I just looked at the sneek peeks page for 40K and they have a unit called the masque, that is coming out. Looks like Dark Eldar. Dont know much about them myself.

The Masque is the special Slanneshi Herald for the Daemons.

Oh ok, nevermind then. So its daemons then. Shows what I know about dark eldar. Like I said they are a mystery.

Looks like the Harlequin from Hell.

ZF-

When I first saw this picture my nipples got all hard and I was like "Oh snap! Dark Eldar is comin!?"... then I saw the cheesy lobster claw things and realized it was a slowed demon.

yea codex daemons comes out next, and DE should be shorty after (usually meaning like next year lol)

Unless they decide to do SM vs. DE in the 5th Ed Box Set, I wouldn't count on it.

Recent developments indicate that after Codex: Daemons, we'll have 5th Ed., then Codex: SM. I don't know what will come after that, but yeah, I wouldn't expect DE until Spring '09 at the earliest.

Current word is that the 5th Ed boxed set will be marines and orks. See this thread on Warseer for details: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129187

Soooooooo, Dark Eldar will have gone through 3 whole editions of 40k before they get a new codex... but Space Marines will have gotten 2 vanilla codex, 2 Dark Angel, 2 Blood Angel, 1 Black Templar, and 1 Space Wolf.

Yeah, we can see where the love is.

Funny, DBM. Bastirous says he expects them next year. You respond saying no, the earliest they'll come out is Spring. . . of next year.

Well, to be fair, Bastirous was saying that they'd be next after Codex: Daemons, but yes - I didn't disagree with his assessment that they'd be next year.

At least they'll be getting a new Codex and not be Apocalypto'd!

Stelek wrote:At least they'll be getting a new Codex and not be Apocalypto'd!

Not exactly.

Many people *want* them to be getting a new Codex. These people like to pretend that Dark Eldar are getting the next slot, that their lack of sales somehow makes the Dark Eldar deserving of a lot of development work.

But there's precious little actual evidence of this, just a awful lot of wishful thinking and conjecture.

Dark Eldar won't move to Apocalypse as long as 40k doesn't do a major revamp. If there should ever be a major revamp of the 40k game engine, I expect that the Dark Eldar will be Squatted as soon as their 40k3 Codex is no longer compatible.

What's the deal with the lobster claw anyways? IN THE GRIMDARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE ARE ONLY FISHERMEN? I can't think of who else would lust after lobster...

smart_alex wrote:Shows what I know about dark eldar. Like I said they are a mystery.

Yes, they're not what they seem to be. They're always a mystery.

Just like you and me.

I'd love to see them update the dark eldar, and the test Harmonculi minis makes me think that someone on the GW side is at the very least thinking about it. Rumors I've heard suggest that they're going to completely rework the backstory for the ED

Those "test Harmonculi minis" to which you refer are not test minis at all. They are unreleased sculpts Juan Diaz did as interview/audition pieces which then resulted in his being hired by GW. This was many years ago. They most certainly not "evidence" that work is being done on the DE now or in the recent past.

Well i would expect them to redo IG and inquisition after the DE or 5th ed codex comes out. Its going on 5 years i believe for IG.

5 years is laughable. Since the 4th edition Marine Codex, DE have had the oldest dex in print. I think its going on 10-11 years?

Any rumor to them getting a new dex I would assume to be a 10th anniversary cover of the current one.

In that span, they recieved one update, wereas other armies, even orks, recieved tons.

I would love to see a new DE dex. Not that the current one is underpowered.

Oh come on, they had an update 3-4 years ago. That counts for something.

For what it is worth. I spoke to a GW rep and he was pretty sure considering what Games Workshop has done in the past that the DE would be getting a rules update in say a WD before any codex and then eventually have new sculpted models and a new codex.

The problem is Space Marines are where it's at (Chaos or Imperial) and the Xenos races don't bring in the money like Marines do.

It was explained to me this way. Every year 15yr olds buy Space Marines. Even if they don't stay with the game the following year there will always be more 15yr olds to buy Space Marines that year.

Commissar wrote:For what it is worth. I spoke to a GW rep and he was pretty sure considering what Games Workshop has done in the past that the DE would be getting a rules update in say a WD before any codex and then eventually have new sculpted models and a new codex.

Was this "GW rep" director of marketing? Is he in the position to greenlight a DE codex or determine if any studio resources will be allocated towards a DE update? Because if not, then those assurances/speculation are worthless.

KiMonarrez wrote:Oh come on, they had an update 3-4 years ago. That counts for something.

There last and only update was more like 5-6. They last recieved an update when we still had chapter approved in WD. DE got the shaft. Orks have had speed freaks, ferals, a clan system and now a new dex. The only other army to get shafted as much as them is SoB. They had to wait all of 3rd for a codex, and now wont see one in 4th.

Reasons why DE got the shaft?

Poor execution from the beginning resulted in low popularity of the army, thus low sales. Compare this to Orks or Marines who have a rich, well developed concept and good models. Consequently, they sell well and as such continue to receive support. It's a positive feedback loop.

And not to bring up the much discussed LatD, but they're much more screwed than the poor DE.

I mean, there are a lot of incongruities between the fluff of the Eldar and their rules as far as why and how they go to war, but I mean with the Dark Eldar there's not even a semblance of logic as to how their society operates and continues to survive. DE fluff sucks, their core miniatures suck (Warriors and Raider chassis vehicles, I'm looking at you - don't even get me started on Warp Beasts, tho those aren't core) - thus, the number of folks that regularly play DE are vastly outnumbered by folks playing other armies.

Here's the kicker, though. This is what really tells me that people aren't interested in DE. You can still build competitive armies with their Codex. While lots of other things in 40K have changed that have nerfed one army or the other, nothing has changed that has made it so that you can't compete with a DE army.

And yet how often do you see people running DE armies? That's how much the aesthetics of an army drives interest and consequently, sales.

Particularly with 5th Ed coming out, there's all sorts of more interesting projects for GW developers to work on instead of revamping DE fluff and models. And until things dry up enough for someone to really get a bee in their bonnet about doing this for DE, I don't think we'll be seeing anything new for them in a while.

I could see if GW really wanted to do something in the interim with some changes to DE rules that they could do a WD Codex like they did with Blood Angels. But frankly, right now there's just not anything interesting enough about DE to do anything more than that.

The sad part is that the DE don't even need a major rewrite. Most of the list is fine there are just some parts that are out of sync with the current rules.

While I (and I'm sure most DE players) would love to see a full re-write, a thorough update and a WD codex would suffice.

Kymera wrote:The sad part is that the DE don't even need a major rewrite. Most of the list is fine there are just some parts that are out of sync with the current rules.

While I (and I'm sure most DE players) would love to see a full re-write, a thorough update and a WD codex would suffice.

Death By Monkeys wrote:...their core miniatures suck (Warriors and Raider chassis vehicles, I'm looking at you - don't even get me started on Warp Beasts, tho those aren't core) - thus, the number of folks that regularly play DE are vastly outnumbered by folks playing other armies.

...And yet how often do you see people running DE armies? That's how much the aesthetics of an army drives interest and consequently, sales.

QFT. That's the heart of it- they're fugly and lack character, so few people want to play them. That's enough to sink the line.

But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar. Heck, with open-topped fast transports and assault-oriented wych cults making one aspect of DE easy to play (versus the difficult of delicate maneuver armies), they could end up _more_ popular than Eldar for entry-level players.

Savnock wrote:But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar.

And so could LatD, Ad Mech, Hrud, Squats, and Pan Fo. That doesn't mean any of those armies are getting released. If GW are going to invest all these resources to basically do an army from scratch why should that army be DE? If they're essentially introducing a "new" race to the game, is it wise to pick the candidate with a proven track record of poor sales?

I'm not a big fan of them, but I do have a army of the massed DE that pull the ork tactics of massed troops rushing with mass. They really lack the tanks, titans, or flyers to be relevent, anymore.

The 30in shot kinda helps, even though they don't last long. Keep them pinned, then roll in from the sides.

The wiches were meh, but as for close combat, you get what you get.

They were ok for 3d edition, but I'd rather see some LATD before we go back to these guys first. If they go the route of the " New Jervisified kentucky fried "40K, don't hold your breath for a remake until 2021.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Savnock wrote:But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar.

And so could LatD, Ad Mech, Hrud, Squats, and Pan Fo. That doesn't mean any of those armies are getting released. If GW are going to invest all these resources to basically do an army from scratch why should that army be DE? If they're essentially introducing a "new" race to the game, is it wise to pick the candidate with a proven track record of poor sales?

Well, they do have a small but dedicated fanbase already using the current minis. If someone is _that-... um, interested, they would be an easy sell for a whole new set of much-better figs. Plus, if they make DE more integrated with the wider Eldar fluff, there would be considerable crossover appeal. Especially if the jetbikes were usable for both armies with only a few magnets.

And while they don't have tons of good fluff, some decent basework has been done. by basework, i mean mainly carving them a place amongst the 40K background, with a nice "vacant 'till wecan write something worthwhile" sign hanging from it. Between this and the fairly-workable current rules to start from they have quite a bit already invested, and many otherwise-significant costs sunk.

Finally, there's the large amount of interest they get on internet forums (not that that matters much, but good marketers do follow such things).

I just don't think they're going the way of the squat anytime soon.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Commissar wrote:For what it is worth. I spoke to a GW rep and he was pretty sure considering what Games Workshop has done in the past that the DE would be getting a rules update in say a WD before any codex and then eventually have new sculpted models and a new codex.

Was this "GW rep" director of marketing? Is he in the position to greenlight a DE codex or determine if any studio resources will be allocated towards a DE update? Because if not, then those assurances/speculation are worthless.

This was just a GW employee. He was just making an educated guess with the 10 plus years experience he had with the company based on what they had done previously. He didn't say when a codex or new rules would come out or even speculate what would be in it. So this is just speculation, but fun speculation.

I was told by a GW manager when I was back in New England that he had spoken to a district or regional manager of some sort and was told the DE would not be phased out.

That was over a year ago though so things might have changed.

However I have heard from other GW employees a lot of the same things that I'm reading here. Specificly how the DE are a certain type of army that people don't feel the need to play. Of all the forces of anarchy/chaos/disorder that people like to play the "dark pirate space elves that like torture" just don't do it for them.

I've alwaysw thought they should have their own craftworld and have the options to be pirates or maybe be worshipers of Tzeentch.

I'd buy Demiurg (squats) before I buy revamped Dark Eldar.

Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves, plain and simple. They exist solely to parity their fantasy counterpart.

Thier tech isn't as good as Eldar.
Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids.
Thier not as shooty as tau/marines/edlar/etc..
Thier fiction is weak
Thier models are some of the worst in 40K
They barely make any money for GW
They could disapear tommorow and not really impact the fictional universe of 40K

They are a so so army at best, that appeals to elf lovers and S&M freaks.

They got an updated codex, and that is probably how they will remain untill they fall into obscurity.

As much as I love the style of a more sinister Craftworld Eldar army (which I covered with my present eldar anyway), the Dark Eldar just don't cut it. They don't add anything to the 40k universe play- and fluffwise, just like adamsouza said.

Hrud or Squats, that would be something interesting.

I like the Dark Elves in Fantasy much more than their high elf pendants. Strange, but I cannot say the same for the Dark Eldar guys...

Greets
Schepp himself

adamsouza wrote:I'd buy Demiurg (squats) before I buy revamped Dark Eldar.

Heh. See now, let's go through your list below to see if Demiurg (Squats), or heck even Hrud (Space Skaven) would make for a better army.

adamsouza wrote:Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves, plain and simple. They exist solely to parity their fantasy counterpart.

As I imagine Demiurg or Hrud would also be.

adamsouza wrote:Thier tech isn't as good as Eldar.
Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids.
Thier not as shooty as tau/marines/edlar/etc..
Thier fiction is weak
Thier models are some of the worst in 40K
They barely make any money for GW
They could disapear tommorow and not really impact the fictional universe of 40K

Other than points 5 and 6 which we don't know about because there aren't any minis for Demiurg or Hrud yet, I think that all of the points in that list could apply equally to Demiurg or Hrud. As far as the point about S&M freaks goes, well, isn't Slaanesh good enough for them? I think GW's got better things to do with their time than rehash fantasy analogs in 40K. DE may not be "phased out" per se, but seems to me like GW's modus operandi for armies they're not interested in is to just leave them to dessicate in the cold, lonely winds of the Warp, maintaining them with as little effort as possible - I mean, seriously, Chaos Dwarves in WHFB haven't received an update since Ravening Hordes, but you can still download their armylist on GW's website. So, they haven't been "phased out", but you're sure not going to see too many folks playing 'em these days.

Actually, I think Chaos Dwarfs are a pretty good analogy to the Dark Eldar - okay rules (well, CDs have worse rules really), but ugly minis and weak fluff. GW keeps 'em on life support, though, just so folks can't ask if they've been Squatted/Fimired/Fishmanned.

The sad thing about DE sucking so much is that they have the best skimmers in the game. Aside from the pointy bits, my dudes would be riding those things all day searching for highly-trained psykers and shoving them off a plank into a slaaneshi monster with a beak.

I dunno. I think their skimmer/WWP approach is pretty unique. Codex: Daemons may steal their warp gate thunder, but then don't get me started on the concept work behind that book...

Heh. See now, let's go through your list below to see if Demiurg (Squats), or heck even Hrud (Space Skaven) would make for a better army.

Apples and Oranges comparison.

Your trying to compare a failed army (DE) to armies that haven't been released, or written yet.

New Armies ALWAYS generate $$$$ as everyone trips overthemselves trying to collect the newest cool army.

I guarentee that a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg would generate more cash than a Dark Eldar release on that alone.

adamsouza wrote:

Heh. See now, let's go through your list below to see if Demiurg (Squats), or heck even Hrud (Space Skaven) would make for a better army.

Apples and Oranges comparison.

Your trying to compare a failed army (DE) to armies that haven't been released, or written yet.

New Armies ALWAYS generate $$$$ as everyone trips overthemselves trying to collect the newest cool army.

I guarentee that a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg would generate more cash than a Dark Eldar release on that alone.

That's a fairly strong statement adam. How much did money did Demonhunters generate when they were released? And don't give me that "They already existed" crap. Compare that to say, how much did Sisters make when they were redone? Granted both are imperial armies which my askew the numbers a little, but I think you'd be better off either A, reviving Dark Eldar, or B, create something completely new that doesn't have a WHFB counterpart (no Hrud or Demiurg).

adamsouza wrote:Your trying to compare a failed army (DE) to armies that haven't been released, or written yet.

New Armies ALWAYS generate $$$$ as everyone trips overthemselves trying to collect the newest cool army.

I guarentee that a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg would generate more cash than a Dark Eldar release on that alone.

Okay, let's try to make it a little more apples to apples, then.

Would a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg generate more cash than a DE re-release? Probably.*

Would a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg generate more cash than has already been generated by the DE, including that initial rush as everyone tripped over themselves to collect the newest cool army? I doubt it.

Granted, DE were given a bit of an advantage by being packaged with the box set. Because of that, GW made sure that every player who bought a 3rd Ed box had the beginnings of a DE army and so were given the incentive to build a DE army. Frankly, I think that's probably why even as bad as the DE minis and fluff are that we still see DE armies around.


* Although depending on how completely GW revamped the DE line, you could have most of the existing DE players out there replacing their entire collection of sucky-looking models in addition to drawing in new DE players much as new Demiurg or Hrud players would be brought in.

adamsouza wrote:They are a so so army at best...

Current workability isn't a deciding factor against an army getting a new codex- quite the opposite, really. Otherwise broken codices would never get fixed, because they don't work. Bad logic.

'Sides which, there are plenty of high GT placements with DE now, and they're likely to get a big buff to increase sales. I'd say they are neither terribly underpowered, nor likely to be underpowered in the future.

...that appeals to elf lovers and S&M freaks.

Which are both big markets. Poncey, annoying, hilariously freakish markets to boot, but big spenders in general. And yeah, Slaanesh is interesting, but the "bad elves" thing has never lost it's cache'. Speaking of which:

Death by Monkeys wrote:I think GW's got better things to do with their time than rehash fantasy analogs in 40K.

Dude, 40K is at core a rehash of fantaasy in space- always has been, always will be. They change some of the concepts around (!!11!! THE KNIGHTS HAS POWERED ARMER!!111!! THE ORKS CANS DRIVE!!11), but it's at root a fantasy twist on space opera. And the core idea of "everything has an evil reflection" makes Dark Eldar a natu

Savnock wrote:Dude, 40K is at core a rehash of fantaasy in space- always has been, always will be. They change some of the concepts around (!!11!! THE KNIGHTS HAS POWERED ARMER!!111!! THE ORKS CANS DRIVE!!11), but it's at root a fantasy twist on space opera.

Okay. You got me there. I want to disagree and point out where that's not the case, but I don't have enough evidence to argue otherwise. I mean going back to Rogue Trader, I'd say that Space Marines were more Starship Trooper MI troops than knights, but RT also introduced Space Orks, Eldar, and Squats to us. I also wanted to point out that Tyranids are more stolen from Aliens than anything in Fantasy, but then I remembered that the original 'Nids were actually reptiles more closely akin to the Slann than to the insectoids they became.

EDIT- genuniely odd double post. Sorry.

That's a fairly strong statement adam. How much did money did Demonhunters generate when they were released? And don't give me that "They already existed" crap. Compare that to say, how much did Sisters make when they were redone? Granted both are imperial armies which my askew the numbers a little, but I think you'd be better off either A, reviving Dark Eldar, or B, create something completely new that doesn't have a WHFB counterpart (no Hrud or Demiurg).

Skipping the questions I can't possibly provide answers for..

If your PRO DE of course you want to see them redone, if your not, like me, them releasing anything else is an improvement.

Now, I do agree with you that a fresh new army, like TAU, would be preferable to a fantasy parity army

I disagree with DE rehash woud outsell Demiurg or Hrud.

Putting the DE in the old boxset was the biggest thing DE had going for them. Everyone had some, and you either tried them out, or traded them cheap to someone else who was willing to. That situation is not going to repeat itself.

DE already exist and are currently availalble. I would much rather see time and money spent to develop additional armies.

A completely new army would be best, but a yet unreleased fantasy parity army (Demiurg, Hrud) would be preferable to a rehash of a fantasy parity army they already did.

No amount of wishfull elfloving thinking will change that

Current workability isn't a deciding factor against an army getting a new codex- quite the opposite, really. Otherwise broken codices would never get fixed, because they don't work. Bad logic.

My point wasn't that they needed help. DE are the poster child for vanilla army design that was prevelant in early 3E.
They aren't broke, they don't need fixing, they just aren't particularly good at anything.

My point is that only DE Diehards want them redone.

I know more people who play LOTR than play DE.
I know more people who play Demonhunters than DE.
I know more people who play *Insert ANY 40K army here* than DE.
I know more people who own/play Gorkamorka/Mordheim/Necromunda/BloodBowl than DE.
I know more people who would play Squats over DE if given the choice.

I can't even recall the last time I saw someone field a DE army in my FLGS.

The internet has a way of bringing fetishists together, but they are still minorities. Whatever advocates for S&M elves there are in this thread, the hobby, on the planet, they clock in under 1% of the population.

It's not even the point. I LIKE S&M GOTH ELVES !!! That's why I collect Legions of Everblight.
DE just suck, they have little to no redeeming qualities.

IF ANYONE IS GOING TO ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THIS, ARGUE THIS POINT.
WHAT ARE THE REDEEMING QUALITIES OF DARK ELDAR AND WHY SHOULD NON DARK ELDAR FANATICS WANT THEM TO GET LOVE ?

Hmm, I'll bite. What are the redeeming qualities of Dark Eldar and why should non-Dark Eldar fanatics want them to get love?

Well, Dark Eldar present a style of play that is somewhat hard to find in other armies. An incredibly fast strike force capable of being in the enemies deployment zone on turn 1. Now there are a couple armies that can do this as well (Speed Freaks, Eldar, Tyranids), but Dark Eldar do it with a different type of style. They're a glass cannonball which is appealing to some players. Eldar can do a lot of the same things, but without cool Chaos additions. They're like the Chaos version of Eldar. Now before you say that anything Dark Eldar can do Space Marines can do better it doesn't matter. Space Marines > All and that's why they should die in a .

Commissar wrote:I was told by a GW manager when I was back in New England that he had spoken to a district or regional manager of some sort and was told the DE would not be phased out.

That was over a year ago though so things might have changed.

And there's the kicker. I'm sure they don't "intend" to discontinue the DE. I'm sure they "plan" to revisit them "someday" - just like I "intend" to paint all the minis I own "eventually".

Savnock wrote:And while they don't have tons of good fluff, some decent basework has been done. by basework, i mean mainly carving them a place amongst the 40K background, with a nice "vacant 'till wecan write something worthwhile" sign hanging from it. Between this and the fairly-workable current rules to start from they have quite a bit already invested, and many otherwise-significant costs sunk.

The 40k universe is a big place. Plenty of races have room in the fluff for expansion. And the rules? Since when has GW given a sh!t about the rules? The last thing GW looks for when laying the groundwork for a new release is a set of "fairly-workable current rules" - the rules writers love fiddling just for the sake of fiddling so they'd probably end up screwing them up before release anyway. No, the big costs are the design concepts and the minis - and in the case of DE that's what would need to be redone from scratch. Of course they wouldn't be working from scratch - they'd have the awful drek that is the current DE fluff to contend with.

Quite simply put, DE are the mouth-breathing Morley-esque midget-bearing mongoloids of the 40k universe and it's high time Tina Turner put them out of our misery with a few well-placed crossbow bolts through the chest.

I just don't think they're going the way of the squat anytime soon.

But they are. Their codex was released at the very beginning of 3rd and they've gone through an entire edition without an update. Remember what happened to the squats? GW didn't suddenly come out one day and say "all your squat are belong to us". No, they simply let them founder without model releases or new rules until finally their old rules were no longer compatible with the core rules. "Going the way of the squat" is the default state for every army which doesn't have an upcoming codex release scheduled. Until they have a new codex on the way to the printers and new minis on the way to the stores, DE will be "going the way of the squat".

Stormtrooper X wrote:I think you'd be better off either A, reviving Dark Eldar, or B, create something completely new that doesn't have a WHFB counterpart (no Hrud or Demiurg).

WHFB counterpart? What WHFB counterpart? Let's do a comparison. Here, let me get out a Skaven mini and Hrud mini and compare them side-by-side. No sir, they don't look similar at all IMHO. Of course this might have something to do with the fact that Hrud minis do not exist. I don't see how you can claim a race has a WHFB counterpart when that race has no minis for it. DE on the other hand do.

adamsouza wrote:WHAT ARE THE REDEEMING QUALITIES OF DARK ELDAR AND WHY SHOULD NON DARK ELDAR FANATICS WANT THEM TO GET LOVE ?

I have a related question:

WHAT CAN THE DARK ELDAR ACCOMPLISH THAT COULDN'T BE ACCOMPLISHED LESS EMBARRASSINGLY (THAT IS, WITHOUT RESORTING TO THE LAMENESS INHERENT IN THE EVIL ELF ARCHETYPE) BY REPLACING ALL THE DARK ELDAR INFANTRY MODELS WITH DELICIOUS HERSHEY'S KISSES AND THE VEHICLES WITH TOBLERONES?

Stormtrooper X wrote:Hmm, I'll bite. What are the redeeming qualities of Dark Eldar and why should non-Dark Eldar fanatics want them to get love?

Well, Dark Eldar present a style of play that is somewhat hard to find in other armies. An incredibly fast strike force capable of being in the enemies deployment zone on turn 1. Now there are a couple armies that can do this as well (Speed Freaks, Eldar, Tyranids), but Dark Eldar do it with a different type of style. They're a glass cannonball which is appealing to some players. Eldar can do a lot of the same things, but without cool Chaos additions. They're like the Chaos version of Eldar. Now before you say that anything Dark Eldar can do Space Marines can do better it doesn't matter. Space Marines > All and that's why they should die in a .

So they do what other armies can do, only not as effeciently, but that's okay because being S&M Elves somehow makes it cool ?

I'm breaking out the Hershey Kisses and Toblerones....... at least I can have a tasty snack to wash the taste, of , out of my mouth.

How are evil elves any lamer than good elves? Elves are elves are elves.

It's like space marines and space marines with spikes. The spikes version is undoubtedly lame. Now add the fact that elves are lame and it's lame^lame. I don't know who would play such a crappy army.

I know two DE players that regularly finish at or near the top of rogue trader tournaments. They aren't from my area but I've seen them at tournaments and at Origins in Columbus, Ohio. Besides those two I know a few other people who play DE with not quite as much success.

I wasn't that interested in the army in the past, but as I get older the idea of wicked, psycopathic, piratical raiders gets more interesting. I play this game because I like to paint minis and imagine the epic conflicts between heroic space marines or imperial guard against the overwhelming orks/nids, or the corruption of chaos. Dark eldar fit right into this mold of insidious, implacable evil. Do the squats really add anything to the marine, guard, sob, or demonhunter armies? I don't even know anything about the Hrud, besides a couple of lines here and there.

I think the DE models kick ass. The army is sinister and dark, but somehow still alluring in a twisted way. I can sink my teeth into them, metaphorically speaking. The tyranids, while terrific on the table top, evince in me one idea, HUNGRY. Not exactly something that grabs me and holds on...

For a while about a month ago, I was actually pricing out all the bits I'd need to use the WHFB Skaven plastics with Kroot Rifles to make a Hrud counts-as DE army...It'd be easy to do, you'd have a decent army list, and nice models...just can't figure out what to do about those lousy Raider chassis skimmers.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Savnock wrote:But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar.

And so could LatD, Ad Mech, Hrud, Squats, and Pan Fo. That doesn't mean any of those armies are getting released. If GW are going to invest all these resources to basically do an army from scratch why should that army be DE? If they're essentially introducing a "new" race to the game, is it wise to pick the candidate with a proven track record of poor sales?

Well look at Wood Elves in Fantasy. They were the last to get a book, miniatures were ugly, and no one played them. GW redid the fluff, made some of the best plastic models ever, and now they are one of the more popular armies in WHFB. So I disagree that you should look at previous model sales as an indication of future model sales. Wood Elves proved that if you do it right, you can turn an unpopular army into a fantastic one.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You know what's funny, a lot of the people screaming to kill DE are the same people involved in the uber-whinefest that was the removal of LatD.

I just find that amusing.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I don't understand what all the hate is about here. Dark Eldar do have a backstory, it's a good backstory in fact, go read the little snippit by Andy Chambers on the UK site from a few years back, it's great. Fact of the matter is, though, Dark Eldar are the army for the advanced player, back when 40k had a scale for which armies were harder to play and which armies were easier. Jervis has already made it quite clear that they are currently working on the Dark Eldar line and they will be redone soon enough, and your hopes for Squats will never happen. Do you not remember when GW had their own forum? You could get kicked off for just mentioning that army, so what makes you think they'll ever come back? And from what I understand there were Space Skaven before, and nothing about the Hrud says Skaven to me, they're completely nocturnal and don't have advanced tech, Skaven are neither of these, in fact they're the highest tech army in fantasy. And to a prior comment, Dark Eldar wouldn't worship Tzeentch, they hate Chaos as much as most other armies.

No hate they are just the evil cousins of Eldar just like the chaos marines are the Evil brothers of Space marines.

Hell all we need now is the Evil brother of the Orks to turn up.

beef wrote:Hell all we need now is the Evil brother of the Orks to turn up.

Or do we need the Good brother of the Orks to turn up? You know, Orks that are all about peacefulness and getting along with each other.

adamsouza wrote:

So they do what other armies can do, only not as effeciently, but that's okay because being S&M Elves somehow makes it cool ?

I'm breaking out the Hershey Kisses and Toblerones....... at least I can have a tasty snack to wash the taste, of , out of my mouth.

Since when does having a similar tactical style matter in 40k? Tau and Eldar can both produce lists that play almost exactly the same (Mech Tau and 3 falcon jetbike lists). Marines and Chaos Marines can be played in manners which are virtually identical (gun line, rhino rush, deepstrike). Tau and Guard can produce similar armies as well (light gun line supported by tanks). The list goes on, and I can absolutely gurantee that none of these lists are equally efficient. What makes an army unique in 40k is the way in which potential styles combine to produce a distinct collection of options. It's simply not matter of "How can I max out one capability to make a list which dominates a single phase of the game?".

I think what your argument really comes down to a distaste for the aesthetic of DE, and that really isn't a reason to be so vehemently opposed to them getting new stuff. I don't like Tau, I don't think their fluff fits well in 40k, but that doesn't mean that I don't see a reason for them to get attention.

Also, every army in 40k is essentially a rehash of a fantasy archetype, if not a specific race from WHFB.
Empire = Guard + Inquisition + Sisters
Marines = Brets
Chaos = Chaos
Orcs = Orks (apparently k's are more futuristic)
VC/TK = Necrons
HE = Eldar
Lizardmen = Nids (hordes of specially bred soldiers lead by a hivemind/slan, though in this case I think it was more a case of sci-fi being brought to fantasy)
and, of course
DE = DE
But let's also be clear here, models might not exist for Demiurg or Hrud, but there are very clear ties to certain themes used in WHFB for both Dwarfs and Skaven.

Edit: Forgot Tau = WE (strong themes of harmony and preservation of an ideal, very similar mobile play style)

The Dark Eldar can be really cool as they are Eldar as they used to be. No limits, no excess to great, you can see in them how Slaanesh was born. They just need to delve in to that more and explain what makes the Dark Elves tick, rather than just, "we like torture and spikes!"

In gaming terms, they play unlike any other army out there and are difficult to play well (which along with the fugly models explains why their sales are lower than other armies).

BTW, I am not an elf lover (in fact, I've never like Eldar, High or Dark Elves, but do like Wood Elves) and am definitely not into BDSM. I play Dark Eldar because of the challenge, every win I've earned.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Unless they are doing a good job of keeping DE under wraps (or the pipe dream inspired dual release with Dark Elves), I think we only have a chance for an updated DE somewhat soon, if they put in some stripped down Army Lists in the core book like they did in 3rd or a paper booklet like 2nd that is shrinkwrapped with the Corebook. Or maybe a new FAQ (talk about a pipe dream).

Edit: I volunteer the Tau as the "good Orks." Both seem to be races engineered by some outside agency for unknown purposes. Orks have their innate tech, Tau have "superior" tech. Orks are green, Tau are blue. See, mirror twins of Good and Evil.

Ozymandias wrote:You know what's funny, a lot of the people screaming to kill DE are the same people involved in the uber-whinefest that was the removal of LatD.

The less armies around, the better chance that LatD will get picked back up.

I remember being of a similar opinion for my SoBs back in the day.

(I personally defend LatD these days because I think it could, if themed as "the whole Imperial military turned to Chaos" be a much better and flavorful Chaos than the Chaos Space Marine concept, which is basically normal Space Marines but with spikes.

Ozymandias wrote:Well look at Wood Elves in Fantasy. They were the last to get a book, miniatures were ugly, and no one played them. GW redid the fluff, made some of the best plastic models ever, and now they are one of the more popular armies in WHFB. So I disagree that you should look at previous model sales as an indication of future model sales. Wood Elves proved that if you do it right, you can turn an unpopular army into a fantastic one.

And that's why instead of Dark Eldar they should just do Exodites instead. I mean come on - a bunch of stupid ugly S&M elf pirates or elves riding big flippin' dinosaurs!!! Dinosaurs are totally awesome and that's a fact. And if you don't believe it they will bite your head off!!! It's an easy choice, if you ask me.

Ozymandias wrote:You know what's funny, a lot of the people screaming to kill DE are the same people involved in the uber-whinefest that was the removal of LatD.

LatD aren't made out of elf.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And that's why instead of Dark Eldar they should just do Exodites instead. I mean come on - a bunch of stupid ugly S&M elf pirates or elves riding big flippin' dinosaurs!!! Dinosaurs are totally awesome and that's a fact. And if you don't believe it they will bite your head off!!! It's an easy choice, if you ask me.

True dat, yo. Not to mention the fact that they've already got a good portion of the models done - Cold Ones, Carnosaurs, and Stegadons are already done. Man, that's a good chunk of the design budget you don't have to worry about!

So you're a racist then. I knew it!!

BTW, when I said, "a lot of people", I was only referring to you abby.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I was going to say something about objections here being really aesthetic rather than business-based, but Dogma beat me to it. If you don't care for an army's play style, don't play them. Play against them, and learn to beat them, or take your toys and go home.

LaTD is different from other armies because most of their minis are puled from other lines, reducing the shelf space they take up (which makes it even more slowed that they aren't supported). They're really not in competition with other lines for anything other than rules development. So DE development does not shove aside LaTD development. That argument is not sound.

And right on Ozy about the WE example. DE are unpopular because the minis are fugly, not because of crappy rules (they're actually pretty good compared to the rules WH and DH are stuck with). if they had good minis, and the fluff were expanded in an interesting direction (like the obvious but interesting "this is the way most Eldar were before the Fall"), they could sell well and be fun to have around. Whether you like S&M space elves or not.

Speaking of crappy minis, the plastics aren't that bad with a head switch and sans the add-on spikes. I'm using them as the base for Exodite conversions, and they aren't half bad. Everything metal in the line is unsalvageably terrible though, with the exception of the special characters. Did Juan Diaz do the characters while someone else did the Wyches, plastics, etc.? I'd like to know who to blame...

Savnok hit the head on the nail with Fugly minaitures and underdeveloped fluff.

My point is that I would much rather see them do something non evil elf related, that attempt to fix Dark Eldar.

They redo Chaos over, and over, and over, and over, and I still don't play them. Them doing Dark eldar a third time around seems about as usefull

I have 3 units of Wyches made from Dark Elf Witch Elves. Simple weapon swaps and I have units that look great.

I don't mind the Raider, but the character models are terrible and the plastic warriors are staticriffic.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The Warrior models are what kills it for me, and I don't see myself buying a ton of whyches. They need to redo some of the models badly.

Ozymandias wrote:BTW, when I said, "a lot of people", I was only referring to you abby.

I know.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Not to mention the fact that they've already got a good portion of the models done - Cold Ones, Carnosaurs, and Stegadons are already done.

Well, they've got the Carnosaurs done. As for the Cold Ones and Stegadons... well, that goes right back to our original problem of releasing an army of super-fugly minis, now doesn't it?

Lots of hate here heheh.

I still see a bunch of DE out there so no, players have not abandond the army. Some posts are dead on. The models are ugly and two dimensional except for the raiders and ravagers. They are just damn ugly . They need to update the models and yeah some of their rules just dont make sense in the current rules set.
GW is in the buisness of selling models, the rules are a side thread. When they release new armies with good minis they sell a boatload of stuff, granted it sits on alot of shelves but they sell none the less and that is what they care about. If they released good looking models for DE they would sell. Not just for those of us that have some strange loyalty towards them but because they were good looking and functional again. I dont play em much now at tourneys because they are mainly embarrassing to look at!!
As for starting a "new race" rather than working on DE I have to say WTF?!?! Do you realize the time investment and logistics of that? OOO a new army based on a race of slime..... Work on an army that already has a customer base rather than try to develop a new race completely. There are several races with "evil versions" (SM-CSM, Tau-Oshavah, IG-Latd, E-DE). Heck in Demonhunters you can be heretical if you want so even in the "ultimate good guys" you have bad.
I agree with the statement of the plastic warriors are not bad if you chunk the heads and spikes but the rest is junk.

adamsouza wrote:Savnok hit the head on the nail with Fugly minaitures and underdeveloped fluff.

My point is that I would much rather see them do something non evil elf related, that attempt to fix Dark Eldar.

They redo Chaos over, and over, and over, and over, and I still don't play them. Them doing Dark eldar a third time around seems about as usefull

Yeah, and you don't play Dark Eldar either, the people out there that do play the army have a right to see their army redone, just like everyone else. I waited years jumping from army to army, waiting for the Ork codex to be redone, now it's finally here. There's no sense saying you don't want the codex redone just because you want to see something other than "evil elves". Well maybe some people would like to see something done other than "evil guard" or Marines, or maybe some people were mad because Orks got redone, it still doesn't mean it shouldn't be redone, these players deserve to have their armies updated, plain and simple.

Well, I wouldn't say its a "right" but I do agree. Dark Eldar have models, a codex of their own, and at least some fluff. LatD had the fluff but that's about it. They never had a proper codex and never had their own models.

So I do think that DE is more deserving of an update than LatD.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Burna Stompa wrote:Yeah, and you don't play Dark Eldar either, the people out there that do play the army have a right to see their army redone, just like everyone else.

Yeah, Ozy beat me to the punch, but none of us have a right to see any of our armies redone. Just because we've paid some money to play an army doesn't mean that army will continue to be supported. I'm not saying this because I think the DE should or shouldn't be supported. I'm just pointing out that we're not talking about a democracy here. AFAIK, GW's never produced a Gamer's Bill of Rights. This is capitalism. And if enough players make something economically viable for the designers to turn their attention to it, then the company will get to work on it. I mean, you can have horrible fluff, bad minis, and bad rules, but as long as you get enough people to show they'll pay through the nose and make the company a profit, GW'll find a way to make it work.

By this logic, for the monetary investment I put into my Star Wars collection as a youngster, I had a right for Star Wars episodes I-III be a helluva lot better than they were. But does George Lucas give a damn about me? Nah. I don't think so.

You also make an interesting point - as long as you continue playing other armies, jumping from army to army, not only do you not encourage your old Codex to be redone, with your dollars spent on these other armies, you're showing your support for these other lines and showing why they deserve more support.

I hope they relaunch DE. Cool theme, some fugly models. Plus, the difference between anything else and DE is a lot more than the difference between Blue, Red, Green, Grey, and Black Marines - combined. What the metagame needs now is less MEQ.

There is plenty of sense in it. I have the 'right' to express my opinion on how piss poor of an idea the Dark Eldar are. I also have the 'right' to express the opinion that they should invest their time in to producing something different.

You are free to disagree with me, but so far that strongest argument for Dark Eldar in this thread, so far, has boiled down to people who already have a fetish for Dark Eldar wanting more, I'm not feeling the strength of the other side of the argument.

If the argument was:
I have a dwarf fetish.
Space Dwarves exist in 40K.
GW Needs to spend millions releaseing Squats

You'd tear my argument apart in a minute.

But, substitute Dark Eldar for Squat and it somehow becomes a valid argument ?

I think not

I dont believe any army is superior over another and I would rather see a LaTD army and a DE rather than one go into obscurity. This coming from a DE player of +5 years.

There are 3 things that prevent a DE from being a popular army and the firs tis of course the horrid model line. Can you really find another army out there that has for their models one with a**less chaps? Another is a lack of support.

Aside from the update 5-6 years ago, DE have gotten little or no support by GW rather than just existing and without a decent push how do you expect to sell them? I have been inside a GW store where I was looking at some of the DE minis and to have a GW employee try and discourage me from them and rather space marines until I told him I play with the army and that shut him up right there there could have been a potential loss of sales for DE. Now also they are using a 3rd edition codex that doesn't even have any troops with infiltration along with a design philosophy made for 3rd.

Finally the army is not meant for a beginner and never really has been. I had the unfortunate luck of going through months of losing before I could win with the army when I started out. The army hits hard but cant take a hit back and thats where many of the new players rather than toughen up and learn, really prefer instant gratification and choose an army with a more forgiving margin of error.

Am I a fluff fanatic of Dark Eldar, not really but I enjoy the playing style of Dark Eldar and the challenge of the army rather than another Space marine army, or a mindless army like orks or nids. The same fluff argument can be made with any other army with Orks its "we love to fight waaggh!" or Nids is "we devour you", DH/WH "kill/purge/cleanse impure deamon/psyker/infidel".

JJ admitted that the real reason we lost the Squats, was not sales (which were quite good, especially for an army that never got a Codex of its own), it was the lack of a champion for the Squats on the Design Team (now a bean counter might do ). This is why almost all Chapter Approved armies never got any farther than such. I, for one, would buy a Squat army if they came back (and I admittedly mocked and scorned them during the original release). I like the DE codex (I have used it as a proxy for AdMech), their fluff is ok, but the models are MegaFugly.

The last word I heard about Dark Eldar was that Jes Goodwin had taen a personal interest in the range. This was at GDLA IIRC.

That's a good sign in my book.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

adamsouza wrote:There is plenty of sense in it. I have the 'right' to express my opinion on how piss poor of an idea the Dark Eldar are. I also have the 'right' to express the opinion that they should invest their time in to producing something different.

You're right, you do have those rights. But unless you're a shareholder, can convince enough other people to vote with their wallets or via other methods (see what happened with the show 'Jericho'), or get a court order, you don't have a right to force the company to do something they don't want to do. But yes, you and everyone else can certainly voice their opinions about it. What else is the internet for?

As far as the opinions for and against, I don't really see convincing arguments either way. Consequently, all I see is DE and any other new races being a low priority with GW for a while.

Death By Monkeys wrote:By this logic, for the monetary investment I put into my Star Wars collection as a youngster, I had a right for Star Wars episodes I-III be a helluva lot better than they were.

OT: Nobody has a right for Star Wars Episode III to be a helluva lot better than it was. Wait, scratch that. Star Wars Episode III was a helluva lot better than it had any right to be. I mean come on - the Emperor throws the freaking Galactic Senate at Yoda! The Senate! Besides being a delightful allegorical take on how Big Government and the Man conspire to use the legislative system to keep the little guy down, it's just plain hilarious - Sidious sure seems to think so - just look at the fun that guy's having! Episode III is by far my favorite Star Wars movie. I laugh out loud every time someone gets some force lightning to the face - AWESOME! Of course I always just skip all the scenes that don't have Ian McDiarmid in them and I'm usually drinking heavily throughout so maybe I'm not watching the same movie as everybody else...

I think there may be some confusion over cause and effect here. I believe that DE don't sell well because, primarily, there is no effort to improve them or market them. Most new players probably have never heard of them or seen them being played, ever. It seems that people believe that DE aren't supported because they are poor sellers, when it seems like it should be the other way around.

Personally, I love the "we can't take a paperclip to the face, but we can shove a squatmillion darklances down your throat" approach of the army. I even like the Raider models, and the warrior models wouldn't be so bad with some alterations. I just never played them because I hated the other half of the range, and........

All the Emo kids played them.

Dark Eldar should have been the Eldar Pirates from the RT era. They lack the Eldar feel, almost entirely, and they don't even have the best aspects of the Dark Elves.

They remind me of generic evil elves, with pilfered Air Raider vehicles and skyboards they stole from the Masters of the Universe Movie.

If I were ever decision impared enough to decide to collect and field them, I would use Dark Elf Models as much as possible.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Savnock wrote:But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar.

And so could LatD, Ad Mech, Hrud, Squats, and Pan Fo. That doesn't mean any of those armies are getting released.

The DE Fluff and minis range is very limited, so there is no way the DE could ever be as viable as the regular Eldar. Remember that DE cannot be developed to the point where they compete with Tau as a mobile shooty force, nor specialized like Eldar Aspects. And playing a horde of any kind is the most anti-Eldar concept possible, while S3 T3 Power Armor is already covered by SoB. So without any special niche, DE are destined to be Squatted.

Chaos Traitors & Mutants would be a welcome addition to complete the 40k Trinity of Marines, Daemons, and Traitors. The list would be quite viable but ex-LatD players would have to accept generic Lesser Daemons and basic (Markable) CSM limited to a HQ option.

Adeptus Mechanicus would be an awesome army, as GW could really do a nice job with the Skittari. Plus, guys like Horweth have done a lot of the hard work already in terms of visual design.

Space Skaven / Hrud would be playable as a horde, and has a lot of room to explore.

I thought Pan Fo was already done as Tau? Not that there isn't room for another T3 horde army...

Of course if Dark Eldar were actually redone as *Chaos* Eldar, then they'd have some real potential...

I was actually a little disappointed when the latest Eldar rules came out and there's nothing saying that you can use the Harlequins with DE. I mean, there's fluff saying that you should be able to. I mean, GW could throw the DE players a bone.

I was thinking about what it would take to improve DE, and I came to similar conclusion that they should have a greater tie to chaos.

What really seperates them from Eldar is supposed to be their link to Slaneesh right ?

Add in some demonic traits, some lesser demons, and a possesed HQ and Elites, and I think they could go somewhere.

It would also explain their facination with spikes/evil/debauchery/etc...

Although, I think actually calling them Chaos Eldar would be terrible. They need to make up something, in Eldar, that would basically mean Fallen Ones or something.

Um, they don't really have a link to Slaanesh. I mean, they don't worship her/him/it. They do try to keep it at bay by feeding it souls, and otherwise try to evade having their essences consumed. They might even have some form of communication with it, making deals until they lose. I'm not sure what their alternative to the infinity circuit is, or if they even have one. It can't be a good thing, though.

Speaking of which, one of the big fluff holes is where they get new DE. I mean, I'd think they would be even less motivated to reproduce than the regular Space Elves. Maybe the webway draws out their lifespan, but that life_style_ can't encourage longevity. Then again, maybe they're the Keith Richards of the 40K universe. Perhaps combat drugs have a pickling effect when used in quantity.

JohnHwang, when was the last time you played DE? They can be a really nasty mixed shooting/assault force, or a SAFH if fielded all-infantry with, as mentioned above, a squatmillion dark lances. Wych cults are scary too.

Savnock wrote:Then again, maybe they're the Keith Richards of the 40K universe.

Alright Savnock. You thought you could get away with it. You thought no one would notice. YOU THOUGHT WRONG!

By my DakkaKlok the above post occurred at 2008/03/22 06:55:51. But wait, what's this?

Savnock wrote:The legs inside that armor must be skinnier than Kieth Richards', even if it's ceramispandex.

That post was time-stamped 2008/03/21 18:46:10 - not more than 13 hours prior! That's TWO Keith Richards references in less than 24 hrs!

I'm sorry Savnock, but you've left me no choice but to write you up for excessive Keith Richards reference.

Maybe a switch to a heavy infiltrating/scouting theme could make the DE play a little bit different. They are raiders after all.

Greets
Schepp himself

I don't think just throwing demons and chaos marines into the mix is the way to go with Dark Eldar. They aren't worshippers of Chaos, they simply give into their lust for whatever they are interested in at the time. That doesn't automatically slap a mark of chaos on everyone.

What something a little more orky? I'm not talking squigs in raiders . What I mean is the "goofy" stuff that happens to Orks (like a stormboy being shot off into space) DE can simulate with their souls being destroyed. Example, hmm, say the leader of a warrior unit has some psychic ability, something nasty, but if he uses it there is a good chance he goes "poof". Could be a cool last ditch thing to show Dark Eldar being desperate. It's just an idea I'm throwing out there. I don't want the idea of a Dark Eldar Imperial Psycher or something.

Awwee come one, Eldar Are resposible for creating Slaneesh aren't they ?

Their wanton lust and excess is what Slaneesh is all about.

How can they not have a connection to Slaneesh ?

It is true that they created Slaneesh, but they do not worship him. They fear him.

I'd say that DE are just the remanent of what the eldar were like at the time of the fall. They are the only "pure eldar" left, unrestricted by the need to follow the various "paths" that their craftworld breathren follow.

I could easily see them being the most fatalistic of all the eldar. I don't see DE with spiritstones. That says a lot to me. They see the fall of the eldar for what it was. The fall. They recognize that the eldar will never gain a position of prominence in the galaxy again. So they take the position of "let's just enjoy ourselves while we can." And as has been well documented in the eldar fluff, most eldar exhibitted the behavior exactly like the DE at the time of the fall, when they were indulging in their every desire.

Now, to the point I wanted to make. I wouldn't think that they'd worship Slaanesh. They don't really worship anything. They just give in to all their hedonistic desires. That might explain DE horde armies too. I'm sure debauchery of the type that leads to procreation is also something that they give into. Just a guess.

Oh, and everything I wrote is my personal conjecture. None is supported by fluff.

This thread is throwing around background material that I've never seen in my life. As far as I know (unless it's in some crazy book) the Dark Eldar don't feed Slaanesh souls, they feed on the souls of others, which increases their lifespan. This is also why they don't wear spirit stones. Honestly, they have a bit more going on for them than this thread is giving them credit for. LatD aren't going to be given a codex, GW has already said this, because they supposedly 'work better for Apoc' which is fine and dandy for me (and yes I'm aware of the petition to get LatD a codex). However, GW does have it's eye on Dark Eldar, they haven't been swept under the rug like LatD. For all of the LatD junkies out there, JJ has stated that the Legions will be getting books, so when the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers get their books, you've got your basic LatD armies, right there before you, you'll just be an Alpha Legion or Word Bearers player rather than an LatD player, so you are getting what could be considered a codex, then Dark Eldar players and LatD players are happy, and this thread becomes a bunch of us yelling at each other for no reason.

Burna Stompa wrote: For all of the LatD junkies out there, JJ has stated that the Legions will be getting books, so when the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers get their books, you've got your basic LatD armies...

As much as I'd LOVE to see that happen, do you really think it is?

And, if you really do, when?

JJ says a lot, but really, if ALL of the Legions were to get a Codex, what edition of 40K would the last one come out in?

Bottom line, it isn't going to happen.

Savnock wrote:JohnHwang, when was the last time you played DE? They can be a really nasty mixed shooting/assault force, or a SAFH if fielded all-infantry with, as mentioned above, a squatmillion dark lances. Wych cults are scary too.

It doesn't matter that I haven't played them in years - suffice to say that I've played them with their current Codex.

My point isn't that they aren't playable. My point is that they aren't distinctively playable. They aren't as special as they should be, and that is a problem that can only be fixed by reconcepting the army.

Schepp himself wrote:Maybe a switch to a heavy infiltrating/scouting theme could make the DE play a little bit different. They are raiders after all.

That turns DE into the old Alaitoc Ranger / Pathfinder army, which was great as a scenario, lousy as a standard army. Having them be raiders / pirates isn't terrible, but from the Imperial POV, there's precious little difference between an Craftworld Eldar Corsair and a Dark Eldar Pirate.


Until such time as the Studio has a champion to push for a well-themed chaos / fallen / pirate Dark Eldar army with appropriate Fluff, they're just going to sit in limbo.

Stormtrooper X wrote:When I first saw this picture my nipples got all hard and I was like "Oh snap! Dark Eldar is comin!?"... then I saw the cheesy lobster claw things and realized it was a slowed demon.

XDXDXDXD HAHAHHAH lol....

.... does anyone likes the eldar ... cuz i dont know anyone who does....

,... only the scorpid thing... is kinda cool...
... but.... kinda .... .... and in our gw store the only thing you can buy of darkeldar is ... the darkeldar battleforce.... (hehe bearforce 1)

no no no... ... eldar rox! but does anyone likes the darkeldar?

Alpharius wrote:

Burna Stompa wrote: For all of the LatD junkies out there, JJ has stated that the Legions will be getting books, so when the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers get their books, you've got your basic LatD armies...

As much as I'd LOVE to see that happen, do you really think it is?

And, if you really do, when?

JJ says a lot, but really, if ALL of the Legions were to get a Codex, what edition of 40K would the last one come out in?

Bottom line, it isn't going to happen.

I think that it's true, but it'll take a while - probably roughly 1 book per year. The first book (Khorne) wouldn't likely come out until 2009 or 2010. The last book (Tzeentch) probably wouldn't come out until the very end of 5th Edition in 2012 or 2013.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Burna Stompa wrote: For all of the LatD junkies out there, JJ has stated that the Legions will be getting books, so when the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers get their books, you've got your basic LatD armies...

As much as I'd LOVE to see that happen, do you really think it is?

And, if you really do, when?

JJ says a lot, but really, if ALL of the Legions were to get a Codex, what edition of 40K would the last one come out in?

Bottom line, it isn't going to happen.

I think that it's true, but it'll take a while - probably roughly 1 book per year. The first book (Khorne) wouldn't likely come out until 2009 or 2010. The last book (Tzeentch) probably wouldn't come out until the very end of 5th Edition in 2012 or 2013.

I don't think so. The first "book" already came out and it covers Tzeentch. And by "book" I mean "datasheet". That's all we're getting. They will also be releasing "box sets" to go along with these "releases". And by "box sets" I mean "bitz packs". And by "releases" I mean "kicks to the babymakers".

Fishmonk: Please type in full sentences in normal English. Netspeak like you're using is difficult to understand.

Thanks!

Personally I would have bought Dark Eldar if the minis weren't atrocious. If the warp beasts looked like the ones in DOW: Soulstorm, If the warriors looked more like warriors and less like gymnasts with guns, if only the folks on the jet bikes weren't half naked for some reason...

But Alas, they are just too damn fugly (except for scourges).

JohnHwangDD wrote:My point isn't that they aren't playable. My point is that they aren't distinctively playable. They aren't as special as they should be, and that is a problem that can only be fixed by reconcepting the army.

I think that's a very valid point. They can have very competitive armies, but there's nothing about that play style that's terribly exciting or interesting.

And Savnock, I'm glad that Abby schooled you on the double-Keith references...that really was a bit much for two threads.

Iorek wrote:Fishmonk: Please type in full sentences in normal English. Netspeak like you're using is difficult to understand.

Thanks!

It's possible that English is not his first language...Especially considering that he has a Dutch Flag by his name...
If he is speaking like that on purpose I agree that he should stop...but if he is being as fluent as he can we should cut him some slack.
Well there's my two cents

CplPunishment wrote:

Iorek wrote:Fishmonk: Please type in full sentences in normal English. Netspeak like you're using is difficult to understand.

Thanks!

It's possible that English is not his first language...Especially considering that he has a Dutch Flag by his name...
If he is speaking like that on purpose I agree that he should stop...but if he is being as fluent as he can we should cut him some slack.
Well there's my two cents

He's obviously doing it on purpose. ESL writers don't type things like "kinda."

Iorek wrote:Fishmonk: Please type in full sentences in normal English. Netspeak like you're using is difficult to understand.

Thanks!

oh sorry

but dark eldar are still not cool...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Burna Stompa wrote: For all of the LatD junkies out there, JJ has stated that the Legions will be getting books, so when the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers get their books, you've got your basic LatD armies...

As much as I'd LOVE to see that happen, do you really think it is?

And, if you really do, when?

JJ says a lot, but really, if ALL of the Legions were to get a Codex, what edition of 40K would the last one come out in?

Bottom line, it isn't going to happen.

I think that it's true, but it'll take a while - probably roughly 1 book per year. The first book (Khorne) wouldn't likely come out until 2009 or 2010. The last book (Tzeentch) probably wouldn't come out until the very end of 5th Edition in 2012 or 2013.

2012 or 2013?

4 or 5 years from now?

At 1 book a year?

OK, the "givens" are Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

I guess we're saying that the Black Legion book is already out? (I know some would disagree, but...)

(And really, I don't think GW can do "enough" to justify NOT just putting them into one big book? But that's beside the point for now...)

I guess you could then lump all the actually cool Traitor Legions into one big book (Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords)...

So, 5 Legion Books in a span of 5 years, on top of all the other Armies that 'need' books?

No, I don't think so!

And really, if all 3 Inquisition Orders are going to be in one Codex (and no, I'm not holding my breath), do you really think GW is going to dedicate an individual Codex for each Traitor Legion?

To be fair, I think JJ or whomever said that GW "might" or "was thinking of" doing this... Probably just to try and calm down a fanbase that was rather hacked off by the latest Chaos Marine Codex, which tried to be all things to many, and instead came up as not that much to most...

Alpharius wrote:

To be fair, I think JJ or whomever said that GW "might" or "was thinking of" doing this... Probably just to try and calm down a fanbase that was rather hacked off by the latest Chaos Marine Codex, which tried to be all things to many, and instead came up as not that much to most...

While also redressing the fact that the last chaos codex was so darned broken.

KiMonarrez wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

To be fair, I think JJ or whomever said that GW "might" or "was thinking of" doing this... Probably just to try and calm down a fanbase that was rather hacked off by the latest Chaos Marine Codex, which tried to be all things to many, and instead came up as not that much to most...

While also redressing the fact that the last chaos codex was so darned broken.

Some things were (certain designers favorite armies?) but was it really that bad?

And did GW really have to pull a, er, GW and swing the pendulum that far in the other direction so that there's nary a Traitor Legion force in sight?

Alpharius wrote:
To be fair, I think JJ or whomever said that GW "might" or "was thinking of" doing this... Probably just to try and calm down a fanbase that was rather hacked off by the latest Chaos Marine Codex, which tried to be all things to many, and instead came up as not that much to most...

Now, there was no "might", there was no "thinking of", there was "we are". Why do you find it so wholely unthinkable that GW would put out a book for the legions? They do it for regular Marines, so why not? Maybe they're finally sick of hearing Chaos players whine and complain about not having their own legion books? Maybe, just maybe, GW is trying to look toward the players for once? It's so sad that it's come so far that to think GW is going to do anything nice, or reasonable, that it has to be a blatant lie to the masses.

I could live with 3 chaos codexes... Of course, #3 would have to be big to pack in the fluff and detail required.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines <- Current 'dex. Represents renegade legions.

Codex: Demons <- Gooey details on demons, demonic armies, etc. Contains rules to ally with Codex: CSM in a restricted capacity (new renegades aren't devoted enough to a god to get full access).

Codex: Traitor Legions <- Tells the tale of all the original traitor legions, world eaters, thousand sons, death guard, iron warriors, etc. Rules to ally with the other 2 dexes as needed.

Perhaps 7 might be better from a perspective of book real-estate, but would take forever and a day to get released.

(#1 C: CSM <- Renegades
#2 C: Demons <- Demons
#3 C: Traitor Legions - Undivided
#4 C: Traitor Legions - Khorne
#5 C: Traitor Legions - Slannesh
#6 C: Traitor Legions - Nurgle
#7 C: Traitor Legions - Tzeentch)

Heck, maybe just 4 codexes then:

C:CSM <- Renegade Marines
C: Demons <- Demons
C: Traitor Legions <- Generic Traitor legion rules
C: Named Legions <- Non-Generic Traitor legions (Iron warriors, T-Sons, Alpha Legion, etc)


It would be nice to have codex parity with the goody two-shoe loyalists. But I don't see that happening anytime soon myself (C: SM, C: BA, C: DA, C: BT, C: SW), so I'd settle for 3 Codexes... and maybe a chapter approved (oh wait, they don't do these anymore) with rules for snatching guard units for renegade guard.

uh... what does chaos has to do with this?
I know the dark eldar are chaos too but... .... WTF???

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think that it's true, but it'll take a while - probably roughly 1 book per year. The first book (Khorne) wouldn't likely come out until 2009 or 2010. The last book (Tzeentch) probably wouldn't come out until the very end of 5th Edition in 2012 or 2013.

2012 or 2013? 4 or 5 years from now? At 1 book a year?

OK, the "givens" are Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

I guess we're saying that the Black Legion book is already out? (I know some would disagree, but...)

(And really, I don't think GW can do "enough" to justify NOT just putting them into one big book? But that's beside the point for now...)

I guess you could then lump all the actually cool Traitor Legions into one big book (Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords)...

So, 5 Legion Books in a span of 5 years, on top of all the other Armies that 'need' books?

No, I don't think so!

And really, if all 3 Inquisition Orders are going to be in one Codex (and no, I'm not holding my breath), do you really think GW is going to dedicate an individual Codex for each Traitor Legion?

To be fair, I think JJ or whomever said that GW "might" or "was thinking of" doing this... Probably just to try and calm down a fanbase that was rather hacked off by the latest Chaos Marine Codex, which tried to be all things to many, and instead came up as not that much to most...

Yes, Yes, Yes. That's what I said.

The full set of Chaos Codices should be:
- CSM Undivided / "Black Legion"
- Daemons
- Traitors & Mutants "LatD"
- Khorne CSM & Daemons "World Eaters"
- Slannesh CSM & Daemons "Emperors Children"
- Nurgle CSM & Daemons "Death Guard"
- Khorne CSM & Daemons "Thousand Sons"

Of course, the other Traitor Legions (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords) would get NOTHING until the next CSM Codex. At that point, they should get a Special Character with a Special Rule like the loser Loyalists (White Scars, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Salamanders).

As for the other armies that "need" books, you only have a handful: Space Woofs, Blood Angels, Necrons, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Inquisition. Combined with a Event or Scenario book, that's a total of 2 or 3 40k books per year - very doable over the next 5 years.

You're welcome to think that GW won't do Legions, but that's your opinion. Jervis said they would, and there's no reason to doubt him. Just remember that he never promised to do *every* Legion, nor did he give a schedule for when they would be released. So if you consider what makes sense (each Ruinous Power, 1 per year), then the whole thing is quite sensible and practical.

TragicNut wrote:I could live with 3 chaos codexes... Of course, #3 would have to be big to pack in the fluff and detail required.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines <- Current 'dex. Represents renegade legions.

Codex: Demons <- Gooey details on demons, demonic armies, etc. Contains rules to ally with Codex: CSM in a restricted capacity (new renegades aren't devoted enough to a god to get full access).

Codex: Traitor Legions <- Tells the tale of all the original traitor legions, world eaters, thousand sons, death guard, iron warriors, etc. Rules to ally with the other 2 dexes as needed.

Perhaps 7 might be better from a perspective of book real-estate, but would take forever and a day to get released.

(#1 C: CSM <- Renegades
#2 C: Demons <- Demons
#3 C: Traitor Legions - Undivided
#4 C: Traitor Legions - Khorne
#5 C: Traitor Legions - Slannesh
#6 C: Traitor Legions - Nurgle
#7 C: Traitor Legions - Tzeentch)

Heck, maybe just 4 codexes then:

C:CSM <- Renegade Marines
C: Demons <- Demons
C: Traitor Legions <- Generic Traitor legion rules
C: Named Legions <- Non-Generic Traitor legions (Iron warriors, T-Sons, Alpha Legion, etc)

It would be nice to have codex parity with the goody two-shoe loyalists. But I don't see that happening anytime soon myself (C: SM, C: BA, C: DA, C: BT, C: SW), so I'd settle for 3 Codexes... and maybe a chapter approved (oh wait, they don't do these anymore) with rules for snatching guard units for renegade guard.

Based on what happened to the old CSM book, Craftworlds, EOT, and Armageddon, I don't think GW will be doing any more multi-list books. When you say "Codex: CSM" it will have a very specific meaning (generic CSM-based list with generic Daemons & no Traitors). If you say "Codex: World Eaters", it will have similarly narrow meaning (all-Khorne, all the time). Much simpler for GW to develop, and much clearer for your opponent to understand.

So the likely situation is 7 books: CSM, Daemons, & Traitors first to define the basic rules and options for the various units, then Khorne, Slannesh, Nurgle, & Tzeentch to mix-and-match as appropriate.

FishMonk wrote:uh... what does chaos has to do with this?
I know the dark eldar are chaos too but... .... WTF???

It's discussion of release scheduling and resources, what GW is likely to work on, and when (if ever) Dark Eldar might fit into a release schedule. Chaos matters, because GW said they would do Legions (and there are plenty), so if they do them, it affects how Dark Eldar fit into the overall schedule.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

You're welcome to think that GW won't do Legions, but that's your opinion. Jervis said they would, and there's no reason to doubt him. Just remember that he never promised to do *every* Legion, nor did he give a schedule for when they would be released. So if you consider what makes sense (each Ruinous Power, 1 per year), then the whole thing is quite sensible and practical.

If *every* Traitor Legion isn't represented (remember, they all used to be!), don't you think JJ was being a bit disingenuous then when he said that GW would be (maybe) doing the "Legions"?

And yes, it is obvious where my allegiance lies, as well as a touch of bitterness over all of my Cultists who are now apparently only good at summoning Dust Bunnies from the Warp...

Burna Stompa wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
To be fair, I think JJ or whomever said that GW "might" or "was thinking of" doing this... Probably just to try and calm down a fanbase that was rather hacked off by the latest Chaos Marine Codex, which tried to be all things to many, and instead came up as not that much to most...

Now, there was no "might", there was no "thinking of", there was "we are". Why do you find it so wholely unthinkable that GW would put out a book for the legions? They do it for regular Marines, so why not? Maybe they're finally sick of hearing Chaos players whine and complain about not having their own legion books? Maybe, just maybe, GW is trying to look toward the players for once? It's so sad that it's come so far that to think GW is going to do anything nice, or reasonable, that it has to be a blatant lie to the masses.

Would this be the same "masses" that scream blood murder over the proliferation of MEQ armies with not enough Xenos love?

Do you really see GW putting out THAT many books that are Marine-centric?

Really?

Why not? They've had half a dozen marine books out all this time. The more the merrier! And all you marine players will have more flavors to choose from!

I've seen a lot of Jervis quotes and none of them ever indicated that legion codices were on the way. They have all been sort of "we'd like to do legion codices" or "we are definitely doing something with the legions". Not one has ever come out and said point-blank "the legions are getting codices". Not one. If anyone has a quote to that effect I'd sure love to see it. Until then my guess is that the "Tzeentch Warcoven datatsheet" is the closest thing to "legion rules" we're gonna get.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The full set of Chaos Codices should be:
- CSM Undivided / "Black Legion"
- Daemons
- Traitors & Mutants "LatD"
- Khorne CSM & Daemons "World Eaters"
- Slannesh CSM & Daemons "Emperors Children"
- Nurgle CSM & Daemons "Death Guard"
- Khorne CSM & Daemons "Thousand Sons"

Gotta love them Chaos Gods... Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Khorne.

Wait a minute...

MinMax wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The full set of Chaos Codices should be:
- CSM Undivided / "Black Legion"
- Daemons
- Traitors & Mutants "LatD"
- Khorne CSM & Daemons "World Eaters"
- Slannesh CSM & Daemons "Emperors Children"
- Nurgle CSM & Daemons "Death Guard"
- Khorne CSM & Daemons "Thousand Sons"

Gotta love them Chaos Gods... Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Khorne.

Wait a minute...

Oohh... good catch.

I think it's a Freudian slip reflecting GW's success at subliminally conditioning me to not expect Tzeentch to ever get a book.

It would be amusing (and not so surprising) if GW decided 3/4 of the way through the Powers to say "Screw Tzeentch. Let's bring back Malal instead!"

Stormtrooper X wrote:When I first saw this picture my nipples got all hard and I was like "Oh snap! Dark Eldar is comin!?"... then I saw the cheesy lobster claw things and realized it was a slowed demon.

I think I just died of laughter and came back just like Grimaldus.

Alpharius wrote:
If *every* Traitor Legion isn't represented (remember, they all used to be!), don't you think JJ was being a bit disingenuous then when he said that GW would be (maybe) doing the "Legions"?

Not in the least. I don't recall JJ saying GW would be doing *every* Legion. I can't see GW doing the secondary Chaos Legions if they're not doing secondary Loyalist Chapters. Do you have a specific quote from Jervis where he promised to do *every* Traitor Legion?

IMO, if GW covers the big 4, I think that's plenty enough. The rest can be adequately covered by the basic CSM book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Do you have a specific quote from Jervis where he promised to do *every* Traitor Legion?

Do you have a specific quote from Jervis where he promised to do *any* Traitor Legions? I'm serious.

IMO, if GW covers the big 4, I think that's plenty enough. The rest can be adequately covered by the basic CSM book.

Some will say the big 4 are adequately covered by the basic CSM book. I mean, there they all are - right in the Troops section!

From Warseer: "I heard the Dark Eldar will get a new codex this year after Space Marines. It is already in the testing phase and rewrite. It is not going away. Not many new models. Heard this from an English "UK" guy visiting to promote the game in Houston area for a possible Games Day venture in the Houston area. The guy works for the GW promotions department. He came over to our RTT to see what is going on in Houston and get more independent retailers invovled. Aslo look for the Space Wolves to go the way of Blood Angels. I hope this guy was not pulling our leg for fun and laughs." - Posted by rcm2216. I know the groans of Warseer are coming, but, if you want a rumor that's going to be tracked down, that's where to get them. I also looked for the quote from Jervis, but without arcane powers and a bit of technomancy it looks like it's rather lost to age.

I think that we'll eventually remember/find that the "Jervis Quote" that "promised" Legion books is something filled with weasel words, vague allusions and a smoke machine.

In other words, don't hold your breath!

And really, if they just do the "Big" 4, that really won't cut it for many.

And really, what's the rate that GW has fulfilled their "promises" in the past? 50%, maybe 65%? I mean, I think doing a statistical analysis of this would not only be a difficult, but dumb exercise, but seriously, do people really believe everything they hear from a GW rep?

I certainly do. I cling to every word they say like a newborn would cling to a 44DD. So what happens when their words of truth do not come to fruitation? I flagellate myself for I know that it is my fault for not purchasing enough Space Marines to warrant the release of a LaTD codex. My body is covered in scars. Scars of love!

Considering this guy was supposedly from a part of GW that looks to organize Games Day in different parts of the US, maybe so. Seems to me this guy comes from a little further up than your typical rumor source at least.

@Stormtrooper: If you were clinging to that 44DD like I would instead of like a newborn, maybe things would come to fruition, instead of falling hopelessly into the abyss!

adamsouza wrote:I'd buy Demiurg (squats) before I buy revamped Dark Eldar.

Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves, plain and simple. They exist solely to parity their fantasy counterpart.

Thier tech isn't as good as Eldar.
Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids.
Thier not as shooty as tau/marines/edlar/etc..
Thier fiction is weak
Thier models are some of the worst in 40K
They barely make any money for GW
They could disapear tommorow and not really impact the fictional universe of 40K

They are a so so army at best, that appeals to elf lovers and S&M freaks.

They got an updated codex, and that is probably how they will remain untill they fall into obscurity.

ok let me stop the most obvious misinformation campaign i have seen. Sir either you are being sarcastic or you have no idea what you are speaking of.

their tech isnt as good as the eldar? how do you figure that? Their tech is about equal but they are faster than the eldar.

Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids? uh no they are better. they hit better they have a better armor save in close combat if you take a wytch cult not a regular DE army.

this next one is the laughable one i have seen to date

they are not as shooty as tau/ marines/ etc.

No they are equal or better, their weapons hit on 3's. Tau dont shoot like that at all, this goes to show you have no idea of what you are speaking of. Their lance weapons are equal to the eldar in every respect and they hit on the same numbers as marines.. would you care to explain your comment and its obviously glaringly misinformation?

their fiction is weak. Care to back that up with some proof or are you just voicing your opinion?

their models are some of the worst in 40k. again another opinion with no way to actually back that up.

they dont make any money for gw. Well ok show me another army that is direct mail order only and ill show you another army with lagging sales as well. this is the lamest thing i have ever heard. DE are an on the shelf item across the ocean in the Uk and overseas. only here in the US are they mail order only which explains the non existant sales

they could disappear from the universe and no one would blah blah blah
Is this another opinion of yours or are you speaking from some font of knowledge that you and you alone have access to ?

you may have few if any players playing DE in your area, but here there are about 8-10 playing that army and they do very well. i guess if you have never played them or played against them you have no real experience to make educated comments on them and thats the way things seem to go everywhere

Death By Monkeys wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:My point isn't that they aren't playable. My point is that they aren't distinctively playable. They aren't as special as they should be, and that is a problem that can only be fixed by reconcepting the army.

I think that's a very valid point. They can have very competitive armies, but there's nothing about that play style that's terribly exciting or interesting.

I disagree. No one else can do skimmer assault like a Wych cult can anymore. KOS fast vehicle assault isn't the same as that at all, as the basic Ork toughness reduces the desperate need to strike first every round.

And the DE version of SAFH may have weapons similar to bolter/las spam in profile, but the troops firing them are both more fragile and more numerous.

And no one else has portal assault after the decline of USF.

Those are plenty of different modes of play IMO. They _hit_ like KOS or Marine SAFH in some cases, but they can't take the same sort of punishment in return. That lends itself to a very different style of play.

And Savnock, I'm glad that Abby schooled you on the double-Keith references...that really was a bit much for two threads.

Damnit, I think Kieth Richards belongs in every discussion of DE. He's the father of all haemonculi. Urien Rakarth is nothing but an overblown roadie compared to Keith. I mean, the man has publicly admitted to snorting some of his cremated father's ashes mixed with cocaine. Case closed.

I hereby swear that if haemonculi remain in the new DE codex, I will convert (or commission, beg, borrow or steal) a Keith Richards-in-space miniature. Then you will all PAY.

I'm sorry I used my Keith-quota on that CSM thread. It won't happen again- I will conserve and lovingly dole out that precious resource from here on out.

Burna Stompa wrote:Considering this guy was supposedly from a part of GW that looks to organize Games Day in different parts of the US, maybe so. Seems to me this guy comes from a little further up than your typical rumor source at least.

Hi guys

This rumor did not come from anyone involved in organizing US Games Days (the Community Development Team). None of us are English and none of us have, unfortunately, been to Houston. All too often statements are taken out of context and some people only hear what they want to hear. "rcm2216" from Warseer seems to have done just that.

Unless you read information about new products in White Dwarf or see it on games-workshop.com then they should not be considered promises made by GW (as alluded to earlier in the thread), but merely speculation by people (employee and customers alike) who are very passionate about this great hobby. Please remember context is VERY important for proper communication.

Cheers
Dave Taylor
GW US Community Development Manager

Thanks Dave this thread was going into the redonkeyless stage. Opinions and hearsay still equal nothing. The one positive based on the numerous past posts and this post is thier seems to be quite a interest in DE either for or against.

Firstly, hooray for DaveTaylor, my hobbying God.

So, I’m actually writing this in Word (gonna cut and paste)as I read this 5 page thread for the first time, so I apologize in advance for the innevitable Great Wall of Text (FEAR ME Mongowians, twy to tear down dis waw).

*EDIT: decided to break it up into 3 posts instead of 1 massive wall*

First point, though not in any order: The reason dark eldar models don’t move are the absolute atrocity of the line. I have worked for GW, my best friend is highish up in US Retail, and every comment we ever heard was how horrible the models were.

Second Point – Slaanesh: A lot of this is my opinion, though my suppositions are (in my mind at least) strongly supported by the limited fluff. I can’t find ANY referrence in ANY printed material about DE and Slaanesh being homies. There are, however, many many MANY hints otherwise....

Hint 1: Commaragh exists in the webway. In almost every piece of webway fluff I’ve ever read, the webway has an impenetrable anti-warp wall (so to speak) around it, kinda like a never-failing Gellar Field (whish is what protects Imperial Starships from the warp, for folks who didn’t know). If you were buddy-buddy with the Ol’ Prince of Pen!s, why would you make your house in the one place s/he can’t go?

Hint 2: The DE and their soul traffic. This one may not be as strong, but why consume souls? Perhaps to make your own stronger? I see this soul traffic as being not only a wicked way to get your sadistic jollies (I mean, a Haemonculus can torture someone indefinitely, but you can only eat a soul once…), but more importantly the DE version of the infinity circuit. Sure, the DE don’t go to soul prison as a guaranteed safe spot in eternity, but consuming souls hopefully giving your own soul the strength to escape Slaanesh? I like it…

Hint 3: Not that there’s much DE fluff to look through, but… In every example of Slaaneshii decadence (see the Fulgrim novel, for example), EVERY pleasure and vice and perversion is experemented in. The DE seem to stick only to sadism – and who doesn’t like inflicting just a teeny bit of hurt on someone they don’t like (and the DE don’t like anyone)? What is absent is the wanton lust, and more importantly, the masochism. The DE have never had an ounce of masochism in any of their fluff.

Third point – The Rules: Most people seem to be saying/agreeing with “the book doesn’t need an overhaul, but the models do.” I agree with the second point, but not the first. I’m going to go through the entire list briefly, with a quick and dirty analysis:

Theme: Piratical Raiders. Fast moving, agile, hit and run. This says to me a couple of things. Everyone in the army needs to move fast or get left behind. You think your archon is gonna send Tom Hanks and Vin Diessel to rescue you from the evil advancing Naz… umm, IG? NO. Maybe Oppum, but that’s mostly just to laugh at him as he gets killed (and GOD I hope the oppum actor-guy in Lost gets what’s been coming to him since Saving Privcate Ryan, and I hope his death hurts, A LOT!!!). This being said, fast moving, lightly armoured, with limited heavy weaponry.

HQ: I think the concept of DE commanders being “independent character” is slowed. There is NO WAY an archon would go into battle without his most trusted bodyguards, it would be too easy for the new archon to have a friendly fire incident. That being said, for game play purposes, to stay on par with other characters, they should maintain the IC rule but have no choice about the bodyguard.

Archon/Dracon – New models please. IMO, should HAVE to take a bodyguard. Bodyguard should be DE warriors or incubi, BUT incubi should not have a 3+ save. It just doesn’t fit IMO. A 4+ maybe, but not a 3+

Haemonculus – Ditto. Should HAVE to take grotesque bodyguard.

Wych Lord: See comments in Wyches.

Elites:
Grotesques – only available as a haemonculus bodyguard. Don’t need the stupid rule anymore, and the feel no pain rule can be GASP! feel no pain…

Mandrakes – Love the concept, but the application is poor, especially when fielding multiple units. Lictor deep strike rules anyone? Plus, with the new codex system (ie no armoury), its now safe to give them vet. Serg. equivalents as you wont be able to sneak across the table unmolested for 3 turns and drop a webway portal on the turn you show up.

Wyches – something about them has always bothered me, and that’s the random combat drug system. That being said, GW reinstated the randomness for chaos possessed, so I guess it’s here to stay. That being said… would it be possible to, say, roll once for the entire army? With maybe a wych lord giving you 2 rolls, and choosing the result? So I don’t have to remember the different drugs for my 8 different wych variant squads…?

Warp Beasts – LOVE the concept, but just need to be squad upgrades for wyches and mandrakes, say 1 per 5 models in the unit…

Troops:
Warriors – so many issues here for me:
1) The dark lance. LAME. My fast moving, piratical raiders are going to set up 50% of the raiding force as a firebase? Doubtful. The dark lance needs to move to an assault weapon, maybe at 24”, but more preferrably for me 18”. It should be impossible to kill stuff with a DE infantry model on the first turn from your own deployment zone. They should be FORCED to move.
B) Models need to cost more. 1-2 points each, and come with scouts. If you have the right number, you can upgrade to a transport at no cost, or a lesser cost than other squads.

The Raider – Higher transport capacity please. 12 or 15 maybe… I was gonna say “goodbye interesting upgrades” after the new chaos book, but the new ork book tells me they’re ok… Vehicle weapons only able to fire if vehicle has embarked models, with a “gunner” vehicle upgrade that allows you to shoot after disembarking. I hate the “Raider Lance Battery” tactic after disembarking.

Fast Attack:
Jetbikes/Hellions – All the Wych comments apply. Both should get hit and run.

Heavy Support:
Scourges – see comment on dark lances in the Warriors entry. Secondly, jump pack troops in HS? Seems like a FA entry to me… though that would leave HS options limited…

Ravager – Small transport capacity, maybe 6 models. In my mind the only thing that comes on a dark eldar vehicle is the pilot, see raider entry. This may or may not work, but I like the concept. Disintegrator shorter range, but maybe higher str.

Talos – BEST concept in the army, hands down. Lunatic rampaging torture device on the battlefield? YES, PLEASE!! Need some serious fixing, though. I would:
Monstrous creature – better than the old, complicated method of vehicle whacking.
Weapons – Talos Sting – gone. Upgrade to weapons/etc like the carnifex/wraithlord/etc.
Movement rules like a spawn – attack closest enemy
Obciously need a cool-sounding name for this ability – Towing. Drag the talos along behind a raider/ravager. Does not move on its own until it is activated (ie Disembarks). If raider is destroyed before disembarking, take a wound with no save, 2 wounds if moved over 12". I love the idea of swinging by an enemy and “dropping off” this little present and letting it go berserk.

MISSING: Large Vehicle. Battlewagon/land raider size skimmer. Only moves 12”, but counts as a fast vehicle in all other ways. Ordnance-style anti-infantry weapon upgrade. Large transport capacity, like the battlewagon (20, or 12 with ordnance). Medium Armour. We stole Master of the Universe’s flying skateboards, we can steal Skeletor’s skimming command ship, too.

MISSING: Harlequins. INCLUDING the solitaire, goddamnit. Well, no, no solitaire, if the eldar don’t get one, we don’t either.

Sigh. So much powergaming, I don't even know where to start.

DeathGod wrote:Third point – The Rules: Most people seem to be saying/agreeing with “the book doesn’t need an overhaul, but the models do.” I agree with the second point, but not the first. I’m going to go through the entire list briefly, with a quick and dirty analysis:

I don't mind any model but the warp beasts and the wyches. The book itself is one of the most powerful in the game, has been for a long time. It was (and still is) the only Codex Gav and Jervis wrote that isn't pure crap (in 40K).

DeathGod wrote:Theme: Piratical Raiders. Fast moving, agile, hit and run. This says to me a couple of things. Everyone in the army needs to move fast or get left behind. You think your archon is gonna send Tom Hanks and Vin Diessel to rescue you from the evil advancing Naz… umm, IG? NO. Maybe Oppum, but that’s mostly just to laugh at him as he gets killed (and GOD I hope the oppum actor-guy in Lost gets what’s been coming to him since Saving Privcate Ryan, and I hope his death hurts, A LOT!!!). This being said, fast moving, lightly armoured, with limited heavy weaponry.

So you mean, like 90% of the list is now? Oh, right, you wrote a thesis below this statement. Interesting. Time to debunk.

DeathGod wrote:HQ: I think the concept of DE commanders being “independent character” is slowed. There is NO WAY an archon would go into battle without his most trusted bodyguards, it would be too easy for the new archon to have a friendly fire incident. That being said, for game play purposes, to stay on par with other characters, they should maintain the IC rule but have no choice about the bodyguard.

So despite the obvious GW NERF BAT being swung at every Codex and removing every single bodyguard unit from the game, you want it to still exist. Well, it won't. So this points moot.

DeathGod wrote:Archon/Dracon – New models please. IMO, should HAVE to take a bodyguard. Bodyguard should be DE warriors or incubi, BUT incubi should not have a 3+ save. It just doesn’t fit IMO. A 4+ maybe, but not a 3+

More moot on having to take bodyguards. Incubi should get fleet?! HOLY CRAP SIGN ME UP FOR THAT BULL! They only own everyone in CC as they are. Now guaranteed assaults? Holy hell, what's next, combat drugs?

DeathGod wrote:Haemonculus – Ditto. Should HAVE to take grotesque bodyguard.

Sorry, but you can't have haemonculus as HQ anymore. GW's figured out 'support' characters need to be elites with servitors (cough techmarines cough) or the models do not sell because mr killy other HQ type is better.

Should NOT have to take a bodyguard, just like techmarines don't have to. Having it as an option would be fine.

DeathGod wrote:Grotesques – only available as a haemonculus bodyguard. Don’t need the stupid rule anymore, and the feel no pain rule can be GASP! feel no pain…

Groovy. Something that makes sense AND fits with the GW NERF BAT swingage.

DeathGod wrote:Mandrakes – Love the concept, but the application is poor, especially when fielding multiple units. Lictor deep strike rules anyone? Plus, with the new codex system (ie no armoury), its now safe to give them vet. Serg. equivalents as you wont be able to sneak across the table unmolested for 3 turns and drop a webway portal on the turn you show up.

Neat. Of course you can't do this now, and you wouldn't be able to do this in the new Codex.

No thanks on the lictor deep strike rules on a multiple model unit. Think about it, you scatter poorly and half the units dead. Lictors are easy to place. 10 models aren't.

DeathGod wrote:Wyches – something about them has always bothered me, and that’s the random combat drug system. That being said, GW reinstated the randomness for chaos possessed, so I guess it’s here to stay. That being said… would it be possible to, say, roll once for the entire army? With maybe a wych lord giving you 2 rolls, and choosing the result? So I don’t have to remember the different drugs for my 8 different wych variant squads…?

They already sold enough possessed to make their money back. Wyches, well, they'll need new models (and not resculpts of the existing sh*t) if they intend to sell Wych Cults...and they'll need a better combat drug system to get people to buy into it. So while it isn't good for the army list (it's a limitation that prevents auto-wins currently) it would be good for sales.

DeathGod wrote:Warp Beasts – LOVE the concept, but just need to be squad upgrades for wyches and mandrakes, say 1 per 5 models in the unit…

So kroot hounds. How about we let each army be unique instead of copy after copy of the same tired theme?

DeathGod wrote:Warriors – so many issues here for me:
1) The dark lance. LAME. My fast moving, piratical raiders are going to set up 50% of the raiding force as a firebase? Doubtful. The dark lance needs to move to an assault weapon, maybe at 24”, but more preferrably for me 18”. It should be impossible to kill stuff with a DE infantry model on the first turn from your own deployment zone. They should be FORCED to move.
B) Models need to cost more. 1-2 points each, and come with scouts. If you have the right number, you can upgrade to a transport at no cost, or a lesser cost than other squads.

It is an assault weapon. Learn how to play a DE army. You put DL on your vehicles. Most people take splinter cannons and blasters on raider squads, and DL on enough vehicles to have a credible anti-vehicle threat.

DE should cost more? Are you kidding? That's the only redeeming point of the army now.

DE vehicles should cost more? They're awesome for what they can do now. Again, learn to play dark eldar then speak of them.

DeathGod wrote:The Raider – Higher transport capacity please. 12 or 15 maybe… I was gonna say “goodbye interesting upgrades” after the new chaos book, but the new ork book tells me they’re ok… Vehicle weapons only able to fire if vehicle has embarked models, with a “gunner” vehicle upgrade that allows you to shoot after disembarking. I hate the “Raider Lance Battery” tactic after disembarking.

Ah so that's why you want the army nerfed, because it kicks trash? Makes sense.

I wonder, do you see the gunners on the other armies vehicles? I know I do, and they manage to be viable armies with gunners given for free. Paying for a gunner...that's highly amusing.

Higher capacity would be nice.

DeathGod wrote:Jetbikes/Hellions – All the Wych comments apply. Both should get hit and run.

Or Jetbikes should get Eldar jetbike movement, splinter cannons options, and 2 weapon bonuses for CC...and otherwise be like every other bike out there.

The Hellions, well, you missed a spot. They need assault 2 weapons. Rapid fire weapons on move or fire jump troops is the suck.

DeathGod wrote:Scourges – see comment on dark lances in the Warriors entry. Secondly, jump pack troops in HS? Seems like a FA entry to me… though that would leave HS options limited…

Most people don't run scourges anymore. They're great looking, but even with splinter cannons the ravager is cheaper.

DeathGod wrote:Ravager – Small transport capacity, maybe 6 models. In my mind the only thing that comes on a dark eldar vehicle is the pilot, see raider entry. This may or may not work, but I like the concept. Disintegrator shorter range, but maybe higher str.

So, it should be a razorback? With a S8 plasma cannon? Nurgle will love to hear the news!

What's going to ride in it, in this mythical army of yours that has everyone already in a transport?

DeathGod wrote:Talos – BEST concept in the army, hands down. Lunatic rampaging torture device on the battlefield? YES, PLEASE!! Need some serious fixing, though. I would:
Monstrous creature – better than the old, complicated method of vehicle whacking.
Weapons – Talos Sting – gone. Upgrade to weapons/etc like the carnifex/wraithlord/etc.
Movement rules like a spawn – attack closest enemy
Obciously need a cool-sounding name for this ability – Towing. Drag the talos along behind a raider/ravager. Does not move on its own until it is activated (ie Disembarks). If raider is destroyed before disembarking, take a wound with no save, 2 wounds if moved over 12". I love the idea of swinging by an enemy and “dropping off” this little present and letting it go berserk.

Oh boy. Towing. Towing.

It's SLOW, shouldn't it be gone?

DE are a glass hammer army. Now you want to take that away and give them 3 wraithlords? Pure genius!

DeathGod wrote:MISSING: Large Vehicle. Battlewagon/land raider size skimmer. Only moves 12”, but counts as a fast vehicle in all other ways. Ordnance-style anti-infantry weapon upgrade. Large transport capacity, like the battlewagon (20, or 12 with ordnance). Medium Armour. We stole Master of the Universe’s flying skateboards, we can steal Skeletor’s skimming command ship, too.

So it should be a super raider. You know battlewagons aren't actually super trukks, right? lol

I can only hope something like this crap never comes to pass.

DeathGod wrote:MISSING: Harlequins. INCLUDING the solitaire, goddamnit. Well, no, no solitaire, if the eldar don’t get one, we don’t either.

Beh. I'm ambivalent either way, but I doubt this will happen. Why bring Wyches or Incubi when you can bring Harlies? Totally takes the point of the DE armies CC specialists and throws them out the door.

ok let me stop the most obvious misinformation campaign i have seen

Before you pat yourself on the back too hard, all you did was just post the opposite of everything I said without any proof otherwise.

Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

Third, you seem to be the only person who strongly objected to my assertions. Are you playing a with a different Dark Eldar Codex than the rest of us ?

Fourth, notice that I picked at your argument without once insulting you, or insinuating mental imparement on your part.

Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?

Seventh, the models are fugly. I feel confident of that fact after reading this thread, where the people who actually like dark eldar have stated so repeatedly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholdor, so you can feel free to disagree, but don't try to make it out like I'm the only person who thinks it.

Sigh. So much powergaming, I don't even know where to start.

Well, for starters, that was all off the top of my head, in about 5 minutes. I apologize if I didn't proofread for the power gamer. My comments were conceptual in basis, not rules-ready, points-tested, battle-tested, played-to-be-broken-and-then-fixed etc. that goes into writing a real codex.

Just some thoughts on how the army should be themed as opposed to how it is now, which is a bunch of mismatched blah. Sure they are playable now. Sure they are winnable now. But they don't need a book in the current mode... all they need are 3 unit entries in a White Dwarf, cause I never see an army fielding anything but raider squads, archons with incubi and wyches.

What I'd like to see is a *gasp* well-rounded book with all the squad options viable. I don't think that's too much to ask for, and my post were just off-the-cuff 5 minutes of how I envision a dark eldar army working, then translating that to the table top.

I don't run the latter two.

I think all the squad options are viable, I've used them all (and parked them all).

You can only do so much with a army without redoing their current model range entirely.

Almost everything is what it is and has a purpose.

Compare this to say the Borcrons.

DeathGod wrote:My comments were conceptual in basis, not rules-ready, points-tested, battle-tested, played-to-be-broken-and-then-fixed etc. that goes into writing a real codex.

Oh, if ONLY that were the case now.

adamsouza wrote: Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

Actually I can count on one hand the number of competent dark eldar players I know. 15 years and I can think of 4 that I played and they knew what they were doing. I've seen tons of DE armies run by idiots, noobs, criminals, and gimps. Doesn't have anything to do with the army being powerful, it has everything to do with the army being very difficult to run properly. i.e. there is no 'easy win' button for munchkins. Only for vets. Who get tired of kicking everyones ass and getting 'cheese' tossed their way.

Dark Eldar do better at the GT's than the marines usually do, so they can't be 'crap' because marines already have that title.

adamsouza wrote:Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Which is the effect of having most of their models not be 'marines and the things that kill them'. Warriors, Incubi, Wyches, Raiders. CHECK! Everything else, CRAP. Most of those models went to trade sales right away, fyi. A GW decision made when the whole range was still selling.
Now, cookie cutter armies float around and there's no reason to stock it--just get the locally traded DE whore army 15 other guys have had, sucked with, and traded away. I think the local ones in my area are both going for under 150$. So what really killed the DE line? Lack of choices that aren't the easy 'kill marine' button.

Gee, does it sound like Necrons? Let me count the ways...Immortals, Warriors, Destroyers, Monolith. Woot what do I win, Johnny?

adamsouza wrote:Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

They are indeed quite powerful, but they're a finesse army. Finesse armies never catch on with the cheesehounds bigtime because such players rarely have the patience to lose a lot during their early learning curve. When they do have that patience, they become very, very good players. It's hard to stop a good Wych player. I've only ever faced one such skilled player, but I never beat him.
See my comments and Stelek's comments for details on how DE can be extremely dangerous. It's limiting their own vulnerability that is difficult, and that makes them hard to play well (but nasty when they are).

Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Again, this is due to crappy models, not crappy rules. They're a huge mistake, and no one likes to play with ugly models. Even a good portion of powergamers shy away from crappy models.

Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?

Now that's an interesting point. Basically, the current codex pulls them too far out of line from the RT pirates. I'd like to see them being a bit less inherently evil, a bit more cynical and scared (of Slaanesh, and their inevitable soul-consumption). If you see DE as part of the Eldar pirates (which even under the current fluff is correct), they do indeed have an impact upon the 40K univers. They can strike anywhere, anytime. They are a constant shadowy threat, not a juggernaut like Orks or 'Nids or Abbaddon's 114th Black Crusadeathon. Like the regular Eldar, they are few in number, but their impact is widespread. Thus they diffusely affect everything.

Seventh, the models are fugly. I feel confident of that fact after reading this thread, where the people who actually like dark eldar have stated so repeatedly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholdor, so you can feel free to disagree, but don't try to make it out like I'm the only person who thinks it.

Fortunately, this can be fixed. The rules are okay but need work like any older codex. The models need a serious update, but will be very profitable if done well (as people will be replacing whole armies, as well as buying new ones). I think this is an argument _for_ a DE rerelease, not against.

Stelek wrote:
Which is the effect of having most of their models not be 'marines and the things that kill them'. Warriors, Incubi, Wyches, Raiders. CHECK! Everything else, CRAP.

Dude, if you mean "CRAP" as in "crap looking" I think you're being overly generous. The Raiders are okay. The Incubi are contestants in the "dumbest hat in 40K" contest.

if you mean playability, the jetbikes aren't that bad, nor are the Archon/Dracon choices.

I mean playability.

The archon/dracon/dracite are great choices.

Small jetbikes for tank hunting are ok, but for CC they're horrible.

Alpharius wrote:I think that we'll eventually remember/find that the "Jervis Quote" that "promised" Legion books is something filled with weasel words, vague allusions and a smoke machine.

And really, if they just do the "Big" 4, that really won't cut it for many.

OK, I used the magical wayback power (i.e. "Search"), and this is what I got:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207274.page

Basically, it's a secondhand account of some guy talking with Jervis:

*There are plans in place to implement the Chaos Legions in 40k. That means codex's for Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard etc...bear in mind this is pretty long run stuff.

*There's not going to be much in the way of Lost And The Damned as Jervis feels they're covered already and more suited to Apocalypse as it is.

The idea behind the Chaos legions is that he felt that the last book tried to cover every aspect of the Chaos forces, and did it badly. The way he saw Chaos was as this huge amalgamation of different forces serving the Dark Gods, each deserving their own army book.

The current Chaos codex is meant to represent renegade marines, not necessarily the ancient 10,000 year old servants of Chaos. He felt that while splitting up the different aspects of Chaos into their separate sections while at first painful (as shown by the displeasure at the recent codex) will, in the long run, do each component part more justice than a small 20-30 page footnote in an army book.

Chaos legions WILL be getting a full codex. His exact words were "if we're going to do things, we're going to do them right."

You can make what you will of it. I read this as Jervis saying they're going to do the big 4, eventually.

Savnock wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:My point isn't that they aren't playable. My point is that they aren't distinctively playable. They aren't as special as they should be, and that is a problem that can only be fixed by reconcepting the army.

I disagree. No one else can do skimmer assault like a Wych cult can anymore. KOS fast vehicle assault isn't the same as that at all, as the basic Ork toughness reduces the desperate need to strike first every round.

And the DE version of SAFH may have weapons similar to bolter/las spam in profile, but the troops firing them are both more fragile and more numerous.

And no one else has portal assault after the decline of USF.

Those are plenty of different modes of play IMO. They _hit_ like KOS or Marine SAFH in some cases, but they can't take the same sort of punishment in return. That lends itself to a very different style of play.

IMO, you just proved my point. Are DE Skimmer Assault, SAFH, or Portal Assault? They try to be a lot of things, but aren't very special or distinctive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, you just proved my point. Are DE Skimmer Assault, SAFH, or Portal Assault? They try to be a lot of things, but aren't very special or distinctive.

What was your point? Seems like you had no point at all.

DE are skimmer assault--like BA are jump pack assault.
DE are SAFH--like BT are SAFH.
DE are portal assault--like DA are deep strike assault.

WOW! One Codex that's 6 years old does what 3 new ones do, and does it better in ALL respects.

So, either I'm a dumbass for not seeing the 'genius' in making 4's (you know, marines) uber in being able to do only ONE thing partially well and calling it both 'very special' and 'distinctive' OR...you're sounding alot like a GW fanboi with nary a hint just how fast the ship is sinking.

Gurgle. Gurgle.

adamsouza wrote:

ok let me stop the most obvious misinformation campaign i have seen

Before you pat yourself on the back too hard, all you did was just post the opposite of everything I said without any proof otherwise.

Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

Third, you seem to be the only person who strongly objected to my assertions. Are you playing a with a different Dark Eldar Codex than the rest of us ?

Fourth, notice that I picked at your argument without once insulting you, or insinuating mental imparement on your part.

Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?

Seventh, the models are fugly. I feel confident of that fact after reading this thread, where the people who actually like dark eldar have stated so repeatedly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholdor, so you can feel free to disagree, but don't try to make it out like I'm the only person who thinks it.

Before you pat yourself on the back too hard, all you did was just post the opposite of everything I said without any proof otherwise.

Really? as i didnt need to post anything to your deliberate misreprensetations

whats the taus ballistic skill? 3 isnt it? what do they hit on? 4's isnt it ?whats the sm ballistic skill? 4 isnt it? what do they hit on? 3 isnt it ? whats the DE ballistic skill 4 isnt it ? what do they hit on? 3's sint it? hmm thats better then the tau, equal to the sm.. oh wait dont let me forget, whats the ballistic skill of most eldar vehicles? 3 isnt it? what do they hit on ? 4 isnt it? what do DE hit on? 3's across the board.

by those facts they are better than tau better than eldar and oh wait what is that? oh yeah equal to sm's.. hmmm that debunks one of your assertions

i already pointed out that the wytch cult army is the best hand to hand army do i need to break that down for you as well?
ok
wytch's ws skill is what? dang codex is at work ok i think its 5 i may be wrong, their init is 6 any unit that doesnt have a str of 6 or better has their ws cut in half so while wytches now hit on 3's everyone else will hit on 4's 5' s depending. ok wytchs str 3 not great not terrible the fact they get combat drugs can make them str 4 make them go first always re roll misses in close combat give them 12" charge +1 ws not a big deal oh and a succubus armed with a poison blades wounds anything on a 2.. Their save in close combat 4+ invo best of any unit out there save 1000 sons but you compared them to killy nids which i just debunked even if the gene stealers charge and wytches dont have drugs saying go first, they are going at the same time as wytches and they will hit less than wytches, their save of 5 against a 4 we get an invo you dont..

thats 2 facts that debunk your opinion based tirade

the rest of your post was opinion based as is mine ,you dont like the models thats your opinion and one i share but doesnt have anything to do with them being a powerful army

i posted they have weak sales and arent known by alot based off of the fact they are mail order only thats a fact not an opinion
if they were a mainstream army they would have better usage by players but alas they are not

no im playing wioth the same dark eldar codex as everyone else i dont thik you have played with it at all or you would not have made those assertions.
Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?"""

What does this have to do with the price of tea in china? does this affect game play at all ? no not even close, as this appears to be more of an attempt to deflect the fact you made assertions that were incorrect
""""

again i go back to the fact that only a few players know anything at all about them. i do know i have seen more and more of the army showing up at rtt's in just about everywhere

and as this my opinion DE are about as tournament winning as IG it takes a lot of things to go right to win the army thats why
you can play cheseed out nidzillas with little or no skill and win, the same thing for alot of armies you have all your saving throws you get all your neat little gadgets.. rule of thumb for DE you shoot them they die

its that simple

please dont comeback and try to drag this out any further i have given you the straight facts about them and have left out as much opinion as i can. you cannot say the same thing

as we all know what opinions are like ok ? thanks for understanding

Well if you really must know the price of tea in china is about $2.14!

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:UTMgtYUxt0MJ:www.tefl.com/home/col_survey.html%3Fcou_id%3D44+%22cost+of+living%22+china+tea&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=24

well said stelek ty for that info

heheheh

davetaylor wrote:This rumor did not come from anyone involved in organizing US Games Days (the Community Development Team). None of us are English and none of us have, unfortunately, been to Houston.

Well that clears some things up. But it still doesn't explain the origin of this mysterious rumor. Hmm... Englishman... Houston... unless... could it be?



False alarm guys. Obviously someone fell asleep watching the Superstation and dreamt a DE codex rumor.

Too funny but very creative i salute you sir!

Stelek wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, you just proved my point. Are DE Skimmer Assault, SAFH, or Portal Assault? They try to be a lot of things, but aren't very special or distinctive.

What was your point? Seems like you had no point at all.

DE are skimmer assault--like BA are jump pack assault.
DE are SAFH--like BT are SAFH.
DE are portal assault--like DA are deep strike assault.

WOW! One Codex that's 6 years old does what 3 new ones do, and does it better in ALL respects.

So, either I'm a dumbass for not seeing the 'genius' in making 4's (you know, marines) uber in being able to do only ONE thing partially well and calling it both 'very special' and 'distinctive' OR...you're sounding alot like a GW fanboi with nary a hint just how fast the ship is sinking.

Gurgle. Gurgle.

If the essence of your "argument" requires you to call me a "fanboi", it's not much of an argument.

As noted, DE are kind of an unfocused jack-of-all trades army. They don't have compelling Fluff. They don't have even maginally passable models. So the DE add very little to the overall gaming experience in terms of gaming diversity. If someone wants to do any of the things the DE purport to do, there are 3 armies that are better-focused with better models and better Fluff. OTOH, if DE occupied a special, distinctive niche, then suddenly, they add something to the gaming experience.

If you look at what GW did with 40k3 and WFB6, they tried 2 very different approaches to army lists. In 40k, GW expanded options like crazy, and pulled out a lot of the restrictions that were in 2nd Edition, and then piled on a bunch of sublists. In WFB, GW progressively specialized each army list. It appears that GW find the Fantasy approach of having more narrowly-focused army lists with unique benefits and drawbacks works "better", so GW is grafting that onto 40k, hence the massive nerfage and restriction.

But getting back to the whole apologist / fanboi nonsense. Just because I'm OK with change, that doesn't make me a fanboy or apologist. If GW has shown nothing, it's that they're not afraid to shake things up. If you can't deal with that, this isn't the hobby for you.

Warpaint Studio wrote:

adamsouza wrote:
Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

i posted they have weak sales and arent known by alot based off of the fact they are mail order only thats a fact not an opinion
if they were a mainstream army they would have better usage by players but alas they are not

DE were a fully-supported mainstream army back in 3rd Edition. Heck, they were in the starter box! For a game like 40k, you can't have better support and exposure than being in the starter set.

Despite the prime positioning, the DE never caught on, which is why GW ended up reconcepting the shooty part of the DE army as Tau.

Eventually, Tau (and Necrons) sold more stuff than DE, the DE were moved out of the starter, and in 2004, DE were moved to Mail Order / "Classic" status.

But to blame DE sales weakness on their being mail order is unfair, given the history of the army.

Warpaint Studio, you are apparently a Dark Eldar Fanatic. Debating Dark Eldar with you is like debating religion with a priest.

Replies in concise form:
*BS alone doesn't make a superior shooting army.
*WS alone doesn't make a superior melee army.
*Dark Eldar are mail order only becuase of poor sales BEFORE they were mail order only.
*I asserted that DE fiction was weak from a conceptual standpoint , and illustrated my point, it had nothing to do with tea or china.
*You make an awfull lot of assumptions on what I do
*If you don't want to drag this out, feel free to stop posting. I have more posts in this thread alone than you do on Dakka total. I'm not going to stop posting in this thread because you assert that I should.

I don't think the DE are a jack-of-all-trades army in the slightest.

You can do alot with them, but in the end it goes like this:

Skimmers on the table, or out of the webway portal.

Add units to flavor your soup, and bang it's a DE army.

Sounds like the Necrons to me. Only the Necrons are horrifingly boring, and just to briefly touch on the whole 'nerf' issue--they have nothing to nerf.

I don't really think the fantasy armies are being 'focused' so much as they are being 'empowered to not suck when the next codex comes out in six months because we're hemorrhaging customers like AT&T'.

Warpaint Studio wrote:i posted they have weak sales and arent known by alot based off of the fact they are mail order only thats a fact not an opinion
if they were a mainstream army they would have better usage by players but alas they are not

Yeah, if only GW had given them more mainstream exposure then more players would know about them! If only GW had included them in the starter set or something...

Or put them in a video game or something...

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Warpaint Studio wrote:i posted they have weak sales and arent known by alot based off of the fact they are mail order only thats a fact not an opinion
if they were a mainstream army they would have better usage by players but alas they are not

Yeah, if only GW had given them more mainstream exposure then more players would know about them! If only GW had included them in the starter set or something...

Or made great models for them. Just think if they all looked like Garey Morely sculpted a bunch of evil space elves with giant pointy helmets, oversized shoulder pads, misshapen naked elf butts. and all the while flaring their mancrotchs at everyone. Man that would suck.

adamsouza wrote:Warpaint Studio, you are apparently a Dark Eldar Fanatic. Debating Dark Eldar with you is like debating religion with a priest.

Replies in concise form:
*BS alone doesn't make a superior shooting army.
*WS alone doesn't make a superior melee army.
*Dark Eldar are mail order only becuase of poor sales BEFORE they were mail order only.
*I asserted that DE fiction was weak from a conceptual standpoint , and illustrated my point, it had nothing to do with tea or china.
*You make an awfull lot of assumptions on what I do
*If you don't want to drag this out, feel free to stop posting. I have more posts in this thread alone than you do on Dakka total. I'm not going to stop posting in this thread because you assert that I should.

bs doesnt make a superior shooting army?

no but when you make a less than intelligent comment that they dont shoot as well as tau and what not you show everyone you are ill informed and thats enough to invalidate anything you post

ws alone doesnt make them a superior melee army?.. are you kidding me? i have already proved to you they are superior by stats alone against the vaunted nids you claimed were oh so superior too.. again ignorance of an army isnt an exscuse for you to post opinions without any facts which you did

i suggest you stop posting about things you have no grasp of the concepts of sir. i have proved you incorrect by stats on the key things that you claim made the DE weak you then try to shift that focus away from your misinformation and try to assert some superiority over me by having a larger post count? whos over compensating now?

in your case i guess ignorance is bliss
and there is something to the old addage never argue with an idiot youll just get tired from the effort

"It is better to be silent and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and confirm it"

Just keep opening your mouth

Wow you got schooled by me with my little post count and i hurt your feelings huh?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the essence of your "argument" requires you to call me a "fanboi", it's not much of an argument.

Sadly, Stelek's tone gets in the way of his very good points. he has a good argument- don't just respond to the cranky bits like accusations of fanboism.

As noted, DE are kind of an unfocused jack-of-all trades army.

Here's where Stelek's right- they are not a jack-of-all trades. They have three possible good configurations. All of them require focus and finesse, and are not easily repurposed. They are not universalists like Marines. It's okay to have multiple approaches available under one list, if they all require unique planning and finesse to execute.

If you look at what GW did with 40k3 and WFB6, they tried 2 very different approaches to army lists. In 40k, GW expanded options like crazy, and pulled out a lot of the restrictions that were in 2nd Edition, and then piled on a bunch of sublists. In WFB, GW progressively specialized each army list. It appears that GW find the Fantasy approach of having more narrowly-focused army lists with unique benefits and drawbacks works "better", so GW is grafting that onto 40k, hence the massive nerfage and restriction.

But getting back to the whole apologist / fanboi nonsense. Just because I'm OK with change, that doesn't make me a fanboy or apologist. If GW has shown nothing, it's that they're not afraid to shake things up. If you can't deal with that, this isn't the hobby for you.

Actually JohnHwang, you've shown yourself to like things very cut-and-dried, with minimal configurability in lists (less options for vet sarges, less possible approaches from a single armylist, etc.). This may seem like focus to you, but it seems restrictive to those of us who like to shift our approaches from game to game. It's a difference of style. If you want "focus", play Necrons or BT or something. That's fine. Others will play the highly configurable lists. We can all get along...

...Until the Vegas GT that is, where we will all kick the holy crap out of each other and demonstrate who has the ability to back up their theoryhammer.

Warpaint Studio wrote:Wow you got schooled by me with my little post count and i hurt your feelings huh?

Based on the way the thread has gone, it would appear that you are the type who uses the word "schooled" when a Toy Poodle yips at a Doberman.

Warpaint Studio wrote:
bs doesnt make a superior shooting army?

never argue with an idiot youll just get tired from the effort

So are you saying that we shouldn't argue with you because we'll get tired of it?

Anyhooo...

BS isn't the be-all, end-all of superior shooting. For example, if IG Conscripts were made BS5 (hit on 2s), they'd still be crappy shooters because they're armed with flashlights.

Oh, I'm sorry Warpaint. You evidently completely missed the point.

adamsouza wrote:Just keep opening your mouth

Not in a Dark Eldar army, to much mancrotch being thrust about. It is why they wear helmets.

Savnock wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the essence of your "argument" requires you to call me a "fanboi", it's not much of an argument.

Sadly, Stelek's tone gets in the way of his very good points. he has a good argument- don't just respond to the cranky bits like accusations of fanboism.

Wot? Dakka debate shouldn't degenerate to "I'm rubber, you're glue..."

It's okay to have multiple approaches available under one list, if they all require unique planning and finesse to execute.

Oh, I agree with that. But I'm not really sure "finesse" is something that really applies in 40k gaming.

Actually JohnHwang, you've shown yourself to like things very cut-and-dried, with minimal configurability in lists (less options for vet sarges, less possible approaches from a single armylist, etc.). This may seem like focus to you, but it seems restrictive to those of us who like to shift our approaches from game to game.

I like cleaner army lists, because they cut down on confusion and arguments. Back when GW had armouries and loads of wargear options, the vast majority of the options were never used. So they were a waste of design effort. When SM, BA, and DA can all field the same identical army then each is necessarily less "special". And I hardly see how a slightly more restrictive list prevents one from shifting approaches.

...Until the Vegas GT that is, where we will all kick the holy crap out of each other and demonstrate who has the ability to back up their theoryhammer.

Back when I was single and without responsiblities, I'd have been happy to do this.

"""BS isn't the be-all, end-all of superior shooting. For example, if IG Conscripts were made BS5 (hit on 2s), they'd still be crappy shooters because they're armed with flashlights. ""'

Thats true but in a good 1750-1850 army list the DE will have 17 dark lances and 16- 18 blasters all hitting on 3's

name me an army that has that much firepower hitting on 3's it doesnt exist. no space marine army has that much lascannon type of firepower no eldar force has that many high power st8 ap weapons like the DE

if that isnt the essence of a strong mobile shooting army then nothing is

i dont bother to mention splinter pistols as they are little more then flashlights but the other 35-36 heavy weapons make up for it

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you look at what GW did with 40k3 and WFB6, they tried 2 very different approaches to army lists. In 40k, GW expanded options like crazy, and pulled out a lot of the restrictions that were in 2nd Edition, and then piled on a bunch of sublists. In WFB, GW progressively specialized each army list. It appears that GW find the Fantasy approach of having more narrowly-focused army lists with unique benefits and drawbacks works "better", so GW is grafting that onto 40k, hence the massive nerfage and restriction.

If you knew anything about how the studio functioned, you wouldn't post such utter nonsense.

Since you don't know all the Army Books and Codex's like the rest of the crowd seems to (or are burying your head in the sand) saying what you did is just laughable.

Fantasy lost it's wargear sections? Really? Since f*cking when? Oh right, those books were worked on by the 40k designers who didn't find fantasy unbalanced.

Ergo, the Dwarf, Empire, Orcs & Goblins and High Elf books weren't laughed at on release. They're all quite balanced in relation to each other.

Ah now we come to 40K, where the fantasy designers tossed their cookies at all of the "little command men" having access to wargear.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Chaos--all "fixed" by the fantasy idiots. All laughed at on release.

WOOPS. Time to fire someone, bye bye Gav. Sad too, he finally made another decent book (after Dark Eldar, his first and only one) called Vampire Counts. I guess fething up 40K with his "team" (after he did it in 3rd edition before Andy C got rid of him) got him the axe.

Did you see how the Black Templars came through unscathed? The Orks? Worked on by 40k designers.

Duh.

You think GW is heading towards the 'fantasy' version of 40K?

Sadly, the fantasy version of 40k without the herohammer element is the most boring ass game you can play.

"Your army do anything?"
"Nope, yours?"
"Nope."
".."
"Flames of War then?"

JohnHwangDD wrote:
But getting back to the whole apologist / fanboi nonsense. Just because I'm OK with change, that doesn't make me a fanboy or apologist. If GW has shown nothing, it's that they're not afraid to shake things up. If you can't deal with that, this isn't the hobby for you.

GW has been doing so well shaking things up. The company is in the toilet, circling the drain.

Not the hobby for me? Not the one where my superior skills get reduced to nothing because of people like you, who like the land of Blue, Red, Black, and Yellow armies.

Endless "ranks" of marines for you, and that isn't this hobby. Hopefully with the register ringing NO SALE, loss of market share in every theatre, and fans hoping the next company that takes over isn't run by idiots for people like you...yeah, this hobby isn't for you if all you want is fantasy in 40K--if you even think it's a good thing, you're too far gone to even have a real discussion with.

I do try though, despite the obvious futility of it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE were a fully-supported mainstream army back in 3rd Edition. Heck, they were in the starter box! For a game like 40k, you can't have better support and exposure than being in the starter set.

Oh bullsh*t, they were not. They got like 1 battlereport, and their releases took almost a bloody year. They had no fluff added, no variant army lists, no part in summer campaigns. Most horribly supported release ever in the GW modern age.

Necrons got a hell of a lot more play, and they were built for the marine loving idiots who need a I-WIN button clearly labeled on the package before purchase.

Marines always sell. All variants of them. Look at the demonhunters. Pure sh*t. Two models? Idiots with Halberds in terminator armor, and idiots with halberds in power armor? Gee, sign me up. Wait, where's the I-WIN buttton?! DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Despite the prime positioning, the DE never caught on, which is why GW ended up reconcepting the shooty part of the DE army as Tau.

Laughable at best, bullsh*t when looking for the truth. GW had zero market penetration in Asia. Mecha sells in Asia. Not sure what the shooty part of the DE army that got reclassified as Tau is. All the autocannons they don't have? All those long range demolisher shots? All those jump-shoot-jump troops? All those WS2 guys? Please. Don't talk anymore man.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Eventually, Tau (and Necrons) sold more stuff than DE, the DE were moved out of the starter, and in 2004, DE were moved to Mail Order / "Classic" status.

Necrons are barely hanging on. Yeah, they're so good they got less support in Apocalypse than the Dark Eldar did. Everyone gets moved out of the starter. The Orks did, and it took almost a decade for them to be redone. The Orks got more good models out in the redo than the whole Necron range will, if it ever gets redone.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But to blame DE sales weakness on their being mail order is unfair, given the history of the army.

It's actually not considered support to release a new product and then not promote it, mention it, release anything for it with any rapidity, etc.

DE died because of GW's studio politics. Fantasy wanted it, 40k didn't. Corporate overruled 40k. 40k were big babies, and told Gav to go eff himself.

Soon enough, DE were pulled and Gav wasn't allowed near a 40k ruleset for years.

Yeah, you know your history.

adamsouza wrote:"It is better to be silent and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and confirm it"

Just keep opening your mouth

I usually worry when I see that being said and check if tiggerbaby is around!

fullheadofhair quoted-adamsouza wrote:
"It is better to be silent and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and confirm it"

Just keep opening your mouth




I usually worry when I see that being said and check if tiggerbaby is around!

FTW.

As and old player of DE, I thought that they were a little lacking in the vehicle department.
I believe they would be done better as a one up army in the same scheme as one of the countless FW IG regiments.
they are really lacking in thier choices for supposedly being so " Evil". they could have at least had a couple of special choices in the same scheme as the special jet bike squadrons of the Eldar, or the hand to hand specific " Aspects".

You guys are losing your points in the personal attacks.