419
Post by: Chaoslord
There is/was a pretty comprehensive recap document about the 40k daemon codex around the intarnets and I selectively c&p'd this stuff from there. It's also good to notice that 5th ed (with the probable rending nerf) is just around corner so some of the stuff may seem odd with 4th edition in mind. I've tried to make this a bit more obscure so it's not quite "all-you-need-to-play" so it doesn't get deleted (hopefully). 
The general rules:
All daemons are fearless and have inv saves. They are also immune to ID. No psychic powers in the list, the "psychic powers" work like innate abilites and work like normal shooting for example such as needing "to-hit" roll. At deployment, split army in half as evenly as possible and choose on half. On a 3+ you get the half you wanted. The half you got deepstrikes on turn 1 and the rest ds with normal rules (which apply to the 1st turn ds'ers too).
The meat:
HQ: Greater Daemons or 2 heralds per slot. 4 special heralds (1 for each god) and 3 special greaters daemons available.
All greaters have 4+ inv and heralds 5+, tzeentch stuff has a bit better and khorne stuff has power armor in addition. Ld 10 all around also. Normal heralds and greaters also have a limited selection of gifts to choose. Gift price range is 5-40, most are 5-25.
'Thirster (pts:land raider)
WS: 10, BS: 4, S: 7, T: 6, W: 4, I: 5, A: 5
Blessing of the Blood God (2+ save against psychic powers and force weapons)
Death Strike (12", S7, AP2, Assault 1)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead
GUO (pts:12 marines)
WS: 6, BS: 4, S: 6, T: 6, W: 5, I: 2, A: 4
Monstrous Creature
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Noxious Touch (Always wound on 2+)
Cloud of Flies (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit in the shooting phase)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)
KoS (pts-4xspeeder)
WS: 8, BS: 4, S: 6, T: 6, W: 4, I: 10, A: 6
Monstrous Creature
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", only usable once per unit per
turn)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)
LoC (pts:land raider)
WS: 5, BS: 5, S: 6, T: 6, W: 4, I: 5, A: 3
Monstrous Creature
Flight (Jump troop)
Bolt of Tzeentch (24", S8, AP1, Assault 1)
Soul Devourer (Models taking a wound must pass Ld test or die)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Master of Sorcery (Can fire one additional weapon per shooting phase)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
We Are Legion (Can split fire and charge a different unit that you shot at)
Boon of Mutation (Gift of Chaos, turns an enemy model into Chaos Spawn)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)
Herald of Khorne (pts:techmarine with storm bolter  )
WS: 6, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 4, W: 2, I: 5, A: 3
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Hellblade (Power weapon)
Choose up to one:
Juggernaut of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv)
Chariot of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +2 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv, no longer an Independent
Character)
Choose up to three:
Fury of Khorne (Rending)
Death Strike (12", S7, AP2, Assault 1)
Iron Hide (3+ Save)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Blessing of the Blood God (2+ save against psychic powers and force weapons)
Icon (Teleport Homer)
Herald of Tzeentch (pts:speeder)
WS: 2, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 2
Independent Character
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Choose up to one:
Disc of Tzeentch (+1 A, Jump Troop)
Chariot of Tzeentch (+2 A, +1 T, +3 W, Jetbike, no longer an Independent
Character)
Choose up to three:
Master of Sorcery (Can fire one additional weapon per shooting phase)
We Are Legion (Can split fire and charge a different unit that you shot at)
Soul Devourer (Models taking a wound must pass Ld test or die)
Bolt of Tzeentch (24", S8, AP1, Assault 1)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Boon of Mutation (Gift of Chaos, turns an enemy model into Chaos Spawn)
Icon (Teleport Homer)
Herald of Nurgle (pst:speeder)
WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 5, W: 2, I: 3, A: 2
Independent Character
Feel no Pain
Slow and Purposeful
Plaguesword (Always wound on 4+ in combat)
Choose up to one:
Palanquin of Nurgle (+1 A, +1 W)
Choose up to three:
Cloud of Flies (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Noxious Touch (Always wound on 2+)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit in the shooting phase)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Icon (Teleport Homer)
Herald of Slaanesh (pts:speeder)
WS: 5, BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 7, A: 4, Ld: 10
Independent Character
Rending
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Choose up to one:
Mount of Slaanesh (+1 A, Cavalry)
Chariot of Slaanesh (+2 A, +3 W, 4+ Sv, no longer an Independent Character)
Choose up to three:
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Transfixing Gaze (One model in base to base has -1 attack)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", requires hit roll, only usable
once per unit per turn)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Icon (Teleport Homer)
About the special hq choices:
All the special greaters are 300ish pts.
Kugath, special GUO with +1w and +1a, pretty much all the nurgle gifts (greater and herald) + shoots ordnace1 ap2 large blast that wounds on 4+ and on a 4+ at the beginning of your turn you deepstrike one nurgling base within 12" of the guy.
Fateweaver, special LoC, a bit whimsier than normal (-1 to almost all stats). Knows pretty much every tzeentch gifts (greater & herald) and provides a fortun to daemons within 6". He must take a ld test if he takes a wound of he dies (with ld9).
3rd guy is Skarbrand, The Exiled One
WS: 10, BS: 0, S: 8, T: 6, W: 4, I: 5, A: 6
Monstrous Creature
Unique
Fleet
Furious Charge
Rage Embodied (All units, friend or foe, within 24" must reroll failed hits in close combat)
Bellow of Endless Fury (Breath of Chaos, Instrument of Chaos)
The special heralds are:
The Masque (pts:2xspeeder)
WS: 5, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 7, A: 4
Independent Character
Unique
Fleet
Rending
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", only usable once per unit per turn)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)
Eternal Dance (Can use Pavane of Slaanesh three times a turn)
Epidemius (pts:as previous + little extra)
WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 5, W: 3, I: 3, A: 3
Independent Character
Unique
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Plaguesword (Always wound on 4+ in combat)
Cloud of Flies (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit with Ap- in the shooting phase)
The Tally of Pestilence (Keep track of casualties caused by Nurgle units from both players.
While Epidemius is alive, if there are 5-9 kills, plagueswords wound on 3+. If there are 10-14
kills, all Nurgle units have Noxious Touch. If there are 15-19 kills, Nurgle units with Feel no
Pain work on a 3+. If there are 20+ kills, all Nurgle units have power weapons. Effects are
cumulative)
The Bluescribes (pts:as previous + little extra)
WS: 2, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 3
Independent Character
Jump Troop
Unique
Master of Sorcery (Can fire one additional weapon per shooting phase)
We Are Legion (Can split fire and charge a different unit that you shot at)
Bolt of Tzeentch (24", S8, AP1, Assault 1)
Boon of Mutation (Gift of Chaos, turns an enemy model into Chaos Spawn)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", only usable once per unit per turn)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit in the shooting phase)
Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)
Watch This! (When firing twice with Master of Sorcery, roll a d6. On 4-6, you may fire your
second, different, attack as normal. On a 1-3, you must use the same attack as you used the
first time this turn)
Skulltaker (pts:previous + little extra)
WS: 7, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 4, W: 2, I: 5, A: 4
Independent Character
Unique
Furious Charge
Hellblade (Power weapon)
Blessing of the Blood God (2+ save against psychic powers and force weapons)
Fury of Khorne (Rending)
Skulls for the Skull Throne! (Rends on 4+ rather than a 6, all unsaved rending wounds cause
Instant Death)
Choose up to one:
Juggernaut of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv)
Chariot of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +2 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv, no longer an IC
---
Regarding the normal troops, pretty much everything has ld 10 and 5+ inv (bloodcrushers have power armor tzeentch stuff has improved inv save)
Most unit upgrades are relatively cheap, around 10-20 pts. The elite stuff have mostly options for upgrading one guy in the unit with extra cc ability or high strength shooting (with tzeentch).
Elites:
Fiends of Slaanesh (pts:2xmarine)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 5, T: 4, W: 2, I: 5, A: 5
Beast
Rending
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Flamers of Tzeentch (pts:2xmarine + extra)
WS: 2, BS: 4, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2
Jump Troop
Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Beasts of Nurgle (pts:same as previous)
WS: 3, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 5, W: 2, I: 2, A: d6
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Plagueswords (Always wound on 4+ in combat)
Bloodcrushers of Khorne (pts:a bit more than previous)
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 5, T: 5, W: 2, I: 4, A: 3
Furious Charge
Beast
Hellblades (Power weapon)
---
Troops:
The basic troops have option of homers and instrument + possible cc boost for 1 model (or shooting boost to tzeentch like with flamers)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle (pts:marine)
WS: 3, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 5, W: 1, I: 2, A: 1
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Plagueswords (Always wound on 4+ in combat)
Daemonettes of Slaanesh (pts:a bit less than previous)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 6, A: 3
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Rending
Nurglings (a bit less than previous)
WS: 2, BS: 0, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 2, A: 3
Swarm
Bloodletters of Khorne (pts:a bit more than plaguebearers)
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2
Furious Charge
Hellblades (Power weapon)
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch 5-20 (pts:a bit more than the previous)
WS: 2, BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1
Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)
These have a cheap option for upgrading one model to Changeling
Unique
No stat change
Glamour of Tzeentch (Once each enemy shooting phase, may target an enemy
unit within 24". They may choose to not shoot that phase, or to take a Ld check. If they fail,
they must shoot all weapons at a friendly target of the Daemon player's choosing. If they
pass, they act normally. If they fail there are no targets, they do not shoot that turn as if they
choose not to shoot)
---
FA
small combat boosts available per unit except for furies
Seekers of Slaanesh (pts:same as horrors)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 6, A: 4
Cavalry
Rending
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Screamers of Tzeentch 3-12 (pts:a bit less than previous)
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2
Jetbikes
Warp Jaws (Melta Bombs)
Fleshhounds (pts:marine)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2
Beasts
Furious Charge
a bit more expensive option for - Keranak, Hound of Vengeance, upgrades one Fleshhound
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 5, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 3
Unique
Beast
Rending
Instrument of Chaos
Furious Charge
Squad gains Move Through Cover
Furies (pts:marine)
WS: 3, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2
Jump Infantry
---
HS:
Soul Grinder (pts:Vindicator with EA & Dozer Blade )
WS: 3, BS: 3, S: 6, Armor: 13/13/11, I: 3, A: 4
2 Dreadnought CCWs (attack bonus included)
Fleet
Immune to Stun and Shaken results
Harvester Cannon (24", S4, AP5, Assault 6)
Maw Cannon, 3 fire modes (1 default, 2 purchasable):
Vomit (Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1)
Upgrade Vomit to (for half a speeder each):
Tongue (24", S10, AP1, Assault 1)
or
Phlegm (36", S8, AP3, Assault 1, Large Blast)
Daemon Prince (pts:Master /w Storm bolter)
WS: 7, BS: 5, S: 5, T: 5, W: 4, I: 5, A: 4
Can get pretty expensive flight (think doubling up the points), some armor and extra str.
Can also get marks which do the same as in Codex: CSM, mostly around the same cost iirc.
If marked, can get some god specific gifts in the vein of herald/greater gifts. Mostly the shooting ones, altough slaneesh prince has option for hit'n'run and the poor man's lash. The gifts cost around 5-30 barring the flight.
4893
Post by: Blackheart666
this is pretty accurate from what I remember actrually looking at the book at a local GW store.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Uhh... Furies lost S5 and I5? Why take them at I3? Seriously?
Then there's this:
WS: 3, BS: 3, S: 6, Armor: 13/13/11, I: 3, A: 4
Why is it that an unbound Defiler, a daemon fuled by the power of the warp and enhanced with the iron skin gifted to it by man is somehow as skilled in close combat as a Guardsman? WS3 I3? I don't understand.
BYE
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Wait... sorry. I've answered my own question.
Why do Furies suck now? Because Furies aren't getting a new model... how could I be so silly to forget that...
BYE
2661
Post by: Tacobake
I am not big on the Tongue being only BS3. I think I would rather a BS5 Bolt of Change, if possible.
4655
Post by: tegeus-Cromis
Sounds crappy. Now I see why Stelek was complaining about them. Shouldn't psychic powers be a little better when used by actual warp entities? Would it have killed them to make BoC S9 or a melta weapon? No army should have to rely on S8 weapons and three expensive BS3 HS choices for AT/MC capability.
685
Post by: KiMonarrez
I had a glance at the codex last night (late night paint run to the local GW store), and I have to say, the pictures in the codex were theh suk. Every single one (that I saw) was a Blanche drawing. I actually like the occasional Blanche drawing in the codex... but not every single entry.
Blech.
5773
Post by: Rbb
I was psyched to start a daemon army until the actual rules started coming out. Not so sure now.
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
KiMonarrez wrote: Every single one (that I saw) was a Blanche drawing.
Yay! 
4600
Post by: DeathGod
Rbb wrote:I was psyched to start a daemon army until the actual rules started coming out. Not so sure now.
Don't doubt your original inclination. Start demons. They're poop-hot. In a good way. I'm visiting my best friend at the bunker, hangin' out with him at work all day (not much else to do when you're crashing on his couch and don't have your own ride) and have been able to run games, get my hands dirty with my beloved plaguebearers, and they are GREAT. Epidemius is AMAZING, as is Ku'gath (the special GUO). It's slow to get started, but once that tally gets rolling, its unstoppable. ounding on a 2+ ignoring armor saves with a 3+ feel no pain... and all I have to do is kill 20 models...
The demon prince options are awesome... god-specific abilities depending on your mark... psychic powers that aren't psychic powers... BS5 S5 AP3 assault 3 shots, yes please. WS7 S6 with wings running around absolutely wrecking things. All sorts of demonic goodness.
The other gods have nice abilities/rules/scary stuff as well, but I'm a Nurgle guy through and through, so I didn't playtest the other gods at all.
Demonic assault is pretty damn awesome. you split your force into 2 halves (as equal in number of units as possible), and pray to the gods. Choose one of the 2 halves, on a roll of a 3-6 you get the half you want, on a 1-2 you get the other half. The half that doesnt show on turn 1 roll for reserves as normal after that. Give your opponent a turn to do as much damage as they can, then you get to wreck their world.
It's 3 am and I'm rambling now, so off to bed... but the demons get an A+ in my book.
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Post by: Orlanth
Something to note, unlike with nid Rippers Nurgling swarms keep their immunity to instant death.
This plus the swarm cover bonus and low prices turns them into an excellent (extra smelly) tarpit unit.
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Post by: Orlanth
According to staff member who have read the book (I only got a small look) you cannot mix Codex Daemons with the Codex CSM, both armies are seperate. So no Bloodthirsters in World Eater armies, et al just 'greater daemons'.
Also there are no cultist options in the book. For all the daemon add ons thyey offer, as a whole the codex just takes away background themed armies from the game.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
I'm not gonna start them as a standalone army, but a little nurgel stuff here and there and a souldgrinder would make a nice addition to my apocalypse Death Guard Force.
3572
Post by: Zoned
About the anti-tank issue:
I would like to emphasize that the Daemon "psychic powers" are a little better than the CSM ones since they're true shooting attacks and so can't be stopped by Psychic Hoods, Runes of Warding, bad dice rolls...etc.
Obviously big tanks like Leman Russes and Land Raiders will be a problem but there are alot of MCs in the army, and many of them fly (and Deepstrike,) which I think provide enough solutions. Don't forget about the Screamers, either.
For the skimmers, I think Str 8 shots (available on the Lords of Change, Daemon Princes, and Horror units) will suffice. Not to mention the Str 10 phlegm attack.
The only real problem is the Monolith, which will bone most Daemon armies. Reminds me of pre-2008 Orks - our weapons are useless, USELESS I TELL YOU! I'm going to wait until 5th comes out, though, before I make any final judgements. Good gaming!
Zoned
6500
Post by: MinMax
Tongue's really the only way to hurt the Monolith. In Fourth Edition, that Pens on a 4+. In Fifth Edition, if the rumours are true, it Glances on a 4, Pens on a 5+, but adds +1 to the single damage table.
4655
Post by: tegeus-Cromis
Zoned: I would like to emphasize that the Daemon "psychic powers" are a little better than the CSM ones since they're true shooting attacks and so can't be stopped by Psychic Hoods, Runes of Warding, bad dice rolls...etc.
Sure, but no army relies on psychic powers for AT anyway. I know I compared the Daemon's BoC etc. with the CSM powers, and on that point you're right, it does make a kind of sense, but it doesn't change the fact that BoC is hardly a good source of AT. Compare the Daemon BoC with the CSM BoC and it's great. Compare it with a lascannon. . . uh, not so much.
Obviously big tanks like Leman Russes and Land Raiders will be a problem but there are alot of MCs in the army, and many of them fly (and Deepstrike,) which I think provide enough solutions. Don't forget about the Screamers, either.
For the skimmers, I think Str 8 shots (available on the Lords of Change, Daemon Princes, and Horror units) will suffice. Not to mention the Str 10 phlegm attack.
Now if only there was a way to get those "many" MCs and the S10 tongue attack into the same list.
5926
Post by: Stingray_tm
Ah, that Daemons would Deep Strike in Round 1, was new to me.
Now my plan to use the rules for Daemons to represent a full deep striking Tyranid swarm is revitalized.
HQ:
winged close combat Hive Tyrant --> Bloodthirster (if he can fly. It sounds strange to me, that a model with Wings can't fly...) or Lord of Change (so the Tyrant has new psychic abilites)
Dakkafex --> Keeper of Secrets
Elite:
Ravener --> Bloodcrusher
Gargoyles --> Flamers
Troops:
Genestealers --> Daemonettes or Bloodletters
Termagaunts --> Horrors
Rippers --> Nurglings
Fast Attack:
Hormagaunts --> Fleshhounds
Heavy Support:
CC Carnifex --> Daemon Prince
Shooty Fex --> Soulgrinder
The invulnerable save represents a strong psychic synapse force field generated by the swarm.
Well, or maybe not.
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah...
I still don't get it?
Why is this not compatable with Codex CSM?
Maybe they are planning to do Codex world eaters Codex DeathGuard in WhiteDwarf...
Like they did the Blood angles Codex...
I dunno...
I've said it before where is that SoulGrinder coming from??? where does he reload his ammo? Where does he get his defiler parts?
if this is a deamon incurrsion it's funny that he's the only deamon that's once been part of a CSM force... where's the CSMs and such that got consumed by the warp...
Also Won't it be confusing when a CSM force fights a Deamon force...
eg if i play a deamon army with my CSM plague marines:
my plague bearers will be lesser deamons while my opponents PlagueBearers will be PlagueBearers?
my greater deamon wont count as a GUO where his will and to all purposes kick mine around the table (slowly)...?
that sux... alot... and is stupid...
When the CSM codex came out we were told by JJ not to worry about having CSM Lesser deamons that in a few months our deamons were coming? when?... where? we will still be waiting... after this codex comes out... I guess we will wait some more...
Gutted...
EDIT:
I just printed out every thing in the orignal post... 6 pages... Couldn't this have been included in the CSM codex..
with a deamon only list that has special deamon only characters and deep striking rules?
I will buy the codex... but i doubt i'll like it... how much do you think this has been playtested with actual real world players?
Isn't customer satisfaction worth anything?
Panic
yeah...
3572
Post by: Zoned
To Panic:
I dunno, the split between the CSMs and Daemons reminds of the old split between Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings in 5th edition WHFB. Back in the day, those two armies didn't exist, they were simply part of the Undead army. So you had Vampires running around, supported by Mummy units, Skeleton Chariots and so on.
As I recall, the idea was there is simply so much diversity to the Undead, you could really make two themed armies from the parent list that had their own play style, history, and so on. I don't really remember too much ghashing of the teeth back when that split happened, at certainly most players seemed happy with the two lists.
I feel the same way about the current CSM book. It's not Codex: Chaos, it's Codex: Chaos SPACE MARINES. So the emphasis should be put on the Marines, their history, their rules...etc. The Daemon takes a back seat. Codex Daemons is all about Warp Creatures, so these versions will naturally be more powerful than the enslaved ones the CSM use. I think we can all agree they have a very different play style and feel than the CSMs, as well.
Hope that helps!
Zoned
3572
Post by: Zoned
To T-C
I've been looking at a store copy and playing around with a list. Here's how it looks:
1700pts
HQ
Lord of Change x 2 (Flying MC, BS 5 BoC)
Troops
10 Plaguebearers w/ Icon x 2 (Anchor units for the other Daemons to summon around.)
5 Horrors, BoC x 2 (Chaos Lord's summary omits the fact that Horrors can take a BoC for cheap...it's only BS 3, but it helps.)
Heavy Support
Daemon Prince w/ Wings x 2
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
I've got points left over that can fit about 15 Daemonettes (like the fleet.) Maybe I'll fit in 12 and make the DPs Str 6. Gotta take another look at the codex for exact point values.
So 2 BS 5 BoC, 2 BS 3 BoC, 1 BS 3 Str 10 phlegm.
4 Flying MCs.
20 T 5 , 5+ invul, FNP troops. Note that they have true T 5, so will be really hard to wipe out when they Deep Strike in your line Turn 1.
A bunch of fleeting Daemonettes. Fragile, but hopefully they'll take part of a second wave that can fleet into combat with units tied up by one of the 4 flying MCs.
Zoned
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah...
I agree to some extent... with splitting the list.
But there is a very clear area of cross over the Deamons that should be in both lists....
There are no generic lesser deamon models...
There is no generic greater deamon model...
In Codex CSM it shows plague bearers being used a lesser deamons? And you also have greater deamon models with wings, yet no option of flight...
a raging Blood letter and a plaguebearer... In Codex CSM there are both equals... lesser deamons...
In how many other Codex are you told to use models as counts as?
Why should CSM deamons be less powerful, when a chaos Lord preys to his God, why would the God send only weaker basic deamons? When a marked CSM sacfifices himself to his God, he is replaced by a generic basic greater deamon (for which there is no model... you have to use a counts as)
Just doesn't seem well thought out... the faults are glareing obvious...
EDIT:
I think it would have been better not to offer up the lesser deamons and greater deamons that exist in codex CSM amd just drop them from the list completely... and in white dwarf have JJ explain they are getting their own codex.
then you have you two lists Codex Deamons and Codex CSM.
panic...
yeah...
3572
Post by: Zoned
To Panic - imagine if GW released Lesser Daemon models and said you had to use them in CSM armies to be WYSIWYG. All you older Chaos players have to buy these new models to be WYSIWYG. All those Daemon models you already own? Can't use 'em.
There would be an uproar.
If GW released Lesser Daemon and said you could also use your existing Daemons as Lesser Daemons, how many new Lesser Daemons would they sell? I mean, barring fantastic sculpts and/or amazingly low prices, how many Chaos players are going to shell out money for these models when they already have models they can use perfectly well?
As a tip, I've seen Chaos players put Woof Elf Dryads on round bases, give 'em a gnarly paint scheme, and use them as Lesser Daemons. The branches look like tendrils of warp energy. Very cool.
No Flight on Greater Daemons was a deliberate choice, I'm sure. If they had flight, everyone would take them (barring ridiculous points cost.) Why does every Chaos Space Marine army have flying Greater Daemons in them as staples? I thought this codex was about Chaos Marines?
From a fluff standpoint, I can see why CSM daemons would be less powerful than true Daemons. When Daemons attack on their own, they need special circumstances (warp rift, massive chaos rituals...etc) to fuel their presence. CSMs don't always use these tools, which make it hard for their Daemons to reach the same level of power. Or, some of these Daemons are enslaved to the will of the mortal CSM, who deliberately keep their powers in check lest their allies turn on them. Only when they can feed off abundant Warp energy can Daemons reach their full potential, which is what the new Daemon codex represents.
I really can't see the 40-50 guys a typical 1500pt-1700pt CSM army representing a force that can generate the necessary conditions to summon full fledged Daemons. In an Apocalypsed sized force, maybe.
" EDIT:
I think it would have been better not to offer up the lesser deamons and greater deamons that exist in codex CSM amd just drop them from the list completely... and in white dwarf explain they are getting their own codex.
then you have you two lists Codex Deamons and Codex CSM."
I don't understand you edit...GW did exactly as you proposed. There are two lists, Codex Daemons and Codex CSM. If you don't like the generic Daemons in codex CSM, just don't use them! But by taking them out of codex CSM you make the players who don't want pure Daemon armies waste the models they spent money on. Even as is, you may feel they are a worthless unit in codex CSM (a debateable point,) but at least you could use them if you wanted. Taking the option out means I have guruanteed wasted my money.
Zoned
1898
Post by: cerebaton
Zoned - the point is Jervis implied that the two codices would be able to ally, giving chaos players hope that the fluff-nerf was only temporary. Now we know it isn't, I'm not surprised that people feel a little cheated.
3572
Post by: Zoned
Hmmm. I read that Standard Bearer article and it didn't seem to me like that's what JJ implied. I guess it could be interpreted that way, though.
Zoned
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Post by: CanadianGreenskinofKhorne
Im ocnvinced im taking Skulltaker. Opponents are gona cry when i start tearing up their leaders with him. Can't wait. Being a purist of the blood god, im playing all khorne. I was angry that my two world eater armies got nerfed. Now at least, my daemon bomb one will be better then ever. Bloodthirster+Skull Taker+Another herald= Marines (at least when they get a new book) crying.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
If CSM had full-power Daemons, then the CSM have less emphasis. Separating the two was a good thing, as the CSM list really does revolve around CSM.
Also, you can still take the two together in Apocalypse. 
Besides the rumor mill is very clear that GW will eventually do books for each of the 4 Chaos Powers.
So basically, Chaos players will be forced to pick and choose a theme, whether they're CSM, Daemons, or a particular power. To me, that's the same as Loyalists picking Blue, Red, Green, Black, or "grey".
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Orlanth wrote:According to staff member who have read the book (I only got a small look) you cannot mix Codex Daemons with the Codex CSM, both armies are seperate. So no Bloodthirsters in World Eater armies, et al just 'greater daemons'.
What's a "World Eater army"? I don't see any such thing in C: CSM.
Panic wrote:Why is this not compatable with Codex CSM?
It is! *
* In Apocalypse.
I've said it before where is that SoulGrinder coming from??? where does he reload his ammo? Where does he get his defiler parts?
From the Daemon Prince! The Daemon Prince is like a CSM sales rep. He goes and negotiates deals to sell Defiler parts to the daemons. They need the Daemon Prince to act as a broker because regular CSMs don't speak daemonese. * So the daemons get their Heavy Support choices and the Daemon Prince gets his commission (in daemon dollars).
* This is why CSMs can't summon daemons from the Daemon codex - the only daemons that can speak gothic are the Lesser Daemons and Greater Daemons. Unfortunately, since they spend so much time studying for their GSL (gothic as a second language) classes, aspiring bilingual daemons don't really have time to go to the daemon gym so they aren't as strong as other daemons - this is why they are often called "Lesser" Daemons. Sometimes an out-of-shape daemon who isn't careful about watching his calorie intake will get so fat he won't be able to fly anymore no matter how hard he flaps his daemon wings - such a daemon becomes known as a "Greater" Daemon due to his size.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Zoned: I like the idea of the Dryads as Daemons, but I was also thinking something even cheaper using spare greenstuff I have lying around: Brueste-Daemons! Like Daemonettes, but without all the claws and non-nipply parts.
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Post by: DeathGod
Couple thoughts as i continue to read some of the mouth-breathing no-thinking knee-jerk comments from people who haven't even read the book...
For whoever was asking...G.Demons DO fly... thirsters and birdies... the SPECIAL CHARACTER thirster doesn't fly, but fleets...
There's some nice fluff about how soul grinders are constructed, how they are coveted by demons to enter the corporial universe with because of how much more durable they are then flesh, and about the oaths and bindings a soul grinder demon has to go through to get its massive metal body.
About there not being specific models for lesser GDemons and LDemons... umm... Belikor, a wingless balrog, converted giant, converted dragon, I could go on. Its a hobby of imagination, use it.
Now, as for the compatibility of C:demons and C: CSM... I'm an age-old tried and true devotee of Nurgle. I've been playing Death guard since before they were good. My 3rd ed. DG lists always included Plaguebearers, and often a GUO. That being said, the new C: CSM is NOT C eath guard, or Codex: World Eaters, etc. The new C:demons is NOT C:Fix-the-Old- CSM-List-so-People-Will-Quit-Bitching. Was I bummed that plaguebearers and my poop god are gone from my Death guard (for the time being at least, depending on the afore-mentioned Legion books)? You bet your ass. But to put plaguebearers IN a death guard list would be so unbelievably broken, it would be unbelievable. SO... broken...
I for one applaud the way they have gone with C emons. For starters, all the griping about NOT being compatible with C: CSM would turn into even MORE, LOUDER griping about how broken and overpowered Chaos is with the specific demons mingled in with cult armies. It would be recoculous. The demons book has a TON of character, is a list that is both challenging and powerful, and is just a HELL of a lot of fun to play.
Poopbuckets, I exhausted-rambled again... I need to stop posting after a 14 hour day at the bunker...
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
DeathGod wrote:Its a hobby of imagination, use it.
I tried to, but they took away my army list. And then they took away my bitz.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
JohnHwangDD wrote:Besides the rumor mill is very clear that GW will eventually do books for each of the 4 Chaos Powers.
Yeah, I heard it's coming out right after Codex: Dark Eldar and Codex: Alienhunters.
They already did books for each of the 4 Chaos Powers, JohnHwang. And by "books" I mean "datasheets". Enjoyjoy!
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Post by: Techboss
Here is my take on a couple of the issues that have been brought up in this thread:
Undead being split is the same as Chaos being split
I disagree with this because the core units for Undead are still there. If we look at Tomb Kings vs Vampire Counts (I haven't seen newest edition), they have the same basic "stuff" in each army. TK gets more ranged combat, while VC gets heavier armor and more beat stick characters.
Skeletons = Skeletons
Tomb Guard = Grave Guard
Carrion = Fellbats
Whatever Swarm = Bat Swarm
Mounted Heavy Calvary = Mounted Heavy Calvary
Tomb Priest ability = Raise Dead
Chariots ~= Black Couch
All the basic units and abilities are there. The only real difference is TK can't create new skeleton units or expand beyond it's initial unit size. The army, however, can shoot and has garaunteed magic, which makes up for it. If I were an Undead player, I wouldn't feel too bad because the core of my army didn't change. I may be wrong as it heavily depends on the previous incantation of undead. Loosing a couple mummy models isn't as bad as loosing 1/2 your army to a rules change.
Removing Deamons from Chaos has fundamentally changed how the army operates and removed a lot of flavor. My Khorne army has fundamentally changed in how it operates because 1/3 of it became useless with the generic deamon rules. I also now have a THIRD model design for Bloodletters, which looks beyond aweful to me. Let's look at my Khorne army under the new codecies.
Under CSM:
Deamon Prince = Deamon Prince
Berzerkers = Berserkers
Bloodletters = Generic lesser deamon
Fleshhounds = Generic lesser deamon
Bloodthirster = Generic greater deamon
Dreadnaught = Gigantic waste of points Dreadnaught
Under Deamos:
Deamon Prince = Deamon Prince
Berzerkers = Nothing
Bloodletters = Bloodletters
Fleshhounds = Fleshhounds
Bloodthirster = Bloodthirster
Dreadnaught = Nothing
As you can see 1/3 of my army becomes junk/useless if I play under CSM and 2/3 of it is scrap if I played under Deamons. This is a fundamental problem and really chaps my ass.
Chaos & Deamons = Guard, Space Marines & Deamonhunters
This either shows a complete lack of understanding on the state of the game or needs further explaination. I CANNOT ALLY DEAMONS WITH CSM and therefore the above is LIE. The only explaination would be if they are going to make the Inquisition stand alone in the future. I bet is they won't so they can continue to sell Grey Knight models to Guard and SM players. In which case GW is being two faced.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Techboss wrote:
Under CSM:
Deamon Prince = Deamon Prince
Berzerkers = Berserkers
Bloodletters = Generic lesser deamon
Fleshhounds = Generic lesser deamon
Bloodthirster = Generic greater deamon
Dreadnaught = Gigantic waste of points Dreadnaught
As you can see 1/3 of my army becomes junk/useless if I play under CSM and 2/3 of it is scrap if I played under Deamons.
I CANNOT ALLY DEAMONS WITH CSM
Looks like your army plays just fine under CSM Codex.
As I can see, every model maps to the CSM Codex. You just don't have so many uber speshul roolz. But then, if you were even a halfway decent player and built your army around Fluff for Knorne, you wouldn't need those special rules to play well, right?
It you want uber Daemons with CSM, that's what Apocalypse is for.
Seriously, you're just going to have to wait for Codex: World Eaters to appear in 2010 / 2011 for you to play full-power Berzerkers with full-power Daemons. Until the, you're just going to have to suck it up.
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Post by: tegeus-Cromis
JHDD, no matter how many times I read your posts, I can never figure out what exactly you're trying to achieve. "Until the, you're just going to have to suck it up"--do you imagine that anyone isn't aware of this? Of course all we can do is suck it up and wait for change (or write house rules). Everyone knows this. It is precisely why people like to complain. It's all that's left to them.
BTW, you're full of it if you if you seriously think a Khornate CSM army is viable.
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Post by: mortal888
Why isn't Belakor in the new codex? It's a sweet model and would make a great cross-over 40k/Fantasy. I'll just have to use him for a Khorn Prince if they don't make rules for him but he really should be a special character.
Also, I love the fact that there's an undivided greater demon that causes mass havoc. I've always wanted a Greater Demon of Cthulhu!
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Post by: Frazzled
mortal888 wrote:Why isn't Belakor in the new codex? It's a sweet model and would make a great cross-over 40k/Fantasy. I'll just have to use him for a Khorn Prince if they don't make rules for him but he really should be a special character.
Also, I love the fact that there's an undivided greater demon that causes mass havoc. I've always wanted a Greater Demon of Cthulhu!
I am definitely using Belakor as such.
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Post by: mortal888
It's the perfect set-up for a White Dwarf article.
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Post by: Noisy_Marine
On CSM and generic demons:
The whole thing seems like a cop out to me. Even the name "generic lesser demon" is bland. It's like GW was trying to think of the most boring thing possible to replace named demons so that everyone would want the demon codex. And frankly, I don't care if demons take the focus away from CSM. CSM and demons go TOGETHER! Just like Hordes of Chaos and Fantasy Demons go together. See, all of chaos goes together because it's CHAOS. You're supposed to be able to mix stuff up - or that's why I was first attracted to it.
Now it's just marine list/ demon list. Oh, but the marine list has token demons that almost no one uses. Yay!
On God Specific Codices:
Who cares if they write them. The quality of writing will be the same as it is in C: CSM and C emons. And there will be more Blanche pictures.
On John Blanche:
I actually like his pictures in the Vampire book. But the demon pictures in C: CSM look like something a child drew. I swear I saw some of those 'demons' on Sesame Street.
On Belakor:
They are discontinuing the model so ha ha you can't use it. Sucker.
5655
Post by: mortal888
Poopie. Khorn demon it is then.....
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Post by: Stelek
tegeus-Cromis wrote:Sounds crappy. Now I see why Stelek was complaining about them. Shouldn't psychic powers be a little better when used by actual warp entities? Would it have killed them to make BoC S9 or a melta weapon? No army should have to rely on S8 weapons and three expensive BS3 HS choices for AT/MC capability.
Well thank goodness someone else posted it, so I can comment freely.
Actually what most people rely on are the BoC off the Tzeentch Heralds (2 shots per turn @ BS4).
Sadly if you bring the HQ's to kill my tanks...and I kill just your 2 or 4 Heralds, holy crap it better not be a KP mission cause if it is those 6 or 9 or 12 points you lost are a handicap.
If you don't bring the chariot, you die to light weapons and if you bring a large unit of demons to 'protect' you...you eat the templates. If you do bring the chariot (or don't, and don't bring a unit along as a bodyguard), you die to light/heavy weapons (since you can't join units anymore--or are just a big fat target with crap T and crap W).
If you think of them as the suicide Shaso, you aren't far off. Sadly, they cost alot of points, cost you MC slots, and without vehicles on the board kill a marine a turn. YAY!
Everything else is vehicle based, costs you alot of points, cost you MC slots, and if you think a DS defiler is gonna solve your problem...when it gets blown up, don't cry about it.
Anything mobile just owns this army. My mech Eldar took some serious losses. Then I ran through the army with my seer council. It wasn't even a fun game.
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Post by: Stelek
tegeus-Cromis wrote:BTW, you're full of it if you if you seriously think a Khornate CSM army is viable.
What?! Khorne is the win!
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Post by: smart_alex
I already looked at the codex. They have it at MLGS. I was not very impressed
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Post by: CanadianGreenskinofKhorne
The thing that irritates me the most about chaos is the lack of effort they put in fluff. Now two bloodthirsters can lead a horde of daemonettes. Love to see that battle. Two embodiments of death and destruction with a bunch of warped cheerleaders running around.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Can't take them as allies?
Codex = Waste of time.
I look forward to buing it and the WFB Daemon books to farm for ideas for our own Chaos Codex, one that A). Doesn't suck, B). Contains non-generic forces, C). Doesn't suck and D). Allowes for Legions.
BYE
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Techboss wrote:As you can see 1/3 of my army becomes junk/useless if I play under CSM and 2/3 of it is scrap if I played under Deamons. This is a fundamental problem and really chaps my ass.
Well there's an simple solution to that. Why not expand your existing collection? With only a few additional models you could experience the best of both worlds with a Chaos Space Marines army and a Chaos Daemons army! And don't forget you can still field both armies at the same time in large games using the Apocalypse supplement! To get started simply stop by your local Games Workshop Hobby Center or visit the Games Workshop Online Store at http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us - there you'll find everything you need including models, rules, and hobby supplies! It's your one-stop shopping destination for all your Games Workshop hobby needs! So what are you waiting for? The Ruinous Powers compel you!
Noisy_Marine wrote:Who cares if they write them. The quality of writing will be the same as it is in C: CSM and C emons.
I love how you can't even write C aemons without an Ork popping up to laugh at the pure idiocy of it. In fact from now on I shall simply refer to the codex as C:Hahahaemons.
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Post by: winterman
I love how you can't even write Caemons without an Ork popping up to laugh at the pure idiocy of it. In fact from now on I shall simply refer to the codex as C:Hahahaemons.
Sigged!
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Post by: Morskul
H.B.M.C. wrote:Can't take them as allies?
Codex = Waste of time.
I look forward to buing it and the WFB Daemon books to farm for ideas for our own Chaos Codex, one that A). Doesn't suck, B). Contains non-generic forces, C). Doesn't suck and D). Allowes for Legions.
BYE
I belive a Codex containing all of the above was released in 2003... I agree with your sentiment on the new CSM and Daemon Codexes, if you can't ally between the two lists they are wholly pointless and are a slap in the face to all the people who have a combined list that is no longer fun to play.
6035
Post by: Techboss
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Well there's an simple solution to that. Why not expand your existing collection? With only a few additional models you could experience the best of both worlds with a Chaos Space Marines army and a Chaos Daemons army! And don't forget you can still field both armies at the same time in large games using the Apocalypse supplement! To get started simply stop by your local Games Workshop Hobby Center or visit the Games Workshop Online Store at http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us - there you'll find everything you need including models, rules, and hobby supplies! It's your one-stop shopping destination for all your Games Workshop hobby needs! So what are you waiting for? The Ruinous Powers compel you!
I hope your being sarcastic
844
Post by: stonefox
It will be a sad day when Dakka is forced to use emoticons and the stupid /sarcasm tags.
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah...
<sarcasm> I like the stupid tags </sarcasm>
Abadabadoobaddon makes me laugh but through all that had made some good points though!
separteing your marines from you deamons: in the end it's really the only real option. other than looking stupid...
for me it isn't that bad i'll drop my 30 plaguebearers and GUO from my marine list.
and later on consider adding to that as the statrtining core of a daemon list... or i'll ebay them off...
Thirsters leading deamonettes!!!
yeah the Pantheon of Chaos Gods of idea makes me sick! they are meant to hate each others guts and stab each other in the back... they don't call them fickel for nothing...
Panic
yeah...
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Post by: malfred
Techboss wrote:Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Well there's an simple solution to that. Why not expand your existing collection? With only a few additional models you could experience the best of both worlds with a Chaos Space Marines army and a Chaos Daemons army! And don't forget you can still field both armies at the same time in large games using the Apocalypse supplement! To get started simply stop by your local Games Workshop Hobby Center or visit the Games Workshop Online Store at http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us - there you'll find everything you need including models, rules, and hobby supplies! It's your one-stop shopping destination for all your Games Workshop hobby needs! So what are you waiting for? The Ruinous Powers compel you!
I hope your being sarcastic
Dude. Abba is always serious....
5655
Post by: mortal888
Is it just me or do they consistently make horrors worthless in every instance in 40k? The last horrors had an 18" worthless shot and two wounds, suck in HTH. The new horrors have a worthless 18" shot, 1 wound, a new power that will never actually work since everything in the game with a decent gun has a high leadership, and sucks in HTH.
And I need the horrors for my fantasy list, so it's the only thing that won't transfer to my 40k games.  Why would they make everything else Tzeentch so cool, but the main unit suck so bad?
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Post by: George Spiggott
H.B.M.C. wrote:Can't take them as allies?
Codex = Waste of time.
You can ally them in Armageddon, just like Marines and Imperial Guard (the Inquisition book(s) will follow this format when thy are redone). Suck it up kids this is the future of 40k. :(
5478
Post by: Panic
mortal888 wrote:Why would they make everything else Tzeentch so cool, but the main unit suck so bad?
yeah...
game balance i guess....
I also hate that codex: stock clearance is everyones weak answer to other Codex shortcomings and 40ks future...
panic
yeah...
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Noisy_Marine wrote:Who cares if they write them. The quality of writing will be the same as it is in C: CSM and C emons.
I love how you can't even write C aemons without an Ork popping up to laugh at the pure idiocy of it. In fact from now on I shall simply refer to the codex as C:Hahahaemons.
You rule Abadaabadoobaddon.
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Post by: gorgon
An interesting phenomenon with the daemon codex is how the ally question is pretty much the first thing people ask about. Sometimes it's followed by questions about cultists/mutants/etc. GW sure has a good read on what its customers want, huh? 
IMO, GW completely misread their daemons sales data. And their response to that misread has created a lot of questions in my mind.
- While it's a great cross-sell opportunity and a welcome release on the WFB side, are separate all-daemon armies really what 40K players want?
- Are generic, non-marked lesser daemons the only alternative and an acceptable substitute in CSM armies?
- Do 40K players want an army that looks almost identical to a WFB army?
- A new "daemonbomb" may be the only design route given that the units and miniatures have already been dictated to them, but can the designers balance an all-deep striking army?
- Jervis tends to err on the side of caution, but will a daemon army that's even slightly underpowered take root?
I dunno. It could be that whatever they sell on the 40K side is gravy, so they don't really care. *shrug* It's hard to know exactly what the business strategy is unless you're an insider, I suppose.
I do know one thing...if you need any proof of how the finance types are steering the ship, look at WHICH lesser daemons are being released in plastic. They mysteriously correspond to the two units that had the strongest rules, and thus the most sales...
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Post by: Techboss
gorgon wrote:An interesting phenomenon with the daemon codex is how the ally question is pretty much the first thing people ask about. Sometimes it's followed by questions about cultists/mutants/etc. GW sure has a good read on what its customers want, huh?
My guess is the marketing people looked at Chaos army comps and decided that since they had demons and CSM, that they could split the army giving/forcing the player to have two armies. As an example, my Khorne army is roughly 50/50 demons and CSM at 2000 points. By splitting the force, I now have two 1000 point armies. This sounds good except I don't have enough points to play either army at 2000 points. My options with the army(s) at this point are:
1 - Ebay them both
2 - Build up the CSM side
3 - Build up the Demon side
4 - Build up both sides
If money and painting time is no object, then option 4 is probably acceptable. However, most people are already grumpy about GW prices and the time required to paint an army. People were hoping that option 4 would be given to them through Allie rules with the Demon Codex. This didn't happen, so option 4 is basically not going to happen unless your playing Apoc or are a huge fan.
Option 3 means I have to allow 1000 points of SMs to collect dust because they can't be fielded in a Demon army. Additionally, the Demon army will be a huge one trick pony like drop troops. If your opponent's army comp or familiarity with droop troops is poor, then you'll rape them. If they know the counter, then the Demon player will probably loose. Lack of versitility, loss of models and my general dislike for the new demon models rule out this option.
Option 2 is the only option that allows me to use all my models. Even though lesser demons are junk, I can still put them on the table and won't "loose" the models. CSM are also much more versitile in tactics and I like the models. Therefore Demons gets pushed to the points "filler" role for my army.
Player - "I want to play CSM and faction demons in the same army"
GW - "Here is CSM and generic demons. We'll release a faction demons later."
Player - "Ok, but I want faction demons in my CSM"
GW - "Behold the glory that is the Demon Codex. It has faction demons and is a stand alone army."
Player - "Can I use faction demons and CSM together?"
GW - "No, but you have two distinct and unique armies!!!"
Player - "gtfo, I'm going to play Warmachine"
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
It's one of the two ways GW does new releases. They will always either:
1. Not release a new model for the unit and nerf it.
2. Realise they cannot nerf the unit without angering people, so release new models for that unit that are so completely different to the previous ones that they'll look funny when mixed (ref. Stealth Suits anyone?).
BYE
844
Post by: stonefox
Bomb disposal stealth suits are way better than megaman stealth suits.
1656
Post by: smart_alex
the funny thing is that they said they made it the way it is now because they wanted more fluff going to daemons as the felt they were not getting all the attention that they deserved.
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Post by: Pariah Press
Well, it's true. Half of the old daemons from the original Realm of Chaos books didn't have rules representing them. I'm sure I'll be facing the same situation soon with my WHFB Chaos army. I'm a bit annoyed, but frankly it gives me the excuse I've been looking for to pick up some models I'd always wanted. I couldn't justify it with the 4000 points I already owned. The fact that I can now use my daemons in 40K without having to buy a bunch of spikey marines is nice.
Gawd, I am SUCH a fanboy!
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Isn't it amazing how everyone's opinions on demons change so dramatically when they can't move + assault on the turn they get summoned or deepstrike in.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Pariah Press wrote:The fact that I can now use my daemons in 40K without having to buy a bunch of spikey marines is nice.
You know, you're absolutely right! With the old Chaos Codex, with its limitless options, vast armory, and countless unit entries, I just felt so compelled to do things like taking both Demons and Marines in the same army. Now, with two books with far fewer options each, I'm free to choose, err, forced to field only one force at a time!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
gorgon wrote:IMO, GW completely misread their daemons sales data.
- are separate all-daemon armies really what 40K players want?
- Are generic, non-marked lesser daemons the only alternative and an acceptable substitute in CSM armies?
- Do 40K players want an army that looks almost identical to a WFB army?
- A new "daemonbomb" may be the only design route given that the units and miniatures have already been dictated to them, but can the designers balance an all-deep striking army?
- Jervis tends to err on the side of caution, but will a daemon army that's even slightly underpowered take root?
No, they read their sales data correctly: (inexpensive 40k Rending) Daemonettes and (underpriced 40k PW) Bloodletters sell *very* well, well enough to be done in plastic.
- Nobody knows if all-Daemon armies are what's wanted until they become available as an option. Certainly, the old Daemonbomb armies hint this to be the case for Daemonettes and/or Bloodletters when grossly underpriced for their stats and abilities.
- Yes, generic Daemons are the only appropriate solution within a CSM army that intends to keep the focus on the CSM instead of having the Daemons overshadow them. By design, Daemons need to be less sexy than a basic CSM, so that stupid, stupid thick as a plank 40k players understand that focus is on the CSM.
- from the beginning, 40k armies have looked similar to WFB armies. Hence, Space Elves (Eldar), Space Orcs, and Space Dwarves (Squats). Not to mention the tremendous overlap when 40k was created as a Fantasy offshoot. Thankfully, 40k has developed to differentiate itself.
- I'm pretty sure the new Daemonbomb will play as the designers intended, with the power level that was intended, given their experience with C: CSM.
- Whether players like it is another thing. I'm sure most ex- CSM players will throw their arms up, how they've been nerfed into oblivion, etc. Cooler heads will probably be fine with it. Particularly once 40k5 and C: SM are released.
Techboss wrote:My guess is the marketing people looked at Chaos army comps and decided that since they had demons and CSM, that they could split the army giving/forcing the player to have two armies.
As an example, my Khorne army is roughly 50/50 demons and CSM at 2000 points. By splitting the force, I now have two 1000 point armies.
4 - Build up both sides
Even though lesser demons are junk, I can still put them on the table and won't "loose" the models. CSM are also much more versitile in tactics and I like the models. Therefore Demons gets pushed to the points "filler" role for my army.
I would be surprised if marketing was behind the split in the Chaos Codices. I believe that this was primarily driven by the designers seeing that the 40k4 Codices had gotten out of control, and that they were running out of ways to take the game forward for players like Jervis' kid. Being able to split Chaos into CSM and Daemons to sell a 2nd Codex upfront, followed by 4 more Codices was just convenient smoke to blow up management's skirt.
In your case, you have a 2000 pt Khorne force. There is no need for you to split it.
GW would *love* for you to build this up into a 2000 pt CSM army backed by a 2000 pt Daemon army. Do it!
And this is the typical reaction for those who aren't made of money. Perhaps you aren't GW's target market?
Tho really, at the prices for the new Daemons, there's no excuse not to bulk up Daemonettes and Bloodletters like crazy. Wood Elves pay $35 for 12 Dryads ($3 each). GW could have charged $35 ($5 less than current) for 10 plastic Daemonettes or Bloodletters and still done fine. But the new pricing is $22 for 10 Daemons ($2 each). Any way you look at it, Daemon armies will be cheap if you use the "correct" cheap, plastic Daemons and avoid the expensive, crappy-looking Tzeentch and Nurgle stuff.
5164
Post by: Stelek
Voodoo Boyz wrote:Isn't it amazing how everyone's opinions on demons change so dramatically when they can't move + assault on the turn they get summoned or deepstrike in.
Yep!
(They suck, like I've been trying to say.)
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
It must be awfully terrible for Demon users to actually have to work to get their units into assault without getting shot to pieces first...just like the rest of us.
5536
Post by: lemurking23
I think 5th will give them more of a chance, being able to screen daemonettes and bloodletters behind plaguebearers will help a great deal.
The codex has a lot of beast/calvary units, so having that much speed is still quite nice. You can take a safer route and try to deepstrike on a flank or out of LOS and be able to get a charge off the next turn.
I still look forward to getting the codex and using them, but I am wary about the constant deepstrike, especially with the rumored 5th mishap table, but I suppose it'll make it more interesting, if not frustrating at times.
6500
Post by: MinMax
The 5th Edition Mishap Table only applies when you scatter off the table, or onto a piece of impassable terrain (When the unit would normally be destroyed).
On a 1, the unit is destroyed, as normal.
On a 2-3, the unit does not deploy during the game, but only counts as under half strength for victory points purposes.
On a 4-6, the player not controlling the deep-striking unit chooses where to deploy them, and does not roll for scatter. Dangerous terrain tests must be taken if the unit is placed into difficult/dangerous terrain.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Voodoo Boyz wrote:It must be awfully terrible for Demon users to actually have to work to get their units into assault without getting shot to pieces first...just like the rest of us.
While technically accurate, the sarcasm is uncalled for. Most deepstriking lists at the moment (trying to think of one that doesn't) have the ability to blast away when they deepstrike in. It sounds as if the demon forces will not have that ability (which also contrasts with how it works on Codex Renegadez). Except for Tzeentch and who cares about them? They don't have two wounds and really don't have a lot going for them...
The option to assault on deepstirking was a nice middle ground. Frankly it should have been carried forward into the demon codex. That and the option that 1/2 could actually start on the board. I see an all deepstriking only list as potentially getting tedious (and will keep my Nid counts as option for non-tourney games which are all my games at this point).
181
Post by: gorgon
JohnHwangDD wrote:No, they read their sales data correctly: (inexpensive 40k Rending) Daemonettes and (underpriced 40k PW) Bloodletters sell *very* well, well enough to be done in plastic.
- Nobody knows if all-Daemon armies are what's wanted until they become available as an option. Certainly, the old Daemonbomb armies hint this to be the case for Daemonettes and/or Bloodletters when grossly underpriced for their stats and abilities.
Voodoo Boyz wrote:Isn't it amazing how everyone's opinions on demons change so dramatically when they can't move + assault on the turn they get summoned or deepstrike in.
That's kind of my point. I think the popularity of this new codex will likely be dictated by the power level of the army. Certainly it's always a factor, but I can't shake the feeling that this one is going to be boom or bust, depending. But again, it may be that any 40K sales for this release are just gravy to GW anyway. *shrug*
Yes, generic Daemons are the only appropriate solution within a CSM army that intends to keep the focus on the CSM instead of having the Daemons overshadow them. By design, Daemons need to be less sexy than a basic CSM, so that stupid, stupid thick as a plank 40k players understand that focus is on the CSM.
I think simply granting the basic marks (+1A, +1T, etc.) and having lesser summoned daemons of Khorne, Nurgle, etc. would have ruffled fewer feathers, kept the focus on CSMs and not unbalanced anything. Obviously, they were going to make some wholesale changes to the CSM codex and upset some players. I think that particular one just went too far and stuck in some players' craws.
from the beginning, 40k armies have looked similar to WFB armies. Hence, Space Elves (Eldar), Space Orcs, and Space Dwarves (Squats). Not to mention the tremendous overlap when 40k was created as a Fantasy offshoot. Thankfully, 40k has developed to differentiate itself.
I agree...but chariots and musicians take it too far for me. I realize they may be magical warp chariot manifestation things, but the overall imagery is just too fantasy-based for me. I'd prefer a little more differentiation and something Daemon-focused but slightly closer to the old Daemonworld list in concept.
Whether players like it is another thing. I'm sure most ex-CSM players will throw their arms up, how they've been nerfed into oblivion, etc. Cooler heads will probably be fine with it. Particularly once 40k5 and C: SM are released.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Daemon book is more attractive to new players than existing CSM players who used daemons.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
gorgon wrote:I think the popularity of this new codex will likely be dictated by the power level of the army.
Totally agreed. It is too bad that the Daemon book is being released into a de-powering cycle. It would have been better if 40k5 and C: SM had been released prior to Daemons so that the new, lower power level were standard.
I think simply granting the basic marks (+1A, +1T, etc.) and having lesser summoned daemons of Khorne, Nurgle, etc. would have ruffled fewer feathers,
I would agree. But keep in mind that Marks would have been against Fantasy-like S3 T3 A2 Sv5+ models (because 40k is IG-based), rather than S4 T4 A2 models. Dropping the statline across the board probably wouldn't sit well, either. As it is, Lesser Daemons are CSM with 2 CCWs and an Inv save instead of PA. Not so bad when you think about it.
from the beginning, 40k armies have looked similar to WFB armies.
I agree...but chariots and musicians take it too far for me.
I don't even like the presence of Cavalry in the game.
Whether players like it is another thing. I'm sure most ex-CSM players will throw their arms up, how they've been nerfed into oblivion, etc. Cooler heads will probably be fine with it. Particularly once 40k5 and C: SM are released.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Daemon book is more attractive to new players than existing CSM players who used daemons.
I'm sure Daemons will be more attractive to new players, same as how the current CSM book is attractive to players who haven't depended on the crutches of brokenness in the previous book.
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
The bottom line is that GW cannot do anything right.
That isn't toally their fault, it's the fault of the players, too.
NO C: CSM codex would have been universally accepted and people who want to will always find something to b!tch about. The same people here, complaining about the current division would have complained about something with a different C: CSM codex.
Same for Daemons. Not everyone would have been happy with Daemons, regardless of whether they were in the C: CSM 'dex or their own.
Those of you who are complaining COULD NOT have done a BETTER job. You may think you could have... but you couldn't. It's not possible. Your codex would have had JUST as many people complaining... just about different things.
Personally, I hated the new C: CSM codex when it came out. Despised it.
I almost sold my Chaos army.
After playing a couple games with it, I realized how wrong I was. I like the changes (mostly).
I refuse to rule out Codex aemons until I've played it a few times.
So, we can't merge the 2, outside Apoc. Boo hoo.
Some people should be a little more introspective.
If everyone you encounter seems like an idiot... maybe THEY aren't the ones with the problems.
If everything that OTHERS do is wrong... Maybe they aren't the wrong ones.
Eric
506
Post by: the_trooper
I just miss my furies. Will someone think of the furies!?
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Post by: Stelek
MinMax wrote:The 5th Edition Mishap Table only applies when you scatter off the table, or onto a piece of impassable terrain (When the unit would normally be destroyed).
On a 1, the unit is destroyed, as normal.
On a 2-3, the unit does not deploy during the game, but only counts as under half strength for victory points purposes.
On a 4-6, the player not controlling the deep-striking unit chooses where to deploy them, and does not roll for scatter. Dangerous terrain tests must be taken if the unit is placed into difficult/dangerous terrain.
Don't forget that both enemy and friendly units are 'impassable terrain'.
So a mishap occurs often.
It's been subject to alot of abuse, really.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Huh? The 5th Ed rule is far more generous than destroying for full VPs every time. There is much less abuse this way.
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Post by: Stelek
No, I meant abuse by opponents.
I deep strike.
I place myself 1" away from you.
I miss. Darn.
Now I scatter into impassable terrain.
Here's hoping I get a unit in a corner!
So what I mean is, it makes for far more brazen deep strike play, since it's so much less likely to cost you a unit. From players who I'd normally call 'conservative' all of a sudden they're placing units willy nilly, without a care.
Tactic, or rule abuse? I only say it's rule abuse as I've never seen certain players place SW flamers in a spot where only 1 guy will live. Or a meltagun. It encourages risky behaviour. Problem is, it used to be if you had the balls you'd get into risk vs reward. Now, it's all reward as even if you scatter...who cares? I lose half a unit, or it goes into the trees on my back 9. Big woop.
See?
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Post by: WaltF4
JohnHwangDD wrote:Huh? The 5th Ed rule is far more generous than destroying for full VPs every time. There is much less abuse this way.
I didn't realize there was something to abuse with the 4th edition deepstrike rules. Did I miss something?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Perhaps the table will be corrected:
1 destroyed for double VPs
2-4 destroyed for full VPs
5 destroyed for half VPs
6 opponent places anywhere on the board; all models take armor save vs Instant Death; survivors are Entangled.
6500
Post by: MinMax
The Deep-Striking 'fix' is, of course, designed to make sure Daemons aren't screwed if they scatter. An all Deep-Striking army practically requires a safer kind of Deep-Striking, at least in the minds of some.
6127
Post by: CanadianGreenskinofKhorne
As long as my bloodthirster and skulltaker hit home, it wont really matter how many marines their are.....
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Post by: VermGho5t
JohnHwangDD wrote:gorgon wrote:
But the new pricing is $22 for 10 Daemons ($2 each).
Anyone else confused how you get $2 out of 22/10? Maybe I'm the only one...
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
VermGho5t wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:
But the new pricing is $22 for 10 Daemons ($2 each).
Anyone else confused how you get $2 out of 22/10? Maybe I'm the only one...
Um, simple division and rounding?
Y'know ... math.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Voodoo Boyz wrote:Isn't it amazing how everyone's opinions on demons change so dramatically when they can't move + assault on the turn they get summoned or deepstrike in.
Assault Troops that have to Deep Strike that can't Assault after landing are not useful, not as single choices within armies, and especially not as entire armies.
BYE
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Pariah Press wrote: Well, it's true. Half of the old daemons from the original Realm of Chaos books didn't have rules representing them.
Such as?
BYE
357
Post by: Angron
so how does daemonic summoning work? can they DS, move, and assault like in the past, or DS and just assault, or just DS and be sitting ducks?
5164
Post by: Stelek
DS + shooting gallery.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Pretty much.
BYE
958
Post by: mikhaila
The codex has a lot of interesting options. We were looking at it today and throwing out ideas for lists. Several people were interested in trying out a list with 2 bloodthirsters and 3 demon princes of khorne. My personal favorite is an all nurgle list with the Tallyman. After a couple of turns and a few kills, I want to assault a carnifex with 3 stands of nurglings and kill it in one round. 12 attacks, hitting on 4's, wounding on 2's, no armor save = 5 wounds.
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Post by: Blackheart666
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm sure Daemons will be more attractive to new players, same as how the current CSM book is attractive to players who haven't depended on the crutches of brokenness in the previous book.
John... this blows my mind that you would post this with (probably) a straight face consider that in the time I've known you.. you've bounced between suckling at the Eldar teat to suckling at the Spayce Marienz (hurr!) teat...
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Blackie, at this point, I have so little hobby time, I wouldn't care if the rules were simplified to the point that the whole thing were written on a paper napkin - as long as they were clear and didn't get in the way of me making an army or playing a game.
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
bigchris1313 wrote:Pariah Press wrote:The fact that I can now use my daemons in 40K without having to buy a bunch of spikey marines is nice.
You know, you're absolutely right! With the old Chaos Codex, with its limitless options, vast armory, and countless unit entries, I just felt so compelled to do things like taking both Demons and Marines in the same army. Now, with two books with far fewer options each, I'm free to choose, err, forced to field only one force at a time!
Gosh, was one of those "limitless options" the options to take an all-daemon army without any Pokey Marines? 'Cause if it wasn't, you need to consider turning the sarcasm down a notch or two. I didn't ruin your Codex for you. That was Gav.
I don't like Pokey Marines. I think they're stupid. Is that okay with you?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Pariah Press wrote: Well, it's true. Half of the old daemons from the original Realm of Chaos books didn't have rules representing them.
Such as?
Sorry, I see that I wasn't very clear. I meant that half of the old daemons from the original RoC books didn't have rules in the 3.5 Codex. (Beasts, Fiends, er, well, just Beasts and Fiends, actually. Oh! And those really stupid Daemons of Kweethul!) 
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I think a Daemon army is fine as an army, I just really would like the choice of mixing the two.
And before someone (John and Pariah, I'm looking at you two) comes back and ever-so smartly says: 'Well I like the idea of a Marine (HURR!) and Eldar army, but I can't have that!', let me just pre-empt you and say:
It's not the same thing
If people want to have their Daemon armies, then that's great. More power to 'em. But for those of us who lost our World Eater armies, why can't we bring 'Zerkers and 'Letters into battle? How does us doing that harm the people who just want Spiky Marine (HURR!) armies or just want Daemon armies?
BYE
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Let me pre-empt Doobie's answer as well:
Well HB, you can bring both Daemons and Spiky Spase Mareinz (HURR) at the same time in Apocalypse, all the time too in Apocalypse, without restriction in Apocalypse.
And, HB, you haven't lost World Eaters at all! Here, let me link you to their datasheet! See, you can still take World Eaters all the time in Apocalypse.
HURR!
BYE
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Pariah Press wrote:Gosh, was one of those "limitless options" the options to take an all-daemon army without any Pokey Marines?
Why yes it was!
You could take a perfectly legal army consisting of:
HQ 1 Greater Daemon
Troops = 2-6 Daemon Packs & Nurglings
Fast = 0-3 Daemonic Beasts
The only minor problem is that the units would automatically be destroyed as soon as they arrived from Reserves, owing to the lack of Pokey Marines.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
HMBC, you're taking all of the fun out of Dakka.
Anyhow, you forgot secret answer #3:
Well, HB, you can bring both Daemons and Spiky Marines (HURR!), all the time, without restriction - just ignore that the Daemons are *generic*.
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah...
Ok so there is alot of hate for gamers who wanted to use the armies that worked fine in the old codexs...
I'm actually fairly happy with the new C:CSM
but i feel that the option to ally the basic 4 deamon types would not have been too much of a stretch...
It's funny that people don't to like have options and actualy argue that that's a good thing.
imagine if in the new C: SM they rule out certain Spaz marines...
only generic spaz marines now.. no dark angels or templars, and they shall all be painted blue.
oh meltas and flamers and whatnot.. it's just many options for you and it's confusing... all guns are now either a big gun or small gun.....
and your limited to one big gun for every 10 men.
no bikes for marines that's a orc thing...
and ummm... yeah one stat line 4 4 4 4 1 10 3+
scouts arn't selling so we dropped them from the list.
panic
yeah...
365
Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
gorgon wrote:- Do 40K players want an army that looks almost identical to a WFB army?
Yes. I think they should do a similar dual release for Beasts of Chaos as well. Just throw a sprue with a giant Beastman torso in the Defiler kit and you've got yourself Codex: Chaos Beastmen. This release will be a perfect follow-up to Codex: Chaos Feral World Guys. SWEET!
- A new "daemonbomb" may be the only design route given that the units and miniatures have already been dictated to them, but can the designers balance an army?
Fixed your typo.
5164
Post by: Stelek
Abadadoon you forgot the future of 40K!
Codex: Red
Codex: Blue
Codex: Yellow
It's for 12 year olds and gamers without time to think, they just need to grab the appropriate colored figs (and thankfully, they offer cases in this color for the really stupid folks) and they can be on their way to a fun filled game!
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
jfrazell wrote:Voodoo Boyz wrote:It must be awfully terrible for Demon users to actually have to work to get their units into assault without getting shot to pieces first...just like the rest of us.
While technically accurate, the sarcasm is uncalled for. Most deepstriking lists at the moment (trying to think of one that doesn't) have the ability to blast away when they deepstrike in. It sounds as if the demon forces will not have that ability (which also contrasts with how it works on Codex Renegadez). Except for Tzeentch and who cares about them? They don't have two wounds and really don't have a lot going for them...
The option to assault on deepstirking was a nice middle ground. Frankly it should have been carried forward into the demon codex. That and the option that 1/2 could actually start on the board. I see an all deepstriking only list as potentially getting tedious (and will keep my Nid counts as option for non-tourney games which are all my games at this point).
I don't think it's uncalled for.
I've seen too many people bitching about Chaos and Demons, when really all they miss is the ability to summon Bloodletters and Demonettes (or mounted Demonettes) off their fast/infiltrating units, have them come in, move, and assault.
I'm sorry, but it really is just terrible that such "options" are no longer available to Chaos Marines.
Deepstrike + Assault when you arrive is just not something that makes for fun games. That is just not an option for so many armies out there to deal with, it just makes the game incredibly stupid.
The rest of the armies out there have to work their asses off to get good CC troops into assault. It's time Chaos started having to deal with the same issues the rest of us have had to for years.
Sure I know some of you just wanted rules for each of your models, and I can respect that. But too much of the bitching I see about Demons, especially in real life, revolves around the fact that you can't pull off the safe assaults with what were some of the best assault troops in the game.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Funny I say the same thing every time someone deepstrikes in and tries to shoot me up. But thats different isn't it...
844
Post by: stonefox
Agree with Voodoo. The only moaning I've seen was from Iron Warriors players (big surprise) and let's-rush-our-bikes-up-and-drop-50-bloodletters/demonettes players (another big surprise). I'm sure we'll see the same rounds of moans 4 years from now, when Tyranids talk about losing the "options" (read: crutches) of elite carnifices and Eldar losing their "options" of spirit stones and harlies in falcons.
edit: I say the same thing every time someone deepstrikes in and tries to shoot me up. But thats different isn't it...
Yeah because you can shoot back at those deepstrikers.
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
jfrazell wrote:Funny I say the same thing every time someone deepstrikes in and tries to shoot me up. But thats different isn't it...
The Shooting phase allows them to shoot one unit, and then they're open to retaliatory shooting and/or assault.
By deepstriking and assaulting, it is very easy and possible that the units could safely consolidate into another unit, that they can also butcher, and then in their turn continue the practice, without facing the threat of shooting.
Not every army has the tools to deal with this. Some do and can get around this "tactic", others can do stupid annoying things like building a skimmer "castle" so that they can't be assaulted when their opponent would summon, which leads to more and more annoying lists, and then some armies that don't have the tools to avoid it get left out of the game.
Plus you make it sound like the other "deepstrike and shoot you" armies aren't getting nerfed or removed.
Marines are going to get a DA style nerf. Notice how no one really complains that much about Drop Pods when all that comes out are Marines with just Bolters and 1 Special Weapon, or when Terminators only have one assault cannon per unit. I also see all-drop-troop IG armies getting boned for much the same reason.
221
Post by: Frazzled
stonefox wrote:Agree with Voodoo. The only moaning I've seen was from Iron Warriors players (big surprise) and let's-rush-our-bikes-up-and-drop-50-bloodletters/demonettes players (another big surprise). I'm sure we'll see the same rounds of moans 4 years from now, when Tyranids talk about losing the "options" (read: crutches) of elite carnifices and Eldar losing their "options" of spirit stones and harlies in falcons.
We're talking about the demon codex. Last I saw there were not a lot of bikes in the demon codex. Everything drops. Even the Chaos Renegadez permits summoned demon units to assault. Unless the codex suddenly changes, units in the demon codex do not have the same ability. Ok...
edit: Again I am not arguing for summon-move-assault. I am arguing for a middle ground of summon-assault if in range. That follows the Chaos Codex and evens up the effectiveness band somewhat. At least half the force is deeptsriking without homers so can bounce all over the place (or however it works in V5).
Yeah because you can shoot back at those deepstrikers.
Only after they have shot you. In this context there is effectively a free turn of shooting. Initial testing under rumored V5 by some is reflecting a distinct disadvantage. A good player will shoot them as they come in and move speedbump units into assault or forward to protect the more expensive units. Good tactic which appears to work quite well.
As for the marines being nerfed. I'll wait to see it before I believe it.
5164
Post by: Stelek
Marines nerfed? Oh boy.
Personally I hope they get a huge power increase, because they suck nuts atm.
5376
Post by: two_heads_talking
JohnHwangDD wrote:HMBC, you're taking all of the fun out of Dakka.
it won't be long before HMBC will have his own thread, where he talks to himself. mark my words.. he will pre-empt everything and will have the final say too.
459
Post by: Hellfury
Heck, it was HBMC who made THIS program so he wouldnt have to hear anyone esle talk on dakka anymore, as he has everyone on ignore.
You may thing he is responding to you, but when he sees a posters name on the thread he has ignored, he goes to his trusty autoreponse program and then types in a response to that.
Trust me, He isn't listening to anyone anymore. He is an aussie, he eats goana guts for breakfast. He is crazy I tells ya!
5376
Post by: two_heads_talking
rofl, sometimes I had to wonder, to whom he was responding. Now I know. he's just yelling at the dingos and the koala's and the bushbabys.. lol
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yet more proof that Aussies are KRAAAZY!!!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
two_heads_talking wrote:it won't be long before HMBC will have his own thread, where he talks to himself. mark my words.. he will pre-empt everything and will have the final say too.
I knew you'd say that... :S
BYE
5655
Post by: mortal888
Wow, that sounds like fun....deep striking units that have to sit there for a turn before being able to do ANYTHING? They'll all get shot to hell without killing a single model. Do they actually deep strike or do they have to be summoned by another unit?
171
Post by: Lorek
As an example, Panic:
Panic wrote:
oh meltas and flamers and whatnot.. it's just many options for you and it's confusing... all guns are now either a big gun or small gun.....
and your limited to one big gun for every 10 men.
Please follow standard punctuation and capitalization, as it makes your posts much easier to read. And an ellipses (...) is NOT a replacement for a single period.
Thank you.
306
Post by: Boss Salvage
mortal888 wrote:Wow, that sounds like fun....deep striking units that have to sit there for a turn before being able to do ANYTHING? They'll all get shot to hell without killing a single model. Do they actually deep strike or do they have to be summoned by another unit?
Yep, they strike down and then hang out for a turn, eating bolters. Have yet to figure out how my khorne demon army is supposed to work :S
An icon is a 25 point teleport homer, nothing more. 5 points on a DP, but still just lets further units strike within 6" and sit. Take that legit demons, lesser demons can come out fighting!
- Salvage
221
Post by: Frazzled
mortal888 wrote:Wow, that sounds like fun....deep striking units that have to sit there for a turn before being able to do ANYTHING? They'll all get shot to hell without killing a single model. Do they actually deep strike or do they have to be summoned by another unit?
Half deepstrikes turn 1. The opther half deepstrikes turn 2. The turn 2 guys can come in on a teleport homer so not as bad (but still can't move or assault).
306
Post by: Boss Salvage
jfrazell wrote:Half deepstrikes turn 1. The opther half deepstrikes turn 2. The turn 2 guys can come in on a teleport homer so not as bad (but still can't move or assault).
For the record ...
Divide your army into 2 halves before the game begins. Pick the half you want to strike first turn, roll a 3+ and they strike down. On a 1-2 the other half arrives first turn. From there, all remaining units arrive as normal deep strikers, so 4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, etc.
- Salvage
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
H.B.M.C. wrote:I think a Daemon army is fine as an army, I just really would like the choice of mixing the two.
And before someone (John and Pariah, I'm looking at you two) comes back and ever-so smartly says: 'Well I like the idea of a Marine (HURR!) and Eldar army, but I can't have that!', let me just pre-empt you and say:
It's not the same thing
If people want to have their Daemon armies, then that's great. More power to 'em. But for those of us who lost our World Eater armies, why can't we bring 'Zerkers and 'Letters into battle? How does us doing that harm the people who just want Spiky Marine (HURR!) armies or just want Daemon armies?
BYE
It doesn't. When you play at my house, you can use whatever daemons you wants with your Pokey Marines.
Re Space Marine / Eldar army: can't I at least have "Generic Aliens" in my Space Marine army?
221
Post by: Frazzled
Boss_Salvage wrote:jfrazell wrote:Half deepstrikes turn 1. The opther half deepstrikes turn 2. The turn 2 guys can come in on a teleport homer so not as bad (but still can't move or assault).
For the record ...
Divide your army into 2 halves before the game begins. Pick the half you want to strike first turn, roll a 3+ and they strike down. On a 1-2 the other half arrives first turn. From there, all remaining units arrive as normal deep strikers, so 4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, etc.
- Salvage
Wow that sucks even worse. Thanks for the clarification Boss Salvage.
207
Post by: Balance
Daemons of Kweethul?
5655
Post by: mortal888
Well, at least I'll also be deep striking flamers, greater demons, and demon princes. With a little bit of terrain, it could still work.
5376
Post by: two_heads_talking
H.B.M.C. wrote:two_heads_talking wrote:it won't be long before HMBC will have his own thread, where he talks to himself. mark my words.. he will pre-empt everything and will have the final say too.
I knew you'd say that... :S
BYE
and he's prophetic too.. now I am getting scared.
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
Balance wrote:Daemons of Kweethul?
Kweethul Gristlegut is some sort of Skaven-related Chaos God. His daemons were/are:
Six Eyed Slayer: Great Daemon. Two-headed humanoid with cloven hooves and wings.
Floating Horror: Lesser Daemon. A harpy, basically.
Fire Runner: Steed. A camel with a lizard's head, flaming feet, and an additional pair pf pincered limbs.
Thing: Beast. Sort of a giant, four-legged tick.
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
stonefox wrote:Agree with Voodoo. The only moaning I've seen was from Iron Warriors players (big surprise) and let's-rush-our-bikes-up-and-drop-50-bloodletters/demonettes players (another big surprise). I'm sure we'll see the same rounds of moans 4 years from now, when Tyranids talk about losing the "options" (read: crutches) of elite carnifices and Eldar losing their "options" of spirit stones and harlies in falcons.
Who are you and what have you done with Stonefox?! I agree with everything you wrote, that can't be right...
Ozymandias, King of Kings
5655
Post by: mortal888
The new undivided greater demon will make a great Cthulhu too. He causes mass chaos to everyone within 24".
4437
Post by: Narlix
Im a little confused why every one is bad mouthing the horrors.
I mean stat wise they are a little blah
but if "Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)" is actually the gun they are all packing even at BS3 thats alot of flak.
Lets be fluffy here for a min and say you have a unit of 9, thats 27 shots, 13 will hit , so 7 wounds, 2 marines dead, or an entire guard, tau, aspect warrior, bug unit.
That and if I read the rumor right they have a 4+ invun save ( however if the 5th edition rules rumors prove true this is pointless, unless you start gettting invun saves on top of cover saves) instead of the 5+, though that is countered by the T3.
i don't recall the points cost for horrors from the 3.5 codex ( I always used daemonettes), but they can't be more than 20 points each, so 180ish for a 9 horror unit?
I will be honest the flamers seem like the overcosted ones to me ecept they can get breath of chaos( hurray for auto glance, though once agian 5th could really put a kabash to this aswell).
4996
Post by: Russell
10 pink horros vs 12 bolter marines.
pinks tport in and go first. 30 shots = 15 hits = 7.5 wounds = 2.5 kills
9.5 marines walk forward and rapid fire back. 19 shots, 12.5 hits, 8.25 wounds = 4.1 kills.
The idiot things can't even shoot it out vs bog standard marines.
5655
Post by: mortal888
Or, the marines charge and mop up with almost no casualties.
5164
Post by: Stelek
I'm confused, who thinks auto glance is worth a spit?
I auto glance! Woo I get to stun you, shake you, or if I roll really good I get to take off a weapon.
What's that? You weren't a dummy and deployed troops around your vehicles so you can't actually flame me anyway?
YAY!
4437
Post by: Narlix
Stelek wrote:I'm confused, who thinks auto glance is worth a spit?
I auto glance! Woo I get to stun you, shake you, or if I roll really good I get to take off a weapon.
What's that? You weren't a dummy and deployed troops around your vehicles so you can't actually flame me anyway?
YAY!
see auto glance can be nice, one or two yeah it kinda worthless ( though agianst something you can only glance anyway like a falcon), but ask any necron player about glances on a 6, its much like marines the more dice that are rolled the more that die ( ie, on average every 3 wounds = 1 dead marine), but I do agree one auto glance will be basicly worthless.
Russell wrote:...10 pink horros vs 12 bolter marines.
ok Chaos marines can come in squads of 12 but lets be a little more realistic here on average marine come in 4 sizes, 5, 6, 8, and 10( with 5 and 6 being the most common) in all of those one guy is going to have special weapon and in 3 of those a heavy weapon. but yes I do agree marines are not their strong point, however they bloody murder anything with a 4+ save and up, and they have an 18 inch range so can stay out of rapid fire range though its is unlikely. them being charged by the marines is whats going to get them killed as mortal888 said
4655
Post by: tegeus-Cromis
Narlix, you forget that in 4th ed, glances can actually result in outright destruction if you're lucky. In 5th, this will be impossible due to the modified table.
As for horrors vs Marines, it doesn't really matter what size squads usually come in; the point is to compare equal points' worth of one with the other. I don't imagine that factoring in HWs will do the horrors much good.
4437
Post by: Narlix
tegeus-Cromis wrote:Narlix, you forget that in 4th ed, glances can actually result in outright destruction if you're lucky. In 5th, this will be impossible due to the modified table.
As for horrors vs Marines, it doesn't really matter what size squads usually come in; the point is to compare equal points' worth of one with the other. I don't imagine that factoring in HWs will do the horrors much good.
I did mention in my first post that 5th most likely will hose mass glance
and I under stand the equal points thing and do use it, I was just pointing out the more realistic expectation, 6man las/ plas which will result in 3 dead Horrors, actually a 5 man combat squad with a plasma gun in it kills 3 horrors also. but that is if the marines shoot first, if the horrors shoot first ( more likly) the marines will only average 1 of the horrors dead.
Now don't get me wrong I think the other 3 daemons are better, even with the rending nerf comeing in 5th the daemonettes are still going to do alot of damage, bloodletters are still treating marines like a 3 dollar whore at navy base gate, and the plaguebearers actually look like they will stick around long enough to make it to combat, maybe.
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
The only real advantage I can see for DS daemons is being able to drop piles of Daemonettes very close. At the prices I saw before, you can get a huge pile of them down in the first turn, depending on how you build your "half that are not coming". I envision them being sort of like Orks that don't have to walk towards the enemy. It probably isn't ideal, but given the really low points cost, it might work out pretty well.
I could be entirely wrong though; I don't play either an assaulty or drop podding army. Just the idea of that many daemonettes dropping all at once makes me think I can't shoot enough in one turn to remove that many fearless things.
5164
Post by: Stelek
You don't have to remove that many, Wehrkind.
You need to cripple as many squads as you can.
1 or 2 daemonettes, even in groups of 2 or 3...is easily handled and can't lock great sections of your army down.
A strong countercharge (available to every army) will see them off. Marine armies don't even need that.
Then you punish the rest of the demon army that drops in piecemeal, and you should be fine.
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Well, that might be the trick, crippling enough. It would be interested to play against, though I don't doubt that knowing you were going to face daemons would prompt a certain sort of deployment that pretty quickly would deal with it.
Probably would have been better if you could opt to have units start on the board, so at least your opponant would have to guess.
306
Post by: Boss Salvage
The general idea seems to be ...
Plague Bearers -> Drop down first wave, they love small arm fire and really anything with their T5, 5+ inv, 4+ FNP. Then other demons summon of these dudes.
Bloodletters -> Not viable as first wave troopers, possibly best situation is to drop in later turns after earlier demons have weathered the worst enemy fire and gotten stuck in. Still working these guys out, as this is what my khorne army will be made of. At least they're T4.
Horrors -> Drop close in order to shoot AP3 at MEQ, possibly as first wave or sporadically later. Unsure of ability to hold for further demon summoning, seems unlikely with T3, 4+ inv (right?)
Demonettes -> Best dropped outside of enemy rapid fire in / behind terrain, as fleet can mitigate the distance with good rolls. Otherwise large squad size required, T3 5+ inv is weakest of the demons for individual staying power. Re: Stelek's post, with current rending even a few demonettes can wreck vehicles and dent squads, but agreed that crippling squads can leave just a handful of T3 chicks to punch in combat and break back.
Just some thoughts on the main troops and possible wave uses.
- Salvage
270
Post by: winterman
Gosh, was one of those "limitless options" the options to take an all-daemon army without any Pokey Marines?
This kinda gets my goat cause yeah, you could run an all demon army similar to what is offered by this demon codex.
Demon prince as HQ.
Various troop and FA demons
Defilers (don't kid yourself, soulgrinder is nothing but nerfed defiler with mutated hull).
Perfectly legal and when using a siren prince is as viable if not more competitive then the current demon codex.
But ask yourself, who even wanted to run an all demon army in 40k in the first place? Few people as far as I can tell.
As far as the complaining about this dex being solely about no move and assault -- the complaining started well in advance of that mechanic being found out. Most didn't want to see the background tossed aside so GW could sell models. I always liked the idea that demons needed an anchor in the real world. Any army of cultists/mutants and daemons would have been pretty damn cool (and could have even been marketed to fantasy players, having a tech sprue and a ancient weapon sprue).
Now what we get is some stupid fluff about battles taking place in the warp. Wonderfull, now anytime my army faces demon army it pretty much loses as far as story line. Cause they will either go mad or be obliterated by the inquisition. Neato.
752
Post by: Polonius
Here's an interesting comparison, purely hypothetical of course.
Codex: CSM 3.5 had 12 purely daemon units (packs, greater daemons, cavarly, and nurlgings) with 12 CSM units: everything else. Admittedly, some of those units are things like Chaos Space Marine squad, which became 5 seperate unit entries in the new book, but the point remains: Chaos lost 12 unique daemon units, and got 2 back.
If you look at the eldar codex, there are 9 "Aspect" units, and 13 "Guardian" units. How would the community feel if there were two new codices: Codex: Aspect Shrines and Codex: Guardian Militias? Maybe Guardian Militias could take some form of Dire Avenger and some sort of super guardian autarch, while Aspect shrines get some form of Falcon/Fire prism.
Now, daemons were seldom as large a factor in Chaos armies then Aspects are to Eldar, but I think the similarity is striking. My point is even if Codex: Aspect Warriors sucked, people would be pretty pissed that 1) all their old aspects now "count-as" Lesser Aspect Warriors and 2) their 2500pt eldar army is now two 1250pt armies.
A lot of the sturm and drang surrouding the new Chaos book is a bit disingenous: some very strong builds got neutered or eliminated. On the other hand, Just like many Eldar armies now rely on aspects for, say, HtH support, so did many old chaos armies.
My point is that while a low power daemon codex will be truely obnoxious, dividing one army into two is going to upset some people, and I believe that they have the right to be at least a bit upset.
181
Post by: gorgon
winterman wrote:As far as the complaining about this dex being solely about no move and assault -- the complaining started well in advance of that mechanic being found out. Most didn't want to see the background tossed aside so GW could sell models. I always liked the idea that demons needed an anchor in the real world. Any army of cultists/mutants and daemons would have been pretty damn cool (and could have even been marketed to fantasy players, having a tech sprue and a ancient weapon sprue).
Now what we get is some stupid fluff about battles taking place in the warp. Wonderfull, now anytime my army faces demon army it pretty much loses as far as story line. Cause they will either go mad or be obliterated by the inquisition. Neato.
On Warseer, this argument usually results in someone pointing out that there are a few fluff examples of mass daemon incursions, and that the fluff is generally mutable anyway. So now I usually say I just plain don't like the army concept, at least on the 40K side, that is. It seems to me that the business side of the company's influence is more noticeable in this codex than most, and it's resulted in a kinda forced and contrived army concept. IMO, it's a shame that such a limited concept is filling a valuable codex "slot." It wouldn't take a lot to make it much more flexible and interesting. Oh well.
As far as the competitiveness of the army goes, I'm content to wait and see. Dakkaites absolutely buried the Tyranid codex when it was released, and it turned out more than okay.
5164
Post by: Stelek
gorgon wrote:As far as the competitiveness of the army goes, I'm content to wait and see. Dakkaites absolutely buried the Tyranid codex when it was released, and it turned out more than okay.
I wasn't around then, just lurking, I should have posted but it took 2 years to get the army together...I had like 5 projects going then. lol Although I was enjoying playtesting my old ass nid models as MC lists. I also enjoyed playing my warrior army during the brief time when they could fleet. Man, those were the days...turn 2 warrior assaults on everything. Rending everywhere. Good times. Sad it got nerfed.
5164
Post by: Stelek
This:
Boss_Salvage wrote:Plague Bearers -> Drop down first wave, they love small arm fire and really anything with their T5, 5+ inv, 4+ FNP. Then other demons summon of these dudes.
Plus this:
Boss_Salvage wrote:
Bloodletters -> Not viable as first wave troopers, possibly best situation is to drop in later turns after earlier demons have weathered the worst enemy fire and gotten stuck in. Still working these guys out, as this is what my khorne army will be made of. At least they're T4.
Plus this:
Boss_Salvage wrote:
Horrors -> Drop close in order to shoot AP3 at MEQ, possibly as first wave or sporadically later. Unsure of ability to hold for further demon summoning, seems unlikely with T3, 4+ inv (right?)
Is alot of points burned. Especially if you have a alot of them so you can do more than fire at one guard unit and kill it. Tactical squads will take what you've got then return the favor.
It's also got a few problems. What happens to your shooting when you screen? Right, you can't shoot.
You can screen non-shooty with the plague bearers, to a point--vehicles and MC will still be able to see you and fire at you.
Most artillery can't because it's so low physical model wise.
At any rate, the major problem with this is:
You only have so many troop slots.
Everything outside of troops ranges from overpriced to really?!
Then there's the 'oops, I rolled a 1-2 and my reserves are coming in and my first drop is reserve now I'm toast'.
So yes, if you roll up a perfect storm you can do fairly well. Once people figure out how to play against the army, they'll crush it.
Almost any list will do, sadly.
Boss_Salvage wrote:
Demonettes Best dropped outside of enemy rapid fire in / behind terrain, as fleet can mitigate the distance with good rolls. Otherwise large squad size required, T3 5+ inv is weakest of the demons for individual staying power. Re: Stelek's post, with current rending even a few demonettes can wreck vehicles and dent squads, but agreed that crippling squads can leave just a handful of T3 chicks to punch in combat and break back.
Mostly you whittle the demon squads down into small numbers then overwhelm them with fearless wounds. Hmmm, I killed one, you have one left, and I outnumber you 8-1. Ok take 8 fearless 5+ saves. Oh you're dead? Surprise, surprise, surprise.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Stelek I do believe you have a negative outlook on this codex
181
Post by: gorgon
Stelek wrote:I wasn't around then, just lurking, I should have posted but it took 2 years to get the army together...I had like 5 projects going then. lol Although I was enjoying playtesting my old ass nid models as MC lists. I also enjoyed playing my warrior army during the brief time when they could fleet. Man, those were the days...turn 2 warrior assaults on everything. Rending everywhere. Good times. Sad it got nerfed.
I'm looking forward to running Warriors. They might get a little of the old magic back.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Polonius wrote:If you look at the eldar codex, there are 9 "Aspect" units, and 13 "Guardian" units. How would the community feel if there were two new codices: Codex: Aspect Shrines and Codex: Guardian Militias?
That would be Codex: Craftworld Biel Tan and Codex: Craftworld Ulthwe, respectively, and I'd be pretty happy with it. Tho you're making a false dichotomy because you're counting vehicles as Guardians. If you want to look at CSM in a parallel way, then you'd have to count their vehicles as Daemons.
Speaking as an Eldar player with over 8,000 pts of Eldar, I would *love* to have Codex: Eldar replaced by Codex: CW BT.
Quite frankly, GW dropped the ball with the Eldar Codex. Aspects should be Troops, similar to CSM Cult Marines and Guardians should be non-slot support, similar to CSM Daemons:
HQ - Avatar, Autarch, Farseer
Elite - Wraithguard, Rangers, Harlequins, CotYK
Troops - Avengers, Dragons, Banshees, Scorpions
Transport - Falcon, Wave Serpent
Fast - Hawks, Spears, Spiders, Vyper
Heavy - Wraithlord, Reapers, Prism, Walkers
(Troops) - Lesser Guardians w/ AGP
(Fast) - Greater Guardians w/ Jetbikes
*That* is an army list I and a lot of other Eldar players could wrap our arms around. The notion that Guardians should take the field in any significant way is just wrong when you look at the Eldar Fluff and its ramifications on army design and composition.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Well the option for guardian heavy lists is there, but if you retain them and the storm guardian variant as troops (which you have) then a lot of the eldar issues indeed fall away. Not sure why it was written like that (other than to insure DA and guardian models are sold).
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Exactly, jfrazell.
The Guardian as Troops thing is a bad holdover that should go away.
Conceptually and Fluffily, Guardian-heavy forces make no sense whatsover. Guardians as an expendable horde is at complete odds with the notion of a dying race with limited numbers. Eldar aren't continuously-spawning Nids or Orks, so they shouldn't ever be fielded this way. Also, a large portion of an Eldar warrior's capability comes from the knowledge learned and skills embedded in the Aspect armour itself. Throwing a cook into a Scorpion suit makes him a badass because he basically pilots the suit. As long as a Craftworld has Aspect armour, they would expect to field it.
5164
Post by: Stelek
Actually none of an Eldar Warriors capability comes from his suit. It's not like 'greatest american hero', after all.
That's a Phoenix Lord.
Aspect Warriors are the same 'guardians' (aka farmers, workers, etc) only they've been trained in their aspect.
Exarchs are those who have been 'stuck' in their aspect for so long they have a terrible time escaping.
Autarchs are those that have escaped.
By the way, this is why it's difficult for me to answer you seriously. If you don't know the fluff, why are you using it as the key point of your argument?
Guardians are troops because the metal models are expensive and the plastic ones are not. There is no other driving reason other than that one. The rest of the reasons are just tangential. They do exist, but they aren't important. Being plastic is.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Ahem. A Phoenix Lord is simply an older Exarch suit, which is simply an older Aspect suit. You're telling us that the Eldar disable the learning / assist mode from their regular Aspect suits?
As for knowing the Fluff, I think I've been at this game a lot longer than you.
1099
Post by: Railguns
Did they ever have assist mode? I don't recall ever having read or heard of an aspect or Exarch suit "learning". Way back in Third when the Eldar Codex came out(which I still have at home somewhere) it simply describes the Phoenix Lords as suits of armor animated by the absorbed consciousnesses of those that wore it. Nothing about learned anything. They train at the shrines as their chosen "Path", as every Eldar chooses a Path to prevent from falling into the depravity that destroyed the race in the first place. An aspect just happens to be a warrior path.
I do agree that guardian heavy forces are idiotic though.
5164
Post by: Stelek
JohnHwangDD wrote:Ahem. A Phoenix Lord is simply an older Exarch suit, which is simply an older Aspect suit. You're telling us that the Eldar disable the learning / assist mode from their regular Aspect suits?
As for knowing the Fluff, I think I've been at this game a lot longer than you.
Can think it all you want.
Your words speak for themselves.
Training at shrines is indeed how the farmers learn their chosen aspect of war.
Any Eldar player should know this, it's been in the fluff for over a decade.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
JohnHwangDD wrote:That would be Codex: Craftworld Biel Tan and Codex: Craftworld Ulthwe, respectively, and I'd be pretty happy with it.
Then I have to ask you something that Doobie's asked you in the past:
John, why do you hate freedom?
Why is there no reason that you couldn't have an Eldar list that allows both army types, or a mix of the two like... oh I dunno... the current one. Why should Chaos players be punished with a dismally boring Spiky Spase Mareinz (HURR!) Codex and a whole separate Codex for all the daemons we already own?
BYE
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
HMBC, did you even bother to read what I wrote?
Of course not.
If you did, you would see that Aspect-oriented C: Biel-Tan has a very different structure from the current Guardian-oriented C: Eldar.
Given that I would prefer to play an Aspect-oriented army, I'd like GW to split the lists to give me the FREEDOM to play the army that I want to.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
OK, Stelek, what happened to the S4 ex-Scorpion guys and the I6 ex-Banshee girls? They pull their punches and slow down when they're done with their Aspect training and wear Guardian armour once again?
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Blame the fluff and rules not Stelek, he didn't write the Eldar codex. All warlocks are ex-Aspect warriors too, no S4 or I6 for them either.
Re: Iron Warriors: All the Iron Warriors players were complaining because they had models they couldn't use any more (Basilisks etc.). That's no losing crutches that's just getting skanked. Bloodletters were IMO over powered, just like they were in 2nd edition. Their new incarnation in New Codex:(read my lips no new Codices - except this one!) Daemons seem to me to be a little more balanced, and they have nicer models too (very Cthooloo).
1898
Post by: cerebaton
Stelek's right about Aspect Warriors - they have to train - the suit is just armour. I'm pretty sure this is even laid out in the current codex, but it's definitely in the 2nd ed. version. As far as I remember, Aspect Warriors are the Eldar's standing army, while the farmers/cooks/etc. only pick up a catapult in times of 'dire need' and the like.
1099
Post by: Railguns
What? Where do these I6 Banshees exist?? You aren't being clear here. Do you mean ex-aspect Guardians? Autarchs?
I believe the point being made is that a book that has both aspect and guardian units allows you to field either all of one or the other, or a combination. Splitting into two different groups takes away the freedom to have a combination. Chaos Marines are ,partly, defined by their allegiance to the Chaos Gods and summoning their demons. A combination.
The splitting of the two forces into mutually exclusive books is therefore a net loss in freedom, if you will.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
JohnHwangDD wrote:HMBC, did you even bother to read what I wrote?
I don't read the words of freedom-h8rs like you. 
JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that I would prefer to play an Aspect-oriented army, I'd like GW to split the lists to give me the FREEDOM to play the army that I want to.
Or, perhaps, a list that allows both without requiring two separate lists, giving people the freedom to do what they like.
BYE
5655
Post by: mortal888
Ugh, Eldar are boring. I thought this was a demon thread?
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
Exarchs (and Phoenix Lords) have lots of soul stones embedded in their armour. The soul stones contain the personalities of the previous wearers. In the case of the Phoenix Lords, that personality completely subsumes whatever mortal Eldar is wearing the armour. When an Eldar becomes an Exarch, he changes his name to his armour's name.
Some of this is pretty old fluff (from the Yellow Book and Ian Watson's Inquisition War) so it may have been contradicted since then.
2661
Post by: Tacobake
cerebaton wrote:Stelek's right about Aspect Warriors - they have to train - the suit is just armour. I'm pretty sure this is even laid out in the current codex, but it's definitely in the 2nd ed. version. As far as I remember, Aspect Warriors are the Eldar's standing army, while the farmers/cooks/etc. only pick up a catapult in times of 'dire need' and the like.
Aspect Warriors follow the Path of the warrior. When they are not fighting they meditate at their shrine like warrior monks. Everyone else follows the Path of the Whatever.
6127
Post by: CanadianGreenskinofKhorne
I finally got a look at the book today, and i think it is more survivable then everyone gives credit too. Unless your doing a cheese Mech army (tau, eldar, etc) daemons can survive a round of shooting, especially in 5th ed where you can screen letters with plaguebearers. Thirsters still are incredibly tough, skulltaker eats pretty much anycharacter and can run thorugh unit just as easily. Bloodcrushers are great too, and the soulgrinder is way more survivable then the defiler. just my opinion reading the book. in fantasy, the special character lord of change knows 14 SPELLS!!!! each head can pick i think like spells from lore of metal, fire, death, etc, then each head also knows all the tzeentch spells, giving it a total of 14 spells. That and its a great spellcaster too.
365
Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
JohnHwangDD wrote:I would be surprised if marketing was behind the split in the Chaos Codices.
Oh JohnHwangDD, you are so naive it's adorable. Marketing has been behind everything ever since Andy Chambers left (and probably for a good time before).
Being able to split Chaos into CSM and Daemons to sell a 2nd Codex upfront, followed by 4 more Codices was just convenient smoke to blow up management's skirt.
Where do you keep getting this ridiculous notion that there will be 4 more Chaos codices? What would go in them? The rules for these armies already exist - the only problem is that they spread across 2 separate stand-alone codices and several Apocalypse datasheets and thus cannot be used in regular 40K.
Any way you look at it, Daemon armies will be cheap if you use the "correct" cheap, plastic Daemons and avoid the expensive, crappy-looking Tzeentch and Nurgle stuff.
What crappy-looking Tzeentch stuff?
CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote:each head can pick i think like spells from lore of metal, fire, death, etc
What?! WHFB has lores of metal, fire, and death?! Why can't 40K be awesome like that?
Boss_Salvage wrote:For the record ...
Divide your army into 2 halves before the game begins. Pick the half you want to strike first turn, roll a 3+ and they strike down. On a 1-2 the other half arrives first turn. From there, all remaining units arrive as normal deep strikers, so 4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, etc.
You can't see the eyes of the daemon until him come callin'.
This is dread, man. Truly dread.
4893
Post by: Blackheart666
CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote:I finally got a look at the book today, and i think it is more survivable then everyone gives credit too. Unless your doing a cheese Mech army (tau, eldar, etc) daemons can survive a round of shooting,
so what you're saying is that 9.9 times out of 10, daemons won't survive sh-t?
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Post by: gorgon
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Marketing has been behind everything ever since Andy Chambers left (and probably for a good time before).
It has...and it should be. They're a public company. GW isn't a small shop of creative types anymore. They have shareholders to answer to, and they need number-crunching types to tell the creatives what they need to be working on to keep the ship afloat. That's just their business reality.
What I question in this case is whether their business people have a good read on their customers and their wants, and WHY certain things sell or don't sell.
The limitations of the Daemon codex are frustrating, although I can at least see a (misguided) business strategy. Now, no Horus Heresy supplement anywhere on the horizon? That's truly shocking, and IMO points to some real myopia on GW's part. Do they really think the Planetstrike supplement will have a wider appeal than a HH add-on?
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Post by: Frazzled
gorgon wrote:
What I question in this case is whether their business people have a good read on their customers and their wants, and WHY certain things sell or don't sell.
The limitations of the Daemon codex are frustrating, although I can at least see a (misguided) business strategy. Now, no Horus Heresy supplement anywhere on the horizon? That's truly shocking, and IMO points to some real myopia on GW's part. Do they really think the Planetstrike supplement will have a wider appeal than a HH add-on?
Excellent point. I don’t play marines but even I would be tempted if they came out with a Codex: Heresy. It could be an excuse for the dread pirate Legions the chaos boys want.
On the modeling side it could have bits/pads, some minis for main characters, mayhaps even a limited edition Horus (which everyone would use for Abaddon after that), and of course the patron saint of meatshields Oallanius Pius. A summer campaign could be had, recreating some of the primary events of the HH. “Drop site massacre month” Attack on earth month that sort of thing. No need to worry about “who won” just a celebration of the joy of heresy (recreating the actions).
Economics:
*new codex
*new minis bits (shoulder pads etc)
*new major minis and heroes
*new vehicles (drop pods, storm birds, TBD)
*new campaign book (aka like the Sabbat and 13th Crusade art campaign books)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
gorgon wrote:GW isn't a small shop of creative types anymore.
Ain't that the truth!
BYE
181
Post by: gorgon
Don't leave out:
*synergies with the very popular book series
*collectible character miniatures for those that aren't even interested in playing
*artwork already done
*plenty of existing fluff and text to pull from
...and most importantly...
*opportunity to sell new SM armies, even to those with existing armies
That's right, it's a chance to sell MORE SMs, and GW's passing it up. Either one of two things (or both) must be keeping it from happening:
1) Business side thinks it'll somehow detract from sales of existing lines and/or distract and confuse customers
2) Creative side doesn't think it fits into their creative vision
Whatever the holdup is, those individuals should be fired, really. Businesses a lot larger than GW would have shown more nimbleness in moving on this kind of opportunity.
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Post by: Blackmoor
I want everyone to remember what they are saying here.
That way, when I win with my demons you don’t complain about how cheesy my army is and dock my comp scores.
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Post by: lemurking23
I agree that GW, as a company, should reach more into HH times and other time lines. It would give older players more reasons to spend money and the more you excite your existing player base, the more likely they will do the word of mouth advertising necessary to develop new player bases.
But on the subject of Daemons,
I'll trust that my daemons will survive at least one round of shooting, and remember to give me great comp/sportsmanship scores when I inevitably lose.
I don't think the list has tri-falcon equivalent setups, but I see a lot, perhaps an absurb amount, of room for generalship in this army. With deepstriking, the massive amount of good fast units (Fiends, Bloodcrushers, Mounted Daemonettes, mounted Herlad of Khorne/Slaanesh), a solid choice of MC's (if a bit overpriced, especially a flying DP), and one of the hardiest troop choices (T5 ++5 FNP), there is a whole lot of room for a better than I general to exploit.
I know that Daemons will be my main tourney army, even if everything negative that has been said holds true, it will still teach me to be a better general. If nothing else, I cannot help but love most of the mini's, even good ol sluggo (which may immediately negate anything I've just said.)
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Post by: Stelek
Blackmoor wrote:I want everyone to remember what they are saying here.
That way, when I win with my demons you don’t complain about how cheesy my army is and dock my comp scores.
Remember after you beat the noobs and the painters in rounds 1-3, you have to face real opponents in rounds 4-5.
So remember what you said here, and don't cry when your comp score gets knocked by the first bunch and your battle score gets knocked by the second.
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Post by: Stelek
lemurking23 wrote:I don't think the list has tri-falcon equivalent setups, but I see a lot, perhaps an absurb amount, of room for generalship in this army. With deepstriking, the massive amount of good fast units (Fiends, Bloodcrushers, Mounted Daemonettes, mounted Herlad of Khorne/Slaanesh), a solid choice of MC's (if a bit overpriced, especially a flying DP), and one of the hardiest troop choices (T5 ++5 FNP), there is a whole lot of room for a better than I general to exploit.
Don't forget to field those good fast units you're going to be spending two or three (or four, or five) times what you normally do.
The best (being subjective) units cost the most money.
Blackmoor said he already has the army.
So he isn't planning on running:
Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Beast of Nurgle, Fiend of Slaanesh, Soul Grinder, Epidemius, Karanak, Skulltaker, The Masque; or any multiples of the new heralds.
Neat, so it'll be old greater demons, the regular demons, any of the old packs, and possibly converted defilers or demon princes.
My guess is 90 demonettes. Which don't do so hot against mech lists in 5th.
One of the first armies we tried, and even screened by plague bearers it was crap.
Well, if anyone is under the belief the old demons can be made into a killer army without the new releases...
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Post by: mortal888
I wonder what will constitute a good comp score for this army? I know a single god theme will get a good score, but what about undivided like the list is intended to be? If I take bloodletters, nurglings, and plaguebearers for troops, and take tzeentch HQ and heavy support, will I get a bad comp?
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Post by: Stelek
mortal888 wrote:I wonder what will constitute a good comp score for this army? I know a single god theme will get a good score, but what about undivided like the list is intended to be? If I take bloodletters, nurglings, and plaguebearers for troops, and take tzeentch HQ and heavy support, will I get a bad comp?
I don't think so, bud. Only the old school chaos players would ding you, and the uneducated new players who've been told "mixing is cheese".
You really need every trick in the bag to even stand a chance anyway.
I've found most people are very kind on their comp scores when they table you--kicking your opponents when they're down is low.
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Post by: Frazzled
You can always tweek your mixed units. I will use demonettes for the demon list (and stand ins as gaunts for my counts as Nids). I intend to mix in a few beastment heads to link them to the rest of my beastie themed army.
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Post by: gorgon
Blackmoor wrote:I want everyone to remember what they are saying here.
That way, when I win with my demons you don’t complain about how cheesy my army is and dock my comp scores.
Hey, I'm withholding judgment on the competitiveness of the army. When you win, I'll just tell you that you built one fine army out of that conceptually "meh" codex.
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Post by: gorgon
Stelek wrote:I don't think so, bud. Only the old school chaos players would ding you, and the uneducated new players who've been told "mixing is cheese".
Looking at the CSM and Daemon books, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos Skittles are what GW WANTS us to play.
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Post by: 40kenthusiast
The entire fluff segment of the codex seems to be dedicated to telling us how it's Daemons vs. ALL. It's one big happy Chaotic family.
5536
Post by: lemurking23
Stelek wrote:
I've found most people are very kind on their comp scores when they table you--kicking your opponents when they're down is low.
So that's why I always get good soft scores....maybe I should just tank the inevitable one game I win/tie so I can reach the sportsmanship award. Now daemons really are going to be my tourny army...good...good.
Yes, the newer models do seem to be a bit more powerful. A smart move for a business, 12 bucks for one mounted daemonette is pretty staggering. Nothing like a 20 man unit that costs 340 points and 240 dollars.
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Post by: mortal888
Looking at the CSM and Daemon books, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos Skittles are what GW WANTS us to play.
I have to admit, painting several colors for one army sounds fun. After painting the 50th model or so the same color as all the rest, I get bored. I even plan on painting all the bases different colors to coincide with the different realms the demons would have spawned from. I wish they would have stuck to their old rules formats of giving bonuses to legions of all the same god, but I still would have made an undivided army for this one just for monotony's sake.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
mortal888 wrote:Looking at the CSM and Daemon books, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos Skittles are what GW WANTS us to play.
I have to admit, painting several colors for one army sounds fun. After painting the 50th model or so the same color as all the rest, I get bored.
And that is why we have spray paint.
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Post by: Stelek
JohnHwangDD wrote:And that is why we have spray paint.
LOL! Good one!
1963
Post by: Aduro
I spray paint the first base coat on my `Nids and Necrons before I even cut em off the sprue! After that it's mostly all dry brushing. Made sure it was an easy easy paint job since I was going to be doing tons of em.
5655
Post by: mortal888
No spawn in a demon army? Bollucks.
I'll be using my spawn as fiends of slaanesh, beasts of nurgle, and bloodcrushers of khorn then. They'll look better than the new models anyway.
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Post by: Frazzled
My two spawn will also likely find a use. They are just too choice to be ignored.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
jfrazell wrote:My two spawn will also likely find a use. They are just too choice to be ignored.
The models or their rules?
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Post by: Frazzled
Models. Maybe as a stand in for Karanak or such. Still working that one out.
5655
Post by: mortal888
I still think they make perfect beasts. Its the same size base and there's absolutely no reason for all the beasts to look the same. Just make sure they look like the associated god.
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Post by: Frazzled
Sorry, what beasts are we talking about here?
5655
Post by: mortal888
Beasts of nurgle, bloodcrushers, fiends of slaanesh. They're all close to the same stats and use the same size base.
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Post by: Frazzled
Ah yes I could see that. Would be good for those. I have my own plans for Crushers...
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Post by: Iron_Wolves
Stelek wrote:Blackmoor said he already has the army.
So he isn't planning on running:
Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Beast of Nurgle, Fiend of Slaanesh, Soul Grinder, Epidemius, Karanak, Skulltaker, The Masque; or any multiples of the new heralds.
Neat, so it'll be old greater demons, the regular demons, any of the old packs, and possibly converted defilers or demon princes.
My guess is 90 demonettes. Which don't do so hot against mech lists in 5th.
One of the first armies we tried, and even screened by plague bearers it was crap.
Well, if anyone is under the belief the old demons can be made into a killer army without the new releases...
I would love to see your army. In my armies (except tau) over 90% are converted models and I guess Blackmoor cannot convert any of his deamons from older models. As for me I almost have all the deamons I need to make a list with 3 GD, 2 heralds and other deamons.
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Post by: Pariah Press
mortal888 wrote:No spawn in a demon army? Bollucks.
I think that Lord of Change has a power that can turn enemies into Spawns, doesn't he? That's what I'm going to use my Spawns for.
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Post by: airmang
yes there is a power called Boon of Mutation that any model that can take a power can have. it is just like gift of chaos, except you have to roll to hit, but it creates a spawn all the same.
4893
Post by: Blackheart666
Stelek wrote:lemurking23 wrote:I don't think the list has tri-falcon equivalent setups, but I see a lot, perhaps an absurb amount, of room for generalship in this army. With deepstriking, the massive amount of good fast units (Fiends, Bloodcrushers, Mounted Daemonettes, mounted Herlad of Khorne/Slaanesh), a solid choice of MC's (if a bit overpriced, especially a flying DP), and one of the hardiest troop choices (T5 ++5 FNP), there is a whole lot of room for a better than I general to exploit.
Don't forget to field those good fast units you're going to be spending two or three (or four, or five) times what you normally do.
The best (being subjective) units cost the most money.
Blackmoor said he already has the army.
So he isn't planning on running:
Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Beast of Nurgle, Fiend of Slaanesh, Soul Grinder, Epidemius, Karanak, Skulltaker, The Masque; or any multiples of the new heralds.
Neat, so it'll be old greater demons, the regular demons, any of the old packs, and possibly converted defilers or demon princes.
My guess is 90 demonettes. Which don't do so hot against mech lists in 5th.
One of the first armies we tried, and even screened by plague bearers it was crap.
Well, if anyone is under the belief the old demons can be made into a killer army without the new releases...
you do realize that there are old Fiends of Slaanesh, Beasts of Nurgle and Bloodcrushers right?
I have 7 Realm of Chaos era Beasts of Nurgle and a bunch of Fiends from 4th ed fantasy era. no Bloodcrushers, but they're out there. I like the new ones anyway.
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Post by: Peoples Champ
For those that have brought the spearhead - what size bases are the bloodcrushers on? It looks like a 60mm from the pictures.
5655
Post by: mortal888
So the undivided greater demon was a rumor. Suck.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Stelek wrote:[
Blackmoor said he already has the army.
So he isn't planning on running:
Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Beast of Nurgle, Fiend of Slaanesh
Except for the fact that these all have older models(I have 5 of the old Fiends myself), minus the 'Letters for 'Crushers which the older letters fit on the old Juggers just fine, so he could be running them.
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