Hey everybody, I got my hands on the Ork Codex and just wanted to throw in my two cents. The codex is sort of a mixed-bag. Some things got vastly better, some things didn’t change much, and some things just make me go “WTF?”. The Ork codex follows the format of the other recent releases, with the unit descriptions in the front, points costs in the back, and rules scattered all over the place. I personally hate this new format because it makes it extremely time consuming to ever look anything up, and doesn’t really make sense with most 40K armies. Overall they also tried to emphasize the unpredictable nature of Orks, and included in many interesting new weapons and upgrades, which is very cool.

As for the general army rules, Orks have lost Choppas, Mobbing Up, The Power Of The Waaagh, and pretty much all the Gretchin abilities (besides mine clearance, but who cares). Now the entire army has furious charge, checking Mob Size works by allowing you to substitute in your unit size for your LD instead of taking a sequential “check size” test, and the new Waaagh power allow your entire army to FOF for one turn (besides the first), and on a 1 a model takes a wound. I have to say I’m sad to see choppas go, because it made the Orks a really unique army, but having furious charge instead is definitely an improvement. I’m kind of disappointed in the way the Mob Size rule works now, because some units are extremely vulnerable to fleeing the first time they get shot at (Deffkoptas, Bikes, Elites, etc).

Now, as for the codex itself:

HQ Characters
As with the other new codexes characters are now either regular HQ choices or are taken as upgrades for some specific units.

First up is Ghazghkhull. Most of his stats are pretty much the same, except that he now has a big shoota instead and lower LD. He lost most of his special abilities for his admantium skull, but instead now has +2A on a charge and is immune to instant death. A fair trade off in my opinion. His real power lies in the fact that he has a unique WAAAGH power that is really nasty. It replaces the armies usual WAAAGH, but give everyone an automatic 6” FOF, makes them fearless, and tons Ghaz’s save to invulnerable. He’s an expensive character, but I can definitely see him being useful in larger games.

Nazdreg is gone, but has been replaced by a Flash Git upgrade character. Personally I don’t really see the point of this guy. He’s pretty expensive, has a decent save, and a nasty gun, but with BS2 he won’t be hitting anything with it. He seems more “fun” than useful.

Boss Zagstruk on the other hand is frickin’ awesome! He only costs a few more points than before, but now makes his Storm Boy unit deep strike and allows them to assault when they do. Not only this, but Zagstruk counts as having a power fist that strikes at I order on the charge! Zagstruk has also gained the IG “summary execution” rule, which is strange but cool. Really nasty stuff.

Mad Doc Grotsnik is now a ton more points and isn’t much different from the previous codex, except for the fact that Doc’s Tools now give the entire unit FNP. He’s a pretty decent character for the cost and will definitely help orks stay alive in future games.

Boss Snikrot is OK. He does have an awesome ability which allows for his unit of Commandoes to come in from reserves off of any table edge, but unfortunately Commandoes aren’t that great so it’s kind of a waste. Other than that he now rerolls his to hit attacks and gives -1 LD in CC to the enemy. I personally don’t think I’ll ever take him since there are far better options.

Wazzdakka Gutzmek lost almost all of his special abilities, and instead is allowed to shoot after turbo boosting. He now has a S8 gun, which is cool, but give that he’s only BS2 it probably won’t make much of a difference. He’s also a ton more points, which is a shame.

Now, the new character, Old Zogwort is a really fun addition. He’s the warphead character, the new Ork psycher, and has all their abilities. In addition gets D6 attacks in CC that wound on 2+, but you don’t really want him in CC in the first place (6+ save). His real fun comes from the fact that he can now turn enemy characters into squigs! All you have to do is take a psychic test and roll higher than the opponent, and a character in 18” is now a squig controlled by the enemy. Really funny stuff.

HQ
I have to say I’m impressed with the new HQ selection.

You no longer have to take a Warboss in your army, but if you do a squad of Noz or Meganobz can be taken as troops. The Warboss stats are also much better (T5) and he has plenty of nice upgrades. It should be noted that no one in the army besides mega armored guys and the flash git character can have an armor save better than 4+, which is kind of weak for an HQ. Expect to see this guy in Mega Armor most of the time. He can also take a warbike, which is nice for recreating the Kult Of Speed armies, but unfortunately it doesn’t make bikes troops if you do. I guess you can always take trukk boyz though.

Next is the Big Mek. This guy also has a ton of ways of kitting him out and making a pretty effective model. Overall though I’d have to say the Shokk Attack Gun really stands out as an awesome choice. It’s a really nasty Ordinance weapon, that has all kinds of funny abilities if you roll doubles for the strength. Some are really awesome (2 6’s and everyone under the template is REMOVED FROM PLAY) and some are pretty horrible (he disappears, or he shoots himself into CC instead, LOL). The Shokk gun is a really fun addition to the orks and is pretty useful in most games, especially since he can't be picked out with shooting.

The last HQ choice is a Weirdboy/Warphead. This guy is pretty dirt cheap for his abilities, but isn’t really made to survive in CC. He gets a random psychic power each turn (warphead upgrades let you reroll this), but pretty much all of them are useful. The only one that is bad is a 1, in which case he gets hit with a pretty nasty blast marker. Other than that the psychic powers are two pretty nasty auto-hit shooting attacks, giving his unit +A, making the unit be removed and deep striked on the same turn, and the awesome one, which gives your army another WAAAGH. I should mention that his psychic tests ARE affected by Mob Size, so if you put him in a big unit expect your tests to pretty much always pass. All in all a really fun addition to the army.

It should also be noted that Painboyz are now upgrades for a few specific units in the army, and now give their unit FNP and the option for cybork bodies, which is much better in my opinion.

Elites
I’d have to say I was pretty disappointed by the selection for the Elite choices. Most of them are either overpriced or underpowered.

First off, Nobz and Mega Nobz are now their own squads. They have some pretty impressive stats, and Nobz have a wide array of good upgrades, but in the end both of these units will cost too much and probably never see CC. One of the main problems is that Nobz are now all LD7, and these units are fairly small, so if you shoot at them and kill anyone, they’ll probably run. Nobz can be given a bosspole (as can unit champion Nobz), which allow you to reroll the LD test and put a wound on a model in the unit, but for guys that cost upwards of 40 points each this is pretty crappy. You do have the option of taking a Painboy and giving the unit FNP and cybork bodies, but once again this would cost a ton and probably won’t be worth it in the end. I would have just like to have seen them make Nobz fearless or something, but oh well.

Next are two of the worst units in the entire Ork Codex, Burna Boyz and Tank Busta Boyz. Both units all come equipped standard with their respective weapons (burnas and rokkit launchers), but cost almost 3 times what a regular Ork Boy does. Not only this, but many of their rules are pretty crappy. Burnas are now flamers and power weapons in CC as before, but lost their 2D6 AP against vehicles, which really reduces their effectiveness. Burna boyz can also be given a Mek upgrade, but there isn’t much point to this. Tank Busta Boyz now can be given Squigbombs, which are OK, and 2 models can replace their rokkit launchers with Tank Hammers, making them S10 in CC. What really makes Tank Busta Boyz pure garbage is one of the worst written rules in the history of 40K, Glory Hogs. It states that if a vehicle is in LOS of the Tank Busta Boyz, they must attempt to shoot and assault the vehicle, regardless of range! This means that if there was a single lone sentinel 60” away, the tank busta boys must try to shoot it, be out of range, and then just repeat this over and over. What a truly stupid rule.

On the other hand Lootas are actually an interesting Elite choice. They come with D3 shot autocannons, which is pretty nice and can be given several Meks which can be upgraded with rokkit launchers, big shootas, and kustom mega blastas. I really like the feel and look of these guys, carrying cobbled together pieces of garbage from other armies and shooting the crap out of stuff, and they add an nice long range firepower option to the Ork army. Unfortunately they only have BS2, so they may not hit much, but what can you do. I’m kind of surprised these guys weren’t just given 4+ armor saves and put in heavy section instead of Falsh Gitz (see the heavy section).

The final Elite choice is commandoes, which haven’t really changed at all. I didn’t ever see anyone take them before, and I doubt I’ll see anyone take them now, especially given the other options you have for mobility (namely Storm Boyz).

Troops
Now, the troop section is extremely sparse, and really has one clear and distinct choice, Ork Boyz.
Ork Boyz are now SO much better it’s not even funny. They're much cheaper and with their WAAAGH FOF and furious charge are going to be pretty nasty to go up against. They no longer have the option for burnas, which is a shame, but now have several other useful upgrades. They can be given Stikk Bombz for only a point, can trade out their CC weapons for shootas, which are now shorter range assault weapons, and can be given a trukk upgrade if the unit is 12 models or under. Expect to see MASSIVE AMOUNTS of Boyz on the table in the future!

The Trukks have also gotten much better than the previous “entanglement-wagons”. They carry more guys, have more useful upgrades, and best of all if you get a vehicle destroyed result the worst thing that can happen is the trukk careens off and you take S3 hits and a pinning test, but are otherwise fine. I kind of wish they would have gotten rid of the whole emergency disembarking thing all together, but it’s nice to see they did something to prevent your trukk boyz from being sitting ducks all the time. Trukks also have a ton of new interesting upgrades which are more expensive than before, but are definitely more useful.

The final (second) troop choice are Gretchin mobz. I can’t express how disappointed I am with these guys. They used to be one of the best units in the Ork codex, not only in gameplay, but in adding to the feel of the army. Now, they’ve lost all their Grot abilities besides mine clearance (who cares) and must take a Herder for every 10 Gretchin, which can only be upgraded with a squighound that eats gretchin to get them back in line and an upgraded grot prodder that is pretty useless. Losing the ability to buy rokkit launchers is a huge blow, and I can’t imagine why you’d EVER take Gretchin now, especially since Ork Boyz are only double the cost and vastly better in every way. Even stranger is that Gretchin are BS3, which doesn’t make much sense and would have bee much more useful with Lootas or something. Very sad.

Fast Attack
Really, the Fast Attack section is extremely uneven. Storm Boyz are such a clear and vastly better choice than everything, I don’t know why you’d take anything else.

Storm Boyz are now so awesome it’s amazing. They’re much cheaper than before, didn’t really lose anything, and best of all get to FOF without actually having to do it in the shooting phase. Instead they now simply add D6” to their jump pack movement, and if you get a 1 a guy dies. These guys are now so fast, and with furious charge, so deadly it’s not even funny. Expect to see tons of these as well in future games!

Warbuggies/Wartrakks haven’t really changed much from the last codex, which is a shame. They can’t take Mega Blasters any more, but can be upgraded to Wartrakks to reroll dangerous terrain tests. Overall these weren’t worth it before and aren’t worth it now.

Warbikes are now cheaper, have their armor save and dust cloud save improved to 4+ and have 2 CCW, but lost their psycho blastas (now just have 18” TL big shootas) and the dust cloud no longer applies to models behind them, which doesn’t really make sense. They are one of the better fast attack choices, but given their small squad size, low LD, and high cost aren’t really much competition compared to Storm Boyz.

The final fast attack choice is Deffkoptaz. I’m happy to see these models added to the Ork army from the Kult Of Speed list, because they also really add to the ramshackle feel of the Orks, but they’re not very useful units. Basically they’re 2 wound, hit and run, scouting jetbikes with TL big shootas that can only come max units of 5, which mean they’ll run like hell all the time. They can be upgraded to have power fists and one-shot bombs, but given how expensive they already are they should probably just be avoided unless you take them as a “fun unit”.

Heavy Support
I was prettysurprised by the heavy support section as well. Some things are pretty good, and other things really should have been improved upon.

First, Battlewagons are now MUCH more useful than before. They’re front armor 14, can be turned into closed-topped vehicles, and have a huge variety of upgrades. They can be given a ordinance gun, but it reduces the transport capacity to 12, a big gun, and up to 4 heavy weapons. This thing has all sorts of possibilities for customizing models. The Death Roller option is also really nice (D6 S10 hits when you tank shock, and double that if they death or glory you'). Battlewagons are definitely a viable option now, they would have been better if they had side armor 13 instead of 12, but they’re pretty cheap for what they do.

Dreadnoughts aren’t really much better than before. Some weapons are cheaper, others are more expensive, and they now have the option to have 2 extra CC weapons (giving them 6 attacks on a charge!). Unfortunately, just as they were before, they’re foot slogging dreadnoughts with armor 12, so they probably won’t see CC against most armies.

Killa Kans are also cheaper as a base cost, but most of their weapons are now more expensive. They have the option for a Grotzooka, which isn’t that great. Really they’re not a whole lot better than before, so if you liked them in the old codex you'll like them now.

Big Gunz on the other hand have gotten MUCH worse. Kannons are pretty much the same except the blast is now S4, Lobbas are exactly the same, and Zzap guns have much nastier stats (longer ranger), and if you roll over 10 on the 2D6 a grot is killed but the shot still is used at S10, and they inflict automatic shaken results. The problem, however is, that Zzap guns now have to roll to hit! I was totally shocked when I saw this, especially since they’re already random S guns manned by Gretchin. Most of the Big Gunz have also gotten cheaper (besides Zzap guns), and you now have the option to buy ammo runts for them, but the Mek option is gone. Even stranger is that the Herder in charge of the Gretchin can’t buy a squighound. Although Big Gunz are cheap, they’re either so random or have such bad stats they’re probably not worth taking.

Flash Gitz have been added to the heavy section as well, but I can’t really understand why. They come with 24” S5 APD6 Assault 1 guns (AP rolled before picking a target), which can be made Assault 2, S6, or -1AP for 5 points. They also come with Gitfinders, which are the same as targeters, and have the option for ammo runts and Painboyz. Unfortunately Flash Gitz are extremely expensive for what they do, even more expensive with upgrades, only come in squads of 10 max, only have BS2, and guns that are unpredictable and really pretty useless. I can’t imagine what they were thinking putting these guys as heavy choices, they clearly should be about 10-15 points cheaper and swap places with Lootas (which should also have better armor saves). Definitely a unit I’ll avoid in the future.

The final heavy support choice is a Looted Wagon, which is sort of a lame-ass replacement for looted tanks. Standard it is dirt cheap and is a pretty much an open-topped looted rhino and still has the “don’t press that” rule, but you now have to drive forward as much as possible, which kind of sucks. It can be given a battle cannon, but keep in mind it only has the armor of a rhino, so won’t be around very long if you do. There are also a slew of other upgrades it can take, but to be honest you’ll probably just want to keep it cheap and hope to get a turn or two of shooting with the battle cannon. It is a pretty cheap option, and probably will be taken in most games, but given its bad armor really is a huge step down from a looted tank.

All in all I’m happy to see that Orks have been redone and are now a viable army, but as with the other new codexes, it strikes me that there are those units that are just obvious choices to take, and then there are those units that don’t really have much of a point. I do have to say that the Ork codex is a HUGE improvement over the pile of crap Chaos Marines book, but if you want to play them competitively you’ll really be limited in your options. Also, they won't really give much of a challenge to the current overpowered armies Tyranids, Eldar, and Tau. Expect to see MASSIVE amounts of Ork Boyz, Storm Boyz, Shokk Attack Guns, and cheap-o looted wagons with battle cannons in the near future ;-)

Geeze... talk about stealing someone else's thunder...

BYE

Once you start seeing 20-45 Lootas and 40-60 Stormboyz in every single Ork army the new book will start looking less and less like a success. More powerful, but just like Eldar and Tyranids, so unflexible that it can't avoid falling into the pigeon hole of doom. Be quick and maybe you can name the new Ork pattern. How do you deal with Storm Orks?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/31/2007 4:55 PM
Geeze... talk about stealing someone else's thunder...

BYE

  He didn't steal jack.  His review was barely readable.  The True Believers will wait for the Real Thing.  After your Chaos Codex review, you can bet I'm a True Believer!

I wasn't trying to Review every single aspect of the ork codex, just give my opinions on a few things. Feel free to read the book yourself and disagree, but I doubt you will on most points.

Yeah, every time GW releases a codex it gets more and more shameless about nerfing the stuff thats good and jacking up the crappy stuff from before.

No one had any shoota boyz, storm boyz, or battle wagons before and now they are going to be everywhere.  Still, I like the overall change and feel that the change to 30 strong mobs of boyz that can cross the table quickly behind a wall of Stormboyz that can fly forward will be very orky and will really do wonders for shaking up the game.  I feel like there are enough choices with appeal (shokk attack gun, painboyz, weirdboyz, and a battlewagon full of nobz) that an ork player can design a competitive list that isn't totally spam, like Eldar or Nids.  Granted over time some builds will come to the fore as the meanest overall, but that doesn't mean that every single player will be using them.

Dakkaites are tourney players, and on the bright side at least the orks will be a spoiler army that can make all those zilla nid players rethink things a bit.  If players can't build their armies around how many plasma guns can be stuffed into it, then that opens the door for armies like IG, Dark Eldar, and Necrons.  Some armies, like drop pod marines, would be really hard pressed to do much of anything against orks unless they were kitted out specially for them, which waters down the list.  I hope that this leads to some changes in the overall metagame.

When you name a real counter to 60 Stormboyz moving 13"-18" in the first turn and assaulting 20"-30" in the second turn (they move 33"-48" in TWO turns) I'll admit that I really like the new Orks.

Posted By Samwise158 on 10/31/2007 5:50 PM
Yeah, every time GW releases a codex it gets more and more shameless about nerfing the stuff thats good and jacking up the crappy stuff from before.

No one had any shoota boyz, storm boyz, or battle wagons before and now they are going to be everywhere.  Still, I like the overall change and feel that the change to 30 strong mobs of boyz that can cross the table quickly behind a wall of Stormboyz that can fly forward will be very orky and will really do wonders for shaking up the game.  I feel like there are enough choices with appeal (shokk attack gun, painboyz, weirdboyz, and a battlewagon full of nobz) that an ork player can design a competitive list that isn't totally spam, like Eldar or Nids.  Granted over time some builds will come to the fore as the meanest overall, but that doesn't mean that every single player will be using them.

Dakkaites are tourney players, and on the bright side at least the orks will be a spoiler army that can make all those zilla nid players rethink things a bit.  If players can't build their armies around how many plasma guns can be stuffed into it, then that opens the door for armies like IG, Dark Eldar, and Necrons.  Some armies, like drop pod marines, would be really hard pressed to do much of anything against orks unless they were kitted out specially for them, which waters down the list.  I hope that this leads to some changes in the overall metagame.

They should rename the shokk attak gun to carnifex killa, or synapse smasha

I am a nid player, and I approve of this new ork book.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 5:55 PM
When you name a real counter to 60 Stormboyz moving 13"-18" in the first turn and assaulting 20"-30" in the second turn (they move 33"-48" in TWO turns) I'll admit that I really like the new Orks.

Sure...Follow the rules   Stormboys can't waagh...

flamers? lash? templates? your own counterassault?

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 5:55 PM
When you name a real counter to 60 Stormboyz moving 13"-18" in the first turn and assaulting 20"-30" in the second turn (they move 33"-48" in TWO turns) I'll admit that I really like the new Orks.

Again: Only infantry benefit from the extra movement provided by the Waaagh!

Several units (Stormboyz, Slavers in Grot units and DeffKoptas for example) are all listed as having the Waaagh! special rule even though they do not actually gain any benefit from it.

 

Stormboyz aren't even listed as having it.

They can't Waagh, but they're still going to be charging on turn 2, at a minimum hitting the 44" mark with the lowest rolls for both turns movement.

Great new conversion is going to be all those slugga boyz people used to run with makeshift jump packs on em! I'm thinking one unit with Assault Marine Packs, the other maybe with Warp Spider jump generators?

Posted By skyth on 10/31/2007 6:22 PM
Stormboyz aren't even listed as having it.

Interesting. Stormboyz & Deffkoptas are listed as having the Waaagh in their fluff/special rule page but not in their army list entry.

 

I'd really like to know how you came up with that number. Since they apparently can't Waaagh, the minimum reach would be 12+1" on the first turn, 12+1" on the second turn, plus a six inch assault, making a grand total of 32 inches, not 44". So, over two turns the Stormboyz can assault a unit that is 32"-42" away. It's still fast enough to make them a no-brainer but them being unable to Waaagh makes some sense atleast.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 6:37 PM

They can't Waagh, but they're still going to be charging on turn 2, at a minimum hitting the 44" mark with the lowest rolls for both turns movement.

I'd really like to know how you came up with that number. Since they apparently can't Waaagh, the minimum reach would be 12+1" on the first turn, 12+1" on the second turn, plus a six inch assault, making a grand total of 32 inches, not 44". So, over two turns the Stormboyz can assault a unit that is 32"-42" away. It's still fast enough to make them a no-brainer but them being unable to Waaagh makes some sense atleast.

44" Mark on the table, assuming they started on the 12" line, their minimum moves put them there.

It won't always be at that line, but basically on turn 2, with 3 mobz of 20, you should be able to charge nearly any unit on the board, except for some cases of really bad rolling.  I don't see enemy units doing nothing but sit within the 6" mark of their table edge.

remember, it is also a work in progress we have. It's not the final product. We can't be certain anything will be that way in finality.

Though, the way GW product usually goes, it will make it through the proof process.

Are we sure it's a work in progress? The Chaos Marines and Eldar codexes were leaked under similar circumstances and both books were identical to the leaked versions. I highly doubt anything will be changed at this point in the book, although I'd love to see Lootas and Flash Gits switched around (and their armor saves swapped).

I do like the possible changes to the meta game. No real big deal for my Chaos army because I rely on no plasma's at all and pack 39 bolters into 1750. But the effect on my army has little to do with the conversation in general.

It's just nice to see things get shaken up a bit. People being forced to tailor their lists against greenskins and MEQ's is awesome.

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/31/2007 5:42 PM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/31/2007 4:55 PM
Geeze... talk about stealing someone else's thunder...

BYE

  He didn't steal jack.  His review was barely readable.  The True Believers will wait for the Real Thing.  After your Chaos Codex review, you can bet I'm a True Believer!

Exactly, as soon as he said that boss snikrot is only "O.K." I was tempted to stop reading it.

...yea sure, an 18" charge from any board edge with 15 slugga/choppa/stikkbomb boys that dont worry too much about terrain is only O.K.

By the way, you forgot to mention that Shoota Nobs CANNOT get powerklaws. 

Sounds to me that someone needs to play more games.

Bring on the reveiw H.B.M.C.  We're still waiting for one.

First off, where does it say shoota nobs can't have power klaws? The codex is badly written and vague in this regard, but there is no rule that says they can't have them, and I'd fight with anyone that thinks it makes sense that they can't. It's just another example of GW's crappy writing making more problems.

Second, Snikrott is just OK. Sure, you get to come in on any board edge, but you already have to have a Commando unit, which aren't that great (3 points more for an Ork boy that has MTC only, and they lose their infiltrate with Snikrott's reserve ability). Snikrott himself is sort of worthless, he's just a guy with a few attacks that reroll to hit. He doesn't have a power claw, so he can't pick off vehicles, and 2 rokkit launchers is hardly a guaranteed kill against most vehicles, especially with Orks BS. Not only this, but once they show up (which is random and could be so late in the game it doesn't matter) they're just another foot slogging unit of guys, where, on the other hand Storm Boyz can pretty much guarantee to get in CC by turn 2, can take a power klaw, and once they get done with their CC they're still highly mobile.

I've played tons of games with every army out there, and plan on using the new Orks this weekend. If you don't like my review or my opinions on things fine, but you can make a valid point without having to make comments that have nothing to do with my post.

There were some minor differences from the eldar pdf to the released product.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 5:55 PM
When you name a real counter to 60 Stormboyz moving 13"-18" in the first turn and assaulting 20"-30" in the second turn (they move 33"-48" in TWO turns) I'll admit that I really like the new Orks.

Well considering if they take 2 squads of 30 with 2 nobz with heavy armor and power clawz thats a lot of points exactly there should be alot of ways.  Your not going to do it with a lasplas marine or dakkafex army but those are very specialised armies that are only so popular because of the tourny metagame.  [For the same amount of] points you can field a hell of a lot of anti troop.  Some leman Russ' backed up by chimera fire would kill both squads quite quickly.  Scatter lasers would mow them down in droves.  Regular fire warriors with their pew pew little lasers would kill these easilly.  All of those units that are bad at killing MeQ's but are great at killing hordes all of a sudden would have a use if that army became prevalent.

You can get 8 predators with an autocannon and 2 side sponson heavy bolters for he same price as the stormboyz.  Really, it shouldn't be that hard to kill some orcs.  You just won't do it with cookie cutter anti MeQ.

 

Edit:  Please do not post points totals for the leaked Ork army list. --yakface

 

The problem with taking anti-meq from a tournament army is that a solid core of gamers are simply going to bring Meqs regardless. If orks actually become dominant enough, and common enough to affect the metagame, then marines are going to end up the big winners, because armies will shift away from simply killing marines.

What seems more likely is that a few old skool Ork players, plus a handful of new converts, will make Orks the new Dark Eldar: the really good army that nobody is prepared for, but has enough natural foils to prevent it from winning a five round tourney.

 

Stop posting points values relating to the leaked Ork PDF. You have been warned.

 

--yakface

 

 

Okay, so let me get this straight, there are already multiple parts of the Codex that would require FAQ/clarification (if GW were inclined to do them)? I suppose you could make a case for them wanting to stop you taking Power Klaws in Shoota Mobs, but a unit being forced to fire upon a target that's out of range? Of course, the way the shooting rules are laid out, you don't measure range until you choose a target, but you shouldn't be able to neutralize an expensive antitank unit merely by parking your Rhino 2" out of their range.

This does not impress me much, not when they could have easily laid out the rule as "If there are enemy vehicles within X" and within LOS in the beginning of the shooting phase, the mob is forced to fire upon the closest such vehicle". It'd still mean the choice would be made for you, but at least it'd be a tradeoff, not a sacrifice.

Yeah, there are definitely some pretty vague rules the way the Ork codex is now. I can only hope that GW uses people's reactions to this book to correct the final product, but I doubt it. The Tank Busta Boyz Glory Hog rule was extremely badly written and is open to all sorts of abuse and makes them very unusable as they are now.

Which is a shame because there's nothing Orkier than swinging a hammer made of a rocket.

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 10/31/2007 11:39 PM
Which is a shame because there's nothing Orkier than swinging a hammer made of a rocket.

My thoughts exactly! Or for using a Squig loaded up with explosives to chase after tanks ;-)

Wait, stormboyz are good? since when?
The more you take the more they die. I fail to see how Stormboyz beat out ork biker units any day of the week. Even Deffkoptas are better at first turn charging and killing than stormboyz are.

though I will say for certain that 45 lootas is a scary, scary sight. i dont care if they hit on 5's. an average of 90 shots a turn says somethings gonna get through. and flash gits are fantastic as well. A pure dakka ork army can be run.

Lootas have their place, but Flash Gits are pure rubbish. A unit of guys that cost 5 times what a Ork Boy does, has a one or two shot S5 gun with a random AP,  takes up a heavy slot (WTF?), and only hits on 5's? Sorry, I think I'll pass.

Yeah, Storm Boyz can die pretty easily, but they're now the fastest damn non-vehicle unit in the game, which is nice for a CC unit. Not to mention that they're also dirt cheap. I don't know what isn't to like about these guys. Sure bikes have a better save, but are WAY more expensive and will run like hell once you kill just a few bikes. Think I'll pass on those.

Posted By uatu13 on 10/31/2007 9:16 PM

Second, Snikrott is just OK. Sure, you get to come in on any board edge, but you already have to have a Commando unit, which aren't that great (3 points more for an Ork boy that has MTC only, and they lose their infiltrate with Snikrott's reserve ability). Snikrott himself is sort of worthless, he's just a guy with a few attacks that reroll to hit. He doesn't have a power claw, so he can't pick off vehicles, and 2 rokkit launchers is hardly a guaranteed kill against most vehicles, especially with Orks BS. Not only this, but once they show up (which is random and could be so late in the game it doesn't matter) they're just another foot slogging unit of guys, where, on the other hand Storm Boyz can pretty much guarantee to get in CC by turn 2, can take a power klaw, and once they get done with their CC they're still highly mobile.

You're missing the point.

60 HtH attacks that you dont even have to think about how they are going to get there.  Its totally disruptive to tau gunlines...even mech if they get out of their vehicles with a fish tactic, to guard gunlines,  you could charge sentinals or warwalkers to tie them up from shooting masses of advancing orks, dev marines are stopped in thier tracks, rear charges on tanks that MUST die....how is this unit not great?  I cant think of an army that is going to be unconcerned about 15 orks charging them from the rear.  Even Necrons, you wouldnt hurt many, but you could possibly stop MULTIPLE units from firing for a turn....or more if you're lucky.  This gives you time to get your powerclaws up before the necrons gauss the hell out of you with two full immortal squads.  Now they're stuck in hth if you do the assault correctly to minimise casualties on your side.

If someone has a static shooting army, this unit can spread its 15 across the enemy deployment zone and engage MULTIPLE units with a good chance of still winning the massive combat.  This unit would WIN THE GAME FOR YOU WITH A MASSACRE and the rest of your army is drinking beer in your deployment zone if your enemy is an infantry based guard army. Space wolf scouts have the same ability, but can only get units of 5, and they are TERRIBLY disruptive to enemy plans.  Just because a unit doenst have a Nob with a Power Klaw in it doesnt mean its "Just O.K."  This unit helps the rest of your footsloggers engage in hand to hand combat unscathed.  The unit is totally awesome, perhaps not for its killing ability, but its tactical value is obvious....and HUGE.

I agree with Deadshane.

To have Snikrott's unit rampaging through your army seems like a bad thing.

A proper Mech Tau army (that is, with a Devilfish or two) is able to build a skimmer castle that houses their entire army and prevents those inside from getting charged. It'd be pretty boring having to kill any tank-killers while shooting at all the poor orks who can't take down a skimmer, but you can still move your entire army over by loading up your firewarriors and scooting jet infantry and tanks 12". If you have 11 suits and no broadsides, 4-5 skimmers can easily hide that inside a circle.

Like I said before, it does sound like the Ork codex can be a very nice metagame spoiling army, with the Mech Tau keeping it in check. Only problem is that it requires gamers to start Ork armies.

Wait a sec, how would the skimmer castle work?

Skimmers block movement, but not LoS, right?

This is why Lootas are so important. Building a Skimmer Castle means your tanks are in LOS. And once the tanks are in LOS they're going to eat shots from Loota Mobz 48" away in cover. Those tanks will go down.

The Tankbustas rule is not badly written as in unclear. They obviously intended that the unit be vulnerable to wasting their round if the enemy tanks are far away, the clause "Regardless of range" is a dead giveaway.

As for crippling their effectiveness....Eh. I don't think they are particularly crippled.

These are the criteria that cause them to lose their attacks:

1. Vehicle in LOS
2. Vehicle not within 30 inches
3. Vehicle not able to be obscured by friendly orky vehicle
4. Tankbustas can't move into a position where they can't see the Vehicle
5. Not a Waaargh round

I'm much more concerned about the Fire Magnet status of a unit that is ALL ROKKITS. Seems like they'll get smoked by enemy fire, but I imagine that their purpose, in the larger scheme of things, is to help your killy boys get stuck in.

i was thinking the same thing, if you block LOS to enemy tanks with terrain or your own vehicles it's not that bad, but yes poorly written rule none the less.

on the whole shoota nob thing, technically you can buy all the upgrades for the nob before you make the mob shootas. In that way he has no choppa and slugga to "trade in" for the shoota.

anyone missing rokkits and big shootas on their nobs yet?

I am VERY much missing not being able to take big shoots and rokkits on my nob. Very much. I was planning a shooty bad moon force, and with that bit gone so goes some of the character. I cannot even get kustom upgrades for the nobs shoota like we used to, like Shootier.

I don't see so much where the issue is with this Shoota Nob not being able to have a klaw. You upgrade to a nob, then a klaw is given to him. The entire mob then changes in thie sluggas and choppas for shootas. The nob doesn't have a choppa, so he doesn't trade anything in except his slugga. There's no "you can't" or "may only if". The ENTIRE mob that has choppas is turning them in. The nob just doesn't happen to have a choppa. It's not game breaking, and I am certain my friends will allow it, so there's no problem for me. Tournaments may be iffy, but only a little.

There's nothing in the entry to say that you can't spend your points to buy the character first and make your changes, then take options for the boyz. There just isn't. It's all listed in the Options section on page 95. The list is just trying to keep all the ranged weapons in the mob the same type.

I'm also thinking that they may have simply copied the same nob language in every entry, and simply never altered the boyz nob to always allow a choppa/slugga.

for slavers i wish they could have at least have shootas! I have two recently converted slavers with big shootas...

Question for those of you who've seen the leaked PDF:

Are pinning checks affected by mob size, or just morale checks?

Over 11 models, they're fearless. Fearless models are immune to pinning if I recall correctly. Anything less than 11 models just uses the model count as it's LD if it wants to.

Any leadersgip based check.

Posted By Iorek on 11/01/2007 10:20 AM
Question for those of you who've seen the leaked PDF:

Are pinning checks affected by mob size, or just morale checks?

The Mob Rule!, uh, rule sez 'Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule.'. I've been out of the game for a while (waiting on this codex and playing WoW) but it would appear that all Leadership checks may be affected by this rule, including those for Pinning.

My knee jerk reaction to Mob Rule is always "Guh," as it's gonna be frustrating (to near impossible for my chaos boys) to have to kill 19 orks from a 30-boy mob before I have even a tiny hope of panicing the squad off ...

But then I think about it and find it pretty fluffy, and not too overpowering given that most orky mobs - particularly specialists - are going to be waaaay less than 30 strong. While it's nice to have 10 Ld10 lootas or such, kill enough to force a panic check and the mobs at Ld7 (less?) anyway. The rule mostly helps big slugga boy mobs hit the enemy in turn 2, so more power to them I guess

- Salvage

Actually Nobz can still have bigshootas and rokkits in some mobs.
Like the ever talked about boyz entry. One Ork trades in his slugga or shoota for a big shoota or rokkit. Then you upgrade said boy to a nob, and his choppa can be replaced by a PK or BC. There is no language at all limiting this as far as I can see.

11 or Higher becomes fearless makes a lot of sense, as 10 would be the highest Ld they could have from mob size and limited by the characteristic.

I don't think the tankbustas rule is poorly written at all, regardless of range makes you forfeit any other actions as you attempt to do these things even if not possible. It's like frenzied troops, you have to learn to control them as much as you can.

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 11:28 AM11 or Higher becomes fearless makes a lot of sense, as 10 would be the highest Ld they could have from mob size and limited by the characteristic.

I am curious how this will work for Psychic tests tho.

Again, he gets Ld 10 from Mob Rule. He is going to be hard to stop when around a big mob of boyz, with even psychic hood only being effective 50% of the time. It is an easy way to represent the fluff that the more boyz around, the more powerful the weirdboy is.

I think flash gitz are a little bit better than what people are giving them credit for. They are very expensive, and I can't see using them in most normal size games, but kitted out they are very nasty.

They won't waste shots ever for being out of range, they are high str low ap killers that can get FNP. The blasta gets hot rule will have little effect on them as they would get two 4+ saves, and they all have nob stats with 2 W, and can even get an inv save! They are great at shooty, and not even all that bad in CC. Not a horrible unit, just not efficient in small games, and in a very competitive heavy slot.

Honestly, I don't see the Gitz being efficient at any points level. The bigger the game gets, the more points you can afford to waste, sure, but your enemy will be able to direct a correspondingly greater amount of firepower at them. Give them the Painboy and blastas like you said and you're looking at enough points to buy 1-2 mobs of normal boyz, or another squad of Lootas or Stormboyz. When would you ever rather have the Gitz?

Yeah I think Gitz are a bit too overpriced considering how specialised they are, and the low BS. I'd run them in combat patrol, for the laugh and because Gitz are fun, but I think they would be dissapointing in a full on game. I mean, you are looking at a VERY pricey unit that can be almost wiped out in a single battlecannon shot.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/01/2007 5:38 AM

Posted By uatu13 on 10/31/2007 9:16 PM

Second, Snikrott is just OK. Sure, you get to come in on any board edge, but you already have to have a Commando unit, which aren't that great (3 points more for an Ork boy that has MTC only, and they lose their infiltrate with Snikrott's reserve ability). Snikrott himself is sort of worthless, he's just a guy with a few attacks that reroll to hit. He doesn't have a power claw, so he can't pick off vehicles, and 2 rokkit launchers is hardly a guaranteed kill against most vehicles, especially with Orks BS. Not only this, but once they show up (which is random and could be so late in the game it doesn't matter) they're just another foot slogging unit of guys, where, on the other hand Storm Boyz can pretty much guarantee to get in CC by turn 2, can take a power klaw, and once they get done with their CC they're still highly mobile.

You're missing the point.

60 HtH attacks that you dont even have to think about how they are going to get there.  Its totally disruptive to tau gunlines...even mech if they get out of their vehicles with a fish tactic, to guard gunlines,  you could charge sentinals or warwalkers to tie them up from shooting masses of advancing orks, dev marines are stopped in thier tracks, rear charges on tanks that MUST die....how is this unit not great?  I cant think of an army that is going to be unconcerned about 15 orks charging them from the rear.  Even Necrons, you wouldnt hurt many, but you could possibly stop MULTIPLE units from firing for a turn....or more if you're lucky.  This gives you time to get your powerclaws up before the necrons gauss the hell out of you with two full immortal squads.  Now they're stuck in hth if you do the assault correctly to minimise casualties on your side.

If someone has a static shooting army, this unit can spread its 15 across the enemy deployment zone and engage MULTIPLE units with a good chance of still winning the massive combat.  This unit would WIN THE GAME FOR YOU WITH A MASSACRE and the rest of your army is drinking beer in your deployment zone if your enemy is an infantry based guard army. Space wolf scouts have the same ability, but can only get units of 5, and they are TERRIBLY disruptive to enemy plans.  Just because a unit doenst have a Nob with a Power Klaw in it doesnt mean its "Just O.K."  This unit helps the rest of your footsloggers engage in hand to hand combat unscathed.  The unit is totally awesome, perhaps not for its killing ability, but its tactical value is obvious....and HUGE.

I get your point, and I can see that he'd be devastating for the right game, but you have to realize I'm talking about the army in general, not tailor making a list for a specific opponent. The unit you're talking about costs over 250 points, which is pretty spendy for only foot-slogging orks, and is really more of a "trick unit' than one that can dependably be used in every game. Yeah, SW scouts are completely awesome, but part of that fact comes form them being a tiny, dirt cheap unit loaded up with power weapons, meltas, and plasma showing up behind a vehicle or static army. However, I've had multiple games using SW scouts where they either never came in because of poor reserve rolls, or came in against an army that it didn't matter with (such as a fast moving CC 'Nids).

Snikrot's reserve ability is awesome, but the character and his stats are less than impressive. I just think there are far better units in the new codex for the points costs that would make a much more flexible and general list. I do see how Snikrot could be use to devastating effects though.

I have enough boyz at it is on the table, and another 5 man squad of drawing fire allows my other stuff to get stuck in. With the new points cost of boyz I need more things taking up points

I am using a small squad in apoc this weekend, we will see how they perform.
I would still much rather have an expensive bike mounted nobz mob with painboy... but it is something different.

I think it's cool if you're using Gits by the way, don't get me wrong. I just reckon they're a bit crappy in terms of effectiveness.

Yeah, those Flash Gitz are just never going to be worth their points. A fully upgraded unit costs close to 500 points!!! And, even if you do jack them all up with all the upgrades, they still only get 20 shots, most of which will miss, and a random AP. So, if if you're lucky enough to survive getting into range against terminators or something, you'll probably just roll a 4 on the AP and it won't matter. I really don't understand why these guys take up a heavy slot and cost as much as they do while Lootas, which are pretty much ork's version of marine devastators, are now elites and are relatively cheap for what they do.

I also think that Tank Busta Boyz rule is absolutely terribly written. I could see that if a vehicle is IN RANGE they have to try to shoot at or assault it, but having to target things that are out of range is just plain stupid. Not to mention they're uber-expensive juicy targets that all have rokkit launchers (no ablative wounds). What player would be stupid enough to let these squads EVER get anywhere close to his vehicles? Yeah, you can use another ork vehicle to shield these guys from the enemy vehicle they can't shoot, but then they're probably not shooting much anything else, and a unit that costs this much can't spend turns just sitting around doing nothing.

I think it's pretty obvious that the two turds of this new codex are Flash Gitz and Tank Busta Boyz ;-)

Tankbustas could be useful in a battlewagon as long as the Boomsquigs don't get overexcited.
That's potentially a lot of mobile, heavily armoured rokkits coming at your armour. On the other hand, it's also bloody expensive, and useless if your foe is not bringing a lot of heavy armour.Still, it's a way to make them work, and I absolutely love the new tankbusta models so...

and with both lootas and tankbustas on the board, any of the recent mech armies are going to have a problem.

Tankbustas never have to worry when facing nids....

It's a funny day when a 15 pt model is expensive....
In the old dex I used 5 tankbustas including a nob coming in for a total of 95 pts for 4 rokkits. Now I lose tankhuntas, but my 5 man unit only comes out to 72pts base for more rokkits. I loose the wound shield, but I get more rokkits. Seems an even trade..

Toreador, what are you looking at that lets Nobz get rokkits or big shootas? Is there a more updated codex that is out there that I have not seen? or did I miss it? It's certainly not an option in the list I see before me. I didn't see them as options in other selections either.

Maybe he's referring to combi-weapons or something?

I don't consider a 15 point model to be expensive, but it depends on what it is of course. I'd be fine with Tank Busta Boyz being 15 points if they lost that Glory Hogs rule, or keep the rule and make them WAY cheaper. I don't know, I'm just not ever impressed with heavy weapon Ork units that are spendy, they just die too quickly and can't hit anything most of the time. If I'm going to put that many points into a unit I want it to do something, you know? At least Lootas get so many shots they'll most likely be able to at least glance everything but 14 armor, and they cost the same points, have much longer range, and aren't crippled by that crappy Glory Hogs rule.

okay, it goes by the flow guys.

Options
you may exchange a boyz slugga or shoota for a big shoota or rokkit.
You can also upgrade a boy to a nob. It does not say that it can't be the boy you earlier upgraded to a rokkit or big shoota. I have found no where in the version I have that would not allow me to do this. It doesn't give you an extra weapon though. All it lets you do is keep the cool conversion you had, or put it on a moderately more survivable model. You can therefore get a nob in a boyz mob with a Big Shoota or Rokkit and a Power Klaw.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Makes sense to me now. I think it would make sense from a fluff point of view, especially in a Bad Moon mob, for the Nob to ahve the bigga gun, but from a melee standpoint in a slugga mob it wouldn't be such a hot idea... The number of special weapons stays the same, is all, so there's no way to get a 3rd special in a 20 strong mob. Thanks for walking me through that.

The only thing that makes me sad is that I can't now use my recently converted and painted new Kommando nob with PK and Rokkit. It's the only one I really care about, and it specifies either or. Sigh.

Yeah, I feel your pain. I have to uncovert my warboss with choppa and power klaw now. And I don't relish the idea much...

The Glory Hogs rule is horribly written, because it is extremely easy to get around.  So your tankbustas want to shoot at a space marine squad but there is a vehicle within LOS but clearly out of range?  "...must always attempt to shoot and/or assault an enemy vehicle..."  Ok, just choose the assault requirement, it says must attempt to shoot OR assault.  So shoot at the marine squad, and then attempt to assault the vehicle, which you can't because it is not a valid target as you didn't shoot at it.  Sounds easy to me, but maybe Flavius can figure it out exactly.

BTW, lootas FTW as the new falcon-killing experts.  I figure a full squad of 15 could down an Eldar skimmer each turn (30 shots, 10 hits, 3 glancing hits, 1 immobilized or destroyed roll).  Your opponent is going to be so worried about all the orks heading his way that 45 models with autocannons positioned 4 feet away are probably never going to be shot at.

Posted By Oaka on 11/01/2007 4:20 PM

The Glory Hogs rule is horribly written, because it is extremely easy to get around.  So your tankbustas want to shoot at a space marine squad but there is a vehicle within LOS but clearly out of range?  "...must always attempt to shoot and/or assault an enemy vehicle..."  Ok, just choose the assault requirement, it says must attempt to shoot OR assault.  So shoot at the marine squad, and then attempt to assault the vehicle, which you can't because it is not a valid target as you didn't shoot at it.  Sounds easy to me, but maybe Flavius can figure it out exactly.

BTW, lootas FTW as the new falcon-killing experts.  I figure a full squad of 15 could down an Eldar skimmer each turn (30 shots, 10 hits, 3 glancing hits, 1 immobilized or destroyed roll).  Your opponent is going to be so worried about all the orks heading his way that 45 models with autocannons positioned 4 feet away are probably never going to be shot at.

The copy I have doesn't say shoot OR assault. Though I actually like the glory rule, it nice and orky. I think the out of range issue is overstated, you have a 30" threat range, elite deploys after heavy, and most mech lists aren't of the sit back on board edge and shoot type. Sure the other guy might be able to manouver to keep out of range, but that may just as much be disrupting his plans in doing so, if you think he'll do that then stick the bustas in a place that creates a 'cirlce of tank protection 30" '.  On the other hand I'm not sure that they are worth it, but thats nothing to do with the glory rule.

You really need to recheck your maths if you think 3 glances will average a downed falcon a turn. By 'falcon' of course no one normally means a bare bones version.

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 11:39 AM
Again, he gets Ld 10 from Mob Rule. He is going to be hard to stop when around a big mob of boyz, with even psychic hood only being effective 50% of the time. It is an easy way to represent the fluff that the more boyz around, the more powerful the weirdboy is.

 

I have to disagree with this.  His LD is equal to the number of boys in his squad.  If hes attached to a unit 30 boys strong his LD is 30 for the purposes of a psychic test.  No where in the main rule book does it say your LD is limited to 10.  Its just a matter that no model has ever been given a higher LD.

The specific ork rule says this.

"... Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal LD value."  If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless rule."

Ok, so if your at 11 your fearless, it doesn't ever say you top out at LD10.  Its just one of those little thngs.  When making a test, a Wierd boy attached to a mob currently of 16 or more boys never has to worry about a psychic hood.  Notice, you will still take Perils of the warp if you roll a 2 or a 12.  But as long as you have 11 or more boys with him he will never fail his test either.

Personally I have no problem with this.  The Hood is too damn powerfull and the ork psychic abilities aren't all that breaking.  It perfectly fits within the Ork fluff.  The Weirdboy has all his mates around him cheering him forward.  There is no way in hell he is going to fail.  That and you can only have two wierd boys in the army anyway.  Its not that bad.

Posted By Jayden63 on 11/01/2007 4:58 PM

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 11:39 AM
Again, he gets Ld 10 from Mob Rule. He is going to be hard to stop when around a big mob of boyz, with even psychic hood only being effective 50% of the time. It is an easy way to represent the fluff that the more boyz around, the more powerful the weirdboy is.

 

I have to disagree with this.  His LD is equal to the number of boys in his squad.  If hes attached to a unit 30 boys strong his LD is 30 for the purposes of a psychic test.  No where in the main rule book does it say your LD is limited to 10.  Its just a matter that no model has ever been given a higher LD.

The specific ork rule says this.

"... Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal LD value."  If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless rule."

Ok, so if your at 11 your fearless, it doesn't ever say you top out at LD10.  Its just one of those little thngs.  When making a test, a Wierd boy attached to a mob currently of 16 or more boys never has to worry about a psychic hood.  Notice, you will still take Perils of the warp if you roll a 2 or a 12.  But as long as you have 11 or more boys with him he will never fail his test either.

Personally I have no problem with this.  The Hood is too damn powerfull and the ork psychic abilities aren't all that breaking.  It perfectly fits within the Ork fluff.  The Weirdboy has all his mates around him cheering him forward.  There is no way in hell he is going to fail.  That and you can only have two wierd boys in the army anyway.  Its not that bad.

All characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10, page 12 of the rule book. That quite heavily implies that there is no such thing as a ld higher than 10.

Hmm, I missed that part. I went straight to the LD part and not the little paragraph before it all. Thanks. Still, LD 10 isn't bad either. Just not as cool. Hoods still suck though.

 

Of course you could always argue that codex rules take presidence over BBB rules.  The ork rule about replacing LD is very specific.  I'm not going to argue about one way or the other, its just interesting.   I wonder how long we will have to wait for a FAQ on a codex leaked 2 months early.

Posted By Da Boss on 11/01/2007 12:33 PM
Yeah I think Gitz are a bit too overpriced considering how specialised they are, and the low BS. I'd run them in combat patrol, for the laugh and because Gitz are fun, but I think they would be dissapointing in a full on game. I mean, you are looking at a VERY pricey unit that can be almost wiped out in a single battlecannon shot.

You guys DO realize flash gitz are all nobs right?  As in multi attack 2 wound higher leadership nobs.  About twice the size of an ork boy?  You know the ones I'm talking about right?  They are large?  Green?..

Yeah, the ones that will run scared before a big mob of boyz would (no fearlessness), that cost about as much as 4 shoota boyz (flash gits do anyways), that have two wounds but are instakilled by S8 weapons, that are basically out classed by the same points in boyz. Yeah, those nobs. I really want to like Flash Gits but they are not worth the points for what they can dish out and take in return.

wait a minute?! let me see if I get this straight. The one dude can take a character and turn him into a squig?! this will be the most hated coolest thing in the ork army. So a daemon prince or a blood thirster can get turned into a squiq?! hahahahahahaha, i cant wait.

There's no question that these are two of the best units in the list, but I think Trukk Boyz compare very favorably to Stormboyz. As blown away as I was initially by Stormboyz, I'm think Trukk Boyz might be the better option.

You can kit out 12 Boyz with a Big Shoota, Nob, Klaw and Bossple, put them in a Trukk with Red Paint, a Rokkit and a Wreckin Ball for the same cost as 13 Stormboyz with Nob, Klaw and Bosspole.

The Trukk is faster than the Stormboyz, it brings Rokkits and a Wreckin Ball (a very cute upgrade), and it protects the Boyz from flashlights. The Rokkit and Wreckin Ball are pretty major for a list that's short on anti-tank, and way long on anti-infantry.

It's also not totally terrible to be in a Trukk when it gets killed.

I half wonder if the amazing stats on the Stormboyz aren't there just to let them keep pace with a Trukk full of Boyz.



What abuse is that? Showing the Tankbustas a tank at long range to prevent them shooting elsewhere? Big deal.

I'm thinking about taking Tankbustas. Clearly you can get all the troop killing you need out of Trukk Boyz and Stormboyz, so it comes down to dealing with the enemy tanks. Tankbustas are far from a bargain, but the Glory Hog rule is really no big deal. You want them shooting at tanks, so the fact that they have to doesn't matter much.

Basically all this rule amounts to is that they can't shoot infantry if they can see a tank. I didn't buy them to shoot infantry, and if things go right, all the infantry will already be locked in CC with Boyz already anyway.

They're all packing Rokkits and Ork Meltabombs. If they get a look at a tank, they can put a lot of Rokkits in the air. If they assault a tank, forget it. They can also bring bomb-squigs, which virtually guarantee an S8 hit on any vehicle within 18", and with a downside that shouldn't be too big of a deal, as all the Trukks should be empty by the time the Tankbustas are shooting anyway.



I am too. But then again, if somebody is shooting them, they're not shooting the Trukks and Stormboyz, and if they don't put all their guns into that task for the first turn or two, they're going to lose bad enough that they can have the Tankbustas.

It's not like 10 Tankbustas is really even that expensive of a unit.



Yeah, but not Entanglement, right? This was never terribly clear to me. But Trukks no longer Entangle, just Pin, which is a major, MAJOR benefit for Orks.

Posted By winterman on 11/01/2007 9:13 PM

You guys DO realize flash gitz are all nobs right? As in multi attack 2 wound higher leadership nobs. About twice the size of an ork boy? You know the ones I'm talking about right? They are large? Green?..

Yeah, the ones that will run scared before a big mob of boyz would (no fearlessness), that cost about as much as 4 shoota boyz (flash gits do anyways), that have two wounds but are instakilled by S8 weapons, that are basically out classed by the same points in boyz. Yeah, those nobs. I really want to like Flash Gits but they are not worth the points for what they can dish out and take in return.

Just making sure.  People were acting like they were somehow 15 points overpriced and could never ever possibly ever make back their points costs.  They aren't a terrible unit they are just hugely outclassed by their competition (lootas and regular boyz).

Thanks for the rundown, Uatu. Lots of good stuff in there. That being said, I don't play Orks.

Of course, I'm still waiting patiently for HBMC's review.

ShumaGorath:
Knowing that they're nobz and thinking that they're 15 points overpriced and could never ever possibly ever make back their points costs are not mutually exclusive. All three are true IMO.

Posted By smart_alex on 11/01/2007 10:41 PM
wait a minute?! let me see if I get this straight. The one dude can take a character and turn him into a squig?! this will be the most hated coolest thing in the ork army. So a daemon prince or a blood thirster can get turned into a squiq?! hahahahahahaha, i cant wait.

Neither the Daemon Prince nor the Bloodthirster are IC's any more so it won't work on them.

*flips through Chaos Codex to check*

Guys, what's a Bloodthirster?

BYE


This dig at the Chaos Codex was brought to you by the Charity for the Terminally Stupid.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 11/02/2007 3:57 AM
*flips through Chaos Codex to check*

Guys, what's a Bloodthirster?

BYE


This dig at the Chaos Codex was brought to you by the Charity for the Terminally Stupid.

Comments like this are why I'm waiting patiently for your review.

Ya know, its funny you bring it up, but now whenever I call the demons by name at the local GW, all the newer players give me weird glazed over looks.

Trukks are absurdly great.

Fast Vehicle.

Open topped.

Three of the best vehicle upgrades in the entire game.
Red-paint job
Reinforced Ram
Grot Riggers


And finally....ramshackle!

Move over Raiders, you are finally out-classed as the game's premier light transport.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/31/2007 4:55 PM
Geeze... talk about stealing someone else's thunder...

BYE

Well it was a fairly objective, didn't contradict itself and lacked a bucket of cynical comments.  I think your "thunder" is safe!

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 2:06 PM
okay, it goes by the flow guys.

Options
you may exchange a boyz slugga or shoota for a big shoota or rokkit.
You can also upgrade a boy to a nob. It does not say that it can't be the boy you earlier upgraded to a rokkit or big shoota. I have found no where in the version I have that would not allow me to do this. It doesn't give you an extra weapon though. All it lets you do is keep the cool conversion you had, or put it on a moderately more survivable model. You can therefore get a nob in a boyz mob with a Big Shoota or Rokkit and a Power Klaw.

Eh, I didn't notice that the first reading around.  I think this was one of the *female dog*es my buddy had too...

Posted By uatu13 on 10/31/2007 4:53 PM

Wazzdakka Gutzmek lost almost all of his special abilities, and instead is allowed to shoot after turbo boosting. He now has a S8 gun, which is cool, but give that he’s only BS2 it probably won’t make much of a difference. He’s also a ton more points, which is a shame.

I think you missed the part where he makes warbikers Troops, and the fact he can fire his weaponS after turbo boosting, which is the dakkacannon ( which is assault4)  or the custom mega blasta he has or his slugga.  he is a mek with warboss stats so he can also fix stuff in a pinch too ( snicker) But for his points he points wise on par with a warboss on a bike and pk  well give or take 30 points or so, but with all the extras he gives he is worth it.

Wow, that is some nice tank killing ability.

Narlix, check his S. He doesn't have Warboss stats. Still, I'd definitely say his special rules are worth the points, provided you're able to make use of the FA slots he frees up.

He's certainly a good answer to a lot of potentially sticky problems.
T6(5) is pretty good too, on something that fast and punchy and shooty.
I really hope GW actually do models for all the special characters this time.

If you do the statistics Warbikers are an excellent fast attack choice. That is, assuming their Deffguns are actually twin-linked. Unfortunately the summarized rules towards the end of the codex state that warbikers simply get "Deffguns," while at the same time it was stated earlier in the codex in the entry for war bikers that they carry twin-linked Deffguns. This contradiction will be used by non-ork players to harass us and call the judge over. Because all judges don't think alike, this will result in Warbikers having random effectiveness. If the judge rules that the Deffguns are twin-linked, then Warbikers, for that particular game, will be amazing. If the judge rules that they are not twin-linked, they will be below average units, according to statistics. Such a shame that GW could make such a horrible mistake, having a units effectiveness dependent on juge perpectives rather than absolute rules. Unless this is fixed before printing, I won't be using them. I won't play with a unit that has random effectiveness in each different tournament game.

Did you notice that the Nob has only one wound, too? Better hope for some last-minute proofreading or a hasty FAQ.

I did notice that they didn't list their Deffguns as being TL in ther unit entry, but I think it's pretty obvious that they're twin linked, not only from the model, but also as carried over from the previous codex. Anyone that argues they're not TL is just being a jackball.

I do think Ork bikes are nice, especially since their armor and dust cloud save is improved, and now that they have 2 CCW with furious charge. What stopped me from taking them before is their lack of choppas, but now they're a pretty decent way to get a whole bunch of orks into CC. The only problem I see with them is that with their small unit sizes they're much more susceptible to running after only a few guys are killed. I would have liked to see some bonus for the smaller, more elite units to keep them in the game longer, but oh well. I definitely think ork bikes have a place in future games, and their new models are totally awesome!

I'm not talking about the summary page that was leaked a while back. I'm talking about the Warbikers rules entry towards the back in the full leaked codex. Nobz have 2 wounds in its rules entry, the only problem is the Deffguns. The larger entry towards the beginning that has the fluff and the Deffgun stats says that Warbikers have twin-linked Deffguns, but the smaller rules entry later in the codex does not state that they are twin-linked. People will certainly harass Ork players by arguing that the earlier entry is just for fluff, and the rules entry later in the book with the point costs, wargear, upgrades, etc... is the correct ruling to use.

I'm looking at it now. The Nob has one wound.

The entry for bike squads doesn't even list the Dakkacannons. However, They have Bikes. The rules for the bikes is that they have twin-linked Dakkacannons.

I crunched the numbers for them and found out that Bike squads outshoot both a Tornado and a 6 man las/plas squad point-for-point...And they're more mobile and better in HTH...

What are you talking about? It's listed in their wargear (Dakkagun, not cannon), clear as day.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/02/2007 1:49 PM

The entry for bike squads doesn't even list the Dakkacannons.

What are you talking about? It's listed in their wargear (Dakkagun, not cannon), clear as day.

yup and if you want to read it RAW it looks like the ork personally has a choppa, slugga and dakka-gun, and the warbike which he also comes with has a twin-linked dakka gun (under the warbike rules).

I don't see an issue with the twin-linking, you just need to be clear you are firing the warbikes dakka-cannon, not his own personal one.

The 1 wound nob is amusing though.

Posted By skyth on 11/02/2007 1:32 PM
The entry for bike squads doesn't even list the Dakkacannons. However, They have Bikes. The rules for the bikes is that they have twin-linked Dakkacannons.

I crunched the numbers for them and found out that Bike squads outshoot both a Tornado and a 6 man las/plas squad point-for-point...And they're more mobile and better in HTH...

Thats to be expected though, this codex is a mash of lousy and rampant power creep.  (like shoota boyz costing the same as guardsmen yet being superior in every way.  They should have been 7 pts. apiece, but thats a different story altogether)

basically its doing the same thing as most of the codexes that have come before it. (excluding marine variants)

Posted By skyth on 11/02/2007 1:32 PM
The entry for bike squads doesn't even list the Dakkacannons. However, They have Bikes. The rules for the bikes is that they have twin-linked Dakkacannons.

I crunched the numbers for them and found out that Bike squads outshoot both a Tornado and a 6 man las/plas squad point-for-point...And they're more mobile and better in HTH...

Assuming you mean MEQ targets, then not by my reckoning, the tornado significantly outshoots the bikers point for point, the las/plas is slightly weaker at 13-18, but significantly better at rapid fire range.

for points spent per (mean average) dead MEQ i get
the biker at 68.5pts
the tornado at 48pts
the lasplas at 74pts/45pts for >12/<=12.

Posted By puree on 11/02/2007 4:55 PM

Posted By skyth on 11/02/2007 1:32 PM
The entry for bike squads doesn't even list the Dakkacannons. However, They have Bikes. The rules for the bikes is that they have twin-linked Dakkacannons.

I crunched the numbers for them and found out that Bike squads outshoot both a Tornado and a 6 man las/plas squad point-for-point...And they're more mobile and better in HTH...

Assuming you mean MEQ targets, then not by my reckoning, the tornado significantly outshoots the bikers point for point, the las/plas is slightly weaker at 13-18, but significantly better at rapid fire range.

for points spent per (mean average) dead MEQ i get
the biker at 68.5pts
the tornado at 48pts
the lasplas at 74pts/45pts for >12/<=12.

I'll move it to tactics...But I mean the bikers shooting at the tornado vs the tornado shooting at the bikers...

Anyone notice that the big shootas/rokkits for the Battlewagon are no longer "bolt-on" weapons that must be fired by the passengers?  Now the crew fire them, leaving the passengers to shoot their own guns.  Lootas (or even Flash Gitz) in Battlewagons are sweet...

Also, the description for kustom mega blasta says it gets hot.  Does this have any effect on a Killa Kan or Deff Dread if it gets hot while they are shooting it?  As it is written it doesn't look like it but maybe I'm missing something.

IntoTheRain:
Let's not exaggerate things. Only the most optimistic Ork players and most pessimistic mechdar players have suggested that new Orks > mechdar, for instance, and between new Orks and asscannon spam Marines with Castellan WWs, my money is with the Marines.

Posted By Beast on 11/03/2007 12:59 AM

Anyone notice that the big shootas/rokkits for the Battlewagon are no longer "bolt-on" weapons that must be fired by the passengers?  Now the crew fire them, leaving the passengers to shoot their own guns.  Lootas (or even Flash Gitz) in Battlewagons are sweet...

Also, the description for kustom mega blasta says it gets hot.  Does this have any effect on a Killa Kan or Deff Dread if it gets hot while they are shooting it?  As it is written it doesn't look like it but maybe I'm missing something.

Gets hot rule itself says it doesn't affect vehicles.

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 11/02/2007 7:51 AM

Well it was a fairly objective, didn't contradict itself and lacked a bucket of cynical comments.  I think your "thunder" is safe!

Please point out where I contradicted myself. I'd be interested to hear.

And if it's where I laughed at Havocs having access to the MoK, then please don't bother...

BYE

A little OT: Hey HBMC, when/where will Armybuilder files be ready for the Ork Codex?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 11/03/2007 2:05 AM

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 11/02/2007 7:51 AM

Well it was a fairly objective, didn't contradict itself and lacked a bucket of cynical comments.  I think your "thunder" is safe!

Please point out where I contradicted myself. I'd be interested to hear.

And if it's where I laughed at Havocs having access to the MoK, then please don't bother...

BYE

Actually, that wasn't one I was talking about (Although now that you mention it)...

Regardless, PM sent.  I don't want to completely pollute the thread so we can continue there.

Posted By malfred on 11/03/2007 6:57 AM
A little OT: Hey HBMC, when/where will Armybuilder files be ready for the Ork Codex?

Not my area sorry.


AgeOfEgos:

The Havocs with the MoK comment isn't a contradiction of my earlier statements in regards to my ire over the gross simplification and distillation of Khorne. In fact, the MoK Havoc comment was in support of my statements. I would have thought it obvious what I meant by the comment, but let me explain in the simplest terms I can:

Old GW Khorne = Lord of Combat, God of Blood, pride, honour, martial prowess.
New GW Khorne = RAR! KILL! TAKE SKULLS! RAH!!!!

Havocs should be able to get the Mark of Khorne, and it should make them better shooters, not give them an extra attack. That is why I found it funny.

Not a contradiction.


BYE

Oops, maybe I was thinking of Ghaz. My bad.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 11/03/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By malfred on 11/03/2007 6:57 AM
A little OT: Hey HBMC, when/where will Armybuilder files be ready for the Ork Codex?

Not my area sorry.


AgeOfEgos:

The Havocs with the MoK comment isn't a contradiction of my earlier statements in regards to my ire over the gross simplification and distillation of Khorne. In fact, the MoK Havoc comment was in support of my statements. I would have thought it obvious what I meant by the comment, but let me explain in the simplest terms I can:

Old GW Khorne = Lord of Combat, God of Blood, pride, honour, martial prowess.
New GW Khorne = RAR! KILL! TAKE SKULLS! RAH!!!!

Havocs should be able to get the Mark of Khorne, and it should make them better shooters, not give them an extra attack. That is why I found it funny.

Not a contradiction.


BYE

Well, you brought the Havoc bit up...not I bubba.  I sent you a PM and we can continue there.  Lets save the rest of the thread for the Ork lovers.

 

How does this new codex affect the Kult of Speed?

From what I read, trukks =/= entanglement = lots of killing.
Stormboyz viable. But no burnas and choppas for the boys? How will that affect marines and terminators?

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 11/03/2007 8:24 AM

Well, you brought the Havoc bit up...not I bubba.  I sent you a PM and we can continue there.  Lets save the rest of the thread for the Ork lovers.

Are you trying to prevent this thread from going OT, Egos?  Because I just can't allow that.

Cheese!

Posted By Shadow_Strike on 11/03/2007 8:41 AM
How does this new codex affect the Kult of Speed?

From what I read, trukks =/= entanglement = lots of killing.
Stormboyz viable. But no burnas and choppas for the boys? How will that affect marines and terminators?

Regular Marines will still go down through numbers.

Terminators are a tougher nut to crack. They're expensive though and every Boyz squad usually includes a Power Klaw Nob. The regular Boyz will mostly just shield the Nob while he does the damage.

Orks are no longer auto-win vs. Lysander/Deathwing, but I think they'll still match up well.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/03/2007 1:11 AM
Let's not exaggerate things. Only the most optimistic Ork players and most pessimistic mechdar players have suggested that new Orks > mechdar, for instance, and between new Orks and asscannon spam Marines with Castellan WWs, my money is with the Marines.

I'm actually one of the ones who doesn't think it will affect the meta >

I was more of making the point how bad GW is getting about making good units bad and bad units good to the point of outright absurdity. (Guard players should be screaming about the cost of Shoota/Slugga Boyz)

Posted By IntoTheRain on 11/03/2007 12:25 PM

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/03/2007 1:11 AM
Let's not exaggerate things. Only the most optimistic Ork players and most pessimistic mechdar players have suggested that new Orks > mechdar, for instance, and between new Orks and asscannon spam Marines with Castellan WWs, my money is with the Marines.

I'm actually one of the ones who doesn't think it will affect the meta >

I was more of making the point how bad GW is getting about making good units bad and bad units good to the point of outright absurdity. (Guard players should be screaming about the cost of Shoota/Slugga Boyz)

I think Guard players are too busy screaming about the cost of Battle Sisters vs. Stormtroopers. Once we get our voices back we'll complain about Shoota/Slugga Boyz.

Well, that's not power creep then, is it? Power creep is when a later codex is stronger than earlier ones, not when a codex is internally unbalanced.

Well, compare Orks to Dark Angels or Chaos...I'd say Orks are more powerful...

But invoking DA, BA and Chaos already disproves the notion of power creep, as these are clearly codices that are weaker than what came before.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/03/2007 1:42 PM
But invoking DA, BA and Chaos already disproves the notion of power creep, as these are clearly codices that are weaker than what came before.

It's not 'power creep' any more with 40K Codexes. The term 'power rollercoaster' is much more accurate.

Posted By Asmodai on 11/03/2007 12:34 PM

I think Guard players are too busy screaming about the cost of Battle Sisters vs. Stormtroopers.

Well, if it makes you feel any better at least Stormtroopers will still be around in 5th edition.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/03/2007 11:27 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 11/03/2007 12:34 PM

I think Guard players are too busy screaming about the cost of Battle Sisters vs. Stormtroopers.

Well, if it makes you feel any better at least Stormtroopers will still be around in 5th edition.

The way you say it doesn't make me feel any better at all!

HAHAHAH! Boy am I glad I own 40 Storm Boyz!

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/03/2007 11:27 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 11/03/2007 12:34 PM

I think Guard players are too busy screaming about the cost of Battle Sisters vs. Stormtroopers.

Well, if it makes you feel any better at least Stormtroopers will still be around in 5th edition.

Bite your tounge! If they take out Sisters, I am showing up at their door with ~35 pounds of metal minis in a sock, and beating them with it until a new Codex comes out... or money. I would also be willing to hit them till money comes out.

No existing armies that have a codex will be removed, that is GW's mantra now so I don't think you need to worry about the sisters going anywhere.

Yea, but watch they become an elite choice in a new Inquisition codex that combines the Witch Hunters and Daemon hunters... and increased in price to make Storm Troopers worth taking.

Take a deep breath Wehr...
Fevered dreams are not reality, fevered dreams are not reality, fevered dreams are not reality... sigh... ok better now...

Posted By Wehrkind on 11/04/2007 8:08 AM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/03/2007 11:27 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 11/03/2007 12:34 PM

I think Guard players are too busy screaming about the cost of Battle Sisters vs. Stormtroopers.

Well, if it makes you feel any better at least Stormtroopers will still be around in 5th edition.

Bite your tounge! If they take out Sisters, I am showing up at their door with ~35 pounds of metal minis in a sock, and beating them with it until a new Codex comes out... or money. I would also be willing to hit them till money comes out.

What about candy?  Would you accept candy?

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 2:28 PM

Posted By Wehrkind on 11/04/2007 8:08 AM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/03/2007 11:27 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 11/03/2007 12:34 PM

I think Guard players are too busy screaming about the cost of Battle Sisters vs. Stormtroopers.

Well, if it makes you feel any better at least Stormtroopers will still be around in 5th edition.

Bite your tounge! If they take out Sisters, I am showing up at their door with ~35 pounds of metal minis in a sock, and beating them with it until a new Codex comes out... or money. I would also be willing to hit them till money comes out.

What about candy?  Would you accept candy?

Only if he were somehow able to exude some 2-3 metric tonnes of Nerds, Gobstoppers, spice jelly beans, and possibly those Sweet Tart Jellybeans. My combined love for those 4 candies and impossible volume humor might make me forget the burning rage coursing through my veins. Until I develope diabetes and have to eat Quaker oatmeal for the rest of my life, shouting "diabetus!" every morning before I hit my wife, who had been dead for 7 years.

Edit: Alternately, he could scream "My anus is bleeding!" for like 3 minutes while he drowns in his own blood. That has produced positive effects on my psyche in the past.

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:44 AM

No existing armies that have a codex will be removed, that is GW's mantra now so I don't think you need to worry about the sisters going anywhere.

Tell that to the squats.

Posted By Shadow_Strike on 11/04/2007 5:27 PM

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:44 AM

No existing armies that have a codex will be removed, that is GW's mantra now so I don't think you need to worry about the sisters going anywhere.

Tell that to the squats.

Why? That wasn't GW's mantra before. GW used to create new armies willy-nilly without thinking about the ramifications about having to support those armies in the future. They never said before "all your current armies will remain valid forever".

They've changed that concept now and have publicly stated it. While it means we won't be seeing any more sub-armies like Feral Orks or Kroot Mercs (unless they graduate to full codex status) it also means we won't ever be losing any armies that currently have a codex.

 

Ah, din't see the word "now". Its a shame, Kroot Mercs and the Ferals were pretty fun rules and I'd like to have seen more.

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:44 AM

No existing armies that have a codex will be removed, that is GW's mantra now so I don't think you need to worry about the sisters going anywhere.

Not that GW's known for clever business practices, but c'mon Yak, be honest, if Sisters suddenly stopped selling yesterday, and no one wanted them, GW would drop them faster than they did the rules for Bloodthirsters.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 11/04/2007 8:01 PM

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:44 AM

No existing armies that have a codex will be removed, that is GW's mantra now so I don't think you need to worry about the sisters going anywhere.

Not that GW's known for clever business practices, but c'mon Yak, be honest, if Sisters suddenly stopped selling yesterday, and no one wanted them, GW would drop them faster than they did the rules for Bloodthirsters.

BYE

what are these bloodthirster things you keep mentioning?  there is no such a monster.. 

 

(edit for punctuation)

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 6:47 PM

Posted By Shadow_Strike on 11/04/2007 5:27 PM

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 11:44 AM

No existing armies that have a codex will be removed, that is GW's mantra now so I don't think you need to worry about the sisters going anywhere.

Tell that to the squats.

Why? That wasn't GW's mantra before. GW used to create new armies willy-nilly without thinking about the ramifications about having to support those armies in the future. They never said before "all your current armies will remain valid forever".

They've changed that concept now and have publicly stated it. While it means we won't be seeing any more sub-armies like Feral Orks or Kroot Mercs (unless they graduate to full codex status) it also means we won't ever be losing any armies that currently have a codex.

The =][= codices were released before this policy was adopted.  Andy Chambers had to fight tooth and nail to get a Sisters codex green-lighted by the bean-counters and was only able to do so because he pitched it as part of an =][= Trilogy - and this was back when he was Overfiend.  I doubt anyone in the studio has that kind of pull anymore.  And the post-Chambers release schedule certainly seems to support this - looking at Codex: Black Templars, the upcoming Codex: Ruinous Powers, and the complete lack of even token support for LatD it's not unreasonable to conclude that the studio no longer has any say in what gets released.

So while Jervis may honestly believe all the promises he makes, he's really not in any position to ensure they are kept.  I'm sure management is perfectly happy to feed him all kinds of assurances so that he can come to us and feed us platitudes.  Words are cheap and it costs them absolutely nothing to tell players, "don't worry - your armies will always be supported, so buy with confidence!"  They may even fully intend to keep the promises they make now, but what about a few years down the road?  GW has certainly reversed course and broken promises several times in the past, and if you believe they will never do it again, well... a wise man once said: "Fool me once, shame on... shame on you.  Fool me... ya can't get fooled again!"

To say they have no pull is to ignore the fact that Apoc was released. Talking about a gamble that it sounds like it was hard fought for...

Posted By Toreador on 11/05/2007 9:26 AM
To say they have no pull is to ignore the fact that Apoc was released. Talking about a gamble that it sounds like it was hard fought for...

Um....go back to econ 101.

Let's see, we want to get a sure thing for christmas, and we are GW.  Do we:

A) Release a codex that 10% of the gamers care about.  (Alienhunters)
B) Re-Release a codex that 50% of everyone plays.  (Space Marines)
C) Release a game supplement that forces everyone to have mega huge armies to play, and bring out a gigantic kit that can be used with just about every race to kick it off!

The answer is quite obvious.  Apocalypse as itself is a practically ZERO risk product.  The actual rules, how much "developement" do you think it really took to take all the strategems out of CoD, and then add 10,000 pts?  The premise of the game is brilliant!  PLAY HUGE GAMES OF WARHAMMER WITH YOUR FRIENDS = buy alot of stuff so you CAN play huge battles of warhammer with your friends.  I mean hell, who hasn't played a regular megabattle with your friends.  It's not like this is a new idea!  But now, they totally broke the bank on it!

Freakin' ingenious!

yeah, I wouldn't consider Apoc to be a high risk gamble. The margins on the books, templates and dice alone have to be killer, and the ability to offer package deals on ultra high margin plastic kits is a huge bonus. Add in the fact that most gamers like big games, and that Vets felt burned on a couple of the previous releases, and it was a pretty surefire thing.

Even when they released Witchhunters, they got, what, a dozen or two new metal sculpts and a single plastic sprue? Not exactly a huge release. The only new sisters were a few special weapons, cannonesses, and the repentia.

Everybody brings squats up in every discussion, but that was a particular case that occured almost a decade ago, and they hadn't gotten a new model in the what, five years before that?

Well, there were a few new VSSes (on foot and jump-packing) as well, but that's about it.

Posted By Polonius on 11/05/2007 10:06 AM


Everybody brings squats up in every discussion, but that was a particular case that occured almost a decade ago, and they hadn't gotten a new model in the what, five years before that?

     What really ticked a lot of the Squat players around here off was not only having a big investment of time and money wasted, but GW's non explanation of why their armies were suddenly thrown out of the game.   From what I read on the forums back then, Fat Bloke's answer to Squat players who asked what was happening to their army was  to "get their priorities straight".  This answer was also published in a White Dwarf interview, IIRC..  I never played them, but  the way in which Squats were invalidated has to have been one  of the biggest bad will generating moves GW has done in the view of a lot of people. 
  I think that's why you'll always hear about Squats.

Actually, being a squat player with large 40k and Epic squat forces, I remember it well. The problem was that they kept it alive for a bit. It went like this.

New edition came out, and they stated they didn't like how the squat were themed. The whole fat biker t-shirt thing didn't really work, so they wanted something different. Over the years they came out with little bits and rumours on squats, but they were basically dead. A miniature painting guide they published in the 90's even had some of the more norse inspired squat test models. They just couldn't find a good theme that all of them agreed upon, that wasn't like something already out. No one really seemed to be interested in it after so much time, and it became quite a dead subject. They started replying that the army was dead, and there would never be squats.

Then came the mention of the demi-urge, which were a nod to the squats. Thus it is perpetuated, and all the hard core squat players still have some odd hope of a return.

That's true, now that you mention it. I remember the Norse Squats well. Just to check myself, I'll have to go through my old WD collection, and read that interview with Fat Bloke where he was asked about the Squats. I remember for sure his " priorities" answer pissed a lot of people here off.

I had a squat army. They were in codex imperialis and the get you by army lists for second edition, and I loved the background for them, so I chugged away in ignorance (I didn't have White Dwarf or the Intartubes to inform me that this was a hopeless endevour), ordering squats from suprised mail order trolls with my hard earned punts. Then I eventually cottoned on that there was never going to be a Squat codex despite promises to the contrary from promotional material. I was a bit shocked that they could mislead customers like that, but I just ran my army using the rules available and had fun with them. Eventually, 3rd edition came out and I switched to Orks.
That was my first taste of GWs unique brand of customer service and communication. Since then the bitterness has only gotten worse. But hey, at least this new codex has me very happy, even if it did take an unreasonably long amount of time to get released.

to talk about something else but sqauts. just saw the backside of the new 'Dex. can ANYONE tell me, why Orks as only army till now in 4th editon don't get a new Plastic HQ. Terminator Lord, Space marine Chief, new Tau Suit with metal bitz, new metal farseers and 3 autarchs....

where the squig is my plastic warboss??? argh.....

...
We also don't have a kit for our mainline tanks, and currently only one of our named characters has a kit. The warboss is the least of our worries- at least we have a model for him!

Why don't you ask a question we can answer, like "Where the plastic warboss is my squig?" (Answer: Sitting on your metal Warboss, giving him one more normal CCW attack at the cost of a whole Space Marine. . . .)

Heh. I like what they did with that actually- they've had that "squig on a leash" model for ages and you couldn't actually equip a boss that way, so now they make it a bit more likely that people will buy it.

Would a plastic warboss be any good? I mean the plastic FB version is the suck 'cause they made it compatable with the plastic ork kits out there so what you got was something that was not big enough to even call a big boss. A plastic SM character is roughly the same size as a regular SM (or terminator for you spiky boyz), but a Ork warboss needs to be friggin' 'UGE!
what I'd rather see is another metal Warboss with some options like the eldar autarchs. Give us a selection of heads, arms, armour and bannas and we can mix and match for a god deal of variety. A plastic kit would make our Warboss weedy like the new plastic nob that comes with the ork boyz box. Not that they would have to go small for a plastic Warboss, but I bet this is why they haven't done one yet.


Dosadi

I'd quite like to see all potential wargear options represented. It wouldn't be too hard to do, now that options are fairly limited.

I think it should be done, but given GWs embarassing track record with Ork models, I'm not actually expecting it.

I want a Warboss on a bike, meself!

As would I. The warboss needs a ridiculous bike. And I do not want to have to make do with Wazzdakka's model, should he actually get one this edition. And a non Ghaz mega armoured boss would be nice.

Posted By Da Boss on 11/05/2007 6:34 PM
As would I. The warboss needs a ridiculous bike. And I do not want to have to make do with Wazzdakka's model, should he actually get one this edition. And a non Ghaz mega armoured boss would be nice.

Oh, I think after applying a little creativity to the Boss model and kitting together a Buggy and a Wartrakk, with a little bit of green stuff you can mash together a decent Warboss on Bike....

Wow, that is a brilliant looking model! Kudos!
In a similar vein, I want to convert a rhino chasis into a mobile snotling/squig pen with a big mek standing on top with a shokk attack gun as a looted boomwagon.

Nice Boss, Voodoo. I think I'll take a similar direction for mine.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/05/2007 8:47 AM

So while Jervis may honestly believe all the promises he makes, he's really not in any position to ensure they are kept.  I'm sure management is perfectly happy to feed him all kinds of assurances so that he can come to us and feed us platitudes.  Words are cheap and it costs them absolutely nothing to tell players, "don't worry - your armies will always be supported, so buy with confidence!"  They may even fully intend to keep the promises they make now, but what about a few years down the road?  GW has certainly reversed course and broken promises several times in the past, and if you believe they will never do it again, well... a wise man once said: "Fool me once, shame on... shame on you.  Fool me... ya can't get fooled again!"

Actually, Jervis is in the exact position to ensure this. That is his job.

And GW has never had someone in charge of the design teams that has said: We will not drop any current armies ever. We will revisit all armies on a roughly five year cycle and we will not be coming out with new army types unless we are absolutely certain that we want to support them indefinitely.

All that is new and I see no reason not to believe that is the direction they are headed.

 

Sounds like i need to ditch the idea of a tankbusta squad, change the idea of buying more big gunz, maybe buy more stormboyz, continue on my loota squad, and get more trukks and a battlewagon. And keep grotsnik.

Posted By yakface on 11/05/2007 10:02 PM

Actually, Jervis is in the exact position to ensure this. That is his job.

And GW has never had someone in charge of the design teams that has said: We will not drop any current armies ever. We will revisit all armies on a roughly five year cycle and we will not be coming out with new army types unless we are absolutely certain that we want to support them indefinitely.

All that is new and I see no reason not to believe that is the direction they are headed.

Jervis isn't the head of the design team. Figurehead perhaps - the oldest warhorse in the stable - but he's not the guy in charge.

And you'd be ignorant to believe that GW doesn't have the capacity to simply change their position tomorrow, as they have changed their position on things several times in the past.

I seem to remember being told at the start of 4th Ed that all our armies would remain valid and that nothing would change. My LatD army doesn't believe the lies Jervis spits these days - so why should any of us?

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 11/06/2007 5:03 PM

Jervis isn't the head of the design team. Figurehead perhaps - the oldest warhorse in the stable - but he's not the guy in charge.

And you'd be ignorant to believe that GW doesn't have the capacity to simply change their position tomorrow, as they have changed their position on things several times in the past.

I seem to remember being told at the start of 4th Ed that all our armies would remain valid and that nothing would change. My LatD army doesn't believe the lies Jervis spits these days - so why should any of us?

BYE

And you have this information based on what authority exactly?

I went to Jervis's seminar this year at Adepticon where he explicitly explained his role in Games Worskhop now. He isn't he head of the company or anything crazy like that but he does oversee the games design for all of their games. It is he who has implemented the design changes that codices/armies will be revisited based on a (roughly) five year plan, that no sub-army lists will be created or supported and that all armies that are currently supported will be in use forever.

So yes, he is exactly the person who has the power to say such a thing.

And they said that codices would remain valid in 4th edition, which they did. . .and besides, Jervis wasn't managing the design teams at that point.

 

 

 

 

True. But with a public company, people can be fired, and I think people are of the
opinion that profit dips might lead to management shuffles.

There's a difference when Jervis says something about the design of the game and,
say, Matt Wilson of Privateer Press says something about the design of the game. Both
of them are passionate and devoted to their games, but really of the two only one is
synonymous with the company.

I believe that Jervis's vision is something that he wants and has the power to provide. I
also believe that that power can be taken away.

(Although someday Matt Wilson is going to wake up hung over and apathetic and say, "F- it."
and turn all of the new Privateer Press releases into San Rio characters.)

Back to the big question. Is the Kult of Speed rool book still viable? or is it trash now.

Posted By Shadow_Strike on 11/09/2007 7:22 PM
Back to the big question. Is the Kult of Speed rool book still viable? or is it trash now.

It is gone. . .to be precise the Armageddon codex has been out of print for years now and the "semi-official" Kult of Speed Rules on the website will no longer be needed.

You can do a pretty good job of replicating an old KoS army list with the new book and it should perform even better!

The big change is going to be the fact that you can no longer mount units like Tankbustas and Burnas in Trukks and that Looted Wagons come one per heavy choice as opposed to squadrons of three (as you used to be able to take with looted Rhinos).

 

 

Why would you pick the looted wagon over Battle ones? Points?

Posted By malfred on 11/10/2007 4:13 AM
Why would you pick the looted wagon over Battle ones? Points?

Yep. Quite a few less points and the Boomgun has better range and Strength than the Killacannon.

Not to mention some of us have relied on looted vehicles for our Heavy Support and already have converted Imperial vehicles for the job.

Though I did get alot of use out of a 70pt. Skorcha Wagon as a transport for my Burnas. Mulling the decision to use one with Rokkits, Ram, Wrecking Ball, Plank, and the Grabbin' Klaw as a transport for some Tankbustas. May just spend the points on Deffkoptas.

Looks like Orks got a bit of a powerboost, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near the top tier stuff. Nidzilla can still give them problems (take 2+ saves and genestealers > orks). Space Marines have castellan mines and lots of assault cannons. Eldar have problems now that there are so many mid-high strength shots coming their way, but keep in mind that alot of Eldar staples make mince meat of orks (dire avengers + bladestorm, scatter lasers, shuriken cannons, harlies). Chaos players are going to love their lashes, obliterators and, surprisingly, generic daemons. Honestly, I think the generic daemon is one of the answers chaos has to the ork horde. they stack up reasonably well, can be summoned in nice places and are fairly cheap to help minimize that army size spread. So while I think that Orks aren't the joke army they were generally considered to be previously, they aren't exactly top tier.

That infiltrating Kommando dude cuts into your Loota slots. I know what I'd rather have.
What's the general consensus here for powerful Ork lists?

so do we know what characters/troops are getting new models ?

are they all gonna be new models ?

if not which ones are ?

all the best

cheers

this has been around for some time now, but I'll tell you anyway. at first we'll get new models for:
tankbustas
burnaboyz/lootaz
trucks
big mek with shokk attack gun
weirdboy
bikes
and a recut boysprue with more bits

what about the rest of the models will they all get redone at some stage ?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Jervis isn't the head of the design team. Figurehead perhaps - the oldest warhorse in the stable - but he's not the guy in charge.

My LatD army doesn't believe the lies Jervis spits these days - so why should any of us?

Correct. Jervis is merely the guy with the overriding vision of what 40k looks like. He is the guy whose models get people to play 40k instead of something else.

I thought you didn't play 40k anymore, so why do you care what GW says about LatD?

malfred wrote:Why would you pick the looted wagon over Battle ones? Points?

Because you were stupid. Looted Wagons are awful. Whoever thought of putting a xx point gun on a AV11 frame should be shot.

Redbeard wrote:

malfred wrote:Why would you pick the looted wagon over Battle ones? Points?

Because you were stupid. Looted Wagons are awful. Whoever thought of putting a xx point gun on a AV11 frame should be shot.

Longer range, better gun, cheaper cost. Yeah, that's so stupid.

yakface wrote:And they said that codices would remain valid in 4th edition, which they did. . .and besides, Jervis wasn't managing the design teams at that point.

*checks Codex: Eye of Terror*

Nope. Doesn't look valid to me Yak!

And, so, Jervis wasn't in charge then, yet when he came on board he changed their mission statement? So, GW changed their point of view, kind've like how they went from Chapter Approved Lists to no Chapter Approved Lists to Chapter Approved Blood Angels.

Come. On. Yak.

GW changes their positions as often as most gamers change their underwear... eww.... To say that they're going to support the armies they've got forevermore is just bull-headedly ignorant. If Sisters stop selling today, they'll be gone tomorrow. They're a business. Dead product lines get cut, no matter who's in charge.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

yakface wrote:And they said that codices would remain valid in 4th edition, which they did. . .and besides, Jervis wasn't managing the design teams at that point.

*checks Codex: Eye of Terror*

Nope. Doesn't look valid to me Yak!

And, so, Jervis wasn't in charge then, yet when he came on board he changed their mission statement? So, GW changed their point of view, kind've like how they went from Chapter Approved Lists to no Chapter Approved Lists to Chapter Approved Blood Angels.

Come. On. Yak.

GW changes their positions as often as most gamers change their underwear... eww.... To say that they're going to support the armies they've got forevermore is just bull-headedly ignorant. If Sisters stop selling today, they'll be gone tomorrow. They're a business. Dead product lines get cut, no matter who's in charge.

BYE

Given the amount GW has invested in art, fluff, molds, back catalog, good will and marketing for each army, I really think they don't want Sisters, Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc. to become dead product lines. GW can say that they're supporting the armies with 4th ed. Codexes fairly easily since those product lines represent a huge portion of the company's value. It's like Microsoft saying they intend to keep releasing new versions of Office. Sure they won't if no one buys it, but the company is going to do everything it can to prevent that scenario.

I tried asking this on the other thread and haven't gotten a reply. I'm just wondering if anyone can clear up the Weirdboy powers where it states the "Unit" takes the S? Hit at AP?, depending on the ability rolled. Does this mean the entire unit, or that one model in the unit would take the result rolled on the table. I don't have the table in front of me so I can quote directly. Any support would be appreciated!

Hey that was a nice review, but i was wondering, why are the storm boyz soooo good?
They move very fast considering they are not in a vehicle, but if your moving that fast, you have to be awesome in CC... Are these storm boyz awesome at CC? I know that slugga boyz are very good in a trukk because they can get to enemy lines pretty quickly without dying and they get 4 attacks each on the charge and are only 6 points each. But Storm Boyz? Do they have heaps attacks like slugga boyz and are they a;ot more xpensive?

Why would you choose Storm Boyz over 12 sluggas in a trukk in some situations? Couls someone please explain

This thread is 5 months old! Please look at the dates before replying!!!!

BYE