Wait, 5th edition will be out by the summer?

That sounds awesome. I am very excited about the mention of chaos drop pods. I can only imagine the utter glee I will have drop podding squads of 1000 Sons with their AP3 bolter fire. Good times.

Darrian

Darrian13 wrote:That sounds awesome. I am very excited about the mention of chaos drop pods. I can only imagine the utter glee I will have drop podding squads of 1000 Sons with their AP3 bolter fire. Good times.

Darrian

Thousand Sons...? They are SOOOO cheesey!

Hah! I'm the first...EVER... to say that.

ender502

No way, dude. Don't forget that Pete Haines was first with, "Two wounds with plenty going for it has an army." Or something like that.

well that sounds very promising.....

I'm really looking forward to interesting missions which are not apocalypse...wait, does that mean that I should stop building so many Ork HQs?

now, iff you'll excuse for a moment, I have to drool over my thoguhts....hmmm Ork Thunderhawk

Iorek, you do know that they no longer have two wounds, right?

Darrian

They don't? Dammit, I shall have to go on some sort of ironic rant about how GW have now totally invalidated my entire army, that was lovingly hand built using criminally overpriced miniatures and the sweat of many millions of unpaid child labourers. The villains!

Oh, someone has said that kind of thing before..?

Sounds pretty nifty. 5th in early summer is fine by me.

I'll certainly buy both the plastic Valkyrie and maybe the Thunderhawk, although I think I have enough Stormtroopers for now.

There will be a plastic SM drop pod that can also be a chaos deathclaw (I think that’s what it’s called).

Oh jeez. I sure hope not. Chaos dreadclaws =/= SM drop pods! Dreadclaws have a completely different deployment mechanism due to their primary function as boarding craft for ship-to-ship space combat. I am not looking forward to the dreadclaw being retconned into a SM drop pod with spikes.

*laughs at thread*

I don't understand why 40k can't have fun supplements like CF, Apoc and now Planestrike (which are awesome) but still be a tournament style game. Why not just do a tournament or competive play supplement/guidlines, covering tourneys and official league play. I'm lazy and really want one stop shopping.

The core rules 'are' the competitive/tourney and supplements like Cities of Death, APOC, and the rumored Planetstrike are the 'fun' elements meant to appeal to veteran gamers.

only one word can express my feelings at this news...

GLEE!!!

Mine is "Meh."

Based on this extravagant preview, I'm going to mirror my Apocalypse comments. I appreciate the intent, but with the 40k rules as uninteresting as they are, add-ons don't add much.

6th can't come soon enough.

@dietrich: I've been playing 40k for twelve years now so I think that qualifies me to be a "veteran". When I say "tournament rules" or "official play" I'm not talking about the rules to move, shoot or even force org. I'm talking about a comprehensive set of rules for how you conduct an official 40k tournament, like steamroller for WM. I like hover tanks and jet bikes way more than funky steam bots.

For the record I know plenty of guys who have played much longer than me who love competitve play, and aparently so do many on this forum.

the new models sound coooooool (alas, prepare for several zillion copycat drop pod armies), but ruleswise, I'm guessing it will follow the Apocalyse general flying rules? - would seem odd to not do so.

More terrain... yes!! Can't wait.

BYE

And then maybe, just maybe, once they're done with this 5th Ed malarky, they can release a full campaign book with detailed campaign rules, maybe even with a 40K style set of Mighty Empires tiles!

BYE

wow, that was an unusual positve comment from H.B.M.C.

first a new ork book, now this? surely, the apocalypse can't be far....wait, we already got that last summer....

edit: I meant his first one....

As much as I think a plastic Valkyrie would be cool, I wish GW would send some to Tamiya or DML to teach them how to make model kit that fits together, and how to write that kit's instructions... I have visions of the Valkyrie being as much a pain as the landspeeders, just on a larger scale.

Jake

CptJake wrote:As much as I think a plastic Valkyrie would be cool, I wish GW would send some to Tamiya or DML to teach them how to make model kit that fits together, and how to write that kit's instructions... I have visions of the Valkyrie being as much a pain as the landspeeders, just on a larger scale.

Jake

I'll disagree. GW has made huge strides in recent years in terms of vehicle assembly. The new Rhino kits for example are clearly superior to most of the older vehicles in terms of fitting together right.

I think the Valkyrie won't be any worse to assemble than any other recent vehicle kit - probably on par with the Devilfish or Hammerhead.

I'm looking forward to the terrain too. A nice set of bunkers is a necessity for many scenarios.

Plastic Kasrkins and Valkyries! I am sold!

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Plastic Drop Pods (finally!), Valk and Thunderhawk make me very happy. I for one love these expansion books, especially the rumors for Planetstrike I've bee reading.

dietrich wrote:The core rules 'are' the competitive/tourney and supplements like Cities of Death, APOC, and the rumored Planetstrike are the 'fun' elements meant to appeal to veteran gamers.

Considering the way COD cleared up a few ambiguous rules regarding terrain, I would gladly accept its ruleset (strategems/etc. optional) in official tournaments. Hell, even the strategems are pretty awesome in terms of competitive play, unlike the ridiculous flank march strategems in apoc.

As someone working on becoming an actual pilot and has been obsessed with all things aerospace my whole life, the planestrike stuff sounds too cool. Now if they could get THQ to do a sick Fighta Bommer sim based on it, I would be in dork heaven.

@stonefox: no argument here, think COD would be a great platform for a tournament system.

I'm hugely looking forward to plastic Valkyries, and would definitely buy at least 2. maybe 3, if the price were at least reasonable. My IG can always use a bit more mobility!

Darrian13 wrote:Iorek, you do know that they no longer have two wounds, right?

Darrian

Yeah. I was just making an (admittedly lame) joke. It's one of my favorite phrases; I can't seem to help myself.

Wait, did I almost miss a potential Dakka meta-argument?

*new GW rumours*

*gripe*

*implication for previous poster to stop playing the game if he doesn't like it*

*implication of below-average mental capacity, poor breeding*

*MODERATOR WARNING*

*hopeful counter argument*

*scorn and derision at previous poster's naivete*

*mention of squats*

*nobody plays squats LOL*


I must say though, if plastic Kasrkin come out and they look anything approaching decent then I will build a new army that will never see a playing table.

mauleed wrote:Wait, 5th edition will be out by the summer?

yes, didnt you know? Its been a rumor for a while now....

Turtle wrote:Wait, did I almost miss a potential Dakka meta-argument?

*new GW rumours*

*gripe*

*implication for previous poster to stop playing the game if he doesn't like it*

*implication of below-average mental capacity, poor breeding*

*MODERATOR WARNING*

*hopeful counter argument*

*scorn and derision at previous poster's naivete*

*mention of squats*

*nobody plays squats LOL*


I must say though, if plastic Kasrkin come out and they look anything approaching decent then I will build a new army that will never see a playing table.

Yeah? Well, you're a 12 year old!

I can't really say I'm interested, but a plastic Valk would be real nice. If it's lootable, of course.

New plastic Valks and Thunderhawks are super sexy, but we'll see if all that pans out. Hopefully the rumor of plastic Valhallans is true as well. Terrain is always good. Now if they'd just make a battlewagon...

If like COD: awesome.
If like Apocalypse: the expression 'lipstick on a pig' comes to mind.

Curious to see whether it'll be pre-planned for 5th edition or, like the rules from "Eye of Terror", be rendered void with the release of the new regime.

Looking forward to the valkyrie and plastic stormtroopers if it's true

While I appreciate any attempt by GW to expand their world, and I do like the Valkyrie and Kasrkin models, something about this doesn't sit right with me. There are several armies in the 40K background that are famous for lightning strikes, rapid insertion attacks, and flyers that would seem to be appropriate to this sourcebook- Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau for starters. Yet the only rumours we're hearing for it are for the human armies.

The issue is that SM, Eldar, DE, and Tau can already do something, while the IG can't do anything aside from using the Drop Troops Doctrine. Giving the IG a Valkyrie is a major step in making IG more competitive beyond a static gunline.

H.B.M.C one of the rumours is that all the extra stuff in the 4th ed book was going to be taken out, but rules for using Mighty Empires tiles for a campaign would be 5th, along with maybe some special tiles for 40k on a White Dwarf.

I love to get a few tiles with things like 'Hive City' and 'Radar Dome' and 'Space Port' and 'Marine Fortress' etc. for Mighty Empires. It would totally rock.

BYE

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

There will be a plastic SM drop pod that can also be a chaos deathclaw (I think that’s what it’s called).

Oh jeez. I sure hope not. Chaos dreadclaws =/= SM drop pods! Dreadclaws have a completely different deployment mechanism due to their primary function as boarding craft for ship-to-ship space combat. I am not looking forward to the dreadclaw being retconned into a SM drop pod with spikes.

So is this the first SM player complaining on how their codex is being changed? OOOOHHH I can wait until the SM codex gets nerfed like the CSM codex did.

Having seen the beating the Chaos Legions took, I can wait.

Vanilla and Trait Marines are going to take a beating and a half, I imagine.

I just hope the traits survive in some form, and that they at least allow for some non-codex chapter development (i.e., not having everyone be a good 5/10 follower)!

If anything, the fate of the traits will give us a glimpse of the fate of the doctrine system.

(It doesn't look good, does it?)

Alpharius wrote:I just hope the traits survive in some form, and that they at least allow for some non-codex chapter development (i.e., not having everyone be a good 5/10 follower)!

Are you kidding? Everyone follows the Codex Astartes now. Chaos and Orks now need 10 before they can get Heavy Weapons.

I guess in the end everyone decided that Gulliman was a pretty good author and that he might've been onto something when he wrote that tome of tactics, so they decided that they'd all follow it in one form or another.

BYE

I hear you, H.B.M.C., but I can dare to dream, right?

Seriously though, I too doubt that the ability to customize your force to any significant degree is going to survive the transition to 5th edition.

I bet we'll be saying good bye to the Psychic "phase" of 4th and be returning to the bad (i.e., lame, boring, unimaginative, etc.) Psychic power days of 3rd edition too...

Ugh.

Alpharius wrote:I just hope the traits survive in some form, and that they at least allow for some non-codex chapter development (i.e., not having everyone be a good 5/10 follower)!

I think Traits are completely dead and Combat Squads are going to be the order of the day.

If you want to play something other than Codex Astartes, you'll have the option of DA, BA, BT, SW, GK, and CSM...

Though, from the looks of things, I wouldn't be surprised to see Combat Squads grafted onto BT, GK, and SW. BT would have the best chances of fielding min/max-sized units of 5 SM +1 Scout, but then I could see GW making BT Scouts not count.

SM without Combat Squads for Troops? That's Heresy and Chaos!

(Gav, Jervis are you getting this?!?)

JohnHwangDD wrote:Though, from the looks of things, I wouldn't be surprised to see Combat Squads grafted onto BT, GK, and SW. BT would have the best chances of fielding min/max-sized units of 5 SM +1 Scout, but then I could see GW making BT Scouts not count.

It could be worse. Scouts in BT squads could be made into the weird quasi-life as Wargear with model rules like a few other things...

As much as I would like to see the Thunderhawk and Valkyrie, I feel much like Stormtrooper X does. Where is the Gork-damned Battlewagon? I know that there are more ork releases planned for later in 2008, but we can only pray that the Battlewagon is one of them, since there's been no real proof of it yet.

Granted, these are only rumors about the big flying vehicles, but 40K is just so frakking dominated by people playing Imperial forces that it's a wonder there's any war going on in the grim darkness of the far future.

I know Imperial stuff, especially marines, are a huge money-maker for GW. But if that's the only army that GW really wants to support, then I fear they are going to lose a lot of players. You can only play against another marine army and have a power armor bitch-slap fest so many times before you want to play against these horrible xenos forces that are heard about but never seen played...

Planetstrike sounds interesting in that it will break the rather 2 dimensional play style that 40K is in... Wonder how that's going to complicate things...

As an Ork player, I'm surprised you're unhappy. Didn't GW just give you guys a plastic Battlewagon that you can customize and Orkify to your heart's content?

Wasn't that a plastic Trukk?

Heh heh, wasn't the mechanic people wanted to have put in place to prevent all the min maxing to have only allow a weapon every so many men in a unit?

It was hailed in it's simplicity, and yet, it still doesn't make everyone happy.

Toreador wrote:Heh heh, wasn't the mechanic people wanted to have put in place to prevent all the min maxing to have only allow a weapon every so many men in a unit? It was hailed in it's simplicity, and yet, it still doesn't make everyone happy.

It's not the idea, but the execution that people are bitching about.

Other than IG, every other unit that can field a heavy weapon seems to need 10 troopers to do so, hence the feeling that every army goes by the CA, including Xenos and Chaos.

OT:

What can this expansion really bring to the table besides scenarions (if that)?
New flyer rules? How about putting that in the offical fricking rule book?
New Models? Release them with the new rules...

Tunneling, teleporting, grav chuting.... We've already got rules for this, why do we need more? I think I'll be passing on this supplement GW.

Orks got a long overdue truck, not a new battlewagon.

Of course it won't be universally hailed!

Prepare for some major moaning when the Vanilla SM's get nerfed hard (heh!) and then some more moaning when the SM psychic powers get gutted as well.

I still think GW's going about "fixing" their ruleset's problems with a chainsaw where a scalpel would be the better tool.

All this worshiping at the altar of Simplicity is going to make for some bland games pretty soon.

Alpharius is right, a new plastic trukk GW did finally manufacture, but I'm saying the orks are one of the mainstay races, and they don't have a large plastic vehicle to their range yet - at least not since the 80's sometime.
And yet GW happily cranks out more and more large plastic kits for their increasingly one-sided game. I'm hoping that the current designs and options given in the new ork codex are harbingers of what is to come - for every unit entry, an appropriate kit available, with as many options as possible in said kit.

Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles, while hardly necessary new Imperial items, like a Thunderhawk. are being made.

It just bothers me that GW does not look like it is willing to finish what it starts before returning to their already very well-fed Imperial base. Of course they want to cater to their money-makers, but I had hoped that Marine-generated cash would go towards generating things other than more marines.

More the fool me.

Once the TH and Pods are completed, I don't think there's anything left in the SM line that needs plastic.

Maybe then they'll focus on more plastics for other races, but it's even more likely we'll get another abomination like the latest LR kit. Maybe a Vindicator Terminus is next.

Alpharius wrote:All this worshiping at the altar of Simplicity is going to make for some bland games pretty soon.

Pretty soon? I'm running on 3 years here!

Alpharius wrote:Wasn't that a plastic Trukk?

I suppose you could convert the Baneblade into a Trukk. Or two. Or three.

But from what I've seen, the Baneblade chassis just screams Battlewagon to most Ork players...

GrimTeef wrote:Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles,

Ahem. Isn't the point of Ork vehicles that they're kitbash and conversions? If every Ork vehicle looked the same, that would be far more of a travesty.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Wasn't that a plastic Trukk?

I suppose you could convert the Baneblade into a Trukk. Or two. Or three.

But from what I've seen, the Baneblade chassis just screams Battlewagon to most Ork players...

That scream you're hearing is actually from the mouths of Ork players paying $90 (give or take) for one of the "core" heavy support choices for their army!

JohnHwangDD:

Ahem. Isn't the point of Ork vehicles that they're kitbash and conversions? If every Ork vehicle looked the same, that would be far more of a travesty.

Does the same apply to every Ork gun? Maybe boxes of boyz should come without weapons. How about armour? Surely that's kitbashed too? Maybe Orks should come nude. Yeah, that's the ticket, nude boyz and a packet of GS.

Obviously not every piece of Ork kit is salvaged from other races. Orks are not, by and large, a race of inventors, but mostly just enact their genetic programming. If every Mek in the galaxy is hardcoded to be able to build SAGs and Dreads and Kans that look more or less the same, there's no reason why a similar STC (so to speak) shouldn't exist for big, killy tanks.

I totally plan to kitbash some looted wagons and battlewagons. I'd just like to know about how big the things should be. The new trukks are significantly larger than the previous. Is a battlewagon the size of a land raider, or just a chimera? Is a looted wagon the size of a rhino or the old ork trukk? I'm more than happy to field the old trukks with PVC gun barrel for the gun, but I don't want to be ridiculous either.

Toreador wrote:It was hailed in it's simplicity, and yet, it still doesn't make everyone happy.

Mainly because it was done in a (typical for GW) ham-fisted way.

I mean, I don't mind one special weapon choice in a 5-man squad, but it should be a special or heavy weapon. You shouldn't have to be forced to bring a full 10 men before you can get the Heavy Weapon (this only applies doubly for Chaos and tripply (SP??) for Orks).

Even in our Marine Codex, where we have Combat Squads, and indeed there are benefits for taking 10-man squads (free Vet Sergeant for one thing), the access to weapon options isn't restricted, and the weapons have to be equally split between combat squads. It works well. We've tested it endlessly, and, most important of all, it's fun.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

GrimTeef wrote:Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles,

Ahem. Isn't the point of Ork vehicles that they're kitbash and conversions? If every Ork vehicle looked the same, that would be far more of a travesty.

Believe me, part of me wholeheartedly agrees with you. But the fact is that a lot of players can't be bothered to do that or don't have the skill to convert / kitbash / scratchbuild. Having the large plastic kits helps to even the playing field when it comes to modelling and each race having an equal opportunity to see action on the gameboard, as some people simply won't play an army if they have to go to THAT much trouble. Building and painting and playing take enough time as it is!

Now, like I said, I would not want every ork vehicle to look the same, same as you. My battlewagons are actually giant ork tinboyz with tellyporta arrays to represent their transport capacity, so I'm no stranger to conversions and enjoy them - when I have the time. I don't expect all ork players to have to follow the trial and error road that is scratchbuilding, and frankly neither should GW. Especially for a 'core' race.

OK, that's fair. Tho really, aside from the ugly little GM vehicles, everything I've seen from an Ork player has been happily & lovingly (& wackily) converted.

Orks just seem to naturally attract such players.

Whether that is out of preference or necessity is hard to say.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, that's fair. Tho really, aside from the ugly little GM vehicles, everything I've seen from an Ork player has been happily & lovingly (& wackily) converted.

Orks just seem to naturally attract such players.

Whether that is out of preference or necessity is hard to say.

That's an easy question to answer: it's out of necessity. Either GW didn't provide the model or the model that was available was (is) horribly old and out of scale in comparison to the rest of the army.

Orks, like every other race in the game, should have a model produced by GW for each of their army. Players can and will always have the opportunity to make converted models, but they should never be forced to do so just to play the army. Doing so presents a barrier to new players and convinces them not to play Orks and instead drives them to play an army that is "easy to put together" like Space Marines.

It is a stupid practice that needs to end now. Orks deserve a Battlewagon, Buggies, Flash Gitz, Cyborks, and (non-Warphead) Wierdboy models. They better all be part of the later releases in 2008, but especially the Battlewagon, Buggies and Flash Gitz.

I'm with yakface. Orks should be one of the BIG armies. They've been around since rogue trader, and are a staple of the 40K universe. The complete and utter lack of support GW have shown them in the past decade is a disgrace. It mostly stems from their halfhearted 3rd ed redesign, which ruined the scale and look of many of their models (compare this to marines, chaos marines, IG, or eldar. I consider all these to be the core armies, but by and large 2nd ed models will still fit the scale and "feel" of the army) and therefore pushed the orky fanbase off into other, more well supported armies.

The new models are blooming great IMHO, especially the vehicles, but the Orks really really need those gaps in their army filled. They need them far more than the marines need some fancy non-tournement oversized Thunderhawk anyway.

If they don't come out with a Battlewagon for the second release cycle, there is just no hope!!

I think another thing is that orks have always had so many wacky options that it would make it hard to make all the models and kits for them, so people have tended to go wild and crazy. A lot of other armies just don't have all those options, so the variety of models isn't near the same and thus most options are covered.

GrimTeef wrote:

Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles, while hardly necessary new Imperial items, like a Thunderhawk. are being made.

It just bothers me that GW does not look like it is willing to finish what it starts before returning to their already very well-fed Imperial base. Of course they want to cater to their money-makers, but I had hoped that Marine-generated cash would go towards generating things other than more marines.

More the fool me.

Dude, the Ork codex isn't even out yet everywhere and these are just rumors of a plastic Thunderhawk. Isn't it a bit early to get the knickers in a twist?
Wait, I'm at Dakka, nevermind...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yak's saying exactly what I said, though more succinctly and well thought-out.

Tor - yes, you are right there. There WERE so many options for orks that GW making all the models for them would be difficult. This goes back to my point squeezed into an earlier post.

The orks lost several options as well as gained. Skarboyz are gone, as well as cybork units (for the most part, now they are an option with a special character). Burnas were removed from boyz mobz.

I think the reason for these changes is simply the fact that GW was not intended to ever release models for these particular units or options - or they simply could not fit all the parts into the box for that unit.

I think the latter is why the burna option was removed from the boyz mobz. Not because it was overpowered - because it wasn't - but just because the burna boy model needs so many extra parts they couldn't squeeze them all into the boyz mob frames.

GW was not going to make skarboyz or cyborks, so their entries were largely or entirely removed.

This theory does give hope to the thought that GW will in fact release a plastic battlewagon and looted wagon (though few seem to really care about the looted wagon). Because the entry exists, and seeing how the other units have been handled (like lootas and burna boyz), then it almost stands to reason that a battlewagon will finally see the light of day...

... it's just rediculous that we hear more rumors about increasing numbers of Imperial vehicles when we have no core tank for the orks, not even solid rumor of its creation or arrival.

Ozymandias wrote:
Dude, the Ork codex isn't even out yet everywhere and these are just rumors of a plastic Thunderhawk. Isn't it a bit early to get the knickers in a twist?
Wait, I'm at Dakka, nevermind...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Heh, point taken. I am just bugged that we get more rumors about more (largely unimportant in game terms up to now) Imperial items, when no one can really point to rumors of when a core army gets a kit for a staple entry.

I try not to rant about much - it is just a game, after all - but seeing a mental picture of some GW exec saying "hey, let's make the Thunderhawk next! Wouldn't that be great fellas?!" while the ork players sit waiting for their main vehicle to be designed or finished...

I would hope that GW would have their priorities straight as far as army model design and options go, but then they do, in a way, since they are catering to their largest audience with the Thunderhawk.

GrimTeef wrote:
I try not to rant about much - it is just a game, after all - but seeing a mental picture of some GW exec saying "hey, let's make the Thunderhawk next! Wouldn't that be great fellas?!" while the ork players sit waiting for their main vehicle to be designed or finished...

Wait, have you already forgotten how long it's taken for decent, new core Ork releases to come out in the first place? I guarantee you that's exactly what's been happening for the past 10 years .

You shouldn't have to be forced to bring a full 10 men before you can get the Heavy Weapon (this only applies doubly for Chaos and tripply (SP??) for Orks).

It's really a sanity issue. When Rookits are just BETTER than Shootas, why wouldn't all Orks carry Rokkits? Why is 1 in 10 too few, but 3 per squad just right? It's all just game balance, and GW hasn't really come up with a good way to balance out the fact that heavy and special weapons tend to be way more valuable than the points they cost.

I think the best answer I've seen is in AT-43. That system tends to let you buy a smaller squad with one heavy weapon, or a bigger squad with three. Or something like that. Basically the idea here is that the best heavy weapon density comes with a full sized squad.

The reason I think this would work nicely with 40K, is because small, maxed out squads don't just have lots of shooting for their points, they also break your points into smaller chunks that can split their fire. It's a double advantage, so it's a no brainer to load up on those 6-man las/plas squads.

On the other hand, if you force the player to take a large squad to get the best heavy weapon density, then you create a tradeoff, and tradeoffs make list building more thoughtful.

I think 1 heavy weapon per "X" models is fine especially once the codex cycle finishes and all armies are limited in such a way.

For years people have been saying "If GW doesn't want the player to min/max their squads why don't they write the codex that way?" And then when they finally start to do just that people complain about it.

Frankly, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.



@Grimteef: I personally don't think there will be/should a Looted wagon model. In my mind that is the catch-all entry for pretty much any vehicle "looted" from an opposing race that you want to field in the Ork army (besides some of the bigger vehicles which fit more of as a Battlewagon).

As such I don't really think it would be appropriate to release a model for that paritcular unit, IMHO, although a plastic kit with Orky bits to help people convert vehicles would sure be nice!

Orks are sort of a good example of a unit that doesn't need the one special per 10 to be counterbalanced. Even if they were 1 special/heavy per 5, you wouldn't see people fielding 6 units of 5 orks due to morale issues.
Now, obviously this doesn't work for other armies etc., and I didn't give this more than a few seconds thought. But there might be something to be said for balancing armies in their own unique ways to avoid min/max problems other than the "Codex Astartes One for Ten" method. Just saying.

back on topic: I wouldn't mind seeing a plastic thunderhawk as next superheavy. like the baneblade you can basically use it for with 4 factions. altough, then we still have eldar, tau, necrons and 'nids who didn't get a plastic superheavy....something like an eldar fighter just wouldn't make enough money, unless there would be some evil gothic-eldar sonversion possibilities.

it would be cool, if they managed to make a plastic valkyre and something for a xenos faction, but I doubt it.

I think Planetstrike will be an interesting addition to the rules. Instead of models just deep striking, I imagine we will see many counter measures for various specific deep striking methods. Teleport jammers, anti-aircraft fire, etc; instead of models just appearing.

I think a thunderhawk would be cool to see, but it'd be so much more expensive than the baneblade with the sheer number of sprues required.

People have mentioned alot how armies are going to be neglected if they don't get a super heavy or something else in Planetstrike. I think in planet strike most other armies are gonna have alot more going for them. IG will need Valkyries and SM and CSM need Thunderhawks or drop pods to take advantage of planet strike, but I think Eldar, Tau, Necron, and Dark Eldar will all have the benefit of their normal vehicles being able to take upgrades to gain deep strike and flyer abilities.

Ozymandias wrote:

Dude, the Ork codex isn't even out yet everywhere and these are just rumors of a plastic Thunderhawk. Isn't it a bit early to get the knickers in a twist?
Wait, I'm at Dakka, nevermind...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

d00d it's a news and rumors discussion board, why get your knickers in a twist about people discussing news and rumors?

Anyway, facts are the Space Marinez outsell, what everything by 2 to 1? I'd expect a plastic thunderhawk pretty soon, I'm surprised it came out before the Baneblade.

Why do you even think that they are basing the ork heavy weapon the same as marines? Couldn't it be just as simple that they now have a 10 man box with 1 heavy weapon in it, thus 1 per 10? Maybe they don't want you loading up large units with large amounts of heavy weapons, and leave that to the specialists units that carry a large amount of those weapons, so thus it is one in ten? Why is it assumed they are just following along with what they did with the DA dex?

They could have picked any arbitrary number and there would be complaints.

Anung Un Rama wrote:...something like an eldar fighter just wouldn't make enough money, unless there would be some evil gothic-eldar conversion possibilities... it would be cool, if they managed to make a plastic valkyre and something for a xenos faction, but I doubt it...

I think that they should offset the cost in low selling armys models production against the mass selling armys such as the SMs... and average the prices (and losses) over the range.

Just because the eldar might lose money they also just by existing form apart of what makes the imperial armys so cool (esp for the kids!!!) and make money...

In the end if planet strike is the only way of playing a thunderhawk, much as apoc is the only way to field a baneblade.
With out good options for the other armys, eldar tau ect won't have reason to accept invites to planetstrike games.
And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

And yes I play Eldar (but also Nurgle, I'll have three drop-pods/dreadclaws please! and sometimes Guard).


Panic.

Wehrkind wrote:Orks are sort of a good example of a unit that doesn't need the one special per 10 to be counterbalanced. Even if they were 1 special/heavy per 5, you wouldn't see people fielding 6 units of 5 orks due to morale issues.
Now, obviously this doesn't work for other armies etc., and I didn't give this more than a few seconds thought. But there might be something to be said for balancing armies in their own unique ways to avoid min/max problems other than the "Codex Astartes One for Ten" method. Just saying.

But people would complain about 5, much like they complain about 10. Ultimately the problem comes from the optimum number of rockets being about 1 per 2 or 1 per 3 orks, depending on how many meatshields you needed to protect your rockets. Ork rockets, like heavy and special weapons for just about every troops choice in every list, are massively underpriced. The artificial limits on special and heavy weapons are the only thing stopping people from making all their troops choices into blocks of heavy weapons, and subsequently turning the game into stand and deliver tedium.

Forcing troops choices to move around the field is a good thing, even if its done with ugly rules like 1/10 orks and combat squads.

It'd probably be best if GW built a more sophisticated system where troops were chosen because the system had developed beyond bigger guns = better, and mobile, adaptable forward units were an important part of a functioning army... but asking for that would make me crazier than the people calling for a simultaneous turn sequence.

Well, yea, my point is that GW should have a more elegant and sophisticated rule system.

Perhaps a quicker answer would be to jack up the prices on heavy weapons across the board.

Panic wrote:I think that they should offset the cost in low selling armys models production against the mass selling armys such as the SMs... and average the prices (and losses) over the range.

They do this already. That is why SM Tacticals are $35/box and DE Warriors are also $35/box. If each miniatures line were standalone, SM Tacticals would be less than $10/box and DE Warriors would be at least $100/box.

Wehrkind wrote:Perhaps a quicker answer would be to jack up the prices on heavy weapons across the board.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, along with reduced access. At least, charge the same price whether a Troops / Elite / Heavy buys the weapon, and don't allow HQ / Fast to have access. Then the advantage for Troops is that they have access at all.

Of course, this is what GW is doing in the newer books, right?

I suppose that new flyer rules for grav abks would also be a good idea. but on the other hand, wouldn't that make the falcon even more overpowered?

I'm guessing from the name planetfall, that the main purpose of the expansion will be to set up senarios whereby one player defends a position from a offplanet attack force...

this will create the need for every force to be given a creditable form of deep striking en mass... drop pods, warp gates, web way portals, bio pods etc...
I dunno what necrons will do? phase in?

Panic wrote:And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

This is a very good point- to only focus on models for the factions that sell the best is a bit short-sighted because those factions need dirty, dirty xenos to burn and purge. Even if the xenos don't sell the best, they are part of the reason the game is fun for the factions that do sell well.

I'm interested to see what this expansion will bring to the game and I'm always excited about new models. I do, however, have to admit that constant Imperial releases does make the rest of the armies feel second rate. The Baneblade wasn't too bad because all Imperial armies can use it and they released rules for an Ork and Chaos version. Unfortunately the Thunderhawk isn't as versatile. The drop pods are a good idea because they can be used in regular games of 40k and can be used by Chaos as well.

As far as the "theme" behind the expansion I think it will be interesting to see the types of missions it offers. Also, it will be interesting to see what support each army gets... except Necrons who quite possibly will take it to the face again much as they did with Apocolypse.

I've been thinking about it more... I can't wait to get those chaos drop pods raining down...
i'll be able to put my dreads inside right? (and when it goes a little do-lally starts to shoot the place up i'll actually smile!)

I have this urge in me to start a necron army but the neglect they suffer puts me off... i started some german predtorians instead...
I mean GW would sell loads of necron if they just offered one good addition... I mean if they made a necron flier/heavy/tank/whatever out of the blue I think most of us would be tempted to dabble...

Turtle wrote:
*mention of squats*

*nobody plays squats LOL*

*goes off to a corner to cry his eyes out*

Gief Space d00rfs now plixz!!!!111one

On a more serious note, "Planetfall" seems like it could be a good thing, if there
rules are at least half-decent.

As for GW supporting Imperials; I'm an imperialist myself, having only played
Imperial Guard and SoBs. Even though my IGs will be using daemonhosts and
other naughty bits in the future, I'll still stick with calling myself Imperialist. I guess
GW sees the smart thing about making models that a lot of players can use (SMs,
Valkyries for all the different IGs, not to mention DH and WH). But for some reason
they don't seem to get the other part of the argument: you can only enjoy fighting
power-armoured genetic freaks for so long! If I remember correctly, my local GW
actually decided to move all their Dark Eldar to a back storage room to make room
for the new SM/Apocalypse boxes. Not that there are any Dark eldarians that I know
of in this region, but that doesn't make it better... *sigh*

"Give me a lasgun in my hand, and a Xenos in my sight, and for the Emperor I shall fight!"

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

JOHIRA wrote:

Panic wrote:And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

This is a very good point- to only focus on models for the factions that sell the best is a bit short-sighted because those factions need dirty, dirty xenos to burn and purge. Even if the xenos don't sell the best, they are part of the reason the game is fun for the factions that do sell well.

It's nice to know I play one of these races only for the amusement of spaz mariners. Wouldn't want them getting all bored if they only played each other.

Stormtrooperx wrote: The drop pods are a good idea because they can be used in regular games of 40k and can be used by Chaos as well.
@ Stormtrooper x Chaos can drop do you mean the rules in IA ? i didn't see it in the new dex.

stonefox wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:

Panic wrote:And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

This is a very good point- to only focus on models for the factions that sell the best is a bit short-sighted because those factions need dirty, dirty xenos to burn and purge. Even if the xenos don't sell the best, they are part of the reason the game is fun for the factions that do sell well.

It's nice to know I play one of these races only for the amusement of spaz mariners. Wouldn't want them getting all bored if they only played each other.

Stonefox, you of all people should have realised that Spase Marienz never get bored playing with each other.

Back on topic, CoD was good, Apocalypse was meh (IMHO though I know loads of people love it.) There is no precedent that Planetstrike will be any good. It depends on the quality of the writer.

On a positive note, Planetside provides an opportunity to put out one or two new plastic models for each army so that everyone gets a bit of loving and the whole market is stimulated. For example, Tau could get an anti-aircraft turret for the Hammerhead chassis and an Orca or Tetra kit. But nothing will happen because GW do not have the capability to do it, so the Impies will get the new stuff as usual.

If GW were any good at making kits their basic infantry boxes would be tons better with separate arms, weapons and a sprue of special weapons for customising. However with the new 1/10 heavy weapon rule that is pointless. A proper case of design following function.

Whilst it is true that GW have made progress in kit design, they have merely got themselves up from the stone age to the copper age compared with Tamiya et al. GW's modern kits are below the level of the old Frog kits from the early 1960s in terms of build quality.

That's about enough for one post. I don't want to wear out my keyboard.

skullspliter888 wrote: Stormtrooperx wrote: The drop pods are a good idea because they can be used in regular games of 40k and can be used by Chaos as well.
@ Stormtrooper x Chaos can drop do you mean the rules in IA ? i didn't see it in the new dex.

I don't believe there are rules for drop pods in the new Chaos codex, but FW does have the Dreadclaw model. I'm assuming that with the release of Planetfall there will be rules in it for drop podding Chaos.

sweet time to paint that hell talon and start to build drop claws

Yeah the codex has no metion of drop pods, I figure that planetstrike will add options to lists.
Hopefully permanent additions, not planetfall/apoc only!

a chaos dreadclaw holds Ten marines? while a imperial pod holds five?
Wonder how that will be explained or brushed under the sofa... yeah the chaos boys don't use claws now they like the idea of combat squads...

I also hope the droppod kit has deathwind options.
and dropping chaos dreads is a must... I'll pay the points just get them away from my tanks!

Panic....

More developed fliers would be nice, more of a combined arms approach to the game.

The next step would be orbital and spacecraft terrain for fights in space!