Hey all,

I was wondering if it was legal to put my Raptors on the larger Termie/Possessed bases as those chunks of metal keep deciding to fall over and due to the lovely fragile nature of their limbs tend to get borked during an average game.(Any kind of movement of gaming table and 2-4 go over)

I did a search but all I could find out was that the bases that came with the models are considered minimum correct? But is it far to go for max aswell? I know this would allow blast templates to have a field day but I'm not too pushed. Could even draw a circle or something but again not bothered. And yes I have tried the coin tricks but might try packing the base with green stuff if all else fails and I cant give it a bigger base.

BGB page 6, last sentence.

You can put a grot on a Wraithlords base, but can't put a wraithlord on a grot's.

As T-C stated, its in the book. Bigger is OK, smaller isn't.



good gaming

Ahh thanks lads. Sorry about the pointless thread then,Really gotta learn to check the rule book first. An entire section entitled "Models" yet somehow I missed it

Not a worry VC. None of us are perfect, or perfectly knowledgable. Thats why forums like this are good.

Sometimes we just don't see the forest.....

Thanks man, Now to throw a spanner in the works though. Do the entire squad have to be on the same base? I imagine they must but some of my guys are reasonably stable while others are utterly without balance. It doesn't say specifically that the entire squad must as it just talks about individual models but there is probably a requirement for uniformity.

One final thing,Is it possible to pile the bases up,IE glue the Raptor with the current small base be glued onto the bigger base.(Might paint the smaller base in the fire colour same as the flames at the bottom of the model)

I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. And no, you don't have to put them all on the same size base.

I have noticed that when I buy the new plastic terminators they come with both the small and big bases, so I am supposing either is okay.

- G

Ah thank you man. I'll end up putting them all on the same base, Only able to harvest so many from those unused possessed ,Will make things like Coherency and working out base to base combat easier after all,Though I think Ill be taking a beating from blast weapons

Thanks again Laserbait.

IF you don't want a lot of trouble just put washers onthe bottom with glue.

I use nickels instead of washers... that way I can honestly say my armies are worth something.

- G

GBF, is there any pics anywhere of your figs? I like the humorous humility tho, I am sure they look great.

What would you all say if I put 2 Termies in a 60mm base? I have about 100 of them, (traded/swapped blah blah) and did not have enough 40mm's. I have never used it in a tourney though(I am sure it would be illegal?!?) but my mates don't seem to mind. As soon as I can swap them for 2 on 40mm bases I do.(casualties!!)


Opinions/rules?

Insaniak-where are you?

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have noticed that when I buy the new plastic terminators they come with both the small and big bases, so I am supposing either is okay.

No. The new Terminators are supplied with 40mm bases. The teleport homer that comes in the box is supplied with a 25mm base. Just because they come in the same box doesn't mean that the model is supplied with both size bases.

akira5665 wrote:What would you all say if I put 2 Termies in a 60mm base?

From similar discussions I've seen over the last couple of years, it would seem that some people object to this sort of thing as it is not specifically allowed by the rules.

Others feel that if it's ok for Imperial Guard, it's ok for everyone else.

It does have a slight impact on how the model works (more vulnerable to templates, less vulnerable to blasts, different dynamics in close combat, wider footprint for deepstriking... most of which are no different to what would happen with single models on larger bases anyway), but so long as both players are aware that the models are seperate and just happen to be sharing a base, they function just fine.

I have never used it in a tourney though(I am sure it would be illegal?!?)

There were some pics floating around online a couple of years ago of an Eldar GT army from the US that had all of the Aspect Warriors mounted 3 to a 60mm base. Nobody seemed to have any real objection to it in that instance.

@ insaniak-Thanks for the interp. I wasn't too sure about those other aspects and how they influence DS and H2H.

Will prob mothball/display. Plenty of others to use!

This actually brings up a strange question I've never gotten a good answer for. I have tons of older terminators that all came with the small round slotta bases, but now the new ones all use those huge bases. Does this mean I have to rebase my termies, or can I stick with the one they came with?

uatu13 wrote:This actually brings up a strange question I've never gotten a good answer for. I have tons of older terminators that all came with the small round slotta bases, but now the new ones all use those huge bases. Does this mean I have to rebase my termies, or can I stick with the one they came with?

It is disputed. Some players say if the model was supplied with the 25mm base, you can use the 25mm base. Others say that as the new models are supplied with the 40mm base, you must swap all your terminators to the 40mm base.

I have about 40 old terminators, a lot from the Space Hulk game, that I will not rebase, partly because the 40mm base does not fit the Space Hulk corridors.

There are advantages and disadvantages to base size so I see no reason to insist on the large base.

Kilkrazy wrote:It is disputed. Some players say if the model was supplied with the 25mm base, you can use the 25mm base. Others say that as the new models are supplied with the 40mm base, you must swap all your terminators to the 40mm base.

It shouldn't be disputed as the rules are actually quite clear. From page 6 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:

Games Workshop miniatures are usually supplied with a base and this should be viewed as the minimum size base they can be mounted on...

It's even clearer if you phrase it in the singular tense:

A Games Workshop miniature is usually supplied with a base and this should be viewed as the minimum size base it can be mounted on...

No ambiguity whatsoever. It doesn't matter what size base some other model came supplied with, it's the base that particular model came with that matters.

Hey Ghaz. Pretty clear/unclear, sorry Sir. (Maybe I cannot read properly either! )

So, if I read you correctly, the base the figure was supplied with is the 'legal' one?

Could that be abused, in that I say ALL of the Termies I have are older, and have 25mm bases? ?

It really makes a big difference to Deep -Striking is all.

There are a lot more people who know the rules better than me, although I am still re-reading my BGB for those 'out of the way' rulings.

Thanks for any help.

Doesn't matter if someone thinks it's 'abusive' or not because those are the rules. As has been pointed out, the smaller 25mm bases when Deep Striking are easier to get under a Blast Marker. The perceived advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

Fair enough. OTOH, If you were that 'y that you went and ripped off your 40mm bases and replaced them with 25's, then ONYA MATE!!

I wouldn't do it, but I bet there are those out there who would.......

Kilkrazy wrote:

uatu13 wrote:This actually brings up a strange question I've never gotten a good answer for. I have tons of older terminators that all came with the small round slotta bases, but now the new ones all use those huge bases. Does this mean I have to rebase my termies, or can I stick with the one they came with?

It is disputed. Some players say if the model was supplied with the 25mm base, you can use the 25mm base. Others say that as the new models are supplied with the 40mm base, you must swap all your terminators to the 40mm base.

The crux of the matter lies in that, metal termies are still being produced, and those still come with 25mm bases. Plastic termies also come with a set of 25mm bases.

So by GW's own rules, you may supply any terminator with a 25mm bases as its minimum, and make it larger from there.

Hellfury wrote:So by GW's own rules, you may supply any terminator with a 25mm bases as its minimum, and make it larger from there.

No because GW supplies the bases with the kit, not you. So only the older metal models that come from GW with the 25mm base may be placed on a 25mm base as those are the only ones supplied with that base size.

Ghaz wrote.

It shouldn't be disputed as the rules are actually quite clear. From page 6 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:


Games Workshop miniatures are usually supplied with a base and this should be viewed as the minimum size base they can be mounted on...

It's even clearer if you phrase it in the singular tense:


A Games Workshop miniature is usually supplied with a base and this should be viewed as the minimum size base it can be mounted on...

No ambiguity whatsoever. It doesn't matter what size base some other model came supplied with, it's the base that particular model came with that matters.

I have never read that page till today. Thanks Ghaz.

Ghaz wrote:

Hellfury wrote:So by GW's own rules, you may supply any terminator with a 25mm bases as its minimum, and make it larger from there.

No because GW supplies the bases with the kit, not you.

Yes, GW does supply the bases with the kit and not me. Bad wording on my part there.

Ghaz wrote:So only the older metal models that come from GW with the 25mm base may be placed on a 25mm base as those are the only ones supplied with that base size.

Incorrect.

Not only are the older metal termies supplied in their packaging with 25mm bases by GW, but so are the newer plastic loyalist termie boxes as well. (I am not sure about the new plastic chaos termies though, I havent picked up any boxes of those yet)

So you may, by GW's own rules stated earlier in this thread, in fact, base the newer plastics on 25mm bases. (which is kind of silly, as termies dont fit well on 25mm bases at all, but thats not the point)

Two questions:

What do you do with a model that doesn't come with a base? For instance I used the Greater Demon of Nurgle from Forgeworld as a generic greater demon and no one ever complains. He is sitting on the base for the Lord of the Rings dragon model because it is the only base GW makes that is big enough for him. What size base should I use though to make him 'legal'.

Is there a limit to how much you can size up a base? I could put guardsman on massive 3 inch bases and cover the board with them with a minimum ammount of guardsmen. This goes along with the problem of the guy using drop pods to cover the middle of the board and hide behind them. There has to be a limit to this kind of thing.

Cogito

The rules don't have answers to either of your questions.

Hellfury wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Hellfury wrote:So by GW's own rules, you may supply any terminator with a 25mm bases as its minimum, and make it larger from there.

No because GW supplies the bases with the kit, not you.

Yes, GW does supply the bases with the kit and not me. Bad wording on my part there.

Ghaz wrote:So only the older metal models that come from GW with the 25mm base may be placed on a 25mm base as those are the only ones supplied with that base size.

Incorrect.

Not only are the older metal termies supplied in their packaging with 25mm bases by GW, but so are the newer plastic loyalist termie boxes as well. (I am not sure about the new plastic chaos termies though, I havent picked up any boxes of those yet)

So you may, by GW's own rules stated earlier in this thread, in fact, base the newer plastics on 25mm bases. (which is kind of silly, as termies dont fit well on 25mm bases at all, but thats not the point)

No. You're mistaking the bases supplied with the teleport homer as being supplied for the terminators as well. They're not. Just because they both come in the same box does not mean the bases can be freely interchanged between the models

Ghaz wrote:No. You're mistaking the bases supplied with the teleport homer as being supplied for the terminators as well.

Would you care to illustrate where GW has stated that the 25 mm base is intended for use with the teleport homer, or are you simply assuming that it is?

Just to throw a further spanner into the works, none of my Plastic Termie boxes I've bought, loyalist or otherwise, came with ANY 25mm bases.

Buoyancy wrote:

Ghaz wrote:No. You're mistaking the bases supplied with the teleport homer as being supplied for the terminators as well.

Would you care to illustrate where GW has stated that the 25 mm base is intended for use with the teleport homer, or are you simply assuming that it is?

Show me a picture of the new Terminators on a 25mm base. You're the one who's making assumptions that the 25mm bases are supplied for the Terminators with no evidence.

Ghaz wrote:Show me a picture of the new Terminators on a 25mm base. You're the one who's making assumptions that the 25mm bases are supplied for the Terminators with no evidence.

Really? I'm the one making assumptions when I'm the one who's actually following the rules? I don't have to provide you with any evidence beyond what has already been provided in this thread. The rules state that you may use the bases provided with the models. A 25 mm base is provided with the terminator model, and there is absolutely no further information from GW on what size of base to use. It is your claim that this base belongs to the teleport homer, and as such, you must supply the evidence that this is true. Your complete failure to provide any evidence, only indicates that no such evidence exists. Please avoid creating arguments that are purely based on what your imagination _thinks_ that the rules are, instead of how the rules are actually written.

I would actually go so far as to bet that GW included the 25mm base 'for the teleport homer' specifically to provide a loop hole in their own rules, so people who previously based their termies on 25mms can continue to do so.

Seems uncharacteristic, but never put it past GW to go out of their way to make marine players happy.

Buoyancy wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Show me a picture of the new Terminators on a 25mm base. You're the one who's making assumptions that the 25mm bases are supplied for the Terminators with no evidence.

Really? I'm the one making assumptions when I'm the one who's actually following the rules? I don't have to provide you with any evidence beyond what has already been provided in this thread. The rules state that you may use the bases provided with the models. A 25 mm base is provided with the terminator model, and there is absolutely no further information from GW on what size of base to use. It is your claim that this base belongs to the teleport homer, and as such, you must supply the evidence that this is true. Your complete failure to provide any evidence, only indicates that no such evidence exists. Please avoid creating arguments that are purely based on what your imagination _thinks_ that the rules are, instead of how the rules are actually written.

He's kind of gotcha there Ghaz. Anything else would have to rely on...intent

So how do we know what size base any miniature is supplied with then? At least I have evidence to support my claims. What does he have? Absolutely nothing.

So how do we know what size base any miniature is supplied with then?

It comes with it?

Just because it 'comes with it' doesn't mean it's the base 'supplied for it'

It doesn't need to be "supplied for" it, only "supplied with" it, as per pg 6 of the rulebook.

Sooooo, with the box of plastic terminators, how many 25mm bases are provided?

And how many larger bases?

You can mix them. So you shouldn't care about the number.

Oh, btw:
My St.Celestine came with 1 40mm and 5 25mm bases.
I field her as Canoness anyway, so I don't mind, but I do not know what made GW put 5 different sized bases into my blister...

yes you should care.
Was there 5 of the larger bases? maybe 4 or less of the smaller bases?
It is relevant

tegeus-Cromis wrote:It doesn't need to be "supplied for" it, only "supplied with" it, as per pg 6 of the rulebook.

And again, just because it came in the same box still doesn't mean the model was 'supplied with' that base. It was 'supplied with' the other model in the box that goes on that size base. If it hadn't been for that other model, then it would not have been supplied.

vogelfrei wrote:You can mix them. So you shouldn't care about the number.

And what gives you the idea that you can mix them? I see nothing that says that if a set comes with different bases for different models then you can choose either type of base for a particular model. It still boils down to one size base was supplied for one type of models while another size base was supplied for the other type of models.

Man, I tried to read what you said Ghaz, and I think I lost a few brain cells. Excellent popcorn material though.

The new plastic Terminators are 'supplied with' 40mm bases.

Teleport homers are 'supplied with' 25mm bases.

Just because they all come in one set doesn't mean that Terminators are 'supplied with' 25mm bases or that teleport homers are 'supplied with' 40mm bases. Each type of model is 'supplied with' the appropriate size base.

Terminators are supplied with 40mm bases.

Terminators are supplied with 25mm bases.

Teleport homers are supplied with 40mm bases.

Teleport homers are supplied with 25mm bases.

Terminators are supplied with teleport homers.

Teleport homers are supplied with Terminators.

40mm bases are supplied with 25mm bases.

25mm bases are supplied with 40mm bases.

All these statements are true of the Terminator box set by our everyday definition of "supplied with." If you believe the rules set uses another, more specific definition of it, well, page and para, please.

And once again, just because they all come in the same box does not mean that they are supplied with or for that particular model.

"Comes in the same box" is not the same thing as "Supplied with".

Actually, it is.

Skyth has a point there. Realistically you can tell the two from the cover, but again it infers a bit of intent.

Ghaz wrote:So how do we know what size base any miniature is supplied with then? At least I have evidence to support my claims.

No, you don't have any evidence whatsoever, and haven't done anything other than assert that terminators are not supplied with the bases that come in their packaging. Unsupported assertions are not evidence. They are no more useful than making random statements from your imagination.

skyth wrote:Actually, it is.

Actually, no it's not. The fact the two base sizes come in the same box doesn't mean the base sizes are interchangeable. If that were so, then the Necron Destroyers supplied that come in the Necron battle force could use 25mm bases since those bases come with the model. Granted, Warriors are also supplied as well as are 40mm bases.... Yet, no one would expect to see Necron Warriors using a 40mm base and a Destroyer using a 25mm base, now would they?

How is the battleforce a different case then the terminators? They can use either base! HOORAY!

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

skyth wrote:Actually, it is.

Actually, no it's not. The fact the two base sizes come in the same box doesn't mean the base sizes are interchangeable. If that were so, then the Necron Destroyers supplied that come in the Necron battle force could use 25mm bases since those bases come with the model. Granted, Warriors are also supplied as well as are 40mm bases.... Yet, no one would expect to see Necron Warriors using a 40mm base and a Destroyer using a 25mm base, now would they?

If it comes with the model in some way, shape, or form, it is supplied with the model. Basic definition of the term.

I cannot believe that this thread has gone for this long.

Ladz-the point is moot. RAI vs RAW with model packs. And I thought that the Codicies were hard enough, now we have to talk about

INTENT when discussing packaging............Jeeeeeeeez gimme a break.

Use whatever base you want.

Somehow I didn't think the new terminators woulf fit on a 25mm base. Aren't they all holding a wide legged stance?

I think I'll 'get creative' and start using US pennies for bases.

Of course that will mean modeling all my figs hopping on one foot.......

It seems the difference in interpreting the rules is in the definition of the word with. Simply because the terminator box comes with a 25mm base, can the terminators be modeled on them?

Relevant definition from dictionary.com:

1. accompanied by; accompanying

The rules state "the miniatures are supplied with a base". Looking at the contents of the box, it seems the terminator miniatures are supplied accompanied by 40 mm bases and the teleport homer is accompanied by a 25 mm base. This notion is evidenced here .

Spif, everything that comes in the box is "accompanying" everything else that comes in the box. When you buy a Happy Meal from McD's, no one expects you to dunk the toy in the sauce, but it doesn't mean the toy wasn't "supplied with" it.

Could you not use the same interpretation to place Crisis suits on the bases for gun drones with which they are bundled? I believe it says in the rule that they are "supplied with a base". This suggests that there is indeed one sized base intended for each miniature in the box. Otherwise a claim could be made that any item in the box is a "base" for the model if you fix the two together..

skyth wrote:If it comes with the model in some way, shape, or form, it is supplied with the model. Basic definition of the term.

Wrong. It "came with" the model in the same box, but it was not "supplied with" the base because it is meant for another model in the boxed set. Once again, "came with" and "supplied with" are not the same thing and are not interchangable terms.

Buoyancy wrote:

Ghaz wrote:So how do we know what size base any miniature is supplied with then? At least I have evidence to support my claims.

No, you don't have any evidence whatsoever, and haven't done anything other than assert that terminators are not supplied with the bases that come in their packaging. Unsupported assertions are not evidence. They are no more useful than making random statements from your imagination.

I have a lot more evidence then you have, that's for sure. I have pictures from GW showing the new Terminators on the 40mm bases showing me that GW intended for these bases to be used with the terminator models. What do you have? Nothing except a false claim that "comes with" and "supplied with" means the same thing. They are not. You don't have a single picture or shred of evidence, intended or otherwise to back up your position.

LOL, judging by the 2-page argument there isn't any set rule about which termie base sizes are correct to use for the metal guys.

Ghaz wrote:I have a lot more evidence then you have, that's for sure. I have pictures from GW showing the new Terminators on the 40mm bases showing me that GW intended for these bases to be used with the terminator models.

Really? Where are these supposed pictures? Since you haven't supplied any pictures, I'm simply going to assume that you are lying about what the pictures show. That is, after all, the only reasonable thing to do when dealing with somebody who thinks that "supplied with" has a different meaning than "comes in the same packaging".

What do you have? Nothing except a false claim that "comes with" and "supplied with" means the same thing. They are not.

Is some language other than English your first language Ghaz? I certainly hope so, because otherwise you are one of the most incredibly idiotic people I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with on the internet. Your interpretations of the rules are not, and never will be, the rules themselves. Your inability to understand basic English is amazing.

Ghaz, don't be coy. Tell us what you think "supplied with" means, in that case, and explain your basis for believing so.

And yet again, you've yet to prove that just because there's another model in the box that uses a different size base then the base was supplied for any and all models in that box. That is patently false. The 25mm bases in the Terminator box were supplied with the teleport homer, not the Terminators. Without the teleport homer, there would not have been any 25mm bases in the box at all. Therefore the teleport homer is the model that was supplied with the 25mm bases, not the Terminators. Just because they happen to all come in one box doesn't mean that a model was supplied with whatever size base you can dig out of the box.

What about the battleforce deals for each army? Each box comes with models and is supplied with various base sizes. Does this mean the base sizes are interchangeable? What about the poor chump that purchases the models separately and that were only supplied with one base size. How can YOU, the opponent, tell the difference?

I purchased two Tyranid army boxes when they came out. Does that mean I can put my winged Tyrant on a 25mm base? How bout those Carnis? Sweet!

Just out of curiosity, how would you handle a purchased Necron Destroyer that was "supplied with" both a 40mm clear skimmer base AND a sprue of 25mm bases? Would you allow your opponent to use the 25mm base? What if he told you all 15 of his Destroyers came that way? And his 9 Heavy Destroyers? And his C'tan?

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, you've yet to prove that just because there's another model in the box that uses a different size base then the base was supplied for any and all models in that box. That is patently false. The 25mm bases in the Terminator box were supplied with the teleport homer, not the Terminators. Without the teleport homer, there would not have been any 25mm bases in the box at all. Therefore the teleport homer is the model that was supplied with the 25mm bases, not the Terminators. Just because they happen to all come in one box doesn't mean that a model was supplied with whatever size base you can dig out of the box.

We shall call this new way of looking at packaging as "AAI", "Assembled as Intended" instead of the more literal "AAS" or "Assembled as Supplied".

The terminators are intended to be based on the 40 mm bases, but are supplied with 40 and 25 mm bases. With one homer per box, why do they include four 25 mm bases in each box?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Ghaz, don't be coy. Tell us what you think "supplied with" means, in that case, and explain your basis for believing so.

I'll repeat...

If the box comes with 4 25mm bases and 5 40mms, I'd say it comes with 4 25s because that's how many of those are made on a sprue. I need to check my box of unassembled termies at home. I'm curious.

Mannahnin wrote:If the box comes with 4 25mm bases and 5 40mms, I'd say it comes with 4 25s because that's how many of those are made on a sprue. I need to check my box of unassembled termies at home. I'm curious.

AAI = yes they are made 4 on a sprue (with a little four way cross connecting them).

It was a nice perk to get a few free bases to put some early edition IG guys on for ratlings ince they are so small.

Buoyancy wrote:

Really? Where are these supposed pictures? Since you haven't supplied any pictures, I'm simply going to assume that you are lying about what the pictures show. That is, after all, the only reasonable thing to do when dealing with somebody who thinks that "supplied with" has a different meaning than "comes in the same packaging".

There's already a picture linked in the thread. Maybe you should consider actually reading or thinking before making ridiculous comments.

As far as I can tell you don't understand the concept of association, or what the word with means. I think there's sufficient argument in the thread, based on the rules and whats provided in the box, that you should be required to put a terminator on a 40mm base.

What you're not grasping is that, while it is apparently intended to base loyalist termies on 40mm bases, by the actual rules, you are allowed to base them on 25mm or 40mm (As both bases are supplied with the models).

skyth wrote:What you're not grasping is that, while it is apparently intended to base loyalist termies on 40mm bases, by the actual rules, you are allowed to base them on 25mm or 40mm (As both bases are supplied with the models).

Wonderful!!! Then MY winged Tyrants and Carnifexes can based on 25mm bases since those bases were supplied with the army set I purchased from GW. Mind you, those of you who may have purchased your Tyrants and Carnifexes separately are only permitted to use the 40mm bases. Guess y'all just SOL....


Y'all just ignore my scenarios as previously posted. As Ghaz has laboriously pointed out, just because two types of models are in a box and two types of bases are supplied in the same box doesn't mean the bases can be used interchangeably. Otherwise, I'm well within my right to base all of my Tyranid models on 25mm bases, including the TMCs.

Curious thought: What about those models who's bases where inadvertently not delivered? What base size is used then?

Apply Ochman's Razor to the debate: Y'all's concept makes for a much more difficult implementation of the rules (see above and several of my previous posts) while Ghaz's is rather simple to implement. When in doubt, go with the simpler implementation.

Technically, by the rules, your carnifexes are allowed to be on 25mm bases. Tyrants don't come in the battleforces, so you're stuck with the 60mm for them

Models that are shipped without a base can use any size base as any size>nothing.

The interpretation that either the 40 mm or 25 mm base can be used on the models blatantly violates the rules in the BGB.

The fact that it says "miniatures are usually supplied with A base" would suggest that there is in fact one intended base. And it is not anything that comes in the box. There is a base in the box that GW intends for use with the miniature. Typically these items scale with the miniatures they correspond to.

I have yet to see a logical argument against this claim. Stating that everything in the box is supplied with the miniature may be true, but it does not appear to meet the full criteria set up in the definition.

Or it suggests that usually minis are usually supplied with 'a base'...But they are not always supplied with 'a base' and could possibly be supplied with no base, or multiple bases.

Again, you are making an intent argument rather than a RAW argument.

The only thing RAW states is that they are supplied with "a base" ... "usually" this means that a single base size should be associated with a miniature. The no base or possibly multiple base conditions are not outlined by RAW which are permissive if I am not mistaken.

Ghaz:

And yet again, you've yet to prove that just because there's another model in the box that uses a different size base then the base was supplied for any and all models in that box.

And yet again you illegitimately substitute "for" instead of "with."

The 25mm bases in the Terminator box were supplied with the teleport homer, not the Terminators. Without the teleport homer, there would not have been any 25mm bases in the box at all. Therefore the teleport homer is the model that was supplied with the 25mm bases, not the Terminators. Just because they happen to all come in one box doesn't mean that a model was supplied with whatever size base you can dig out of the box.

So let me ask again: what is your definition of "supplied with"?

TGA: As skyth has said, technically, you can indeed base your carnies on small bases.

Don't confuse what the rules say with what we'd actually do, BTW. This is a discussion of what the BGB allows and disallows, not what we personally do.

Spif:

The fact that it says "miniatures are usually supplied with A base" would suggest that there is in fact one intended base. And it is not anything that comes in the box.

"Miniatures are usually supplied with a base" leaves open the possibility that they may come with more than one base or with no bases. The truth is that the rules don't tell us what to do when this is the case.

And yet again, it makes no difference if it's "for" or "with". The model is only supplied with one size base because that is the base it is meant to be on.

Also, you've utterly failed to to prove that a miniature is "supplied with" a base just because it happens to come in the same box. "Comes with" and "Supplied with" are two totally different phrases with different meanings. When you "supply" a base for a miniature, it's because it's meant for that miniature. Just because it "came" in the same box as that miniature doesn't mean that it was "supplied" with or for that miniature if there is another miniature in the box it was "supplied" for or with.

Terminators are supplied with 40mm bases.

Teleport Homers are supplied with 25mm bases.

Terminators and teleport homers all come in one box with both 25mm and 40mm bases, but that does not mean that they're supplied with all of those bases. They are only supplied with the bases they would have come with if they were available by themselves.

In your reading, who is being supplied, the customer or the miniature? I read it as "miniatures are usually supplied [to the customer] with a base." In your reading, it seems that the miniature is "supplied with a base" in the same sense that a person going to the supermarket is supplied with groceries. Is this an accurate summation of your stand, or am I being unfair? I want to clarify this before going further.

@TheGreatAvatar:
Only the old Models, wich actually were bought with a 25mm base in a box!

@Ghaz:
Do you have anything, wich proves your statment on what is supplied with wich base?
I agree with your overall point, but you actually mix up RAW and RAI and someone could possibly consider you as an very ignorant person...maybe it's just me (and maybe some of the others) talking about RAW and you about RAI...

Laserbait wrote:
I think I'll 'get creative' and start using US pennies for bases.

As long as you found those pennies in the box and find a playgroup where people make no difference between 'bases' and 'money'.
Maybe you could convert a 23$note into an assault cannon.

Douchebaggery abound in this thread! Congrats!

tegeus-Cromis wrote: "miniatures are usually supplied [to the customer] with a base." In your reading, it seems that the miniature is "supplied with a base"

The subject of the sentence is miniature. I think they are the ones being supplied bases. Where the models and bases end up going is not really the point.

So if I stick a carnifex on a 25mm base, haven't I just supplied it with a 25mm base?

Unfortunately, the RAW will not tell you which base is for which model, only that the model is usually supplied with a base. No matter which set you buy, if there are multiple models and multiple bases, it appears players have to use their discretion to determine which bases are for which models. With no clear instructions given, players must use intuition to decide.

Evidence such as the fact that there are 5 40mm bases and 5 terminators, but only 4 25mm bases, would seem to imply that the 40mm bases are the bases that were supplied with the terminators and the 25mm bases were supplied with the teleport homer. The picture of the terminator squad on the GW website would further support this intuition. But again, without explicit directions, all we can do during assembly is guess which bases were supplied with which models.

The definition of supplied doesn't offer much more guidance. It is true that in the terminator box there are multiple bases and models that all the models and bases have been supplied with in that box. A better question to ask is if there were no terminators in this box, would there be 40mm bases.

The question is not what the RAW convey. The RAW convey that the model was probably provided with a base. The question is how do we determine which base to use on that model. If there are multiple types of bases in a box and no instructions on which base is for which model, it is a question for interpretation which pairing to use. However, there are strong pieces of evidence for what the makers intended; again number of bases to models and pictures on GW website.

As a player, it is your right to dismiss these pieces of evidence as attempts to interpret RAI and not as RAW, but you shouldn't get upset when others choose not to. Unlike other RAI questions, there's solid evidence that points toward which bases are for which models.

Like any other ambiguous problem that presents itself, Tournament and House rules will have to make a decision on this matter. Just don't get upset if your army is ruled inelligible because you got cute with your bases and the judges don't buy your arguments.

lifeafter wrote:As a player, it is your right to dismiss these pieces of evidence as attempts to interpret RAI and not as RAW, but you shouldn't get upset when others choose not to. Unlike other RAI questions, there's solid evidence that points toward which bases are for which models.

Actually, seeing as how this particular subforum is supposed to be purely about RAW, it's perfectly reasonable to get upset when somebody decides to waste your time by bringing up irrelevant information about the intent of the rules.

Actually, seeing as how this particular subforum is supposed to be purely about RAW, it's perfectly reasonable to get upset when somebody decides to waste your time by bringing up irrelevant information about the intent of the rules.

Until this last response, I have to admit that I didn't quite understand what your argument was. I thought it was a valid point about how different bases were supplied with different models. I now understand that you can put whatever base you want on a model as long as it was in the same box because "somebody decides to waste your time by bringing up irrelevant information about the intent of the rules."

Although I see the merit in your argument, allow me to put forth this counter argument: the RAW don't necessarily permit you to put any base that comes in the same box as a particular model on that model. There are no specific directions for which base is given to which model in most sets with multiple types of bases and models. Therefore a player has to use some means other than specific, written directions to determine which models get which bases. Some of these other means can include looking at pictures of the models and analyzing the ratio of bases to models. Because there is an element of discretion involved, Tournament Judges and Gaming Locations may decide to make a ruling on this. Though putting a model on a smaller base if it was included in the same box may not be against the RAW, Tournament Judges and Gaming Locations may not agree with your interpretation based off of evidence of RAI. If you've read this post before such an instance happens, hopefully their decision will come as less of a shock.

I would also like to further state that this sub-forum is not immune to points of RAI. There are numerous anecdotes which illustrate times when RAW isn't enough to make a judgement call. If it was 40k You Make The Call Only With Raw, none of my terminators on their 25mm bases would be able to have their 5+ invul and fire heavy weapons and move at the same time.

What Buoyancy said. Let's be honest, who here would actually mount new Termies on 25mm bases, or carnifexes for that matter? I certainly wouldn't, because there is more to being an opponent who people will want to play against than simply following the letter of the rules. What we're talking about, however, is what the rules say, not what our individual consciences (and gaming buddies/tourney organisers!) will allow us to do.

I might mount termies on 25mm bases, to go with my existing termies. Otherwise this thread has become an interetsing "how many angels on the head of a pin," argument.

I am sure if 40mm bases were supplied with terminators orginally when they were first produced, this sort of argument wouldnt occur.

But there are still many people who do infact have older termies based on 25mm bases, both plastic and metal.

Should the older figs be illegitimized because newer plastic termies are better posed on 40mm bases?

Should the player with older termies be forced to rebase their figs on 40mm bases?

Should the player who owns older 25mm based figs be forced to make his army look rather incoherent if he wants to buy more termies for his army and base them on 40mm bases?

Its a problem with consistency. My opinion is that GW attempted (and failed) to address this issue of consistency with older models with the rule quoted earlier in this thread.

I will agree with Lifeafter regarding how this should be solved on a case by case basis, but the problem is that people aren't "being cute" by basing their termies on 25mm bases, they are doing it because older termies were supplied with such bases, as are newer termies.

But really this thread is going nowhere. Arguing RAI in the face of RAW are two incompatible debates.

RAI holds more logic here (and in most other cases) than does GW's rather pitiful attempt at RAW.

Just so I can leave this thread and never return, I will say that I believe that people can base their termies on 25mm bases just as much as they can base them on 40mm bases due to the models being supplied with both size bases in the plastic box. However, I do think that GW intended for players to base them on 40mm bases.

But I will support people who feel the need to base their termies on 25mm bases if for no other reason than a strict adherence to RAW and how termies are historically supplied with 25mm bases.

If I had a bunch of old terminators (which I do) and added a bunch of new termintors I would probably mount the new termies on 25mm bases to match, or it would all look stupid. If some player objected and said I should have put them on 40mm bases I would admit he was right and peg him as a a-hole.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:So if I stick a carnifex on a 25mm base, haven't I just supplied it with a 25mm base?

You have not supplied the miniature with anything. The base for the miniature was supplied for you by GW. As you yourself stated, the carnifex was "stuck" on the base.

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume miniatures are supplied with bases even before they are modeled.

If the model is provided with more than one base (or none) RAW do not permit you to choose whatever base you wish (or use no base, or fix the miniature to a piece of lint, penny, or sprue).

The rules do not say "miniatures are usually supplied with several bases, and you can use the smallest of these bases as the minimum size"

If RAW does not specify what is allowable, I do not see any recourse other than to use GW's intent. I think this is an obvious flaw on GW's part in wording the rules (honestly, who sets up a ruling starting with usually and does not elaborate on all possible cases). Contrary to what some people are suggesting, the purpose of this forum is to go beyond RAW and see how people typically play the game.

Spif:

You have not supplied the miniature with anything. The base for the miniature was supplied for you by GW.

Earlier you said that "miniatures" was the subject of the sentence, and that "miniatures are usually supplied with a base" meant that someone was giving a base to the miniature. Where does GW enter into the equation? Does it ever state who is to supply the miniature with a base?

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume miniatures are supplied with bases even before they are modeled.

I'm going to remain securely on the ground and ask you what you base this assumption on.

If the model is provided with more than one base (or none) RAW do not permit you to choose whatever base you wish (or use no base, or fix the miniature to a piece of lint, penny, or sprue).

The rules do not say "miniatures are usually supplied with several bases, and you can use the smallest of these bases as the minimum size"

That's true. Like I said, the ruels simply do not tell you what to do in this case.

If RAW does not specify what is allowable, I do not see any recourse other than to use GW's intent. I think this is an obvious flaw on GW's part in wording the rules (honestly, who sets up a ruling starting with usually and does not elaborate on all possible cases). Contrary to what some people are suggesting, the purpose of this forum is to go beyond RAW and see how people typically play the game.

Then there is little point to this thread now (althoguh the original question did have a point), because it is absobloodylutely obvious how most people play it.

@ Tegus.

Then there is little point to this thread now (althoguh the original question did have a point), because it is absobloodylutely obvious how most people play it.

I agree. 2 pages too long.

Okay, I think this conversation has just about run its course (and then some).