It is being reported on the rumour mill that Jervis is the latest redundancy casualty at Lenton:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141019

[edited to include the original post from warseer, who removed it. Call it "Damage control"]

Oddleg;2575514 wrote:I heard about this at SALUTE from the very lips of Rick Priestly himself.

I had staved off posting for a bit but have seen the rumours floating around other forums and felt the need.

GW have made Jervis redundant!!! OMFG!!! Just carve what's left of the heart and soul out of the company why don't you!!!

Rick and the Perry's were showing off the awesome new amercian civil war 28mm plastic perry figures. A mate of mine was there for Wargames Journal and was chatting to Rick about how he came to releasing the rules entrirely independantly of GW and GW historical.
Rick explained that as GW had disposed of JJ's services they felt entirely justified, and in fact far more stable, setting up on thier own.

I'm assuming a bean-counter decided that JJ no longer brings in the bucks for his bang??!!

Quite bizarre and interesting given that only 10 feet away John Stallard and Fat-bloke were showing off thier new 28mm plastic romans and barbarians as Warlord miniatures!!!

Obviously white dwarf ruins several months ahead but it's amazing that JJ has a battle report and standard bearer articles in there whilst no longer in GW's employ!!!!

A whole ork mob made by Phil Kelly laughs at this.







[edit]

seriously though, this isnt really good news for GW. He should have stuck with Specialist games.

This is however, good for 40K.

I dont have a phone handy at the moment, but would someone be kind enough to call GW on 0115 9140000 (+44115 9140000 outside of the UK) and ask them if this is true and let us know? That is the 'hobby specialists' number, and if they dont have a definitive answer then perhaps try warhammer world on 0115 9004177?

I doubt this- the story seems fake. If it's true, I wonder who will be the new head designer.

Proof show me some proof. This screams bogus.

I find this to be questionable in its veracity.

Wasn't he just at the last salute?

The original post is kind of incoherent about this. I am sure we will know for sure shortly though.

Sounds like a prank on all the rabid 'JJ haters' that infest 40k internet forums.

Yeah, its quite common to mistake founded criticism for hate.

Hellfury wrote:Yeah, its quite common to mistake founded criticism for hate.

You seem wound up a bit tightly. It's obvious what I mean.

There's no link to anything. Someone link me to a memo, a "bonafide" interview, something. Else this is someone on Warseer trolling horse .
This screams prank.

This is a shame if it's true. Soon all the old school will have died out and we will be left with the new breed of GW staff.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Yeah, its quite common to mistake founded criticism for hate.

You seem wound up a bit tightly. It's obvious what I mean.

Its also obvious that you're a flame baiting troll.

Welcome to the iggy bin.

Could be true, could be a load of hogwash. Time will tell.

May is the time when GW tend to make their redundancies though. It's the final month of their financial year, and if things are going bad (like they have for the last 3 years) they have to demonstrate to the shareholders that they are making savings.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:This is a shame if it's true. Soon all the old school will have died out and we will be left with the new breed of GW staff.

Do they care about writing clear, concise, fun rules? If so, bring'em on!

Lovely.

Boy, I hope this is true.

I know at least a few GW posters post here officially. Can anyone confirm/deny this rumor? If its false I'd like to nip it in the bud.

This would strike me as very odd of GW to do. I'll wager one space marine's worth of bits off the sprue that this is false!

jfrazell wrote:I know at least a few GW posters post here officially. Can anyone confirm/deny this rumor? If its false I'd like to nip it in the bud.

I saw dave taylor browsing the aforementioned thread on warseer (little lurking list on the bottom), but no comments anywhere so far.

Interesting that. These things can impact stock price so it should be nipped quickly, if inaccurate.

If accurate that whole "all your codexes will be supported thing" is likely out the window.

I'll file this under "Important if true".

Hellfury wrote:

jfrazell wrote:I know at least a few GW posters post here officially. Can anyone confirm/deny this rumor? If its false I'd like to nip it in the bud.

I saw dave taylor browsing the aforementioned thread on warseer (little lurking list on the bottom), but no comments anywhere so far.

If they know anything, and it's true, they're probably not at liberty to say.

Considering this is happening (again if true) right before the launch of 5th ed., his baby...Although Andy Chambers left just before 4th, didn't he? Or am I making things up again.

Right, but if they know anything and its false, it should be dispelled to avoid a stock hit.

syr8766 wrote:Considering this is happening (again if true) right before the launch of 5th ed., his baby...Although Andy Chambers left just before 4th, didn't he? Or am I making things up again.

Nope, thats exactly what happened.

GW have a policy of never commenting on staff who have left. Its sound normal practice. They may deny a false rumour though if one exists.

Well maybe there is hope for 40k after all...if this rumor is true.

I think they got the wrong month for april fools...

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Well maybe there is hope for 40k after all...if this rumor is true.

If true, it won't have much effect for another year or two, just like when Chambers left.

Maybe he chose to leave because he wanted to spend more time with his so-

Nope. Wait. Sorry. Not even I can go that far...

BYE

Looking at that Warlords Games site, it seems that Jervis Johnson did have a major part in the writing of Black Powder. So that part of the original rumour stacks up. The Warhammer Ancient Battles rules were written largely by JJ, so he seemed to work well with them, so a decision to go to another publisher for Black Powder must mean something. And nothing to the good of GW.

Good? Bad? It really depends. Isn't he the main driving force behind 40k 5.0 now? Most I have heard about it I like so far, so it could be bad. Who knows....

And really there isn't much conflict there. If you look at the rules and such for Black Powder it is very free flow. No lists and a very wide open system. Not much that GW would probably want, even in Historicals. Pretty much something these guys sit down and play for fun put into book form.

I too have my doubts about the, "veracity," of this claim, as Hellfury put it.

I mean, how can you believe this guy? He ended almost every sentence with multiple exclamation marks!!!

True or not, I don't think this is the end of the world (or even GW).

JJ has been at GW for a long, long time and I'm sure he was earning a lot more than any of the junior design staff. The company has been mandated from on high to cut costs and many of the old timers left graciously to help the company cut costs (John Stallard fired himself). Knowing how BoD’s tend to see thing, I have no doubt that JJ was viewed as liability.
If JJ is leaving, then I’m sure he’s doing it on his own terms. 20+ years of game development looks pretty good on a application for a job in the multi-billion dollar video game industry. VG companies have a lot more cash to throw around than a toy soldier manufacturer ever will. I’m sure Andy Chambers is regretting leaving GW every time he looks at his paycheque from Blizzard.

I have had the opportunity to speak with the man on several occasions and he always struck me as a guy who really loves what he does. 40k and WHFB will go on. JJ gave us some of the best GW games ever. Blood Bowl will stand IMO as the best of the best. His impact on my hobby is immeasurable. I wish him the best in whatever quest he sets himself on next.


Dosadi

I don't think it's true, isn't he the writer of the new SM codex?

Dosadi wrote:True or not, I don't think this is the end of the world (or even GW).

JJ has been at GW for a long, long time...

I have had the opportunity to speak with the man on several occasions and he always struck me as a guy who really loves what he does. 40k and WHFB will go on. JJ gave us some of the best GW games ever. Blood Bowl will stand IMO as the best of the best. His impact on my hobby is immeasurable. I wish him the best in whatever quest he sets himself on next.


Dosadi

True

It's another blow for 40k though, one it really didn't need. If this rumour is true I expect 40k's 5th edition cycle to follow 4th's, a dire situation indeed.

I don't really like the direction JJ has taken 40k, mainly because of the bland codexs the streamlining causes, however with 5th edition 2 months out, i would much prefer all the codex's get the streamlining bland flavor for balance reason. If JJ is leaveing the sm and space wolf codexs will get the streamlining and maybe DE but after that all bets are off. This could lead to the issue that happened in late 3rd where you had the very bland marine list compared to the 3.5 chaos codex.

However if he is leaving I would love to see Phil Kelly take his place has he seems to be the only person who can write a 40k codex to save his life.

Not sure if Orks is really a "good" codex. There are still very kneejerk options and a lot of stuff that will do nothing.

Is good having a few units that do well, a unit (lootas) that are just plain amazing, and the rest that will hardly be taken in any competitive game by a competent opponent?

Narlix wrote:I don't really like the direction JJ has taken 40k, mainly because of the bland codexs the streamlining causes.

Agreed, but jj seems to still be in place as a post later in the warseer thread points out that he is still a guest at one of the upcoming Game Days.

Hellfury wrote:

syr8766 wrote:Considering this is happening (again if true) right before the launch of 5th ed., his baby...Although Andy Chambers left just before 4th, didn't he? Or am I making things up again.

Nope, thats exactly what happened.

Huh.

Soo... do we have any confirmation yet?

The Warseer Inquisition has removed the original thread on their forum away from public viewing, which could be taken to mean they have confirmed it as a fake. Or maybe not, you never know with those guys. They treat moderating that place like it's the bleedin' Freemasons.

Hmm. Interesting rumor, and I agree it's probably shaky at best at this point.

As much as JJ gets made fun of around here (and I'm as guilty as anyone else), he's done a lot of good things for Specialist Games, and I do think he means well for 40k, even if some of us have mixed feelings regarding his chosen methods.

I think it would be generally unfortunate for GW if they let him go. And even if they did, just because he's gone, there's no guarantee 40k would improve (and personally I think it'd be more likely to get worse).

As to 5th edition, I'm not passing judgment until after it's released. I do have some optimistic hopes at this point, though.

JJ has done a lot of good things for GW, just not too many related to writing a Codex for 40K.

I actually hope it isn't true, but if it is, I hope this means that the 5th edition SM Codex has escaped his clutches...

JJ was great for specialist games, JJ wasnt as good when it came to codexi.

Necros wrote:I think they got the wrong month for april fools...

Actually, in 5th edition it's now May Fools Day. They so NERFED my fools pranks too. Idiots.

I am pretty sure it is a false rumour. On the Warseer thread the gentlemen who actually had the conversation indicated his friend who posted had it wrong and was talking out of his ***.

CB

When was the last time someone high profile was sacked from GW?

From memory everyone who left jumped ship.
Only one I'm not sure of was Toumas Piren and he was one of their better games designers... Morheim was tops.

His name is Tuomas Pirinen, and he was also responsible for revamping WHFB.

He wasn't sacked, he quit GW because the pay sucked and the prospects weren't good.

"the thread quoted from WarSeer was removed when the Wargames Journal Editor who is cited as a source indicated that Oddleg was making it up."

Seems pretty unlikely now. Papa blood bowl will be with us for some time! (And a good thing too, in my opinion)

delete

All I can say is...

HELL YEAH BABY!!!



G

what grand news this is (if it is true),

i wonder if LATD will make a comeback???

For those who choose not to read it:

This rumor is false. The source from the Wargamer journal mentioned in the original post has denied the story, which is why the thread was deleted from Warseer.

Lord Lankington wrote:
what grand news this is (if it is true),

i wonder if LATD will make a comeback???

Yes. Jervis hates the LatD and that's why his being fired would suddenly make a whole bunch of openings in the GW miniature line to be filled by new LatD models. C'mon now.

I know this is quite off topic but Fullheadofhair's squirrel is ace!

yakface wrote:This rumor is false.

Ah-ha! What did I tell you?! You can't trust a man that uses that many exclamation marks!

I find it funny that everyone seems to want the person who gave us Nidzilla and Flying Circus armies to be the one to inherit the title of Overfiend.

Now, I like Phil Kelly. I really do. He seems to understand game balance more than anyone since Andy Chambers.

But his recent track record makes me wonder if he's been possessed by Gavin Thorpe's ghost...except that Gav Thorpe is still alive.

bigchris1313 wrote:

yakface wrote:This rumor is false.

Ah-ha! What did I tell you?! You can't trust a man that uses that many exclamation marks!

Quoted for truth

I want to break this down real simple for everyone. I understand why people like JJ, and then I also understand why people hate him. I'm 19 and only been playing 40K for like 2-3 years. I got into the game because of the artwork and the models. I was only playing for a few months when they released the new Nid codex and models. To see the old ones transform from the bettle looking Carnifexs' to the Dino-thrashing about monsters just made me want to play more.

As a young player, that's what you want. You want to see change, but only with improvements. JJ is taking away alot of the things that make the different armies unique. I dont know if him leaving would fix this, but as a whole, GW should try and find a way to correct these problems. I'm sure JJ means well. I doubt he's sitting in a cube thinking of how he can p*** off other players.

Everyone wants to see better improvements, as do I. All you can do is wait and see what happens. GW may never get it right. Then again, they might... Who knows.. I'm still waiting to see 5th ed and the new Daemons codex before I decide to continue playing or not...

Let's start a petition. There is a legion waiting to bring about his demise.

G

And thus destroy 40k for good

As somebody who has been very critical of Jervis of late, I really don't think him getting canned is the right answer. I just think he should be focused on fluff, on rallying up support for the hobby, etc.

I also feel like people are overestimating how mercenary GW is with staff. Perhaps with lower level folks there are layoffs, but I don't think this is a place where recognizable names are gonna get axed. Seems more like people leave on their own.

I've lost count, how many chickens are supposed to hatch now?

I think it is amusing to watch those who want "improvements" (to their lists), but decry Codex Creep (for "improvements" other lists).

Personally, I like Jervis precisely because he's cleaning things up and making the necessary changes to transform the game without sending us into unstoppable Codex Creep.

Aaaand, just to put this rumor completely to rest, from the SG website:

Once again Warhammer World will be hosting The Blood Bowl this weekend. Coaches from all over the world will be gathering to decide which team is the best at the year's most prodigious Blood Bowl event. The guys from Cyanide Studios will also be in attendance showing a sneak peak at the forthcoming Blood Bowl computer game.

Jervis will also be popping in to say hello (rumours of his demise have been greatly exaggerated ;-).

For now,
Andy @ Fanatic

Silverwarrior88 wrote:JJ is taking away alot of the things that make the different armies unique.

Name one.

Let's see, how about I use the CSM codex for examples?

Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Darrian

Darrian13 wrote:Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Don't forget daemons that aren't generic.

BYE

You forget wargear. There really isn't any. Item descriptions=not a wargear list.

You also forget being lead by a greater demon.

Possessed that do what you want.

I could go on, but why bother? Fanbois are just that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think it is amusing to watch those who want "improvements" (to their lists), but decry Codex Creep (for "improvements" other lists).

Personally, I like Jervis precisely because he's cleaning things up and making the necessary changes to transform the game without sending us into unstoppable Codex Creep.

Quoted for truth.

Salvation122 wrote:

Silverwarrior88 wrote:JJ is taking away alot of the things that make the different armies unique.

Name one.

Seriously?

The guy is a liability to the company, but if he were being fired, a duche like oddlegg1234 would be the last one you would here it from.

I don't care if he is a nice guy, is a sweetheart to talk to, or if he can walk on water with no legs.

Jervis is a figurhead and a source of great amusement as he thrashes around in his own feces of what has become of 40K as of late.

As for him doing anything good or bad, all you need to do is to go look at the different codex's and see how they have turned t crap from the beginning till now.

You can relax, he gets a buy on the axing... for now.

Nessessary is a loose term when you talk about 40k. I have alot of crap that has been coded " unplayable" laying waste in a back room that was... " Nessessary."

As for being an " asset to the game, a legend, and all that..."
He is a cog in a machine. His job is to be a face to p)(* and moan to, ask alot of questions, and get a sympathetic smile, a nod, or a BS answer.

He will stay around until his usefulness runs out and then he gets the door to make way for the next brush cleaner. Maybe someone with some talent, or can actually write something that will benefit the game instead of thier own little ego.

As long as his kid got the pictures of the gear in the books, then it is all that matters. Nevermind that the equipment doesn't have a use in the game, the wargear is gone, and X cant use Y anymore.

Darrian13 wrote:Let's see, how about I use the CSM codex for examples?

Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Darrian

So what you're complaining about is the loss of the "codex creep" from the 2nd ed chaos codex to the 4th edition codex.

Legion specific rules didn't appear till late 3rd/4th edition. Veteran skills in the 2nd ed codex included all of Infiltrate for Veteran Squads.

The only thing that has been truly "lost" is the god-specific daemons, and wargear. Even in the 2nd ed codex, there weren't rules for the Legions, nor the first 3rd edition codex. They each had a half page fluff section, and you painted your models to match.

As a 2nd -> 5th ed chaos player, I'm not feeling the chicken little mentatlity going on about chaos. As was mentioned, all of the codexes are being "reset" at a more baseline level. I'm fine with that. There isn't a model in my collection that I can't use under the current rules (and I'm not saying it might not suck - dreads, possessed), but I can.

Flipping through the 2nd ed dex, man, that was some good stuff. The writing was interesting, fun, and it had cultist and daemon world lists in the back. THAT is how a codex should be written.

Cruentus wrote:Legion specific rules didn't appear till late 3rd/4th edition. Veteran skills in the 2nd ed codex included all of Infiltrate for Veteran Squads.

Legion-specific rules appeared in WD articles, fairly early in 3rd edition. Not coincidentally, that's when I started with Chaos.

There isn't a model in my collection that I can't use under the current rules (and I'm not saying it might not suck - dreads, possessed), but I can.

Bully for you. Me, I've got a whole lot of mounted daemonettes and Terminators with sonic weaponry who have no place in the current CSM codex. And never mind anyone who had modeled up cultists....

The biggest complaint is the loss of choice and options.

Yes, many of the options in the previous codex were too good/underpriced, but after several years of play, it would not exactly have been difficult to cut one or two minor things that didn't affect your models (*cough* Siren *cough*), and to simply tweak the point costs and organization of a few other things. If you cost things appropriately, balance is restored without sacrificing flexibility and making people's armies and units illegal.

Darrian13 wrote:Let's see, how about I use the CSM codex for examples?

Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Darrian

Jervis did not write the Chaos Space Marine codex. Jervis only provided the framework of how codices should be written, yet Phil wrote the Ork codex under the same guidelines and most people don't hate that book.

If you don't like the CSM codex you have to blame Alessio and Gav, not Jervis.

To quote myself from a different thread (or more accurately, cut and paste my own comments):

It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people bemoan the new C:CSM. Its a good book, more balanced than v3.5 C:CSM, and while written with renegades/Black Legion in mind, still allows the vast majority of fluff and background to be represented. I'm a Nurgle boy to the marrow of my bones, and sure I miss my demons, but the new book is still very strong. There isn't a single model from my 3.5 version of my army that I can't use.

Sure, I feel for the IW players that can't use a basilisk anymore, or alpha legion players that can't use their cultists anymore. But I sure as hell don't blame GW for "ruining a good thing." The 3.5 codex was broken. It was overpowered. It gave new life to Herohammer in a game when most people agreed that Herohammer had to go away. You want someone to blame for your goodies being taken away? Talk to the mirror.

It's our fault, collectively as Chaos players, that we lost the awesomeness. Everytime someone put an infiltrating Nurgle Speed Lieutenant with a manreaper on the table, we brought ourselves closer to losing it. Every Iron Warriors player with 4 pie plates and 9 Obliterators, every Word Bearers army that Deployed 1 model in the deployment phase, every Slaanesh player who spent 350 points to make an unkillable Siren Prince helped to kill the 3.5 codex.

"But it was GWs fault for not playtesting their source material" doesn't work as an excuse anymore, either. Any time that someone complained about the nigh-untouchable, not to mention unkillable, Siren Prince, either on a forum or in conversations in person, the excuse I've always heard was "Its legal so I'm using it. Blame GW for not playtesting..." In my observations, those tend to be the same people who always bemoan GW for "not listening to the customers." Ironically, they were wrong. GW did listen. They heard what we had to say about the brokenness of the 3.5 C:CSM, they observed for themselves, and they fixed the problems. GW puts minor psychic powers in the Chaos list to add character, players abuse said powers, players loose said powers in the next edition. GW gives us demonic talents, veteran skills, unique force organization charts, players abuse the Nurgle out of them, and we're shocked they got nerfed?

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C:CSM is a very good book.

As for the loss of the wargear page, thats not an issue with the new codex per se, but rather an issue of the new organisation and style of codexes... one which I firmly support because it addresses those areas of the game that players CONSTANTLY exploited.

With the exception of the basilisk for IW players (and again, I feel for you that you lost your model, that's the one point I concede on the book changeover) and cultists I challenge anyone to give an example of an option they lost thats not in the book. I guarantee I will be able to prove its unbalanced brokenness or find a way to do it in the new C:CSM as good or better.

yakface wrote:If you don't like the CSM codex you have to blame Alessio and Gav, not Jervis.

Alessio Cavatore: the same man responsible for the awesome yet grossly overpowered VC army book. Hmm.

Actually, if one(or two) of the sub guys screw up. Their boss is responsible also, so lets burn them all at the stakes.

Deathgod: Well said. I agree.

Death, your entire post is tripe.

It is amusing, but it's still pointless tripe.

You haven't even come close to the real reason the Codex was effectively killed.

Why's that Stelek?

While I agree that, if intended to represent true Renegades as some people claim, it does fail (no speeders, no assault cannons for instance), if you're going to complain about the daemons, remember it's codex Chaos Space Marines.
Though there is some stuff I've seen people complain about (like the daemon weapons being a double-edged blade, lack of customization for the DP), I for one like the essence of the book.
Take, for example, Word Bearers : IMHO, it makes a lot more sense that they summon generic daemons rather than Khorne, or Slaanesh.

Good post, Deathgod. An enjoyable read that doesn't rely on trashing or the audience to make it's point.

Destrado wrote:Why's that Stelek?

While I agree that, if intended to represent true Renegades as some people claim, it does fail (no speeders, no assault cannons for instance), if you're going to complain about the daemons, remember it's codex Chaos Space Marines.
Though there is some stuff I've seen people complain about (like the daemon weapons being a double-edged blade, lack of customization for the DP), I for one like the essence of the book.
Take, for example, Word Bearers : IMHO, it makes a lot more sense that they summon generic daemons rather than Khorne, or Slaanesh.

Good post, Deathgod. An enjoyable read that doesn't rely on trashing or the audience to make it's point.

Deathgod wrote:

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C:CSM is a very good book.

Riiiight...

Anyone who liked the old and doesn't like the new CSM codex can't possibly be offended by that post at all!

Cruentus wrote:Legion specific rules didn't appear till late 3rd/4th edition.

That's funny. I could've sworn my ancient copy of Realms of Chaos had Black Legion, World Eater and Emperor's Children lists in there. Certainly different to what we have (or had) today, but they were there.

Maybe I was mistaken?

BYE

DeathGod wrote:It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people bemoan the new C:CSM.

It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people defend the new C:CSM. Specifically, how they often jump straight to the 'The old one was broken' routine and then tout out the 'This one is more balanced' and/or 'It's still a good book/competative list' arguments.

What find funny about that is that they're often arguing against an argument no one has made. The main reason people hate the new CSM - as I have been saying since day one, since my review that had to've come close to starting Dakka's biggest thread - is that the power, the balance and the competativeness of a list is meaningless, if the book itself is boring.

I couldn't care less if the new Codex lost all the time to the pathetic Dark Angel Codex, or was the most broken or unbalanced Codex this side of the moon - the book is boring. It's dull. It has no life, no energy, All the options - the flavour and colour - were removed. Entire sub-lists were removed, no matter how broken (Iron Warriors) or pathetic (1KSons) they were.

I may have been quite vocal for my dislike of Pete 'Page 41' Haines, and some of the balls-to-the-wall idiotic choices he made, but like with everything at GW, they often (or, when Andy C was there, did) have great concepts, but bad execution. Straight from Haine's mouth:

"The Codex formalises the idea that there are nine entirely different Chaos Legions, each with their own strengths and weaknesses rather than a single polyglot force."

That's Chaos. Many different forces, facets, factions - not one single list to rule them all.

So please, next time you go out to defend the Chaos Codex, and bitch about those of us who don't like it because it's 'not powerful enough', stop to think of the actual reasons why we're complaining.

BYE

Alpharius wrote:

Riiiight...

Anyone who liked the old and doesn't like the new CSM codex can't possibly be offended by that post at all!

Agreed. I loved the 3.5 book. I was able to play some really enjoyable competitive and distinct Chaos Marine armies without ever using a siren prince, without ever playing demon bomb, without running multiple pie plates and yet here I am with a converted up Basilisk that serves as a spiky paperweight, a bunch of Plaguebearers, nurglings, bloodletters and a bloodthirsters that are complete chaff under the current book, and some necromunda gangers turned cultists that are also essentially paperweights (and thank goodness I never bothered to put a Lost and the Damned list together). The new Chaos Codex with its complete lack of flavor and options is just a pale shadow of its predecessor. Thanks for nothing games workshop.

I do understand that the 3.5 book was open to abuse and I have certainly played against some of the abusive armies from that book (it had some totally useless stuff too ...such as thousand sons). It did need change. However, it didn't need to be gutted. Even the original 3rd ed Chaos book (all 48 pages of it) had a rules for making god specific demons.

Hot damn my user title is awesome.

BYE

Alpharius wrote:
Deathgod wrote:

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C:CSM is a very good book.

Riiiight...

Anyone who liked the old and doesn't like the new CSM codex can't possibly be offended by that post at all!

Yeah, because my sympathies reside with rules-abusers. And since no-one in this whole site claims to be a rules abuser like Deathgod said, my point still stands true.

It is his point, and I found it to be a good one. I think quite the opposite of HMBC, in that I'd rather have a boring book and make up for it with my own army selection - painting skills, conversions, etc., rather than having a poorly balanced book that allowed "true" Iron Warriors army to be fielded because the extra slot made all the difference. Note that I'm not having a go at anyone who now has a Bassie "paperweight".

When I think of bad rules and fluff, I think of how nearly every Crimson Fists army plays like it's been 3 months since Rynn's, how every Night Lord army is fast-attack based (yeah, since terror troops means lots of bikes and raptors and the occasional Daemon Prince) and how Blood Angels went from hiding a flaw to rivalling Khorne Berzerkers. Or Eldar armies with more Guardians than Boyz in some Ork armies. Or the surprising number of MC's the hive mind has churned out.

Flavour all the way. Though I think that Chosen are rather dull, I think the rest of the Codex isn't. Sure, it isn't spectacular like the new Ork 'dex, but still a solid book.

Destrado wrote:While I agree that, if intended to represent true Renegades as some people claim, it does fail (no speeders, no assault cannons for instance)

This is a great point and one that I don't really see brought up a whole lot. Why is it that when a post-heresy space marine chapter goes renegade they all of a sudden sprout an armoury of pre-heresy equipment? Where are all the reaper autocannons coming from? I'm actually glad kind of glad that this is never explained since I can't imagine their explanation would be any good and they've already taken a big enough dump on the fluff with this new codex without pulling more crap out of their asses.

Sure, the designers talk a good game about focusing on renegades, but this codex actually does quite a piss-poor job of it. Just because it's bad at representing the Chaos legions doesn't mean it's good at representing Chaos renegades. In fact the new codex is pretty much bad at representing anything except Black Legion. On the other hand, if this is Codex: Black Legion what the hell are the Thousand Sons doing in it? Sure a Black Legion force might have a few squads of Thousand Sons allied to it but aren't we supposed to use Apocalypse if we want allies? Oh wait, I forgot - they wrote some new crap fluff about how the Black Legion now has Thousand Sons and Death Guard and Emperor's Children and World Eaters in it.

And this is really what pisses me off the most about the new codex. They run roughshod over the fluff in a sad attempt to justify shoehorning the legions into this single bland ruleset. This is especially evident in the "Armies of Chaos" section - just look at the captions for the pictures of the DG, WE, EC, and TS models:

Plague Marines will "fight alongside renegades and Traitor legionnaires all across the galaxy."
Berserkers will "fight wherever there is blood to be spilt."
Noise Marines often "fight alongside other Chaos forces."
Thousand Sons fight "in the service of many masters."

Well gee, do they ever fight alongside their own kind or are they all just mercenaries now?

And look at the obvious concerted effort they've made to mix up groups of CSM from different legions/chapters in the pictures. We see Black Legion with World Eaters; Red Corsairs with Death Guard, The Purged, and Black Legion; Black Legion with Word Bearers and Night Lords. It's almost as if they were consciously trying to "break up" the legions while proclaiming that from now on Chaos forces are supposed to be a mish-mash of units painted in every color of the rainbow. Lame.

CSM: is for the marines. I agree that the lack of other wargear is kinda crappy.. but what did you expect?? We still have dex's floating around from 5-11 years ago. GW wont put that much effort into anything... that's the problem.

Dont blame the writers, blame the guidelines they are following.... GW is not going to stop.. I hate to say this, but if you hate it so bad, then stop playing...

5th ed is on it's way, so is codex SM and soon after that the SW... so let's wait to see how they make those dex's the greatest and watch as everyone runs to the hobby shop to blow money on the new marines and their bright new toys..

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This is a great point and one that I don't really see brought up a whole lot. Why is it that when a post-heresy space marine chapter goes renegade they all of a sudden sprout an armoury of pre-heresy equipment? Where are all the reaper autocannons coming from? I'm actually glad kind of glad that this is never explained since I can't imagine their explanation would be any good and they've already taken a big enough dump on the fluff with this new codex without pulling more crap out of their asses.

I was going to answer myself and say that Renegades ought to be represented by C: SM anyway.

It's up to the player to say how much of an army list he wants to use - sometimes it's hard not to give in to certain choices, true, but you only have to play Night Lords if you want to. Nobody's saying you can't have a Daemon Prince in with your dark blue with lightning Chaos Space Marines (sorry I had to come back to this as it's a prime example in my case).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Sure, the designers talk a good game about focusing on renegades, but this codex actually does quite a piss-poor job of it. Just because it's bad at representing the Chaos legions doesn't mean it's good at representing Chaos renegades. In fact the new codex is pretty much bad at representing anything except Black Legion. On the other hand, if this is Codex: Black Legion what the hell are the Thousand Sons doing in it? Sure a Black Legion force might have a few squads of Thousand Sons allied to it but aren't we supposed to use Apocalypse if we want allies? Oh wait, I forgot - they wrote some new crap fluff about how the Black Legion now has Thousand Sons and Death Guard and Emperor's Children and World Eaters in it.

Fair point. I think it was a mistake to try to label it as Renegade too in order to say that it doesn't only represent one Legion (IMO it also serves for the others except the more, hem, specific legions). Though I thought that it isn't inconceivable to have troops from one Legion mixed up with another. Especially considering how many Black Crusades there were. I think that the only CSM that can't be explained "outside" as belonging to another Legion are the Thousand Sons because of their obvious fluff. The others I see as the glorified champions standing above the icon-carrying squads who haven't proven themselves worthy of the favours of their patron god.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And look at the obvious concerted effort they've made to mix up groups of CSM from different legions/chapters in the pictures. We see Black Legion with World Eaters; Red Corsairs with Death Guard, The Purged, and Black Legion; Black Legion with Word Bearers and Night Lords. It's almost as if they were consciously trying to "break up" the legions while proclaiming that from now on Chaos forces are supposed to be a mish-mash of units painted in every color of the rainbow. Lame.

Another fair point. I think that the only Marine army where this would look good would be a Crusading army with squads from different Chapters banding together - at least in 2nd edition it was not frowned upon

Though I think that they did that just so they could show all the miniatures and I don't think they were trying to get people to paint armies like that... I think that most of the Legions would fight together only on equal terms - i.e. each half an army, in case the other part turns it's weapons in their direction. That or in really small squads, like a Sorcerer leading his troops to accompany or supervise a Lord on a mission.

But maybe that's just my imagination that's a bit too fertile

O.T. Anyway, I enjoyed reading your post too, it was a nice and welcome departure from what I had gotten used to from you. which, odd as it may sound, is intended as a compliment. Embarrassing as it may be for me.

*ahem*

What? It's not as if I'm commenting on how sexy his avatar is, or something. There's nothing sexy in a Gary Morley miniature

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
And look at the obvious concerted effort they've made to mix up groups of CSM from different legions/chapters in the pictures. We see Black Legion with World Eaters; Red Corsairs with Death Guard, The Purged, and Black Legion; Black Legion with Word Bearers and Night Lords. It's almost as if they were consciously trying to "break up" the legions while proclaiming that from now on Chaos forces are supposed to be a mish-mash of units painted in every color of the rainbow. Lame.

/grab key ring out of pocket
/hold key ring in the air and shake vigorously
/put king ring back in pocket

Sorry, I have to call shenannigans on this one. I have the last three Chaos codexes on my desk as I'm typing this. They ALL have pictures and art that are "mish-mash" armies. Slaanesh demons and marines with Khornate. Death Guard with Black Legion. Thousand Sons with Slaanesh and Black Legion. The 3rd edition book doesn't seem to have ANY pictures or art or army lists that I see that represent only one legion, except Black Legion (pictures that have a tad of EVERYthing...). I was reading an old White Dwarf yesterday, somewhere in the 250s iirc, while sitting on the *ahem* library *ahem*, and there was an army list with Ahriman leading it and NO thousand sons.

The main representation of CSM has ALWAY been the Black Legion approach - a hefty mix of a little bit of everything with alot of cheese tossed in. The latest book changes nothing along the lines of how Chaos is generally represented - except the degree of fromundazation of your army list.

For those complaining about how their "fluff was stolen" etc, or the book being boring...
There is absolutely NO reason you can't play any of the legions in the new C:CSM. OMG, so you have to use a little thought and modeling skill to represent something you read in a book once. Since when has that been the death of anyone's hobby? Maybe you need to adapt to new organizational charts, IW players, or learn to deal without your infiltrating cultists summoning 4 demon pacts on turn 2 with immediately assault your enemies battle line Alpha Legion players. With the exception of Alpha Legion cultists (and then I can't remember a single bit of fluff commenting on AL cultists fighting with the Legion in battle... though there may eb something obscure, somewhere), I can't think of a single piece of chaos fluff I can't represent in the new book.

We already know your ability to think of what's wrong is extremely limited, death.

That's probably why I can't even be bothered to refute your "points".

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You do it yourself as you speak.

Please expalin how the obvious nerf of demons to support a "demons" book (wait...wait...who was clamoring for that in 40K?) was seen through by the players?

Let me see...yep, still 204 boxed sets for the failed army available in the US store. /clap

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

Oh right, some bull about how the new CSM codex is awesome.

Gee, it's so good sales of ALL csm are flatlining.

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You sound like a smurf player who got his milk spilled by chaos one too many times (or indeed, every time) and I think if you, Jervis, and JohnWhang all got together with BaskinRobbins you'd deliver a whopping vanilla and call it 41 flavors.

Way to derail a thread, by the way.

Personally I can't wait for Jervis to be released, leave, be fired, made reduntant, whatever. Toss in Alessio (gee, musical instruments in 40K? holy crap what a tard idea) and I'll call it a miracle.

Stelek wrote:"demons" book (wait...wait...who was clamoring for that in 40K?)

(Raises hand. Looks around nervously. Hides.)

Way to derail a thread, by the way.

This thread was useless from the moment of its inception. Why not let it become another Chaos whinge-fest?

Personally I can't wait for Jervis to be released, leave, be fired, made reduntant, whatever. Toss in Alessio (gee, musical instruments in 40K? holy crap what a tard idea) and I'll call it a miracle.

Jervis is on my very short list of GW employees who are of any interest to me, so I have to say that I'd be disappointed if he left the company. I think he's a good game designer. I don't always agree with his choices, but I think he has a lot of good ideas.

You should get out and meet more game designers.

Grot 6 wrote:The guy is a liability to the company, but if he were being fired, a duche like oddlegg1234 would be the last one you would here it from.

I don't care if he is a nice guy, is a sweetheart to talk to, or if he can walk on water with no legs.

Jervis is a figurhead and a source of great amusement as he thrashes around in his own feces of what has become of 40K as of late.

Speaking of feces, its these type of postings that give Dakka a bad name.

yakface wrote:Jervis did not write the Chaos Space Marine codex. Jervis only provided the framework of how codices should be written, yet Phil wrote the Ork codex under the same guidelines and most people don't hate that book.

If you don't like the CSM codex you have to blame Alessio and Gav, not Jervis.

You nailed it with that one, Yak.

IMO, what we're seeing is that some members of the studio work better within their given constraints than others. Typos aside, I think the Ork codex is a good one -- flavorful, strong in gameplay and simply a good read -- and that codex was written under the same framework as Codex: CSMs.

Maybe some of the negativity to CSMs was inevitable given that they were trying to streamline a very complicated and dense army list. Some players were bound to be put off by that. On the other hand, I think it might have been better received if it gave players a new or fresh look at Chaos. Saying it has a new focus on renegades is disingenous, as you could build renegade armies perfectly well under the old codex. I think players feel that they received exactly what they had before, but less of it, and that seems like a recipe for unhappy customers no matter what you're selling.

Stelek wrote:We already know your ability to think of what's wrong is extremely limited, death.

That's probably why I can't even be bothered to refute your "points".

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You do it yourself as you speak.

Please expalin how the obvious nerf of demons to support a "demons" book (wait...wait...who was clamoring for that in 40K?) was seen through by the players?

Let me see...yep, still 204 boxed sets for the failed army available in the US store. /clap

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

Oh right, some bull about how the new CSM codex is awesome.

Gee, it's so good sales of ALL csm are flatlining.

Sorry, was there a point you were making?

You sound like a smurf player who got his milk spilled by chaos one too many times (or indeed, every time) and I think if you, Jervis, and JohnWhang all got together with BaskinRobbins you'd deliver a whopping vanilla and call it 41 flavors.

Way to derail a thread, by the way.

Personally I can't wait for Jervis to be released, leave, be fired, made reduntant, whatever. Toss in Alessio (gee, musical instruments in 40K? holy crap what a tard idea) and I'll call it a miracle.

This may sound awkward, but if you're not going to bother refuting his posts, why post in such an aggressive manner? He likes it, explained why, even if I didn't like that I'd respect it. That and your thing with mocking and insulting. This isn't the Jerry Springer show, the only one leaving a bad image here is you. If you presented your arguments in a concise manner, I might've been able to make sense out of what you're saying.

Yeah, way to derail a thread

And how long has it been since the Codex came out? You make it sound as if 204 boxed sets are that much.

I replied in kind.

My image? lol

Most new Codices sell out to presales, oh and hey welcome to 40k sales...or the lack thereof.

No, you didn't.

It's not that I'm bothered, but I've seen better criticism from you. C'mon, even Abby posted something with head 'n' feet, you could make the effort

Seriously now, I'm going to start a Word Bearers army and I'm probably taking *gasp* Possessed and use the new Bloodletters as generic daemons.
There are no rules for a Dark Apostle, nor do I think they are needed. The only thing I am disappointed with are the Chosen, who should've been much, much more.

Anyway.

The point of this thread was long ago settled. We have spun far off topic, that and the completely uncalled for personal attacks warrant a closing of the thread.