No, I am not telling people where to go get it, I'm merely reiterating the fact as stated. 

It's just like the Chaos dex, and we all know how that one turned out.

I had a chance to glance though the leaked Dex recently and it looks pretty good. Lots decent changes and pleanty of cool orky upgrades for things. Looted vehicles are sort of a do-it-yourself vehicle building slot. You start out with a rhino hull for 30 points and you add stuff on from there with goodies like a battle cannon turret. Battle waggons are av 14 in the front and you can get a cool gorka-morka death roller to attach to the front that does damage to troops when you tank shock them. Most vehicles are open toped unless you upgrade them to closed toped.

Zaagstruk isn't as bad as I thought he'd be. His "PK at I value" is only on the charge. Otherwise he's only got a Slugga+Choppa. He can deepstrike + charge, but he's not worth it for his cost anyway. Storm Boyz are so stupidly fast as it is, you don't need him.

The Winners are:

Shoota Boyz Mobz w/ PK Nobz
Trukk Mobz
Storm Boyz
Lootas
Killa Kanz

Other units outright suck (Grots, arguably tankbustas believe it or not), and others are decent and have uses but aren't completely optimal (Deth Koptas).

Battlewagons are nice, but way too expensive once you give them basic upgrades. And no, the ones you take as transports can't take the ordinance guns.

It's got a whole lot of "FUN" units though. Boy does it have a whole lot of fun units.

What I can't understand is why so many special troops are put into their own units with no ablative wounds at all. 15 point lootas and burnas with a 6+ save? 25 point Flash Gitz (4+ save though)?

oh my gork. can't you guys stop whining and be happy about something for once.
"oh, buhu, my mathhammer stragtey for stormboyz didn't work out"

come on guys. it's a new Ork Codex.

A. NEW. ORK. CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!! (you may add more !s if you want)


come on, Voodoo, you've played Orks for so long, just be happy for them, okay?



p.s. if that was trolling, I'm sorry, but that had to get out.

Posted By Anung Un Rama on 10/30/2007 3:21 PM
oh my gork. can't you guys stop whining and be happy about something for once.
"oh, buhu, my mathhammer stragtey for stormboyz didn't work out"

come on guys. it's a new Ork Codex.

A. NEW. ORK. CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!! (you may add more !s if you want)


come on, Voodoo, you've played Orks for so long, just be happy for them, okay?



p.s. if that was trolling, I'm sorry, but that had to get out.

It has been 10 years!  The codex should be the best thing GW has ever published.  Instead we get the same feeling we all got when we first laid eyes on Jar Jar Binks after 10 years of buildup.

Posted By Anung Un Rama on 10/30/2007 3:21 PM
oh my gork. can't you guys stop whining and be happy about something for once.
"oh, buhu, my mathhammer stragtey for stormboyz didn't work out"

come on guys. it's a new Ork Codex.

A. NEW. ORK. CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!! (you may add more !s if you want)


come on, Voodoo, you've played Orks for so long, just be happy for them, okay?



p.s. if that was trolling, I'm sorry, but that had to get out.

Wow, you thought I was complaining?  I wasn't, I'm overjoyed!

Re-reading my post, I don't see how you thought I was complaining, yes there are losers in the codex that absolutely blow, sure.  But that's every codex, and this dex has a good mix of units that are either very good or are decent enough to be fielded in fun, decent armies. 

I'm happier than a squig in Ork poo with this.

Now to start planning purchases and army upgrades.  I think that one unit that was going to be shoota Boyz is now going to get converted into storm boyz using Assault Marine jump packs...

Posted By Xerxes on 10/30/2007 2:58 PM
What I can't understand is why so many special troops are put into their own units with no ablative wounds at all. 15 point lootas and burnas with a 6+ save? 25 point Flash Gitz (4+ save though)?

It's because before, all the other orks in the burna boyz squad without a burna were.... green with envy......

sorry, had to

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/30/2007 2:29 PM

It's just like the Chaos dex, and we all know how that one turned out.

I dunno Voodoo, that sounds pretty negative to me. The Chaos Codex is a steaming pile of Flesh Hound dung, and if the Ork Codex is 'just like' the Chaos one, then I have a bad feeling about it.

Still, the Lootaz and Tankbusta models are ace, and I love the new Trukk.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/30/2007 3:50 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/30/2007 2:29 PM

It's just like the Chaos dex, and we all know how that one turned out.

I dunno Voodoo, that sounds pretty negative to me. The Chaos Codex is a steaming pile of Flesh Hound dung, and if the Ork Codex is 'just like' the Chaos one, then I have a bad feeling about it.

Still, the Lootaz and Tankbusta models are ace, and I love the new Trukk.

BYE

Oh, I meant "just like the Chaos one" in how the PDF is.  Ie. this was something sent to the printers.

Lootas are just plain "necessary", if it weren't for their stark "need" then they probably aren't worth it, though out of the non-nob Elites, they're the best out of the three (Tankbustas, Burnas, and Lootas).  Mainly because they can sit 48" away in cover and fire like crazy. Everyone else is slowed, or has to do the walk of shame and has no protection or transport - just like the rumors said.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/30/2007 3:50 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/30/2007 2:29 PM

It's just like the Chaos dex, and we all know how that one turned out.

I dunno Voodoo, that sounds pretty negative to me. The Chaos Codex is a steaming pile of Flesh Hound dung, and if the Ork Codex is 'just like' the Chaos one, then I have a bad feeling about it.

I love the new Chaos and yes I played a cult army in the old one.  Hell I won the 'Ard Boyz semi's with the new dex, it can't be all that bad at all.

 

I don;t care how much you 'hate' the new Ork codex for fluff reasons or whatever, if it's as competitive as the new Chaos it's made out of pure win.  I really really want to see Orks stomping people in tournies.

I'm confused by some of the points costs. Why is a nob with powerclaw, twinlinked shooter and stikbombz almost 2 boys more expensive than a mega armoured nob, even though he has barely any save? Is slow and purposeful that much of a drawback?

(yeah, i'd probably never take a nob equipped like that, i'm just using it for comparison. I'm thinking nob wargear is very overcosted, especially seeing as meganobs look on the pricey side in the first place)

I've seen the new dex, and there are a couple of jacked up things that I've noticed about it....

1st, stormboyz are NOT fleet as was rumoured.  They may be fleet with zagstruck, I dont know, I wasnt able to see what he gives the mob but I thought it was only the deepstrike ability.  If he doesnt grant the fleet ability, then stormboyz are indeed NOT fleet as was rumoured.

 

....and get this, you CANNOT get powerclaw Nobs in Shoota units according to raw!  Here is the exact wording.

In the ork boyz selection under troops, boyz are equipped with slugga and choppa, check.

Under options, it says, that the ENTIRE MOB may replace their choppas and sluggas with shootaz.

...then under the character options, you may upgrade one boy to a Nob, fine.

...it then says that the Nob may replace his CHOPPA with one of the following, big choppa or power klaw.

Regardless of when you upgrade the Nob with a powerklaw (before or after the mob gets their shootas)  all of the requirements cannot be satisfied.

If you get shootas before you upgrade a Nob, he has only a shoota after you purchase a Nob, he has no choppa to trade in for a Power Klaw.  If you Upgrade the Nob with a powerklaw before you trade in the mob's choppas and sluggas for shootas, then you cant replace the ENTIRE MOB'S choppas and sluggas with shootas since the Nob doenst even have a Choppa anymore.

Nice proofreading GW.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 5:18 PM

I've seen the new dex, and there are a couple of jacked up things that I've noticed about it....

1st, stormboyz are NOT fleet as was rumoured.  They may be fleet with zagstruck, I dont know, I wasnt able to see what he gives the mob but I thought it was only the deepstrike ability.  If he doesnt grant the fleet ability, then stormboyz are indeed NOT fleet as was rumoured.

 

....and get this, you CANNOT get powerclaw Nobs in Shoota units according to raw!  Here is the exact wording.

In the ork boyz selection under troops, boyz are equipped with slugga and choppa, check.

Under options, it says, that the ENTIRE MOB may replace their choppas and sluggas with shootaz.

...then under the character options, you may upgrade one boy to a Nob, fine.

...it then says that the Nob may replace his CHOPPA with one of the following, big choppa or power klaw.

Regardless of when you upgrade the Nob with a powerklaw (before or after the mob gets their shootas)  all of the requirements cannot be satisfied.

If you get shootas before you upgrade a Nob, he has only a shoota after you purchase a Nob, he has no choppa to trade in for a Power Klaw.  If you Upgrade the Nob with a powerklaw before you trade in the mob's choppas and sluggas for shootas, then you cant replace the ENTIRE MOB'S choppas and sluggas with shootas since the Nob doenst even have a Choppa anymore.

Nice proofreading GW.

Well you see, the Nob trades in his Choppa for a Klaw, then the mob of boyz trade in their choppas and sluggas for shootaz. I fail to see the problem.

Posted By TragicNut on 10/30/2007 5:22 PM

Well you see, the Nob trades in his Choppa for a Klaw, then the mob of boyz trade in their choppas and sluggas for shootaz. I fail to see the problem.

...then you need to look closer.  When they say THE ENTIRE MOB does that not include the Nob?  He IS part of the Mob after all, it doenst specify boyz, it just says the entire mob.  Therin lies the problem.  The nob doesnt have a choppa anymore, therefore the ENTIRE MOB cant trade in their sluggaz and CHOPPAS for shootas.

clear enough?

The Stormboys don't fleet. their rokkitpacks allow them to move as jump infantry, but every time you move the unit you roll a d6. if you roll a 1 you take a csualty. the mob is them moved the 12" plus whatever you rolled. I presume this then allows you to shoot (or waaaargh) in the shooting phase

If someone tried to pull the crap about Nobz in shoota mobz not being able to buy upgraded weapons I think I'd hit them with the rulebook.

This is why people don't do RAW in many situations where it becomes absurd.

If this leaked codex is so rife that every second person has seen it, then why isn't it uploaded on bittorrent somewhere?
Ang0r! I want to see it goddammit

Posted By tRiXxX on 10/30/2007 6:44 PM
If this leaked codex is so rife that every second person has seen it, then why isn't it uploaded on bittorrent somewhere?
Ang0r! I want to see it goddammit

Your search-foo is weak.

Hrm... Just found it... after a cursory read, my thoughts:

Grabba Arms... all those eldar players are gonna cry... now, can you take it on anything other than the battlewagon & the looted wagon?

I also like that, since they decided to stick with the new format, they included the page reference for each unit in the army list. Now at least I know which page to flip to when I need to look up special rules.

Time to go poring through it now

Personally, I think it's fantastic. Can't wait to see it in action. It's going to be my first game when I get back from Baltimore.

Can't take the Klaw on anything fast, so I don't see it being overly useful. Way too easy to neutralize.

Not that it matters a ton, Lootas are a Falcons worst nightmare. As is the army of Rokkit or Kustom Mega Blasta toating stuff.

The problem is that the 'Wagon is generally not all that great. It's not terrible as a transport for 20 Boyz, but add the kill cannon and give it basic upgrades and you're looking at something between 165 - 185 points! No tracked vehicle is worth that, especially not a 24" gimped version of a Russ!

and I don't really see a problem of the Ork Nob not getting a klaw in shoota mobz. They are trading in their CC goodness for shooty. It would make a very big difference in which I would take if I can't have a power klaw with shooty boyz. It does make some sense.

Hey Voodoo,

I had a question for ya. Half jokingly, do you suspect that GW was monitoring things over here after the initial rumors leaked? Because I noticed some changes from the rumors to the actual codex that leads me to think possibly so.

1. Ghazgull?s Waagh is in place of your normal one. I remember quite a few people talking about a Ghazgull Horde?s fleeting twice. Not to be.
2. Transport battlewagons can?t take killcannons. This change from the rumors totally kills all those 8 battlewagon pie plate lists that got bandied about.
3. Boss Zagstruck is not nearly as cool as we thought. Loses his powerclaw after the first round, no fleet after the deep strike (Storm Boyz don?t Waagh!), so a deepstrike assault became a lot less potent and a lot more risky.
4. The strong things that survived the rumor purge (Boyz, Truks, killa kans) were all things people paid passing mention to, but didn?t seem to fawn over.

Maybe I?m just paranoid, but these specific changes from the rumors to the codex make me think someone was lurking over here and made edits accordingly. The truly ironic thing is that if this is the case, the game designer would have been better served by leaving things as is. A ?Phill Kelly Nugget? (as you so entertainingly coined) sells a lot of models and makes an army popular. I wonder how many people will give up their plans for ork armies once the true codex hits.

Not sure if they made any changes because of what transpired here, but it's already a known fact that GW does have at least some people that read (and once or twice post) on this forum.

So it is a possibility.

Nothing really changed at all.

Ghazgulls Waagh doesn't take up a Waaagh for the game (Ie. you can still call a normal one, just not a second one that turn). This is exactly how it was in Orkdom's summary.

Zaagstruk is not as good as we thought. I don't think that this was something that was "changed", but rather it was a mistake in the summary. Ditto on the whole "fleet" thing. They move an extra D6", but it's not "fleet" nor does it happen in the shooting phase. Again, a mistake in the summary of something that orkdom did not have on hand.

And I feel it's worth mentioning that he's still "decent", but his cost and ability is balanced to where he's not "broken" like many (especially myself) were thinking he was going to be based on the rumors that had a nice glaring omission about the PK going away.

Transport Wagons not taking Killkannons aren't all that big of a deal for me. Angron was the only person I saw who was interested by the idea and I didn't think that it made a competitive enough list anyway (being able to just kill Space Marine armies does not a top tier list make anymore). Besides, well kitted Wagons w/ Kill Kannonz are 185-190 Points. They're certainly not efficient like many were hoping, but again this wasn't something specified in the summary.

The big thing that people totally went nuts over was in fact the Shoota Boyz and the Trukks.

The Kanz are a nice surprise. The Kustom Mega Blasta on them is a no-brainer. BS3 AP2 shots at S8? For 5 more points than the Rokkit? Sign me up.

Lootas were a big deal, and still are. Everything else many of us who were really paying attention already alluded to (we knew the costs for Lootas, Tankbustas, Burnas, and their lack of transports). Take a look at my theory list in the "ork mob sizes" thread in tactics and the final list in the army section I've posted. It was almost 100% spot on, with the biggest change being zaagstruk not coming in.

The "Phil Kelly Nugget" is still in the dex, albeit he's balanced a lot of it pretty well. The dex has more choices that are "good" but not broken that make for fun armies, which is good. It's like playing Eldar without the Holofields+Spirit Stones. Great fun list, but not top tier.

But lets not forget, there ARE little nuggets of broken from Phil laying around the dex (Storm Boyz, Shootas w/ PK Nobz, Lootas). I see both KoS and the shooty horde being competitive armies, with the edge going to the horde because of skimmer lists (especially Tau).

The army is going to put a lot of lists right out of contention now, especially at 1500 Points or so. I see the Boyz becoming a very real spoiler army. Mech Eldar at 1500 points has nearly nothing out of the Falcons, and what they have in the Falcons will probably not make their points back against the kind of list I've posted. It's going to hurt them, a lot, or at least force a lot of change.

Zillas at 1500 will suffer from the fact that they can be tied up in CC pretty reliably and that Ork retaliatory shooting will be painful for them.

But this is getting away from your point. No, I don't think that the Developers saw reactions to the leaked rules and changed things. I'm 99% sure that this is the exact codex Orkdom saw rules wise. They really don't have a lot of leeway in terms of printing these things, so once it starts to get "out in the wild" I think things are fairly set in stone. I don't see anything in here that seriously discredits the summary or really alludes to the fact that rules were changed based on forum reaction to the rumors. The deltas are much more easily explained as oversights rather than subtle changes.

Just want to mention to everyone that you are discussing leaked copyrighted information, so please only speak in generalities and please do not post any actual statistics or points-values.

Most importantly any discussion on where to actually find the rules will result in a quick lock of the thread and temporary suspension of posting priveleges for whoever posts a link.


FYI, everything in this thread up to this point is fine, just a warning to anyone else jumping into the conversation.

My conspiracy theory has its first debunker . . . by definition that makes it true, right?

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 5:18 PM

I've seen the new dex, and there are a couple of jacked up things that I've noticed about it....

1st, stormboyz are NOT fleet as was rumoured.  They may be fleet with zagstruck, I dont know, I wasnt able to see what he gives the mob but I thought it was only the deepstrike ability.  If he doesnt grant the fleet ability, then stormboyz are indeed NOT fleet as was rumoured.

You're right, they got something better than fleet (cause they can still use it and shoot on the same turn they charge!).

 

 

Phryxis:

 

Your post has been deleted because you ignored my warnings and posted points values. If you do it again, your account will be temporarily suspended.

 

--yakface

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 5:28 PM

Posted By TragicNut on 10/30/2007 5:22 PM

Well you see, the Nob trades in his Choppa for a Klaw, then the mob of boyz trade in their choppas and sluggas for shootaz. I fail to see the problem.

...then you need to look closer.  When they say THE ENTIRE MOB does that not include the Nob?  He IS part of the Mob after all, it doenst specify boyz, it just says the entire mob.  Therin lies the problem.  The nob doesnt have a choppa anymore, therefore the ENTIRE MOB cant trade in their sluggaz and CHOPPAS for shootas.

clear enough?

Actually it's not..... you give the nob a power klaw, replacing his choppa, then the entire mob replaces all remaining choppas and sluggas with shootas..... the nob doesn't have a choppa anymore, therefore he doesn't trade it in. The ENTIRE MOB is still trading in all of their choppas and sluggas.

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 8:30 PM

Just want to mention to everyone that you are discussing leaked copyrighted information, so please only speak in generalities and please do not post any actual statistics or points-values.

Most importantly any discussion on where to actually find the rules will result in a quick lock of the thread and temporary suspension of posting priveleges for whoever posts a link.

I don't 'spose you'd have a problem with another Cover-2-Cover review right Yak? Afterall, I did that long before the Chaos Codex was out...

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/30/2007 9:58 PM

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 8:30 PM

Just want to mention to everyone that you are discussing leaked copyrighted information, so please only speak in generalities and please do not post any actual statistics or points-values.

Most importantly any discussion on where to actually find the rules will result in a quick lock of the thread and temporary suspension of posting priveleges for whoever posts a link.

I don't 'spose you'd have a problem with another Cover-2-Cover review right Yak? Afterall, I did that long before the Chaos Codex was out...

BYE

 

You did that with an actual (legally bought) copy of the codex, IIRC. There's no way to do a "cover-to-cover" reveiw of the Ork codex currently as we don't know what will actually be in the codex, and the PDF doesn't contain even contain all the pages in the codex.

In short, no it would not be acceptable to do a review of the PDF as a review of the codex and if you are simply reviewing the PDF it would be pretty tricky to discuss anything in detail without giving away huge swathes of the rules.

Posted By Angron on 10/30/2007 9:52 PM
The ENTIRE MOB is still trading in all of their choppas and sluggas.

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

"The entire mob may replace their choppas and sluggas with shootas"

since one model has no choppa...no shootas.

I'm not really saying I agree with this interpretation, but I thought I would throw it out there for the hardcore RAW fans as I think this might be the interpretation that they will see once the book comes out.

I see what you mean though Angron, its just that I think that the other codeii word it better when such a situation comes up.

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 10:10 PM

You did that with an actual (legally bought) copy of the codex, IIRC. There's no way to do a "cover-to-cover" reveiw of the Ork codex currently as we don't know what will actually be in the codex, and the PDF doesn't contain even contain all the pages in the codex.

In short, no it would not be acceptable to do a review of the PDF as a review of the codex and if you are simply reviewing the PDF it would be pretty tricky to discuss anything in detail without giving away huge swathes of the rules.

As it happens, I didn't write that with a copy of the Codex in hand, I did it with a PDF. I got the Codex a week later in the army box.

And the pages this version appears to be missing are:

1. Any pages of just artwork, no text.
2. The colour section (oh, such a big loss).
3. And - and I'm sure everyone will find this ironic - the summary page.

I can still review the Codex, and if you take care to read my review of the Chaos one, you can hardly build a list from what I've written there. Chances are there are posts on Warseer that allow you to better play with the new Ork Codex than any review of mine would include.

BYE

H.B.M.C. If you've already got it written, PM it to me if you would.  I thought your Chaos reveiw was great even if I didnt quite agree with it all.

...after all, you were just pissed at the power loss..... j/k

Posted By Recklessfable on 10/30/2007 6:48 PM

Posted By tRiXxX on 10/30/2007 6:44 PM
If this leaked codex is so rife that every second person has seen it, then why isn't it uploaded on bittorrent somewhere?
Ang0r! I want to see it goddammit

Your search-foo is weak.

got it now
nice call lol
i feel like such a nub

All right, just to recap, this codex is apparently the bees' knees? I understand Slugga Boyz and Grots are bad enough to be useless in competitive lists?

After reading the new Ork Codex I can say it seems to be great addition to 40K. It has some huge fixes (Trukks!) without being overly powerful. It will definately produce some competitive armies. Noone seems to be forced to play either all footsloggers or all mounted Orks.

The Trukk special rule is how all mounted units should work in 40K. Getting entangled once your ride is popped is simply too much. For Orks now it will be enough to get one movement phase out of the Trukk and the boys are hitting home next turn no matter what (as long as there are footslogging enemy targets available). The compromise of Boys in wrecked Trukks getting wounded on 5's is a nice touch. Grot riggers working in the shooting phase makes them less cheesy than before but still nice -- Also a nice touch.

So how will these Orks fare against Lash Chaos, mech Eldar and Godzilla? I think all of those three have a good chance of defeating the Orks as the lists certainly has its counters but I wouldn't ever rule out the Orks again. All in all they might bring a breath of life to the tournament scene.

Someone will eventually build an Ork version of Godzilla etc, but the list seems to have enough flexibility to avoid falling into a pigeonhole. If you make an all mounted Trukk and Wagon assault, mobile Eldar and Tau will be able to pick up a lot of VPs from the fragile vehicles and then try to deal with the small Ork mobs one by one. If you make an all footslogger list, the mech Eldar will have to play for a draw or a minor victory since there's simply too many models to effectively wipe out for such a small elite force, but can a slow footslogger Ork horde really withstand the Devourer/Obliterator onslaught and have enough models alive during turn four to deal with the Nid/Chaos assault elements? As it stands I think not. Devourers wipe out entire mobs and the smaller Chaos firepower is compensated by the fact that there are two Chaos models moving Ork mobs back each turn. If it so happens that a mixed approach proves to be the most effective one then Phil Kelly can consider his job well done.

Heh. Look at the paragraph on Golgotha on page 19. The Squats have not been forgotten!

The date on the scan is in July...So I really doubt anything has changed since the rumors...

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/31/2007 1:26 AM
Heh. Look at the paragraph on Golgotha on page 19. The Squats have not been forgotten!

The book mentions the S-word? That'd certainly be unusual.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/30/2007 8:26 PM
Nothing really changed at all.

Ghazgulls Waagh doesn't take up a Waaagh for the game (Ie. you can still call a normal one, just not a second one that turn). This is exactly how it was in Orkdom's summary.

Re-read it.  Ghazgull's Waagh replaces the normal one.

what's so great about shoota boyz vs. slugga boyz? i keep hearing that they're great now, but haven't heard why yet.

I was wrong on the Waaagh for Ghazgull, over-enthusiasm for the new dex and late night re-reading of his rules got to me. Sorry for the mistake.

The great thing about Shootas vs. Sluggas is that Shootas are now 18" S4 AP6 Assault 2. They don't need to be in CC to start doing Decent damage to enemy units, and pose a pretty potent shooting threat, especially combined with Rokkits.

what's so great about shoota boyz vs. slugga boyz

Shootas are now like Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults (not quite as good AP).

Very happy to hear that Codex rks isn't the fest of broken I thought it was shaping up to be. Glad that fun units are in, and the build-a-looted-vehicle entry sounds like good stuff. Also pleased that Zag won't be in every list ala Eldrad Alwaystaken

- Salvage

I think the "build your own looted vehichle" could be the start of something hot. I had mentioned something similar as a good option for LatD "local flavor" vehicles. If it doesn't end up being silly broken, it might be a good start for an extremely flexible army make up for LatD, representing the plethora of traitors and PDF forces using their own non-stc vehicles. That would be a great deal of fun, and perhaps might lead to a demi-VDR sort of set up. Fingers are crossed.

Note that I haven't actually seen the entry or how in-depth it is, but I wonder at such a complex unit existing in the Nü Gee-Dub Focus on simplicity (look at the Chaos vehicle upgrades to see the apocalypse that this is for vehicles). It seems that Kelly alone is allowed to chunk out entries with enormous amounts of upgrades - the carnifex and now this build-a-vehicle.

So cross another set of fingers that Kelly gets to write LatD, in addition to it being written at all

- Salvage

If only I were polydactyl!

It is really wierd though how there are practically two different design teams. Maybe Kelly has an office across town, and so the two groups never really work on things together.

Ok, and everyone has to exchange their normal clothing for a prison jumpsuit before they can get into prison. But if you show up naked, they're not going to let you go.

I think everyone sees your point, but to argue that it's the RAW is not correct. The wording here is a bit ambiguous. I don't think anybody is going to notice.



And a weapon summary? Or did I just miss it?



If by "useless" you mean "mandatory" then yes. They're the only two Troops choices, so you need at least two. Unless you mean Slugga Boyz as opposed to Shoota Boyz.

Honestly, I think two Trukks full of Slugga Boyz seems like a real solid choice. The Trukk rules are very, very favorable now, what with the chance to turn a wreck into an even faster and more successful assault. Never in my life has the term "Ramshackle" seemed so positive.



No question they improved Shootas, but I don't get this undercurrent of Shoota Worship I think I'm hearing. Brian Nelson may have made the Shoota, but the Shoota isn't Brian Nelson, you don't worship it.

Seriously tho, why give up CC attacks? It's where the Orks are doing their best work. I'd rather have another Furious Charge attack at Orky WS than another shooting attack at Orky BS.  It's not the end of the world, the Shoota Boyz will still be solid in CC, especially now that the choppa is not adding any major benefit, but I think I'd rather my Orks could get the big bulk of CC attacks they need to compensate for their horrid I score.


HEEYYYYYY!!! Am I correct that they took away my Looted Russ? I don't see it in the list right now.

Posted By Phryxis on 10/31/2007 8:12 AM

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

Ok, and everyone has to exchange their normal clothing for a prison jumpsuit before they can get into prison. But if you show up naked, they're not going to let you go.

I think everyone sees your point, but to argue that it's the RAW is not correct. The wording here is a bit ambiguous. I don't think anybody is going to notice.

And the pages this version appears to be missing are

And a weapon summary? Or did I just miss it?

I understand Slugga Boyz and Grots are bad enough to be useless in competitive lists?

If by "useless" you mean "mandatory" then yes. They're the only two Troops choices, so you need at least two. Unless you mean Slugga Boyz as opposed to Shoota Boyz.

Honestly, I think two Trukks full of Slugga Boyz seems like a real solid choice. The Trukk rules are very, very favorable now, what with the chance to turn a wreck into an even faster and more successful assault. Never in my life has the term "Ramshackle" seemed so positive.

Shootas are now like Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults

No question they improved Shootas, but I don't get this undercurrent of Shoota Worship I think I'm hearing. Brian Nelson may have made the Shoota, but the Shoota isn't Brian Nelson, you don't worship it.

Seriously tho, why give up CC attacks? It's where the Orks are doing their best work. I'd rather have another Furious Charge attack at Orky WS than another shooting attack at Orky BS.  It's not the end of the world, the Shoota Boyz will still be solid in CC, especially now that the choppa is not adding any major benefit, but I think I'd rather my Orks could get the big bulk of CC attacks they need to compensate for their horrid I score.


HEEYYYYYY!!! Am I correct that they took away my Looted Russ? I don't see it in the list right now.

It's basically the enclosed looted Wagon with a Boomcannon (the illustration even shows a Russ), I guess we can assume that when the Mek loots it, he tears out some of the armor.

Or you can always take an enclosed Battlewagon with a Killacannon. Of course it costs more than a Russ, has a worse gun than the Russ, has weaker side armor than a Russ, and a BS of 2, but at least it can carry 12 models (not to useful, I know).

Honestly, I think I'll be playing my looted Russ as a an enclosed looted Wagon. It really isn't too bad a deal for the gun it carries. You just need to make sure you take lots of Trukks so your opponent doesn't have an easy choice of what to shoot at.

So does the nob loose his slugga when the mob gives up slugga and chopa? Does he have a shoota and klaw while the slugga boyz nob gets klaw and slugga?

Looted Wagon is basically where all the old Leman Russ's and Basilisks go.

I kinda figured most looted vehicles start their orky existence as battlefield salvage, hence the dinked armor making sense - the rokkits what downed it have to have left some mark!

- Salvage

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 10:12 PM

Posted By Angron on 10/30/2007 9:52 PM
The ENTIRE MOB is still trading in all of their choppas and sluggas.

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

"The entire mob may replace their choppas and sluggas with shootas"

since one model has no choppa...no shootas.

I'm not really saying I agree with this interpretation, but I thought I would throw it out there for the hardcore RAW fans as I think this might be the interpretation that they will see once the book comes out.

I see what you mean though Angron, its just that I think that the other codeii word it better when such a situation comes up.

I know you do Deadshane, we both agree, ork players are still going to bring them, we're just arguing RAW, and I'm not done argueing. It just says "the ENTIRE MOB", it doesn't say "EVERY MODEL IN THE MOB MUST REPLACE THEIR CHOPPAS", so as long as all choppas in the mob, not every model, are accounted for, RAW seems to be satisfied.

I agree with Angron. This is faulty logic.


If you have a classroom full of kids and you make a rue that says: the entire classroom must exchange their pens for pencils, if there are any kids in the classroom who don't have pens the entire exchange isn't suddenly invalidated, rather the kids who don't have pens just don't exchange them for pencils.

The only thing that would make any difference in this discussion is if there were an order to it. If you go down the list in order, it cannot be done. Otherwise there is no real issue. Using the logic above, if I took rokkits and shootas before exchanging for shootas I couldn't do it as they no longer have the slugga to trade in.

But it almost does seem like there is an order to how you do things. You work down the list outfitting as you go. To do it this way you could not give a Nob in a shoota squad a powerklaw, any other way he can.

I just find it odd that they are very specific in most of the entries, and even that entry to say exactly what you can and can't replace.

When you upgrade to a heavier weapon, they make certain and say slugga or shoota

I agree that a nob can be upgraded before the mob swaps for shootas. I think that there is history, intent, and a desire to not screw over hobbyists to justify an incredibly precise reading of the rule, especially since a casual reading of the rules would result in the same outcome. First off, why no heavy weapon, or even combi weapon upgrade for shooy nobs? The models are out there, unless GW want's all non-HtH nobs to be re-designated Flash Gitz.

What worries me isn't some guy claiming that shoota nobs can't have claws. Even the tournaments I go to (I live in the Cleveland Ohio area) tend to be pretty low key, with no rules fascists (I hate using the word Nazi to describe anybody that isn't a National Socialist).

What does worry me is GW in a year of so finally dropping an FAQ that says, "You must swap weapons before all other upgrades." Is it just me, or is that enough of a fear to justify holding off on building an Ork army?

I sadly still don't think Kommandos are worth it, even though I will still field them.

There are too many selections per org that really compete with each other. I am having a hard time coming up with any kind of list.

It really seems to follow the basic pattern most other armies have taken. Klaws are expensive, along with most heavy weapons (like rokkits) went up in points.

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 9:02 AM
I agree that a nob can be upgraded before the mob swaps for shootas. I think that there is history, intent, and a desire to not screw over hobbyists to justify an incredibly precise reading of the rule, especially since a casual reading of the rules would result in the same outcome. First off, why no heavy weapon, or even combi weapon upgrade for shooy nobs? The models are out there, unless GW want's all non-HtH nobs to be re-designated Flash Gitz.

What worries me isn't some guy claiming that shoota nobs can't have claws. Even the tournaments I go to (I live in the Cleveland Ohio area) tend to be pretty low key, with no rules fascists (I hate using the word Nazi to describe anybody that isn't a National Socialist).

What does worry me is GW in a year of so finally dropping an FAQ that says, "You must swap weapons before all other upgrades." Is it just me, or is that enough of a fear to justify holding off on building an Ork army?

The whole Tyranid Warrior style FAQ coming out is something that scares me when I think about this.

It makes me want to build a KoS styled army without using "the horde" approach. You can always use PK Nobz, what I don't want to end up with is 64 Shoota Boyz models who will suddenly become not worth fielding without their PK Nob.

I think we should be safe though.

Posted By Toreador on 10/31/2007 9:07 AM
I sadly still don't think Kommandos are worth it, even though I will still field them.

There are too many selections per org that really compete with each other. I am having a hard time coming up with any kind of list.

It really seems to follow the basic pattern most other armies have taken. Klaws are expensive, along with most heavy weapons (like rokkits) went up in points.

Kommandos are good at what they were fore before - Minimum sized units used to infiltrate with Rokkits and get shots off at vehicles, specifically skimmers on turn 1 that haven't moved yet.

5 Boyz and 2 Rokkits works out cheap as chips.  Problem is they compete against Lootas, which are a better choice.albeit for a different roll.

Plus you can take burnas in the unit.  If you want to be fluffy and use big mobz of them then sit them behind some cover for area denial, stay put on turn 1 and use the Waaagh move to get them into assault on turn 2.

Posted By Phryxis on 10/31/2007 8:12 AM

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

Ok, and everyone has to exchange their normal clothing for a prison jumpsuit before they can get into prison. But if you show up naked, they're not going to let you go.

I think everyone sees your point, but to argue that it's the RAW is not correct. The wording here is a bit ambiguous. I don't think anybody is going to notice.

And the pages this version appears to be missing are

And a weapon summary? Or did I just miss it?

I understand Slugga Boyz and Grots are bad enough to be useless in competitive lists?

If by "useless" you mean "mandatory" then yes. They're the only two Troops choices, so you need at least two. Unless you mean Slugga Boyz as opposed to Shoota Boyz.

Honestly, I think two Trukks full of Slugga Boyz seems like a real solid choice. The Trukk rules are very, very favorable now, what with the chance to turn a wreck into an even faster and more successful assault. Never in my life has the term "Ramshackle" seemed so positive.

Shootas are now like Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults

No question they improved Shootas, but I don't get this undercurrent of Shoota Worship I think I'm hearing. Brian Nelson may have made the Shoota, but the Shoota isn't Brian Nelson, you don't worship it.

Seriously tho, why give up CC attacks? It's where the Orks are doing their best work. I'd rather have another Furious Charge attack at Orky WS than another shooting attack at Orky BS.  It's not the end of the world, the Shoota Boyz will still be solid in CC, especially now that the choppa is not adding any major benefit, but I think I'd rather my Orks could get the big bulk of CC attacks they need to compensate for their horrid I score.


HEEYYYYYY!!! Am I correct that they took away my Looted Russ? I don't see it in the list right now.

It's because you're not "giving up" anything.... you're exchanging. Normally when a slugga boy charges into combat, he first fires his slugga for one STR 4 attack that hits on 5's, and then makes 4 STR 4 attacks that hit on 4's. With the shoota, he fires first, making two STR 4 attacks that hit on 5's, and then makes 3 STR 4 attacks which his on 4's...... he's exchanging -1 to hit on one attack for a longer range weapon that pumps out more shots.

So those 128 shots are suddenly not viable anymore without the PK nob? Interesting.

After looking through most of the entries, I am really coming to the conclusion that things are bought in order from the list, and it is very specific about what can and can't be exchanged because of this order. I am not sure then if the boyz nob PK issue is an oversight or meant to be. I can really see it either way.

The only thing I don't like so much is that you can't upgrade the weapons with kustom jobs on any of the nobz and hq choices anymore. It's a minor quible though, otherwise I think the codex is superb. The fluff and look of the in progress pdf is just amazing. The PK issue seems to be the only rule that doesn't seem too clear, which is good for any book they put out.

Posted By Toreador on 10/31/2007 9:26 AM
So those 128 shots are suddenly not viable anymore without the PK nob? Interesting.

After looking through most of the entries, I am really coming to the conclusion that things are bought in order from the list, and it is very specific about what can and can't be exchanged because of this order. I am not sure then if the boyz nob PK issue is an oversight or meant to be. I can really see it either way.

The only thing I don't like so much is that you can't upgrade the weapons with kustom jobs on any of the nobz and hq choices anymore. It's a minor quible though, otherwise I think the codex is superb. The fluff and look of the in progress pdf is just amazing. The PK issue seems to be the only rule that doesn't seem too clear, which is good for any book they put out.

Not for tournament lists I don't think they are.  The PK Nob is what makes the unit a serious threat in every phase of the game, for just about any unit. 

Shoota Boyz are problems for Zilla Nids because there's a ton of them, and once the big bugs get close enough to fire, they risk getting charged by a Waaging Shoota Boy mob supporting whatever they shoot at.  Take out the PK Nob and Shootas stop being that kind of threat.

Posted By Toreador on 10/31/2007 9:26 AM
So those 128 shots are suddenly not viable anymore without the PK nob? Interesting.

After looking through most of the entries, I am really coming to the conclusion that things are bought in order from the list, and it is very specific about what can and can't be exchanged because of this order. I am not sure then if the boyz nob PK issue is an oversight or meant to be. I can really see it either way.

The only thing I don't like so much is that you can't upgrade the weapons with kustom jobs on any of the nobz and hq choices anymore. It's a minor quible though, otherwise I think the codex is superb. The fluff and look of the in progress pdf is just amazing. The PK issue seems to be the only rule that doesn't seem too clear, which is good for any book they put out.

There is no indication whatsoever that upgrades are done in any sort of order. Any such restriction you imagine is completely self-imposed.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/31/2007 9:18 AM

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 9:02 AM
I agree that a nob can be upgraded before the mob swaps for shootas. I think that there is history, intent, and a desire to not screw over hobbyists to justify an incredibly precise reading of the rule, especially since a casual reading of the rules would result in the same outcome. First off, why no heavy weapon, or even combi weapon upgrade for shooy nobs? The models are out there, unless GW want's all non-HtH nobs to be re-designated Flash Gitz.

What worries me isn't some guy claiming that shoota nobs can't have claws. Even the tournaments I go to (I live in the Cleveland Ohio area) tend to be pretty low key, with no rules fascists (I hate using the word Nazi to describe anybody that isn't a National Socialist).

What does worry me is GW in a year of so finally dropping an FAQ that says, "You must swap weapons before all other upgrades." Is it just me, or is that enough of a fear to justify holding off on building an Ork army?

The whole Tyranid Warrior style FAQ coming out is something that scares me when I think about this.

It makes me want to build a KoS styled army without using "the horde" approach. You can always use PK Nobz, what I don't want to end up with is 64 Shoota Boyz models who will suddenly become not worth fielding without their PK Nob.

I think we should be safe though.

Tyranid Warrior style FAQ? I think I missed something, the current 'nid FAQ has nothing specifically about warriors in it.

Some of the new short stories are pretty hilarious in the new book as well. Lots of new art.

Posted By TragicNut on 10/31/2007 9:57 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/31/2007 9:18 AM

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 9:02 AM
I agree that a nob can be upgraded before the mob swaps for shootas. I think that there is history, intent, and a desire to not screw over hobbyists to justify an incredibly precise reading of the rule, especially since a casual reading of the rules would result in the same outcome. First off, why no heavy weapon, or even combi weapon upgrade for shooy nobs? The models are out there, unless GW want's all non-HtH nobs to be re-designated Flash Gitz.

What worries me isn't some guy claiming that shoota nobs can't have claws. Even the tournaments I go to (I live in the Cleveland Ohio area) tend to be pretty low key, with no rules fascists (I hate using the word Nazi to describe anybody that isn't a National Socialist).

What does worry me is GW in a year of so finally dropping an FAQ that says, "You must swap weapons before all other upgrades." Is it just me, or is that enough of a fear to justify holding off on building an Ork army?

The whole Tyranid Warrior style FAQ coming out is something that scares me when I think about this.

It makes me want to build a KoS styled army without using "the horde" approach. You can always use PK Nobz, what I don't want to end up with is 64 Shoota Boyz models who will suddenly become not worth fielding without their PK Nob.

I think we should be safe though.

Tyranid Warrior style FAQ? I think I missed something, the current 'nid FAQ has nothing specifically about warriors in it.

When it was first released it stated that Tyranid Warriors could be instant killed by weapons that were greater than double their toughness.  So they wouldn't be instakilled by a Missile Launcher, but would by a Lascannon or Railgun.  All because of a stupid RAW interpretation of the Nid Codex and the attitude that players should use RAW, even in such silly situations where the interpretation becomes rediculous.

It caused a massive negative reaction in the player base from both Tyranid Players and non Nid players alike, and GW revised the FAQ to what we have now.

I'd love to see the art. I can wait on the rules...

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 10/31/2007 2:07 AM

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/31/2007 1:26 AM
Heh. Look at the paragraph on Golgotha on page 19. The Squats have not been forgotten!

The book mentions the S-word? That'd certainly be unusual.

  No, it doesn't mention the S-word.  It just refers to the stunties obliquely.  The "abhumans" with their "war colossi."

When it was first released it stated that Tyranid Warriors could be instant killed by weapons that were greater than double their toughness.  So they wouldn't be instakilled by a Missile Launcher, but would by a Lascannon or Railgun.  All because of a stupid RAW interpretation of the Nid Codex and the attitude that players should use RAW, even in such silly situations where the interpretation becomes rediculous.

It caused a massive negative reaction in the player base from both Tyranid Players and non Nid players alike, and GW revised the FAQ to what we have now.

So there is a certain amount of precedent for FAQ's eventually being revised to reflect the will of the people.  Since GW isn't stupid, and wants to sell lots of boys, I'm guessing they'll allow nobs to take the claw.

And I totally agree with Yak: there simply is nothing that prohibits the work around of buying a claw, then swapping.  Since there is zero reason to think that the designers did not want PK Nobs in shootas, and since GW, bless it's heart, simply does not have a great history of being that precise in it's language, I see no reason to not allow it.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/30/2007 9:58 PM

I don't 'spose you'd have a problem with another Cover-2-Cover review right Yak? Afterall, I did that long before the Chaos Codex was out...

BYE

I would be interested in seeing this. even if it was just a pm of sorts.

Question on the Waaagh "feat" - When you use it once per game, does every ork unit have to fleet instead of shooting? I guess the Waaagh can be selective and just launch forward burnas / sluggas / killy orks and let lootas chill and maybe press their triggers down harder ......

- Salvage

They simply gain the fleet of foot USR. They do not "have to" fleet and can still shoot.

Proper Waaagh usage will determine the game for Orks or not many times, depending on the build you're using. Knowing when to trigger it is something that will differentiate good Warbosses from poor ones, and it will make the amry fun to use.

Excited!This has cheered me up after a horrible week.

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 10/31/2007 7:42 AM
So cross another set of fingers that Kelly gets to write LatD, in addition to it being written at all

Hmm.  If we take up a collection among LatD players, do you think we could bribe Phil Kelly into becoming the studio champion for LatD? 

Seriously though, Orks sound great.  I may end up using the Ork rules for my Genestealer Cult.

The first time I have someone argue to an official GW ref at a grand tourney that my list is illegal because he interprets it that nobs in shoota mobs cant have klaws, and that ref agrees, will be the last time I ever give a damn about GW.  If they made that ruling, the would lose alot of ork fans, and were not that numerous to begin with.  Like the guy who argued that shrike could be used in his blood raven space marine army-whom he was playing as vanilla marines.  They were STILL blood ravens, but using basic marine rules.  They let it slide.  Lets all play bend the rules to our advantage!

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 11:53 AM
The first time I have someone argue to an official GW ref at a grand tourney that my list is illegal because he interprets it that nobs in shoota mobs cant have klaws, and that ref agrees, will be the last time I ever give a damn about GW.  If they made that ruling, the would lose alot of ork fans, and were not that numerous to begin with.  Like the guy who argued that shrike could be used in his blood raven space marine army-whom he was playing as vanilla marines.  They were STILL blood ravens, but using basic marine rules.  They let it slide.  Lets all play bend the rules to our advantage!

Huh?

The Marine Codex is clear that you can use the generic list to represent Imperial Fists, Blood Ravens, Crimson Fists, etc. That guy in your example was playing both within the letter and the spirit of the rules.

Yep, any order is just imagined by me, but reading entries in the HQ list, it looks to me to be more ordered in that way. But either way there is nothing stated how anything is taken from the list, order or not, so anything can be assumed. Sometimes we have no idea, or remote clue what there intent on anything is until they clarify, and even then they can be vague. I can easily see both sides to the argument. There is reason for and for against.

In the same vein it looks like nobz can take big shootas and rokkits in most cases. You can upgrade a boy to a weapon and then upgrade that boy to a nob. I don't see anything stopping it, but it doesn't give you the extra weapon like it used to.

and the PK in or not in a mob is not exactly a game breaking problem. It's a minor quibble.

the pk in a shoota mob is a pretty big deal, actually. of course, deadshane's "interpretation" is pretty strained, and I think it takes a pretty twisted interpretation to reach his conclusion, so I'm not really worried. it reads "the entire mob may replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas". so what do you do? you buy the slugga mob, you buy the nob, you replace his choppa with a powerklaw, and then you replace the sluggas and choppas with shootas. the nob doesn't have a slugga and choppa, so he doesn't replace it with a shoota.

by deadshane's logic, nobs in shoota mobs *must* have *only* a a shoota, but by his logic, a mob with *any* heavy weapons upgrades invalidates the slugga/shoota exchange. after all, if you have a rokkit and you're in a slugga mob, then when you do the exchange, he doesn't have a slugga and choppa either and therefore can't take a shoota. would that, by RAW, make any sense?

also, are the dakkaguns on bikes twinlinked or not? they're S5 ap5 assault 3 according to the book, and the first half calls them "noisy twin-linked dakkaguns", but no mention of them being twin-linked is made thereafter. the models show twin-linked guns, the last rules had them as twin-linked, but the unit entry doesn't say that they are

Man o man that was great. Great fluff, great art, great sense of humour. Hands down the best GW product in recent years. Phil, I love you man.

In an obtuse way I can sort of see his point, but just barely. It does not state that they all "have" to have choppa and slugga for it to work though. I can't assume that far

Yeah, I noticed that too, not sure what to make of it. do the noisy twin-linked guns have that profile and are twin linked, or have that profile because they are twin linked. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What I love most is the sense of humour throughout. It was exactly what I would have hoped for.
As for the list, it looks at least on par with Chaos from a quick read (though I'll admit I'm no top tier player).

Yeah, my coworkers have been asking me all morning what is wrong as I keep laughing out loud. The stories have had me close to a falling out of my chair.

Yeah, it looks like they saved nearly everything that was good from the old 1st edition fluff, and threw in the spore reproduction method from Gorkamorka, and background from the last twenty years of 40K. I noticed this sort of thing in the Tyranid Codex, too. It's kind of nice that GW has stopped trying to reinvent themselves every edition.

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 11:53 AM
The first time I have someone argue to an official GW ref at a grand tourney that my list is illegal because he interprets it that nobs in shoota mobs cant have klaws, and that ref agrees, will be the last time I ever give a damn about GW.  If they made that ruling, the would lose alot of ork fans, and were not that numerous to begin with.  Like the guy who argued that shrike could be used in his blood raven space marine army-whom he was playing as vanilla marines.  They were STILL blood ravens, but using basic marine rules.  They let it slide.  Lets all play bend the rules to our advantage!

I'm the one that brought that up about the Nobs, but I totally agree with you.  To me the wording just looks like a total rules lawyer can interpret it that way.

The example put forth about the heavy weapons doenst really apply, since the entry states that you can trade in your slugga OR shoota for said heavy weapons.

In order to see my point, you have to actually have the entry in front of you and read it with a totally closed mind.  Someone who says Nobs cannot have powerklaws may have a valid arguement however.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ork boyz entry, all boyz equipped with slugga and choppa

exact wording: "The ENTIRE MOB may replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas"

Character entry:  "One boy may be upgraded to a Nob"

His options: "He may replace his CHOPPA (not choppa or shoota as the heavy weapons states) with one of the following:  'Uge Choppa....X pts, Power Klaw....X pts."

Conclusion, if you upgrade the boyz with shootas first, the Nob has no Choppa to trade for a PowerKlaw,  If you upgrade the Nob first, you cannot give the ENTIRE mob shootas because the nob no longer has the choppa/slugga combo to trade, and he IS part of the mob. 

In my opinion, it seems almost the same to me as people claiming that bolt pistols cannot fire and then charge in the same turn if the model has a 'slung' boltgun.  It's that sort of rules interpretation, but it IS there.  Do I agree with it?  No.  Will I enforce it? No. Will others?  I wouldnt be surprised....people out there DO enforce the bolt pistol rule after all.

Except it's not the same. For BPs, the rules are pretty clear: no model that carries a rapid fire weapon my fire and then assault. It's dumb, but the RAW is clear that it can't be done.

Here, the rules aren't clear. You can upgrade a nob, give him a claw, and then replace slugga/choppas with shootas. What is interesting is what happens to the Nobs slugga: does it swap to a shoota, leaving the claw? Does he keep the slugga because you may only swap a "slugga and choppa" for a shoota?

Finally, even the languages "the entire mob may replace their..." is a little ambigous. Does it mean "you may have every model replace" or does it mean "any model in the mob may replace"?

I never understood the whole oil/water situation with shootas and sluggas in the first place. Trukk boys in the old dex could take both freely, and that option seems to have disappeared, unless the horrendously vague language really does mean you can mix and match. Personally, I think it'd be really sweet to have ~10 slugga boys at the front with another 10 shoota boys pouring fire behind them.

Ok, I've read it. I like it a lot. I think it's funny, it's clever, and shoota nobs aside, it seems very cleanly written.

While i'm not horribly impressed with battlewagons as gunboats, are they worth considering as pure transports? Assume red paint, frag assault and extra armor... I mean stikk bomb chukkas and armor plates, gort riggers and a single big shoota as insurance against Weapon Destroyed. You're looking at a tank that's under 130pts, can claim a table quarter (if not bought as an upgrade) and can hold a 20 man mob of boys... all of whom can shoot out of it! I'm guessing it's not going to be reliable enough to replace numbers of trukks, but taking three of them, with two mobs of boys on the flanks and Nobs in the middle can really crash some lines, as least in casual play.

'Do the burny dance.' I just fell over laughing.

While I hate to bring up this, someone with a better grasp of the rules may shine some light on this issue:

By the rules, it looks like Big Meks can have a Kustom Force Field and a Burna, or a Shokk Attack Gun and a Burna, or Mega Armor and a Burna.

Does the Burna or the KFF not count as 2-handed weapons anymore? It does not seem so, but maybe there's a rule I'm forgetting in the Big Black Book.

Also, Warbikers seem to get 2 close combat weapons, so it appears they can use them both while on a bike...

I think the Kustom Force Field is worn on the Meks back.
Not so sure about the Shokk attack gun.

The Runtherd musing about Warp travel and "negotiations" between Ork and Plantary Governor actually had me laughing out loud too!

The warp travel bit is one of my favourites too. I actually dragged my housemate out of the sitting room to read it.

After reading the Ork Boyz entry again I'm quite sure the Nob cannot get a power klaw if the unit is equipped with shootas. This is probably intentional too since that way shootas won't be a no-brainer for both footslogging AND mounted Ork units.

Doesn't matter what way you look at the rule. The entire mob either has sluggas and choppas, or shootas, and the Nob can only swap a choppa with a power klaw.


I don't usually try to enforce slowed rules but when you think of the consequences of applying the said rule they aren't so bad. All it means is that close combat units take sluggas and choppas like always before and then get klaws, and shoota boys focus on shooting.

If you're right, it's gonna make shoota boys pretty much obsolete. Or at least, they won't have any nobs with them. There'd be no point, as they can't take any upgrades.

I love this book.

Yes, it's strange of me to say something like that, but I really do love this Codex. Orks are back! They have character, and flair. They're funny again without being the punchline of the 40K universe.

Even the much-maligned wargear section - y'know, the bit that shows Jervis' son the difference between a Chainsword and a Land Raider - has funny comments about the weapons. Great stuff.

I have a feeling my review is going to be far more positive than my Chaos one.

BYE

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 4:32 PM
After reading the Ork Boyz entry again I'm quite sure the Nob cannot get a power klaw if the unit is equipped with shootas. This is probably intentional too since that way shootas won't be a no-brainer for both footslogging AND mounted Ork units.

Doesn't matter what way you look at the rule. The entire mob either has sluggas and choppas, or shootas, and the Nob can only swap a choppa with a power klaw.

Do I agree with it? No. Will I enforce it? No.

I don't usually try to enforce slowed rules but when you think of the consequences of applying the said rule they aren't so bad. All it means is that close combat units take sluggas and choppas like always before and then get klaws, and shoota boys focus on shooting.

You cant really grasp the concequences of taking the ability to field powerklaws out of every squad unless you have been playing orks for years.  It would absolutely make them bottom tier status.  Instead of imperial guard goons with superior heavy weapon options and a 5+ save, you would have toughness 4 orks with bs 2, a save every basic weapon in the game negates, and an extra attack in close combat-which wouldnt help against tyranid monstrous creatures with toughness 7, wraithlords, dreadnaughts, terminators, and any vehicle in the game you would auto fail to harm.  They would be so limited it would be pointless to field them at all, kind of like how 3rd ed slugga boys were the clear choice every time.

I don't think you could get more negative.  Now I really want to see this book.

What are you on about? Orks with sluggas and choppas can get klaws.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 4:32 PM
After reading the Ork Boyz entry again I'm quite sure the Nob cannot get a power klaw if the unit is equipped with shootas. This is probably intentional too since that way shootas won't be a no-brainer for both footslogging AND mounted Ork units.

Doesn't matter what way you look at the rule. The entire mob either has sluggas and choppas, or shootas, and the Nob can only swap a choppa with a power klaw.

Do I agree with it? No. Will I enforce it? No.

I don't usually try to enforce slowed rules but when you think of the consequences of applying the said rule they aren't so bad. All it means is that close combat units take sluggas and choppas like always before and then get klaws, and shoota boys focus on shooting.

Most interesting, the plot thickens.

Dakka is notorious for tagging members with low post counts with a "this guy doesnt know crap" sticker.

Sometimes it takes Yak, Therion, or Mauleed, to chime in to enforce a point, it good to see that someone with some weight on this forum see's my point.  I wonder how many "followers" on this forum will change their tune now.  (probably not many now that I've mentioned it)

 Part of me totally agrees that shoota mobs should concentrate on shooting only...hence, no powerklaw.  The other part is sad at the prospect.  The whole issue is definatly a big deal and needs to be addressed for sure before people start going out and modeling 180 shoota boys led by Nobs with power klaws.  If this interpretation is correct, I may stick with slugga/choppa boys only.

Have you actually looked at the boyz entry on the PDF Yak?  It may change your mind.  What with the wording and all.

Therion, why can't I swap my Choppa for Power Klaw first, then swap the remaining Sluggas and Choppas for Shootas? There is no order of upgrading sequence.

As Yak said, imagine in a class some students have pens and pencils. The instructions say the whole class may swap their pens for pencils. As a result, pencil holders do nothing, and pen holders swap.

Posted By Zoned on 10/31/2007 5:23 PM
Therion, why can't I swap my Choppa for Power Klaw first, then swap the remaining Sluggas and Choppas for Shootas? There is no order of upgrading sequence.

As Yak said, imagine in a class some students have pens and pencils. The instructions say the whole class may swap their pens for pencils. As a result, pencil holders do nothing, and pen holders swap.

I remember having a similiar discussion a long time ago about order of upgrades - I initially thought order didn't matter but eventually decided that the options are meant to be done in order. e.g rough riders can't get squads with plasma and hunting lances as they have to choose hunting lances first, or ig hqs that give everyone bar 1 plasma then make a heavy weapon.

Not really thought much about it since then as in it isn't usually an issue anyway. But I think the shootas are PKless. I don't see an issue with it either, so you can't deal with T8+. Not exactly game breaking, neither can my more expensive gaunts.

The fact is that one of the setups will be extinct. If you can equip the mob with shootas and still get a klaw, you can start glueing rokkit packs to your Sluggaboyz.

Well this reminds me of the same logic that lead to some people believing that CSM who buy the icon of Tzeentch gain a 4+ invulnerable save. You read into a rule, apply it backwards and create the result you wanted. Deadshane already answered your question and I agreed with him. In your case the entire mob may not replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas for free since the entire mob does not have sluggas and choppas. When the mob can only do something as an entity called 'the entire mob' they also fail together, meaning that if one of them can't replace his weapon none of them will. Simple, really, but whatever keeps you warm at night.

As I pointed out earlier, a discerpency shows up when you look at what happens to the nob's slugga. By a strict, almost tortured reading, this is the flow:
1) upgrade boy to nob
2) Swap nob's choppa for claw
3) Swap entire mob's choppa/slugga for shoota....
4) Nob does not have a choppa and slugga, therefore does not swap.

Here's the question: does the upgrade process fail because the entire mob did not swap?

The reading a lot of us is making is that, since the "entire mob may replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas." is that the Nob, as he does not have a slugga and choppa, does not participate.

Here's another alternative: the reading is simply that any and all sluggas and/or choppas must be swapped for sluggas. Read it like this: the entire mob may replace their choppas and their sluggas with a shoota. Meaning, any model with either or both gets a shoota, so the nob ends up with a Claw and a shoota. Not a horrible compromise, IMO.

to reuse the classroom analogy, let's say students are all issued pencils and notebooks. One swapped his pencil for a crayon. If the teacher said, everybody pass up your pencils and notebooks, you're all getting laptops, the student would keep his crayon, but had to give up his notebook for a laptop.

There's no "order" of buying things. If you pay the extra points, you get the klaw. If you don't, you get a shoota. It's that simple.

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 2:12 PM
Except it's not the same. For BPs, the rules are pretty clear: no model that carries a rapid fire weapon my fire and then assault. It's dumb, but the RAW is clear that it can't be done.

Here, the rules aren't clear. You can upgrade a nob, give him a claw, and then replace slugga/choppas with shootas. What is interesting is what happens to the Nobs slugga: does it swap to a shoota, leaving the claw? Does he keep the slugga because you may only swap a "slugga and choppa" for a shoota?

Finally, even the languages "the entire mob may replace their..." is a little ambigous. Does it mean "you may have every model replace" or does it mean "any model in the mob may replace"?

I never understood the whole oil/water situation with shootas and sluggas in the first place. Trukk boys in the old dex could take both freely, and that option seems to have disappeared, unless the horrendously vague language really does mean you can mix and match. Personally, I think it'd be really sweet to have ~10 slugga boys at the front with another 10 shoota boys pouring fire behind them.

This repply does not contribute to the discussion per se, but I have to point out the flawed rules lawyering here.

SOME people will argue that a model who is carrying a slung bolter but fires his bolt pistol can not assault, because the rule states that a model carrying a rapid fire weapon can not assault, unless they choose not to shoot that is.

Well, the next paragraph states that models carrying a pistol weapon can fire them and assault.

See?  One says no, the next one contradicts it.

You carry a rapid fire weapon, you can't shoot and assault.

You also carry a pistol, you can fire the pistol and still assault.

This is why rules lawyers need to be put on a bus with real lawyers and sent into outerspace.


As for this ork situation, a nob is an upgrade, and upgrades are all the same, unless it is stated they are not.  You upgrade the mob to carry shootas, the mob is also upgraded, he loses his choppa, so he loses his ability to get a claw. 

Pretty straight forward to me.

Well lets all take the wording literally for the whole game then.  Lets see, you can only score glancing hits on skimmers.  So that means If I hit, its a glancing hit, no need to roll for penetration.  Every hit is a glance! So even IG with there lazguns can down falcons.  Sweet take that smeldar.  You can only score glancing hits on skimmers that move over 6 inches.  Man my games are going to be so much easier against eldar/tau now. 

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/31/2007 5:34 PM
There's no "order" of buying things. If you pay the extra points, you get the klaw. If you don't, you get a shoota. It's that simple.

Why wouldn't you follow the upgrade rules for a unit in order. Rules are generally read in order.

What does everyone think about a pair of warp-heads leading the army? You have above a 50% a chance to Waagh each turn in addition to the army waagh...Killing power would be with the PK nobs...

Throw in some Kans and you have a Tyranidic Ork list

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 5:46 PM
Well lets all take the wording literally for the whole game then.  Lets see, you can only score glancing hits on skimmers.  So that means If I hit, its a glancing hit, no need to roll for penetration.  Every hit is a glance! So even IG with there lazguns can down falcons.  Sweet take that smeldar.  You can only score glancing hits on skimmers that move over 6 inches.  Man my games are going to be so much easier against eldar/tau now. 

Exactly.  This type of nonsense is what ruined 40K in the first place.

Obviously, if armed wit ha BP and a bolter, the marine can shoot the damn BP and assault.

Rules lawyers just like to squeez as mush as they can out of the rules.


On topic:

The most important rule I am seeing that is gone, is the mob up rule.

ouch.

Posted By Slave on 10/31/2007 5:37 PM

See?  One says no, the next one contradicts it.

You carry a rapid fire weapon, you can't shoot and assault.

You also carry a pistol, you can fire the pistol and still assault.

This is why rules lawyers need to be put on a bus with real lawyers and sent into outerspace.


As for this ork situation, a nob is an upgrade, and upgrades are all the same, unless it is stated they are not.  You upgrade the mob to carry shootas, the mob is also upgraded, he loses his choppa, so he loses his ability to get a claw. 

Pretty straight forward to me

They do no contradict.

A speed limit sign says you can drive 50mph, but a stop sign says you must stop.  Do they contradict, or do you apply the negation first?

It's the same thing.  One rule says that pistols may shoot and assault.  Another says models with rapid fire weapons cannot assault if they shoot.  If a model with a pistol and a rapid fire weapon shoots, it cannot assault.  There are many reasons a model with a pistol might not be able to shoot and then assault (the unit is too far away, casualties make it too far away, the model doesn't roll high enough on it's difficult terrain, it fails a "The horror" check, etc.  Shoot at a model 11" with an infantry model with a pistol, and then tell your opponent you can assault because the rules let you.  You can't do it.

Is this rule unfair, unintend, and seldom enforced: yes, yes, and god I hope so.  But it's times like this that lawyers (both real and gaming) actually come in handy.  There is right and there is wrong.

The Ork situation is hairier and uglier, but I think you're putting rules into the text that aren't there. 

 

 

Posted By Slave on 10/31/2007 5:58 PM

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 5:46 PM
Well lets all take the wording literally for the whole game then.  Lets see, you can only score glancing hits on skimmers.  So that means If I hit, its a glancing hit, no need to roll for penetration.  Every hit is a glance! So even IG with there lazguns can down falcons.  Sweet take that smeldar.  You can only score glancing hits on skimmers that move over 6 inches.  Man my games are going to be so much easier against eldar/tau now. 

Exactly.  This type of nonsense is what ruined 40K in the first place.

Obviously, if armed wit ha BP and a bolter, the marine can shoot the damn BP and assault.

Rules lawyers just like to squeez as mush as they can out of the rules.


On topic:

The most important rule I am seeing that is gone, is the mob up rule.

ouch.

Look, I don't think you'll find too many people that'll actually prevent you from taking your BP shots and then assaulting, but calling people names isn't the answer to your anger.

You can't break tight rules, and loopholes only exist until official rulings are released.  Don't be mad because somebody with an eye for detail and a deep understanding of the rules pointed out that the designers either made a mistake, or intentionally made a unit less good than you would like.  Be mad at the designers, not for making a mistake, but for refusing to answer a simple bloody question.

I'm (really, really reluctantly) going to have to weigh in with the "shootas can't have a Power Claw Nob" brigade.
Which is very disappointing. I was looking forward to some actual versitility from my troop choices for a change.
Here's hoping this one gets FAQ'd. If not, I'll be running Sluggas.
If that was what the designer intended, I'm a bit dissapointed. Ah well.

The more I read it myself, the more I'm starting to think they meant to restrict PKs to slugga mobs as well. The language is very amibiguous, and I still think under RAW it'd be hard to deny a player from it. What's making this difficult is that if the weapons of a mob are different, and the nob can take different equiptment, why not simply have two entries, like before?

Previous codex entries, like Rough Riders, are amazingly clear about who can take what. Here's my main problem with the idea that intent was to not allow PKs: it's not made clear, and I think most players would assume that the Nob's weapon choices would stay the same regardless of mob choices.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/31/2007 4:21 AM

The great thing about Shootas vs. Sluggas is that Shootas are now 18" S4 AP6 Assault 2. They don't need to be in CC to start doing Decent damage to enemy units, and pose a pretty potent shooting threat, especially combined with Rokkits.

wow, that's pretty awesome about the shootas.  if i actually work on the army i have in my head i'll be going with shootas

that is what strikes me as odd about that entry. If you look at every entry in the book it goes down a list of what you can and can't have. I haven't found anything ambiguous yet, in fact everything seems to very explicit. If it allows for various entries it does. The nob is ambiguous. If you trade in choppas, you can't have one to upgrade to a pk. And even if you upgrade before, do you lose the stubba? It really only seems (imo) to make sense if you apply stuff in the order you read the list. A lot of other entries seem to follow that pattern. There are things later in the options that are nullified by taking things early in the option. It's not a fact, and it isn't defined in any way in the book, but it is truly the only way it makes sense in that entry. I know all of us are coming into this with the predisposed notion that they should and or could have it before, but blindly reading the list as is, that is the only way it truly makes sense. An interesting conundrum as far as taking a proper stance on it. This is what FAQs are made for, clearing up ambiguities. Intent could be taken either way. RAW only makes sense if you upgrade a nob before taking the PK, otherwise you can't. The only reasons why I would even see them writing rules that way would be:
A. They screwed up and it is ambiguous.
B. They meant that shoota mob nobs wouldn't have nasty CC weapons.

In both aspects I could see a studio intent. No PK in a shoota mob would make you choose between shoota and cc. Do we think they are that devious to do that? They might have just let one slip. Was this just one of the normal slip ups? How can they really limit CC weapons off of a nob?Doesn't make much sense to let you upgrade to a nob and not get any more powerful CC options as he isn't any better at shooting.

Posted By Toreador on 10/31/2007 7:37 PM


In both aspects I could see a studio intent. No PK in a shoota mob would make you choose between shoota and cc. Do we think they are that devious to do that? They might have just let one slip. Was this just one of the normal slip ups? How can they really limit CC weapons off of a nob?Doesn't make much sense to let you upgrade to a nob and not get any more powerful CC options as he isn't any better at shooting.

First, there is no other entry in the book where a character is an upgrade of the unit and the entire unit has the option to replace its basic weaponry with another option. I don't think you can look at the other entries in the book and then draw any sort of real conclusions about the Boyz mob situation.

It is also important to note that there are at least several major typos found in this PDF and some downright bizarre inclusions (like giving Grot slavers 'Waaagh!' when Grot mob units can't utilize the 'Waaagh!').

Hopefully many of these typos or uncertainties will be ironed out before the final book is released. This PDF is dated in September, so it seems like a distinct possibility that final editing may still have yet to be completed.

 

 

Lets break down the wording even more for the complete rules lawyering.

The entire mob MAY replace there sluggas and choppas with shootas for free.

MAY is capatalized because its the key word in this sentence.  My take on this meaning is you MAY choose to replace it, or not.  That can mean boy one may replace it, but chooses not to, however boy 2 would like to replace it, so he does.  So if we really really want to get down to the letter of the law, every boy in the mob may choose to or not individually.  So now we can have 5 slugga boyz and 5 shoota boyz all in the same mob.  If the nob upgrades to the power klaw he no longer has the same option, as he has no choppa to trade in.  It does not say if one boy trades it in then they all must.  So following these options strictly everyone can have what they want!  I would like to see the anti shoota mob klaw naysayers backpedal on there words now.

Actually I wouldnt, having a squad of 30 orks with 15 with shootas to remove as casualties leaving the 3 base attack slugga boyz to get into hth WITH the power klaw armed nob sounds grossly overpowered.  I think I will choose to interpret the writing this way.

Posted By Slave on 10/31/2007 5:58 PM

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 5:46 PM
Well lets all take the wording literally for the whole game then.  Lets see, you can only score glancing hits on skimmers.  So that means If I hit, its a glancing hit, no need to roll for penetration.  Every hit is a glance! So even IG with there lazguns can down falcons.  Sweet take that smeldar.  You can only score glancing hits on skimmers that move over 6 inches.  Man my games are going to be so much easier against eldar/tau now. 

Exactly.  This type of nonsense is what ruined 40K in the first place.

Obviously, if armed wit ha BP and a bolter, the marine can shoot the damn BP and assault.

Rules lawyers just like to squeez as mush as they can out of the rules.


On topic:

The most important rule I am seeing that is gone, is the mob up rule.

ouch.

Take the rule literally if you are going to, but when you do it, dont misquote the rule.

The example for skimmers above is hardly an accurate quote of the rules for damaging them. 

Learn to debate.

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 5:58 PM

A speed limit sign says you can drive 50mph, but a stop sign says you must stop.  Do they contradict, or do you apply the negation first?

What do the laws of the road have to do with 40k?  I could be wrong, but I dont think GW came out with the current edition of "Driving"....we would have many more accidents.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/31/2007 8:03 PM

Posted By Slave on 10/31/2007 5:58 PM

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 5:46 PM
Well lets all take the wording literally for the whole game then.  Lets see, you can only score glancing hits on skimmers.  So that means If I hit, its a glancing hit, no need to roll for penetration.  Every hit is a glance! So even IG with there lazguns can down falcons.  Sweet take that smeldar.  You can only score glancing hits on skimmers that move over 6 inches.  Man my games are going to be so much easier against eldar/tau now. 

Exactly.  This type of nonsense is what ruined 40K in the first place.

Obviously, if armed wit ha BP and a bolter, the marine can shoot the damn BP and assault.

Rules lawyers just like to squeez as mush as they can out of the rules.


On topic:

The most important rule I am seeing that is gone, is the mob up rule.

ouch.

Take the rule literally if you are going to, but when you do it, dont misquote the rule.

The example for skimmers above is hardly an accurate quote of the rules for damaging them. 

Learn to debate.

That was just rambling.  My take on may take shootas above your post however is debate.

You can't draw any sort of conclusion from it, but it can set a precedence on how things are laid out in the army list entries. Like I have said above, there is no real absolute here.

I agree Yak, that there are a lot of little issues in the book that I hope were also caught. A precedence has been set in the past about this type of thing were some other pdfs were out, and little changed for the final product. I hope they catch a bit more of this. It does look a lot tighter than a lot of codexes in the past. That is part of my issue with it. On something that seems so strongly worded in other parts of the codex, it seems odd that something that ambiguous is there. It really stands out, and thus seems to be one of two options.

I am curious though, mine is actually dated for July. Is there another September copy floating about?

I don't think there's much in the wording of the rule to be "quite sure" about. It's not that your interpretation is wrong, it's just that it's not unequivocally right.

There's nothing that says, directly, that the Orks must all make the replacement if any do. It could be viewed, as some people are, that this rule simply replaces all sluggas and choppas in the mob with shootas.

It's also worth noting that as long as you're being extremely RAW about it, the rules don't specify an exchange rate for sluggas and choppas when replaced with shootas. Is it 1 for 1? Does each Ork end up with 2 Shootas, getting one for his slugga and one for his choppa?

Since many people think that the right way to approach things is by the RAW and in the fashion that gives the least advantage, then it'd seem that any number of sluggas and choppas would always be exchanged for just two shootas. After all, 2 shootas would be the least advantageous way to interpret "shootas."

Some folks have hinted at it, but I think it's worth saying: The problem isn't clear, unambiguous rules (obviously). Even if they don't match the fluff or "make sense," if they're clear and unambiguous you can at least play by them. The problem is ambiguous rules, and the slugga/shoota rule clearly is, regardless of the surety of certain non-native English speakers.



Yes, but the rules of physics state that you can't drive a bus into outer space, so you're cheating, and I'm quite sure of that.



In theory, couldn't the mob be killed down to the Slaver, then, on his own, he might be called upon to Waagh?



Mine says August 2nd. Strange.

In my head, what I'm going to pretend is that GW decided to get clever, figure out who is leaking, and use the date stamp on the file to ID the copies they give to various people. And then it turns out that all the dates show up, cause EVERYONE is leaking.

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 6:02 PM

Posted By Slave on 10/31/2007 5:58 PM

Posted By Orock on 10/31/2007 5:46 PM
Well lets all take the wording literally for the whole game then.  Lets see, you can only score glancing hits on skimmers.  So that means If I hit, its a glancing hit, no need to roll for penetration.  Every hit is a glance! So even IG with there lazguns can down falcons.  Sweet take that smeldar.  You can only score glancing hits on skimmers that move over 6 inches.  Man my games are going to be so much easier against eldar/tau now. 

Exactly.  This type of nonsense is what ruined 40K in the first place.

Obviously, if armed wit ha BP and a bolter, the marine can shoot the damn BP and assault.

Rules lawyers just like to squeez as mush as they can out of the rules.


On topic:

The most important rule I am seeing that is gone, is the mob up rule.

ouch.

Look, I don't think you'll find too many people that'll actually prevent you from taking your BP shots and then assaulting, but calling people names isn't the answer to your anger.

You can't break tight rules, and loopholes only exist until official rulings are released.  Don't be mad because somebody with an eye for detail and a deep understanding of the rules pointed out that the designers either made a mistake, or intentionally made a unit less good than you would like.  Be mad at the designers, not for making a mistake, but for refusing to answer a simple bloody question.

Uh, who is angry, and who called anybody a name?

Posted By Slave on 10/31/2007 9:56 PM

Uh, who is angry, and who called anybody a name?

My apologies.  what I should have said is that while you may find the actions of rules lawyers distasteful, it's not their fault if the rules are, as this case is, truly ambigous.

Posted By yakface on 10/31/2007 7:49 PM

It is also important to note that there are at least several major typos found in this PDF

Well that's for sure!  For instance, it's spelled T-E-E-T-H, not T-E-E-F.  And there are even more typos like this throughout the book!  Jeez, learn how to use spellcheck, ya knuckleheads!

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/01/2007 12:50 AM

Posted By yakface on 10/31/2007 7:49 PM

It is also important to note that there are at least several major typos found in this PDF

Well that's for sure!  For instance, it's spelled T-E-E-T-H, not T-E-E-F.  And there are even more typos like this throughout the book!  Jeez, learn how to use spellcheck, ya knuckleheads!

oh boy...

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 5:28 PM

...then you need to look closer.  When they say THE ENTIRE MOB does that not include the Nob?  He IS part of the Mob after all, it doenst specify boyz, it just says the entire mob.  Therin lies the problem.  The nob doesnt have a choppa anymore, therefore the ENTIRE MOB cant trade in their sluggaz and CHOPPAS for shootas.

For your interpretation to be true, wouldn't there have to be some sort of exclusionary language?  Something along the lines of, "This can only be done if every model can do so,"  or "The entire mob must trade their choppas for shootas."

You seem to be operating under the assumption that if every model in the mob does not have a choppa to trade, none can, and I don't understand where you are getting that from.

Are you sure this is not just wishful thinking on your part?  Because, at the moment, it sure looks like wishful thinking to me.

New question. Is there a statement anywhere that sets what the maximum Ld value can be?

Weirdboy gets mob rules, and when put with a unit of boyz 11 or over his ld for all psychic tests becomes what? 10? Higher?

It states that they are fearless when over that size.

Fearless is irrelevant for the question Toreador asked. Fearless doesn't automatically mean you pass psychic tests.

You're right Toreador. It was an oversight. I assume leadership is capped at ten like all other stats, but they forgot to say so in the Mob Rule section.

My reading is that once they reach Ld 10 it stops, above that is Fearless but it doesn't keep adding to their Leadership. It's definitely not explicit though.

Yep, Fearless has no bearing. Until I reread the rule I didn't even catch the part about substituting mob size for leadership value. I don't have my rulebook here, but I remember in one of the older editions they had a cap or max on certain attributes. Nothing in the codex sets down a limit, and if there is none, they could never lose a test such as mind war when in a mob of 15 boyz...or ever be blocked by a psychic hood!

The entire mob MAY exchange there sluggas and choppas for shootas for free.

MAY as in do not have to. There is no sentence that says if one model in the mob does then the rest all have to as well, if we want to take this literally this means in a mob of 10 4 may trade in for shootas, but the other 6 dont feel like it. If we take it the way the rules lawyers keep trying to push on everyone, than this means you can have any split of weaponry in the mob you like. If it were worded "If one model takes a shoota in trade for his slugga/choppa, then the whole mob must do so" then these arguements would be valid.

As it is written though, not only is there a stronger arguement FOR the nob to be able to get a powerklaw in a sea of shoota boyz, but you could have ANY mix of shootas and sluggas/choppas that you desired.

Posted By skyth on 10/31/2007 5:55 PM

What does everyone think about a pair of warp-heads leading the army? You have above a 50% a chance to Waagh each turn in addition to the army waagh...Killing power would be with the PK nobs...

Throw in some Kans and you have a Tyranidic Ork list

Yeah, I was thinking about something like that, tho I was thinking Lootas, Warpeads and Slugga boyz. You'll need to pull the Psykers out of the mobs after the first few turns tho to avoid an accidental Deep Strike. Zogwart is rather intriguing. It says he can turn any Independent Character into a Squig. I assume that a Monstrous Creature that is also an IC would be vulnerable, tho I foresee much nashing of teeth when someone has it happen to them for the first time.

You skip entirely skip over the word ENTIRE in that argument.

ENTIRE mob MAY exchange...

It's like with Nobz. The entire mob may be upgraded to Nob Bikers. This means all of them are, or aren't.

the hardest part will be trying to protect that squig i would imagine... otherwise they are giving up pts. thats just plain mean.

Lets hope it's an oversight. I'm going to run sluggas in my test lists. It's a slight drop in power and versitility but it's not too bad. it's a shame though because I liked the idea of the shoota armed orks being in the majority, it made more sense.
Without a powerclaw a mob is just too vunerable to big nasties and armoured troops to make it viable.

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 9:48 AM
You skip entirely skip over the word ENTIRE in that argument.

ENTIRE mob MAY exchange...

It's like with Nobz. The entire mob may be upgraded to Nob Bikers. This means all of them are, or aren't.

It does not say if one does that all have to.  It can just as easily be argued that may is the only key word.  The entire mob has the CHOICE yes, but some MAY choose not to.  Since this arguement is a wash, and neither side would win in a debate that would go on forever, I would suggest letting the nob in the shoota boy mob have his claw, as the points cost is broken down for him to take it in the same sqaud. 

 

It does not say the entire mob MUST.  MAY and MUST are two very different words. 

Let me ask you something since you seem to feel so strongly about it.  If you were in a GT, and were playing an ork player and the winner of the match went on to the final table but because of a small error a shoota boy squad moves up and wipes out your chances of winning because of the klaw (say a tank on one of your 2 table quarters controlled vs his 2 and the shootas were at less than half str, but blows up the tank) would you then argue with a judge to have his list thrown out for an illegal build?

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 9:48 AM
You skip entirely skip over the word ENTIRE in that argument.

ENTIRE mob MAY exchange...

It's like with Nobz. The entire mob may be upgraded to Nob Bikers. This means all of them are, or aren't.

See, the way I read it, it means that you switch out all the choppas in the unit.  If the Nob no longer has a choppa, then it doesn't switch.

I see no reason to interpret it to mean all of them are, or none of them can.

Your argument seems to hinge on words that are not present, like "only if."

Posted By Orock on 11/01/2007 10:02 AM

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 9:48 AM
You skip entirely skip over the word ENTIRE in that argument.

ENTIRE mob MAY exchange...

It's like with Nobz. The entire mob may be upgraded to Nob Bikers. This means all of them are, or aren't.

It does not say if one does that all have to.  It can just as easily be argued that may is the only key word.  The entire mob has the CHOICE yes, but some MAY choose not to.  Since this arguement is a wash, and neither side would win in a debate that would go on forever, I would suggest letting the nob in the shoota boy mob have his claw, as the points cost is broken down for him to take it in the same sqaud. 

 

It does not say the entire mob MUST.  MAY and MUST are two very different words.

It says the 'entire mob may'. The entire mob is the subject of the may.

Wherever an option is for any 'models' then other codices are always quite explicit about that, using wording that makes it clear that 'any number of models may' (rough riders) or 'any number of firewarriors may' (firwarriors) take the upgrade. Where an upgrade applies to a whole unit you see wording like this ork mob.

Don't lump me in with feeling strongly about it. I don't mind either way, I am just staying there is proof either way. One thing I am not saying is that if a shoota nob takes a PK the mob can't take shootas. What I do say is that the wording is ambiguous. There would be no reason for it to be worded that way unless they either made a mistake, or the meant that a mob upgrades to shootas before a nob can upgrade to a PK, thus making it an invalid option for him. They are very explicit throughout the book in wording, and that is what makes me wonder. If I faced an army either way I wouldn't care. I might joke about it, but that is as far as it would go.

And if you start using may that way, then only a few boyz need take stikkbomz to give the mob the effect, or you could have nobz on and off of bikes in the same unit.

I did find the passage in the book referencing maxes. The scale is from 0 - 10, which would I think limit the Ld to 10 for all tests that orks would have to make.

it's on page 12.

The "Official" codex is still 2 months away and there is already rule-dissection going on.

Ahhhh.... Dakka

-Jmz

Yep, but primarily because I am playing Apoc this weekend with the new Ork list

I have to work the bugs out before we even get there.

I've gotta say, after looking over this Codex some, I think some extremely powerful builds can be put together.

Stormboyz strike me as being so nasty as to border on broken.

Boyz in Trukks are solid, extremely cheap, and a Troops choice.

With these guys as your core, whatever you put around them in support is going to start off on the right foot.

Time will tell as the metagame evolves, but I won't be surprised if Orks start winning a lot of tournaments.

So how does the codex look if you wanted to, say, make a Goff list with boyz and nobz?

Posted By malfred on 11/01/2007 6:46 PM
So how does the codex look if you wanted to, say, make a Goff list with boyz and nobz?

It looks much better than it used to, that's for sure.

You can buy so many more boys then you used to (more ablative wounds for the PK Nobs) and now that you can 'Waaagh' (fleet one turn) you actually have a chance of getting your boyz into combat.

 

One big disappointment with this Codex is the Boss. Still no way to build a truly tuff Boss. Most of the HQ choices are more points liability than value add.

It doesn't seem like it, but can anyone comment on whether or not the "add on" guys like Badrukk, Snikrot and Zagstruk count as HQ choices?

They don't take up a HQ choice.

The Boss on Bike was never going to be the same kind of monster a DP or Tyrant Was. He never had the initiative to do it.

Wow, the codex isn't even out yet and the munchkins are already trying to break it. How about that?

*looks over the thread*

Munchkins? Where?

We're not trying to break it. We are breaking it.

Just imagine, Ork armies that need absolutely Zero mobs of Ork Boyz

I think I'll take a Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun and stick him in cover behind some Lootas.

He seems awfully unreliable (even suicidal), unlike let's say MORE Lootas. 45 of them should provide you with all the dakka you need. Shouldn't you rather equip your Mek with a KFF just in case you need to deploy your Lootahorde in the open?

i like the codex since it is the rock to mech eldars paper.

Posted By skkipper on 11/01/2007 9:43 PM
i like the codex since it is the rock to mech eldars paper.

  Um, you do know that paper beats rock, right? 

If you look at most of the other recent HQ choices from other books, the Ork boss IS ded ard.

Stormboyz drop in points and get fleet, suddenly they are the new broken.
Boyz drop in points, and get a much better ride.. they aren't even worth taking.
Lootsas went from initial impressions of "I would never take" to, "40 of them is so broken"!!

I love pre-codex release discussion.....

Does anyone else think they have f*ed up the wargear reference system?. Half the wargear is detailed in the wargear section and the other half (gear for individual units) is in the specific unit description. They have done this in the last few codeci. It makes it very annoying to find the details of a particular piece of wargear when in the middle of a game. Why make things hard like that (constantly flipping pages)? I liked the old codex format where ALL the wargear was in one section and the individual unit entries listed the wargear. You only had two places to look (unit entry and wargear section). Now you have three places to look (unit entry, unit description and wargear section). Change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing...

Toreador:

Are you imagining things? They went from "the sexx" (when it was known that they carry D3 shot autocannons) to "meh" (when their points costs became known) to "will need them anyway" (current state). I don't recall anyone ever claiming that they were bad.



Don't think many people said that, either. The idea is that foot mobz are better, not that trukk mobz suck.

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 11:02 PM

Stormboyz drop in points and get fleet, suddenly they are the new broken.

Stormboyz don't get the fleet thing.

Um, they get better than Fleet. They get the additional movement in their movement phase, leaving them free to shoot (for what it's worth).

Actually they may get the fleet move during the Waagh turn and they always get the extra dice movement that they have to roll whenever they move using their rokkitpacks... So that could be: 12" movement + D6 (for using rokkitpacks) + D6 Waagh (when it is declared) and then 6" charge.  (edit: That would be a potential of up to 30" assault range in one turn.... a bit OTT IMHO)

Interestingly the Unit description (p 47) lists them as having the Waaagh special rule, but the Army list entry (p 101) does not.  Which is correct? Yea GW rules writers!!!  The codex isn't even officially released yet and already there are issues for an FAQ.

The Waaagh rule says infantry units get the fleet benefit.  Stormboyz are jump infantry.  Different thing altogether I know.  But which is the error?  Unit description or armylist entry?  Was it intentional for them to list Waaagh in the unit description as an exception to the "norm"?  Grrr...

Additionally, Boss Zagstruk is also listed as having the Waaagh special rule... 

edit- I see now in the Ork Codex Review thread that most of these points were already mentioned...

Posted By Beast on 11/02/2007 4:55 AM

Actually they may get the fleet move during the Waagh turn and they always get the extra dice movement that they have to roll whenever they move using their rokkitpacks... So that could be: 12" movement + D6 (for using rokkitpacks) + D6 Waagh (when it is declared) and then 6" charge.

Interestingly the Unit description (p 47) lists them as having the Waaagh special rule, but the Army list entry (p 101) does not.  Which is correct? Yea GW rules writers!!!  The codex isn't even officially released yet and already there are issues for an FAQ.

The Waaagh rule says infantry units get the fleet benefit.  Stormboyz are jump infantry.  Different thing altogether I know.  But which is the error?  Unit description or armylist entry?  Was it intentional for them to list Waaagh in the unit description as an exception to the "norm"?  Grrr...

Of course it probably doesn't matter that they were given it or not. If it only affects infantry then all they have is a rule that they cannot actually benefit from.

I'm personally inclined to say they don't get it. But have to wait and see I suppose,

[edit: I note that deffcopters are also listed as having waaagh in their unit description as well, they also clearly aren't infantry and probably aren't expected to have it? They also have the mob rule but with a max unit size of 5 that is another example of having something that they can't actually benefit from}

Yeah.  Deffkoptas do have it listed but warbikes don't...  What about a Nobz unit that takes bikes?  Same for Big mek and Warboss- do they still get it or do they change their type to "biker" if they take that wargear?

Posted By Pariah Press on 11/01/2007 10:22 PM

Posted By skkipper on 11/01/2007 9:43 PM
i like the codex since it is the rock to mech eldars paper.

  Um, you do know that paper beats rock, right? 

yes but it felt so wrong calling mech eldar a rock.

8 battle wagons with death rollers. running over skimmers

now that's fun 

Posted By skkipper on 11/02/2007 3:33 PM

8 battle wagons with death rollers. running over skimmers

now that's fun 

Lol - I'd totally missed that one. can't see to many eldar getting caught by it due to speed issues, but that would be funny.

Da falconcruncher of bork: deffrolla, wreckinball, grabba claw, 4 rokkits, red paint

d6 auto s10 hits, 50% chance s9 hit, 4 rokkits, and if yer still hovrin, 50% chance not moving next turn. all for less than the falcon.

Posted By puree on 11/02/2007 4:36 PM

Posted By skkipper on 11/02/2007 3:33 PM

8 battle wagons with death rollers. running over skimmers

now that's fun 

Lol - I'd totally missed that one. can't see to many eldar getting caught by it due to speed issues, but that would be funny.

That's why you castle your Lootas with your Deffwagons.

Falcons might be a little too fast for the average wagon. Monoliths, on the other hand...

Well, first and foremost, I'm taking him as the least of all evils. I don't like any of the HQ choices at all. I'd skip it entirely if I could.

That said, I think it's more reliable than it appears.

First off, the weapon is roughly S7 and AP2, with the AP being the important part. It's certainly not something you'd be confident shooting at heavier vehicles, but against most any infantry it's a great option.

It does have the wacky side effects. There's a 1 in 6 chance of them occurring, with 2 results being relatively awful, 3 are annoying, and one is downright wonderful. That makes the odds of "something awful happening" in a 6 turn game around 1 in 3. I'll deal with that.

Even if he blows up, the model is less than 100 points, and honestly that's a big reason I took him.



Not really. He's got some pretty good stats, and he's fairly cheap, but he's lacking in all the ways that count for an IC. His saves suck, his I is very borderline, and above all, he lacks a Power Weapon. He's really pretty worthless. In order to survive, an IC needs to wipe out his killzone, or come close, before he gets attacked back. Furious charge helps, but he'll soon get swamped. The big issue is the lack of Power Weapon.



This one is a little bizzare, I don't know why people haven't figured this out yet. They're talking about Shootas, or saying Boyz are weak, or fawning over the Stormboyz... And missing the fact that a Trukkfull of Boyz with a Klaw Nob is now one of the best values in the entire game.



Yeah, that blows quite a bit.



I think that comes as close to emperical falsehood as anything can in the crazy, multi-variable equation that is 40K. Trukks are very cheap, very fast, very easy to leap out of and hit stuff, and it's even kinda fun to be in one when it blows up.

Trukks aren't just fast enough to assure a turn 2 assault, they're fast enough to assure a turn 2 assault and still hide behind cover on the way in. They can go 25" in one round. They can deliver Orks to assault from 21" away.

The foot horde is crap. One Fleet move doesn't change that fact. A few overpriced KFFs doesn't change that.

 

Please don't make requests on Dakka to find the leaked Ork PDF, even if the request is partially in jest.

--yakface

Phryxis:
My intention was not to make the claim, but rather point out what, in fact, people have been saying. And that is that foot mobz are better, not that trukk mobz aren't worth taking (as Toreador said they were).

That's cool, I'm just saying that no matter what the source is, the idea that walking in is better that Trukking in is just silly.

In that resepct, and as much as I am growing to love Phil Kelly, that is an issue with this Codex. There's simply no reason not to take loads of Trukks full of Boyz. The internal balance isn't really there. I'll be running two Stormboy mobs in my list (as it stands now), but mostly that's just because I want to have some diversity. A Trukkful of choppas is just a better value. And considering what an incredible value Stormboyz are, that's saying something.

Posted By Beast on 11/02/2007 1:55 AM
Does anyone else think they have f*ed up the wargear reference system?. Half the wargear is detailed in the wargear section and the other half (gear for individual units) is in the specific unit description. They have done this in the last few codeci. It makes it very annoying to find the details of a particular piece of wargear when in the middle of a game. Why make things hard like that (constantly flipping pages)? I liked the old codex format where ALL the wargear was in one section and the individual unit entries listed the wargear. You only had two places to look (unit entry and wargear section). Now you have three places to look (unit entry, unit description and wargear section). Change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing...

Yeah, they've totally been screwing up the WG section in the last few codexes. I'm actually surprised that they can get approved to publish them the way they are. The entire WG section is just pointers to random pages throughout the book where you can find the actual rules. They could have at least reprinted what is scattered throughout the book here so it was easier to look things up.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/03/2007 11:20 AM

My intention was not not to make the claim, but rather point out what, in fact, people have been saying.

That's cool, I'm just saying that no matter what the source is, the idea that walking in is better that Trukking in is just silly.

In that resepct, and as much as I am growing to love Phil Kelly, that is an issue with this Codex. There's simply no reason not to take loads of Trukks full of Boyz. The internal balance isn't really there. I'll be running two Stormboy mobs in my list (as it stands now), but mostly that's just because I want to have some diversity. A Trukkful of choppas is just a better value. And considering what an incredible value Stormboyz are, that's saying something.

I have to say that you are completely and utterly wrong on this point.

Not that Trukk boyz aren't useful (they are) just that they are more useful than footslogging boys.

What you have failed to calculate in your conclusion is a couple of very important changes to the way Orks behave.


#1 Orks lost their Choppa but also dropped in points. While point-for-point the new slugga boy is superior to the old slugga boy, the problem with Trukk mobs is that you are limited in taking advantage of that point superiority: You can't take more than 12 Orks in a Trukk. So while footslogging boys can take full 30 man mobs to really benefit from the new Ork statline/points cost Trukk boyz cannot. If you come into a game expecting a Trukkload of 12 Boyz to do roughly the same damage that 10 Trukkboyz used to do (if they mangaged to get into combat unmolosted) you are going to be in for a big surprise.

Even if you take all six of your Troops choices as Trukk boyz you're still only dealing with 72 Orks.  A number that could be enough if it weren't for point #2.


#2 Orks are drastically weaker in the morale department. Nobs can't take +1Ld anymore and the new mob rule means that once Orks get under 11 men in the unit, they become really vulnerable to running away. If this happens to be in combat, you are almost certainly going to have your Ork unit rundown with its paltry I2.

And this is why Trukk boyz are ultimately quite balanced in the new codex. With a cap of only 12 Orks, and a base Ld of 7, as soon as the unit takes any casualties (as they may well when their Trukk explodes) they will immediately start to be in that danger zone. And unlike in the old codex where falling back Ork units would mob up, once an Ork unit that is under 50% starts to flee, it is going to keep on running.

Again, this is where Footslogging mobs shine. The ability to take large mobs removes the issue of failing leadership until much later in the game. And to dismiss the impact of the 'Waaagh' is ridiculous. A single D6" move can often be the difference between a turn 3 or 4 charge and ignoring a whole turns worth of close range shooting from the enemy. Also, if players take 1 or 2 Warpheads they may well get a second (or more) 'Waaagh'.


Also, the new KFF rules are ridiculously good for the points. The only requirement now is that the unit must be within 6" of the mek which means you only have to keep a single model in range from each unit and it will be protected.

A gigantic mob of cheap Orks protected by a KFF marching forward across the battlefield with one (or more) Waaaghs to help propel them should do just fine indeed.

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

WHo needs to kill the monolith when you can phase them.

Posted By Darkness on 11/03/2007 6:16 PM
WHo needs to kill the monolith when you can phase them.

And the question of whether or not you can phase them out raises a new question:

Can you successfully play Keep Away from 120-180 Orks?

You kill the Monolith with the Warboss on Bike with a S10 Power Klaw and 7 Attacks on the charge. That's the main reason I don't want to do dual KFF Meks (now that KFF's magically expand to entire mobs).

Considering we now have some tasty 36 and 48" range firepower, I think it'll be hard for them to stay away.

And we have a bunch of nice antitank options.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/03/2007 7:17 PM
You kill the Monolith with the Warboss on Bike with a S10 Power Klaw and 7 Attacks on the charge. That's the main reason I don't want to do dual KFF Meks (now that KFF's magically expand to entire mobs).

Its a skimmer

A warboss gives you what?  One chance to kill it before dying? (and running the numbers, I believe you have something in the range of a 1.3% chance of killing one with the Warboss)

And this plan immediately backfires if they have multiples. 

and who would believe that a ship capable of obliterating a planet could be destroyed by a lucky shot.

I was also quite confused about the Warboss killing the Monolith. There's simply no way it's going to happen with 6 or 7 attacks that hit on 6's.

He's got 7 attacks, meaning you should get at least 1 hit. Charge him in with a unit of storm boyz or anything close with a hidden PK (which is S9 on the charge), and you will get the result you need.

The problem is destroying it at range when they don't use it to get close and flux everything.

I've played KoS for a while (and Necrons) and my Warboss has an impressive number of 'liths under his belt, and that's when he only had 6 attacks on the charge.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/04/2007 3:29 AM
He's got 7 attacks, meaning you should get at least 1 hit. Charge him in with a unit of storm boyz or anything close with a hidden PK (which is S9 on the charge), and you will get the result you need.

The problem is destroying it at range when they don't use it to get close and flux everything.

I've played KoS for a while (and Necrons) and my Warboss has an impressive number of 'liths under his belt, and that's when he only had 6 attacks on the charge.

Thats awefully optimistic Voodoo.  You'll be crying when you roll snake-eyes for damage.

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

Posted By Therion on 11/03/2007 11:33 PM

A warboss gives you what?  One chance to kill it before dying? (and running the numbers, I believe you have something in the range of a 1.3% chance of killing one with the Warboss)

I was also quite confused about the Warboss killing the Monolith. There's simply no way it's going to happen with 6 or 7 attacks that hit on 6's.

As I remember the 'lith can't 'move fast' so you can penetrate it with S10 attacks (barring living metal arguments). So 7 S10 attacks even with 6's to hit has a 21% chance to kill it outright. Not awesome, but a lot better than a 1.3% chance, and way better than 'no way'.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 4:20 AM

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

There is just as many good arguements for being able to take them as against.  You could argue it till the cows came home and its something no good ork player would let slide until an official faq is released.

so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Hope there is a faq one way or the other on it.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Hope there is a faq one way or the other on it.

Ha!

Your hoping for a FAQ on a yet to be released codex you all stole off the internet.

But seriously, GW is really good about getting out timely FAQ's for their released Codices, so should be any time right?

Thanks for the giggle!

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Care to back that up?  I play IG and there are no options that indicate they have to be taken in any kind of order.  Please don't make up imaginary criteria like that and present them as fact.

that doesn't make sense, thats like saying you MUST pick an HQ character and all his gear before you even make an army list.... Or since you have to place heavy support first in most scenarios that you must pick all gear for your heavy support before all others... Do you understand the nonsense that you just thought of as an example?

Posted By Darkness on 11/03/2007 6:16 PM
WHo needs to kill the monolith when you can phase them.

  So spoke the Necron opponents at the 'Ardboyz tournament!

"Your hoping for a FAQ on a yet to be released codex you all stole off the internet.
But seriously, GW is really good about getting out timely FAQ's for their released Codices, so should be any time right?"

I think this is GW's revenge. They knew the codex would get leaked, so they intentionally left this horribly ambiguous rule in. Now every Ork player is sitting there in existential angst trying to decide if they should build and paint 60-120 shoota boyz or not. EVIL GENIUS!

Actually, I wish this was the case because then I could be reasonably sure it would get answered soon after the codex is actually released.

@ Dead Shanes comment. He seems to be right. You must replace both your SLUGGA and CHOPPA for a shoota. If the Nob doesnt have a choppa then he cant swap out, which means the unit cant as every member cant.

Posted By Orock on 11/04/2007 6:49 AM

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 4:20 AM

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

There is just as many good arguements for being able to take them as against.  You could argue it till the cows came home and its something no good ork player would let slide until an official faq is released.

Problem is making your list with PK nobs in Shoota units, then showing up at an RTT that you drove 45 min to an hour to get to and not being able to play your list because they consider it illegal....which could easily happen.  All they have to do is interpret the rules in the way I pointed out.

"Shoota boyz cannot get powerklaws"-always good to insert into a thread so that it becomes another page or two long.

if we are reading into words, i would argue it says MAY. Like saying they ALL have the option but the nob MAY not take the option. Using that kind of "nit pick" logic would mean that the Nob may carry the units "special weapon" because it says 1 in 10 orks, well the nob is just that ork.

while we are at it, a boy with a special weapon cannot change his weapon for a shoota. unless you are arguing that the whole mob can only carry one type of weapon and any deviation of that is against the rules. For example i buy the special weapon first before i decide to have everyone get shootas. By your logic i can't switch the rest of the mob to shootas just because one boy cannot take that shoota option. Am i correct?

If you want to argue intention, then the intention that a local gamer came up with is as follows:

No hidden pks for shootas means people won't just take shoota mobs only, and slugga mobs
will be on the table to hide the pk.

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 11/04/2007 8:02 AM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Care to back that up?  I play IG and there are no options that indicate they have to be taken in any kind of order.  Please don't make up imaginary criteria like that and present them as fact.

Please re-read what I said, and don't ascribe imaginary statements to me.

I said that the IG codex seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written, I didn't state it was a fact that you have to, though I think you are. e.g. HQ unit

• 2 men may form a heavy weapon crew
• any one not a heavy weapon crew may have a special
• 1 not a heavy weapon crew or special weapon may have vox
• any one not a heavy weapon, special, vox may be a vet.

Given how each option is excluding what went before it, it does appear that they are meant to be taken in order, other wise you cold do the following
 
give someone a vox (not excluded as all normal guys)
give all plasma (one now has plasma and vox)
make a heavy crew (both crew have plasma).

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 8:48 AM


while we are at it, a boy with a special weapon cannot change his weapon for a shoota. unless you are arguing that the whole mob can only carry one type of weapon and any deviation of that is against the rules. For example i buy the special weapon first before i decide to have everyone get shootas. By your logic i can't switch the rest of the mob to shootas just because one boy cannot take that shoota option. Am i correct?

People keep suggesting this, to those people, I suggest you try reading the rules instead of making assumptions about them.

Its perfectly legal to trade in a shoota for a rokkit or a big shoota, since the rules state that you may trade in your slugga OR shoota for said weapon.  The rules DO NOT make that same allowance for the Nob were the powerklaw is concerned. 

You should really try reading the army list entry in question before you start arguing points about it.  It reduces the amount of times that you look silly.  Just saying.

Posted By malfred on 11/04/2007 9:24 AM
If you want to argue intention, then the intention that a local gamer came up with is as follows:

No hidden pks for shootas means people won't just take shoota mobs only, and slugga mobs
will be on the table to hide the pk.

Thats the main reason I would quite like to see the shoota PK disallowed, just to make the shootas maybe that little bit less of the no brainer that everyone is saying they are, If only choppa mobs get them then is a little more internal balance between the 2 main troop units.

yes he may trade in his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit, but then the whole mob can't trade in their slugga/choppa for a shoota at that point? Since they all do it. How is that different from the nob? Where he purchases gear first. Obviously the boy w/ big shoota or rokkit isn't going to give up his weapon for a shoota. Especially when he no longer has said weapon to trade over.

you are arguing the fact that he can trade a shoota for said weapon, but what if i do not want to make them all shootas first? Then your argument would be flawed no? So what stops me from upgrading the nob then switching over the shootas? The argument would stand nob + rokkit/big shoota boy would NOT trade in weapons they do not own.

cerealkiller:
And if our answer to that is, "Yes, you're quite right. If he trades in his slugga first, then the whole squad may not swap for shootas. You need to do the shoota swap first in order to get it to work"? What then?

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 9:46 AM
yes he may trade in his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit, but then the whole mob can't trade in their slugga/choppa for a shoota at that point? Since they all do it. How is that different from the nob? Where he purchases gear first. Obviously the boy w/ big shoota or rokkit isn't going to give up his weapon for a shoota. Especially when he no longer has said weapon to trade over.

you are arguing the fact that he can trade a shoota for said weapon, but what if i do not want to make them all shootas first? Then your argument would be flawed no? So what stops me from upgrading the nob then switching over the shootas? The argument would stand nob + rokkit/big shoota boy would NOT trade in weapons they do not own.

I think you have totally missed what that argument was about.

Boyz. choppa/slugga
don't go shoota
change some sluggas for specials
upgrade to nob, can be  a special weapon boy
upgrade nob choppa to PK

Boyz. choppa/slugga
upgrade to shoota
change some shootas for specials
upgrade to nob, can be  aspecial weapon boy
{nob can't upgrade to PK as has no choppa.?}

Both ways you get special weapons, which may be on the nob.

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 9:46 AM
yes he may trade in his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit, but then the whole mob can't trade in their slugga/choppa for a shoota at that point? Since they all do it. How is that different from the nob? Where he purchases gear first. Obviously the boy w/ big shoota or rokkit isn't going to give up his weapon for a shoota. Especially when he no longer has said weapon to trade over.

you are arguing the fact that he can trade a shoota for said weapon, but what if i do not want to make them all shootas first? Then your argument would be flawed no? So what stops me from upgrading the nob then switching over the shootas? The argument would stand nob + rokkit/big shoota boy would NOT trade in weapons they do not own.

Cerealkiller, what are you?  Like 8?  You want to know why your boys can do it in one order and not the other.....? :S

If you're trying to justify the Shoota Nob getting a PK with this arguement, it doesnt work either, since with the current wording, neither order works, Nob or boyz.  Therin lies the problem with the Shoota Nob.

teg i'm arguing that looking to much into the order of the rules is silly. obviously that is not the way it's supposed to be. So that would be my argument for the nob w/ pk it is just an oversight that they will hopefully fix, i just had to pull out that sort of 'tard logic' to try and figure it out from a different stand point.

puree im arguing for the order in which they are picked. Like i stated if you trade in the slugga from the boy for a special weapon even if you dont include the nob, that would mean that none of the orks can switch their slugga and choppas because they ALL can't.

That's nice. Try again when you have an actual RAW argument.


Correct! What's the problem?

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 10:13 AM
teg i'm arguing that looking to much into the order of the rules is silly. obviously that is not the way it's supposed to be. So that would be my argument for the nob w/ pk it is just an oversight that they will hopefully fix, i just had to pull out that sort of 'tard logic' to try and figure it out from a different stand point.

puree im arguing for the order in which they are picked. Like i stated if you trade in the slugga from the boy for a special weapon even if you dont include the nob, that would mean that none of the orks can switch their slugga and choppas because they ALL can't.

It doesnt work EITHER way....

...one more time for the guys in the rear seats, this is straight out of the book...

 

boyz are armed with choppas and sluggas

ENTIRE MOB may replace choppas and sluggas for shootas

One boy may be upgraded to Nob

He may replace his CHOPPA with a power klaw

 

...there you have it, those are the exact wordings.  Upgrade your nob FIRST and the entire mob no longer has choppas AND sluggas to trade in for shootas.  Upgrade him LAST and he has no choppa to trade in for a Klaw and you cant trade in a shoota for one.

....clear as mud?

hey shane i'm not pulling anything personal just trying to make sense of it if you just want it to be a flame war go ahead.

Moving on though if neither of the scenarios work then it's just an oversight in the part of GW. Because the way everyone is arguing makes it seem like you MUST do things in a certain order making it impossible to do any other variation on how you make an army list. This is simply not true there is no such thing/rule as creating an army list in one set way. We just have rules and/or guidelines on what we can take now necessarily how and in what order we take them.

i'm just saying that it doesn't make sense that even if the nob was not concerned that if you upgrade the a big shoota/rokkit boy before the others they cannot change weapons. When i would hope that the assumption would be that you can buy whatever gear you want on your nob and upgrade your boys to carry big shootas and rokkits. While at the same time giving the rest of the boys a shoota. If anything GW reads this thread and fixes the oversight with the possible:

any ork may trade his slugga/choppa for a shoota for: free
1 in 10 orks may trade his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit at X pts
1 boy may be upgraded to nob that can trade his slugga/choppa/shoot for X weapons and Y cost.

i'm only keeping this up to catch attention if it is true they lurk these boards they would fix this and my whole intent would be justified.

along w/ stormboyz getting the WAAAGH rule
giving deffkoptas mob rule can you say useless? they only max out at 5...
and so forth

Exactly. You can construct your army list in whatever order you like--only some orders will leave you unable to do certain things by virtue of the way the rules are phrased.

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 10:20 AM
hey shane i'm not pulling anything personal just trying to make sense of it if you just want it to be a flame war go ahead.

No flame intended, but if you dont read and study the rules, you cant discuss a RAW issue.  You couldnt have read them based on your arguement.

i will agree to your statement even if it is against intent. personally i hope they fix it in the final print even though people aren't supposed to be "playing" with the dex now. I have been playing with orks since 98 so i admit i'm a bit touchy on the subject.

if shoota mobs are intended to never carry a PK or BC nob thats fine. But GW should at least phrase it so a player cannot possibly phase out the shoota option if they first take the big shoota or rokkit on regular mobs.

Wait, so your whole argument has basically been, "You guys are right, but I wish it weren't so and I hope they'll change it in a FAQ"? You could have just said that and most people would have agreed with you.

I would in a heartbeat, thats for sure.

Shane, you can stop posting the same thing over and over and over again. We get that you think slugga mobs can't take a powerklaw. It doesn't mean you need to post it in every single thread. Many people disagree with you. . .so be it. It's practically getting to the point where it almost seems as if you're trolling for trouble.


And your argument still hangs on the logical fallacy that if the entire mob doesn't have sluggas and choppas then they cannot replace their weapons for the shoota which is simply untrue.

As I said before, if you have a classroom with kids, half with pencils and half with a piece of chalk and you say: "the entire class may replace their pencils with pens" all that means is that the kids with pencils would replace them with pens. The fact that some kids in the class have chalk (and don't get to exchange it) would not prevent the exchange from occuring.

There is absolutely nothing in the rules to suggest that you cannot exchange all of the sluggas and choppas in the mob for shootas if some of the models in the mob don't have a slugga and choppa. You seem to wish this rule exists, but it simply does not.

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:42 AM


As I said before, if you have a classroom with kids, half with pencils and half with a piece of chalk and you say: "the entire class may replace their pencils with pens" all that means is that the kids with pencils would replace them with pens. The fact that some kids in the class have chalk (and don't get to exchange it) would not prevent the exchange from occuring.

It would probably result in half the class asking what they should do.

[edit: actually I don't disagree with what you said. My argument has based on ordering - ie you woud have to do that first, so it will exchange all boyz. ]

These are just cheezer players crying because shoota boyz with power klaws are more dead ard than many of there close combat specialists.  If we want to play the word game to pee on someones cornflakes the way they design there army, we could just as easily bold and highlight one part of the sentence to change the whole meaning.

The entire mob MAY exchange there sluggas and choppas for shootas.  Suddenly EVERY boy has the option to do so or not do so.  See what I can do with just as valid word games?  Now my 30 strong squad not only can exchange for bigger weapons/power klaws, but I may have a mix of whatever I desire.  So I think Ill take 20 shootas, and 10 sluggas.  The shootas can used ranged to soften em up and aslo absorb the incoming shots for my better in meelee guys to slog across the board unscathed and unleash there 4 attacks each (2 base 2 weapons and charge).  So anyone who wants to argue with me in some tourney about his opinion being law will find himself argueing with me and a judge for the rest of the game.

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:42 AM

Shane, you can stop posting the same thing over and over and over again. We get that you think slugga mobs can't take a powerklaw. It doesn't mean you need to post it in every single thread. Many people disagree with you. . .so be it. It's practically getting to the point where it almost seems as if you're trolling for trouble.


And your argument still hangs on the logical fallacy that if the entire mob doesn't have sluggas and choppas then they cannot replace their weapons for the shoota which is simply untrue.

As I said before, if you have a classroom with kids, half with pencils and half with a piece of chalk and you say: "the entire class may replace their pencils with pens" all that means is that the kids with pencils would replace them with pens. The fact that some kids in the class have chalk (and don't get to exchange it) would not prevent the exchange from occuring.

There is absolutely nothing in the rules to suggest that you cannot exchange all of the sluggas and choppas in the mob for shootas if some of the models in the mob don't have a slugga and choppa. You seem to wish this rule exists, but it simply does not.

Maybe I'm just trying to be heard.

Originally, I myself planned on the big shoota-boy squad with PK Nob, I dont see those mobs as a safe buy now, $-wise, not point wise.  Not when you'll be picking up 120-180 boys possibly of one type in an army.  10 boys per box, we'll say 30 dollars a box 360 bucks worth of WORTHLESS boys if things dont go your way and you dont want to use them anymore, converting and rebuilding aside.

YAK-Your arguement still hangs on the logical fallacy that if the entire mob doesnt have sluggas and choppas that they cannot replace their weapons for the shoota which is simply untrue.

How so?  How is this a logical fallacy?  What does "entire mob" mean in this context?  Its seems just as simple to me to make the rule "All models with sluggas and choppas may replace them with shootas"   Same number of words and less confusion.  "All students with pencils may replace them with pens" (by the way, GW doesnt run our schools so that example should be thrown out, but I'll humour it since I can turn it around to serve me)  If the kids are young children, your example would indeed confuse them, tell me some these 8 year olds with chalk wouldnt raise their hands wondering what they should do.  You cant assume that children are going to know what to do.  GW has to hand hold us through rules since half of the time they make no sense thanx to bad wording.  They have to treat US like children because they're speaking a different language half of the time with poorly written rulebooks. 

DAKKA seems most of the time to be all about RAW.  Right down to bashing people who want to charge after firing a bolt pistol.  If you follow the strict wording of the rule in question, you cant switch over to shootas after the pk Nob happens assuming you upgrade out of order of the entries as you're suggesting.  Strict wording, Entire Mob, Nob is part of the mob, same as if he would HAVE to buy stikbombs if you wanted them ("The entire mob may take stikkbombs"-actual rule)  No logical fallacy, just anal interpretation.

Posted By Orock on 11/04/2007 12:52 PM

The entire mob MAY exchange there sluggas and choppas for shootas.  Suddenly EVERY boy has the option to do so or not do so. 

I dont see how you come to that conclusion.  It still says entire mob, all highlighting the MAY did was accent the fact that the entire mob has a choice, not each individual ork has a choice, as in..."up to 30 orks may exchange their sluggas and choppas for shootas" as is done for multiple options IN EVERY OTHER CODEX.

Soooo.... did burnas act as power weapons / blowtorches in the previous codex?

Burnas were power weapons and flamers AND added 2d6 to armor penetration in CC.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 1:08 PM

Posted By Orock on 11/04/2007 12:52 PM

The entire mob MAY exchange there sluggas and choppas for shootas.  Suddenly EVERY boy has the option to do so or not do so. 

I dont see how you come to that conclusion.  It still says entire mob, all highlighting the MAY did was accent the fact that the entire mob has a choice, not each individual ork has a choice, as in..."up to 30 orks may exchange their sluggas and choppas for shootas" as is done for multiple options IN EVERY OTHER CODEX.

NO, each boy has a choice to replace his slugga and choppa with a shoota.  Orks can run mixed mobs unlike every other codex out there.  I can have half the boyz in the mob with slugga and choppa's and half with shootas.  Just because everyone likes to run mobs with all the same weapons doesn't mean they  have to.  

Posted By morfangdakka on 11/04/2007 3:57 PM
NO, each boy has a choice to replace his slugga and choppa with a shoota.  Orks can run mixed mobs unlike every other codex out there.  I can have half the boyz in the mob with slugga and choppa's and half with shootas.  Just because everyone likes to run mobs with all the same weapons doesn't mean they  have to.  

As said before, the may is indicating you have an option. The option being entire mob exchanges X for Y. you can't choose not to exchange some.

Whether you can take the option where some boyz don't have X, tempted to agree with Yak on that, you could possibly do that. But certainly not choose to not exchange some boyz whilst doing others.

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:42 AM

As I said before, if you have a classroom with kids, half with pencils and half with a piece of chalk and you say: "the entire class may replace their pencils with pens" all that means is that the kids with pencils would replace them with pens. The fact that some kids in the class have chalk (and don't get to exchange it) would not prevent the exchange from occuring.

If some of the kids aren't exchanging, it isn't the entire class exchanging it.

I was thinking on this...Say you have a special rule called 'Stasis' which prevents a single model from moving for any reason whatsoever (Including other special rules).

Say you have a unit that has a special rule that says that the entire unit may move exactly 12" in the same direction.

If you hit one model in that unit with Stasis, then would the rest of the unit be able to move using their special rule, leaving the one model behind, or would the whole unit be unable to use that rule?

Yes, the "mob" has the option to replace their weapon. Either the mob chooses that option or it does not.

If it chooses to do so, then any models in the unit that have a slugga and choppa would exchange it for a Shoota. Models that don't have a slugga and choppa wouldn't exchange anything.

Posted By skyth on 11/04/2007 4:40 PM

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:42 AM

As I said before, if you have a classroom with kids, half with pencils and half with a piece of chalk and you say: "the entire class may replace their pencils with pens" all that means is that the kids with pencils would replace them with pens. The fact that some kids in the class have chalk (and don't get to exchange it) would not prevent the exchange from occuring.

If some of the kids aren't exchanging, it isn't the entire class exchanging it.

I was thinking on this...Say you have a special rule called 'Stasis' which prevents a single model from moving for any reason whatsoever (Including other special rules).

Say you have a unit that has a special rule that says that the entire unit may move exactly 12" in the same direction.

If you hit one model in that unit with Stasis, then would the rest of the unit be able to move using their special rule, leaving the one model behind, or would the whole unit be unable to use that rule?

If every kid in the class who has the specified item exchanges it, then yes the entire class has exchanged their one item for the other.

Your "stasis" example is extremely flawed because there are all sort of other rules in the game from preventing what you describe from happening (the coherency rules and the rules about moving at the rate of the slowest model, for example).

No, if they didn't have it then they didn't exchange it and thus only half the class exchanged them, not the entire class.

Posted By skyth on 11/04/2007 4:48 PM
No, if they didn't have it then they didn't exchange it and thus only half the class exchanged them, not the entire class.

The entire class did exchange the item. Some students in the class didn't, but the class as a whole still did.



 

Yakface is right, "New Orleans was completely flooded.", now was ALL of it flooded? No, but it was enough to claim that New Orleans, as a whole, was flooded.
Same thing with "Transformers was a complete success.", Im sure there were some people who didn't like transformers, but as a whole, it was a complete success.

Posted By skyth on 11/04/2007 4:40 PM

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:42 AM

As I said before, if you have a classroom with kids, half with pencils and half with a piece of chalk and you say: "the entire class may replace their pencils with pens" all that means is that the kids with pencils would replace them with pens. The fact that some kids in the class have chalk (and don't get to exchange it) would not prevent the exchange from occuring.

If some of the kids aren't exchanging, it isn't the entire class exchanging it.

I was thinking on this...Say you have a special rule called 'Stasis' which prevents a single model from moving for any reason whatsoever (Including other special rules).

Say you have a unit that has a special rule that says that the entire unit may move exactly 12" in the same direction.

If you hit one model in that unit with Stasis, then would the rest of the unit be able to move using their special rule, leaving the one model behind, or would the whole unit be unable to use that rule?

If a unit of 3 killa kans advances, but one is immobalized, and the other 2 advance, it is treated as destroyed after it gets out of unit coherancy.  There is a rule for that.  And there are rules against moving mobs in units as an opponent different amounts.  This means no moving your opponents mekboy 6 inches and the grot oilers only 3 so he cannot use them for bonuses to fix vehicles.

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 4:56 PM

The entire class did exchange the item. Some students in the class didn't...

That's utterly contradictory. Note the difference in the wording for Big shotas and Rokkits.

I'll wait for the FAQ thanks, I think it will allow Power Klaws in Shoota mobs but not because the rulebook wording supports it, just because it's a dumb ruling. Assuming that this is the final wording we've been reading, which it may not be.

Posted By George Spiggott on 11/04/2007 5:39 PM
I'll wait for the FAQ thanks,

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play with the new Orks before hell freezes over will need to come up with a generally accepted ruling on the issue.

Sure, and how many Orks are you dealing with when you have to walk there? Obviously this is nothing that we can put a hard number to, but even with a Waagh move, you're looking at a lot of turns of walking, and a lot of dead Orks. How many do you have to start your walk with, to end up with 72?

One way to look at it is to ask what a Trukk costs. Mine cost about 9 Boyz worth, but could easily cost less. You're virtually guaranteed a turn 2 assault that way, and you're also adding a Rokkit and a Wreckin Ball. You've got inches to spare to hide behind cover, get into the backfield after more costly units, etc.

It's not like a KFF is cheap, either. You're paying quite a bit for it, plus a relatively useless HQ to carry it. It costs about 14 Boyz worth. And it can't kill anything.

Actually, that creates one fairly direct way to look at it: The Mek is basically a Glorified Nob based on statline, so deduct that cost from his total, and just factor in the cost of the KFF and his extra points, that leaves about 12 Boyz worth of points being used up to field one KFF. If the KFF is going to get its points back, it's going to protect those same 12 Boyz. And if it saves 12 Boyz by giving them a 5+ save, then one assumes that 24 other Boyz will have died.

So, where does that leave things? A Trukk Mob gets you 12 Boyz and a Trukk. For the same basic price, you can get a foot Mob of about 20-22 Boyz with Klawnob. I dunno. Maybe I'm not proving that footsloggers are weaker, so much that the KFF might be a waste of points (and you'd have to factor in Kans, etc. etc. with the KFF).

Regardless, there's no way footsloggers should be assaulting before turn 3, and really, it's not hard to push that off to turn 4. That's two extra turns of shooting they have to walk through. Not only that, but they're doing it in more or less a straight line. I can see Trukks using cover the whole way in, and in some cases taking no shooting at all.



You're right here, I should probably temper my certainty somewhat. Your points on morale are very valid, but they point me more back towards Stormboyz (20 man Mobs) than to footsloggers, IMO, especically given the huge losses you'd have to take to make a KFF worth buying.

Even so, it all comes down to if you're taking morale tests, and when. I haven't played my Orks a ton, but I play them as footsloggers with 2 KFFs and one Trukk. The Trukk Mob was always getting the charge, always winning the combat, and never really needing to test morale. By comparison, the Boyz were getting hacked apart by shooting, 5+ saves or not. That gives me a predisposition to assume that Trukk Boyz won't be losing combats as you suggest, but I only run one Trukk, I might just be hitting juicy targets with it. Things might change when everything is Trukks.

Honestly, I hope you're right about all of this, I've got a footslogging mob painted up already, and could be playing it under the new rules with little or no changes.



Exactly. I get tired of watching people debate ambiguous rules. If it wasn't ambiguous, one side could probably prove their case.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 4:20 AM

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

You need to go check what the word 'may' means. I think you have it confused with 'must'. Every boyz squad nob can clearly take a klaw.

If I say 'the entire class may stop using a pencil and start using a pen' it doesn't mean everyone has to actually us a pen or no one can, just that the entire class has the option. Technically, as written one can argue that you can mix and match shootas and sluggas all you like.

But this doesn't belong here.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/04/2007 5:48 PM
Regardless, there's no way footsloggers should be assaulting before turn 3,

Waagh on turn 1 and turn 2 plus charge = average 25" movement.

Dual warpheads has >50% chance of getting a waagh turn 1.

Posted By mauleed on 11/04/2007 5:55 PM

You need to go check what the word 'may' means. I think you have it confused with 'must'. Every boyz squad nob can clearly take a klaw.

...and you, mauleed, need to go check what the word 'must' means. Since if the rule stated "the entire mob MUST trade thier choppas and sluggas for shootas" then there would be no such thing as slugga boys.  Every boyz squad cannot CLEARLY take a Klaw under the current exact wording.

...right now the poll on this subject stands at 15 to 6, between a third to 1/2 agree with my point.  Thats enough for me to say that every nob taking a claw is NOT a clear matter.

I don't care if 99 out of 100 agree with you if the 1 that doesn't is the smartest.

Knock yourself out debating it, but so far I'm completely unimpressed with your stance.

 

Posted By mauleed on 11/04/2007 6:41 PM

I don't care if 99 out of 100 agree with you if the 1 that doesn't is the smartest.

Knock yourself out debating it, but so far I'm completely unimpressed with your stance.

 

....and I suppose you'd be that one.

....thats a portion of the reason for posting in a forum, debate.  So yes, I'll continue to enjoy debating it.

...I'm also unconcerned with impressing you my friend, unlike so many others that we see here often, validation by mauleed is not the highest goal that I have in posting here....quite the contrary in fact.

Yeah, I'd agree that argument could be made, which only goes to show how ambiguous the rule is.

I mean, you could say that Shootas can't have a Klaw. You could say they can. You could say you can mix and match Shoota and Sluggas. You could even argue, as I pointed out elsewhere, that you always end up with only two Shootas if you make the exchange.

There are about six distinct interpretations I've seen that have reasonable support in the RAW. THAT is what I'd call ambiguous.

at least we can all agree that the rule is quite ambigious enough to warrant that they change it either definitely one way or another. As to limit how many interpretations can be made

Cool, so I may have a unit of nobz on foot with some on bikes then, also I may only take a few stikkbomz on a few guys in a unit.

The one thing that actually has me worried, and I have been looking through the book, is that trukkboyz can get royally nailed as they speed across the board now. Any pen hit makes them disembark, and they get no better save now from what I can find, and actually any disembarking from the trukk when you are going over 12" wounds 50% of the mounted orks, and can pretty much make the unit ineffective. Anyone else see anything that effects them, because in a sense that makes them a heck of a lot worse than they used to be.

Posted By Toreador on 11/04/2007 9:02 PM
Cool, so I may have a unit of nobz on foot with some on bikes then, also I may only take a few stikkbomz on a few guys in a unit.

The one thing that actually has me worried, and I have been looking through the book, is that trukkboyz can get royally nailed as they speed across the board now. Any pen hit makes them disembark, and they get no better save now from what I can find, and actually any disembarking from the trukk when you are going over 12" wounds 50% of the mounted orks, and can pretty much make the unit ineffective. Anyone else see anything that effects them, because in a sense that makes them a heck of a lot worse than they used to be.

How can you possibly conclude they are a heck of a lot worse then they used to be? The mere fact that they aren't automatically entangled when the Trukk is destroyed makes them inifinitely more useful.

You are right though. . .a penetrating hit that doesn't destroy the vehicle would follow the normal vehicle rules and all the models would suffer a wound on a 4+ (and have to disembark). This is obviously strange since a Trukk that is actually destroyed does less damage than this (because of the 'Ramshackle' rule).

I guess "luckily" any penetrating roll of a 3+ (because of the open-topped rule) destroys the Trukk so you won't face the situation too often.

Any Pen hit makes passengers disembark. That's in the BGB, p68.

I think you're (badly) misreading these rules. They replace the normal rules for when the Trukk is Destroyed or Explodes (but, bizzarely, not when other results occur) and they're much more favorable in many ways.

The "Kaboom" result is the worst thing that can happen, and it's already better than a Destroyed or Explodes result. Normally everyone is wounded on a 4+. In a Kaboom result, for T4 Orks, they're wounded on a 5+. Normally the unit is automatically entangled. The Orks will only have to take a pinning test.

"Kareen" is mostly the same thing, but with a movement beforehand, which the Ork player may end up controlling anyway.

"Kerrunch" is great, it basically makes it totally safe to be in an exploding Trukk.

To put that all in context, if you've got 12 Boyz in a Trukk and it gets Kaboomed, you're going to lose some Orks. You're not going to lose the Nob, since he's got 2W. The rest of the Boyz (11 of them) will suffer 3.67 wounds, and about 3 of them will die. Then the pinning test is taken with 9 Orks in the Mob, Ld9, which is a 5/6 chance to pass.

So, bottom line, killing a Trukk has a 1 in 6 chance of stopping the Orks inside. Killing a transport normally has a 100% chance to stop the models inside.

The oddness here is that in many ways the Orks would rather the Trukk just blew up than it got stunned. When it's stunned with a Pen hit, they take wounds on a 4+, lose more Orks, and have a worse chance of getting pinned as a result.

That is why I concluded it Yak. Last night one of my two trukks took a penetrating hit that didn't destroy it. I would have been fine if we had the old trukkboy rules as I wouldn't have lost many of my unit. Couldn't find anything in the book last night that made it any better.

Trukks on the most part will always be moving over 12" a round. As you said, any penetrating hit causes a disembarkation. If you read the trukk entry it uses the same language. All of the entries from Kaboom to Kerrunch also cause a disembarkation. Thus causing a wound on any models on a 4+. If the Kaboom effect is also rolled you will also take a Str 3 hit on all passengers before disembarking. This all hinges on the disembarkation rule. It oddly overlaps. In the main rulebook it never calls emergency disembarkation that except for the table. All other rules just state the unit disembarks, and then you use the table to see the effect. I don't see anything saying you never use the table, just that you apply the results instead of the usual effects. It still causes a disembarkation at speed. It somewhat contradicts itself. The one thing that stands is that any penetrating non destroying hit can cause you to loose over half your boys. The rest is up to interpretation. I don't believe it should, but in the short time we had last night we had people on both sides of  it.

It's really pretty nasty. Noticed this last night in my game against a nid list. The lower init really made a difference too. I was always taking hits first when I charged in. It really helps that orks have as many attacks as they do, and I won out in the end through sheer brute force. Hormagaunts made a real mess of boyz, but it came out even because of the points cost. Ard boyz in this fight were very useful as they took a lot fewer wounds in CC, thus causing a lot more hits. The trukk thing really worries me though. Its very easy to shoot trukks and put the fragile cargo out of the fight. The small mob size of the orks and the ld combine to be very very harsh. In the past blowing me out of my trukk made little difference as I was only hit on a 6. I still had a viable cargo, now I don't.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 6:46 PM
....thats a portion of the reason for posting in a forum, debate.  So yes, I'll continue to enjoy debating it.

  I didn't realize that repeating the same thing over and over again constituted a debate.  I learn something new every day. 

  What do you guys think about Battle Wagon mounted boyz?  I'm kinda leaning toward mounting half my troops in Battlewagons, and half of 'em in Trukks.  The trukks and my fast attack boyz hit the enemy lines first, tie up the enemy's guns, then the bigger mobz in the battlewagons come in the second wave. 

Posted By Toreador on 11/04/2007 10:42 PM
That is why I concluded it Yak. Last night one of my two trukks took a penetrating hit that didn't destroy it. I would have been fine if we had the old trukkboy rules as I wouldn't have lost many of my unit. Couldn't find anything in the book last night that made it any better.

Trukks on the most part will always be moving over 12" a round. As you said, any penetrating hit causes a disembarkation. If you read the trukk entry it uses the same language. All of the entries from Kaboom to Kerrunch also cause a disembarkation. Thus causing a wound on any models on a 4+. If the Kaboom effect is also rolled you will also take a Str 3 hit on all passengers before disembarking. This all hinges on the disembarkation rule. It oddly overlaps. In the main rulebook it never calls emergency disembarkation that except for the table. All other rules just state the unit disembarks, and then you use the table to see the effect. I don't see anything saying you never use the table, just that you apply the results instead of the usual effects. It still causes a disembarkation at speed. It somewhat contradicts itself. The one thing that stands is that any penetrating non destroying hit can cause you to loose over half your boys. The rest is up to interpretation. I don't believe it should, but in the short time we had last night we had people on both sides of  it.

It's really pretty nasty. Noticed this last night in my game against a nid list. The lower init really made a difference too. I was always taking hits first when I charged in. It really helps that orks have as many attacks as they do, and I won out in the end through sheer brute force. Hormagaunts made a real mess of boyz, but it came out even because of the points cost. Ard boyz in this fight were very useful as they took a lot fewer wounds in CC, thus causing a lot more hits. The trukk thing really worries me though. Its very easy to shoot trukks and put the fragile cargo out of the fight. The small mob size of the orks and the ld combine to be very very harsh. In the past blowing me out of my trukk made little difference as I was only hit on a 6. I still had a viable cargo, now I don't.

Well, the Ramshackle rule says you "apply the result instead of the usual effects." That is obviously a very broad term but taken at its face value means that when a Trukk suffers a Destroyed or Explodes result you use the Ramshackle result instead of all effects normally associated with a Trukk being destroyed or exploding.

One of those effects is clearly forcing an emergency disembarkation of the passengers and as such it is ignored in favor of the Ramshackle rule.

And it didn't matter if how many Trukk boyz survived with the old Ork codex as your opponent had another turn to wipe them or just move away.

 

In the poster for the Ork Spearhead the Ork boy unit are shootas...and their nob has a PK and slugga.

http://warseer.com/forums/2062005-post263.html

Now this may mean nothing, as GW frequently assembles their studio models anyway they please...But I'm choosing to see this as RAI and hopefully and end to this stupid arguement.


Dosadi

On a pen forced disembarkation it's the same new as old, except you only took hits on 6's instead of 4's. So in a way getting a non destroying pen hit is better (worse for the ork player) than destroying it, lol.

Posted By Toreador on 11/05/2007 6:55 AM
On a pen forced disembarkation it's the same new as old, except you only took hits on 6's instead of 4's. So in a way getting a non destroying pen hit is better (worse for the ork player) than destroying it, lol.

Yup its amusing, which is half the fun of an ork army.  There is some real potential in this codex to build a luck based army that could either win big through sheer luck and comedy, or do the same losing.  Either way cant think of a more amusing casual army to play.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_JsKZ1YCU6Z4/Ry3PY5Q8JcI/AAAAAAAAAYw/9ClrJWbo5oc/s1600-h/ork_1.JPG

Oh lawd, is that sum orkses with shootas that have a nob NOT armed with a shoota?  And on the back picture of the official codex no less?  Can that arguement DIE a horrible death now?

Yes, but again it makes no sense. Why would the orks just getting out because they are afraid the trukk is going to blow take more damage than when the trukk explodes? Enemies will be hoping for a non destroying pen result, instead of destroyed. Like the no PK shoota thing, it just doesn't make much sense.

My thought on seeing the new dex was simply "Wow." After the disaster that was the new CSM dex, I was very worried that the book would be thin, boring, and superficial. I have to say I was surprised.

Pros:
-LOTS of great fluff - stuff not seen since 2nd ed., Gorka, etc! Concise and well-organized. Why didn't they do this for CSM, Eldar, or SMs?
-Great new artwork (interspersed w/ the normal cut-and-paste previous artwork but...). I'm nuts about the Rokkit Squig on p28, definitely going to add one to my stormboyz unit for decorative purposes.
-The return of the Shokk gun, Weirdboyz, etc.
-Deth Koptas!
-Independent Nob mobz as Elites PLUS the ability to mount them on bikes!
-Lootas' "Deffgunz", even w/ BS2 15+ shots/turn average will HAVE to hit something.
-An entirely Burna-armed unit of Burna Boyz!
-Different abilities for Wartrukks, Trakks, and Skorchas (good idea, this will certainly sell more models, GW)
-Killa Kanz new "Grotzooka" weapon (I can see this being useful against horde armies)
-Few new special characters and the return of some old ones
-Nearly every unit has access to either a Trukk or Battlewagon
-The new Battlewagon rocks (SO glad I did not get rid of my converted KV2 Gigant!)

Cons:
-The "new and (un)improved format of separate unit lists/special rules and army lists. It's incredibly annoying to have to flip back and forth 20+ pages to make sure your army list is working right or to try and find something during a game. ARGH!
-Tankbustas kind of stink now, esp. w/ the "Glory Hogz" rule
-Kommandos still kind of stink (but I'll still take them!)
-Not necessarily a bad thing, but Bikes seem a bit less useful...
-Gretchin lose the meat shield rule (again, not really a bad thing, just not as fun)
-Attack Squigs for the Warboss cost WAY TOO MUCH

I can honestly say this is the first codex since IG that i'm really anxious to spend my money on. As an Ork player and a recent convert to Gorkamorka, I feel like this is the first of the new dexs to really cater to the long-standing fans of 40K. I also feel like this is the first of the new dexs to cater to the uber-power players and the beer-and-pretzels crowd in equal proportion.

Excellent work GW!

Tankbustas are really really useful, as there are few things that are sure to take out specific targets like a tankbusta can. I fired turn after turn with a 6 man loota squad at a Carnifex that I really needed to get rid of, but the only thing that could take him down was the tankbustas and PK orks. I ended up wasting a couple of turns of Lootas that could have been at a better target, because they just couldn't take him down... (damn saves)


I actually liked the dex layout once I got use to it. I knew about where everything was, and when I couldn't immediatly flip to it, there were page number references everywhere. I had to reference the old ork dex a few times, and remember how bad it actually was. I was completely lost finding things in it, then ran into the worse thing... the weapons with NO stats listed in that book as they were in the main one... gah!


Okay, I have now looked at the book, and have a little worry. It worried me last night in a quick glance, it worries me now with a little more research. I am not pushing this because I think it is one way or the other. What I like is discussion on the subject giving all sides. It really helps to have all forms of the argument.

Okay Ramshackle lets you ignore the usual effects of the vehicle damage tables. If you read those effects it says they must disembark. If you read those rules in the main book, you can't disembark if the vehicle goes over 12". That is covered under emergency disembarkation, which then gives you the entangled and 4+ wound result.

So do we ignore all the effects from both the vehicle damage table, and the emergency disembarkation table? Or is it vague enough that people could argue it only replaces the vehicle damage part, and that disembarkation is an entirely other set of rules?

We have already established that a non destroying penetrating hit follows the normal rules, and is bad for boyz, but I want to make sure I am clear on the rest of it. Sadly that rule is vague enough to make me question things also.

Has anyone else noticed that looted wagons (the new rhino eqivalents) don't come as a squadron (the way the old looted vehicles did so long as you kept their points <=50? That will hurt players who used 3 looted rhinos, as they're unlikely to want to use up all 3 Heavy slots merely for slightly tougher trukk equivalents. I guess they'll have to start ripping the roofs off (or at least the top and side hatches) to make them into 'count as' trukks...

Posted By Toreador on 11/05/2007 10:22 AM


Okay, I have now looked at the book, and have a little worry. It worried me last night in a quick glance, it worries me now with a little more research. I am not pushing this because I think it is one way or the other. What I like is discussion on the subject giving all sides. It really helps to have all forms of the argument.

Okay Ramshackle lets you ignore the usual effects of the vehicle damage tables. If you read those effects it says they must disembark. If you read those rules in the main book, you can't disembark if the vehicle goes over 12". That is covered under emergency disembarkation, which then gives you the entangled and 4+ wound result.

So do we ignore all the effects from both the vehicle damage table, and the emergency disembarkation table? Or is it vague enough that people could argue it only replaces the vehicle damage part, and that disembarkation is an entirely other set of rules?

We have already established that a non destroying penetrating hit follows the normal rules, and is bad for boyz, but I want to make sure I am clear on the rest of it. Sadly that rule is vague enough to make me question things also.

Read my last post again. Ramshackle ignores the normal effects of a Trukk being destroyed, this includes the rules for emergency disembarking. There simply isn't any other way to interpret it.


The only way you could argue otherwise would be to say that units in a vehicle that suffer a penetrating hit disembark before the damage roll is even made, in which case you'd also be playing that all passengers take double wounds: once for emergency disembarking ( with a re-roll if the vehicle was moving over 6" ) and then another set of wounds from the vehicle if it explodes.

Nobody I've met plays the game this way, so I think you can safely rest assured that everyone will read the Ramshackle rule the same way: it replaces all effects of a vehicle being destroyed with its own set of rules. That means no emergency disembarking, no entanglement, and no double set of damage.

 I got a good read of the new Codex like most of you and I'm excited about some things, but also disappointed.

 I still don't understand why a hulking mass of muscles is only a S3. It just doesn't make sense that an Ork has the same strength of a Grunt Guardsman. They've added the Furious Charge rule, but can someone explain to me how this will benefit and Ork against other HtH armies? Take Marines, at I4 we're going to go last now instead of simo, which usually meant we'd win the first round of combat, I'm not really seeing how this is going to factor into anything but worse, maybe I'm not seeing the big picture?

 Also, I didn't see anywhere that stated a Warboss could take a retinue. Maybe I overlooked it? It doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to me you're Warboss is now a little less effective? Again, I guess I might be overlooking something.

 I do love most of the changes and additions to the book mind you, but the boys in my store had dreams of a true "Waaagh" rolling over the hill in numbers and strength and it seems that you're not going to have that effectively.



Wookie

 

Posted By sugarwookie on 11/05/2007 2:11 PM
 I got a good read of the new Codex like most of you and I'm excited about some things, but also disappointed.

 I still don't understand why a hulking mass of muscles is only a S3. It just doesn't make sense that an Ork has the same strength of a Grunt Guardsman. They've added the Furious Charge rule, but can someone explain to me how this will benefit and Ork against other HtH armies? Take Marines, at I4 we're going to go last now instead of simo, which usually meant we'd win the first round of combat, I'm not really seeing how this is going to factor into anything but worse, maybe I'm not seeing the big picture?

 Also, I didn't see anywhere that stated a Warboss could take a retinue. Maybe I overlooked it? It doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to me you're Warboss is now a little less effective? Again, I guess I might be overlooking something.

 I do love most of the changes and additions to the book mind you, but the boys in my store had dreams of a true "Waaagh" rolling over the hill in numbers and strength and it seems that you're not going to have that effectively.



Wookie

 

Take a little time and do the math. For the points, the boyz do more damage now (without a Choppa) then they did with the Choppa (being more points per model).

Now, I agree with you on the fluff of having Orks be S3. . .I would have personally made them S4 WS3 (cause Orks shouldn't be "skilled" in cobmat, just strong IMO) but then you wouldn't have been able to make them as cheap in points (cause a S4 is MUCH more useful than a WS4 in close combat), so it is just the decision they decided to stick with in order to make the army work (and I think it does work now).


And Warbosses like all ICs since the Eldar codex cannot take a retinue. A retinue was clunky rules design that caused all sorts of issues (like the: is an IC with a retinue still an IC? rules debacle).

If you want a retinue you just have to take a separate unit and join it to the boss yourself.

It is an oddity, and I agree it doesn't make sense. It just makes me very very uneasy.

Boyz really need the charge now, but even in that they are brutal. I had a 12 boy Stormboyz mob with PK nob charge 16 hormagaunts in a house. His mistake, he hid them so Lootas couldn't shoot them. We struck simultaneous and I let him roll first. He killed a few, but then I struck back with my 40 odd str 4 attacks. It's funny to see a nid player taken aback by the amount of attacks I get, and for the points. In two turns I was able to take the hormagaunts in close combat along with a zoanthrope, then onto finishing off a 1 wnd carnifex. The boyz are still very tough in CC, and at the new points cost, they can bring the numbers. I used two foot slogging units of 20, and put a major hurt on him with the numbers.

Great thing too is if you want to take a retinue, the most likely choice (nobz) become troops. It then frees up the elite slots for other things.

I see where you're coming from Yak, but do wish they'd made them S4, maybe I'll understand more when I begin playtesting the new list.

One thing that amazes me is that, when taking a squad of Tank Bustas, or Burna Boyz is that they all come with standard Rocket Launchas, or Burnas respectively. Is this a typo? If not, a squad of 10-15 RL's will actually make Zilla Bugs and Falcon lovers wince a little.

I'm a little behind with the new codex being leaked, as I quit the game after spending hundreds of dollars on models for a Feral list and finding out before a GT it was banned. I figured I'd give the game a break and wait to see how our Boyz fared when the book was released. I'm happy to say I'll be playing once more and probably with a little more Ommph to my army.

What do you feel are the hands down best units now that we're all gettng a peak? I'd love to hear some ideas that are being kicked around, though maybe it's being discussed in another part of the forums? If so forgive me and point me in the right direction?


Cheers!

Lootas...I always thought Dark Reapers were the kings in high rate of fire, long range fire support. Not anymore I guess...

Greets
Schepp himself

Its the basic I2 that really rubs salt in my wounds. FC is ok, except when your limited on numbers. I.E. trukkers. As it is, no trukk boy mob has a chance of winning against any other assaultish squad in the game. Against 10 man assault marines we loose 5 orks before getting to swing even if we charged. 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds 2 dead. How the hell is the PK nob supposed to get another 3 kills just to tie, and possibly 4 so that we might win. Now we are taking an LD check on a 6 with a reroll. Fail that and we are most likely wiped out on the massacure check.

I'm really worried about this. I'm not sure it will be possible to bring enough of the boys. Softening up with shooting is a possibilty except that trukkers are supposed to work in enemy territory. Its not likely your going to get much shooting support save what they bring with them.

Now I know that trukkers with trukk are 170ish points and assault marines tend to be in the 250 range.  But what good is killing 100 points of marines then loosing 130 points of boys (on the turn you charged).  Something just doesn't seem right here.  If we could attack simo (like in the old dex) at least we had an easier chance of bring the combat to a draw.

First of all 12 trukk boyz and a nob come to about 100+ pts (not including the cost of the trukk). Perhaps you could consider the consequence of charging a 100 pt of boyz into 250 pts of SM?

Attack the assault marine squad with 2 squads of boyz and see what 200+ pts of boyz does to 250 pts of marines.

Take shoota boy trukkers and fire 23 str 4 shots into the marines first, each squad of 12 boyz shot drop 1.25 marines before you even assault.

Ork Boyz are simply awesome.

First of all 12 trukk boyz and a nob come to about 100+ pts (not including the cost of the trukk). Perhaps you could consider the consequence of charging a 100 pt of boyz into 250 pts of SM?

Attack the assault marine squad with 2 squads of boyz and see what 200+ pts of boyz does to 250 pts of marines.

Take shoota boy trukkers and fire 23 str 4 shots into the marines first, each squad of 12 boyz shot drop 1.25 marines before you even assault.

Ork Boyz are simply awesome.

Is it definite on what models are going to be put out with the new Codex? I know of the truck, bikes, burnas along with the Big Mek. Anything else you've heard are going to be produced to support the new line?

Boyz and Lootas will also be in the first wave of releases, and a big mek with a shokk attack gun.

Posted By Jayden63 on 11/05/2007 3:53 PM
Its the basic I2 that really rubs salt in my wounds. FC is ok, except when your limited on numbers. I.E. trukkers. As it is, no trukk boy mob has a chance of winning against any other assaultish squad in the game. Against 10 man assault marines we loose 5 orks before getting to swing even if we charged. 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds 2 dead. How the hell is the PK nob supposed to get another 3 kills just to tie, and possibly 4 so that we might win. Now we are taking an LD check on a 6 with a reroll. Fail that and we are most likely wiped out on the massacure check.

Actually that fight is a lot more even than you credit (if you charge).

10 assault marines vs 12 slugga boyz + pknob

sluggas shoot - 50% chance 1 casualty

charge

10 assault marines most likely casualties = 4 (40% chance of 5+, 38% of 3-)
9 assault marines most likely casualties = 4 (31% chance of 5+, 47% of 3-)

if 4 casualties:
7 choppa boyz most likely casualties = 2 (40% of 3)
1 pk nob most lilely casualties = 2 (35% of 3)

Following the most likely result provides a tie. with modest chances of gaining the win, either from the marines only killing 3, or you killing more. Thats not bad given the points difference.

Posted By Jayden63 on 11/05/2007 3:53 PM
Its the basic I2 that really rubs salt in my wounds. FC is ok, except when your limited on numbers. I.E. trukkers. As it is, no trukk boy mob has a chance of winning against any other assaultish squad in the game. Against 10 man assault marines we loose 5 orks before getting to swing even if we charged. 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds 2 dead. How the hell is the PK nob supposed to get another 3 kills just to tie, and possibly 4 so that we might win. Now we are taking an LD check on a 6 with a reroll. Fail that and we are most likely wiped out on the massacure check.

I'm really worried about this. I'm not sure it will be possible to bring enough of the boys. Softening up with shooting is a possibilty except that trukkers are supposed to work in enemy territory. Its not likely your going to get much shooting support save what they bring with them.

Now I know that trukkers with trukk are 170ish points and assault marines tend to be in the 250 range.  But what good is killing 100 points of marines then loosing 130 points of boys (on the turn you charged).  Something just doesn't seem right here.  If we could attack simo (like in the old dex) at least we had an easier chance of bring the combat to a draw.

That is the whole point of balancing the Trukk boy unit. I thought it was going to be an impossible task to make a KOS (Trukk mounted) army on equal footing with a (predominately) footslogging army but on first glance GW seems to have accomplished that goal, which is an amazing feat IMO.

In 3rd edition, KOS was just simply broken. Their ability to jump out of vehicles (even if their vehicle was blown up) and assault made the army an absolute monster.

4th edition turned the KOS army completely into a hit-or-miss beast. Either you got the first turn and were able to move your Trukks into good position to strike next turn (hiding behind terrain close to the enemy) or your Trukks got blown up and all your Orks got entangled and then killed in the following turn. Games tended to be slaughters for one side or the other.

This new codex gives Orks the ability to charge again if their vehicle gets blown up but to balance that fact they've made individual boys weaker (but cheaper) and made small mob sizes more vulnerable to morale checks.

So you can't go into games expecting a Trukkload of boys to peform like they used to in 3rd edition or even 4th edition if they made it into combat unscathed. Instead, you have to totally swamp enemy flanks with several Trukkboy mobs at once (preferebly backed up by some Stormboyz). Only through combined mob support will you be able to achieve the same success in combat you're used to.

But since the Boyz are cheaper, you should be able to get more Trukks and more Trukkboyz into your army to help you with this goal. And, you can safely drive your mobs right in front of a couple of enemy units knowing that even if they destroy your Trukk there's still a really good chance that you'll be able to charge and swamp them next turn.

That's the best thing about the Trukk assault in the new codex (IMO), you can reliably count on your Trukk boyz to reach combat if you play well (i.e. don't put full Trukks out in front of enough enemy units that one enemy unit can blow up the Trukk and another unit can follow up with shots on the disembarked unit).

In other words, it actually takes some planning and strategy to get Trukk assaults to work but if you know what you're doing you should have pretty good success.

 

So are the basic boys unit getting a resculpt? They looked the same to me, with the exception of a new weapon or two? That'd be cool to have them pretty much compatible with what I already own. Are there any pix of the new shokk attack gun around anywhere? I'd love to see it........

They're the same plastics but with more extras on the sprues and a different sprue layout or
something like that.

Looking at the codex and trying to come up with a nice theme list, I think I'll work on two angles. One being Blood Axes, which are way easy to figure out and put something together for.
The other end of the spectrum would be Snake Bites, I like the idea of a couple of loony Weird Boys as the HQ's and aside the core boys I'm trying to figure out what other choices might fit with this style of army. I don't have the older codex with the fluff on this clan, so I'm wondering if any of the more experienced vets might have some advice, what would work fluffwise for them and not?

Posted By sugarwookie on 11/05/2007 8:34 PM
So are the basic boys unit getting a resculpt? They looked the same to me, with the exception of a new weapon or two? That'd be cool to have them pretty much compatible with what I already own. Are there any pix of the new shokk attack gun around anywhere? I'd love to see it........

 

A painted pic of the SAG is on this Warseer page:

warseer.com/forums/40k-news-rumour-discussion/104202-ukgd-2007-new-ork-stuff-10.html

 

 

Fluffwise they're very lowtech, so you'd probably want to go with a footslogging horde, heavy with boyz. It all depends on how far you want to take things. For example, you could have Stormyboyz with Pterodactyls tied to their backs, use Boarboyz for bikes, and use Squiggoth models for Trukks.

So are there any rumors as to a release date yet?

January. Has been for some time now.