I've been away for a while, but it looks like Nids are now both uber popular and uber effective. Am I off base?

Nids are one of the few things my drop pod marines (terminators) have trouble with (or at least the games are generally a coinflip).

Are they the new 'thing'? Should I tool my next army around them being at the top of the food chain?

I'd give Godzilla nids as being about equal footing with mech Eldar, with the head-to-head going to mech Eldar. I'd throw SAFH Marines in there as well (Which if redux ever comes about it will kill that list as far as competing with the other two).

Both lists (Zilla and mech Eldar) give drop pods problems also (I've eaten a drop pod player who then threw a fit and quit the game).

 

Drop pod marines have had their day...I'm sure Nidz will be countered eventually as well.

I put Nid Zilla on top in a 3 game tourney setting. In a 5 game mech Eldar. I would customize for them depending.

Zilla is the reason I went from using Pods to the SAFH Marine style. I had a better time against Mech Eldar as well with the SAFH Marines.

With Pods, I just couldn't stand the whole dependancy on the reserve rolls, I'd either come in way too early, or too late with the units I needed.  That and with lots of Termies as the main thing to take down TMC's, you need as many turns as possible to roll those 6's to pull all them down.

 

 

Pods also depend on a good round of shooting when they come in, and your opponent deploying his army to your advantage. A smart opponent deploys in a corner, protects his fast vehicles, and is able to weather a few rounds of drop pod shooting while  counter shooting and assaulting.

 

 

 

 

I dunno... I see so many ways to counter my own nidzilla list (which I've almost finished selling off to start fantasy... 'zilla and 40k are losing their appeal) I can't imagine them being a top contender, let alone "king". They're so slow. The monsters die so quickly to focused fire or fists. The h2h elements (stealers, raveners, etc) are so tremendously fragile. And gaunts are garbage. I fielded 50 in my nidzilla force (spinegaunts, sometimes with some termagants mixed in) and there are plenty of "stupid gaunt tricks" you can play (holding quarters, blocking charges, denying them synapse so they flee and die in h2h and leave the opponent they locked up vulnerable to shooting at the right time, etc etc). That said, gaunt tricks alone won't win you a game, much less work against a  clever opponent.

 I'm convinced that the reason why godzilla does so well is that, basically, it's different. It's like a warmachine army in 40k. or something . Basically, though, like so many of the 'cheesy top lists',  it ignores or breaks so many 40k conventions that  many opponents lack the lists (and tactics) to deal with it. It's the same as other stupid lists, like "can't kill anything" mech eldar, or the early armored company builds, or the powerful (and underused) 100+ marine word bearers lists. People just have the tools to counter the list, and it borders on the fringes of what the 40k ruleset was even designed to accommodate. It's strange, but it's not unbeatable.

Don't get me wrong, I won plenty with my 'zilla - I just don't think it's an outstandingly versatile or particularly effective list, and I think it's sad that it's probably the best the tyranid codex has to offer. I really think that book was a missed opportunity.

Based on the Chicago GT, I'd agree that Nidzilla is one of the top lists out there. Its not unbeatable (as I hopefully proved) but its ridiculously resilient, hits hard, and is extremely difficult to counter without an OTT SAFH or really, really fast assault army.

In round 4, after three games, the top 5 tables had all the players with scores of 50 or higher. Of those armies, 6 were godzilla nids. Two of the remaining armies were tyranids as well (mine, and a shooty gaunt horde army). The other two were a mech eldar army and a Necron army.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the nids in general are the "list to beat" but I would put the list as follows:

Godzilla Nids
Mech Eldar
Destroyer Necron (maximum #s of destroyers & heavy destroyers)

In the hands of skilled players, those are very tough armies to beat. In the hands of unskilled players, they're still tough armies to beat.

Centurian, out of curiousity, what's your tyranid build? And what more specifically was the gaunt horde?

Nidzilla is very powerful, especially since their very straight forward and thus are easier to optimize (IE no noob is putting grenade launchers on their Hive Tyrant.).   The only solution is massed lascannon firing, good deployment, some counter assault to tie/kill carnifex, and a bit of luck.

Is it just me, or are Zilla nids too vulnerable to Shooty marines to ever really be the top army? Considering the same list (las/plas squads, libbies with terminator command squads, predators, tornados) is also among the best lists to fight both mech Eldar as well as other Marines, the odds of running into one are too great.

Obviously I'm missing something because the nids at the GT apparently did very well. Maybe tournament players are flocking to them because they aren't marines and don't suffer from being stigmatize for min/maxing.

Well, certainly in the Midwest Tyranids are king.

Over the last year I have played Godzilla Nids and little bug horde and I was undefeated with them. I think one of the reasons why is that they play so differently from all of the other lists, that most armies can’t counter them.

The conventional wisdom is to have a good anti-MEQ army, and hope that you do not get a bad match up. But the anti-MEQ builds struggle to deal with the fast moving assault little bug horde, or the cheap but very effective Godzilla list.

I have had some success against them with my footslogging Eldar, (I played in an RTT a few months ago where I played 3 bug players in a row). And I played and lost to Darrian13’s Godzilla list several times, so that I ended up building my army around beating it, and it did well against every other army. But my army has a lot of small arms fire. It lets me clear out all of the little bugs, and then lock the big bugs in assault.

I played Godzilla Nids twice in the gladiator last year with my Word Bearers, and I did well. But I use units like flamers (the demons), and all of my CSMs are armed with bolters so I can move to wherever I want to with my rhinos, and get out an rapid-fire.

So IMO they are tough, but not invincible. You need to have to know some tactics on how to beat them, and you have an army that is well rounded.

Posted By dumbuket on 07/31/2007 7:40 PM
Centurian, out of curiousity, what's your tyranid build? And what more specifically was the gaunt horde?

Check the Army list forum, he posted his army list there before the tourney (I think its still on the first page of the forum).

 

If you take out escalation, like they did for Chicago, zilla is just stupid strong.  The threat of an eventual omega seek and destroy mission was about the only deterrent out there

Depends on how you play the escalation rules. In the midwest, they play that you can come in on the side board edge (Which is RAW). This helps out zilla lists quite a bit.

I've won an omega recon mission with zillas too in a tourney. Granted, the kid didn't play that well.

Yeah I was going to point that out. With the ability to come on via the side board edge, especially in missions like Recon where that table edge is 15" up, it means Dakka Fex's can walk right in and start shooting to anything on that flank or most places but a 12" center of the board style radius. My first game with Necrons against Zilla was in a mission like that and I "learned" about the whole side board edge thing in that game when Dakka fex's walked up into shooting range right on the one flank I thought I was safe on (assuming they can walk on only via the long board edge). It's not pretty.

Nah, Chaos Marines are still the best list (for a while anyway)
I would say Nids are very very strong though, as are several slight variations of Marines and Eldar.

Even with coming in the side edge nids have a serrious problem with escalation. Some good players can mitigate this but it is there. You will end up coming on the table peicemeal against long range heavy weapons. This means an extra turn of getting shot or the entire army hides.

I'd say once real marines and Chaos finish getting nerfed, it'll be:

Top tier
{Nids, Eldar}
Second tier
{Tau, Necrons, IG}
Third tier
{Chaos, Orks}
Eighth tier
{Various marine armies}

Tau seriously just have their way with the nerfed Marine armies (BA, DA, BT) on a level that's ridiculous. Necrons do the same. Eldar and Nids just blow them out of the water.

The current and impending marine nerfs (assuming that marines and the other groups all get the combat squad snipping) make some really funny matchups.

Can you imagine what a speed freaks army would do to the current DA with its 7 heavy weapons, for instance? I don't like to think about it. Ugh.

-------------------------------------------------------

Overall, though, if your goal is to win lots every game you play these days, I'd play Eldar. They've got a rock-paper-scissors solution to Nids (pathfinders) and the invinceofalcons will only get better and better as each army has its heavy weapons stolen from it.

IG would be a good second choice, since no one tools to fight them and you can easily put 200 guys and 20 heavy weapons on the board still.

40k is still a shooting game, it's just that they're taking the guns away from armies one at a time.

Incidentally, Chaos is still the best right now for the next few months.

There's still nothing that reliably wins against Iron Warriors - Eldar are worse at it than they were before due to the reductions in tank popping.

I completely agree with Longshot. One can't really say whether Eldar or Nids is the stronger list because they're both excellent lists and gain an advantage over the other depending on the mission. Mech Eldar with a bike Autarch is a really solid list in escalation, and that's something that cannot be said of Tyranids. Eldar can tool against Tyranids fairly well too, but noone can tool against Falcons. In any case the raw power of the devourer copy paste cannot be underestimated.

Also it's fairly obvious that Iron Warriors is still the best army in the game. That will change of course but it remains to be seen how powerful the new Chaos ends up becoming. One thing I wouldn't be so certain about is the part of Marines being 'nerfed'. As far as I know there hasn't been any solid evidence pointing to a Codex: Space Marines revision anytime soon.

I hope Orks make a strong appearance with their new codex. Kult of Speed used to be really hardcore last edition so who knows what may yet happen.

Isn't Orks being written by Phil Kelly?

Tyranids -> Phil Kelly -> Top Tier
Eldar -> Phil Kelly -> Top Tier
Orks -> Phil Kelly -> ???

The Rise of the Xenos continues ...

- Salvage

God I sit here and pray that the Orks get a Kelly style Codex of brokenness to put us up there with Nids and Eldar.

Therion has it right though, ideas of a C:SM Redux is a long ways away from happening if at all. As such I'd keep them near the top with Eldar and Nids. My own SAFH has kept pace pretty well and I'd like to think that this can continue. Incidentally I tool out more to kill Zilla and Mech Eldar armies more than I do to worry about killing MEQ's, mainly because if I can kill Zilla I can kill MEQ's just fine. I think they're one of the best Meta-Game type things to tool out against since if you can do well against them you can do well against almost anything.

Likewise, we'll see how Chaos does. I think they'll still be a good army and may still be able to deal with Zillas and maybe even Eldar too (9 Oblits for everybody!) . We'll have to see all the specifics when the list comes out though.

Right now I'm going to say Nids, Eldar, and Marines are the "top tier" of 40k, at least after the Chaos dex gets nerfed. Hopefully in January we'll be talking about Orks joining that list, which is about the only thing that'll probably make me want to chill on learning Fantasy and play 40k in a tournament again.

Nids, Falcon Eldar, Mech Tau, and Marines generic are how I would rank them currently. I am still waiting to see if a strong BA list surfaces.

IMO, the ranking would be Nidzillas and Eldar close to one another, with advantage to Nidzilla as they can beat more armies more easily but with mech eldar beating Nidzilla, then the current Chaos, Mech Tau, Trait Marines, Necrons, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Sisters, IG, Black Templars, Orks, Dark Angels, Deamonhunters.

I wouldn't say zillas are the king but they will win tournaments as long as people don't expect them.

Lucky me I never face full blown zillas in tournies here, too high a comp factor. I did face 5 TMC's at my last tourny.

One more thing I've noticed, 'zillas generally do better at lower point limits. The effectiveness of a 2000 'zilla army is less than that of a 1500 point one. This is because at 1500 you can fill up most of your MC slots without too much "filler".

You should see one at 800pts.

Posted By coredump on 08/03/2007 7:48 AM
You should see one at 800pts.

Though you can't have elite fexs at that point, so does that qualify

Posted By coredump on 08/03/2007 7:48 AM
You should see one at 800pts.

800 Points isn't 40K, it's a really big game of Kill Team.

I have a 2000pt Zilla army that has won several RTT's although I run it extremely different than the normal Zilla lists people see. Even against shooty marines, it brings them down with ease. In fact I've taken a break from it to play dark eldar after the last tournament with them where by turn 3 I had opponents walk away from the table. Other opponents simply ran trying to salvage as many points as they can past turn 3.
It simply brings too much firepower to bear for any army to handle. It's pretty simple and straight forward which I think is what makes it so nasty there is no trick so no way to gimp it.
It has no synapse dependancy so targetting synapse is a waste of time. It uses brute force and sheer number of shots to bring down it's enemies so whether it's 10 guys with 3+ armor saves or 30 guys with 6+ armor saves it cuts them to pieces. Anything armor 12 or less it shreds with ease, what ever little armor 13+ is on the table I have just enough Venom cannons, and warp blast to handle.
It's nasty so nasty I've reach the point where I feel bad to even put it on the table. I can't say Dark Eldar is much better. Last tournament with it saw 2 massacres before any modifiers just on straight unit points. One non-massacre against Mech Tau that saw fit to cheat me as I was at the time ignorant to Tau.

Well, I have not lost a game to nids yet. Thou I have not had a chance to play the zilla list. Thou this list would die so fast its not even funny with the sheer amount of AP I put out. Ontop of the body count that the nid player would have to deal with. Thou the main nid armies I have had a tuff time are the swarm. Thou they still die, it just takes a lot of marines to break them down. Int 5 and Str 5 for homies is tuff thing for my marines to handle. Mostly because I have units that require my heavy bolters and bolter to burn down first.

Tarval everybody puts out lots of AP2 and 3 shots at tournaments and I just placed 2nd in the last tournament with this list, and it's my 3rd trophy with them. Like my Eldar friend who said "I have enough AP2 to take out 4 carnifex's a turn." yeah turn 4 I still had 4 out of 5 carnifex's on the table.

The reason it's so hard is if you shoot at the MC's you let the genestealers get on top of you. If you shoot at the genestealers you let the MC's get on top of you. They easily force moral checks, and at -5LD within 18" everyone spends the rest of the game running backwards. Being Nids everything moves up through cover easily so 4 lascannon shots, subtract the misses, and fails to wound, you get maybe 1 wound on a Carnifex after I make my cover saves.

I've fought against every army out there with this list except old 1000 sons, and old Slaanesh.

I played a godzilla list for a while at my LGS, and I retired it. It was defeated exactly once, due to a combination of my opponent failing exactly two armor saves the entire game, dropping his demons exactly where he wanted them all at once, and my complete inability to roll anything above a 2. Almost all of the games were overwhelming wins, with several close ones, and maybe half a dozen ties. I've retired it, and after all the whining I heard about how insanely broken it was to give a carnifex 5 wounds or 2 TL devourers, I'm running a swarm army with no MCs at all.

I sold mine for the same reasons. It was structured so well it ran itself. No fun just beating people down. I rather enjoy the closer fought games were it comes down to a decision or two.

You guys need to find opponents who don't suck, or help them build better army lists.

Plenty of armies out there can challenge Nidzilla.

So what if all your Gen get on me.  You fail to grasp the five man combat squad. yes you will move in and yes you will kill the five men. Now what will you do, your big creatures are all dead and your few remaining squads are out in the open getting ready to see bolter heaven.   All you will ever get from me is five men. If you assault me, five men and then I get to return fire. Swarm armies are the ones that give me a bit of a problem because I have to focus my fire.  Dealing with a bunch of big creature would make it easy. You shoot me, I save 3 plus, I shoot you, you die. Last tourny I faced four big creature, turn two both fex had moved behind terrian so they would not die. The winged Hive tyrant was dead and I still had about 90 percen of my army.  The guy had one Tyrant left walking upbehind a hill as to not draw fire. It had already lost one of the body guards and one other had a wound on it.  BTW, this was the most terrian I had ever played on, thus it was hard to get a shoot off. Winged Tyrant died in hth, baited it, and trapped it, and killed it.

Mind you, I just dont shoot and shoot.  While back I played this list, two zorn, two carni, two tyrants/one flyer, four units of gen, homires and one two units of guants.  I told him I would meet him in the middle. It came down to the the wire with me taking the crushing victory because I controled table quarters. Winged Hive Tyrant and carny and four guants that was it. Thou I did not have much either, that game just rocked out with everything that happened. We both had some really great rolls and bad rolls. He was just uggg on how many marines he had to chop threw. Three plus save, saved the day.

Gen heavy army would not come over the hill because of the heavy bolter he would have to face. He went around the hill and faced the 50 or so bolters on that side instead.  Thou I lost some marines on that side, I was able to widdle him down with ease.

Two tyrants, two carnies, 128 hormies, turn two all the hormies had died, end of the game the hive tyrant winged was able to kill two marines, everything else was dead. 3plus saves keep um coming.

I have faced it all but the zilla list. I just dont see it holding any weight with my army. The other day I faced the Falcon list and it lost badly. Finally able to find somebody that plays that list, thou it was at a RTT.  zoomed up in the falcon and popped out his unit of bashees. That unit thrashed my assault squad with ease, thou the return was not what he was thinking it would be.  I had taken everything off the falcon, you know they are hard to kill. I just did not think they would be that hard to kill! Thou I made a mistake of attacking the reapers. I should of finished off the grounded falcon. The other two had returned behind the trees to find shelter from the heavy weapon. One more hit and they would of died from over kill. 

82 marines, 7 ap heavy weapon, 8 ap  assault weapon. 7 power weapons.   Mind you, there is no Min/Max in this list. It is just a horde SM army that has not lost a game yet.  Not trying to brag or anything because I know a few list that will give it hell. Just saying that if we started out 24 in away, well you are looking at one plus dead monster arleady. let alone what I will do once you advance. If you do get with in assault range. You will find five men standing ready for the charge. Once they are dead, you will then face the fire line again. If not, I might even assault you once your hive tyrants are dead.  I already know your gen are daed from the flamers and such once I jump over to meet you in the middle. IE the new middle because you moved and scuttled, or jumped.

 

My list is 1850 as well. Thou 2k, I have yet to find anything worth getting at that point level.  If anybody lives in Texas DFW are, I would love to face the drop horde IG and or horde IG on foot.  Thou I see the bolter bringing death once again because of the AP 5.  Would not mind facing the the Monster list either. That way I can finish out my list of armies faced.

 

Thou the Lysander army might give me some hell. Thou, I faced two six man units before in a list both on the table at the same time and both died.

Not bragging please, just understand most dont understand the str of this army.

Last guy I faced ask me if I was the guy with the horde SM army. I told him yes and pulled it up on the table. The look was priceless and I do mean priceless. This guy (forgot name sorry) was the best game I have played in awhile. He was just one hell of a guy and really enjoyed the game. Thou we had to reset up two times because the judge did not explain the mission. Then the game ended early because they needed the space for the events to come. So, i moved up and started to fire to find out the game was ending this turn. Well, I kinda did not have  chance to move to the objective, thus giving him enough points to pull it back into a draw.  OH well, 20 man unit left and his champ just entered play. I think I still had around 75 guys.  Thou we really had a great game and I just wanted to say thanks again for that game bud. His BT army was painted well, really frigging nice with all the little xtras that BT has to offer.

 

Best of luck, maybe will be able to test our armies one day. Thou I think this is the last I will see of this army. I have collected and painted everything back to basic standard as when I had it before. Thou I might add to the paint to give it some more flar, it was mostly painted when I started. Thus I stuck with the same type of paint and painted them the same to keep them all in line.

As of now I am working on an IG army and cant wait to get the rest of it. Its going to be more of a tank army. Why you ask, because I am tired of putting 82 to 92 marines on the board. uggg

 

Too long to be a troll. Too irrelevant to be anything else... Time paradox!

No, just telling it how it is. P

 

Fire Line, hth, you name.

Let's get one thing out of the way: Godzilla Nids are a list that is winning a ton of games right now. Lots and lots of people are finding them to be a list that's very easy to win with, and very hard to beat. This is true to the point that some people even consider them unbeatable. No matter how confident in your skills and your list, you're one datapoint. There's tons of datapoints that say Godzilla is an exceptionally strong list.

On to your quote: You start out by saying that all the big creatures are dead. That's a funny place to start. We're talking about 6 models, each with T6, 4W and a 3+ save at the very least. Many will have T7, 5W, etc. etc. You're just gunning these guys down without a problem? How, exactly?



What's the actual list?

Something to consider: A Gunfex typically has 5W and is sitting in cover. Let's assume it's got a 5+ save from that cover. In order to kill that Gunfex, Marines would need 13 Lascannon shots on average. Based on your description, it doesn't sound like you've got 13 Lascannons in our list. It sounds like you've got 7 at most. You're killing a Gunfex every other turn with that volume of fire. You'd kill three in a 6 turn game, if nobody in your list were dying, which they most assuredly are, with S8 Strangler shots falling on them, S10AP2 Vencom Cannon shots, and dozens and dozens of S6 Devourer shots.

Weren't you just saying all the big bugs would be dead? Doesn't sound like it...

My friend wins tournaments regularly with Eldar he's got 3 heavy support units that put out 36 shots of S6 AP2 at 36" that re-roll failed hits, and wounds. Nobody shoots like Eldar and even thats not enough to bring my MC's down. He's the only player who manages to even bring them down as at the last tournament I didn't lose a single Carnifex, or Hive Tyrant the entire game and I fought Death Guard, Bad Moons, and Ultramarines.

Why? they were either too busy shooting at the genestealers, or they tried to shoot the big bugs for a turn or two and then the genestealers hit them. Meanwhile the MC's tore whatever wasn't locked in CC to pieces.

This army has put 3 Trophies on my desk so far, and will continue to do so in the future. I also go to RTT's in several states if I could only stop getting bashed on sportsmanship I'd do better but most people will give you a 1 after they throw their hands up turn 3 and surrender because there is nothing they can do literally. I say your turn, their vehicles are destroyed, and their troops are re-grouping from running away. So we finish up their assault phase, and then it's my turn again.

2 hours for a 2000pt tournament and I wrap up games in 45 minutes or less.

ok ill take that challenge

i know nids are tough and all of that but you ask what can take them down in quick fashion..ok ill take my dark eldar against them any day...
17 dark lances str8 ap2 (4 wytch squads w raider archtye wytch retinue raider 3 ravagers)
3 distengrators str7 ap2 or 9 shots str4 ap3( bye bye gene stealers)
16 str8 ap2 blasters 2 each wycth squad 2 each for the 3 warrior squads

compare a genestealer to a wytch squad
ill take my int 6 versus your 5? ill take my 4+ invo save versus your 5
i hit on 3's ws 4 to your 2
you hit on 4's your rending doesnt affect me in any way in cc its still a 4+ regardless i move as fast if not faster than you

plus i have combat drugs anything from +1 ws, which you hit on 5's, +1 str my personal fav, re roll misses close combat, 12 " charge my second fav, extra attack always good always goes first .....ehh i do anyway most of the time...

even if my wytches are in cc, i still have a lot of moving fire bases to hit your mc's you can only hit so many of them and yet no matter what its still a glance

and i have other things up my sleeves i havent given them all away yet

nids and ig are the 2 i want t play the least but it doesnt phase me i approach them all the same way

Posted By DarkKhabal on 08/24/2007 8:10 PM
ok ill take that challenge


compare a genestealer to a wytch squad
ill take my int 6 versus your 5? ill take my 4+ invo save versus your 5
i hit on 3's ws 4 to your 2
you hit on 4's your rending doesnt affect me in any way in cc its still a 4+ regardless i move as fast if not faster than you

plus i have combat drugs anything from +1 ws, which you hit on 5's,

More proof that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Play it out yourself. Get some models and proxy a Godzilla list. Play both sides.

You've got a lot of Skimmers to find hiding places for. Can you hide all of them? Dakkafexes will make very short work of AV10, Skimmer or not. 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 glances. I don't like your odds there. Ravagers don't fare much better.

By all means, move a Ravager to shoot down a Gunfex. You'll need 13 Dark Lance shots to kill just one. More if it's got upgraded T7. More if it's found better than 5+ cover. All your Ravagers combined have only 9 shots. Once they've shot, now they're taking an S8 Barbed Strangler and 2 shots of S10 Venom Cannon. If you're very lucky you'll only get Shaken.

Honestly, I like the DE's strengths against Godzilla. They have a lot of powerful shooting, and they don't bother to be tough, which is useless against Godzilla firepower and assault. I still don't like their chances.

you went and forgot all the blasters.. thats 16 more shots you neglected
and out of 9 ships how many can you shoot a round

im not saying its the answe to everythingr but ill take my chances over any other army out there

and after the gene stealers are gone what else do you have?

and to answer your question if the table is set to standard with terrain i can hide most anything until im moving and shooting

ill take my glances... you only can hit 3 at a time if you hit at all

"""By all means, move a Ravager to shoot down a Gunfex. You'll need 13 Dark Lance shots to kill just one. """

what? you are so over stating your chances there. And i dont have to kill it when its swarmed in cc it wont be shooting at anything and since ill be wounding you on 2's with the succubus i like my odds a lot better dont you think ?

Look for you tomorrow night and will talk some more. Well, fyi you dont have to kill a gun fex with shooting. I dropped them in hth as well. Power fist over a gun fex any day.  I will go into more detail tomorrow night.

Posted By DarkKhabal on 08/24/2007 9:05 PM

what? you are so over stating your chances there. And i dont have to kill it when its swarmed in cc it wont be shooting at anything and since ill be wounding you on 2's with the succubus i like my odds a lot better dont you think ?

I like where you are trying to go, but you are wrong in a lot of your examples. Yes, dark eldar can have a reasonable chance to kill a Godzilla list. They might be a rock to their scissors.

Before the 4th edition Eldar codex came out, Ulthwe with a massive seer council was dominating tournaments.  What was their scissors? Demonhunters! But they are so rare, and after a game or two at tournaments, they where often heading in opposite directions. So just because a rare army can do well against them, does not mean that they are not one of the top lists.

And you are wrong about some of your ideas. Just the stats alone are not close to being right.

Wyches vs genestealers is a pretty even fight, so it would depend on who got the charge. (The wyches have WS+combat drugs vs. Genestealers strength+toughness)


But the answer to wyches is not genestealers, but the big bugs. The halving of the weapon skill does not count against strength 6, and the wyches will have all kinds of trouble against T6. All you need is to get a big bug of two into assault, and all they have to do is do one more wound than the succubus (which does 1 wound on average with an agonizer), and the wyches will run for their lives. It looks like you are thinking about using poison blades which is a huge mistake because the TMC still get a 3+ save. That means that there is a good chance you will be beaten in combat, and break.

And you neglect their 12" range.

I'm not trying to tell you how the whole game plays out. I'm just showing you that it's not all about your Ravagers killing everything, and your Wyches parading around laughing. You're talking about going against a list that will kill any of your Skimmers as soon as they see it, very consistenly.

Maybe you'll get some Blaster shots. I promise, though, a lot of those models will be dead before they get within 12" of something. You don't get to just start rolling wounds with all your weapons turn 1, and assault at the same time, while the bugs sit there and feel confused. You have to get where you can use them. It'll be very hard for you to do that without losing a lot of your firepower in the process. Every dead Raider is a Dark Lance lost. Every dead Ravager is 3. It's a LOT easier for the big bugs to kill your Skimmers than it is for your skimmers to kill the big bugs.

You're confident about hiding your ships in cover. I don't know about all that. You're gonna hide 7 ships on a standard table? You're aware that a Carnifex can move and shoot all its weapons?



Depends how many can be seen. It's quite possible to kill 6 per turn, but that depends on them being visible.

A Dakkafex will kill both Raiders and Ravagers with very good consistency. One turn of shooting and the Skimmer will almost certainly not be shooting, and will very likely be destroyed.



I don't think you understand that there's actual math behind what I'm telling you. I'm not sure what this quote is based on, but it's not probabilities or knowledge of the Godzilla lists.

A typical Godzilla list might have 6 Carnifexes in 1500 points. 3 Gunfexes with Barbed Strangler and Venom Cannon, and 3 Dakkafexes with two twin-linked Devourers. I don't even know how many points you're talking about.

The Gunfexes have range equal to your Dark Lances, and will win a one on one shootout with a Ravager every time, especially if they're in cover.

The Dakkafexes have 8 shots at S6, twin-linked BS3. As I already covered, 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 glances on a Raider. Two on a Ravager. The Raider is destroyed 70% of the time. The other 30% it might just sit there and get shot again, and it's definitely not shooting next turn, if it even has a weapon left.



No, I'm not. It's simple math. I'm not just pulling 13 out of thin air cause I like the number. There's ways to calculate the average.

One Dark Lance shot at BS4: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 2/3 defeat a 5+ cover save = .37 wounds. A Gunfex typically has 5 wounds. 5 / .37 = 13.51. So, technically you'd need 14 shots, but I rounded down to 13. As it turns out, I'm not overstating, I was in fact understating.

That's the average. You MIGHT kill the Carnifex in 5 shots. You might also fail to kill it with 50 shots.



You'll probably get into CC with a Fex, sure. You'll probably get into CC with more than one. But your other squads will be shot down. Even if they're not, you have 4 Wych squads, there's 6 Fexes. There's also 20 Stealers and a Flyrant. Somehow your plan involves assaulting 6 Carnifexes, 2 squads of Stealers and a Tyrant, all with 4 squads of Wyches. How do you think that's going to work?

If you're wounding on 2's I'm assuming you're taking Poisoned Blades. To put this in perspective for you once again: Even on the charge, your Succubus will cause .74 wounds on average, not including combat drugs. Only 2 of the 6 results on the drugs chart will improve that. Sure, your Wyches will have excellent staying power against the Carnifex, and will eventually beat it. What happens when they get counter charged by Stealers and Flyrant? What happens when the Tyranid player lets you have the Carnifex, moves back a ways, then blows your Wyches off the table when you're done with combat?

Not to mention, these Dakkafexes, the ones who are 70% likely to destroy your Raiders with a single round of shooting, the only ones you'll get close enough to assault, they're 114 points. You're going to use a Raider and a squad of Wyches to kill one? The minimum cost for that, based on your descriptions to this point, is 203 points. Neat trade.



Absolutely. How are you going to get there? Gunfexes are in the back row, in cover. There's Genestealers and a Flyrant out there just waiting to countercharge you. Get Marines into CC with a Gunfex, wonderful. You'll do a wound or two. Then the Genestealers will hit you, and your entire squad will be gone. 250 points worth of Assault Marines to take two wounds off a Gunfex.

I played a ravager/raider heavy army at the LVGT, and I think that it would have a good chance to beat a godzillla list with it.

The Dark Eldar are just so mobile, that they can fly rings around the Dakkafexes. Dakkafexes have an effective range of 18"+6", so they be out ranged. Godzilla nids are a rather slow army, and a good Dark Eldar player can use it to their advantage. Especially if you have your gunfexes camped in terrain, you can move out of their 36" range, and pound the dakkafexes.

I am not saying that Dark Eldar would win, but it will be a close fight.

Personally I'm agreeing that dark eldar are pretty good against zilla, but not necessarily agreeing with the guy that's promoting this point (I agree with blackmoor though).

There are good reasons why dark eldar will do well against zilla, pity so few players play dark eldar, thus making zilla a good tournament army.

Dark eldar with night shields on everything is basically immune to Nidzilla.

I read over the zilla post about cost and math and everything. I guess you forgot that I run combat squads in my army.  My highest costing unit is my assault squads coming in at 140 points. These units are set for counter charge and to remove threats if needed.

If you dont wall up, my heavy bolter are gonig to burn your gen down. If you hide them behind hills and what not, you are only going to allow me to pick you apart. You only have so much range, and once you change that. You are going to face a new set of my range. Each time you adjust, you will face a new set that my army has to offer.  Hell, I just might meet you in the middle just to see how well this army could hold off 82 to 87 marines.

Core rule is five men, you will only ever get to target, assault five men. After that, you will need to think which way you wish to move because that is all you will be doing. After that, I will return fire with what is needed to remove the new threat, and or assault if needed.

The last game I played had about 80 if not 90 percent terrian. That was one hell of a hard game to play, being that the los was almost nill. Two ranged carnies down to one wound each, and the walking tyrant minus one half body guard.  The flying Tyrant died in one round of hth, I baited it forward with my lascannon unit ( vet unit move up some to close the gap for the lascannon unit. I guess he saw a chance to move up and finish a unit and then assault another.  That flyer wiped the five men with ease, thus allowing him to make a follow up move into my vets. Vet squad and assault squad and power weapon chaplin finished him all the while taking a 32 gaunt charge. I lost two more vets from the guants but hell, they are gaunts. He needed something to try to stop what was going to take place. The  Hive Tyrant  was looking into the EYES OF DEATH.   Had we of went to a fourth turn, that unit of guants would of been dead and I would backed up some. The tyrant walker would of been dead on the hill.

 

Well lets keep talking kk. will see how this goes. Cant wait to face this army.

 

Eldar falcon heavy army died very fast.

 

I read over the zilla post about cost and math and everything. I guess you forgot that I run combat squads in my army.  My highest costing unit is my assault squads coming in at 140 points. These units are set for counter charge and to remove threats if needed.

If you dont wall up, my heavy bolter are gonig to burn your gen down. If you hide them behind hills and what not, you are only going to allow me to pick you apart. You only have so much range, and once you change that. You are going to face a new set of my range. Each time you adjust, you will face a new set that my army has to offer.  Hell, I just might meet you in the middle just to see how well this army could hold off 82 to 87 marines.

Core rule is five men, you will only ever get to target, assault five men. After that, you will need to think which way you wish to move because that is all you will be doing. After that, I will return fire with what is needed to remove the new threat, and or assault if needed.

The last game I played had about 80 if not 90 percent terrian. That was one hell of a hard game to play, being that the los was almost nill. Two ranged carnies down to one wound each, and the walking tyrant minus one half body guard.  The flying Tyrant died in one round of hth, I baited it forward with my lascannon unit ( vet unit move up some to close the gap for the lascannon unit. I guess he saw a chance to move up and finish a unit and then assault another.  That flyer wiped the five men with ease, thus allowing him to make a follow up move into my vets. Vet squad and assault squad and power weapon chaplin finished him all the while taking a 32 gaunt charge. I lost two more vets from the guants but hell, they are gaunts. He needed something to try to stop what was going to take place. The  Hive Tyrant  was looking into the EYES OF DEATH.   Had we of went to a fourth turn, that unit of guants would of been dead and I would backed up some. The tyrant walker would of been dead on the hill.

 

Well lets keep talking kk. will see how this goes. Cant wait to face this army.

 

Eldar falcon heavy army died very fast.

 

Tarval,

I live in Houston, and if you're in town anytime soon I'd be happy to play my zilla nids against your marine horde. I also run a marine horde with 81 models at 1750pts, so I'm well aware of what you could field.

Horde marines are a great army, and one of the toughest, but they are by no means superior to zilla nids. I'd rank them, drop pod marines, 3 falcon eldar, and web way portal dark eldar as the toughest lists. I've left chaos off due to the fact that they are changing and I'm not sure there is enough data to conclude whether or not they can hang with the previously mentioned lists.

I'd be willing to drive up to the north side for a game. Probably won't make it to the DFW area anytime soon, but if you're in town we should get in a game here.

Daydream

Posted By Tarval on 08/23/2007 8:27 PM
I have faced it all but the zilla list. I just dont see it holding any weight with my army.

You really need to play the army to have any idea of how it plays. The Godzilla list is not an assault army, it is a shooting army.

82 marines, 7 ap heavy weapon, 8 ap  assault weapon. 7 power weapons.   Mind you, there is no Min/Max in this list. It is just a horde SM army that has not lost a game yet. 

#1. I wish you were in So Cal. You would not believe how many people I have beat who have said that they have never lost a game.

#2. Since you have a static foot slogging marine horde, what do you do for any mission that required you to move somewhere?

To Blackmoor

1# Day will come....Will be a good one.

#2. Since you have a static foot slogging marine horde, what do you do for any mission that required you to move somewhere?

Walk, Last game I played was getting to the other side. The Edlar player reached over and shock my hand before the game started. I looked at him and asked why, said he would be unable to hold back my army.  We played and I scored 3k plus points on that mission.  The plus is what I killed, 3k was for being on his side.

To Phryxis

Why would anyone with any clue at all give Genestealers for you to shoot H Bolters at? There're few faster ways to give up points.  Answer, About five post back the guy was talking about math and saves and everything else. I was just saying if you wall up, you are not going to be in cover like he was saying he would be. If you dont wall up, you better hide the gen or watched them fry via Heavy Bolter action.  If you dont wall up, your going to be sitting ducks in other ways is all. Not every board is going to have cover save city on it is all. Guy was just using math to show that it would take 14 lascannon shoots to drop one bug via cover save city.  I was just saying if he is going to do that, then what about his little bugs, cant hide that many behind one bug from multi lanes of fire.

Dakkafex 3, Gunfex 3, 2 tyrants. gen.

Godzilla isn't an assault list, it's a shooting list. It has assault units, but they're mostly there to counterassault, and to go after enemy shooting units if there's nothing to counterassault.  Update, I know its a shooting list and mine is to.  I have the same key core rule with my army. You have a five wound monster, I have a five wound squad. I have lots of five wound squads, around 16 of them. You on the other hand dont have 16 monsters. How many five wound monster do you have in 1850. btw, I still have 16 units in 1500 as well.  That is a lot of planking you are going to have to do in order to dimish my list.

I should also point out how misplaced your confidence is regarding being able to give up a squad as a speedbump, then shoot the enemy unit after it wins assault. Update, I moved my lascannon unit up and my vet unit up so that if things worked out. That he would see that I misplaced them, this would give him a chance to clean one unit and assault the other unit. He ran with the bait, and found that my vet unit and assault squad and chapling was more then enough to drop him. There was no speed bump in that action, it was sac to bring to beast to my trap. It died in hth,,,,, My shooting did no fail me either, as you have read my post about two carnies both down to one wound each. The hive tyrant walking was at minus body guard half hiding behind a hill. The other two carnies also moved behind hills. Does this sound like a bug player with 90 percent of the board at level 2 or 3. ....Ever played a game of chess? I have used tactics many many times that way. To set up a multi death loop for the other guy only to castle and then check his king. Thinking three or four moves ahead helps.

You sure you got over 18" away?  Update,  You could call my army a Godzilla SM army. Maybe that would help you understand some of the tactics of this list. Granted I have a ton of marines, its still a five wound unit/model. If you got your d6 and all your move, reassault would net you another five wounds. What are you going to do after that, d6 and hope you reach something(placement keeps this from happening, I would not assault a Godzilla list until I needed to or wanted to). Next would be a nice round of fire for the unit that just finished assault.

Moving units, I move when I need to or want to. My long range has 36" to 48" range.

I don't need to make crap up about how the bugs are doing fifty things per turn to win. Update, Sounds like you just noted your tactic. Simple move shoot move shoot counter assault?

Hell, AC was a really tuff army to beat because of the way my army is set up.  Both time I was able to pull out the win. Once I got into his ranks thou, it was all down hill for the tanks.  Falcon heavy list is just to small of an army to face mine. I have to many units for it to try and tackle. If he is shooting at me, I am shooting back.

I have heard and have thought about this list a few times.  I am just saying this list only has so much to offer. Moving six inches a turn, and some ap and pie plates.  Take away your ap and your stealers, what then do you have.  Monsters that allow me to have a save in shooting. At that point I will be more than happy to swamp him with a horde of marines.

I did mention about my list, in a few post back.

I do enjoy the chat as well. Your list has lost some games, mine on the other hand has not lost.

Thou I do enjoy this because it make me think that if I do find a good general. Then this will be the game that we all live for. That game that one person will find defeat and one will find Victory. That we will both go home happy as hell and wanting to play it again and again because it was the game that we as 40k players live for.

 

This will do for now. I hope I do find a Zilla list player in DFW, Texas area. Then maybe we can get this show on the road. Hell, even then I just might assault all the way...

 

Why are you even trying to argue with this guy.

He obviously isn't interested in listening to the overwhelming amount of empirical and statistical evidence, (both mathematical statistics, and number of tournament wins) or the massive number of first hand accounts of the lists power. Banging your head repeatedly against a brick wall is never advised.

If he still wants to play like its 3rd Edition (and actually think he is going to do well) I say let him. Free massacres at an RTT are always welcome.

Yeah, that was me.



There're two types of Carnifexes here. One is the Gunfex, who sits in cover and blasts stuff at range. The other is the Dakkafex which sets up about 18" away. When people are talking about using MCs as a screen, it's the Dakkafexes they're talking about. One or two can easily screen a squad of Genestealers. You're correct that these Dakkafexes are not likely to be in cover, although they may be if there's some in the middle of the table.

If they're not in cover, it's not not a big deal. They're still going to take a ton of shooting to kill. A 4W Dakkafex, out of cover, still will take 7-8 Lascannon shots to bring down. And there's three of them. And because they're shooting each turn, they're making it easy for the Tyranid player to measure and to know just how far away he is, so he knows when to move them aside and let the Genestealers pop out and charge your lines.

And that's just one way to use Genestealers. They can also go up a flank on their own, or lurk and wait for counter assault, etc. At no point are they going to be wandering around in front of H Bolters.

The fact that you're even mentioning how easy H Bolters kill Genestealers suggests that you're used to playing very poor players. You don't see me bragging on how great a Barbed Strangler is against Marines that bunch up in tight groups, do you? I'm assuming you're not dumb enough to do that when there's 3 Barbed Stranglers on the other side of the table.



Yet AGAIN I would like to see the list. Not just "it's got 80 Marines and it's super awesome." Let's see the actual list. One thing that I'm interested in understanding is how you're fielding 16 units when the force org chart only has 17 slots in it.

Here, this is a list:

HQ - Flyrant - 2x Scything Talons, Winged, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands (+I), Flesh Hooks : 162 pts

Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts

Troops - 10x Genestealers - Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks : 250 pts
Troops - 10x Genestealers - Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks : 250 pts

HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Flesh Hooks : 164 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Flesh Hooks : 164 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Flesh Hooks : 164 pts

27 models, 1496 points

That's a list. Please post yours for 1500 points.




No, Godzilla doesn't. It has more like 6-7.

So?

Do your Marines have T6 or 7? Do they retain their full offensive capabilities as they lose wounds? No, they don't.

The big bugs are harder to wound, and they fire at full capacity until they're destroyed. A Dakkafex will outshoot a Marine squad of equal points value every time, even if it has to go get them. It will also be forcing Torrents of Fire saves on the heavy weapons pretty quickly as well, increasing the odds of the Marines losing all their useful firepower.

All that aside, you're talking about your entire army against part of the Godzilla army. 16 squads against 7 MCs. There are still 500 points of Genestealers out there. Or 60 Gaunts. Or whatever. But you're talking about your full list against two thirds of the Godzilla list as if it's suprising you'd have an edge there. Yeah, with 50% more points, I bet you could beat Godzilla. So?



You're missing the point.

First off, if the Genestealers are killing two squads of Marines in assault, they're making up their points right there. Two 5 man squads with upgrades, and they've pretty much paid for themselves. Any more is just bonus.

But that's not all. If you're moving models to avoid getting caught, those models aren't shooting. Can't move and shoot heavy weapons, and only heavy weapons are worth anything against the big bugs. If you're not shooting, but instead running away from combat, how are you winning the shootout with the big bugs? It's not like you were at any sort of advantage in that shootout in the first place. Now you're not even shooting? You're going to lose.



You're not getting it. High AP weapons are wonderful, but so are weapons that wound so much that it doesn't matter what their AP is. A Dakkafex is a great example. Not only does a Dakkafex not care if you're in cover, it also makes full use of the Torrents of Fire rule.



Dude, my list? Your list? What's my list? What's your list?

I'm more a Marine player than I am a Tyranid player. I have multiple Marine armies, and I've played infantry heavy shooty Marines more than any other list. This isn't about me against you. You may have one pet army that you root for, but I don't. I've got so many different armies, I don't have any loyalty to any one of them. I've got shooty Marines, Blood Angels, Orks, Tau, mech Eldar, Necrons, Sisters and now a Godzilla list. And I've got a half dozen other smaller armies I don't even play...

I have no loyalty to the Godzilla list. It's just a list (or perhaps THE list) that's very dominant in the top levels of play right now. Yes, I'm sure it's lost games. Michael Jordan also lost games. The fact that you're basing all your judgements on the last two or three games you've played is not a good indicator of your ability to see the big picture.

Two games, three games, ten games... Means nothing. My Necron army never lost a game. I eventually stopped playing it. It wasn't even that great of a list, and I wasn't even that great of a player. It means nothing in the big picture. It doesn't mean Necrons are the best. It doesn't mean my list is the best. It doesn't mean I'm the best. It just means that for a fairly long while I happened to be playing people that weren't good enough to beat me. So? It means nothing.

What does matter is that some of the most serious players are building the most serious lists, going to tournaments, and not being able to beat Godzilla lists.

I would go with:


HQ - Flyrant - 2x Devourers, Winged, Toxin Sacs (+1 St), Enhances Senses (+1 BS), Warp Field: 196 pts
HQ - Flyrant - Devourers, Venom Cannon, Toxin Sacs (+1 St), Enhances Senses (+1 BS), 149 pts

Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses: 113 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses: 113 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses: 113 pts

Troops - 7x Genestealers - Extended Carapace: 140 pts
Troops - 6x Genestealers - Extended Carapace: 120 pts
Troops - 7 Genestealers - 112 pts

HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses: 148 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses: 148 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses: 148 pts

What I was giving Tarval was what I think most epitomizes the Godzilla list. If I had all the Gaunts painted, this is what I'd use:

HQ - Flyrant - 2x Scything Talons, Winged, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands (+I), Flesh Hooks : 162 pts

Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts

Troops - 20x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 120 pts
Troops - 20x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 120 pts
Troops - 20x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 120 pts
Troops - 19x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 114 pts


HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin : 163 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin : 163 pts
HS - 3x Zoanthrope - Warp Blast, Synapse Creature : 195 pts

88 models, 1499 points

That almost looks like Darrian13's list.

If it was a higher point RTT I would throw in some gaunts and some zoanthropes, but at 1500 I would keep is simple and stick to genestealers so you don't have to worry about synapse.

You can easily get 8 MCs into 1500 points, and still get 22 vanilla stealers.
2 x tyrants, 1 winged, 1 with guard, both devourers
3 x dakkafex
3 x sniperfex
22 vanilla stealers.

34 T6 wounds.

Until Tarval goes and actually plays NidZilla in a competitive tourney environment he's not going to get it. If you look at the threads from 2005 when NidZilla first appeared, everybody said the exact same things as him. Nobody does nowadays.

The highest number of MCs I've lost in a tourney game was 4. That was against lascannon'd up the wazoo imperial guard. I still had 4 left, and he ran out of lascannons That's typical NidZilla. You have to beat them on mobility and objectives. Not even tau or imperial guard can just shoot them down. I've lost enough tourney games, but it hasn't been by them killing all my MCs - all they need to do is roll recon-escalation for that round and they've a damn good shot at it

Posted By quozl on 08/27/2007 2:12 AM
I've lost enough tourney games, but it hasn't been by them killing all my MCs - all they need to do is roll recon-escalation for that round and they've a damn good shot at it

I must say the only time I've faced close to a zilla list was one with 2 gun fex, 2 dakka fex, and a dakka tyrant. It was 1750 though. I won by massacre.

BUT

Here's the big but...

It was gamma recon and I was mech Tau.

The massacre has distorted my view on zilla, but I am one to accept statistics, and even more so, empirical evidence. I agree that zilla is top tier. But it's not tier 1 in my opinion because of recon and escalation. Am I wrong?

I dunno. Recon and escalation is a complete bastard for NidZilla, unlike say for Mech Eldar, or Mech Tau, who can still get across the board in 2 turns if they need to.

Weirdly enough, I won my recon-escalation game yesterday, as I was lucky enough to get marines. There's a lot of marines out there, and I was able to win it just by wiping him out as he tried to get past me

If it was mech eldar, then tbh, it's good game, thanks for playing. So you need that bit of luck in who you play when a nightmare mission like recon-escalation comes up.

So I'd say it's easier for NidZilla to get messed over by the mission level/type than say for mech eldar. Mech Eldar are THE top army far as I'm concerned.

As an aside, a list with 4 MCs really doesn't resemble NidZilla at all. The key strength of NidZilla is 30 odd MC wounds, and making half your opponents weapons useless. 4 MCs doesn't do that. Every weapon you have will have something to shoot at that it can work well on, and most armies have enough heavy weapons to blow away a couple of MCs anyway. So I wouldn't base your idea of NidZilla on a 4MC army - I think NidZilla really is 7 MCs and 3 Zoans (also require the heavy weaponry to take out) or 8 MCs. Those lists basically make bolters, heavy bolters, gauss blasters, etc really ineffective.

Why is mech eldar so rough on nidzilla? It seems like most falcons take the twin shuricannons, which is alot of S6, but you get saves. And that many guns should keep falcs stunned. Flyrants can get to the rear to trap cargo/blow them up in HTH. Gaunts and Stealers would get mauled, but meh....

You can't stun falcons, you can only shake them. They have an equivalent of extra armour - Spirit stones i think it's called. You can never stop their skimmers moving short of an immobilise or destroyed on the glance table. Which is a 1/9 roll on the glance table with holofield falcons! You have to get the glance before you even get that 1/9 shot and they out-range devourers.

Harlequins are I7 and rend. That's anathema to NidZilla. Stealers even get owned by them if quins get the charge - so you HAVE to prevent that. Firedragons in falcons also wipe out a MC in one turn, though that's not that bad as they should just die afterwards. As long as you haven't messed up and spread out too much.

It's also assuming he hasn't also unloaded another unit of firedragons from a 2nd falcon, 2 units of blade-storming dire-avengers from 2 wave serpents,  mind-warred another MC with eldrad, and shot whichever of the skimmers aren't shaken at nearby stealers/MCs. I do not exagerate here, I've had that done to me. 3 MCs dead in a turn, and their stealer support wiped out almost to a man. That was the one time I was dumb enough to split into two 4 MC wedges against highly mech Eldar I'd figured it'd make it harder for his skimmers to out-range my devourers. It just got me amusingly owned

I don't think Mech Eldar is death to on NidZilla or anything though,  I have a very good record against it. If you mess up though, you're dead really fast. Plus you've then got no chance to catch them to try and even things out...

I do think Mech Eldar is the best tourney list because no random chance in mission selection messes them about. They'll do fine in escalation recon. Even escalation take and hold or secure and control can be tough for NidZilla if you get unlucky with reserve rolls. I've had to wait for multiple MCs to auto come on in turn 5 in tourneys before. They won't make it near an objective, that's really frustrating. I've even considered taking a couple of lictors to give escalation re-rolls, but that'd be one less MC, lictors kind of suck, and there's never much area terrain at tourneys for them to deep-strike into.

You hit on 6's in CC and you can only glance. A fully close combat orientated Flyrant will achieve slightly over half a glancing hit. If you know anything about holo-fields you know you need a little more than one glancing hit to down a Falcon.

I've been thinking about that and although it's a complete coinflip against LD10 (even when using Mind War twice in the same turn) Eldrad can't do much else against Nids the turn he disembarks from his Falcon.

That's why I like Eldar so much. There aren't a lot of missions or terrain set-ups that can screw them up. I actually prefer escalation to normal games because it doesn't allow the opponent to take any free shots at Falcons before they move. If terrain is scarce and you're playing a gamma level mission, Eldrad's re-deployment ability really helps. Deploy your Falcons to the middle of your deployment zone, watch your enemy deploy his army accordingly, and re-deploy the Falcons far into one corner. You'll still be able to perform a turn 3 assault with all your Harlequins.

Mind Warring isn't that great when you're testing on leadership 5...

Because every list has 5 unkillable models with Psychic Scream. Come on. Yes, you are right, Mind War isn't great when you're testing on LD5. Look at the lists around you. Most of the Stealer Zilla lists have no Psychic Screams at all because they can't afford the Zoeys. The full choir lists like the one I would play are a whole different ball game. Those lists aren't supported by anything but the minimum 16 Gaunts, and consist entirely of monsters and Zoanthropes. It's just a shame that if you bunch up your monsters to maximise PS a couple units of Harlequins will chew through all of them in short order without ever letting you shoot at them. 12 Harlequins, 6 Fire Dragons and 2 bike Autarchs against 1420 points of miscellaneous Tyranid monsters, and the Eldar will win. If and when the Eldar assault on their terms, you lose 4 MC's including one of the Tyrants in the first wave, and the Eldar just consolidate into more monsters. While the Eldar assault section is doing this, the "always-shaken" Falcons will do anything to prevent your troops getting help, like making a 3 grav-tank wide/long wall (tank shocking if necessary) between your stricken monsters and the rest of your army.

Mind-war range is 18", psychic scream range is 18". How exactly are you going to get all 5 screamers within range of eldrad when he just came out of a falcon that moved! Let's be realistic here.

Plus he rolls 3 dice and picks the two lowest - even if you get his leadership to 8, that's a likely pass with best 2 of 3 dice.

Plus he can mind-war twice.

I brought the psychic choir (7 MCs, 3 Zoans, 24 stealers) to the irish GT two weekends ago, and almost everybody I played was either fearless, or fearless when joined with an IC.. Only the eldar weren't, but they move a lot more than the 6" a turn zoans do. I know it works on LD tests as well as morale ones, but it's not worth bringing for the ultra rare occurance it'll do something. Someone like eldrad it'll have little effect on, marine psychers it can mess with, but marines are easy meat for NidZilla anyway...

I don't think I'll ever be bringing the choir to another tourney, at least an extra warp blast works on everybody (well the low strength one anyway). That's a bit beside the point though, psychic scream is not some kind of miracle cure for Eldrad sadly.

You are right about escalation slowing down godzilla nids.

I am undefeated with my Nids at RTTs. Only once did I play in a mission where my army started in reserve (scouting mission), and that was against a vanilla nid player who ran at me as fast as he could.

But in the local league I played them and I won only about 50% of my games. The reasons why is that they knew what army they were going to be facing ahead of time and they tooled up to fight godzilla nids, and also because I rolled a lot of escalation missions.  Not only recon hurts them, but the fact that your big bugs are trickling on, and the effective range of a dakkafex is only 24" means that a lot of your firepower will be unable to be used for most of the game.

In my experience mech eldar do ok against godzilla nids. They can fly circles around them, and others have pointed out how they can beat them. But but I will say that I have had good luck against falcons and skimmers with my venom cannons. The strength 10 shots almost always glance, and the special rule rule for skimmers always glancing is not that big of a deal, since venom cannons can only glance anyways.

I have been looking through the lists posted recently and have a question.

Where did the ravaners go?
They were one of the most usefull things in the entire zilla list.
Ravaners to hit threats from far away(such as dev squads or tau suits), gaunts to tie things down, zillas to deal with everything else.

Are they no longer needed or is it only because you guys are all discussing 1500 lists?

It's just because they're making 1500pt lists, trying to maximize big bugs with fairly light troops. In larger lists you'll almost always see Raveners. Even in 1500pt lists they're very common.

Godzilla bugs being hurt by escallation depends on how you interpret the table edges in the rules. If you can come in the side, then it isn't really a problem (And is also why big bugs are more common/deadlier) in the midwest where they play this way.

Even if they get to come in on the sides they are still hurt . Getting shot by lascannons while comming on peicemeal can really really hurt.
If they chose to hide behind cover and come out to play turn 5 and 6 they will lose the shooting war in the short run as their major strength is lasting in a slug fest.

Most tournements have them coming in from the long table edge.

Even when you can come on from the sides, a fast army will be able to move away and then you have a long table to work with.

Alot of Tournies use the Adepticon FAQ which has them coming in on the side

Posted By quozl on 08/27/2007 3:19 AM
As an aside, a list with 4 MCs really doesn't resemble NidZilla at all. The key strength of NidZilla is 30 odd MC wounds, and making half your opponents weapons useless. 4 MCs doesn't do that.

I should clarify, it was 22 MC wounds, 10 of those were T7. I killed the two T7 sniper fexes and the tyrant, and the lone unit of genestealers, and that was it.

He killed 30 kroot (which as usual, MVP's, gave my army the space to do stuff), a helios commander that was poking at the MC's all game until 5th turn charge by hormagaunts, and destroyed a devilfish plus the fire warriors.

I had 3 hammerheads in his deployment zone, plus a few suits. Won by plenty for the massacre.

Come to think of it, if there were another 8 MC wounds, they would have been instead of the warriors I imagine, which didn't do anything all game (I didn't even bother shooting at them, I just stayed out of range, he stayed out of range), as well as something else (he has a lictor, as mentioned a unit of genies, and lots of gaunts). If he had that, then I probably would have had a harder time with the suits. Basically, they probably wouldn't have made his deployment zone.

That doesn't sound like a great list at all onlainari., at least if it is it certainly isn't competitive NidZilla.

I'd also be very suspect of the competitiveness of a player who'd spend points making two gunfexs 5 wound, T7 before adding more wounds in the form of more MCs...

So, still good work for crushing it, but don't base your opinions of NidZilla on that.

Well, back at work and have enjoyed reading up on the lastest blogs about this topic. You keep asking about my list and I informed you that is 16 units with just one upgrade at 1500. Thou at 1850 my list becomes death, this is the point total that I play at.

I am going to try and make the Ard Boys and maybe I will get lucky at 2500 point to see a Nidzilla list. Thou I am not going to break from my core rule of five. So it is going to be a good amount of upgrades all around.

I hope you guys are not getting all bent out of shap over your list. I just want you all to know that I am seeking to play this list at 1850 because it is one of the list, I have yet to play. I would not mind putting this list on the wall of list that died to the Green Marines. 

Main thing I am looking out is the amount of fire you can drop at 1500 points. Your range has a lot to do with the amount of fire that you are able to put out. As you creep forward, you will be checking into new lines of fire and new squads that will be firing into your mobs.  Mission is also something that you have to look at, and being a good general will use this to his advantage. Planking one side of your wall down so that other units will be able to move into your back field. Hell, you cant focus your fire at everything all around you and that is something I would work to use againts you. I would also look at baiting out your gen and Hive Tyrant so that I can bring him down.

Old saying about flash lights bringing down units of termies. Enough fire will bring down a big bug because you have a good chance of rolling that one.

I on the other hand have a simple concept, 3plus save.  Most if not all of your army is going to give me a save vs what you plan on spitting out at my marines.  Most of the list show four models able to bring ap to the board. Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.

Placement, focus fire, movement of units, mission objective and sub-objectives.  If we are in range, T7 mobs would be two plus a turn with ease. This would be your AP units first unless you dont have upgraded armour. Then its going to be a major plank feast. I have not played a 1500 point game in a very very long time.  All of the games I have played at have been 1850 plus.  At that point total I am going to be doing a lot of upgrades and adding a leader and a command squad.  I would also be upgrading my dev units to two heavy bolters per units.

Well, lets keep this topic going because I just like to read up on all the things people do. The only thing I see that would cause my list to lose is a heavy foot slogging army ie SM, Blood Angels. 

 

That  shows you don't really understand how NidZilla works. Everything gets a save against it, it's not about AP, and 3+ armour is not an effective defence against it.

It's about making you take so many saves that you fail some. You made the point that even the TMCs will fail saves. The thing is, they're toughness 6, that's what really protects them. So firstly, with most weapons, you need to roll a 6 to wound then a 1 or 2 to fail a save.

Against marine, devourers either need to roll a 2 or a 3 to wound WITH A RE-ROLL.
You then have a 1/3 chance of dying. So a 89% chance of being wounded (assuming wound on 3s , eg the weaker tyrant not the fex), followed by 1/3rd of those wounds being failed.

Massed devourer fire slaughters 3+ saves. It's nothing to do with AP. It also is unaffected by invulnerable saves - they're all invulnerable to AP-, or often by cover as barring 5+ and 6+ armour, you'd be getting as good an armour as cover save against NidZilla anyway.

I on the other hand have a simple concept, 3plus save. Most if not all of your army is going to give me a save vs what you plan on spitting out at my marines. Most of the list show four models able to bring ap to the board. Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.

 

Thinking the last line on this box text said what you said. 

 

Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.  I have faced the pie plate before and it still allowed me to save. Range on the weapon is not that good either. Thus this is something I would look at taking advantage. Next, your dev only has a 18" range as well.

Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.  I have faced the pie plate before and it still allowed me to save.

Range on the weapon is not that good either. Thus this is something I would look at taking advantage. Next, your dev only has a 18" range as well.

Aye, you said that everything else would be sending out saves in droves, but you didn't seem to get it. Cause enough saves and you will fail some. A pie-plate might cause 5 wounds on a tactical squad. a Dakkatyrant averages 10 2/3. That's a big difference. The barbed strangler is not the big marine killer, it's the devourer. The VC/strangler is 36" range, 42" effective as it's assault. I don't get how you can say that's not good range. It's still the devourer that will do most of the marine killing though.

The effective range of devourers is 24", as they're assault weapons. On turn 2, assuming a 12" deployment zone, they will threaten 42" deep. By turn 3 it's the full width of the board is in range. Escalation is a bastard for nidzilla, but in non escalation, devourer range is not a problem. Except against long range, very mobile units such as eldar falcons.

I am trying to understand why you guys keep saying that I do not understand what I am talking about.  I have played the nid race many, many times. What really hurt my army was the fast moving little bugs that tied me up. Blast temp, and ranged dps did little or no damage to my army.

Guy, I do understand what you army has to offer. Now it comes down to the rest of the factors in the game.  We are going to be blasting each other off the board. 

Because you keep saying things that you wouldn't if you understood how Godzilla plays.

A good example of this is how you keep mentioning that you'll get saves... No kidding... And for every three saves you have to make, dead Marine. It's a 3+ save, not a 1+ save. You will fail one in three. You're going to be making a lot.

Again: A single Dakkafex will kill two Marines per turn. Yes, with your saves... And because they do it with volumes of wounds, cover saves don't help.

Let me put that in context a little more for you: A Landraider will also kill 2 Marines per turn, but it costs 250 points. And that's if they're standing in the open. If they're in 5+ cover, it goes down to about 1.58 dead Marines. A 114 point Dakkafex, of which there will be three, is more dangerous to your Marines than a Land Raider.

Let me put it in yet more context for you: A Warwalker with dual Starcannons will kill only 1.67 Marines per turn in the open, and only 1.39 per turn if they're in cover.

And yet more: An Assault Cannon, one of the most dreaded weapons in the game, will kill 1.23 Marines per turn. If they're in 5+ cover, it'll only kill 1. You get what I'm telling you? When your Marines are in cover, a 114 point Dakkafex is as dangerous to them as TWO Assault Cannons.

And it's not like there aren't tables with 4+ cover, even 3+ cover. As the cover gets better, Dakkafex stays just as good.

And you keep reminding everyone that you'll get saves.



And I posted a list with 6 MCs, 3 Zoanthropes and 80 Gaunts. This list is more models than yours, 80 of the fast moving little bugs you suggest are a problem, plus 6 of the big bugs you would be even more scared of if you were paying any attention to the statistics I'm giving you.

One more time, because it's funny to see how many times you ignore me: Please post your list.

Bonus: Please post your list.

@Tarval Do you have a list for this super SM army of yours? Oh, and have you played in the GT's this year with your super Marines?

Darrian

If I can handle four if not five of these MC. What is to stop me from finishing off seven or eight of them. Math is pointless in this game because its not about your save vs my save vs my shoots vs my str vs my wounds. Its how you play the game. I am not trying to wrinkle anybodies feathers, I am just saying that I dont think this list could handle my list. Until I get a chance to face this list, I will have to stand my ground.

16 units at 1500 points with one upgrade. You pick the upgrade, but I do not play at 1500 because its so few points. I enjoy 1850 plus pref because it adds options to the game. I see what you are trying to do is to trap me into your 1500 point game. At that lvl you just might have the edge, but once you step up into 1850 I see it gone with ease.

Mission will never jenks me because I am a pure foot slogging army. You on the other hand will call foul if the mission went the wrong way. I am just saying that I have faced a heavy amount of fire and save and save and saved. If I do happen to drop a few marines a turn, what about you. How much in return are you going to take.

This reminds me of magic the card game. Turn one combo for your army list, if its is unable to bring what it needs to the for front, its dead.

 

It does not matter what I post for an army list, you will try to back your point up with math. That is all you have factored in is math. Math does not win games guys, there are a lot of factors that win games. I am just factoring in everything and you are not.

 

BTW, gaunts are a waste of time. Little bugs refers to a mass of little bugs of all kinds. Sorry I did not point that out awhile back. It is only a problem because I have to work the kill zone to stop the over flow at each teir. Good general will pick the zilla list apart and that is what I am talking about.

 

Last RTT I went to saw the Eldar player dead, Nid player draw only because of the take 45 mins to set up and chat with people around you. Remind you that both carnies down to one wound behind a hill, flyer tyrant dead, most of the army about to die. First time I played against a staller. Next game was vs BT who had one really nice looking army. Thou the game was called on round three after the judge did not explain set up. Thus we had to reset two time and I have a really big army to lay down. Thou it was a draw because it stopped on turn three and I had I would say about 90 percent of my army moving forward to face a dread with out any gear, dead rhino with hq unit that would of been blasted at range. BT champ walking from boards edge. I tied because we had to stop due to the area being needed for the event, and he had the closet model to the center object. Two more crushing victories would of been nice to add to the day. Thou I did enjoy just playing in the event because I had not played in awhile.

Tactic and few years under my belt have showed me how to pick an army apart. Zilla list just has few set in stone core rules about it. 

 

Cant wait to play it thou, and if I do get my butt handed to me, I will be more than happy to post it at 1850.

In other words, 'I'm a troll'

you mean the 16 units on the 15 unit organization chart didn't give it away?

Posted By IntoTheRain on 08/31/2007 6:47 AM
you mean the 16 units on the 15 unit organization chart didn't give it away?

when did nids drop to a 15 slot foc? there were 17 slots last time I checked.

Posted By skyth on 08/31/2007 6:19 AM
In other words, 'I'm a troll'

Hey, he's not a troll, he's just playing fair.  It's not sporting of us to use Math, or statistics, or common freaking sense in analyzing an army list.  What's far more important is that we take the word of a clueless blowhard who tells us that his super list really whips the gomers down home.

Please, if you can't believe irrational braggarts on the internet, who can you trust?

Devourers are utterly horrific.
They mulch me, even with 4+ cover saves.
Uuurggh.

Tarval every tournament I've run Nidzilla at has been 2000pts so this is not Nidzilla rules at 1500pts only. I've lost 1 game to super shooty Eldar and that was a minor loss at that and I was playing a friend at the tournament who had 1st place if I lost. At the time about 50% of my army was unpainted so even with 3 massacre's I wouldn't place due to being almost 18pts behind everyone to start with.

So there wasn't any point in beating my friend as it would only knock him out of the tournament. So I played friendly by deploying in a horrid fashion, and running all my genestealers across open terrain straight at his Dire Avengers. lol.

However after many tournaments I need to two hands to count how many times I've heard the words "Oh my god I'm dying to Tyranid shooting!" not counting the times I've had people simply walk away from the table turn 3, and throw in the towel.

It's far from unbeatable however the general tactics I see from the majority at tournaments simply cannot overcome the brutality of the list. It's not a this is the only way I can win as I will throw my Dark Eldar down on the table, and have taken them to many tournaments. They make Nidzilla look "friendly".

Now this year I didn't do the GT thing as I was busy volunteering at Games Days but wasn't the tournament at 1750? In the Pacific Northwest where I have been the past year or so all the tourneys have switched to this point value. And I beleive the Nids are doing great everywhere. Eldar were ruling the day at the beginning of the summer in the Seattle area, but there aren't as many nid players up there.

Where Godzillas shine is the "Take-all-comers" lists at RTTs.

It is very hard for a "balanced" list to overcome that many TMC.

There are some lists that can give it a run for it's money..Both kinds of Eldar come to mind.

And Torval, your list is not balanced. You will lose to almost any missions where you have to move for bonus victory points. .

He mentioned using combat squads so he can indeed have more 'scoring' units then the FOC normally allows.

So I'll go out on a limb and figure he's using 3 dev squads split into seperate combat squads and then a number of tacs with lascannons? Still, don't see how a shooty DA/BA list can compete with a true nidzilla list.

Maybe the nidzilla guys were idiots.

I am inclined to believe that a maine horde is a tough list, even with DA inefficiencies but it will have a jon killing zilla. It can be done if the tacticals are loaded with lascannon (or heavy bolter) combat squads and melta & fist combat squads. DA can provide the lascannon firepower, and the fists required to fight zilla. Libararian's force weapon should also deal with monsters too, but all these have got to get there.

Twelve Dev missile launchers and about four tac lascannon shooting the gunfexes, two tac heavy bolter combat squads shooting the stealers, eight fist/command squads dealing with the dakkafexes and flyrant. It can be done I think, but I would not think you could consistently beat zilla with it. Its slow, filled with expensive choices (I havent looked at the costing yet) and a smart zilla player will pick off those fist squads that are the most threatening.

Five man squads with Fists are not going to stand up long. You also have to worry about Torrent of Fire.

And the whole list is so static that a terrain-heavy board would be a nightmare.

POST.  YOUR.  GOD.  DAMN.  LIST.

POST IT.

POST THE LIST.

Good lord...

How do you make decisions in the game?  Do you base it off which models look the meanest?  Which colors are the brightest?  Your horoscope?

I'll answer for you:  You base it off the capabilities of the models.

What math does is gives us precise means to understand what a model's capabilities are.  There is still an element of chance.  There is still a need to apply the understanding math gives us...  But mathematical probability is the basis for understanding what should and should not work.

The fact that you don't understand this, and instead base all your judgements off the tiny sample set of things that have happened in your last few games, undermines your credibility as an authority on 40K tactics.

Additionally, POST YOUR LIST.

You don't bother with math, but you can see whole games playing out in your mind, and in detail, and different point levels.  I'm skeptical.  It feels like having a homeless guy tell me about the stock market.

I play 1500 point games.  It offers plenty of room for customization, but is reasonably quick to play.  I've played countless games at 1750 and 1850 as well.

I'm not trying to trap you into anything.  1500 is where I build my lists.  I think a lot of people do these days.  I didn't choose it because I think it helps my argument, I chose it because I play there, and so do a lot of other people.

Take Godzilla to 1750 or 1850...  It just means another Tyrant, more Gaunts, Raveners, etc. etc.

Regardless of the points level, why not POST YOUR LIST?

Or, instead, POST YOUR LIST?

You just dismissed math as "pointless."  You're the one who won't factor things in.  You base everything off of a few recent games you played, especially ONE, where you failed to even finish off the limited number of MCs the guy brought.  You're factoring in a single game, and only the parts you like.  That's "everything?"  No, that's "a fraction of a tiny fraction."

The rest of us are factoring in math, our own experiences, the experiences of others, game theory, tactical theory and countless other variables.

The reason I am presenting you with math is not because it proves, in and of itself, that Godzilla always wins.  I'm bringing it up because I want you to see that your perceptions are off.  The very foundations of your decisions are baseless.

For example, you play Marines.  Knowing you, you think a Lascannon is just the best thing ever.  So, ask yourself, and remember you answer:  Which is more dangerous to your Marines, the shooting of a Dakkafex, or the shooting of 3 Marines with Lascannons?

Got your answer?  You're guessing 3x Lascannons, right?

WRONG.  3 Lascannons shots at BS4 will kill 1.67 Marines.  And that's in the open.  In 5+ cover, it's only 1.1.  And the Dakkafex will kill 2 every turn, cover or not.

That's my point.  I'm not saying that math tells us everything about winning the game.  It tells us the basic stuff that we then expand upon to win the game.  You don't even get the BASICS.  You're going to beat one of the most broken, unbeatable lists in the game, and you don't even understand the basic capabilities of the list?

No.  You're not.

POST YOUR LIST.

You're scared to post your list because I'll "use math" on it?  What is math to you?  Some barely understood magic power?  Am I a Jedi because I understand very basic principles of probability?

Post the list.  I'm willing to bet I won't even need math to pick it apart.  Something tells me you don't even know the rules well enough to build a legal list.

Post the list.

I've tried to be nice to this point, but you're impossible.  You won't post your list, you won't listen, you won't produce a cogent response.  I know you're not going to get any smarter in the immediate future, but the LEAST you could do is post your list.

Do you think it's some sort of magic formula that will allow everyone else to be as fictionally awesome as you are?

Is it the formula for Coke?

Just post the goddamn list, dude.

In reading Phryxis's response, I almost fell out of my chair laughing 5 times.

 

My favorite line was about probability being a Jedi mind trick.  Epic.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/31/2007 5:16 PM

I am just saying that I dont think this list could handle my list.

POST.  YOUR.  GOD.  DAMN.  LIST.

POST IT.

POST THE LIST.

Additionally, POST YOUR LIST.

Regardless of the points level, why not POST YOUR LIST?

Or, instead, POST YOUR LIST?

POST YOUR LIST.

Post the list.  I'm willing to bet I won't even need math to pick it apart. 

Post the list.

I know you're not going to get any smarter in the immediate future, but the LEAST you could do is post your list.

Just post the goddamn list, dude.

So, what are you trying to say?

I refuse to read any more of this thread because somebody will use math on me.

This thread is great.  It gets me thru a dull day at work.


PS:  Tarval, Post your list.

Posted By Polonius on 08/31/2007 8:00 PM
I refuse to read any more of this thread because somebody will use math on me.

Oh noes! The chance of rolling a 6 can't be 1/6! MY BRAIN HURTS. Stop using probabilities!

Mate, what is so wrong with saying the chance of flipping heads is 1/2? I don't see anything wrong with that...

Admittedly, the math in this thread sucks, but that doesn't mean it can't be good.

Mathhammer - The guide

PS:  Tarval, Post your list.

After a long sucky evening of procrastination and bursts of work, this has cheered me up.
Cheers lads.
ps. post the list mate.

Funny how everybody wants me to post my list. Post post post, I have not lost a game and am not saying my list is just the zilla killer of all time. I am just saying after looking what the list has to offer, I dont see it stacking up at 1850. Now a few post back, talked about how 1500 was more of a game for the zilla because of what you could fit in at that point lvl.  He has a good point and I pointed that out as well. You might be doing great at 1500 but at 1850 it a new area of play. 

I live in Texas and I have always played 1750 or higher and that has been that way for years. Your list functions off your Tyrant and your gen. With out that you list will fail once hth hits your wall of MC.  You talk as if I will have two marines dead a turn like it a common thing. First you have to hit me, you have a good chance to wound me but you could still fail. Then I get a 3plus save, if not a cover save from your few AP weapon you do have.

17 slots in the FOC btw for the person that posted only 15.

I have played a lot of games and most of the people that I play after the game talk about the 3plus save. Man you just have to man saves.

What is wrong with saying that I know that my army can stand up to a GoDZilla list.  I have not faced it before and you have not face my list before. You might of played somebody that has something like my list, but you did not play the general behind the list.

Lascannon are the win, thou I only have four of them in my army. Multi Melta, Plasma guns, Plasma Pistols, missle launchers, power fist, power weapon. I have a all kinds of gear to take apart another army. 

 

Thou I did like the guy that post about reading up on this at work. I myself enjoy reading up on it as well, thou I did not have a lot of time tonight to post anything. Will talk some more. 

 

KEEP THE TOPIC ROLLING

Okay, now you're just out to annoy Phryxis.
As long as it results in more comedy gold I don't mind, but I don't think you realise that his numbers (2 dead marines) factor in the chance to hit and wound, and your save. It's an average number, sometimes it will be higher, sometimes lower, but it should hover around 2.

The shooty DA infantry horde has a chance against Godzilla Nids.

They have a lot of high strength/high AP weapons in 5 man squads that can sit back ans shoot. Also they have a lot of plasma guns that can shoot at the little bugs and then plasma the dakkafexs after they are dead.


There are a few things going for the Nids though.

#1. Terrain. It will have a huge effect on the game. The more terrain, the higher the chance of the Nids winning.


#2. Nids can move and shoot, the Marines really can't. So the Nids can move to good shooting positions where they can unleash their full shooting potential, while limiting the amount of return fire,

#3. The high point limits mean Ravenors. They will hit the lines in a hurry, block LOS, and cause havoc to your gun line.


Of course when Torval starts to talk about Plasma pistols, Multi-meltas and power weapons he starts to lose me.

Yeah, tarval clearly is a noob.

<table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"> <tbody> <tr> <td>Dakkafex vs marines</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="code"># success - P(# success)
0               - 0.108
1               - 0.277
2               - 0.311
3               - 0.200
4               - 0.0802
5               - 0.0206
6               - 0.00331
7               - 0.000303
8               - 0.0000122</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Phryxis, don't feed the troll.

I am ok with people having radically different opinions, and going against the flow. Hell I do so myself, its cool so long as you post all the information to back up your words. But if you won't defend your arguement it has no value. Tarval has nothing to say, ignore all future comments from him on this thread.

Due to the fact that I am half Jedi on my uncle's room mate's side, my chances of rolling a six are one in 1.67 in or out of cover, unless pathfinders are shooting. Then I will always roll a 3 or a 7 (on one die). But your chance to fail your 2+ save is 16 in 96.

Orion

P.S. Tyranids don't need math, it doesn't break down into biomass. All that's left after they are done with a planet is a lifeless, airless rock and math. And maybe some killer space marine lists.

P.P.S.  Thou and though are very different words.  Thou is the medieval vulgar argot  way of saying you or you all.  It goes with thee, thou, thine, (you, you all, and yours)

I really dont think you have faced 82 marines. Guy that I last played with nids almost finished me off. Thou I got the crushing victory because I have played too long. I keep planking his carni, and put some wounds into another MC. He only had a flyer over half str to take one board edge. 500 x3 plus what I killed vs what he killed got me the crushing victory.  Once again, after the game David talked about the three plus save. Its not that I get a three plus save, its that I get 82 of them to work with. Do you really have the fire power to burn down 17 units off the FOC? You talk as if you are going to kill two a turn, 3x2x6=36 marine dead in 6 turns. What about the other 46 marine that you have yet to talk about. Venom cannon take two a turn if you get lucky so will go 50/50 1. that is another 24 marines dead if your lucky, minus saves inv. 22 marine still on the board for you to kill with pie plates that give saves. I'll give you half that, 12 marines still on the board at turn 6. Your hth, I will give you nill because it will only cost you more to seek out hth then to just sit around and do nothing. If you want your hth, I get your Tyrant and your gen with ease. You get 10 marines if your lucky, that is if you dont get a bad roll for moving in cover like this one guy did with his gen. Only to have that unit burned down because he rolled the famous one, thinking he was going to get a better roll.

You kill two, I still have three in the squad. This is going to force you to focus your fire to burn down the problem in that squad. You only have so many units to shoot with, and if you fail to finish you task. That unit is going to return fire again the following turn.

  This number does not even factor in how much damage I will put out.  50 bolter shoot, 15 percent, about 7 wounds a turn? You list shows that you are taking 3plus on three or even six of your MC. Question is if you run all your MC at 2plus save or just a few.  I am thinking you dont because you are looking to branch out with other item on the FOC. So, roll seven dice and see how many one's and two's you get ok. Hell, you just might see a MC die to bolter fire? BTW two plus save did not save the Hive Tyrant in hth when he assault me.

If I did post a list you would only come back with oh oh, this list owns that list.  I am just saying that I think I have a really good chance of taking this list apart. The list is new like most posters posted and said.  People dont always bring what they think they will need. When people face my list, just like yours, they are ahh shocked. They just dont have what is needed to take the list apart.

Thou a lot of you are going hard core with the smack talk. My list has not lost a game, your's has! Let work with numbers ok. 0 lost games, 3-6-9 something what ever lost games.  There are some list out there, that have cause you to lose a game?  There are only a few list out there left for me to play a few time to cause me to have a lose.

I am bringing 87 men to the Arb Boys and maybe I will get lucky to see a Zilla GoD list, maybe?   If I do, I am going to pull out the old 1850 and give it a smack down.

Walking in a six turn game is not a problem for my army gang. I have done it to many times because I dont run a heavy weapon in every squad. Not ever heavy weapon will have something to shoot at once it has finished its task.

 

Will chat some more gang, enjoyed the post thus far. Killed some time at work as well, which I do enjoy. Thanks

 

Funny how you still won't. And in this case, by "funny" I mean "incredibly sad."



Yet again, something you wouldn't say if you knew anything about the list. The core of the list is are the three Elite Dakkafexes. They're an incredible deal for the points, capable of huge volumes of fire, capable of shrugging off huge volumes of fire. The other models change, but these three guys do not.

Some lists don't even use Genestealers. I wouldn't if I had the Gaunts painted.



There's nothing wrong with saying it.

The problem is when you can't explain why. The problem is that when you try to explain why, you demonstrate a total lack of understanding of the Godzilla list, and of the fundamental concepts of the game. The problem is that you brag on your list for a dozen posts, but refuse repeatedly to post it.



AHAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAH...

AHAHhhahahahAHAHHA....

Good GOD, dude. Good god.

You literally don't even know what probabilities are, do you? When I tell you that a Dakkafex kills 2 Marines per turn, you think I'm like you, and just speak in blurted, baseless assertions. I just picked 2, and I think that's what feels right.

Dude, NO. The statistical average Marines killed by a round of shooting from a Dakkafex is 2. I didn't make that up, that's how it works. Do you understand what an average is?



Holy CRAP dude. You have Multi-Meltas in your list? You are, by definition, clueless. Multi-Meltas are junk. They're not a weapon that any seriously powergamed army will field on infantry.

No wonder you don't want to post your list, it's a joke.



You really don't listen, do you?

I've PLAYED 82 marines. The army I have the most experience with is Marines, shooty biased, infantry heavy. I play your army, and I'm willing to bet I play it better than you do, with your Multi-Meltas and your 16 squads.



Yeah, 36 dead marines out of 342 points. You're talking about less than a quarter of the points in the list. There's still 1158 points worth of other models also killing on your Marines.

Be honest. Are you slowed?



What? Now you're going to use math? Good, young Jedi, give into the hate. Give in to the darkside of thinking. Give in to logic and fact, instead of baseless speculation and stupidity.

Let me show you how the dark side works.

50 bolter shots... BS4 means 2/3 hit, so you get 33.3 hits. Each hit has a 1/6 chance to wound a T6 Carnifex. So you get 5.56 wounds. Each wound has a 1/3 chance to get past the 3+ save. End result is 1.85 wounds.

So, no, not 7 wounds per turn.

But 7 is a number, instead of a base, animal emotion, so you're already expanding your tactical vocabularly. Bravo!



So what? It's not like you listen to anything anybody says, or care what's being explained to you. I'd just like to have a nice laugh at your idea of an unbeatable list.



Bro, I tried to start out polite. I tried. You're being incredibly stubborn, you brag endlessly on the power of your list, you absolutely REFUSE to read what's being posted by anybody else. In the end, it's all so disrespectful I just have to return the favor.

Post your list. Stop acting like we're the ones who can't be trusted to respond fairly. Have you not noticed that EVERYONE in this thread thinks you're a moron? Are we all stupid? Are we all being unfair to your list? Do you know how statistically unlikely it is that we're ALL messed up in the head, and you're the only one that's not?

Oh, wait, of course not. You don't even know what statistics are.

BTW, is anybody else reeling at the irony that Ed Maule started this thread, and now isn't here to see this guy so totally failing to understand the SAFH Marine concepts that Ed himself helped develop?

Um, just because I would like to further my own knowledge, what is SAFH? I looked around for a glossery or something and couldn't find one for the life of me. I don't mean to hijack the thread, I'd just like to know.

Posted By onlainari on 08/31/2007 11:02 PM
Yeah, tarval clearly is a noob.

<table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"> <tbody> <tr> <td>Dakkafex vs marines</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="code"># success - P(# success)
0               - 0.108
1               - 0.277
2               - 0.311
3               - 0.200
4               - 0.0802
5               - 0.0206
6               - 0.00331
7               - 0.000303
8               - 0.0000122</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Hahaha, that is pretty ironic phryxis. At least I think it is. I'm a stats person not a language person.

SAFH is shooting army from hell.

Lets do the 50 bolter shots, to compare with the dakkafex I posted up there. Recall that just because you kill 2 on average, does not mean you will kill 2. In fact a dakkafex has 10.8% chance of doing nothing. It is more useful to know the distribution than the average.

<table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"> <tbody> <tr> <td>Marines vs dakkafex
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="code"># success - P(# success)
0               - 0.152
1               - 0.291
2               - 0.275
3               - 0.169
4               - 0.0764
5               - 0.0270
6               - 0.00779
7+            - 0.00236
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Hahaha tarval said around 7 wounds. What a moron. The chance of between 7 and 50 wounds is one in 424!

Admittedly one in 424 happens occasionally (everyone has horror stories), but good luck trying!

It's WAY more useful. It's also much more time consuming to calcuate, and much more difficult to represent.

I should probably get off my ass and remember the combinatorics classes I took, then write myself a little application to generate a simple distribution notation.

What I think would be nice would be to have three values, the average, then the high and low results that define the range in which, say, 80% of the results will fall. Or 90%, or whatever makes sense.

Not sure exactly how to calcuate that, short of brute force. Any ideas onlainari?

Okay, I just want to talk about tailoring lists against a list that you post versus posting a list to illustrate your point. For instance I haven't been too troubled by Zillla lists at tourneys as here is a list I actually took and used at a tourney. I change between each tourney to keep my regular opponents on their toes but this did face a zilla list and I acheived a solid victory and all bonus points (getting a massacre would have been very hard)

My list

Avatar

Farseer with doom and mindwar (one per turn only)

2 x 10 Dire Avengers with exarch/2 shuricats/Bladestorm

4 x 5 pathfinders

10 Harlequins/shadowseer/all with harlie kisses

10 Fire dragons w/exarch/dragons breath/crack shot in Waveserpent with TL Brightlance/vectored engines/spiritstones

Wraithlord with 2 flamers/Brightlance

3 Deathspinner artillery batteries

Total 1848 points

The opponent had 6 fexes, 2 flying Hive tyrant, 2 squads of genies, and all the rest spine gaunts.

In turn one I killed one of the tyrants with the rangers, caused 4 wounds that were AP1. This took three of my ranger squads and was pretty lucky. The other squad wounded one elite fex (it failed its regualr 3+ save) The d spinners hit on target and removed most of one swarm of gaunts. wave serpent hid, wraithlord hit with brightlance but fex regenerated in its turn. Wraithlord took one wound in return. Nid player charged forward and got pretty close to range.

Turn two rangers inflicted 2 wounds ona dakka fex and killed the elite fex. One squad eaten by a fex. One genestealer squad nailed by d spinner killing 6 of 10. Wraithlord put another wound on the dakka fex but took another wound in return. Injured unit of gaunts and one additonal unit blade stormed out of existence (doom used on uninjured squad to ensure death) One unit of DA wiped out by remaining gaunt units. Avatar charged by winged tyrant, tyrant took 2 wounds avatar 1.

Turn three. Dragons moved to put heavy flamer on unit of gaunts and wiped out all but three. Wraithlord with only one wound flamed and locked last squad of gaunts in CC. Rangers finish off wounded dakka fex, one more squad eaten. Harlies moved up to charge genies, missed distance, charged in return, in simo combat all 8 genies dies to 6 harlies (made some great saves, mostly luck) remaining 2 genies fled and wiped out harlies moved to take out elite fex in next turn. Avatar took one more wound but killed tyrant. D spinners missed every thing. dragons charged by gaunts lost one but wiped out gaunts.

Turn four d spinners drop on dakka fex, no wounds. Dragons able to kill one elite fex, avatar shot to death by dakka fexes, harlies kill other elite fex but killed in turn by four remaining genies from first squad (but do kill two). Wraithlord wins combat but gaunts stay with snake eyes. ranger and serpent able two wound one dakka fex four times but it regens 3 of them! Farseer decides the demons in the warp are cool and blows his own head off. DA take one objective, FD take additional objective opponent moved in wrong direction to kill avatar and forgot to take 3rd objective with dakka fex.

End of game due to time. Rangers performed above average, harlies saved above average, farseer commited suicide and avatar just about average performance. Denied most of the spine fist shooting to the nid player which could easily have killed my harlies or even my avatar. He charged forward a little too much (he admitted he was new to spine gaunts as he usually took hormies).

Now, many of the nid players here will probably see things wrong in my opponents tactics, targeting, list etc. but this shows how I am prepared for a Zilla list with my regular balanced list, also this list won against necrons and ultramarines in the same day. And this was the last 1850 tourney I played in. Since then they have all been 1750.

BUT the important point is I have posted my list, shown how it worked in a game and I am not afraid to look at math or what if scenarios. On paper and post boards everyone wins. In reality it is different but you won't learn how to play your army better unless you field the what ifs. Then when you see something in real life you have at least contemplated the scenario and don't need to panic.

Orion

That, right there, is the easiest way to deal with TMCs. Sniper weapons. Pathfinders are perfect for the task, with their added AP.

95% CI, ie you +/- z*s.e(u) where z is close to 2, is done for statistics analysis when the data is distributed normally.

The beauty of dice is that we know the distribution exactly. We don't have to guess. We don't have data on hrs worked and hrs sleep and try to find the relationship. We have dice that (assuming they're fair) follow the binomial distribution.

So CI are pointless for dice. For the hrs worked and hrs sleep relationship, we can say for every hr extra you work, you sleep 0.1 hrs or 6 minutes less. However because, unlike dice, we don't know the exact distribution, we give a 95% CI, thus while it is expected you sleep 6 minutes less for every extra hr of work, we are 95% confidant you sleep between 3 minutes and 9 minutes less for every extra hr of work.

Once someone gives you the distribution, like I have for the dakkafex, you take those numbers as given. They are just as accurate as saying the chance of flipping heads is 50%. You want to work out what you have a good chance of getting? Just look at the numbers, they tell the story.

And yes when I noticed the 4*5 pathfinders, I laughed. Great anti-zilla unit right there. Lemme do the distribution for 5 pathfinder shots, brb.

Olinari, one thing I think most people forget about numbers (myself included) is that things will balance over time. We all have to remember that the math will balance out through the course of all the games we play and won't always work at the moment that we think it should.

Orion

If I flip a coin, and I flip heads, what's the probability of me flipping tails next flip?

It's still 50% as everyone knows.

It will not "balance out" like people say it will.

All you can say is that, after flipping the first heads, over time that extra heads will become less significant.

If you rolled 3 6's, doesn't reduce your chance of rolling that again. It's just that over time, that roll becomes insignificant. It does not "balance out", you will not "counter" all your hits with misses.



Just because your dakkafex didn't kill a marine this turn, doesn't mean it will kill 4 marines next turn to balance that out. It's just over 100 turns, that one turn of not killing marines will become insignificant.

<table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"> <tbody> <tr> <td>Pathfinders vs dakkafex
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="code"># success - P(# success)
0               - 0.237
1               - 0.396
2               - 0.364
3               - 0.0879
4               - 0.0146
5               - 0.000977
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Average = 1.25.

This is quite true, and in my opinion this is what people mean when they say balance out.

This is because statistics say that over the course of those one hundred tosses the average will be 50 heads and 50 tails, even if at some point you string 13 heads in a row.

It is just like in third grade math when the teacher formed three or four groups and had each group flip a coin one hundred times. At the end the three groups tended to show the statistical average even if one group was predominantly heads.

We may debate the semantics but our general viewpoint is the same. The phrase "balance out" and "the law of averages state" are pretty much the same thing here and well proven and accepted by society.

Orion

I see why you say this, but I dunno...

As you point out, nobody is going to inflict 1.67 wounds in a round. They'll do 1 or 2. Or whatever other integer value.

On the other hand, a confidence interval and average is always three values. With the Dakkafex, there's only 8 shots, and thus only 9 possible outcomes. But if there's 50 shots, there's 51 possible outcomes. Even if some of those are dismissably unlikely, there's still probably a good 20 or so that are all equally likely.

I like the confidence interval and average because you know that no matter how much shooting is going on, you've still got three values.

I am going to play in the ‘ardboyz tournament at Game Empire in Pasadena.

Darrian13 has shown them the wonders of the Godzilla list, and I will have to get by at least one of them. Last RTT there, I fought 3 Godzilla lists in a row….I went 2-1 only losing to Darrian13.

No bug list is undefeatable, but they are not easy to beat. Generally what I do is back up making sure that I keep the Dakkafexes out of range, while shooting the crap out of the little bugs that are advancing. After I take out the little bugs, I go after the big bugs with shooting and assault.

To many people on this board that have shown you in post after post that the GoDzilla list is not DUH BOOM you think it is.  Eldar player dropped the nid list, and taking out a Hive Tyrant in hth as well. I have done that with two squads of marines ( I lost two marines ).

2nd ed guy said his army never lost. He ran 117 model for his nid army and from everything I heard. He had never lost a game because of the layers you have to fend off to get to the back row. I looked at it and new, that I should be able to handle it. The end of the game my chaplin was kicking the snot ouf ot what was left on the board for the Nids. Granted I had very little left and he did as well, It was a VP win and I won the game.

Onlainari---------------Please re-read what I post about wounds bro. You really need to read before you post, that way you don't  mis quote somebody.

Both of you go roll 7 dice and see how many wounds you get?  Maybe you might see your MC die to bolter fire. I dont care to post my list because that is all you want. You want something you can use your math to rip apart. Math does not win games! Maybe on a computer game because it is base off math. P

 ((((failing to understand the SAFH Marine concepts that Ed himself helped develop?))))  I dont know about you, but when the WD hit the shelfs about combat squads. I was all over that, and I have been playing from that point on. Everybody has said that five men with a upgrade is a waste of time. Add a p gun and make it six or eight men ie even number is always better. Five men works great me, and if they redo the book it will only change my set up. I carry enough heavy to assault weapon to make four ten men tact squads easy.

If I am not mistaken Phyryxis, post after post talked about keeping the daks safe from hth. Now if you dont have that chance to keep them safe. What happens to them then bud, they die and that is something the list will grind to a halt if that happens.

I really dont think you understand set up for a full FOC chart. I have 17 units to place and each unit is placed the way I want to. I will burn you out of option and then set up what I want to kill after that. I have done it to many times. My dev squads are dirt cheap because they are made for placement. You have already started to set out your heavies. When I do get to vets, you are looking at str 10 lascannon, thou they are not str for you. I run a balanced list and you think its crap because its balanced. Mutli melta not tended too are still tank killers once in range. Once it really in range because you are trying to work other units on the board, its going to bake the tank.  Two of these have put many wounds on carnies and Tyrant in games. If the fact that you have so much to deal with, you can just snip here and snip there. You have to face an army of marines, an army that does not stop because you nock off a few lascannon. Guess you forgot about rapid fire plasma guns now, Oh wait gen charging. Nope they are already dead because you cant block ever path to the targets I wish to kill because of placement.

I have enjoyed your math thou, both of you. Yet you fail to understand the power of the DICE GODS!  Sniper dropped a blood thirster bud. The only shoot for the squad and it was the only guy. It was the last turn, and it had one wound on it. I was like what the heck, plank, dead, omg. YAAYYAYAY. Glory in dropping a Bloodthirster in the last round!

Could it be the new list needs a few wins to help people buy up nid product?  GW does things like that in order to spice up product. They did it with bikes did they not. You could also think that there are not that many SM players in that area of the country.

You have taken math and removed the spirt of the game. This is why you have place your army on the wall.

 

In 3rd end, I faced four MC maxed out with 64 hormies at 1500 points. Turn six was a Hive Tryant that killed two marines the whole game. Shock and ahhh baby cause this guy to freak out. Ya, he made a mistake but it was the raw power of the SM horde on the board. My 3rd game was vs MC with 4 maxed gen backing. Guy did not go over the hill to face the two dev squads. He went around the hill to the other side and face all the bolters instead. He got a few marines, and I got all four squads. When you put your army on the board, you are looking to freak somebody out. Dam, I have to face that.....

  You keep telling me your key unit is the Dakfex, and yet everybody on the board has talked about the hth factor.

When the day come that I get a chance to face this army at 1850 and I have lost the game. I will post everything, until as it goes nids have died each time to my list and prior list. So as of now, I have not lost a game because of my list.  Its not grand, it just a crap load of guys with guns, knifes and a good old 3 plus save.  Maybe you should try a horde Nid army with same save across the board. You matter how much fire power he has, he is still just ripping apart 5 plus saves. You still have chunch half to go and only one more turn.

 

Will talk later on,,,

 

Choas  vs Dak, Dak would still win Phy because the lascannon guy would still be shooting things that a lascannon shots. Why on earth would you waste a str 9 on a grunt.....

 

Posted By Tarval on 09/01/2007 9:58 PM

Yet you fail to understand the power of the DICE GODS!

You fail to read the goddamn math. I am taking the dice gods into account you moron.

All right, Tarval get back to us when you have won the preliminaries in the 'Ard Boyz tourny. Then we will see how you do at the semi's with your list.

After that you can certainly claim it is well balanced and adequate to all challengers. At the same token no one else will be able to claim you are off base because you can back up your words with deeds.

If you don't want to prove it in theory then prove it in reality.

I thought you've never played against Godzilla? I thought you've never lost?



OMFG... Dude, read what YOU post before you post it.

Half of it is incomprehensible nonsense.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? You NEVER pay attention to anything anybody else says, then you post incoherant gibberish yourself, crap we have to read ten times to even take a guess at what you're trying to say, and now you're demanding that we pay attention to what you say?



You're basing your tactics off of WD articles? That's awesome, dude.

What does "combat squads" even mean to you? Are you playing from the Dark Angels list? Or from the vanilla Marine list?



What are you even talking about? If I can't keep them safe? Why can't I? I don't have countercharge units anymore?

I give up, dude.

You're so belligerantly stupid, it's impossible to even communicate with you.

Got to give him credit where it's due though, he spelled my name right.

Posted By Phryxis on 09/01/2007 10:29 PM

Darrian13 has shown them the wonders of the Godzilla list, and I will have to get by at least one of them. Last RTT there, I fought 3 Godzilla lists in a row….I went 2-1 only losing to Darrian13.

I thought you've never played against Godzilla? I thought you've never lost?

That is my quote. He does not know how to quote people.


But as far as that quote goes, lets me do some explaining. I am not a local "game store hero" who is able to beat all of the regulars. If you look at my sig. below, you will see my record at the largest GW events. This year I am <st1:date month="11" day="2" year="2002">11-2-2</st1:date> against the best players in the country, and not just the people who come to my store.

  So I can say that I am a pretty good player. A Godzilla list played by someone who does not know what they are doing is very hard to beat. A Godzilla list played by someone who does know what they are doing is next to impossible to beat. And if you notice, I did lose to Darrian13 who is another top player. I would also like to point out that in the Adepticon Gladiator tournament (Which is the same battle points only format as the ‘ard boyz tournament+forgeworld) I was able to beat an army with 2 warhound titans, but my one loss was to a Godzilla list.

Here is where we know that your list is not that great. In the 2 GTs this year, Space Marines did not go very well, and the footsloggers I would imagine did even worse. But the Godzilla Nids did do very well.

You are right, the Godzilla nids did not win all of their games, but they won a lot more than they lost. And it is again important to know that armies at GTs are played by some on the best players around.

 

Oh, and to the rest of you, I get the impression that Torval is around 13-15 years old. Who else uses White Dwarf to get there tactics from?

Posted By Orion_44 on 09/01/2007 9:03 PM
The opponent had 6 fexes, 2 flying Hive tyrant, 2 squads of genies, and all the rest spine gaunts.

You do realize he was playing an illegal list, right?  Max 1 flying tyrant per list.

Actually no, I assumed this was okay as I faced him at a few tourneys with two flying tyrants. I don't live in Washington anymore so I won't face him now but I will let someone know.

Thanks. I don't have my nid dex as I am in the process of moving across the country and it is all packed up.

Orion

Some of us more casual players read the tactic articles in WD and take something from them. I don't think any1 reads them as the word of the Emperor, but they have helped me a bit in the past.

So Phryxis, how does it feel knowing you have now spent at least 6 pages trying to tell a guy that Zilla Nids is powerful, only to find out that he:

1) plays Dark Angels (and thinks combat squads are the greatest thing since sliced bread)

2) uses multi meltas, plasma pistols and power weapons with basic marines

3) reads white dwarf strategy articles

4) is oblivious to math and statistics

5) is incapable of writing out a coherent arguement/defense to support his claims

6) has a super secret awesome list that massacres everything!!!!!11 (and its probably fluffy to boot!)

7) is going to the 'ardboyz tournament and expecting not to get laughed out of the room. (god I wish I could go now)

You know, I have a distinct feeling that you're TRYING to make me cry...

Well...

It WORKED.... *runs off sobbing to gently cradle a Dakkafex*

I just want to say thank first off because I am at work killing time.  Also, it was almost to the end of my shift last night and I was trying to finish out the post. I am sorry that some of the words and spelling was mis-typed. I was typing as fast as I could because the other guy was ready to take over the shift.

Phryxis, You said you play 81-82 marines and yet you still have no clue as to how I play. If you know how marines work, then why do I have to explain my list to you over and over again? You should of already figured out what my list is?

I, am thinking that some of you have not played that long. Being is you don't know about the WD that talked about combat squads. This WD allowed you for the first time to buy combat squads. You no longer needed to TAKE TEN MEN SQUADS. How many times did a hth god like mob/unit slam into your ten man unit, and finish it all off with ease. There was no tactical article about combat squads on the page. It just allowed you to have five men and the area I played in required you to have the page. I cut out the article so that I could field them in my army. It was not long that I soon fielded five men in every unit.  

Phryxis, No I do not play the DA codex. Thou I have been thinking about returning to the DA chapter. I hated them in 3rd ed and went vanil because of the no fear rule. I enjoyed fleeing because it allowed me to blast that unit that just assaulted my unit. Worked like a charm as well, many time seeing a leader just up and bit it.

I take a lot of gear because people over look it. Well, until it bits them in the arsk when it hits their lines.  Its a well rounded foot slogging army. 

Every now and then I do pick up a WD, only if it has a lot of articles about 40k. I just would rather read up on 40k then warhammer, or LOTR.

THE ENEMIES OF THE EMPEROR FEAR MANY THINGS. THEY FEAR DISCOVERY, DEFEEAT, DESPAIR AND DEATH. YET THERE IS ONE THING THEY FEAR ABOVE ALL OTHERS. THEY FEAR THE WRATH OF THE SPACE MARINE!

Onlai, I would really like to get a chance to get to some of these event. Thou as of now I am building other things that mean more to me than 40k. Thou it would help if GW did not trash the DFW area over price wars. This alone killed the 40k gaming in my area for years. I dont know about you, but it was nice going to 24 to 30 man tournies. Thou that all changed when GW told the local owners to stop giving out 10 percent discount.

Blackmoor, I did not quote anybody via name. I only used text off a page to inform Phryxis that people said they did not have a problem with nids zilla.

Phryxis Yep, never played them.  I would bash your raeindg skills, thou smilpe mistake like that cost you the game.

Thank Orion 44, for pointing out how their math can go so far south its not even funny.

Orion 44 Said, "If you don't want to prove it in theory then prove it in reality." How do you prove something in theory via a list. Do you only prove a percent in theory or the whole thing. There are to many things to factor in a game then just math. We could set up shop and roll for the mission and it could be the mission from hell for the nids. I would still get you list is a joke from the boards. I have based my information off a few games, or the one game vs the mech eldar. I blasted that list so far back in time, it was not even funny.  It not that my list is grand, its because its basic. It does not matter what part you work on, its all the same.

Lets just look at how many MC will die a turn. I would say two MC on the first turn. After that, I would say about another two to three for the last few turns of the game. Planking MC in cover is the reason it would be that way.

Oh well, back to finished up a few models for the Ard Boys. I just hope I have the time to make the finals if I do get to the finals. AC armies are the bane for my army, thou I have played them a few times and won each time. Its just really hard to face something like that.

That would just be Grand to have Phryxis and myself in the finals for the Arb Boys. Clash of the Titans,

Haha two MC's on the first turn. You are a nutter.

I have never and I mean never lost more than one MC in a turn. Normally no one even finishes off one in a turn, they plink it a few times and have to finish it off next turn.

I seriously suggest you play some 40k instead of just making gak up.

Or perhaps you play on empty boards with no terrain and all your guns have infinite range, and ballistic skill 5 and twinlinked with rerolls to wound, and your opponent has to reroll successful saves.

I might not get to if you go and try to hide them all in terrian. Thou I did play on 90 percent terrian in my last game. Its not that I get all the shooting, its that I have so many lanes to shoot from. If you move you fall into another lane of shooting and so on.  Hell, I saced a tact lascannon unit for a Flying Hive Tyrant, got hte hive tyrant...

 

Daks have to be in range and if you are in range. You are going to face everything in my army. Anything out in the open will be dead. I guess once you see the army, you too will run and hide in the terrian. Trying to out shoot me with your 18" and 24" range beind 30 plus inches away.

Longshot, roll 7 dice will ya. Bolter fire get any wounds?

Posted By Longshot on 09/02/2007 9:13 PM
Or perhaps you play on empty boards with no terrain and all your guns have infinite range, and ballistic skill 5 and twinlinked with rerolls to wound, and your opponent has to reroll successful saves.

You mean that isn't how you are supposed to play?

If you roll 7 dice, 2.33 will miss, .77 will wound and .13 will wound an extended carapace fex. Nice try tho.

Zath, the seven dice are already wounds inflicted via bolter fire. So, what you are saying is that a Dak will take 2.33 wounds via bolter fire from seven wounds? Few more hits and he is dead, and now we will plank them with the ap gear,  Maybe another one dead?, or assault if I wanted to.

First off, let me apologize to everyone for responding to Tarval again. There's something magical about his posts that just demands attention.

Tarval: I can tell you have a hard time reading. I'm going to make things bold to help you pick out key points.



I have no clue how you play because you can't explain yourself. Seriously. LISTEN: What you type is almost totally impossible to make sense of. You need to understand that nobody knows what you're talking about. It may make sense to you, but it's barely English.

There's two main reasons I keep asking for your list:

1) To see if it's even legal.
2) It's incredibly insane that you won't post it.

You already admitted to have Multi-Meltas in it. That's all I need to know that you have no clue. Clearly you're not going to post the list. You're not man enough.



Are you living in the same reality as the rest of us?

What WD issue are you even talking about?

Marines have been able to take 5-10 man squads for the last two Codexes at least, and I don't feel like digging out anything older to see what it says.



Uhhhhm. Did you really just criticize my "raeindg" skills? Seriously? Dude, there are seven letters in the word "reading" and you managed to put five of them in the wrong place.

Somehow it's my fault that you don't know how to use quotes? Are you trying to make some kind of joke?

This is a quote that makes me think you're actually an elaborately crafted internet personality, meant to drive people like me insane.



Ok, WHY. WHY DO YOU SAY THAT? You can't explain yourself, you just make unsupported statements.

This is why the rest of us are using math. We can show that the shooting of a given list should be able to do a certain thing, based on statistical averages. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Of course if you don't play it right, it certainly won't... But when we make claims, we have statistics to back it up.

You don't seem to get it: Nobody is saying math wins games. What we're saying is that math gives the basic picture of what a model can do, so game winning tactics can be developed.

Do you follow sports at all? Do you do any betting on sports? Oddsmakers will look at the stats for teams playing, and set a points spread. They examine the stats in detail, and predict the outcome. Stats don't win sporting events, but they let you predict outcomes with more accuracy than just guessing.

Your version of prediction is just "The Patriots will beat the Colts 476 to 38!" No reason why. Plus so comically, retardedly wrong, that I can't restrain myself from mocking you, yet again.



What in the holy hell is "planking" anyway? Are you trying to say "plinking?" As in shooting small caliber firearms for fun? What does that have to do with anything?

I appreciate that you're trying to explain your reasoning, but I assure you, you're talking nonsense. To amend my previous quote, what you're saying is basically "the Patriots will beat the Colts 476 to 38 because Tom Brady is a bruckfindler, raise the roof!"

Seriously, dude, what the hell? You come in here talking like you're smarter than all of us, like we're the dumb ones for not getting your point, like you're too cool to bother reading our posts. Do you not have ample evidence in your daily life that you're an idiot? I mean, I promise, you are. There's no question about it. But don't people tell you this? Your boss? Your co-workers? Do they not get irritated with how dumb you are? Or have you just lifted so many weights that they're scared to tell you, because they think you might punch them to death or something?

Dumb people are a lot easier to deal with in real life. You can do small things to mock them. I'm sure he gets away with being dumb without people getting as frustrated with him as we are right now. Probably got dumb friends, if any.

Save yourself the white hairs, Phryxis, and just give up already. He's either a sock-puppet poster designed to annoy people, or a sincere poster who's simply too dense to be worth talking to.

My turn!

 

We should know what a good, foot-slogging, marine, SAFH should look like, but then you start to say things like Multi-melta, plasma pistols and power weapons and it confuses us. Not only that, but we all thought you are playing Dark Angels since you say that you use combat squads. Then you say you are playing vanilla marines, and we really don’t have a clue.

#1. People who have played a long time rarely read White Dwarf. It is just a marketing tool for GW to sell models, and has very little useful content. Sure some long-time players read it, but that is mostly for either nostalgia, or something to do when they are on the crapper.

#2. Vanilla Marines can’t take combat squads (that is another reason why we want you to post your list). There are only 3 armies that can: Dark Angels, Blood Angels and the new Chaos codex. I think you are reading the Blood Angeles codex in WD?

Never. No one takes 10 man squads. That is why almost everyone hates the new combat squads rule. Everyone has been taking 6 man las/plas squads.

Are you sure? Again, what White Dwarf, and what page lets vanilla marines take combat squads?

 

You can’t be both footslogging, and well rounded.

You need to use the quote function when you use other peoples writing, or everyone thinks that you said it. And here is how you quote some one: Before someone’s text you put ]quote[ and at the end of what they wrote you put a ]/quote[. But instead of using ][ in the example, you need to use [] (just turn the brackets around). If you do it right, it should put a box around the text that you are quoting so we know what you are responding to, and that it is not what you said, like I have done with all of your writing.

Since you will not post your list, no one knows on average how many TMC you can kill. But if you have enough lascanons and missile launchers, I can see you possibly taking down two.

Actually it all makes sense. Tarval's marines have a multi-melta and power weapon each. Surely that trumps Nidzilla...

Posted By Phryxis on 09/02/2007 9:51 PM

Phryxis Yep, never played them. I would bash your raeindg skills, thou smilpe mistake like that cost you the game.

Uhhhhm. Did you really just criticize my "raeindg" skills? Seriously? Dude, there are seven letters in the word "reading" and you managed to put five of them in the wrong place.

This is hands down the funniest thing I have ever read on a forum, and I used to hang out on the warcraft forums.

By the way, this guy seems to be using a lot of warcraft lingo like dps, mobs and the like.  Wonder if maybe he's done to much of the crack.....

Cogito

Posted By Phryxis on 09/02/2007 9:51 PM

Phryxis Yep, never played them. I would bash your raeindg skills, thou smilpe mistake like that cost you the game.

Uhhhhm. Did you really just criticize my "raeindg" skills? Seriously? Dude, there are seven letters in the word "reading" and you managed to put five of them in the wrong place.

You are better at gibberish -> english than me, I never was very good at foreign languages. I kept translating that as 'rending skills'

He clearly needs to improve his rending skills then. Longer nails perhaps?

To Tarval.

How many detachments are you using? Are you using the two troops and an HQ then onto the the next detachment 'loophole'? It could generate the firepower you need to claim the effect you want, but if so nids could do this too and do it a whole lot nastier.

Your master list that r0xx0rs over nidzilla doesn't exist, and you are hoping someone will post one which you will adopt and claim is just like yours. The trouble is noone will because we dont think it can reliably be done.

Hey everyone, the more that I read the more I realize the earlier comment about age is appropriate.

Tarval is most likely young and not very experienced. It seems that english may be his second language (and Kudos to you Tarval for what you do get right.)

Tarval you could benefit from a spell check. And again Thou means you, not though.

And one more comment on:



Not only reading but simple, the failure to pluralize mistakes, and the incorrect usage of thou. These are all those small details in real life that cause you to lose things like games.

Either Tarval is a comic genius or someone just smacked him with the irony hammer one too many times in the face.

Orion

Although there is some (twisted) enjoyment to be found in 8+ pages of  "Dakka VS Tarval", I have a big bug question of my own, but let's start with a noob alert:

Although I do think that I understand the basic concept of the nidzilla list, I have no actual experience with, or against it. Actually I don't have any notable tournament experience whatsoever (the bugs will be my first tournament level army, if I ever finish building and painting them...)

I understood from the useful part of this thread that at 1500 a choirzilla army with stealers does not have any room for raveners. Therefore I reasoned that, since my concept list does have stealers and raveners, I probably have skipped too many upgrades (only 1 tyrant guard, no implant attack and other upgrades for the tyrants and no 5th wound for the sniperfexes). Is having only 30 toughness 6 wounds enough at 1500 points?

The actual list:

Hive Tyrant (2 Scything talons,Winged, Toxin sacs, Flesh hooks, Psychic scream)           

Hive Tyrant (Venom cannon, Twin-linked devourer, Enhanced senses, Toxin sacs, Psychic scream, Flesh hooks)

Tyrant guard (lash whips and flesh hooks)

 

Carnifex (2 Twin-linked devourer, Enhanced senses, Flesh hooks)

Carnifex (2 Twin-linked devourer, Enhanced senses, Flesh hooks)

Carnifex (2 Twin-linked devourer, Enhanced senses)

 

6 Genestealers

6 Genestealers

           

Ravener            (Scything talons & Rending Claws)

Ravener            (Scything talons & Rending Claws)

Ravener            (Scything talons & Rending Claws)           

           

Carnifex (Venom cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced senses)

Carnifex (Venom cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced senses)

           

Zoanthrope (Psychic scream, Warp blast)

Zoanthrope (Psychic scream, Warp blast)   

Zoanthrope (Psychic scream, Synapse creature)         

 

Total    1500

I doubt this will work but would the new Chaos Termies stand a chance against Nidzilla if they did a combi-plasma deep strike with Abbadon?

I wulod jsut lkie to say tahnk all for the caht. I hvae eeoyjnd it tuhs far and I hpoe it keep ginog. A long time ago, I got this email from a friend. It talked about the mind and how the mind can still read the word even thou the center parts of the wrod are changed anourd. Tihs olny wrkos wtih wrdos taht hvae mroe tahn fuor lteerts. I hope this hlpes you udnsreatnd waht I was syanig aoubt radenig.

2nd ed WD is the WD that I am talking about. Way back in 2nd ed, you could not take combat squads. You had to pay for a full ten man squad. That WD allowed you to take just five men with one upgrade. It was then that I changed to combat squads.  In the day, 10 men was all that you could buy. It was really hard to just have troops in your army because the str of a character. The character would just charge across the board and smack into the squad. Thus taking out a good amount of points in your army.  They have really changed that format so that leaders are no longer that strong of the army.

six men las/plas is an MM squad, not a combat squad. A combat squad is five men with one upgrade which they have finally started to bring back to the game. I run combat squads with just basic upgrades in a vanil army. Granted you would not call it a combat squad because its just half of the unit. I call it a combat squad because that is the way is has been called before you started 40k, I take?

So, I told you my list before and I will say it again. FOC with 17 units at 1850 full of five men in each unit with a basic upgrade. My dev units run two upgrades because they can pick four item in a full unit. Lot of people hate the list and have called it chz-e/mm because of the units being five men. I have to inform them that I have a well balanced list and you just don't see it. MM is min/maxing a unit, my army is built around min/min the unit. If you add the gear up, you could easly have a DA codex. It does not fuction like a DA codex because of the FOC chart.

Leader, # 1

Leader plus a combat squad 5 men. # 2

Vet squad, # 3

vet squad, # 4

vet squad, # 5

Tact squad, # 6

# 7,8,9,10,11

Assault squad # 12

# 13, 14

Dev squad # 15

# 16 # 17.

Pick your upgrades and remember about placement when you do pick your upgrades. Not everything will be upgraded to your liking. Remember its not the sum of its parts but the whole of the list that makes it work. Each item bring another part into play. Each units allows another unit a tactical advantage. You have 17 units to place on the board and will burn almost any oppenet out of set up. This in turn allows you to take advantage of fire lines and to remove threats via infiltrate, and other forms of threats as well. Each item works with the other, thus allowing the whole to function better then the sum. There are even more tactics to this list that I could go into detail but then again most of it you can figure out.

When the WD hit the shelf, I about died because it allowed you a tactical advantage in the form of assault. You could lower you death ratio, in turn allowing you to finish off what just hit your lines. I no longer had to worry about the hth Tyrant from hell that tied up 10 men. When the Tyrant did hit my lines, he would kill the unit, or he would force them to fall back. When a small unit like this fell back, it allowed me to unleash hell into that unit that just assaulted it. Now combat squads started in 2ed, so I don't think this ED invented combat squads. He did however look at putting MM on the board. Thou a lot of people did MM as well, but you would take hit in the form of spot points award for it.

I have always talked in Gib Cogito, because we are on the internet. We use part of the word because the meaning is still intact. If you are new to the net, then these meaning will be hard for you to understand.

Blackmoor, I am sorry because I have looked all over and tried this so called quotes and have yet to have it work. maybes it because I am always on the board via this old computer at work.  If you have read up on my post, then you understand what I was talking about. Well balanced list that is pure footslogging can work and does work. My army only has so many heavy weapon in it, after that its assault weapons and onto hth.

Btw Blackmoor, I do enjoy the WD only if it has 40k in it. If has a lot of warhammer and or now LOTR in it. I tend to skip it unless it has something that I might want to read a few times. Yes, there are other things in the WD that I look at as well. How somebody might of based a model, how they used a color on an item. Hell, its better than painting a model to see what it looks like.  WD has a lot to offer if it falls under the subject I like. Then again it also gives you Ideas for the next model to make. 

Blackmoor Everybody is so set on six men with a lascannon and a plasma gun that they dont try to find another way to play. I myself have played many time vs a MM unit and just swamped it with men. Most of the people that play MM dont really play troop heavy. If they did that would change the game for me. Posting this information will change the game as well. People will read up and see that DA or BA all on foot is really not a bad army once it is all split up. I myself will have no problem changing my format to fit in the new SM codex. It will however change my set up because of less units to place. Thou it will allow me a few new options to play. I will be able to have four, five men dev squads with heavy bolters.

Back in 94 I picked up a tech marines because they required in 2nd ed to run trantullas. I also had Fabius Bile as well because I liked the model and used him for my warhammer undead army. Well I had the back pack left over and added that to the tec marine. I then used Fabius Bile gun item as my weilding tourch on my right arm. I also cut off some of the servitor's power arms and added it to the back pack. I wanted a tech Marine that looked like he had a lot of friggin work to do. People just loved the model and I have it posted on myspace as well.  I sometimes think that todays Tech Marine could of been founded via my tech Marine model. The world got around the world in the form of something, and somebody turned him into what he is today. Granted I have no use for him now because they just dont pan out like they use to. Thou I am thinking about taking a pure techmarine horde army. Like the novel I read awhile back from the 40k book line.

Myspace link cause it to space out real bad, thus I removed it and will just say that if you want to see the Tech Marine with a lot of work to do. Myspace and look for Walter Vaughn in Watauga, TX. You can see the pics of some of my other item I have as well. My new chaplin will be post in a bit once I finish up some of the add on item to him. He will still need to be based and painted....

There are a few other models as well that I am working on. Thou my new chapling will be posted soon nuff. I just ahh shocked at how he looks thus far. I cant wait to finish him up, but first I need to order some magnets.

Chew on the workings of the list, chew and look at what you can now field instead of what you have always fielded. You now have a new path to follow instead of what other have placed before you. I can see some of you already getting your codex out and pointing up a list following my format. You will find that armies are hard pressed to face this list once you understand the tactics. Almost everybody that you play for the first time will be ahh shocked out how many marines they have to hack down. How they have to focus a lot of their fire power in order to remove threats like a five man lascannon combat squad. Only to find that the Multi Melta that moved last turn is now in cripple range to open the tank with ease.

Few that I have talked with in the past just loved the idea of horde. Once guy even went all out with BA and pure troops. 900 +vets cost for just 60 men, 60 men that when they charge hit at str 5 and have int 5. Dont forget the power weapon/fist in the unit. Thou this has all changed because of the rhino rush being removed. This list use to be my toughest threat, being that he could get into my ranks with guys that saved just like me. He had the advantage of hth and I had the shooting.

Orion 44, I just wanted to say that I am sorry that my spelling and grammer are not up to par. I was never any good at spelling and grammer. I did not understand it because of the way it was presented to me. I hated english and found it a waste of time. If somebody has shown me the way with a book that I liked, then english would of had a whole new meaning to it. It was not until I was 19 that I found things that I liked. That time on I was changed forever. 

You talk about math, that this is the reason you list will work. That stats tell you that this will be the outcome.  I just want to inform you all that I have not lost a game. I have played a lot of armies many, many time. I have charged head long into the jaws of death only to pull out the win in the end. Four MC did not crush my list via a massive assault in the middle of the board. So why on earth would eight MC put a end to my list. I am looking at what I have faced and taking that into account. You have nothing that will tie my army up because your list is a shooting army. I look at the fact that my army was in hth and tied up and still was able to bring fire to the boards. I look at the fact that my basic weapon in my combat squad will be able to inflict wounds on your units. That if you do move into the kill zone to assault, you will only find a few men to hack down. After that I will burn that unit down, why because I have done it to many times. Math plus exp tells me that I have a really good chance of removing two a turn, and im able to handle this list.

How many times have you failed to rend a unit?  Rend is like watching an assault cannon heavy army try to bring down a Land Raider. Well, you got four rends from the gen and I lost four guys. My last guy died because he failed his save. I just lost my combat squad, and you have nothing to do now. Guess will just have to take out the unit of gens. It not like I talk about this as joke, its that it has happened to many times. I lost a combat squad and now you have just lost your gen unit. Far trade?, 90 points for a full unit of gens?

Well, I think this will do for now. I do hope we can keep chant n about the topic. I do hope you all understand that it is not that I am just pulling this out of my arsk. Its that I have done it to many times in the past. Three landraiders vs zilla is a joke, and I enjoyed doing what the zilla list does. All three landraiders died and on turn two and the game ended because he said it was pointless to play on. Walking termies over to my side was pointless to play on. The guy was correct, you know he was. He just did not expect something like this to pop up.

 

Thanks all, hope some of you enjoy the new tactics out of your new list. I know I have and the one reason I have simi posted it.

Uhhh...



Dear god.

Anyone up for taking a collection to fly this guy form DFW to Baltimore for the GT to see how his army does?

Out of curiousity why isn't Lysanderwing more popular in tournies? It seems like one of the more effective builds vs Nidzilla or Mech Eldar.

Lysanderwing is actually a pretty good army if played well. However most people don't equip their termies with heavy flamers in this list which is something that it would need against horde armies. Also those termies can't assault on the turn that they land. Many times they can be overwhelmed by just plain hormagaunts who get to charge them and spine gaunts who get off a full volley and then can assault can usually whittle a few terms out of a unit.

And as for this army vs. eldar, the eldar are often too mobile to have to worry more than one turn about all those termies facing rear armor or such things. In many armies having the things you need to kill show up where you don't have to chase them down can be an advantage to the eldar. Lastly many of the experienced mech armies will keep thier rear armor to the board edges until lysander arrives.

I have played against this army many times as one of my good friends plays this. He can win against most opponents a time or two until they get used to the list and then they can prepare for what he will do because it just has the one large trick to use.

Its rather like a nid choir list or fear of the darkness in that respect. Once you get used to what it can do it ceases to intimidate.

Orion

LOL. IF THEY WERE KING US ENGLISH WOULD BE SAYING 'GOD SAVE OUR GRACIOUS NECRONS' Which were not so....LOL

Nidzilla frigging owns Lysander. 24" range == one round of shooting before it's Dakkafex and -5Ld time and Ravener time.

One round of shooting is not enough against nidz in cover.

Here's the list that I have used effectively, time and again, to defeat NidZillas.  Please, by all means, do the math and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Pan-Fo

HQ:  Brainiaker w/ Acid Shot, Rend Remover, Winged Legs and Soupy Carapace  - 121

Elite:  3 Deathslicers w/ Sonic Facemaker, 2 x Pheromic Jawtrap - 287

Troops:  2 units of 8 x Buntblunders w/ 1 x Stompshot, 1 x Gasflare - 488

28 x Skittlybarbs - 140

Heavy Support:  Fluxtangous w/ Multi-Glazebeam Cannon - 190

2 x Thoraxbenders w/ Extra Dusters, Wattleblaster - 270

Total Points: 1496

Fluxtangous are so OP.

Dam link to myspace mested up my post. Oh well, thou I see the post has come to a close now. Darn, and I was thinking that I would hear some more stuff. Got a few things to take care of thus I have to run.

Posted By Iorek on 09/04/2007 10:28 AM
Here's the list that I have used effectively, time and again, to defeat NidZillas.  Please, by all means, do the math and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Pan-Fo

HQ:  Brainiaker w/ Acid Shot, Rend Remover, Winged Legs and Soupy Carapace  - 121

People who have done the math say that a Brainiaker has to be equiped with a Nebanian Corstar to be any good at killing MEQs.

Elite:  3 Deathslicers w/ Sonic Facemaker, 2 x Pheromic Jawtrap - 287

These are a great unit, and the Facemakers are worth every point.

Troops:  2 units of 8 x Buntblunders w/ 1 x Stompshot, 1 x Gasflare - 488

I don't really like Buntblunders. I think it is worth it to pay the extra 5 points to upgrade them to Suntblunders

28 x Skittlybarbs - 140

I have never been able to get Skittlybarbs to work for me. If they work for you, then more power to you. Mine normally fail their target identification check, and attack my own units. I guess I can buy them some Crax Antennas to help with the test, but then they start to get too expensive.

Heavy Support:  Fluxtangous w/ Multi-Glazebeam Cannon - 190

I like Flaxtangous because the Multi-Glazebeam Cannon can almost win you a game by itself.

2 x Thoraxbenders w/ Extra Dusters, Wattleblaster - 270

I like these units for holding objectives,  But as far as arming them goes, it really depends on what you fight. If you face a lot of infantry, I find that Coozcaters work better with the Extra Dusters. But if you fight a lot of Mech armies, you want to arm your Thoraxbenders with a Morak Dex to go with your Wattleblaster.

Posted By Blackmoor on 09/04/2007 11:50 PM

Posted By Iorek on 09/04/2007 10:28 AM

Heavy Support:  Fluxtangous w/ Multi-Glazebeam Cannon - 190

I like Flaxtangous because the Multi-Glazebeam Cannon can almost win you a game by itself.

Dude, youre a total noob if you think that crap works.

Better run the numbers again.

But what do I know? Youre the guy playing DA at the next GT... *snicker*

Cheh, another internet Pan-Fo clone. The 3/2 Deathslicer combo was originally posted at the Super Duper Forum, back in 06.

2 Buntblunders? I guess you've just given up on comp entirely, eh? Throw sportsmanship out while your at it, I can't believe there's someone who would kit their Brianiaker with Rend Removers. What was GW smoking when they wrote the Pan Fo codex?

How are you going to model the Wattleblaster?


So what did I miss, when did the Pan-Fo become officially "REVILED"?

Posted By whitedragon on 09/05/2007 10:50 AM
How are you going to model the Wattleblaster?


So what did I miss, when did the Pan-Fo become officially "REVILED"?

It started when Jervis Johnson wrote their 4th edition codex. The Pan-Fo became the powergamers choice since they made Iron Warriors look fluffy. With all of the cheesy combos, the army just about ran itself.  

Jervis took so much flack from the 40k community for overpowering them, that he swore to never again to write a codex that was very powerful. His next codexes were Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Chaos, so you can see for yourself the backlash over the Pan-Fo.  

I have not yet palyed against this Pan-Fo but based on what your saying I think my list can beat them easily. Why because of troops choices. I have six while others may have as few as two or not at all.

Last RTT played Pan-Fo sorta but because of time reasons there was only a draw thou I had a crushing victory. Thanks Dave! My troops choices walked into the valley of death an so much shooting came from them it wasn't even funny thou I had to luagh. Your arm needs Flux and Glaze to win but mine only needs troops. Tell me how are you can beat that bud?

Sorry to many people here this baord think Pan-Fo can't lose but they can where my troops never did! This is a fact that can't be ignored unlike maths and big talk about Glase that you cant even field in six troops. All the math you have wont make 10% more of wins out of anything and you can have that seven times if you want.

Great chat guys thax for I have a long shift tonite will post more then after get boils lanced.

That was so funny I nearly blew my drink out of my backside.

Can someone revile the link for the Pan-Fo codex please.

http://www.games-workshop.com/us/store/PanFo.asp

yeah somehow I dont think that link is good.

Posted By bebepaquito on 09/06/2007 3:52 PM
yeah somehow I dont think that link is good.

What are you talking about?  That link was awesome!  Mmmmm, pies....[drools]

Posted By bebepaquito on 09/06/2007 3:52 PM
yeah somehow I dont think that link is good.

Hey, it's totally work safe!

Unless you work for Weight Watchers.

I guess its time to say good bye to the topic. I have not checked the boards in a few days, because my email showed nothing. Well, I hope to face the list and see ya on the next topic....