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Post by: Frazzled
From Warseer thread started by Gav Thorpe on what veterans want. Here is a later statement: <table id="post1567014" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" width="100%" align="center" border="0" class="tborder"> <tbody> <tr valign="top"> <td class="alt2" id="td_post_1567014" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid"> You go away for a few days, and then suddenly it gets busy again!  The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite. The conditions in which I became a hobbyist were very different to those today, just as the gaming hobby was very different when the likes of Rick and Jervis were growing up. It is because of this that perhaps I don't really sympathise with some of the issues being raised in this thread - not that they are not geniune concerns, simply that I have never found myself in a similar situation. I never had a venue other than my parents' house to play in. I didn't have access to a wealth of advice and discussion on the internet. I certanly didn't have starter sets and army books to get me started. These days an incredible amount of effort is expended introducing people to the principles of collecting, painting and playing with miniatures. Many of us take for granted what a wealth of knowledge we have accumulated over our years of gaming, and forget how little we knew when we started. Our aim is to remove as many obstacles as possible that stand in the way of people who are going to enjoy collecting, painting and playing with toy solders - what we call the 'hobby gene'. For me, beng a veteran is about being the controller of your hobby. A veteran has the experience and knowhow to own their own hobby and to know what they want from it. A hobby is a personal thing and miniatures are no different. A veteran knows what sorts of games he likes to play - competetive tournements, wacky scenarios etc – and he understand his level of painting and modelling, the armies the collects, the types of miniatures he likes and so forth. Once a hobbyst has been introduced to the possibilities available, they will make their own informed choices. However, it's important for everyone to remember that a hobby is a personal journey, each person gets something different out of it, and it's not the place of GW or others to dictate to individuals what their hobby should be. One of the things we are looking to do is make sure that we continue to support all of those possible choices in a better fashion. We'll run GTs and other events for players that like that sort of thing, but we'll also still have Golden Demon for the painters, Black Library for the background-lovers, Forgeworld for the treadheads, and so on. What we've identified as being a gap in recent years is the 'non-Codex' gaming side of things. We recognise how popular Kill team was in the 40K rulebook, for instance. We have a number of supplements planned that will give gamers more variety - different game types like Cities of Death, campaign tools such as Mighty Empires, large free-for-alls in Apocalypse, and others. We're also dedicating some time to purely collectible miniatures as part of our direct sales offer. Over the last couple of years there has been lots of talk about the 'veteran offer' in the Design Studio, and it is an area we're seeking to address, so it pains me to see people claim that ' GW' doesn't care about veterans. On the suggestion about the evolving storyline, this has proven to be impracticable. The Warhammer and 40K background exist as settings in which players can create their own armies and battles, write their own stories and invent their own characters. They serve as a backdrop, not an ongoing narrative. To overlay too much narrative onto this background will again start to restrict the choices players can make. Have Grimgor leading your Orcs army? You can make up any number of storylines for him. However, if we followed through on Storm of Chaos any longer, for example, players would have to wait for GW to tell them what their 'army' is up to. Although we create the background, we've come to realise it is a shared part of the hobby as much as anything else, and it's not there for us to hijack away from players. We've managed to get into a position where officialdom and dictating the hobby to players has created a great deal of restriction about what people collect, how they paint, how they game, and how they interact with the background. Our aim is to release hobbyists from these constraints so that they are again free to enjoy toy soldiers in whatever way the like, without GW (or the community) having to endorse it. I hope that makes my position a little clearer. Cheers, GAV <!-- / message --></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid">   </td> <td class="alt2" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid" align="right"><!-- controls --></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83428&page=16
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Post by: ancientsociety
Let's do a bit of interpretation, shall we?
"These days an incredible amount of effort is expended introducing people to the principles of collecting, painting and playing with miniatures."
-and little or no thought is put into keeping our veteran customers happy and their years of experience and purcahsing relevant...
"However, it's important for everyone to remember that a hobby is a personal journey, each person gets something different out of it "
-GW gets your money, new gamers get hooked, and veterans get shafted. I guess it is a "personal journey", in the sense that you're on your own
"and it's not the place of GW or others to dictate to individuals what their hobby should be."
-then why allow only GW minis in sponsored games or @ stores? why regulate what units/armies are and are not legal?
"One of the things we are looking to do is make sure that we continue to support all of those possible choices in a better fashion.....(etc)"
-Did he mention ANYTHING AT ALL that wasn't something new? I see he failed to include any "Specialist Games", older armies, etc. Yep, it's great that the only thing GW actively supports is anything "new and improved"!
"One of the things we are looking to do is make sure that we continue to support all of those possible choices in a better fashion"
-Because we've stopped supporting every Specialist Game and have made entire minis/units obsolete, but hey, now they're "collectible"!!!
"On the suggestion about the evolving storyline, this has proven to be impracticable"
-We are hereby making all future campaigns meaningless....
"Our aim is to release hobbyists from these constraints so that they are again free to enjoy toy soldiers in whatever way the like, without GW (or the community) having to endorse it." -BEST GW DOUBLESPEAK EVER! So Gav, can I now use my Hasslefree Ratling Snipers @ my local GW? Can I use Zealots in my Withchunters army? Will you be making every Inquisitor mini available (including the Repentia, Kal Jericho, and Citizens) to us, and not just via "Direct Order"? Will you be rereleasing every 1st ed., non-SG Necromunda mini? No? Oh well.... And I'm so happy to have GW's "permission" to enjoy my wargames. I guess now I'm free to check out their competitors....?
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Post by: Asmodai
Thanks for the post.
I agree with his point about how too much 'meta-plot' gets in the way. I also like the support for multiple playstyles.
On the other hand, he says absolutely nothing substantial to show that GW cares about veterans, other than saying "We care about veterans." If you do, then you need to show us with your actions.
He also talks about getting rid of constraints, but the trend in recent GW publications has been to limit and restrict the ability of players to personalize and customize their armies. That seems inconsistent with his statement.
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Post by: malfred
By restrictions I think he's referring to being beholden to a plot.
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Post by: ancientsociety
jfrazell: Where on Warseer is this? I'd LOVE to share my thoughts....
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Post by: Frazzled
There are two threads, one in discussions and one where this came from (thread was at the bottom of the quote but here it is because I am a full service provider). http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83428&page=16
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Post by: ancientsociety
Oh, dur! It is at the bottom of your initial post! Sorry, the workweek has rotted my brain!
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Post by: Grot 6
Its good to see that Gav is still up to his old tricks of ruining the game. Company todie at his best, whose opinion is about as useless as he is. Then people wonder why the hobbie is falling by the wayside. Its because of strokes like this guy, continuously infringing on things that doesn't concern him. Thank this guy for about 50% of the mass confusion factor of the game. Go away, Gav, you noob! I'll be giving you something to chew on over on warseer, you pogue.
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Post by: Frazzled
Posted By ancientsociety on 05/18/2007 11:09 AM
Oh, dur! It is at the bottom of your initial post! Sorry, the workweek has rotted my brain!
No problem I could see where it could be missed.
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Post by: fellblade
<table id="post1567014" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" width="100%" align="center" border="0" class="tborder"> <tbody> <tr valign="top"> <td class="alt2" id="td_post_1567014" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid">
For me, beng a veteran is about being the controller of your hobby. A veteran has the experience and knowhow to own their own hobby and to know what they want from it. A hobby is a personal thing and miniatures are no different. A veteran knows what sorts of games he likes to play - competetive tournements, wacky scenarios etc – and he understand his level of painting and modelling, the armies the collects, the types of miniatures he likes and so forth. Once a hobbyst has been introduced to the possibilities available, they will make their own informed choices. However, it's important for everyone to remember that a hobby is a personal journey, each person gets something different out of it, and it's not the place of GW or others to dictate to individuals what their hobby should be.
<!-- / message --></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid"> </td> <td class="alt2" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid" align="right"><!-- controls --></td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
That resonates with me. I agree with the part about being the controller of my own hobby. Back to sixth edition Fantasy, boys! Screw these new army books, and the nerfing of our beloved units!
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Post by: Lormax
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...
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Post by: grimshawl
Its so stupid, Gav asked for Vets opinions and then disregarded all of it and climbs up on his GW soapbox to spew platitudes and obnoxious nothings down upon the crowd, I bet he even went smiling back to GW to get a pat on the back and tell everyone how he got all the vets back on the GeeDub Bandwagon.
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Post by: dienekes96
Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...
That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses. Dakka at it's worst.
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Post by: Frazzled
Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 1:26 PM Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...
That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses. Dakka at it's worst.
"The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite." You're right with statements like that why would the "fans" not respond in any way but a positive manner? Seriously the thread on warseer was a reaonable one right up to the point he re-posted.
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Post by: syr8766
Interesting comments. Unfortunately, as was stated, GW's Design team has done little-to-nothing to respond to Veterans' (a rather large catchall category, too) needs/desires/wishes.
Better than it used to be? In terms of product availability, diversity of product and the ability to share with the global community, it's probably a golden age right now. But comparing to the 'bad old days' of deodorant hovertanks and kitbashed 1/72nd WWII figures is not a productive response, anymore than, say, dienknes96's little anti-dakka statement above (I'm assuming you meant that to be self-deprecating, as you're posting here, right?). The reality is, just as there is more from GW, there is ALSO more from everyone else, and the consumer/hobbyist now has many, many options to chose from when it comes to gaming/toy soldier modeling. It's not the late-90s anymore, when GW was the last, best hope for gaming after the death of Target, Ral Partha/Fasa, etc.
Furthermore, saying that the design team is looking at ways to appeal to vets but SHOWING no concrete examples (White Dwarf and Black Gobbo mostly junk, no FAQs, the USGT system in shambles, and very little web-based or WD based Combat Patrol/Killteam/Warbands etc. support) is not helpful.
Most of the good stuff out there is fan generated, and yet there's no Citadel Journal (or its web equivalent) to be seen, and almost no input from fans on the outside, save occasionally asking a 'celebrity' painter (e.g. Lilliana Troy) to do up a squad or army (and are they even still doing that?).
I'm glad he came to chime in; really, I am. It's good to see that folks like Gav aren't just waiting for the throngs to come to them, and after mortifying their flesh and offering up hosannahs, asking what's new. Having said that, the burden of proof of intention lies on the shoulders of the design team and company. "Veterans" are less and less interested in giving them the benefit of the doubt, and a little bit of transparency is in order now.
Gav got one thing right, though: being a vet. player means owning the hobby. Not the game designer, not the sculptor, and not the CEO, but the player, which means I can take my time, money and interest somewhere else. Gav should listen to himself.
EDIT: forgot to qualify my sentence above. Italics there to indicate new text.
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Post by: Lemartes
syr8766 sums it up perfectly. I have been with GW for a long time and thier seems to be better product on the market now and the competition for the gameing community is fiercer than ever and it seems rather than hold on to thier long time loyal fan base they rather dump it and start from scratch. Problem is the veteren crowd goes with another company and promotes that other company to the newer kids/customers just starting out. GW loses customers and stock value and starts to eat it's own (closing stores). It's a viscious cycle.
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Post by: ether dude
What I see that people haven't already mentioned is that Gav is pushing "non-codex" hobby stuff; GTs, painting intros, starter sets, campaign tools etc. but he never addresses the issues of players WITHOUT codecies (orks). Here's a demonstration:
Store owner: "So, I'm starting up a local group to play in [insert appocalyptic name here] which uses GW's new campaing book, would you like to join?"
SM player: "Sure, let me just choose one of the 5 major codecies that are out on my army and I'll get back to you"
Ork player: ...in all honesty, I have never even met someone who plays orks and my FLGS doesn't even carry them anymore. It's officially reached joke status at this point.
cheers
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Post by: Ozymandias
Can you imagine if Gav posted here? Wow...
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Wayfarer
Can anyone define 'Veteran' as it pertains to the GW hobby? Honestly I want to know what the qualifications are.
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Post by: dienekes96
Posted By jfrazell on 05/18/2007 1:42 PM Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 1:26 PM Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...
That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses. Dakka at it's worst.
"The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite." You're right with statements like that why would the "fans" not respond in any way but a positive manner? Seriously the thread on warseer was a reaonable one right up to the point he re-posted.
I was talking about the thread here. I was talking about the attitude of the posts, not the content. I don't believe I stated that responses should be "positive". I used "reasonable and mature", concepts apparently foreign to serial whiners. There is plenty of legit GW decisions to complain about, but the whining has become not the means to an end, but the end itself for some hobbyists.
It's childish, churlish, and pointless. I usually just let it slide, but this thread hit critical mass in the first page. I commented.
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Post by: ancientsociety
Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 5:23 PM Posted By jfrazell on 05/18/2007 1:42 PM Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 1:26 PM Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...
That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses. Dakka at it's worst.
"The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite." You're right with statements like that why would the "fans" not respond in any way but a positive manner? Seriously the thread on warseer was a reaonable one right up to the point he re-posted.
I was talking about the thread here. I was talking about the attitude of the posts, not the content. I don't believe I stated that responses should be "positive". I used "reasonable and mature", concepts apparently foreign to serial whiners. There is plenty of legit GW decisions to complain about, but the whining has become not the means to an end, but the end itself for some hobbyists.
It's childish, churlish, and pointless. I usually just let it slide, but this thread hit critical mass in the first page. I commented.
Please DO NOT feed the Dakka Troll. Nothing to see here, move along....
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Post by: dienekes96
Yeah, *I'm* the Dakka troll.
That correlates with my posting history here.
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Post by: syr8766
Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 5:36 PM
Yeah, *I'm* the Dakka troll.
That correlates with my posting history here.
Easy, choomba. Relax, have a tall glass of lemonade. Here, I'll give you one.  It's the internet. Getting defensive on it is like losing a game of checkers to a 5-year old. Who doesn't know how to play. The hobby/non-standard stuff Gav is talking about is interesting to me, but I haven't seen them do a WD or BG article on Killteam or Combat Patrol since 2005. Ditto on Path To Glory/Border Patrol. I'd love to see a book devoted to those type of small-scale things, along with articles on escalation leagues etc., but other than COD and doing a lot of talking, all I see is bupkus.
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Post by: Jester
Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 5:36 PM
Yeah, *I'm* the Dakka troll.
That correlates with my posting history here.
First that crack about the Orks, now this? You need to be punched in that whorish mouth of yours, Chuck. To be honest, I didn't read all of Gav's post, for many of the same reasons I didn't read the entirety of Angels of Darkness, but I think I got the gist of it. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am, and always have been, my hobby. I have been buying lumps of lead, plastic and tin from GW at much higher than cost for more years that many of you. I have written multiple scenarios, painted hundreds of miniatures, and written page upon page of turgid fanfic. I've scraped more flash than Annie Leibowitz's coke mirror. Yet I have never gone to a Games Day, entered a Golden Daemon, or competed in a Grand Tournament, and I probably never will. Perhaps this doesn't make me a GW veteran, but I think it does. I just don't like to be talked down to, is all, and this fatherly pat-on-the-head of a post sounds like talking down to me. I understand that GW's main focus at this stage is to grow the fanbase, but to give meaningless platitudes to veterans is quite chafing, to say the least.
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Post by: Green Bloater
Gav is out there for sure but he did some innovative stuff during the third edition. What is funny is all his innovation is being pushed to the wayside except for what his pilgrim Phil Kelly has been able to keep alive.
- Greenie
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Post by: ender502
And does Gav even actually answer a question? Should we be mollified by him saying "we care"? I have heard that line from plenty of politicians and it is true.. at least until they cash your check and they are out the back of the tent. What is pissing off veteran players (besides prices and poorly written rules) is 1: a basic reduction of the game itself in the form of a lack of variability in the codices and 2: a strategy for changing the game that nerfs units because GW is too stupid to see the mistakes are or callously nerfing them to get you to spend more on a different unit. I am disgruntled. ender502
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Gavin can talk down to me as much as he likes, because I'll happily ignore him and go somewhere else.
There is collosal choice in the world of miniature wargaming nowadays. The Internet has created superb channels of communication and sales. Shows and competitions are booming and there are more and more companies offering figures in all scales, terrain pieces and add-ons like blast markers and pre-cut bases. (When I were a lad we had to cut our own bases from stiff card.) And there are more and more well-thought-out systems available like AT43, Infinity and so on. I'd almost say there are too many different rules-sets available -- go on a site like Caliver Books and you can find over 30 different books for Napoleonic rules.
In short, it's a great time to be a miniature wargamer. The difficulty is in choice and focus.
The problem with the "GW hobby" is only a problem if you fixate on GW and ignore the rest of the wargaming universe.
Fed up with too many Spase Marienz? Go and play some DBA ancients. The rules cost £6 and you can slap together a cool 6mm army for £25.
http://www.baccus6mm.com/index.php?content=products/ancient/25mm&detail=25mm
People can moan on Internet forums all they like. Corporations only understand what their balance sheet tells them.
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Post by: manitoujoe
Everyone has their opinion. I agree with Gav.
With something as rich and complex as 40k/Fantasy, there are bound to be differing opinions on how things should be handled, produced and tested. Personally, I just want to get with my group and have some fun. That's all. I don't need to play in GTs or compare paintjobs. Frankly, I'd probably lose.
I just know I don't want to be one of the two guys arguing rules in the corner of the gameshop, because that defeats the entire purpose of playing at all. if I wanted useless, mounting stress, I'd go back to work for a couple of hours. While it's important everyone gets a fair shake with the rules, it's equally important to remember why we're playing.
And Gav doesn't have to post, anyway. I think it's cool he did, though. Shows character, stepping into the lion's den like that.
My two cents.
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Post by: Orlanth
Gav Thorpe can happily natter in front of Warseer fanboys. Dare he come here?
GW already (quietly) acknowledges Dakka as the place to go to meet veteran gamers who know more than most, or at least more than they do. Probably why they stay the hell away.
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Post by: dienekes96
They stay away because there is no dialogue here. Why even bother? Minds are made up, facts are squeezed into opinions, and all they will get is a ton of grief for even trying.
It's not because they are scared of facing the AWESOME knowledge of the world-renowned Dakkaites...it's because it isn't even worth the trouble.
On my earlier comment...it's not me getting defensive. It's me getting amused.
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Post by: ancientsociety
Posted By dienekes96 on 05/19/2007 5:50 AM
They stay away because there is no dialogue here. Why even bother? Minds are made up, facts are squeezed into opinions, and all they will get is a ton of grief for even trying.
It's not because they are scared of facing the AWESOME knowledge of the world-renowned Dakkaites...it's because it isn't even worth the trouble.
On my earlier comment...it's not me getting defensive. It's me getting amused.
It's funny dienekes, you keep harping on about how there's "no content/logic/dialogue" on Dakka. Well, I haven't heard you astound us with your amazing logic and discourse, so please enlighten us plebs, with something other than "Dakka/this thread/Dakkaites suck because X". If you can't do that, then you're a) not truly contributing anything yourself, b) wasting our time, and c) making us all wonder why you post to a site you think so little of.....
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Post by: Orlanth
I am with ancient' here. Dakka is not short of people who know how to think.
If many of us are unhappy with GW its because we have LONG STANDING REASONS. Please dont mistake us for kiddies/dweebs with grudges.
Sure if any GW designer or policy maker came here they would get some fanboys, and plenty of flaming trolls. That is inevitable as anyone can post here. But they will also get home truths and opinions, and many of them would do them good.
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Post by: ender502
The reason there is no discourse is because there is only one meta-voice, dakka. GW never talks to us. They never have and they never will. They don't want public discourse. They don't want to explain their reasoning. Me? If GW posted here and said "it's all about the money. Now deal or flip off." I would give them props for at least being honest. If they said "look, it's a tension between making a game we like and making money. As a publicly traded company we have alot of voices that we didn't in the early years." I would give them crazy props. But they don't and won't say that. Because thta may lead to discourse. And discourse is a two way street. GW has shown no interest in that whatsoever. Don't run down Dakka just because GW doesn't have the cojones to talk WITH us instead of AT us. And let this be achallenge to GW... Come and talk to us. I for one will be civil. Our mods are great and will handle the trolls. Let us know what you're thinking and why. We will give you our opinions and maybe we can together (designers and players) help create a game that is great to play and profitable for the company. ender502
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Post by: Zubbiefish
Sure if any GW designer or policy maker came here they would get some fanboys, and plenty of flaming trolls. That is inevitable as anyone can post here. But they will also get home truths and opinions, and many of them would do them good. QFTAlso, I'm not thrilled with what Gav posted. He does a fine job of filling the page with hollow platitudes and non-information. I read it and my first thought was something along the lines of "Well that's a load of crap." Once I read it again I changed my oppinion to, "Well that's just too bad I guess." It's sad realy. I want to keep on liking GW and I want to be thrilled with the next big release (even if it is Marines) I want to want more GW stuff. I want them to take my money and my time. I want GW to grip me the way they grabbed hold of my imagination and made me want to play thier games back when I first got serious about mini-games. I'm pretty easy to please, I'll take the dumbed downed rules and the all plastic armies. Realy all I want from them is to can the attitude. Syr's right Gav should listen to himself. It's a contract between the company and the players whereby they provide the tools and we provide the labour (often of love). They aren't holding up thier end of the bargain and that's just too bad.
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Post by: Zubbiefish
The reason there is no discourse is because there is only one meta-voice, dakka. GW never talks to us. They never have and they never will. They don't want public discourse. They don't want to explain their reasoning.
Me? If GW posted here and said "it's all about the money. Now deal or flip off." I would give them props for at least being honest.
If they said "look, it's a tension between making a game we like and making money. As a publicly traded company we have alot of voices that we didn't in the early years." I would give them crazy props.
But they don't and won't say that. Because thta may lead to discourse. And discourse is a two way street. GW has shown no interest in that whatsoever.
Don't run down Dakka just because GW doesn't have the cojones to talk WITH us instead of AT us.
And let this be achallenge to GW... Come and talk to us. I for one will be civil. Our mods are great and will handle the trolls. Let us know what you're thinking and why. We will give you our opinions and maybe we can together (designers and players) help create a game that is great to play and profitable for the company.
ender502 QFTBoy I'm agreeable today. 
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Post by: Asmodai
How many companies talk to their fans on boards like this?
Pretty much none. Blizzard doesn't, GW doesn't, WotC does somewhat, but not for anything important.
Places like Dakka are pretty unrepresentative of the hobby as a whole. GW would get more meaningful input by putting consumer reply cards in 1 of 10 boxes and conducting focus groups.
Talking to customers on the internet is much more PR than product research or looking for good ideas.
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Post by: Janthkin
I just know I don't want to be one of the two guys arguing rules in the corner of the gameshop, because that defeats the entire purpose of playing at all. if I wanted useless, mounting stress, I'd go back to work for a couple of hours. While it's important everyone gets a fair shake with the rules, it's equally important to remember why we're playing. Know what? NO ONE wants to do that. But for those of us who do play in tournaments, where we're outside our local group of friends who all play the same way, it is important that the rules are complete. If they'd write a competent ruleset, EVERYONE wins. It's one thing there shouldn't be any difference of opinion on, because there is NO downside to writing rules correctly.
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Post by: Janthkin
Talking to customers on the internet is much more PR than product research or looking for good ideas. Privateer Press does. Blizzard used to, and still does (in a limited sense) when they're testing stuff (oh, wait, GW doesn't test stuff). Actually, quite a few video game developers do, during various beta tests. Dakka may not be a random sampling, but I would disagree that it's not representative. There is a pretty fair cross-section of "for fun" gamers, tournament goers, and modelers. More to the point, most of them are enthusiastic, or would like to be, about playing with toy soldiers. GW has a difficult business niche - they sell a luxury item, and have been doing so long enough that market GROWTH is a serious issue (they've reached most of the interested market, and the majority of their new customers are ones who were previously too young to get involved). Also, their product, by and large, doesn't expire at some time after purchase - there's no predetermined expected lifespan of a plastic miniature. Unlike cars or computers, they can't expect most of their customer base to replace existing products with replacements in a few years' time. So, what can they do? They adjust the rules, to create an artificial lifespan on their products. They create new units, which we haven't already purchased. They resculpt models, to (hopefully) create a better-looking product so that people will replace older models. But here's the big problem: they have a total of TWO potential customer targets: the neophite player (largely too young to have been previously involved in the game, plus a few older people drawn in, often by "friends"), and the veteran player (who has a collection of models already). For the past few years, they have been focusing on the neophite player, who is going to come into the store and buy a large chunk at once, rather than a blister or a single box at a time. Also, they've made a conscious effort to simplify the rules, which lowers one barrier to entry by making the game more accessible to an even younger player (in essence, growing the current market by letting in 3-4 years' worth of new players in a single year). Meanwhile, the veteran player has been feeling somewhat left out. The retail stores aren't especially welcoming. The new rules are simpler than what he's used to, and every time some rules are changed, he loses options he had before (and units that he's already purchased and painted become less useful, or vanish entirely). And what do we get out of Gav? Platitudes. Reminders that he's been around even longer than a lot of older players. Promises of "more ways to play," at the SAME TIME we are getting new rules that offer FEWER ways to play (fewer options, fewer units, fewer armies). So yes, I understand GW's problems. And yes, I truly think that, if given a well-moderated way to interact with them, quite a few posters on Dakka could A) express why they are feeling increasingly alienated by current GW practices; and B) explain what changes would make them feel less alienated. And I fully understand why GW wouldn't want to do such a thing. They would have to admit that, in many cases, they could not act on option B, from a business standpoint. At which point, your alienated veteran becomes and ex-player, as he knows he will never see his concerns addressed. The way it currently is, at least, we can continue hoping for the unlikely, instead of knowing the impossible.
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Post by: Janthkin
Wow. That came off rather more bitter than I had planned.
I still play 40k. I still (mostly) enjoy 40k. I still buy models, at roughly 1 new army/year (curse you, Adepticon). But I don't try to get new people to play anymore; GW has lost my services as a saleman. I cannot advocate getting into an expensive system, when their current approach to the business is not sustainable. And I certainly WON'T advocate a system with such loose rules to my (patent attorney) colleagues - it's maddening how GW plays so fast-and-loose with language.
(To curtail the "how would you do it better then, huh?" crowd: I don't have a perfect fix. One option is to EMBRACE the tournament crowd. Go the Magic: The Gathering route. Setup a competitive tournament circuit, with heavy studio and prize support. Change out your entire model line every X years, and declare old models tournament illegal after they are Y generations old [note that guaranteed churn can lead to cheaper prices, as can regular tournament entry-fee income]. Hobbyists are welcome to continue playing with the old models as long as they want, of course. After every major tournament, FIX any major rules issues that occurred. I didn't say it's the best way, but it is ONE way.)
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Post by: Da Boss
On the one hand, fair play for actually posting, it's something I like to see.
On the other, *fudge* off with yourself and answer some questions instead of gak-ing on and not actually saying anything. Don't pretend like you can actually help improve the hobby for veterans, we know who actually pulls the strings.
Anyway, enough answering a man who won't ever know my answer.
I used to be an enthusiastic salesman too, now I don't do that anymore. Burn out. It's what happens when you ignore your customers for this long.
WoTC are pretty deadly to my mind- a good amount of free online content (even the core rules), decent product support and weekly updates and articles on design etc, as well as a place to go to get official clarrifacation on rules ideas. And they do read the message boards and ask what fans want (they don't always listen but at least they ask).
Whereas GW don't have fora.
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Post by: Pariah Press
Posted By Asmodai on 05/19/2007 8:27 AM
How many companies talk to their fans on boards like this?
Pretty much none. Blizzard doesn't, GW doesn't, WotC does somewhat, but not for anything important.
WotC may not talk to their fans much on message boards, but they have other avenues of communication. I can send Mark Rosenberg (the design lead for Magic the Gathering) an email, and his will read it. And, assuming that the question is interesting enough, he will respond, or write one of his weekly columns about it. The man had BIG IDEAS about game design, far more well-developed than anything I've seen written by the likes of the GW crew (much as I love most of them). Mark appears to be completely candid about why such-and-such a card or expansion shafted a certain player demographic, but what the reasoning behind it was, and how it benefits to game overall, and which demographic benefits. I see no evidence that the GW designers even THINK about this stuff, let alone communicate it to US.
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Post by: dienekes96
Posted By ancientsociety on 05/19/2007 6:08 AM It's funny dienekes, you keep harping on about how there's "no content/logic/dialogue" on Dakka. Well, I haven't heard you astound us with your amazing logic and discourse, so please enlighten us plebs, with something other than "Dakka/this thread/Dakkaites suck because X".
If you can't do that, then you're a) not truly contributing anything yourself, b) wasting our time, and c) making us all wonder why you post to a site you think so little of.....
No, I stated there was NONE in *this thread*. Please quit putting strawman comments in my mouth for you to refute; try to read what I write. It'll make the conversation rise above middle-school discourse.
I haven't astounded anyone at Dakka in some time, because there is no point. But I have been a member for six years, so I feel comfortable posting here. So welcome aboard, ancientsociety. I remember when Slayer Sword/GD winners, tourney champs, and old schoolers posted here all the time. The "Dakka tuffguy" mentality (GW is scared of us!!!) is continually amusing. If you want enlightenment, here it is. GW is a company. They made products to make money. They make decisions with the expectation that these decisions will make them money. They want their fans to buy more product, so they do respond to consumer data, none of which can be obtained with any usability from message boards. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over (whining about Dakka like they are a person [not a COMPANY, like Pepsi or Toyota] with a grudge against you), and expecting a different result (they actually listen to a minority of fans because they want some cred with the "cool kids" ). So I have a) contributed, b) valuably used your time (though I expect you'll misread the point in order to belittle me), and c) pointed out why Dakka does have worth to me. There are still good posters (and lots of good potential posters) and points made here.
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Post by: Janthkin
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over (whining about Dakka like they are a person [not a COMPANY, like Pepsi or Toyota] with a grudge against you), and expecting a different result (they actually listen to a minority of fans because they want some cred with the "cool kids" ). Freudian slip of a typo in there - I'm guessing you meant " GW" when you said "Dakka," but there are a lot of whines^h^h^h^h^h^h complaints about Dakka out there, that attribute a single opinion/mentality to every individual poster on the board, as if there is some Dakka hive mind.
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Post by: Da Boss
I admit I also found the "Let them come here and post! I care not if there are 8 million Hojillion Billion of them, this is where we FLAME this is where they GET FRUSTRATED AND IGNORE US!" mentality absurd.
A lot of thought provoking stuff on that thread. Poor old Gav probably doesn'y have much control over the solutions to the problems though. Doesn't mean he's not a patronising muppet at times though.
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Post by: dienekes96
Janth, I did mean GW. And yes, there is plenty of whining about Dakka here as well. But it's probably a fraction of the whining about GW, and still less than the reasonable complaints leveled at GW. It's hardly like I post in every whine thread about Dakka. Some of them are valid, some of them are boring. This one struck a chord. It seemed...personal. So I commented.
The smartest thing said in here is that GW has done nothing with Kill Team since 2005. Kill Team would be a GREAT introductory thing to pursue, allowing for greater modelling opportunities and hooking players (5 models, then 8, then 12 - before moving to standard games). It would help the narrative aspect, the hobby aspect, and certainly the introductory aspect.
But GW has gone the other way, and I can't say I blame them. There is a lot of competition at the skirmish level. But NO ONE can compete with GW on the BIG games, especially after Apocalypse. In short, they are going where there isn't any competition. Only GW can support that level of "mega"-gaming. It's a business decision, to differentiate them from other companies. I still think they should pursue Kill Teams. Marry it to Space Hulk, make it a starter game, and pump it up. Support at skirmish levels, standard levels, and Apoc levels.
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Post by: Acheron
Kill Teams, Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor...these were all great games that should never have been dropped, but instead should have been fostered, built up, and supported. I personally brought five people who would normally *never* touch a miniature game into the hobby via Mordheim. The small scale, affordable nature, and personal touches (customization of your warband) had great appeal to new players not normally familiar with miniature games. Two of those five players also picked up Fantasy armies as a result. But when Mordheim support was dropped, all but one drifted off and never really played mini games again.
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Post by: beef
I agree with dienekes. STOP the whining and speak with your wallets. Dakka is not representitive of the hobby market as the majority of people just come here to complain. the majority of the hobby is not made up of bitter veterans it is in fact made up of 11 -15 year olds who out number us 100-1 and have more buying power than we do.
This is who GW is geared towards now. The reason Gw and alot of other people hardly post on these topics is because the general trend is to complain about GW and anybody who disagrees is outcast and accused of trolling. Then the majority of posters gang up on that person.
Its like being back in school. As long as you stick with what the popular kid/poster is saying you cant go wrong. Disagree and you have had it.
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Post by: ender502
Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 1:29 AM
the majority of the hobby is not made up of bitter veterans it is in fact made up of 11 -15 year olds who out number us 100-1 and have more buying power than we do.
Considering GW's lagging sales I think this statement may be far from the truth. Though, it's not as if GW is acting like it isn't true. I am positive they think it's true. I am positive they have thought it was true for some time now. But it is a strategy that seems not to have been working. As dienekes said..." insanity is...." GW just needs to build a better product. Smart marketing will only take you so far and then you have to rely on the quality of your product. That is what GW is facing and that is why they are losing market share. ender502
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Post by: whitedragon
Actually, when I read the statement from Gav, I don't get disrespectful platitudes at all. It seems to me like he's toeing the party line with regards to their business strategy, only without coming out and saying, this is how we are planning to make our money.
Gav says,
"These days an incredible amount of effort is expended introducing people to the principles of collecting, painting and playing with miniatures. Many of us take for granted what a wealth of knowledge we have accumulated over our years of gaming, and forget how little we knew when we started. Our aim is to remove as many obstacles as possible that stand in the way of people who are going to enjoy collecting, painting and playing with toy solders - what we call the 'hobby gene'.
"
And I agree with him on that point. For what its worth, what he is saying is that GW's strategy is to make it easier to transition into miniature gaming, so that it is then easier/more rewarding to stay in the hobby vs getting instant gratification with a video game.
Especially nowadays with systems costing 250-600 dollars, and games now at 60 dollars! It's even more palatable for parents to get their kids into something constructive (painting, modelling) and social (essentially boardgaming with multiple REAL LIFE opponents) at a "clubhouse" (Games Workshop store) where they no everyone is there for the same thing, and there is some supervision (GW Staff).
The rest of what he is saying is basically that, well, we care about you vets, but we are trying to make our money off new people, that is our business plan right now.
I think that its probably not working out as they had hoped, especially viewing their recent financial situation, but they stuck with a plan and followed through. Now they need to be able to assess what they did wrong, and attempt to fix it.
My personal opinion is that GW should maybe make 2 different games for each of their core rulesets, or at least have a "TOURNAMENT" version of the game with updated FAQ's, balanced Tournament army lists, and a Tournament system for the hardcore players, and a normal version of the game with regular codicies with all the options you are used to.
Then throw in a little more support for skirmish type games like kill team, and really thats all you need to do.
And actually, all of this could probably be handled just through White Dwarf. The game designers and miniature makers could be free to work on the games, and the White Dwarf staff (including maybe a new "white dwarf" game designer or editor or a team) would then be able to add legitimate official content for the "Tournament" version of the games, as well as Kill Team and Skirmish stuff in addition to battle reports, painting master class and terrain masterclass.
I have always found it odd that their magazine is more like a catalogue of their product, yet it only gets distributed and circulated through their own ranks. If they really want WD to be a product catalogue, why not distribute to a larger base of newstands, and get the word out? GW does not advertise at all, why?
Anyway, thats my take on it. Rather long winded.
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Post by: beef
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.
They know what they are doing and catering to the whims of whining "vets" is not a priority. Because once again (I cant stress this enough) no matter what happens these vets still pay and play the game. However some will say "No we dont anymore, we play Hordes or warmachine etc" well good for them. Now all these vets need to do is stop complaining and posting about things that they dont play, or collect or think the rules are crap for anymore.
Go post about hordes etc
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Post by: ancientsociety
Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 1:29 AM
I agree with dienekes. STOP the whining and speak with your wallets. Dakka is not representitive of the hobby market as the majority of people just come here to complain. the majority of the hobby is not made up of bitter veterans it is in fact made up of 11 -15 year olds who out number us 100-1 and have more buying power than we do....
I think it's fairly obvious that veterans HAVE been "speaking with their wallets" and that the new crowd of teens/young adults DON'T have "more buying power", if you look at their quarterly profits for the last few years.
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Post by: Zubbiefish
And I agree with him on that point. For what its worth, what he is saying is that GW's strategy is to make it easier to transition into miniature gaming, so that it is then easier/more rewarding to stay in the hobby vs getting instant gratification with a video game. The thing is though once you've got 'em you need to keep 'em. When the new players become vets then... you go for more new players I guess. I don't know, seems to me you're better off keeping current cutomers happy rather than ignoring them altogether and just concentrate on getting new customers. My personal opinion is that GW should maybe make 2 different games for each of their core rulesets, or at least have a "TOURNAMENT" version of the game with updated FAQ's, balanced Tournament army lists, and a Tournament system for the hardcore players, and a normal version of the game with regular codicies with all the options you are used to. Now this is something I'd like to see. Idealy, if they'd sort of take some of the best ideas I've seen floated then they'd be able to make everyone happy. Something maybe like this: 3 ranges of game play Kill Team, Standard, Appocalypse (this does sound like it will me interesting BTW) Each would have it's own points range and there'd be some tweaks to force org and the like to keep make 'em work. Two levels of game play Standard and Advanced. Standard could be the newer style, fewer option mode of the game and Advanced could be almost another ruleset (based on the skelton of Standard) that has dizzying arrays of options and even more rules to learn. Maybe armour modifiers and psychology that works. You can intoduce new players with some Standard Kill Team stuff and take it from there. I'm willing to be you'd get the majority of the players playing Standard, Standard games. And the complete die hards would play Advanced Apocalypse games... this might take all day. Regardless the combos offer a choice for every type of GW enthusiast. The posibilities would be endless and GW is in a unique position to actually do it. There isn't any other company that could pull it off. They're not big or established enough. This also would have the effect of putting one of thier core games in every range of the mini-games market all by itself and 40K would forever be the be all and end all of Sci-Fi mini games. It would take a ton of work and I don't ever see it happening but my perfect world this would be 40K.
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Post by: Acheron
Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 9:29 AM
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.
They know what they are doing and catering to the whims of whining "vets" is not a priority. Because once again (I cant stress this enough) no matter what happens these vets still pay and play the game. However some will say "No we dont anymore, we play Hordes or warmachine etc" well good for them. Now all these vets need to do is stop complaining and posting about things that they dont play, or collect or think the rules are crap for anymore.
Go post about hordes etc
Just because a company "makes millions" does not mean it's being run well or will do well in the future. That's a very naive view of business. Look at Chrysler. They "made millions" and yet are in the crapper now due to poor management decisions. Poor sales for two or more quarters are a sign that something is not right. Poor sales for a year? That is a very bad sign. That's why the stock price has been getting pummeled. Stock prices don't usually take such a huge beating for no reason. Also I find it interesting that in one post you say that people on Dakka who have a different opinion from the majority are called trolls and ostracized, yet when people disagree with you, you tell them to "stop complaining" and go post somewhere else. Is that not the same thing? People that are unhappy with the direction GW is taking are "complaining" not because they want to see GW beaten down, but rather because they want to see GW return to it's former glory. At least that is true for me. I want to see them put out better rules, better minis, better games. Why? Because I enjoy playing well made games, whatever company it may come from. If they released Mordheim/Inquisitor again (with a few fixes) and pledged to support the game, instead of say LotR, I would be right back playing GW games again. If they tightened up the rules, un-simplified them again, I'd be playing GW games again. My point is, there are a lot of things that GW could do to bring me and several friends back into the GW fold...why is it not valid to discuss these things? It only helps GW and all current GW players. Ultimately of course these are all GW's decisions to make. But I thought that the reason this whole thread on Warseer existed was that Gav was soliciting information from the "veteran community" on what GW could do to improve things. If they choose to ignore what the vet community are saying with a pretty unified voice, then like you said, I'll just go back to playing games that are more fun. It's GW's loss, not mine. But for the moment, while they are possibly listening, it's worth discussing what could be changed for the better.
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Post by: beef
Posted By Acheron on 05/20/2007 2:22 PM
Also I find it interesting that in one post you say that people on Dakka who have a different opinion from the majority are called trolls and ostracized, yet when people disagree with you, you tell them to "stop complaining" and go post somewhere else. Is that not the same thing?
BEEF REPLY Well cos All I am saying is stop complaining and if they are playing different games to 40K then post about those instead of complaining about games they no longer play.
. My point is, there are a lot of things that GW could do to bring me and several friends back into the GW fold...why is it not valid to discuss these things? It only helps GW and all current GW players.
BEEF REPLY Valid point but there is a difference between discussing it and complaining and whining. these threads always turn into a complain fest. .
Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations?? Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360 and now PS3?
Sales will drop and then rise again. But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect. It cant realyy expand anymore than it has. for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 3:19 PM Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations?? Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360 and now PS3? Sales will drop and then rise again. But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect. It cant realyy expand anymore than it has. for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come.
Bull. The PS3 and XBOX360 cost less in constant dollars than the Atari 2600 or NES. That is certainly not the cause. I'm sure MMOs and other external competition may be part of the problem, but mismanagement is likely much more significant. As for the last part, GW has stated they keep customers for an average of 2 years. After 30 years, that means for every player that comes 15 will leave (there abouts). If GW has 2 million customers currently, that means they probably have 28 million veteran ex-players (not precise since GW used to grow and recently started shrinking) that they've alienated or quit the game for other reasons. That's an market that has already shown interest in the game and product and could be very effectively marketed to.
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Post by: Acheron
Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 3:19 PM Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations?? Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360 and now PS3? Sales will drop and then rise again. But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect. It cant realyy expand anymore than it has. for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come.
But it isn't just a seasonal effect. GW has been suffering losses for the last year (or maybe even two?) now. Also, if the whole mini game industry was suffering losses at an equal % I could understand blaming PS3/Xbox360/Wii. But that hasn't been the case. Instead, it's the other game companies gaining at GW's expense. GW has been hemoraging it's player base into the other game companies like PP, FoW, Infinity, etc. This points to an internal problem either with GW's strategy or it's product (or both). People are choosing the other game systems instead of sticking with GW. The reasons people are guessing are what has already been discussed in this thread and at Warseer, and they echo my thoughts as well. Furthermore, I think that it's a really bad idea for GW to try and compete with video games...they will lose every time simply because video games for kids are in a whole different league from miniature wargames. More availability, can be played alone at home any time the kid wants, more market power, more providers, instant gratification, etc. GW says they are a niche company, yet they try to compete for kid's interest in video games...they can't have it both ways...they can't be niche and mainstream at the same time. I agree that the miniatures hobby game market is pretty saturated now. The best that they can do now is to try and pull people away from other game systems (from PP et al). The way for them to expand as a company now would be to spin off a video game division, which I think is the direction they will head in, what with the new MMOs and RTS games of late that they have licensed their IP to. They could also try to chip into the board game market again and try to go up against the eurogames. The hobby market is really starting to exhibit the Long-tail phenomenon as well, since it is now easy to pick and choose very specific game types to play. People don't have to play the "generalist" and simplified type games that 40k and Fantasy are. They now have a plethora of easy to obtain specialty choices ranging from steampunk, to WW2, to anime, etc. We're now in the Google and Youtube age, where personal choice and expression abound and the power of a single individual's blog can dominate large corporate entities. I think the best thing GW could do would be to tap into people's desire for very specific variety...and the best way to do this would be through their Specialist Games line.
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Post by: carmachu
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking. Its been 6 years, and its been going down. Thats a pretty long time to watch the company sink lower and lower. It better turn around soon, or it WILL go down. Doesn matter if your selling toy soldiers or cars, if you stop paying dividends, no one is going to buy your stock. Basic business. Borrowing twice to pay dividends and then not giving one is NOT an indication of healthy business
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Post by: carmachu
Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations?? Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360 and now PS3?
Sales will drop and then rise again. But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect. It cant realyy expand anymore than it has. for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come. Now your just trolling. Anyone with half a brain can see it is NOT seasonal. They have dropped steadily in the US for 6 years, with a one year bump up in 2004. Its gone down in the EU/ UK area for about a year or two. YEARS of declining sales is NOT a seasonal thing. Go back to school, read their finacial reports and then come back and talk.
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Post by: Ozymandias
What is it that Vet's really want. I've read a lot of different things here. On the one hand, Vets want a set of "tournament" rules. Airtight, not complex, and easy to play with any opponent. On the other hand, vets want more complexity. More rules for skirmish; more rules for large games; more rules for environments; etc... If GW goes down the first path, they are accused of "dumbing down" the game and making the rules too simple and streamlined. If they go down the second path, the rules get more complex, thus easier to find loopholes and inconsistencies. Short of making two rules sets, I find it very difficult for GW to 'win.'
The good news is that I think that is the direction they seem to be heading. JJ seems committed to making the rules clearer and simpler (DA codex). While at the same time they will be releasing/ have released things like Apocalypse and CoD to expand the basic rules (and not suitable for tournament play). Hopefully, 5th ed gets released and cleans up the inconsistensies in 4th, and the rest of the codices follow the DA path and the playing field gets evened out.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Ozymandias on 05/20/2007 7:35 PM
What is it that Vet's really want. I've read a lot of different things here. On the one hand, Vets want a set of "tournament" rules. Airtight, not complex, and easy to play with any opponent. On the other hand, vets want more complexity. More rules for skirmish; more rules for large games; more rules for environments; etc... If GW goes down the first path, they are accused of "dumbing down" the game and making the rules too simple and streamlined. If they go down the second path, the rules get more complex, thus easier to find loopholes and inconsistencies. Short of making two rules sets, I find it very difficult for GW to 'win.'
It didn't work for TSR, but having a 'Basic' and 'Advanced' 40K rulebook might actually be a good idea. DBA/DBM uses this approach - interestingly more players play the simpler version (DBA) in my experience than the more complex. It's certainly doable.
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Post by: Janthkin
What is it that Vet's really want. I've read a lot of different things here. On the one hand, Vets want a set of "tournament" rules. Airtight, not complex, and easy to play with any opponent. On the other hand, vets want more complexity. More rules for skirmish; more rules for large games; more rules for environments; etc... If GW goes down the first path, they are accused of "dumbing down" the game and making the rules too simple and streamlined. If they go down the second path, the rules get more complex, thus easier to find loopholes and inconsistencies. Short of making two rules sets, I find it very difficult for GW to 'win.'
Who asked for "not complex" tournament rules? Airtight, yes. Simple, no. Most loopholes and inconsistencies can be found by proper editing BEFORE publishing. Any others that appear get patched IMMEDIATELY. Other games (skirmish rules, etc.) would be nice, in a "give me more ways and reasons to buy your models, other than just making my existing ones obsolete" way. And yes, they would likely have to be different rules. You know, like Necromunda and Kill Team were different rules.
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Post by: Hellfury
To ignore the Magic the Gathering rules set as a pattern to follow is foolish.
The game is tight. I dont play MTG anymore ( I recently sold off my collection for around $5k) but I have to admit they do right by the game and by the players. its why its so strong and has lasted so long and gained juggernaut like popularity in such a short time. They basically defined a new way to game.
Sure GW makes rules for the models they manufactur, but that doesnt mean that the models stand on their own ground without a solid basis in a solid rules set. I am amazed that GW games have lasted as long as they have. The background is what i think that keeps people buying, because it definatly isnt tight rules.
I love the models, but because of their design, its nearly impossible to use them in other games. Not nearly generic enough. because of that, GW has painted themselves into a corner.
They never saw the popularity of their games to be so huge. And now they have to address that and make a good rules set for their good models.
They are trying, you have to give them credit for the attempt, but its too early to tell if the changes they are employing will result in positive spin, or be the deathknell for their 40K game.
I absolutely hate the new changes, but at the same time, i dont want to see 40K fail anymosre than it already is, so I have to embrace the new changes in hopes that they will culminate in getting 40K out of the proverbial gutter.
I just hope they dont ignore the impact of solid rules for a game. (even though they are doing bass ackwards. You start with the basic rules foundation, and then make specific rules, not make specific rules based on horrible foundation, this is the reason 4th ed should be scrapped and 5th edition implemented as quickly as they can employ three lawyers and three proofreaders to make 5th edition, fire and hire based on merit, not seniority.)
iIts a good thing I enjoy killteam, combat patrol and COD so much, or GW would have nothing to offer me. Its also too bad I basically payed $50 for kill team rules...
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Post by: Pariah Press
Posted By Hellfury on 05/20/2007 10:15 PM
I just hope they dont ignore the impact of solid rules for a game. (even though they are doing bass ackwards. You start with the basic rules foundation, and then make specific rules, not make specific rules based on horrible foundation, this is the reason 4th ed should be scrapped and 5th edition implemented as quickly as they can employ three lawyers and three proofreaders to make 5th edition,
Agreed about the need for a 5th edition post-haste. Not sure about using lawyers as game-designers. They should definitely hire a technical writer of some kind for the later stages of development, though. I'd like to see a lot of the types of rules in the current edition of Epic imported into the 40K game; they add a lot of tactical depth.
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Post by: beef
Posted By carmachu on 05/20/2007 4:18 PM Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations?? Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360 and now PS3?
Sales will drop and then rise again. But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect. It cant realyy expand anymore than it has. for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come. Now your just trolling. Anyone with half a brain can see it is NOT seasonal. They have dropped steadily in the US for 6 years, with a one year bump up in 2004. Its gone down in the EU/ UK area for about a year or two. YEARS of declining sales is NOT a seasonal thing. Go back to school, read their finacial reports and then come back and talk.
How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games.
I am refering to the UK when i say PS3 and Xbox. Most of the kids stopped coming to the local stores when the Xbox360 came out cos they were to busy playing halo2 online. Over here Gw is not losing out to hordes or Rackham or other manufacturers because they are not commercial enough for evrybody to play. Not a lot of stores stock or play those games. So in affect Gw sales have been falling for 1-2 years here in the UK. So ehen I made my earlair statement I was refering to the UK not the US. sorry if that caused confusion
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Post by: dienekes96
Kill Team should be a pamphlet free with a WD. Or even a PDF. Or a $10 rulebook loaded. And they should get the rules right. I honestly think GW is missing the boat with what Kill Team could be.
With the following systems at their disposal:
BFG (revise and release - rules are already fine)
Epic (just support it - ignore the painting aspect, and let folks play it like a boardgame)
Apocalypse
WH40K/Cities of Death
Kill Team/Necromunda (Space Hulk expansion)
Work on getting decent rules for WH40K and KT, tie them together with some basic campaign support, and voila.
You would have a product NO ONE can compete with, combined with pimping Epic and BFG along with your main game sales.
Just a little would go a long way,
Chuck
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Post by: Stu-Rat
Posted By Janthkin on 05/20/2007 9:38 PM
Who asked for "not complex" tournament rules? Airtight, yes. Simple, no. Most loopholes and inconsistencies can be found by proper editing BEFORE publishing. Any others that appear get patched IMMEDIATELY.
Agreed. There's a big difference between complex and complicated. Unfortunately, thanks to the general dumbing down of everything in recent years, most people can't tell the difference.
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Post by: carmachu
How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games. When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall. Your trolling.
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Post by: Acheron
Posted By dienekes96 on 05/21/2007 6:09 AM
Kill Team should be a pamphlet free with a WD. Or even a PDF. Or a $10 rulebook loaded. And they should get the rules right. I honestly think GW is missing the boat with what Kill Team could be.
With the following systems at their disposal:
BFG (revise and release - rules are already fine)
Epic (just support it - ignore the painting aspect, and let folks play it like a boardgame)
Apocalypse
WH40K/Cities of Death
Kill Team/Necromunda (Space Hulk expansion)
Work on getting decent rules for WH40K and KT, tie them together with some basic campaign support, and voila.
You would have a product NO ONE can compete with, combined with pimping Epic and BFG along with your main game sales.
Just a little would go a long way,
Chuck
And don't forget Mordheim. They just need to revise a few broken rules, namely the shooting and the bonus skills relating to such. Also some of the lists released later on in it's life could do with some tweaking, but the core lists are all good. And they would all be only minor changes that could be done in under a month if you put one person working on it part time.
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Post by: gorgon
Posted By Acheron on 05/20/2007 3:40 PM
But it isn't just a seasonal effect. GW has been suffering losses for the last year (or maybe even two?) now. Also, if the whole mini game industry was suffering losses at an equal % I could understand blaming PS3/Xbox360/Wii. But that hasn't been the case. Instead, it's the other game companies gaining at GW's expense. GW has been hemoraging it's player base into the other game companies like PP, FoW, Infinity, etc. This points to an internal problem either with GW's strategy or it's product (or both). People are choosing the other game systems instead of sticking with GW. The reasons people are guessing are what has already been discussed in this thread and at Warseer, and they echo my thoughts as well.
In the larger scheme, the Privateers, Mongooses, etc. are pimples on GW's a$$. The problem isn't that those competitors are stealing small amounts of GW market share. The problem is that GW already dominates its niche. How do you grow a public company 10% every year and keep its shareholders happy when it's already the dominant player in a niche market? Vets definitely buy a lot, but they can only sustain so much. It seems to me they have to start going mainstream to grow its base of new customers. Their real competitors now are the Sonys and Microsofts. And no matter how many mall stores they have...good luck with that. I'm sure going public was a major reason they reached the size they are today. But I wonder if they're the sort of company that should have stayed private in the first place.
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Post by: Frazzled
Should have stayed private. They can never be anything more than a small niche player if they stay with miniatures, and their operating model is not strong enough vs. more mainstream competitors.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I can't in my life imagine GW going mainstream. Tabletop wargaming is too difficult in all sorts of ways. Also their fluff is very niche.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
I don't envy Gav. If I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to deal with disgruntled customers. What is he supposed to say? "You guys have some really good points and I'd really like to enact them. Unfortunately we in the studio can't so much as fart without getting approval from management." I think the point at which things really started to go downhill was when Andy Chambers left/got canned. It seems like he was the last strong voice in the studio to resist having game design dictated by management. There's no way the current design team could have gotten something like the Sisters of Battle codex released. I certainly don't envy the design team. It must be frustrating to not be allowed to do what you think is best for the game. If I were in that position I think I would have given up a long time ago. "What? I have to make a Black Templars codex? Ok. Whatever." Just phone it in and collect your paycheck.
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Post by: Broon
Posted By carmachu on 05/21/2007 7:31 AM How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games. When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall. Your trolling.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous.
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Post by: whitedragon
Posted By Broon on 05/22/2007 5:34 AM Posted By carmachu on 05/21/2007 7:31 AM How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games. When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall. Your trolling.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous.
Flamebait much Broon? Are you honestly going to hold a position pased on Carmachu mispelling "you're"?
As for Beef, as always, he is talking out of his ass. The facts are there on the interweb for everyone to see. To say that Privateer and Mongoose are only effecting the GWUS slump, and that PS3 and Xbox360 are only killing GW in the UK is well... If you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
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Post by: gorgon
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/22/2007 4:32 AM I don't envy Gav. If I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to deal with disgruntled customers. What is he supposed to say? "You guys have some really good points and I'd really like to enact them. Unfortunately we in the studio can't so much as fart without getting approval from management."
A couple thoughts...
Speaking as a creative type, it's pretty rare that the creative types get to determine priorities at a larger company. Those priorities are usually dictated to me. And that's probably how it should be. Someone with more financial knowledge than me *should* be deciding the needs of the company. Doesn't mean there's times when the creatives come up with a good idea and lead the way, mind you. I'm sure there's a lot of nostalgia by Jervis, Rick, etc. for the times when they were a small shop and the design team led the company. Which leads into my next thought. Really, I kinda feel bad for a lot of the folks at GW. Even though we complain a lot about the company on internet forums, there are a lot of people there who do quality work and care about the hobby despite low wages, etc. It's not their fault that the company is being steered in such a difficult direction. The company has quality products, great IP and high margins...you have to think they could be a really nice, profitable private company with some good management and less focus on short-term results.
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Post by: Witterquick
Best suggestion/response so far IMO: bringing back Citadel Journal.
Gav basically says that vets will do what vets will do because they already know what blows their skirt up, so why dedicate energy to them, but instead focus on the people who need to learn what makes a hobby fun (and it is supposed to be fun).
That's why I'm disappointed that Firebase the fan-supported ezine appears to be flagging. Admittedly it is done for free as a labor of love, but that's the sort of fan outlet that could keep the vet's fires stoked.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Bout the only thing I can think of that I'd really "complain" about to a developer would be instances of stupid design.
I'd love to sit down with some beers with the design team and throw stuff out like "Ok, which one of you sat down and looked at the rules for Harlequins and Holofields and said "Yeah, that's OK"?"
You know, stuff like that. That's about the only thing I think I can blame them for. I can't blame them for the state of the Ork codex and the lack of updates, that's managements call to set the release schedule.
Honestly I think the company should go private, it'd be far better for us hobbyists.
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Post by: grimshawl
Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 9:29 AM
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.
I cant speak for anyone else but GWs actions are what convinces me they are run by as you say a bunch of retards who dont know what the hell they are doing. That and the fact that I have met actual people who are retards and do run companies making millions of dollars so I know from personal experience that it isnt mutually exclusive.
It doesnt hurt my assesment that many of the fixes to GWs problems are simple common sense things like not alienating sections of their customer base and providing better product support for their merchandise. Definitely not Rocket Science. Heck Forrest Gump could probably turn GW around if put in charge.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By grimshawl on 05/22/2007 7:31 AM Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 9:29 AM
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.
I cant speak for anyone else but GWs actions are what convinces me they are run by as you say a bunch of retards who dont know what the hell they are doing. That and the fact that I have met actual people who are retards and do run companies making millions of dollars so I know from personal experience that it isnt mutually exclusive.
Forrest Gump made a mint on shrimp didn't he?
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/22/2007 4:32 AM I think the point at which things really started to go downhill was when Andy Chambers left/got canned. It seems like he was the last strong voice in the studio to resist having game design dictated by management. There's no way the current design team could have gotten something like the Sisters of Battle codex released.
Quoted for truthery. Whatever happened to Andy Chambers, it was a bad thiing for us that he is longer with GW. I am thankful that he deigned to make the sisters codex before he left. (even with all of its faults)
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
What happened to him? He went to work for Blizzard and now he's the lead designer on Starcraft 2.
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Post by: Hellfury
No one knows for sure why he left, but shortly after his departure from GW, he designed Mongooses Starship troopers game.
Great game, good rules, horrible models and lack of diversity.
It seems Andy Chambers has gone freelance games designer.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Why do you guys say he got the WH codex released? It wasn't written by him, or do you have some kind of knowledge that shows he pulled levers with management to get the book put out when it otherwise wouldn't have made it?
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Post by: Dice Monkey
Posted By Hellfury on 05/22/2007 11:12 AM
No one knows for sure why he left
Fat Bloke tried to gobble him up after getting his feelings hurt on a certain online forum by a 15 year old.
I stopped listening too and/or careing about anything that a studio person said a long time ago. I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this, it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered Ed Asner.
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Post by: upliftingprimer
i know the only way to settle this grab your torch and pitchforks boys head to england and to that palace with poorly made attempts to make it look "like any other world wide mini game HQ" and if any ones going threw CT look me up and pleaes give me a ride there
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Post by: beef
Posted By whitedragon on 05/22/2007 5:54 AM Posted By Broon on 05/22/2007 5:34 AM Posted By carmachu on 05/21/2007 7:31 AM How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games. When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall. Your trolling.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous.
Flamebait much Broon? Are you honestly going to hold a position pased on Carmachu mispelling "you're"?
As for Beef, as always, he is talking out of his ass. The facts are there on the interweb for everyone to see. To say that Privateer and Mongoose are only effecting the GWUS slump, and that PS3 and Xbox360 are only killing GW in the UK is well... If you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
@whitedragon Did you actually have anything usefull to add to this?? No well apart from being a rude git. Its winging idiots thats killing the hobby not a slump in sales or bad rules. Suck it up its just a games for Gods sake. Unless your life is the game in which case seek help people.
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Post by: Frazzled
Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/22/2007 11:35 AM . I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this, it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered Ed Asner.
IT BURNS! IT BURNS! THE IMAGE INSIDE MY HEAD! MUST GET.>>RUSTY SPOON>>ONLY CHANCE TO>>SAVE LIFE! >>ARGHHH!
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
Posted By jfrazell on 05/23/2007 6:47 AM Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/22/2007 11:35 AM . I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this, it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered Ed Asner.
IT BURNS! IT BURNS! THE IMAGE INSIDE MY HEAD! MUST GET.>>RUSTY SPOON>>ONLY CHANCE TO>>SAVE LIFE! >>ARGHHH!
This. Oh god, I did not need that image in my head, you evil Dice Monkey you! 
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Post by: Saldiven
Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 05/23/2007 10:53 AM Posted By jfrazell on 05/23/2007 6:47 AM Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/22/2007 11:35 AM . I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this, it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered Ed Asner.
IT BURNS! IT BURNS! THE IMAGE INSIDE MY HEAD! MUST GET.>>RUSTY SPOON>>ONLY CHANCE TO>>SAVE LIFE! >>ARGHHH!
This. Oh god, I did not need that image in my head, you evil Dice Monkey you!
Don't worry; Richard Simmons will be there to clean you up.
Sal.
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Post by: beef
Who is Ed Asner?? Excuse my lack of knowledge.
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Post by: carmachu
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous. Right. Dont deal with the actual DATA that shows decline, talk about my spelling. morons.
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Post by: syr8766
Mary Tyler Moore's boss.
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Post by: fellblade
Think: Alf Garnett.
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Post by: beef
He has done everything from starwars to superman. The guys a legend . . Right??
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