I played this list yesterday (for the second time) versus a godzilla list (7 MC/2 thropes and 32 genestealers) @1750 and lost. The elite devourer fexes really chewed me up. I think the problem was that I held 2 term squads in reserve and they didn't come in until round three. I also did not get the first turn in either game. I am going to give the list another go as I made some mistakes that I can easily correct and learned some strategy during the game I didn't realize before.

Would it be better to just place all the termies and move up to shoot? What is the sounder tactic, too deep strike or not to deep strike? My original plan is to place the HQ and deep strike the elites.

@1750
Master
Term. armor/pair of lightning claws/teleport homer
Term. Command squad 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2

Epistolary
Term. armor/storm shield/teleport homer/FoTA/VoT
Term/ Command 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Tac 1x6
lascannon

Tac 1x6
lascannon

Tac 1x6
lascannon

Pretty clear that you shouldn't DS. Those ACs are your primary means of taking out MCs at range. Losing multiple rounds of shooting with 4 of those ACs is unacceptable, and DSing is not really much of a help when it comes to getting those Termies into CC--you'd need to land within 6" to actually get to assault them!

Here's what I recommend, if possible: Dump the Space Marine Codex and get yourself the Dark Angels book. Then dump all those Terminators, and break out full Devastator squads with Multi-Meltas. Before the game break these squads down into Combat Squads, with two Multi-Meltas in each. This will give you six units of two Multi-Meltas that you can use to erase his Carnifexes. Concentrate your fire on each Carnifex in turn and kill it before moving onto the next. Having two Multi-Meltas in each squad will let you avoid over-kill and help you to dispose of the Monstrous Creatures quickly and efficiently.

Similarly take full Tactical Squads, with a Lascannon and Flamethrower. Break these down into Combat Squads, and send a Combat Squad with the Flamethrower forwards to roast the Genestealers, while keeping the Veteran Sergeant back with the Lascannon.

What kind of bs advice is that? I'm not going to touch whether or not it would work, but you've basically told him to throw out his entire army and replace it with another army, and not just another army, but an army constructed from another codex. You might as well tell him to switch to Eldar or Tau.

Well, if you think about the difference between the sort of army that I proposed in my advice and the army that he took, you can see the advice about tactics that I gave him.

For your convenience, let me restate it: In dealing with any Warhammer 40k army you want to be able to distribute your firepower effectively and efficiently, so that you don't waste weapons against things that they are ineffective against, and you don't over-use effective weapons. Likewise forcing your opponent to distribute their firepower ineffectively and inefficiently is good, and maximizing the number of units that you take does this.

One of the problems with Deep Strike, to complement one of its bonuses, is that Deep Striking units are not on the board for the first turn and perhaps several turns after that. While they're not on the board they cannot be harmed, but they also cannot harm. Monstrous Creatures have good stamina against harm, and so you need to start chiseling away at them from the start. While the squads with Lascannons are a good start, the squads themselves are small and vulnerable to the sort of firepower that a 'Dakkafex' can put out.

Combat Squads are likewise vulnerable to this firepower, but they have the advantage of adding a unit to your total, and allowing you to effeciently distribute your firepower to the targets it will be effective against. Five guys with a Lascannon can sit back at the board edge and shell the advancing Monstrous Creatures, while the other five guys can deal with any Infiltrating nasties like the Genestealers, unlike a full squad that might have to ignore one for the other but resist the return attacks better.

If he's going to use the Terminators, then he needs to have them on the board from the start and should mix up the Assault Cannons with Cyclone so that he can start hurting the Monstrous Creatures before they advance into Assault Cannon range. If the Terminators move forward the first turn or two to around 20"-23" away from the lead Monstrous Creatures, then they can backpedal towards the stationary Lascannon squads, while the Flamethrower squads sacrifice themselves dealing with the Genestealers.

By the the time the Monstrous Creatures get into range for shooting and assaults, he should have reduced the Monstrous Creatures by two or three.

So given that he cannot take the army that I recommend, he can still employ the same tactics, by being able to engage the Tyranids on Turn 1 with long range firepower, killing them one by one with concentrated fire (no too much concentrated fire, else some of it will go to waste), and using small units to dissipate the efficiency of return fire and assaults.

Something that he can do, for example and besides switching up one Assault Cannon per Terminator Squad with a Cyclone Launcher, is ditch the Teleport Homers, and fancy close-combat weapons such as the Lightening Claws and Storm Shield, and the extra men in his Troop squads so that he can afford another couple of small troop squads armed with Flamethrowers to toast the Genestealers. He doesn't need the Teleport Homers because nothing would be Deep Striking, and he doesn't need the close-combat knick-knacks because the strategy is based around out-shooting the Tyranids.

Just top out your las-plasma combo against the MC armies.. 6 man las-plas some devastator teams with lascannon-missile launcher-plasma gun.

And top it off with terminators instead, maybe just 1 squad. Wich you dont DS but just try to get as many shots off from as possible and then finish it with your PFs if things go bad.

Kallbrand wrote:Just top out your las-plasma combo against the MC armies.. 6 man las-plas some devastator teams with lascannon-missile launcher-plasma gun.

And top it off with terminators instead, maybe just 1 squad. Wich you dont DS but just try to get as many shots off from as possible and then finish it with your PFs if things go bad.

OMG!!!11!! Boolshiat!!11! He mite as wel throw owt his armeee for Eldars!!!111!!eleventy!

Meh, just kidding.

Personally, you have a pretty decent list for taking out his. I would have made sure I chewed up the stealers with the AC's first, and had the lascannons chew up the dakkafexes. Once the stealers are gone, you should just assault the fexes with the termies.

Nurglitch, dissemble more? Let's look at your first post:

Here's what I recommend, if possible: Dump the Space Marine Codex and get yourself the Dark Angels book.

Transferability to his list: 0

Then dump all those Terminators, and break out full Devastator squads with Multi-Meltas.

Transferability: 0

Before the game break these squads down into Combat Squads, with two Multi-Meltas in each.

Transferability: 0

This will give you six units of two Multi-Meltas that you can use to erase his Carnifexes.

Transferability: 0

Concentrate your fire on each Carnifex in turn and kill it before moving onto the next.

Dingdingding, we have a winner. Too bad it is so obvious that you don't even need to have played 40k to realise the soundness of this advice.

Having two Multi-Meltas in each squad will let you avoid over-kill and help you to dispose of the Monstrous Creatures quickly and efficiently.

Transferability: 0

Similarly take full Tactical Squads, with a Lascannon and Flamethrower.

Transferability: 0

Break these down into Combat Squads, and send a Combat Squad with the Flamethrower forwards to roast the Genestealers, while keeping the Veteran Sergeant back with the Lascannon.

Transferability: 0

Waffle all you like. Your reply was useless.

And yes, Kallbrand's was just as bad.

Kudos, though, for actually saying something in your latest post that had some bearing on the list dornsfist stated that he was using and will continue to use.

Combat Squads are likewise vulnerable to this firepower, but they have the advantage of adding a unit to your total, and allowing you to effeciently distribute your firepower to the targets it will be effective against.

dornsfist's squads are jsut as capable of distributing their firepower efficiently. They are 6-man squads with a lascannon and no special. What is your point?

As for "adding a unit to your total", this would only be relevant if you were short of Troops slots, and dornsfist is not. If he wants to add to his unit count, he can simply purchase another squad.

If he's going to use the Terminators, then he needs to have them on the board from the start and should mix up the Assault Cannons with Cyclone so that he can start hurting the Monstrous Creatures before they advance into Assault Cannon range. If the Terminators move forward the first turn or two to around 20"-23" away from the lead Monstrous Creatures, then they can backpedal towards the stationary Lascannon squads, while the Flamethrower squads sacrifice themselves dealing with the Genestealers.

He should certainly start them on the board, but I don't see the need for Cyclones. They're less effective against fexes and even less effective against stealers (relevant in case you take down a fex that was screening stealers, giving you a shot at them), and they're almost useless against Warp Fielded Flyrants.

As for backpedalling, a 36" range AC is just as suited to kiting dakkafexes as a 48" range ML is, and you don't need to kite gunfexes because of their relatively low lethality vs Termies.

Something that he can do, for example and besides switching up one Assault Cannon per Terminator Squad with a Cyclone Launcher, is ditch the Teleport Homers, and fancy close-combat weapons such as the Lightening Claws and Storm Shield, and the extra men in his Troop squads so that he can afford another couple of small troop squads armed with Flamethrowers to toast the Genestealers. He doesn't need the Teleport Homers because nothing would be Deep Striking, and he doesn't need the close-combat knick-knacks because the strategy is based around out-shooting the Tyranids.

I agree with dropping the homers and CCWs, but I doubt the utility of the footslogging flamer squads, at least if they're sent forward the way you suggest. If I were the 'nid player, I would kill one squad with dakkafex fire (it willt ake one turn) and use the other squad as a safe CC waypoint for my Flyrant.

I have to agree with teagus-cromis, Nurglitch. I am going to use the list again and I am in no way inclined to dump my entire codex and army to start another one.

I stated that I felt the decision to DS was the reason it failed, but I was not sure because in the two games I played, the worst case scenario for DS'ing occured (I didn't get first turn, and none of them came in until round three). I posted to benefit from others experience due to my lack of playability to assess it quantitatively (did that make sense?).

Anyway, since I am going to use the list again, and using the advice given thusfar and from I what I learned in playing 2 games, please evaluate the strategy for soundness of execution. The original plan follows skyth's to the letter, except that I would target the winged HT first, then the dakkafexes, but that might prove to be flawed.

1) Do not DS, place everything on the board
2) Focus the lascannons on the winged HT, then the elite fexes.
3) Walk the termies toward the nearest fex while shooting at the stealers to eliminate their hth threat.
4) Move forward to assault the fexes ASAP.

Concerns:
Will 2 rounds of shooting termies at stealers reduce them to a non-viable threat?
Can one round of lascannon fire ensure that the termies can finish a winged HT when they get charged?
Can I afford not to give the HQ cc weapons?
And if so, would combi-plasma be an appropriate choice?

dornsfist: That's alright, I wasn't expecting you to dump your list and take a new one. I was just offering the list as an example of the tactical principles I recommend using.

You're certainly correct that taking your Terminators, and the bulk of your firepower, out of action for so long was probably a bad idea (then again, had you gotten lucky, it might have worked). The Devastator-based list I described doesn't give you the same temptation to Deep Strike, while giving you the same two-heavy weapon in five-man squads as your Terminators. The principles being to extend your reach over space (range) as well as time (turns spent on the board shooting), while dividing your firepower efficiently amongst your forces.

Your tactical priorities seem okay, but I think you need to think about #2-4 in slightly greater detail like you do in #1. You may also want to think about the order in which squads will attack his creatures, because your Assault Cannons will be marginally more effective against his Hive Tyrants than against his Carnifexes, particularly one that flies and against which you'll need volume more than power to shut it down in the small window of opportunity your opponent will give you before it charges. In particular taking out his Synapse creatures will make life easier for you (besides not having them chewing on your troops).

That's why I suggest taking the small Flamethrower-based Tactical Squads, to deal with the Genestealers while your Terminators and their Heavy Weapons focus on the big fish. Five Space Marines with Bolters and a Flamethrower will be almost as threatening to Genestealers, especially Scuttlers, as the same size squad of Terminators, and the Flamethrower will help you roast them in the cover they will be using to get into assault range. Genestealers will continue to be a threat to your squads as long as they live, as they can tie up your firepower in assaults, giving the Monstrous Creatures time to close.

In that vein I think you'd be better off just having your Head Quarters tote Storm Bolters for dealing with any Genestealers that get close, particularly if you're going to stick the Terminators on Genestealer duty - better to deal with them at range than at arm's length.

Knocking out the synapse will do next to nothing against the army posted.

FYI if you run against a shieldwall army, with a line of MC backed up by stealers and some gaunts coming up to tie you up in CC...

Well, I'd walk all over you if you actually advanced towards me.

If you are going to play vanilla marines, having some way to keep your AC alive while they work the fexes over is key.

You are correct in the assumption that you should not DS with this list against nidzilla.

I'll see what I can come up with in 1750, points are really tight for a good list at this level.

Well, it's an idea. Makes the list a little more viable against enemy vehicle armies, and adds a little more survivability for your terminators. Being able to keep 2 AC going is critical.

If you get swamped by gaunts or stealers on your line of terminators, you can still save them from non-PW hits.

Might not seem like much, but 3 termies saved per turn and becoming fearless vs shooting wounds will also help quite a bit.

1750 Pts - Space Marines Roster

1 Captain @ 290 Pts
Storm Bolter; Terminator Command Squad
1 Terminator Armor @ [25] Pts
3 Terminator Command Squad @ [200] Pts
Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

1 Captain @ 290 Pts
Storm Bolter; Terminator Command Squad
1 Terminator Armor @ [25] Pts
3 Terminator Command Squad @ [200] Pts
Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

4 Tactical Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Apothecary @ [63] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunters; Terminator Honors
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Apothecary @ [63] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunters; Terminator Honors
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Apothecary @ [63] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunters; Terminator Honors
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

Total Roster Cost: 1750

dornsfist:

Will 2 rounds of shooting termies at stealers reduce them to a non-viable threat?

Yes--if you get two rounds of shooting at them. Difficult.

Can one round of lascannon fire ensure that the termies can finish a winged HT when they get charged?

You mean a full squad of Termies? Yes, if it's a shooty Flyrant. Probably not, if it has dual scytals. More importantly, how can you expect to get him to charge a full squad? He will pick a weaker one, and he has the mobility to do it.

Nurglitch:

Genestealers will continue to be a threat to your squads as long as they live, as they can tie up your firepower in assaults, giving the Monstrous Creatures time to close.

You have it the wrong way around. The MCs serve to let the stealers close. Either that, or the stealers serve to ward of CC troops that would threaten the MCs. MCs except the Flyrant will or should never be interested in getting closer than 18".

A question for Nurglitch, regarding flamers against genestealers:

How have you been able to get those working for you? I'm a newbie, but it's always seemed to me that, since they charge from >12" away, it's hard to hit more than one genestealer (two at the most) with the flamer template... and you have to advance toward them to do it. With that and the flamer wounding on 4+, and many genestealers having a 4+ save, it's just never struck me as an effective tool for killing stealers. Does your experience say otherwise? Or do you have a trick to lure the stealers in close enough to toast the squad without them charging?

In Nurglitch's defence, the flamer squad could work because if it's a 5-man squad and tightly packed, the stealers are pretty much guaranteed to wipe them out on the turn they charge, leaving them open for the Termies to eliminate. This means the nid player will probably have to find some other way of removing them than charging them with stealers.

Very interesting idea with the apothecary trait. I can't complain about the expensiveness of the sergeant because if each one saves one termie, it is worth it.

So how does it work? You attach the 3 tac squads to the 3 elite term squads and then attach the HQ to 2 of the now ten man squads? Sit in some terrain and let them come to you or until it's viable to break from the lascannon anchors to move? Or do the nartheciums have some sort of range. I am under the impression that they must be attached to the squad benefitting from the narth. I could be wrong, I don't have my codex in front of me.

My only real complaint, as the list is structured exactly the same as mine, minus the apoths, you lose the master rites of battle (10 leadership) and having captains is cheap, but useles for the squads as they all have veteran sergeants (Ld9). Also, the librarians ability FoTA to hit the stealers hidden behind the gun wall/terrain and the psychic hood negating the focused warp blasts seems like a big sacrifice. This is my intial feeling. I could be wrong. Thanks for the feedback. I gotta chew on it some more:

Basically, go with the same list, but lose the rites of battle leadership 10 protection and lose the psychic hood and FoTA for 3 apothecaries. Very interesting!

Heavy flamers work vs stealers IF you deepstrike.

Joe, I think you were 100% right that Deep Striking was a serious error, and handicapped you badly. Against Nidzilla you so need those guns going right from turn 1. You do not want to move up to assault ASAP. You just want to be close enough to shoot at 1-2 MCs per turn, and any stealers you can expose behind them. Moving forward too quickly will give the stealers a much better chance to assault you.

Stelek’s list is pretty solid. The narthecium works on a friendly model within 6”, so it can indeed help the termies, though it limits their mobility a bit. With only 24” range on the ACs, you will sometimes need want them moving.

I do like your original list pretty well, though. As you noted, Ld10 and the psychic hood are nice things to have, particularly in the larger metagame against Eldar and such. One thing I would do differently, however, is to drop a single marine from all of your tac squads (dropping them to 5, but you’ll keep them in the back anyway), to buy Tank Hunter on three of your Terminator squads. This will be a huge help against Eldar grav tanks (from the front or side) and Tau Devilfish (from the front), literally doubling the number of glances you get.

Mobility is limited, as you need to keep the apothecaries near your AC termies. Against Nidzilla though, you are guaranteed that they will come to you, so mobility isn't as big a deal as it could be versus other lists.

How does that Combat Squad thing work? I just had my first, albeit brief, look at the Dark Angels Codex and I didn't see anything about splitting up a 10 man squad into two 5 man squads. It was actually take a 5 man, and upgrade them to 10 man. Unless I missed a rule on some page that let you split the squad up then, you'd have to have a full 10 man squad to have that las cannon.

You did miss it. Near the front, look again. Same area as the DA modified ATSKNF rule.

Dire Wombat: It's not really a trick, and remember that the squad also has four Bolters in it (although they don't negate the cover save). Basically a Genestealer brood has to have a model starting within 13" of a model in the Marine squad in order to guarantee a charge, and within 18" for a charge to be possible. And the Flamethrower toting Marine needs to be within 8" to hope of getting one of the Genestealers touched by the Template.

Here's what I do: Form a rough wedge with your Space Marines with the Flamethrower armed Marine on point. Advance to 19"-20" away from the closest Genestealer (closer if there's Difficult Terrain between you and them). They will attempt to charge using their Fleet of Claw. If you measured it right, then you have a good 4/6 or 5/6 chance of having your Flamethrower armed marine within 9"-10" of the leading Genestealer, supposing they moved directly forward. In the following turn you can advance and subject them to eight Bolter shots and a Flamethrower at a convenient range.

Now, obviously the Genestealers may not move directly towards your Flamethrower squad. They may simply shift to a position with better cover out of range of your Flamethrower. That's okay, because you can still shoot them with your Bolters, or simply move back out to 19"+ and engage a more pressing target. Hopefully there will be a unit in your army with the range, firepower, and lack of more pressing targets to hammer the Genestealers some more.

Incidentally this can be done better, if more expensively, by a squad of Terminators toting a Heavy Flamethrower.

Nurglitch, who are you playing against who just leaves their genestealers out in the open to get shot? This should only happen in a stealer shock list. In nidzilla, which is the topic at hand, stealers hide behind MCs if the player knows what they're doing.

Uh, where do I say the Genestealers get left out in the open to get shot? The whole point of the Flamethrower is that the Genestealers will be hugging cover the whole time.

Nurglitch wrote:If he's going to use the Terminators, then he needs to have them on the board from the start and should mix up the Assault Cannons with Cyclone so that he can start hurting the Monstrous Creatures before they advance into Assault Cannon range. If the Terminators move forward the first turn or two to around 20"-23" away from the lead Monstrous Creatures, then they can backpedal towards the stationary Lascannon squads, while the Flamethrower squads sacrifice themselves dealing with the Genestealers.

While he may have made some other ire raising codex swaping sugestions, Nurglitch certainly has it right with this (and a few other unquoted bits) piece of tactical advice. Start the terminators on the board, get to the point where you are just bairly in range, and start shooting. Then back up and keep shooting as necessary. Use flamer units (or the terminators if you have to) to deal with the little bugs that are comming up to threaten you. Also keep in mind that a carnifex that has just 1 wound left fights and shoots just as well as one that's not hurt at all, so concentrate your fire on one till it's dead, then move on. Never pass up a chance to shoot a wounded one if you have the shot.

Uh, where do I say the Genestealers get left out in the open to get shot?

Now, obviously the Genestealers may not move directly towards your Flamethrower squad. They may simply shift to a position with better cover out of range of your Flamethrower. That's okay, because you can still shoot them with your Bolters. . . . Hopefully there will be a unit in your army with the range, firepower, and lack of more pressing targets to hammer the Genestealers some more.

That's where.

Oh, and something I didn't notice earlier:

Advance to 19"-20" away from the closest Genestealer (closer if there's Difficult Terrain between you and them). They will attempt to charge using their Fleet of Claw.

Hilarious. You assume that your opponent cannot judge range--why? Presumably, we're talking about an opponent equally skilled or better; advice and help is not needed against an inferior player. Further, you assume that your opponent has a reason to feel threatened by a flamer that's 19"-20" away and mvoes 6" a turn--why? Why would s/he not simply inch towards you, leaving your flamer at a still impotent range?

i play both ultras and big nid armies.
the majority of the advice you are recieving is good.
if i were you i would deffinately take some very mobile flamers. either 5 man assault squads w/ 2 flamers each or 3 man bike squads w/ 2 flamers each. the bikers are 14 pts cheaper and do give you a little more mobility though not necessarilly more survivability.
Ditch the expensive HQ. i think the points spent on just one HQ unit need to be spent to actually do something. Librarians have forceweapons. IF they live to deal a blow to your foes big critters, then they are worth the points. i like the commander more for facing big nids just cause your leadership is higher.
I wouldnt rely on quite so many terminator squads. maybe take less termi units and more las plas tactical squads. does your foe use extended carapace on the big nids in his list. if he does then more ap 2 is what you need.
this is just a suggested list based on yours. and i have had pretty good luck beating my foes who play nidzilla, the key is to kill one big nid at a time, and get the stealers before they get you.
@1750
Master
Term. armor/pair of lightning claws/teleport homer
Term. Command squad 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Tac 1x6
lascannon plasmarifle

Tac 1x6
lascannon plasmarifle

Tac 1x6
lascannon plasmarifle

3 bikes w/ 2 flamers

10 Dev w/ 4 ML

this list has 3 more rapid firing plasma guns at close range and 4 more ML for long range hitting fire power, the ML can drop a dakka fex with a little luck every turn. you also get the fast deployment flamers for stealers that need to die.
i would even recommend dropping the terminator command squad for a

master with powerfist and BP.
6 man command squad with apothecary, 2 plasmarifles, and vet sgt with fist.
this leaves you 96 pts you could use to
upgrade one biker to vet sgt with a fist and add a attack bike with a multi melta.
this gives you more maneuverable fire power and the ability to charge a wounded fex to take it down. just my two cents.

Disagree strongly with dropping the libby. FotA is pretty much the only thing that can chip at the hidden stealers no matter what the other guy does. Between the Ld. reroll and that, I'll take FotA any time. Ld. is almost irrelevant against non-choir nidzilla anyway.

Dakkafex's and Dakka Flyrants will murder 5 man power armored squads that are advancing.

Here is an interesting thought, what about using cyclones instead of assault cannons? How effective could the army be if it did all its fighting from the very back of it's deployment zone? The steelers would need to charge across a much greater distance to get close and the dakka fexes would be effectively out of the game for an additional turn or two before they managed to get in range. The best part is that this whole time you can be shelling them with 48" range, move and fire weapons. Heck, you can even start the terminators out in the middile of your deployment zone somewhere (so as not to allert your opponent to your plan) and then just walk them backwards the first turn or two. If you play some games with deployment and overload one corner with the majority of your force, the nids will probably have even longer to go in order to get all their units into the fight giving you even more time to shoot them.

Sound viable or am I just out of my mind?

fury of the anchients is not the only thing you can use to chip away at the stealers in the back of an advancing nidzilla wall. its like i said. take bikers with flamers or a speeder with hvy flamer. either will make short work of the stealers and neither has to have direct line of site. either way i think the flamer armed units will work much better than FotA. just my opinion.

Just a note: it is not your opinion, it is your assessment of the situation. Opinions are a very narrow field of data, much more so than people seem to think. Your assessment can be proven incorrect; opinions can not.

At anyrate, the main trouble I can see with using the missile launchers instead of assault cannons is that you get significantly less shots, and of course no rending. Two termies with cyclones shoot 12 times in a 6 turn game at most. Two termies with assault cannons shoot 48 times. While the increased range is nice, shooting for merely two turns with the assault cannons puts you at 16 shots, with the chances at rending auto wounds putting you farther ahead. Maybe if you opponant really clumps up his stealers you could get more hits with frag missiles, but that is perhaps asking more than is reasonable.
Saddly, there is a reason no one really uses cyclone missiles, despite how cool of an idea they are.

Fury of the Anchients is pretty cheap when you look at it. A Libby with the power probably costs less than a speeder and a handful of bikes (I am unfamilier with bike cost off hand). While I like highly mobile fire power as much as the next guy, a 'zilla list probably has enough firepower to drop any light vehicle that gets within the needed 9" to flame anything, or at least before they can flame much. FotA on the other hand can hit things first turn every time, and likely can hit multiple units each turn, and has a chance to cause pinning if some unfortunate critter gets out of synapes. The pinning is of course a minor advantage, but the others are pretty strong.

point taken. i just think that the amount of points he has wrapped up in HQ would be better spent on ap2 weaponry or weapons with a longer range than 24". the libi with hq costs over 350 pts. more killpower for those 350 is all i am suggesting. you can take a unit of dev. w/ 4 las cannon for less point and you have a much longer range unit that has higher str and AP 2. AC are very versitile though.

As has been stated before, missile launchers are ap3, not two. Sure, they'll help you hurt dakkafexes a turn earlier, but any Gunfexes, Zoanthropes, and more importantly Flyin g Tyrants will walk all over you with a 2+ save.

true. the OP did say that the dakkafex really hurt him. what about this list.

Epistolary command squad.
epistolary w/ FotA, MoH, Bp and Familiar
attatched epistolary w/ FotA, Vot, Bp iron halo and Familiar
6 man Veteran command squad w/ apothecary, vet with fist, champion and 2 plasma rifles, all of the above have furious charge.

4x 6 marine las plas squads

2x5 termis each w/ 2 AC

2x5 dev squads w/ 2 las cannon in each.

Both librarians have fury so they can both hit the hidden stealers. they also have a In 7, str 5 charge and one of them gets to reroll everything with 1d3 extra attacks. this would enable him to beat even souped up tyrants to the punch in melee and the same with stealers. They would have no trouble clearing their kill zones. Not to mention being able to force weapon two monster's per turn.
Lots of ap 2 weapons.

At anyrate, the main trouble I can see with using the missile launchers instead of assault cannons is that you get significantly less shots, and of course no rending. Two termies with cyclones shoot 12 times in a 6 turn game at most. Two termies with assault cannons shoot 48 times. While the increased range is nice, shooting for merely two turns with the assault cannons puts you at 16 shots, with the chances at rending auto wounds putting you farther ahead. Maybe if you opponant really clumps up his stealers you could get more hits with frag missiles, but that is perhaps asking more than is reasonable.
Saddly, there is a reason no one really uses cyclone missiles, despite how cool of an idea they are.

I think your analysis of the situation is somewhat lacking. Just looking at the number of shots that each weapon gets is hardly a good view of its performance on the battlefield. A shuriken catapult gets two shots compared to a lac cannon’s one shot, but it isn’t better at killing monstrous creatures. Now, I’m not saying that you are wrong and that the cyclones are better than assault cannons, but let’s look a bit deeper than just the number of shots.

So I ran some math on the situation and the number come out like this for terminators shooting at a fex with T6 and a 3+ save.
Cyclone = .55 wounds per turn of shooting
Assault cannon = 1 wound per turn of shooting (.33 non rending wounds, .66 rending)

The standard deviation on both weapons is fairly large due to the low rate of fire on the cyclone and the reliance on rending for the assault cannon, so things are more or less a wash there.

The real point of contention is how long will each weapon be likely to be shooting? If you go first, chances are you won’t be able to shoot the first turn with assault cannons (or you’ll have to move forward to do so and that just seems like a bad idea to me when going up against nids). If you go second, you’ll probably be in range starting on your first turn. While missing the first turn of shooting isn’t such a big deal, what is really important is getting killed (or not). If you are shooting fexes from 24” away, it’s possible (and likely) that they will move 6” towards you on their turn and shoot. This means that after your first turn of shooting, they will be in range to shoot back and will remain there till they are dead (or you are). Nothing cuts down on your firepower like losing the guys that are shooting. In addition, if his fexes hold their position (and you move back to 24” away), he can move up his steelers to a forward position. At that point, you’ll have to shoot the steelers or risk getting charged. With the cyclones, this doesn’t become an issue till much later in the game after you’ve had plenty of opportunity to thin the ranks of either the steelers or the fexes. As an additional note, if you deploy in such a way as to make your opponent come to you, he will have to make a choice. He can either fleet the steelers to get to you faster and leave the fexes behind, or he can not fleet the steelers and take longer to get to you. If the steelers fleet, you can shoot them and deal with the fexes later. If the steelers stay with the fexes, you’ll have additional time to work on the fexes before you have to deal with the steelers. In either case, it puts the nid player an undesirable tactical situation.

In the end, I don’t think this is an issue that can truly be answered by theoryhammer and it’s going to have to be worked out on the field. The assault cannons are more deadly to their target than the cyclones, but they are also more deadly to their user because the short range of the weapon places you within range of the enemy. Cyclones do less damage, but allow their users to stay out of range of return fire. I do contend, however, that with the proper placement of models, proper retreat tactics, and proper target selection, that cyclones could be just as effective (or possibly more so) than assault cannons.

When I first saw your list, I thought that you have a chance against Godzilla. You just need to use better tactics and target priority.

And you are right, never deep strike, you want as much shooting as you can get, for as long as you can.

The Godzilla/Genestealer combo is very deadly because the ‘Nid player does not have to worry about synapse, and Genestealers will kill anything they can get their claws on.

A Godzilla/Genestealer player has 2 options.

#1. Use the TMCs as a wall and hide the genestealers behind them.

#2. Rush the genestealers at you as fast as they can go.

Tactic #1 is easy to counter. The effective range of this army (for the most part) is 18”+6” move. Now the Godzilla wall will be 24” away. So that means that they can move 6” and with most of the shooting 18”, they can not shoot you the first turn (be sure you set up 1” back from your deployment edge to insure that you are out of range). Then you move back 4” on your turn and unload. Now it is time for threat assessment. You need to take down the Winged Tyrant as fast as you can. That thing can move 12”+18” shooting, or will get into assault on turn 2 to cause all kinds of havoc, so it needs to die. Then if you have any genestealers exposed you need to kill them as well. Then with anything left over, take down the TMCs. With them moving 6” forward, and you moving 6” backwards, the TMCs will not be a real threat for 3 more turns. You can pick them apart, and then you should have the upper hand for the rest of the game.

Tactic #2 is harder to counter. This tactic is tough to beat because it makes you choose to either shoot at the genestealers, or to shoot at the big bugs. Again you will want to use the walking backwards while shooting. Only you will want to start a little farther back in your deployment zone, to account for FoF. About 3”-6” will do it, and you can adjust your fall back move based on their FoF rolls. Then you use the same target priority, and shoot the crap out of the genestealers. If the Genestealers get into combat with you, you will be hard pressed to get out of it, so they must die!

A few tips:
Never think about using a sacrifice squad to move forward to flame some bugs. #1. You never, ever want to give them a free 6” assault move. #2. You never want them locked in combat so they can’t be shot. #3. You never want to give them an additional consolidation move.

Never move closer to them. See above. Time is on your side, you do not want them in combat for as long as possible.

Stand out in the open. Tyranids have very little shooting that can get through your armor. You stand out in the open and the Emperor’s armor will protect you (Especially terminator armor that they can’t get through with shooting).


Spread out. You spread out and space yourself out so you minimize the damage from barbed stranglers.

Always stand at the back of the board. Standing at the back of the board will buy you as much time as possible.

Phoenix wrote:

I think your analysis of the situation is somewhat lacking.

So I ran some math on the situation and the number come out like this for terminators shooting at a fex with T6 and a 3+ save.
Cyclone = .55 wounds per turn of shooting
Assault cannon = 1 wound per turn of shooting (.33 non rending wounds, .66 rending)

Assault Cannons are much better because not only are they going to be shooting at TMCs, but you need to kill Genestealers as well. The Cyclone Missile launcher can't kill both nearly as well as the AC.

As far as range goes, that is never an issue. Since the Nids will be moving as fast as possible toward you, you will never have problems with them being out of range.

In the new rules assult cannons will be next to useless so dont spend to much money on ac terminators tho

New assault cannon kills 1 MEQ/round of shooting. Cyclone kills 5/9 MEQ/round of shooting. Hardly worthless.

I did not mention the cyclone at all, there will simply be better options for fighitng nidzilla with marines overall. SM terminators will suffer if the new edition stays as it is.

But if you want to compare it against a T6 3+ you will see the ac suffers against even the cyclone.

What about

-dumping one of the initial elite AC Termie squads to retain the libby

-get one more tac squad, upgrade plasma on each tac squad to increase firepower on the cost of not having marine no 6 if need be (since neither leadership with the chapter master nor scoring should be too much of a consideration in the given matchup: Once those dakkafexes are in range you'll lose a 6 man tac squad as fast as a 5 man one imho)

-buy a single whirlwind from the spare. For 85 points with no heavy support used atm you can hardly go wrong plus this single blast template will hopefully make you opponent think twice before clumping his stealers behind the mcs. The sooner those stealers are gone, the easier it should get...

my 2 cents, Khorneflakes

P.S.: Shifting ACs from 6/9 rends + 18/9 normal hits to 4/9 rends + 20/9 normals hits with rumoured 5th will make them... what? From slightly better than a twin-linked LasCannon to slightly less proficient at killing vehicles while still beeing Heavy 4 S6 for use against hordes? Next to useless, yep...

I find that termies are not as good at killing Nids as bike units.
I play both Deathwing and Ravenwing. My ravenwing army has an easier time dealing with steelers and the big bugs. I have the movement and the guns on my side.

Deathwing on the other hand is limited to moving 6" a turn which is easy to be caught by steelers. I have some luck at taking down the bigger bugs but rending is not as great as you would think.

I am not saying to change codexes. The SM codex is good and the list is fine. I try not to use termies under 1850 points enless I am playing Deathwing.

MM attack bikes are better at removing the bigger bugs and have the same range as the termies but twice the movement. Turbo-boosting as a last ditch move to get away is nice too. 2 squads of 3 will be enought to remove a MC a turn at least. I figure there are at least 3 wounds to 4 wounds per MC. Each squad runs under 200 points each.

I enjoyed the advice on this topic and I agree there is more than one way to skin a Nid.

I am surprised you have good results with Ravenwing.

MM range is 24" and even then you are also only doing one shot a turn. If you are lucky, you need to have about 6 of them to bring down one big bug.

The 24" range also puts you in range of the Dakkafexes, which are shooting a lot of shots at strength 6 with a re-roll to wound.

Land Speeders are good but, they are very fragile to TMC shooting. They are good at picking off the genestealers that get ahead of the rest of the army.

Deathwing is a lot weaker than Space Marines do to the single Assault Cannon.

No point in having a second Assault Cannon if you're Pinned.

Blackmoor pretty much nailed my response to Phoenix about Assault Cannons vs Rockets. More shots = better when not shooting at an AV rating.

It's interesting you should say that, because a Cyclone armed Terminator can put out three shots: two Storm Bolter shots and a Frag Missile. These shots aren't as strong as those of an Assault Cannon, but the Frag Missile at least has much longer range, which good for shooting laterally in your deployment area as much as across the board into your opponent's.

Nurglitch wrote:No point in having a second Assault Cannon if you're Pinned.

I have heard about the possiblity of a squad being pinned...I have just never seen it.

You have to hit with a BS 3 Barbed Strangler, then you have to kill a model with a 2+ save, and then they have to fail a LD 10 check, but who knows? Miracles can happen.

You can pin a squad of Terminators using a Barbed Strangler, particularly if you have several models with Psychic Scream within 18". Both Tyrants and three Zoanthropes would give the Terminators an effective Leadership of 5 to pass the test. Still, Leadership 7 and 8 fail pretty reliably.

Better yet, force the squad to take multiple pinning tests using Barbed Stranglers, Biovores, or Deep Striking Spore Mine Clusters (three Clusters of three Frag Spore Mines each, or maybe Bio-Acid, is pretty cheap). Over multiple tests even Leadership 9 and 10 will fail.

Hardly a miracle, you just have to use tactics rather than just rolling dice and getting lucky.

How many choir lists do you see these days anyway compared to standard nidzilla? Getting walking Screams within range is a bother. And biovores. . . well, there is another thread dedicated to them, so let's not bring them in here.

Really though, barring multiple Screams (because I am really unconvinced that it is worth the bother), sure, you will pin a squad now and then, but 1) it seems mroe likely that the squad will be dead by then anyway, since eahc test requires a casualty and 2) I doubt each squad will spend half the time pinned, which is what would need to happen to outweigh the dual AC advantage.

They don't need to spend half the game pinned, just half the time that the Tyranids are in range. Trying to pin the Terminators is certainly worth the bother because if you don't pin them you've still caused a casualty, and if you have pinned them then you've caused a casualty and have a free-hand to concentrate on other units for a turn.

I can imagine simply having the chance of being pinned makes the Codex: Space Marine Terminators less useful (i.e.: reliable) than Codex: Dark Angels Terminators. Still, the guy's using the former and probably isn't looking for advice for his opponent...

Edit: Incidentally, and thanks to Horrorficies and Terrorficies, Dark Eldar can pin Codex Terminators rather easily and without causing casulaties. But that's neither here nor there.

The reason I don't mention storm bolters is that the don't do much of anything to most MC's that Tyranids toss out. Even still, it is only 3 shots (2 st4 and 1 str8) a turn, instead of 4 str6 rending.
I am a big fan of bolters, but they just are not as good as assault cannons. Now, if you could shoot the missiles at one target, and the bolters at another, THAT could be cool.

Oh, and by the way, you can only cause one pinning check a turn. So you are REALLY unlikely to pin anything human other than guardsman. A shame, really.

Nurglitch wrote:Edit: Incidentally, and thanks to Horrorficies and Terrorficies, Dark Eldar can pin Codex Terminators rather easily and without causing casulaties. But that's neither here nor there.

Only when they are in deep strike formation.

Usually only the first shot, since most times you follow it up immediately with a plasma cannon template...and there aren't 4 extra termies there for the -4 bonus anymore.

Wehrkind: With regard to your first message the Cyclone-wielding Terminator can toss out three shots. These three shots can be two Rg24" S4 AP5, and one Rg48" S8 AP3 or these three shots can be two Rg24" S4 AP5 and one Rg48" S4 AP5 Blast. So you can either use the krak shot to take on the Monstrous Creatures, a turn or two before an Assault Cannon would be able to (or even to shoot at the incoming Monstrous Creatures while retreating away from them), or the frag shot to take on any lurking Genestealers.

Of course, if you're playing Codex: Space Marines then you don't have to choose between Assault Cannons and Cyclones (although two Cyclones would be handy). You can take one of each.

Your second message is incorrect. The rules state, on p.32 of the Rulebook, that: "A unit may be called upon to take multiple Pinning tests in a single turn."

Maybe I am thinking of morale tests and pinning when it comes to taking only one. I will check.

The problem with the missiles is this: Assuming every krak missile hits, wounds and is not saved, how many shots does it take to kill a TMC?

As to frag: how often does a frag missile hit 2 or more models, and how does that number + 2 storm bolter shots compare to the number of hits and wounds from an assault cannon.
Personally, I would rather have 4 st6 ap4 hits, than 3+ Str4 ap 5 hits. I would imagine any 'nid player worth his salt keeps his genies outside of 1" from each other most of the time, meaning getting more than 1-2 partials which then need a 4+ to even hit before wounds is rough.

Blackmoor wrote:As far as range goes, that is never an issue. Since the Nids will be moving as fast as possible toward you, you will never have problems with them being out of range.

My point with range isn't so much that you have to worry much about your targets being out of range, the point is that with the shorter ranged weapons, you will be in range to take return fire from your targets.

It's multiple pinning checks (1 per enemy unit causing the pin check) and only 1 morale check.

Pin check, take immediately.

Morale check, take after shooting is done by everyone.

Wehrkind: Well, the Cyclones would wound a flying Hive Tyrant or Devourer-armed Carnifex on a 2+ with no saving throw (unless it took a Warp Field), and it would take a minimum of four shots, at around 20 out of 36 shots wounding on average per shot (the average survival rate of a Guardsman getting shot by Space Marine Heavy Bolters).

Against a Heavy Support Carnifex or walking Hive Tyrant it could be as few as 20 out of 216 shots wounding on average per shot.

One would assume that the Cyclone shots would be reserved for the Elite Carnifex units and the flying Hive Tyrant, while the Heavy Support Carnifex units and the walking Hive Tyrant would be the Lascannon targets.

#1. All winged hive tyrants and a lot of heavy support canifexes have a 2+ save.

#2. I don't think a fearless cyclone missile launcher+Stormbolter (Deathwing)=8 assault cannon shots+LD10+20 points (Space Marines).

#1. No, not all Winged Hive Tyrants have a Warp Field, and yes, I did in fact assume that the Heavy Support Carnifex units would have 2+ saves.

#2. Is your opinion true, or are you simply mistaken? I mean, do you have any reasons why the rest of us should share this thought of yours?

He's expressing the comparison in simple terms.

Deathwing gives up multiple heavies for Fearlessness, and costs more.

It's fairly close to an axiom among competitive players that assault cannons are very, very good, so simultaneously halving your number of assault cannons while paying more for the privilege is a bit counter-intuitive.

I think you've done a good job pointing out some applications in which Deathwing or Cyclones could be of enhanced comparative utility, but Blackmoor is pointing out (based on his tourney experience and fairly impressive records therein) that these applications have mostly been niche cases. In the more common situations, multiple assault cannons = way good, and Fearlessness /= so much better than Ld10 that it's worth losing the extra AC.

Yes, I'm aware of the difference. I'm simply curious as to his justification for thinking that is so. If it's good justification I'd like to share it, y'know?

From what I've read of Blackmoor's posts in this thread I haven't seen anything to justify the suggestion that the utility of Deathwing squads and Cyclone Missile Launchers is limited niche cases while the Assault Cannon has greater utility in more situations.

By contrast I believe Phoenix has given us several reasons to believe that Cyclone Missile Launchers would be more effective against the Tyranid list in question (deployment, retreats, target selection, etc). Given Phoenix's arguments (as opposed to Blackmoor's 'because I said sos') it seems that range, strategic position, and versatility compounded by range suggest that mixing Cyclones and Assault Cannons in the same squad is quite an advantage while two heavy weapons per Terminator squad is still available.

But about the Deathwing squad: the Fearless goes a long way to being proactive about Tyranids and the ability to mix Assault Terminators and Tactical Terminators in the same squad means you can have a squad capable of shooting a Monstrous Creature up and the splatting it down (say, two Thunder Hammers, two Power Fists, one Power Weapon, two Storm Bolters, and a Cyclone). But that's kind of off-topic.

At this juncture I'd be interested to hear the specific configuration of that Tyranid army that the person starting the thread played, and what was done with it, so we could discuss actual tactics rather than just strategy, which is the army list forum's business.

Nurglitch wrote: mixing Cyclones and Assault Cannons in the same squad is quite an advantage while two heavy weapons per Terminator squad is still available.

Mixing weaponry (Unless that weaponry gives synergy) is never a good idea. Especially weapons so different in characteristics as a cyclone and an assault cannon.

why use assault cannons at all to fight big things like carnifexes? sure they have rending, but that's too much fire to dump into a target to get maybe a wound or two (only dumb nid players don't give the 2+ armor). the termies are better off killing the masses of nids, while the tac squads pick the biggies apart one at a time with lascannons.

Bastirous666 wrote:why use assault cannons at all to fight big things like carnifexes? [...] the termies are better off killing the masses of nids, while the tac squads pick the biggies apart one at a time with lascannons.

One little nitpick here; assault cannons are actually better at killing MCs than are lascannons (due primarily to multi-shot rending). Actually, the math works out such that, statistically, assault cannons inarguably outperform lascannons against all targets except for AV14 vehicles and T4 multi-wound models w/ 3+ or better saves (due to instant death and consistent AP from the lascannon).

(Of course, the lascannon has superior range and is available in relatively inexpensive troop units... I'm not making one of those "assault cannons are the be-all end-all" arguments, I'm just pointing out that they are, in fact, an excellent choice for killing MCs).

That assault cannons (and the other weapons of the units that carry them) are also among the top choices for killing the small bugs is also true, but since they're good at pretty much everything it seems to me that the choice of what to shoot them at should be situational, not dictated by a blanket rule of "shoot the big/little ones first."

Nurglitch:

They don't need to spend half the game pinned, just half the time that the Tyranids are in range.

Whatever. Point is, good luck getting that to happen, even with a choir list. You're the one who says it's easy, you crunch the math and show me, bearing in mind the time it will take to bring Screams to bear.

Trying to pin the Terminators is certainly worth the bother because if you don't pin them you've still caused a casualty

And if you had gone triple Blast instead of Screams you would have killed more. "Trying to pin Terminators" is not just about shooting them with a BS (that is just shooting your available weapons at them), but about weighting your list towards pinning, in the way you've mentioned--Screams, biovores, etc. That is what isn't worthwhile. Of course it's worth shooting your BS at them if they're the priority target.

I can imagine simply having the chance of being pinned makes the Codex: Space Marine Terminators less useful (i.e.: reliable) than Codex: Dark Angels Terminators.

Imagination is nice and all, but in practice, I have yet to see pinning ever make a big difference in a game.

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, I'm aware of the difference. I'm simply curious as to his justification for thinking that is so. If it's good justification I'd like to share it, y'know?

From what I've read of Blackmoor's posts in this thread I haven't seen anything to justify the suggestion that the utility of Deathwing squads and Cyclone Missile Launchers is limited niche cases while the Assault Cannon has greater utility in more situations.

Blackmoor’s first post, page on page 2, did this.

A MC/Stealers list fights in two main ways. Either it advances to shoot, keeping the stealers back hidden behind the MCs for counterassault/objective holding (and opportunity targets coming within charge range) or it floods your guns by having the stealers close ASAP while simultaneously advancing with the Dakkafexes to shoot, with the sniperfexes sticking to good cover/fire lines behind.

Either way, any walking Tyrant with Guard usually hangs out between the two Fex zones, shooting and acting as a counterassault element in case you charge the Dakkafexes, and any winged Tyrant advances behind LOS-blocking terrain, assaulting a flank or in concert with stealers if he’s assaulty, or breaking cover to shoot once the Dakkafexes/stealers start to get in range in the hopes that you won’t focus fire on just him.

In either case, the Dakkafexes, due to their 18” range, will be moving towards you early. Due to the standard deployment zone sizes, you can almost inevitably expect Dakkafexes to be in range for your Assault Cannons on turn 1, or turn 2 at the latest. You usually start 24” apart, and the Dakkafexes will move up 6” if possible, or close to that while sticking to cover if they’ve got a good spot. The greater range of the Cyclones is of little utility, since your best targets for ACs (Dakkafexes and Stealers) will usually be within 24” of your zone/army for the entire game.

Cyclones are not useless against Dakkafexes, since they only have a 3+ save, but still average fewer wounds than assault cannons. And no one even needs to look at the math to see how well ACs outperform MLs when you do get a shot at the stealers. If/when you clear out the DFs, Stealers, and (if possible) the flying Tyrant, who are threatening/close, you can advance to start rending down the walking tyrant and HS fexes in the Tyranid backfield.

In terms of general utility against most targets, again, the math shows that an AC outperforms every gun against every target except a couple in specific situations. Lascannons against AV14, for example, or a plasmacannon against Deep Strikers (who are forced to be circled up in base contact). And when you compare a pair of ACs to a single AC or Cyclone (regular SM vs Deathwing) the disparity becomes stark.

Bastirous666 wrote:why use assault cannons at all to fight big things like carnifexes? sure they have rending, but that's too much fire to dump into a target to get maybe a wound or two (only dumb nid players don't give the 2+ armor). the termies are better off killing the masses of nids, while the tac squads pick the biggies apart one at a time with lascannons.

Remember that the Elite fexes don't have 2+ saves. Run the math sometime. Even against a 2+ save, Rending makes the AC superior to any other gun out there. And the ACs are great if there are any little bugs (some players do use some gaunts) or medium bugs (stealers or the rarely-seen warriors).

Nurglitch: The reason I say the AC is so much better vs. the flying tyrant is that it has the possibility of killing it in one turn, from one terminator's shots, while on average doing about 1 wound. The missile also does about one wound on average say, but it has zero chance of killing the thing off all at once. If weapon A has a greater variance with an equal average result to weapon B which has a much smaller variance, weapon A is generally superior.

Dire Wombat wrote: One little nitpick here; assault cannons are actually better at killing MCs than are lascannons (due primarily to multi-shot rending). Actually, the math works out such that, statistically, assault cannons inarguably outperform lascannons against all targets except for AV14 vehicles and T4 multi-wound models w/ 3+ or better saves (due to instant death and consistent AP from the lascannon).

(Of course, the lascannon has superior range and is available in relatively inexpensive troop units... I'm not making one of those "assault cannons are the be-all end-all" arguments, I'm just pointing out that they are, in fact, an excellent choice for killing MCs).

Math breakdown. Target = T6, 3+ save
Las cannon = .55 wounds / shooting phase
Assault canon = 1 wounds / shooting phase (.66 rending, .33 normal)

Target = T6, 2+ save
Las cannon = .55 wounds / shooting phase
Assault cannon = .83 wounds / shooting phase (.66 rending, .16 normal)

So while the las cannon has greater range and ap power, the assault cannon (on average) will do more wounds per shooting phase than the las cannon and it's due directly to rending. Even if you removed the "normal" wounds the assault cannon did, the rending shots alone do more damage (stupid rending).

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, I'm aware of the difference. I'm simply curious as to his justification for thinking that is so. If it's good justification I'd like to share it, y'know?

From what I've read of Blackmoor's posts in this thread I haven't seen anything to justify the suggestion that the utility of Deathwing squads and Cyclone Missile Launchers is limited niche cases while the Assault Cannon has greater utility in more situations.

I was going to tell you last night that I hold these truths to be self evident.

I am surprised that you do not know that the AC is vastly superior to any other weapon that you can arm a terminator with.

As Phoenix pointed out, you will do far more damage to a TMC with an Assault Cannon than you will with a Lascannon. And a Lascannon is a much better weapon than a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

Then let’s look at the AC vs. Genestealers. On average an Assault Cannon will kill 2.22 Genestealers a turn. The Cyclone Missile Launcher will kill .55 Genestealers with a Krak missile. If you shoot frag missile (let’s be generous) and say that you will hit 2 and have 2 partials, then you will do 1 wound if the Genestealers have a 5+ save, and .5 if they have a 4+ save.

So you can see that in a head-to head comparison the Assault Cannon is vastly superior to the Cyclone Missile Launcher.

Now if you want to trade LD10 for Fearlessness, then the argument for the Assault Cannon is overwhelming.

So let’s review
Deathwing with 1 CML= .55 wounds to a TMC (against a 3+save, against a 2+ save it will be much worse)
Deathwing with 1 CML= .55 wounds to a Genestealer with a Krak Missile (against a 3+save, against a 2+ save it will be much worse)
Deathwing with 1 CML= 1 wound (5+ save) or .5 wounds (4+ save) to a Genestealer with a Frag Missile (Assuming 2 fulls, and 2 partials).

Deathwing with 1 AC= 1 wound to a TMC
Deathwing with 1 AC= 2.22 wounds to Genestealers

Space Marine with 2 CML =1.1 wounds to a TMC (against a 3+save, against a 2+ save it will be much worse)
Space Marine with 2 CML= 1.1 wounds to a Genestealer with a Krak Missile
Space Marine with 2 CML= 2 wounds (5+ save) or 1 wounds (4+ save) to a Genestealer with a Frag Missile (Assuming 2 fulls, and 2 partials).

Space Marine with 2 AC= 2 wounds to a TMC
Space Marine with 2 AC= 4.44 wounds to Genestealers

To add to Blackmoor's post, the Cyclone is relegated to the niche cases where the extended range can be used for enough turns to overcome the deficit in killiness. Or can, vs tyranid MCs, prevent enough deaths of terminators to tyranid shooting to overcome the same deficit.

I would honestly give the edge to the Cyclone vs. tyranid MC's just for the range if it weren't for 2+ saves being so ubiquitous on HQ and Heavy MCs. A 2+ save turns a good margin in favor of the AC into a huge margin in favor of the AC.

Moz wrote:To add to Blackmoor's post, the Cyclone is relegated to the niche cases where the extended range can be used for enough turns to overcome the deficit in killiness. Or can, vs tyranid MCs, prevent enough deaths of terminators to tyranid shooting to overcome the same deficit.

That would be the issue in a nut shell.

I'm starting to think that a mix and match approach might be the way to go. Take 2 cyclone squads and 1-2 (depending on points and what not) assault cannon squads (you can take terminator HQ retenues right?). Back up for the first couple of turns to draw out the steelers and/or other fast units. Gun them down with the assault cannon squads. While this is going on, you can have the cyclones shelling the fexes. Then on turn 3 or so, reverse direction and march up on the dakka fexes with everything. Try to stay out of line of sight of the sniper fexes as much as possible and blaze up the flyrant with assault cannon fire if he shows himself (and is sporting a 2+ save).

pheonix is going in the right direction of thought, because of the simple fact that mostly terminator armies cannot depend wholly on the assault cannon to do that damage for them. Sure it is nice, and does lots of damage, but it is not the ultimate weapon, and definitely can't win the game for you. most shots will bounce off, and out of 8 shots a great roll would be getting 2-3 rends. But even that rarely if ever happens. There are plenty of better ways to kill fexes than termies with assault cannons.

i say look for alternatives to the termies for the purpose of killing MC's

Phoenix:

I'm starting to think that a mix and match approach might be the way to go. Take 2 cyclone squads and 1-2 (depending on points and what not) assault cannon squads (you can take terminator HQ retenues right?). Back up for the first couple of turns to draw out the steelers and/or other fast units.

So your strategy is "pray that your opponent screws up"? Because that is precisely what s/he would be doing by sending his stealers out to be mown down by your ACs. S/he would be far better off just following the standard procedure of plodding forward behind a wall of MCs. After all, you have already neutered your firepower by swapping half the ACs you could have had for CMLs. What if your opponent does this? How does it leave you any better off than if you had taken ACs instead?

It is possible that we are barking up the wrong tree so to speak. How about another radical terminator idea? As we all know, fexes suck in hand to hand. The issue is though that most things with str 4 attacks don't do much to them. Terminators, however, are all (or almost all) str 8 in hand to hand. So how about trying to get those terminators into close combat?

How we manage this is the question though. Let’s look at some options.

1) Walking. This isn't the ideal method of delivery but I bring it up to point that out. If you just walk towards the fexes, they will most likely just walk away from you and keep you from ever getting into assault.

2) Land raiders. While these things are normally huge point sinks, one or two might be useful for this role. If this is the case, you could buy them as heavy support choices so that they could transport any squad you like (your heavy slots are not being used for anything anyway). You then fill them with assault terminators and drive them straight for the dakka fexes. Try to avoid the sniper fexes since they actually pose some sort of threat to the land raiders. Once you get close, disembark the terminators and go to town. Crusaders would probably be the best option for the load out since the hurricane bolters would be able to cut down the biggest threat to both the tank and its passengers, namely the steelers. I'm not sure which codexes allow the use of the crusader, so someone might want to check on that before trying to implement this idea. This idea also requires that you have some forward units of assault cannon toating terminators around to thin out / eliminate the steelers before you go in. In addition, if you arm all your assault terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields, they are rather resistant to damage should some steelers or the flyrant manage to make it into hand to hand with them.

3) Deep strike. This method has some pros and cons. The pros are that it can get you wherever you need to be and that you can’t get shot on the way there. The cons are that you can’t assault once you get there and your target can walk away from you once you land. Let’s also not forget that you come in on a random turn as well. So how do we make this work? Well if you have some assault cannon terminators go in first and clear out the steelers, you can have some terminators deep strike down behind the fex gun line. From there you can do a pincer move of having the units both in front and behind the fexes start moving in and assaulting. Since you can’t assault the turn you land, assault terminators might not be the best idea for this role. Assault cannon terminators should work well though. This tactic is one of the few places were a dark angles list might out perform a basic marine codex. Most of the other tactics discussed in this thread have relied on shooting to do most of the damage. Since this one relies both on assault and more importantly on deep strike, using the “Deathwing Assault” might be a good idea.

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

If going with the DS idea, use normal Termies instead of Assault Termies. You're hunting fexes--what special CC weapons do you need? Storm shields to fractionally improve their survivability against the beast's 1 hit per turn? Better to have the ACs. That way, when your opponent decides not to oblige you by letting you shoot his stealers to your heart's desire, you still have dual ACs (and the SBs) to thin them out from behind the wall the turn you DS.

@Nurglitch
My opponent used the TMC wall approach. It had 3 thropes, 2 dakafexes (T7, no carapace), 3 elite devourer fexes, walkrant, flyrant, and about 32 stealers (bareboned).

@Phoenix
I intitially thought deep strike would work beautifully, but I will never do it again for the reasons I stated in the beginning and verified by experienced players here. The only highlight was that my libby and bodygaurd were able to take down the flyrant in one round of shooting when they deep struck. This is the only advantage I can see in deep striking. possibly getting behind the TMC wall, but if I was the nid player and saw my opponent hold the termies in reserve, I would just charge with the stealers instead of using the wall tactic. I still have not played the third game (hopefully it's a charm). I will not deep strike and feel confident that the assault cannons 24" range and high volume of fire will allow me to target the stealers first if they charge or the TMC's if they use the wall. This is the main reason why I will stick with the AC, it's flexibility to be effective versus the horde and the TMC.

Hey, you do realise that the AC's range is not 24", right? Typo?

dornsfist wrote:
My opponent used the TMC wall approach. It had 3 thropes, 2 dakafexes (T7, no carapace), 3 elite devourer fexes, walkrant, flyrant, and about 32 stealers (bareboned).

Small correction here: dakkafex = elite devourer fex. gunfex = heavy venom\barbed stranger fex.

Godzilla Nids & Mech Eldar are the main reasons that every competitive Marine army should include 3 Whilrwinds, and then the usual "good stuff".

Kills the bugs that worry you, with no opportunity to hide, and you can use your Assault Cannons & Las/Plas to take out the big bugs (here's a hint: shoot the Flyrant and then Dakka Fex's first).

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Godzilla Nids & Mech Eldar are the main reasons that every competitive Marine army should include 3 Whilrwinds, and then the usual "good stuff".

Don't forget Orks and Tau that 3 Whirlwinds do well against, and they even do pretty well against MEQs.

as long as your using one castellian launcher. S5 Ap4 just aint enough to be useful to me. and the castellians hit on the way in too.

dornsfist wrote:
@Phoenix
I intitially thought deep strike would work beautifully, but I will never do it again for the reasons I stated in the beginning and verified by experienced players here. The only highlight was that my libby and bodygaurd were able to take down the flyrant in one round of shooting when they deep struck. This is the only advantage I can see in deep striking. possibly getting behind the TMC wall, but if I was the nid player and saw my opponent hold the termies in reserve, I would just charge with the stealers instead of using the wall tactic. I still have not played the third game (hopefully it's a charm). I will not deep strike and feel confident that the assault cannons 24" range and high volume of fire will allow me to target the stealers first if they charge or the TMC's if they use the wall. This is the main reason why I will stick with the AC, it's flexibility to be effective versus the horde and the TMC.

Just presenting ideas here. The main reason I bring up the deep strike option was Nurglitch's sugestion of using dark angles. With the dark angles codex you can get the death wing assault going. This will allow you to deep strike your terminators in a timely fashion with reliability...something that you can't do (and that seriously hinders deep strike as an option) with normal marines. Now, no one is saying you have to go out and repaint your marines or anything, but you might want to give their rules a try and see if it will work. Regardless of if it does work or it doesn't, I would be interested in hearing how it went.

I've looked at the DA codex, and I don't really like it one bit. It's got that whole, your squads can only take this bit going on that GW seems to be putting in all of the new codices. I think he's much better off with the regular nilla marine codex in terms of versatility and customization. However there are rumors of another update (doubt it) so it's a gamble to use it. I dunno no matter which way he goes the problem still stands, good way to take out nids...which can be a tough thing.

There are competitive marine lists?

Where??

You never want to deep strike against Genestealers. Haven't you ever played Space Hulk?

Even assault terminators will be quickly killed.

especially assault termies. they depend on close combat, and against I6 rending stealers...no chance at all

Bastirous666:

as long as your using one castellian launcher. S5 Ap4 just aint enough to be useful to me. and the castellians hit on the way in too.

It is pretty much common knowledge that they should all be castellans. The minefields are unbelievably superior to the standard rounds.

If you were using 3, I could certainly see having one use the regular ammo vs a list capable of making the big bugs a wall. With Stealers bunched up to hide behind the big boys, they suffer a lot worse.

Bastirous666 wrote:as long as your using one castellian launcher. S5 Ap4 just aint enough to be useful to me. and the castellians hit on the way in too.

Uh, what do you mean by "castellians hit on the way in too"?

when they fall they do damage too. they hit the target when they drop, along with the normal damage they do. unless that changed in the new codex, cuz i pay no attention to the whirlwinds...ever!

No, they either do damage when you fire them (normal) OR they lay down a minefield (Castellan). Certainly not both!

ok well the old rules for it did the minefield hit on the way in if it landed on something. obviously that changed, oh well. again another reason for me to not use them

Uh, no they didn't.

Unless you're talking about something back in 2nd edition, maybe? 3rd edition came out in 1998, and there have been no whirlwind rules matching what you're talking about since then to my knowledge.

yea i am talking about old rules...like when i first started playing in 97, since then i paid no attention to whilewinds, so i never noticed any changes. they were decent at best then, and they are no different from what i've been told now

What if you hit a unit dead on with the mine field? Does the mine field detonate?

Only if (when) they move. And it applies to every enemy model that moves over it, every time they move.

It's a fantastic weapon against light armored stuff like Genestealers and Harlequins. Once they start to get close, drop it right on your own squads which they want to assault. They'll get hit when they assault over it, AND when they consolidate over it.

Except that you can't actually drop it on your own troops on purpose. Has to either scatter onto them or your troops have to move onto the minefield.

Says who, skyth? There is no such restriction AFAIK.

P39 of Codex Space Marines says that you can either target an enemy unit or an empty area so that no friendly or enemy units are under the template.

I guess this is my week for making blatantly wrong rules claims. Sorry, then. Me and my WW-abusing friend will have to have a little talk. . . .

Well you can still put the mine field down right ontop of the unit or in front or your own to ensure that they will be hit by that nasty surprise sooner or later

I agree with tegeus in not dropping the libby. If you kit him out with f.ex a bike, artificier armour and Iron Halo, plus of course Veil of Time, and then have him on Flyrant watch, IMO your opponent would think twice about harrasing you with his big critters.

Oy. What the hell. Wrong thread! Sorry, my bad