http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12974

Well, that's a bit crap.

How can they do better if they are not updated and/or supported?

Specialist games are a lot of fun and pretty balanced (from what I can tell), but they don't even get mentioned in the White Dwarf any more...

Greets
Schepp himself

Damn straight Schepp. You'd think with the amount of space they try to waste, they could throw in a couple of articles on Specialist Games.

Posted By Schepp himself on 09/25/2007 9:06 AM
How can they do better if they are not updated and/or supported? 

Given how well balanced and designed the core games generally are, and how unbalanced and poorly designed most of the supplements have been, I'd think the answer would be self-evident.

"Originally posted by Sabbad at Warseer
I spoke to Andy Hall at Games Day UK on Sunday.

For the past few years, Specialist Games have had a release window every six months - a January release and a Summer release. The last of such releases was the Warmaster Araby release.

However, I have now been told that GW do not intend to release any more models for the Specialist Games. Unless GW starts doing well again, the Specialist Games suddenly become popular, or there is some massive change in demographic, GW will not be creating new Specialist Games models ever again."

Repost for the lazy

- Salvage

That really sucks ass

A lot of folks in my group are avid mordheim players and a lot of us have also been getting into BFG now too, guess that's the end of that.....

Necros: It doesn't have to be the end- the rules are all still there, for free, and the models are still available, or easily convertable.
I'm looking to eventually get into BFG as soon as I decide whether to go for Ork Pirates (yaaarrr) or a Waaagh Fleet.

At least they gave us a parting gift with the downloadable rulebooks. Download them now before they pull the website too.

I need to order some Redemptionists before Nov 5th it seems .

This is a real shame.

I still have a heap of BFG models to paint up and assemble as I've finally found other people who want to play (all GW staffers) and wanted to branch out by buying up some SM ships and some of the newer races like the necrons.

I'm not to fussed about no further rules but no new minis is awful.

Mordheim consistently pumps out models that are better than their WHFB counterparts and I use them in alot of my armies.

They're not discontinuing the current range, they're just not making new models. Most of the games should do fine, aside from Epic. Epic has only Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Chaos models available (and damn few Chaos).

This stinks. I was really hoping that they would release Tyranids, Necrons, etc. for Epic.

Posted By Pariah Press on 09/25/2007 4:16 PM
They're not discontinuing the current range, 

Yet.

Next time GW reviews their catalogues, though, you can pretty much bet that models for systems they are no longer supporting will be the first to go...

I was just at the Glen Burnie Bunker and they knew nothing about this. As for new products they couldn't say but they know they are still going to carry the full range of current products.

Orion

This would be the exceptionally perfect time for them to reconsider their aversion to outsourcing. Lease out the IP, and let somebody else pick it up, with GW getting a percentage cut. No work for them, money coming in, games having proper support again.

-Hans

Posted By Hans on 09/25/2007 6:09 PM
This would be the exceptionally perfect time for them to reconsider their aversion to outsourcing. Lease out the IP, and let somebody else pick it up, with GW getting a percentage cut. No work for them, money coming in, games having proper support again.

-Hans

What GW give up IP rights on anything.  I don't think so even if it would be a good business move.  I guess I had better figure out what parts and models I want from Specialty games and order them before they shut down the whole range.

No, not give up the IP, but license other folks to use them. You can fully protect your IP while still allowing others access to it. They've done it in the past with Armorcast, they currently do it with all of the computer and console games. Why not allow somebody a chance with Blood Bowl and BFG?

I'm surprised you're all surprised. This has been official for quite some time. In April when Jervis talked at Adepticon about how Specialist was done it was already old news.

Posted By morfangdakka on 09/25/2007 6:37 PM

Posted By Hans on 09/25/2007 6:09 PM
This would be the exceptionally perfect time for them to reconsider their aversion to outsourcing. Lease out the IP, and let somebody else pick it up, with GW getting a percentage cut. No work for them, money coming in, games having proper support again.

-Hans

What GW give up IP rights on anything.  I don't think so even if it would be a good business move.  I guess I had better figure out what parts and models I want from Specialty games and order them before they shut down the whole range.

  They license out their IP to video game developers all the time.  I bet a small-time operation could remain profitable making Epic miniatures. 

  Of course, the "Big Secret" (shhhh!) is that there are several companies making 6mm scale sci-fi figures already, many of which work very well for Epic.  Of course, I would prefer to have Official Models, myself. 

Looks like GW is digging their hole a little deeper once again.  Good thing that they let the ash wastes rules come out before pulling the plug on SG.

Posted By yakface on 09/25/2007 8:36 PM

I'm surprised you're all surprised. This has been official for quite some time. In April when Jervis talked at Adepticon about how Specialist was done it was already old news.

It was news to me. I guess GW didn't really think it was that important that it warranted, you know, an official announcement or anything. How ironic that today, I accidentally ruined my E:A rulebook when my packed lunch container sprung a leak and dripped tomato sauce on it.

Surprised, however, I ain't. It was only a matter of time, after all. The entire "Specialist Games" endeavor was doomed to fail from the start. It was nothing more than life support for dying systems,  To have kept it as a viable, living product line would have taken GW a lot more than they were willing to give.

Seems this old conspiracy theory just proved right... It was written what, two years ago?

Rest In Peace, Specialist Games.


It's hard to swallow when you know that back in 1995, Epic line alone was making 10% of GW profits.

A very interesting read, and quite correct I am sure.

Once LoTR goes away there will only be two games on offer in GW shops.

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 09/25/2007 10:56 AM
"Originally posted by Sabbad at Warseer

However, I have now been told that GW do not intend to release any more models for the Specialist Games. Unless GW starts doing well again, the Specialist Games suddenly become popular, or there is some massive change in demographic, GW will not be creating new Specialist Games models ever again."

I wonder how the frag they expect the game to do well again, or become popular when there is nothing from the GW arena. and since GW gamestores don't allow games of non-supported GW games, it's a double whammy.

I am bummed now.

Posted By two heads talking on 09/26/2007 5:56 AM

I wonder how the frag they expect the game to do well again, or become popular when there is nothing from the GW arena. and since GW gamestores don't allow games of non-supported GW games, it's a double whammy.

I am bummed now.

I'd say that's just their way of leaving a little "hook" for established players as fake incentive for their continuing to buy. GW warehouse still has a bunch of unsold Epic blisters, after all.

I just need to keep my eyes open for the Warmaster clearance sale. I love Warmaster, but it is ridiculously expensive.

Or, you could buy any number ofthe relatively inexpensive 6-10mm fantasy minis that exist. Take a walk on the TMP side.

Too bad...I was planning on trying to start a Necromunda campaign in my area.

I think I'm going to cry.

well at least bloodbowl doesn't need any thing to keep it from rolling. hell you can make your bloodbowl team from pretty much anything.

I hope Forge World will keep making their BFG and Epic stuff. I always wanted to pick up their Tau stuff for both those games even if just for display.

Posted By Elusive71 on 09/26/2007 1:49 PM
I hope Forge World will keep making their BFG and Epic stuff. I always wanted to pick up their Tau stuff for both those games even if just for display.

  Yeah, I hope that Forgeworld will pick up the slack with Epic.  Some Chaos daemon engines and such would be nice.  They've come out with a bunch of new Epic-scale flyers and buildings recently (for Aeronotica Imperialis) so they might do other stuff, too.

I know GW is stuck with several games from 5+ years ago (before LOTR filled the schedule) but they are consistently well written rules, the players love them, alot of the models are hella cool (although like all GW lines there are some major lemons in there).

Problem for GW is that limited support = small sales and as the time since release keeps moving out the number of new players dwindles.

I'd be happy for the rules sets and the models to be available online (its the only place we can access them in Oz anyway) to fill out what I need.

This is "the suck."  I knew it was going to happen sooner rather than later, but that doesn't make me less dissapointed or angry.

Specialist Games were/are some of the best games GW had going, and I'm sad to see that GW is flushing them down the toilet.  I mean, that's what they've been doing, but it looks like it's getting closer to end.  I wonder when it will all get pulled completely.

It will be interesting to see how GW do with just two games to sell.

Umm... three games. Remember? Bubble of the Scapegote?

BYE

Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 09/26/2007 4:57 PM

I'd be happy for the rules sets and the models to be available online (its the only place we can access them in Oz anyway) to fill out what I need.

Aye, I'm hoping that "specialist games is gone" just means no more new stuff and not total erasure of the online content and sweet models.  Though with the changes to mail order, who knows if much SG will remain after the great purge ...

- Salvage

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 09/27/2007 3:30 AM
Umm... three games. Remember? Bubble of the Scapegote?

BYE

I assume that Bubble of the Scapegote will continue to wither on the vine, until the licence expires and they have to scrap or firesale everything left in stock.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 09/27/2007 6:21 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 09/27/2007 3:30 AM
Umm... three games. Remember? Bubble of the Scapegote?

BYE

I assume that Bubble of the Scapegote will continue to wither on the vine, until the licence expires and they have to scrap or firesale everything left in stock, and all the people who complained about the figs swoop in and buy them at ridiculous discounts for other games.

FYT.

It sucks, but Yak's right, we should have seen the writing on the wall. 'Tis a real shame. Thankfully I downloaded all the Mordheim and BFG stuff I wanted before the death.   

Real shame indeed, and didn't they just release some AdMech ships for BFG?

Posted By Balrog of Morgoth on 09/27/2007 6:41 PM
Real shame indeed, and didn't they just release some AdMech ships for BFG?

Yep. I wonder who was pushing to get them out the door while there was still the chance.

Oh well. Maybe the gap will be filled by Forge World.

I've love to see new Eschers and Cawdors done in the same quality as the recent Krieg line. They already do Tau and Grey Knight BFG, so they could expand there too.

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 09/27/2007 5:21 AM

Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 09/26/2007 4:57 PM

I'd be happy for the rules sets and the models to be available online (its the only place we can access them in Oz anyway) to fill out what I need.

Aye, I'm hoping that "specialist games is gone" just means no more new stuff and not total erasure of the online content and sweet models.  Though with the changes to mail order, who knows if much SG will remain after the great purge ...

- Salvage

  Rick Priestley said, in his announcement, that the SG lines would be almost completely unaffected, aside from bitz.

And that announcement came before this one.

Sorry, but we've been here before with other companies (FASA, anyone?). Thing is, there ain't no GW Fanpro waiting in the wings to take over. We cannot be sure of its fate.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 09/28/2007 12:55 AM
And that announcement came before this one.

Which one?

Y'know, the other one, before the other one, in that place, with the guy, who did that thing.

You remember.

BYE

As the guy who does the thing I can vouch for that.

Posted By syr8766 on 09/27/2007 7:28 AM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 09/27/2007 6:21 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 09/27/2007 3:30 AM
Umm... three games. Remember? Bubble of the Scapegote?

BYE

I assume that Bubble of the Scapegote will continue to wither on the vine, until the licence expires and they have to scrap or firesale everything left in stock, and all the people who complained about the figs swoop in and buy them at ridiculous discounts for other games.

FYT.

It sucks, but Yak's right, we should have seen the writing on the wall. 'Tis a real shame. Thankfully I downloaded all the Mordheim and BFG stuff I wanted before the death.   

Well yes, to those of us that follow specialist games it has been obvious for a long while, even 4 or 5 years ago when they started using their trainee sculptors on a lot of the minis. It was confirmed when they couldn't even stick to the hectic release schedule (one release from any one of the specialist games each six months, so each game gets 1 new thing per 3 years), but this was the first "official" news that I saw, though I gather they announced it at another convention before this.

Veteran wargamers don't tend to stop buying stuff. If they ever "finish" an army or a period (e.g.Ancients) they start something else. And very often, after a few years off, they return to the first army or period and do something new with it.

If GW are worried that veterans do not buy enough new stuff from their offerings, it's because they do not offer enough variety and new stuff to let vets hop from one game to another. Rather than can the specialist games they ought to expand them.

You all shouldn't be suprised.
They are running out of low level lackeys to fire, stores to close, and game developers to let go.

Soon enough that Jervis will be able to pay the game development staff with cookies and milk.

As for Necromunda, I have most everything of the game, so if they want to be stupid, I'll get the stuff painted up and start a Necro club easily letting people set up squads and fighting skirmish combat using the well worn rulebooks and scenery that I have in abundance.

One good thing I can say about GW is that the City scape buildings are amazing and there are endless amounts of possiblities with the sets.

Jervis fiddles as GW burns.

Posted By jfrazell on 09/28/2007 4:09 AM
As the guy who does the thing I can vouch for that.

Ewww that sounds Yucky. Malfred should be alerted.

Posted By Grot 6 on 09/28/2007 3:07 PM

Soon enough that Jervis will be able to pay the game development staff with cookies and milk.

Jervis pays the development staff?

That seems a little odd for a line developer. I hear he's a nice guy, but that's really taking generosity to a new level.

I'd expect the development staff to be paid by Kirby, or more directly through accounting.


It's also a little silly to blame this on Jervis. His involvement was one of the things that kept Specialist Games going. The fact that SG died after he left might just indicate that it was his involvement that kept it going, rather than that he plotted to destroy it.

Of course. Seeing that soon enough the development staff will consist of Jervis's kid.

And for blaming Jervis, Of course I do. He left the Speciaist gamers and no one else at GW is up to filling the task. Obviously its the result of thier financial troubles, and I can go one furthur that GW will be cutting whatever they can to save the stockholders, and keep the illusion that they are actually making money.

Losing the Specialist games arm of GW is about as bright as them not consolidating and regrouping thier oh so many related companies. Don't worry though, Im sure when they continue to bleed cash, they are going to be cutting even more. Sabertooth next? Forgeworld? we shall soon see. of course the holiday season might save them for five minutes more, but after that, they can continue to look for more cash saving cuts.

So basicly We are left to reson that Jervis is now the so called brain behind GW, how small that it is. Shouldn't it be obvious that Kirby is only in the corprate seat? He doen't have a creative bone in his body. If he did, he would have actually had a purpose to staying with GW then just window dressing and dolling out a well manicured hand every now and then.

Go ahead and look at the spreadsheet. Its not a plot, its buisness.

Posted By Grot 6 on 09/29/2007 11:43 AM
So basicly We are left to reson that Jervis is now the so called brain behind GW,

Er, no.  We are not.  You may be left to reason whatever you like, but please don't lump the rest of us into your delusions. 

Ha.

Come back with something better then a one liner.

I'm not the one who killed the golden goose, banking all my cash on Apocalypse and shelling out hard earned coin on what is basicly one or two weak designers jacked up codex. I'm not the one systematicly gelding the game system, then scratching my head to figure out why people are pissed and arn't buying shlock.

Go call someone else names, I have the Financial Wizards of GW to fall back on and see how they are cutting thier own throats.

These jerk off's smart play would have been to rethink the skirmish line, retool the Specialist games to INCLUDE the Bits and conversions, and then continue to evolve MORE smaller scale one up games.

Here's a couple more examples of thier thinking...

Epic- Apocalypse is basicly 28 MM epic. The game has already been out, why in the world would I want to pass up an oportunity to sell more models at a rational scale? Someone who would buy 5,000 US dollers worth of space marines would easily buy a few hundred more of a chapter.

BFG- The game is large scale space combat. Man o War in space. I won't point out that Man o war was a pretty good game, and suffered from neglect, but BFG is its twin unloved sister. As with Mighty Empires, the game is a good springboard for campaigns, has a variety of models, and almost as soon as it came out was shunted to the side.

Necromunda- By far the best small scale combat system that came out, the 2d edition Necromunda has to me been the most fun. It didn't lump my figures into convienience. It let me do pretty much what I wanted. The new figures were in between, and in my opinion they enhanced an already good game. Pushed off to attempt to wither, but then was given some love and came back, disfunctional with the second printing.

Gorkamorka- Orks +buggys +suck rules = always destined to fail. Gorkamorka had a great springboard to jump off of, too bad they didn't take it a little more seriously. One of GW's best Coulda Shoulda Woulda moments. Orks... Orks are coming out, the vehicle range for them was really the cats meow, and the conversions... Gobsmasha, Bubblechucka, Spleenrippa. The vehicles sell themselves. Too bad you won't get to see a 28mm version. Stick with your regurgitated bikes and trucks. >  (How many years has it been for that codex again?)

Etc- GW has always brought small scale games out, pushed them for a three or four month window, then kicked them to the curb. Not the way to make money, not the way to keep enduring fans, and surly not the way to run a buisness. Is it any wonder they continue to wring thier hands and wonder why?

Go ahead and prove me wrong, GW only has a handful of people left to pin the blame on, 2 in particular. They canned or drove away everyone else and are left with the good little todies.

Of course I could be wrong and its everyone elses fault that they continue to come out with crap.

Nice rant (by which I mean it's one we've all seen 40,000 times before), but there's nothing in there that supports the notion that JJ is the ultimate brains behind the operation, which is what you claimed.

Yeah! And i didn't call you names, either!

It's not a plot, no. Nor is it a very well-run business.

The problem is, of course, that poorly run business often translates to making difficult cuts, which are in turn seen as just another manifestation of poor business. This cycle of desperation has undermined many software companies and the like, but for companies as dependent on perception and fandom as GW, they can be particularly bad.

Ultimately, I think they're flailing to find a way out of the hole, and they've come up with a nice smorgasbord of ideas, especially Apocalypse, and embarked on a very definable philosophy of design (balance and competition, known to many as bland-ing). While doing so, they've made missteps -- and this is probably one. However, the nice thing about IP is that it is never really, truly dead. The Specialist stable of miniatures is going to be in indefinite hibernation of new products to save cash -- but GW still owns the 2ed 40k rules and the word "Necromunda," so someday when the green balance sheet may allow, it'll come back. I hope.

And as far as the moral outrage in Grot's post....I save that kind of depth of emotion for Mynamar and politics. He should as well.

-Adso

And for people who are smarmy about their iPhones.

I HATE THEM SO MUCH.


Well said. Personally I think GW did a reasonable amount of stuff to keep all of the Specialist games alive. Enough to know when it isn't working. It can't be a big money-maker, so it's getting the axe. Probably a good business decision, even if I'd like to see the stuff knocking around.

Is it simply a coincidence that the decline of what we now call the specialist games came around the time of the rise of clix games? People seem to think that if GW only supported these games more, people would play them, but there could be an underlying cause behind their lack of popularity.

Assuming you're paying full retail, the cost to enter a SG was about $40-$100, weighted to the lower end. Only BFGand epic were really at the higher end. The thing is, that'll get you started in most clix games, which are faster to learn, don't need to be painted, and have a collectible air to them

I don't think it's the magic bullet, but it was probably a factor. Besides, GW can support the hell out of a product range and still not make it popular, look at LOTR.

Posted By BrotherAdso on 09/30/2007 8:44 AM
It's not a plot, no. Nor is it a very well-run business.

The problem is, of course, that poorly run business often translates to making difficult cuts, which are in turn seen as just another manifestation of poor business. This cycle of desperation has undermined many software companies and the like, but for companies as dependent on perception and fandom as GW, they can be particularly bad.

Ultimately, I think they're flailing to find a way out of the hole, and they've come up with a nice smorgasbord of ideas, especially Apocalypse, and embarked on a very definable philosophy of design (balance and competition, known to many as bland-ing). While doing so, they've made missteps -- and this is probably one. However, the nice thing about IP is that it is never really, truly dead. The Specialist stable of miniatures is going to be in indefinite hibernation of new products to save cash -- but GW still owns the 2ed 40k rules and the word "Necromunda," so someday when the green balance sheet may allow, it'll come back. I hope.

And as far as the moral outrage in Grot's post....I save that kind of depth of emotion for Mynamar and politics. He should as well.

-Adso

 

Great post. 

I really hope Apoc is big.  Partly, as I want to see GW continue to exist, and also I would like to encourage them to develop/design on this path for the future.

Posted By Polonius on 09/30/2007 9:59 AM
Is it simply a coincidence that the decline of what we now call the specialist games came around the time of the rise of clix games? ...

...

...

Probably yes.

I have never even seen a Clix game but judging from web sites they are a combination of "collectable", pre-painted, and pick up and play elements. None of these appeal to veterans. They are very much n00bs and lightweights appeal because they don't take a lot of time and effort to get into.

GW need to produce more specialist games to maintain the interest of veterans. They should also be exploring games outside the WH universe. They have a huge investment and overhead in studios, distribution, retail and manufacturing. What they need is attractive product to push through. It doesn't take a huge effort to design the idea and rules of a game. The production and marketing is a lot more investment and that is where GW have a lot of strengths.

My inclination is to assume Apocalypse will succeed.

I don't know why it would, I think it's a horrible idea on so many levels, but recently I've seen ton of people playing big games, so I have to assume they're into it.

When I sat down and figured it out, I decided I probably spend a good 2-3 hours on every single model I paint. And that's just the rank and file guys. So, 40K is already asking me to pull dozens of hours of my work off the table every round. Now they want to put out a game that takes days of my work off the table per round? Me no think so.

For me, the logical scope change in 40k would be to go to a smaller scale game. More detail on the individuals and their gear. Maybe a segue into an RPG format.

I guess that just doesn't work for GW. At this point, I'm guessing they've been around long enough, and become bloated enough, that they have to sell a lot of stuff to remain in business. I've heard it said that businesses either grow or die, so the small scale, "only need two dozen models to play" days are probably gone, and not coming back.

Posted By Phryxis on 09/30/2007 1:21 PM

For me, the logical scope change in 40k would be to go to a smaller scale game. More detail on the individuals and their gear. Maybe a segue into an RPG format.

I guess that just doesn't work for GW. At this point, I'm guessing they've been around long enough, and become bloated enough, that they have to sell a lot of stuff to remain in business. I've heard it said that businesses either grow or die, so the small scale, "only need two dozen models to play" days are probably gone, and not coming back.

  I think that if Apocalypse fails, they will try making a small-scall 40K Skirmish game.  Probably a sort of cross between Necromunda and the current 40K rules (or the 5th edition rules, as they'll probably be out by then). 

<nod> I think Apocalypse is a nod towards those who have either collected a ton of models over many years and want to put them all out there at once, or those with the parental/personal disposable income to buy kilostupids of models, and don't give a fig about painting 'em, just having a beer with the boys and yelling "WAAAGH!"

These are both excellent, indispensible groups. I like them both quite a lot. But I have not the time, money, or inclination to belong to either of them. Hence, a "universalized" version of Necromunda would bring people like myself more firmly into their grasp.

Going back to my earlier post, though, it's a business. And they (and earlier posters) are right to note that dozen-model games are not the big mondey makers that company-of-marines games are. If only GW didn't see them as mutually exclusive, we would be better off...perhaps once they feel more financially comfortable, they'll come around.

-Adso

BrotherAdso you are right.

GW's strategy only makes sense for people who have been brainwashed into thinking that GW is the whole tabletop game hobby. These people (if they exist) are easily persuaded to buy big games if there aren't small games available.

The problem is there are tons of games of all scales outside GW. If GW do not provide some kind of rivals, players who don't choose to "supersize" to Apocalyse will be driven away.

Kilkrazy has a point. For example, Apocalypse, and by extension GW, offers nothing to the dedicated Epic aficionado. It's a completely different kind of game.

To use an analogy, Epic is bridge, Apocalypse is 12-player no-limit texas hold'em with a booming television announcer and infinite credit at the bar.

Apocalypse is a kind of gambling, where you take risks, lose big, win big, have a few drinks, eat pretzels, hold a conversation, etc. Epic, at least to me, is more of a puzzle, where you have clearcut objectives, a limited set of tools for solving them, and where a few minor mistakes can cost you the game.

Mind you, these are perceptions. I've played one game of Apocalypse and half a game of Epic, and looking to play a lot more of both in the future. Because some days, you just want to yell "Death or Glory!" at the gaming table and not feel stupid about it even though you knocked over someone's landspeeder with a silly hand gesture (sorry about that, hope you found that heavy bolter), and on others, you'd rather engage in a trying battle of wits with the opposing general.

Define reasonable?

The bring outa game, support it for 3-6 months, then assigning it to purgatory and never to be seen in WD again, followed by removing all the specialist type models from the stores isnt exactly what I call reasonable....

If you want it to succeed, you have to give it some serious support. Doing it half assed isnt going to see it make money.

Many of them are good transitional games. Low figure games to lure people in. Gods know its how I got into the game, and a few others.

And yet that's exactly what GW did for 10 years before Fanatic/Specialist, and it seemed to work pretty well. GW was WHFB and 40k, with a rotating third game. Release Blood Bowl/Space Hulk/Man o' War/Necromunda, support it for a couple of years (never 3-6 months - every game had at least a year of support), and when sales dip pull it for the next game. That seemed to work OK as a business model.

It was nice of Jervis to try keeping everything alive all the time for fans like me, but it couldn't have made much money. And conceptually, a lot these games are just small-scale. There's only so much you can do with new ideas. What HASN'T been made into a Mordheim gang? (Uh...have we done Undead Amazon Treasure Hunter Pit Slaves yet?).

So I define reasonable as, "given our constraints on studio resources and shelf space, we tried to keep smaller games alive but not enough people bought them so we're not going to do that any more." Seems reasonable to me.

I think that's where GW ought to head whether Apocalypse succeeds or not. Game-design-wise (nice word) 40k is stuck: is the basic element a unit or a figure? The army lists make it seem like every figure counts, but that's not true. At the point levels people play 40k is a game of units - this unit is a powerfist delivery system; this one is a las/plas firebase; these 1000 Sons are the tax I pay to get an Aspiring Champion. Too many dudes are just filler.

The rules should be rewritten to reflect a unit-level game. IMO they should be less fiddly. Less in-unit variation, more army level rules, more unit-level rules, and fewer model-level rules. Simpler <> dumber, and fiddly <> sophistimacated. Simpler systems can be plenty challenging (Warmachine, Flames of War) and are easier to balance to boot. I think they're headed in that direction for 40k with the new army lists and with Apocalypse.

Which would leave the field wide open for expanding the Kill Team rules into a genuine skirmish-level game. Big fat book, shiny art, tons of loopy mob variants, a campaign system. You'd have skirmish-level 40k and army-level 40k, and not the current rules which are kind of stuck between both.

To me GW don't have to keep refreshing every single Specialist game for ever. Some work well as a game in a box without additions (Space Hulk) while others benefit from expansions. But there is a limit. What can be added to Blood Bowl now? It's been out nearly 20 eyars. Surely the rules have been perfected and all the figures you could possibly need are done.

What GW should do is put out some more games that aren't slight variants on 40K and WHFB. Cities Of Death is a good expansion for 40K but does little to attract non-40K players.

Posted By hubcap on 10/01/2007 7:36 AM

I think that if Apocalypse fails, they will try making a small-scall 40K Skirmish game. Probably a sort of cross between Necromunda and the current 40K rules (or the 5th edition rules, as they'll probably be out by then).

I think that's where GW ought to head whether Apocalypse succeeds or not. Game-design-wise (nice word) 40k is stuck: is the basic element a unit or a figure? The army lists make it seem like every figure counts, but that's not true. At the point levels people play 40k is a game of units - this unit is a powerfist delivery system; this one is a las/plas firebase; these 1000 Sons are the tax I pay to get an Aspiring Champion. Too many dudes are just filler.

The rules should be rewritten to reflect a unit-level game. IMO they should be less fiddly. Less in-unit variation, more army level rules, more unit-level rules, and fewer model-level rules. Simpler <> dumber, and fiddly <> sophistimacated. Simpler systems can be plenty challenging (Warmachine, Flames of War) and are easier to balance to boot. I think they're headed in that direction for 40k with the new army lists and with Apocalypse.

Which would leave the field wide open for expanding the Kill Team rules into a genuine skirmish-level game. Big fat book, shiny art, tons of loopy mob variants, a campaign system. You'd have skirmish-level 40k and army-level 40k, and not the current rules which are kind of stuck between both.

  This is very well-put, and I entirely agree with you.  I've been working on a unit-level 40K game for my gaming group, and trying to work up to doing a streamlined version of 40K-as-we-know-it (perhaps borrowing some elements from Epic Armageddon).  I'd certainly prefer it if GW did all of the work for me, as writing these things takes forever.

Doubtful.

Looking over WD pre-3rd edition saw WD articles of the various side games sprinkled throughout WD.....months or years after.

This run and dump thing is fairly new. I can find epic and MoW articles and Space hulk ones as well sprinkled in long after thier intital release.....again, pre-3rd.

@Hubcap: absolutely. I would play those games, and 40k needs them desperately. Perhaps that's where they're going with the Jervisification of the game. An army level game that's really meant for tournament play, with minimal options, and a skirmish level game designed for scenarios/campaigns.

Of course, I'm starting to reach the point of rejecting whole slews of GW-think, including the notion of points, so I might be the wrong person to support you.

Posted By syr8766 on 10/01/2007 7:41 PM

Of course, I'm starting to reach the point of rejecting whole slews of GW-think, including the notion of points, so I might be the wrong person to support you.

Jervis has been rejecting points for years.  Take a look at the Epic Armageddon book.  He practically begs you not to use the army lists outside of tournament games.

Posted By Phryxis on 09/30/2007 1:21 PM


For me, the logical scope change in 40k would be to go to a smaller scale game. More detail on the individuals and their gear. Maybe a segue into an RPG format.

That's already coming out in February.

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/01/2007 7:56 PM

Posted By syr8766 on 10/01/2007 7:41 PM

Of course, I'm starting to reach the point of rejecting whole slews of GW-think, including the notion of points, so I might be the wrong person to support you.

Jervis has been rejecting points for years.  Take a look at the Epic Armageddon book.  He practically begs you not to use the army lists outside of tournament games.

No points means the only way to make sure things are fair is to buy,
I mean bring EVERYTHING to the motherluvin' table.

Fiddling around the edges of 40K and WHFB does not address the core problem (IMHO) that GW shops will soon only have two games in them.

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I dunno if Apocalypse is supposed to be a substitute for Epic, but it kinda feels like it.

I was speaking to the Forgeworld guys, at their open day asking if they will make us an Imperator Titan to stop us paying silly prices on Ebay for one (not to say Forgeworld price won't be silly). There response was that they cannot make Epic stuff, due to the time spent on designing an Epic model, does not bring in as much profit, as the time spent designing a 40K model.

They went on to say that as long as the Aeronautica games are generating profit an interest, that will be the only Epic scale models you can buy. If they can link a model to that game, they will make it.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

Posted By hubcap on 10/02/2007 6:44 AM

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

I think they need a limited release once a decade or so to preserve the copyright anyway. Not sure of the details.

Posted By Asmodai on 10/02/2007 6:47 AM

Posted By hubcap on 10/02/2007 6:44 AM

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

I think they need a limited release once a decade or so to preserve the copyright anyway. Not sure of the details.

Which brings us to Space Hulk.... *looks at watch*  Yep, the timing is right. There were some strong rumours that it would be out this time next year from some people in the know.

I REALLY hope this gets either re-released or updated soon.

I know its not really a specialist game, as it needs no support, but this game is timeless. The perfect gateway drug into 40K. More importantly, alot more fun than normal 40K as well.

Posted By hubcap on 10/02/2007 6:44 AM

Are some things too iconic to just disappear out of the Warhammer/40k lexicon?

BFG- they constantly talk about fleet battles.
Blood Bowl- this thing has been around for over a decade. The cup, etc, are iconic.

I agree. Those are also two of the better games. But GW could always release them, pull them, then re-release them like they did before with third games.

as for longevity, i would have to say, bloodbowl (since 1985 or so)

space hulk (since before moses)

and talisman (since before adam)

there are plenty of others, but each of these had at least 3 revisions and seperate releases.

  Andy, the current face of Fanatic, has this to say in his latest editorial at www.specialist-games.com:

"So to set the record straight and prevent further confusion, I never said that Games Workshop would never do any Specialist Games miniatures ever again, that is not the case. However, the Adeptus Mechanicus ships released this summer does mark the end of the miniatures in our current bi-annual release strategy. So there will be no further new releases for the Specialist Games going forward in the near future. Where we go from here is a good question and one that is being decided by people far higher up the GW chain than me. In the meantime I’ll continue to do my bit on this very website. Specialist Games and their accompanying ranges will remain in place and available from Direct channels. Games Workshop remains committed to the Specialist Games and their IP as evidenced by the Blood Bowl computer game that is currently in development. "

Good to see they're at least trying to hold on. Even if they stop making new stuff, but then aside from epic and warmaster they could try and get folks to build stuff out of the regular GW range.. like for instance, you can buy a couple of empire milita sprues and have all the bitz you need to make a good human warband for Mordheim.

I think they could easily bring space hulk back. Just make the rules available in a PDF, including printable board pieces that you can print out and paste on posterboard.. or go a step further with 1 or 2 little articles on how you can make your own space hulk interiors using bitz from cities of death box sets.. and then just use your own/buy new terminators & genestealers.

Posted By Necros on 10/05/2007 9:02 PM
Good to see they're at least trying to hold on. Even if they stop making new stuff, but then aside from epic and warmaster they could try and get folks to build stuff out of the regular GW range.. like for instance, you can buy a couple of empire milita sprues and have all the bitz you need to make a good human warband for Mordheim.

  Especially considering the Empire Militia Sprues were originally designed for Mordheim! 

  It is a relief that they're not giving SG the axe, and that there are still chances for Epic Tyranids and Warmaster Beasts of Chaos some time in the future.

Do you know, when Space Hulk was first released the entire set cost £20?

They could rerelease it as a complete set. I heard they "lost" the templates, moulds or cutting blocks for some of the contents, possibly the corridor sections. Even so these could be recreated without much toruble.

I suspect, though, that GW's preferred strategy will be to get users to buy two sets of plastic Terminators, some Genestealer sets and so on, thus inflating the price of the whole game to eye-popping levels.

In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

Space Hulk is awesome. Better than BB, Necro, Talisman, Dark Future, better than all the great ones.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/06/2007 5:08 AM
Do you know, when Space Hulk was first released the entire set cost £20?

They could rerelease it as a complete set. I heard they "lost" the templates, moulds or cutting blocks for some of the contents, possibly the corridor sections. Even so these could be recreated without much toruble.

I suspect, though, that GW's preferred strategy will be to get users to buy two sets of plastic Terminators, some Genestealer sets and so on, thus inflating the price of the whole game to eye-popping levels.

In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

  I don't think so.  I read an interview with Jervis where he mused about re-releasing Space Hulk at some point in the future, with cheap(er) snap-together Terminators instead of the current fancy plastic ones.  Hell, they could use the same genestealers from the Macragge boxed set. 

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/06/2007 5:08 AM
In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

Op. Damocles is actually selling for around £35 - £40 now.  I believe one of Rackham's problems with AT-43 in Europe, and particularly the UK was that they overcooked the entry level price.  Can't recall the US Damocles price now, but IIRC it was way less than $100!  Personally my cut-off point for trying something out is around £30, but that's just me as a jaded old fart.  £40 is probably more realistic for the market the way it is.

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/06/2007 3:22 PM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/06/2007 5:08 AM
Do you know, when Space Hulk was first released the entire set cost £20?

They could rerelease it as a complete set. I heard they "lost" the templates, moulds or cutting blocks for some of the contents, possibly the corridor sections. Even so these could be recreated without much toruble.

I suspect, though, that GW's preferred strategy will be to get users to buy two sets of plastic Terminators, some Genestealer sets and so on, thus inflating the price of the whole game to eye-popping levels.

In my opnion this would be the wrong strategy. Space Hulk is a great entry game but only at the right price point, which these days is about £40-£50 like the AT43 box.

  I don't think so.  I read an interview with Jervis where he mused about re-releasing Space Hulk at some point in the future, with cheap(er) snap-together Terminators instead of the current fancy plastic ones.  Hell, they could use the same genestealers from the Macragge boxed set. 

Would a re-release of SH be worth the candle though?  The old game partly sold well because of the association with the Alien films.  That's not going to be much of a hook any more as those films are old.  A few may be interested, particularly fans of the old game, but I can't seeing it being a big hit these days.

In order to have a big hit they have to tune into the current zeitgeist.  They need to have a game around the angles that are coming out in current sci-fi films.  A bunch of marines on a derilect space ship with a bunch of gribbly aliens is old news.

Double post...

You're right that Space Hulk came out about the time that Aliens was popular and fresh. It was GW co-opting the Aliens theme into the 40K background -- Genestealers were lifted very obviously from the general Aliens concept and Tyranids are a development of that theme.

It is open to question how successful GW are at introducing their own IP. So much of the 40K universe is drawn from external sources. If they cannot introduce their own genuinely original material successfully, it leaves them vulnerable to shifts of popular culture.

Space Hulk is a good game in itself regardless of the 40K or Aliens inspired background. 40K fans would jump on it, I'm sure. 40K haters would probably be put off.

Posted By Osbad on 10/08/2007 1:22 AM
In order to have a big hit they have to tune into the current zeitgeist.  They need to have a game around the angles that are coming out in current sci-fi films.  A bunch of marines on a derilect space ship with a bunch of gribbly aliens is old news.

So replace the Terminators with Striking Scorpions.

The point is though there's only so much they can make by cannibalising 40k fans. OK, so they need to keep 40 fans interested, but the point of SH would be to lure n00bs, not just entertain existing 40k fans - they tried all that with SG and we know how much love they get from GW now... its all "if you're a 40k fan then shut up and just buy 40k you whinger".

Nope, the only way GW will diversify from the core games into any form of new "mini-game" is if it can be focussed at attracting brand new money into their stores. And that means translating GW-style wargaming into a milieu that non-GW-fanbois can identify with. LotR did it for a while, but there was only very limited cross-over from the LotR new meat into 40k and WFB because they are such different milieux.

On the other hand, taking the 40k or WFB background and giving it a slant that "chimes with the times" might work. Possibly. If they advertised it outside of their enclosed little GW-fanboi comfort zone...

GW's core problem is they think they are a games hobby company but actually they are a Warhammer company.

If you dislike the 40K and WHFB fluffgrounds, you would probably never buy any GW game that was based in them. Thus ruling out, er, everything in the Specialist Range.

That explains the lack of crossover from LoTR to the other "core" products.

I didn't mean they should re-release space hulk as it was.. in a big box set and all that. I agree that the draw was based on the Alien films and that whole angle. What I meant was, they just use it, from a marketing standpoint, as a way to sell some more terminator & genestealer boxes. Make the rules free to download, templates you can print out, and say "if you wanna play just click here and order some terminators and genestealers, or buy this special pack of all the models you'll need for a mere $5000".. folks that already have the models can just use em out of their own collection and start playing. If you're a nid player, you can find someone who's a marine player and has a few terminators and the 2 of you can set up a game. So, the only real investment GW would have to do in making a new version would be to convert the rulebook & templates to a PDF, and write up a few web articles in Black Gobbo. It's something that would be targeted at current GW players, kinda like all the other specialist games are.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/08/2007 3:46 AM

Posted By Osbad on 10/08/2007 1:22 AM
In order to have a big hit they have to tune into the current zeitgeist. ...

Hmm ... "Space Hulk Musical " ???!!!   

Posted By Osbad on 10/08/2007 1:22 AM
Would a re-release of SH be worth the candle though?  The old game partly sold well because of the association with the Alien films.  That's not going to be much of a hook any more as those films are old.  A few may be interested, particularly fans of the old game, but I can't seeing it being a big hit these days.

In order to have a big hit they have to tune into the current zeitgeist.  They need to have a game around the angles that are coming out in current sci-fi films.  A bunch of marines on a derilect space ship with a bunch of gribbly aliens is old news.

IF Space Hulk was done as a boarding action game where one could "bridge" BFG and 40K it could certainly be worth the "candle."  In fact utilizing current miniatures and just adding plastic bulkheads and board tiles (probably where GW would or could lose money) this could be just another fun way to link large scale epic games to smaller scale 40k games etc. 

Just my thoughts really. I tried to modify the space hulk rules when the who eye of terror was going on with allthe space battles and planet falls. I didn't do the best job in the world but boarding actions was very well received in my local area.  your mileage of course may vary.

My opinion is that if they did rerelease SH, it would not only garner a huge draw from the sci-fi crowd, but in many gamers in general.

It's a good game. It won awards when it was first released. You dont have to love 40K background to enjoy SH. Its stands on its own merits.

Sure, it rode the coattails of the Aliens franchise, but that was just one of the minor draws to the game. It's simply a good game.

I understand everyone's points about releasing the rules as a PDF, or making them a kind of add-on or bridge to other games.

I just think at the moment there is no reason to go into a GW shop unless you want to play 40K or WHFB. And they have similar fluff, the main difference being the weapon names.

Posted By Osbad on 10/08/2007 1:22 AM

In order to have a big hit they have to tune into the current zeitgeist.  They need to have a game around the angles that are coming out in current sci-fi films.  A bunch of marines on a derilect space ship with a bunch of gribbly aliens is old news.

They already tried that with LotR, I remember seeing it in bookstores, video game stores and (I believe) Walmart/Zellers/Toy Stores.

But nogo.

That's probably a big reason why they *female dog* about competition from video games, especially Diablo 2/MMO type time sinks.

Settlers of Catan didn't rely on a film tie-in. GW's basic problem is they don't make games anymore, they just make add-ons for 40K and WHFB.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/09/2007 1:53 PM
Settlers of Catan didn't rely on a film tie-in. GW's basic problem is they don't make games anymore, they just make add-ons for 40K and WHFB.

Exactly.

The game stands on its own merits. Much like space hulk...

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/08/2007 11:55 AM
I understand everyone's points about releasing the rules as a PDF, or making them a kind of add-on or bridge to other games.

I just think at the moment there is no reason to go into a GW shop unless you want to play 40K or WHFB. And they have similar fluff, the main difference being the weapon names.

one doesn't need to go to a GW shop to play space hulk or necromunda or warhammer quest or bloodbowl. Or any other stand alone game for that matter. For many of us, there isn't a local GW store nearby anyways, so that really isn't a big factor to begin with. 

it's been a long time since GW allowed anything but core games to be played in their stores, so most people do it at their homes, at the LFGS or in their basements etc. 

anyways, that's just my 2 coppers.

Posted By two heads talking on 10/10/2007 9:08 AM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 10/08/2007 11:55 AM
I understand everyone's points about releasing the rules as a PDF, or making them a kind of add-on or bridge to other games.

I just think at the moment there is no reason to go into a GW shop unless you want to play 40K or WHFB. And they have similar fluff, the main difference being the weapon names.

one doesn't need to go to a GW shop to play space hulk or necromunda or warhammer quest or bloodbowl. Or any other stand alone game for that matter. For many of us, there isn't a local GW store nearby anyways, so that really isn't a big factor to begin with. 

it's been a long time since GW allowed anything but core games to be played in their stores, so most people do it at their homes, at the LFGS or in their basements etc. 

anyways, that's just my 2 coppers.

What I meant was what variety of games you can buy in the shop to take away and play elsewhere.

GW have a big, expensive retail network, they also support an expensive studio and in-house manufacturing and distribution facilities. They are getting to the point where they do nothing with all this except 40K and WHFB. They are very highly specialised and therefore very vulnerable to a change in the market.

If people get bored or dissatisfied with their two games, they will be in big trouble. And the competition is increasing all the time.