As many of you know, a few years back GW basically black balled US internet retailers that used the shopping chart option. Well now since they decided that their bitz service was far better then everyone else’s they are going after internet retailers again that sell bits.

The warstore was recently giving 90 days by GW to shut down their bitz service shopping cart. So BWB has the options of shutting down, or switch to phone in/paper orders (a nightmare to some retailers).

The good news this affects the US only, so Canadian or UK bitz companies can still sell their product free of GWs tactics.

*edited of inflammatory references to monsters from the 30's and 40's*
-Drake

Nooooooooooooooooo! I even use the warstore from the other side of the lake! Don't do this to me!

Greets
Schepp himself

Ravenous D wrote:
The warstore was recently giving 90 days by GW to shut down their bitz service shopping cart.

were did you saw that? cant seem to find it.

So BWBUK is ok?

Good.

BYE

NAVARRO wrote:

were did you saw that? cant seem to find it.

Caught it over on warseer and passed it along. http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125970

H.B.M.C. wrote:So BWBUK is ok?

Good.

BYE

As far as I know, unless the UK online retailers got bashed by the GW Gestapo raids 3 years ago.

I feel a non-trivial amount of anger at this news.

There are still options, email orders, ebay store etc but this is just obnoxious.

Especially when paired with GW's refusal to sell bitz themselves.

I really, really feel another BOYCOTT GW rant coming on.

The other half of this is that even if you are a Bitz company the fact that GW cut their bitz service and turned it into a gouge-o-thon makes it almost impossible for online retailers to make a profit selling bits.

For example before an online retailer could order the bitz and get his retailers discount, but now GW has cut the discount for retailers when you buy direct for the "mail order only" (ALL their bitz) and you would have to buy the entire box in order to get your discount! So say I wanted to order 10 eldar heavy weapon sprues, that would mean an online retailer would have to have 10 of them from 10 different boxes.

The low hances of selling the other bitz makes it not worth the effort.

Thanks for the link mate. Hell this is just frustating news. Guess i need to get my bitz asap.

I keep waiting and waiting for GW to make some move that makes me say, "wow, that's an awesome idea."



Still waiting....

You'll probably want to get a pillow and a book because it's going to be a long time I think.

I can't wrap my head around their thinking, usually if your company is starting to go into a nose dive you try to find the problem and get youself upright, not swing it straight down and try and take out as many innocent people as you can.

It seems GWs motto is "f'em we'll take them for all they're worth before we crash!".

Since apocalypse was there way of being "nice guys" and that didn't pull in as much as they wanted, I guess they figure they'll go back to being the usual bastards that they are.

Thats just stupid from a business standpoint. They are shutting off a sales channel. As they just shut off their own bitz lines (I almost dare you to find some type of bits remaining) this just kills a whole revenue stream FOR NO PURPOSE.

I better finish up my bits purchases then. It is a great service for those who only want specific parts and don't need everything else in the box set the bit comes in.

I can't possibly see how bits buying can lower the perceived value of a product or really hurt brick and mortar shops who do not offer the same service.

jfrazell wrote:Thats just stupid from a business standpoint. They are shutting off a sales channel. As they just shut off their own bitz lines (I almost dare you to find some type of bits remaining) this just kills a whole revenue stream FOR NO PURPOSE.

What's worse is GW ceasing to sell mail order only items (all the bitz I might add) to the indy stores at their retailers discount of 50%. If they want them they have to pay the same as the rest of us. So basically GW just smashed all the online bitz retailers who were making money off of them. Which doesnt make any sense because those bitz retailers were buying FROM GW, so squashing them only proves to lose them money.

It's typical GW though, screw the little guy as much as possible and still lose money. I don't understand how the company seems to think it's policy of "screwing over your customer base = profit".

Another foolish thing is that I'd bet most bitz sales go to veteran gamers. Who else but a nutter absolutely NEEDS 65 Mk8 helmets? So it's a nice way to alienate people who have probably already spent thousands of dollars on your hobby. Nice one.

Gah. Being one of those conversion junkies who just... can't... make... a normal model, I was annoyed by GW's decision to replace the amazing bitz service with the poorly thought-out restricted 'bitz pack' idea.

Mild annoyance was my reaction because I thought to myself:
'Self, you can buy things from online bits resellers.'
'Good thinking, Third-person perspective Self.'
'Thanks.'

So to hear that GW is now trying to close these down appals me.

Ravenous D wrote:You'll probably want to get a pillow and a book because it's going to be a long time I think.

Pillow to suffocate whoever thinks these decisions are good for the long-term success of a hobby company? Book to batter their unconscious body to bits, or just for instructions on how to dispose of the bloated corpse?


*Huff*

My understanding was that GW bought out BW bits (at gun point) and basically rolled their service up.

I do wish that GW would let us just buy bits (but atleast you UK & US guys can get sprues easily enough .... we have to go overseas to buy individual sprues .... yes the Australian GW Online store sucks).

GW wonders why they don't make any money, here's a thought: offer their OWN bitz service.

gosh.

You are incorrect. Neal at the Warstore bought BWBitz.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I feel a non-trivial amount of anger at this news.

There are still options, email orders, ebay store etc but this is just obnoxious.

Especially when paired with GW's refusal to sell bitz themselves.

I really, really feel another BOYCOTT GW rant coming on.

With GeeDub's assinine policy change towards selling bases TWS was basically my only outlet for getting tons of 1 kind of base for mass counts as projects, apart from trading for them. Looks like I'll have to fall back on the community again, which thankfully hasn't been shut down and locked up by the Dubja quite yet

But really GW, it's one dick move after another these days, innit? I thought after APOC we could start liking you again, but clearly that was wishful thinking.

- Salvage

EDIT: Looking at the original post on WS, it looks like GW is doing to Neal what it did to BWB. Take down your images, don't have an online cart, but you can keep selling bitz by e-mail or phone. So all is not lost, it's just totally inconvenient. Still a dick move, but bitz live on at the expense of complication on all of our parts (particularly Neal's).

Cool! No more GW for you [evil cackle]customer scum[/evilcackle] now you´ll have to earn them.
It´s just me or GW is starting to resemble the Imperium fluff?.

Next week on GWNEWs: Our Chairman succesfully lobbies 10th Downing Street for a new tax on baby food for our Godly CEO´s new mansion in Bahamas

M.

In the UK we will still have Wookie Hole, though their selction is poor and overpriced.

The only answer for US bitz folks is for someone to set up a website from an office north of the border. So long as the transaction is in canadian dollars under canadian law the models can be sourced anywhere, yes?

Miguelsan wrote:
It´s just me or GW is starting to resemble the Imperium fluff?.

I hope so, then the company that finally takes over GW can call the inquisition out on these idiots. The good 'ole =I= takes a dim view of needlessly wasting the divine Emperor's resources.

hubcap wrote:Another foolish thing is that I'd bet most bitz sales go to veteran gamers. Who else but a nutter absolutely NEEDS 65 Mk8 helmets? So it's a nice way to alienate people who have probably already spent thousands of dollars on your hobby. Nice one.

I bought 55 dire wolf heads for my demon army. 55! There's no way I would have bought 55 complete dire wolves.

Where are gone all the fanbois explaining how this is a great move?

I just hope Neal will switch to the downloadable catalog. Better than nothing. GW is trying to hinder the Warstore, but there's clearly a full market opening now that GW closed its bitz service.

Orlanth wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:
It´s just me or GW is starting to resemble the Imperium fluff?.

I hope so, then the company that finally takes over GW can call the inquisition out on these idiots. The good 'ole =I= takes a dim view of needlessly wasting the divine Emperor's resources.

The =I= doesn't care how the Imperium exploits their own, just how other people exploit them.

The Administratum (As GW will henceforth be known): Frustratingly needless restrictions and inanely complicated bureaucracy to the point of utter absurdity. But with YOUR best interests in mind! :S

This comes as dark and dire news to me. My only beacon of hope is that Neal will continue his bitz service over the phone, along with everything else. This is still maddeningly frustrating, but frustration is preferable to despair.

Of course if they just left well enough alone, or, (SHOCK!) provided their OWN bitz service (That includes plastics, you slackers!) then we could avoid both. But tis not a hobby to be enjoyed without a smidgen of despair and frustration I suppose...

GW closing its bitz service (it's a little more than a "reorganization") is a shot across this veteran gamer's bow. This may seem overly dramatic, but IMO it's one of the most disheartening things GW has done. I never complained about GW pricing as I saw things like bitz as being premium service we receive in exchange for their premium pricing.

As others have said, it's the veterans who used the bitz service most. And this really tells me that GW just isn't that interested in me or my business anymore.

Saddly, this is the very reason I left GW the first time and went to PP. I was getting a little burnt out on WM/Hordes and decided to rejoin the ranks of the 40k gaming crowd largely due to Apoc. Of course it's GW's heavy handed tactics like this that are the reason that my vacation from PP and WM is just that....A vacation.

I'll do what I need to do to get the models I need mostly by trading with local gamers and over on bartertown. But as far as giving large chucks of my well earned money to GW.....

Hi guys, here is the deal.
We didn't want to announce this quite yet because when this happened at BWBits the orders went though the roof. First off I am the founder of BWBits. I now currently work for TheWarStore and one of my jobs of course is to monitor the bits side of the business which I previously owned.

Now as stated yes GW has given us 90 days to take the bits out of shopping cart format. So what does that really mean?

It means that you will no longer be able to process orders on the web through our site, however the pictures and pricing will still be on there for reference. As you know while at BWBits I was working on V2 of a downloadable catalog that is almost complete. It will be available for download and also in paper form for a nominal fee and include FREE downloadable updates!

The best part is that we will also have a downloadable order form that you can use to place orders just as easily as doing it over the web. And of course you can always call order in to us.

In conclusion we are still committed to providing the largest bits selection on the internet, at the best prices possible. We just invested in a larger facility to house and process bits orders, and expanded our mailing operation. We are committed to you as much as you are to us.

Thanks and Happy Gaming
Rob Baer
Founder BWBits
Evil Warmaster TheWarStore

High five Kesher, thanks for filling us in on the facts.

Kesher wrote:And of course you can always call order in to us.

Honestly that's how I always order from Neal anyway

- Salvage

I don't see this as such a bad thing. Hardly anyone I know orders bitz anyway, and the ones that do will be happy to order whole boxes instead since then that just means more spare bitz for the bitzbox! Besides, GW designs their boxes to have all the parts you need to build a legal unit and none that you don't. Letting people buy bitz separately just encourages them to build units in ways that GW did not intend! Good riddance I say!

Any smart converter knows that if you use parts that aren't in the box you do so at your own risk. Unfortunately some of you aren't so smart. GW gave you free rein to convert and what did you do? You abused the privilege and converted willy-nilly! Some of you even built LatD armies and then whined when GW took away your stupid army list! Now that they're taking steps to discourage you from making the same mistake again you whine even more! They're doing you a FAVOR and all you do is WHINE! What a bunch of whiners! GW just can't win! It's obvious that you whiners are not responsible enough to handle unrestricted bitz service.

GW is just trying to improve the hobby and if you don't like it then you should just shut up and GIT OUT! The rest of us should only be so lucky. But of course you whiny baby-babies just love whining too much to do that! Well at least we won't have to hear another round of whining about how your precious LatD/Kroot Merc/Alpha Legion/other army that you shouldn't have built in the first place got invalidated. In that respect I think GW is doing us all a huge favor. Thank you GW!

I'm thinking this is serious tongue in cheek.

So with this "downloadable order form" we will be able to take an "electronic document", fill it out with our "order", and then "electronically transmit" it throuth the "intarwebz" so that you folks can review it, give us a price with shipping, "electronically transmit" this new "order form" to us, who then pay you with "electronic intarwebz monies" and receive an "electronic receipt", and eventually our product.

In other words, and fewer air quotes, GW just placed a large, throbbing member between us and you, one which is circumvented with little difficulty.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually challenged GW in court over this? I am fairly certain that as a reseller of product, once you own title to it, GW has little to no say in how you present it and operate your order receipt process. Unless BWB signed a really restrictive contract. I dunno, I think this might make a really interesting MBA case study, and I might be just the prospective MBA student to do it...

Abby is right. While converting is advertised as a major component of the hobby, it is hardly mandatory to enjoy the hobby. Besides, GW has already made converting easy by adding so many plastic bits to the sprue, so that everyone can "convert" by swapping plastic bitz from different kits. Using green stuff and metal models is so early 1990s. The new sprues have all sorts of cool items, you can never have too many grenades and combat knives. GW was even good enough to add "legacy support" to those veteran gamers who want "old school" looking items by having a few beakie heads and a SINGLE mk6 shoulder pad per box. Nobody REALLY uses these, and you can always trade other players for what you need. GW is doing gamers a service by removing the "confusing" bitz system and streamlining the model building portion of the hobby by keeping things simple and TELLING YOU WHICH PARTS YOU CAN USE.

Talk about players being ungrateful!

/sarcasm.

keezus wrote:Abby is right. While converting is advertised as a major component of the hobby, it is hardly mandatory to enjoy the hobby. Besides, GW has already made converting easy by adding so many plastic bits to the sprue, so that everyone can "convert" by swapping plastic bitz from different kits. Using green stuff and metal models is so early 1990s. The new sprues have all sorts of cool items, you can never have too many grenades and combat knives. GW was even good enough to add "legacy support" to those veteran gamers who want "old school" looking items by having a few beakie heads and a SINGLE mk6 shoulder pad per box. Nobody REALLY uses these, and you can always trade other players for what you need. GW is doing gamers a service by removing the "confusing" bitz system and streamlining the model building portion of the hobby by keeping things simple and TELLING YOU WHICH PARTS YOU CAN USE.

Talk about players being ungrateful!

/sarcasm.

Ok, my sarcasm detector has been broken since I first read Abba's
post once upon a time, but I can't tell if you're riffing on Abba, or
against him. And then, THEN, you tell me you're being sarcastic!

I'm so confused.

jfrazell wrote:I'm thinking this is serious tongue in cheek.

Yeah, but post it on Warseer and watch them line up to say "Bravo! Well done GW!"

Second question: Has anyone submitted a complaint about GW fixing prices and colluding with retailers to do the same?
Trying to explain this situation to my wife, it occured to me that GW attempting to force all retail outlets to charge the same price it does on it's website smacks solidly of price fixing. Granted, it is only one company and not a group, but that might be an interesting angle.

If nothing else, it demonstrates that GW can't handle the idea of stores competing with each other and GW's store to provide a product at a better price. The wraith of Adam Smith shall rise up, and swoop down upon Nottingham with great vengance and furious anger!

Kesher wrote:Hi guys, here is the deal.
We didn't want to announce this quite yet because when this happened at BWBits the orders went though the roof.

Sorry! to late for me, just placed a order with the bitz i need asap

Wehrkind wrote:

...

...

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually challenged GW in court over this? I am fairly certain that as a reseller of product, once you own title to it, GW has little to no say in how you present it and operate your order receipt process. Unless BWB signed a really restrictive contract. I dunno, I think this might make a really interesting MBA case study, and I might be just the prospective MBA student to do it...

If I were GW my argument would be that the kits are sold as complete kits under the proviso they are not split up for repackaging. This is the same as when you buy a bulk pack of 24 tins of Coca Cola and the packaging says "Not for individual resale" or something like that. So the principle has some kind of basis in commercial law, and clearly you can write legal contracts that limit the basic property rights of the buyer. (I am talking about English law.)

However, as I understand it, BWB operates by buying the spare bitz left over from making a kit and reselling them, such as the extra Tau carbines you get in a box of Fire Warriors.

Whether this activity falls in the same area as splitting up multi-packs of Coke I am somewhat doubtful. However any ordinary company going up against GW would probably lose on cash whatever the possible outcome of the case.

There is nothing to stop individuals setting up a bitz exchange website. It would have to operate on trust.

jfrazell wrote:Thats just stupid from a business standpoint. They are shutting off a sales channel. As they just shut off their own bitz lines (I almost dare you to find some type of bits remaining) this just kills a whole revenue stream FOR NO PURPOSE.

The cessation of GW Bitz and Classics sales has several positive (for them) effects. It reduces the amount of product codes in the system (which means easier inventory handling), stops the need to stockpile quite that many old moulds (I'd be willing to bet several of them will be scrapped to "free up space"), and reduces the amount of manual work required on behalf of the staff collecting the orders (it's easier to gather an order composed of only blisters and boxes as opposed to one of 25 separate loose components).

It's not a case of some evil overlord going "Mwahahahahahaaha!!!" in their volcano lair. It's a desperate attempt to cut costs.

Ok thats like the guy that is just toooo fat and instead of stop eating he cuts his balls off to be lighter

Yet i cant see how do they save any money by chasing and hunting independent bitz providers? The warstore is mainly plastic bitz off sprues so they dont order bitz by catalog they order boxes.

Without disagreeing that GWUS's general attitude towards websales is ridiculous, I'm a little surprised that the Warstore set up the bits on a webcart in the first place, given that Kesher went through the exact same thing just before he sold BWB to them...

This isn't GW targeting Bits sales. It's GW US enforcing the same ridiculous 'no webstores' policy that they've had in place for years.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Thats just stupid from a business standpoint. They are shutting off a sales channel. As they just shut off their own bitz lines (I almost dare you to find some type of bits remaining) this just kills a whole revenue stream FOR NO PURPOSE.

The cessation of GW Bitz and Classics sales has several positive (for them) effects. It reduces the amount of product codes in the system (which means easier inventory handling), stops the need to stockpile quite that many old moulds (I'd be willing to bet several of them will be scrapped to "free up space"), and reduces the amount of manual work required on behalf of the staff collecting the orders (it's easier to gather an order composed of only blisters and boxes as opposed to one of 25 separate loose components).

It's not a case of some evil overlord going "Mwahahahahahaaha!!!" in their volcano lair. It's a desperate attempt to cut costs.

I'm perfectly aware of the values of SKU management and inventory reduction. But that doesn't cut it:
*raise the price on per bits order appropriately
*alternatively why kill BW Bits? Its handling the inventory cost for them. Other companies refer to that as "outsourcing." They could have reduced inventory costs but then kept BW BITS open (even JV'd with them) to handle the bits orders. Again its a dumb move from a cash flow perspective.

jfrazell wrote:
*alternatively why kill BW Bits? Its handling the inventory cost for them. Other companies refer to that as "outsourcing." They could have reduced inventory costs but then kept BW BITS open (even JV'd with them) to handle the bits orders. Again its a dumb move from a cash flow perspective.

Because if people buy plastic bits broken down from the frames from them, then it cuts into the income GW gets from selling whole frames.

Hence why GW views bits resellers as a "Big problem".

Is "frame" the US word for "sprue"?

Hellfury wrote:

jfrazell wrote:
*alternatively why kill BW Bits? Its handling the inventory cost for them. Other companies refer to that as "outsourcing." They could have reduced inventory costs but then kept BW BITS open (even JV'd with them) to handle the bits orders. Again its a dumb move from a cash flow perspective.

Because if people buy plastic bits broken down from the frames from them, then it cuts into the income GW gets from selling whole frames.

Assuming people are still interested in doing those same conversions. Many won't be.

Hellfury wrote:

jfrazell wrote:
*alternatively why kill BW Bits? Its handling the inventory cost for them. Other companies refer to that as "outsourcing." They could have reduced inventory costs but then kept BW BITS open (even JV'd with them) to handle the bits orders. Again its a dumb move from a cash flow perspective.

Because if people buy plastic bits broken down from the frames from them, then it cuts into the income GW gets from selling whole frames.

Hence why GW views bits resellers as a "Big problem".

I'm talking about purchasing the whole frame. You can't do that now from GW. Thats why this is blindingly stupid. if you can't do something, its better to outsource and make some money then no money at all. If I have to buy the whole Leman kit to get to the sprue with the heavy bolter, instead of that particular sprue, then they've just lost sales from me.

Edit: as noted above, I'm sure not interested in doing further conversions if its under this level of expense. If inventory managers can run warehouses with fasteners for every airplane ever assembled and ship it to you that day, for profit, then GW could do a simplified version. Or again, just sell to BW Bits directly or via JV and let them habndle the inventory costs.

Kilkrazy wrote:Is "frame" the US word for "sprue"?

I think "Frame" is a Hellfury word for "sprue."

Everyone I know calls it a sprue.


Eric

Kilkrazy wrote:Is "frame" the US word for "sprue"?

My understanding is that Frame would be the technical term for what everyone calls a Sprue.

Sprue Frame

Many other modeling companies refer to those bits of plastic as sprue frames as well.

jfrazell wrote:

I'm talking about purchasing the whole frame. You can't do that now from GW. Thats why this is blindingly stupid. if you can't do something, its better to outsource and make some money then no money at all. If I have to buy the whole Leman kit to get to the sprue with the heavy bolter, instead of that particular sprue, then they've just lost sales from me.

jfrazell wrote:I'm sure not interested in doing further conversions if its under this level of expense.

Oh come on - think about how impressed your gaming buddies will be when you unveil that lovingly converted command squad that cost you $150 to build.

And if anyone thinks that $150 is an exaggeration - that's only 5 regiment boxes - a conversion could conceivably use: Cadian (torsos/guns), Catachan (legs, arms), Bretonian (man at arms head), Wood Elves (cloak) and Space Marine bitz (combat shield, powerfist etc). SWEET. I mean, doesn't that make you EXCITED. But that's not all! If you want to really show your hardcoreness, buy the same boxes from Canada! Then you can boast that your unit set you back 33% more, (for no extra value, other than the unparalleled joy of knowing that Canadians have to fork out an extra $50 because the people that live in Canada are "special" customers!)

If you aren't willing to step up like that to show your ENTHUSIASM and FANATICISM to the game system, well, you should be off doing something else.

/sarcasm

Wow, this really sucks. I actually stopped buying from TWS for GW stuff cause I don't like having to call during store hours; its inconvenient not having a shopping cart. I've used BWB many, many times to get all the bits I've needed to complete various armies and for this to go away just doesn't make sense.

GW said that they blackballed online stores to help B&M stores compete (something I actually agree with) but to cut BWB which provides a service that doesn't in any way compete with B&M stores or GW has no explanation. Its a whole segment of the market that otherwise doesn't get any support. Plus, there are dozens of eBay bits sellers who don't even have a real store like Neil does. All this does is help them.

Congrats GW, you've managed to piss me off. There is no logical reason for them to make this move unless they are planning their own plastic bits service (and even then there is no reason other than corporate greed)!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, at least the trader forums will be more active now.

Long live BWBitz. May Gw's stupid decisions play into better business for you!

I think I heard the price bandied about that to keep a good chunk of the bitz service going that most of the bitz parts would have to be increased in cost 3 x 5 times. The re-org is suppose to allow them to have some bitz sales and not kill it all off. Still sucks.

And so does the web policy, but I buy mostly from my FLGS anyway.

Meh, Phone it in instead of submitting it online.

It's a bit of a hassle, but it hasn't seemed to stop Neil from selling tons of GW stuff for the past few years, so I can't see it being a big issue now.

Hellfury wrote:but thats what I am thinking is GW's rationale for making life hard for bits resellers.

But, again, they're not targeting Bits sellers specifically. They're just enforcing the same policy that's been in force regarding web stores for some years now.

Cost of train ticket form Brighton to Nottigham:
£90
Cost of Crowbar:
£15
Cost of Lamping GW's super business ideas devision over the head repeatedly:
Priceless

They need to wake up and smell the veteran gamers who have invested in this hobby. I'm live in the UK as you can tell, wonder how long it will be before our bits sites (meager though they are) are culled like this.

Quite a while.

As I understand it, trading laws in the UK and Europe prevent them from putting the same sort of restrictions in place as GW US.

And rumours from back when GW US's 'no webstore' policy first came in suggested that GW UK wasn't actually too happy with the idea anyway.

Kesher wrote:

It means that you will no longer be able to process orders on the web through our site, however the pictures and pricing will still be on there for reference. As you know while at BWBits I was working on V2 of a downloadable catalog that is almost complete. It will be available for download and also in paper form for a nominal fee and include FREE downloadable updates!

The best part is that we will also have a downloadable order form that you can use to place orders just as easily as doing it over the web. And of course you can always call order in to us.

Huzzah!

Well except for people in Red China... But I can still email.

Normally this level of inconvience would be the kiss of death for a business (and it was for so many online retailers of GW) but I think GW fans and warstore customers have shown they're loyal enough to walk across broken glass for their bitz.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Thats just stupid from a business standpoint. They are shutting off a sales channel. As they just shut off their own bitz lines (I almost dare you to find some type of bits remaining) this just kills a whole revenue stream FOR NO PURPOSE.

The cessation of GW Bitz and Classics sales has several positive (for them) effects. It reduces the amount of product codes in the system (which means easier inventory handling), stops the need to stockpile quite that many old moulds (I'd be willing to bet several of them will be scrapped to "free up space"), and reduces the amount of manual work required on behalf of the staff collecting the orders (it's easier to gather an order composed of only blisters and boxes as opposed to one of 25 separate loose components).

It's not a case of some evil overlord going "Mwahahahahahaaha!!!" in their volcano lair. It's a desperate attempt to cut costs.

All valid points but if GW was really pricing bitz at below the cost of producing and packaging them what does that say for their business skills?

I always assumed my $5 powerfist included the cost of inventory and packaging.

My own 2 cents? I've hesitantly decided to give it some time. Being a hardcore modeler and a die-hard converter, I will be the very first person to stand up and say that the current cessation of individual metal bits is absolutely absurd (from my point of view) and the current smattering of "bits packs" is laughable at best. I'm hoping they iron this out over the next month or three, but I'm willing to give them time.

However, if they really are going to bold-facedly turn their back on this entire aspect of the hobby that they market, then I'm left gobsmacked, and unsure of my future as a GW customer. Having to go through forums and word of mouth merely to acquire some Ork Kommando power klaw arms to fill out a special unit for my hobby is just preposterous...

Still can not find it where Neal said this?

I heard GW is chaning the word sprue to skrew-u

GW wants you to buy their box sets, blisters, and bitz packs. If you want bits then you will buy them packaged in whatever manner and quantity GW wishes to make them available.

Ravenous D wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Thats just stupid from a business standpoint. They are shutting off a sales channel. As they just shut off their own bitz lines (I almost dare you to find some type of bits remaining) this just kills a whole revenue stream FOR NO PURPOSE.

What's worse is GW ceasing to sell mail order only items (all the bitz I might add) to the indy stores at their retailers discount of 50%. If they want them they have to pay the same as the rest of us. So basically GW just smashed all the online bitz retailers who were making money off of them. Which doesnt make any sense because those bitz retailers were buying FROM GW, so squashing them only proves to lose them money.

It's typical GW though, screw the little guy as much as possible and still lose money. I don't understand how the company seems to think it's policy of "screwing over your customer base = profit".

Number one you need to stop talking number two your are telling incorrect statements

retailers did NOT have a mail order discount of 50% so either a you are misinformed or you are misinformed. Retailers
discount never was 50% not in the time i am aware of retailers discount through mail order is 35% which is why i know stores that wont order through mail order its not financially a good move for them

in fact retailers dont even get 50% when they buy their stock from gw they get is at only 45%

so please check yourself before you wreck yourself

and as a secondary thought the ony way GW can blackmail a site is if the site has a direct account with them if you do and dont do as they say they will close your account however if they buy from a distributor they cannot make you sstop selling anything

NAVARRO wrote:Ok thats like the guy that is just toooo fat and instead of stop eating he cuts his balls off to be lighter

Yet i cant see how do they save any money by chasing and hunting independent bitz providers? The warstore is mainly plastic bitz off sprues so they dont order bitz by catalog they order boxes.

Thats exactly it, GW knows what it's doing wrong but have the options of A) Be nice and risk losing more money or B) Keep gouging because it gets consistant money. Why fix their business when they can just gouge us more?

I mean look at the new bloodknights for the VC $75US and over $100 Canadian!

Rle68 wrote:

Number one you need to stop talking number two your are telling incorrect statements

retailers did NOT have a mail order discount of 50% so either a you are misinformed or you are misinformed. Retailers
discount never was 50% not in the time i am aware of retailers discount through mail order is 35% which is why i know stores that wont order through mail order its not financially a good move for them

in fact retailers dont even get 50% when they buy their stock from gw they get is at only 45%

so please check yourself before you wreck yourself

and as a secondary thought the ony way GW can blackmail a site is if the site has a direct account with them if you do and dont do as they say they will close your account however if they buy from a distributor they cannot make you sstop selling anything

Tell that to the store I work at, I'm using the numbers in Canada, I know in the US the numbers change slightly (as in they get an additional 5% discount for whatever reason).

Although you are correct about the mail order only discount being less then 50%, when we could get it I believe it was 40%, but now its 0%.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The cessation of GW Bitz and Classics sales has several positive (for them) effects. It reduces the amount of product codes in the system (which means easier inventory handling), stops the need to stockpile quite that many old moulds (I'd be willing to bet several of them will be scrapped to "free up space"), and reduces the amount of manual work required on behalf of the staff collecting the orders (it's easier to gather an order composed of only blisters and boxes as opposed to one of 25 separate loose components).

It's not a case of some evil overlord going "Mwahahahahahaaha!!!" in their volcano lair. It's a desperate attempt to cut costs.

All valid points but if GW was really pricing bitz at below the cost of producing and packaging them what does that say for their business skills?

I always assumed my $5 powerfist included the cost of inventory and packaging.

All I wanted to say is that it's a stupid oversimplification to say GW is doing these things out of the wickedness of its black little heart. There are reasons, not good ones but they're there.

I'm not sure they are so smart. Can one really believe they were losing money on the bitz service, considering how pricey it was? Bitz price increased steadily (ie, doubled every 3 years or so) to the point you would not save any money on bitz if you wanted 2 or 3 from a multipart miniature - it was the same cost than the miniature itself.

It only made sense if you wanted to save resources or used really high number of similar bitz.

I can't believe GW closes the bitz service to cut down costs, simply because I can't believe GW setting up any service losing money in the first place.

I think they just expect some people to buy complete kits instead of bitz and hope to make MORE money with this new situation.

Rle68 wrote:
so please check yourself before you wreck yourself

Awsome dude ! what are the prices like where you're from ? i assume you're from 1994, here in 2008 things are all that and a bag of chips.....

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with them reworking the bits service and once again putting the screws to the independant retailer if I actually thought they were going to do something about it. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I'm going to use my army as example of what typically happens and why GW could make money on this change, but probably won't.

I buy a box of CSM. I want twin-melta guns in the squad as I'm going to use them as for anti-tank. The core box contains a flamer, heavy bolter and plasma gun. It has ZERO melta guns. I also cannot buy a meltagun equiped CSM in blisters, they are either flamer or plasma gun. I means I have to order the Raptor melta gun bit in order to get the squad options I want. Without the bits, I either proxy (/wrists) or do without out.

Under GW logic, I should buy 1 box of CSM and 2 boxes of Raptors in order to get the options I want. I don't think this makes any sense and will drive me away from the hobby.

I don't know how many people remember this, but GW used to produce close combat sprues for CSM and SM that contained pistols, CCW and various power weapons. The sprues were cheap and most of the pieces could be used through out the army. I didn't feel like I was wasting my money.

GW should produce a sprue for each army that has all the crap that doesn't come in the box and possibly some extra "character" stuff people can use. For example, the CSM sprue would contain 1x meltagun, 1x left lightning claw, 1x right lightning claw, 1x power weapon axe, 2x chain axe, 2x left arm, 2x right arm, 1x combi-flamer, 1x combi-melta, 1x combi-plasma and maybe 1-3 other "chaos" bits. This way I can fill almost all the options I can take and don't feel cheated on spending a ton of money. The sprue also gives some options that other armys may want to use. This could EASILY be done for around $8 per sprue, probably around $6.

GW will probably do nothing if you want to know the truth.

Kotrin wrote:I'm not sure they are so smart. Can one really believe they were losing money on the bitz service, considering how pricey it was? Bitz price increased steadily (ie, doubled every 3 years or so) to the point you would not save any money on bitz if you wanted 2 or 3 from a multipart miniature - it was the same cost than the miniature itself.

What's stupid is not having bits prices cost more to buy individually than the actual blister/box. It should have started that way.

The ones I purchased were.

Man, I am beginning to think an evil god took over at GW. Just seems like the shoot themselves in the foot every time they do something like this. I think back in the day it was called a monopoly.

I have noticed that they are selling conversion kits on some of the GW sites. But what fun is it to create something that someone else did first.

Guess I should start selling my GW stuff.

Warrior 50

Kesher wrote:In conclusion we are still committed to providing the largest bits selection on the internet, at the best prices possible. We just invested in a larger facility to house and process bits orders, and expanded our mailing operation. We are committed to you as much as you are to us.

Thanks and Happy Gaming
Rob Baer
Founder BWBits
Evil Warmaster TheWarStore

The contrast between TheWarStore and GW is, well, stark.

How is it a Monopoly, they don't own the whole miniature wargaming market?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Techboss wrote:I buy a box of CSM. I want twin-melta guns in the squad as I'm going to use them as for anti-tank. The core box contains a flamer, heavy bolter and plasma gun. It has ZERO melta guns. I also cannot buy a meltagun equiped CSM in blisters, they are either flamer or plasma gun. I means I have to order the Raptor melta gun bit in order to get the squad options I want. Without the bits, I either proxy (/wrists) or do without out.

My CSM boxes have had Melta Guns in them.

Eric

Thats great but brilliantly beside the point.

proves how desparate and pathetic GW is. They think thier sales will improve by stomping out the competition. THey should work on improving themselves before pointing the finger at the little guy.

I saw that things like this where going to happen when they replaced Kirby with a marketing guy.

Marketing is all about getting people to buy stuff they don’t need, or don’t want.

This path became apparent when the Eldar came out. The removed all of the blisters for Eldar and just started to make Aspect Warriors in boxes of 6. Well, what do you do if you want a unit of 10? Well, before you could call GW and order the 4 extra guys which is a big hassle but you could do it, but not anymore. Now you have to buy 2 boxes and have 2 extra guys.

@Blackmoor, it is even worse with warpspiders. They come in boxes of 5, including the exarch. Try to build a unit of 10.

Darrian

MagickalMemories wrote:My CSM boxes have had Melta Guns in them.

Does it have 2x melta guns or only one per box (iron warriors box)?
Does it also have 2x flamer and plasma gun per box?
Lastly, does it contain a heavy bolter, missile launcher, autocannon AND lascannon in each box?

If not, you cannot field the sqaud in any configuration available in the codex and thus, except for heavy weapons, are buying bits to complete the squad.

My point still stands.

Oh noes! My Tactical Squad box is b0rk3n because it only has Missile Launcher & Flamer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh noes! My Tactical Squad box is b0rk3n because it only has Missile Launcher & Flamer.

For the price they ask for it, it should most certainly contain all the options needed to make that squad.

Kilkrazy wrote:Is "frame" the US word for "sprue"?

not particularly. I say sprue and I am in the US.. Frame might be what that person uses instead of sprue. but it is not a US specific thing..

stonefox wrote:

Kotrin wrote:I'm not sure they are so smart. Can one really believe they were losing money on the bitz service, considering how pricey it was? Bitz price increased steadily (ie, doubled every 3 years or so) to the point you would not save any money on bitz if you wanted 2 or 3 from a multipart miniature - it was the same cost than the miniature itself.

What's stupid is not having bits prices cost more to buy individually than the actual blister/box. It should have started that way.

that is how it started.. if you bought all the pieces to a model it would cost you more than just the model itself. I am not sure when GW made it it equal, but I do remember some dakkaites complaining about buying a model by bitz and it costing more than the model itself and the GW was screwing them because of it. To be honest, I think the bitz (arms, weapons etc should be made available at a mark up, and the main body or whatever metal piece is the basis of the model should only be available in a blister).. as for plastic bitz services, well that's a whole 'nother monster isn't it?

GW has been using the term 'frame' a lot lately. I'd guess they either feel:

1.) It's more correct (A Frame is an entire sub-assemley, where sprue is technically just the excess)

-or-

2.) They're tired of a certain class of players who think the word is 'spruce.'

(The latter was a pet peeve of mine when I posted on GW's own message boards.)

Blackmoor wrote:I saw that things like this where going to happen when they replaced Kirby with a marketing guy.

Marketing is all about getting people to buy stuff they don’t need, or don’t want.

Meanwhile at GW Headquarters...

TOM KIRBY: Hey, I got an idea! Instead of selling SM heavy weapons in blisters, let's sell them in box sets and let's not make the individual sprues available for purchase separately! And let's also do everything in our power to stop anyone else from making them available! What do you think Marketing Guy?

MARKETING GUY: That's the right idea Tom, but why stop there? At 2 per dev squad box, lascannons are still way too easy to obtain. So let's phase out tactical, devastator, assault, and command squad boxes along with the rhino, razorback, and SM commander boxes, and replace them with the SM battle company box. And make it a direct exclusive! Can you say $100 per lascannon? I can - CH-CHANG!! Our lascannon profits will increase x10! It's like a license to print money!! We can't lose!

TOM KIRBY: Brilliant! That's just the kind of business savvy we need here at GW! I can see you've got a bright future ahead of you, Marketing Guy! You're going straight to the top! In fact, I'm making you CEO! Tell the old CEO he's fired! What's his name again?

MARKETING GUY: Tom Kirby?

TOM KIRBY: Yes, tell Tom Kirby he's fired!

MARKETING GUY: But you're Tom Kirby!

TOM KIRBY: Oops! Darn, I already said it! I guess that means you're CEO now Marketing Guy! Congratulations!

MARKETING GUY: Gee, thanks!

And that's the story of how Tom Kirby stepped down as CEO of GW.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh noes! My Tactical Squad box is b0rk3n because it only has Missile Launcher & Flamer.

Tell me JohnHwang - why do you hate freedom?

I hate freedom because you let the terrorists win.

freedom is like a prison with glass walls

I thought freedom was just another word for nothing left to lose?

To be truly free you have to have nothing ...

I like my stuff, my sife, my kids, and my 40K miniatures.

I'll take my diminished freedom with all my nice crap, thank you

They'll never take my freedom...

BYE

Free! Live Free!(Harry Harrison Book)

I really think the idea of minimising access to your 'business' through crushing your 'proxy' distributers is about the dumbest thing you could do. If this Marketing guy does not think ANY exposure is good exposure for your business, he should get a job where failure is a pre-requisite.

Oh wait................he has.

This is definitely the sort of thing that kills the spirit that they try to say the hobby promotes. White Dwarf used to showcase armies like Dave Taylor's Adeptus Mechanicus army, and emphasize all the cool things that you could do with several random bits. I've made several large bits orders to build unique units like Cadian Rough Riders, and Adeptus Arbites. If my only choice had been to buy the heinous Attilan ones, I wouldn't have even purchased them.

As has been noted, this doesn't harm brick and mortar stores, it harms GW. The most mercenary thing they could have done is to eliminate the online bitz dealers and then maintain their own bits service. Then they could really gouge the people who want to buy bits. But it makes no sense to shut down the bits dealers and their own bits service. It is just eliminating a revenue stream and presenting a poor alternative that no one in their right mind would consider.

I know that in the last two years my purchases of GW products has plummeted. The arbitrary nerfing and pumping up of units, the utter lack of any sort of content in White Dwarf, rising prices, and the prospect of a game flopping new edition have prevented me from buying very many new figs. There always seems to be something on the horizon that makes me not want to invest any more money in the game.

I just realised that I can't do my Tallarn Rough Riders on Cold Ones any more.

Frackin' GW...

[EDIT]: Haha! Seems I beat the word sensor with that one. I'll edit it manually then...

BYE

Freedom isn't free. Freedom costs a buck 'o five.
Which is significantly cheaper than getting a melta for your squad, oddly enough.

I heartily agree that GW should sell boxes of standard troops, and sprues of upgrades. Granted, my main army is composed of solid blocks of pewter, so it wouldn't do me much good. It would, however, make my sub-armies more easy to deal with, and would increase the number of things I buy straight from GW (instead of on the secondary market) a great deal.

Well....

The re-cut chaos marine box does have a flamer, plasma and melta as well as a plasma pistol, powersword, powerfist and heavy bolter if I'm not mistaken.

The re-cut tactical squad box has a plasma, melta and flamer as well as sergeant bits.

The new Ork Boyz box has all the nob bitz (+powerclaw) and all the heavy weapons.

The new Eldar guardian boxes come with the heavy weapon platforms and several choices of weapons to mount.

So it seems like lately GW has been making an effort to put all the things you may want to use in their troop boxes.

so let me get this straight. GW drops their bitz service, switching to an inferior good in the form of new and lame packs. surprise surprise their inferior good doesn't sell because sane people are still offering the better product.

there are two ways to profit from an inferior good, lower prices or monopoly. since GW is the manufacturer they have a monopoly if they want it.

of course, this really just encourages me to improve my modeling skills to work around the lack of bitz. and in any case i'd rather pick up my phone than pay for stuff i don't want. /facepalm

Ravenous D wrote:As many of you know, a few years back GW basically black balled US internet retailers that used the shopping chart option. Well now since they decided that their bitz service was far better then everyone else’s they are going after internet retailers again that sell bits.

The warstore was recently giving 90 days by GW to shut down their bitz service shopping cart. So BWB has the options of shutting down, or switch to phone in/paper orders (a nightmare to some retailers).

The good news this affects the US only, so Canadian or UK bitz companies can still sell their product free of GWs tactics.

*edited of inflammatory references to monsters from the 30's and 40's*
-Drake

Let me enlighten you: GW does not let internet sales happen because a seller who has no overhead and can sell from his mom's closet and give a discount will sell more then a brick and mortar store. Without those stores, people won't have places to play in, or meet other gamers, or get into the hobby. It was a smart move to ensure fair competition for BnM stores.

As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

The other half of this is that even if you are a Bitz company the fact that GW cut their bitz service and turned it into a gouge-o-thon makes it almost impossible for online retailers to make a profit selling bits.

For example before an online retailer could order the bitz and get his retailers discount, but now GW has cut the discount for retailers when you buy direct for the "mail order only" (ALL their bitz) and you would have to buy the entire box in order to get your discount! So say I wanted to order 10 eldar heavy weapon sprues, that would mean an online retailer would have to have 10 of them from 10 different boxes.

T

The term gouging is used whenever someone objects to a businessman charging a price he deems fair, but the customer deems unfair. If you call up and want a bit, and some monkey has to go through a warehouse to find it, you don't think they should sell that bit for an extra 10 cents? Hey guess, what, they decided the small amount of money that bitz was bringing in wasn't worth it, so now you won't have to pay the 10 cents.

Your also incorrect in them slashing the discount. For the past couple of years its been the same.



I

can't wrap my head around their thinking, usually if your company is starting to go into a nose dive you try to find the problem and get youself upright, not swing it straight down and try and take out as many innocent people as you can.

It seems GWs motto is "f'em we'll take them for all they're worth before we crash!".

Since apocalypse was there way of being "nice guys" and that didn't pull in as much as they wanted, I guess they figure they'll go back to being the usual bastards that they are.

What's worse is GW ceasing to sell mail order only items (all the bitz I might add) to the indy stores at their retailers discount of 50%. If they want them they have to pay the same as the rest of us. So basically GW just smashed all the online bitz retailers who were making money off of them. Which doesnt make any sense because those bitz retailers were buying FROM GW, so squashing them only proves to lose them money.

It's typical GW though, screw the little guy as much as possible and still lose money. I don't understand how the company seems to think it's policy of "screwing over your customer base = profit".

Can you back this up with numbers? That apocalypse did not bring in as much as they wanted? Again, I heard sales were up by a lot. And while the company is not making as much profit as it would like, or none in some regions.....it is making profit overall. Even McDonald's has done poorly once in a while.

What makes me sick is that people feel they are entitled to low prices, that you feel that someone who wants to make money and chooses to price a product a certain price or to offer or not offer a service and charge for it is evil. It has become a sin somehow to work hard for your money, and be expected to make what you want. Do you go and complain in car forums that Chevrolet charges alot for Corvettes? Sure, they would sell more if they lowered their prices.

Go price up hobbies like golf, or scuba diving, or skydiving, and tell me how much those cost. And next time you post, get your facts right.

corinth wrote:so let me get this straight. GW drops their bitz service, switching to an inferior good in the form of new and lame packs. surprise surprise their inferior good doesn't sell because sane people are still offering the better product.

there are two ways to profit from an inferior good, lower prices or monopoly. since GW is the manufacturer they have a monopoly if they want it.

of course, this really just encourages me to improve my modeling skills to work around the lack of bitz. and in any case i'd rather pick up my phone than pay for stuff i don't want. /facepalm

Have you seen all of the new packs? Or are you prescient to know what they all are, and are making your judgement now?

You do realize that the bitz service was a small small small part of their business, but caused alot of work for them? More power to businesses that want to pay alot of money for sprues, do all the work of chopping them up, and then selling them, and having a ton of parts no one wants. Ditto for the metal box sets. I'm sure we'll be seeing some bitz millionaires all over the place.

Hellfury wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh noes! My Tactical Squad box is b0rk3n because it only has Missile Launcher & Flamer.

For the price they ask for it, it should most certainly contain all the options needed to make that squad.

For the price that Chevrolet charges for a Corvette, it should include the trophy girlfriend.

General Hobbs wrote:What is really sad is your utter ignorance and stupidity. Let me enlighten you: GW does not let internet sales happen because a seller who has no overhead and can sell from his mom's closet and give a discount will sell more then a brick and mortar store. Without those stores, people won't have places to play in, or meet other gamers, or get into the hobby. It was a smart move to ensure fair competition for BnM stores.

As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Go price up hobbies like golf, or scuba diving, or skydiving, and tell me how much those cost.

First off, the most successful reputable pre-ban internet sellers *were* B&M stores who managed to have a strong internet presence to complement their B&M sales.

Second, those of us who are actual adults have houses with garages and game rooms, so we aren't dependant upon a B&M store's hours / rules, nor do we need to compete with pimply adolescents for table space. Not all B&M stores are worthy of patronage - many of them are poorly-run and deserve to close a few months after opening. That said, we adults appreciate the Going Out Of Business sales.

People generally haven't had problems with the Warstore, but anything is possible.

Finally, compared to GW, golf isn't *that* expensive. Nowadays, you can get a set of clubs & kit for under $300. This gear will be much better than what a newbie can extract full usage from. If one limits play to municipal courses and such, greens fees can be kept under $500 for the year. Count $200 for balls, and $1k budget for the year isn't too bad under $100 per month.

Golf prices go up when you have to deal with a pesky rodent.

General Hobbs wrote:

As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Whats sad is you telling lies and slander without a shred of proof.

you have to be the only one I have ever heard bad things to say about the war store.

What makes me sick is that pukes like you feel you are entitled to low prices, that you feel that someone who wants to make money and chooses to price a product a certain price or to offer or not offer a service and charge for it is evil. It has become a sin somehow to work hard for your money, and be expected to make what you want. Do you go and whine in car forums that Chevrolet charges alot for Corvettes? Sure, they would sell more if they lowered their prices.

Go price up hobbies like golf, or scuba diving, or skydiving, and tell me how much those cost. And next time you post, get your facts right.

whats sad is that you think people SHOULD pay full price. Like we owe GW something.

Consumers SHOP. Doesnt matter what it is: house, car, appliances, GW products, golf stuff.

You can offer whatever you want and charge what you want, but we dont actually have to PAY what your asking. We can go elsewhere for it.

You wish us to price up gold, scuba diving or skydiving....but guess what? In your examples folks can and have comparisson shopped around for the best deals. If your going to use golf as an example, then we should be able to shop around for GW stuff like we do golkf clubs, no?

You cant have it both ways....

General Hobbs wrote:What is really sad is your utter ignorance and stupidity.

General Hobbs wrote:What makes me sick is that pukes like you feel you are entitled to low prices,

General Hobbs wrote:Christ, what a bunch of whiners.

Usually I issue warnings via PM, General Hobbs, but this was egregious enough to warrant a public message.

Personal attacks and insults are not tolerated here on Dakka. Please respond in a polite manner, and attack the message, not the poster. Dakka is a place for people to express themselves, and you attacked them because you disagree with them. You even leveled accusations against a retailer without any sort of proof; at least mitigate it with "I suspect" or "I heard that". I can understand being upset with other people's point of views, but do not take it out on them personally. Others have been warned for doing the same to you, and you need to follow the same rules.

Further violations of Dakka rules will result in a temporary suspension.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, Yakface, or any of the other mods.

General Hobbs wrote:GW does not let internet sales happen because a seller who has no overhead and can sell from his mom's closet and give a discount will sell more then a brick and mortar store. Without those stores, people won't have places to play in, or meet other gamers, or get into the hobby. It was a smart move to ensure fair competition for BnM stores.

In the USA, "online sellers" can only take orders (and give discounts, if they wish to) by phone/ fax/email/etc. but not by an online shopping cart. Even BnM stores that charge full price can not have an online shopping cart.

GW US wants to be the only place you can order from in the USA online with a shopping cart. It also wants to be the "only" place that has pictures to browse/see their products in the USA.

GW US cripples online sales to protect its IP (their claim), which they seem to be overly protective of here in the USA. GW US has even gotten ebay to remove auctions "to protect their IP" (while I write this, the ebay ad is at top ).

Strangely the other branches of GW don't seem to have these issues, because they allow online stores with pictures AND discounts. I use two online Canadian stores to browse GW product because they tend to have better descriptions/product info and more/better pictures than GW does on any of their sites.

General Hobbs wrote:As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Admittedly it might be well before my return to 40k, but I have never heard these "stories" about The War Store. I did hear rumors of this kind of behavior when the original Battle Wagon Bits started to sell boxed sets in addition to bits. I never had it happen to me nor did I see more than a few people online "claim" this happened to them.

Considering the number of times I have heard people complain of GW boxes missing/having broken/miscast parts, I would chalk this up to being GW's poor packaging quality, but I admit that it could have been a seller abusing GW policy of replacing parts that have issues.

General Hobbs wrote:
As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Oh man, i just cant qualify this level of argumentation. I have dealed with them and im in europe so extra complicated, yet i can only tell good things about them... on a online business trust can be shattered with irresponsable rumours and childish shady theories like yours, glad Neal has proven you wrong soooooo many times

[

whats sad is that you think people SHOULD pay full price. Like we owe GW something.

Consumers SHOP. Doesnt matter what it is: house, car, appliances, GW products, golf stuff.

You can offer whatever you want and charge what you want, but we dont actually have to PAY what your asking. We can go elsewhere for it.

You wish us to price up gold, scuba diving or skydiving....but guess what? In your examples folks can and have comparisson shopped around for the best deals. If your going to use golf as an example, then we should be able to shop around for GW stuff like we do golkf clubs, no?

You cant have it both ways...

Le me clarify something. I never said you SHOULD pay full price, just that if GW wants to charge X, they should not be casitigated for their pricing. If you can find a BnM store that sells at a discount, by all means shop there. You are supporting the store, which is the important thing.

And thats the big thing....that for gaming in general to prosper, people need to support the store. They need to go in and spend money at the store, or fewer and fewer people will get into gaming, and game companies will go out of business.

Internet sales has hurt more then just GW. It hurts all the gaming companies. I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

Gaming is different from golf, scuba diving etc in that you can go to a course and play, or hop in the ocean by yourself. To game, you have to find other people into the hobby, and you need to have a place to play. BnM stores are where you can do that. They are the places that are keeping gaming alive.

General Hobbs wrote:
As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

I don't want to go OT but I have to speak in defence of Neal. I had a lot of problems with rude sales people at my nearest (F)LGS. So I have done all my buying through the Warstore as of late because of their level of professionalism and integrity. I found Neal was extremely polite and efficient and that any snafus that have come up in the transactions have been immediatly taken care of. Give your sources for a statement like that or give it a rest.

General Hobbs wrote:
Le me clarify something. I never said you SHOULD pay full price, just that if GW wants to charge X, they should not be casitigated for their pricing. If you can find a BnM store that sells at a discount, by all means shop there. You are supporting the store, which is the important thing.

And thats the big thing....that for gaming in general to prosper, people need to support the store. They need to go in and spend money at the store, or fewer and fewer people will get into gaming, and game companies will go out of business.

And then your anology falls apart here. Again.

GW SHOULD be casitigated for their tactics. Your "GW needs game shops to prosper" falls apart if you look at GW as a whole.

*I* played when there were not shops, and they prospered.

GW prospers outside the US, and STILL allows online sales. You cant justify non-internet sales in one region with the "brick and morters need help" in just one area when its not doing it elsewhere. Doesnt make sense.

People were buying a TON of stuff online, and GW was healthier in 2001 then it was 2002-present day. More shops have closed I'd hazard in the years since the ban.....so exactly how was it a help?

Internet sales has hurt more then just GW. It hurts all the gaming companies. I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

Privateer press FLOURISHED in the time that GW removed internet sales....because you could get the product when you wanted it.

Thats just a sad story. And irrelevant to the matter.....one place doesnt make a whole. The store I use to play stopped selling LotR once the ban came into place because the vast majority of their oreders.....came from online.

Gaming is different from golf, scuba diving etc in that you can go to a course and play, or hop in the ocean by yourself. To game, you have to find other people into the hobby, and you need to have a place to play. BnM stores are where you can do that. They are the places that are keeping gaming alive.

if golf and the others are different from gaming, then stop using them as an anology. People like YOU keep bringing it up.

you dont need a store for gaming....we didnt back in 1990 and we dont now. We found folks and just played.

PP did have release issues...when they couldn't match demand.

malfred wrote:PP did have release issues...when they couldn't match demand.

Irrelevant to the discussion...but correct.

Part of their demand problems was that you could get the product! Online helped them make huge inroads...and online vendors liek white of your eyes(who I beleive arent around) helped get it out there.

There is a reason GW's unit sales and money slumped in the US....after the ban. You can track it in their reports.

The USA more than other countries needs internet sales because the area is huge and the population is spread out and it's impossible to cover it with shops.

General Hobbs wrote:I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

Many businesses sadly find it easier to just blame the internet for their woes than to examine what it is they're doing wrong.

People turning up to events with product bought elsewhere happens regardless of whether or not they can buy it on the internet. Particularly in miniature gaming where tournament goers are often veterans who haven't bought models in years.

A store-run event provides a captive audience. If you can't see some sort of return from it (even if it's just in soft drink and chocolate) then that's down to how you're running your event, not to whether or not they can buy their toys on the internet.


The funniest part of all this for me has always been the idea that stopping internet sales in one country somehow stops people from buying online at all... and is the strongest clue for me (assuming that the people running GW US can't really be that stupid) that this really is simply an IP issue for them, rather than anything to do with 'saving' B&M stores.

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA more than other countries needs internet sales because the area is huge and the population is spread out and it's impossible to cover it with shops.

Indeed and same in europe... if it wasnt for the net I could not buy most of the minis I collect these days.

General Hobbs wrote:
As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Just to jump on this, I'm overseas as well and only deal with the Warstore. Never had any problems with them, even with complicated bitz orders, and despite crossing the pacific ocean everything has arrived perfectly, intact, and within 2 weeks.

I don't give anyone else my business.

General Hobbs wrote:Internet sales has hurt more then just GW. It hurts all the gaming companies.

I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

To game, you have to find other people into the hobby, and you need to have a place to play. BnM stores are where you can do that. They are the places that are keeping gaming alive.

Totally untrue. A lot of companies would never have been able to reach critical mass of sales if they had to depend on B&M distribution. WotC wouldn't exist if not for being able to grow their games via Internet sales.

If a store isn't making money on Magic and Clix, they're doing something very, very wrong. Both of those systems are practically licenses to print money. WotC practically goes out of their way to help store owners make money via in-store events like FNM. Things like Booster Draft and Sealed are should be pure bank for the store. It sounds to me like your store owner just didn't execute very well.

As I noted above, B&M stores aren't the only place to play. Classrooms, garages, and basements are all excellent alternatives.

Man, there is alot of troll feeding going on in this thread.

Arguing against a bunk set of posts isn't going to make you right, it just gives credence and empowers the poster to continue trolling.

The baffling part is this same troll gets warned numerous times and the troll is still around.

This is why Dakka REALLY needs an Ignore function. Pronto.

The whole "Protecting Brick and Mortar" stores is an interesting angle.

As someone mentioned it, I'll say that the same POV is used for Scuba diving gear. A number of manufacturers don't allow internet sales of their equipment because they want to protect walk-in stores that provide training (important in SCUBA), maintenance (also a big thing!), and similar.

In many cases, the stuff is available online, it's just considered "Grey Market" and may or may not receive proper warranty service or free parts on maintenance, etc.

Still, there's big discounts available online as long as you are OK with other manufacturers. I like my local dive shop but I'm caught between a desire to support them and a desire to keep a few bucks in my wallet. It is, ultimately, very similar to how I can get with a game store if they are responsive to my needs.

In this case GW is one manufacturer, albeit one that has effectively made it's own niche in a an already small niche. They really need to decide what kind of game (or games) they want and make that message clear so people can jump in or move on as appropriate.

I don't get this "support the B&M" store bit at all.

Last I looked selling toy soldiers wasn't a charitable activity. Folks don't set up a wargaming store in order to make a better society! Nope, they are in it for a profit. Or at least to earn a living.

Now I'm not going to go and deliberately hurt someone's business, but I work hard for my money. I'm not going to go and spend 25% more on my hobby just because it'll make someone cry if I don't.

If I want somewhere to go to play games and eat cheetos with my gaming buddies, then I should be prepared to pay for that service. I shouldn't expect people to subsidise my needs by paying over the odds for miniatures that they can buy 20% cheaper online when they are going to use them in their own basement.

To my mind, those that expect to game for free on tables someone else has built funded out of the sales to people who won't enjoy those benefits are whinging freeloaders and they need to get a reality check!

Most gaming happens at home or in clubs, not in stores. So why shouldn't most sales be over the internet?

Ok, er, I think?

I gotta agree that this stuff about supporting B&M stores is just silly. All manner of business opportunities are opened up by selling online, and as the War Store is a great example of, selling in B&M and online is a great way to help even out your cash stream. Far too many people complain that "X is killing our industry!" when the fact is it is their own inability to adapt to a changing market that is dooming them. Creative Destruction is a lynch pin of all human advancement, with new ideas and systems necessarily replacing the old as we move forward. You might as well complain that the internet is destroying the post services because it is easier to send an email than to write a letter.

Not to mention the fact that no specialty store has a 100% chance of surviving in any case, generally a lot lower (I have read as low as 15% make it past their 5th year.) As nice as having a store in your local mall is, I would be willing to bet that just as many people got started at a club, or by some other venue eg. picked up a copy at a comic shop, or whever they buy D&D stuff.

Come to think of it, GW doesn't "officially" sell their rules etc. on Amazon, do they? That's just madness. I can maybe see not selling at Wal-Mart like WotC, but not hitching your cart to Amazon seems like you desire to not reach a large market.

quite honestly.. someone needs to show me some case law that allows a company to stop me from selling my properly purchased product how i want.

they want to claim intellectual property then fine dont use their pictures

if i break down my own bought product, use my own pictures, how i sell them is my own business

and until i see some case law stating otherwise my response to GW is to go straight to hell. I do believe there is this thing called restraint of trade, and monopilization. I dont know how it works overseas but if someone has the guts to tell GW to go pound sand im behind them

Now if the warstore has an account with gw i can see why they would comply. Because if they do not GW will close his account.

Now anyone can buy from a distributor it would just cost an extra 5%. Are you all willing to pay that cost? if so ill start a bitz service right away.

RLE, there isn't any case law that I'm aware of, but I'm pretty sure that *I* don't be the guy who pays the lawyers to set the precedent.

Well, there are two factors, of course, to every legal challenge:

1) the legal nature of the case
2) the practical nature of the case

Since even a victory over GW at the earliest possible stage (a motion to dismiss) would probably run over a grand, it's an expensive proposition, regardless of how right you are.

As to the actual legal issues, I wouldn't even know where to begin a search on this type of caselaw. I do know that GW has copywritten virtually every unit type, so for example having a webpage with "Dire Avenger" bitz would violate GW's copyright.

GW can always exert pressure through the distributors ( I think alliance carries GW), and use the contract to shut off the supply of product.

I'm sure if the legal issue was truely cut and dry, somebody would have challenged GW on it by now.

Ravenous wrote:What's worse is GW ceasing to sell mail order only items (all the bitz I might add) to the indy stores at their retailers discount of 50%. If they want them they have to pay the same as the rest of us. It's typical GW though, screw the little guy as much as possible and still lose money. I don't understand how the company seems to think it's policy of "screwing over your customer base = profit".

Hmm, No.
1) Retailers don't get 50% off anything. Max discount is 45%, in the US at least.
2) I can still place orders through mailorder at the same discount I've always been able to, 35% off.
3) The change in bitz that has arrived, is simply one hell of a lot less bitz. I can still order the entire bitz catalog, and get my discount on anything Mailorder sells. They just don't sell as much.
4) I'm actually not really feeling too screwed over as a retailer. Now, as a gamer, I will miss all those bitz. We will certainly sell less bitz now, but I can still get anything that is available, and have full access to anything Mailorder gets.

Polonius wrote:Well, there are two factors, of course, to every legal challenge:

1) the legal nature of the case
2) the practical nature of the case

Since even a victory over GW at the earliest possible stage (a motion to dismiss) would probably run over a grand, it's an expensive proposition, regardless of how right you are.

As to the actual legal issues, I wouldn't even know where to begin a search on this type of caselaw. I do know that GW has copywritten virtually every unit type, so for example having a webpage with "Dire Avenger" bitz would violate GW's copyright.

GW can always exert pressure through the distributors ( I think alliance carries GW), and use the contract to shut off the supply of product.

I'm sure if the legal issue was truely cut and dry, somebody would have challenged GW on it by now.

I would love to hear that GW called Alliance...If you wanted to be around for the death of GW that would be their death knell they would get sued for colusion sp? and a few other things i dont remember the actual names for my law classes were 20 years ago

ill break it down for you

i buy from distributor x

i then have the legal right to sell my product anyway i see fit. if i can comply with copyright law then GW can go pound sand, im not selling it new or maybe i a. But selling things aftermarket has been going on longer than gw has been around so there is some case law already established. now with start up costs of about 4k i could do a full on Bitz shop... once done i would send a direct letter to gw telling them what im doing and begging them to interfere

If they so much as even breathed on me wrong can you say counter suit... its not a question of david vs. goliath its the question of right and wrong

Im not the biggest fan of TWS for some other reasons but if they closed down because of the account angle i can respect that but if they did it for the fear factor then ... i have a different opinion

Mikhalia is absolutely correct with the numbers i posted this in another thread already or maybe this one i dont know

Even if the case law is cut and dry, it's not worth doing.

GW can drag this on for years because they've got the resources and incentive to do so. I see no reason why they wouldn't counter-sue for misappropriation of IP and copyright infringment. At that point, the smaller guy is locked into a death spiral that only ends with bankruptcy.

If you want to win, you need to be willing to spend very serious amounts of money at a rate of $200+ per hour. Minimum.

And then, the judge or jury might get things wrong, and render the wrong verdict.

Plus, there's appeals.

And when all is said and done, you might see any judgement and award cut down to a pittance.

So you could easily be right, with the law and facts on your side, and still lose everything to a bunch of high-priced lawyers. Or a small mistake.


For reference on just how stupid stuff can get, check out groklaw.net - SCO has a lawsuit that has cost both sides millions upon millions all for nothing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Even if the case law is cut and dry, it's not worth doing.

GW can drag this on for years because they've got the resources and incentive to do so. I see no reason why they wouldn't counter-sue for misappropriation of IP and copyright infringment. At that point, the smaller guy is locked into a death spiral that only ends with bankruptcy.

If you want to win, you need to be willing to spend very serious amounts of money at a rate of $200+ per hour. Minimum.

And then, the judge or jury might get things wrong, and render the wrong verdict.

Plus, there's appeals.

And when all is said and done, you might see any judgement and award cut down to a pittance.

So you could easily be right, with the law and facts on your side, and still lose everything to a bunch of high-priced lawyers. Or a small mistake.


For reference on just how stupid stuff can get, check out groklaw.net - SCO has a lawsuit that has cost both sides millions upon millions all for nothing.

I couldnt agree with you more
however, with the sad state of GW'S financials do you think they will be able to spend the millions it will cost to pursue or defend the suit? Probably not

thats the wonderful thing about retainers John, its up to the lawyer to get the work done to get his cut. Not to mention all the bad press GW would get from such a nasty court fight and it would go public

there is the mentality at GW that what works under UK law is also good for the US.. i think we all know that doesnt work here

its all academic anyway... they closed down for whatever reason

sad but thats the way the ball bounces

Rle68 wrote:there is the mentality at GW that what works under UK law is also good for the US..

Not sure where you get that idea, since it's only GW US that is restricting internet sales. There is no such restriction in the UK, or anywhere else in the world.

This was solely GW US's doing. Nothing whatsoever to do with what works in the UK.

GW only needs to spend enough to bankrupt the other guy, which is quite a bit more than any game store (or game store consortium) can reasonably afford.

Retainers only work when the lawyer has a shot at rolling the dice for big money (i.e. GM), or a nearly sure thing. In the case of a money-losing company tied to a niche market, in a country with the most Draconian IP laws in the world, no lawyer is going to accept such a case on retainer. The odds aren't high enough, and the potential payoff is too low.

If it becomes a large enough fight over IP rights, with the potential to further expand corporate IP rights internationally, Disney will pick up the entire tab and GW won't need to spend another penny.

GW's lawyers are quite good at understanding US IP law, which is why they're only pulling this stunt in the US. They know they don't have a prayer anywhere else in the world, so that is why the US is like this.

I would love to hear that GW called Alliance...If you wanted to be around for the death of GW that would be their death knell they would get sued for colusion sp? and a few other things i dont remember the actual names for my law classes were 20 years ago

ill break it down for you

i buy from distributor x

i then have the legal right to sell my product anyway i see fit. if i can comply with copyright law then GW can go pound sand, im not selling it new or maybe i a. But selling things aftermarket has been going on longer than gw has been around so there is some case law already established. now with start up costs of about 4k i could do a full on Bitz shop... once done i would send a direct letter to gw telling them what im doing and begging them to interfere

If they so much as even breathed on me wrong can you say counter suit... its not a question of david vs. goliath its the question of right and wrong

Im not the biggest fan of TWS for some other reasons but if they closed down because of the account angle i can respect that but if they did it for the fear factor then ... i have a different opinion

Mikhalia is absolutely correct with the numbers i posted this in another thread already or maybe this one i dont know

You are incorrect. Leegins Vs PSKS, heard in the Supreme Court, pretty much rules that a manufacturer of a product can tell a retailer or producer how much the product can sell for.

Which means if GW wants to tell all its indie retailers they have to sell without a discount....they have to. If they tell a distributor like Alliance that the products it sells have to be sold at X price....thats what they have to be sold out.

Of course, prior agreements can curtail this.

You can read some of how this applies in a blog from Ryan Dancey, formerly of WOTC: ( actually, it looks like the blog has been removed, but you can read the responses, or do a google search for Ryan Dancey Supereme Court and read what other bloggers have said.) http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/Entries/2007/6/28_Earthquake!.html

What I like is that Dancey supports what I have said earlier in this thread, which alot of "experts" have refuted, without proof...that is, online discounters hurt Brick and MOrtar stores, which are needed to recruit people into gaming.

When I first read Dancey's blog, it was like being vindicated....

What's so hard about this? If GW makes it too difficult to carry the product, stop carrying it. Many stores have. If consumers feel GW is neglecting them, they should stop giving them dollars. FLGSs carry many other fun games (or can get them...)

Other wise shut up and shell out. ;-P

jmurph wrote:What's so hard about this? If GW makes it too difficult to carry the product, stop carrying it. Many stores have. If consumers feel GW is neglecting them, they should stop giving them dollars. FLGSs carry many other fun games (or can get them...)

Other wise shut up and shell out. ;-P

Many stores have.....it's my understanding that GW has added something like 25% more stores carrying their product...taking into account these many stores dropping the line...which means GW is expanding.

But you are correct...instead of whining that you cannot afford GW products, you should go play other games. Golf is a fun game, everyone should try that.

Heneral Gobbs wrote:instead of whining that you cannot afford GW products, you should go play other games.

It's pathetic that you:

A). Think that's a valid argument.
B). Think that's a valid solution.

BYE

General Hobbs wrote:Many stores have.....it's my understanding that GW has added something like 25% more stores carrying their product...taking into account these many stores dropping the line...which means GW is expanding.

It depends on what percentage have dropped the range and how much stock each are selling. We won't see the full picture until next summer.

Why golf and not Flames of War or Warmachine or AT-43?

I think GW is within their rights to do what they're doing, but I also think it is outside the spirit of the hobby they're in the business of promoting.

If someone wants to get around GW's bullying they need to start their company and run their site out of one those other countries, Canada lets say, that GW can't get away with this and then set up a "distribution facility" for the bits and GW stuff in the US.

Would that work?

And, that's a lot of hoops to jump through for something that might not really be worth it, business-wise.

I really, really, don't want to argue either side in this, but don't mind popping in some points:

-correct that GW, at least in the US, has been adding a lot of new independent accounts. Or returning ones. They are much better to deal with in the last few years.

-A manufacturer does have some rights on how their product is to be sold, and recently, even at what price. It can't be arbitrary, and does rely on the agreements they have with distributors, who then pass on the rules to who they sell to. IE. WOTC tells Alliance it can't sell to an online discounter, and Alliance has to agree to that, or risk not getting product from WOTC.

-Warstore/Neal/BWBitz may have a more complicated agreement with GW. Last I knew, they were considered a distributor by GW. This gives them a better discount over other independent stores, but also comes with a lot more restrictions.

-There was an odd case years and years ago, where Mavel stopped various small manufacturers from using their products to make other products. Things like 3-D displays made from trading cards, or laminating a cover from a spiderman comic onto a clockface. The claim was that the goods purchased from Marvel, through their distributors or stores, were being used in a way not intended by Marvel, and that the incorporation of their copyrighted products to make something else, which was then sold, violated their copyright.

Not sure if the last one actually was held up in court, or if everyone just quit doing whatever they were doing when they got the cease and desist letter.

Question: The original BWBitz had agreed with GW not to use a shopping cart with their bitz, and to not use pictures of GW product (I think?). Is that the problem now, or is GW objecting to even the sale of broken up product.

The latter would be odd, since it sure isn't competing with their own bitz service, now that they pretty much nuked that themselves.

George Spiggott wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:Many stores have.....it's my understanding that GW has added something like 25% more stores carrying their product...taking into account these many stores dropping the line...which means GW is expanding.

It depends on what percentage have dropped the range and how much stock each are selling. We won't see the full picture until next summer.

Why golf and not Flames of War or Warmachine or AT-43?

I picked golf randomly. Or maybe because in my region there are alot of golf courses, and several game stores where Flames of War sells a bit and Warmachine and AT-43 are sucking up overhead and inventory.

I could have picked Settlers of Cataan, or squash. The point is, I agree with the poster. Rather then complain about prices, complain about business practices most people don't understand, just stop buying GW product and go play something else.

It's like dating a woman who makes you miserable....you are only putting yourself through the misery...ditch her and find someone who treats you well.

Hmm gamers...women....not a good analogy.

You could say the miserable 40k player is the AFC (average frustrated chump) that falls for a HB10(hot babe) but suffers from one-itis so doesn't go for the other chicks. He instead hopes to move from the friends ladder to the mate ladder.

Ladder Theory and The Game applied to warhammer. It's the only way gamers will understand.

When discussions of GW gaming start including the phrase "with benefits", something is very, very wrong.

Personally, I think the Crazy-Hot Scale might be a better reference point for how we relate to GW gaming.

I am sorry to say that Northern Europe will suffer the same fate as North America.

One of our two largest online retailers annonced that "GW will stop with bitz service" (in other words they have been told that they cannot sell bits throu their store after a not too distant date).


I wonder why they have done this move? It isn't realy a big deal, or do they so desperatly want people to order from the GW online-store in favour of their local store / favorite online store?


Just sounds odd and compleatly out of context... But hey! It's GW we are talking about! Should we realy be surpriced at all? *sigh*

Sikil wrote:One of our two largest online retailers annonced that "GW will stop with bitz service" (in other words they have been told that they cannot sell bits throu their store after a not too distant date).

I suspect that you're confusing 'bitz sellers' with 'GW's Bits Service'

GW is no longer selling bits, aside from in they're pre-made packs. That means that retailers who formerly ordered bits from GW will no longer be able to do so.

That's not the problem with BWB... they sell bits by buying boxes from GW, breaking them down into components, and selling those components individually.

GW aren't stopping them from doing this. They're just stopping them from doing so through an online store, which is simply standard GW US policy, not something specifically targeting bits sellers.

You know, there is a easy way to make GW stop killing itself.

Simply make a Economical Foundation, with some form of income (gamers buyng shares?).

Make the Foundation buy 51% of the shares in GW (shouldn't cost too much after the last years nose-dive), or at least the shares that are currently available on the stock exchange. Now, the gamers who cared enoth to buy shares in the Fondation can play as much as they want with their personal puppet. As long as all mambers agree and you own 51% of the shares. Else lobby at someone who might agree among the other owners of GW.


If I had the spare cash, I'd gladly buy GW. As is, however, I might only be able to buy 1% if I sell my appartment and my other stocks.

Anyway...

What an exceptional idea. It's a wonder that nobody's organised such a thing in the past.

After all, a bunch of gamers who are incapable of agreeing on whether or not you should be able to draw LOS through a Wraithlords legs, or whether a Shoota Nob can have a power klaw, are surely more than capable of collectively running a multi-million-dollar, multi-national company...

insaniak wrote:
After all, a bunch of gamers who are incapable of agreeing on whether or not you should be able to draw LOS through a Wraithlords legs, or whether a Shoota Nob can have a power klaw, are surely more than capable of collectively running a multi-million-dollar, multi-national company...

Cant be any worse than the innate decisions by GW in the past....You have been watching what they've been doing, right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Heneral Gobbs wrote:instead of whining that you cannot afford GW products, you should go play other games.

It's pathetic that you:

A). Think that's a valid argument.
B). Think that's a valid solution.

BYE

I personally thinks its a very valid argument and solution. Talk with your wallets not your internet

beef wrote:I personally thinks its a very valid argument and solution. Talk with your wallets not your internet

No way. As a publicly-held company, GW really does pay much more serious attention to people who sit on their asses to on Web forums and "sign" Internet petitions. Actual cash sales are meaningless to them.

Oh, wait...

So,..

GW tells Warstore and everyone else doing online sales they can't use a shopping cart....
The original BWBitz was told by GW they couldn't use a shopping cart...
They decide to sell the business to Warstore...
GW tells Warstore they can't use a shopping cart...

Not arguing rights or wrongs, or legality, but why would what happened be a surprise to anyone? They had to see that coming.

Mikhaila-So,..

GW tells Warstore and everyone else doing online sales they can't use a shopping cart....
The original BWBitz was told by GW they couldn't use a shopping cart...
They decide to sell the business to Warstore...
GW tells Warstore they can't use a shopping cart...

Not arguing rights or wrongs, or legality, but why would what happened be a surprise to anyone? They had to see that coming.

Spot on. How would the 'General' shopping cart rule NOT transfer?

beef wrote:Talk with your wallets not your internet

Here here! I agree wholeheartedly. Who uses the internet as a means of communication anyhow? Poppycock I say! Whenever I want to make my opinion heard I always use my wallet exclusively.

For example, a few months ago I wanted to let gorgon know that I didn't much care for GW's treatment of the LatD. At first I thought maybe I should post my opinion on one of the numerous threads about the subject or perhaps even send him a private message. I had almost forgotten that the most effective way to communicate is through my wallet! For shame! Luckily I caught myself in time. So rather than tell him using my internet (which would have been the epitome of foolishness), I simply decided not to buy the new Chaos codex! Now when gorgon looks at GW's sales figures for fiscal year 2007 he will clearly deduce from the numbers that I didn't buy the Chaos codex and that I don't like how GW invalidated the LatD list. And to think, had I used the internet my message might never have reached him!

Edit: I just remembered - I should have used my wallet to communicate this message, not the internet!! What have I done?!

Edit: Oh god! I did it again!