They're not much, but they're something!

Here's the link

Here's the info:

PC Gamer magazine (UK) has scooped first real details on THQ's Warhammer 40,000 MMO, shedding light on the game which was unveiled in March '07.

According to the info, the title's definitely an MMORPG as opposed to what could have been a Planetside-esque MMOFPS. But despite that it appears developer Vigil Games is aiming for a reasonably in-depth combat system, as it's orientated around cover, suppressive fire and flanking.

Firefights will take place on a larger scale than those planned by EA Mythic for Warhammer fantasy MMO Age of Reckoning, says the info. Players will be able to form squads, and presumably the WH40K equivalent of guilds - Chapters, will that be? - although that's information being kept under wraps at the moment.

"All of the races important to Warhammer 40,000 lore (not to mention the fans) will be represented", creative director Joe Madureira has explained, adding that "We want each and every race to have weight in the game world... and feel distinct."

He adds there'll be "Tons of stuff hanging off your character, weapons, scrolls... we are going to have the coolest looking characters of any MMO, ever. Once we begin releasing images, feel free to call me on that."

Vigil Games general manager David Adams, meanwhile, cryptically offers that "The term 'Battleground' takes on an entirely different meaning" in the game - which is obviously a reference to WoW's Battlegrounds PvP stuff but who knows what Adams actually means?

"Players", PC Gamer says, "will get to explore cities, alien temples, Chaos shrines, deserted battlefields (er, woo?), mysterious ruins, ancient structures, and - here's the cool one - 'drifting hulks in space'. Space hulks, we call those".

Thanks to PC Gamer magazine for the information in this article, which appears in its new issue #187 which is now in the hands of subscribers and hits your newsagent shortly. The magazine also has a massive feature on Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 2, so don't miss it!

I.
Cannot.
Wait.


On further thought, I wonder how well they will be able to include "all the races essential to Warhammer 40k Lore". It seems rather ambitious. we shall have to wait and see!

That means Dark Eldar are out since they aren't an "essential" race

I'm totally gonna be a Cadian Battlemage.

Essential races at release:

Red Marines.
Blue Marines.
Yellow Marines.
Black Marines.
Spiky Red Marines.
Spiky Blue Marines.

HEY!!!!!

Ok.

Eldar.
Spiky Eldar.

HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is going to be interesting to watch.

They have to overcome the basic problem in the 40K world of races being better than others on the single person scale.

An ordinary Terminator should be able to smack down any single IG player. A starting Space Marine should beat just about any other starting player.

Working things so that the fluff holds is going to make some interesting knots.

I'd rather that a player controled a *unit* rather than a person. Then you could have PC vehicles, and a starting IG could be a Sgt. in command of a remmant squad while a starting SM could be the senior in a Scout duo or triplet. Working up to SM retinues or entire IG vet platoons.

its gonna suck

Deadshane1 wrote:its gonna suck

Like Champions?

Breotan wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:its gonna suck

Like Champions?

40k players couldnt get that lucky.

The 40k franchise in games is like star wars and star trek.

Great IP, looks ok, controls are crap, and content...what's that?

Personally I look forward to the cost overruns, GW's cash problems, and another poorly executed game (like say Warhammer Online, delayed till when again?) to give us another game to play on the Sony Station pass.

Only 29.95 and all this can be yours!

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I have to disagree on one count. Dawn of War was an excellent RTS with some innovative features, awesome graphics for the time and tremendous replay value.

Pretty much every other interpretation of the IP has been bad or worse but DOW is a real gem!

Stelek wrote:The 40k franchise in games is like star wars and star trek.

Great IP, looks ok, controls are crap, and content...what's that?

Personally I look forward to the cost overruns, GW's cash problems, and another poorly executed game (like say Warhammer Online, delayed till when again?) to give us another game to play on the Sony Station pass.

Only 29.95 and all this can be yours!

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Thats a little hard don't you think, DoW looked good, had good controls ( well minus some pathing issues) and decent content, epcially for a RTS that was primarly designed for online play. Also some starwars games were good too Tie-fighter, X-wing, some of the jedi knight stuff. I will give you no one has made a decent star Trek game to save their life though.

While Warhammer Online has been pushed back again its somewhat expected it still less than a year overdue , and your average game normally has 3 months or so of push backs. the average blizzard game has over a years worth. The guys over at Mythic are haveing a long extinsive beta it seems and are actually correcting the issue in both graphics and game play that are getting reported, soo a push back means a cleaner game upon shipping.

Also got to remember that GW has very little to do with this game besides IP stuff ,its actually going to be more like free money to GW not a cost.

as for the 40kMMO and some races ( ie Space Marines) being better than a lowly IG guardsman or Eldar Guardian, well there is a very Traditional method for handing this, XP Penalties. If some one loses 40% more XP per a death and Gains it 40% slow it helps balance stuff out. The power issue between the races would also depend on how PVP the game is going to be since the more PVE it is the less it will matter. It WILL still matter but not as much.

bigtmac68 wrote:I have to disagree on one count. Dawn of War was an excellent RTS with some innovative features, awesome graphics for the time and tremendous replay value.

Yes, but at its bare bones, Dawn of War was just 3D Starcraft with a coat of paint*. Nothing it did hadn't been done before.

BYE

*This is not to start another discussion about who ripped who off. What I'm saying is that DoW's game mechanics, unit structure, buildings, upgrade system etc. were very StarCraft like.

Original? Maybe not. Good game? Hell yeah. Put it this way: DoW and its expansions are way better RTSes than 40K is a tabletop game. If this is what mediocrity looks like, I wish GW could be this mediocre all the time.

Accept for the fact that you didn't just mine gas and minerals all day long no matter who you were.

Or that units were squad based.

Or that units had morale and cover factors that mattered and played a role in the game.

Or that they had many more races and tactics that each had their own feel to them.

Then there is the very well done campaign mode that brought strategy and tactics together on multiple levels.

Wargear for your leaders and elite troops that you could earn and place before a battle ever began.

Yes just a carbon copy of SC with a paint job and nothing new... SC was all about the hordes and rather bland. DoW was much better and still is. Lets see how the new versions of each game fare in the future though. Here's hoping for two awsome game instead of one great game and one game heavily slanted towards korean only tournament play. "Hey man I'm totally gonna beat this kid. His clicks per minute are only 60!!1! Rolfcopter! Silly noob, gonna be pwned."

Star Craft is also what, 5 years older than DoW? Give them a little credit here

Still, DoW is a great game, and other than WoW is the single largest impediment to me getting my miniatures projects done.

I am desperately hoping the 40k mmo will be good and really capture the feel of the universe. It probably will be disappointing, but then so were a lot of my ex-girlfriends, and I put up with them for the feel for quite a long time.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:I have to disagree on one count. Dawn of War was an excellent RTS with some innovative features, awesome graphics for the time and tremendous replay value.

Yes, but at its bare bones, Dawn of War was just 3D Starcraft with a coat of paint*. Nothing it did hadn't been done before.

BYE

*This is not to start another discussion about who ripped who off. What I'm saying is that DoW's game mechanics, unit structure, buildings, upgrade system etc. were very StarCraft like.

Bah! the building structure of StarCraft was based off of WarCraft/Dune/Red Alert type RTSes. What HBMC means that I agree with is that DoW had a better resource system (taking area matters/denying area actually matters not just bases) characters and units that were handled better, Overwatch! and many other improved features. DoW had a very smooth and relatively low system requirement zoom and rotate ability with decent detail even when zoomed all the way in. And the replay value is there because of how many different ways it could be played from assassination to area control to the standard annihilation.

DoW was not just a 3D StarCraft, it is far too different to just be that. StarCraft II however will be Starcraft in 3D with a new coat of paint because it will still have the same resource gathering units/no real map control tactics and so on. I'll still get that and play it because I enojoyed Starcraft so much, but the games are only comparable in that they are RTSes with buildings that give upgrades.

*hopefully the 40K MMO will have innovations like DoW had for a standard game type, but i'm not holding my breath on that one. I've been pleased with Project Reality's imporvements to the FPS genre but it was the only one out of hundreds of Battlefield mods that pulled it off, so a real imporvement in FPS style games is pretty rare also.

I spent alot more time playing Starcraft (campaign AND multiplayer) than I did playing Dawn.

Dawns campaign was what, 3 hours? Then playing MP was boring, sooo many wannabes. Is the MP function a failure on their part? Well, if you wanna say it's a MP game and it's competitive, don't make a crappy MP system.

Tie Fighter is still one of my favorites. Hell, I joined a online club for that, it was so good.

I'm really interested in this, and I'd probably give it a go when and if its released.

I think my main concerns, of things I would like to see answered would be,

What races do they consider we feel are important, as I would think most of us would say any with an army book which is obviously not going to happen, unless they are mad. Also how would the set it up, 2 factions like WaR containing diff races. Split and combo so you'd an Imperial faction, Chaos faction and then some side attractions like Tyranids and Orcs. (The only way I could see Tyranids in there)

How are they gonna do player balance, Guard can melee a Space Marine quite happily, or Guard sees a Marine, he runs in terror as he has no chance. However I do fear the this might make it a strong reason that the races will be Marines, CHaos Marines, Orcs and Eldar, remove guard from the equation. As they can rationlize Orcs as able to equal a marine combat wise, and Eldar could be Aspect based.

I'm gonna watch this space basically, I like the idea behind it, and have WaR to keep me busy in the meantime when its released later in the year, but in general the idea of a 40K MMO is very appealing to me.

dear god i hope there aren't any marines in it - although i'd say their inclusion is the one thing we can rely on.

personally, i'd much prefer the game to be closer in style, scale and setting to inquisitor/necromunda than 40k. it just doesn't make any sense to me that a space marine (or chaos marine, eldar aspect warrior, even imperial guardsman) would be running around on their own doing missions, exploring 'dungeons' or pvping - to me marines only operate in squads on the orders of their chapter on the battlefield - they wouldn't be marines if they were just milling around doing what they pleased (the same goes for the other character types i mentioned too).

i think it makes much more sense to have inquisitors/tech-priests/arbites/rogue traders etc. as human characters, cultists/sorcerers etc. for chaos, pirates/rangers etc. for eldar, and so on. then you could have things like genestealer hybrids as 'nid characters.

still, i suppose it's too early for conjecture - i think thq stand a much better chance of doing a good job of it than most.

Could be a Deathwatch Marine out running errands for his Inq.

See, just fit Marines in there. You can't escape them.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Hadn't seen Joe Madureira's name in quite some time. Good skills, but a little too cartooney/american manga.

Example: http://www.entrecomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ultimates-3-1.jpg

Wonder if any of this will reflect visually in the game.

Strimen wrote:Accept for the fact that you didn't just mine gas and minerals all day long no matter who you were.

Or that units were squad based.

Or that units had morale and cover factors that mattered and played a role in the game.

Or that they had many more races and tactics that each had their own feel to them.

Then there is the very well done campaign mode that brought strategy and tactics together on multiple levels.

Wargear for your leaders and elite troops that you could earn and place before a battle ever began.

Yes just a carbon copy of SC with a paint job and nothing new... SC was all about the hordes and rather bland. DoW was much better and still is. Lets see how the new versions of each game fare in the future though. Here's hoping for two awsome game instead of one great game and one game heavily slanted towards korean only tournament play. "Hey man I'm totally gonna beat this kid. His clicks per minute are only 60!!1! Rolfcopter! Silly noob, gonna be pwned."

Then came Company of Heroes.

Joe Mad! doing the concept work? Wow, sweeet. I loved what he did with Battlechasers, even if it ended prematurely. Please let there be a collector's edition of this game that includes a concept art book.

Now I am actually interested.

engine

Narlix wrote:as for the 40kMMO and some races ( ie Space Marines) being better than a lowly IG guardsman or Eldar Guardian, well there is a very Traditional method for handing this, XP Penalties. If some one loses 40% more XP per a death and Gains it 40% slow it helps balance stuff out.

Not gonna happen. All you'd accomplish by penalizing space marines is aggravating the majority of your customers. Face it - nobody wants to be a chump guardsmen if they have the option to be a space marine, so if you let people play space marines then 90+% of your customers are going to play space marines. Then you'll have a situation where you're obligated to cater to the space marine faction. It's just like Jedi in that Star Wars MMORPG - and much like that game, it will suck.

If they have all the races, I wanna play a squat!

Anyway, reserving judgement till I get to play the beta in about 7 years...

I like the idea, but I have big reservations.

Marines vs Guardsmen? Bad times. Balancing issues will be a nightmare since the very BASIC troops are going to vastly different. What works on the table top isn't going to translate well to MMO where each PLAYER controls a piece. Too bad it so happens YOUR piece is 16% weaker, more vulenerable, shoots worse and has crappier gear than my basic piece.

HUGER than WAR? Every race represented? This dilutes the players all over the map(s) making it harder to get a concentration of players together to fight each other (which is what is toted), or get a swarm/mob together. "Hello? Anyone here in this bg?? Damn...."

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Narlix wrote:as for the 40kMMO and some races ( ie Space Marines) being better than a lowly IG guardsman or Eldar Guardian, well there is a very Traditional method for handing this, XP Penalties. If some one loses 40% more XP per a death and Gains it 40% slow it helps balance stuff out.

Not gonna happen. All you'd accomplish by penalizing space marines is aggravating the majority of your customers. Face it - nobody wants to be a chump guardsmen if they have the option to be a space marine, so if you let people play space marines then 90+% of your customers are going to play space marines. Then you'll have a situation where you're obligated to cater to the space marine faction. It's just like Jedi in that Star Wars MMORPG - and much like that game, it will suck.

100% agreed. I worked on SWG waaaaayyyyy back in the day (in a very minor roll). We really didn't want JEDI to be a profession because of those issues, but were overrulled by SONY. JEDI = Marines and it's going to suffer the same problems.

I got the idea that you wouldn't be able to play marines or maybe not right off the bat.. they could take some liberties there... where power armor or terminator armor are the WOW equivalent of high end raid gear.. or take away the "superhuman" part and have em be normal humans that can get access to better armor and gear as they level up .. so you might start out as a guardsman type but by the time you max your level you'd be more like a marine in strength.. same goes for like Eldar starting as a guardian and working their way up to an aspect warrior or something like that.

Don't expect it to be an exact 100% representation of all the fluff, you'll just be disappointed. If they can put together a game with awesome graphics that's really fun to play, it will be popular no matter how closely it follows the fluff... And I'd rather they focused more on making a great game, than making every fanboy happy in a game that's so boring only the fanboys will ever play it.

Not only that, but if ya read it the guy says all races will be "represented" .. so, necrons and nids might just be things you kill on your quests and stuff, playable races could end up being only humans for all we know, where things like guardsman, hive ganger, inquisitor and cultist are like classes. There's really no details out there so all we can really do is wait and see

There are a ton of ways of addressing the space marine issue.

1- You have to be recruited by a marine chapter
2- You start off as a scout (so not that far above a guardsmen) and the other races/classes are able to keep up in terms of upgrades, for example a marine upgrades to power armour, a guardsman increases in rank and gains control over 9 bot guardsman, an eldar chooses an aspect, etc.
3- Make being a marine a difficult class to play in the non-combat parts of the game.

And so on.

If the design team is creative enough the marine issue can be addressed to create a fun environment. If the design team is looking to just cash a paycheck there will be a bunch of unintelligible space marines running around complaining about their bedtime.

I don't play computer/video games, but Joe Mad's artwork dealing with 40K has me interested. I've followed his work through Uncanny X-Men, Battle Chasers and now Ultimates 3.

If this turns out to be anywhere near as good as dawn of war I will be very happy.

Honestly it wouldn't be that hard to balance Marines within the game. Early level marines would just be newly recruited neophytes with barely an implant just as early level guardsman would be standard guardsman fresh out of bootcamp. Of course the marines level progression would be much slower, probably capping at either a veteran assault marine sgt or an apothcary at max levels, wheras an equal level guardsman would be a commisar or captain. Similarly the eldar would simply train along their chosen path eventually becoming exarchs of some kind.

Orks would just get bigger.

Joe Madureira + 40K = W O W ! !

Even if the game does suck, it'll look fantastic. And if it does look fantastic, i'd buy it (and the nessecary pc upgrades :( ) just to wander around and sightsee

Just like the SW:galaxies MMO, they might be able to get away with making space marines an unlockable character after a few months of play. Kiddies love that stuff. And just like SW:galaxies, hopefully they make a bounty hunter for those of us who love killing the stupid marines. Call it the Inquisitor class. Give similar -XP penalties upon marine death and it'll be awesome.

Madureira is so inappropriate for 40k. Surely?

Why? Giant scrolls, skulls, musclebound hairless men in tights (w/o armor), and giant breasts to appeal to nerds? Sounds like 40k to me.

I wonder about Joe Mad being the creative director behind this game. Don't get me wrong, i collect his stuff when I see it, my own art is influenced by his.

But his art does not really feel he part of the gothic bleh darkness that we know and love as 40K. I don't doubt that he could render up a great ork or marine or nid, but it would be in his style. 40k is its own thing, its own entity, and doesn't need an artist's spin on it.

Joe Mad's artwork has a bit of the WoW feeling of cartoonishness to it. While I love that, 40k needs a much more realistic art style attached for its look to be taken more seriously and for it to have the impact that it requires. The direction that WAR is taking is the same direction that the 40K MMO should be takin as far as how it appears.

As far as being a marine in this game, it is certainly going to happen. But they should keep in many aspects of being a marine that would make it a pain to play - like severely limiting weapons choices and equipment because of the dictates of the Codex Astartes, they should ahve a very rigid command structure that requires the player to do certain things to avoid being penalized somehow.

I would almost think that a marine player would be hampered by his lack of choices in equipment, and most of his 'ranking up' choices are going towards his becoming a marine - black carapace, et al. So it would not nearly be as customizable and individual an experience to be a marine.

Now ORKS! That's where it would be at for this game.

Moopy wrote:HUGER than WAR? Every race represented? This dilutes the players all over the map(s) making it harder to get a concentration of players together to fight each other (which is what is toted), or get a swarm/mob together.

Only in the non-marine areas. PvP will consist of massive parties of marines looking for lone non-marines to gank. Yay!

GrimTeef wrote:As far as being a marine in this game, it is certainly going to happen. But they should keep in many aspects of being a marine that would make it a pain to play - like severely limiting weapons choices and equipment because of the dictates of the Codex Astartes, they should ahve a very rigid command structure that requires the player to do certain things to avoid being penalized somehow.

I would almost think that a marine player would be hampered by his lack of choices in equipment, and most of his 'ranking up' choices are going towards his becoming a marine - black carapace, et al. So it would not nearly be as customizable and individual an experience to be a marine.

That all sounds well and good, but you also have to remember where your bread is buttered. While giving marines all kinds of penalties and restrictions and making them a pain to play might make for good game design, it might not make for good business.

stonefox wrote:Just like the SW:galaxies MMO, they might be able to get away with making space marines an unlockable character after a few months of play. Kiddies love that stuff. And just like SW:galaxies, hopefully they make a bounty hunter for those of us who love killing the stupid marines. Call it the Inquisitor class. Give similar -XP penalties upon marine death and it'll be awesome.

Yeah, but then they changed it so that you could start out as a Jedi and removed all the -XP penalties and bounty hunting. And predictably the Jedi population exploded, driving all the others to the brink of extinction. Hooray!

I dunno about you, but I'm gonna roll a Tyranid Priest. Gonna grind to be the first level 50 Healerfex!

To echo similar sentiments, I honestly can't see how they plan to incorporate the diverse armies and still retain any shred of balance.

But then again, we know 0.001% about the game, so it's all just myth and conjecture at this point.

I'm gonna roll Grot Warboss. Mark my words.

That fact that every race will be 'represented' doesn't mean that they'll all be playable. Given that it has Chapters instead of Guilds, it's possible that the players are only Marines (and Chaos Marines for the other faction) and the other stuff is represented by what they go kill.

I'd be surprised if Tyranids were a playable race. They scream NPC monster race to me.

I was holding out hope it'd be Planetside, but I guess not.

Might still be fun, but what a missed chance.

I am really excited to see what the PvE aspect of this game will be.

Can you say Instance: Hive Fleet Behemoth?
Or Crypt of the Nightbringer?
Or Temple of Chaos Ascendant?
Or Temple of the High Ecclesiarchy?

Or how about Desecrating the Palace of Hera on Ultramar? Hell yes.

quote]

. I will give you no one has made a decent star Trek game to save their life though.

Aduro wrote:I'd be surprised if Tyranids were a playable race. They scream NPC monster race to me.

I'd be surprised if Necrons were a playable race.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:I have to disagree on one count. Dawn of War was an excellent RTS with some innovative features, awesome graphics for the time and tremendous replay value.

Yes, but at its bare bones, Dawn of War was just 3D Starcraft with a coat of paint*. Nothing it did hadn't been done before.

BYE

*This is not to start another discussion about who ripped who off. What I'm saying is that DoW's game mechanics, unit structure, buildings, upgrade system etc. were very StarCraft like.

Actually it was very Dune 2 like (the first RTS). My issue with RTS's in general is that they haven't evolved much. Sure the graphics get better every time, but the basic core game play of build your base, build your glob of units and then send them out against your enemy's glob of units still hasn't changed. The only strategy involved is the plan on what order to build various units, buildings, and upgrades in. The only RTSish game that I've seen with any real innovation in the last 10ish years has been the Total War series.

as long as they have an option where I can line up my dice, after being soundly beaten in pve and pvp, and an option to destroy those dice, I don't care what else they do.

and I hope this game is nothing like SW gayaxies. that crap was so bad I went out and used my cd as one of my pulls at a skeet shoot. complete crap that was

Phoenix wrote:. The only RTSish game that I've seen with any real innovation in the last 10ish years has been the Total War series.

Total War, Call of Duty (aside from base-building missions), and other similar games are called RTT - Real Time Tactical games.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
That all sounds well and good, but you also have to remember where your bread is buttered. While giving marines all kinds of penalties and restrictions and making them a pain to play might make for good game design, it might not make for good business.

Agreed, but letting the same thing that happened to Star Wars Galaxies with the Jedi happen to this MMO with the marines might not make for good business either. If it's 70% marines out there in the game all the time, I would imagine that would lower the interest level in the game, especially if the marines are at the ubermensch level they are supposed to be in the fluff...

Who knows though. I would hope that they are thinking about these kinds of things.

I think the best thing to do would be to make playing as a Space Marine available, and without stupid penalties, but adapted to what makes MMO's addictive. The progression of appearance, power, and options. And none of that "penalty for being a marine" crap. I for one don't want the game to have a 99.9999999% ubermensch population either, but why are we gonna make content for the game for people to play, and then discourage them from playing it? What happened to "expand the game, don't restrict the players?".

Heres my idea.

Marine Tree. Pick a chapter(for minor "racial" bonuses and talents)

Start as a newly in/abducted Recruit, then about level 10 or so (whenever they decide to implement the near obligatory talent trees) you become a scout. This makes sense, as scouts are the lowest level of marines seen that come in vanilla, close combat, sniper, and heavy weapons varieties. At some other pre-determined mid level, you get your power armor. Then at about level 40 or so you can become a veteran sergeant with options to further specialize whatever you were going for with your previous levels. Some sort of tree like

Close Combat-duh
Medical/Passive self buffs-so you could actually plan on being an apothecary, or invest in stuff like, "Thick Skulled(HURR!1!)-5% less chance of being interrupted when attacking with powerfist per rank" and could have 1 point unlocks for Terminator and Artificer armour(with speed, strength, etc. buffs or debuffs)
Firepower

Most every piece of marine equipment could fall into one of those categories anyway.

But the point its, you can and will eventually be a super bad azz marine, but by then everyone else would be Eversor Assassins, Cannnonnessessess, IG Senior Officers with Fire Support artillery attacks (Hey! A Mage!) and all that.

And really, noone is gonna pick a guardsmen to be a guardsmen late-game. You would be better of leaving them as NPC's so that the players can be the small groups of heroes that make the differences in huge set piece battles.

Sounds good to me, Railguns.

I never enjoyed playing as mages but in the form of an IG artillery officer, I might. It's really stupid. It's the same game mechanics with a different skin and I'll jump through that hoop. Wow.

Its weird, isn't it? People keep bringing up the comparison between Guardsmen and Marines as some sort of wall preventing a balanced game. Who, honestly, who wants to play a fantasy game in a fantasy world of unbelievably epic proportions, but do it as something as blase' and un-epic as a guardsmen? No one plays WoW to be an Orc Peon or Alliance villager.

I think issue is that for the table top game, Marines are formed up into large armies and squad formations to fill in the basic troops, elites, fast attack, and all that jazz like every other army. The fact that marines are elite combat specialists that function more like the super-powered SEALS Teams of the future is lost in translation, and people start associating marines one on one with other armies troops subconsciously. I think as soon as people may need to realize that you don't have to balance a marine down to lowly Joe Bolt-Bait, because everyone is going to be playing some sort of elite, super-powered something or other with them. People want to play the Terminator Squad that teleports directly into the Demon Princes Inner Sanctum and have a huge dramatic fight, not the guy with a lasgun that sits outside shooting at other guys just like him but with spikes on their space-clothes for the 4 month siege leading up to it.

Phryxis wrote:I was holding out hope it'd be Planetside, but I guess not.

Might still be fun, but what a missed chance.

Totally agreed. A pretty much untapped market right now (MMOFPS) and they want to compete with WoW and (already in development) WoW 2? Good luck, this'll probably suck

You think nids will be in style?

Man, a rogue genestealer. Yeah, sign me up. lol

I would love to play Tyranids in an MMO

Railguns wrote:Its weird, isn't it? People keep bringing up the comparison between Guardsmen and Marines as some sort of wall preventing a balanced game. Who, honestly, who wants to play a fantasy game in a fantasy world of unbelievably epic proportions, but do it as something as blase' and un-epic as a guardsmen? No one plays WoW to be an Orc Peon or Alliance villager.

I think issue is that for the table top game, Marines are formed up into large armies and squad formations to fill in the basic troops, elites, fast attack, and all that jazz like every other army. The fact that marines are elite combat specialists that function more like the super-powered SEALS Teams of the future is lost in translation, and people start associating marines one on one with other armies troops subconsciously. I think as soon as people may need to realize that you don't have to balance a marine down to lowly Joe Bolt-Bait, because everyone is going to be playing some sort of elite, super-powered something or other with them. People want to play the Terminator Squad that teleports directly into the Demon Princes Inner Sanctum and have a huge dramatic fight, not the guy with a lasgun that sits outside shooting at other guys just like him but with spikes on their space-clothes for the 4 month siege leading up to it.

Yeah, except not everyone wants to play a marine chaplain, and honestly it would be pretty stupid to have 50 something chaplains and librarians assaulting a chaos compound in -any- event. The entire point of an MMO is the community aspect. Not to have everyone be some sort of bronzed herculean god capable of cracking moons in half with a rough glare. If all anyone ever does is play the exact same overpowered marine class and joe everyman who wants to play a guardsman or ork is left to just die constantly than it's a pretty horrible game design and will probably loose its player base in a few months and flounder. This isn't an argument against having Space marines be heavilly destructive walking tanks, but you can't balance a game like this around the fluff and still have it work. A space marine is twice as strong as an ork, faster than an eldar, is capable of taking clearly fatal wounds without slowing and can spit -acid- in the fluff. That doesn't translate to a game well. Unless you have some sort of sliding progression that places marines on a slower scale then they will just dominate in every aspect of the game and those -epic battles- will end up as the same boring one sided slaghter.

The imperial guard outnumber the space marine chapters over a million to one over. Orks probably much more so. Even the eldar and tau outnumber them in some rediculous fashion. I for one hope this doesn't become like star wars galaxies with the jedi, an elite tiny order of supersoliders outnumbering every other class in the game many times over.

I swear I would honestly play an Adeptus Administratum scribe over a Space Marine - I really hope they focus more on the rpg element than the running round murdering things element.

I think it'd be cool if they had different races playing different games.
IE:
Marine: FPS
Guard: Squad based FPS
Tyranids: RTS
It would actually balance the game a bit if you think about it. That way 6 guard players would be like a large raid, will 6 marines would be a lightning fast assault force, and 6 nid players would be a hive fleet.

I'll gleefully play a mere guardsman if I'm the one commanding the Stormblade...

I think you missed the point. Yes, there will be marines, but by the time they are actually full on Chaplains or Librarians or what have you, its practically endgame anyway. In WOW terms, you wouldn't actually make power armor till level 35 or something, 60 or so before you go to be a "hero level marine". There won't be any incentive to play them in regards to power level, but in style of play. Did you read my other post? I think thats a pretty good way to keep it stretched out(again, its in WoW terms)

By that time, people who started as orks will be frackin Warbosses, people who started as Guardsmen of some type will be a commisar or something. Hell, they'll probably have artistic license to just make things up to compensate. Do you really want to start as a guardsmen w/flashlight, and 400 hours of playtime later, want to be that same guardsmen w/ flashlight? If you said yes, reevaulate why you are playing an mmo in the first place. An mmo is about progression, thats what keeps people addicted to it.

Kotrin, sure, you just won't start that way. It's the point of an MMO.

I play MMOs/FPSs to hang out with friends sometimes when we can't hang out in real life. I know some people play it cuz they need online validation cuz they suck in real life, but from my experience most normal people played WoW to hang out with friends and not so they can repeatedly piss people off like the SA goonsquad. So heroic supersoldier or not, I'll play it as long as not everyone else is a supersoldier. If everyone's on equal footing as a guardsman, marine recruit, or imperial bureaucrat or one of those flying babies, it should be fine.

I would very much like to believe that the publisher will do as you say, but let's be realistic. People want to be SPAZ MARIENS the same way people want to be OMGJEDI. And they shall have it. But, if I do have money to spare I will try and get a few friends to play with me so we can be rainbow warriors.

Railguns wrote:I think you missed the point. Yes, there will be marines, but by the time they are actually full on Chaplains or Librarians or what have you, its practically endgame anyway. In WOW terms, you wouldn't actually make power armor till level 35 or something, 60 or so before you go to be a "hero level marine". There won't be any incentive to play them in regards to power level, but in style of play. Did you read my other post? I think thats a pretty good way to keep it stretched out(again, its in WoW terms)

By that time, people who started as orks will be frackin Warbosses, people who started as Guardsmen of some type will be a commisar or something. Hell, they'll probably have artistic license to just make things up to compensate. Do you really want to start as a guardsmen w/flashlight, and 400 hours of playtime later, want to be that same guardsmen w/ flashlight? If you said yes, reevaulate why you are playing an mmo in the first place. An mmo is about progression, thats what keeps people addicted to it.

Kotrin, sure, you just won't start that way. It's the point of an MMO.

I'm going to note that that is exactly what I said in my first post, which in fact predated any of your posts. Of course it's about progression. And that sliding scale is about keeping the progression equal. A space marine seargant is more powerful than a commisar in every aspect. He may have less wounds on the tabletop but that's just to keep game balance. Only one of them can lift a tonne, has two sets of lungs, and can eat rocks. The space marine would crack him in half with a rough glare. The sliding scale ensures that that endgame makes some lick of sense. As well as the midgame. And the early game. In fact I think thats what everyone keeps saying, though you seem really against and idea that was apparently yours to begin with as of the post I am quoting.

Not everyone should be able to be chaplains. In fact no one should. That would be like making everyone lord BigMcLargeHuge whose power is maximum. It's just kind of stupid to have -everyone- be on the highest tier of power available in the fiction. Should everyone get to be chapter masters too? I wan't to be solar macharius! Oh, hey lets go invite some more chaplains to the team so that we can go fight 15 warbosses in PvP! That would be a bit silly.

"Oh, hey lets go invite some more chaplains to the team so that we can go fight 15 warbosses in PvP! That would be a bit silly."


Sounds like an APOC game to me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

MMOs should be based off (what seems like) good ideas in APOC. Here comes my gravy train of tyranid sporemines!

I didn't mean that literally everyone will all be Chaplains or Warbosses, those are just examples. I don't think I brought them up in the first place(maybe warbosses though ). And no, I don't think the developers should follow the fluff very deeply for putting character types in perspective. Then we WOULD have the stupid exaggerated characters that would cause a Star Wars Galaxies effect. I hate to use Wow as a template and all, but the game will likely follow them anyway, as it has put down some fairly ubiquitous aspects of MMOs by now. Take the difference between humans and Tauren, story wise, for example. Tauren are supposed to be huge, uber-tough minotaur men, and humans, well, not so much. But a Human Warrior and Tauren warrior aren't much different gameplay wise or even power-wise besides some statistical differences and racial bonuses. They don't religiously follow the fluff and make Tauren the un-killable, rampaging monsters they are described as, so we don't have to make marines the unkillable, rampaging, two lunged, rock eating, acid spitting sun-farting psychotics that every two bit writer in GW's stable says they are. Give them some advantage for being marines, sure, but give everyone else some advantage to compensate.

Honestly, I thought you were contradicting me in your second post. I didn't say anything about chaplains or Librarians until then, you did. I did not see your first one, otherwise I would have acknowledged that and agreed. Sorry for that then. I was thinking more like, the Warrior equivalent would be a Veteran Sargeant (capped rank) that had obtained terminator armor, specialized in CC type talents, and was equipped with assault Termie weapons. A firepower guy could be some vet devastator with a tricked out missile launcher or assault cannon(creative license to give power armor an assault cannon if they wanted too, depends.) and a bunch of shooty talents.


My ultimate point is that it isn't necessary to restrict the players when you can expand the game. Why punish people for playing marines when you can give everyone else the same power level? I don't even particularly care whether they are in the game or not. I'm just saying that if they are, then it isn't like its impossible to balance the game. You may change the focus of the game, sure, but it isn't a death sentence to a playable game.

Why punish people for playing marines when you can give everyone else the same power level?

Why make everyone the same power level when they can appease the marine kids and ensure the money keeps flowing in?

I said nothing about pleasing marine kids. Honestly, I have never played marines and swore against ever doing so when I started because there were so many.
As far as making a good game though, I think it would be a step in the right direction. I think there is more money to be made pleasing gamers as a whole with a balanced product, than by trying to please the Spaze Mahreinz!!11(Hurr!) kiddos out there. I mean, if you want to play a marine, than play a marine, but I'm guessing the uninitiated gaming community at large isn't as likely to have huge agglomerations of Space Marines as the table top game would, especially if the game just happened to have other, just as viable options.

Personally, I think it would be awesome if the quality of the character was inversely proportional to a number of NPCs that the player could control.
Basically, Space Marines would start out playing a Sergeant leading 4 other marines. Guardsmen would start as junior officers leading a platoon. Tau and Eldar would lead something like 2 10 man squads or something. As they progress they gain favor or fame within their faction, which can be used to upgrade equipment, repair existing equipment, replace casualties and even expand the size of the group they lead.
This would allow any large PvP event to include hundreds of soldiers fighting without having to have hundreds of players.
In addition, players would have to manage replacing casualties with fresh recruits as well as acquiring armor and equipment for the entire group.
Recruits and equipment could all cost varying amounts to represent the general skill level of the soldier and the technology level of the equipment.
A Space Marine squad losing three guys will hurt a players pocketbook as much as an Imperial Guard player losing 3 squads of his 4 squad platoon.

Like Kingdom under Fire? I liked that system, actually. You controlled a unit, and when you actually went into combat, control switched to your hero so you could help your unit fight it out. What a particular unit did was determined by the skills you gave its officer. Although equipment was done on a unit basis(except for officers, they had their own because you could switch them around units), not by individuals. It would be more convenient that way, as long as you could simply retain the option for, say, 4X heavy bolters in the unit.

Sounds like an APOC game to me.

*facepalms*

Honestly, I thought you were contradicting me in your second post. I didn't say anything about chaplains or Librarians until then, you did. I did not see your first one, otherwise I would have acknowledged that and agreed. Sorry for that then. I was thinking more like, the Warrior equivalent would be a Veteran Sargeant (capped rank) that had obtained terminator armor, specialized in CC type talents, and was equipped with assault Termie weapons. A firepower guy could be some vet devastator with a tricked out missile launcher or assault cannon(creative license to give power armor an assault cannon if they wanted too, depends.) and a bunch of shooty talents.

Looks like we just misinterpereted one another. I thought you were arguing for an ultra powerful end game full of Spez Mahreeens!!1 commanders teleporting around and fighting epic superbattles while leaving all the other races behind because it would be cool. One missed post can cause so much confusion X.X .

What could match a veteran seargant in terminator armor though for the other classes? A nob in mega armour could do it I guess, but unless IG vets get to command squads themselves (ala city of villains), or the Eldar exarchs get a hefty boost in power it would be difficult.

Well, I think all they really need to do is buff them up, go a little beyond the blunt comparison the table top rules make them out to have. They may have to fabricate things completely. An Eldar Harlie could have a huge advantage in attack speed and critical attacks, or you contribute huge amounts of ranged damage as a reaper Exarch. The IG could have a "pet" squad, or be able to call in Valkyrie strikes(like my Senior Officer/Mage idea). I'm not really an IG guy though, thats why I suggested that "human" characters would eventually become Eversor Assassins, Inquisitors, etc. Not Space Marines, but killy enough in their own respects to match or exceed what a marine could do in certain situations, so that a mixed party would be the preferable approach. Need that Chaos Sorcerer hiding out back dead before he can debuff your party? Have someone playing a Vindicare or Pathfinder take care of him. Some huge, stompy Tyranid engaging your ranged guys? Throw a guy In Termie armour to tie him up and allow the support guys to do your thing. Your party about to be overwhelmed by mobs? Have your IG commanding officer to call in a lance strike or Basilisk attack.

It would be funny with the idea I said if someone took an IG platoon and made half of them medics and half of them plasma gunners. Combat would go like this:
plasma gunners fire
masses of badguys take massive damage along with plasma gunners having their weapons overheat
medics try to patch up the plasma casaulties before the next volley

Before its patched for being BoRken!!1!! in PvP.

Maybe an IG would be like a Master Mind in City of Villians. You start as you but as you go up in level/rank you get more IG under your command and at high level you have 4 or 5 guys like a command squad with one being a medic and one being a special weapon troop. Make up for less straight up damage with overall numbers.

Will I be allowed to have Chaos Marines and Daemons in my group when we go in a raid? Or can't they be mixed?

BYE

If I were on the dev team?

Yes, yes and yes.
Holy game law number 1.!
Expand the game, don't restrict the players!

Please send your resume to the GW Dev team. They need people like you.

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:Not to have everyone be some sort of bronzed herculean god capable of cracking moons in half with a rough glare.

For some reason, that made me think of Chuck Norris.

I think a 40k MMO is going to leave a lot to be desired. I would hope that they would try to make something original, like a squad based MMO-RTS. In going the MMO route for 40k I hate to say but I think to make it a good game they may need to take an imperial centric game play. Some like inquisitor or the Dark Heresy tabletop would probably serve as a better model than what is sounding more and more like random individual marines and guards roaming across the countryside of a wasteland of a planet, spam killing squiq and gretchin to level.

I just hope that its not slowed.

Maybe if they did what was proposed in that Star Trek MMO that sank. Actually have a high command that the players have to do together. Or make the missions party neceszsary like in Guild Wars.

As to make up for the marine thing.

How about every person starts off as either a human guardsman or a Chaos cultist? (Just focusing on those two for now) That way you could possibly fill a 40 man requirement for a mission rather quickly seeind as every low level player owuld be one. Then when you get to say level 40 you can start to break away to the other paths. You could do a faction specific quest to become recruited to a space marine chapter or part of the inquisition. And for from there, so at ~40 you would be a spacemarine scout. With all the wicked coolness of the table top. You could then have a seperate skill trees for the scouts that would eventually replace the skills you would have as a high level guardsmen. (say a storm trooper?) And for the cultist you would be a mutant or something that would then acheive either daemon hood or be inducted into the Chaos Space Marines. And instead of having scout traits make them worse then regular marines but as they level up let them be boosted by demonic powers or possession. While neither would get farther than Terminators. (and no terminator seargents or Aspiring Champions.) Though their stats and weapon and gear options would increase as well. And say... make 60 to be a fully conducted space marine and 90 to be a termie.

As for mounts, you could have Bikes or attack bikes or jump packs of some kind. This would be cool especialy in a battleground setting as you could do something similar to BF 2 and have an over commander who isn't actually present in the battle but is issuing orders. Though he would have an in battle avatar who could be assasinated and thus your entire team would lose both an overall view, and tactical cohesion. The over commander could also be the one in control of the vehicles in terms of movement and sshooting. While the individual players could decide whether or not to embark/disembark or even follow orders ingeneral. Oonce the generals avatar is killed he reverts to his basic character and all the vehicles would then be player controlled. Also, you could have it so that certain roles are limited before heading in to the battlefeild. So in say a 100 per side battle only 10 would be space marines of any kind and the rest would be gaurdsmen or inquisition of varying levels. (or say 30 marines of varying type, and five termies being seperately commanded but with 200 gaurds running around dying and with a seperate commander. Yet the two oovercommanders on the same team would be able to communicate.)

That would make for some kick ass gameplay don't you thing?

Yep, using artistic license to have Marines recruit from exceptional _adult_ human beings rather than juveniles would make this work. You can become a Space Marine neophyte when you are already heading for uber status. It's really only in recent fluff (Descent of Angels, other HH fluff, Grey Knights series) that I recall seeing the requirement for only younger humans to be recruited into the Space Marine ranks.

It seems like an easy fix, really, with minimal fluff rewriting.

Hmm.. that idea has some merit too.
As for vehicles, I think it would be neat if different areas of the game would be better for vehicle use(your mounts) and on foot. Different sections of a siege, or even different players playing different roles, on foot characters supporting vehicle bound people in battles.

This is how the ideal 40k MMO would go in my head:

It would be neat if the primary 'combat' areas of the game were meant to be multi-functional 'theaters' of combat instead of just the usual dungeon-equivalents.

Basically, have a non-combatant area for between-adventure stuff. The necessary shops, crafting areas, commissaries, etc. The idjits who want to goof off with /dance commands can hang out here. Depending on the 'theater' you're in, it might be a Hive City section, a troop ship, or a more rustic small town.

Entering the 'Theater' is a trip to a door representing a shuttle (or other transport).

The Theater is a large map. Perhaps multiple zones, even. If support for joining the Ruinous Powers or Filthy Xenos is in, I'd add that, if not I'd say it should be a design consideration, as it's a likely expansion opportunity.

A Theater might be a contested city, a space hulk, or some other target. Each Theater would correspond to a band of levels. Each Theater would also have a large 'base' for the Imperials (and the other factions if involved). The shuttles/respawns are in the base, and various non-combat skills can be used to keep the base up, making the geam kind of a MMO version of Team Fortress.

Let's assume the Imperial City Theater. The base might be a battered section of defensive fortifications. Our players grab a shuttle in (In this case, it may actually be a steam-punk train system from the inner core of the city). This is a low-level zone, so we have a Space Marine Scout (who just started today, so he hasn't even picked up the Sniper Rifle power set yet), an ImpGuard Grunt (who's a bit more experienced: He's got the Basic Vehicles skills as well as Heavy Weapons I. Plus he had enough credits to pick up a Quality Bolt Pistol from the merchants), an Assassin (Who started as a commoner, but chose the assasin path and now ahs access to disguise and backstab type powers) and their friend who's been playing since day 1, a Commissar (high-level ImpGuard Officer with lots of buffing abilities).

They spread out into the Theater. The quest log has several open missions and mini-map indicates that this zone is threatened by Orks, so they chat (voice-chat would make sense) and decide the best strategy. The Commissar is here purely to help his friends: The Theater he should be in would require taking a shuttle to a dropship that connects to a Theater where there's a nasty Hive Tyrant at the end of a dark Hulk, but he's not in the mood for it.

The Space Marine pretty quickly moves out ahead, while the others hang back. The Guardsman finds a vehicle bay in the base and uses his Requisition skill to have a Sentinel sent down while the Assassin goes to see what the Space Marine is up to. The Commisar goes to the upper level of the Fortifications and grabs a terminal, which gives him an RTS-style view of the group he is with. he looks over the group's missions and selects a mission to relieve a ImpGuard fire-team. It's got a healthy reward in Requisition and advances the Imperial Lines a bit. He does so, and uses his Requisition to spawn a handful of NPC guardsmen to escort the party. back in the lower fortifications, the Guardsman has finished his requisition and the Sentinel has been dropped off. he mounts up, and starts stomping around, looking for the SM and Assassin. The Commissar points out the way and sues an RTS interface to give them a route.

As is common in such games, the group doesn't quite follow, but it's close enough. The SM and Assassin take on some small Orks as they wait for the Guardsman to show up: they'll need his firepower if they end up ina tougher mission. Getting to the mission site is a long process, and they lose a few Guardsmen in the process, but the Commissar respawns them. They're not particularly effective, but they're cheap and they can help draw fire. The 'Stategic Console' options differ for each class: The Assassin might have no other options than an air strike, while the Space Marine might call Space Marines or Terminators at high levels. The group wishes they had someone on playing a Techpriest, as being able to spawn better vehicles for the Guardsman would have been nice, as well as air strikes and artillery. Still, if they had a Techpriest, they might want him along to fix the defenses they've seen... There was a bridge a ways back that was destroyed when overrun. If they had a Techpriest he could have fixed that and saved them a lot of time.

At the missions scene they find a small ImpGuard firebase. They fight the Orks assailing it and the Guardsman switches to a convenient Heavy Bolter after his sentinel is destroyed. This is a 'territory' style mission: once the group is on-site they are constantly harrassed by orks, but need only occupy the site logn enough to have considered it complete.

Completing this mission opens up another mission leading the group further into the Theater. Eventually the group comes upon the enemy base but the defenses are too tough. The Assassin wanders off, using a new ability to look like an Ork. The Assassin sneaks through the base which, overall, has similar 'stations' to the Imperial fortifications. Up on the top floor the Assassin backstabs an NPC Mechboy who is keeping the defenses up. The NPC Warboss kills the Assassin, but this gives the group a chance to rush the opening. If not for the Assassin, they would have require a lot more people and Requisition expenditures to crack the defenses.

An important thing is that the Theater is instanced similar to how City of Heroes and other games does it: A 2nd instance is only created if the first is considered 'full.' Each Theater has a number of mission spots (both the simple one shown above and more complex ones) an can be 'won' by either side. If the Theater is won all Imperials in the theater are rewarded with Credits (for merchants, etc.... A relatively rare resource), Requisition (This is used for in-Theater things like spawning NPC helpers, vehicles, buildings, etc.), and Experience (classic RPG-style leveling, perhaps with some room for various classes to branch with experience.

I just hope that it doesn't suck.

ok look at warhammer online its going to be summed up basicly the same race and class wise.

Marines and IG will be under one spot like orcs and goblins from the fantasy mmo.

(dont forget Warhammer online doesnt like single type classes they enjoy classes with multiple roles . )

The space marines will choose either a "tank class with a little of something else" or a "something else with a little tank." (the something else either being range dps or range tank or some kind of healing aspect.)


the imperial guard will oviously not be as strong but get something along the lines of like, a commissar controls (like from City of Villian.) a range of minions at his side that get stronger (IG vets) as you level up. Your abilities will be things like shoot one in the head to make the others go crazy strong or w/e and other buffs and some abilities of your own vs. your opponents.
Their other class would probably be something like a sniper of some sort with really high damage output and lots of stealth, maybe to the point of one shotting fairly decent targets if waited long enough with a really good shot, maybe get a spotter NPC of some sort. and probably really nice healing output.

witch hunters, sisters of battle, daemon hunters, are probably going to be playble but not as an entire race really only as certain classes ie. the sisters of battle would be a space marine class choice as the daemon hunters would be another choice.

Chapters are going to be guilds.

they might add the mechanicum (I kno spellling sux. ) as the 3rd side to the "good guys."


The baddies are probably going to be chaos marines and traitor guard.


They might do a couple of other sides or just do the same ol Good Vs. (what they think to be good.) evils
we all know orcs will be playable what decent mmo doesnt have orcs anymore >.> *hides while I play eve online.*

if they do do that then expect races like Tau for some reason tricked into working with Chaos by some sort of Tzeench magic (honestly though the Tau will proably be a NPC race... cause well they have no allies, other than themselves.). (we all know theres no way in the Nine hells or the will of the 4 chaos Gods that the imperials would do ANYTHING with aliens.) Orcs will be tricked into work with chaos... again...

The Eldar will probably somehow be a good guy race even though the space marines would honestly NEVER approve... the only way would be maybe the tyranids took over a very important world and the marines were forced to ally with them... the chaos tricked the orcs because they see the imperium is weak and this is their chance to strike. (another reason for eldar to be good guys.) Dark eldar... well they are a dying race so probably not going to be included...if they are we know what side they are on.



tyranids and necrons... sorry fanbois (tyranid player myself.) they in no way will be playable... thank you.... any attempt is just false hope.

All in all look at warhammer online the fantasy game and see its exact same clone to make tons of money for 40k thats going to be the 40k mmo... why change something that aint broke right? Just "fix" it to be in the 40k universe.

If they do have each race as seperate sides (like the fluff.) be ready for a more condensed imperium and tau as a playable race along with eldar, orcs, chaos marines, of course space marines and imp guard on one side, and no witch hunters/ daemon hunters (unless it becomes a side trait you get to pick.) and sisters of battle is honestly just going to be a gender change when you pick your character (maaaayyybee they will have a high dex and lowwer str trait.) (just more condensed than the other races by themselves.) (not daemons, or tyranids, or necrons... they will be the PvE quest enemies of course XP.) IF necrons are playable your going to be a pariah enough said. and IF tyranids are playable your going to be a rouge character, classes being, lictor, genesteeler, or zoany (bigger maybe.)

In terms of leveling and such you WILL NOT get as high as a chaplin or w/e because well... the fluff isnt designed to have hundreds of chaplins attacking a necron tomb... sorry. If players get the chance too it will ONLY be open to the best PvP'ers of the week/ month (special pvp rank armor and buffs.) Same goes for the big meks and others. B4 you quote me about the commissar well... how many commissars are their in the IG army? yeah.... a lot.... enuf said.

GLHF!
that was my rant with my years experience as a GM and a beta tester for many mmos... btw... wow sucks.... yeah thats right. w/e bye bye.

*Face Palm*

Over a year, and no more news, and you think we would be interested in your opinion NOW?

Peace.

sa

I dub thee necromancer of threads long dead and curse thee for wasting my time...

Wow, serious thread necromancy I still like my idea from a year ago, although I admit it would be hard to balance.

Locking due to extreme thread necromancy.