyth: DA bikes and Terminators are fearless

I think perhaps some scout squads for clearing out the lesser nids (the swarm crappy nids) with the shotgun power.

Although I am not in favor of going LC and AC as a complete list against the nid zilla.  Perhaps the better move would be to go for what is cheap in the DA list (Scouts) for thinning the herd and then using terminators with thunderhammers and stormshields to crush the big nids. 

I certainly think bikes are a viable options against the huge nids especially since you can get two meltas.

Another option would be getting whirlwinds with the incendiary castellan missiles to further kill nids that are using cover (something I have found MOST annoying when fighting nids).

Ahhh...Forgot they were fearless.

Dunno about the bikes. If you're in range to use your melta, then you're in range to get charged by genestealers/Raveners.

But still, you have to remember, normal marines have trouble against godzilla lists.  With how weak the DA codex is compared to the normal marine codex, especially with the things that are good vs godzilla (Anything good vs Godzilla is more expensive and harder to get)

Well if you use the whirlwind incendiary shots (which ignore cover saves) then standard genestealers can be decimated before your bikes get close to the stealers (what is the save on a ravener? I know genestealers naturally are at 5+)   Generally these squads go from cover to cover until they get right in your doorstep, but with the incendiary whirlwind (two of them maybe) you should be able to chump up units like this by negating their cover completely and severely weakening the units before they get to you. 
Granted, the last thing you want to do is get really close to big nids in a nidzilla list, but with terminators fearless and able to take 5 thunderhammers at no additional cost I'd say getting them in the thick of assault would be a smooth move. Then again I haven't tried my DA's against a zilla list yet.

I really dont understand why you guys think the assault cannon it the answer to all your question. Either a win and win big or pack it up and go home weopon. 15 percent chance to do something with that weopon is darn near a waste of points imo. OHHH you got a six and that is rending ohhhh, that is just one wound and you are going to need more than that to do what you need to do to drop the big bugs. Bolters and heavy bolters are going shread his army before it ever gets to ya. If you are putting a assault cannon vs a Tyrant, you are on a down hill slop and falling fast

 

Most of the players I know run at least one unit of ravenors and two units of gens at most. You might see the gens heavy list once in awhile. Then again if you have ranged weoponry, you are going to shread him before he sees the light of day in night fight mission.

Best of luck to your mission,

 

Times I have taken a dread, it has ripped rav down and also carnies with ease.

Posted By Tarval on 04/18/2007 10:51 PM
I really dont understand why you guys think the assault cannon it the answer to all your question. Either a win and win big or pack it up and go home weopon. 15 percent chance to do something with that weopon is darn near a waste of points imo. OHHH you got a six and that is rending ohhhh, that is just one wound and you are going to need more than that to do what you need to do to drop the big bugs. Bolters and heavy bolters are going shread his army before it ever gets to ya. If you are putting a assault cannon vs a Tyrant, you are on a down hill slop and falling fast

Yeah, assault cannons kind of suck if you never roll any 6's.  On the other hand my bolters have taken down countless carnifexes without ever rolling a single 6.  In fact I don't even need 6's.  I take all my dice and fill in one of the pips to turn all the 6's into 5's.  And also I don't believe in math.

Thats the beauty of Math, it doesn't matter if you believe in it, it works the same anyway.

Rending is awesome, against a T6-7 2/3+ save bug, it is extremely valuable. But of course, if you don't believe in math, feel free to use Lasguns instead.

Well, my friend did it with shotguns which was awesome, of course, then his scouts got killed by other stuff, and then he lost the game, but there is a sense of awesome that comes from beating a zilla nid with next to zero chances.

Of course, I like to win so I go along with the thinking that giving yourself the best advantage possible is a good move. Although i like killing nids with melta guns rather than ACs. But playing DA, thats a good thing.

Posted By ATI on 04/18/2007 7:21 PM
Well if you use the whirlwind incendiary shots (which ignore cover saves) then standard genestealers can be decimated before your bikes get close to the stealers (what is the save on a ravener? I know genestealers naturally are at 5+)   Generally these squads go from cover to cover until they get right in your doorstep, but with the incendiary whirlwind (two of them maybe) you should be able to chump up units like this by negating their cover completely and severely weakening the units before they get to you. 

About half the Nidzilla lists I've run up against which use Stealers for their troops take extended carapace.

I thought the Incendiary rounds were going to be awesome too, until I realized they're only S4, AP5.  Stealers also come in moderate sized units, and in a Nidzilla list have enough room to spread out and reduce the number of hits they take from templates. 

The regular marine Castellan rounds really seem superior against Stealers.

I don't know, I've seen it both ways; stealers with and without the carapace. When its without I'd say go for the incendiary rockets. If the stealers have carapace go for regular.

ColonelEllios

It is pretty clear from your posts that you haven't played a single game against a competent Godzilla nid player.

Dark Angels cannot out maneuver Godzilla nids. The entire army tends to move in a swarm and can move and shoot. DA units are way over priced compared to their nid counter parts. The DA can be both out assaulted and out gunned at the same time by even the tamest Godzilla nid army.

DA have nothing on Godzilla nids! The two armies aren't even in the same league.

If your apparently super maneuverable bikes are in range of even a single Carnifex, the next turn the entire nid army is first going to shoot you, and then genestealers will assault any bits that are left.

It is amazing how many absurdly useless tactics get posted for fighting against Godzilla nids.

Its also amazing how godlike the zilla players think their armies are and yet they still lose games.

They can be beaten by a great deal of things. A guy down here plays zilla nids and is very good. He got wiped by a ravenwing army.
The bikes came in, shot, and assulted turn 1. Knocked out 2 carnies and wounded two more. Then the speeders and the bikes that survived the counterstrike took out the rest.

If that is a good nid player, I hate to meet a bad one.

So you beat someone that deployed horribly by winning the dice roll for going first?

Why exactly did he not screen his fex against your scouting bikes and what would have happened if he got first turn instead?

The amount of firepower that a proper DA army can summon onto a single MC is outrageous, especially with lucky rending rolls. Even without, you'll at least get a couple rends. Add that to plasma gun, heavy bolter, melta gun, bolter, and lascannon fire, and you have one very, very dead MC.

In my experience against Zilla Nids (against 2 different players, 5 games, and witnessing many other games played by others) I can tell you that, if you can "dance" around the nids, they lose. If you can control when and where assaults happen (which is pretty easy when the big scary stuff moves 6" a turn), you win. If the list has two HT with wings, things get challenging. But if they are heavy on HT, they won't have 6 carni (from what I've seen). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 2x HT 6x Carni list. So at that point it becomes a tactical game, because both forces are evenly matched.

Plenty of games are won by the roll of first turn. Sometimes, you just can't minimize it's impact. Declaring that a Zilla player was a terrible general because he lost the dice off for first turn means nothing. At worst, it means that the two armies were evenly matched, and the DA player knew his s**t, because he obviously took an educated gamble with his scout move.

Tau-Cent's argument can be rephrased as "any player who makes a mistake with Zilla nids is a horrible general. Zilla nids win every single time if the general makes no mistakes."

What player do you know that never makes a single error? Furthermore, I saw a Zilla nid list lose horrendously to a thousand sons cult, of all things! I witnessed the game, and the 'Nid player made one mistake (which was really only a mistake because of a "1" on his fleet roll), and the dice were very forgiving to the TS player.

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/20/2007 12:44 PM
The amount of firepower that a proper DA army can summon onto a single MC is outrageous, especially with lucky rending rolls. Even without, you'll at least get a couple rends. Add that to plasma gun, heavy bolter, melta gun, bolter, and lascannon fire, and you have one very, very dead MC.

And a codex Marine force can summon quite a bit more.

If the list has two HT with wings, things get challenging.

Right there proves you have no idea what you're talking about.  If the list has two Hive Tyrants with wings, it is downright illegal.

But if they are heavy on HT, they won't have 6 carni (from what I've seen). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 2x HT 6x Carni list. So at that point it becomes a tactical game, because both forces are evenly matched.

I use 2 HT and 5 Carnis.  I can't imagine any DA list that would threaten it.

Plenty of games are won by the roll of first turn. Sometimes, you just can't minimize it's impact. Declaring that a Zilla player was a terrible general because he lost the dice off for first turn means nothing. At worst, it means that the two armies were evenly matched, and the DA player knew his s**t, because he obviously took an educated gamble with his scout move.

He got downright lucky.  And he wasn't a terrible general because he lost the dice-off.  He's a terrible general because he didn't screen his carnis against a first turn assault / Have decent counter-assault.

Out of curiosity, what were the lists (On both sides) in the fight you're talking about?

So the guy uses an example of an obvious tactical error in which the nid player neglated to screen his shooty carnifex from scouting bikers and a 50/50 dice roll as his primary example of how to beat Godzilla nids with DA and you don't want anyone to point out the obvious?

I think you just confirmed that you have never played against a truly well build Godzilla nid army. You are playing against a balanced/hybrid Nid army at best.

When you play against a 2 HT (1 winged), 5 Carnifex , 2-3 Zonethorpe army backed up by packs of Genestealers then get back to me. Let me know how Ravenwing fairs against 8 to 14 twin linked Devourers. I am going to assume you know that the stats and rules are for Devourers.

You are correct that your army will probably have enough firepower to down 1 Carnifex. But on the nid players turn he will stun all your vehicles and destroy several squads. He will probably also get a couple of torrent of fire results to eliminate heavy and special weapons from any 5 man combat squads you may have. The game will go all down hill from there as he cuts off any maneuvering room he you may have had. If you try and assault him the Genestealers will eat you alive or swarms of cheap fearless Guants will lock you in combat for the rest of the game.

How about this. Since we are detemining what could beat a zilla list lets assume the nids go second.

If we can come up with a situation where they are severly disadvantaged at that point we can say they can be beaten.
They deploy forward (cause most guns are short range) and screen their monsters with gaunts/stealers in a tight clump.
So, scout bikers forward. First turn move bikers up to assult and clear out enough of the screen to assult through with 6+speeders/HBpreds.
Assult the carnies who cant compete with two melta shots followed by fist attacks.
Turn 1 result - two carnies dead. Half or more (likely more) of the stealers or gaunts dead. 18 bikes consolidate into more carnies.

From that point the zilla list will have a very hard time recovering no matter how good they are. First turn just crippled them.
Sure if they got first they would have shot the bikers up fairly well (assuming there wasnt a sweetly placed peice of terrain to hide behind) but you cant say they are godlike because they win if they get to go first.

I have played the zilla list a few times now and the only reason I lost the one game I did (I play tau) was because of a 1.5 by 1.5 ft peice of size 2 rubble the guy could hide eveything behind. If that one peice of terrain wasnt there I would have wiped him easy. The other times I just danced arround and shot him from range untill he died.

god I love DA players

Posted By skyth on 04/20/2007 12:58 PM

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/20/2007 12:44 PM
The amount of firepower that a proper DA army can summon onto a single MC is outrageous, especially with lucky rending rolls. Even without, you'll at least get a couple rends. Add that to plasma gun, heavy bolter, melta gun, bolter, and lascannon fire, and you have one very, very dead MC.

And a codex Marine force can summon quite a bit more.

Depends entirely on the list and tactics used. A "gunline" marine army has no chance against 'Zilla. A more mobile army with plenty of AC, and heavy bolters has an amount of firepower on-par with DA.

If the list has two HT with wings, things get challenging.

Right there proves you have no idea what you're talking about.  If the list has two Hive Tyrants with wings, it is downright illegal.

Fair enough. I don't know the nid codex perfectly, I just assumed it was legal, albeit I've never played against it. Gee, I wonder why...

But if they are heavy on HT, they won't have 6 carni (from what I've seen). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 2x HT 6x Carni list. So at that point it becomes a tactical game, because both forces are evenly matched.

I use 2 HT and 5 Carnis.  I can't imagine any DA list that would threaten it.

I'm pretty sure DA with a strong ravenwing element could give you a very good challenge. You can't always keep your MCs castled, and you can't always hide your genestealers from the six tornadoes running around.

Plenty of games are won by the roll of first turn. Sometimes, you just can't minimize it's impact. Declaring that a Zilla player was a terrible general because he lost the dice off for first turn means nothing. At worst, it means that the two armies were evenly matched, and the DA player knew his s**t, because he obviously took an educated gamble with his scout move.

He got downright lucky.  And he wasn't a terrible general because he lost the dice-off.  He's a terrible general because he didn't screen his carnis against a first turn assault / Have decent counter-assault.

Out of curiosity, what were the lists (On both sides) in the fight you're talking about?

Once again, you don't know all the details. His counter-assault could've gotten caught in terrain. He could've had more important things to worry about than his isolated units. I'm even assuming they're isolated. Saying that either person was a terrible general is a rather moot point.

Posted By cypher on 04/20/2007 1:30 PM
How about this. Since we are detemining what could beat a zilla list lets assume the nids go second.

If we can come up with a situation where they are severly disadvantaged at that point we can say they can be beaten.
They deploy forward (cause most guns are short range) and screen their monsters with gaunts/stealers in a tight clump.
So, scout bikers forward. First turn move bikers up to assult and clear out enough of the screen to assult through with 6+speeders/HBpreds.
Assult the carnies who cant compete with two melta shots followed by fist attacks.
Turn 1 result - two carnies dead. Half or more (likely more) of the stealers or gaunts dead. 18 bikes consolidate into more carnies.

From that point the zilla list will have a very hard time recovering no matter how good they are. First turn just crippled them.
Sure if they got first they would have shot the bikers up fairly well (assuming there wasnt a sweetly placed peice of terrain to hide behind) but you cant say they are godlike because they win if they get to go first.

I have played the zilla list a few times now and the only reason I lost the one game I did (I play tau) was because of a 1.5 by 1.5 ft peice of size 2 rubble the guy could hide eveything behind. If that one peice of terrain wasnt there I would have wiped him easy. The other times I just danced arround and shot him from range untill he died.

Um...I guess I'm dumb, because I'm not seeing this.  In a true godzilla list, you've got a massive wall of carnifexes and tyrants walking in FRONT of the genestealers.  Your LOS is blocked, more or less whatever you do on turn 1...all you're doing is shooting at T6 monstrous creatures with 3+ or 2+ saves.  So you kill 2 elite carnifexes...then you consolidate into another 2.  The next turn, the genestealers countercharge, wipe out your bikes. 

I've seen people lose with zilla nids.  I've only seen godzilla nid armies go down easily twice.  Once was against an IW army with 6 5-man las/plas squads, 3 5-man 4ML havocs, and 6 Oblits.  The other time was against my Grey Knights. 

Hahaha! :mad:

The only massacre I've gotten against 'Nids was with my Grey Knights.

They do seem to have an amusing penchant for K.O.'ing the big 'Nids.

If there was ever a single reason why DA can't handle competitive NidZilla lists it's because of one rule: Torrent of Fire.

Combat Squads, only one heavy weapon in Terminator Squads, and low model count Bike Squadrons all create a fatal flaw in DA - the inability to protect heavy weapons or powerfists.  When your average round of shooting from a single Dakkafex results in 6 wounds, every time a Dakkafex fires on a DA combat squad there will be a Torrent of Fire.  Any NidZilla player with moderate skill can take the bite out of every unit in DA through Torrent of Fire. 

Every DA player here is counting on mobility, but the sad fact is that unless you have a range greater than 24", mobility means nothing against NidZilla because that is the threat range of the most under-pointed shooting unit in the game.  So after you've executed your amazing high mobility tactic <sarcasm>, the next turn after the NidZilla return fire you will only have bolters left to fight back with.

 

Last guy I faced was in a tourny. His list had four fex dakka what ever and two tyrants, winged and foot slogger. Next was a  ton of hormies. He won both his games before me as I did as well. I guess just seeing 82 marines on the board is something that you dont see everyday. He looked and his jaw dropped and said crap, said that is something I had never faced before.

He wouldn't even take his Tyrants out of cover and or his Fex. He keep moving everything in cover and I blasted it to death with my (Marine gun line). In the end he had me in hth with his flyer and dropped two marines. The game ended with his last fex being finished off with one wound left via shooting and vet power first. His Tyrant had all his wounds, but it was the end of the game and it was the last thing on my list.

 

If you talk about this wall you make with your nids. I have seen all types of walls, 2nd on and have not lost to nids yet. Over all, I would have to say 2nd ed with over 120 model count was the hardest for me to fight. Mainly because of the way marines had to be played back then.

 

If you live in the DFW are in Texas, maybe we can meet up.

 

What would be great is to turn this into some type of event. Nids players and DA players post there Win/Loss games vs each other. Will total that up in month or something like that for the best of the best SHOW DOWN!

 

If I do change to DA, will talk more later on tonight ,, back to work...

Too far for me....but no offense to you or your opponent...but it sounds to me like you beat him, you didn't beat his army.  With a Godzilla army you have to be aggressive. 

And including hormagaunts just seems like a silly thing to do. 

 Either going to have a four or a five save. So, either the bolter and or Heavy bolter will kill the gens. Add to that you will have less of them as well, being that hormies are cheaper in points. If you have the wall, well once one or two drop. That in turn is going to open your back door and allow me to clean out your back field.

 

Lets just look at this, when you do charge what will you get for the charge. Five man unit that is worth 75 to 116 points max. Your going to kill that five man unit with ease. I dont mind five men being lost to the cause because in return I am going to kill what ever just assault that unit with everything I have or what I want to use.

 

No biggy thou, maybe one day will be able to see who

I hate it when this happens to a zilla nid tactic thread. People are getting along fine, trying to post tactics that may or may not work. Then some guy who talks a pretty good game gets on and is like "ZOMG!! ZILLAZ RULEZ!" And explains every last possible reason why the list is damn near impossible to beat. Which is beyond lame. I don't think the point of these threads is to explain how the zilla's can kill everything. I also hate how whenever a zilla list loses its because of "user error" which if you ask me, when games are highly competitive everyone loses to user error or luck.

Tau-Cent your pompous explanation of the zilla nids is wrote and has been said before in other threads. No one else wants to hear about how no matter what a zilla nids list will on turn one destroy or stun all my tanks, ToF my heavies and all that crap.

There is a way to beat these guys and quite frankly its not the same for each army, it requires a different strat depending on terrain, who goes first, army composition so forth. I've seen Blood Angels get in there (assault) and rip a zilla nid list to pieces. But that strategy doesn't work for everyone, so the strategy has to change from game to game.

I'm thinking for when I go against 'nidzillas,I'm just gonna throw out Belial,2 Deathwing squads with AC's,an allied Grey Knight Grand-master with a 9-man retinue,and another GK termie squad with Incinerator. Throw a little Holocaust action on the GK's in case a horde of 'stealer/gaunts gets in on them with some extra points. Screw Deepstriking them too. I'm going to line those bad boys up and walk them in Civil War regiment style. Gun down the gaunts/stealers in the neutral zone while walking accross with a couple of Assault Cannons and about 25 stormbolters.

Silly,yeah. But hell,'nidzillas are unbeatable,so there's no real point in putting any real effort into the game,right? After all,if you lose,you've got ready made excuse in that 'zilla's are unbeatable,but if you win,you don't really get any bragging rights because the other guy is an incompetant general and him screwing up was the only reason you won. The only point in playing it out is to amuse yourself by creating looks of worry and confusion on your opponent's face. You know,the look of concern when he watches plunk out that G-M and 9 GK termies,watching him freak every time one of his gunfex's blows a shrouding roll on the GK's,listening to him complain that your DA army has more GK models in it than DA ones,then shooting back by asking why his 1500 point Tyranid army only has,like,40 models in it. If he gets distracted for a sec,grab some of his dice and use them to make some armor saves to really torque him off,then listen to him whine that you sucked all the luck out of them later on.

Look, I want to make one correction. Most of the people I encounter talking about how 'awesome' and 'unbeatable' a Nidzilla list is, are *not* tyranid players**. Most of them play something else, and have not been able to figure out how to beat them. There stories usually are about playing at 1500-1850, but start mentioning about 2300 pts worth of models. (But he has 8 MC and 3 Zoan, and gaunts, and stealers, and raveners and, and, and....) Most of the Nid players I talk with know the inherrent limitations of the Nidzilla army and feel pretty confident in how to counter it. I could be wrong, but I doubt Tau-Cent is a Nid player**.

**One caveat. The recent flood of BBS comments and tourney wins have lead a number of people to jump on the Nidzilla bandwagon and buy a bunch of TMC's figuring they are unbeatable. They may also be yelling 'ZOMG ZILLA RULEZ!'


edit: Heck,look at this thread. Within a few posts of each other you have one saying "The Nid general was in idiot, a good zilla army will have units out front. (next) The Nid general was an idiot, a good zilla army will have the units behind the TMC's for cover."  IOW "A good zilla army will do whatever it was that I was unable to figure out last time I got my butt handed to me"

Actually, I screen in front and back.

I run 42 gaunts currently and 16 stealers. The gaunts screen in front. They are cannon fodder. The stealers are my counter-assault, hidden from fire/assault.

Let's look at the math here. Ravenwing squad is 265 with 6 guys, 2 meltas, and a fist.

Dakkafex is 113 points.  8 stealers are 160. 

Dakkafex sits in 4+ cover. Ravenwing shoots....95 wounds. (I'm assuming Ravenwing has frags for free here) Ravenwing assaults...Carni kills .83 ravenwing. Normal guys do .37 wounds. Fist does 1.67 wounds for a total of 2.62 wounds done.

Stealers counter-assault. Rending kills 4 bikes. 1.33 more kiled by the normal attacks. Bike Squad wiped out. Carni alive with 1.38 wounds. Non-scoring, but fully functional.. This is a roughly equivalent number of points.

If the dakkafex had not been in cover, it would have taken .56 more wounds from the shooting. Still would have been alive.

I tend to concur with coredump and skyth.

It's not that the list is unbeatable. It's that the list is one of the toughest all-round contenders in the game right now. Given that DA have very pricey, usually small units, and that a DA list packs less AP 2 or 3 firepower than any similarly composed vanilla list, it's not hard to see that it's going to be an uphill struggle for DA.

Remember, when discussing shooting a nidzilla list, that it will be hugging cover as much as possible. Everything in the army has Move Through Cover, and half or more of it can ALSO re-roll Difficult terrain. The big guys do most of their killing in the shooting phase, and the little guys are there mostly to protect them from HtH, so they have no reason not to make best use of cover. There is very little tougher to dislodge in this game than a couple of big bugs in a 4+ save ruin, with a pack or two of Genestealers hidden behind them.

I don't play them either, but at this point they're one of the main things I have to account for in the metagame, and they're one of the reasons I'm not entirely psyched about my shiny new DA codex.

I absolutely understand, I'm not saying they aren't a good list, what I DO NOT enjoy is being told how whenever there is a tactic someone brings along, hey there is this math, there's this tactic, there are smarter generals, etc. to explain why nidzillas are going to WTFBBQPwnz my DA list. I think that DA's have an unprecedented number of AP1 weapons, namely melta guns, that other armies probably could bring, but generally dont. OUr bike squads have a lot of them, our troops definitely have a whole lot, and our terminators are way more versatile (and fearless) than other squads.

The tactic I ALWAYS seen nidz use is loadouts of cover to grant their generally lame armor save units some good armor cover. This is where the new whirlwind for DA's in my opinion, can really shine. I realize its not great against huge bugs but for the little bugs that are providing screen cover and all that crap, incendiary castellan's seem like the perfect choice.

I totally agree that the nid zilla list is a generally really strong army, but that doesn't make them unbeatable, and it certaintly doesn't mean that when a nid zilla list loses its because of the general being an idiot. I think we need to give more credence to lists that can beat nid zilla, and also realize that there is no universal standard to fighting nid zillas, generally because the tactic changes from army to army (even from chapter to chapter in the SM case.)

SIDE NOTE EDIT:
Skyth do you run your stealers with or without carapace armor updates? and I am really unfamiliar with the new tyrannid list (Not really all that new anymore) since I haven't been playing for 4 months.   What is in the dakkafex armor and toughness stat line?

The standard Whirlwind missles will work fine against a 'nidzilla list with the 'stealers hiding in the back.  People tend to forget that on barrage weapons,you need intervening terrain from the center hole of the template to the model in order to claim a cover save.  So hiding the 'stealers behind the MC's doesn't give the 'stealers a cover save against barrage weapons.  A standard Whirlwind can still take a big chunk out of that unit,and a Landspeeder Tornado or two should be enough to pick up most of the scraps. 

The Ravenwing 'speeders and bike units' Scout move with a 24" Turbo-Boost combined with their 1st turn move will let those units cover 36" before they shoot.  Setting 12" in means that in turn 1,they can be sitting on their opponent's table edge.  IF the 'nid player has enough size 2 terrain set up in his deploy zone that will grant his MC's cover from every possible angle,you shouldn't be playing against them.  A Ravenwing bike squad with a Plasma Pistol on the Sgt.,2 Melta-guns,and an Attack Bike with a Multi-Melta has a very good chance of dropping 1 monstrous creature a turn without assaulting. 

If the 'nidzilla player likes to bunch up his MC's,throw a Vindicator or two out there.

All the anti-nidzilla "tactics" are quite amusing. For one thing, they all seem to asume 100% accuracy and wounding on the part of the shooters. Sure, a ravenwing bike squad might be able to cause 4 wounds on an elite carnifex. But more likely, it'll cause 2 or 3, and then the squad dies.

Same for the "tactics" used to counter the little ones floating arond behind the MC wall - sure, you can move a speeder around the flanks...but then the speeder dies because massed S5 or S6 firepower kills them dead, or the gunfexes even further in the rear knock them down with venom cannons and barbed stranglers.

Is a Zilla list beatable? Of course. Any list can be beaten. But saying that the Dark Angels are well suited to take down a zilla nid list is just bunk.



Nonsense. You've been believing what you read in WD too much. Dark Angels have LESS AP1/2 firepower than other armies, their terminators are inherently less flexible due to only having 1 HW.

Nidzillas are one of the strongest lists in the game, if not the strongest overall. The simple fact that monstrous creatures retain full effectiveness until they're dead is what gives them that ability. If you're a shooting-based army, you need to be able to reliably inflict 12 or so wounds on T6, 3+/2+ save creatures per turn, even if they're in or behind 5+ or 4+ cover. If you're an assault based army, you need to be able to not only take on and kill 1-2 monstrous creatures in each assault phase, from turn 3 on, you also need to be able to deal with a dozen or two genestealers set to counter-charge you.

And if you'r'e a hybrid list, like most lists are, you need to be able to wipe out the genestealers or kill about 33% of the MCs before your assaulters get stuck in. And you have to do so while withstanding simply ridiculous amounts of incoming fire that a canny nid player will pour out.

So, Nids are all grouped up so you can't flank, and hiding in cover...

So, somewhere out there it is common for terrain to fit 6 TMC, 2 Guard, 3 zoans, and 16 stealers???
Also this means they are limiting themselves to 18" range, for the most part. they can't grab objectives, and can't come get you.

If they do decide to 'come get you', then they are out in the open, and *slow*

I am not overly familiar with the DA codex, but why will a speeder unit die after shooting?

Long range blast/Ord weapons will work wonders. Flamers are effective, heck there are a lot of effective tactics.

Nids have great mobility, and are great hth, especially on the charge. By sitting still, they are giving up these advantages, there are ways to exploit this, even for DA.

Sure - Adepticon. That aside, the TMCs themselves hide the Genestealers just fine.



If there's terrain near where they are, they can hop between them. If there's not, an 18" devourer bubble means they deny you a 3 FOOT diameter bubble, often towards the middle of the table. And that's not discussing the 36" range guns on the heavy 'fexes (and often the walking Tyrant).



That's just it - if you come close enough to their bubble, there's enough fast stuff in there to cause you grief. That flying twin-devourer tyrant? Yeah, he's got a 30" threat radius (read: a 5 FOOT diameter circle).



Come close enough for a flamer, and yeah, you'll get a few genestealers (depending on how you got there), and then you lose the flamer-carrying squad. Never mind how you get a 8" flamer template in range of them.

Ordnance templates can do ONE wound to a TMC. Blast templates will hit a single TMC (and max out at a single wound).



Effective speeder range? 24", at which they'll do, optimistically, around 2 wounds to a TMC out of cover.

Effective range on Carnifex devourers? 24". Multi-shot S6 firepower kills AV 10 skimmers dead. (Effective flyrant range? 30".) Nevermind the heavy fexes, who auto-glance with S10 Barbed Stranglers, or have a couple shots with S8 Venom cannons, or nasty zoanthropes.



I think you're missing the point. The Godzilla list is a SHOOTY list. It has 8 gun platforms, each of which is around 4 times as resilient as a vehicle, and maintain full firepower until completely dead. Moreover, they ARE mobile; unlike the typical gunline, they can saunter along at 6" a turn (12" on the flyrant), and give up no firepower. So if you're shooting at them with static heavy weapons, they can move around to screen, or snipe, as appropriate.

The "easy to kill" parts are COUNTER-assault elements, and serve a similar role as Rough Riders in an Imperial Guard list.

Nobody is saying they are unbeatable. But it's NOTHING like as simple a proposition as you're making it out to be, and most of the tactics you're suggesting just plain don't work.

Posted By ATI on 04/21/2007 7:16 AM
SIDE NOTE EDIT:
Skyth do you run your stealers with or without carapace armor updates? and I am really unfamiliar with the new tyrannid list (Not really all that new anymore) since I haven't been playing for 4 months.   What is in the dakkafex armor and toughness stat line?

Yeah, I run my stealers with  the 4+ save from carapace. 

Dakkafex has a MEQ armor save and like most monstrous creatures, he's T6.

Posted By Whatever on 04/21/2007 12:51 PM

The Ravenwing 'speeders and bike units' Scout move with a 24" Turbo-Boost combined with their 1st turn move will let those units cover 36" before they shoot. 

Just FYI, you can't turbo with the scout move, so you're limited to 24".

This is what drives me crazy. The list of counters.... yes all are possible, but they can't do them all, not at the same time. They can't be both hiding in cover *and* moving towards you. They can't totally block line of sight to the stealers *and* allow room for the stealers to get out. (They can move out of the way, but then they leave a hole in their wall for next turn)

So lets review:
We have 8 'gun platforms' *and* zoanthropes
We have 16 stealers, tightly packed so that 6 TMC's are totally blocking line of sight.
We have 6 TMC's that are packed so tightly that they are totally blocking LoS.
At the same time they are spread out enough that an Ord blast will only hit 1 of them.
We have a piece of terrain that is so large, that they all get cover saves.
We have terrain so close together, that they can 'hop' from one to another, even with a 6" move.
The terrain is simultaneously spread out enough that they have an 18" 'bubble' to shoot you. Nothing is blocking their line of sight.
We have stealers that are *behind* the TMC's, have a move of 6+d6+6 assault range, yet will come and get you if you get "close" to the '18" bubble" range.
We have an opponent, that knows there are 16 tightly packed stealers, yet decides that Ordinance is better used getting one hit on a fex, instead of hitting all 16 of the stealers.
We have an opponent that is worried about losing a unit in exchange for flaming those tightly packed stealers into charred bits.
The TMC's have a "3 FOOT diameter", yet we are playing on a "6 FOOT" table.
We have 6 TMC's that are controlling the game from the "center" of the table, yet somehow got there while moving 6" a turn, apparently always under cover, and never allowing LoS to the stealers.
We have a flyrant with a "5 FOOT" radius, of course that means he is out on his own for a turn, with a weapon that kils what, 1-2 marines in a turn? And if we can assault it, we can't get shot.
We have carnifexes that will move 6" to kill landspeeder, yet somehow is always in cover, and still blocks LoS to the stealers.
This carnifex will "kill speeders dead" eventhough statiscally it will get 3 glances, and thus only a 40% chance of rolling a 'destroy'. (But to be fair, can also get an immobilize, etc.)
Luckily, those speeders come *standard* with a 36" range. (for 20pts we can get a 48" twinlinked blast.)
The Gunfex is still in range, of course it will only get 1.4 glances per turn, so fire away.
(BTW, it is S10 VC and S8 BS)
We *know* there are 'easy to kill' parts, yet continually decide to leave them for last.

Yeah, I can understand why folks keep losing to Nidzilla lists....

In my experience, I've almost always had enough cover to advance my MC and keep them in cover the whole time. It really depends on how much terrain you use. I've also been able to advance my stealers/small bugs out of sight (for the most part) also.

As for the ordnance vs stealers - Any army that is really heavy on ordnance, the stealers (And little gribblies) will be used in a straight-out assault function rather than hanging out behind the lines.

The 18"-24" bubble is where if you can shoot the bugs, they can easily shoot back.

As for chance of downing a speeder-A dakkafex has a 70% chance of downing one, 17.6% chance of getting a weapon destroyed. Chance of speeder being able to still fire the next round is considerably smaller.

Tyrant vs speeder is 45.9% chance of downing it from 36". 13.7% chance of blowing off the AC.

Gunfex vs speeder is 40.2% chance of downing a speeder. Similar chances of blowing off the AC instead.

That's a pretty good analysis.

That's the Nids' game plan in a nutshell.

Move up the center of the table, to maximize their threat range and make it so that the only places to hide are at the far fringes of the table, compromising the opponent's ability to take objectives.

Always move through and into terrain, because it barely slows them down, and any cover save at all is pretty nasty in combination with T6. Even the T4 on the stealers is not bad- it substantially cuts down on the casualties they suffer from whirlwinds and heavy bolters by comparison to gaunts.

Usually the big bugs move up in groupings with 2 or 3 at a time in base contact with one another, forming a short wall to deny as much LOS as possible to stealers, zoanthropes, or other wounded big bugs. Since the bugs move and fire to full effect, they can freely tweak the angle of the wall each turn in response to enemy movement. Static or 6" moving shooty stuff like most tanks or heavy weapon units can't really see around even a 5-6" wide wall formed by two big bugs. Faster moving enemy units can come around the edge of the wall, but just due to the realities of geometry, they generally have to come within big bug shooting range to do so.

The bugs (mostly) stay clustered together for mutual support; in a way it's a new variation of the powerful shooty "castle" armies of third edition, like the SM Razorback army of shooty death. Except that the bugs trade long range for steady but moderate mobility, and big bugs can't suffer Crew Shaken. They also don't have the low-AP firepower of marines, but they make up for that in HtH.

Speeders are tough to use against this army, because the 36" gun is only S5 AP4, and the real money weapon (the AC) has only 24" range. Speeders do have the mobility needed to cicumnavigate the big bug wall/s. A 12" move usually won't do it (just due to the circumference of the circle as you get farther from the center), but a 24" move behind some LOS-blocking terrain may get you to a hidden position from which you can make that 12" move and unload on the stealers. You definitely want to move within 24", because a single heavy bolter only averages 1.33 dead stealers, even assuming they're not in cover. An AC adds 2.25 to that figure, giving a squadron of three speeders an average of 10.7 dead stealers. Enough to wipe out a squad. Of course, if they're in 5+ cover that number goes down to 7.1; a crippled squad, but still only half points, and the speeders are definitely going to be targeted by as much devourer fire as it takes to knock them down. 240pts for the price of a squad of stealers is a good trade for the bugs.

A better weapon for shooting the stealers is, as you pointed out, indirect ordnance. Basilisks and Defilers are excellent, though remember that only 1/3 of shots land directly on target. IG and Chaos don't have speeders, so the bug player doesn't have to worry as much about units slipping the flank to shoot around the big bugs, and he can spread out the stealers more behind the wall/s.

I'm glad we're getting into a more detailed tactical analysis of the challenge.

You're not getting the point, here, core. 

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 12:25 PM

This is what drives me crazy. The list of counters.... yes all are possible, but they can't do them all, not at the same time. They can't be both hiding in cover *and* moving towards you. They can't totally block line of sight to the stealers *and* allow room for the stealers to get out. (They can move out of the way, but then they leave a hole in their wall for next turn)

So lets review:
We have 8 'gun platforms' *and* zoanthropes

No.  You've got 7 gun platforms, and 3 zoanthropes.  Those 7 gun platforms are all T6, with a minimum of 4 wounds each.  The walking tyrant also generally has at least 4 additional wounds from tyrant guard.  If you give the heavy fexes reinforced chitin, that's a total of 34 T6 wounds. 

Unless you kill off a model entirely, you've done nothing to reduce the shooting potential coming back your way. 

We have 16 stealers, tightly packed so that 6 TMC's are totally blocking line of sight.
We have 6 TMC's that are packed so tightly that they are totally blocking LoS.
At the same time they are spread out enough that an Ord blast will only hit 1 of them.

6 MC's lined up base to base creates a wall 18" long.  An ordnance blast gets 1 model fully underneath, and at most 2 partials.  Usually, though, you've only got 4 or 5 MC's making a wall 12-15" long, as your gunfexes are holding back to pick off targets of opportunity.  Either way, that's enough to be able to screen the counter-assault elements from incoming fire.

We have a piece of terrain that is so large, that they all get cover saves.
We have terrain so close together, that they can 'hop' from one to another, even with a 6" move.
The terrain is simultaneously spread out enough that they have an 18" 'bubble' to shoot you. Nothing is blocking their line of sight.

 The available terrain is relatively unimportant.  A cover save is nice, but usually the only ones who get that are the 5-wound gunfexes holding the rear. 

We have stealers that are *behind* the TMC's, have a move of 6+d6+6 assault range, yet will come and get you if you get "close" to the '18" bubble" range.
We have an opponent, that knows there are 16 tightly packed stealers, yet decides that Ordinance is better used getting one hit on a fex, instead of hitting all 16 of the stealers.
We have an opponent that is worried about losing a unit in exchange for flaming those tightly packed stealers into charred bits.

 Sure, you can use indirect ordanace to take out the stealers.  Which means you're playing SM, Guard, or Chaos.  If you're playing Chaos, you're talking defilers.  With IG, you're talking basilisks.  And with SM, you're talking whirlwinds.  good options, either way...but you're still talking only a 33% chance of hitting the target.  scatter off the target and you're only killing a handful. 

In addition, with defilers and basilisks, you've got to worry about minimum range.  Your indirect ordnance has gone down first, before any of the mobile MC's or genestealers has been placed.  So you've got one, maybe two turns before the targets are inside the minimum range. 

Now, you can also try to get a flamer in range to hit those genestealers.  To do that, you've got to get the transport within 12" of the genestealers, the turn before.  You've got to keep that transport out of LOS, because 12" is within range of the S5/6 devourers and venon cannons carried by the MC shieldwall, and also have to keep that transport out of LOS of the gunfexes, zoanthropes, and flyrants.  Or you can try it flamer-carrying bikes...same problem.  Sure you can turbo-boost the bikes...but the 'nids shooting doesn't care about the invulnerable save.

In other words, to take out those genestealers...just how many points of units are you going to be dedicating to that task?  And how much less AP2-3 firepower does the rest of your army have left to deal with the real threat...the MCs.

The TMC's have a "3 FOOT diameter", yet we are playing on a "6 FOOT" table.
We have 6 TMC's that are controlling the game from the "center" of the table, yet somehow got there while moving 6" a turn, apparently always under cover, and never allowing LoS to the stealers.
We have a flyrant with a "5 FOOT" radius, of course that means he is out on his own for a turn, with a weapon that kils what, 1-2 marines in a turn? And if we can assault it, we can't get shot.

Dakkafexes can hit targets within a 4' diameter circle.  Flyrants have a 5 foot diameter threat radius.  That's simple mathematics. 

Sure if you can isolate a flyrant, you can tie it up, and maybe even kill it.  but just how are you assaulting it?  anything on foot has an assault range of 12".  Jump pack troopers are another option, but then you're depending on the flyrant to move into good range for you.   

We have carnifexes that will move 6" to kill landspeeder, yet somehow is always in cover, and still blocks LoS to the stealers.
This carnifex will "kill speeders dead" eventhough statiscally it will get 3 glances, and thus only a 40% chance of rolling a 'destroy'. (But to be fair, can also get an immobilize, etc.)
Luckily, those speeders come *standard* with a 36" range. (for 20pts we can get a 48" twinlinked blast.)
The Gunfex is still in range, of course it will only get 1.4 glances per turn, so fire away.
(BTW, it is S10 VC and S8 BS)

To really get those stealers, you need to get the assault cannon within range.  Doing that brings you within 24".

And again, how many points are you putting into those speeders, which do next to nothing against the MCs. 

Sure, they can only glance.  But 3 glances is enough for a statistical kill, and any glancing hits means the speeder's not shooting next turn, or at least loses the assault cannon. 

We *know* there are 'easy to kill' parts, yet continually decide to leave them for last.

Yeah, I can understand why folks keep losing to Nidzilla lists....

Sure, you can try to maneuver and get the shots to kill off the softer parts.  but then you're putting your troops out of position to deal with the real threats.  and you've got to do it quick, or else the heavy hitters are in range. 

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/22/2007 1:33 PM

The bugs (mostly) stay clustered together for mutual support; in a way it's a new variation of the powerful shooty "castle" armies of third edition, like the SM Razorback army of shooty death. Except that the bugs trade long range for steady but moderate mobility, and big bugs can't suffer Crew Shaken. They also don't have the low-AP firepower of marines, but they make up for that in HtH.

I like this analogy. I find that in early 3rd edition the razorback spam was not nearly as obnoxious as the Godzilla lists.

Atleast you could take out a razorback with one shot....

This army has many of the elements that were distasteful in third edition and made it unique to a single army such as screening.

as far as how to use DA and win against nidzilla, .....all I can say is good luck.
GW better get on the ball and balance the Nids to the DA (as counter intuitive as that sounds).

Which is just not fair, it seems that DA had a whole lot of points increases, and decreased a whole lot of customization (while getting rid of pointless choices which is good) a lot of the things that DA players enjoy, like plasma ended up costing more points, while rhinos (death coffins) went down in points but are still steel traps.

Either way, all you can get for DA's is luck against a nid list. I would think some termies with hammers would work but hell even that doesn't seem to make sense.

Yeah,if you went hardcore Deathwing with it,you might have a chance.   In that case,you'd probably want to send a Ravenwing squad after the 'stealers to keep them off of your termies.  Maybe even pull a Droppod Deathwing Assault on a couple of the pockets of MC's on turn 1.  One good thing about Termie heavy lists is that if you get some dice luck,they can be really hard to beat.  Of course,the reverse is true,too,but as strong as 'nidzilla is,DW probably gives you as good a chance as any.

Azriel, Baliel with lighting claws, 5 termies 4 with lc 1 ac powerfist and banner is a blender to any unit in the game. I'm pretty sure they could take on/finish off most TMC's in a zilla list that get into the firing line after a few turns of shooting.

The point of my last post,the 'review' was to highlight that when people talk about what the Zilla army 'can do', they don't take into account that while they can do any of those things, they can't do all of those things.

Case in point, In the preceding posts, we have gunfexes walking in the wall to protect the stealers, and we have gunfexes in the background, in cover, looking for targets.

We have the wall o'Niddy death heading towards the center to control the board, and yet walking towards where ever the defiler is to get within range.

Yes, it can do any of these things, but not all of them. Every decision the Nid player makes, is a choice, and as it strengthens one aspect, it weakens another. If they place the wall to front, it weakens the sides. If they leaves a gunfex on a hill for better targeting, it leaves it without as much support. If they take the gunfex for support, it weakens it target acquisition

Place the defiler in the corner, pick the side where the Nids will have the least cover. Now if they want to 'close the gap', they can't control the middle.

Once the HS is down, you pretty much know where the whole Nid army is going.

If he is going with a Wall to block LoS, spread out your fast attack, and quickly get past that line. You can assault the gunfexes if they are left behind, or you can shoot at the stealers once past the wall.

They can turn to face you, but only by weakening the wall in other directions. And if you send bikes/vehicles/whatever on both sides of the Nids, even better.

THere are only 16 stealers (from our example), you only need to kill a few. And yes, it is worth it to give up a more expensive unit to get rid of those stealers.

Devilfex has a 24" range, but not in all directions, unless they split up.

A devilfex shooting at a squad of 3 speeders: 6 hits so two on each
one glance on each.

To be 'enough' to be sure to down the squadron, it is likely to take all 3 fexes.

Tactic: Take a turn or two hiding from gunfexes and shooting stealers at range. Kill 6-8.
Rush in and kill 8-10 stealers. On the same turn, begin moving units into the 18" range.
Nid dilemma, shoot the speeders, or the oncoming assautl forces? The HB/AC squad of 3 can do 3.444 wounds to a T6 2+ fex (assuming no cover)

Tactic: if they leave gunfexes behind, try and assault them first, as they are out of support range. Or use the landspeeders to take them out.The HB/AC squad of 3 can do 3.444 wounds to a T6 2+ fex (assuming no cover)
Also, use other TMC's to block the gunfex line of sight.


Anyway, I really don't know the other codex's well enough to continue. The weakness of the fex-line is assault. But they ahve the stealers,so take out the stealers, and assault.

They are also slow, don't worry about winning in the first 2-3 turns, and use better mobility to stay at your optimum distance.
Along with that, a good chunk of their firepower is fairly short ranged. Killing 4 stealers from 30" is better than killing 10 from 18".
They have a limited number of units. It will take 3 devil fex to take out a speeder squadron. They can be overwhelmed. You just need to be patient in setting this up.

It is hard to discuss specifics, since everyone has a different idea of what makes up a Nidzilla list. And how to counter it will depend on which army. Since I don't have the DA codex, I can't be of much specific help.

Just remember their weaknesses, and that they can't do everything at once. Force them to make choices, and exploit what they didn't choose.

There is really only one way for this to end. I'll have to drive out to where coredump lives with a Godzilla list and show him how it works. ;-)

What Centurian has described is fairly accurate. Bug placement and tactics change with each army, scenario, and terrain layout each seperate game presents. I myself don't use Zopes and I have 4-5 squads of 6 stealer with 4+ saves.

The Gunfexes stay behind, usaully skirting the deployment zone. After 3 HV deployments the Zilla opponent won't know where the main body is going yet. The main body consists of a walking shooty Tyrant (with 2 guard) and 3 elite fexes. These 4 TMC's will provide a wall only when necessary. Sometimes a heavy fex is thrown into the mix. The walking tyrant will deploy in the center of the line with 2 guard in front. Any shots directed at him will go to guard. He lives and lives and lives. The Flyrant is sometimes off on his own and sometimes behind the main body. It all depends on the situation. Never underestimate him though.

I myself can have the seperate squads of stealers on their own or behind the wall. Sometimes they split up and do both. Smaller squads grouped close by (not BtB, but close) and strung out in a line with a lone representive in front allows for 2-4 fleet rolls to get the 6.

Most games I would say I don't use a wall. Sometimes I will spread out and let the opponent decide what will kill him. Whatever he doesn't shoot, gets him.

Centurian has won the Adepticon Gladiator. I have won the Adepticon Gladiator and I have run 2 others. The only time I have ever lost with Godzilla was against another Godzilla list run by the guy who runs the whole Adepticon event (and he's a veteran Godzilla player also). Two years ago my Godzilla list swamped the Gladiator champ and his list and the Adepticon open champion and his list in the same tournament (remember I can't play because I run the events). These are not local tournament champs. These are not hobby shop lists I'm talking about and when I play I like to use my mouth so I know they were trying to beat me.

But look so many things in 40K is regional. In Chicago we almost never use book scenarios, we use custom objective based mission with 3 tiers of objectives. We also use a good deal of terrain. 25-30% of the board has terrain, sometimes more. Both of these work to the Godzilla lists advantage.

To be honest our arguments should not be enough to persuade you. You should find out for yourself and make an informed decision based on those events and not what we say on this forum.

Ok now I know this isn't the correct place but since it seems to be degenerating into a &&$$ing match between DA versus Tyranid players, how about I mention a force that crumples a Nidzilla list.

Autarch on Jet Bike with Reaper Cannon, Laser Lance, and Mandiblaster.

2 squads of 5 Wraithguard, Warlock with Singing Spear and Destructor, Wave Serpent with Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones.

2 squads of 10 Dire Avengers with exarch shimmer shield, power sword, blade storm, defend

2 Fire Prisms with Shuriken Cannons, Holofield, Vectored Engines, Spririt Stones

We really need to put this to the test. DA VS NIDS... I got one win for us already. /grin

 

 

 

The best way to beat 'nidzilla will probably be to wait until GW writes a new 'nid codex.  Then,if their current theme holds true,they'll cut out at least 3/4 of the 'nids options and they'll be brought crashing back down to the rest of the pack.  That,and 3/4 of the 'nid players will cry about it.  Seriously,though,with the insane amount of options given to 'nids,it's no wonder they're one of the top armies out there.  The abuse of that list is probably a big reason why the new codex's,starting with DA,are getting a lot of options stripped away.

The key to fighting Nids is two Devastator squads. All with Lascannons and combat squadd'ed out. That's 8 Lascannon shots per turn, and it comes to 610 points.

It's the only way to get lots of AP2 death, and it's all long range. Granted it's not as efficient as Las/Plas, but it works out to be about 153 points per 5 Guys with two Lascannons, in 4 separate targets for the Nid player. Use your troops (be they bikes or just tacticals) as what they are practically designed for - rapid fire/assault in cheap little rhino's and try and kill the big bugs - or sit back and bolter the smaller guys as they advance.

From my experience vs. Nids you throw Lascannons at them and focus fire on one MC at a time, and you can do well assuming you have some counter charge for their Flyrant and enough dakka to down their Stealers/Raveners/Gaunts before they hit your lines. These must come from separate units.

The only problem with DA's is that you don't get something that's really efficient (vs Nidzilla) in Troops - so you're stuck with Tac squads (or bikes if you wanted to risk it).

I am in NYC, you are more than welcome.

Of course, it will be my stealers and raveners against your fexes.... I only play Nids, so far at least.

I realize that Nidzilla is a powerful list, I don't think it is winning by pure random luck. But many of these threads are too full of "They can do everything" to have much credence. They have a certain 'Chicken Little' theme about them.

People start ranting about how powerful they are because they can A,B,C,D,E,F...... without stopping to realize that those were 6 different lists, with 6 different sets of advantages and disadvantages. You will hear that they have 8 TMC's, 32 guants, 30 stealers, 4 raveners, 3 Zoans, the Zoans will have synapse, and warp blast, and Scream, the gunfex will be in back sniping, and in a wall protecting, the stealers will be totally out of sight, yet can crush you if you get within 24". That kind of stuff

I am not saying there is an easy button to just beat all zilla lists, but there is an almost hysteria about them. It would be more useful for folks to chill and try and figure out how to beat them, besides just assuming they are unbeatable.
I am not posturing that I can beat them all the time, I don't usually play Nid vs Nid, so it doesn't really affect me. But I also know they have weaknesses.

If I really get bored, or decide to really put off working this week, maybe I will try and design a SM list that can handle a Zilla army, and still deal with other threats.

I will admit there is a hysteria about the Godzilla list being unbeatable in my (current) area...Got tanked on all my soft scores for taking a downgraded one in a tournament.

If people would take time to analyze it instead of just feeding off the fear, it probably wouldn't be that bad.

Posted By skyth on 04/23/2007 4:25 AM
I will admit there is a hysteria about the Godzilla list being unbeatable in my (current) area...Got tanked on all my soft scores for taking a downgraded one in a tournament.

If people would take time to analyze it instead of just feeding off the fear, it probably wouldn't be that bad.

It's not unbeatable, but you seriously need to bring rediculous amounts of firepower and your own cheesiest army lists to combat it on any kind of an even footing.

I mean, this is what happens when a really good and powerful army type comes out.  Here's the difference though, I wouldn't pull out my Las/Plas+ Assault Cannons+Counter Charge army out for your average 40k game at my local GW.  How often do Nids players pull out Godzilla for "friendly games"?  There's pretty much no difference between Godzilla and your other top-tier armies, and there's really no toning it down without droping a lot of TMC's which makes it not Godzilla.   Like Mech Tau you can tone down for fun games, Marines are the same way, Eldar too, even Chaos.  Godzilla you really can't.

I mean honestly they're a top tier army, not quite as broken as IW, but definitely up there with say "Ass cannon marines" and Mech Tau/Eldar.

I think the combined arms shooty Razorback heavy list has the best chance.

It I was playing that list versus Nidzilla, I would deploy mostly in a corner and use my Razorbacks as blocking terrain, while my long range heavy weapons shoot diagonally across the board at the other flank.

That way you take away a lot of the Godzilla Nids ability to shoot you and whittle down your squads and you can slowly where down one of his flanks. Then it is a matter of dealing with the other side, which you can do with late in the game charges by assault squads and Terminators.

I would also use cheap Dro Pod Scouts or DA veterans in a drop pod to try and eliminate the Geenstealer rear.

Just a quick opinion question: Would godzilla still exist if the elitefex option would be strapped?

And another serious, yet inexperienced question, how much counterattack does a Godzilla list has if there are TMC all over the place?

Greets
Schepp himself

No elite fex = no Nidzilla

But it is useful model in lots of lists, not just Zilla.


And it is almost impossible to define. There is a decent amount of variation in Zilla lists. Also depends on the points level and such.


Also, many (most?) of the Zilla players I know and know of, are not long term Nids players. They sort of jumped on the idea of a Zilla army.

There are three "categories" of Nidzilla lists, I have played and lost to all of them, but they are general categories I find are useful:

Steeler Horde Nidzilla - This list favors packing as many 'Stealers as possible around at least 5 TMCs, most of the time a player of this list will find Carapace Armor on Geenstealers "not worth it" and just go for a general run at you playstyle. This is probably the least effective Nidzilla list and it is actually quite beatable. For example, my team at adepticon beat this list with Gaurdian heavy Eldar.

Choir Nidzilla - This list drops a Gun Fex in favor of the "Choir" I.E.Zoenthropes. I classify this as the second most effective list in the game, as against some armies the choir is very useful and against others... not so much.

Nidzilla - Thit is what I consider the most unbeatable list in the game, 6 Carniefexes, 3 Dakka, 3 Gun, with Walking Tyrant and bodygaurd and Flyrant. Usually has 3 or four "stealer squads with Carapace armor hiding behind the big bugs, you can also see Ravengers and Rippers running around to tie up units too. Casi Belli took this to the Team Tournament and placed 4th out of 96 teams. I say this is the most effective list because there are hardly any other list out there that can match it in straight up power, and it will be 100% effective against any enemy unlike the choir who looses something if it faces Fearless or other armies.


Nidzilla is hard to beat, especially in a take all comers setting like a tournament. If you ever face them here are the top two priorities you have:

1) Kill the support structure first - the Carnifexes in the list relly on the counter attack they have to keep them safe, however you can do it, kill any fast moving assault that they have over the Carnifexes

2) Flank them - I.E. use their advantage to you betterment. All Nidzilla is thinking is reaching the center most games, if you put a hurting on the flank of them they will have to go through their own models to get to you. This is where good assault units come in. Usually you can kill a Carnifex or two with a good assault unit. Just make sure you have eliminated any counter attack they have.

Whatever you do, you have to minimize the effectiveness of their army. That can be accomlished by blocking their lines of fire, indirecting their stealers, etc. It is an uphill battle, but doable

Mahu that is perhaps the most useful explanation of Zilla nids I have seen and thank you for writing it, i've only hit the choir before and it was pretty rough but with that kind of advice, especially the DA specific advice (Razorback spam) im thinking that its not entirely impossible to beat the zillas with DA.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 7:10 AM
 there's really no toning it down without droping a lot of TMC's which makes it not Godzilla.   Like Mech Tau you can tone down for fun games, Marines are the same way, Eldar too, even Chaos.  Godzilla you really can't.

Sure you can...No flying Tyrant, No Tyrant Guard, No Raveners.

Given the direction of the DA codex, I think its safe to assume that Nidzilla lists will be heavily toned down. My guess is carnifex's will be either elite only or HS only. MC are too good to allow that many.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Having played it for a while and seen other people's lists I don't get why they take stealers anymore. They're just walking vps to an army that doesn't want to assault you.

IW for example, or Mecha Tau or Eldar, can score big vps by killing your stealers in short order with heavy bolters/burst cannons/scatterlasers/etc. Or they can waste their fire on little bugs that are 1/3rd the pts and nearly as tough.

I stomp Tau like a chump, but I doubt I'd do that without 40 little bugs to throw at their crisis suits to force them back off of my big bugs

My list is, btw:
1850
Flyrant of choppiness
Little tyrant with 2 guard/vc/devs

3 mini-fexes

5 x 8 spinegaunts

2 gunfexes tricked out with 2+/T7/Regenerate/5W (yeah I know I'm a dork)
3 zoeys (synapse, 2 warp blast, 3 psychic scream)

3 x 1 ravener


My ravs get on people, the stealers didn't. My spinegaunts can be used offensively as a pushback unit whereas the stealers either A) sit around dicking off until I get assaulted, b) get shot. Either way the gaunts are useful the whole game whereas the stealers are kinda useless most of it.

Ok, I had another idea for a list. I'll write it up tonight, but how about taking a drop-pod of shotgun armed scouts w/ hidden fist, and another drop-pod of Veterans with flamers and fists/TH. Supported by Dev's w/ Lascannons/PlasmaCannons, and Tactical Squads w/ Meltas and Lascannons and fists w/ Razorback transports.

The idea is to drop in the pods to clear the screen of stealers/gaunts, then in later turns assault the big bugs and use the fists to take them out. This somewhat requires both pods to land at the same time, but I figure luck will be needed to beat Nidzilla's no matter what.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Who's your daddy?

Drop podding close to nidzilla seems really scary to me. You can get in on turn two at best, meaning you can't assault till turn 3. Thats at least 12" of movement given to the nids, giving them serious advancement across the board. If you do DP into the nids on turn two, they will be setup to absorb the deepstrike. But I could be really wrong on that one.

So I can't get close to Nidzillas, cause they'll eat me, I can't stay away, as they will shoot me (with things that will eat me) and I can't outmaneuver them as they can move and fire their guns...

$%!@! I'm dead no matter what!

Seriously, I think clearing the screen and then pounding them w/ fists to death may work. 3 vets with fists/th get 12 attacks on charge.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, the usual advice of "assault the shooty bits, shoot the assaulty bits", continues to apply. It's just that the overall durability and mobility of the list make it harder than usual.

As with the old 3rd-ed style shooty castle lists, the close proximity of units helps them support one another. But the bugs are fully mobile while shooting, and have more inherent resilience to assault. A unit without a Fist or Rending generally shouldn't assault even a pure shooty Carnifex, unlike an IG, Eldar, or SM shooty unit, which can generally be beaten down by 3-4 basic assault guys who manage to live long enough to get there.

The old shooty castle armies, due to their vulnerability to assault, also tended to cede the center of the table and control of objectives to any surviving enemy forces. Often their strategy had to be to ignore the objectives and just kill the enemy, reasoning that the objectives were irrelevant if there were no enemy units alive or over half to hold them. For example, Ed's old 3rd ed shooty SM and IG lists. If they failed in this, sometimes the opponent's surviving forces (even if the army was badly mauled), could still hold the objectives/quadrants and win the game. The bugs, OTOH, can keep moving towards the objectives while shooting, and without compromising (usually) their counterassault ability.

So far my successes against Nidzilla and semi-Zilla lists (I?m overall at 3 wins, a loss and a draw against them using Eldar in the loss and Chaos in the others) have relied on a strategy of trying to encourage my opponents to spread out at least a little, using concentrated firepower to drop one big bug at a time, and using terrain and superior mobility to try and delay the bulk of his guns getting into range. And assaulting later in the game once (if) I?m able to break the units apart so they?re not intersupporting closely enough.

Obviously with so few games I don?t have a lot of experience, and none of my opponents have been really top-tier bug players; two of them were very competitive Adepticon teams, though (No FN Mournival and Lictor My Spores).

Posted By Hellfury on 04/22/2007 2:54 PM
This army has many of the elements that were distasteful in third edition and made it unique to a single army such as screening.

It's ironic.  In 3rd ed Tyranids were the only army that couldn't use screening.  Shoot The Big Ones indeed.

What was that placebo song about role reversals?

I have to agree with Mannahnin about using deployment and movement to force your opponent to spread out, and even more importantly, concentrating on a single enemy unit until it is dead if at all possible. Obviously, 2 Dakkafexes with 1-2 wounds left each will kill twice as many as one fully healthy one and one dead one.

My main army for the last few years has been DE, and using the above tactics, I haven't really had any trouble with 'Nidzilla armies, whether they are Scream armies, 'Stealer armies, or 'Gaunt armies. The worst trouble I had was with a 'Stealer/Scream combo army in a mission that used the sustated attack(assaul?) rule. It's not fair that when I killed one of his Troops units, he got a brood of Genestealers on my doorstep, and when he killed a unit of my Troops, I got a sniper squad.

I've had similar success with my infiltrating Alpha Legion. Using the infiltrating deployment is almost as good as high mobility to spread your opponent out. Also, my AL is very shooty, with lots of plasma and melta (with a smattering of Las/Plas), so I could usually take out 1-1&1/2 MC's per turn, and the ton of auto cannons did a big number on the smaller bugs. If it became needed, I also had three Power fists, coupled with the good old nasty infiltrating lord/leiutenant who could usually kamikaze attack and take out an MC by themselves as long as shooting had done 1-2 wounds to it.

Sal

Hey I've already admitted I was wrong on stealers originally. Playing a few more games sold me on the little fellas. Having 40+ expendable dudes really screws with other people's gameplan of "shoot the big bugs one at a time" because they have to stop and shoot the little ones or else.

I still am in ahh to the fact that people think this list is so darn hard? An army that shoot, and assaults? First off you get a save vs any weapon that they have. If you dont via zons, just space your units out. Very few of his units will be able to move fast. That in turn is going to give you plenty of time to burn him down. Maybe you should invest in more in troop instead of termies with assault cannon. Waiting on a six to pay off is pointless in a game, and 260 ish point for your termi unit is a big chunck of change to have in a five man unit. If you are getting pounded into the dirt via Nids, then I would look to the general of the DA player. 

Also posting a battle report from last night NID VS Green Marine/DA if you want to read up. Hats off to David the nid player and to find out  who won, well you will just have to see the report!

 

 

 

 

 

Read your report. The army you faced wasn't a Nidzilla force though, it was pretty much a standard Nid army. Those I can beat just fine, its the Nidzilla version that I think is going to give DA a major headache.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

DE are actually one of the armies that has little problem with nidzillas. You've got so many blasters, dark lances, disintigrators, and agonizers that nidzillas just get swamped before they get into range.

Posted By Tarval on 04/27/2007 5:50 PM

I still am in ahh to the fact that people think this list is so darn hard? An army that shoot, and assaults? First off you get a save vs any weapon that they have. If you dont via zons, just space your units out. Very few of his units will be able to move fast. That in turn is going to give you plenty of time to burn him down. Maybe you should invest in more in troop instead of termies with assault cannon. Waiting on a six to pay off is pointless in a game, and 260 ish point for your termi unit is a big chunck of change to have in a five man unit. If you are getting pounded into the dirt via Nids, then I would look to the general of the DA player. 

Also posting a battle report from last night NID VS Green Marine/DA if you want to read up. Hats off to David the nid player and to find out  who won, well you will just have to see the report!

I stopped reading after I realized your tyranid opponent took warriors.  No offense, but warriors are about the most sub-optimal choice in the nid dex. 

DE are the only army that think of Zilla Nids as a freebie

actually I think DE are a brutal meta choice right now, I'm rather surprised that so few people field them.

Ugly models, and they're only available through mail order.

Yeah, but they are so easy to get through ebay. Just about my entire force is from e-bay.

The exception are my wyches, which are converted from Dark Elf Witch Elves so they actually look decent.

As much as I love DA, I'm bringing DE to the local RT tournament this summer.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I was thinking the other day about possibly using a pure Ravenwing army to take on Nidzilla. Lots of mobile firepower and high toughness. If any of you are still reading this, how would this work:

Master Sammael - 205 points
- Landspeeder variant
6 - Ravenwing Attack Squad- 365 pts
Vet Sgt w/ Fist, 2 x Plasma Guns, Apothecary, Ravenwing Standard
1 - Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
6 - Ravenwing Attack Squad - 325 pts
Vet Sgt w/ Fist, 2 x Plasma Guns
1 - Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
6 - Ravenwing Attack Squad - 375 pts
1 - Landspeeder Tornado
Assault Cannon, Hvy Bolter
1 - Ravenwing Landspeeder Tornado - 100 points
Assault Cannon, Hvy Bolter
1 - Ravenwing Landspeeder - 65 pts
Multi Melta
1- Ravenwing Landspeeder - 65 pts
Multi-Melta

Total: 1500

6 plasma guns, 4 multi-meltas, 3 hvy bolters, 3 assault cannons, 3 fists
25 models, 13 scoring units

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Would you pounce on one fex at a time? Coming from a few different directions like?

I think this list could kill one zilla a turn, maybe two at close range. Once the little bugs are cleared out by the landspeeders, get up close, rapid fire the plasmas and then assault.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

To be really effective, it's still got to get too close to the zilla's ozzy. They've got to expose themselves to return fire. Misjudge the distances just a bit, and the return fire from the devourers & venom cannons is going to smoke you.

I agree, in order for this list to work, one would have to play super tight. I think that with correct deployment and good target priority, it could actually do some damage. At this point, DA's are screwed no matter what vs. Zillas, running a Ravenwing army against them would be unorthodox and might just be crazy enough to work.

I have two more Ravenwing army boxes to buy before I can even field this list, but I'm planning on giving it a try.

Ozymandias, King of Kings