Hi, I'm new to 40k and looking for a space marine chapter to play. Does anybody know who the missing legions/primarchs are?

As far as I can tell, no. But then again that's probably why they're still missing.

Check with the UK GW website, they seem to have their stuff together under the marine section. It'll give you some back ground on each chapter; and I *THINK*, not certain, it will say more that just "this chapter will stand where other marines run, bah ha!! best chapter alive!!!", etc...

Not sure why GW does that but they make each chapter out to be the best.

I personally like the Dark Angels, and trait marines. Good luck!

Thanks

wikipedia is also a great source for fluff about the primarchs.

There's not much more info about the missing primarchs other than they're missing. I believe GW did this to give players more creative license in the background of their chapters.

Posted By lifeafter on 10/20/2007 6:01 PM
wikipedia is also a great source for fluff about the primarchs.

There's not much more info about the missing primarchs other than they're missing. I believe GW did this to give players more creative license in the background of their chapters.

Although the latest "hints" that we're getting about them seem to suggest something "tragic" and/or "dishonorable" (Maybe...) about them, so, not sure why you'd want to base your DIY chapter on them!

Odds are, one day, looking for a few more dollars/pounds/euros/etc. GW WILL reveal the "truth" about them... And it will be...

Unimpressive?

Are the legion of the damned a missing legion.
Why are they damned? GW.com didn't really explain that.

Go to wikipedia.org for that question as well. If it's the chapter I'm thinking, then they are the ones who show up, beat the living tar out of Xenos, and then leave.

The Legion of the Damned is the Fire Hawks Chapter. Their fleet was lost in the warp, and they are now unable to remain in the material universe as a result...hence they are damned. They still randomly show up in remote warzones, fight for the Emperor without a word spoken and disappear like ghosts.

As far as the lost legions, some very...very...very early references appear in some of the original sourcebooks, but even they're murky. As was mentioned, they're left "intentionally blank" for people who want to delve into their own personal visions of those legions.

this gets talked about about once every 2 months here on dakka, wiki is a good place to start looking for hitns..
but there is also hints ain the horus heresy novels that Horus may have had a hand in the deaht of oen of them when he had the wierd back in time thing and went to the lunar labs where the primarchs were..

also there is the usual rumour of one of the lost primarchs being Sigmer Heldenhammer form Warhammer Fantasy, gw keep denying it but all fluf fnuts in their heart of hearts know this to be true..


tbh mate i'd think of somthign differnt than the lost legions, read more of the fluff before makign your decision a lot of newbies go for the lost legions i suggest thinking of somthign new or some sort of new spin on one of the more established marine themes considering i can think off the top of my head abotu 18 different ones you could do

The lost legions are a tip of the hat to Roman legions, which had several lost legions. My worthless history degree finally pays off!

Sigmar is one of the missing primarchs. You'd have to of played GW games for a long time for that though, as there were numerous hints and links that "Warhammer" was just a world in the Warhammer 40k universe that was blocked off by warp storms. There still are a bunch of hints, but you'll no longer see chaos warriors in Warhammer armed with chainswords and plasma guns.

As far as the Legion of the Damned is concerned, they used to be known as the Fire Hawks, and true to their name, they were prone to spontaneously combusting. Fire would pour from the cracks of their armor, and so they were deemed corrupt. The Imperium determined that they should be destroyed, and so they fled, repainting their armor and going into isolation, and then getting lost in the warp. They are now known as the Legion of the Damned, because the Imperium has turned its back to them, and yet they do not worship Chaos, so they are unwanted no matter where they go.

angron i do not know wher eyour geting the last bit of info form but thats never been in the Legion of the Dammed's backstory, you seem to be merging the legion of the dammed(the fire hawks) and the Flame falcons. two different chapters

the legion of the dammed
"The Fire hawks were founded as part of the cursed 21st Founding, but en route to pacify a planet they became trapped in the Warp. They were stuck there for nearly twenty years, and in the warp they were subjected to a plague that caused them hideous suffering. When they finally escaped from the warp the Chapter had been devastated. Most of them were gone and the survivors were no more than animated corpses, their flesh was gray and decaying and the suffering they endured had left them near insane and longing for release from the pain. However, they were still loyal servants of the Imperium and as such they were determined to give up what semblance of life they possessed for the Emperor. They abolished all ranks, as they were all equal in death. They decorated their armour with symbols of cheerlessly grinning skulls and souls writhing in the flames of purgatory. They no longer considered themselves Fire Hawks; they were now simply the Legion of the Damned. Obsessed with their fate, they do not fear death; indeed, they seek little else."

the flame falcons
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/cursed/3/ go here for them

I may very well have done that.... sometimes there's too much junk in my head for my own good

I think they say that the Blood Ravens may be a missing chapter or something.

I doubt it will be the Blood Ravens, as it's already been revealed that they are in fact made from the geneseed of pre-heresy Thousand Sons, not a seperate Primarch.

The Lost legions are a mystery, and may always remain that way unless GW really runs out of ideas.

Angron wrote:Sigmar is one of the missing primarchs. You'd have to of played GW games for a long time for that though, as there were numerous hints and links that "Warhammer" was just a world in the Warhammer 40k universe that was blocked off by warp storms. There still are a bunch of hints, but you'll no longer see chaos warriors in Warhammer armed with chainswords and plasma guns.

The Albion reward items are very clearly 40K wargear, and most of it appears to be marine stuff.

snorkle wrote:

Hi, I'm new to 40k and looking for a space marine chapter to play. Does anybody know who the missing legions/primarchs are?

Long ago one of the writeups for the Horus Hersy say that five Legions were sent after Horus, three were corrupted, two lost. Presumably this means two Legions were destroyed by Horus before the battle for Terra, though they could have been sealed away by warp storms, lost in time or anything.

This writeup was later contradicted, or more accurately the two missing legions were omited entirely from the story arc.

It is known that all twenty legions were formed, as they were formed presumably from the initial stock of geneseed before they were united with their primarchs. Whether the two 'lost' primarchs were ever found has never been commented on, but it is safe to presume the legions existed at one time.

Orlanth wrote:

Angron wrote:Sigmar is one of the missing primarchs. You'd have to of played GW games for a long time for that though, as there were numerous hints and links that "Warhammer" was just a world in the Warhammer 40k universe that was blocked off by warp storms. There still are a bunch of hints, but you'll no longer see chaos warriors in Warhammer armed with chainswords and plasma guns.

The Albion reward items are very clearly 40K wargear, and most of it appears to be marine stuff.

It was a powered gauntlet (pfist), a gleaming sword (pweapon), and a plasma weapon i believe.

But didn't GW specifically release a statement that the Warhammer World was not a part of the 40k universe? I'm pretty sure I read something to that effect somewhere. Then again my mind is deserting me in my old age.

I think they may have done at some time or another, but similarities are so blatantly obvious.

On the issue of missing Legions, I reckon Grey Knights could be one of the two missing ones, except even they don't know it. It amkes sense since there's already a lot of chapters with missing history.

I reckon Grey Knights could be one of the two missing ones, except even they don't know it. It amkes sense since there's already a lot of chapters with missing history.

Actually it is rumored that the Grey Knights use the geneseed of the Emperor himself, hence why NONE have been lost to Chaos, and thats what makes them so bad ass too!!!

snorkle wrote:But didn't GW specifically release a statement that the Warhammer World was not a part of the 40k universe? I'm pretty sure I read something to that effect somewhere. Then again my mind is deserting me in my old age.

I dont remember anything like that, there can be so many parallels drawn between the two i cant see how people could not at least consider it.

Seriously?? WH might be a world in the 40K universe :O :O

Never heard any of this,Anyone got a link to a thread about it?

The primarchs also use the emperor's geneseed (sorta). And 9 of them fell to chaos.

A good analysis can be found here (even if I do say so myself);

http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177

That is a very well thought out post and the musings seem spot on to me. But half of the page is just grey on my screen for some reason. Right after the part where it says what zodiac the primarchs have all the text is grey and I can't read anything. Any help?

Thanks for the compliment, a lot of hard work went into it. When I first did it, BL boards had a background skin of only white, so I chose the best colours to go with that. Since they have changed the forums so that you can have other skins, the font is harder to see if you chose a darker one. Can I suggest that you go to the BL homepage, scroll down to the bottom and select a white skin, it should then (hopefully) be more visible.

Yeah that did it. But I'm not even sure it was the skin. Yesterday the second half of the page was in greyy lcoks as if it was a spoiler but there was no text in the blocks. And it was still in paragraphs. Very bizarre.
Once again great post and I'm glad I was able to read both halfs.

I finished reading all 6 pages. I really like your theory with the Emperor. But I'm not clear about the part where the 2nd becomes the third. That would mean they bore the brunt? That makes sense, but I'd like to hear your version if it's different. Thanks.

snorkle wrote:I finished reading all 6 pages. I really like your theory with the Emperor. But I'm not clear about the part where the 2nd becomes the third. That would mean they bore the brunt? That makes sense, but I'd like to hear your version if it's different. Thanks.

Well, basically I think the Emperor's Children are Legion II (The Primarchs are like fathers to the Space Marines - The Emperor is a father to this Legion). The fact that the records of the first three Legions made during the Great Crusade (Dark Angels, missing Legion and Emperor's Children) have all been deleted suggests that something went on between these three Legions. The Dark Angels (apart from having records purged, seems to have emerged from it OK, but the missing Legion is gone and the Emperor's Children suffers an 'accident' which severely lowers their numbers.

Combined with the fact that around this time the Emperor changed his symbol from the Lightning Bolt emblem to that of the Aquilla, and then allowed only the Emperor's Children the honour of wearing it is another factor that suggests some sort of bias towards the Legion.

What I think happened is that the Dark Angels sat on the fence (again) while the Emperors Children and the missing Legion slugged it out - one loyal to the creator of the Primarchs (who was Emperor for a short spell) while the other Legion was loyal to the first Primarch found, who won and became the Emperor we know and love today.

I think that the (new) Emperor had to hide his tracks, since he knew that the other Primarchs would not follow him, so he incorporated his Legion, (Emperor's Children) into Fulgrims Legion (Legion II - who have now been wiped out) and deleted the records of the existence of his involvement with his Legion.

Another possibility is that the Dark Angels and Emperors Children wiped out the missing Legion together and then the Emperor wiped out his own Legion to hide the evidence of his gene-seed (the 'accident') and then rebuilt it using Fulgrims gene-seed, but allowing them the honour of wearing the Aquilla for being (secretly) his Legion - even though it no longer uses his gene-seed.

That is basically what I figured, just a lot more detailed. So would the third legion that fought against him built using Fulgrim's geneseed at first? Or was it rebuilt with his geneseed? If it wasn't his geneseed from the beginning, then who' was it?

snorkle wrote:That is basically what I figured, just a lot more detailed. So would the third legion that fought against him built using Fulgrim's geneseed at first? Or was it rebuilt with his geneseed? If it wasn't his geneseed from the beginning, then who' was it?

Yes, I believe that the third Legion was made from Fulgrim's gene-seed. Also, when you consider that there were only two hundred alive from two Legions, I think that the it is likely that the Emperor was responsible for the destruction of his own Legion to cover things up.

Something along the lines of...

Dark Angels and Emperor's Children (Legion II) destroy Legion III (though the Emperor's Children take part in most of the fighting) then the Emperor gets the Dark Angels to destroy the Emperor's Children. This has resulted in all evidence of the Emperor's gene-seed being used in the Legions being destroyed. He then rebuilds a Legion using Fulgrims geneseed and names them the Emperors Children (now Legion III) and gives them the sole use of the Aquilla since he still sort of considers them his Legion. He decides to delete all records of his old Legion (Legion II) because any examination of the gene-seed would lead back to him, showing he was a Primarch.

The two hundred survivors from the 'accident' were all the Emperor had got round to making since rebuilding the Legion.

Personally, I think the simplest explanation is that Legion II and Legion XI turned traitor prior to the Horus Heresy, and for that were permanently expunged from the records. While the traitor legions of the Horus Heresy did horrific things, we still have records of them. This suggests a couple things:

1) Legions II and XI did things so much more egregious than the traitor legions of the HH that much more work was put into deleting any trace of them from the records. (unlikely)
2) The scale of the HH was such that even if the Imperium tried to cover it up, it would be impossible to do so. (more probable)
3) Legions II and XI turned traitor early enough that it was a simpler task to delete any trace of them. (more probable)

Because of the extent that the Emperor and the Imperium went through to remove traces of Legions II and XI, I really don't think that there's any remaining connection between these Legions and any existing Chapters. I mean, if the Emperor was going to delete all records of these Legions, would he allow any survivors of those Legions? Would he allow any of their geneseed to be saved? I doubt it. I think for the scale of deletion we're talking that the Emperor would have virus-bombed worlds to eliminate the taint. And frankly, I imagine he would have done this to try to keep any of the other Primarchs from getting any ideas (not that that worked).

I think that these Legions will remain a mystery. I don't foresee GW ever answering the question of who these Legions were and I don't think they've ever in the past answered the question of who they were. But then, I didn't think Marvel would every reveal the true past of Wolverine, so what do I know?

Daemonslave: That's interesting, but more of a conspiracy-theory speculation rather than supported by any 40k texts.

To answer the OP, we don't know. They may never have been found, they may have turned traitor before Horus, or they may have been destroyed in battle prior to the HH. They are intentially leaving it a mystery so we can have this fluff discussion over and over and over again.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:To answer the OP, we don't know. They may never have been found, they may have turned traitor before Horus, or they may have been destroyed in battle prior to the HH. They are intentially leaving it a mystery so we can have this fluff discussion over and over and over again.

And over and over and over and over...

Kinda not on your subject completely, but a cool themed army for Chaos would be Malal. Hes a chaos god hated and feared by the other 4. Wiki him, hes got some cool fluff. He is a chaos god who fights the other 4.

My theory is that the missing legions are just dead legions whose Primarchs were never found and their geneseed died out.
Why this would need a full deletion of all records I don't know but tis a possibility.

Though I like the conspiracy theory idea.

Haven't we heard from the HH series of books (or maybe somewhere else?) that ALL of the Primarchs were in fact found?

Alpharius wrote:Haven't we heard from the HH series of books (or maybe somewhere else?) that ALL of the Primarchs were in fact found?

i think one of them is talked about vaguely as being foudn the other one appears to have been messed with by horus while still in the lunar labs during (as i've said before) his little trip back in time

Kriszilla wrote:I doubt it will be the Blood Ravens, as it's already been revealed that they are in fact made from the geneseed of pre-heresy Thousand Sons, not a seperate Primarch.

When did this happen? Just curious as it was my pet theory, and almost everyone on Dakka lambasted me for holding the theory.

its not confiremd anywhere just rumoured in one of the books about the blood Ravens, but i would point out that they are always listed as at least 2nd founding/

Oh, I knew they weren't an original legion, I was just wondering if it were finally revealed what their parent legion was.

I always thought it was the 1k sons, and was mostly lambasted for it. Just curious if my pet theory proved true or not.

It's been rumored strongly in the fiction that they were created from loyalist Thousand Sons geneseed. Nothing has yet been confirmed however.

Oh how I would LOVE to rub everyones noses in it if that's proven to be the case.

This is a very odd theory about the missing Primarchs but here goes- If the Primarchs were menat to each emphasise part of the Emporer or Humanity's psyke (Fulgrim=perfection,Angron=anger,Guillman=Boring, no wait, planning) then in theory wouldn't one have emphaisesed the Emperors Feminine side? In which case couldn't the sisters of battle or 31st millenia counterparts been one of the legions?

Of the other, I don't know, maybe been the anti-Emperor, or a pariah- so had to be killed because of this?

I' going to get so ridiculed for this..!

Storm Lord wrote:Guillman=Boring, no wait, planning)

Look, if your eyes start glazing over the minute you hear the words "logistical support," "supply line," or "recruitment goals," you have no business leading a company of little plastic men into battle!

Storm Lord wrote:This is a very odd theory about the missing Primarchs but here goes- If the Primarchs were menat to each emphasise part of the Emporer or Humanity's psyke (Fulgrim=perfection,Angron=anger,Guillman=Boring, no wait, planning) then in theory wouldn't one have emphaisesed the Emperors Feminine side? In which case couldn't the sisters of battle or 31st millenia counterparts been one of the legions?

Of the other, I don't know, maybe been the anti-Emperor, or a pariah- so had to be killed because of this?

I' going to get so ridiculed for this..!

that was the rainbow marines IMO. most people say they weren't a first founding, but i think being openly feminine would make them get erased from all records, which one chapter has had done to them

Bastirous666 wrote:that was the rainbow marines IMO. most people say they weren't a first founding, but i think being openly feminine would make them get erased from all records, which one chapter has had done to them

Rainbows are feminine?

no just the other stuff about them. they used little kittens and pink backrounds to all their heraldry. they also tended to prance about quite often.

huh, never expected anyone to support that theory...
Are the rianbow Marines those ones with a picture that when anyone sees they want to laugh? or am I thinking of something different?

maybe one of the primarchs was a grot like creature to represents the emporors weak side

The emperor has no weak side... who do you think he is? (Chuck Norris by the way, how else could he have defeated Russ in battle?) Those pics of him in the Rulebook are just an artists interpretation of him, seeing as the only thing alive that remebers him that is imperial is Bjorn fo the Space Wolves, and good luck getting him to draw you a picture...

(oh and Storm, its that picture. Though the actual paint job of the Chapter/Legion was black.)

I also like Revenant's theory as he's written in his Rise of the Tau story on Black Library. His version is that the 2 missing Primarchs were psychic nulls, which somehow supports the C'tan (he explained it better). The Emperor figured this link out and tried to destroy them, but he failed thus creating the Void Knights or Champions (I read it a while ago). This lead to them being deleted from the records.

The feminine side is logical (sort of). But the fluff on space marine creation doesn't support it.

Im pretty sure his femine side was in the Emperors Children legion, they are some fethed up kids...

I'm not really very big on how SM are created, just that it happens. Although chances are the Emperor would have been able to adjust the process to work for women, afterall he's meant to be 'godlike'

I think Fulgrim would have a fit if he heard you say that!

Yah but what kind of Space Marine wears pink? Even the Rainbow warriors colours aren't pink! Heck they are black! Defeinately the emperors children, that and it would explain their affinity for pain, and pleasure. (They are just a legion of little emo girls amirite?)

the emperors children were originally purple, they changed after they became devoted to slaanesh and a daemon took over fulgrim's body.

Outside the imperial palace there was 20 statues of the Primarchs, by the time of the HH 2 had been forgotten. Apparently they fought on both sides of the HH but no one knows.

How do you mean forgotten? As in the statues were missing, or people litterally forgot the statues were there even when they were next to the others? Or people just forgot their names?

my favorite theory for the missing Primarchs is they landed on alien worlds ie ork, eldar, hrudd or even necron.

think of the possiblitys the most powerful digganob is found to be a primarch the emp finds him and puts him in charge of a legion of sm and tells him to forget his orkish ways, but he rebells starting a massive waaaagh heading out into space to take the galaxy for himself!!!

Scragglefoot

I think one of the Missing Primachs is With AL . Cause there the Same bulid and everything and way to identical. The Legion has always been shadey. Why would it say the other Primach is here. When they could use him. Omegen is the 19th Primach IMO.

And the other one no Idea.

As for there Legions the ones never Claimed. They probelly just got shuffled into a different Legion Like UltraMarines lol.

Or, as me and my friends like to beleive, the Emp put them into one of those storage places you get these days, just incase of future need. or so Guillman couldn't codex them...

haha. Nice

As in the statues had been worn away and the name tags were missing so maybe someone pinched them. Maybe the Emperor was drunk when he found them and killed them and couldnt admit it so he denied all existence of them up until now...

haha yea could be.

haha yea could be.

Howdy, first time poster, long time reader.

Firstly, Demonslave, that work is impressive to say the least. Seriously, awesome job man.

Secondly, I don't know if I agree with your conspiracy theory about the two Emperors:

- You quote Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness as saying that the Heresy was the first inter-legionary war; however, this altercation between legions would have had to occur long before the Heresy. I suppose that the new Emperor could have had the records changed and refer to the Heresy as the first Marine-on-Marine war (or they just think of that incident as a police-action ), but...

- ...what of the Custodes? Weren't they already established prior to the conquest of Mars? I imagine that they would have had something to say about this whole "deposing and replacing the Emperor thing". I honestly can't quite remember, but I thought that they were around by that time.

- Also (though not directly tied to your theory), I think that the known Primarchs did know something about the missing Primarchs, as Dorn notes that those legions suffered separate tragedies when he's off pondering in The Lightning Tower. Again, they might only think that they know what happened, but it seems pretty clear that Dorn thinks he knows something.

Yes/No?

- ...what of the Custodes? Weren't they already established prior to the conquest of Mars? I imagine that they would have had something to say about this whole "deposing and replacing the Emperor thing". I honestly can't quite remember, but I thought that they were around by that time.

Custodes were the emperors personal guard since he had any space marine available.

- Also (though not directly tied to your theory), I think that the known Primarchs did know something about the missing Primarchs, as Dorn notes that those legions suffered separate tragedies when he's off pondering in The Lightning Tower. Again, they might only think that they know what happened, but it seems pretty clear that Dorn thinks he knows something.

Yes/No?

Thats 10 millenia back and you can't ask dorn today.
Any event,tragic or not, must not involve imperials. Back then,there is a galaxy to conquer,full of xenos and organizations not willing to compliance.

Lost legions are not extinct or lost forever, they can return when we play wh50k

But realism says, gw has done the right decision to hold back 2 legions and got a mystery for the fans.

Sad but true. However one day when new writers come into the fold of writing rulebooks and codexes etc, one day someone will let something slip. besides I believe GW already has loads of fluf about the 2 lost primarchs and are l;etting it out piecemeal and no-ones got enougth yet to make any sense out of it, or the patience to read all the stuff produced

OT:
GW already has lost some writers (chambers,thorpe,..) now. Does anyone know more about the guy mentioned as
co-author for codex SM ?
/OT

I think its possible to drop some fluff about the missing 2 primarchs.
All known primarchs are in stasis/on holiday/play demonprince and its obvious that a changed crew
can interprete existing background different. 5th Ed and new codices may not be "copy and paste" writings.

They rarely are, sadly I don't know who wrote the SM one, just the Imperial Monkeys one, even though that hasn't got a release date yet

A german site on the interweb just changed dates of release. IG is said for mid 2009. Don't know how reliable.

probably quite reliable, its unlikely it would have been mentioned in WD (albeit slightly) if a release date wasn't planned, just not published in all GW things

Sounds odd. they always brag about the count down to the new dex, so we'll have to wait and see about the las gun mark 2. Dont forget how powerful the IG were long ago.

Invisdable wrote:Howdy, first time poster, long time reader.

Firstly, Demonslave, that work is impressive to say the least. Seriously, awesome job man.

Thank you very much.

Secondly, I don't know if I agree with your conspiracy theory about the two Emperors:

- You quote Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness as saying that the Heresy was the first inter-legionary war; however, this altercation between legions would have had to occur long before the Heresy. I suppose that the new Emperor could have had the records changed and refer to the Heresy as the first Marine-on-Marine war (or they just think of that incident as a police-action ), but...

Maybe there wasn't a war. Maybe the Emperor (The New Man who is noted as liking to stay in the shadows throughout human history) gave up the reigns to the first Primarch he came across and changed the records to accomodate this (using the Dark Angels and Emperors Children to destroy Legion 2 [the evidence with the geneseed link]). Afterall, a Primarch sized guy is going to struggle to not get noticed from 8000BC until 30,000AD.

- ...what of the Custodes? Weren't they already established prior to the conquest of Mars? I imagine that they would have had something to say about this whole "deposing and replacing the Emperor thing". I honestly can't quite remember, but I thought that they were around by that time.

If they witnessed the passing of power then they may have also swapped alleigence, with a few remaining to guard the New Man [Kind of like Malcador is always accompanied by Custodes ]

- Also (though not directly tied to your theory), I think that the known Primarchs did know something about the missing Primarchs, as Dorn notes that those legions suffered separate tragedies when he's off pondering in The Lightning Tower. Again, they might only think that they know what happened, but it seems pretty clear that Dorn thinks he knows something.

Well what they know and what they are told happened are completely different things.

Daemonslave wrote:Maybe there wasn't a war. Maybe the Emperor (The New Man who is noted as liking to stay in the shadows throughout human history) gave up the reigns to the first Primarch he came across and changed the records to accomodate this (using the Dark Angels and Emperors Children to destroy Legion 2 [the evidence with the geneseed link]). Afterall, a Primarch sized guy is going to struggle to not get noticed from 8000BC until 30,000AD.

But why would he need to destroy the legion? If he gave up power, then there doesn't seem any real reason to hide all this information. There certainly isn't anything damning about it.

Daemonslave wrote:If [the custodes] witnessed the passing of power then they may have also swapped alleigence, with a few remaining to guard the New Man [Kind of like Malcador is always accompanied by Custodes ]

If power was ceded to the first Primarch, then that makes sense but, I still don't understand why this switch would need to be kept secret.

Daemonslave wrote:Well what they know and what they are told happened are completely different things.

True, but my point was more that Dorn had to be told something about them since he thought that their tragedies were separate.

As a side note, whether or not the Imperial-switchero occurred with Legion II, what do you think happened to the other one? My guess is that accident during warp travel deposited them in the Starcraft universe.

Btw the Emperor was born in 8000BC for the first time, he died and was reborn, gradually merging his lifes into one. So it would just be a tall well built man who would get old and die. And there are a few Primarchs left alive, Horus who was the first to be found is dead. But Lion El'Johnson and Roboute Guilliman are still alive and allied to the Imperium, it's just they cant talk. Because 1 is asleep waiting to lead his legion to glory the other is in status field with a slowly healing cut across his neck.

Space_hoppo wrote:Btw the Emperor was born in 8000BC for the first time, he died and was reborn, gradually merging his lifes into one. So it would just be a tall well built man who would get old and die. And there are a few Primarchs left alive, Horus who was the first to be found is dead. But Lion El'Johnson and Roboute Guilliman are still alive and allied to the Imperium, it's just they cant talk. Because 1 is asleep waiting to lead his legion to glory the other is in status field with a slowly healing cut across his neck.

Others are to return if needed: Russ,Dorn,Corax,Jaghatai,Vulkan. Lost are only 2 : sanguinius,ferrus.
Traitors must be counted as demons,they forfeit their position! Only fulgrim may be saved if you can
pull his demon out.

Dorn is dead, they have his hand however and all the Chapter masters have to sign it Jaghatai is stuck chasing down dark eldar, russ left to go somewhere and hasnt been seen since, Vulkan has gone as well and Corax went to the Eye of Terror on his own, They arnt immortal they do die of old age as well.

Invisdable wrote:


But why would he need to destroy the legion? If he gave up power, then there doesn't seem any real reason to hide all this information. There certainly isn't anything damning about it.

By giving up power quietly on the sly, the New Man removes himself from the eyes of those who might seek to destroy him, such as the Chaos Gods or Eldar, etc. This allows him to continue whatever plans he has [Ascension to godhood? Destruction of the Chaos Gods?] while a Primarch runs his empire.

The Heresy has caused the Chaos Gods to become complacent, they think that this New Man is out of commision when all they have done is remove the threat posed by a Primarch.

Space_hoppo wrote:Dorn is dead, they have his hand however and all the Chapter masters have to sign it Jaghatai is stuck chasing down dark eldar, russ left to go somewhere and hasn't been seen since, Vulkan has gone as well and Corax went to the Eye of Terror on his own, They aren't immortal they do die of old age as well.

Russ and corax and vulkan lurking already interweb forums,so they will know what you called them.

Jaghatai can return with C: DE ? no?

I'm sure they wait in a timeless environment. They had to leave because it was clear what can happen when
citizens worship someone and they wanted not to be gods.

No he was killed by Vect for fun. He wouldnt live there for long. And if they are lurking the forums then they can read this. GO HELP YOUR POOR LEGIONS, THEY ARE LONELY!!!! Maybe the Primarchs got bored of the Imperium of man and left to the warp, as they say time goes differently there, maybe they could still be alive.

I doubt Vect would have the power to Kill a primarch, not even Avatars and Greater Daemons seem to be able to do it, and when they do with extreme difficulty. To say Vect killed Jaghatai Khan you may as well say one of the missing Primarchs was killed by Grots when he was found. It just fails to add up

It would be Vect and 500,000 DE really annoyed with the Galaxy. Beseide we all know that the orginal Khan (Gengis Khan) died of a nosebleed in his sleep. So it would be possible for them to Kill him.

Space_hoppo wrote:It would be Vect and 500,000 DE really annoyed with the Galaxy. Beseide we all know that the orginal Khan (Gengis Khan) died of a nosebleed in his sleep. So it would be possible for them to Kill him.

Jhagatai got a nosebleed and died?

The "original" khan didn't die from a nosebleed, he had something unknown to his people.(Find his grave and
some archeologist will buy you every mini you desire for the correct location).

A primarch is not so crazy to get killed by 500000 lousy gothic emo space elves.

But he was crazy enough to charge headlong into the webway on a bike.

A ELITE biker like Jhagatai could drive slalom between DE,got em confused and wins.

What happens when he runs out of fuel?

A white scar will lend him one. They can exchange their ride as nomads do with horses.

Even though he went in on his own?

Space_hoppo wrote:Even though he went in on his own?

I should argue as primarch he got the best bike ever,nuclear engine,never need fuel or such.

But its more likely a few vets managed to follow him. If not , he wouldn't challenge a whole world without support.
A white scar is a hunter- type marine,so its tactical doctrine to reconnoiter first and then decide where to attack.

Yeah but they are also head strong at times and i wouldn't really put it past him.

I agree whit space_hoppo on the head strong part I se him charge power plants an stufe on his own

Still doesn't mean Vect and Dark Eldar killed him. otherwise many other Primarchs should have died during the Great crusade. But agreed that he was a bit stupid/head strong to attack the Dark Eldar homeworld/capital place

Since jaghatai attacked them, DE look sour because he managed to escape and they really
hated been bulldozed from a white scar biker.

Well seeing as the DE arnt dead, we can assume that he is or else there wouldn't be any of them left alive.

DE alive proofs nothing .

It proves that they havn't been killed.

Not dead yet,those DE,but new SM dex may have new white scar fluff.
Oh, remember DE got to wait for their dex a very long
period,makes them Not so important.

Finally,no primarch has ever been bested by xenos.

I think Sanguinius getting his ass handed to him by a Daemon counts.

Sanguinius was killed by Horus, demonically posessed and a Demon are a different thing. He did break a Bloodthirster over his knee, GD's aren't much of a problem for Primarch's.

No before Horus, he has both of his legs broken by a Daemon, it also caused the start of the black rage.

Space_hoppo wrote:No before Horus, he has both of his legs broken by a Daemon, it also caused the start of the black rage.

Demons count NOT as xenos.
Demons count NOT as xenos.
Demons count NOT as xenos.

They may feed on xeno emotions and souls.Some of them got their existence by fault of xenos.

The event with the chaos-world infested by khorne demons was a trap to cripple the BA before the heresy.
But the BA won and got even to Terra to defend the palace.So not the BA got down,the traitors plan failed.
Sanguinius was full operational then,wich makes the received wounds worthless.

Ok so they dont count as Xenos then. Well no Xenos were around at the time of the HH to kill then (Eldar and Dark Eldar busy crying, Nids not arriving, Tau not a race, Ork's getting owned, Necrons still asleepng.

The emperor fought with Horus at his side against Orks. This happened when he only had one primarch found.

But it had the Emperor, he can beat any ork. He's not a Primarch.

Space_hoppo wrote:But it had the Emperor, he can beat any ork. He's not a Primarch.

But its said they 2 battled the mightiest waaaghboss and his green horde with only a few marines.
A real beast,this ork had his chance but got kicked and thrown away from the rooftop.
This early battle means that the ork-threat was always there and the crusade fought often against xenos.
Emperor = =

don't forget Horus part in the brawl.

An ork nearly Strangled the Emperor, so he's not invincible regardless of common beleif

If it strangled him to death Horus would have taken over and then there would be no HH so the Imperium wouldn't be screwed as much.

Storm Lord wrote:An ork nearly Strangled the Emperor, so he's not invincible regardless of common beleif

Never have to be, some billion guardsmen and thousands of space marines back him up!

for the emperor

Space_hoppo wrote:If it strangled him to death Horus would have taken over and then there would be no HH so the Imperium wouldn't be screwed as much.

:S There would be no imperium to be screwed.

Horus got his command from the emperor,he wasn't really sure if it was a good choice to make him warmaster.
When this battle happened, it was only 1 found primarch,so a HH couldn't come.
but if there is no imperium and no HH,there is also no surviving Humanity.
Any more "screwed" situation thinkable as to got wiped out?

When I mentioned the strangle incident it was more to illustrate the point that the Imperium Worships someone who must have nearly died countless times, and only survived because of what would become his worst enemy helping him. The same could be said of the Imperium. if they just put aside their beleif that nothing can beat them totally and worked with either the tau or Eldar for arguments sake then they could survive. Its their sole beleif that humanity is supreme that will destroy them eventually

Yes but Horus was good until the Wor Bearers got annoyed with the Emperor, went to Chaos and decided to bring Horus with them. Yeah they dont like the Tau, they think the are witches, have you seen the Imperial Guard uplifters book (it's commanly called toilet paper). It views the Eldar as skinny Bitches, and the Tau as being spiders living on webs and 'eating the Brains of your kids.'

Mind you it also says that a Railgun at full blast is the same as a Lasgun hot-shot shot, maybe that should go in the Lasguns and their uses however...

@Stormlord :
Eldar won't ally with humans,they think of "mon'keigh" and
you know this Word
Tau are Not an option.themselves took as "first between equals",so
"Gu'ela" may get a citizen 2nd class role wich is not acceptable for a
major race.
I will go the clear path: Eldar=only use others, Tau=blue communist ants Not reliable allies.

However still by your reconning they will work with the Imperium for anti Chaos purposes etc, so still take a form of alliance with them. Of course no races can form true alliances, heck, even some of the Craftworlds have been at war with each other.

Storm Lord wrote:However still by your reconning they will work with the Imperium for anti Chaos purposes etc, so still take a form of alliance with them. Of course no races can form true alliances, heck, even some of the Craftworlds have been at war with each other.

Thats the fun of 40k: you can still battle your own people this time and form an alliance next time.I hope someday this
good/evil divide on ally-charts is widened with neutrals.

side A: all SM,IG,Inq. / Eldar/ Tau
side B: CSM,LatD,demons/DE
side C: Orks/Necron/nids

A= to protect and serve their empires faction
B= let the galaxy burn faction
C= free to chose sides faction
or ?

Aye Craftworlds do fight over little Eldar things. But any Alliance wouldn't work as it would be very hard to set aside all their differences.

You don't have to set aside all differences for an alliance. Coalition Governments seem to make it work ok, well, to a degree any way. Same with the Allies in WW2, didn't like Communism but still worked with Russia

Storm Lord wrote:You don't have to set aside all differences for an alliance. Coalition Governments seem to make it work ok, well, to a degree any way.

You can even work the same goal without any formed alliance. Just fight the same enemy and ignore existing
differences. Makes fascinating teams if free to choose whom to side.

OT:

Same with the Allies in WW2, didn't like Communism but still worked with Russia

They had got the result after. Obvious end when siding with expansionistic empires.
/OT

The Allies were only allied because there was a bigger threat. So if there was something bigger than half enemies it would work, maybe.

It won't be long before people have to ally with each other to take out the Nid threat, and it will be a proper one, lest it fail

Hey,everyone allies against nids or all are consumed biomass? Nice picture to have ancient foes fight alongside to survive.

It would be nice but it wouldn't work, Nurgle would smell out it's allies, Tzeentch would steal there food in crafty ways, Slaanesh would take all the Sisters of Battle and demoralise the normal SM and Khorne well he doesn't like to share killing.

Why should khorne care about shared kills? Every taken head he demands for his own,doesnt matter whos done the work.
Tzentch might not even now his own plans Slanesh never gets his hands on the sisters, this would destroy him
Nurgle needs victims, no interest in a galaxy full of healthy nids

Agreed, and whose to say the Chaos Gods would help others? they can survive without life in the full material universe, instead utilising those who live in the eye of terror and other warp/realspace overlaps. Chances are against the nids the Imperium, Eldar and tau would team up, whilst the Chaos and dark Eldar could strike some form of alliance, but one thats at odds to the Imperial one.

Imperium,Eldar and Tau may work alongside,no team but a hack the common foe group for the moment.

Don't see Orks in any team,maybe they change from one side to the other as the battle rages.

chaos is to chaotic to organize against nids,they will forfeit their followers and wait in the warp. :S

The C'Tan will fight nids,because they won't share this galaxy with anyone (not even cTan),but never be in a team.

Orks will always go to the side thats losing, you know for a better fight. Then changeonce they are winning. Choas will do the oppsosite as it is always after power. The C'tan have no scene of fair play so they will go after everyone, as will the nids.

Space_hoppo wrote:Orks will always go to the side thats losing, you know for a better fight. Then changeonce they are winning. Chaos will do the opposite as it is always after power. The C'tan have no scene of fair play so they will go after everyone, as will the nids.

Just visualizing chaos and orks running around to get to their desired side

C'Tan are the fairest of all, they really hate everyone at the same level.

nids are always hungry, but not interested in robots (necrons), will be their undoing.

Just to answer the original question, I remember way back in the mists of time, Rick Priestley did an interview with a UK-based non-WD gaming magazine (can't remember the title, sorry) and he was asked what the story was with the two missing Legions/Primarchs. His response was of the lines "We could only think of 18 cool names for the Legions, we figured that 18 was a strange number, so we bumped it up to 20 and just had 2 of them unknown."

So, there you go, the real reason that those two Legions were expunged was because Rick and the Boys couldn't come up with a name as awesome as 'Salamanders' or 'World Eaters' for them.

Now thats just a great story for why 2 primarchs are missing-and the lengths of lies GW made to cover it all up in the end! Thanks for sharing that it made me laugh at the folly of it all

Hehe sounds like something the GW brainboyz would do.

Brainboyz...ah the irony. Couldn't come up with an intersting plot twist if they tried

Not a hope in hell of a good plot twist.

Back in the thread someone was talking about grey knights, I don't remember where I read this but i think they were formed from loyalist marines who left their legion after they went chaos to warn the emperor about what was happening.

SPOILER


That's certainly heavily implied by the conclusion to Flight of the Eisenstein, GitD

1hadhq wrote:

Space_hoppo wrote:Orks will always go to the side thats losing, you know for a better fight. Then changeonce they are winning. Chaos will do the opposite as it is always after power. The C'tan have no scene of fair play so they will go after everyone, as will the nids.

Just visualizing chaos and orks running around to get to their desired side

C'Tan are the fairest of all, they really hate everyone at the same level.

nids are always hungry, but not interested in robots (necrons), will be their undoing.

Such intolerance!!!!

The deciever only wants whats best for you!!!

He only wants whats best for you until he gets hungry and stabs you in the back... besides how does he know whats best, hes been asleep for ages, hes probably just cranky having been woken up too soon

Benevolant Necrons will save you kids from the evil Tyrannids!!!

Throw bug bomb at the nids and the problem goes away. No need to get my Necron buddies involved

The nids already try to evade your necron buddies.

But I doubt thats possible to nids forever.So your buddies will have to play pest-control,if they like it or not.